WEBVTT
00:00:00.940 -->
00:00:09.650Hello, my friends, and welcome back to the Exam Study Experts podcast this summer, and today I've got a little replay episode for you.
00:00:09.650 -->
00:00:19.847We're going to be revisiting one of my all-time favourite interviews, which first aired a little over a year ago a year sort of 18 months ago with the great John Dunlosky.
00:00:19.847 -->
00:00:27.562This is a real jewel in our crown, in my view, and if you've already heard it, it's going to be well worth a revisit today.
00:00:27.562 -->
00:00:31.806If you haven't caught it yet, then you're in for a treat else in the world.
00:00:31.806 -->
00:01:01.375He's the kind of academic researcher who is the kind of original source, together with his team and his colleagues and collaborators kind of the original source of many of the core principles that are central to the exam study expert's way of doing things and learning more effectively, saving you time when preparing for your tests and exams.
00:01:02.098 -->
00:01:12.462Just before we dive in today, it's been a big season of results, for example, here in my home country, the UK, with with the big GCSE and A-level school results days this week just gone in the previous week.
00:01:12.462 -->
00:01:17.052Many congratulations to many of the students I've been supporting this year.
00:01:17.052 -->
00:01:21.600I've been hearing some wonderful things about how you've been all getting on and some fantastic sets of results.
00:01:21.600 -->
00:01:22.822You should all be really, really proud.
00:01:22.822 -->
00:01:24.186So really well done.
00:01:25.147 -->
00:01:40.965And to those of you who are looking ahead to things to come, I know many of you starting to, particularly in the us, for example, starting to get back into the new term or semester, and for some of my professionals that I work with, you've got your big exams looming in october, november, the board, specialist exams and so forth.
00:01:40.965 -->
00:01:45.072Very best of of luck with getting into the sharp end of the prep.
00:01:45.072 -->
00:01:50.950With that, my thoughts, with you all, whatever stage you're at with your academic journey.
00:01:50.950 -->
00:02:14.367And what better time than, with that backdrop of new beginnings and for some of you coming towards the sharp end of things, to revisit some of the core principles that are going to help us prepare for exams in the most time efficient way how to apply the science of learning to score as highly as possible in our tests and exams with the least possible work and stress.
00:02:14.367 -->
00:02:19.201Without further ado, then, let me welcome John Dunlosky back to the podcast.
00:02:19.201 -->
00:02:23.325I really hope you enjoy this replay episode first broadcast in 2024.
00:02:23.325 -->
00:02:25.729Enjoy, john.
00:02:25.729 -->
00:02:28.991A very warm welcome to the Exam Study Expert podcast.
00:02:29.673 -->
00:02:32.436It's my pleasure to be here talking with you and all your listeners.
00:02:37.759 -->
00:02:38.983Wonderful to have you with us.
00:02:38.983 -->
00:02:43.611I wondered if we could maybe start by just painting us a little bit of a vision or a rainbow of kind of you know why this stuff matters so much.
00:02:43.611 -->
00:02:58.086So I guess, both from your kind of experience in helping students with study habits, and maybe a little bit from the kind of evidence as well, like what is the win for getting our study habits, our approach to learning good, what does it feel like when we can learn well?
00:02:58.086 -->
00:03:00.552What does it mean in terms of our performance?
00:03:00.552 -->
00:03:05.010Yeah, I wonder if we just sort of inspire people with the promise and the power of some of this stuff.
00:03:05.031 -->
00:03:08.941Well, there's a lot of power with this stuff and the win eventually is big.
00:03:08.941 -->
00:03:15.223But to get to the win you kind of have to understand some of the inherent losses that occur on the way, right?
00:03:15.223 -->
00:03:22.890So I think one of the biggest struggles that really holds students back is some of them get the notion that learning is easy or should be easy.
00:03:22.890 -->
00:03:25.978And let me just disabuse all your listeners.
00:03:25.978 -->
00:03:28.966Learning of any sort that's important is difficult.
00:03:28.966 -->
00:03:35.037Whether it's developing a new knowledge base, learning how to solve problems, learning a new skill, it's just difficult.
00:03:35.037 -->
00:03:40.242So anyone telling you it's easy and they have something to sell you that's going to make it easy you can pretty much ignore them, right?
00:03:40.242 -->
00:03:42.450So those are the losses on the way to win.
00:03:42.872 -->
00:03:47.688And really what got me excited about learning strategies was early experiences with students.
00:03:47.688 -->
00:03:53.211They'd come to my office kind of down in the mouth because they did poorly on the first exam.
00:03:53.211 -->
00:04:02.306And when I was a young assistant professor, when they would tell me I really struggled, I worked really hard but yet I did poorly, my first thought was inappropriate.
00:04:02.306 -->
00:04:02.768And that's what?
00:04:02.768 -->
00:04:04.451Well, you really didn't work hard.
00:04:04.451 -->
00:04:08.550And my thought was totally inaccurate because these students really did work hard.
00:04:08.550 -->
00:04:21.326That's why they're so frustrated, and what I came to realize over the years is that, yeah, they're working hard, but they're doing the wrong things, so they're making something difficult even more difficult and frustrating by not using effective strategies.
00:04:22.040 -->
00:04:29.329Note and this is very important the effective strategies don't necessarily make learning easier, but they make your learning successful.
00:04:29.329 -->
00:04:31.923So you're going to have struggles on the way.
00:04:31.923 -->
00:04:35.432If you're not struggling, I'd say there's probably something going wrong.
00:04:35.432 -->
00:04:45.483There's going to be struggles on the way, but the effective strategies will finally get you to that successful learning point that we're all searching for, and that itself is the own intrinsic reward.
00:04:45.483 -->
00:04:56.886But just too many students are going about studying in the wrong ways, which are going to lead to again making learning more difficult and, quite frankly, a lot more frustrating, giving students a sense that they can't do it.
00:04:56.886 -->
00:05:00.060They can't get it done, when I know that's incorrect.
00:05:00.060 -->
00:05:01.425Any student can excel.
00:05:01.425 -->
00:05:07.086If they use the right strategies and they approach learning with the right attitude, it can be a lot of fun actually.
00:05:07.687 -->
00:05:11.245Really interesting that point about it should feel a little bit challenging or stretching.
00:05:11.245 -->
00:05:15.425It shouldn't feel like a complete walk in the park, and I think people have a really good intuition about this.
00:05:15.425 -->
00:05:23.630When it comes to training the body, if you're going out on a run or hitting the gym and lifting some weights, you wouldn't expect it to be as easy as possible.
00:05:23.630 -->
00:05:36.545You would expect it to be a bit challenging and to stretch yourself, and that's sort of why it works, and I just don't think we have the same intuitions, naturally, about training the mind, and so we need to teach ourselves that that's what we're aiming for.
00:05:36.959 -->
00:05:43.810Agreed with you 100%, absolutely, because if it's easy, that means probably you can already do it, you already know it, you're already there, which is wonderful.
00:05:43.810 -->
00:05:45.552Now it's time to take on a new challenge.
00:05:45.552 -->
00:05:47.896You know, add a little extra weights to that, barbell.
00:05:48.339 -->
00:05:49.382And when we can do that then.
00:05:49.382 -->
00:06:04.531So I guess maybe some of the students you've taught over the years what are some of the things they say or that you kind of hear from them when it does start to fall into place you know, maybe they hadn't been studying particularly effectively before Like what does it feel like for them when they start to get competent with these tools?
00:06:05.574 -->
00:06:06.055I love that.
00:06:06.055 -->
00:06:24.446So, with respect to feeling getting comfortable and competent with these tools and some of them that I really talk a lot about because they're kind of all-purpose general tools to help students out, you know, when students embrace the tools something we can talk about success of relearning and retrieval practice first they'll notice that they're struggling more.
00:06:24.446 -->
00:06:27.593They're using a tool that kind of they already know about flashcards.
00:06:27.593 -->
00:06:34.360But using this tool for more difficult content basically produces some struggles and barriers, right.
00:06:34.360 -->
00:06:47.709What I get from students who finally embrace this are feedback like I can't believe I can learn so well, I can't believe how much I can retain, I wish someone had told me about these strategies earlier, so on and so forth.
00:06:47.709 -->
00:06:54.872So you get these students who are excited beyond just the class that I'm discussing these strategies in, but they start then to use it in other classes.
00:06:55.721 -->
00:07:02.886But I think really what's required to get this epiphany is, again, students trying this stuff out on their own and doing it correctly.
00:07:03.286 -->
00:07:07.987So occasionally I will hear from a student well, I'm doing exactly what you're telling me to, but it's not working.
00:07:08.709 -->
00:07:23.206And then we sit down and we talk about well, let me hear what you're doing, and inevitably the students are doing kind of a half-baked version of the strategy, so they're not using it as it was intended to be and hence it's going to fail on them, so it's even more frustrating.
00:07:23.206 -->
00:07:29.716So the idea is that the strategies that we really are suggesting students should be using.
00:07:29.716 -->
00:07:33.732These all-purpose strategies work for everyone if you use them right.
00:07:33.732 -->
00:07:50.701So the thing is trying to get students to embrace them for the first time, to use them with fidelity over a couple months so they can get that excitement and that, potentially for one of the first times in their lives, like wow, I overcame a learning obstacle that I didn't think I could, and look at me, I've mastered it.
00:07:50.701 -->
00:08:04.971I've not only overcome it, but now I've mastered this content that I thought was really difficult and that for me as an instructor and as someone who really cares about student learning, it is so good to see and it's so exciting to see students really have that epiphany and start embracing their studies.
00:08:05.773 -->
00:08:06.954Yeah it's a pretty cool moment.
00:08:07.516 -->
00:08:13.413So I'd love to dive into sort of talking about some of the strategies that you teach and research in a moment.
00:08:13.413 -->
00:08:49.981I'd just love to maybe do a little bit of history first, because I'm sitting across the virtual table, so to speak, with the lead author on one of the, if not the seminal papers in this field the 2013 paper you authored with a fairly starry team of fellow co-authors called Improving Students' Learning with Effective Learning Techniques Promising Directions from Cognitive and Educational Psychology, which, for those that aren't familiar with it, was essentially a review of I believe it's sort of over 400 individual scientific studies, and you were trying to figure out well, okay, from all this evidence we've got now, what are the strategies that are going to serve us best when we're preparing for our tests and exams?
00:08:49.981 -->
00:09:01.393I looked on Google Scholar earlier today and it's been cited 4,108 times to date, so that easily places it among the most influential papers in this field.
00:09:01.393 -->
00:09:15.701Those that don't know how academia works when you write a new paper, you often reference previous work that's been done, that you're building on in your new paper, and that's what we mean by a citation.
00:09:15.701 -->
00:09:23.585There's over 4,000 other papers that have cited this as some of the origins of their own ideas for what they're doing, their next bit of research on, so incredibly influential, to that title of the paper.
00:09:23.605 -->
00:09:39.610I think we've probably gone well beyond the promising directions a strapline you gave it back then and this stuff's kind of now at least from what I can see increasingly mainstream, as it should be, in terms of at least being sort of talked about, if not always perfectly practiced.
00:09:39.610 -->
00:09:40.692But we can talk about that.
00:09:40.692 -->
00:09:47.389I guess my question was yeah, looking back over the last decade, did you know at the time this was going to have its impact?
00:09:47.389 -->
00:09:51.505What's your feeling on the impact and where we've come over the last decade with this?
00:09:52.248 -->
00:10:10.169Well, of course, I feel really great that all the effort that was put into that monograph by not only myself but my wonderful group of co-authors has had such a positive impact and, my goodness, I wish I could capture that in a bottle and like deal it out again, right, so we can keep having such an impact.
00:10:10.169 -->
00:10:26.221You know, I'm really not sure exactly why this particular paper resonated with folks in the education land, except for maybe that our message, I hope, was relatively clear about what strategies we think work best and which strategies don't work best.
00:10:26.221 -->
00:10:36.842And I think part of the eye-opener maybe that was a head-turning is that many of the strategies that we evaluated were the strategies that we know students use, right, the strategies that I use.
00:10:36.842 -->
00:10:41.041Quite frankly, things like I have my favorite highlighters that I highlight textbooks up with.
00:10:41.041 -->
00:10:48.046I go back and reread content a great deal, two strategies that students say they rely on quite a bit.
00:10:48.046 -->
00:11:04.841And when we started perusing the literature on all of the various strategies that students appear to use or strategies that some cognitive psychologists said were relatively effective, what really impressed us was that some of the strategies that students used really weren't that effective.
00:11:04.841 -->
00:11:13.570But let me make a very important caveat here, and I'll do it with just one example because I think it'll make most sense Take your favorite highlighters.
00:11:13.570 -->
00:11:16.131So almost everybody highlights.
00:11:16.131 -->
00:11:18.754It's a very natural thing to do.
00:11:18.754 -->
00:11:25.773I think it helps my attention when I'm reading and it turns out research done on highlighting.
00:11:25.773 -->
00:11:33.797One relatively straightforward example would be you have some students highlight while they're reading okay, and you just have other students read the content and then you test them on the material.
00:11:33.797 -->
00:11:42.991It turns out that highlighting that material the students who highlighted, tend not to do that much better or any better on that upcoming test than students who didn't highlight.
00:11:42.991 -->
00:11:47.503So hence it really doesn't add a lot of benefit to just reading.
00:11:47.864 -->
00:11:50.350Now here's the critical aspects of this research.
00:11:50.350 -->
00:11:56.113First, highlighting or just reading don't really improve learning that much anyway.
00:11:56.113 -->
00:12:00.566So everyone's performing relatively poorly on these exams, right?
00:12:00.566 -->
00:12:10.985The bottom line here is, yeah, highlighting doesn't improve your learning that much, but I would never take a highlighter away from a student.
00:12:11.025 -->
00:12:19.110So you think about a highlighter as a very specific technique and it's meant for the beginning of the learning journey, when you're just identifying what you need to go back to learn really well.
00:12:19.110 -->
00:12:31.625And then the idea you use this highlighter, which really doesn't add much bang to your buck with respect to that first study session and then you go back and engage in the material that you highlighted in a way that is really effective.
00:12:31.625 -->
00:12:39.740That's not only going to boost your learning a little bit but that's going to actually get you to those levels of retention, memory comprehension right.
00:12:39.740 -->
00:12:45.186That's going to help you excel on an exam and help you retain that material for a long period of time.
00:12:45.186 -->
00:12:52.350It just turns out that some kind of techniques like just going back and rereading that highlighted material over and over again really doesn't have a lot of cachet.
00:12:52.350 -->
00:12:53.903It's not going to boost your memory that much.
00:12:53.903 -->
00:12:57.440You need to use more effective, more engaging strategies when you go.
00:12:58.081 -->
00:13:03.368So I think some of the outcomes of our review of the literature weren't so surprising to us.
00:13:03.368 -->
00:13:08.195I didn't think highlighting would actually benefit memory that much because it's not that engaging.
00:13:08.195 -->
00:13:16.648Nevertheless, I think it was surprising to folks who aren't cognitive psychologists right, who don't have their head in the game and in particular, what does work well.
00:13:16.648 -->
00:13:21.645I think many cognitive psychologists knew about this, but many educators didn't right.
00:13:21.645 -->
00:13:31.265Or they understood that some techniques were good but they didn't understand why they were good and I think the monograph kind of helped highlight why some of these strategies are good and when you should use them.
00:13:31.265 -->
00:13:35.288So I think that was kind of a long-winded answer to your question, but I hope I touched on it.
00:13:35.860 -->
00:13:53.419That's great and certainly what I sort of see here in the UK, particularly in the last well, really, the sort of 10 years since that came out, you know, there's just been an explosion of at least awareness and we can maybe get on to implementation, you know, certainly among teachers, and then that sort of filters down to students in turn.
00:13:53.419 -->
00:13:59.833And when I was at school in the early 2000s there was very little, if at all, being talked about.
00:13:59.833 -->
00:14:03.009You know, I attended university in 2008.
00:14:03.009 -->
00:14:09.207We had a lecture and it was touching on some of these new ideas about kind of cognitive psychology, of learning and retrieval practice.
00:14:09.207 -->
00:14:17.371I was very excited by the ideas back then but they were still kind of just, you know, in the lab or in the literature and they hadn't yet filtered out into the world.
00:14:17.371 -->
00:14:21.269And it's really exciting to see the extent to which that has now filtered out into the world.
00:14:21.711 -->
00:14:22.332Absolutely.
00:14:22.332 -->
00:14:26.201When I was an undergrad.
00:14:26.201 -->
00:14:31.033Actually, I was sat in a one-day course before I started and they told us two techniques to use to study for classes.
00:14:31.033 -->
00:14:33.865I had no idea how to prepare for classes.
00:14:33.865 -->
00:14:35.470I was just a normal high school student.
00:14:35.470 -->
00:14:38.946I knew I was woefully underprepared to be a college student.
00:14:38.946 -->
00:14:45.601Both of the techniques they told us to use I used religiously for the first year of my college experience.
00:14:45.601 -->
00:14:49.880I had really good grades using them and I thought well, I'll just continue to use these.
00:14:50.763 -->
00:15:15.273It turns out one of the strategies that I was using I wasn't even aware of at the time, but I was doing investigations on that strategy with my mentor as an undergrad, professor Harry Baric, and then, after I left undergrad to go on to grad school, I totally forgot about these strategies until 20 years later when I wrote the monograph and realized one of the strategies that we were evaluating was what I used as an undergrad.
00:15:15.273 -->
00:15:17.927And then the light bulbs really went off for me.
00:15:17.927 -->
00:15:26.653It's like, oh my goodness, why didn't I just base my career initially on these strategies instead of forgetting about them for 20 years and coming back?
00:15:26.653 -->
00:15:36.793So at least when I started doing this review, at least with my own reflection I realized, wow, some of these strategies must work well, because they worked well for me as an undergrad.
00:15:36.793 -->
00:15:42.120But then when I started looking at the evidence, it's like, wow, they do work well and thank you.
00:15:42.120 -->
00:15:44.163Whoever told me to use these strategies?
00:15:44.163 -->
00:15:45.650Thank you, thank you.
00:15:45.650 -->
00:15:52.756Thank you because they helped me a great deal, to give me kind of confidence that I could pass any class as an undergrad, believe it or not.
00:15:52.797 -->
00:15:58.760It was how to take notes, in a way to allow me to use retrieval practice to memorize the notes.
00:15:58.760 -->
00:16:18.017So after I was finished you know my several study sessions for each group of notes I knew them cold, could walk into any exam and just easy, breezy, pass it, because you know as challenging as learning is, passing college courses is not as challenging as one might expect.
00:16:18.017 -->
00:16:23.676So it's you use the right strategies, you stay diligent, you keep at it and you will succeed.
00:16:23.676 -->
00:16:26.524Right, some of the content that students want to learn.
00:16:26.524 -->
00:16:30.259They don't want to learn it just to get a good grade in class.
00:16:30.259 -->
00:16:33.889They want to learn it, to master it, so they can use it subsequently.
00:16:33.889 -->
00:16:37.121And these strategies are critical for long-term retention and use.
00:16:37.121 -->
00:16:49.029So, not to be totally flip about this, but these strategies are really great well beyond college when you're just preparing for all the circumstances that occur in the work life and in preparing for your job.
00:16:49.029 -->
00:16:52.184So these are all purpose strategies that just work well.
00:16:52.655 -->
00:16:58.969I mean, many of our listeners are professionals and they're taking exams as part of their careers in finance and medicine.
00:16:58.969 -->
00:17:07.979Yeah, I mean, people have this idea that we finish college and then we're done with exams and sort of no, no, no, no, no For many career paths, you're only just getting started.
00:17:08.480 -->
00:17:11.426Well, yeah, not only many career paths but many hobby paths.
00:17:11.426 -->
00:17:15.320I mean, we'll pick up new hobbies and say, well, I can't do this, I'm not capable of this.
00:17:15.320 -->
00:17:16.163Well, sure you are.
00:17:16.163 -->
00:17:28.548It's just something you need to learn how to do and embrace and realize that life is long and there's plenty of time to master anything, if you just take your time and use the right strategies to excel.
00:17:29.775 -->
00:17:48.929So we've been teasing a few of the sort of strategies along the way, but I wonder if we could just take a moment to sort of step back and give a bit of a bird's eye view of the 10 big ones you talked about in the original 2013 paper and perhaps I noted in your new book, study Like a Champ, you grouped them effectively into four categories.
00:17:49.015 -->
00:17:53.895So you've got a whole chapter dedicated to spacing, a whole chapter dedicated to retrieval practice.
00:17:53.895 -->
00:18:09.098You've got another chapter which is a kind of group of problem-based strategies so interleaving, self-explanation works, examples and then the fourth chapter on the strategies is the other ones that might not work so well but could have a role, as you were describing earlier, for highlighting.
00:18:09.098 -->
00:18:12.959So that's highlighting, as you've said, rereading, summarising and imagery.
00:18:12.959 -->
00:18:30.310So I wonder if, without going into loads of detail on each one, maybe just talk us through those four main chapters effectively and why you decided to group them that way, and if anyone listening to this is new to the idea of sort of what works, what doesn't, maybe just give us a little bit of a flavor for the kind of headline findings Perfect.
00:18:31.675 -->
00:18:42.284Well, I've kind of already foreshadowed some of this with my discussion of highlighting, and one misconstrual which is probably my fault from the monograph is that some of these strategies that we reviewed don't work.
00:18:42.284 -->
00:18:47.151They all work for something okay, but they're just not all general purpose tools.
00:18:47.151 -->
00:18:48.460So let's take another one imagery.
00:18:48.460 -->
00:19:05.615Imagery is when you have content that is concrete, that is something that you could imagine like, come up with a visual representation in your mind, and it turns out coming up with visual representations can be really good for memory okay, and long-term retention, so in a way, it is an effective strategy.
00:19:05.615 -->
00:19:22.378In that monograph, though and I want to make this very clear what we were doing was evaluating strategies on not only are they effective, but are they generally effective, that is, are they going to be good for any kind of student, are they going to be good for any kind of content, and really that's where the dividing line happens.
00:19:22.378 -->
00:19:23.642So let's go back to imagery.
00:19:23.642 -->
00:19:25.445Imagery can be pretty effective.
00:19:25.445 -->
00:19:35.785However, it won't work for anyone who's incapable of developing mental images, and there are people who claim and report appropriately they cannot develop mental images.
00:19:35.785 -->
00:19:45.121So it's not going to help everybody, and mental imagery is only going to help students for content that you can actually come up with visual representations for.
00:19:45.121 -->
00:19:49.898So it can be a very effective strategy in the very specific times it's useful.
00:19:49.898 -->
00:19:56.701So things like imagery, highlighting, rereading, which play a role in learning, are a little bit more constrained.
00:19:56.701 -->
00:19:57.865They can't help you with everything.
00:19:57.865 -->
00:20:11.255So those were kind of the last end of the chapters like use these specialty strategies just at the right moment when they're most effective, like if you're someone who can image and enjoys imaging for content that can be approached by using visual images.
00:20:11.255 -->
00:20:33.346There were these general though strategies that appeared to be useful for any kind of content that worked for any students, and these turn out to be all purpose strategies spacing, retrieval practice, a special combination of the both called successive relearning, which we really think is an important strategy to use.
00:20:33.346 -->
00:20:38.148So these strategies are all purpose because, again, they can work for any kind of content and for any student.
00:20:38.148 -->
00:20:45.566So let me just, if you don't mind, let me go dig deep very briefly into one of these, which is the combination of space practice and retrieval practice.
00:20:45.566 -->
00:20:54.940Space practice is simply studying something on one day, so you read content that you want to learn on one day and come back to the same content on another day.
00:20:54.940 -->
00:20:56.604That is your space and your learning.
00:20:56.604 -->
00:21:00.940Retrieval practice is just when you try to retrieve content from memory without looking.
00:21:00.940 -->
00:21:15.809Both of these strategies we've known for 100 years are really really good, and when you combine them both, it's called successive relearning, as long as when you're using retrieval practice, you continue to use it until you get it right.
00:21:16.474 -->
00:21:19.884So the best way to explain the strategy is just through the use of flashcards.
00:21:19.884 -->
00:21:20.707You're going through it.
00:21:20.707 -->
00:21:27.501Everyone knows how to use flashcards, right, except imagine now you're using this with very difficult content, like difficult definitions.
00:21:27.501 -->
00:21:31.661You're recalling the definitions from the memory, but you're failing Well on that first session.
00:21:31.661 -->
00:21:34.067You keep going, fail to recall something.
00:21:34.067 -->
00:21:40.061Study it again, try again later until you can recall the meaning of all those definitions correctly, okay.
00:21:40.061 -->
00:21:46.926Then you come back on another day with the same definitions and you do the same thing, that is, you successively relearn them across trials.
00:21:46.926 -->
00:21:55.561This success of relearning provides a major boost in students' memory comprehension content right, because you're combining these effective strategies.
00:21:56.703 -->
00:22:16.656Despite its power, it also requires one other skill that many students don't work on a lot, which is time management, because in order to successfully relearn or to use space practice, you need to come back to the same content multiple times across time, right before you're eventually tested on this.
00:22:16.656 -->
00:22:27.749So students have to kind of be ready to use this right from day one, because they need to manage their time and develop study sessions across time so they can keep coming back to the content over and over again.
00:22:27.749 -->
00:22:42.811In our book Study Like a Champ, we provide examples on how to manage your time to do this well, but the idea is, what we're begging students not to do is to simply just cram for exams for those classes that you really want to excel at.
00:22:42.811 -->
00:22:44.976So am I telling students never to cram?
00:22:44.976 -->
00:22:48.542No, everybody crams probably reduces anxiety.
00:22:48.542 -->
00:22:55.086I don't want students spending the entire night before an exam studying because you should get a good night's sleep before that exam.
00:22:55.086 -->
00:23:04.500And I'm not telling you not to study the night before, but really, for effective learners begin several weeks before the exam so they can space their practice in an effective way.
00:23:05.082 -->
00:23:21.842In fact, students, non-students everybody has something they do really well typically, and almost every student can tell me something they do well, like whether it's playing first-person action, shooter games, playing an instrument, doing blah, blah, blah, and you start asking people well, how did you get good at that?
00:23:21.842 -->
00:23:24.468And what they'll explain to you is success of relearning.
00:23:24.468 -->
00:23:34.619So what people use naturally to master things outside of education, they just need to bring into education and know they can use it here.
00:23:34.619 -->
00:23:38.729It does take time, so this strategy is time-consuming.
00:23:38.729 -->
00:23:51.778So I recommend to students only to use it on those classes they really want to excel in or to material that they need to retain for a long period of time, unless, of course, the students pretty much have all day to study, in which case they can use it on every class.
00:23:51.898 -->
00:23:58.419Right, it just depends how much time they're using on extracurricular activities like having fun, having a job and all that kind of stuff.
00:23:58.419 -->
00:24:15.700So there was kind of a rambly babbly version of those strategies some that are general purpose that we really highly recommend people use, like spacing, retrieval practice, and some that are kind of very specific strategies that you only use at times and they're really necessary.
00:24:15.700 -->
00:24:19.256I rarely use those specific strategies when I study.
00:24:19.256 -->
00:24:20.538I just stick to the biggies.
00:24:20.538 -->
00:24:22.825Successive relearning for me all the way.
00:24:23.567 -->
00:24:24.028I'm with you.
00:24:24.028 -->
00:24:24.568I'm with you.
00:24:24.568 -->
00:24:34.102I mean, regular listeners to the show will probably recognize successive relearning as what we more commonly call spaced retrieval practice just combining the two terms itself.
00:24:34.102 -->
00:24:36.916But I think we're talking about the same principle, aren't we?
00:24:36.916 -->
00:24:46.396It's the idea of taking the retrieval practice, doing the testing, trying to remember what you know.
00:24:46.416 -->
00:24:48.806Flashcards is one good way to do that and then spacing out that practice, repeating it at time intervals.
00:24:48.806 -->
00:24:52.720You know it is almost identical, except for one big difference, and that's for a successive relearning.
00:24:52.720 -->
00:25:02.522On that retrieval practice session you need to keep coming back until you get it right, because the real juice in this learning is eventually retrieving that content from memory.
00:25:02.522 -->
00:25:06.746So you keep going until you get it, which during the first session it could take a while right?
00:25:06.746 -->
00:25:13.280You just don't practice retrieval fail and then stop you practice retrieval, realize oh I don't have it, I need to come back to this one again.
00:25:13.280 -->
00:25:20.048Right, and I totally think that flashcards are a great way to implement success of relearning.
00:25:22.494 -->
00:25:33.208But the major concern then is many students only use flashcards for the most mundane, simplest material, when in fact success of relearning can be used for any kind of content very complicated, very long, lengthy.
00:25:33.208 -->
00:25:40.076With that kind of content lengthy content, long content, difficult you probably don't want to spend all the time making flashcards.
00:25:40.076 -->
00:25:50.265You want to use proxy cards, stuff that can act like flashcards, but you don't spend all that extra time making them right, you just kind of fabricate them out of other things.
00:25:50.265 -->
00:25:56.849And again we have examples in Study Like a Champ, how to do that too, like turning your textbook into a flashcard program.
00:25:56.849 -->
00:26:03.040It's pretty easy to do with some sticky notes and creativity pretty easy to do with some sticky notes and creativity.
00:26:03.060 -->
00:26:03.542Yeah, I love that picture.
00:26:03.542 -->
00:26:06.978I was going to mention that as an example putting sticky notes on your textbook, and so it acts almost like a lift the flap.
00:26:06.978 -->
00:26:09.163Oh, can I remember about what's underneath this bit?
00:26:09.163 -->
00:26:10.857That was a really nice trick.
00:26:10.857 -->
00:26:18.862Another shortcut that often comes up is I'll ask you about digital tools in a second, but just in terms of using, I guess, ready-made flashcards.
00:26:18.862 -->
00:26:24.220You can get ready-made sets of cards on a lot of digital tools Quizlet, brainscape, anki.
00:26:24.220 -->
00:26:27.031You can get the paper equivalents in a lot of stationers.
00:26:27.031 -->
00:26:35.082So for a big standardized test or big public exam, you go into your local bookstore or stationers and you can buy ready-made stacks of cards for that exam.
00:26:35.201 -->
00:26:35.583I love it.
00:26:35.583 -->
00:26:36.866Yeah, I highly recommend those.
00:26:37.095 -->
00:26:39.601Or you mentioned an example of collaborating with friends.
00:26:39.601 -->
00:26:44.292So if ready-made cards aren't available for your course, then divide and conquer between friends.
00:26:44.292 -->
00:26:46.238This is a question I hear quite a bit.
00:26:46.238 -->
00:26:49.686Is it okay to use ready-made cards or should I be making my own?
00:26:50.154 -->
00:26:52.444I can see the value in making one's own.
00:26:52.444 -->
00:26:55.817If you really like to do that things, I would recommend ready-made cards.
00:26:55.817 -->
00:27:02.249If they're not available, get together with a study group, make them for each other, so you kind of spread the work around.
00:27:02.249 -->
00:27:12.605The only one caveat I would have, though some of not all of, but some of the online flashcard programs which did a review of a while ago.
00:27:12.605 -->
00:27:25.742They're not all set up well to allow students to evaluate how well they're learning, that is, some of them can produce an illusion of knowing right To give a student a sense oh God, I have this down really well.
00:27:25.742 -->
00:27:30.026In fact, they kind of force you into thinking you know it well when you haven't learned it well yet.
00:27:30.026 -->
00:27:36.019And I don't want to call out any particular program at this point because I don't want to accidentally mess them up in my memory.
00:27:36.019 -->
00:27:51.073But a really nice paper with Abby O'Brien, graduate student at Kent State, where we just review, I think, about 13 of the available flashcard programs and we consider the degree to which they can be used to implement success of relearning, and at least at that time this is done.
00:27:51.093 -->
00:27:51.952Three or four years ago.
00:27:51.952 -->
00:27:54.843We talk about how much they cost.
00:27:54.843 -->
00:27:55.986Are they freeware?
00:27:55.986 -->
00:28:00.941We are very positive about reducing the time it takes to learn content.
00:28:00.941 -->
00:28:08.718We care a lot about efficiency, so one thing we reviewed is to what degree can you share FlashGuard programs with each other, with friends, through these?
00:28:08.718 -->
00:28:14.545So if you're interested in using the online services, go check out our paper and we review some.
00:28:14.545 -->
00:28:17.336There are others available now that we've learned about that are really good.
00:28:17.336 -->
00:28:21.768So absolutely you don't have to invent all of this stuff on your own.
00:28:21.768 -->
00:28:24.903There are a lot of great resources out there just ready to be used.
00:28:24.903 -->
00:28:26.430You just have to use them in the right way.
00:28:26.912 -->
00:28:36.023Even flash cards can be used in the wrong way, for sure, for sure one of your earlier comments was yeah, everyone knows how to make flash cards, but, um, I think it's not always the case.
00:28:36.023 -->
00:28:56.323I mean, everyone thinks they know how to make flash cards but, you know, I think you put your finger on it when you say we have good intuitions about how to make them basic terminology or definitions or vocab or formulas but when it comes to more in the weeds of concepts and figuring out how to turn this into flashcards, I think that is a little bit of an art and that is something you can practice and get better at.
00:28:56.323 -->
00:29:03.902That's how I learned all my vast amount of factual knowledge I needed to know for my undergraduate exams at Cambridge.
00:29:03.902 -->
00:29:08.922Yeah, it was flashcards all the way, and it certainly wasn't all just like what is the definition of?
00:29:08.922 -->
00:29:11.767You know, some of the concepts were quite much more nuanced and sophisticated.
00:29:12.690 -->
00:29:22.596You know absolutely and you can get what is the definition of, and struggle recalling the meaning of a definition because you don't understand it, and that's when you need a different tool or more help.
00:29:22.596 -->
00:29:28.420So using flashcards in a mindless way isn't useful either.
00:29:28.420 -->
00:29:30.461Yet you're struggling to learn some more difficult content.
00:29:30.461 -->
00:29:32.823That's the time to talk to a friend to make sure you understand it.
00:29:32.823 -->
00:29:54.431That's the time to actually use a resource called your instructor to go talk to them about, like why you don't understand the concept or that you're struggling to learn it, Because sometimes memory can't do everything.
00:29:54.851 -->
00:30:00.174Comprehension processes need to be turned on and at times, that's why we have mentors and instructors.
00:30:00.174 -->
00:30:14.125When we struggle and really aren't learning something well, we need a little help, a little boost, and the boost we get from friends that already understand the content, or instructors or many of the resources that are available online, right.
00:30:14.125 -->
00:30:21.210So none of the strategies that we discuss, including success of relearning, are a panacea for all learning right?
00:30:21.210 -->
00:30:26.722It's not like you'll take this one strategy and now be able to become an expert or excel in anything.
00:30:26.722 -->
00:30:33.614It requires a variety of different strategies and resources to really excel, especially when the content is difficult.
00:30:33.614 -->
00:30:38.593I mean, if anyone could sit down and learn physics on their own, we'd all be physicists.
00:30:38.593 -->
00:30:42.790It takes instructors, mentors, people who were there before us to help us along.
00:30:42.790 -->
00:30:47.871However, anybody can become a physicist if you work at it right and have the right mentorship.
00:30:47.871 -->
00:30:54.458So if you're out there wanting to do something and you're concerned that you may not be able to do it, have efficacy, find the right people.
00:30:54.458 -->
00:30:55.961You can master anything.
00:30:56.481 -->
00:31:02.207I think that's great advice and I wish it's advice I'd known when I was in my first year taking a physics class that I was struggling with a lot.
00:31:02.970 -->
00:31:05.097Well, it's more like pep talk than advice.
00:31:05.097 -->
00:31:06.412Good pep talk then.
00:31:06.913 -->
00:31:08.738But no, it's a bright kid.
00:31:08.738 -->
00:31:21.645I'd done well at school and here I was sort of floundering around in first year physics and I just kind of got a few things in my head about, you know, the importance of asking for help, maybe persevering a bit longer, being a bit more patient in that phase of being stuck.
00:31:21.645 -->
00:31:23.938I've had a very different experience of that, I think.
00:31:24.411 -->
00:31:24.992Yeah, a little bit.
00:31:24.992 -->
00:31:28.433That concerns me about this with some students and this is just unfortunate.
00:31:28.433 -->
00:31:36.057You'll have those struggles and decide you know, I just don't like this or I can't do this, and then that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because you put in less effort, do you think?
00:31:36.077 -->
00:31:36.578what's the point?
00:31:36.980 -->
00:31:39.983Absolutely, and I'm telling all my students that I've worked with.
00:31:39.983 -->
00:31:51.566It's like please don't say someone else is talented because that someone else just worked hard for it, and don't say you can't do something because you can Simply say you don't want to do something.
00:31:51.566 -->
00:31:55.433Make a decision, but when you decide you want something, you go after it.
00:31:55.433 -->
00:32:00.318Find the tools that are required to excel and persevere until you get there.
00:32:00.318 -->
00:32:07.826And it's going to be a struggle, because things that are worth working for often are a struggle, but using the right tools to get there are critical too.
00:32:08.450 -->
00:32:11.660And when it comes to physics, see chapter six of Study Like a Champ.
00:32:13.833 -->
00:32:15.998There you go and see your instructor too, right?
00:32:16.378 -->
00:32:16.960Yes.
00:32:16.960 -->
00:32:18.163So this is great.
00:32:18.163 -->
00:32:22.876We got a little bit of mindset sort of attitude, pep talk as well thrown in, which is wonderful.
00:32:22.876 -->
00:32:24.323I think that's great, great advice.
00:32:24.323 -->
00:32:28.457There are a few potentially quite quick fire little things I wanted to put to you, john.
00:32:28.457 -->
00:32:33.454So these are things that I hear students asking, I see students using.
00:32:33.454 -->
00:32:42.855Some of them might have a slight more of a kind of a UK bent than a US bent, so they may be a little bit less familiar, but you know, they're things that I hear people talking about all the time and they're not in your list of 10.
00:32:42.855 -->
00:32:50.853So I wanted to sort of put them to you and just get a kind of quick reaction on something we should be doing, something we need to be a bit careful of, where it kind of falls or jurors still out.
00:32:50.853 -->
00:32:52.095Yet that could be an option too.
00:32:52.095 -->
00:32:54.196So the first one on the list is watching videos.
00:32:54.196 -->
00:32:55.338Youtube's hugely popular.
00:32:55.338 -->
00:32:57.821Is it something we should be doing as part of our learning strategy?
00:32:58.162 -->
00:32:58.643Why not?
00:32:58.643 -->
00:32:59.403Why not?
00:32:59.403 -->
00:33:01.665Okay, the difficulty with that?
00:33:01.665 -->
00:33:08.875It's almost like reading Sure, you should read, but reading or watching a video doesn't mean learning the content of the video.
00:33:08.875 -->
00:33:16.019So if you're watching something just to initially get intrigued, engaged, excited, and then you're going to go off and do more, awesome Right.
00:33:16.340 -->
00:33:28.351But if it's that video has the content that a student needs to learn, then the concern is that they watch a video because it was engaging, feel like, well, I know that content and then never come back to it, right.
00:33:28.351 -->
00:33:33.490So if the content really is in that video, then really watching a video is just like watching a lecture.
00:33:33.490 -->
00:33:38.422You need to take appropriate notes, go back to those notes and study them Again.
00:33:38.422 -->
00:33:50.212The one caveat there when we interview lots of students, college students about how they interact with online videos, they tend to say they don't take notes and they don't go back to watch them again.
00:33:50.212 -->
00:34:00.280So, absolutely, let's use videos anything that can help you bolster your comprehension, your understanding, your excitement, but don't do that exclusively.
00:34:00.280 -->
00:34:04.578If that's what you need to learn, you still have to take notes and go back and really master the content.
00:34:04.990 -->
00:34:08.159Test yourself on those notes and make sure you can remember the key points, yeah, great.
00:34:08.570 -->
00:34:10.715So my last one was going to be dual coding.
00:34:10.715 -->
00:34:18.199And just to give a little bit of a context to this, I don't know if you've come across the the learning scientists project, the podcast and the blog, and certainly here in the uk that's.
00:34:18.199 -->
00:34:22.764That's been quite influential in schools and they present six evidence-based learning strategies.
00:34:22.764 -->
00:34:24.873That was sort of their original thing, the six strategies.
00:34:24.873 -->
00:34:31.065And to be fair to them, you know they'd be the first to say, well, it's not like there's sort of six strategies and like they're all born equal.
00:34:31.065 -->
00:34:36.998They'd probably say quite a similar thing to yourself in that, you know, if you're going to start somewhere, start with retrieval practice and spacing.
00:34:36.998 -->
00:34:42.730They're not six equally important, equally good study strategies.
00:34:42.730 -->
00:34:46.317There are two that form sort of the main backbone.
00:34:46.317 -->
00:34:50.184Those are space practice and retrieval practice.
00:34:50.184 -->
00:34:52.454Ah, I knew it.
00:34:52.454 -->
00:35:06.630That was Jude Weinstein-Jones there, one of the co-founders of the Learning Scientist Projects, in a clip from when she was on the podcast back in episode 45, if you're interested in catching up with the rest of that interview with her, forgive me sliding that little interjection in.
00:35:06.630 -->
00:35:09.900I just thought it added a really nice bit of relevant colour to what we were just saying there.
00:35:10.309 -->
00:35:11.936Okay, back to my question for John.
00:35:11.936 -->
00:35:19.070So there's quite a lot of overlap between their six and and your 10, particularly the better half of the 10.
00:35:19.070 -->
00:35:26.625But one thing I noticed kind of it isn't there and I've always been a little bit unsure myself on my own views on this one is is the idea of dual coding?
00:35:26.625 -->
00:35:36.065So for for listeners, you know, this is the idea that when you see a picture or graphical representation and see a description in words at the same time, that helps you learn.
00:35:36.065 -->
00:35:41.278That's the duality that dual coding is referring to words and some kind of pictorial graphical representation.
00:35:41.278 -->
00:35:44.755What's your view on where dual coding fits into the world?
00:35:45.556 -->
00:35:48.262well, dual quoting definitely can have a positive impact.
00:35:48.262 -->
00:35:53.411I mean, it's similar to anytime you have multiple representations of something you're trying to learn.
00:35:53.411 -->
00:36:01.199Now you have internally multiple representations that you can then use to reconstruct your understanding of something.
00:36:01.199 -->
00:36:09.003So if you have a pictorial representation, a verbal representation stored in memory, then you have two routes to success, so to speak.
00:36:09.003 -->
00:36:15.702So, that said, as you know, getting that dual coding is the difficult part, right?
00:36:15.702 -->
00:36:21.510So if you're someone, for instance, as we mentioned earlier, that doesn't generate internal images, that well, it's going to right.
00:36:21.510 -->
00:36:23.014There's only one code for you.
00:36:23.014 -->
00:36:24.760There's not a dual code, so to speak.
00:36:24.760 -->
00:36:28.920And sometimes it's not clear what kinds of mental representations to develop.
00:36:28.920 -->
00:36:33.681Right, that is exactly what I should be generating when I'm doing this.
00:36:34.510 -->
00:36:47.697Note also that textbooks that students interact with occasionally have that pictorial representation is not meant to help their understanding, but is meant to help them be interested in the topic.
00:36:47.697 -->
00:36:50.545It's called a seductive detail.
00:36:50.545 -->
00:36:52.992It's not really for the content.
00:36:52.992 -->
00:36:54.215Those can be distracting.
00:36:54.215 -->
00:37:04.255It gives you a sense of a dual coding, because I have a visual representation and I have some verbal, but in this case the verbal representation could actually undermine students' understanding.
00:37:04.255 -->
00:37:06.117So that dual coding, they kind of need.
00:37:06.117 -->
00:37:07.398None of these strategies are foolproof.
00:37:07.398 -->
00:37:21.958Not one strategy will always lead to success.
00:37:21.958 -->
00:37:31.954So it's kind of a combination of all of them that students will need to rely on as they're working themselves toward getting the grades they want in school and to learn the content they care.
00:37:31.954 -->
00:37:43.652And no, not getting straight A's the grades they want, because I really want students to be motivated to achieve their own goals that they develop right, that they're managing their time to obtain.
00:37:43.652 -->
00:37:47.121That's how we develop a really motivated and good student.
00:37:47.809 -->
00:37:51.000I love how, for so many of our questions, you answer the question and go on.
00:37:51.000 -->
00:37:53.679Then there's some other wonderful point to make, and it's all great.
00:37:54.369 -->
00:37:55.853Do you mean I just go on babbling?
00:37:55.853 -->
00:37:56.795William, I mean great.
00:37:56.856 -->
00:37:57.878No, no, no, not at all.
00:37:57.878 -->
00:38:00.123I get a two for one every question I ask.
00:38:00.123 -->
00:38:04.226There's another great piece of advice that I hadn't even asked for, which is wonderful.
00:38:04.226 -->
00:38:04.849I love it.
00:38:04.849 -->
00:38:06.753I love it, john, thank you so much.
00:38:06.753 -->
00:38:13.934You've been incredibly generous and I'm so grateful for you sharing a generous taste of your immense wisdom and expertise on this topic.
00:38:13.934 -->
00:38:15.838Tell us where do we go to find out more?
00:38:15.838 -->
00:38:20.764So, if we want to go and read the book or learn more about sort of your work, where would you point people to?
00:38:21.329 -->
00:38:23.036Well, first, thanks for having me on board today.
00:38:23.036 -->
00:38:25.070This has just been a blast, Quite frankly.
00:38:25.070 -->
00:38:32.135I think really this for students out there, either students in college, high school students, folks who are lifelong learners, I like to say it.
00:38:32.135 -->
00:38:37.543But I'd pick up the book that I co-authored with Regan Garung called Study Like a Champ.
00:38:37.543 -->
00:38:38.771It's really inexpensive.
00:38:38.771 -->
00:38:40.175It gets right to the point.
00:38:40.175 -->
00:38:41.418We talk right to students.
00:38:41.418 -->
00:38:44.295Each chapter is about to do one thing.
00:38:44.295 -->
00:38:49.733We don't hit you with a hundred different strategies, we just talk about a couple things that really work well.
00:38:49.733 -->
00:38:53.061So I'd pick that up, peruse it and, you know, go from there.
00:38:53.510 -->
00:38:55.574Great book and we'll drop the link to that in the show notes.
00:38:55.574 -->
00:38:57.938John, thank you so much once again for coming on.
00:38:57.938 -->
00:39:00.451This has been so much fun and wishing you all the best.
00:39:00.451 -->
00:39:01.514Glad I was here.
00:39:01.514 -->
00:39:04.300Well, thanks again, john.
00:39:04.300 -->
00:39:05.483We're really glad you were here too.
00:39:06.251 -->
00:39:12.594If you've enjoyed today's episode, please share it with your friends, colleagues or your own students, if you are an educator yourself.
00:39:12.594 -->
00:39:20.436Just before I sign off, here are a couple of ways you can get more from the world of Exam Study Expert to help you study smarter.
00:39:20.436 -->
00:39:30.134Firstly, if you yourself have got exams coming up, you can download my little cheat sheet with some of my favourite ideas for learning smarter the six pillars of exam success.
00:39:30.134 -->
00:39:34.963You'll find that at examstudyexpertcom forward slash pillars.
00:39:34.963 -->
00:39:39.554That's a great starting point or checklist of top ideas to help you get ready for the exam.
00:39:39.554 -->
00:39:42.771That's at examstudyexpertscom forward slash pillars.
00:39:44.275 -->
00:39:52.961Alternatively, if you are a teacher or educator listening today and want to help get your students studying smarter, there's a couple of things I can offer for you too.
00:39:52.961 -->
00:40:00.233Firstly, you can download a free lesson resource pack to teach your students all about retrieval practice and how to use it well.
00:40:00.233 -->
00:40:05.052That's at examstudyexpertscom forward slash retrieval hyphen lesson.
00:40:05.052 -->
00:40:24.561Secondly, if you'd like to measure the effectiveness of study strategy at your school, you can head to examstudyexpertscom forward slash, revision, hyphen, census and to learn more about how to take part in our research project that surveyed over 50,000 students on their study strategy.
00:40:24.561 -->
00:40:29.860You get some nice insights and recommendations, and it's even free to participate in For now.
00:40:29.860 -->
00:40:31.552Thank you so much for listening today.
00:40:31.552 -->
00:40:35.755It's been such a pleasure to have your company for such a great episode today too.
00:40:35.755 -->
00:40:39.514I just want to wish you every success, as always, in your exams.
00:40:41.516 -->
00:40:42.619Wasn't that wonderful.
00:40:42.619 -->
00:40:49.396If you're feeling inspired, why not leave us a rating and a review in your podcast app?
00:40:49.396 -->
00:40:51.581It would make our day.
00:40:51.581 -->
00:40:55.418Thanks again for listening and see you soon.
![[REWIND] Mastering Effective Study: Insights from John Dunlosky (Ep 154 replay)](https://cdn-images-3.listennotes.com/podcasts/exam-study-expert/rewind-mastering-effective-UD8Wr23Rpj1-p7xlBzy6Nhn.1400x1400.jpg "[REWIND] Mastering Effective Study: Insights from John Dunlosky (Ep 154 replay)")
