Michael Vecchione

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It's crazy the way some things have
changed. Years ago. I didn't talk
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to guys like this, cops,
prosecutors, But there was always honor,
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trust and respect until there wasn't and
then came the betrayal. After that,
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me and hundreds of others wise guys
flipped from the fuck going to jail.
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I walked away from John Gottie and
the life on the other side. It
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was a different world. This was
the real trust and loyal They wanted nothing
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but the truth in return from me, of course, testifying in court,
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but that didn't change the fact that
these were the good guys. At times
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they reminded me of my mother and
my father, and I knew it was
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the time to change my life.
I owed it to my bloodline, and
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I owed it to the Gravano family
generations after me. One thing that still
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bothers me to this day. They
blame me for the Frankie the Chico car
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bombing, another lie. This sit
down is different. This time I'm getting
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the real truth from one of the
good guys. He's a real heavyweight in
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law enforcement. Heard he's been face
to face with some of the worst evils
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in the world, and today he's
going to tell me the real story about
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who was involved with the bombing.
He was the guy who interviewed guest Pipe
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and others when they cooperated, and
a whole lot more. Come with me
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to this meeting. Hear it for
yourself. Hi, Michael, sad me
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over here. We're about to do
this, you know, meaning it was
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long in the making. I talked
with Tommy day and know a little bit
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about you, or heard of you
years ago. But now we're finally sitting
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down and having a little chat,
you know, looking forward to it,
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looking forward to me too. You're
doing some great work. I know you're
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doing a few books. It's a
few books that I'm interested in, you
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know. I know you did with
Tommy. You did the book Mob Cops.
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Yeah. Friends of the Family,
right, And I'd be very interested
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in talking about you know a lot
of the things you are talking about this
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child case parts and you know a
lot of this stuff that you're aware of
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enough to hear about that stuff.
Sure, sure, I know that.
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When when I got a message from
your from Anna, we she'd mentioned the
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the case that I that I ended
my other book with, Crooked Brooklyn,
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which was the case involving a dentist
who who was basically who was stealing body
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parts from from cadavers. Yeah,
that's what I said when I heard about
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it. And you know, I
Sam, I've been I went around a
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long time, and and I had
seen a lot of things, and I
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had done a lot of things.
I had never seen or heard of anything
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as as horrible and horrific as this. And and and you know when when
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the prosecutor who first learned about it
came to me, let me take you
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back into how we how we got
this. There was a there was a
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company, uh uh that owned many
funeral homes around the country, and they
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bought a funeral home in Bensonhurst.
And and when the owner, the new
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owner, went to the funeral home
to to look at it and to examine
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it after the purchase had been completed, she stumbled on a room on the
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second floor of the of the funeral
home. And she walked in and in
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there were there were two guys who
were essentially to her, it looked like
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they were operating on a cadaver,
on a on a on a dead person.
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What they were doing is they were
slicing open his legs and arms and
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whatever else they could do to steal
bones out of this body. There their
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boss, this guy Michael mascu Marino, who was this the frocked dentist,
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had cut a deal with funeral directors
all over the Tri state area New York,
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New Jersey, Pennsylvania and UH and
this was one of the funeral homes
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that he had he had cut a
deal with and the deal was this,
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when someone died, the funeral director
would tip off Master Marino that he had
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a fresh body coming into the funeral
home and UH and Master Marino would then
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send his people to do what this
woman saw them doing, which was to
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take the bone and tissue and whatever
else they could they could harvest out of
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the body for the purpose of then
reselling it to companies mainly in the South,
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in the in the southern part of
the United States, who were processing
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these bones, et cetera for use
by reg by doctors and by dentists.
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So, if you've ever had a
dental implant, if you need if you
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if the dentist says that you don't
have enough bone in order to hold the
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implant forever, then you have to
have a bone transplant. And what they
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do is they cut a piece of
the bone and they knit. The bone
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knits, so it goes into the
jaw and and it knits. And when
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it's knitted and it's now settled in
there, then they can put the dental
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implant in. So this this is
what this is what this dentist was doing.
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This was his business. And and
when he lost his license, which
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he did because he was addicted to
the demarole, And and when he was
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operating one day on on someone's mouth, he actually fell asleep in the middle
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of the operation. And that was
the first. That was one of many
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violations that he had had, things
that he had done as a dentist,
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and he lost his license. Now
the guy was making a lot of money,
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sent a lot of money, and
he was living He lived in a
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mansion in Fort Lee, New Jersey. He he had he lived very high.
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You know, he had a very
I guess, the kind of life
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that a millionaire lives. Because he
was a millionaire and he was making money
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from all of his dental procedures.
Now that was gone. He was going
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to lose all of that. So
he had to figure out a way to
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continue to make money and to uphold
his lifestyle. And he knew about you
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know, the bone transplant and the
bone. But he also knew that there
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wasn't many many There wasn't much of
that around. People weren't people weren't giving
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anybody permission to take the bone and
tissue out of their loved one's body before
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they were buried or before they were
cremated. That just wasn't happening. So
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there was a shortage of bone and
tissue for transplant. He recognized that,
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and he started to try to get
permission from families to do this. Legitimately,
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he got nothing, he got zero. So what he did was,
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he felt he fell back on this
procedure of bribing these funeral directors into tipping
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them off to the two dead bodies, and he would send his pull to
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the funeral home and they would they
would ravage the body. Now, the
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question that everybody asks me when I
tell them this is, well, wouldn't
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the family know that when they laid
the body out, because you know,
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it would look emaciated, it would
look, you know, like it would
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not have any you know, any
substance to it. Well, they knew
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that as well, they meaning the
bad guys. So what they would do
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is they bought PVC pipe and they
would substitute the bone that they had taken
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out in the legs and in the
arms with PVC pipe, sewed it back
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up and then it would look like
the arm would be, you know,
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would be like a regular arm.
The other thing they did is when they
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didn't have enough PVC pipe. This
is this is this really my was my
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bolt blowing for me. Is that
they would take whatever garbage they had,
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like they're lun papers or leftover food
or whatever it was that they had,
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and they'd stuff it into the into
the body, and then they would sew
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up the body so that it would
have substance to it. That's what was
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happening when this woman bought this funeral
home. She went over and asked them
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what they were doing, and one
of the guys was very honest, you
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said, we're you know, we're
harvesting bone. Now, she didn't think
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anything of it. She had no
clue that this was being done without families
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permission. And she went over and
she touched the arm of this cadaver and
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it was very very squishy. They
hadn't put the pipe in there yet,
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so she it stuck in her mind
and she remembered that. So the sale
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went through and when she went got
to look at the books of funeral homes,
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she realized that the owner had had
stiffed her for about three hundred grand
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and free paid funeral expenses. And
that's why she went to the police,
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not because of the bone stealing,
because she didn't have any idea that this
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was something that they were doing illegally, so they the police. She went
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to a detective in a local precinct, and the detectives don't know anything about
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this kind of stuff. So they
came to the DA's office and they sat
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down at one of my prosecutors in
the Racket's Division and he listened. And
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he walked into my office one afternoon
and he said, Mike, I got
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to tell you what I have.
And he tells me about this woman,
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what she saw and the three hundred
grand that she was missing. He said,
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but this is what she found them
doing. They were stealing bone and
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tissue out of people's bodies. So
he said to me, what do you
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want me to do. You want
me to investigate the three hundred grand that
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was missing or the body, you
know, the the body parts theft.
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And I said, listen, Josh, let's forget about the three hundred grand.
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Worry about that another time. Let's
do the investigation into the body parts.
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And we started, and we started, and we found since we were
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we were limited to Brooklyn, obviously, we found a thousand cases in Brooklyn
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stand a thousand where they had taken
body parts out of cadavers and sold and
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sold the parts to processing companies for
use later on in people's bodies live,
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people like you. If you needed
a bone transplant, you would get a
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bone from one of these processing companies, and it more than likely had come
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from Mastu Marino's operation. Now,
the other problem was is that Master Marino
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nobody gave him permission, so he
was doing it, you know, just
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illegally, as I said before on
the QT. But he didn't care what
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the person died of, if they
died of HIV or hepatitis or some other
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communicable disease, he didn't care.
He just he took the body anywhere,
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He took the bone anyway, which
was horrific because if you transplant that bone
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into someone later, whatever is in
the marrow could very well flourish again and
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give the person the disease that that
person had died. That The other problem
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is that he was taking bone from
people who are from men and women who
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were in their nineties. Now,
could you imagine if you needed a bone
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transplant for your leg and bone was
from somebody who was ninety ninety five years
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old. I mean, that's obviously
not the kind of bone that you wanted.
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So how did he get away with
that? He would he forged death
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certificates, and he had for the
most part that that certificate read under the
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cause of death that it was a
car accident. Person died in a car
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accident, whereas most of the time
they died of some communicable disease. And
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the other thing he did was that
he forged the signatures of family members on
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permission slips. Now, why do
he need them? He needed the permission
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slip, he needed the that certificate, and he needed the sayample obviously of
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the bone or whatever. And along
with that he had to send a test
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tube filled with the blood of the
cadaver. Okay, that so that the
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processing company would have all of this
in front of them so that they could
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they could figure out whether or not
this is something that they should accept.
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Now how did he get around the
blood? What he did was he would
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steal blood from certain cadavers that he
knew did not have any communicable diseases.
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So let's say he had a body
that he was working on and they did
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die of a car accident. Well, he would make sure that he stole
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as much blood as he could,
kept the test tubes, and then he
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would label them with the name of
the bad of the the you know,
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the the the person who had a
bone or a tissue that was not,
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you know, not very good.
And he would send all of this stuff
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down to the processing companies and they
didn't know anything. They were not the
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wiser. When we broke this,
the FDA, the federal the from Food
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and Drug Administration, issued a nationwide
recall. You know, you used to
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recall cars when something's wrong, but
this was a recall of body parts.
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Essentially, what they said was they
set it out, sent it out and
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said anyone, anybody who had a
bone transplant had to go to their doctor
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to find out where the doctor purchased
the bone from and if it was one
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of these companies that Master Marino was
was doing business with, they were told
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that they had to go back to
the doctor on a regular basis to be
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tested for let's say HIV or for
hepatitis, and it caused it was was
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unbelievable what uproar occurred as a result
of this. And believe it or not,
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Sam, there was one person that
I'm aware of, but I'm sure
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that there were more who actually contracted
the disease. And I don't remember if
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it was if was hepatitis or I
forgot what disease it was. She contracted
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the disease from the you know,
from getting the bone transport. What year
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was this this was and this was
about mid two thousands. It was probably
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around two thousand and eight, seven
eight that we got them. He was
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doing this well before that, and
he was doing it and he was doing
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it in the in the Five Boroughs, he was doing it in Rochester,
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New York, Philadelphia, and he
had he had teams in each of these
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places. The other thing we found
out is that he had cut a deal
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with a prison in Russia so that
when a Russian prisoner died, he would
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get tipped off. He'd send his
people to pick the body up, they
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would bring it to Germany and then
they would do what they were doing in
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that benson Hurst funeral home, taking
the blood, the body parts. Wow,
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The other thing that he had done, and this never got off the
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ground for him because we got him
before that is he had cut a deal
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with a Jewish nursing home, an
old age home on the West side of
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Manhattan, and the deal was that
they were going to tip him off to
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everybody who died in a nursing home
than he was going to have at the
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bodies before they were buried or cremated. You know, it's crazy. I
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you know, back then, I
had implants put in and I got some
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bone transplant. And the weirdest thing
is that, you know, after that,
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a year after that, I think
I started talking Russian a little bit,
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and I started wearing any amaka.
So I think I better check out
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what I got. You better check
it out. Absolutely absolutely well, let
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me tell you, let me tell
you what. You know what, Karma
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really kind of played a role here
at some point at the end when when
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he went he he played guilty.
He you know, he finally had you
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know, he got religion and and
he realized that what he had done to
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all of the families and one one
little sidelight Sammy. When this case was
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on the calendar, every time it
was on the calendar. The courtroom was
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filled with family members of the people
who were who were who were who were?
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You know, the victims of this
thing, of course. And and
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when he went so he and I
remember when he was sentenced, he turned
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around and he made a statement to
the sorry, you know, I'm sorry
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I did this. You know,
he really was in his mind, he
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thinks. I guess that he thought
that he was going to solve everything by
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just simply saying, I'm sorry.
They weren't. They weren't didn't want to,
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didn't want to hear it. They
just you know, they they wanted
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they wanted blood. Judge gave him
fifty four years. Fifty four years,
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so he went in went into jail. He was in prison. About two
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years later. I get someone comes
into the office in my office and said,
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Mike, I got some information about
Mastro Marino. He said, what
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he's in jail. She said he
died. And guess what. He died
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from bone cancer. So that is
that to me? Was karma? Oh
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yeah, absolutely, Calma, absolutely, I know. I just I just
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read an article. I know,
I do a lot of things about the
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open border, about drugs coming across
the border, and I, you know,
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read up on a lot of the
articles. I was reading an article
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not too long ago that a car
got stopped and this guy or something was
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holding a baby and there was a
bottle in the mouth and nipple in the
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mouth, and like they were feeding
the baby. But the dog that they
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walked to the car went got really
strange, jumping up, bucking and growling,
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and so they stopped and they looking
at it. The baby was dead.
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They cut the baby open, and
they put all the drugs in the
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baby's body, you know, sewed
it up, put a little you know,
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in a in a blanket, and
they were smuggling the drugs across in
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a dead baby's body. Now did
they kill the body the kid before,
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who knows. But I mean,
these acts are beyond imaginable, horrific,
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horrific. I mean, no matter
how much of a criminal you are or
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whatever part of life you're in,
the horrific. I mean, these are
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things that you need a lot to
shock me. But these things, with
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your story, what you're telling me
is unbelieved. It's unreal. You know
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what. It sounds like a good
horror movie. Oh yeah, absolutely absolutely.
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I'm thinking about what I'm going to
do, is it's part. It's
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the last chapter actually in that in
the book I did called Crooked Brooklyn.
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As I said before, but I'm
going to I'm thinking about expanding and doing
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a lot more research and maybe doing
a book, an entire book on the
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subject, because there is a you
know, stealing body parts is not something
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that was new there. Back in
ancient times, people used to steal bodies
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so that doctors could learn about the
you know, about the body and how
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it worked in the position of organs
and things of that nature. So there
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were a lot of there were a
lot of thieves, body thieves who raided
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cemeteries to take take bodies to study
and and things of that nature. But
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when you contrast it with a guy
like Master Marino, who was basically doing
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this for money, nothing else,
just for money, and didn't give a
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damn about the families and what he
was doing to the families, it boggles
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your mind that somebody could do that. Let me, let me just tell
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you one last thing about this.
I I had to go. I got
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a call one time to go down
and the interview for a TV show on
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Master Marine about Master Marino's the name
of it was I married a monster.
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I think was the name of the
show, and the subject was Master Marino's
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wife and Master Marino and what he
put her through, et cetera. So
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I walk into this this studio and
it was in the back of an old
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building in Manhattan, and it was
really a kind of a dingy looking place.
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And I walk in and there's a
woman sitting there and she said,
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so I sailo to her, and
she looks up at me. She says,
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you, Mike, thank you on
right. I said, yeah,
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why how do you know that?
She said, I'm Barbara Mastro Marino.
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I am Master Marino's husband wife.
I'm now known as she changed their name
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to Barbara Mastro. And she said
to me, I said, listen,
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you know, I know it was
horrific. I'm sorry about what he did
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to you, and I'm sorry that, you know, this whole thing had
270
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to happen to you, She said, you know what, my life shouldn't
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be Sorry. She says, I'm
happy that you did it, because you
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opened up my eyes to the monster
that I was married to. She's claimed
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that she had no idea what the
source of their money was, and you
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know, Sam, I had no
reason to doubt her. Maybe she didn't.
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And you know the other thing about
him was that he had he was
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also a womanizer too. He had
girlfriends all in all different kinds of places,
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and one of them was someone who
he taught how to open up the
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bodies and steal the and steal the
bones. And he got her hooked on
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dem role as well, and she
got locked up in Philadelphia and and it
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was a it was a horrific situation. I mean just horrific. Everybody who
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was touched by the case was was
you know, it was damaged, absolutely
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damaged. It was. But let's
not let's not do too much negativity on
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being a womanizer, because we could
do that, I think a little bit.
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I only raised it because of you
know, for the fact that missus
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Master Marino had no idea anything of
that husband was doing. You know,
286
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That's that's why that's why I raised
it. So so you know, you
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touched on one other thing, and
I have to raise this with you.
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You touched about the border and trafficking
of bodies and trafficking of drugs. And
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you know, when I was in
Rackets, I started the first state prosecutors
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unit of sex traffic, sex trafficking
unit, and I had several assistant DA's
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dedicated to sex trafficking. And when
we when we started this, people said,
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well, what kind of sex trafficking
is there in Brooklyn? I mean,
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come on, that's crazy. Well, I gotta tell you, Sam,
294
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it was what you've told me about
this. You know, the way
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that they smuggle this this this body
across the border with the with the drugs.
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That doesn't doesn't surprise me in the
least. And I'll tell you why.
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Because we found in many different areas
of Brooklyn women who had been trafficked.
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And in some areas and in some
places they were they were they could
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have been your daughter or my daughter. They so it wasn't only international trafficking.
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These guys who were the pimps and
were the heads of these these sex
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trafficking. Local sex trafficking units would
recruit women who were let's say online at
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CVS buying, you know, buying
uh, you know, cosmetics or buy
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something. And they would talk to
them and and they seemed to have the
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ability to figure out who had a
broken home or who was unhappy at home,
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you know that kind of thing,
because that's who they They they really
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were able to touch, you know, touch a chord with them and and
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and the kids. So so in
addition to we did do international, and
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I'll tell you that in the second. But in addition to that, there
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were kids, and these were girls. These were young girls who were trafficked,
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who were recruited and promised all kinds
of things, money and jewelry and
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and you know, and a place
to live. And you don't have to
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listen to your parents any longer,
you know, you stay with me,
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et cetera. And one group,
believe it or not, was called the
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Horse Gang, one of these sex
trafficking units in Brooklyn, the Horse Gang.
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And I said to the prosecutor who
had the case, to say,
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what what's the deal with this name, the Horse Gang? She said,
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Mike, it's because they say that
they have a stable, a stable of
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women who they traffic throughout the borough, throughout the city, throughout you know,
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throughout the area. They are they
and and we and and they would
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they would also look for if they
had one of let's say, one of
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their friends, one of these women
had a friend who they would they would
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talk to the woman and if she
told them that she had a friend who
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was in the same kind of situation, and she would well then she would
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set up a meeting and they would
wrap this woman up into the into the
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into their their their stable, so
to speak. And it and I we
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we had gotten so much information about
this once we started. In fact,
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we did a we did a promo
and I had Sarah, Sarah Jessica Parker
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and and a and another actress,
Gabaret Siddeby, an African American actress who
329
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was in a movie called Perfect and
and she and I and Sarah Jessica Parker
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did a promo for the sex Trafficking
Unit and we put out the we did
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this, you know, maybe it
was a two minute, three minute thing.
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And then we put the the the
number out, the hotline number which
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we established, Sammy, I gotta
tell you, the hotline number was jumping
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off the hook after we After we
did that, people were, you know,
335
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we got parents calling about my kid
is missing or my kid was is
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strange and has been acting strange,
you know that kind of thing. And
337
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and it was it really opened up, really opened up my eyes. And
338
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I'll tell you one quick story.
We got message from I guess it was
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NBC News was doing a story on
two trafficked women from the from Eastern Europe.
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I think they were either Russian or
or from Czechoslovakia. I don't I
341
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don't remember, but it was Eastern
Europe. And they said, you know,
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we're going the two women escaped and
we're in Atlantic City and Nbcnew went
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down to interview them because they were
going to use them as part of this
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this show. And they tipped us
off. They said, you know,
345
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we'll be there Wednesday night, for
instance, you guys come down mon Thursday
346
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morning and we'll well, they'll be
there and you can you can talk to
347
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them, because they opened up the
NBC News. Well, NBC told them
348
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that we were going down there on
Thursday, and when we got there on
349
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Thursday morning, they were gone.
They were gone. They were so frightened
350
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of having and and law enforcement.
You know, in Russia law enforcement is
351
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bad. I mean, there are
a lot of bad parts of it here
352
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too, but in Russia, you
know, if you have the government coming
353
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after you, that's that's a real
problem. So they couldn't distinguish. They
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didn't see us as being people who
could help them. They they saw us
355
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as people maybe who could cause more
problems for them. And one of the
356
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other things that that we found that
that these guys did, whether they were
357
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local, whether they were more to
national, they would immediately take the passport
358
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of these these young women immediately as
soon as they were they got them into
359
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.440
the apartment where they were going to
put them up and give them money and
360
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give them drugs, give them jewelry, whatever. They took their passport because
361
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they had a woman who was another
Eastern European. She had come to the
362
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United States and not trafficked. She
she she was grabbed here in this country
363
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and and brought into this this unity. I forgot the name of it.
364
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And I did a little research on
the border, and I've been doing research
365
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:42.240
on drugs coming in, all kinds
of things popping up. Now that a
366
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:47.000
lot of these people, you know, the women, they'll take their kids
367
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across and they make a deal with
them. In other words, we put
368
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you in. We know somebody's going
to pick you up on the other side,
369
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we know what states you're going to
be in, we know what name
370
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you're going to be using, and
we'll get back to us U os X
371
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:04.480
dollars. Absolutely, we get back
to you. You're going to work work.
372
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They're pimping them off, so that's
how they're paying off their debts and
373
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stuff like that. And now they'll
you know, if they don't pay and
374
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they don't do the right thing,
they'll kill them. They don't absolutely,
375
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you know, these are smart women
that broke They're used to the violence,
376
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so they know this is not just
an idle threat. So they're doing that
377
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as well. And they're also opening
up small little cartels of men all over
378
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:34.480
the United States. So when they
come in, they don't come in with
379
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.839
drugs, but they go to a
state. Let's say they go to Ohio
380
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.680
and they set up a little crew
people that are coming in so when they
381
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.000
smuggle the drugs in, now they
get in touch with him. They go
382
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:52.200
right to Ohio with the side wall
and stuff like that. What bothers me
383
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.000
a lot. You're an honest guy, and you're an honest cop and its
384
00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:02.359
prosecutor, and you're dumbfounded with some
of the stuff, which is amazing to
385
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:07.119
me. And you're a good man
obviously. But the government knows this.
386
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.000
This is going on. If I
if I could know it, I'm sealed
387
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.200
over here in Arizona. I know
what's going on. I'm hearing it from
388
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.880
people, even some Mexican people who
are good people come across. I know
389
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.960
some Mexican people, and they're telling
me about it. I won't reveal their
390
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:26.759
names or anything like that, but
they're telling me about it. And then
391
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:29.359
so I said, listen, there's
very little I could do. I know,
392
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:33.119
I got a show. I'll talk
about it a little bit. And
393
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:34.920
so, and that's what I'm trying
to do is open people's eyes. But
394
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:40.880
I know the government, the news
media, it's open. What kills me
395
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.720
is that how is it not being
stopped? Why are they not closing the
396
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:49.000
border? Why are they not stopping
this giving it some sort of a try
397
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:53.319
to stop it. I have the
same question, Sam. I look at
398
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.640
this and I and I read a
lot of this, and I do watch
399
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.799
various shows, not only once side
of you know, of the of the
400
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.799
the issue, but as much as
I can gather you know, and get
401
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.720
into into reading. And and I
say the same thing, because a lot
402
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:11.680
of what I read about, you
know, hits home because we were finding
403
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:15.599
the you know, the results of
that, which are the women who had
404
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.160
who had escaped because they couldn't come
to us if they were still part of
405
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.480
it, they would they had escaped
and they and there were various ways that
406
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.240
they were able to escape. Sometimes
these guys would trust them and they would
407
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.440
say, Okay, you go out
and do what you have to do and
408
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.480
then come back. And and instead
of that, they would make a call
409
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:34.799
and and and they would go to
to the cops or call us on the
410
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:40.720
hotline, and we would go pick
them up. The we we One particular
411
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:45.079
instance about this is we get we
got a tip about a massage parlor in
412
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:51.359
Sunset Park and and the massage parlor
was was basically a whorehouse. I mean
413
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.720
that's that's what it was. And
and it was manned by Asian women.
414
00:30:53.759 --> 00:31:00.680
This was an Asian an Asian sex
trafficking not Asian sex traffic freaking group,
415
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:06.880
but the people who were trafficked we
were Asian women. And what what this
416
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:10.400
woman told me, and I interviewed
to myself, is that they would get
417
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:12.359
when they first got to the United
States, they were told that they were
418
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.200
going to have this big job ready
for them. These women, some of
419
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:21.160
them were professionals, and when they
got here, they were sent to you
420
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.519
know, to hovels, these places
to live, and maybe six seven eight
421
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:30.119
people to a room. And then
every morning they would have to report downstairs
422
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:36.680
wherever they were onto a bus and
they drove them into Sunset Park in Brooklyn,
423
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.160
and then the women get off the
bus and at the curb. At
424
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.960
the curb when they got off,
they would gather let's say five or six
425
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.160
of them. They would say,
okay, you go with that person,
426
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:51.720
and they take them off. Those
people were going to let's say restaurants.
427
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:56.119
Then you go. Then another group, you go with those that guy that
428
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.680
they were going to the sweatshops,
you know they're so closed and Unset Park.
429
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:02.880
Then there was another group and the
woman I will talk to was with
430
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.920
this group. She was going to
the whorehouse. And she worked out of
431
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:13.119
work all day. And I said
to her, how how many tricks did
432
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.519
you turn every day? She said, in the morning sometimes you know,
433
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:19.599
ten, twelve, fourteen, and
then by the time I'm done at night,
434
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.160
you know, maybe twenty twenty five. And she was exhausted. I
435
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.240
said, well what happened? Then? Well, they would take us back
436
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:27.680
to where did you eat? Or
they would buy us, you know,
437
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.160
a little bit of stuff to eat, and they would get me back into
438
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.559
into the put me back into the
place. The next day. She said,
439
00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:38.319
if I got lucky, I would
get sent to the restaurant, or
440
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:43.519
if I got lucky, I get
sent to the sweatshop. And the point
441
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.680
of it is exactly what you're saying. She had to pay off the people
442
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:52.599
who who brought her into the country, and yeah, and they were terrified
443
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:58.359
if they were to skip out.
They were terrified because back home, the
444
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.680
bad guys knew where the family was
and what they would do to the family.
445
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:05.880
So it's the same thing. It's
exactly the same thing. And I
446
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.440
wish I had the answer to your
question about why the government isn't doing something
447
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:12.759
about it. I have no clue. I just, you know, I
448
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:15.720
just I just got another thing.
And I was really A guy gave it
449
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:21.319
to me and showed me an article. You know, when I opened it
450
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.599
up, it was it's not an
article. It's more like a little book.
451
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:28.920
Decided there was all very pretty women
and stuff like that. And I
452
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:32.839
said, what's this? He said, those are women from Ukraine right now
453
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:39.720
present day. Their families were killed, they were alone, they're they're professional.
454
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:43.319
Some of them, they're not stupid, they're not you know, got
455
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:47.839
a rats, they're regular women.
Yeah, And so now I could bring
456
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:52.759
her in and under a visa of
some sort that I'm going to marry her
457
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:59.000
so she can get into this country
for two years and get a citizenship in
458
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:00.920
this and that and the other thing. And so I said, well,
459
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.799
I mean they can do that right
on the borders. They said no,
460
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.840
no, this is about sex.
So you would turn around, tell her
461
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:13.159
this, get her in, say
you're going to marry her, You've signed
462
00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:16.840
some papers, she comes in,
she could stay here, you use her
463
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:22.639
and whatever way sexually. She's going
to know that, and then she can
464
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:29.199
apply on her own, maybe she
meets somebody legitimately. I said, this
465
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.320
is so bloodthirsty. I got a
door, I got daughters, I got
466
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:36.480
granddaughters. I mean, this is
so when you do something like this,
467
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:38.599
you know, I could see guys
running around. You're a little bit of
468
00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:42.079
a womanizer, your cheek, you
do things. But I mean, this
469
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:47.679
is so brutal to do this to
women, young young women. You destroyed
470
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:51.480
it by the time this woman is
thirty five, forty years old, and
471
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.840
these were young girls twenty three,
twenty five whatever. Get trying to get
472
00:34:53.880 --> 00:35:01.159
out of Ukraine. I mean to
people who take inverted of human life like
473
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.320
this, I mean, you have
one way you would go after them and
474
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.239
arrest work and arrest them. Me. I have this thinking, mafioso,
475
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:12.840
we would turn around and we would
kill people like this. You don't even
476
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:15.280
deserve to live. This is what
you're gonna do. You're not even a
477
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.280
human being anymore. Well, money, money, you know, make you
478
00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:23.119
do some things. I mean,
I've done crooked things in my life,
479
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:27.719
but it never imagined anybody coming to
me, you know. I'll give you
480
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:30.440
one quick story. A guy came
to me, one of my guys and
481
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:35.599
my crew, and he said,
Sam, he says, this guy wants
482
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:40.840
to pay twenty five thousand for us
to kill his wife. So I says,
483
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:46.559
well, tell him we won half
twelve thousand, five hundred upfront,
484
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:52.000
and we'll get to the other twelve
thousand, five hundred after it's done.
485
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:53.519
He said, I thought, we
don't do that. I said, no,
486
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:58.119
we're not. We're not going to
do it. I said, we're
487
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:00.920
gonna take the money and we're gonna
rob them. And he did not the
488
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.159
cops and tell him listen, I
paid twelve thousand, five hundred for them
489
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.159
to kill my wife and they robbed
me. They didn't do it. Let
490
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.519
him go. Tell the cops.
Then yeah, you know, so I'll
491
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:15.559
get I'll press them for robbing the
money. But you know, I tell
492
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:21.719
this fucking bum, there's a divorce
court exactly. So people like this just
493
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.920
turn my stomach, you know,
uh right, I got a daughter.
494
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:29.119
Every time I heard stories like this, I think of my daughter, speak
495
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:31.840
of my granddaughter, and little you
know, I got a grand goa to
496
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:36.599
little little Brett five years old,
six years or whatever she is running around,
497
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:38.840
and I say, I mean,
how do they do these things?
498
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:45.239
These young uh sammy? They would
they would come to us, and they
499
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.519
were, you know, they were
pathetic and and pathetic in the sense that
500
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:52.599
they had fallen for the trap of
you know, the guys gonna give me
501
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:54.039
money, he's gonna give me jewelry's
gonna you know, tell you and I
502
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:58.360
don't have to listen to my parents
any longer until they realized what they were
503
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.000
Basically, they don't know that,
you know, you look at your parents.
504
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.960
I don't blame these kids. I
mean I feel sorry for them because
505
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.679
they're dumb. They think this is
a way out or something like that.
506
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:14.519
But what they're doing is destroying themselves. And it takes sometimes years to realize
507
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.119
that and so on and so forth, especially when you get to the youth,
508
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:22.719
young kids eighteen, twenty twenty one, whatever, they're too young to
509
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.960
really understand. You know, it
looks good now. They got all kinds
510
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:34.719
of things, paypals or friends,
TikTok things like that. Is it?
511
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.480
You know? The young girls are
just you know, gorgeous. They're bouncing
512
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:44.840
around if naked. I mean,
but I guess that's the time and age.
513
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:49.920
It's not as disgusting as the other
stuff. But the whole thing,
514
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:54.639
our morals and everything. You know. I heard a speech by Putin,
515
00:37:54.800 --> 00:38:00.840
President Putin, and he was talking
about the United States and how we lost
516
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:06.000
our morals and you know, and
we're said, you know, we lost
517
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:09.639
our compass in life, and we're
self destructing. And that's the thing,
518
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:14.800
you know, with freedom and speech, we losing all different kinds of things.
519
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:19.920
I talked to my friend Michael Francis, you know is Michael and we
520
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:22.920
talk on occasion, we talk like
this, you know, like we're talking
521
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:27.039
and we don't film it, but
we're talking about it, and we're like,
522
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.000
you know, it's hard to believe
that two gangsters could sit down and
523
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:36.000
say what the hell is going on? But it's truthful because we got he's
524
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:38.840
got seven kids, he's got a
bunch of daughters, and we talk about
525
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:43.519
this stuff. It's crazy, damn
that there does come a point in your
526
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.800
life, and it came for you
where you said, you know, enough
527
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:50.119
is enough. I have to go
a different way. And and you did.
528
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.400
You know you did. And you
should be proud of yourself for going
529
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.400
a different way. And and France
easy the same way. You know.
530
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.519
I mean, there comes a point, as I said, where you say,
531
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.480
you know this is I recognize that
what I was doing is not the
532
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:06.519
right way to live. And I
got to live a different way. And
533
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:08.760
and and you have, you know, and you you made it. You
534
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:14.280
made it in terms of you made
it out and and I sometimes it would
535
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:15.800
seem to me the hardest part is
to stay out, you know. It's
536
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:21.679
to make sure that you don't fall
back into into into that problem, uh,
537
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.679
into the way it used to be. But I don't see it with
538
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:27.239
you. I think that you're going
to be you know, you'll you'll be
539
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.320
okay with this and and it's it's
something which you should be very proud of.
540
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.480
Yeah, I got out the first
time out of prison. I did
541
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.880
five years, and then I bumped
into you know, some bullshit. I
542
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:44.360
forgot what they called on the pills
of ecstasy ecstasy. Yeah, and I
543
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:49.119
gave them a little money. I
really wasn't involved, and I got sucked
544
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.920
into it. My name, all
this bullshit. They hyped it up,
545
00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:55.840
and uh and I got a twenty
year sentence, and that really woke me
546
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.480
up all together. That I won't
go near nothing. I tell people.
547
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:01.320
I tell my account and I says, listen, when you do taxes,
548
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:07.519
there's a line and you know gets
a gray area. Don't even go near
549
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:10.119
the line, even if I yeah
a little extra in taxes, don't He
550
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:13.559
says, Hey, I mean I
wouldn't go near the line anyway, you
551
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:16.400
know. So I'm I want to
make sure I don't do nothing wrong whatsoever
552
00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:22.559
in life. And I changed my
life. I talk to some kids about
553
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.360
you know that. You know,
some kids talk to me, and I
554
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:29.360
get parents talk to me. I
talk to their kids sometimes, and uh,
555
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.199
you know, I don't know how
to say like nice things to him,
556
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.400
you know, don't do this,
don't do that because they'll call me
557
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.119
a hypocrite. So I tell them, listen, you want to be me,
558
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:38.079
you want to be sending in the
boat. You want to be a
559
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:43.599
gangster? Good I got twenty two
years in prison. You're going to kill
560
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.360
your friends or they're gonna kill you. I was shocked while stare once,
561
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.320
yeah, good good luck, check
off, Go ahead, do it,
562
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:54.079
enjoy it because that's your life.
That's what's gonna happen to you. So
563
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.760
you know, if you want to
be a gangster. God And I saw
564
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.039
a guy who did the same thing
as I did. He was in the
565
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:07.320
jail cell and he was talking to
people just like we are, and he
566
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:10.159
says, listen, bro, hey
be a gangster. Deal drugs a lot
567
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:13.760
of money. You don't have to
pay tax, you don't have to do
568
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:15.960
nothing. But I'm going to see
you over here. You're coming here with
569
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:21.039
me. You had no question about
it in the jail cell. So that's
570
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.280
hard love. You're selling hard love. That's the way to do it,
571
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:28.320
because the reality is that's what's gonna
happen to You're going to screw up your
572
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:30.559
life. You're going to screw up
your family's life, You're going to screw
573
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.719
up everything. But there was a
team they did a whole they did a
574
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:37.000
whole TV show about it was called
scared straight, right, and they would
575
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.519
have people who would who would sit
with these and and I I have a
576
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:43.599
friend, I have a guy that
I represented when I was doing defense work,
577
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:49.840
who who who was charged with a
murder? And and it was the
578
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.559
worst case you could possibly imagine in
terms of from the prosecution's point of view.
579
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:57.760
It was two junkies who were who
were the witnesses and and and it
580
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.719
was it was terrible and and it
was during the time, however, when
581
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:06.760
there was so many murders in Brooklyn
that you know, anybody who was who
582
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:09.079
was charged with murder for the most
part, unless there was no case,
583
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:14.079
the jury was going to find him
guilty, right. So this but this
584
00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:19.159
one particularly irked me because the one
of the witnesses who was in this in
585
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:23.320
this apartment where this incident occurred,
she was on the witness stand and I
586
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:25.760
said to her, do you see
the guy who pulled the trigger? Is
587
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:28.840
he here in the courtroom with you? Because I knew what her answer was
588
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:30.480
going to be, And she looked
around, she looked at my client,
589
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:34.800
and she said, no, he's
not here. Jury's still convicted this guy.
590
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.920
Amazing to me, he did thirty
three years Sam and he wrote me.
591
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:45.559
He wrote me all the time,
and he's now out and and he's
592
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:50.039
been trying to, you know,
to get his conviction overturned. We've gone
593
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:53.440
through all kinds of things to do
it. I've I've signed out for David's
594
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:57.440
I've testified, I've done all kinds
of things. And the DA's office was
595
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:00.480
wrong. They were wrong. They
they should have turned And the other thing
596
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:02.559
they didn't do is they didn't tell
me that that there were two guys who
597
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:07.199
had been arrested for the murder before
my guy was arrested, and they let
598
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.239
them go, and that was were
the two murderers, by the way.
599
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:15.639
And my point is that this guy
now spends a lot of time talking to
600
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.239
people in his He's an African American
guy and he was brought he was raised
601
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:24.039
in the Kanarsi projects, and he
now spends time talking to kids just like
602
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:30.320
you said, you know, in
terms of trying to people send their kids
603
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:31.519
to him. They sit, you
know, maybe on a bench in the
604
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:36.239
park and he talks to them and
to do exactly what you're talking about in
605
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.639
terms of scaring them straight or straightening
them out, because there's only one place
606
00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:44.360
that they've got two places, jail
or the grave. That's where you know,
607
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.119
it's gonna where they're gonna wind up. And I'm doing working on things
608
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:52.119
with prison reform and stuff like that. You know, I had a I
609
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.119
was in the Ada supermax for you
know. Yeah, I did about six
610
00:43:55.199 --> 00:44:00.199
and a half years in the whole
and I was bounced around. But I
611
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:04.480
did some time in the supermax and
the warden got in touch with me,
612
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:07.840
retired, got in touch with me, sent me a letter, and I'm
613
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.199
gonna do something with him, a
little conversation. I'm talking about prison reform.
614
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.440
I'm looking to get some people together
and uh, I'm working on that
615
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:20.440
too. You know, it's not
everybody's got to get out, but there's
616
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:23.360
you know, laws, the de
Rico law is a tough floor to be.
617
00:44:23.960 --> 00:44:28.119
You know, a lot of guys
in prison would come over, especially
618
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:30.639
a couple of black guys friends of
mine, come over, Sammy, what
619
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.760
about this case? See if you
could take a plea? Why I don't
620
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:38.679
think I could know. I said, listen, you're gonna go. You're
621
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.039
gonna you don't have money, right, No, well you're gonna get a
622
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:46.719
quarter. You know, attorney and
not the best attorney in the world,
623
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:52.880
and you're gonna get some ex cop, drunken, irish guy who's your investigator,
624
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.320
not the best investigator in the world. Think about the government now that
625
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:02.599
if I have four or five up
guys like yourself who are smart attorneys,
626
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:07.039
you're gonna get the FBI as the
investigators for them. You take, you're
627
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:12.239
gonna win, and you're gonna get
the max. They're gonna kill you when
628
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:15.960
you when you get sentenced. So
my advice to you is see if you
629
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:22.199
could take a plate, reduce it
down whatever. Yeah, but the whole
630
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:30.480
court system is they need prison reform. And I did twenty two years of
631
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.199
my life in prisons. There's never
you don't be I'm not. I was
632
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:38.159
never taught anything. I was taught
how to live in prison, and I
633
00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:44.159
was got tougher, not weaker,
you know, so you're not learning nothing.
634
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:50.480
Prison reform should be out there.
Sentences should be lowered. The biggest
635
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:53.519
thing that struck me I got down
in twenty seventeen. I didn't have a
636
00:45:53.559 --> 00:46:00.119
fucking penny and I had four hundred
and thirty dollars and I live with my
637
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:04.639
daughter. She allowed me to live
with her, live with her, and
638
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.239
I went for food stamps, social
Security. I went to get the state
639
00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:13.559
to pay for insurance. I couldn't
get it. I was a soldier in
640
00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:17.679
the military, so I got the
VA and uh, it's so tough.
641
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.880
When the when the housing market came
up, they offered her a lot of
642
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:24.679
money for a house and I said
take it. She said, you're living
643
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:28.079
here. I said, I'll get
it. I'll live in the office and
644
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:31.320
then I'll get an apartment. Okay, okay, So she took it.
645
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:36.159
So I moved into the office and
I started to go look for an apartment.
646
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.039
Now I'm still on parole. I
got a lifetime supervisor release, and
647
00:46:40.039 --> 00:46:45.559
I couldn't get an apartment. First
of all, that the investigations. If
648
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:51.599
it's o C organized crime right away, you're not going to get it them.
649
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:53.519
I'm sending the bull on top of
it. Yeah, they said,
650
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:58.079
I forget it. You're not gonna
So I've been living in an office for
651
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:01.280
a while and not you know,
I could get apartments in really low level
652
00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:06.760
places in a really shit neighborhood,
which I don't want to because I wind
653
00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:10.800
up getting in trouble somehow. So
and I say to myself, if I
654
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:17.840
didn't have family and some friends who
came to me, some FBI guys and
655
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:25.679
some ex cops and a little help
and a good parole officer. Be in
656
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:31.320
trouble again. What about these people
who don't have that exactly, they're gonna
657
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:36.880
come out you know this. Then
you're gonna tell a guy who's the drug
658
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.719
deal od whatever he was dealing with, five eight, ten thousand dollars a
659
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:44.840
week he's making, and you want
him to go flip Hamburgers in McDonald for
660
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:46.760
fourteen dollars an hour or thirteen dollars
an hour, whatever the hell they get
661
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:51.920
paid. Not gonna work, No, no, and that's why there's recriticism,
662
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.719
and they can't vote, they can't
have a gun, they can't get
663
00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.000
a place to live. I mean, you tell you're taking away too mauch
664
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:06.079
anything. There's no opportunities, absolutely
trade leveans that they could learn in prison,
665
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:07.519
but they don't give you nothing.
Well, you're going to have an
666
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:13.360
opportunity if you get this ex warden
to you know, perhaps what you say,
667
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.199
if you say just what you said
now, it's going to have an
668
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:19.719
impact, I believe. I mean, I think that it depends on who's
669
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.519
going to listen to it. But
if it's if it goes to the right
670
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:24.000
people, I think you will have
an impact. I think that, I
671
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:28.679
really do. I mean, look, you you've lived it. It's not
672
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:30.280
like you're making this up or it's
coming out of a fairy to you know.
673
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:32.880
I lived it. Yeah, no
doubt about it. I lived there.
674
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:37.039
What's the woman's name. Yeah.
I was trying to reach out to
675
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:43.440
Canvas Owen Owens. She's very you
know black woman, Yes, very smart.
676
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:45.960
She she's into prison. I'm trying
to reach her. If she would
677
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:50.119
come on the show with me,
with the warden and a few guy,
678
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:53.599
maybe you are a couple of people
who really know about the life and uh
679
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:58.880
and talk about prison reform, you
know. And he said, this guy
680
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.280
was the you know, the ward
of the ADX. You would notice.
681
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:05.639
I mean that's the toughest prison in
the country. If you're getting that job,
682
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.280
you're a special guy. Yeah,
he was a special guy. He
683
00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:13.239
really tried to do the right thing. And now when I talked to him,
684
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.480
he said, hey, I mean
I was there. It's too harsh.
685
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:21.239
I mean, you're better off getting
sentenced to death than being in the
686
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.840
ADX supermax because it's just you know, you've got to be punished for your
687
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:30.639
crimes, no doubt about it.
But this is in humane. It's to
688
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:34.159
the point that it's in humane.
And if people are comfortable with that,
689
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:38.400
I mean people probably don't know how
Oh they don't. They don't. And
690
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:43.199
listen, I was. I was
a prosecutor for thirty years, some thirty
691
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:47.760
some odd years until I had and
I had Greg Scarpa with me, Gregory
692
00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:52.480
Scarf, your kid, the son
with me for a year talking to me
693
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.599
about a case in which involving an
FBI agent, he was key. We
694
00:49:55.639 --> 00:50:00.840
took him out of Supermax, and
when the guys who brought him in sat
695
00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:02.199
down with me afterwards, they said, Mike, you're not gonna believe this.
696
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:06.599
He didn't know. He didn't know
that there were cell phones. He
697
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:08.960
had no idea. He had never
had a soda for for as long as
698
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:13.079
I didn't know there was cell phones. I mean, I mean, hen
699
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:15.920
but I had never used it.
It was like he had been on the
700
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:19.440
moon and came down to Earth.
And then I got to talk to him,
701
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:22.719
and I and I learned about how
he was in his you know,
702
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.320
in his self or you know,
for twenty three out of the twenty four
703
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.639
hours he had an hour out and
he said, in Mike, I didn't
704
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:31.320
go out into any yard. They
put me in this little other, this
705
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:35.400
other small room where I could just
you know, kind of walk around.
706
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.320
So I it was it opened up. It really did open up my eyes
707
00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:42.079
to you know, to what was
I was in there with him, you
708
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:44.719
know, I was in I didn't
know that. I didn't was when I
709
00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.920
was in the idea supermats, I
was with him, uh and I was
710
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:54.800
with guest Pipe was in there to
yeah, same together at the same He
711
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:59.639
told me. He told me the
story about how he used to communicate with
712
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:01.800
gas Pipe. I think they were
on either side, and they used to
713
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:07.119
talk with through using the toilet paper, roll the middle of it and use
714
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.920
it. It's like it's like a
microphone into the into the the sink,
715
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.199
so that the sinks and the pipes. So you're aware of that. My
716
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:19.800
girl was listening to you right now. She's laughing a little bit because I
717
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.840
told this story before and they said, what how did you do that?
718
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:28.840
You know, I said, it's
amazing, So you know, it was,
719
00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:30.800
it was amazing. Comes into my
office. The first thing he says
720
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:34.960
to me, Greg, when I
when when Gregory when when we sat down,
721
00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.079
he said, Mike, before I
forget, you got to Sammy Uh
722
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:42.079
not Sammy uh gas Pipe wants you
to go see him. He wants to
723
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.639
talk to you. So I said, okay. Now he had at that
724
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:49.440
point he had moved to uh to
Butner, North Carolina. He was in
725
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:51.880
the prison hospital. But I said, well, how did how did you
726
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:54.360
were you able to communicate with him
while you were in jail. And he
727
00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:59.400
tells me the story about the toilet
paper rolls and how they how they talk
728
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:02.599
to one and another. And he
also told me about how he was also
729
00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:07.280
passing. He was in the middle
of two Muslim terrorists and he was able
730
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:13.000
to They were passing information to each
other through him, and he was able
731
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:15.719
to. You know, he kept
and he gathered it together and he kept
732
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:19.119
it and he he he he had
used it at one point, but not
733
00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:22.679
to his advantage unfortunately. But he
told me about that. He told me
734
00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.360
about the I said, you're kidding
me. He said, no, that's
735
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:29.159
how we were able to communicate.
Sace. You put the thing in the
736
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.599
in the drain and you listen or
you talk, and that's how you blow
737
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:37.800
the water out. Right. It
blows it out and the things that attached
738
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:40.599
and you can hear it. It's
almost like a whisper, but you can
739
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:45.440
hear each other, right, right, That's what That's how we knew.
740
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:50.199
That's how he that's how we Gaspipe
was able to tell him to have me
741
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:52.400
go see him when I and I
did. I went down to North Carolina
742
00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:57.119
twice to talk to him after.
In fact, when I walked in,
743
00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:00.440
I asked him if he had read
Friends of the Family and he said,
744
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:02.440
yeah, I did. I said, so, he goes it's about ninety
745
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:06.559
eight percent accurate. So this some
things in there that aren't right, you
746
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:08.960
know, I said, okay,
I'll take ninety eight percent. This is
747
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:12.840
a good point. Yeah, it
was good. It was a little good.
748
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:15.559
So so hey, listen, I
got you know, you were talking
749
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:21.559
about some things that you were talking
about in terms of the jail also pertain
750
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.519
to it. And I think you
obviously have and you have experience with this
751
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:30.199
as well, and that's witness protection, right. Bigness protection is a the
752
00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:34.039
guy I wrote my latest book about
is it was a Banato hitman. His
753
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:37.360
name was Rons's Folly, Luigi Rons's
Folly, and and for you for your
754
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:40.039
listeners. The name of the books
Homicide is by Business, and I would
755
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:44.920
suggest from what I heard from people
who've read it, they love the book.
756
00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:47.159
I mean, it's it's really an
interesting story. This this guy.
757
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:55.000
When he ultimately decided to cooperate,
he was put into witness protection and and
758
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:59.199
you know, Sam, he he
couldn't he couldn't live. He couldn't live
759
00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:02.239
that way, he told me.
And I found out that they moved them
760
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:06.760
every couple of months. He was
in another hotel, then he was in
761
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:10.480
a motel, and it was all
in places like in the Midwest where he
762
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:15.400
had no connection. He guy from
Catania, Sicily into Brooklyn, into New
763
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:19.519
York. He was traveling around the
country in La Miami, the places like
764
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:22.679
that. Now he's going to all
of these places that and living, trying
765
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.280
to live in these places without any
kind of job. I mean, he
766
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:30.039
didn't even have a job. He
depended on whatever the government was giving him.
767
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:32.440
And at the end of the day, Sam, he killed himself.
768
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:37.719
He just couldn't, he couldn't take
it anymore. And you know, so,
769
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:40.840
yeah, when I got out,
you know, the government was begging
770
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.440
me to go in because I didn't
want to go in I had money,
771
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:46.760
I had family. I didn't want
to go in, but they begged me.
772
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.639
My first bid I got five years
with the nineteen murders. So they
773
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:55.360
said, Sam, you're gonna make
the government look bad. Give them something.
774
00:54:55.880 --> 00:55:00.840
So I agreed. I did get
treated good. When I was with
775
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:04.159
the agents, I was treated good. So I says, I'll give you
776
00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:06.639
another year. I'll go in,
you could change my name, you could
777
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:09.599
do everything. One year and I'm
out. And I did eight months in
778
00:55:09.639 --> 00:55:15.800
air. And it is a bit
because you have no connection with your family.
779
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:21.760
Your family, you're nothing. So
it's really difficult to live that way.
780
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:25.639
And everything you do you're living a
lie constantly. And how I got
781
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:30.119
out of it. I met some
woman in there. I'm gonna get in
782
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:34.360
trouble with this, but I met
some woman and played around a little bit,
783
00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:39.719
and at the end she recognized me. Something on television came out and
784
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:43.800
she recognized me. So they came. They said, we got to move
785
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:45.840
change your name again. We're gonna
move you. I said no, no,
786
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:50.000
I don't care if she knows,
it don't matter to me. I
787
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:52.800
said, I'm not moving. I
promised you a year. I'm in eight
788
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:58.360
months already I'm leaving. No,
you got to change. I'm not changing.
789
00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:01.119
You can't force me to stay here. So they can't, so I
790
00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:04.079
said, He says, then you
got to sign out. Oh good,
791
00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.360
give me the paper. I signed
out if they once and I went to
792
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:10.800
Arizona where my family was, and
I went. But the pro I don't
793
00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:14.920
know how you could stay in the
program. I mean some guys I know,
794
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.800
some guys who are friends of mine
who changed their name, started alive,
795
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:23.239
started a business, and they lived
that way. They wanted to come
796
00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:25.599
on and do a thing with me, but they didn't want to come out
797
00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:30.079
of the shadows. And you know, because they have a business. Or
798
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:34.239
if they would do something with me
and it's on TV live, the people
799
00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:36.760
will say, oh my god,
you know who he is really? You
800
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:39.559
know. So I understand that I
get it, but I still, you
801
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:45.079
know, I talk with them occasionally
and stuff and so. But the witness
802
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:50.639
protection problem is a tough nut to
let me. It got so bad for
803
00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:54.519
Luigi, so bad that he was
a cooperator. He couldn't take it,
804
00:56:55.039 --> 00:57:01.079
the witness protection and at some point
he just that he was going to go
805
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:06.159
back to the Banano people and and
he got the lawyer on the phone and
806
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:08.960
said, basically, I'm going to
recant what I told, what I swore
807
00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:14.280
to in open court, just so
that I am not part of this any
808
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:16.400
longer. And and that's what he
was going to do, was going to
809
00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:22.440
jeopardize his freedom again because he couldn't
take where he was and how he was
810
00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:27.639
living and what was happening to him
fight. Luckily, luckily for him in
811
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.440
terms of not going back to jail, he got, you know, again,
812
00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:35.840
he woke up before he actually went
into court and swore that he was
813
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:39.920
lying the first time. And and
he basically said, no, no,
814
00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:45.760
no, I what I said before
was truthful. And and he lucked out.
815
00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:50.639
They didn't charge him with perjury.
The conviction stood. It was the
816
00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:55.119
pizza connection case actually, and it
stood. And and he but that's how
817
00:57:55.280 --> 00:58:00.880
bad things were, Sam. He
was willing to go. He can see
818
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:07.559
he thought about and considered going back
to jail instead of the witness protection program,
819
00:58:07.639 --> 00:58:09.719
which was to me, I couldn't
believe it, but you know,
820
00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:13.960
it was that bad. But you
know, it's really like a foreigner.
821
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:16.679
You're like a foreigner really when you
think about it. And he was a
822
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:20.760
foreigner, So I mean this is
the guy who grew up in Sicily.
823
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:23.559
He comes here, he's a foreigner
to begin with. But to be in
824
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:29.880
a situation where you're in, let's
say, the middle of Iowa a hotel,
825
00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:31.840
that's like being in on the moon. As I said to something,
826
00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:35.719
some people, you know, how
do you live? He didn't know how
827
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:40.159
to live there, and yet he
ultimately he did the right thing for himself.
828
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:44.480
But then years later he still couldn't
take it and he wound up,
829
00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:47.840
as they said, committing suicide.
So well, fortunately I yeah, see
830
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:53.559
people like he had nobody, probably
I had family, I had friends,
831
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:58.239
And I said, I'm not staying
in this day. You know, it's
832
00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:00.599
hard for us to change our ways, change my name. The first place
833
00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:05.840
I went to was Houston. Then
they sent me to Dallas, Texas.
834
00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:08.480
So I'm in Dallas, Texas,
and one of the Marshalls, they were
835
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:12.480
pretty good guys. He says,
Zammy, I'll come. You don't come
836
00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:15.480
out of the hotel. Where am
I going to go? I don't have
837
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:17.519
a driver's license, I don't know
anybody here. Where do you want me
838
00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:22.320
to go? So he says,
we're going downtown. There's clubs and whatever,
839
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.159
and disc goes and all kinds of
shit. He says, you want
840
00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:28.800
to come out with us tonight?
I said, yeah, all right.
841
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:32.760
So I go to this club.
It's half a disco here a club and
842
00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:37.880
it's packed. There's online. We
wait. We get in the place and
843
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.880
we go towards the back and he's
going to go to the bar and get
844
00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:45.440
some drinks. I tell him what
I want, get me a little you
845
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:49.800
know, Scotch on the rocks and
whatever. And I'm waiting by this door
846
00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:53.880
that's facing the outside. The people
are on the outside and they're online and
847
00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:57.800
I'm on the door. It's like
you could open the door a little bit.
848
00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:01.360
Yeah. Every he's you know,
looking at me. And the guy
849
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:07.679
knocks and he wants me to open
the door, right, and he puts
850
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:13.760
up a five or ten dollar bill. I said, fucking I opened the
851
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:16.159
door. That took the ten dollars
on on a bid. Right, So
852
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:21.199
there was one people down. I
saw that everybody wanted to come in sneakid,
853
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:23.599
So I and take a buddy.
Let the bit. So that Barshall
854
01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:28.079
comes. He says, what are
you doing? I says, quiet,
855
01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:30.719
you got a piece. I'm gonna
let the bid. We got the door.
856
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:34.840
Let the big over here, We're
gonna pick up a couple. So
857
01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:37.199
I had fun with it. Barshall's
I think I had. They had a
858
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.440
good tib with me. It was
almost like I was going to turn these
859
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:47.280
marshals into half for gangsters. Like
what's that movie there is on my bloom
860
01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:52.679
Heaven or something? Yeah, yeah, my blue Heaven in the Midwest.
861
01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:54.719
Well did have We had a family. He had a wife and he had
862
01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:59.599
I think three daughters by that point, but they were they were in witness
863
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:05.000
protection too, and he was not
near He was not near them. He
864
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:07.800
was not allowed to go near them. He never saw them again. And
865
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:10.440
by the time you know that this
happened where he killed himself, they probably
866
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:15.239
had had god knows where they were. They may have even gone back,
867
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:19.199
you know, to to Sicily by
that point. But yeah, but he
868
01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:22.639
had no he had no no family. I mean, he was literally no
869
01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:25.559
my family. My family didn't come
into program, and my wife, my
870
01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:30.159
kids, nobody changed their name or
came into program. That's why I did
871
01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:34.920
the wrong thing by cooperating, and
I broke the rules. I got to
872
01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:37.400
do that bullshit. Not them.
They didn't break no rules. They didn't
873
01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:42.199
do anything wrong. So they didn't
come in and I stayed there, like
874
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:45.760
I said, eight months, And
as soon as I went left, I
875
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:49.960
changed my name was Jimmy Moran.
They made me Irish, yeah, blonde
876
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:52.360
his head maybe an Irish guy.
So my name was Jimmy Wren. And
877
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:57.039
then I when I got back,
I changed my name back. Why in
878
01:01:57.039 --> 01:01:59.639
the marshals, So why do you
want to change their name back? I
879
01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:01.480
said, my father gave me this
name. He was proud of it.
880
01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:05.519
I'm going to dine with this name, no matter if I get hit by
881
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:07.199
a car, I got shot in
the head, I'm dying with his name.
882
01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:10.199
I'm not gonna go h You know, well, let me tell you
883
01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:14.440
why they put he he. He
agreed, and his wife agreed to go
884
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:19.000
into the program because at that point
when he when he started to cooperate,
885
01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:22.599
he was testing. He was cooperating
against a guy named Mikely Sindona, who
886
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:27.639
was a who was a financi year
from Italy who had caused the fall of
887
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.480
the Vatican Bank. He had caused
the fall of a bank in New York
888
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:35.519
and uh and the guy was was
was washing money for for I think he
889
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:37.480
was for the Gambino family and and
for and for others. You know,
890
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:42.760
I'm going to tell you Joe Piney, Joe Piney, he was, he
891
01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:45.519
was with us. I don't know
if you remember him. He was.
892
01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:50.199
I know he was part of the
Castilano and he was on the pizza connection
893
01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:52.559
case. Yeah, he was involved
in that. And it was the Gambino
894
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:57.760
family. So well. Well,
the thing with with Sindona is that when
895
01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:00.519
Sindona got he got in dieted and
Italy, and he got indicted in the
896
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:07.159
United States because he caused the fall
of the Franklin National Bank, and and
897
01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:09.920
he had he he was living high
on the hog boy, let me tell
898
01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:15.360
you. And and what happened was
when he got indicted in both places,
899
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:19.519
the only way he in his mind, the only way he could get out
900
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:24.000
of this was to kill the prosecutor
in New York and kill the judge prosecutor
901
01:03:24.039 --> 01:03:28.880
in Italy. And he and he
went to Luigi and and gave him the
902
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:30.239
contract. He said, one hundred
grand for the guy in New York and
903
01:03:30.280 --> 01:03:34.800
one hundred grands for the guy in
Italy. And Luigi at that point had
904
01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:42.480
gotten very very he he had lost
his written sant Santona didn't he become an
905
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:45.840
informant as well. Sindona. No, no, he didn't. He was
906
01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:52.639
the guy in that case got poisoned
on the witness. Sindona got poisoned.
907
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:57.199
Yes, that's him. Then,
okay, I know I know the case
908
01:03:57.320 --> 01:04:00.199
one. Yeah, you know,
I don't know if you know. They
909
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:03.000
put you know where you go when
you take the stand, there's a picture
910
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:06.559
of water, and you could take
her there. They poisoned the water.
911
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:11.639
Oh that I didn't do that.
And when he drank from that, you
912
01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:15.239
know, his mouth is getting drys, talking is nervous. So he drank
913
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:17.719
that and it poisoned and he died
on the stand. Yeah, I co
914
01:04:17.840 --> 01:04:23.920
operated. I I would go with
the marshals and the FBI, and I
915
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:27.760
would tell them give me the picture
of water. No, there's one out
916
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:30.400
there, no, no, no. And I told him this story about
917
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.960
sind and I said, get it
over here, let's wash it out and
918
01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:36.400
get me water from here and bring
it out with me. I'm not drinking
919
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:40.960
any water laying there. Because when
they took a break, you know,
920
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:45.239
the judge goes in, everybody goes
in. Somebody put the pictures laying there,
921
01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:48.280
a picture of water. Yeah,
and I knew the case. Yeah,
922
01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:50.800
well because he you know, because
he turned them down. He said,
923
01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:54.920
no, I'm not doing the hits. He now is completely disillusioned with
924
01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:58.880
the with the American mafia, and
he decided that that was it. I'm
925
01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:01.000
going to go, you know,
and go because he wanted to save himself
926
01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:05.079
and he wanted to save his family
too, So that's what caused him to
927
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:09.320
walk in. He walked into the
into a police precinct and he said,
928
01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:12.320
I want to talk to the FBI, and that's how that's how we and
929
01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:15.719
then he ultimately came to me because
I had I had a case at that
930
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:19.719
point, an open homicide in Brooklyn
that he was responsible for. He killed
931
01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:24.679
the guy. He killed the chef
in a New Corner restaurant and you must
932
01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:28.039
have you know the New Corner and
I think it was in Dyker Heights or
933
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:32.719
in Bensonhurst and Italian I heard of
it. I don't remember exactly, but
934
01:05:32.760 --> 01:05:35.320
I know the name. Okay,
Yeah, he killed the chef in there
935
01:05:35.320 --> 01:05:40.880
because the chef had raped was raping
his own niece and the family. The
936
01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:45.280
kid's family went to the U went
to the local whoever they I forgot if
937
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:48.440
it was I think it was they
wanted the Gambinos, and they they hired
938
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.719
a guy, and the guy goes
to do this, do the hit at
939
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:55.639
the new corner and he and then
when he pulled up, there were police
940
01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:58.840
cars all over the place, and
he got cold feet and took off.
941
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:02.000
The reason cops were there because they
were eating in the restaurant. They were
942
01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:04.159
you know, it was not anything
going on. But he didn't go in
943
01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:08.599
and do it. That's how Luigi
got hired. He went in and he
944
01:06:08.679 --> 01:06:13.360
did it and and killed the guy. And so that's the case that he
945
01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:16.719
had. So when the FBI had
gotten everything they needed from him about Sindona,
946
01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:20.159
they brought him into the DA's office. I'm sorry, they gave him
947
01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:23.519
to the cops, and then the
cops brought him into the DA's office and
948
01:06:23.559 --> 01:06:28.400
then he he started to open up
and told me about his He was apprecated
949
01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:31.800
the Vatican. He knew the whole
connections then with yeah, and Sindonna.
950
01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:36.840
Absolutely, Sindona was part of the
group that poisoned John Paul, the John
951
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:42.480
Paul the first as so that's and
so Luigi when he turned him down,
952
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:45.360
he said to me, Michael,
when I when I turned him down,
953
01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:47.679
I know that I'm dead. I'm
dead. I can't go with the jail
954
01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:53.079
because he had gotten arrested Sam for
a little bullshit robbery in Queen's and he
955
01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:57.119
got five hundred dollars bail put on
him and he goes to Sindona because he
956
01:06:57.199 --> 01:06:59.880
needs the money to get out.
First of all, he robbed a woman.
957
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:02.159
That's the thing that was really he
didn't know it was a woman because
958
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:04.880
she was dressed like a man.
And he said to me, he said,
959
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:08.519
in sicily, we know rob no
woman. That was his thing.
960
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:12.920
So he couldn't face it, and
and he he couldn't be He couldn't go
961
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:15.159
to jail, he couldn't get on
a witness stand, couldn't do anything.
962
01:07:15.559 --> 01:07:18.480
He said to Sindona, get me
out five hundred. I'm gone because he
963
01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:21.559
im he told him essentially, I
know, you know, I know about
964
01:07:21.559 --> 01:07:26.800
you, and he kind of kind
of hinted that that he had something on
965
01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:29.519
him, which he did, of
course, and Sindona told him no.
966
01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:31.639
And he said to me, Mike, he said, I know at that
967
01:07:31.719 --> 01:07:34.920
point I'm a dead man. He
said, because I turned down I turned
968
01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:40.039
down Sindona. He gets out,
gets money from his brother in law.
969
01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:44.159
He gets out and he goes to
He goes to Sindona again, calls him
970
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:45.559
and says, thirty thousand, I'm
out of the country. You'll never see
971
01:07:45.559 --> 01:07:48.880
me again. With done. Sindona
tells him no, and that was it.
972
01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:53.199
He walked into the precinct and said
I'm done, and he gave up.
973
01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:56.199
He gave up the you know,
gave up. Sindona talked to the
974
01:07:56.239 --> 01:08:00.960
FBI. They prosecuted him, and
he got convicted in two places in Italy
975
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:08.039
as well as in the United States. So so that was but but his
976
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:13.400
his thing about the witness Protection program
was startling to me in terms of but
977
01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:16.800
not surprising, because she could think
about guy who's you know, who's who
978
01:08:16.800 --> 01:08:20.199
doesn't know anything about the United States, you know, doesn't know anything certainly
979
01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:24.399
about the Midwest, where you know
a place like well, you said you
980
01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:27.760
were in Houston, in Dallas,
those are two big, two big cities,
981
01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:31.399
but you could be sent to you
know, some little coo dunk town
982
01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:34.439
in uh, you know, in
the middle of the Braska or something,
983
01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:41.279
and you can't ye. After Dallas, I wound up in Colorado for the
984
01:08:41.319 --> 01:08:45.640
rest of the time I left.
I left from there, well, Colorado
985
01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:48.960
was nice I was in Boulder,
Colorado, small little town. Yeah,
986
01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:53.880
it was. It was gorgeous,
you know, jogging trails. It's a
987
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:58.159
college town. There's like four or
five colleges there, right and right.
988
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:02.439
There's all kinds of young people running
around and that was cool. And I
989
01:09:02.520 --> 01:09:08.119
was working out in prison. So
when I saw all of that jogging trails
990
01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:11.960
and all that stuff, I said, yeah, I was good. Good.
991
01:09:12.199 --> 01:09:15.760
Yeah. One of them. Just
on the same topic with witness protection.
992
01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:18.039
I had a guy who was a
cooperator. He was in in the
993
01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:21.399
program, and he was in he
was sent He was in Minnesota. He
994
01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:26.039
was in I forgot what town somewhere
in Minnesota, and he came. He
995
01:09:26.119 --> 01:09:29.319
was going to testify in a trial, and he came. They brought him
996
01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:32.800
in and he was in in the
the that little apartment that they have down
997
01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:38.960
below the courthouse and in Manhattan,
and you know, so so I go
998
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:43.079
in and I speak to him and
and he says, he when when am
999
01:09:43.119 --> 01:09:45.760
I going to be done testifying?
He said, well, you know,
1000
01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:47.640
we're expecting this day to stay whatever. He said. I said, why,
1001
01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:50.399
where where are you going? What
do you got to do? He
1002
01:09:50.439 --> 01:09:55.199
says? I He says, I
I got to be back in my town
1003
01:09:55.680 --> 01:10:00.720
for Friday night football, high school
football. I have a Frankfurt of that.
1004
01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:03.560
I self ranks at the football game
and he said, that's how I
1005
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:06.199
make money. I got to be
back there to do that. And that's
1006
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:10.960
he's a guy again, witness protection. That's that's what he uh, you
1007
01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:15.640
know what he was. So yeah, yeah, it's not I mean,
1008
01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:18.800
it's not uh, you know,
it was a way out. The government
1009
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:23.159
used it in a good way.
A lot of guys flipped and it was
1010
01:10:23.239 --> 01:10:28.039
gave them an open door to get
away and be in different kind of units
1011
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:31.720
and what sec they have what SEC
units prison? Yeah, you know withness
1012
01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:35.680
protection units in the country. I
was in a field with them after I
1013
01:10:35.720 --> 01:10:40.159
cooperated, uh, and I left
the A b X. I was in
1014
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:43.960
one the first time when I went
to prison, I was in it.
1015
01:10:44.920 --> 01:10:48.279
And uh, I guess it's a
It was a it was a good tool
1016
01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:55.039
for the for the government, and
no questions, no question, I wanted
1017
01:10:55.039 --> 01:10:58.920
to leave and you know, it
was a way to go somewhere and do
1018
01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:02.800
some question question about that that it's
it was necessary to have that, but
1019
01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:09.439
it's just that there were certain people
who you know, just can't can't live
1020
01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:12.359
that way. You know that,
and it's unfortunate, but they can't.
1021
01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:15.039
I can't live that. I couldn't
live that way. I really couldn't.
1022
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:18.479
So I left. I you know, I made that commitment because I had
1023
01:11:18.520 --> 01:11:23.119
money, I had family. I
didn't need the program. I wasn't worrying.
1024
01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:27.399
I'm not looking for protection. So
I didn't want to go. But
1025
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:31.199
they did deserve, you know,
I five years. I said, I'll
1026
01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:34.359
give you another year, but I'm
not you know what I mean. I
1027
01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:38.359
want to move around and do my
thing, and and then and they were
1028
01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:40.319
good with me. I got to
say the truth. They were fair,
1029
01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:44.279
they were good, they were some
of the marshals and people were great.
1030
01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:48.439
I made them a deal. I
wanted certain things. I was talking with
1031
01:11:50.159 --> 01:11:55.039
ABC with Diane Sawyer. I wanted
to do an interview with one of their
1032
01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:59.680
producers. I wanted to meet with
Peter Moss, who I was going to
1033
01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:01.880
do a book with. I did
the book on the Boss. And I
1034
01:12:01.960 --> 01:12:06.159
wanted to be with my wife.
I haven't been one up for five years,
1035
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:11.359
so I wanted to be with her
a vacation. Give me those couple
1036
01:12:11.359 --> 01:12:15.239
of things, and I'll give you
the year. And they did that.
1037
01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:18.039
Now, when I was with my
wife, they set up a place in
1038
01:12:18.319 --> 01:12:25.560
uh in California, and uh,
where's the place where all the way south
1039
01:12:25.560 --> 01:12:31.600
it's beautiful, The weather's gorgeous San
Diego. They gave me a beachfront thing
1040
01:12:31.640 --> 01:12:35.000
and everything, and they really stayed
out of the way, you know.
1041
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:41.359
So one day me and my wife
are walking on the on the beach on
1042
01:12:41.399 --> 01:12:44.279
the sand. So I said,
wow, they're really giving me a little
1043
01:12:44.319 --> 01:12:46.159
elbow room. They're never around.
I don't even see them anymore. She
1044
01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:49.199
says, yeah, well, it
looks all the way down on the beach
1045
01:12:49.239 --> 01:12:54.439
stairs. Two guys stayed and there
were binoculars. So I looked that was
1046
01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:58.159
there, but they were a couple
of hundred feet away. They were so
1047
01:12:58.359 --> 01:13:00.960
good it was incredible. I took
her to dinner. We went to dinner
1048
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:06.960
and they were outside and they were
sitting by a car a truck. I
1049
01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:11.199
saw them, but they let us
alone. So I said, they're doing
1050
01:13:11.319 --> 01:13:14.640
They're great, you know, they're
they're giving us a little loubow room.
1051
01:13:14.680 --> 01:13:17.279
We could enjoy it. And the
place was crowded. There was a table
1052
01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:20.560
next to me with a guy and
a woman. And she said, what
1053
01:13:20.680 --> 01:13:27.560
happens if something happens. I said, they're right outside the next table.
1054
01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:33.079
She said, we're right here till
I didn't even notice. So when we
1055
01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:35.920
were going to go, we were
going to the way they have the dolphins
1056
01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:40.560
and all of that. They would
get me the tickets. So I said,
1057
01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:43.399
listen, you know, it was
all could come on me if you
1058
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:46.079
want, because I know you're going
to sit in so we could all sit
1059
01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:50.119
together if you want. You know, my wife was she was ordering for
1060
01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:56.239
the people sitting in the in the
in the truck right that we were eating,
1061
01:13:56.279 --> 01:13:58.760
and they were sitting outside. So
I said, listen, we might
1062
01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:00.920
as well. All right, you
don't have to go stay away. You
1063
01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:08.159
know, I know what I got
had a similar experience because I was never
1064
01:14:08.199 --> 01:14:11.239
in witness protection. But I got
to tell you there was a point in
1065
01:14:11.279 --> 01:14:14.880
my career where I did a homicide
case and it was a guy, and
1066
01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:16.680
I did it with Tommy by the
way, Tommy was the detective and and
1067
01:14:16.760 --> 01:14:20.800
me, and we locked up a
guy who was an old a cold case
1068
01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:26.000
murder and uh and he was an
associate I forgot if he was a Gambino
1069
01:14:26.159 --> 01:14:30.079
or if it was a Lucasy,
I don't remember. And and he killed
1070
01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:34.600
his sister's boyfriend, and they did
it along the Bell Parkway in Brooklyn and
1071
01:14:35.000 --> 01:14:39.439
brought him into the woods. He
shot him twice and the guy didn't die.
1072
01:14:39.800 --> 01:14:44.479
The guy came out attacked the witness
that we had and then the guy.
1073
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:46.720
Then then the the the shooter had
had to hit him over the head
1074
01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:49.439
with a two by four and killed
him. So we tried, and then
1075
01:14:49.560 --> 01:14:53.920
and then they tried. They forgot
to bring shovels. They didn't bury him.
1076
01:14:54.359 --> 01:14:59.279
They put tires car tires on top
of him and made a pack to
1077
01:14:59.319 --> 01:15:01.039
coming back and area the guy.
When they went back, they took the
1078
01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:04.960
tires off and it was all maggots
and everything at the body. So they
1079
01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:10.079
said forget this and they put the
tires back. They didn't go back until
1080
01:15:10.239 --> 01:15:13.760
years later, a year later,
because they found out that there was going
1081
01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:17.239
to be a shopping mall built in
that area off the belt and they needed
1082
01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:19.680
to bury the body. So when
they got when they got back there,
1083
01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:25.479
it was only now a skeleton,
and they took this skull, broke the
1084
01:15:25.520 --> 01:15:29.079
skull off, the spine, punched
out to tick the teeth so that nobody
1085
01:15:29.119 --> 01:15:31.239
could identify it, put it in
a bag and threw it into a creek
1086
01:15:31.279 --> 01:15:35.840
in the woods. Years later,
two years later, a guy's fishing in
1087
01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:42.279
the creek and he finds the He
finds the skull, and nobody can identify
1088
01:15:42.279 --> 01:15:45.600
it because we don't have the case
yet. Tommy gets a cooperator from a
1089
01:15:45.760 --> 01:15:49.840
federal cooperator. They tell him he's
got information about a homicide. And Tommy
1090
01:15:49.840 --> 01:15:54.760
and I make this case. We
make this case. We find, we
1091
01:15:55.159 --> 01:15:59.439
identify the skull, We find the
skull, we identify the skull, and
1092
01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:01.840
the guy he's guilty. He was
smart because we had a good case against
1093
01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:06.319
him. He had the brother of
the dead guy was on tape, had
1094
01:16:06.399 --> 01:16:10.359
him on tape saying that he was
with them that day and I don't know
1095
01:16:10.399 --> 01:16:13.199
what happened. I just dropped him
off, and you know, so we
1096
01:16:13.279 --> 01:16:15.720
had him together. It was it
was a decent case. He gets.
1097
01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:18.439
I think he got six to eighteen. I was going to stand. I
1098
01:16:18.479 --> 01:16:21.600
was had the sentence, and I
had a young female assistant, Da working
1099
01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:25.600
with me, and she had never
done anything like this before. And we
1100
01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:27.800
went over to court and I said, listen, Karen, why don't you
1101
01:16:28.159 --> 01:16:30.520
handle you handle the sentence. You
know you never done anything like this before.
1102
01:16:30.520 --> 01:16:33.840
All she had to do was just
simply say to the judge were ready
1103
01:16:33.880 --> 01:16:38.279
for sentence and remind the judge what
the what the plea was was going to
1104
01:16:38.319 --> 01:16:42.319
be. And that happened. Everything
was cool. He goes. He goes
1105
01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:45.800
back into Riker's Island. We go
back to the office. I would say
1106
01:16:45.840 --> 01:16:47.479
about a week and a half,
maybe two weeks later, I get a
1107
01:16:47.479 --> 01:16:50.520
call from a detective in my office. He calls me and he says,
1108
01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:54.279
Mike, you better get up here. There's a guy that somebody wants to
1109
01:16:54.359 --> 01:16:57.399
kill. You said, oh shit, I go back. I go up
1110
01:16:57.439 --> 01:17:00.439
and there's a guy sitting there,
some mope with it and he's in He
1111
01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:04.119
looked they brought him out of Rikers
Island. And the detective says to him,
1112
01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:09.359
tell us, guy, what you're
here for and what you just told
1113
01:17:09.399 --> 01:17:11.680
me. He said, Oh,
there's a guy in jail. It's got
1114
01:17:11.720 --> 01:17:14.399
a contract on a guy named Mike
vicky On I said to less me.
1115
01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:15.760
He said, well, it's a
guy in jail wants to kill you.
1116
01:17:16.079 --> 01:17:18.000
I said, who is it?
So he tells me the name and it's
1117
01:17:18.039 --> 01:17:24.560
this guy, the guy with the
skull case. We find out that the
1118
01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:30.039
reason he wanted to kill me was
because I had let the young woman stand
1119
01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:35.119
up to do the sentence, and
he said, you disrespected him by having
1120
01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:38.680
this young woman stand up instead of
you doing it yourself. That was the
1121
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:41.479
reason why I wanted to kill me. And when the DA heard it,
1122
01:17:41.600 --> 01:17:44.239
I had bodyguards with me, just
like you were talking about. In terms
1123
01:17:44.279 --> 01:17:45.439
of people, I had people.
If I go into a restaurant, they
1124
01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:47.399
would be in there with me.
If I went to the gym, they
1125
01:17:47.399 --> 01:17:49.399
would be in the gym with me. I went to the movies, that'd
1126
01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:55.079
be sitting behind me. And that
went on for a good period of time
1127
01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:59.720
until we found out that the guy
had gone up state, but he had
1128
01:17:59.720 --> 01:18:04.279
told somebody who was in form at
the bars that contracts off. He said,
1129
01:18:04.279 --> 01:18:06.760
I don't need any more trouble.
If I kill a prosecutor, then
1130
01:18:06.800 --> 01:18:11.159
it's going to be more time for
me in jail. So it would have
1131
01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:14.920
been my life was that it would
have been a life sentence. Oh yeah,
1132
01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:17.199
yeah, So now I'm totally different
now. If you would have brought
1133
01:18:17.199 --> 01:18:20.520
me a woman to stand up,
I would have said you a thank you
1134
01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:30.760
letter if she was good looking.
I went to a restaurant one Sammy and
1135
01:18:30.800 --> 01:18:32.520
we were at the restaurant. I
was at the bar and the two detectives
1136
01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:35.199
who were guarding me that day were
two women, and they were sitting outside.
1137
01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:38.640
So the owner comes up to me
and he said, Mike, what's
1138
01:18:38.680 --> 01:18:42.319
what's that all about? So I
tell him so I knew that the real
1139
01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:45.960
owner of the restaurant was Gigante was
Chingaginte because the owner, the owner on
1140
01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:48.880
paper told me that it was.
So he says to me in a whisper.
1141
01:18:48.920 --> 01:18:53.600
He says, Mike, you know, you just tell me who's involved
1142
01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:55.520
here. He says, you know, I can take care of this for
1143
01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:57.920
you. I can take care of
all of this and you don't have to
1144
01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:00.199
worry about it. I said,
listen, they was Murray. I said,
1145
01:19:00.239 --> 01:19:02.399
Murray, it's okay. We got
it. We got it under control.
1146
01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:06.479
That's all I needed, right was
have more people involved in this thing.
1147
01:19:06.520 --> 01:19:11.279
It was enough that that that it
was it was. It ultimately was
1148
01:19:11.319 --> 01:19:15.920
fine, you know, And uh, you know, although I do believe,
1149
01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:19.600
I do believe that when we did
the Mafia Cops case that they were
1150
01:19:19.640 --> 01:19:26.000
behind a they were behind a burg
the burglary of my my father's house.
1151
01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:29.680
At the time I was I was
living with my dad, it was separated.
1152
01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:32.479
And and I got a call one
day from my sister saying, come
1153
01:19:32.520 --> 01:19:35.319
home. So what's the matter.
She said, when you get home,
1154
01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:40.800
you'll see. And I go home, and the whole place, my apartment
1155
01:19:41.119 --> 01:19:45.520
was trashed, Sammy trash that you
could not believe. My father's place not
1156
01:19:46.199 --> 01:19:51.479
even touched. They did such damage
that in the basement there was it was
1157
01:19:51.479 --> 01:19:57.640
a we had a toilet down there, a bathroom. The stuffed it with
1158
01:19:59.279 --> 01:20:02.359
toilet paper and paper towels, and
whoever was in there, who did it,
1159
01:20:02.399 --> 01:20:06.840
took a ship in it and then
flushed the toilet and the ship water
1160
01:20:08.000 --> 01:20:12.239
was all over the basement, all
over a basement, So I remember,
1161
01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:15.079
And and all my stuff was stolen. Everything I had money, I had
1162
01:20:15.159 --> 01:20:19.319
jewelry and everything. So I remember
calling. I told Tommy and he said,
1163
01:20:20.720 --> 01:20:25.319
somebody knows because we were we were
stolen. We were involved in the
1164
01:20:25.399 --> 01:20:29.199
in the mafia cops case at that
time. Now, and there's a cop,
1165
01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:31.079
let me give you a little tip. As a cop, you could
1166
01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:34.119
have picked that ship up, went
for DNA testing. And yeah, I
1167
01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:38.680
know, I know, I know, but well, let me tell you
1168
01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:41.279
here's what the cops tole me.
They're at they're in the house. They're
1169
01:20:41.319 --> 01:20:45.079
dusting, right. So I say
to the guy, I said, He
1170
01:20:45.079 --> 01:20:45.960
says to me, where do you
want me to dust? I said,
1171
01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:49.640
you're asking me. You're the cop, you dust what you think your cop?
1172
01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:53.640
But I then the detective was in
there from from I was living in
1173
01:20:53.720 --> 01:20:57.079
Queen's at the time. The detective
from queen says to me, he said,
1174
01:20:57.079 --> 01:20:58.960
so, you know, tell me
what you had stolen. So I
1175
01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.479
tell them all watch it and this
and that. I said, so,
1176
01:21:00.720 --> 01:21:03.199
what you know, what are you
going to do? He said, well,
1177
01:21:03.399 --> 01:21:06.079
you know, he said, what
you should do is go down to
1178
01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:11.079
Jamaica Avenue in Jamaica and look into
porn store in the pawn shops and see
1179
01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:14.399
if you see stuff, and if
your stuff is there, you call us
1180
01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:17.079
and tell us and then we'll take
it from there. I remember tom I
1181
01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.079
remember calling Tommy at that point.
I said, you're not going to believe
1182
01:21:20.119 --> 01:21:24.640
what this motherfucker just said to me. He goes, he told you that,
1183
01:21:24.680 --> 01:21:27.760
the detective said. I said,
yep, that's what he told me.
1184
01:21:28.479 --> 01:21:31.319
So anyway, I never got a
thing back, Sam never. Luckily
1185
01:21:31.359 --> 01:21:33.439
they missed. You know what I
had that they missed. I had an
1186
01:21:33.520 --> 01:21:40.479
envelope filled with cash hidden in my
because I was just about to pay for
1187
01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:44.960
my son's high school tuition and I
hadn't gone to the bank yet to you
1188
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:47.640
know, to to deposit it.
And uh, it was hidden somewhere and
1189
01:21:47.680 --> 01:21:50.800
they missed it. How they missed
it, I have no idea, because
1190
01:21:50.840 --> 01:21:56.800
Sam, if I couldn't walk into
my apartment, that's how much crap and
1191
01:21:56.880 --> 01:22:00.279
stuff was all over the floor.
They opened up every drawer that I had,
1192
01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:04.239
every piece of clothing was on the
floor, every it was. It
1193
01:22:04.279 --> 01:22:08.119
was a mess. It took me. It took me a week to clean
1194
01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:13.680
everything up. So but once again, you know, and then and then
1195
01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:15.359
what they did. The other thing
that happened right after that is I go
1196
01:22:15.439 --> 01:22:19.239
to the gym one morning. I'm
have an office. Cars parked in my
1197
01:22:19.319 --> 01:22:23.359
driveway, my father's driveway, and
I come back, go in, shower,
1198
01:22:23.479 --> 01:22:26.560
shave, get ready to go out
to work, and the back window
1199
01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:30.920
of my car is completely smashed out
completely. I look around, nobody else
1200
01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:34.840
on the block has a problem with
the car. Bring it into the office.
1201
01:22:35.199 --> 01:22:38.359
They bring it into the shop.
I get a call from the same
1202
01:22:38.439 --> 01:22:41.520
detective who told me about somebody wants
to kill you it calls me. He
1203
01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:45.239
says, Mike, do you smoke? He said, what are you talking
1204
01:22:45.239 --> 01:22:46.279
about? He said, no,
I don't smoke. What he said,
1205
01:22:46.319 --> 01:22:48.760
I said cigarettes. He goes,
no, no, no, you smoke
1206
01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:51.640
weed. I said no, I
don't why. He said, we found
1207
01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:55.520
a bag and he helds up.
He tells me we found a bag and
1208
01:22:55.560 --> 01:22:59.880
he showed me later on his hands
were like this filled with marijuana. Someone's
1209
01:23:00.079 --> 01:23:02.720
up into the ceiling of the car, right where the window was broken.
1210
01:23:02.760 --> 01:23:09.479
Because obviously someone was trying to set
you up, because that's it's not yours
1211
01:23:09.560 --> 01:23:12.640
and it's certainly not ours. So
that was so that was the other thing
1212
01:23:12.720 --> 01:23:16.039
that happened. And again the TA
the assigns bodyguards to me. They had
1213
01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:19.479
people sitting at my outside of my
father's house. They used to My father
1214
01:23:19.600 --> 01:23:23.399
was working in Lower Manhattan, he
had his own business. They were driving
1215
01:23:23.479 --> 01:23:26.880
him into the office. I had
to put flags on the car, my
1216
01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:30.960
son's car, license plates in case
someone ran the plates. You know that
1217
01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:35.319
kind of stuff. So it was
a mouse, not a happy thing,
1218
01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:41.199
not a happy pat mouse. And
yeah, I get it, you know.
1219
01:23:41.319 --> 01:23:45.479
I I when I when I cooperate. Even before I cooperated, I
1220
01:23:45.560 --> 01:23:48.600
respected Frank and Maddie and people they
were assigned to me. I used to
1221
01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:53.239
see them all the time, and
uh, as long as they did the
1222
01:23:53.319 --> 01:23:56.199
right thing. You know, your
job is to catch me and put me
1223
01:23:56.239 --> 01:23:59.680
away. I'm a bed dude.
My job is to get away with what
1224
01:23:59.760 --> 01:24:02.960
I'm doing. But as long as
we could have a little mutual respect from
1225
01:24:02.960 --> 01:24:05.800
one another, because this is going
to be a cat and mouse game forever.
1226
01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:11.279
I never really had a heart on
for the you know, you know,
1227
01:24:11.279 --> 01:24:15.640
when I was a kid a couple
of times, but you know,
1228
01:24:15.039 --> 01:24:17.840
and then when I flipped and I
was with them, I mean, I
1229
01:24:17.920 --> 01:24:21.920
had great guys, thank god.
You know, they they wanted everything.
1230
01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:25.039
Of course, a couple of times
I told them, listen, bro,
1231
01:24:25.399 --> 01:24:29.159
sometimes you're gonna love me, sometimes
you're gonna hate me. Why because the
1232
01:24:29.199 --> 01:24:32.039
case you got they were telling me
about the case that's not right here.
1233
01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:35.640
Let me tell you what's like.
You got the role guy to witnesses liar
1234
01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:42.680
deal. Just tell us the truth. If that's not your business, whether
1235
01:24:42.720 --> 01:24:45.640
the guys found guilty or not.
If the guys found not guilty because of
1236
01:24:45.680 --> 01:24:50.000
what you're telling us, it's not
your problem. Just tell the truth.
1237
01:24:50.279 --> 01:24:55.520
So soon as they acted like that
I was more you know, I was
1238
01:24:55.640 --> 01:25:00.399
more friendly with them when I first
went to chronicle with them. There was
1239
01:25:00.479 --> 01:25:02.279
one agent who tried to play games
with me. He sat next to me
1240
01:25:03.119 --> 01:25:06.399
at night when we got done,
and he said to me, and you're
1241
01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:14.800
gonna have secrets. We're gonna have
a great relationship. Secrets. Yeah,
1242
01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:17.399
I said, I'm cooperating, I'm
telling you know everything, what kind of
1243
01:25:17.439 --> 01:25:21.920
secrets. Well, you know,
we're going to be real close. What
1244
01:25:21.920 --> 01:25:27.000
do you mean, are you gay? What do you mean what kind of
1245
01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:29.159
secrets? So we got he said
no, no, no, I'm not
1246
01:25:29.279 --> 01:25:32.159
gay. But they moved him away
from me. Try to play good guy?
1247
01:25:32.399 --> 01:25:35.079
Could god bad cops? Yeah?
Yeah, you know. I would
1248
01:25:35.119 --> 01:25:38.880
tell him on a sneak and he
would go, tell them what about fucking
1249
01:25:38.960 --> 01:25:43.920
joke. I'm me on the boss
of the family. I invented these games,
1250
01:25:43.920 --> 01:25:46.960
I think half the time. So
but but the rest of them were
1251
01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:51.000
squared up that were great, no
bullshit, no games, no nothing.
1252
01:25:51.560 --> 01:25:55.039
And I you know, me,
I played. I like to play.
1253
01:25:55.039 --> 01:25:57.640
I played with them a lot of
times. You know, we go up
1254
01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:00.279
a road and I would jog and
they follow me. They were up my
1255
01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:03.760
ass all the time. So we
went up. It was a rainy day.
1256
01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:08.239
It was in Quantico. It was
a mud trail and big puddle of
1257
01:26:08.279 --> 01:26:12.000
water. I'm running around it.
There in the car following me, and
1258
01:26:12.079 --> 01:26:15.359
I know they can't get through this
puddle, so I go around it.
1259
01:26:15.439 --> 01:26:18.039
When I turned the curve, I
take off. Woot, I hear the
1260
01:26:18.079 --> 01:26:23.680
car. I hit the car doors
and I run down the mountain holding trees.
1261
01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:26.880
I'm flying down the edge of this
mountain. Not not you know,
1262
01:26:27.000 --> 01:26:31.000
not too bad, and I take
off. I'm gone. They don't know
1263
01:26:31.039 --> 01:26:34.720
where I am. And I get
to the road down there and I run
1264
01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:39.920
backwards where we started this journey right
and I'm sitting on a rock like this
1265
01:26:40.159 --> 01:26:44.199
was by Army Cross. They probably
going crazy. Where did he go?
1266
01:26:44.319 --> 01:26:47.479
He's gone. When they turn around, probably come back. I'm sitting on
1267
01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:51.880
a thing. Oh you sw of
the bitch. They're coased to be out.
1268
01:26:53.239 --> 01:26:56.119
So I said, listen, well
would you tell your bosses if I
1269
01:26:56.239 --> 01:26:58.760
wasn't here? So don't get bad. Listen. I'm going to tell you
1270
01:26:58.800 --> 01:27:01.640
what I want for lunch and get
it there. But otherwise we're telling your
1271
01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:05.199
bosses that you really couldn't find me. I used to break their balls.
1272
01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:09.239
I had. I had a blast
with them, but they were good guys
1273
01:27:09.640 --> 01:27:12.720
all time. You know another guy
time. I went to the gym with
1274
01:27:12.760 --> 01:27:16.840
them and it was about four or
five. You know the hr T teams.
1275
01:27:17.600 --> 01:27:21.640
Yeah, they were all fucking muscle
bound manias. They come military.
1276
01:27:23.239 --> 01:27:26.960
They work out fifteen times a day. Everybody's got fucking muscles coming out of
1277
01:27:26.960 --> 01:27:30.319
their rest. So we worked out
a little bit and I want to take
1278
01:27:30.319 --> 01:27:33.880
a steam and then a shower and
we can leave. So I want to
1279
01:27:33.880 --> 01:27:39.199
take a steam. It's a little
bullshit route. And they said, well,
1280
01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:41.680
we got we'll come in with you. I said, no, you
1281
01:27:41.720 --> 01:27:44.960
don't have to come in. I'll
sit at along. No, we got
1282
01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:47.319
it. You see me, all
right? So I got you. We're
1283
01:27:47.439 --> 01:27:50.760
new. We just got towels wrapped
around our waist. So we go in.
1284
01:27:50.840 --> 01:27:54.319
I'm sitting there with the towel.
I opened up the tower. I'm
1285
01:27:54.319 --> 01:27:57.520
taking a steam and the boss said, I'm sitting right next to me,
1286
01:27:57.560 --> 01:28:00.920
and there's a couple of guys sitting
on the higher to it. So I
1287
01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:04.680
said, what's your name? And
he tells me. You know, let
1288
01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:10.359
mean, he tells me his first
name. No, you're listening to body
1289
01:28:10.359 --> 01:28:13.439
want to know that, I said, because I'm you know, when I
1290
01:28:13.479 --> 01:28:15.479
get out, I'm going to write
a book. And I'm sitting here with
1291
01:28:15.720 --> 01:28:20.119
you know, all these really muscled
out guys and everything like that, and
1292
01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:28.119
really, you know, ex military
x whatever, and I'm so safe and
1293
01:28:28.199 --> 01:28:31.640
so happy and uh, you know, and I want to talk about it,
1294
01:28:32.560 --> 01:28:38.000
he says. Sing And he says, uh, what are you going
1295
01:28:38.079 --> 01:28:42.359
to say in the book? Not
just how we powerful guys and you know,
1296
01:28:42.439 --> 01:28:45.000
look at the size of your arms, and these guys work out five
1297
01:28:45.079 --> 01:28:49.319
times a day. But I wanted
your specific name because I noticed that the
1298
01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:53.680
towel when you removed it, that
your dick is about two inches big.
1299
01:28:54.159 --> 01:28:57.479
And I'm going to put that in
the book. He said, You can
1300
01:28:57.479 --> 01:29:00.399
you say that, I'll kill you. I told the other guys if you
1301
01:29:00.439 --> 01:29:04.760
eat that, correct. I got
a long, really good with them.
1302
01:29:05.000 --> 01:29:09.680
Yeah, I didn't have any problems. Hey, you know, you have
1303
01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:12.600
to. I mean, if you're
in that situation, that's you got to
1304
01:29:12.640 --> 01:29:15.880
Otherwise you'd be miserable forever. You
know, you really have to, you
1305
01:29:15.880 --> 01:29:17.640
know, so I just get along
with me. I'm a people's player.
1306
01:29:17.680 --> 01:29:20.960
I like people, So I get
along with people. And then's a lot
1307
01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:25.560
of people. How did you transition, Like you asked me before, I
1308
01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:30.079
transition pretty good. I like people. I'm a people's person. Yeah,
1309
01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:32.279
and uh, I'm easy to get
along with. Basically, I mean,
1310
01:29:32.319 --> 01:29:35.600
I'm I'm a part lion. I
got a bad lion side and I got
1311
01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:39.319
a good side. I live with
the good side with my mother and father
1312
01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:43.319
taught me. And uh, being
a good human being. Like I was
1313
01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:46.000
telling somebody, you know, I
when I go to the gym, as
1314
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:48.479
soon as I open the door to
walk out, I'm always looking back.
1315
01:29:49.079 --> 01:29:53.439
Not because I'm scared, because I
don't want to close the door in somebody's
1316
01:29:53.439 --> 01:29:57.159
face. I leave it open,
and then a woman will come. I'll
1317
01:29:57.319 --> 01:30:00.760
go out of my way to open
it. She comes out, she smiles,
1318
01:30:00.920 --> 01:30:04.640
thank you. That smile, that
thank you makes me feel so good.
1319
01:30:04.680 --> 01:30:06.760
And then when I come home,
I look in the mirror, I
1320
01:30:06.800 --> 01:30:12.359
feel like you were good. Yeah, that's what you're supposed to. Don't
1321
01:30:12.399 --> 01:30:15.399
be a dish for a little bastard
or think who you are, be good,
1322
01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:20.439
do the right thing and stuff like
that. So I transitioned. I
1323
01:30:20.479 --> 01:30:25.119
think pretty easy. I got a
great team. I'm working with all good
1324
01:30:25.159 --> 01:30:29.760
people, legitimate people. The one
Anna you talk to. She went to
1325
01:30:30.119 --> 01:30:33.039
school. She's great. She went
to school and she was doing a little
1326
01:30:33.079 --> 01:30:38.359
theatrical stuff and she graduated. Then
later on in life, she went back
1327
01:30:38.399 --> 01:30:44.279
to school and this year she graduates
and she's just a psychologist. And now
1328
01:30:44.279 --> 01:30:46.680
she's working with me, and she
wants to stay here and she's going to
1329
01:30:46.760 --> 01:30:50.560
go on and get her masters.
But you know, so she could work
1330
01:30:50.600 --> 01:30:55.000
with me, so she'll do it
slowly. It'll take her longer to get
1331
01:30:55.039 --> 01:30:59.600
it and work at the same time. So I got people like that around
1332
01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:03.000
me, good people, and it's
good. It's good to have that support
1333
01:31:03.039 --> 01:31:05.239
team, you know, that's exactly
what you need, you know. And
1334
01:31:05.319 --> 01:31:09.640
I got different people. She's Mexican, I got, you know, Italian
1335
01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:14.399
people. I got an Arab woman
and then she explains the Arab world and
1336
01:31:14.479 --> 01:31:18.359
I tell, oh, yeah,
And so, you know, you got
1337
01:31:18.399 --> 01:31:21.680
all different kinds of people around me. And I had a black guy who
1338
01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:30.880
was working with me doing uh uh
texts, uh photography and stuff like that.
1339
01:31:30.439 --> 01:31:36.600
And I did something for the magazine
uh uh yeah, Rolling Stone,
1340
01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:41.199
and he took the pictures, so
they were going to put the picture in
1341
01:31:41.239 --> 01:31:44.520
there, so I said, make
sure you say about you know, give
1342
01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:47.439
him credits with the picture. Yeah, they give him credits for that,
1343
01:31:47.560 --> 01:31:51.640
and he just he was a static, thank you so much, you know,
1344
01:31:53.199 --> 01:31:56.600
he loved it. That's great.
Yeah, good, good, good
1345
01:31:56.600 --> 01:32:00.319
good. So so it was it
was not there Pipe. It was Greg
1346
01:32:00.319 --> 01:32:08.000
Scarper, Gregory Scarper, and yeah, Scarper was in a cell in between
1347
01:32:08.520 --> 01:32:15.520
two of the terrorists. One was
involved with with the with the nine to
1348
01:32:15.560 --> 01:32:18.279
eleven quite frankly, and the other
one I forgot who, but both of
1349
01:32:18.279 --> 01:32:23.359
them were involved in that same in
the in the in the planning of what
1350
01:32:23.520 --> 01:32:28.359
turned out to be the horrific events
of nine to eleven, and they were
1351
01:32:28.479 --> 01:32:34.720
passing the information to each other through
Scarper Scarp. They would they would pass
1352
01:32:34.760 --> 01:32:39.880
it through and I don't remember how
he how it, how they got it,
1353
01:32:40.359 --> 01:32:43.520
but but he was getting it from
let's say, the guy on his
1354
01:32:43.640 --> 01:32:46.319
left, and he would pass it
to the guy on his right and they
1355
01:32:46.319 --> 01:32:49.920
would do the same thing. But
before he did that, he would make
1356
01:32:49.960 --> 01:32:54.520
sure that he kept he wrote down
what was on these notes. And there
1357
01:32:54.520 --> 01:32:58.680
were some kind of notes and I
just don't remember exactly how the what the
1358
01:32:58.720 --> 01:33:00.760
passage was. It might have been
some crack in the water, I don't
1359
01:33:00.800 --> 01:33:05.039
I just don't remember. But but
he he kept all of that stuff and
1360
01:33:05.119 --> 01:33:13.079
at some point he contacts an attorney
or an investigator who told him about what
1361
01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:17.239
what he had. He also had
information about Timothy McVeigh, who who was
1362
01:33:17.319 --> 01:33:24.239
going to you know, who had
kept the explosives explosives in this place in
1363
01:33:24.359 --> 01:33:28.319
a in a in a farmhouse I
think in Arkansas or something. That was
1364
01:33:28.479 --> 01:33:34.039
Timmy Faye's partner. Timmy t think
we've got the dead penalty refused it.
1365
01:33:34.640 --> 01:33:39.159
Who his partner was that I did
time with him too. Who is the
1366
01:33:39.239 --> 01:33:43.600
partner? What was his name he
had? That's the guy with the warehouse
1367
01:33:44.439 --> 01:33:49.279
and uh he was he was in
orderly while I was there. Okay,
1368
01:33:49.439 --> 01:33:54.239
I'm drawing a blank. Sam,
I just don't remember remember his name.
1369
01:33:55.199 --> 01:34:00.880
Terry Nichols, Nichols, Terry Nichols, Terry Nichols was, yeah, and
1370
01:34:00.960 --> 01:34:05.520
he was passing information and uh through
somebody, and he went to Greg Scarper.
1371
01:34:06.000 --> 01:34:12.000
Greg Stops went back to the government
and told them about them, and
1372
01:34:12.600 --> 01:34:15.800
they found the drugs. The only
thing is that the guy they were passing
1373
01:34:15.840 --> 01:34:21.239
the message, he was a Puerto
Rican guy and he went to the government
1374
01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:29.600
first. Okay, right before I
guess by uh Scarpa did. So.
1375
01:34:29.800 --> 01:34:34.640
They gave this Puerto Rican guy a
big break, but not not Scartl and
1376
01:34:34.680 --> 01:34:39.920
Scarpor didn't get a break at all
for the for the Muslim stuff. He
1377
01:34:39.960 --> 01:34:42.600
did not get a break for that
at all. He had, he had
1378
01:34:42.640 --> 01:34:45.600
the information, he and he and
he told me, he said, Mike,
1379
01:34:45.960 --> 01:34:48.760
the stuff I had was was nine
to eleven. I mean that's what
1380
01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:51.399
they were planning, he said.
And I had it, and I turned
1381
01:34:51.399 --> 01:34:55.600
it over to the government. They
didn't They didn't give him any any credit
1382
01:34:55.720 --> 01:34:59.119
at all for it. They called
him in fifty million lies. First of
1383
01:34:59.159 --> 01:35:02.079
all, now I don't know if
you know this part is that when I
1384
01:35:02.159 --> 01:35:08.760
weren't there, I tried to get
gas Pipe to come in the yard with
1385
01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:13.439
me. He offered me money twenty
five thousand to go to my family.
1386
01:35:14.199 --> 01:35:16.279
If I went to them and said
I lied about this, that and the
1387
01:35:16.359 --> 01:35:20.720
other thing. He have an appeal
right, And I told him, yes,
1388
01:35:21.319 --> 01:35:27.439
but come in my yard. Shit
under me, we'll talk. Now.
1389
01:35:28.880 --> 01:35:30.720
Thirty years I found out that he
was one of the guys who killed
1390
01:35:30.720 --> 01:35:38.000
FRANKI Chico. I had no intentions
of lying or they're getting the twenty five
1391
01:35:38.079 --> 01:35:42.239
thousand When he came in the yard. I was going to kill in the
1392
01:35:42.399 --> 01:35:48.159
art. I had promise Frankie Chico
at a corfin, I will kill everybody
1393
01:35:48.600 --> 01:35:56.640
who did this, told Sammi.
Gaspipe told me the entire story when when
1394
01:35:56.680 --> 01:36:00.039
I went to see him, everything
about I did, the Chico, about
1395
01:36:00.039 --> 01:36:03.880
the bomb, how to how it
was set, how he where he was,
1396
01:36:04.439 --> 01:36:11.399
where where paint was so great hearing
that, I'll tell you why.
1397
01:36:11.920 --> 01:36:16.119
There's some one or two jud Goes
butter Ass judge of the Chico's brother.
1398
01:36:16.119 --> 01:36:21.359
The butter Ass it was the Chico's
uncle made a claim that I did it,
1399
01:36:23.239 --> 01:36:25.840
and I said, I fucking didn't
know what. I was the closest,
1400
01:36:26.079 --> 01:36:29.119
but I didn't even I didn't even
argue it. But I've heard it
1401
01:36:29.159 --> 01:36:30.800
from other guys. Now man in
it from you that he told you to
1402
01:36:30.800 --> 01:36:38.680
take himself the whole thing for everything, the entire he told me. And
1403
01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:43.960
he told me about how the hurry
Pate's car was damaged because he whirled right
1404
01:36:44.000 --> 01:36:46.279
next to the when he before he
set the bomb off. The car then
1405
01:36:46.439 --> 01:36:49.840
was driven to some garage. We
were trying to find it. I was
1406
01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:56.439
trying to find the the the the
the garage after we got the information,
1407
01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:59.479
and it took us. It took
us a long time. It took me
1408
01:36:59.520 --> 01:37:02.399
a long time. I'm finally nailed
it down that it was him, and
1409
01:37:02.479 --> 01:37:09.159
Chin Chin gave the order and and
the Luczy people carried it out. So
1410
01:37:09.279 --> 01:37:13.359
when I was trying to get him
in the yard, I was, well,
1411
01:37:13.439 --> 01:37:15.560
I passed the kite. The guy
says, said, you're not doing
1412
01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:20.319
this, are you really? I
said, just do it, I said.
1413
01:37:21.319 --> 01:37:24.640
He said, I know what you're
doing. Well, then do it.
1414
01:37:24.720 --> 01:37:27.800
Don't don't worry about it. What
I'm gonna do when he comes in
1415
01:37:27.840 --> 01:37:30.600
the yard. And then the guy
I spoke with it, I want to
1416
01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:32.039
say what I told him. No, I'm going to take him the funk
1417
01:37:32.119 --> 01:37:38.800
out. And what happened happened.
He couldn't get in my yard. They
1418
01:37:38.800 --> 01:37:41.880
would have came in my yard,
we would have unner. And I told
1419
01:37:41.960 --> 01:37:45.119
him where I was gonna sit.
I told him sit right meet in my
1420
01:37:45.199 --> 01:37:47.960
legs a little bit lower so I
could lean forward and we could talk.
1421
01:37:48.640 --> 01:37:51.720
When he was going to lean forward, I was gonna grab him on my
1422
01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:57.279
left arm, rip his fucking neck
open with a shank and start stabbing him
1423
01:37:57.279 --> 01:38:00.359
in his fucking chest. So he
was dead, and kick him over in
1424
01:38:00.399 --> 01:38:02.199
twelve minute day. Now if they
shot me, because you know they're gonna
1425
01:38:02.199 --> 01:38:08.840
shoot you from the odd if they
see that happening, and so be it.
1426
01:38:09.479 --> 01:38:11.399
I didn't know if I was going
to get out of prison at that
1427
01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:14.000
time anyway, but that's what the
fuck I was gonna do. There was
1428
01:38:14.039 --> 01:38:17.359
another guy who took that message and
knew that, and now I think he
1429
01:38:17.439 --> 01:38:21.760
went to the government. I didn't
care who did what, but once I
1430
01:38:21.840 --> 01:38:27.359
knew what he did, well,
you know that the woman that that scarf,
1431
01:38:27.920 --> 01:38:30.880
Yeah, the woman that that Gregory
went to, she was investigator.
1432
01:38:32.119 --> 01:38:35.920
He was able to get her ear. She was an investigator for Congress somehow,
1433
01:38:36.319 --> 01:38:41.359
and and she he told her about
you know what he had in terms
1434
01:38:41.359 --> 01:38:44.560
of the two Muslims, the two
terrorists on either side of them. And
1435
01:38:44.640 --> 01:38:48.319
she for she tried her best.
She was able to get a uh,
1436
01:38:48.840 --> 01:38:53.640
you know, the senator from Iowa, this guy Grassly, he was,
1437
01:38:54.199 --> 01:38:59.520
he can't he was. He listened
to her and she started a whole investigation
1438
01:38:59.560 --> 01:39:01.800
involving n FBI agent. I'm not
going to get into that at this point,
1439
01:39:02.039 --> 01:39:06.000
but but Greg Gregory, I should
say, keep saying, Greg that
1440
01:39:06.079 --> 01:39:13.399
was the father Gregory made absolutely no, didn't hide one single thing about the
1441
01:39:13.399 --> 01:39:17.840
fact that he had in his hands
the plans essentially or what would have been
1442
01:39:17.880 --> 01:39:21.640
the plans for nine to eleven,
and the government wouldn't didn't do anything for
1443
01:39:21.760 --> 01:39:26.439
him, nothing, nothing, And
and of course we know what tragedy occurred.
1444
01:39:26.520 --> 01:39:30.159
And you know, and I'm happy
you tell me that you were in.
1445
01:39:30.359 --> 01:39:33.159
You were in with him at that
time. So he wasn't bullshitting me
1446
01:39:33.199 --> 01:39:36.279
about about where he was. Yeah, no, No, he was there
1447
01:39:36.439 --> 01:39:40.239
and he's out now, you know, Yeah he is. I know,
1448
01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:45.640
I know he got a release and
he's out. And yeah. But and
1449
01:39:45.680 --> 01:39:50.520
then guess Pipe died in prison.
But Guessip was the guy I was.
1450
01:39:50.640 --> 01:39:57.520
I was targeting him once I knew
for sure he's the guy with the planning
1451
01:39:57.560 --> 01:40:01.399
and the murder of Frank the Chico. If he would have came in that
1452
01:40:01.479 --> 01:40:05.359
yard, I would have tore his
book. So I'm glad he never got
1453
01:40:05.359 --> 01:40:08.920
in that yard because if I would
have did that, I would have got
1454
01:40:08.960 --> 01:40:14.000
a life sentence on top thirst shot, which I didn't carry away at that
1455
01:40:15.199 --> 01:40:17.399
So I'm glad to Yeah, I'm
glad I did. And now you have
1456
01:40:18.039 --> 01:40:23.600
me telling you his confession about having
done exactly what you you knew he did.
1457
01:40:23.760 --> 01:40:28.079
He absolutely did, and he made
no bones. He didn't even attempt
1458
01:40:28.119 --> 01:40:30.000
to hide it. He told me, He told me everything, told me
1459
01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:34.520
the whole story, exactly how it
happened. All right, great talking to
1460
01:40:34.640 --> 01:40:39.680
you, Boke, you soon,
I love you, Thank you, take
1461
01:40:39.720 --> 01:40:40.600
care of bye bye,