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This is Every Dimension, a podcast about using design to get more.
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More available, more premium, more responsible.
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I'm Thomas Herman, a founder of Path, and in each episode, I talk to people reshaping how brands grow through better products, better packaging and better thinking.
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Welcome to another episode of Every Dimension.
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Demand More from Design.
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This time we are joined by Simon Gore.
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Hello, Simon.
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Hello, Tom.
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Simon is my former agency colleague, a brand strategist, facilitator, and optimist.
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He spent nearly 40 years, both brand and agency side, in leading teams, inspiring creativity and shaping innovation.
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Simon's worked with everyone from Mars Inc.
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to the UK government and now helped drive design and innovation at Magnetic, which is part of the Newton Consulting Group.
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Does that sound like you, Simon?
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Nearly 40 years.
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Blimey.
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How old am I?
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You don't look old, so that's uh the listeners can't see, but you know, take my word for it.
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Take my word for it.
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Now it's usually pretty engaging talking to Simon, and with so much experience, he talks a lot of sense.
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So today, as a slight break from our usual conversations on demanding more from design, in this conversation, we'll explore something Simon is very good at.
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That's optimism.
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Not the naive kind, but the experienced kind, and how it's often intrinsic and essential to creative people and their process.
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You up for that, Simon?
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Totally.
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Delighted to be here talking to you.
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Good stuff.
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Well, I thought we'd start by kind of giving the listeners some sort of um reference to your experience.
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Um you've seen you know pretty much of our uh of our industry client side in the early days and and at independent and networked agencies.
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Uh what are the kind of biggest changes you've seen and perhaps what has remained unchanged?
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Yeah.
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Um, yeah, I've I've worked on on all sides, um, as a client several times, as a representative of agencies, as an independent consultant, um, and and I guess covering a lot of different disciplines.
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And I've been very lucky to to have the opportunity to learn um from some of the best.
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And and and particularly I'd pick out Mary Lewis, the sort of iconic creative director of Lewis Mobily.
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She's just brilliant.
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Um, I mean, slightly the devil wears Prada, but uh but brilliant all the same.
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Mary, please don't pick me up on that.
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But um, I mean, in recent years, you know, from an industry point of view, I I guess I've become increasingly frustrated by how much clients, um, as in brand owners and retailers, kind of seem to value design less and less.
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It has become very transactional.
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And I think our precious world-class and and sort of distinctly British industry is being sort of eroded by by actually poor clienting, but by as a result, then falling standards, but also over-eager procurement teams.
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Um, and I think there's, you know, from an industry point of view, design and innovation, and I'll kind of wrap those together, there's definitely less confidence about these days.
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And that's led to a sort of an unfortunate attrition of fees.
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Um, as things have become more kind of competitive, um, and you get the sense from clients that they're not going to spend anything unless they get some sort of guaranteed return on that investment.
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Um, and things just don't just don't work like this.
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This is a, you know, this is a creative process, it's a subjective process, it requires, well, I'll say it, optimism, but it also requires bravery as well.
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And I think sort of finally thing, my final observation is I think there are less characters in the business.
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Now, uh, you know, where are all those colourful owner founders that used to drive me absolutely mad?
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I mean, I was always the tended to be the one behind the throne trying to kind of oil the wheels and sort out, and these guys, you know, these people were brilliant, but but they were also um they were also, you know, tricky and challenging and all the rest of it.
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So I think things have got a bit too serious these days.
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And and I'm what I try to do is is inject a bit of levity um and and try and lighten the loads, the considerable loads that people seem to be carrying.
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Yeah, yeah, great.
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And I think that's um, yeah, it's interesting that you note that kind of change over time.
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And I and I guess it's you know, we have to be careful not to lament the old days.
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Um, but there is something about the creative process that needs a certain amount of time, doesn't it?
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It can't be it can't be linear and forced and scheduled.
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You know, there's just something about uh exploring a problem and then taking taking a break from it and allowing the creative process to work.
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And you have to kind of build that in.
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And I think that's probably, yeah, like you say, that's probably one of the biggest changes, isn't it?
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Is the kind of the timing.
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Not that everyone had loads of time years ago, everything you know had a deadline and a cost, but you know, I think that somehow that that kind of um everything's measured nowadays, so you know, measuring measuring the time you're not working is is is tricky, and that is probably required, isn't it?
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So um good stuff.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's it's an inherently messy process.
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Yeah, and I think when people try and box it and measure it and um put it into kind of stage by stage, and very you know, we'll need this then and by that by then, and it it's just it breaks out of that, and then it and that's why it's fantastic to work in it, and it and it's a it's a beautiful thing.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Kind of wonderfully random.
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Yeah.
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Um, maybe anecdotally, do you think there's a a kind of moment when you look back that kind of particularly shaped your approach to to design and innovation, or is it all been a bit?
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I think I think I think I've always kind of lived and breathed design.
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Yeah.
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Um, my father was a graphic designer um and a copywriter, and I kind of grew up in Scotland, sort of surrounded by his rotorings, his lectra set, and his cowgum in a studio that would have given kind of Leonardo da Vinci a run for his money.
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My dad was also a very good carpenter and tinkerer.
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So he was endlessly making things and turning slightly crackpot ideas into prototypes, and that definitely got me sort of into innovation and into kind of experimentation, I suppose, quite early on.
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Yeah, yeah, cool, inspired.
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Brilliant.
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Um, cool.
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So as I said in the intro, you're a kind of self-professed optimist.
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Um has optimism always been part of your outlook or has it kind of deepened with experience?
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I would always kind of consider myself to be a glass half-full sort of person.
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Um annoyingly upbeat, if you asked my wife Sarah, especially in the morning.
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Uh, she's just like shaking her head at me kind of the whole time.
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I mean, I strongly believe a bit of positivity, a bit of proactive provocation can help kind of freshen everyone's thinking.
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I I I like to ease people out of their usual comfort zones in a good way.
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And, you know, kind of with a bit of optimism, with a bit of no, it's going to be all right, is to kind of encourage people to go further with new ideas and innovation.
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And in tough times, in my experience, that that bit of optimism can act as sort of much-needed light at the end of the tunnel for people to help people to aspire to do better, to be better, to push things.
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Yeah, great.
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Great.
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And and to uh to frame that, I mean, you've even, as part of the Magnetic team, written the book on optimism and another book called The Chaos Advantage.
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Can you tell us a little bit about those and what the kind of key takeouts might be from each book?
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Yeah, every every year Magnetic writes a book, um, and it's a real labor of love, um, and gets everybody involved, including our our clients and and partners and and kind of stakeholders.
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The 2024 book was titled Optimism, and it was all about how kind of positive disruptors are changing kind of business forever.
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So it was definitely this this this by inserting positivity, you can you can go further.
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There's good sort of inspiration and uh there.
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I mean, change means risk, um, but we always say it doesn't have to be big, scary, and expensive.
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And and you can kind of we can help you handle change by sort of taking smart risks, you know, with optimism, um, but also prepare yourself for that with sort of capabilities as well.
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But I think the optimism is an essential kind of spark, and I think it's hugely important uh for leadership as well.
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I think you get much further with kind of upbeat, kind of positivity with emotional intelligence, really understanding where people are and where people where you want to get to get to rather than people who take the other view and start shouting at people.
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Yeah.
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Um, I mean that so the 2025 book was called the the The Chaos Advantage.
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Um, and I like the chaos concept.
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Um, but when our editor, uh Jackie, first sent me the new book title, I wrongly read it as the Chagos advantage, and I sort of can't unsee that now.
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So that's yeah, but but really we live in a chaotic world, uh, and that shouldn't be a problem.
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It's actually about opportunity if you look for it, because there's lots that happening, there's lots of dynamism, there's lots of pressures coming this way and that.
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And I think growth comes from sort of innovating in amongst that, seeing the opportunities, and it's not often big leaps, it can be just this continuous improvement to sort of navigate um off what's going on.
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Um, and it does require a little bit of acting boldly, sort of measuring impact as well, and not just effort along the way.
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So that was the sort of thinking behind this year's book, the the chaos advantage.
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Yeah.
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And and thinking back to 2024, uh, you know, and you decided to write a book on optimism or the team did, you know, what made you feel that was necessary?
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Do you think did you think the time was particularly pessimistic, or is it just that that kind of approach is important in your work generally?
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I th I think a combination, but I think certainly the last few years, I think, by any measure have been have been challenging.
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And when you've worked as long as me, you kind of you you've kind of ridden the ups and downs to a certain extent.
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But I sort of I think we were realizing that life was used to be a bit easier, certainly to make a living.
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And I and I think we felt that that was a an essential ingredient for any um kind of sort of work in design, in innovation, a positive outlook, a you know, a positive mindset.
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And I think we set out to say, look, we need we need to we need to write about this.
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And I and I think what was what was nice is when we went out to talk to people, particularly our clients and things, they responded to that very well.
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And and they had examples of how you know that really made made a difference to things, and make them feel get them on the front foot and get them positive about things.
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Okay, and and then can you almost sort of bring the two together?
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Is is the kind of the chaos is kind of something that's happening around us, and is optimism the kind of antidote to that chaos?
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Is that is that the right way to see it?
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Yeah, no, I think so.
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I think so.
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And I think the two the two are related.
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I mean, we couldn't have done if we'd written Optimism 2, the sequel, uh it it might not have had a uh the better effect.
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Even though Godfather 2 is is recognized as the as the as the better movie, we felt that we needed to kind of move the narrative on a bit.
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Um and actually, to be fair, the the the chaos was was deepening.
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Uh and I think, you know, I think we're in a bit of a hole at the moment, and you know, the whole government piece is they're in a bit of a hole, and it's it's not easy.
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It's not easy.
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So I think I think we have to collectively think positively think optimistically about the future.
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Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
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I think I think we've we we're talking about previous episodes, and some of the guests I I had on were were talking, are involved in you know government conversations, and I think a lot of that kind of um a lot of the kind of concerns is around the vision for these kind of any organization.
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You know, what's the kind of vision and what what are we going for, what we're trying to achieve?
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And uh I think if you have a potentially have an optimistic goal that everyone's excited about, then you can kind of take the kind of roadmap back from that, the the small steps that don't feel quite so exciting.
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But if you're all aligned towards a an optimistic end game, then you can um see it.
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I think that was that was the um uh we talked about our conversation with with Minnie Mole, that was the come one of the themes of that conversation was how creative people can visualize the future, we can we can we we can bring those things to life.
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It's all very well reading a a document or a manifesto, but if someone shows you a picture or a film or a play or you know some sort of experience that kind of uh uh um brings that kind of idea to to life, people can really understand it and get behind it.
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So yeah, that's that's part of it.
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Um which maybe we'll come to uh uh come back to in our conversation in a bit.
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Um but am I writing thinking that the the work you guys do at um magnetic and obviously you know all through your career, you know, is is design and innovation.
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Um and so those books are kind of part of powering that process.
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Um but you know design we agree, you know, design and innovation are both kind of kind of fat words, they're kind of a bit overused and a bit kind of woolly, um, often open to interpretation.
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Yeah, do you have a kind of definition of either of those and and how they how we should use them?
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Um well I knew I obviously knew this question was coming up, so I thought I'd better just I'd better just have a look around and see for a more technical definition.
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So kind of technical definition.
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Uh design is the process for creating a plan or a convention for the construction of an object system or experience to to achieve a um a specific purpose.
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And I think it involves the whole design process involves conceiving, planning, creating um a solution by considering aesthetic, functional, and experiential factors within a given context, constraints, and goals.
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So that's very snappy.
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There you go.
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Um, I mean, I think for many people, the word design conjures up thoughts of creativity, products, architecture, graphics, the aesthetics of something.
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And those are that is very, very valid.
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Um, but I think you know, we we could kind of class those as traditional forms of design.
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And the exciting thing about the practice of design is it actually extends kind of well beyond that, and it it now encounters kind of a way of thinking, broader techniques, uh, and that spills over into you know, into innovation, and and we call it you know, strategic design, design thinking.
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I think there was a chap called Richard Buchanan who kind of talked about the four orders of design, which is quite handy.
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And the first one is the sort of symbols, logos, signs, then there's the sort of products, tools, you know, furniture.
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Furniture's always been something that's defined the design of the age.
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Then it's into interactions, which is about services and experiences uh for people, and then beyond that, it moves into much more systemic design, ecosystems, and that's where actually design needs can play a role in some of the most important stuff kind of in the world.
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It can be very, very simple at one end and very singular, but at the other end, it it can be multidimensional and really kind of exciting when you're starting to design systems that that fit into other systems and interact and things like that.
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And I think that's that's the kind of the the sort of future uh for the for the design industry, really, really important to really talk it up because it is not people kind of hiding in holes, you know, with coloured pens.
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It it is a much bigger thing than that.
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And and designers as part of that really have have a lot to contribute.
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Yeah, okay.
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And then and uh if we talk about design and innovation, is uh do you differentiate between the two?
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And I mean I guess I guess where I'm going with this is is often uh when people commissioning creative services might ask for X and they might mean Y.
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So, you know, if people are asking for design and asking for innovation, do they need to be more explicit or do they need to understand what what they are and is there a real difference, or are we kind of creating a problem for ourselves?
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No, I mean I Tom, you and I have been in this game quite a while.
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Um, I think when a when a client asks for something, you get a brief and all the rest of it.
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I mean, I think you know, designers very naturally challenge that brief and always over-deliver because that's partly through excitement, but it's also partly because we think that's the right thing to do.
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So I think design and innovation are very much linked.
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Um, you're always looking to improve, you're always looking to optimize, you're always looking to go further.
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And and for us at Magnetic, we have a combination of kind of innovators and designers.
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We've got a decent of very talented design team.
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And for us, innovation is the sort of art and science of solving problems creatively, but it is about bringing new ideas to life.
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And I think one of the things you said, when you bring something to life to make it come alive, really to get people to understand it and to get on board, visualizing it, prototyping it, making it real.
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Um, that's where our you know design is so important.
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That's where designers really can do that well.
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Um, to sort of bring to life thoughts and ideas that are going to make make things better, you know, for business, for people, uh, for the pl for the planet.
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And I and I suppose, yeah, innovation for us is about developing, testing, and scaling very importantly, new idea, new ways of doing things.
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Um it's sort of how you build kind of lasting growth and stay resilient with it through, again, through the kind of constant change and and and disruption.
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Yeah, yeah, great.
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I mean, one of the reasons I like these kind of podcast conversations is you get to kind of uh think about this concept a bit more and I hear kind of other people's versions of it, and it allows me to kind of think and and kind of um try and articulate um a version of it.
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Um and just just just now perhaps on something that's you may be useful to me is understanding that in the corporate world, you know, innovation is perhaps something that people are asking for or requiring for, you know, in terms of uh an output, you know, we need to improve our product, we need to innovate, we need to push things forward.
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Whereas design is not really an outcome, they're like we we need some design.
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Um, you know, design is is is the kind of process that that is applied to create the innovation, perhaps.
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And I think uh again during these podcast conversations, I've spoken to people that that quite explicitly think about design as the process of making something desirable.
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You know, oh we've got this, now I need to buy some design, you know, to make it beautiful, which is you know very much part of the process.
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I think creative people, some of the people I work with are and have worked with are just naturally able they're tastemakers, they're able to understand what is amazing and what will look fantastic and and what won't.
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And I think you know, that is a gift and and a talent which you you often need to buy.
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You need you need to go and find something, you know, can just make this look and feel amazing.
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And then uh I thought through the problem or through thought through the origin of the word design perhaps comes from you know, a Latin origin about designation, about making choices, you know, and you think about the other bigger side of design is about you know, it's actually being choiceful, isn't it?
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So there's the there's the there's creating desirability, you know, is one part of design, but actually being choiceful about you know what to do next and showing the showing the design buyer, you know, if you if you want this outcome, you know, make these choices, or if you make these choices, then you'll get that outcome, I guess.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:18.480
You've sort of written and posted beautifully about uh you know creatives and calling them sort of wonderfully uncom uncompromising and empathetic or curious problem solvers.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:38.240
Um I think these, you know, can you talk a little bit more about that and kind of those traits that you see in your creative teams, you know, particularly in the light of you know AI and kind of new technology, that you know, how do we kind of maintain or or um continue to understand the value of humans in the creative process?
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:55.599
Yeah, look, I I as I say, I've I I I do love working with designers, and and when I move too far away from working with a studio, working with a team, I've always kind of gone, oh no, this is not quite right, and turned back to to seek out designers and creatives.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759
That they they're un wonderfully uncompromising on quality, bordering on perfection.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.240
Which can drive drives me mad.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:11.680
If you're trying to deliver some work kind of on time, on budget, you know, have to kind of beat them off with a stick and say, no, no, it's good, it's good enough.
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.279
And they go, Oh, no, no, just let me, no, no, no, it's fine.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:25.039
Um, but you know, thankfully, it, you know, their their their quality kind of standards are so far above clients' expectations, which is great.
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:40.240
They they are unique problem solvers because I think they kind of approach challenges from many different angles, and their sort of innate kind of empathy and curiosity that drives their sort of human, that their heightened kind of human-centricity.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:44.079
And I think they're brilliant at putting themselves in the shoes of the target audience.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.400
They kind of really want to know, well, who's this for?
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.000
You know, where's this going to go next?
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:49.519
How is this going to be used?
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:58.079
So they really get into the shoes of it, and therefore they sort of deliver the kind of experiences, they live their experiences, I suppose.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.319
Um, and I think refreshingly, they always challenge the conventional.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:08.559
Again, that requires, you know, if you're managing it, requires patience and where are you going with this?
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.079
But it's they're generating, you know, progressive ideas.
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:16.240
Um, but there's always importantly a bias for action, and they will listen.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.599
The best ones, you know, they go, right.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:19.279
So when do we when what's next here?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.559
Who are we talking to next?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:21.920
When are we presenting this?
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:23.359
When are we sharing this?
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.920
So they're already working out how they're going to get there.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:41.279
And they love getting things done and they love getting things out in the real world, which what makes them great innovators, actually, because they they love to say, well, we just need to get some, bring it to life and get it out there and get it in front of people, and let's see how it works.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:54.720
And of course, that's there's no substitute to that to actually start prototyping and to get they want reaction, they want engagement, and then they want feedback and reaction so that they can iterate further on it.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.599
Yeah, yeah, brilliant.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.960
I love that phrase bias for action.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:57.359
That's good.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:58.480
Well, I'm gonna keep that.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.359
Um I knew this time would fly.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.559
Um I'm gonna have to try and draw our conversation to a close.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:18.720
So so maybe um we can have a go at kind of a vision of the future or kind of a a kind of future view if um optimism is the belief that futures uh better futures can be designed.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:24.720
What does that look like in practice for brands, teams, or even society, perhaps?
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:31.359
Yeah, look, I I think you know, feeling optimistic right now can be quite hard.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:47.039
Um the economy, politics, climate, wars, everything that's going on, kind of the realities of life in in 2025, it's a bit all-consuming and and kind of almost feels little headspace for for kind of change and progress.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.759
So optimism kind of takes effort.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:25:11.839
Um, but that's a that's exactly why I think it's a sort of a business leader's kind of superpower to really have a sort of intentional and strategic act to be to be positive uh and to really think through how we're gonna adapt, how we're gonna kind of meet customers where they're at, and how we're gonna kind of move forward.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:19.200
So it's not naive or blind optimism, it's it's using optimism as a as a as a tool kind of for change.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:31.519
And I think that sort of positive disruption, risk taking, it doesn't necessarily need to mean dramatic pivots and kind of high costs and kind of earth-changing interventions.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:49.440
I think it can be small spent small-scale experimentation, incremental changes, but just looking always to move forward and also to kind of for a leader to develop a culture that you know people feel empowered and equipped to challenge, challenge the status quo.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:52.000
But it does often mean kind of taking a risk.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:26:15.759
And I think some of the things that we've been that kind of on our mind at the moment, um, you know, that are ripe for this sort of optimistic thinking and disruptive design, you know, anything in the area of mental health services, sustainability, although sustainability is permanently kind of moving within the kind of dominant narrative, depending on what's going on, and also kind of our aging population is another big challenge.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:28.079
And I suppose, you know, just coming back to your your question about AI, which I just completely ignored, um why am I kind of positive kind of about the future?
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:36.799
I I I think it I think that my optimism for the future, particularly with the next generation, I think it comes from technology being an accelerator.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:47.680
So I think if you combine kind of youth, youthfulness, uh, eagerness, enthusiasm, energy with tech, I think that's a source of immense power.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.160
It's an incredibly incredible enabler.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:59.039
Um, and I think the the sort of democratization of tools, more people can get their hands on things to to to try things out is is really important.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:07.680
So that sort of technical agility, multidisciplined, kind of experimental mindset, um, I think is is really important.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:08.799
Thanks, Simon.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.200
Perhaps to draw things to a close.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:18.799
I know we've talked in the past about your sort of principles um to design with optimism.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.240
Have you kind of got those to hand?
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:22.079
Could you kind of talk us through those, please?
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:22.799
Sure.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.160
Um yeah, kind of five of them.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:40.799
I I I mean, bravery, um, and that's you know, believing that we can kind of create a better future um by creating something that makes life you know happier, healthier, easier for someone in some way.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:46.160
So I think, you know, believe in in brave, I think hugely important.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:50.880
I think impact is a very important part of this process.
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:53.359
It's a sort of progressive approach to challenges.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.599
So you're looking to find possibilities and solutions with the most impact.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:12.319
And impact is a currency now that you can really get stakeholders on board to support because they can see that what you're doing is contributing, is going to pay back, is it's gonna do things.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:13.599
I think that's huge important.
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:34.079
Generosity, certainly, in terms of customer obsession, um, and and and designing it very much with yeah, the person that's gonna be affected in mind to make things better for for a particular audience, quite often also for you know vulnerable audiences who've perhaps kind of fallen behind.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:35.680
I think proactiveness.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:54.559
So I think I you know, I like to think, you know, really actively um seeking solutions to a difficulty or frustration, so going after things that are um that are slowing things down, that are irritating, that are, that are, that are, you know, getting people suffering.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:58.559
Um that that kind of proactivist, go looking for that, really important.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:09.359
And I think finally, you know, the simplicity, you know, less is more ruthlessly simple design, real clarity in the in the proposition.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:18.480
Um and I think all of that can can can kind of make the customer in whatever form that is, you know, feel optimistic too.
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:28.799
And that that certain challenges, when you can see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel, you can see that challenges aren't insurmountable and you can you can move forward together and in partnership.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:29.759
Brilliant.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:30.400
I love that.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.079
I love a five-point plan.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:32.559
Thank you.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:33.440
That's great.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:35.839
Um well, brilliant, Simon.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:39.519
Um, our time has um come to an end, I'm afraid.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:55.759
So maybe in conclusion, it the kind of lesson here is that you know, optimism isn't just a personality trait, it's it's kind of a practice, and it's um it's what happens when experienced people like you, perhaps me, uh use creativity to turn uncertainty into opportunity.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:58.960
So Simon Gore, thank you very much.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:00.559
Thanks very much, Tom.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.160
I've I've loved it.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.799
That was Every Dimension from Path.
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:20.720
If you're interested in how design can get you more, that's more available, more premium, and more responsible, head to wearepath.com forward slash everydimension.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:29.279
You'll find more episodes, ideas, and ways we help brands grow through better products, better packaging, and better thinking.
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:35.839
Follow us on LinkedIn using hashtag everydimension or on Instagram at WeArepath.
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:41.279
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:42.480
It really helps.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.240
Thanks for listening.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:11.839
This is Every Dimension, a podcast about using design to get more.
00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:15.919
More available, more premium, more responsible.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:27.440
I'm Thomas Herman, a founder of Path, and in each episode, I talk to people reshaping how brands grow through better products, better packaging and better thinking.
00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:40.719
Welcome to another episode of Every Dimension.
00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:42.560
Demand More from Design.
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This time we are joined by Simon Gore.
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Hello, Simon.
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Hello, Tom.
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Simon is my former agency colleague, a brand strategist, facilitator, and optimist.
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He spent nearly 40 years, both brand and agency side, in leading teams, inspiring creativity and shaping innovation.
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Simon's worked with everyone from Mars Inc.
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to the UK government and now helped drive design and innovation at Magnetic, which is part of the Newton Consulting Group.
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Does that sound like you, Simon?
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Nearly 40 years.
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Blimey.
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How old am I?
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You don't look old, so that's uh the listeners can't see, but you know, take my word for it.
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Take my word for it.
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Now it's usually pretty engaging talking to Simon, and with so much experience, he talks a lot of sense.
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So today, as a slight break from our usual conversations on demanding more from design, in this conversation, we'll explore something Simon is very good at.
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That's optimism.
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Not the naive kind, but the experienced kind, and how it's often intrinsic and essential to creative people and their process.
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You up for that, Simon?
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Totally.
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Delighted to be here talking to you.
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Good stuff.
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Well, I thought we'd start by kind of giving the listeners some sort of um reference to your experience.
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Um you've seen you know pretty much of our uh of our industry client side in the early days and and at independent and networked agencies.
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Uh what are the kind of biggest changes you've seen and perhaps what has remained unchanged?
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Yeah.
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Um, yeah, I've I've worked on on all sides, um, as a client several times, as a representative of agencies, as an independent consultant, um, and and I guess covering a lot of different disciplines.
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And I've been very lucky to to have the opportunity to learn um from some of the best.
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And and and particularly I'd pick out Mary Lewis, the sort of iconic creative director of Lewis Mobily.
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She's just brilliant.
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Um, I mean, slightly the devil wears Prada, but uh but brilliant all the same.
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Mary, please don't pick me up on that.
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But um, I mean, in recent years, you know, from an industry point of view, I I guess I've become increasingly frustrated by how much clients, um, as in brand owners and retailers, kind of seem to value design less and less.
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It has become very transactional.
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And I think our precious world-class and and sort of distinctly British industry is being sort of eroded by by actually poor clienting, but by as a result, then falling standards, but also over-eager procurement teams.
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Um, and I think there's, you know, from an industry point of view, design and innovation, and I'll kind of wrap those together, there's definitely less confidence about these days.
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And that's led to a sort of an unfortunate attrition of fees.
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Um, as things have become more kind of competitive, um, and you get the sense from clients that they're not going to spend anything unless they get some sort of guaranteed return on that investment.
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Um, and things just don't just don't work like this.
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This is a, you know, this is a creative process, it's a subjective process, it requires, well, I'll say it, optimism, but it also requires bravery as well.
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And I think sort of finally thing, my final observation is I think there are less characters in the business.
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Now, uh, you know, where are all those colourful owner founders that used to drive me absolutely mad?
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I mean, I was always the tended to be the one behind the throne trying to kind of oil the wheels and sort out, and these guys, you know, these people were brilliant, but but they were also um they were also, you know, tricky and challenging and all the rest of it.
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So I think things have got a bit too serious these days.
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And and I'm what I try to do is is inject a bit of levity um and and try and lighten the loads, the considerable loads that people seem to be carrying.
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Yeah, yeah, great.
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And I think that's um, yeah, it's interesting that you note that kind of change over time.
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And I and I guess it's you know, we have to be careful not to lament the old days.
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Um, but there is something about the creative process that needs a certain amount of time, doesn't it?
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It can't be it can't be linear and forced and scheduled.
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You know, there's just something about uh exploring a problem and then taking taking a break from it and allowing the creative process to work.
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And you have to kind of build that in.
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And I think that's probably, yeah, like you say, that's probably one of the biggest changes, isn't it?
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Is the kind of the timing.
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Not that everyone had loads of time years ago, everything you know had a deadline and a cost, but you know, I think that somehow that that kind of um everything's measured nowadays, so you know, measuring measuring the time you're not working is is is tricky, and that is probably required, isn't it?
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So um good stuff.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's it's an inherently messy process.
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Yeah, and I think when people try and box it and measure it and um put it into kind of stage by stage, and very you know, we'll need this then and by that by then, and it it's just it breaks out of that, and then it and that's why it's fantastic to work in it, and it and it's a it's a beautiful thing.
00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:02.879
Yeah, yeah.
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Kind of wonderfully random.
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Yeah.
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Um, maybe anecdotally, do you think there's a a kind of moment when you look back that kind of particularly shaped your approach to to design and innovation, or is it all been a bit?
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I think I think I think I've always kind of lived and breathed design.
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Yeah.
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Um, my father was a graphic designer um and a copywriter, and I kind of grew up in Scotland, sort of surrounded by his rotorings, his lectra set, and his cowgum in a studio that would have given kind of Leonardo da Vinci a run for his money.
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My dad was also a very good carpenter and tinkerer.
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So he was endlessly making things and turning slightly crackpot ideas into prototypes, and that definitely got me sort of into innovation and into kind of experimentation, I suppose, quite early on.
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Yeah, yeah, cool, inspired.
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Brilliant.
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Um, cool.
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So as I said in the intro, you're a kind of self-professed optimist.
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Um has optimism always been part of your outlook or has it kind of deepened with experience?
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I would always kind of consider myself to be a glass half-full sort of person.
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Um annoyingly upbeat, if you asked my wife Sarah, especially in the morning.
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Uh, she's just like shaking her head at me kind of the whole time.
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I mean, I strongly believe a bit of positivity, a bit of proactive provocation can help kind of freshen everyone's thinking.
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I I I like to ease people out of their usual comfort zones in a good way.
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And, you know, kind of with a bit of optimism, with a bit of no, it's going to be all right, is to kind of encourage people to go further with new ideas and innovation.
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And in tough times, in my experience, that that bit of optimism can act as sort of much-needed light at the end of the tunnel for people to help people to aspire to do better, to be better, to push things.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:04.879
Yeah, great.
00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:05.519
Great.
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:14.959
And and to uh to frame that, I mean, you've even, as part of the Magnetic team, written the book on optimism and another book called The Chaos Advantage.
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Can you tell us a little bit about those and what the kind of key takeouts might be from each book?
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Yeah, every every year Magnetic writes a book, um, and it's a real labor of love, um, and gets everybody involved, including our our clients and and partners and and kind of stakeholders.
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The 2024 book was titled Optimism, and it was all about how kind of positive disruptors are changing kind of business forever.
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So it was definitely this this this by inserting positivity, you can you can go further.
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There's good sort of inspiration and uh there.
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I mean, change means risk, um, but we always say it doesn't have to be big, scary, and expensive.
00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:12.240
And and you can kind of we can help you handle change by sort of taking smart risks, you know, with optimism, um, but also prepare yourself for that with sort of capabilities as well.
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:20.000
But I think the optimism is an essential kind of spark, and I think it's hugely important uh for leadership as well.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:34.879
I think you get much further with kind of upbeat, kind of positivity with emotional intelligence, really understanding where people are and where people where you want to get to get to rather than people who take the other view and start shouting at people.
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:35.279
Yeah.
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Um, I mean that so the 2025 book was called the the The Chaos Advantage.
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Um, and I like the chaos concept.
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Um, but when our editor, uh Jackie, first sent me the new book title, I wrongly read it as the Chagos advantage, and I sort of can't unsee that now.
00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:04.080
So that's yeah, but but really we live in a chaotic world, uh, and that shouldn't be a problem.
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:13.679
It's actually about opportunity if you look for it, because there's lots that happening, there's lots of dynamism, there's lots of pressures coming this way and that.
00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:27.120
And I think growth comes from sort of innovating in amongst that, seeing the opportunities, and it's not often big leaps, it can be just this continuous improvement to sort of navigate um off what's going on.
00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:34.399
Um, and it does require a little bit of acting boldly, sort of measuring impact as well, and not just effort along the way.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.240
So that was the sort of thinking behind this year's book, the the chaos advantage.
00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:38.639
Yeah.
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:49.600
And and thinking back to 2024, uh, you know, and you decided to write a book on optimism or the team did, you know, what made you feel that was necessary?
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Do you think did you think the time was particularly pessimistic, or is it just that that kind of approach is important in your work generally?
00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:06.320
I th I think a combination, but I think certainly the last few years, I think, by any measure have been have been challenging.
00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:12.960
And when you've worked as long as me, you kind of you you've kind of ridden the ups and downs to a certain extent.
00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:18.639
But I sort of I think we were realizing that life was used to be a bit easier, certainly to make a living.
00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:30.799
And I and I think we felt that that was a an essential ingredient for any um kind of sort of work in design, in innovation, a positive outlook, a you know, a positive mindset.
00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.720
And I think we set out to say, look, we need we need to we need to write about this.
00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:41.440
And I and I think what was what was nice is when we went out to talk to people, particularly our clients and things, they responded to that very well.
00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:51.039
And and they had examples of how you know that really made made a difference to things, and make them feel get them on the front foot and get them positive about things.
00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:54.399
Okay, and and then can you almost sort of bring the two together?
00:11:54.559 --> 00:12:02.000
Is is the kind of the chaos is kind of something that's happening around us, and is optimism the kind of antidote to that chaos?
00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:03.519
Is that is that the right way to see it?
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:05.200
Yeah, no, I think so.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:05.840
I think so.
00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:07.759
And I think the two the two are related.
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:16.320
I mean, we couldn't have done if we'd written Optimism 2, the sequel, uh it it might not have had a uh the better effect.
00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:24.480
Even though Godfather 2 is is recognized as the as the as the better movie, we felt that we needed to kind of move the narrative on a bit.
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:29.840
Um and actually, to be fair, the the the chaos was was deepening.
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:38.639
Uh and I think, you know, I think we're in a bit of a hole at the moment, and you know, the whole government piece is they're in a bit of a hole, and it's it's not easy.
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:39.440
It's not easy.
00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:45.440
So I think I think we have to collectively think positively think optimistically about the future.
00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:46.720
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:12:46.960 --> 00:13:02.480
I think I think we've we we're talking about previous episodes, and some of the guests I I had on were were talking, are involved in you know government conversations, and I think a lot of that kind of um a lot of the kind of concerns is around the vision for these kind of any organization.
00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:05.919
You know, what's the kind of vision and what what are we going for, what we're trying to achieve?
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:18.480
And uh I think if you have a potentially have an optimistic goal that everyone's excited about, then you can kind of take the kind of roadmap back from that, the the small steps that don't feel quite so exciting.
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:24.000
But if you're all aligned towards a an optimistic end game, then you can um see it.
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:37.039
I think that was that was the um uh we talked about our conversation with with Minnie Mole, that was the come one of the themes of that conversation was how creative people can visualize the future, we can we can we we can bring those things to life.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:50.000
It's all very well reading a a document or a manifesto, but if someone shows you a picture or a film or a play or you know some sort of experience that kind of uh uh um brings that kind of idea to to life, people can really understand it and get behind it.
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:51.519
So yeah, that's that's part of it.
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.799
Um which maybe we'll come to uh uh come back to in our conversation in a bit.
00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:06.240
Um but am I writing thinking that the the work you guys do at um magnetic and obviously you know all through your career, you know, is is design and innovation.
00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:10.080
Um and so those books are kind of part of powering that process.
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:23.360
Um but you know design we agree, you know, design and innovation are both kind of kind of fat words, they're kind of a bit overused and a bit kind of woolly, um, often open to interpretation.
00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:29.039
Yeah, do you have a kind of definition of either of those and and how they how we should use them?
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:39.919
Um well I knew I obviously knew this question was coming up, so I thought I'd better just I'd better just have a look around and see for a more technical definition.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:42.159
So kind of technical definition.
00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:53.919
Uh design is the process for creating a plan or a convention for the construction of an object system or experience to to achieve a um a specific purpose.
00:14:54.080 --> 00:15:07.279
And I think it involves the whole design process involves conceiving, planning, creating um a solution by considering aesthetic, functional, and experiential factors within a given context, constraints, and goals.
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:08.559
So that's very snappy.
00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:09.360
There you go.
00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:18.960
Um, I mean, I think for many people, the word design conjures up thoughts of creativity, products, architecture, graphics, the aesthetics of something.
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.679
And those are that is very, very valid.
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:27.200
Um, but I think you know, we we could kind of class those as traditional forms of design.
00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:45.279
And the exciting thing about the practice of design is it actually extends kind of well beyond that, and it it now encounters kind of a way of thinking, broader techniques, uh, and that spills over into you know, into innovation, and and we call it you know, strategic design, design thinking.
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:50.960
I think there was a chap called Richard Buchanan who kind of talked about the four orders of design, which is quite handy.
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:59.279
And the first one is the sort of symbols, logos, signs, then there's the sort of products, tools, you know, furniture.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.799
Furniture's always been something that's defined the design of the age.
00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:23.039
Then it's into interactions, which is about services and experiences uh for people, and then beyond that, it moves into much more systemic design, ecosystems, and that's where actually design needs can play a role in some of the most important stuff kind of in the world.
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:38.639
It can be very, very simple at one end and very singular, but at the other end, it it can be multidimensional and really kind of exciting when you're starting to design systems that that fit into other systems and interact and things like that.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:53.360
And I think that's that's the kind of the the sort of future uh for the for the design industry, really, really important to really talk it up because it is not people kind of hiding in holes, you know, with coloured pens.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:55.279
It it is a much bigger thing than that.
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:59.519
And and designers as part of that really have have a lot to contribute.
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:00.559
Yeah, okay.
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:06.640
And then and uh if we talk about design and innovation, is uh do you differentiate between the two?
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:18.319
And I mean I guess I guess where I'm going with this is is often uh when people commissioning creative services might ask for X and they might mean Y.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:29.440
So, you know, if people are asking for design and asking for innovation, do they need to be more explicit or do they need to understand what what they are and is there a real difference, or are we kind of creating a problem for ourselves?
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.440
No, I mean I Tom, you and I have been in this game quite a while.
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:38.240
Um, I think when a when a client asks for something, you get a brief and all the rest of it.
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:52.240
I mean, I think you know, designers very naturally challenge that brief and always over-deliver because that's partly through excitement, but it's also partly because we think that's the right thing to do.
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.920
So I think design and innovation are very much linked.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:02.960
Um, you're always looking to improve, you're always looking to optimize, you're always looking to go further.
00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:08.240
And and for us at Magnetic, we have a combination of kind of innovators and designers.
00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.279
We've got a decent of very talented design team.
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:18.400
And for us, innovation is the sort of art and science of solving problems creatively, but it is about bringing new ideas to life.
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:31.599
And I think one of the things you said, when you bring something to life to make it come alive, really to get people to understand it and to get on board, visualizing it, prototyping it, making it real.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.640
Um, that's where our you know design is so important.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.119
That's where designers really can do that well.
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:47.119
Um, to sort of bring to life thoughts and ideas that are going to make make things better, you know, for business, for people, uh, for the pl for the planet.
00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:56.000
And I and I suppose, yeah, innovation for us is about developing, testing, and scaling very importantly, new idea, new ways of doing things.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:07.759
Um it's sort of how you build kind of lasting growth and stay resilient with it through, again, through the kind of constant change and and and disruption.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:08.799
Yeah, yeah, great.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:23.680
I mean, one of the reasons I like these kind of podcast conversations is you get to kind of uh think about this concept a bit more and I hear kind of other people's versions of it, and it allows me to kind of think and and kind of um try and articulate um a version of it.
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:41.119
Um and just just just now perhaps on something that's you may be useful to me is understanding that in the corporate world, you know, innovation is perhaps something that people are asking for or requiring for, you know, in terms of uh an output, you know, we need to improve our product, we need to innovate, we need to push things forward.
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:44.799
Whereas design is not really an outcome, they're like we we need some design.
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:50.960
Um, you know, design is is is the kind of process that that is applied to create the innovation, perhaps.
00:19:51.039 --> 00:20:01.200
And I think uh again during these podcast conversations, I've spoken to people that that quite explicitly think about design as the process of making something desirable.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:07.039
You know, oh we've got this, now I need to buy some design, you know, to make it beautiful, which is you know very much part of the process.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:19.200
I think creative people, some of the people I work with are and have worked with are just naturally able they're tastemakers, they're able to understand what is amazing and what will look fantastic and and what won't.
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:24.799
And I think you know, that is a gift and and a talent which you you often need to buy.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:29.359
You need you need to go and find something, you know, can just make this look and feel amazing.
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:46.240
And then uh I thought through the problem or through thought through the origin of the word design perhaps comes from you know, a Latin origin about designation, about making choices, you know, and you think about the other bigger side of design is about you know, it's actually being choiceful, isn't it?
00:20:46.319 --> 00:21:07.359
So there's the there's the there's creating desirability, you know, is one part of design, but actually being choiceful about you know what to do next and showing the showing the design buyer, you know, if you if you want this outcome, you know, make these choices, or if you make these choices, then you'll get that outcome, I guess.
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:18.480
You've sort of written and posted beautifully about uh you know creatives and calling them sort of wonderfully uncom uncompromising and empathetic or curious problem solvers.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:38.240
Um I think these, you know, can you talk a little bit more about that and kind of those traits that you see in your creative teams, you know, particularly in the light of you know AI and kind of new technology, that you know, how do we kind of maintain or or um continue to understand the value of humans in the creative process?
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:55.599
Yeah, look, I I as I say, I've I I I do love working with designers, and and when I move too far away from working with a studio, working with a team, I've always kind of gone, oh no, this is not quite right, and turned back to to seek out designers and creatives.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759
That they they're un wonderfully uncompromising on quality, bordering on perfection.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.240
Which can drive drives me mad.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:11.680
If you're trying to deliver some work kind of on time, on budget, you know, have to kind of beat them off with a stick and say, no, no, it's good, it's good enough.
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.279
And they go, Oh, no, no, just let me, no, no, no, it's fine.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:25.039
Um, but you know, thankfully, it, you know, their their their quality kind of standards are so far above clients' expectations, which is great.
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:40.240
They they are unique problem solvers because I think they kind of approach challenges from many different angles, and their sort of innate kind of empathy and curiosity that drives their sort of human, that their heightened kind of human-centricity.
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:44.079
And I think they're brilliant at putting themselves in the shoes of the target audience.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.400
They kind of really want to know, well, who's this for?
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.000
You know, where's this going to go next?
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:49.519
How is this going to be used?
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:58.079
So they really get into the shoes of it, and therefore they sort of deliver the kind of experiences, they live their experiences, I suppose.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.319
Um, and I think refreshingly, they always challenge the conventional.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:08.559
Again, that requires, you know, if you're managing it, requires patience and where are you going with this?
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.079
But it's they're generating, you know, progressive ideas.
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:16.240
Um, but there's always importantly a bias for action, and they will listen.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:17.599
The best ones, you know, they go, right.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:19.279
So when do we when what's next here?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.559
Who are we talking to next?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:21.920
When are we presenting this?
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:23.359
When are we sharing this?
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.920
So they're already working out how they're going to get there.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:41.279
And they love getting things done and they love getting things out in the real world, which what makes them great innovators, actually, because they they love to say, well, we just need to get some, bring it to life and get it out there and get it in front of people, and let's see how it works.
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:54.720
And of course, that's there's no substitute to that to actually start prototyping and to get they want reaction, they want engagement, and then they want feedback and reaction so that they can iterate further on it.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.599
Yeah, yeah, brilliant.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.960
I love that phrase bias for action.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:57.359
That's good.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:58.480
Well, I'm gonna keep that.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.359
Um I knew this time would fly.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.559
Um I'm gonna have to try and draw our conversation to a close.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:18.720
So so maybe um we can have a go at kind of a vision of the future or kind of a a kind of future view if um optimism is the belief that futures uh better futures can be designed.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:24.720
What does that look like in practice for brands, teams, or even society, perhaps?
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:31.359
Yeah, look, I I think you know, feeling optimistic right now can be quite hard.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:47.039
Um the economy, politics, climate, wars, everything that's going on, kind of the realities of life in in 2025, it's a bit all-consuming and and kind of almost feels little headspace for for kind of change and progress.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.759
So optimism kind of takes effort.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:25:11.839
Um, but that's a that's exactly why I think it's a sort of a business leader's kind of superpower to really have a sort of intentional and strategic act to be to be positive uh and to really think through how we're gonna adapt, how we're gonna kind of meet customers where they're at, and how we're gonna kind of move forward.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:19.200
So it's not naive or blind optimism, it's it's using optimism as a as a as a tool kind of for change.
00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:31.519
And I think that sort of positive disruption, risk taking, it doesn't necessarily need to mean dramatic pivots and kind of high costs and kind of earth-changing interventions.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:49.440
I think it can be small spent small-scale experimentation, incremental changes, but just looking always to move forward and also to kind of for a leader to develop a culture that you know people feel empowered and equipped to challenge, challenge the status quo.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:52.000
But it does often mean kind of taking a risk.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:26:15.759
And I think some of the things that we've been that kind of on our mind at the moment, um, you know, that are ripe for this sort of optimistic thinking and disruptive design, you know, anything in the area of mental health services, sustainability, although sustainability is permanently kind of moving within the kind of dominant narrative, depending on what's going on, and also kind of our aging population is another big challenge.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:28.079
And I suppose, you know, just coming back to your your question about AI, which I just completely ignored, um why am I kind of positive kind of about the future?
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:36.799
I I I think it I think that my optimism for the future, particularly with the next generation, I think it comes from technology being an accelerator.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:47.680
So I think if you combine kind of youth, youthfulness, uh, eagerness, enthusiasm, energy with tech, I think that's a source of immense power.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.160
It's an incredibly incredible enabler.
00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:59.039
Um, and I think the the sort of democratization of tools, more people can get their hands on things to to to try things out is is really important.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:07.680
So that sort of technical agility, multidisciplined, kind of experimental mindset, um, I think is is really important.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:08.799
Thanks, Simon.
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.200
Perhaps to draw things to a close.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:18.799
I know we've talked in the past about your sort of principles um to design with optimism.
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.240
Have you kind of got those to hand?
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:22.079
Could you kind of talk us through those, please?
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:22.799
Sure.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.160
Um yeah, kind of five of them.
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:40.799
I I I mean, bravery, um, and that's you know, believing that we can kind of create a better future um by creating something that makes life you know happier, healthier, easier for someone in some way.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:46.160
So I think, you know, believe in in brave, I think hugely important.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:50.880
I think impact is a very important part of this process.
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:53.359
It's a sort of progressive approach to challenges.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.599
So you're looking to find possibilities and solutions with the most impact.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:12.319
And impact is a currency now that you can really get stakeholders on board to support because they can see that what you're doing is contributing, is going to pay back, is it's gonna do things.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:13.599
I think that's huge important.
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:34.079
Generosity, certainly, in terms of customer obsession, um, and and and designing it very much with yeah, the person that's gonna be affected in mind to make things better for for a particular audience, quite often also for you know vulnerable audiences who've perhaps kind of fallen behind.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:35.680
I think proactiveness.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:54.559
So I think I you know, I like to think, you know, really actively um seeking solutions to a difficulty or frustration, so going after things that are um that are slowing things down, that are irritating, that are, that are, that are, you know, getting people suffering.
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:58.559
Um that that kind of proactivist, go looking for that, really important.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:09.359
And I think finally, you know, the simplicity, you know, less is more ruthlessly simple design, real clarity in the in the proposition.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:18.480
Um and I think all of that can can can kind of make the customer in whatever form that is, you know, feel optimistic too.
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:28.799
And that that certain challenges, when you can see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel, you can see that challenges aren't insurmountable and you can you can move forward together and in partnership.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:29.759
Brilliant.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:30.400
I love that.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.079
I love a five-point plan.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:32.559
Thank you.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:33.440
That's great.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:35.839
Um well, brilliant, Simon.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:39.519
Um, our time has um come to an end, I'm afraid.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:55.759
So maybe in conclusion, it the kind of lesson here is that you know, optimism isn't just a personality trait, it's it's kind of a practice, and it's um it's what happens when experienced people like you, perhaps me, uh use creativity to turn uncertainty into opportunity.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:58.960
So Simon Gore, thank you very much.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:00.559
Thanks very much, Tom.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:02.160
I've I've loved it.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.799
That was Every Dimension from Path.
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:20.720
If you're interested in how design can get you more, that's more available, more premium, and more responsible, head to wearepath.com forward slash everydimension.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:29.279
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00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:35.839
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00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:41.279
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00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:42.480
It really helps.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.240
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