WEBVTT
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00:00:04.417I can't remember an operational problem I came across that didn't fit one or
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00:00:05.657more of these five things.
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00:00:10.097First one is on this episode of Executive Edge, Greg is joined by Don Kiefer,
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00:00:14.317a former Harley-Davidson executive and co-creator of Dynamic Work Design.
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00:00:17.817Don reflects on his journey from the factory floor to executive leadership and
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00:00:20.637shares hard-earned insights on fixing how work really gets done.
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00:00:22.717A problem is not, I need new software.
00:00:22.957 -->
00:00:26.537The problem is objective to the work. Like we're at 45% sales.
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00:00:29.477We need to be at 65%. Dynamic work design.
00:00:29.797 -->
00:00:33.357Can you just explain what that means? Static work design, like an org chart.
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00:00:38.057An org chart, we need them, but they give you no clue as to how to do the work.
00:00:38.217 -->
00:00:41.517I met Mr. Oba and convinced him to come help me. One of the things we did just
00:00:41.517 -->
00:00:48.017as an example was we went from 120 days in 45 machines to 17 of the same machines, not new.
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00:00:51.677And you call up in the morning and it shipped in the afternoon and not from
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00:00:55.177stock. Manufacturing shipped the same day. I want to figure out how he thought.
00:00:55.397 -->
00:00:58.477I want to be able to predict the next question that I had to go figure out.
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00:01:03.117Hello and welcome to this episode of Tenzing's Executive Edge podcast.
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00:01:09.617Today, my guest is Don Kiefer. Don is a senior lecturer in operations management
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00:01:11.897at the MIT Sloan School of Management.
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00:01:16.771But before you think Don is an academic, you should know that he's a career
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00:01:20.791operations executive and co-creator of Dynamic Work Design.
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00:01:26.791Don started his professional journey running equipment and factories at the tender age of 17.
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00:01:32.351During his career, he was vice president of operational excellence at Harley-Davidson,
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00:01:33.991where he worked for 15 years.
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00:01:40.711Since 2007, Don has been advising executive teams around the globe in a range
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00:01:44.951of areas, including strategy deployment, product development,
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00:01:46.751and operational improvement.
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00:01:50.831He's worked with industries as diverse as oil and gas, medical,
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00:01:52.591biomedical, and banking.
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00:01:58.151Recently, Don co-authored the book, There's Got to Be a Better Way,
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00:02:03.711How to Deliver Results and Get Rid of the Stuff That Gets in the Way of Real Work.
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00:02:07.631Welcome, Don, and thank you for joining me on the podcast today.
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00:02:14.271Thanks, Greg. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's great to see you and to have
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00:02:16.711you on to talk about your story and the book.
00:02:16.831 -->
00:02:19.931We want to focus a lot on the principles in that book.
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00:02:22.991But let's credential you a little bit.
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00:02:29.031Let's go back. You started at 17 in a factory, obviously, then went to school
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00:02:32.451during some period of your career. But let's start from the very beginning.
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00:02:35.051What were you doing in a factory at the age of 17?
00:02:35.691 -->
00:02:39.751Well, I like to say I was too smart to go to college when I was a kid.
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00:02:42.951So I had to wait till I was married, had kids and, you know,
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00:02:45.991remodeling a house at the same time, working a full-time job.
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00:02:51.011So I went to work. I went to frontline work, a lot of it in factories and hung
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00:02:53.991out a lot of bars and had a lot of fun the first couple of years.
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00:02:59.531But, yeah, I made my living doing piecework on metal cutting lays and milling
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00:03:01.491machines, that kind of thing for a long time.
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00:03:06.611So very, very hands-on experience on the floor. Yeah. That's great.
00:03:06.971 -->
00:03:09.651Then you ended up at Harley-Davidson, right?
00:03:09.711 -->
00:03:12.771I don't want to skip over too much, but I think that's where you spent the bulk
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00:03:15.371of your career and came up with a lot of these principles.
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00:03:19.851I did. Tell us about that. I ended up going to engineering school while I was
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00:03:21.051working. It took me eight years.
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00:03:24.831And when I was finished, it was right at the time when Harley was starting to
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00:03:28.251grow and they changed the requirement for their manufacturing engineers.
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00:03:33.191They had to be degreed instead of just getting the expediters or the supervisors off the shop floor.
00:03:34.131 -->
00:03:39.311So, and it was right when they were beginning their turnaround in 1989, so it was a lot,
00:03:39.874 -->
00:03:44.954When I got to Harley, the tenure there was you're either there 20 years or 20
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00:03:49.674months because in 1985, they laid off a ton of people, almost went out of business,
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00:03:51.634and they were just starting to come back in 1989.
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00:03:56.954So I went as a manufacturing engineer, ended up as the technical leader in the
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00:04:02.514engine plant, and then later I went and led the TwinCam 88 engine project,
00:04:02.814 -->
00:04:08.774which was unusual then because mostly guys from design engineering were there.
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00:04:13.374But I kind of talked my way into doing it because I thought I had a better way to introduce products.
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00:04:17.394So I was there 15 years, did the Twin Cam project.
00:04:17.874 -->
00:04:21.734And then they said, OK, smart guy, because the engineers were actually sick
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00:04:25.914of me being around manufacturing after seven or eight years.
00:04:26.194 -->
00:04:29.954And so they put me back in back in charge of one of the engine plants and said,
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00:04:33.634OK, let's see how good you are at catching these projects and putting them into
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00:04:39.374production. And then I became the vice president of operational excellence while
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00:04:40.414I was running the engine plant.
00:04:40.594 -->
00:04:43.854So that was after Mr. Oba and a whole other story. But yeah,
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00:04:46.354when the lights really went on for me about what Toyota was doing,
00:04:46.574 -->
00:04:50.434we made a huge amount of changes to Harley, which I led.
00:04:50.554 -->
00:04:55.134And they rewarded me with it with bigger job, more work, and the same thing.
00:04:55.354 -->
00:04:56.814But that's the way it goes.
00:04:57.834 -->
00:05:02.734So you were there when Harley introduced the Toyota production system?
00:05:02.734 -->
00:05:07.154Well, we didn't really use the Toyota production system, but I met Mr.
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00:05:09.414Oba and convinced him to come help me.
00:05:09.794 -->
00:05:13.634And we started, we worked with him for about 18 months or two years.
00:05:14.134 -->
00:05:18.074And we did part ways at one point because, and this is the interesting part
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00:05:24.394about dynamic work design, because he wanted to put in all the rules and tools of Toyota.
00:05:24.894 -->
00:05:26.894And, you know, at Harley-Davidson...
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00:05:30.902You know, working with those, you know, almost everyone at Harley,
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00:05:35.302men and women who rode motorcycles and it was a steel workers plant and they
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00:05:39.462were not about to do calisthenics and, you know, do the, do all this kind of
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00:05:42.302stuff that they were doing in Toyota.
00:05:42.762 -->
00:05:46.382They, they were partners in the manufacturing, partners in the business.
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00:05:50.802They'd help save the business and they had a voice in it. So there was a certain
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00:05:52.402time when I learned a lot from them.
00:05:52.522 -->
00:05:55.502We made a huge amount of change, but there was a certain time when Mr.
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00:05:59.182Oba said, oh, you have to do this. It was more like frequent deliveries,
00:05:59.282 -->
00:06:01.862like every 10 minutes, the car's got to come around and pick up these parts
00:06:01.862 -->
00:06:04.802and go like, that might be nice at Toyota, but we don't really,
00:06:04.942 -->
00:06:05.862that's not going to help us.
00:06:05.982 -->
00:06:08.922And it's just going to tick off the operators.
00:06:09.662 -->
00:06:14.742So we're going to do something else. So I went more to a, what's the next thing that's going to help us?
00:06:14.822 -->
00:06:17.722What's the problem we're trying to solve rather than let's put in the Toyota
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00:06:19.442production system as the goal.
00:06:19.822 -->
00:06:22.982Let's make the business better. So what's the biggest problem we have to get?
00:06:22.982 -->
00:06:28.882And that was a huge pivot for me from a way from putting in the rules and tools
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00:06:32.262to like, how do we think about the work and how do we improve the business?
00:06:32.422 -->
00:06:35.322Who cares if we're lean or for dynamic work?
00:06:35.602 -->
00:06:39.222Is the business making money or people engage in the work or making progress?
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00:06:46.442That was the pivot point. So we went our ways, but he was a really interesting guy to work with.
00:06:46.602 -->
00:06:52.742Yeah, he's obviously a legend in the Toyota production system.
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00:06:55.702World if you know that system and you know well
00:06:55.702 -->
00:06:58.382known but you also when you were at harley that's when
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00:07:01.002you met the co-author of this book nelson is it
00:07:01.002 -->
00:07:04.522repenting repenting can i just tell
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00:07:08.542one story one or two stories yes but since everyone's podcast is all about his
00:07:08.542 -->
00:07:13.682stories yeah well the first time we met he comes to my office he was running
00:07:13.682 -->
00:07:16.642the toyota supplier support center at the time and he brings a couple of his
00:07:16.642 -->
00:07:22.322people with him and they came to the office after you Six or eight weeks after I talked to him,
00:07:22.522 -->
00:07:24.802and of course, part of it was Harley-Davidson.
00:07:24.922 -->
00:07:26.722That's why they came, wasn't Don Kean.
00:07:27.460 -->
00:07:30.700He comes in the office, and I start showing him a slideshow about how great
00:07:30.700 -->
00:07:33.280Harley is. You know, we're making all this money and blah, blah, blah.
00:07:33.960 -->
00:07:38.540Don Kiefer and his team are, you know, knocking the socks off all the numbers,
00:07:38.780 -->
00:07:40.760quality, safety, and cost, all of it.
00:07:41.140 -->
00:07:45.040And, you know, after like six slides, he stops and he says, Mr.
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00:07:50.640Kiefer, would you mind if we go look at the factory since you asked for my help?
00:07:50.700 -->
00:07:52.620Will we go see the factory? He's like, yeah, sure.
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00:07:56.960Greg, we took like a 25-minute walk through the factory.
00:07:57.460 -->
00:07:59.500I'm sure many people who've worked with him had this experience.
00:07:59.820 -->
00:08:02.740And of course, I'm trying to tell him all the cool stuff we're doing and all
00:08:02.740 -->
00:08:05.600the changes we make, how great we are. He's not listening to me at all.
00:08:06.040 -->
00:08:08.620He says, can we start at the shipping dock? We go to the shipping dock.
00:08:08.680 -->
00:08:12.180I'm like, who wants to see the shipping dock? Mr. Oba wants to see the shipping dock.
00:08:12.859 -->
00:08:16.639And then he gives himself a tour around the factory, and I'm kind of following him around.
00:08:16.879 -->
00:08:19.379And my employees are laughing because no one ever, you know,
00:08:19.459 -->
00:08:22.119Don never follows anyone around the factory. He's always leading truck.
00:08:22.359 -->
00:08:25.479But here's this Japanese guy dragging him around the factory.
00:08:25.979 -->
00:08:32.119After like 25 minutes, Greg, he stops, he turns, and he takes off and goes back up to my office.
00:08:32.159 -->
00:08:34.739And I'm like, oh, I guess I better, I should probably follow him.
00:08:34.879 -->
00:08:37.439He goes to my whiteboard, which I love my whiteboard.
00:08:37.859 -->
00:08:41.779And he draws a, he makes a diagram of the factory, and he does the whole layout
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00:08:44.599of the factory. Okay, here's the steel machining, here's the aluminum machining,
00:08:44.739 -->
00:08:46.959here's the assembly line, here's the flows.
00:08:47.519 -->
00:08:52.939And he says, Mr. Kiefer, I think this is what I observed in your factory. Is that correct?
00:08:53.059 -->
00:08:56.319I go, yeah, that's pretty good for a 20-minute walk through the factory.
00:08:57.679 -->
00:09:02.599He makes a circle around the assembly line, and he puts a little note on there.
00:09:02.679 -->
00:09:07.199And he says, Mr. Kiefer, please make this change, and then call me when you've
00:09:07.199 -->
00:09:09.839done it, and I'll come back and tell you what to do next.
00:09:10.459 -->
00:09:13.819And i go like well wait a minute not not
00:09:13.819 -->
00:09:18.499i'm thinking i don't take orders i i mean i'm giving orders i'm the i'm the
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00:09:21.299problem solver i'm the guy that's how i got this job from being on the shop
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00:09:25.719floor to the general manager vice president i fixed things i figured out i'm
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00:09:29.339not doing something without understanding why so so i said and he gets up to
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00:09:32.339leave i said oh mr mr well wait a minute,
00:09:32.799 -->
00:09:37.799and i start asking the questions that you would ask like of a of a consultant
00:09:37.799 -->
00:09:39.839like how much is this going to cost?
00:09:40.039 -->
00:09:43.159How much money are we going to save? How long is it going to take? When do we start?
00:09:43.719 -->
00:09:48.719And he just looks at me and he says, well, Mr. Kiefer, what's the problem you're trying to solve?
00:09:49.399 -->
00:09:52.379And I go, oh, that's a good question.
00:09:52.959 -->
00:09:57.559You know, I'm at Harley making all these, you know, all these changes and blah, blah, blah.
00:09:57.719 -->
00:10:01.699And I'm coming up against a brick wall and I came in a hard time figuring out
00:10:01.699 -->
00:10:03.979what to do next. And I read about your article and blah, blah, blah.
00:10:04.519 -->
00:10:07.979So I want to put the Toyota production system in this place so I can keep changing
00:10:07.979 -->
00:10:09.559and keep on being a clever guy.
00:10:10.939 -->
00:10:17.039He goes, oh, you want to know about the Toyota production system? I go, yeah.
00:10:17.679 -->
00:10:20.339He says, well, you seem like you're ready to go. I said, yeah,
00:10:20.419 -->
00:10:25.319I'm ready to go right now. He says, okay, well, please answer this question for me.
00:10:25.885 -->
00:10:27.045What's the problem you're trying
00:10:27.045 -->
00:10:31.885to solve? And I go like, this guy's playing word games. So I get mad.
00:10:32.025 -->
00:10:34.785He gets mad. Like he comes here to help me and then I don't want to play his
00:10:34.785 -->
00:10:36.105game. I wanted to play my game.
00:10:36.605 -->
00:10:40.745He leaves. Luckily his guys stayed behind and said, Don, if you want to work
00:10:40.745 -->
00:10:42.965with Mr. Oba, you have to do it his way. He's going to show you.
00:10:43.125 -->
00:10:45.425He's not going to teach you. He's going to show you and blah, blah, blah.
00:10:45.645 -->
00:10:48.605So we picked a spot six weeks later, he came back and we started.
00:10:49.025 -->
00:10:53.465But that was my first introduction to Mr. Oba. It was like, he walked out because
00:10:53.465 -->
00:10:55.025I was like, no, you're doing it my way.
00:10:55.185 -->
00:10:58.465We're going to pick a problem and solve it. So that's my story, Mr. Elba.
00:10:59.205 -->
00:11:02.045Probably one of the few people that ever almost came to blows with the guy.
00:11:05.685 -->
00:11:10.045Okay, so you implemented some improvements there like that.
00:11:10.145 -->
00:11:17.305But you met Nelson, your co-author, and he was a pure academic from MIT, right?
00:11:17.965 -->
00:11:22.205Right. He had a grant from the National Science Foundation.
00:11:22.725 -->
00:11:25.505But one of the requirements was you
00:11:25.505 -->
00:11:28.305had to have an industry partner okay so our head of
00:11:28.305 -->
00:11:31.645quality the late Ron Hutchinson signed up
00:11:31.645 -->
00:11:35.845he said yeah we'll partner with you come to Harley and so he was there you know
00:11:35.845 -->
00:11:38.905learning about quality what we were doing and helping us figure out like what's
00:11:38.905 -->
00:11:44.385the next step in quality and Nelson's basic response was well you've you've
00:11:44.385 -->
00:11:47.565done a lot manufacturing so the place you ought to attack now is you got to
00:11:47.565 -->
00:11:51.065fix the design make it easier to manufacture and higher quality.
00:11:51.985 -->
00:11:56.305And they were walking down the hallway and they said, and I'm coming the other way.
00:11:56.485 -->
00:12:00.465And Ron Hutchinson says, oh, you got to talk to this guy. He's working in product
00:12:00.465 -->
00:12:03.465development and he's like ripping up everything, changing everything. You need to talk to him.
00:12:04.577 -->
00:12:08.697So we had lunch together in the company cafeteria. And, you know,
00:12:08.777 -->
00:12:12.477he's like 15 years younger than me and just a newly minted PhD.
00:12:13.457 -->
00:12:17.297And, you know, I'm in my mid-40s and I'm like a crazy man. You know,
00:12:17.397 -->
00:12:19.497I'm like doing everything and all excited.
00:12:19.757 -->
00:12:22.817And I'm telling him all this stuff we're doing. And one thing I did was like
00:12:22.817 -->
00:12:27.477I took Harley's process, which was like totally chaotic product development
00:12:27.477 -->
00:12:28.657when I got the engine project.
00:12:28.837 -->
00:12:32.977And I interviewed a lot of the project leaders and I figured out basically a stage gate process.
00:12:33.657 -->
00:12:37.257And I was so proud of myself. Like everyone who, you know, comes up from the
00:12:37.257 -->
00:12:38.777bottom, everything I do is new.
00:12:39.337 -->
00:12:42.957And Nelson looks at me and says, Don, why don't you read a book once in a while?
00:12:43.157 -->
00:12:47.777Stage Gate Process was invented like 15 or 20 years ago by the automotive industry.
00:12:48.417 -->
00:12:51.997Why don't you read a book once in a while? I go, oh, okay. So then we're walking
00:12:51.997 -->
00:12:55.257down and I'm telling this story about another thing I did. And he goes,
00:12:55.317 -->
00:12:56.797well, hold on. I want to hear more about that.
00:12:57.528 -->
00:13:00.448And I go, well, that's some stupid thing I did over there, Nelson.
00:13:00.548 -->
00:13:01.628Why do you want to talk about that?
00:13:01.968 -->
00:13:05.508Let's talk about important stuff. He goes, well, that is important because actually
00:13:05.508 -->
00:13:08.888there's very little written about this thing that you did, but what's written
00:13:08.888 -->
00:13:12.828says you should do exactly the opposite of what you did and your results are stunning.
00:13:13.128 -->
00:13:15.048So I want to study this, understand why.
00:13:16.008 -->
00:13:18.928And I was like, I'm kind of, cause I was kind of a loose can.
00:13:18.988 -->
00:13:22.228I go like, this is a guy I want to hang out with because now he can,
00:13:22.328 -->
00:13:23.968he can help me understand where
00:13:23.968 -->
00:13:27.068to go and where to move and why stuff works. So we, that's how we met.
00:13:27.648 -->
00:13:30.748And the thing about us both is we always want to make everything better.
00:13:31.208 -->
00:13:34.848He, from a very academic point of view, and me from like a junkyard dog,
00:13:34.988 -->
00:13:36.188fix it, let's get going guy.
00:13:36.648 -->
00:13:39.108And we've, that was in 1996. So
00:13:39.108 -->
00:13:43.128next year we'll be working together for 30 years. So we would fix stuff.
00:13:43.468 -->
00:13:45.408Then we talk about it. I fly to MIT.
00:13:45.788 -->
00:13:49.748We talk through, understand it, make another plan and go. And we've been doing
00:13:49.748 -->
00:13:53.248this, go fix it and go learn from it for 30 years.
00:13:53.388 -->
00:13:57.448And about 10 years ago, he said, we have something new here.
00:13:57.528 -->
00:14:02.988And we need to be able to articulate it. But what we're doing is not the same
00:14:02.988 -->
00:14:03.908as everyone else is doing.
00:14:04.068 -->
00:14:08.368So that's the story of Nelson and I. That's very interesting, too.
00:14:08.588 -->
00:14:11.688I think it sounds like you guys complement each other rather well, right?
00:14:12.588 -->
00:14:16.888Yeah, but we're like complete opposites. He's never had coffee.
00:14:17.028 -->
00:14:18.528I drink coffee all day long.
00:14:19.248 -->
00:14:22.748I'm excited. He's very thoughtful. You know, he reads books.
00:14:22.908 -->
00:14:27.348I mean, I read books, but like he knows stuff. And so we're always kind of fighting
00:14:27.348 -->
00:14:31.668to find that place in the middle where theory and practice meets.
00:14:32.288 -->
00:14:36.628And that's been the wonderful thing about it. And Don, before I get too far,
00:14:36.848 -->
00:14:41.188the improvements you were making, I would assume, because I'm thinking,
00:14:41.388 -->
00:14:43.388what do you think about when you're in manufacturing?
00:14:43.548 -->
00:14:50.408You were improving efficiency, flow, quality, all the metrics that typically
00:14:50.408 -->
00:14:54.748are out there measured in manufacturing. And is that really where things were improving?
00:14:55.593 -->
00:15:00.953Yeah. And the factory was quality cost of delivery. Yeah. So we were just knocking
00:15:00.953 -->
00:15:02.773the socks off and safety too.
00:15:02.913 -->
00:15:07.113It became the safest plan in the Harley system. And one of the things we did,
00:15:07.133 -->
00:15:11.013just as an example, is we, in the back of the factory, we had a place where
00:15:11.013 -->
00:15:12.253we made aftermarket parts.
00:15:12.393 -->
00:15:15.873So for example, a flywheel, it was out of production. You'd call up Harley and
00:15:15.873 -->
00:15:24.093say, my 1985 flywheel, I need a new one. And it would take between 90 and 120 days to deliver that.
00:15:24.273 -->
00:15:28.193And we have 45 machines just making flywheels, which is the connecting rod and
00:15:28.193 -->
00:15:31.193the rotating part of the engine, the crankshaft.
00:15:31.893 -->
00:15:37.913A year after working with Mr. Oba, we went from 120 days in 45 machines to 17
00:15:37.913 -->
00:15:40.813of the same machines, not new. We threw away the rest.
00:15:41.013 -->
00:15:45.333We only needed 17 of those machines. and you call up in the morning to get a
00:15:45.333 -->
00:15:50.6531985 or 1975 flywheel, and it shipped in the afternoon and not from stock.
00:15:51.233 -->
00:15:56.753Manufacturers ship the same day. 120 days to one, 45 machines, 17.
00:15:56.893 -->
00:15:59.653So it wasn't just like, oh, let's get 5% more efficient.
00:16:00.033 -->
00:16:03.353I mean, it was very eye-opening for me because –.
00:16:04.496 -->
00:16:10.556Greg, at that time, we had 25,000 people a year coming to visit that plant and walk through it.
00:16:10.776 -->
00:16:13.376Business people, motorcycle riders, people in the press.
00:16:13.736 -->
00:16:18.056We had Hulk Hogan and the Blue Angels of Roxas. But a lot of business people
00:16:18.056 -->
00:16:19.476came to see what Harley was doing.
00:16:19.656 -->
00:16:23.756And Mr. Oba came in and basically told me, you suck, you have no clue.
00:16:23.816 -->
00:16:25.736I know you grew up in factories, you've been there 30 years,
00:16:25.796 -->
00:16:27.916but you don't have a clue what you're doing.
00:16:28.396 -->
00:16:32.356And what I wanted to learn from Mr. Oba was, because I knew I could never catch
00:16:32.356 -->
00:16:36.256him in manufacturing, with his experience, I want to figure out how he thought.
00:16:36.656 -->
00:16:40.656I want to be able to predict the next question that I had to go figure out.
00:16:40.956 -->
00:16:44.856And that's what I did with Mr. Oba because as soon as we got that running,
00:16:45.096 -->
00:16:48.256I wanted to switch to what I was doing now, which is intellectual work.
00:16:48.776 -->
00:16:53.376So finance, legal, strategy deployment, all this procurement,
00:16:53.576 -->
00:16:55.576all this stuff that happens in the office, product development.
00:16:55.876 -->
00:16:57.776And that's where I went, product development.
00:16:58.136 -->
00:17:02.256Okay. So you're making the distinction between, say, pure manufacturing,
00:17:02.516 -->
00:17:05.196shop floor to the intellectual work which is
00:17:05.196 -->
00:17:08.396all the other work in the business that has to get done but usually
00:17:08.396 -->
00:17:11.976in the office or somewhere off the shop floor and
00:17:11.976 -->
00:17:14.996that's where you're helping companies improve processes and
00:17:14.996 -->
00:17:17.876and the way they're going about doing things yeah so we
00:17:17.876 -->
00:17:22.716made that nelson made that pivot in 2002 we said okay we got we understand factories
00:17:22.716 -->
00:17:26.696and by the way there's a lot of people way more experienced that like coming
00:17:26.696 -->
00:17:31.756in and doing that faster than us we understand the idea of it so now but but
00:17:31.756 -->
00:17:35.076the mistake people were making was they're trying to take the rules and practices.
00:17:35.923 -->
00:17:40.203Of lean manufacturing or TPS, whatever you want to call it, and trying to take it into the office.
00:17:40.283 -->
00:17:45.443So like forcing engineers to 5S their desk and things like that.
00:17:45.543 -->
00:17:48.243And the engineers are going, get the hell out of here. You have no clue what I'm doing.
00:17:48.783 -->
00:17:52.383So they didn't know how those ideas transferred to different work.
00:17:52.463 -->
00:17:54.803They just knew the rules for manufacturing for visible work.
00:17:54.883 -->
00:17:57.963And it did not work for invisible work. It didn't work for executives.
00:17:58.143 -->
00:18:01.803Like the executives were saying, you can't convert my job
00:18:01.803 -->
00:18:06.483into a process that happens every six minutes or something like that i'm creative
00:18:06.483 -->
00:18:10.423so and it is the intellectual intellectual work is not only invisible you can't
00:18:10.423 -->
00:18:14.503see it it's more creative and more highly variable and so we wanted to tackle
00:18:14.503 -->
00:18:18.423that and that's what we've been working on for 20 20 some years okay so you
00:18:18.423 -->
00:18:21.103left industry i think in around 2007,
00:18:21.703 -->
00:18:25.563when you started a small con it was small then i don't know how big it is now
00:18:25.563 -->
00:18:31.163but shift gear shift gear work design right very focused on that and then you
00:18:31.163 -->
00:18:35.063started doing your your teaching at MIT at the same time.
00:18:35.543 -->
00:18:39.543And so that, that I'm sure you've worked with lots of companies and you took
00:18:39.543 -->
00:18:44.703all those experiences and with Nelson published this book, I believe it came
00:18:44.703 -->
00:18:45.963out in August of this year.
00:18:46.463 -->
00:18:50.023Folks, the name of that book is there's got to be a better way.
00:18:50.143 -->
00:18:53.323And it's got a big butterfly, I think, breaking through some glass on it.
00:18:53.423 -->
00:18:57.943So it's pretty, pretty, pretty stunning image on the, on the cover of it and a great title.
00:18:58.603 -->
00:19:03.283But you know, it's, it's really about, which is considered a game-changing discipline
00:19:03.283 -->
00:19:07.963of dynamic work design. And I want to dive into that with you and make that
00:19:07.963 -->
00:19:10.403the focus of our conversation as we move forward.
00:19:10.663 -->
00:19:14.543So first of all, you know, I always ask people, you wrote a book.
00:19:14.643 -->
00:19:17.763Why would you write a book? What was your ambition with writing this book?
00:19:17.943 -->
00:19:19.943We had so many.
00:19:20.523 -->
00:19:24.403First of all, the book wasn't written by going and studying Toyota or going
00:19:24.403 -->
00:19:26.123and writing a case on something.
00:19:26.303 -->
00:19:29.023This comes from our 30 years of working together.
00:19:29.703 -->
00:19:34.563And the thousands of executive MBA students who we forced to do a project.
00:19:34.763 -->
00:19:37.423So this comes from out of our own work experience.
00:19:38.003 -->
00:19:40.363And we knew it was different. We knew how to do it.
00:19:41.091 -->
00:19:45.471But we were only hitting a limited number of people because it's mostly by word
00:19:45.471 -->
00:19:46.311of mouth and through teaching.
00:19:46.491 -->
00:19:51.291So we wanted to get the word out, but we also wanted to get it in writing.
00:19:51.771 -->
00:19:56.311So it wasn't just, oh, yeah, call Donnie. He could do these very cool things that you didn't see.
00:19:56.451 -->
00:20:00.631But how can we convert this to something that people can read a book and get
00:20:00.631 -->
00:20:04.271an idea of how to get started themselves and get out to a larger audience?
00:20:04.591 -->
00:20:09.371We just wanted to get that done before I got too old to remember what the hell
00:20:09.371 -->
00:20:10.871I was doing anymore. Yeah.
00:20:11.071 -->
00:20:14.091And I'm interested in this because this intellectual work, right?
00:20:14.211 -->
00:20:15.911People, a factory is a factory.
00:20:16.071 -->
00:20:19.531And if you're a manufacturing person or an engineer, you know,
00:20:19.611 -->
00:20:23.011you can really kind of see, oh, you know, I can walk through a factory today
00:20:23.011 -->
00:20:27.171and I can say, oh, you should set that five feet to the left because it would be a lot more efficient.
00:20:27.631 -->
00:20:31.691But with intellectual work, you know, it's unseen. I think you've said that
00:20:31.691 -->
00:20:33.631already, right? A lot of it is unseen.
00:20:34.231 -->
00:20:38.111So, you know, with this, I guess the other question I would ask about the book
00:20:38.111 -->
00:20:41.251before we get into the guts of it more is who should read this book?
00:20:42.071 -->
00:20:47.491Anyone can benefit from people who just doing their own work to the CEO, to teams.
00:20:47.711 -->
00:20:51.751So it's really about human work. It's not about an industry or about teams.
00:20:51.911 -->
00:20:55.411It's about how do we organize and do human work? And it's based,
00:20:55.571 -->
00:20:59.351because I have an academic partner, it's based in a lot of theory,
00:21:00.011 -->
00:21:04.091social science theory, brain theories, like how do we organize work based on science.
00:21:04.531 -->
00:21:07.991The other thing is that we wanted to give people a way to think,
00:21:08.551 -->
00:21:10.331not just tell them what to do.
00:21:10.551 -->
00:21:13.051How do you see the work? How do you think about the work?
00:21:13.851 -->
00:21:17.731The people are already skilled at solving problems, but they weren't looking at work the right way.
00:21:17.891 -->
00:21:23.071So that's really the focus of dynamic work design is to get into invisible work.
00:21:23.834 -->
00:21:27.274Like I used to tell people, my friends that, oh, you work in a factory is,
00:21:27.634 -->
00:21:29.594you know, they would think, oh, you just do the same thing every day.
00:21:29.674 -->
00:21:31.254And I would tell them stories. No, it's different every day.
00:21:31.454 -->
00:21:34.774It's kind of wackable every day, but it's very, there's so many things happening.
00:21:34.914 -->
00:21:35.534It's super interesting.
00:21:35.734 -->
00:21:40.174So I tell them, if you want to be a really good, sound really smart when you
00:21:40.174 -->
00:21:43.714go on a factory tour, and then when you see some inventory that's sitting there,
00:21:44.434 -->
00:21:47.774stop the tour guide and say, what is the purpose of that inventory?
00:21:48.334 -->
00:21:53.534Why is it not moving? Right? There's a whole thing of lean and Toyota is like, what are you moving?
00:21:54.034 -->
00:21:57.474So you can see it in a factory, but how do you see invisible work?
00:21:57.574 -->
00:21:59.254Where does it even reside in the office?
00:21:59.434 -->
00:22:03.714It's in your inbox, in your email box, it's in meetings, it's on spreadsheets.
00:22:04.054 -->
00:22:08.814If the project gets delayed two weeks, no one can see it unless the project manager says so.
00:22:08.914 -->
00:22:14.154So it's much tougher, much tougher to even see the work in the office area.
00:22:14.274 -->
00:22:19.074And so that was the challenge of moving to the office area. There are a lot more inputs.
00:22:19.214 -->
00:22:22.974Like on assembly line, it does one thing. But if you're working in a business,
00:22:23.014 -->
00:22:24.434you can get inputs from anyone.
00:22:24.674 -->
00:22:28.614So to answer your question, I think primarily it works for anyone,
00:22:28.854 -->
00:22:33.794but primarily the people who are sick and tired of putting up with this stupid
00:22:33.794 -->
00:22:37.534baloney they have to fight through every day to get their job,
00:22:37.634 -->
00:22:38.594then trying to make it better.
00:22:39.614 -->
00:22:42.654This will help them, no matter what level you're at.
00:22:43.494 -->
00:22:47.454So it sounds like you're going after some of the bureaucratic BS we all live with.
00:22:47.454 -->
00:22:53.714Right and and and you called it dynamic work design that sounds like a very intentional,
00:22:54.534 -->
00:22:57.594name for this can you just explain what
00:22:57.594 -->
00:23:00.614that means and then we'll we'll get into some of the principles the
00:23:00.614 -->
00:23:03.974core principles yeah first let's talk about its opposite static
00:23:03.974 -->
00:23:07.434work design this is what everyone knows it doesn't have a name but we gave it
00:23:07.434 -->
00:23:11.194a name because now there's something else beside it static work design like
00:23:11.194 -->
00:23:16.154an org chart an org chart we need them Org charts and organizational hierarchies
00:23:16.154 -->
00:23:21.134were built in the industrial area so you could take small businesses and take them to scale.
00:23:21.334 -->
00:23:26.614So they're important, but they give you no clue as to how to do the work.
00:23:27.435 -->
00:23:31.535It doesn't describe the org. I think about work coming in as an idea from one
00:23:31.535 -->
00:23:35.875side, exiting as an intellectual or physical product. That org chart tells you nothing.
00:23:36.375 -->
00:23:41.555It's also pasted on the wall. It doesn't move unless you're changing the org chart every 18 months.
00:23:41.995 -->
00:23:46.135Same thing with a process sheet. A process map tells you what's supposed to
00:23:46.135 -->
00:23:49.875happen, but it doesn't tell you what is happening, nor does it tell you what
00:23:49.875 -->
00:23:50.895to do when something goes wrong.
00:23:51.015 -->
00:23:55.075So we usually think in these kind of static type of models.
00:23:55.815 -->
00:23:59.935So dynamic work design is based on a couple of things.
00:24:00.155 -->
00:24:05.395One is that we only recognize human beings as performing value-added work.
00:24:05.595 -->
00:24:09.055We don't, machines don't do value-added work. Computers don't do value-added
00:24:09.055 -->
00:24:11.535work. Suppliers, it's only human beings.
00:24:12.015 -->
00:24:17.135So the nodes on all of our diagrams are always individual people, not departments.
00:24:17.895 -->
00:24:21.515And the second thing is the way we interrogate the work is we take one piece
00:24:21.515 -->
00:24:26.835of work and we watch it go through those nodes. and see what's happening, all the issues.
00:24:27.035 -->
00:24:29.315Is it moving or not? How many loops back?
00:24:29.775 -->
00:24:33.675And so then from that, we start to understand what's really happening and we
00:24:33.675 -->
00:24:35.695can make the intellectual work more visible.
00:24:36.215 -->
00:24:39.695So it's about keeping work, intellectual work moving, basically.
00:24:39.995 -->
00:24:44.115Same thing as in manufacturing, but people don't know how to think about intellectual
00:24:44.115 -->
00:24:46.475work the same way you think about physical work.
00:24:46.575 -->
00:24:50.535I can go see the cars moving down the line, but can you see a project moving?
00:24:50.795 -->
00:24:54.795No, you only get a report or you get statistics on the wall or a spreadsheet
00:24:54.795 -->
00:24:57.475two weeks later, get all these kind of lagging indicators.
00:24:57.655 -->
00:25:02.195But who knows how to go see if the work and the project is actually moving today?
00:25:02.931 -->
00:25:07.351That's, that's what we worked on. So I'm starting to get more of a grasp of
00:25:07.351 -->
00:25:10.851this now, because I don't know, I mean, personally, I always still feel like
00:25:10.851 -->
00:25:14.451I can feel when inefficiency is happening with my own work, right?
00:25:14.551 -->
00:25:17.891Like I should have had two screens open there and I could have done this,
00:25:18.131 -->
00:25:21.051you know, two minutes faster than the four minutes it took me,
00:25:21.171 -->
00:25:23.011right? Like, oh, you know, what a waste.
00:25:23.131 -->
00:25:27.191I think that's sometimes it's growing up in a lean in a Six Sigma environment
00:25:27.191 -->
00:25:32.051for me, but I've applied this, and I'm not even trying to say we came close,
00:25:32.111 -->
00:25:36.371but I left the manufacturing to go to an internet-based company,
00:25:36.571 -->
00:25:41.031but we had processes, and I ended up in the market operations area,
00:25:41.031 -->
00:25:46.311and I was noticing that some people were overworked, staying late.
00:25:46.611 -->
00:25:52.391Other folks didn't have anything to do, and were bugging out right at the closing time, so to speak.
00:25:52.591 -->
00:25:56.331And I'm like, we got to balance this workload more. So we did some work there
00:25:56.331 -->
00:26:00.651with visual management, but broke the work down into logical steps as well.
00:26:00.811 -->
00:26:03.671So I think I might have done a little bit of this,
00:26:03.791 -->
00:26:06.731maybe by mistake, but more out of necessity, because I said,
00:26:06.791 -->
00:26:11.551look, I can't scale this business or this function within the business unless
00:26:11.551 -->
00:26:16.191I do something to make it a more balanced workload and apply some of these principles.
00:26:16.191 -->
00:26:18.511So let's get into it now.
00:26:18.631 -->
00:26:20.951Let's get into the core principles.
00:26:21.151 -->
00:26:25.531There's five, and I'd like you to explore each one of those and pepper this
00:26:25.531 -->
00:26:29.551with as many stories as you like, please, Don, to illustrate these points.
00:26:30.231 -->
00:26:32.651Yeah. First of all, I think what you said is really important,
00:26:32.771 -->
00:26:35.131Greg, which is we didn't go like,
00:26:35.727 -->
00:26:40.027do some scientific research and pull some new concept out of the stars.
00:26:40.367 -->
00:26:43.407It's like, this comes from what we found that worked.
00:26:43.747 -->
00:26:48.387So people are doing these types of things all the time, but they just do it
00:26:48.387 -->
00:26:50.727when they come across it naturally. There's no framework.
00:26:51.627 -->
00:26:56.027When we describe problems at work, there's no real framework to describe a problem.
00:26:56.127 -->
00:27:01.507It's like, oh, communication or incentives or training. But we don't really
00:27:01.507 -->
00:27:05.687have a framework to say, here's one of the structural problems with work,
00:27:05.827 -->
00:27:07.367but this has come out of our experience.
00:27:07.507 -->
00:27:12.687So if you don't recognize some of these behaviors, then they're not right.
00:27:12.987 -->
00:27:17.567What we've done is articulate them and we've boiled them down to five things about work.
00:27:17.747 -->
00:27:21.347It's not about leadership. It's not about your attitude. It's not about the
00:27:21.347 -->
00:27:25.127hat you wear, the uniform you wear, the air conditioning or the country you're
00:27:25.127 -->
00:27:25.907in or the culture you're in.
00:27:26.167 -->
00:27:32.327It's about is the work moving or not? And how do we as humans do work to keep that work moving.
00:27:33.107 -->
00:27:39.107So, so here they are. And I've been at this a long time and I can't remember
00:27:39.107 -->
00:27:44.147an operational problem I came across that didn't fit one or more of these five things.
00:27:44.487 -->
00:27:49.307So I think now we might come across a sixth one or add on to it or someone else
00:27:49.307 -->
00:27:55.027might, but right now we don't know if any outliers are that don't describe these.
00:27:55.367 -->
00:27:59.547So the first one is solve the right problem and solve it the right way.
00:28:00.087 -->
00:28:03.567So a lot of times, because of the way our brain works, we just jump to a conclusion.
00:28:03.967 -->
00:28:05.947More experienced people will
00:28:05.947 -->
00:28:08.967do it faster. Like you said, you're experienced with Lean and Six Sigma.
00:28:09.267 -->
00:28:12.847You go in a factory, you go like, oh, that should move five over.
00:28:12.967 -->
00:28:14.107It's your natural reaction.
00:28:14.627 -->
00:28:19.227But what we say is sometimes that part of your brain, I don't know if you've
00:28:19.227 -->
00:28:21.447read Kahneman's book, Thinking Fast, Thinking Slow.
00:28:22.047 -->
00:28:25.967There's a pattern matching part of your brain. It's based on your experience. It's a logical part.
00:28:26.751 -->
00:28:31.031So what we want to do is make you turn on your logical brain and make sure you're
00:28:31.031 -->
00:28:33.571solving the right problem before you go into action.
00:28:33.691 -->
00:28:36.291Like a problem is not, I need new software.
00:28:36.611 -->
00:28:40.611A problem is not the marketing people suck. The problem is not,
00:28:40.751 -->
00:28:42.291why aren't you doing my favorite solution?
00:28:42.471 -->
00:28:46.271The problem is objective to the work. Like we're at 45% sales,
00:28:46.291 -->
00:28:51.411we need to be at 65%. So a whole big thing about, let's get the problem clear.
00:28:51.971 -->
00:28:54.931And I'll tell you what, I've worked with a lot of executives and they meet with
00:28:54.931 -->
00:28:58.231me and say, we got to do this. The problem is we need this and we need a new
00:28:58.231 -->
00:28:59.971plant. We need that. I go like, oh, wait a minute.
00:29:00.271 -->
00:29:04.151Those are all solutions. What's the problem you're trying to solve?
00:29:04.351 -->
00:29:08.811The same question that Mr. Ova got me is like, let's get down to brass tacks.
00:29:08.931 -->
00:29:10.271And a lot of times they don't really know.
00:29:10.811 -->
00:29:13.411And it's hard for them because they're so good at problem solving.
00:29:13.551 -->
00:29:14.731They just jump to what they think is.
00:29:15.331 -->
00:29:19.391So we use the A3 like many people do. And the reason the A3 or Damaic,
00:29:19.471 -->
00:29:23.011any of these things work, we're not religious about which one you use.
00:29:23.011 -->
00:29:27.511The reason they work is they take them out of this experience quick
00:29:27.511 -->
00:29:30.471to decide they push them up into your logical brain because you
00:29:30.471 -->
00:29:34.311have to write the problem statement down and do the scientific method and put
00:29:34.311 -->
00:29:38.251the data so that's the first thing is solve the right problem get the right
00:29:38.251 -->
00:29:43.051problem statement and then go do it like a signed use a scientific method to
00:29:43.051 -->
00:29:48.291go run an experiment that's the first one okay okay the second one is called
00:29:48.291 -->
00:29:49.371structure for discovery.
00:29:50.382 -->
00:29:54.562So just to show you this stuff comes out of normal human behavior,
00:29:54.922 -->
00:29:57.542like what happens when there's a crisis?
00:29:59.122 -->
00:30:02.082Like everyone goes in a room. We get the most important people in a room.
00:30:02.182 -->
00:30:03.862Doesn't matter what level they are.
00:30:04.662 -->
00:30:06.662You know, they take the stripes off when they come in a room.
00:30:06.762 -->
00:30:10.282You can have an operator. You can have a technician. You can have the CEO. They get in a room.
00:30:10.602 -->
00:30:13.362They agree on what the problem is. They write it on the board.
00:30:13.742 -->
00:30:14.982They write down the data.
00:30:15.662 -->
00:30:20.342They decide what they're going to do. Then they go run the experiment, see if we can fix it.
00:30:20.602 -->
00:30:24.982They meet constantly during the day, see if those activities are working or not.
00:30:25.442 -->
00:30:29.142They learn, they find out the issues, they solve them, and they're working constantly
00:30:29.142 -->
00:30:31.302to discover how to solve this problem.
00:30:32.562 -->
00:30:36.662But think about how we manage the business. We get these numbers that are a
00:30:36.662 -->
00:30:40.202week, two weeks, a month old, several months old at the end of the quarter,
00:30:40.242 -->
00:30:43.422and we look at spreadsheets, numbers, not looking at any work.
00:30:43.822 -->
00:30:46.522And people start telling stories of what the numbers should,
00:30:46.682 -->
00:30:48.442you know, let's move the financial numbers.
00:30:48.462 -->
00:30:52.262They have no clue what's going on with the real work.
00:30:53.083 -->
00:30:56.463No clue what's going on in the real world. So that's a management style.
00:30:56.843 -->
00:31:00.743So if we make those meetings a little bit more like a crisis management,
00:31:00.923 -->
00:31:02.863like we have four elements we need.
00:31:03.043 -->
00:31:05.463We need a clear target and we need
00:31:05.463 -->
00:31:08.863to understand the intent behind those targets. I don't understand why.
00:31:09.683 -->
00:31:13.163Two is we need supporting metrics. You want me to go faster?
00:31:13.383 -->
00:31:15.183Okay, what about quality and delivery?
00:31:15.543 -->
00:31:18.543Oh, go faster, but don't let quality drop? Don't let delivery drop.
00:31:18.663 -->
00:31:22.883These all sound familiar, right, the way we work, but it's not the way management works.
00:31:23.443 -->
00:31:26.603So then we want to see not just, oh, Greg, what are you going to do?
00:31:26.783 -->
00:31:30.963Don't worry, Don, I got this. We'll go fix it. No, Greg, we want to see the activity set.
00:31:31.403 -->
00:31:37.143So we can match the activities to the target and see if everyone believes that's the best plan of action.
00:31:38.003 -->
00:31:43.383And maybe we can coordinate it. So we see the activities and then we need clear feedback loops.
00:31:43.983 -->
00:31:46.963Not like I'm going to give you your performance review next month.
00:31:47.123 -->
00:31:50.903No, like when I pull a door close, I hear the latch click. I know the door is
00:31:50.903 -->
00:31:53.043closed. So we did the activity.
00:31:53.363 -->
00:31:56.563Did it produce what we want or not? What can we learn?
00:31:56.803 -->
00:32:00.523When we get that style going in management, it's a learning discussion.
00:32:00.643 -->
00:32:04.223It's not a blaming about you or me. It's about the work. Is it work moving? What are we learning?
00:32:04.443 -->
00:32:09.063So the structure is so we are discovering and not just executing somebody's
00:32:09.063 -->
00:32:13.003idea of a plan. Do you have any examples where that discovery process,
00:32:13.183 -->
00:32:15.423you know, maybe throw something out here?
00:32:15.743 -->
00:32:20.043Is it asking a lot of questions? Is it like five why?
00:32:20.683 -->
00:32:25.523No, we actually, I'll tell you one story. We got called into an organization
00:32:25.523 -->
00:32:27.643that was trying to build a new plant.
00:32:28.283 -->
00:32:34.023They were out of space and they were building a new plant like five miles away.
00:32:34.023 -->
00:32:38.643They were six months into the project and they were three months behind and they called me for help.
00:32:39.023 -->
00:32:45.303So after a day or two, I went to the CEO and said, the problem is you've got
00:32:45.303 -->
00:32:50.303like 50 people in this project team and they all think they're working on something different.
00:32:51.472 -->
00:32:54.212And I talked to your executives and they're not clear what you're doing and
00:32:54.212 -->
00:32:55.912what the targets are. And he gets mad.
00:32:56.172 -->
00:32:59.432He's like, are you kidding me? I've communicated this so many times,
00:32:59.552 -->
00:33:03.012Don. And he was like a good conscientious leader, good communicator.
00:33:03.192 -->
00:33:06.192I said, I don't care how much you've tried. They're not on the same page.
00:33:06.292 -->
00:33:07.132He said, what should we do?
00:33:07.732 -->
00:33:11.352Well, first, let's get your team together, clarify what this is all about.
00:33:11.472 -->
00:33:14.552And then we'll go in front of the other team. So he says, OK,
00:33:14.732 -->
00:33:17.912we'll do it. Whatever you say. We get the 10 people in the staff and room.
00:33:18.552 -->
00:33:21.292Here's the meeting. okay guys i want you to write down
00:33:21.292 -->
00:33:24.272what the targets are for this project what you
00:33:24.272 -->
00:33:27.012want the team and and why just write down a little
00:33:27.012 -->
00:33:30.192piece of paper and then put them on the wall so they
00:33:30.192 -->
00:33:33.952write them i put them on the wall they're all different great they're all different
00:33:33.952 -->
00:33:39.332including the cfo who admittedly said i have a secret goal of like productivity
00:33:39.332 -->
00:33:44.972for workers like what what kind of a game are you playing here so so they got
00:33:44.972 -->
00:33:47.012clear and i said okay here's what i want you to do Mr.
00:33:47.192 -->
00:33:52.192CEO, I want you to put one slide, prepare one slide with what the targets are
00:33:52.192 -->
00:33:53.692and why this is important for the business.
00:33:53.852 -->
00:33:57.052I'm going to give you 10 minutes to explain it to people in the room.
00:33:57.592 -->
00:34:00.412We get all 50 people in the room. He does it. It took them about a week or two.
00:34:00.512 -->
00:34:02.892He does it. One slide explains why.
00:34:03.152 -->
00:34:06.532And then I said to the people in the room before he starts, usually when the
00:34:06.532 -->
00:34:09.912boss talks, boss says, everyone clear about that? They go, yeah,
00:34:10.032 -->
00:34:11.652boss. Or you get a softball question.
00:34:11.812 -->
00:34:14.252I said, no, I'm handing out post-it notes.
00:34:14.792 -->
00:34:16.672Everybody has to ask three questions.
00:34:17.732 -->
00:34:21.832Everybody. And if you don't have, can't find the first one is,
00:34:22.012 -->
00:34:25.392I'll give you the first one. Can we have every Friday off work with pay?
00:34:25.672 -->
00:34:28.392The answer is going to be no, but it's going to get you right. And they all laugh.
00:34:28.852 -->
00:34:32.712So now talking for 10 minutes, they're listening really carefully.
00:34:33.272 -->
00:34:36.792And the questions are calling them out on bullshit. Pardon my French.
00:34:36.952 -->
00:34:39.372It's like, what's this one teams mean?
00:34:39.672 -->
00:34:43.392Don't you think we're working as one? What's that even mean? We have to be agile.
00:34:43.552 -->
00:34:46.612What's that mean? What's wrong with the project? So I call them out on these
00:34:46.612 -->
00:34:48.132kind of buzzwords that he's using.
00:34:48.392 -->
00:34:52.192And they also asked him like, you know, why is this important for our customers?
00:34:52.272 -->
00:34:54.092What about this supplier? What about that supplier?
00:34:54.252 -->
00:34:56.412And they also said, we haven't all these problems.
00:34:56.952 -->
00:35:02.392So they put them on the wall and then we come back in and he has to answer every single question.
00:35:03.672 -->
00:35:08.372So now there's a conversation. So now the leader and the people doing work are
00:35:08.372 -->
00:35:11.492clear about the targets and the intent behind it. It's a human conversation.
00:35:12.012 -->
00:35:16.292Now we can start running the project and discovering how to get there with frequent stuff.
00:35:16.452 -->
00:35:20.032So we set this up as a scientific experiment, not an implementation.
00:35:20.252 -->
00:35:25.012And it all starts with this kind of human activity of it's in my mind.
00:35:25.152 -->
00:35:28.032The targets aren't the whole story. Are we clear? And what's in the way?
00:35:28.132 -->
00:35:31.352How can I help you? A very human conversation to discover how to get the work
00:35:31.352 -->
00:35:36.532done as an experiment, not just implement a program that some consultant dreamed
00:35:36.532 -->
00:35:37.592of. That's the big difference.
00:35:38.212 -->
00:35:42.932Okay. So when you say structure for discovery, you're really trying to.
00:35:43.668 -->
00:35:50.048Drive that clarity, right? So everybody's on the same page. Everybody knows what the target is.
00:35:50.208 -->
00:35:53.528Everybody knows what their role in achieving that target is,
00:35:53.628 -->
00:35:57.808how they fit into the process and make it happen.
00:35:58.248 -->
00:36:01.848Okay. And then we use the last principle was visualize work. We put it on the wall.
00:36:02.388 -->
00:36:05.548So you can't just tell me what you're going to do. You have to write what you're
00:36:05.548 -->
00:36:08.508going to do on a post and hold on. Don't worry. I know what we're going to do. Okay. Write it down.
00:36:09.048 -->
00:36:11.828And then people go oh that's hard yeah but
00:36:11.828 -->
00:36:14.488you have to write it down simply so we can see it
00:36:14.488 -->
00:36:17.348because we want to all get exactly all get on the same page
00:36:17.348 -->
00:36:21.628and so when we stand in front of that board it's like we did the activity did
00:36:21.628 -->
00:36:25.148it have the result or not if it did how can we get it go faster if it didn't
00:36:25.148 -->
00:36:29.468what can we do to fix it so now it's about the work and discovering the best
00:36:29.468 -->
00:36:34.268way in real time not just did you do the are you are you did you hit the right
00:36:34.268 -->
00:36:36.168milestones and are you on target financially?
00:36:36.388 -->
00:36:39.168No, is the work actually delivering the results?
00:36:39.528 -->
00:36:44.088And that's our normal conversation, not the typical management conversation we have today.
00:36:44.548 -->
00:36:50.728So the structure, the management structure in conversation is built for discovery. That's two principles.
00:36:51.108 -->
00:36:54.788Okay. The next one is connect the human chain. One of the things I learned from Mr.
00:36:54.948 -->
00:36:58.288Oba, one of the most, probably the most important thing I learned from him,
00:36:58.468 -->
00:37:02.308and one of the few times he told me something without putting in the form of
00:37:02.308 -->
00:37:08.168a question and making me dig for it was, Don, this is primarily a human system we work in.
00:37:08.838 -->
00:37:13.358And that just blew me away because I had come from the shop floor,
00:37:13.598 -->
00:37:16.018known all the people, and then it got to manage you.
00:37:16.098 -->
00:37:19.278You'll lose the sense about these are real people trying to do work.
00:37:19.498 -->
00:37:21.138Don, it's a human system we work in.
00:37:21.558 -->
00:37:27.278So that's a main tenet of dynamic work design. And we want to connect that human chain.
00:37:27.778 -->
00:37:31.078So work travels through those nodes of people.
00:37:31.658 -->
00:37:35.238That's how we get work done. And there are basically two chains.
00:37:35.378 -->
00:37:38.358One's the work chain where the work is kind of like a regular process diagram.
00:37:38.858 -->
00:37:41.858Call it the work chain. We draw it horizontally, left to right,
00:37:41.998 -->
00:37:44.158like you do in process mapping.
00:37:44.438 -->
00:37:47.178But then we call it a management chain, which we say vertically,
00:37:47.498 -->
00:37:50.418which supports that work chain.
00:37:50.778 -->
00:37:55.718And we recognize only two kinds of human work, a huddle and a handoff.
00:37:56.258 -->
00:38:00.778A handoff is something that we do all the time. It's known, it's very predictable.
00:38:01.138 -->
00:38:03.818It's like, I'm going to mail you your paycheck. Okay, we don't need to have
00:38:03.818 -->
00:38:04.818a meeting about the paycheck.
00:38:05.058 -->
00:38:07.798It's like an assembly line here you get this thing i don't need to
00:38:07.798 -->
00:38:10.458have a meeting about it's this is normal we used to it
00:38:10.458 -->
00:38:13.518all the time it's a handoff you're the next in the process it's
00:38:13.518 -->
00:38:18.258repeatable the other is a huddle it's like from the let's go to the toyota example
00:38:18.258 -->
00:38:22.838i pull the andon cord what happens we switch from this repeated work from my
00:38:22.838 -->
00:38:28.058from my repeatable pattern matching brain to like boom we need a meeting because
00:38:28.058 -->
00:38:32.498now we have a problem to solve or a decision to make and the team leader comes running over.
00:38:32.678 -->
00:38:37.358So think about it, not just as the team leader, but the management system responds
00:38:37.358 -->
00:38:40.878immediately. And we changed the form of work from these handoffs.
00:38:40.958 -->
00:38:43.278So now we have to have a huddle. We need to talk.
00:38:43.758 -->
00:38:47.818So these whole chains are made up of only those two types of work.
00:38:48.745 -->
00:38:51.745And if you get them in the wrong place, the work goes crazy.
00:38:52.265 -->
00:38:56.045For example, have you ever been part of a very long email chain?
00:38:56.225 -->
00:38:58.365It goes on forever with like 10 people on it.
00:38:59.245 -->
00:39:03.565More than I care to admit. Yeah. So is it just like a bad personal habit?
00:39:04.285 -->
00:39:08.245Nah, it's a design problem. And how do you solve it, Greg?
00:39:08.465 -->
00:39:13.385When that happens, what do you do when that email chain hits you and you just say, okay, that's it.
00:39:13.525 -->
00:39:16.385What are you going to do to solve it? I would say either take me off this chain
00:39:16.385 -->
00:39:19.885because it's irrelevant to me and it's wasting my time and other people's time.
00:39:19.885 -->
00:39:23.525Or I would say, look, we're going back and forth too much.
00:39:23.705 -->
00:39:28.005Let's just get together and talk about this and come up with a plan, move forward.
00:39:28.245 -->
00:39:31.985Right. This is too much back and forth, too much cover your ass with an email.
00:39:32.345 -->
00:39:36.145So we moved to two different designs from the handoff of email to like,
00:39:36.145 -->
00:39:39.905come in my office and we're going to settle this. And how long does it take? Like five minutes.
00:39:40.385 -->
00:39:43.705Right. It's the wrong design of communication. you're trying to do something
00:39:43.705 -->
00:39:45.405with a handoff that should be done in a huddle.
00:39:46.085 -->
00:39:49.025So whenever you see this kind of back and forth and chaos, a lot of times we
00:39:49.025 -->
00:39:52.725just need to put a quick meeting in there to solve all the issues and the flow starts.
00:39:53.045 -->
00:39:57.565So when people start understanding handoffs and huddles, they can quickly decide,
00:39:57.785 -->
00:40:02.145oh, this should be a meeting or this meeting is a handoff. There's so boring. Just send me the slides.
00:40:02.565 -->
00:40:07.265So we can begin to automatically begin to see work in a different way and begin to optimize it.
00:40:07.685 -->
00:40:11.205You know, without a big educational thing or without a big process changes like
00:40:11.205 -->
00:40:15.065oh no let's have a meeting oh no that should be on email so handoffs and huddles
00:40:15.065 -->
00:40:19.085and then the thing about managers is most of their work is done in meetings
00:40:19.085 -->
00:40:24.045making decisions solving problems the problem with them is they there's two
00:40:24.045 -->
00:40:26.065ways you can have these huddles,
00:40:26.565 -->
00:40:30.685one is on a schedule so we have a daily stand-up we have a weekly staff meeting
00:40:30.685 -->
00:40:34.405blah blah blah but problems don't happen on a schedule.
00:40:35.143 -->
00:40:39.683Right. So does the fire department drive past your house once a week and say,
00:40:39.823 -->
00:40:40.943hey, Greg, got a fire going on?
00:40:41.343 -->
00:40:43.723That's kind of like a weekly staff meeting.
00:40:44.343 -->
00:40:47.923Right. It doesn't work. What do you do with a fire? What do you do? Get on the.
00:40:48.143 -->
00:40:53.943What do you call 9-1-1? 9-1-1. Everyone knows what to do when they see smoke or flame. Right.
00:40:54.103 -->
00:40:58.143And what happens? That signal doesn't just go out to like all the fire departments
00:40:58.143 -->
00:41:01.763in the region to say, hey, y'all, someone's not too busy. day.
00:41:01.883 -->
00:41:04.843Could you come over to Greg's house and maybe work on a fire with us?
00:41:05.683 -->
00:41:09.623There's one that's trained to respond right away and they come to help.
00:41:09.703 -->
00:41:10.703They don't give you a lecture.
00:41:10.923 -->
00:41:14.423They don't tell you you're an idiot. Why did this happen? Whose fault it is?
00:41:14.623 -->
00:41:15.983No, they just put the fire out.
00:41:16.323 -->
00:41:19.863Later they come back. So this is called a trigger based on an event.
00:41:20.866 -->
00:41:24.486It's very well known in manufacturing as the and-on cord, which is just the
00:41:24.486 -->
00:41:26.066stop cord. We're going to ask for help.
00:41:26.706 -->
00:41:30.506But try to find those in the intellectual work, in the office area.
00:41:31.386 -->
00:41:34.806You're not even supposed to ask for help. You're supposed to have enough initiative,
00:41:35.066 -->
00:41:36.786leadership training to get – you're supposed
00:41:36.786 -->
00:41:39.546to work through this tangled bureaucracy. We think that's a skill.
00:41:39.786 -->
00:41:43.766That's what the leader says. Instead of the leader making the tangled web clear-cut
00:41:43.766 -->
00:41:44.666so people can do the work.
00:41:44.946 -->
00:41:50.406So managers work with huddles events based on schedule and then based on event.
00:41:50.406 -->
00:41:53.326If this happens in between me you call me i'll respond right
00:41:53.326 -->
00:41:56.586away so that puts management in touch more
00:41:56.586 -->
00:41:59.766in touch with the reality of the work and they work in huddles in these two
00:41:59.766 -->
00:42:04.926ways so that's connect the human chain two is work chain and the management
00:42:04.926 -->
00:42:10.806chain and yeah i can i can think of many cases especially in my prior job where
00:42:10.806 -->
00:42:15.046i would would call one of my reps or talk to them and say, hey,
00:42:15.286 -->
00:42:21.246no more emails, pick up the phone and call that person and get it solved.
00:42:21.406 -->
00:42:25.426I don't want to see that. It's just, it's like watching a ping pong game that I don't care about.
00:42:25.986 -->
00:42:29.666Go, go resolve this now. So it's, it's similar principle, right?
00:42:29.846 -->
00:42:33.646And, and I think it's just intuitive. You see it, but some people will love
00:42:33.646 -->
00:42:37.326to continue that chain and, and see how many replies they can get on it.
00:42:37.586 -->
00:42:42.126So now you see it as a design piece and you go like, oh, we should design the
00:42:42.126 -->
00:42:44.166work to happen this way. So now there's a requirement.
00:42:44.386 -->
00:42:46.366When you hit this, you have a meeting.
00:42:47.006 -->
00:42:52.266So then we don't need a six-week training program. You have to learn all about these Japanese words.
00:42:52.426 -->
00:42:56.426It's like we teach people how to solve problems and to get work moving as the
00:42:56.426 -->
00:42:59.046problems come up. And that's what's different about dynamic work design.
00:42:59.266 -->
00:43:02.246We don't do training. We do maybe an hour of orientation.
00:43:02.506 -->
00:43:06.746And then we say, let's go to the most chaotic problem-prone place,
00:43:06.766 -->
00:43:09.326and let's show you how to put these principles to work.
00:43:09.466 -->
00:43:12.426And once you see it in one place, Greg, then you start seeing it everywhere.
00:43:12.546 -->
00:43:15.626And then it starts, you know, it just kind of wires itself together.
00:43:15.846 -->
00:43:20.546The next one, everyone's going to recognize as pull, but pull is a specific
00:43:20.546 -->
00:43:22.326technique, and we're going to take it to a principle.
00:43:23.107 -->
00:43:27.627It's called regulate the flow. What we want to do is regulate the amount of
00:43:27.627 -->
00:43:30.407work we put into a system so that work keeps flowing.
00:43:30.867 -->
00:43:33.727Now, a pull system does that, but what's the idea behind it?
00:43:34.587 -->
00:43:39.307The idea is we want to push the system for the maximum amount of flow,
00:43:39.307 -->
00:43:44.107and we're going to do it by regulating what goes in it and also optimizing the flow.
00:43:44.307 -->
00:43:49.727So think about the – you've been on an airplane once or twice, I assume.
00:43:50.747 -->
00:43:55.127Yes. So what's the last thing that happens? They shut the door.
00:43:55.327 -->
00:43:57.887They shut the door before you take off.
00:43:58.387 -->
00:44:03.907Once they shut that airplane door, there's no more changes to who's on that airplane.
00:44:04.467 -->
00:44:07.827That's one thing that happens. Airplane's going and it's going to go on time.
00:44:08.027 -->
00:44:11.507The other thing that happens is management is cut off.
00:44:12.227 -->
00:44:15.307Control of the plane switches to the pilot, not the management on the ground.
00:44:15.787 -->
00:44:19.147So now the deal is, I don't care if the plane's half full, got the wrong people,
00:44:19.227 -->
00:44:20.267whatever. That plane's going.
00:44:21.187 -->
00:44:24.407And your job, pilot, is to get there safely in the least amount of time without
00:44:24.407 -->
00:44:29.607stopping and don't call us unless you have an emergency. That's not the way we run projects.
00:44:31.247 -->
00:44:34.127We change the passengers on the train all day long.
00:44:34.247 -->
00:44:38.267So think if we did that on – if we kept changing the requirements of the project
00:44:38.267 -->
00:44:41.747and the management kept fussing with the project leaders instead of just responding
00:44:41.747 -->
00:44:44.167when they had help. Or if they gave them two planes to fly at once.
00:44:45.199 -->
00:44:48.199Okay, we've got everyone on the plane. We're going to pull out on the tarmac
00:44:48.199 -->
00:44:49.679down the runway, get in line.
00:44:49.839 -->
00:44:52.239And then the CEO of the airline calls up and says, oh, Greg,
00:44:52.419 -->
00:44:54.559my nephew needs to be on that plane.
00:44:54.739 -->
00:44:58.479Come back to the gate. And we're going to take Kiefer off. He's an asshole.
00:44:58.679 -->
00:45:01.219He's a jackass, whatever. And put my niece on. Okay.
00:45:02.179 -->
00:45:04.699Or we're going to provide that service to our VIP customers.
00:45:05.619 -->
00:45:08.079Think so what would happen now. You know you don't have to be there on time
00:45:08.079 -->
00:45:09.559because they're going to pull the plane back for you.
00:45:09.939 -->
00:45:13.399Right. So everyone takes their time. The whole system will fall apart.
00:45:13.919 -->
00:45:16.779But we do that intellectual workers and the project work
00:45:16.779 -->
00:45:19.579all the time so that's the
00:45:19.579 -->
00:45:22.619idea of intellectual work is regulate the flow by
00:45:22.619 -->
00:45:26.019using the airplane door and make sure work is moving and we then we give them
00:45:26.019 -->
00:45:29.879visual ways to see if the project work is moving or if there's too many projects
00:45:29.879 -->
00:45:33.519in there and then how to get them out we're going to regulate for like you regulate
00:45:33.519 -->
00:45:38.139the flow on on a highway it's like i didn't make this up it's a rule of physics
00:45:38.139 -->
00:45:41.059but too much work in there, everything comes to a standstill. Got it.
00:45:41.559 -->
00:45:44.099Great. All of a sudden, again, we don't need a lot of training.
00:45:44.319 -->
00:45:48.359Just from that 10-minute explanation, people go back, where's our airplane door?
00:45:48.439 -->
00:45:51.839We need an airplane door because we've got multiple priorities and all this
00:45:51.839 -->
00:45:57.139kind of switching errors and productivity and then long lead times or lead times
00:45:57.139 -->
00:45:59.799at long tails because we're just expediting, blah, blah, blah.
00:45:59.839 -->
00:46:01.559Let's get the airplane door and boom, away they go.
00:46:01.999 -->
00:46:06.479Okay, Number five, let's stick with the airport. Visualize the work.
00:46:08.239 -->
00:46:13.679Imagine if you're an air traffic controller. You get like 40 planes in the air
00:46:13.679 -->
00:46:15.599within a 50-mile radius you're trying to manage.
00:46:15.999 -->
00:46:18.719Okay, but we're not going to give you a radar scope. What we're going to give
00:46:18.719 -->
00:46:20.999you is a really cool spreadsheet.
00:46:21.339 -->
00:46:23.839We're going to print out that spreadsheet every two minutes.
00:46:23.979 -->
00:46:29.039It lists every plane, latitude, longitude, altitude, speed, call sign.
00:46:29.599 -->
00:46:33.379For 50. You're going to read that spreadsheet of 50 planes every two minutes
00:46:33.379 -->
00:46:34.919and decide what to tell them to do.
00:46:36.044 -->
00:46:39.144No, it's not going to work, is it? But that's what we try to do in meetings.
00:46:39.804 -->
00:46:44.044Instead, we're going to put a radar scope and get a digital twin of the actual
00:46:44.044 -->
00:46:48.604work, not the numbers, not the percentages, not the blah, blah, blah.
00:46:48.904 -->
00:46:52.664We just said the actual status of the work because visually we can understand
00:46:52.664 -->
00:46:54.564it. We can decide in real time what to do.
00:46:55.304 -->
00:47:00.384So that's what visual management is. It's a digital twin or a physical twin of the real work.
00:47:00.584 -->
00:47:05.084It's not a, what do you call it, a dashboard. we're 50%,
00:47:05.859 -->
00:47:08.899done. No, like how many invoices are at this station? How many are here?
00:47:08.979 -->
00:47:09.939Are they moving? Where are the issues?
00:47:10.199 -->
00:47:14.919Actually post representatives of the work on the wall because our brains as
00:47:14.919 -->
00:47:16.639humans are meant to work that way.
00:47:16.739 -->
00:47:20.899And now we can all stand around that visual representation of the work and get
00:47:20.899 -->
00:47:24.699super clear on what's happening, who's doing what, and then what we need to
00:47:24.699 -->
00:47:27.219do and then go do it. That's great.
00:47:27.999 -->
00:47:32.319Coming back to that example I talked to you about, But we had a digital way
00:47:32.319 -->
00:47:36.859of tracking who's working on what and where is the work, right?
00:47:37.259 -->
00:47:42.059It was always moved to the station, the next station, if you're done with yours, and help out.
00:47:42.519 -->
00:47:48.039But we also backed that up with literal manila folders, right, in a rack.
00:47:48.499 -->
00:47:52.379And we moved them the same way, right? Just so in case somebody didn't have
00:47:52.379 -->
00:47:56.159a chance to log on and look at it, they could just look there and say,
00:47:56.219 -->
00:47:58.799okay, there it is. I know what to pick up next and go with, right?
00:47:59.399 -->
00:48:05.239And you just make it, you make it so visually obvious, I guess, that it's natural.
00:48:05.559 -->
00:48:09.419You know, there's no, there's no question about what to do next. There's no stopping.
00:48:09.879 -->
00:48:14.239Right. I had, our accountant for many years was a family friend who'd grown
00:48:14.239 -->
00:48:17.519up. It took over the business from his dad. So he'd been running this accounting firm.
00:48:17.719 -->
00:48:20.619Been working since he was like 12 because he'd go in with his dad.
00:48:20.879 -->
00:48:24.279And he, he's my age and we'd go out to dinner occasionally and he was handling
00:48:24.279 -->
00:48:29.139my accounts. So he'd see these companies come in, all these companies.
00:48:29.479 -->
00:48:33.319And he'd say, well, what's that? What are you doing? And then I'd tell him what I could.
00:48:33.419 -->
00:48:37.659He could share some things. But you're like, so one year he calls me up.
00:48:37.719 -->
00:48:39.559He says, or it was at dinner.
00:48:39.719 -->
00:48:43.779He says, Don, I just had the worst tax season of my life.
00:48:44.499 -->
00:48:49.179April 15th, it was just a total disaster. All the returns came into the last minute.
00:48:49.539 -->
00:48:53.819He says, would you just come over and just kind of take a look at my shop and
00:48:53.819 -->
00:48:55.239see if maybe you could help me.
00:48:55.779 -->
00:48:59.179I spent one day there, Greg. Now, I know nothing about tax accounting,
00:48:59.799 -->
00:49:02.999but they were going digital, but they still had folders. This is what reminded
00:49:02.999 -->
00:49:03.839me. They still had a folder.
00:49:04.459 -->
00:49:07.699So even if it was digital, they had a folder with the name so they could track
00:49:07.699 -->
00:49:09.239visually where they were.
00:49:09.830 -->
00:49:13.910The problem was, so like, there's like six stations of getting a tax return done.
00:49:14.410 -->
00:49:16.730So like, I'm going to, I'm going to bring yours over to him.
00:49:16.770 -->
00:49:18.950It'd be 40 returns a day to do the first step.
00:49:19.430 -->
00:49:23.090Okay. 30 of them are easy. They're going to get done. 10 of them are hard.
00:49:23.210 -->
00:49:24.130You're going to put them in a pile.
00:49:25.270 -->
00:49:29.670And that happened every station because I can't call the accountant to call
00:49:29.670 -->
00:49:32.190the client because they don't want to be bothered till like March.
00:49:32.390 -->
00:49:33.590It's like January, February.
00:49:34.050 -->
00:49:36.910So what happens is they're getting all the easy ones done and they're piling
00:49:36.910 -->
00:49:38.690up all the hard ones on their desk.
00:49:39.190 -->
00:49:44.430So I drew a little pencil diagram of this It was showing the inventory And the
00:49:44.430 -->
00:49:48.270guy, his whole life 50 years he's been working He goes like, is that what we do?
00:49:48.450 -->
00:49:53.630I go like, for one day I'm telling you that's what you do We made a simple policy change,
00:49:54.472 -->
00:49:59.172You get 40 today, they have to move within 48 hours.
00:49:59.712 -->
00:50:04.312So get the easy ones going. You can put them to the side, but they have to move in 48 hours.
00:50:04.852 -->
00:50:09.452And then you're going to call the accountant right away, and the accountants
00:50:09.452 -->
00:50:11.632are going to agree that they have to start working in January.
00:50:11.792 -->
00:50:14.132They can't wait until March. They have to answer the phone, call the client
00:50:14.132 -->
00:50:15.752right away to resolve it in 48 hours.
00:50:16.292 -->
00:50:20.552They still had the big rush in April when everyone sends, but they didn't have
00:50:20.552 -->
00:50:23.992the additional 50% of work from all the hard ones left at the end.
00:50:24.472 -->
00:50:27.612It changes. Now they could see them in a simple rule to keep them moving so
00:50:27.612 -->
00:50:32.392you could walk through and see how many were piled up and why and if there was an issue.
00:50:32.612 -->
00:50:36.132Yeah, easy. Yeah, it's easy to see the log jam if you make it visual, right?
00:50:37.212 -->
00:50:41.252If it's not, if those files are buried or stuck in a drawer somewhere where
00:50:41.252 -->
00:50:43.952nobody notices, it looks like everything's great, you know?
00:50:44.392 -->
00:50:47.412Yeah, that's, boy, you're bringing me back to some things I've done.
00:50:47.812 -->
00:50:52.312So, yeah, I think I've unconsciously done some of this just because it made
00:50:52.312 -->
00:50:57.072logical sense to do so. And the output, and we had periods of high demand as
00:50:57.072 -->
00:51:00.372well, and we had to prepare for those and get ahead of it. But that's great.
00:51:00.792 -->
00:51:06.412Yeah, so once people in the office area get the concept and they know,
00:51:06.512 -->
00:51:09.532like, how do I see work coming at me? Where do I know to look at it?
00:51:09.892 -->
00:51:13.812Then it becomes natural. They want to keep it moving. And then you're playing the game.
00:51:14.072 -->
00:51:17.152Then you can tell them, okay, where are the tricks, leverage points,
00:51:17.252 -->
00:51:18.772where do we start, and all that experience stuff.
00:51:19.312 -->
00:51:23.372But it's easy. It takes a couple hours to switch them over to like seeing the
00:51:23.372 -->
00:51:24.712work and then knowing it should flow.
00:51:25.530 -->
00:51:30.410Nice. Great. Well, these are great concepts. Think about an organization that
00:51:30.410 -->
00:51:32.510wants to implement dynamic work design.
00:51:32.870 -->
00:51:37.250Any tips for how to get started, right? So I'm sure I'm going to encourage people
00:51:37.250 -->
00:51:42.110to read the book because I think that gives them a good underlying understanding of how this works.
00:51:42.250 -->
00:51:44.630But where do you start, right?
00:51:44.930 -->
00:51:48.230How do you get started? The first thing I'll say is what not to do.
00:51:48.630 -->
00:51:53.310Do not turn this into a dynamic work design program and initiative that you
00:51:53.310 -->
00:51:56.190roll out and force everyone into and train them, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:51:56.350 -->
00:51:59.250Do not do that. It's not about dynamic work design.
00:51:59.830 -->
00:52:03.270It's like, we don't want to be lean. We don't care about Six Sigma.
00:52:03.510 -->
00:52:06.930We don't care about Toyota production system. We want the business to do better.
00:52:07.550 -->
00:52:11.290So we don't do big programs. In fact, most of them fail.
00:52:11.530 -->
00:52:14.450And here's why. you go learn something
00:52:14.450 -->
00:52:17.290man that really worked we're going to explain how we did this and
00:52:17.290 -->
00:52:20.330we're going to go train people the thing you loved about
00:52:20.330 -->
00:52:23.990fixing it was discovering how to make it work better that's
00:52:23.990 -->
00:52:26.830what motivates you as a person so now you're going to turn it into rules
00:52:26.830 -->
00:52:29.770and say greg i don't care what you're doing here's what you should do now you're
00:52:29.770 -->
00:52:33.610just going back do what i tell you to do just like taylor did you turn those
00:52:33.610 -->
00:52:38.530great ideas into these tayloristic programs which people hate and usually are
00:52:38.530 -->
00:52:42.890not exactly fit for their work it's like just go change everything Start using
00:52:42.890 -->
00:52:44.890hijunker chart instead of line balance.
00:52:45.090 -->
00:52:49.590Start using Kaizen instead of improvement. I mean, it's like stupid. To me, it's crazy.
00:52:50.050 -->
00:52:55.430Why don't we get more approachable? So the first thing we say is we always start with the problem.
00:52:56.327 -->
00:53:02.327Small-scale scientific experimentation is all we do. Now, we take those experiments
00:53:02.327 -->
00:53:03.887to scale and we wire them together.
00:53:04.787 -->
00:53:08.387It's not wordy. You start where the business problem is. You put points on the
00:53:08.387 -->
00:53:10.287board in 30, 60 days fast.
00:53:10.907 -->
00:53:14.407The training should be a quick orientation. Then we're going to go with coaches
00:53:14.407 -->
00:53:17.247and show you how to see this. And then pretty soon you're going to get up on scale.
00:53:17.407 -->
00:53:23.287So the first one is, you know, start with a problem, a small piece of an important
00:53:23.287 -->
00:53:26.687problem. Not moving flowers, not the new parking lot or the cafeteria.
00:53:27.107 -->
00:53:30.847Take a small part of the sales problem, the productivity problem,
00:53:30.967 -->
00:53:34.427the product development problem, the innovation problem, whatever it is.
00:53:34.527 -->
00:53:38.107A small piece of that, run an experiment so you can figure out how to work.
00:53:38.467 -->
00:53:42.707So boil a small bit of water in a thimble. Don't try to boil the ocean at first.
00:53:43.187 -->
00:53:47.167Water boils at whatever temperature. You solve a small problem.
00:53:47.287 -->
00:53:50.667As you know this from Lean, the same problems exist everywhere.
00:53:50.667 -->
00:53:54.247Where its scale is show up slightly differently, but the same dynamics are through an organization.
00:53:54.587 -->
00:53:56.947Go put points on the board. Then think about getting it bigger.
00:53:57.827 -->
00:54:03.067Lead with discovery, not train and roll out. Read with an experiment, not an implementation.
00:54:03.707 -->
00:54:07.347Go figure it out. And when you do that, when you get close enough to the work,
00:54:07.807 -->
00:54:11.847you know this from Lean and Six Sigma and any kind of manufacturing.
00:54:12.047 -->
00:54:16.447When you actually go see what's happening, you find innovation, discovery.
00:54:17.547 -->
00:54:23.127You make work better for people. They like it better. So the same thing is in intellectual work.
00:54:23.587 -->
00:54:26.047Not a program, discovery, lead with discovery.
00:54:26.547 -->
00:54:29.847The third thing is, and this is a little bit different than manufacturing,
00:54:30.067 -->
00:54:34.827is respect the underlying cadence and variation.
00:54:35.487 -->
00:54:37.627Not everything can run like an assembly line.
00:54:38.687 -->
00:54:41.787I guarantee if I've worked with thousands of people all over the world,
00:54:41.927 -->
00:54:44.727as soon as you say process improvement, they think, oh, no, you're going to
00:54:44.727 -->
00:54:45.787turn me into an assembly line.
00:54:45.967 -->
00:54:48.887That's exactly what they think. But it's more like a restaurant.
00:54:49.527 -->
00:54:53.907Okay, you call up a restaurant They say, okay, we have a table for you at eight o'clock.
00:54:54.779 -->
00:54:58.979On Friday, but they don't know who's, who's coming, but they know the turns.
00:54:59.099 -->
00:55:03.019They know about when, and pretty much with, they, they understand the variation
00:55:03.019 -->
00:55:05.119of who's going to call and how long they take to eat.
00:55:05.359 -->
00:55:08.379And they can operate within that variation to nine times out of 10.
00:55:08.519 -->
00:55:10.159You don't have to go sit at the bar and wait for a table.
00:55:10.639 -->
00:55:14.219They understand, they design to the variability. They don't say you can only
00:55:14.219 -->
00:55:19.699come on Tuesday at six o'clock because we have to have five people a day at this restaurant.
00:55:19.879 -->
00:55:22.559And, you know, no, they go, they go with more people show up on
00:55:22.559 -->
00:55:26.179Friday and saturday and they design around that that variability
00:55:26.179 -->
00:55:29.359and cadence it's the out of variance that puts
00:55:29.359 -->
00:55:32.179them into trouble that's it's like deming's like
00:55:32.179 -->
00:55:35.079a normal or not normal variation we have to account for
00:55:35.079 -->
00:55:37.959that variation not try to get rid of it we can get
00:55:37.959 -->
00:55:40.779it lower but so anyway that's that's the third thing and
00:55:40.779 -->
00:55:44.239the fourth thing is system productivity first
00:55:44.239 -->
00:55:47.039yeah i know in hr they're really slow at this
00:55:47.039 -->
00:55:49.719but how's that affecting the business let's go
00:55:49.719 -->
00:55:52.859to the knothole at the business and fix that
00:55:52.859 -->
00:55:56.739and get the and get the flow better okay and
00:55:56.739 -->
00:55:59.519so when the when you get more flow of work with the same
00:55:59.519 -->
00:56:02.179amount of people objectively everyone's more
00:56:02.179 -->
00:56:06.239productive right you do that enough you get everyone's going to be more productive
00:56:06.239 -->
00:56:09.739and you're going to find all the redundancies and the gaps you're going to fix
00:56:09.739 -->
00:56:12.919them and you get everyone more productive we don't care about individual productivity
00:56:12.919 -->
00:56:17.659we care about system productivity the i think the mental model that most managers
00:56:17.659 -->
00:56:21.059have is if everyone's working, then I'm productive.
00:56:23.719 -->
00:56:26.679Okay. But did you ever go to a symphony? Okay.
00:56:27.959 -->
00:56:31.699Okay. When you, they're warming up, they're all tuning up their instruments.
00:56:31.839 -->
00:56:34.579They're all playing, right? And they're playing hard, but what's the sound?
00:56:34.699 -->
00:56:35.799It's garbage. It's noise.
00:56:36.199 -->
00:56:39.899Right. What happens when the music starts? They go to the same pace,
00:56:40.825 -->
00:56:44.045to a leader, and to the same sheet of music.
00:56:44.265 -->
00:56:45.545And it's music now. And if you
00:56:45.545 -->
00:56:48.905watch, sometimes the violins aren't even playing. They're quiet. Right.
00:56:49.125 -->
00:56:51.625But we think everyone's got to be busy all the time. Wrong.
00:56:53.025 -->
00:56:56.785We want to get as close as we can, but we system productivity first.
00:56:57.705 -->
00:57:00.965Right. Right. So systems thinking plays here as well. Yeah.
00:57:01.165 -->
00:57:05.165Yeah. And that's actually, system dynamics is my colleague's specialty.
00:57:05.325 -->
00:57:08.985That's his, works in the system dynamics department. So the system dynamics
00:57:08.985 -->
00:57:12.545thing and then the improvement things really go together.
00:57:12.705 -->
00:57:16.345You can understand complex problems and fix them, not by making them more complex,
00:57:16.505 -->
00:57:19.365but by making them simple now, breaking them down, making them simple.
00:57:20.025 -->
00:57:23.585So anyway, no matter what the big problem is, it's never a big implementation.
00:57:23.585 -->
00:57:26.705It's always start with a small experiment, go from there.
00:57:27.565 -->
00:57:31.825Right, right. It sounds like a lot of incremental improvements and proving out the concepts.
00:57:32.065 -->
00:57:36.145And then people will just naturally learn this and learn how to apply it.
00:57:36.145 -->
00:57:39.965And we'll be able to see things maybe differently and approach these challenges.
00:57:40.425 -->
00:57:46.945And if you put the feedback loops in right, then it's like what happens at Toyota
00:57:46.945 -->
00:57:49.425when it's done the right way and lean when it's done the right way,
00:57:49.785 -->
00:57:51.765is an improvement is in the job.
00:57:52.245 -->
00:57:56.245Like the add-on cord is there. You have to pull it if you have a problem.
00:57:56.365 -->
00:58:00.265And that's how we find what's wrong and what's good and how to make it better.
00:58:00.285 -->
00:58:06.045So it's integrated into the job as opposed to an add-on lean department It's
00:58:06.045 -->
00:58:06.805going to come in and fix you.
00:58:06.885 -->
00:58:09.905No, once we get started, it's in the job. So we know when you're in trouble,
00:58:09.965 -->
00:58:12.885we respond and you're gradually improving. Yeah, exactly.
00:58:13.683 -->
00:58:18.003Fantastic. Well, Don, this has been great. It's been a great preview,
00:58:18.183 -->
00:58:21.383folks. I want you to know the book is out there.
00:58:21.603 -->
00:58:24.303It's called There's Got to Be a Better Way.
00:58:24.843 -->
00:58:26.863And it's Don Kiefer and Nelson.
00:58:27.563 -->
00:58:31.223And where can people get that? Amazon, all the normal outlets?
00:58:31.223 -->
00:58:32.723Yeah, All the Normal Outlets.
00:58:32.943 -->
00:58:35.883It's on Amazon and I think a lot of other places.
00:58:36.503 -->
00:58:40.023We've been finding it in the, you know, when they ask us, what's your target
00:58:40.023 -->
00:58:41.763audience? What do you want to do?
00:58:42.043 -->
00:58:45.863And of course, Nelson, the academics around book publishing all the time gave a very fancy answer.
00:58:45.903 -->
00:58:51.003And I said, I want it on the serious shelf of the airport bookstore.
00:58:51.463 -->
00:58:55.143And so now every time we travel, we go see if it's on. And actually,
00:58:55.243 -->
00:58:57.703it's showing up without us paying to be there. So that's kind of cool.
00:58:58.243 -->
00:59:03.103That's great. That's great. Hey, last thing I like to do on my podcast as we
00:59:03.103 -->
00:59:05.843wrap up here is offer a moment of gratitude.
00:59:06.183 -->
00:59:10.243You know, you're a seasoned veteran, but I don't think you were probably always
00:59:10.243 -->
00:59:15.083as, you know, smart and as effective as you are today, right,
00:59:15.243 -->
00:59:16.263after all this experience.
00:59:16.563 -->
00:59:20.703And is there anybody you'd like to recognize for helping you to grow as a leader
00:59:20.703 -->
00:59:24.723and as an expert in this field of dynamic work design?
00:59:25.630 -->
00:59:29.670There are two things I want to mention. One is Mr.
00:59:29.810 -->
00:59:35.350Oba, Takashi Tanaka, and a bunch of guys at Toyota.
00:59:36.030 -->
00:59:38.870When they saw what I was doing, they actually came and learned from me,
00:59:38.970 -->
00:59:39.930and they invited me to Toyota.
00:59:40.030 -->
00:59:42.850So a lot of the guys that started in the 60s, the old retired guys now,
00:59:43.530 -->
00:59:47.310and they brought me to Toyota, and they opened up to me.
00:59:47.470 -->
00:59:51.010As I said, Don, we love Toyota production system more than we love Toyota.
00:59:51.170 -->
00:59:54.890So anyone's willing to do the work. We'll tell them whatever we need as long
00:59:54.890 -->
00:59:57.250as they go use it, not just like write a book.
00:59:57.370 -->
01:00:01.810So there were a bunch of those guys which just changed my entire life.
01:00:02.650 -->
01:00:08.450But there is one guy who had a pivotal point in my life. His name is Larry Scott. He's passed away now.
01:00:09.170 -->
01:00:13.370When I was working as a supervisor on the shop floor, after a seven-month strike,
01:00:13.430 -->
01:00:16.370I took a job as a supervisor at Westinghouse Airbrake.
01:00:17.130 -->
01:00:22.350And I was going to engineering school, and I was pout on the aisles of the machine shop.
01:00:22.450 -->
01:00:24.99012, 10, 12 hours a day and trying to go to engineering school.
01:00:25.090 -->
01:00:26.310And it got to be a certain point.
01:00:26.450 -->
01:00:31.290I told my wife, I can't do this. I'm going to quit work and just finish up.
01:00:31.350 -->
01:00:33.990I had like a year of school left to do, finish up my engineering degree.
01:00:34.590 -->
01:00:40.870So I turned in my letter of resignation in the morning. I was on third shift.
01:00:40.970 -->
01:00:44.830And so I came in the next day and they said, you have to go see the president, Larry Scott.
01:00:45.230 -->
01:00:47.230I go like, why? Just go up and see him, Don.
01:00:48.010 -->
01:00:51.850So I walk up into his office. he sits me down. He says, well,
01:00:51.950 -->
01:00:53.510what do you want to do? What job do you want?
01:00:54.230 -->
01:00:58.970I go, pardon me. I, you know, I'm frontline supervisor. He's like four layers up, five layers up.
01:00:59.010 -->
01:01:02.390I go like, I just, I just, I don't know if you know this, but I just resigned.
01:01:02.530 -->
01:01:04.190He goes, yeah, I know Don, but what job do you want?
01:01:04.610 -->
01:01:07.390I go, I have no clue what you're asking me, Larry.
01:01:07.870 -->
01:01:11.670He goes, you shouldn't quit and go to school. You need to keep working.
01:01:11.890 -->
01:01:14.090It's going to be way better for your career to keep working.
01:01:14.090 -->
01:01:19.550So what job can you have and would you like in this company so you can keep going to school.
01:01:20.561 -->
01:01:25.141And it was right in the beginning when the plant was half CNC machines and people
01:01:25.141 -->
01:01:29.461from the union rules had a two-week break-in period to run these new machines from manual machines.
01:01:29.761 -->
01:01:32.941And a lot of guys, the programmers would go home on second shift.
01:01:33.421 -->
01:01:36.101And a lot of these guys on second and third shift were just lost.
01:01:36.401 -->
01:01:39.561It'd be something that, and it's on PeaceWorks. They couldn't make money.
01:01:39.861 -->
01:01:43.321So I said, let me go on second shift and help these guys train them.
01:01:43.861 -->
01:01:47.321I write some programs. Mostly I'll troubleshoot when people get stuck and I'll
01:01:47.321 -->
01:01:50.421keep your production running and I'll let them make money. and then when it's
01:01:50.421 -->
01:01:51.701quiet, I'll study. He says, done.
01:01:52.161 -->
01:01:55.021That guy saved my life, saved my career. And that's what I did.
01:01:55.781 -->
01:01:58.881Some days I worked eight hours, some days I worked none. I think I worked on
01:01:58.881 -->
01:02:05.701average like 25 hours and the rest of the time I was able to do my studies and everyone won.
01:02:05.861 -->
01:02:13.021And it was an unbelievable piece of help that he gave me in my young career
01:02:13.021 -->
01:02:14.281and I've never forgotten that.
01:02:14.921 -->
01:02:19.441That's a great story and it's a great lesson for our listeners.
01:02:19.541 -->
01:02:24.021To hear as well, because they clearly saw something in you, you were worth keeping
01:02:24.021 -->
01:02:25.161and they didn't want to lose you.
01:02:25.321 -->
01:02:28.741And, and they found something that, that was a win for both parties,
01:02:28.921 -->
01:02:32.861which is very rare to find something where all the parties win.
01:02:32.881 -->
01:02:35.181That he even knew about me. I didn't even know how he even knew about me.
01:02:36.841 -->
01:02:41.101Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're obviously doing a good job or they wouldn't have made
01:02:41.101 -->
01:02:42.401that move. So good for you.
01:02:42.761 -->
01:02:47.421This has been a fantastic discussion, Don. I appreciate you spending time with
01:02:47.421 -->
01:02:52.581us to, to tell your story and to talk about the book and to talk about dynamic work design.
01:02:53.081 -->
01:02:56.661Thank you very much for being here. And I really appreciate it.
01:02:56.881 -->
01:02:59.681And I look forward to, you know, maybe staying in touch.
01:03:00.381 -->
01:03:05.581It's great to follow the work you're doing. And I'm definitely getting the book. I haven't read it yet.
01:03:05.901 -->
01:03:09.041I'm going to grab that book because it sounds like it's super interesting.
01:03:09.941 -->
01:03:14.601It's got lots of stories in it, Greg. Okay. Yeah. Great. Yeah.
01:03:14.981 -->
01:03:18.001Thanks for having me. It's been great. Stay in touch. And thanks Thanks for
01:03:18.001 -->
01:03:21.581helping spread the word about the work and the book. Awesome. Yeah.
