Alec Baldwin

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While John was alive. I knew
who would send it to you to take
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me out. I've waited for them
to come. Imagine, and that's when
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you think they know where I am. I'm in a small room. One
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of the reason is is I plan
and plot. I always knew exactly what
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I was doing, where I was
going to say. I was armed every
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single day. One shotgun, a
crystal, a three point fifty seven.
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Imagine them by my side while I
slept. I'll guarantee you, Sam,
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he's going to have a gun.
I guarantee you he won't run, and
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I'll guarantee you he's going to try
and kill us. And he was one
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thousand percent right. Yeah, I'm
the old looking guy guy testing one two?
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Can you hear me? Good?
Look at you? Is that no?
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Is this a custom Neon bull?
Is this your Neon bull? Or
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this is from I'm like, uh
uh some product? Is this like from
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el Teredo restaurant? Or like where'd
you get this neon bo from? No?
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I had it made, I had
it made. This is mine.
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You have your own, you have
your own personalized yes, you know.
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And I was just telling the story
that we're not We're not being taped right
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now, are we Yeah, we're
rolling rolling right because it was a dirty
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joke. I don't want to say
so, you know, we'll cut it
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out. Trust me, We're not
going to screw him. So you were
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in with him, This is all
good, Tom, But you were in
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with him and you're in prison at
the same time, and that's when you
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decided to testify while you're in prison. Yeah, I was with him before
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I testified. I was with him
eleven months before I cooperated. That's uh.
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The first level eleven months I ever
did in prison was with him.
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Why why Well, he just didn't
want to go to prison, and he
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was just you know, and he
got on a whole bunch of lies.
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Now, this is a little bit
of a complicated story. At the end,
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he was planning to take me out. Now, you can't take out
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the underboss of the family who's doing
a lot of the work making money for
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the family. It backfires, you
know, it scares the shit out of
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everybody. So he was planning this
conversations he was having and got caught on
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tape with trying to tell Frankie Lecasso
to spell spend the rumors around that I
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was killing my partners and taking over
business, killing union guys and taking over
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unions. So he thought that putting
out these stories that you know, I
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kind of lost my mind. And
then at the end he thought the Kope
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de Gras was a brilliant plan.
He told me to kill Chin. Chin
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was involved in killing Frank Chico,
who was very close to me. Was
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music to my ears. I started
working on it. So he thought the
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day I went down and killed Chin, I would come back. He would
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tell me how to go. It's
done, and then he could take me
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out. Then he could grab the
heads of the Genoese people, because Chin
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was the boss of the Genees,
and say, listen, I love Samy.
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I had to take him out.
He lost his mind. His stories
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has been killing union guys and partners. And he came back and told me
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he killed Chin. He wants to
take over. I loved the guy,
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but I had to kill him.
And he winds up taking over the Genovese
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family, you know, with good
relationships. And he spreads that to all
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the captains and everybody would be comfortable
to say this. Fucking Sammy actually lost
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his mind. John, poor Johnny
how to do it. So he got
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caught on tape with this whole plot. He didn't realize that. And when
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we got arrested, we got arrested
on those tapes. Now, after eleven
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months in prison, everybody f lee
Balley, everybody told him we couldn't beat
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the case. He got another plot
plan and he grabbed me. He spoke
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to me and he told me,
he said, listen, Samy, he
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he saw you physically. Yes,
we were together in MCC and he says,
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I got a plan. I'm gonna
control the lawyers, and the lawyers
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are gonna the tapes are horrible.
I know they're not true, but they're
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horrible, makes you sound horrible,
and I'm gonna use that with the lawyers
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to say it wasn't You could hear
John Gotti complaining about Sammy on tape,
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It wasn't John Gottie. He lost
control of this animal. So the jurors
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would say, okay, we hear
John on the tape complaining about Sammy killing
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people and doing all this stuff,
and so it's obviously not John, it's
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Sammy. I would get convicted and
he would go free. That was his
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plan. When he told me that
right to my face, and I asked
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him, I said, John,
Are you sure that's what you want to
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do? And he says, I
gotta do that, Sammy, I'm the
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boss. The streets needs the boss, and you got to take the weight.
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He told you that in mcc yes, face to face, and when
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I walked away, in my head, I said fuck him out for your
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fuck him and I switched side.
I cooperated, and I was in already
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eleven months when that happened. The
FBI confirmed all this, everybody confirmed it.
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There was guys who flipped after me
who confirmed it, And that's exactly
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what happened. That's why I flipped. No, that was when you were
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in for that stuff and those tapes. And you do that sentence when you
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go back, when you go back
for the ecstasy charges, that's you.
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You did like what twelve thirteen years, fifteen years, eighteen, So you
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do eighteen years and you'd already testified. Yeah, you'd already left witness protection
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correct. Yeah, I was only
in the witness protection fate once. Right,
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So when you're out of witness protection, you're viewed to somebody that turned
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on John. So when you go
to prison for the ecstasy charges, was
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that probably one of the most nerve
wracking times of your life, because I
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would imagine that that's when you think
they know where I am. I'm in
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a small room. The guard's aren't
going to want to meddle. I mean,
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all the legend and lore of the
mob, where were you afraid they
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were going to get you when you
were in prison? I thought they would.
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I mean, I'm coming in with
a lot of baggage. Yeah,
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I had a twenty year sentence.
So I that's where all these tattoos came
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from. What I did is I
tattooed up and I said, as soon
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as somebody fox with me, I'm
going to kill him in prison. I
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thought I'd never get out of prison
and I would probably die in prison.
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So I said, I got nothing
to lose, and that's what I'm gonna
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do. I tattooed up. I
put that in my prison hat on,
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and I said, the first person
who fox with me, I'm going to
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kill And that's going to push people
away thinking about coming over to me or
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fucking with me. So but it
really never happened. People started hearing and
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understanding the story. Even though I
came back with baggage, I got along
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pretty good. I got along good
with the abs I got along good with
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up people who don't know what's done. The Aryan brothers, I got along
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real good with them. There was
a lot of things that happened. I
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got along with them, and I
got along with Our farm is a Mexican
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mafia gang of a high level.
One of the bosses there. There was
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a rumor in the ad X that
they were going to hit him in the
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yard. They were going to take
him out. And I had told this
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guy, corn Fed, who was
an AB, a friend of mine.
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He was a boss of the ABS, and I said, listen, they're
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going to take this guy out with
a familia. And he said, Sammy,
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I know the guy good. When
you go in the yard, tell
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let him know. And I did
that. He already knew about the hit.
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He thanked me. He thanked corn
Fed. And after that, our
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familiar was very very close to me. He must have talked to all his
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people. And so I had two
extremely powerful prison gangs that thought very highly
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of me and didn't hold it against
you that you testify. They didn't looks
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say you were a rat in any
other ugly language like that. They didn't
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do that. No, no,
no, no, nobody done that in
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prison most people understood the story with
John. Now, John got in trouble.
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He had a fight with a black
guy. Black guy beat him up
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in prison pretty bad. There's all
facts and stories about it. And he
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went to the ABS and they shook
him down. He went to the ABS
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for protection. Now he paid protection
money to the a BS to not only
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kill the black guy who beat him
up, but for protection. Did they
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kill the black guy. No,
the prison found out and they moved him.
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So he slid through, but they
were shaking him down, and they
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had no respect for somebody who wants
to be protected and it's willing to pay
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for it. He's walking around with
this tough guy persona and he's paying for
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protection. I never did that in
prison. Like I told you, if
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I had a problem with somebody,
I was ready to take a shriking kilt.
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No, I thought that would be
my protection. Now, when you
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say that you tattooed up, what
does that signify to you? You want
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a tattooed person? Before that time, while I had two or three tattoos,
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and when I the first time in
prison, I came out, I
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went in the program. They said
we'll remove them because people know you have
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those particular tattoos, so I took
them off when I went back in the
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second time I tattooed. I got
sleeves, my back, my chest,
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and the AB guys gave me Odin. They allowed me to put a tattoo
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of Odin on my arm. I
still have it on my arm. Now,
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you can't do that. Odin is
like their god. They look at
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Odin as their king, and if
you put that on your arm, they'll
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cut it off. But they gave
him permission. They told me, Samy,
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you're not one of us, but
we love you and we're giving you
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permission to put it on your own. And I did so. When I
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walked around prison yards with them,
they all sort of tattooed. They knew
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that I had permission, and they
all respect they They treated me like I
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was one of theirs, and they
used to ask me questions. They wanted
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to know the structure of the mafia. I had asked them why, and
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they said, well, your organization
has lasted a thousand years, so we
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want to understand it and use it
in our own organization. And there's a
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few organizations that did that. The
Familia spoke to me about it. The
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AB's and I had told them about
the structure of the mafia, our rules,
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our regulations, and they were loving
on that stuff. And they all
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knew exactly what John did. They
didn't obviously when he went in. He
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wasn't like in prison at all.
I love I love how you're there and
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you're with the uh the Aryan Brotherhood
and the mafia that we know. They
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got nicknames. The Italians have nicknames
like Bobby Bacala and you'd be like with
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Tommy Skjels and this and that,
but their nicknames are corn fed. Yeah,
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you know why is you know the
corn fed label came He was six
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two or six three and didn't work
out. Will Waits You never see a
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body like this in your life and
it's corn fed. Was like, he's
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like a farmer. Yeah, he's
born with that, you know, bulk,
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that bulk. Yeah, he didn't
have to work out for it,
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and uh so they named him cornfed. His name was Paul Schnyder his real
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name, and he has, uh
I believe, three life sentences. He
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came in with a case. It
wasn't a life sentence. He got two
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or three more cases, every one
of them for murdyers in prison. He
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was a boss in the abs and
that's what he's currently alive. And he
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has three life sentences plus one hundred
years. They'll level let him out.
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God, that's funny. Now let
me start by asking you because we detorted
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up from which is fine, But
you know, you're doing this work,
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and the whole time you're doing this
work, there's a whole layer of society
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that's out to get you, that's
out to catch you. Not your own
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people, not other organized crime people, but law enforcement. There's cops and
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detectives and state police and FEDS and
everything, and the DEA and everything,
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and they're all coming after you.
And did you was there a part of
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you that you understood that you didn't
begrudge them that they had a job to
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do. Did you kind of recognize
that and say, hey, these guys,
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you know, were the law and
they got to do what they got
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to do, or did you think
all of them were the enemy? Was
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always bitter? No? No,
Yeah, Listen, I dealt with a
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lot of agents on a constant basis. I got to know their names and
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who they were. I saw them
every day watching and they were legit.
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In other words, they had a
job, and I didn't really, you
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know, to catch us. We
had a job is to get away.
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And as long as they told the
truth, I don't begrudge them. It's
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people who lied about people, made
up lies and did all kinds of bullshit
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that I hated them. But after
I cooperated, I got to know them.
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I actually lived with them for years. I was in Quantico, a
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military base, for months and months
and months. I lived with them every
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day of the week, and I
got to know a lot of them,
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like Frank potentially. Yes, yes, I mean I got to with some
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of them. You know, some
of them I got rid of right away.
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I'll give you an example. When
I was first there and you know,
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I'm gonna cooperate, They're gonna hear
stories and stuff. And one guy
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came to me before we went to
bed at night. He came to me,
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since SAMMI, me and you're gonna
be super close, we're gonna have
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secrets. He's playing a good guy, bad guy, will make good cop,
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bear cop. I'm not stupid,
So I said, well, what
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kind of secrets are we gonna have. I'm cooperating. I guess there is
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no secrets. He said, no, no, we'll have secrets. And
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I told him, are you gay? What kind of secrets? So we're
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gonna have So he said, no, no, I'm not gay. But
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the bosses got rid of him one
two, three to try and they said
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he's too sharp to play games with. And they had guys around me who
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literally were open and honest and sincere
and uh. I used to fuck with
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them all the time. I played
chess with them. I actually beat one
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of the guys who was a good
chess player. I knew I was going
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to lose. I took his piece
and put it next to his piece and
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checkmate it them, which is cheaty. And he looked at me and he
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said, oh my god, how
did you do that? I listened,
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son, I played the escape for
quite a while. He never realized I
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was cheating. Now beyond the ones
that were handling you. If you will
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during when you're testified and so forth, during your career, when you're out
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and you're younger or not the rampers, but when you're a made guy and
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there's a lot of money on the
line, I would assume you wanted the
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cops to cooperate with you, or
there were times when it would be helpful
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if the cops cooperative with you,
and you didn't want to get that wrong,
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meaning you didn't want to go after
a guy and make a play on
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a cop or somebody. And you
didn't know if he was going to cooperate
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with you, meaning was there a
tell? Was there a tell? You
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would see they would tell you that
the cop was ready to come over and
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he was dirty, and he would
he would cooperate with you. Yeah,
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I mean it became obvious. I
mean, but you kind of distinguished the
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difference. You know. I wasn't
really looking for that, but occasionally it
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came by. You know. When
I was a kid, when I was
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the rampers, we had after hour
club. They were on the payroll every
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week we would give the money.
But that was kid shit. Really.
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When I got older, I really
wanted to pull away. Some guys had
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connections and that was good enough for
me. I wasn't looking for a connection.
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I didn't want to get close to
them. But you know, like
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this guy, Frank and Mattie,
they used to call him the twins.
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You saw one, you saw the
other. They were actually put on my
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detail them all the time. One
time, Christmas time, I came to
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my office and my secretary was there
was snowing, it was cold, and
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she said that Frank and Maddie are
out there watching. She even knew their
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name. We knew their names and
everything. So I said, how long
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were they out there? She said
quite a while. So I got a
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box, cardboard box. I got
some coffee, I got we I had
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cookies, all kinds of canolas,
everything, and I put a box full
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of stuff. I went out.
I walked to the car in the snow,
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knocked down the window and said,
bro, you guys don't ever go
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home. I said, this is
our job. I said, here's a
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box of cookies and coffee and stuff
like that. So they said, no,
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we can't take that. I said, listen, it's not a bribe.
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It's cookies. Bro, I know
you're not going to do nothing for
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so take the fucking cookies. They
took the cookies, and uh and uh,
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I became when I flipped those are
the guys I actually flipped with on
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a tougher subject because I think about
this. I think about, you know,
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the the psychological difficulties of doing some
of the things you did the first
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time you killed somebody, and every
time thereafter, was it always the same
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feeling or was there a time when
you know, because a lot of it
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was at someone's direction. You were
you were being told to do this,
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You were being ordered to do this. You were given a hit, you
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were given a job. Did you
have to did you have to medicate yourself
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to get yourself in that state to
do that job? You either get jacked
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up and high and really really kind
of like a blind kind of uh you
255
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know, uh, energy and power, or get numb. Were you always
256
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in the natural state or did you
have to take a pill and take a
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couple of shots before you could do
that? What was the state of mind?
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First of all, I was always
a hit to me, was always
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in order. I never did a
hit really without an order, So it
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always came from the top. You're
not allowed to do it without you know,
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00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:21.960
permission anyway. So but after the
first hit and uh, and I
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was into it, I became a
very good hit guy. One of the
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reasons is is that I was able
to think. I was a thinker.
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I plan and plot a hit,
I focus it. I'm gonna use the
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word you. I'm not talking about
you, but I focus in on you,
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on everything you did, every place
you went, and I would disregard
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my family, my friends, my
business, money. Nothing meant nothing to
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me other than you and where I
was gonna kill you. I became very
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very efficient at it, I became, and that's how I was used by
270
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bosses so many different times, because
they knew that if I got your contract,
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you were finished. I never took
drugs. The only thing I did
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as a kid when I smoked pot. But I never really took drugs.
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I never really drank. I didn't
need any of that, and I thought
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that would be the worst thing you
could do, because that'll fuck up how
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you think, and that's when you're
going to make a mistake. Did most
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of the other guys Did most of
the other guys take drugs and drink?
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Some did not a lot, not
as you know, not as many as
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you think. No, not as
many as you think. Some of them
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became hit guys, and some of
them became better at it, you know.
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I'll give you an example. Me
and my going by the Alley boy,
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we would go on stickups when we
were younger, before we got made,
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and and I was always the first
guy in with a gun stick him
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out, and he would take my
back and my mentor Tado said, Sammy,
284
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why are you deal the guy in
first all the time? So I
285
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said, because I'm comfortable he's got
my back. I feel barely comfortable.
286
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He said. Listen, Ali is
a good guy to have you back,
287
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:25.079
he said, but he's reactionary.
If there's a problem, he's gonna start
288
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shooting right away. You're a thinker. Let him go in first. If
289
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there's a problem, I'm sure you'll
probably try to think your way out.
290
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I know you'll shoot, but you'll
think your way out. You're a thinker.
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And I thought of that, and
he was right. My Gumbada was
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a tough guy. I loved him
not putting them down. But if there
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was a cop walk in by accident, he would have probably shot him instead
294
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of understanding, this guy just walked
into something. He doesn't realize it.
295
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He doesn't have to be shot.
I could try and move around it and
296
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deal with it. That's what I
would do. So my Gumbala would shush
297
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:15.200
you in a minute. So I
started to learn that's the way it goes.
298
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I was in three mafia wars,
and I planned and plotted in two
299
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:25.160
of them. The whole thing went, which three? Which three? The
300
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:30.400
Philadelphia well I started off in the
Colombo family. Gallo. Yes, for
301
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:36.359
the second part of the MafA.
There was two parts to it, the
302
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:41.920
Profacci and the Gallows. Everybody went
to prison. It stopped when crazy Joe
303
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Gallo came out. The second part
started. I was already with the Colombo
304
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people and I was told to hit
the mattresses with them. I wasn't doing
305
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:59.759
any planning, but I was brand
new. I did already work, meaning
306
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:06.920
so they took me. In that
case. I was eventually transferred over to
307
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:15.000
the Gambino family. And in the
Gambino family, when Angelo Bruno was killed
308
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:19.759
in Philadelphia, there was a war
broke out. It ended up. It's
309
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:22.799
a long story, but at the
ends to the story on the podcast,
310
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Yeah, the guy you took to
the golf club, yes, Johnny Keyes.
311
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So they couldn't five families and the
Philadelphia family couldn't kill them, and
312
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I wound up getting the hit and
I wound up killing them. It was
313
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a commissioned hit. It's it's at
the highest level. And you watched the
314
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.279
the and heard the video. Matter
of fact, I'm working on a movie
315
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:53.839
about that now with people and everybody
seems to be fascinated with that. And
316
00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:00.279
then I controlled the whole Castellano hit. I did the planning and the plotting,
317
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.880
and I was on the hit.
John Gout he was in the car
318
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:08.440
next to me. He was my
driver. I had the walkie talkie and
319
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:15.480
I controlled eleven people who are on
the hit. Now, two things.
320
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:22.680
One is Johnny Keys in the podcast, which I listened to nearly all of
321
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the podcast. I mean I listened
to a lot of it. And you
322
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:33.839
tell that story. It's a very
powerful and very uh you know, romantic
323
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.920
even story that you said, this
guy's more close in Ustra than than than
324
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.279
than any of us. You know, he was old school and he was
325
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:44.400
he was like teaching you in the
car or the van or whatever the fuck
326
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you were in to uh uh,
to do the hit and not get caught.
327
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Like you said, somebody said,
get down in the windows. Who's
328
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:56.559
you're going through the toll or something. And but my point is is that
329
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.720
you felt this for him, and
you thought he was this great old school
330
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:06.079
guy. But at the same time, he did the hit without the approval
331
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:10.160
of the commission. Correct, That's
why you were That's why you were killing
332
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:12.680
him, because you were ordered to
kill him because he broke the rules correct.
333
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.240
Well, he didn't actually do to
it. I mean on Jelo Bruno,
334
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.400
that was all bullshit. He was
actually Angel Bruno's cousin. He was
335
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:26.960
fighting the other side. I mean
we really it was their problem, their
336
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:32.480
thing, and you know what,
like you said, he was, you
337
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:37.319
know, telling me how to do
the hit on himself. And I came
338
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:42.279
to learn now that I'm writing,
is that we were like to samuraise.
339
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.279
We were both hit guys. He
was a lot better, older, smarter,
340
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:55.640
wiser than me, and we met
on the battlefield. And what happened
341
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:00.680
is when he was in that van, he knew he lost. He knew
342
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:07.599
I did something that the whole six
families couldn't do. And he had a
343
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:15.720
respect for me, and he actually
was educating me and teaching me goes in
344
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:21.079
Australia, knowing he was going to
die. But if you know about samurais
345
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:26.200
when they lose, they want to
die, but they want to die in
346
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:30.559
an honorable way. With my shoes
off. Yes, well with him it
347
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.200
was his shoes off. He was
sending a message to his wife. Who
348
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:38.079
would do that at seventy years old. I mean he blew me away with
349
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:44.119
things he wanted, But I understood
it. Later on when it was explained,
350
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.000
and you know, people say,
well, when did you change?
351
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:55.400
In The Godfather, there was a
scene where Michael is in a room,
352
00:27:55.640 --> 00:28:00.559
his wife is outside, and after
this is all done, people are in
353
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.920
the room with him. Guys are
coming over, grabbing his hand, kissing
354
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:11.599
his hand, and the door closes
on his wife. The door closed for
355
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:18.559
Michael on everything, God Country,
his wife, everything he was one thousand
356
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:23.960
percent goes an Ustra. The door
closed to the outside world. To me,
357
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:30.720
the Johnny Keys story was that same
thing. The door closed on everything
358
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:36.720
I became goes an Ustra, mostly
because of him in a way that I
359
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:45.000
wasn't before. The door to my
life closed on that head. Why why
360
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:51.680
did you want to get out of
witness protection? Well, I wanted no
361
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.599
part of it. I had money
when I got out of prison. I
362
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.880
wanted no part of the witness protection
problem. You had to change your name
363
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:03.880
and do things and live by certain
rules. I did my time. I
364
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:07.319
didn't want to have nothing to do
with witness protection. I didn't need their
365
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.920
help, I didn't need their money. So but they wanted me bed.
366
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.599
They called me in a meeting and
they said, Sammy, you got nineteen
367
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:21.200
murders. You got said, it's
to five years. The government did the
368
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:25.119
right thing with you. You're going
to make them look like horseshit if you
369
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:32.039
don't come in. Give them some
more time. Volunteer for this program.
370
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.960
And they could pound their chest a
little bit. I felt that they did
371
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:42.400
treat me right. And I did
a five year sentence. I should have
372
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:47.400
did a hellb a lot more than
that. So I agreed to do one
373
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.640
year and one year only, and
that's what I did, and I stayed
374
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:57.359
in the program. Some women recognized
me. They wanted me to start over.
375
00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:02.559
I wouldn't do it. So in
eight months, I said, I
376
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:07.079
promised you one year. I'm not
starting over, and they said you have
377
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.559
to. I said what, I'm
not going there, and they said,
378
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.200
well, then you'd have to sign
out. I said that I'm going to
379
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:17.359
sign out. I promised you.
I'm in eight months. I promise you
380
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.920
a year. Four more months I'll
give you, and if you don't accept
381
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.759
that, then I quit. I'm
out. They can't force you to stay.
382
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.599
And I quit. I was out, and I went to Arizona,
383
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:33.920
where my family was. And you
want a friend, No, did you
384
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.960
ever get the impression that John's son, that John Junior was going to try
385
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.359
to do something to you. Did
he have some obligation? Not not that
386
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.799
he would succeed, but did you
do you ever get a sense that he
387
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.319
was out there trying to find you. Well, while John was alive,
388
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.880
I knew he would send a team
down again. I'm a professional hick guy
389
00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:00.559
of mega proportions, and I waited
for that team. I was armed every
390
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:04.680
single day. I lived in an
area in a spot that I always had
391
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:10.599
the advantage. I always knew exactly
what I was doing, where I was
392
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:14.799
gonna sit, and I was always
armed. When I got pinched for the
393
00:31:14.839 --> 00:31:21.519
ecstasy in my house, I had
four guns hidden, all of them loaded,
394
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.279
one shotgun and three pistols, and
a three point fifty seven magnum by
395
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.519
my side. While I slept,
I waited for them to come. I
396
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:36.440
knew John would send them. They
did. They found me. They sat
397
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:41.799
on me for months and months and
months, and they always felt like they
398
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.039
would never be in a proper position. And one guy, Huk, who
399
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:49.839
was in my crew made guy,
said I'll guarantee you, Sam, he's
400
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:55.319
gonna have a gun. I guarantee
you he won't run and I'll guarantee you
401
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.559
he's going to try and kill us. And he was a thousand percent right
402
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:02.200
before they had a chance to make
the move. They sat on me for
403
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:09.359
months, and we're afraid to make
the move. I got pinched ecstasy and
404
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:14.880
I went to prison and that was
over. So I didn't underestimate that John
405
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:21.240
would send somebody. He talked to
his brother Pete, who became the boss,
406
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:27.240
complete fucking moron, and he gave
Huck and a few guys that hit,
407
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:34.640
and he botched the whole thing.
He didn't send the right guys.
408
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:45.079
Now a hit for you in your
career? Was it left to you to
409
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:52.519
decide how in again, I can
only quote the scarcily language of like mafia
410
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:55.759
lore and legend that somebody goes out
and starts the car and the car blows
411
00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:01.079
up. Was that in your u
Was that in your tool kit? There?
412
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.759
Was it always a gun and shooting
somebody in the head or were there
413
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:10.359
other methods where they're poisoning blowing up
a car. Was there only one option
414
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:15.519
for you or there were multiple options
for me? There was only one.
415
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.119
First of all, our rule when
you get made, we're not supposed to
416
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.720
use bombs. They use that in
Italy. We don't use that in the
417
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:28.319
United States. It could hurt too
many people and destroy our complete reputation.
418
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.880
It happened once or twice a couple
of times, but it's against our rules.
419
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:37.119
So to me, using a bomb
was out of the question. I
420
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.960
don't shoot from a car. I
wait until I got you right, we're
421
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.759
face to face. When I shoot
you, you ain't getting away. So
422
00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:54.359
a gun to me or a knife
is very very right there in your face.
423
00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:00.039
I don't take chances when I come
after you, you're gonna die.
424
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:04.880
So and you could use poison.
I never used poison, never considered it.
425
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:08.599
It was used once or twice that
I know of, but that wasn't
426
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:15.079
My thing was a gun, right, I thought, maybe you know they'd
427
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.480
overdose people or things like that.
You know, well they do that in
428
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:25.880
certain cases, but not me.
You had, now the ecstasy case.
429
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:31.039
You spent years in New York,
and is it safe to say you weren't
430
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:35.280
involved in drugs very much? You
tended to be, if I read the
431
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:42.440
paperwork correctly. You tend to be
heavily invested in construction, corruption and the
432
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.760
construction business in New York. And
that was your Forte for years. Correct.
433
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:52.239
Yes, I did construction, loan, shocking different businesses. I didn't
434
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:58.159
do drugs, not that I knock
anybody who did it. I just didn't
435
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.679
like the people that you had to
deal with. So I never did drugs
436
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:07.719
for that reason. There was a
lot of money in it, but I
437
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:10.679
didn't like the people that you had
to deal with. So I did construction
438
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:15.679
and stuff like that just as much
money without that. And now when you
439
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:20.480
start dealing drugs and get that reputation, not only got the FBI, you
440
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:25.639
got the drugging for dea, everybody, the mother's on your back. So
441
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:30.440
I didn't want anything to do with
that. And all the years of investigations
442
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:39.800
showed that now go ahead, go
ahead. So what No, So that's
443
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:44.360
why I didn't deal with drugs.
It's not that I looked down on people
444
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:49.000
who did it. Some people didn't
have any talents and it's an easy way
445
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:52.679
to make money. I didn't need
that. I didn't want it, and
446
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:57.320
like I said, I didn't want
to deal with the elements that were involved
447
00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:02.360
with it. So describe for people
who don't know, how does organized crime
448
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:06.039
cosin Austria, whatever you want to
call it, How do they make money
449
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:08.039
in the construction business, what do
they do? Where's the what's the mechanism
450
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:14.519
where the corruption comes in? Typically, well, we control I controlled a
451
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:19.400
whole bunch of unions, the teamsters, not the teams to the truck is,
452
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:24.079
but the teamsters in construction that have
the gate around buildings that are going
453
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:29.000
to go up, and the teams
to foreman that opens the gate and all
454
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.519
the trucks go through the gate while
they do these fifty sixty seventy million dollar
455
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:40.159
projects, one hundred million dollar projects. So anytime I wanted that gate closed
456
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:45.400
and delayed, I could do it. So if I wanted let's say I
457
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:52.559
had a plumbing company, a drywall
company. If I wanted a job and
458
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:57.400
you didn't want to give it to
me, now I could give you a
459
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:00.440
hard time. With the unions I
could get you. There was coalitions.
460
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:07.440
I could give you associations. So
you know, I first of all,
461
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:13.440
I made sure that my companies were
qualified for the work. I mean,
462
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:15.639
you're an actor, you know what
it is. Unions could be a pain
463
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:22.079
in the s We can exert a
lot of pressure on projects, even in
464
00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:25.079
Hollywood. So after a while,
I mean, if my nephew needs a
465
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:30.360
job and wants to work in a
movie, some of the producers may turn
466
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:35.280
around and give this kid a job
and make peace. And so it's the
467
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:40.079
same thing with construction. With unions, it's every business you could possibly think
468
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:45.039
of, every trade, like I
said, Hollywood, all the way down
469
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:50.800
to everything. So we were very
powerful. I was with the unions.
470
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:57.599
Paul was extremely powerful. I became
his guy who he was able to use
471
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.880
me in different deals, to make
deals with a families, to negotiate things.
472
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.199
All the families had different unions.
So a lot of times if like
473
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:12.639
I didn't have any control over the
electricians, but I would go to people
474
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:17.920
who did have connections with the electricians
and can back them off of things or
475
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:24.079
do certain things that we wanted them
to do. So that was the real
476
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:32.159
power, the power of being able
to shut down huge projects. And the
477
00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:36.440
money that came to you came from
the developers. You'd say to them,
478
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.159
the electricians are going to slow down
a little bit here and fuck up your
479
00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:44.920
timetable unless you give me money.
Where did the money come from. No,
480
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:49.039
it came from doing the jobs.
Now it as I would do I
481
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.320
can do is five six, seven, eight, ten, twelve million dollar
482
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:57.880
drywall job. Now my number is
not going to be cheap. It's not
483
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:01.119
going to be super expensive, but
it's not going to be cheap. So
484
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:07.719
if you hire me, you're going
to know that if you do have legitimate
485
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:12.280
problems, I could solve them.
Feel and I'm not going to give you
486
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.320
any problems. So i can negotiate, and that fact, it's not a
487
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:21.840
shakedown. I can go in.
I'm qualified. When I had a drywall
488
00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:24.760
company, I had two hundred corpeenters
working for me, so I didn't have
489
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:30.920
a small company. And but I
was non union, so they didn't have
490
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:34.480
a problem. I could come in
and do the job a little cheaper than
491
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:38.800
a union company, and and I
could get away with coming in with non
492
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:44.840
union people. They knew the union
won't bother me. So I'm qualified to
493
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:46.960
do the work, and I'll give
you. Bobby Sasso was the head of
494
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:53.960
the teams disunion, the competents,
well, the team's desunion. He had
495
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:59.719
a bunch of things. So let's
say Trump, I'll use him as an
496
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:05.360
exis. He has a project going
up and I'm bidding the job, and
497
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.559
he doesn't give me the job.
So all of a sudden, the team's
498
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:15.840
to foreman has that gate shut.
It doesn't open up at seven or eight
499
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.079
in the morning, and it opens
up at nine o'clock. The team's to
500
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:23.519
form and is checking the trucks,
their breaks, their lights, directional signals,
501
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:28.199
everything. He's breaking ball, So
I'm breaking ball. So he'll call
502
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:30.920
up Bobby Sasser. You're gonna kill
me. I got concrete trucks, I
503
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:34.880
got everything. I'm gonna lose a
fortune you keep this up. What are
504
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:40.079
you doing? Bobby will tell them. Listen, the union guy's doing his
505
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:45.519
job. Just in case there was
bugs or whatever. He's doing his job.
506
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:50.400
There's nothing I could do. Hey, by the way, they used
507
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.360
to call me the little guy.
Did that little guy get that drywall job?
508
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:59.440
And he got the message loud and
clear. There's no conversation, is
509
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.880
no nothing. Oh listen, I
got another project coming out in a couple
510
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.559
of weeks. Tell him to bid
the job. He's got it, and
511
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:14.760
the and the and so. The
contract, the legitimate contract for the developer
512
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:20.559
or the GC on the job to
do the drywall. There's a vega on
513
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.199
top for you. That's that's where
you make money. There's a piece of
514
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.519
that contract for you. I just
make money on the drywall, so it's
515
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:31.119
a legit dry with the money you're
making is legit money. You just get
516
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:36.440
the contract in a kind of a
right war. And here's here's the difference.
517
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.119
A union contractor back then is paying
a guy with benefits and everything thirty
518
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:45.199
dollars an hour. I don't have
benefits, I'm not in the union,
519
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:50.920
and I'm paying them fifteen eighteen dollars
an hour. So there's look at the
520
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:57.719
gap in there. So I'm bidding
union price, but I'm paying eighteen dollars,
521
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.719
not thirty dollars. So when I
got I'm not looking for an envelope.
522
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:06.519
I could walk away with a seven
or million dollar job with a million
523
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.400
dollar profit. I don't need your
envelope, right right, I just want
524
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:15.480
the job. Uh, hold on
one second, I'm gonna take a quick
525
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:16.159
break. I'm gonna be right back
with the guy. I know where I
526
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:19.199
want to go. Next question.
Hold on, I gotta take him one
527
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:23.440
quick break. I'm doing an interview
over here with Alec Bowen. Who would
528
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:29.719
have thunk that sad be sitting that
with Alec Bowen. He's a good guy.
529
00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:31.159
This guy so like talking to a
street guy. He's a tough guy.
530
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:36.559
He's a good actor too. He
did a movie that a bear was
531
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:39.599
hunting them. Him and another I
forgot the other actor's name. A great
532
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:43.599
actor too. I mean, I
love that movie. I watched it.
533
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:49.159
I'm gonna tell him I watched that
movie fucking three times. He played it.
534
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:52.199
He played a all of a part, he really did. I'll tell
535
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.480
him when he comes out. Frank, you're listening to this, Listen,
536
00:42:54.920 --> 00:43:00.519
I'm seventy seven pushing seventy eight.
I put the you know much for the
537
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.400
old men to handle me like.
No, no, No, he's just
538
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:06.920
such a I think it was clear
in his third or something. He will
539
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:10.880
be right back. No, I'm
only teasing. I'm only teasing. What
540
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:14.360
was the name of that What was
that name of that movie he did with
541
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:21.360
the bear? What is it?
Yes? Yes, says that was a
542
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:24.119
hell of a movie. I was
just telling my girl, I watched that
543
00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:32.400
movie three times. Now, what
percentage would you say back then? I'm
544
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:37.719
assuming you were doing this construction stuff
in the eighties, correct, Yes,
545
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:43.960
And what percentage of the major jobs, you know, big jobs, what
546
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:50.119
percentage of those do you think were
uh not on the up and up most
547
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:53.840
of them? A lot of them. Well, when you I mean when
548
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:58.440
you say on the up and up, I mean I did the work on
549
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.320
the up and up, but I
used the muscle of my name, my
550
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:08.119
reputation get the legit job. But
when I went in, I did legit
551
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:13.719
jobs. So you know, I
always felt, you know, you can
552
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:22.000
shake down these contractors, builders or
developers once they you know, they all
553
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:27.360
have connections with agents, politicians.
I mean, you're not going to get
554
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:30.719
away with it over and over again. If you can do the work just
555
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.639
as good as anybody else, and
you could help them that you're not a
556
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:38.519
pain of the iss and maybe even
solve some of their problems. After a
557
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:44.679
while, they'll have a problem with
somebody else, a plumbers union, and
558
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:46.960
they may say, Sammy, we
have a problem with this union. Could
559
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.199
you help us? And I help
them. I don't ask for nothing,
560
00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:58.000
so I become a plus to them. I don't become a liability. Come
561
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:02.039
I help them out, so I'm
never You know, you have to be
562
00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:08.119
able to do the job successfully.
I mean that going in and you know,
563
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:14.400
bulling them and tried it, threatening
them, that's gonna last about nine
564
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:19.199
minutes. You'll probably do time and
it's over. But if you're going the
565
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:23.079
right way, I think you you
can make a good living now. Obviously,
566
00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:29.960
John Gottie, I always tell this
story my friend Brian Hamill, whose
567
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:32.880
brother Pete Hamill, the famous writer. Brian was one of the most famous
568
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:37.559
still men in Hollywood. He was
the number one still man who shot still
569
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:43.000
photography on the set of films.
Woody Allen Score says he Coppola, Brian
570
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:45.800
was a great guy. He is
a great guy, and he's still alive.
571
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:50.320
Brother Dennis wrote for The Daily News, Dennis, I think he just
572
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:55.119
died a little while ago. And
Pete, but Brian's still alive and he's
573
00:45:55.159 --> 00:46:01.079
an old buddy man. I said, where should I go to dinner with
574
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:05.199
my girlfriend? I was dating this
woman. This is a million years ago
575
00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:07.280
in New York. And he says, I want you to go to this
576
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:13.440
place il Tray Merri Lee for Italian
food. He goes. Then when you're
577
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:15.239
done, he goes, what night
are you going to here? This is
578
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:16.719
how smart he was. He goes, what night are you gonna go with
579
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:19.679
her? I said, I'm gonna
go on a Monday. He goes,
580
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.360
Monday Monday money. He goes,
you take her to the il tray merri
581
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:23.760
Lee for dinner, and then I
want you to walk a few bucks.
582
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:28.480
I want you to go to Tayo
Mina in Little Lialy. He goes because
583
00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:30.400
gott. He goes there for dessert
on Monday night. They have coffee and
584
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:34.400
dessert on Monday nights. I go, you're kidding me. I thought he
585
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.199
was completely bullshitting me. I mean, I'm a kid from Long Island.
586
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.519
What the fuck do I know?
We grew up with mafia legends in my
587
00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:45.280
town of Massapequa, where Carlo Gambino
lived. Carlo Gambino lived in a cold
588
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:51.000
sack in a very nice section of
town called Harbor Green. And the rumor
589
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:53.480
was that when he would get his
grass cut, he had his lawn guy's
590
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:57.199
cut everybody's grass in the cul de
Sox, so it was the same height.
591
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.719
He didn't want anybody's grass to be
too high or too long, so
592
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:04.199
he had the guy come and cut
everybody's grass. Then the other story was,
593
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.480
then when the whole crazy Joe Gallo
thing went down Onmburdo's clamouse, there's
594
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:12.679
some big mess coming down. He
gives money to all of his neighbors to
595
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:15.480
leave town. He buys them plane
tickets and hotels. He I want you
596
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:17.159
all to get out of here for
the next couple of weeks. I want
597
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.199
you to leave because I don't know
what's gonna happen. You know, he
598
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.440
doesn't say that directly, but look, so who knows what this bullshit is?
599
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:28.000
What's for real? But I go
to Tayomina and I'm sitting there as
600
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.159
me and this girl. It's another
couple, and this fucking guy who looks
601
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:35.199
like a poam booth comes walking in. He looks around and he snaps his
602
00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:37.920
fingers and two more guys come in
and they go to every corner of the
603
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:39.159
restaurant. They look around, and
then they wave to the other guy,
604
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:43.840
and the four guys come in with
gotty and God. He comes in and
605
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:45.440
he sits down there a whole bunch
of other guys, like twenty other guys
606
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:52.320
in different cars out front, and
they sit down, they have their coffee,
607
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:53.599
blah blah blah blah blah, and
then when they're done, you know,
608
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.679
hower goes by forty five minutes.
They get up and they don't make
609
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.400
a line, but it's kind of
like an unintentional line. They were all
610
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:05.559
talking to each other, but they're
moving, moving toward him, and they
611
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:07.679
kiss him on both cheeks and then
they all go home and they all leave.
612
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:09.960
And I thought I was gonna have
a heart attack. I thought I
613
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.159
was gonna swallow my tongue and choke
to death because I'm in this room with
614
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.159
this guy that's this legendary gangster,
you know, And you can see,
615
00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:22.199
like they teach you in acting class, you don't play the king. Don't
616
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:23.760
play like you're the king. We
know you're the king because of the way
617
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:28.360
everybody around you treats you. That's
how we know you're the king. And
618
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.119
all these guys are lining up and
they're all very you know, approaching him,
619
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:36.280
very gingerly. Now, what's obvious
that at some point you felt that
620
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:42.920
he was a problem, you thought
he was full of shit. But I
621
00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:45.800
guess what I want to say was, prior to everything going down with the
622
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:51.199
tapes and you deciding to testify,
did you think he was a good boss
623
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.360
ever? Or was he? Did
you always have your doubts about John as
624
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:58.679
a boss. No, he was
a good boss. Well, the thing
625
00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:02.880
you just explain is the worst possible
thing you can do in goes in Austra
626
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:08.480
He's not an actor. We're not
actors. We're gangsters. It's a secret
627
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:14.119
society and a brotherhood. You mentioned
Carlo Gabino. Let me give you a
628
00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:19.599
little Carlo Gabino. When he came
in a room in a restaurant, all
629
00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:25.119
you did was look all right eye
and give a slight nod of the head.
630
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:30.760
And that's your saying hello. You
don't go give him a bottle of
631
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:35.239
champagne. You don't wave a Carlo. We don't do that. So what
632
00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:40.159
he did is he exposed all of
gozen Austra. When I cooperated, I
633
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:45.960
was living with the government. The
government loved him, so I said,
634
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:50.239
I thought you just hated I mean, why do you love him? He
635
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:55.360
gave us goes an Ushra on a
silver platter. He demanded what you just
636
00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:00.000
said, people to come down to
the club. People with never even knew
637
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:05.559
her in the mafia. He demanded
that they be there. We had them
638
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.559
on film, We got their car, their plates, We followed them.
639
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:13.840
Now we knew who was who,
Who got what? All that kissing on
640
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:15.719
her cheek? When you got that
kissing on her cheek, he said,
641
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:20.159
Sam, when you came, guys
would jump up, grab you, give
642
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:25.119
you a kiss. We knew your
status just from that alone. So what
643
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:30.440
he did was gave up the Home
mafia on a silver platter on his ego
644
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:37.239
and and and uh, he was
a narcissist who put on this show.
645
00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:40.960
He bought into the whole Dapper Dawn
thing without a doubt. If he knew
646
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:46.639
what reporter was gonna say, call
him the Dappadon, that the the reporter
647
00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:49.880
could have called him up and said, listen, I'm gonna do an article.
648
00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:52.960
I'm gonna call you the Dappadon.
He would have got one hundred thousands
649
00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:01.239
my publicist. Yeah, but we
know. But but before this stuff,
650
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:06.119
before you let it all become a
little too melodramatic, and he kind of
651
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:08.599
broke some of the rules. You
thought he was a good you thought he
652
00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:16.079
was a good don no IoT,
you know you never thought he was good?
653
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:20.639
Well then, so so take that
aside. Then who did you think
654
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:25.960
was good? Who's somebody that with
your code? Because like like like what's
655
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.159
his name? Who died? Who's
the Philadelphia guy again, Angelo Bruno,
656
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:35.159
Johnny Keys, Johnny Keys. So
when you tell the story in the podcast,
657
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:37.920
so the Johnny Keys story shows me
that you know, Keys goes down
658
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:42.000
and he's got a code right to
the end. There's a code he lived
659
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:45.440
by right to the end. And
you're a man with a code. And
660
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:50.280
who's someone who you other than Key
Is because you're on the record about him.
661
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:52.920
Who's someone else in organized crime that
you really admired. You thought that
662
00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:59.480
they were tough, smart? Uh, you know, productive they made money.
663
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:01.679
You're there to make money. This
is not some tennis club, you
664
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:06.920
know what I mean. Who's somebody
you admired. Frankie the Chico, he
665
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:12.400
was like a big brother to me. And and and uh. When John
666
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:16.159
and his crew were in trouble for
dealing drugs, they were gonna taken out.
667
00:52:16.679 --> 00:52:22.039
They came to me and Frankie the
Chico and a guy named Joe Piney
668
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:28.239
a few people for help. To
be in this war without us. He
669
00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:32.000
doesn't he doesn't live. When I
talked to Frankie the Chico about it,
670
00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:37.199
I didn't want to be in that
war. And I told Frankie, well,
671
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:39.880
if we're going to be in it, I want you to be the
672
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:45.599
boss. He said. I could
be his underboss. He can't be mine.
673
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:51.760
He's got an ego like the Empire
Stateple. We'll have nothing but trouble.
674
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:55.199
Let him will take over, Let
him be the boss, will be
675
00:52:55.280 --> 00:53:00.679
the power behind the throne. If
he doesn't act right, I give you
676
00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:02.280
my word, we'll kill him.
I'll be the boss. You'll be my
677
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:07.639
underboss. I said, yes.
Now, I'm gonna give you an example
678
00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:10.760
of Frank and the Chico. What
I think of him. John had a
679
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:16.000
powerful crew, no question. I
had a powerful crew, no question.
680
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:22.119
If you put out two crews together, we weren't a pimple on Frank Chico's
681
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:29.440
ass. That was the real power. This whole family, women in the
682
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:31.599
family. I think, if you
killed somebody in front of the bell,
683
00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:37.719
help you move the body right.
So this was the real deal. His
684
00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:42.039
father, his uncles, were made
everybody, his whole family, and people
685
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:45.880
loved him. So this was the
real power. He's the guy who got
686
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:51.440
blown up four months after the hit
was done. Now when you say about
687
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:57.000
even the women in his family,
you know women I have written down here.
688
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:01.559
Mafia wives are often portrayed as blind. I have numb women who turned
689
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:06.920
a blind eye or pretend to to
their husband's activities. What's the reality.
690
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:09.000
Did your wife know exactly what you
were doing or you wanted to keep her
691
00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:13.360
to an extent, to the best
of your ability, shielded from what exactly
692
00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:16.599
you were doing. No, of
course, I shielded up from when I'm
693
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:21.079
doing all my kids or anybody like
that. I always want it's a protection
694
00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:27.320
thing. It's I always wanted her
to be able to tell the truth under
695
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:31.800
her fucking live detector tot the agents. What do you know? She would
696
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:37.400
be like, duh, she would
be blank. I don't know. I
697
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:43.679
read things, I heard things.
I'm not stupid. I understand he probably
698
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:47.119
is in the mafia, what level
or what exactly he does? She would
699
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:52.440
tell you, I owned the construction
company. But there's a lot of people
700
00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:57.519
in a lot of lives that are
numb as you say it, right,
701
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:01.159
Hollywood has a lot of guys fuck
around and do all kinds of things.
702
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:06.440
Would we say all their wives are
numb to that? No, No,
703
00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:07.280
I mean, I just I just
I just feel like, you know,
704
00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:12.800
you only see this in films.
You know, you only see Good Fellas
705
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:17.400
and the women all hang out together
and they yeah, that's uh, you
706
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:22.559
know, that's a movie. Good
Fellas is based on a true story.
707
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:27.320
I knew that crew pulled Vario and
all of them, most of them,
708
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:30.119
and that's an exaggerate. It's a
movie. It was very well done.
709
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:37.400
But my wife was not like that, and most of the women weren't.
710
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:45.840
Now somewhat, it was more the
gomater the girlfriend. You married a woman
711
00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.039
and she took care of your kids
and she was a family woman. She
712
00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.639
was a good woman. She got
roped into you, she fell in love
713
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.599
with you, and she stuck with
you. But it was the gomars,
714
00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:01.480
the fancy uh one with her hair
and short skirts and everybody. She was
715
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:07.000
the one running around and I'm going
out with John Gotti or Sammy de Bolo,
716
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:10.840
whoever it may be. It was, it was hot. She was
717
00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:14.880
the one you had to worry about. Well, well, we didn't have
718
00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:17.519
to worry about them. I mean
they were they were good. Uh they
719
00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:22.679
kept their mouth shut, they kept
their mouth shut, but uh, we
720
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:24.559
didn't have to really. You didn't
deal too much talk and went on.
721
00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:31.280
All you wanted to do was bed
talk, right, right, So the
722
00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:36.079
uh, I'll never forget. But
this is Brian, you know, we're
723
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:42.119
we're we're there with uh, what's
his name, shit, Paulie Herman.
724
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.599
We go to Cafe Central, the
second Cafe Central when they moved it downtown
725
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:50.199
from the original one, and they
moved it down to what was on like
726
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:52.719
a sixty something in Columbus or wherever
it was. They went to. This
727
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:58.000
is ten million light years ago,
and I'm with a bunch of people and
728
00:56:58.039 --> 00:57:01.599
there's this woman there. Now,
I'm completely admitting I could be hallucinating because
729
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:05.159
I was much younger. Obviously,
I was a kid, and I was
730
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:10.800
you know, I didn't look too
bad back then. I wasn't an old
731
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:15.559
man back then, and uh,
you don't look too bad now. Well,
732
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.880
I'm I look at pictures of myself
when I was in when I was
733
00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:22.840
younger, I go, God,
where did he go? But uh,
734
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.280
I got seven kids. I'm sixty
four years old. My wife and I've
735
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:30.800
had seven kids in nine years.
I got remarried, I got seven kids,
736
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:35.960
the oldest is nine. So well, I'm not dead, as I
737
00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:39.039
like to say, I'm not dead
yet. So but but but the point
738
00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:42.679
is, we're in the We're in
Cafe Central, the newer one, the
739
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.159
second one, and uh, and
this woman is there. You can help
740
00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:50.239
me out to identify which one of
these guys was the it was the wife.
741
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.400
I think it was Persico. Did
Ali boy Persico have a gorgeous blonde
742
00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:58.920
wife. Absolutely, she is in
a table and she's looking at me,
743
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:01.800
and she's smiling at me, and
then she turns away. She's like in
744
00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:06.559
profile and she's talking to somebody,
and then she'd look over me and smiled
745
00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:08.480
at me. And then and I'm
sitting there. I mean, I'm pretty
746
00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:12.760
fucking stupid. I mean, I'm
not gonna embarrass myself. And then she
747
00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:15.400
does it again, you know what
I mean. And and my friend leans
748
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:19.599
and he goes, don't look at
her. I go, I'm not,
749
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:21.519
I'm not. She's looking at me. I don't. I'm not. He
750
00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:23.679
goes, but but turn your chair
around, he goes, and don't even
751
00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:29.039
look at her, don't, don't
even give her any attention. I go,
752
00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:31.599
look at this fucking stupid aim.
I go, why why? He
753
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:37.360
goes, that's Ali boy, Persico's
wife, and he's in prison, and
754
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:39.239
you're gonna be so fucking dead.
They're gonna put you in a wood chipper
755
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:43.840
and grind you up if you fucking
flirt with his wife, you fucking moron,
756
00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:45.480
you know what I mean. And
she was stunning, I mean,
757
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:50.559
she was stunning. She was stunning. She was this gorgeous woman and I
758
00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:52.679
learned, you know that in that
moment, you know, I gotta make
759
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:57.400
sure I don't, you know,
smile at the wrong woman in some of
760
00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:00.159
these clubs and restaurants in Manhattan.
Speaking of clubs in restaurants in Manhattan,
761
00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:06.280
I don't want to lose the opportunity
to ask you who did you say the
762
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:10.519
goodfella's case was a Varry? What
was the name the good fella? Paul
763
00:59:10.599 --> 00:59:16.639
Varrio? So that was the the
captain the boss there. Yeah, what's
764
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:22.320
the name? Why am I blanking
out? Who? Just Sorvino the head
765
00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:27.079
guy? So Sorvino is Paul Varrio. And they show the famous scenes where
766
00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:30.440
he slicing the garlic with the razor
blade and they're cooking all and you look
767
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:35.519
at the Godfather and I'm gonna take
a funny story about David Chase, and
768
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:37.159
you look at the Godfather. Come
up, pay attention, Mikey. Whether
769
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.400
you have to make dinner for thirty
forty guys. You put you in your
770
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:45.119
sausage and your meatballs, then a
little cup of sugar, then a little
771
00:59:45.159 --> 00:59:50.679
red wine. He's making the pasta
sauce. David Chase told me I went
772
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.199
in and I interviewed Chase for the
bonus track for the box set of The
773
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:59.800
Sopranos. I had begged Chase.
I begged him on my hands and knees
774
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:04.719
to be on The Sopranos. But
other than Jamie Lin Sigler, everybody had
775
01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:07.559
to be real Italian. He wouldn't
cast you if you want Italian, so
776
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:10.159
he wouldn't cast me. One time, I think they asked me to play
777
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:14.199
myself. I didn't want to do
that, but so he asked me,
778
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:17.599
do you want to come interview me
for the director's cut of the box set
779
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:21.639
of all the episodes. And talked
to him and he said, I said,
780
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.079
We talked about the genesis of the
show, the origins of the show.
781
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:27.559
He said, I only knew one
thing when I started writing. He
782
01:00:27.559 --> 01:00:30.280
goes, I needed everybody to be
at a table eating. He said,
783
01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:34.400
that's what people do when they're in
organized crime and they're in a family.
784
01:00:34.440 --> 01:00:36.719
They love to sit down together and
eat and they want to be together.
785
01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:40.159
And I tried to have as many
scenes as I could. People are always
786
01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:43.840
eating. They were at about a
being and they're reading a sandwich. Here,
787
01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:50.800
they're relaxing together having food and they're
drinking whatever. I asked de Niro,
788
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:57.519
I asked Paccino, I asked David
Chase. I asked some of the
789
01:00:57.559 --> 01:01:01.920
most famous Italian New Yorkers in history, what was their favorite Italian restaurant or
790
01:01:01.960 --> 01:01:07.719
restaurants? Give me a couple of
suggestions in Manhattan or even beyond Arthur Avenue.
791
01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:12.639
I didn't fucking care wherever we go, and I was shocked that every
792
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:16.199
one of them said Cistina on Second
Avenue, which has since moved to like
793
01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:20.559
seventy third in Madison. It's some
very fancy building, one of the most
794
01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:25.719
elaborate, fancy, starchy, you
know, formal, expensive restaurants. What's
795
01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:30.039
a restaurant you love to eat Italian
food in the New York It was one
796
01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:37.000
of your favorites in Manhattan. In
Manhattan on Mulberry Street, I believe it's
797
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.039
Angelo's, right, is the name
of it? I mean President's people,
798
01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:45.159
everybody went there. It's a great
restaurant. We didn't go there too much
799
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:50.000
because it had so much of a
tourist trade, right And I believe the
800
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:55.679
name is Angelo's, Oh Mary's.
I think it's Angelos. But that was
801
01:01:55.719 --> 01:02:00.000
great. It was right on Mulberry
Street. It was a great restaurant,
802
01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:05.360
eat food, great service. And
me I stayed mostly in Brooklyn, bench
803
01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:09.199
and Arst. I stayed in restaurants
and places that really weren't all that fancy,
804
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:14.800
but I went to them before I
was anything, and I kind of
805
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:19.519
stayed there. Even though my rank
or position, whatever you want to call
806
01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:23.280
it, increased, I always went
back to the same places that I was
807
01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:30.239
going to for years. I didn't
like the publicity. I got caught up
808
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:40.960
what Italians everything is breaking bread,
you know, right, we break bread,
809
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:45.719
we talk, we eat, I
mean in my house with my father,
810
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:50.079
and we would eat. You'd be
at the table for an hour and
811
01:02:50.119 --> 01:02:53.440
a half. Not only would you
eat the first meal, the andy bars,
812
01:02:53.519 --> 01:02:58.559
the past that it is that when
you were done, you're drinking a
813
01:02:58.559 --> 01:03:02.400
little wine, you break in the
walnuts or you know, with the fruits,
814
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:07.400
nuts, fruit stuff like that,
and you conversed. It was a
815
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:15.440
tie, family tie, uniting the
family and keeping it together, you know,
816
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:19.599
and keeping it close. The kids
would go off and run off and
817
01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:23.400
go play in the backyard. But
so it was not only a mafia thing.
818
01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:28.480
It was an Italian thing. Basically, it was part of our roots.
819
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:34.480
These two guys, Uh I always
tell this story in La of all
820
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:40.679
places. These two guys Italian.
Now there were Mexicans in the kitchen working
821
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:44.159
for them, but the guy who
was the chef in charge of the kitchen
822
01:03:44.159 --> 01:03:47.239
was Italian, real Italian from Italy, came off from Italy, and his
823
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:52.000
partner was Italian. He was the
matro d front of the house, back
824
01:03:52.039 --> 01:03:55.199
of the house, and he used
to tick linguini and he'd throw it in
825
01:03:55.239 --> 01:04:00.480
a black skillet and he'd scorch it. On one side. It wasdente thrown
826
01:04:00.519 --> 01:04:04.639
into the skillet, and he would
scorch the bottom of it like Chinese bird's
827
01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:09.079
nest, just brown it a little
bit, then flip it over and brown
828
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:11.280
on the other side. You had
like a you had like a shell.
829
01:04:11.800 --> 01:04:15.800
It was like look you put two
frisbees together. It was a thick plate
830
01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:18.119
and the inside the noodles were all
nice and cooked the right way, or
831
01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:21.559
they were a little al dente.
And he seared it and then he would
832
01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:27.280
put arabiata shrimp. He put spicy
shrimp tomato sauce on top of it.
833
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:30.159
I'd cut my hand off if I
could have that again, I can.
834
01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:33.400
The restaur closed it with my most
delicious food. I've ever had in my
835
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:38.039
life. Right when the time we
have left, I wanted to just say
836
01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:45.360
three things. One is ah,
you always would imagine that anybody who loves
837
01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:48.159
their parents, you know, I
think about my dad. My dad died
838
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:51.119
right as I really started to make
it. I did a TV show,
839
01:04:51.639 --> 01:04:55.119
a soap opera here in New York, and I you know, they didn't
840
01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:57.840
pay us a lot of money,
but it was the beginning of my career.
841
01:04:57.880 --> 01:05:00.880
It's actually a wonderful place to start
because it tea which is you professionalism
842
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:03.079
more than anything. You got to
be there at six thirty in the morning,
843
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:05.920
seven in the morning and know your
lines, and you gotta you know,
844
01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:09.760
you got to. You gotta get
it done because if you don't,
845
01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:12.679
don't fire you. I watch people
get fired. They come up for two
846
01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:15.360
weeks and they get fired because they
were hung over the next you know,
847
01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:18.639
one day they didn't they didn't take
it seriously. So you learned less about
848
01:05:18.679 --> 01:05:23.840
acting actually than you did about a
career in professionalism, how to treat other
849
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:29.719
people. And they were lying on
you. But my dad dies nineteen eighty
850
01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:33.760
three, right as I'm getting off
that show. My dad died in April
851
01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:36.599
of eighty three, and I got
off that show that fall, and that
852
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:42.599
was the beginning of me in No. Eighty two, rather I go to
853
01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:45.840
LA. I got off the show
in eighty two. My dad died in
854
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:48.519
eighty three, and you didn't see
me go off and do other things that
855
01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:54.360
would more you know, successful and
more lucrative whatever. And I've always really
856
01:05:54.440 --> 01:05:57.760
hung up, you know, I
always feel horrible. My mom just died
857
01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:02.079
in May, somebody who all of
us worked very hard to take care of
858
01:06:02.119 --> 01:06:08.559
her in her old age because she
was kind of fragile and physically mentally she
859
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:13.239
was sharp, unbelievably so she was
sharp mentally, but her body was just
860
01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:15.519
shot. But my dad, I
always think about all the things I wanted
861
01:06:15.519 --> 01:06:17.800
to do for my dad. I
mean I would have done anything for my
862
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:21.239
dad. Buy him a house,
buy him a car, buy him a
863
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:25.199
weekend house, send him to Europe
on I would have given him anything I
864
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:29.559
would have given. My dad killed
himself. My dad took years off his
865
01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:32.199
life raising his kids and trying to
do for his kids. And he didn't
866
01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:34.920
have any money. He had six
kids, and he was a school teacher.
867
01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:38.920
He didn't make a fucking dime,
you know. He coached football,
868
01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:43.000
all these ancillary jobs he had at
the school. They didn't pay him very
869
01:06:43.079 --> 01:06:48.000
much money. So my point is
is that for you. My point is
870
01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:53.079
for you, what was it like
with your parents over the years. Did
871
01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:57.320
you like did you want to take
care of them and buy them things and
872
01:06:57.360 --> 01:06:59.920
do things for them and they knew
what you were doing and where the money
873
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:02.800
came from. Was there ever any
friction with them? Did you try to
874
01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:05.440
love them and maintain them in your
house? When did they die? Both
875
01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:10.320
your parents? When how old were
you? I was in my thirties.
876
01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:15.280
I was already made guy. They
they never knew that. But they were
877
01:07:15.400 --> 01:07:17.920
hard working people. They worked ten
twelve hours a day. My mother was
878
01:07:17.960 --> 01:07:23.440
a seamstress. My father was a
painter. And then they opened up a
879
01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:28.440
small little dress factory and he went
in and worked with her. And they
880
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:31.320
worked hard their whole life. They
didn't have a lot of money, but
881
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:35.760
whatever they had it was always shared
with the family, a dinner or this,
882
01:07:36.039 --> 01:07:40.039
that or the other thing. They
bought a small little house in Lake
883
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:45.000
Ronkonkoma in Long Island, and it
was always old. The uncles and cousins
884
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:49.159
and everybody there. Back when that
was the boondocks. Yeah, that was
885
01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:54.199
definitely right out there then quiet.
Yeah. Yeah, now it's probably all
886
01:07:54.239 --> 01:07:59.880
crowded, but yeah, yeah,
so they were like that. They were
887
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:04.000
eight legitimate people, I mean,
but I was always in trouble. I
888
01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:09.480
was always the black sheep. I
was always, you know, the one.
889
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:13.679
By by the time I went into
the military and I was nineteen,
890
01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:18.560
I got drafted during the Vietnam War. They had retired and moved to Long
891
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:25.840
Island, and then they moved back
into Staten Island. They passed away and
892
01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:30.159
uh living in Staten Island. But
I wish I could have spent a lot
893
01:08:30.199 --> 01:08:35.119
of more time with my father going
just simple things, going to a baseball
894
01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:40.079
game or something like that. Would
go fishing. He was originally in Italy.
895
01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:44.319
He was a fisherman, so going
fishing with him was you know,
896
01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:46.880
like a big day. And I
really didn't give them any money. I
897
01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:53.119
didn't have anything while they were you
know, working until they got very old.
898
01:08:53.479 --> 01:08:56.000
Then I took care of them as
best as I could. But they
899
01:08:56.000 --> 01:09:00.079
didn't need it. They had their
retirement money, very small appetite to do
900
01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:04.720
anything. They were up in age, they were sickly so but I was
901
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:09.560
always there to take care of them, connections with doctors, whatever I could
902
01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:13.560
possibly do. They never asked me
where I got money or did anything,
903
01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:17.560
because I really when they were alive, I didn't have big money. Big
904
01:09:17.560 --> 01:09:23.840
money started flowing, you know,
doing their real old age, sick and
905
01:09:24.039 --> 01:09:30.359
passed away. Now, people that
I know who turned me onto the podcast,
906
01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:31.640
I want to talk about that for
a minute. Who turned me onto
907
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:34.800
the podcast told me that you've been
this is their word now, not mine,
908
01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:38.840
that you've been kind of raging and
you've been really pissed off about the
909
01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:45.239
fentanyl craze. Is that correct?
Yeah, tell me about that. Well,
910
01:09:46.399 --> 01:09:50.920
you know, I have a family
member and I've got people have a
911
01:09:50.960 --> 01:10:04.039
big podcast azed. I'm amazed how
many people who lost loved ones, kids,
912
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:11.399
And I started doing research on this
thing, and it's the open borders,
913
01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:15.520
drugs pouring into the country. And
I was starting to talk about it,
914
01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:21.359
and the more I heard stories,
the more people started calling me about
915
01:10:21.399 --> 01:10:25.800
it, the more I was talking
about it, and I am in a
916
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:30.319
rage about it. I really don't
understand it. It's not that I do
917
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:34.520
understand it. You know, they
have these borders open, they have the
918
01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:40.600
information from the government itself, you
know, one of the shows I did
919
01:10:40.680 --> 01:10:45.199
with a woman who works with me
Anna and she's a psychologist as well.
920
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:54.079
And from November I think of twenty
one to November of twenty two, one
921
01:10:54.159 --> 01:10:59.000
hundred and ten thousand people. Ohdeed, not all of them died, but
922
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:02.359
one hundred and ten. Now in
New York, they just did a statistic.
923
01:11:02.439 --> 01:11:06.800
I saw it on ABC. I
think it was that every hour three
924
01:11:06.880 --> 01:11:12.880
people od. I mean, these
are phenomenal numbers. We know it's coming
925
01:11:12.920 --> 01:11:16.840
from India and China, we know
it's coming through the borders with cartels,
926
01:11:17.720 --> 01:11:23.720
and we're not doing anything. I
gave a description. I was with Adam
927
01:11:23.800 --> 01:11:29.399
Carolla and I said, if you
get a ship with two hundred sailors on
928
01:11:29.439 --> 01:11:34.640
the ship and a country shoots a
missile or a torpedo at it and sinks
929
01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:40.039
it, all two hundred people die. I think you know it, and
930
01:11:40.079 --> 01:11:44.000
I know it. We would go
to war in two minutes. Why are
931
01:11:44.119 --> 01:11:48.159
we not going to war over this, feneral Why aren't we allowing this?
932
01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:51.920
Why? Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. I think
933
01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:55.640
the fentantel market is what it is, and this is just my opinion.
934
01:11:56.359 --> 01:11:59.359
I don't expect this to make sense
to anybody. I don't expect them to
935
01:11:59.399 --> 01:12:01.000
agree with me at all. I
mean, I just I think about it
936
01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:04.119
from time to time. I mean, I when I went to when I
937
01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:09.000
lived in New York in the early
eighties, I grew up on Long Island,
938
01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:11.399
and when I went into Manhattan and
I started to make some money.
939
01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:14.079
I mean, you know, it's
Manhattan. You you want to live it
940
01:12:14.159 --> 01:12:16.000
up, you want to party,
but someone else is always doing the driving.
941
01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:19.279
You're in a cab. There's no
uber back then you're in a cab.
942
01:12:19.800 --> 01:12:23.439
You're in a subway. We took
the subway all the time, and
943
01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:26.560
we walked. We walked our asses
off. We walked from one hundred and
944
01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:29.159
tenth in Amsterdam down to the battery. You know, we didn't give a
945
01:12:29.159 --> 01:12:31.239
shit. We stopped at every bar
along the way, or at least we
946
01:12:31.239 --> 01:12:34.159
thought we did. And you know, we had a good time. But
947
01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:40.000
we were shit face drunk, doing
a little blow, maybe smoke a little
948
01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:43.760
weed, but we mostly was drinking. And it was a drinking town because
949
01:12:44.119 --> 01:12:46.800
someone else was doing the driving.
Then I go to la and I'm behind
950
01:12:46.800 --> 01:12:49.479
the wheel of a car for two
years, and I'm shit face drunk and
951
01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:55.840
coked to the gills for two years, and I'm doing the driving. I
952
01:12:55.840 --> 01:12:58.760
mean, I started a line of
coke, came from here to Saturn,
953
01:12:59.119 --> 01:13:00.880
I did a line on the rings
of Saturn, and then I came back
954
01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:03.760
with one more, big, fat
line to take me home. You know,
955
01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:08.640
this was la and cocaine was you
know, that was it. And
956
01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:11.680
I thought, oh, I'm going
to outfox everybody and cut down my drinking.
957
01:13:11.720 --> 01:13:14.600
I'm gonna switch to becoming a drug
addict. So I do this for
958
01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:18.039
like it's white hot for two years. Then I get sober. I don't
959
01:13:18.039 --> 01:13:20.439
talk about that that much on the
show, but I get sober. I've
960
01:13:20.439 --> 01:13:25.319
been sober since nineteen eighty five.
So this February I had thirty seven years
961
01:13:25.359 --> 01:13:29.600
sober, no drinking, no drugs, thirty seven years. I got sober
962
01:13:29.840 --> 01:13:34.119
right before my twenty seventh birthday in
eighty five. Great. And my point
963
01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:38.880
is is that I see now like
drugs are always such a reflection of the
964
01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:42.520
culture itself. And these kids they
don't want to talk, they don't want
965
01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:45.760
to learn anything, they don't want
to share anything if they want, if
966
01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:46.680
they do, if they want to, if they're in the mood, but
967
01:13:46.680 --> 01:13:49.159
they want a drug that's going to
they want to get wasted, like you
968
01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:53.199
throw a switch. Now, like
when we were young, when you were
969
01:13:53.199 --> 01:13:56.119
in a room and you put on
some music and you talked, and you
970
01:13:56.199 --> 01:13:58.920
talked about a movie you saw,
and you'd have a little drink and you'd
971
01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:01.039
smoke a little weed, do a
line or whatever, and everybody had like
972
01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:04.960
it was it was a part of
something. It wasn't just you wanted to
973
01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:09.960
reach inside your brain and throw a
stitch and go lights out like you're wasted.
974
01:14:10.039 --> 01:14:12.720
You would like they were. And
now like to me, fendon on
975
01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:15.079
all these drugs or for people who
don't have much to say, they're not
976
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:20.000
very social, they're a little fucked
up in some way, they're limited in
977
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:24.199
a lot of ways. What they
want to do is they just want to
978
01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:27.960
get out. They want to get
high fast. They want to fast acting
979
01:14:28.079 --> 01:14:31.279
high as a reflection of just their
whole view of life. So I see
980
01:14:31.319 --> 01:14:33.800
these kids who take these drugs now
and I'm like, where's the fun?
981
01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:38.119
You know, you're just you're like
a zombie. You're like a couple of
982
01:14:38.119 --> 01:14:42.800
minutes goes by and you're out,
You're wasted. And I'm thinking, I
983
01:14:42.840 --> 01:14:45.600
got nothing against getting wasted. But
can't we draw it out of a couple
984
01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:47.760
of hours, maybe throwing a slice
of pizza or so, take a go,
985
01:14:47.840 --> 01:14:50.279
take a walk. You know,
it's it's a weird thing, a
986
01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:53.960
right, So my last ques,
go ahead, go ahead, let me.
987
01:14:55.600 --> 01:14:59.720
What I don't understand is that people
who are doing marijuana or heroquina,
988
01:14:59.720 --> 01:15:04.119
whatever, what they're doing, why
are they lacing everything with fenidol? So
989
01:15:04.279 --> 01:15:10.119
these people don't even know they're getting
trapped. Not every one of them is
990
01:15:10.279 --> 01:15:13.640
zombie. A lot of these people, and that's why there's so many deaths
991
01:15:14.159 --> 01:15:17.560
because they're not they're usual, right, they don't even know it's there.
992
01:15:17.720 --> 01:15:23.319
They're not the usual drug addict.
Here's a kid smoking and then they're coming
993
01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:28.000
in with ones that look like candy. Now a kid at four, five,
994
01:15:28.119 --> 01:15:30.800
six, seven, eight, nine, ten, twelve, whatever,
995
01:15:30.359 --> 01:15:34.640
you're not gonna hook that kid that
they're gonna come back and keep buying drugs
996
01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:39.319
off you. So when this kid's
getting it, you're straight trying to kill
997
01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:44.279
them. This kid don't know no
better. He's too Treato's candies. He's
998
01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:49.239
not a drug addict. He's gonna
die. So this whole thing with fenidol
999
01:15:49.399 --> 01:15:53.439
is not well, you're saying,
I get it. I lived through that
1000
01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:57.159
area. I didn't try it,
I didn't do it, but it was
1001
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:00.880
fun. It was exactly what you
said, which is perfect. It's a
1002
01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:05.760
difference of what's happening right now with
federl. We're not even they're not trying
1003
01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:09.880
to hook them. You can't hook
the twelve year old kid. The first
1004
01:16:10.000 --> 01:16:14.159
kid, he eats two of those
camps, he's dead, right, And
1005
01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:18.359
you got people now who's a heroin
addic could live quite a while. But
1006
01:16:18.479 --> 01:16:24.279
now you're lacing it with fedidol.
What is this about? Is this about
1007
01:16:24.319 --> 01:16:30.199
to destroy our country or just kill
people? Kill people? I think so.
1008
01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:32.600
My friend said, my friend,
my friend went away. He left
1009
01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:38.399
New York for like nine years,
lived overseas, came back because his wife
1010
01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:41.439
had to take care of some business. Her parents died. She had to
1011
01:16:41.479 --> 01:16:45.720
come over and clean up some business
of her parents and estate. And they
1012
01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:48.399
came back for like a year.
And he came back and I said,
1013
01:16:48.399 --> 01:16:53.159
what was the things you noticed most? And he said, uh, you
1014
01:16:53.199 --> 01:16:56.640
know, just social media and phones
and all that stuff. He said,
1015
01:16:56.640 --> 01:16:59.319
it just drove him up the wall. And he said, and I said,
1016
01:16:59.319 --> 01:17:00.840
what's the thing about you? Do
the most. And he's a very
1017
01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:03.680
funny guy. He's a very odd
guy. And he said to all,
1018
01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:11.520
the thing that bothered me most was
GPS, and you don't learn where you're
1019
01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:15.439
going anymore. The phone tells you
where to go, and you have no
1020
01:17:15.520 --> 01:17:18.279
fucking idea where you are. You
have no fucking idea where you're going or
1021
01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:21.159
how to get there, and the
phone tells you where to go, he
1022
01:17:21.199 --> 01:17:28.079
says. He says, what I
miss is what if you got lost?
1023
01:17:28.319 --> 01:17:30.039
And he says, and you went
to a gas station to ask for directions,
1024
01:17:30.279 --> 01:17:32.359
and you went to the gas station, he said, and you met
1025
01:17:32.359 --> 01:17:36.520
your wife. He said. You
know, sometimes fate, you know when
1026
01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:41.199
serendipity comes in handy. He said. Now everybody's in a hurry. They
1027
01:17:41.239 --> 01:17:44.760
don't have any time. They want
to manage and control every part of their
1028
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:48.920
life. My last question for you
is or I got two more questions.
1029
01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:58.479
Is I was surprised to see you
know in some representations that guys in organized
1030
01:17:58.520 --> 01:18:00.319
crime are political and a lot of
them are Republicans. Is that true?
1031
01:18:01.359 --> 01:18:05.680
Guys an organized crime a very law
and order? Is that true? No?
1032
01:18:05.800 --> 01:18:10.880
I don't believe that. I was
always a Democrat, and I think
1033
01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:15.159
most of them were Democrats really because
yes, because they were easier to bribe
1034
01:18:15.520 --> 01:18:20.880
and deal with and work with.
And Republicans seem to be a Conservatives wanted
1035
01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:25.680
to always put you in jail.
So I don't think the mom liked the
1036
01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:32.000
Republicans and the Conservatives we went to
the other side. I think now i'm
1037
01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:38.760
hearing them, they sound more conservative
and Republican. I'm an independent in the
1038
01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:43.039
middle. I don't care wh what
party you're in. If you make sense
1039
01:18:43.079 --> 01:18:46.000
to me of what's going on,
I'm on your side. If you don't
1040
01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:49.439
make sense to me, I'm against
you, you know. And I see
1041
01:18:49.520 --> 01:18:54.319
like people want to go into a
party and they want to stand by that
1042
01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:58.359
party no matter what they're doing.
I give you a quick example. When
1043
01:18:58.359 --> 01:19:01.279
I was young, I went for
a haircut Italian guy and I had a
1044
01:19:01.319 --> 01:19:06.039
full head of hair and the worst
haircut ever got in my life. And
1045
01:19:06.119 --> 01:19:11.039
I was telling them, Bro,
look what you did. And I'm touching
1046
01:19:11.079 --> 01:19:13.119
my hair. I said, look
what you did to my head. Bro,
1047
01:19:13.600 --> 01:19:16.000
he says, because he we both
Italians. I said, what the
1048
01:19:16.000 --> 01:19:19.600
fuck does that matter? You get
me a bad haircut. I don't care
1049
01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:24.680
if you're Italian, Jewish, black, white green. It's a bad haircut.
1050
01:19:26.119 --> 01:19:29.399
So I'm not you know, just
because I'm Italian, I'm on your
1051
01:19:29.479 --> 01:19:31.560
side, or just because I'm a
Republican, I'm not. I'm not in
1052
01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:38.239
that. But I go with or
against you know what I think is right
1053
01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:43.079
for the country, because even for
people I don't like, it should be
1054
01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:46.239
good. You know why, I
have to live with you. I have
1055
01:19:46.319 --> 01:19:53.520
to live with people I like and
people I don't. I really want things
1056
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:59.920
to be good. Calm down.
All this racist stuff and stuff should go
1057
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:03.560
way. I mean, we're all
working together, we're interburied, we're interrelated
1058
01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:08.960
in so many different ways for people. And I got one question for you.
1059
01:20:09.119 --> 01:20:13.159
Yeah, when are you going to
make that movie with the bed that
1060
01:20:13.359 --> 01:20:15.359
chased you through the woods? Right? Why are you gonna do a part
1061
01:20:15.439 --> 01:20:18.920
two? Well, my character's dead, he died. I don't have to
1062
01:20:18.960 --> 01:20:23.359
do the people I know take that
part. I'll take that part. I'll
1063
01:20:23.359 --> 01:20:26.560
play that part. Do you know
that? You take my great? Thank
1064
01:20:26.600 --> 01:20:31.000
You want to know something funny.
I'm in North Carolina and my ex wife
1065
01:20:31.039 --> 01:20:34.920
and I are on vacation with her
family. They lived in Georgia and we
1066
01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:40.479
used to vacation in Wilmington North Carolina's
because it was just a quick drive for
1067
01:20:40.520 --> 01:20:42.279
them. It was like a seven
hour drive. They could do it in
1068
01:20:42.319 --> 01:20:46.039
one day. And we rented a
house on the beaches there in Wilmington for
1069
01:20:46.279 --> 01:20:51.560
almost ten years, like nine years, and uh uh. And I'd done
1070
01:20:51.920 --> 01:20:55.720
a reading in La and we were
living a lot of the time in La.
1071
01:20:55.840 --> 01:20:59.720
Then I did a reading of that
movie with de Niro was gonna play
1072
01:20:59.720 --> 01:21:02.039
the lead. And then Bob comes
and does the reading. There's a bunch
1073
01:21:02.039 --> 01:21:05.960
of producers there and the writer and
the director and the writer was Mammot and
1074
01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:09.560
they read the movie and Bob leaves
HI. When I get the phone call
1075
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:11.640
this a Bob doesn't want to do
the movie. He doesn't think it's right
1076
01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:15.760
for him. So I get on
the plane. I go to Carolina on
1077
01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:20.359
vacation with my wife's family, my
ex wife's family, and they call me
1078
01:21:20.399 --> 01:21:24.920
on the phone and they go Tony
Hopkins is going to do the movie.
1079
01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:29.279
And I broke down crying. I
was sitting on a bed. I'll never
1080
01:21:29.239 --> 01:21:31.159
forget I'm in a bed in the
house we were renting on the beach in
1081
01:21:31.199 --> 01:21:35.039
North Carolina, and I started crying
and I thought, oh God, because
1082
01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:38.760
this business has always been who you
work with. Now. Even though the
1083
01:21:38.760 --> 01:21:42.239
movie didn't come out the way I
wanted it to, because there's a lot
1084
01:21:42.239 --> 01:21:45.720
of things they cut. The movie
was much more of a psychological thriller than
1085
01:21:45.720 --> 01:21:48.039
it was an action movie. The
bear was a little bit less prominent.
1086
01:21:48.079 --> 01:21:50.760
It was more like him and I
fucking with each other about his wife and
1087
01:21:50.760 --> 01:21:56.880
so forth, and me trying to
get under his skin, and just like
1088
01:21:56.880 --> 01:22:02.399
a lot of weird dialogue and interesting
stuff to act. But I never look
1089
01:22:02.439 --> 01:22:05.800
at movies and think about how they
what's the result. I don't really care,
1090
01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:10.199
because it's not my responsibility. I
don't make the movie. Somebody else
1091
01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:13.159
does. I show up. I
try to understand what you want. I
1092
01:22:13.199 --> 01:22:15.640
try to help figure out what you
want. Some directors don't know what they
1093
01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:18.239
want, or maybe they have an
idea, but they don't know how to
1094
01:22:18.279 --> 01:22:21.359
communicate to you. They may have
a good idea, but they doesn't know
1095
01:22:21.439 --> 01:22:26.199
how to talk and say it to
you. For actress, and so we
1096
01:22:26.239 --> 01:22:28.960
do the movie. And even though
the movie didn't come out the way I
1097
01:22:28.960 --> 01:22:30.800
hoped it would, it was not
what I hoped it would be. It's
1098
01:22:30.840 --> 01:22:34.399
still my favorite movie and the best
experience I've ever had because of Tony.
1099
01:22:34.439 --> 01:22:38.520
I mean I just worshiped Tony.
I mean I worshiped him, and to
1100
01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:41.359
be with him, he was just, oh my god. He just done
1101
01:22:41.439 --> 01:22:45.199
Nixon and he just finished you with
Nixon. For months and months and months
1102
01:22:45.199 --> 01:22:47.920
with Tony, Hot with Oliver Stone, and he did that movie with me,
1103
01:22:48.279 --> 01:22:53.439
and I did that movie with him. It was nineteen ninety six,
1104
01:22:54.279 --> 01:22:58.479
twenty six years ago, and it
was like the greatest experience about it,
1105
01:22:58.479 --> 01:23:00.760
because I mean, movies are always
about who you work with. You know,
1106
01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:02.960
I'd work with Meryl Streep, I
work with this guy, I work
1107
01:23:03.039 --> 01:23:10.159
with that guy, and and my
peers. There's some of them I really
1108
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:12.399
enjoyed working with. But you always
say to me, if you said to
1109
01:23:12.439 --> 01:23:14.720
me, who do you want to
make a movie with, I'd say,
1110
01:23:14.760 --> 01:23:16.760
well, I want to make a
movie with John Garfield. You know,
1111
01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:21.319
I want to make a movie with
Bogart. I mean my peers. I
1112
01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:24.279
like to make a movie with a
few of them, but not many,
1113
01:23:24.359 --> 01:23:26.560
you know, the people I really
admire with people who you know, I
1114
01:23:26.600 --> 01:23:29.560
want to make a movie with William
Holden, you know, something like that.
1115
01:23:29.680 --> 01:23:33.319
So the uh do we have it? I go to this one more
1116
01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:42.199
thing, here the podcast with Jim
Carroll, whose idea was that that was
1117
01:23:42.520 --> 01:23:45.039
uh, you know, when I
when I got out of prison, I
1118
01:23:45.199 --> 01:23:49.319
was going to write a book,
a second book. I was going to
1119
01:23:49.399 --> 01:23:54.760
write my I was helping my wife
write a book. Somebody came to my
1120
01:23:54.840 --> 01:24:01.359
wife and talked about doing a podcast
and she if I would help her with
1121
01:24:01.399 --> 01:24:08.199
it, and I agreed to it, and I started doing the podcast.
1122
01:24:08.520 --> 01:24:14.399
It was James Carol came to me. He was going to do a documentary
1123
01:24:14.439 --> 01:24:19.640
about me, and he was asking
information and he had turned around and said,
1124
01:24:19.680 --> 01:24:25.760
oh wow, I'd love to work
with you with this podcast. So
1125
01:24:25.960 --> 01:24:30.439
I said all right, and I
said, how do you think it'll He
1126
01:24:30.520 --> 01:24:34.039
says, I heard you know you
talk. If you could talk like that
1127
01:24:34.560 --> 01:24:40.119
and on a podcast, he said, you'll get twenty five million hits.
1128
01:24:40.520 --> 01:24:44.239
I started laughing. I had just
got out of prison not so long ago.
1129
01:24:44.800 --> 01:24:46.760
I said, I know I could
get ten people for sure, my
1130
01:24:46.880 --> 01:24:50.600
ex wife, my son, my
daughter. I am now going to get
1131
01:24:50.640 --> 01:24:55.800
twenty five million people. I think
as of today we got eighty five million
1132
01:24:56.239 --> 01:25:01.000
views. So he was right.
I mean, yeah, yeah, we
1133
01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:06.319
I have five hundred and twenty thousand
subscribers and we got eighty four eighty five.
1134
01:25:06.359 --> 01:25:10.920
Who are you with? Who are
you with? What do you mean?
1135
01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:15.039
What? Who streams you? What
company are you with? I don't
1136
01:25:15.079 --> 01:25:18.119
even know what. Okay, I
do my own thing. And on sending
1137
01:25:18.159 --> 01:25:27.560
to bull dot com. It's out
now on that I was who organic?
1138
01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:30.159
It's organic growth. They're telling me, I don't know tech stuff. It
1139
01:25:30.239 --> 01:25:34.520
was organic. Nobody pushed it,
nobody did anything. It just went on
1140
01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:41.840
YouTube. It went out on a
few areas on UH and a few interviews,
1141
01:25:42.399 --> 01:25:45.359
and it just went nuts. People
just loved that story. I mean
1142
01:25:45.359 --> 01:25:48.560
that Johnny Keys and the whole thing. So you're making a few bucks,
1143
01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:55.239
a few bucks, but I'm I'm
now coming in. I'm actually signed up
1144
01:25:55.319 --> 01:26:00.760
doing There's somebody who wants to do
my scripted story, that Johnny Key story.
1145
01:26:00.800 --> 01:26:03.680
They want to make a movie out
of it and a Broadway play and
1146
01:26:03.720 --> 01:26:09.439
a documentary. So that's what I'm
talking to now doing it. And I'm
1147
01:26:09.439 --> 01:26:14.079
in contract actually with it. They're
gonna get made that I'm even talking about
1148
01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:17.239
it. But I'm talking about it
with Alex. He forced me to do
1149
01:26:17.279 --> 01:26:21.720
it. I made it exactly like
I could make you do anything. Now,
1150
01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:25.640
now make sure you keep one thing
in mind, and that is,
1151
01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:29.039
if they do this scripted stuff about
you, you make you're sure you have
1152
01:26:29.079 --> 01:26:32.319
a really good consultation with who's gonna
play you in the movie, because there's
1153
01:26:32.319 --> 01:26:34.840
probably not a lot of There might
be one or two guys I can think
1154
01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:38.800
of off the top of my head
who would have the balls to play you,
1155
01:26:38.880 --> 01:26:41.680
Who could really have the balls to
play you in a movie. I
1156
01:26:41.720 --> 01:26:45.880
see movies now and I think to
myself, the casting is just heartbreaking.
1157
01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:48.399
Nothing that that people are bad actress. It has nothing to do with that.
1158
01:26:48.439 --> 01:26:51.720
They're very perfectly competent actress. They're
just not right for that part.
1159
01:26:53.079 --> 01:26:56.399
That character has a soul, that
character. You know, you're, You're,
1160
01:26:56.479 --> 01:26:59.079
You're, You're a very complicated guy. You know what one minute?
1161
01:26:59.600 --> 01:27:03.720
One minute you you you take an
omeerta an oath of silence. Then they
1162
01:27:03.800 --> 01:27:06.359
got eighty five million people listening to
you on a podcast, you know what
1163
01:27:06.359 --> 01:27:13.119
I mean? Whoever thought if you
if Sammy Gravano then could see Sammy Gravano,
1164
01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:17.039
Now you'd be sitting there going,
what the fuck is this? I'm
1165
01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:21.159
on a radio show and I'm telling
everybody all about Frankie, Frankie Balls and
1166
01:27:21.199 --> 01:27:27.039
Tommy bags and Joey Salami. I'm
you're telling all your stories. But my
1167
01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:30.680
point is you make sure that whoever
plays you, they got to get a
1168
01:27:30.680 --> 01:27:34.960
guy that has it. He's got
to have it. And not a lot
1169
01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:38.760
of guys out there like that now
there aren't, you know. Yeah,
1170
01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:43.199
all right, we'll work on that. Listen if I have if I have
1171
01:27:43.239 --> 01:27:45.960
trouble, I'll give you a call. You call me anytime. You call
1172
01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:47.600
me anytime. Listen. I'm not
kidding you, and you can do listen.
1173
01:27:47.800 --> 01:27:51.479
Thank you very much. I appreciate
it too, Okay, buddy,
1174
01:27:51.640 --> 01:27:56.760
Yeah, what is the name of
your podcast? Our thing is the name
1175
01:27:56.800 --> 01:28:01.319
of the podcast. It's our thing. Okay, great, thank you,
1176
01:28:01.399 --> 01:28:04.119
Thank you buddy. We'll see you
down the road. Thank you, my
1177
01:28:04.199 --> 01:28:09.199
pleasure. Bye bye, thank you
so much. Wow, thank you so
1178
01:28:09.319 --> 01:28:21.920
much. Brother. Appreciate you guys. All right bye bye h