00:00:00
S1: Today's program has been prerecorded, so our phone lines are not open. Well, hey there folks, thank you for tuning in to another exciting edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. So glad you chose to listen in. We're going to make sure we redeem the time. Why don't you strap on your seat belt? We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He's given it as a gift so that you and I might rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice! Be encouraged, my friends, because the King is coming, and because he's coming, we can rejoice and we can have hope. Hope for the future should be something that distinguishes the Christian. We've never been given the permission by Scripture to be succumbed over by despair or fear, cynicism or vitriol. Those are the characteristics of those who have no hope. But even in mourning, even in death. The Apostle Paul teaches us in first Thessalonians 413 that we should mourn like those who have no hope. So no matter what you're facing, whether it's the loss of a loved one or the loss of a job, or the loss of influence and culture. Just know this because Christ not only suffered with us, he can sympathize with us. And because we join in with him in the in his sufferings, we will also join in with his reigning. And because of that, we can walk through this world not seeking to dominate or to steal power. We're not after power grabs, but we're after our opportunity to love our neighbors, to demonstrate to them the compassion of the gospel, and to show them that Christ is alive and he's alive and well in and through us. And so I rejoice in that. And every day you tune in to equip. Just know that our passion here is to equip you to more effectively live, share, and defend your faith. And I can't think of a greater topic than today's topic to help you to become more effective in living, sharing, and defending your faith. Today, we're going to talk to you about how to have a conversation. Now, you may think that with all the social media, emailing, texting, FaceTiming, snapchatting that's going on, that there's a lot of high quality, spiritually redemptive conversations happening. Well, the truth is that although we have easier access to communication, there is less happening than ever before. At least less intentional, powerful, and fruitful redemptive conversations that can actually transform lives the way that Christ has called us to as one person is noted, one cultural anthropologist has noted, we are simply trading monologues and conclusions instead of having dialogues and conversations. So how do we change that? How do we go from talking at one another to talking with one another? And how do we redeem redeem a biblical theology of the power and influence of words? I'm so glad you asked that. You're not the only one thinking about that. So is our guest today. His name is Ken Weitzman. Ken has co-authored a book called Redeeming How We Talk, subtitled discover How Communication fuels our growth, shapes our relationships, and changes our lives. Who is Ken? He is an innovator in social entrepreneur. He's respected for his insights and collaborative spirit. He's the president of King's College, where he teaches courses in philosophy and justice. He's also the founder of the Justice Conference, which was a conference he helped to start. That just absolutely exploded. And I think because of its timeliness and because of what happens during the days of that conference, to really connect organizations and individuals on a wide range of issues. Ken is a consultant and creative advisor to nonprofits and a sought after speaker on the church culture and justice. He's a church planter and leads a lead pastor at Antioch Church. Ken lives in Oregon with his wife and their four daughters, and he's my guest today. Hey, Ken. How are you, sir?
00:04:25
S2: Man, I'm doing good. Thanks, Chris.
00:04:27
S1: How are the good folks at Antioch? And how's the family doing, man?
00:04:31
S2: Oh, family's doing great. We're actually at the back end of a transition to a new church in Portland, Oregon. So, uh, with my four daughters, my wife, trying to just help them navigate that move. Um, as it's a big transition, all our girls are hitting the teenage years.
00:04:48
S1: Oh, man, will you pray for me? I pray for you. I got a teen at home. And so I'm living that life. And every day I gingerly walk to her door in the morning and knock, not knowing who's going to be on the other side of that door, whether friend or foe. And, uh, God, by his grace, has allowed me to survive so far. So I get it, man. Well, we'll be praying for you through transition. We know that, uh, and this isn't just cliche. This is real. The first shepherding responsibility you have is your wife and family, your daughters. And so we we'll be praying for you on that front. Let's talk a little bit about the work that you, you're doing and in particular about this recent book. Where's the vision for the book come from and how does it tie into your previous work?
00:05:36
S2: Yeah, for a, for a long time, really what's been at the center of, of the church and just pastoral ministry is trying to, to speak to a mission of the reconciliation of all things, right? God is making all things new. And, and we are invited into that as, as people that are agents of reconciliation. We have this ministry of reconciliation. In other words, we're putting things back as they ought to be, which is really a biblical justice. And so I'm trying to articulate a theology of justice has been a big part of the last decade or more for me. But in all of that, traveling around, interacting, and then just all the changes culturally happened, happening, began to realize that putting things back is a relational thing. It's putting relationships back. The the world is fundamentally a relational place. And all of those relationships trade on the currency of speech and communication or words. And, and we don't really talk about that. We don't talk about the conversation speech, the words that that help either connect us or push us apart. And then just realizing in today's age of mass communication, this, this is essential and, and something the church needs to be able to recover. Uh, the understanding or the theology of our words and speech.
00:06:52
S1: Yeah. You said understanding and theology. And I'm going to push into that theology comment in just a moment. But, you know, it seems to me, Ken, that we all talk a lot. I know I do as a radio host, a pastor, I talk a whole lot. Most of the people that I know are on some form of social media, sharing opinions and thoughts each and every day. But it seems like we put a lot less thought into the words that we use and how we use them. Is that is that one of your primary concerns? That seems to be one of the issues you're addressing head on, along with AJ, your co-author in the book?
00:07:31
S2: Yeah, I definitely think that we can look at words and see that, um, they have different forms. Like you talked about, there's conclusions or opinions and then there's conversation. And so if you look at social media, just given the length, we're, we're all trading opinions or conclusions. And, and when we do that, we think we're having a conversation, but we're actually not talking about how we arrived at those conclusions, the assumptions we're making, um, uh, the experience we have that would have shaped us to believe those things. And that way I can't look at, um, your reasoning and, and press into it and potentially learn from it or challenge you on it and vice versa. You can't look at how I've arrived at my conclusions, learn from it, interact with it, or even challenge me that I might have some bad thinking and be drawing some wrong conclusions. And so we're all kind of trading these prophetic edge words without really the deep stuff underneath to, to arrive at what I would say is mature, um, or final words. And so, you know, social media is just one area, but I think in life in general, are we slowing down in developing the skills of being able to listen and to understanding the value of the process of conversation?
00:08:48
S1: Yeah. You mentioned slowing down. How much does that have to do with effective communication? Because it seems to me that one of the pressures that we all live up under, and again, in particular, those of us who are public figures, is speed, that sometimes we feel that we have to respond almost in lightning speed to every political announcement, every global event, every sporting event. When actors behave badly or celebrities do something that should capture social attention or does capture social attention. Seems like everybody feels like they have to move fast. And you're recommending a kind of countercultural approach.
00:09:32
S2: Yeah, I've begun to see that social media, like politics for me is, is if God calls you to it, you do it and you do it the best you can. Um, if he doesn't call you to it, you have to be really careful that it doesn't distract you from what he is calling you to. And so the tyranny of the urgent with regard to keeping up with social media. Not everybody can do that or do that well or should do that. Um, and so I think it's really that prior question of understanding where we're supposed to invest our time and then being filled up so that in those moments when it is moving fast, that the right stuff comes out. I look at Jesus's ministry, uh, you know, Jesus was tired. How do you how do you sleep in the middle of a storm, in a boat, when, when waves are crashing over and getting you wet? Um, you know, Jesus, Jesus was tired at the end of the day. And so, um, but he still went and found the mountaintop and listened to God about God kind of resetting him and getting his mind in tune with the kingdom and what his calling or his purpose was. And so when he came off the mountain, he was saying the right things and making the right decisions. And so I think, I think, uh, we're in a season where sleeplessness shouldn't be attached to stress, but prayer. If I'm rolling around in my bed, I don't. I don't tell people at 8:00 in the morning that I couldn't sleep because of stress. I tell them I was praying. Um, and so hopefully, you know, we can find ourselves centered as best we can that, that the right kinds of things would come out of us. It's the state of our heart, uh, that predetermines kind of the nature of our words.
00:11:05
S1: Yeah, I love that statement, I really do. The state of our hearts determines the kind of state of our words. And that connection is really, really powerful. I think it should be noted, uh, Ken, that your book and I want to ask for your forgiveness, man, I have dog eared this thing and marked it up, uh, in many ways, just, uh, just feasting off of it because it's been such a blessing to me. But, but one of the things I love about your book are the quotes, uh, throughout you quote some pretty powerful people and you say some quotable things yourself, but one quote that's in here, and I love you to unpack it just really quickly, the Christian intellectual Oz Guinness once wrote, the outcome of instant total information is inflation. When more and more of anything is available, less and less is valuable. Man, is that powerful. Just just unpack that as you understand it.
00:11:57
S2: Yeah. I mean, inflation, we usually think about it with currency, right? If the government just printed and printed and printed money or what happened in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe ten years ago, that kind of thing. Um, you have all this money, but it doesn't, it's not valuable. Right. It you can have $1 million note and not be able to get a loaf of bread. And so I think that when you look on the internet now, I used to blog and blogging was an amazing thing that we could, we could go and share our journal thoughts with the world, you know, kind of at the push of a button. But when it just exploded so much with social media, with, with all access for everyone. And when the speeds of internet, when the storage of different companies means that you can put anything and everything Thing online all the time. Um, we, we can't keep up with that. And, and, and so I think you've got this inflation of information, uh, and, and it makes you feel this anxiety that we carry through life that somehow I'm supposed to be keeping up or that I'm missing something if I'm not trying to, that there's some piece of information out there that would have changed my life. Give me the answer for my diet. You know, give me the answer for my church. Give me the answer. And we're always chasing some piece of information that's that's just kind of fool's gold out there. Rather than slowing down and saying, what is a healthy rhythm look like? And in the relationships that I've got right in front of me. AM I actually doing a good job in accomplishing what I need to there? And so it is this kind of anxiety that I think is being created with with inflation. And we're just, I think in the church learning how to name that. I mean, it's a new phenomenon.
00:13:39
S1: Yeah, it it is. And discipleship around technology and the use thereof is going to be one of the greatest challenges and opportunities that pastors have before us. And I'll say one more thing before we go to break. And that is, it seems to me that one of the powerful messages of your work is that maybe we've talked too much to the world and talk too little to the person or persons right in front of us, and we need to get back to that and recognize that heaven is watching as well. Folks, we have to take a short break. Ken says in his book, there was nothing. Then there were words, then there was everything. We're going to talk about that. The power of words. What is a biblical theology of words? Ken is going to help us to kind of shape that from scripture. We'll also look at three types of speech in Scripture. We'll talk a little bit about what happens in Scripture when God talks. What can we learn from that? When man talks and when the devil talks? Because all three do speak. And I think it's time for us to step back and ask ourselves, what can we learn about words and about conversation from the Bible? Redeeming how we talk is what we're going to discuss on the other side of this break. Don't change that dial. So much more to come. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks. Looking for the perfect gift for the young man in your life? We've got just the book 72 Questions and Answers about life and becoming the man God designed you to Be by Tim and Mark shoemaker. It's a scripture based guide supplemented by years of personal experience covering manhood, dating, technology, identity, faith, and so much more. Request your copy with the gift of any amount to equip, call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Chris Brooks here, reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. Ken Wiseman is my guest today. Redeeming how we talk, folks, you're going to want to get your hands on a copy of this book because if you talk as much as I do, or more or less, but you want your words to have meaning, significance, power, be redemptive help to connect people to the truths of an eternal God in a way that brings them to salvation and surrendering their hearts to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Then you're going to want to think deeply, not only about the words you use, but how you use them. Can, uh, does a great job in this book, redeeming how we talk and bringing that out. And so I want to give you ordering information. You go to our website, equip radio dot ORG that's equipped radio. Oh, and if the Lord does speak to your heart, you can support us there as well. We do need your prayerful and financial support. We are grateful to be on throughout the US and even into Canada. But it's because of God's grace and your generosity. So please consider that if you'd like to call to support phone number 8886444144 again, that's 8886444144. Uh, Ken, uh, I would love for you to talk a little bit about your training in theology and philosophy. Not for bragging purposes, but for the purposes of saying, how does that training impact this project in particular?
00:17:24
S2: Yeah, theology. So my background was getting an advanced degree in biblical studies and then also an advanced degree in philosophy and, and really theology. It's the words we, we use when we speak about God, right? It's it's it's how we frame our understanding of God. And philosophy simply means the love of wisdom, right? So it's the pursuit of, of understanding, clarity and truth and using words to clarify concepts. And so I think in this project, it really is saying, how do we how do we lean in wisdom in the book of Proverbs, calls allowed. It's personified, right? It's something that speaks to us and that we're supposed to have ears to hear. And Jesus, in many ways comes and incarnates himself as the word that speaks. And we're supposed to have ears to hear. So I really think that what we're talking about is practical theology. You know, do we understand our concepts of God, and how does that then inform our words or get reflected in how we're communicating?
00:18:29
S1: Now, one of the cool things about you, and I've never read this about anyone, is that you used to be bilingual, but you lost the language. Now, I hate to laugh about that, but I do want to know a little bit more about that. What is it like to to say? I used to be bilingual, but I lost the language.
00:18:50
S2: Uh, well, my dad's an immigrant from the Netherlands, so he came over in the 50s and then ended up joining the U.S. Navy. And so, uh, when I was 3 to 6 years old, we were back in Holland and I spoke fluent Dutch, went to a Dutch school. You know, just think of any six year old walking around now. I mean, they have a big vocabulary and speak really well. Uh, so when we came back to the States, my dad was really worried about me falling behind in my English with my classmates. And so he kind of forbade me from speaking Dutch in the house. And then two years later, he went to talk to me and it was just all gone. So, I mean, you learn it quick at a young age, but, uh, if you don't use it, it just goes away. So, uh, the words sound familiar. I can see them roll my eyes and do all the interesting things the Dutch language. But the only concepts I understand are go to your room and shut up. You know things I heard on a regular basis.
00:19:45
S1: But yeah, yeah, but but losing the language, what did that teach you that. And how did that impact this book for you?
00:19:52
S2: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing that I've thought about, you know, as I went through life and people are working hard to learn another language, but what we, what we speak is reinforced. What we don't use or speak, we end up losing. And so that famous quote that we become the stories we tell, what are our words patterning for us? What are the grooves that they're deepening? How do they begin to define us over time? And when we aren't talking about certain things, what are we not naming? What are we not singing when we're praying? Are we leaving off the Thanksgiving? Uh, what are the things that don't show up in our speech patterns? And what does that mean in terms of, of not defining us in areas that we might want to. So, so even negative communication, the more we do something, the more we pattern something. It really does shape who we are and who we become.
00:20:46
S1: So let's shape a little bit of a biblical theology. You know, when preparing for this, this program, I immediately thought of Psalm 19 and 14. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. These are words that we often quote. Many of us have prayed, but maybe we need to think more about the theological implications of it. So in your book, you talk about God talking in Scripture, man talking in Scripture, the devil talking in Scripture, just kind of walk us through what we learned from watching that speech.
00:21:27
S2: Yeah. I think it's an interesting thing. We all talk about being made in the image of God, right? That humankind has made in the image of God. And we grab things like, well, maybe love is is coming from that. Maybe our relationality is coming from that. But we don't usually talk about things like God is a creative God. So somehow being made in the image of God means that we're hopelessly creative as humans. And, and I certainly don't think that we, we pick up on the power of words that we're talking animals, right? Uh, God spoke the world into existence. His words have power. They, they they move forth and influence things. And we have that same power. James talks about it in a destructive way that a loose tongue kind of sets, sets off a forest fire, right. That that the scarred landscape of black trees that you can see after a forest fire starts with one little spark. And so even a wrong or an errant word of ours has that same power that God's words do. Um, and if we realize that being made in the image of God means we have powerful speech that we can maybe focus on. How do we redeem that? How do we use that speech to talk in constructive ways? Ephesians 429 let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but only that which is helpful for building up others according to their needs. There's patterns of speech that are negative, destructive, and those that are good. And so I think that's what we're learning in terms of the image of God. And then ultimately with Satan, that the twisting of words, the subtle bending of words, the manipulation of words, um, that, that sound good to selfish ends, but are detached from the reconciliation of all things, the way things ought to be justice. Uh, those can lead us astray in quick order.
00:23:14
S1: Yeah. You call it writing your book. Civil discourse isn't the answer to everything, but uncivil discourse isn't the answer to anything. And it seems like this is one of the great cultural sins. Let's just talk about, uh. If we are to pattern ourselves in a way we communicate after our creator, after our Redeemer, after our Savior. Uh, then what are some of the communication or conversational sins that you're seeing happen in our culture that are most concerning to you?
00:23:47
S2: I think if we went back to, to the word in inflation, when we have this inflation, I think it's like puffing ourselves up that we we know more than we do. So I think one of the things we're losing in society is humility. And humility is, is deeply connected to our speech. Uh, that if we don't know everything, if we have things to learn from others, if, if even in the knowledge we have, we might be getting the tone wrong or not doing it with the proper nuance. That humility causes us to come into our conversation in a posture that's receptive to dialogue, right? Uh, and so I think just to take Facebook as an example, the algorithms working behind Facebook, you know, these powerful algorithms, they know what you like, what you interact with. Even if you hover over a post, they know that that content engages you. And so little by little, they're going to feed you more of that content, more of that content. So here's the big insight. The algorithms of Facebook are designed to lead us to the most extreme version of ourselves. All of us are being led to the most extreme version of ourselves without really knowing it. And so what we have is this giant confirmation bias that the more we use social media, the more we're seeing reflected to ourselves, the beliefs that we actually hold and the things that we, we think we know. And, and it gives us this false sense of pride that all of these news channels are saying what I agree with and missing the fact that they're all saying that because someone, some, some algorithm has sorted and now just showing you back a version of yourself that you've kind of taught it to do.
00:25:30
S1: And so it's a dangerous definition of what it means to live in an echo chamber. How do we get out of that? Well, maybe it's by meditating on the words of God. When we come back, we're going to talk a little bit about the words of God and also consider the role of silence and the effectiveness of communication, the power of listening, and so much more. I promise you, the best is yet to come. Don't change that dial. Next up on equipped with Chris Brooks. Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is prerecorded. While we won't be taking calls, we do want to connect with you on social media. Hey there folks. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. You know, we're always looking for ways to hook you up, to take care of you, to get good resources into your hands. Such is the case today. Ken Weitzman, AJ Swoboda has written a great book, Redeeming How We Talk. Those of you who want to order the book Redeeming How We Talk, you can do so at our website. Equip radio dot ORG. That's equipped radio dot ORG. Ken is my guest today. Ken, I want to just give another great quote from the book and it says this from Ellen Davis accurate speech about anything, and especially about God, is in fact, a rhythm of silence and speech, speaking and listening. The power of silence is something that we underestimate. Your co-author, A.J. talks about how important Mondays are for him, because these are days where he goes silent. Talk about the power of listening in conversation and silence.
00:27:14
S2: Boy. Yeah. Um, in the book, one of the parts that I love the most in redeeming how we talk is, is bringing in Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Henri Nouwen and putting their voices in juxtaposition, but they there's really such a powerful thought of, of understanding that when we run into community and we haven't stilled ourselves inside that our insecurity, our tension, our anxiety hasn't somehow been quieted in our conversation with God. In other words, if we can't handle solitude, then when we run into community, we're trying to, uh, stuff something into ourselves. We're trying to take something from others to resolve our own tension. So Bonhoeffer would argue that that until we still ourselves in solitude and allow God to do his work in our hearts, we're not coming to community with anything to offer. We're just looking to take. Uh, and Henri Nouwen would echo a lot of those same thoughts and just say that, that our loneliness, our existential loneliness in this world, that if we can't find connection with God first, uh, then we're not coming to others and looking to truly see them. We're only seeing our need. And so I think that rhythm keeps us from from getting too far out. That rhythm of speech and silence, that rhythm of solitude and community. So that when we enter into spaces, we're speaking the redemptive words. It's not simply being driven by our wants, wishes, and desires or the need that we're feeling, the ache inside from loneliness.
00:28:46
S1: You know, I think there's also something to be said about the amount of cross-cultural interaction we have today. I think more and more voluminous, voluminous, and, uh, more diverse interactions are happening than ever before in human history in a lot of ways, because of just ease of access to interact with people around the world, to assume that we can naturally speak effectively, communicate powerfully and intentionally across those cultural lines without listening more than we speak is, I think, a prideful and false assumption. And so just that alone. Every day I'm made more and more aware, Ken, of how much more listening I need to do and less talking and recognizing. There's so little I know about the way that others are experiencing this world. And, and even digging deeper into this whole thought of the, the, the speech of God and, and what he says and how we can echo that to others is really captivating to me. I really want to hear you talk a little bit more too, about this whole thought. And I quoted Psalm 19 and 14, and this helps me to kind of be mindful of at least one thought when it comes to when I talk. And that is, is, is my speech is the meditation of my heart. Is it pleasing and acceptable in the sight of the Lord? That's, that's one, uh, you know, person, obviously, I need to be very mindful of. But you also say in the book that we need to speak for the good of others. So, so it's almost like this whole thought of being unselfish in a way that we speak. And I'm not just speaking for me, I'm not just speaking to get stuff off of my proverbial chest, but I'm actually speaking to honor and glorify God. And I'm also speaking for the good of the community, the good of, of man. Is that really kind of the, the, uh, the boundaries of my speech to help to keep me safe?
00:30:53
S3: Yeah, there's definitely some boundaries.
00:30:54
S2: I don't think we think of our speech affecting or shaping the cultures that we're in as much as we should, right? That, that those cultures are always bending and twisting and growing and being shaped. And how we use our words is going to either reinforce or challenge your group of ten friends, your school, your city, um, this country. And so there's this opportunity to change the world with just our words. So if I tell people all the time that just because we can't fix the world doesn't mean we can't change the world. And God's looking for a few people that are still idealistic enough to believe that we can change the world. And, and so we're called to go out and change. But we we naturally think of our hands. If I say change the world to people, everyone immediately jumps up and starts thinking of, of going and starting nonprofits or some, some sort of entrepreneurial entrepreneurial ism or some service project or trip. I don't think we think of our words and God spoke the world into existence. He sent Jesus as the word, and that word was willing to sacrifice itself in a passive way in order to, to bring about this powerful change. Right? And then the Holy Spirit, which is a wind that comes and blows and, and moves in and through us and speaks. Uh, it'd be really interesting to grab a bunch of people and say, you know, let's go change the world, put your hands behind your back and and think about what that means. Can we do it with just our words? Uh, and I think that there's an incredible opportunity there. And I think that, that we've underestimated that. That's kind of, again, part of the heart that comes into this. And I think you said something really important that that there are there's a role for voices in this, not just for the most privileged, the most educated, the most rich to come and tell everyone else what they need to know. And so Paul talks about letting everybody have a chance to speak or a word. And I think we're waking up in the West in America and realizing how much there's a wealth of knowledge in Asia and Africa and Europe and South America with scholars, theologians, pastors, workers that have something to share or to teach us and that we need to walk into those rooms and spaces and allow ourselves to hear by refraining from thinking we have all the answers. It's the those that are poor in the eyes of the world that God has made rich in faith. In other words, the people that have the richest faith, uh, the thing that they can most teach us about faith are often the people that we don't let have a voice in the room.
00:33:29
S1: You know, and this, this kind of leads to another thought. Now you just said something that I think is critical and I don't want our listeners today to, to miss this. Number one, you said when we think about changing the world, don't just think of actions. Now you're not saying actions don't matter because they do matter, right? Um, but, but think of the power of words. But I want to add another thing that you talk about in the book that's so critical. It's not just the power of what we say, but it's also the power of what we don't say. The power of silence. Now this has to be contextualized. One of my former mentors, the late Chuck Colson, used to talk a lot about the sin of silence. So there is in the face of injustice, the sin of silence that far too many of us fall prey to. But you're talking about a different type of silence. You're talking about a silence that comes because we're honoring the voice of God, and we're listening for the voice of God. Maybe in prayer, maybe as we study God's Word, but also we're honoring the voice of God as he speaks through our neighbors, in particular, those who are raised in a, in a, in a, in a different culture, different socio economic setting. And so in some ways, can our silence in the audience of those who come from the developing world are silence. And the audience of those who come from the poorer socioeconomic classes is a way of honoring the fact that God does not just speak through the privileged. God does not just speak through the few or the wealthy, but he speaks through all people. So we if we're one of the ways we can actually change the world is through silence, isn't it?
00:35:11
S2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, picture a soccer team or picture a band. You know, if somebody hogs the ball the whole time, um, it's dysfunctional.
00:35:20
S1: It's the electric.
00:35:22
S2: The electric guitarist just keeps going off on his own solo the whole time. It's dysfunctional. And if I walk into a room and I've done this before and my my peer group has done this before, if we walk into spaces and just occupy all of the speaking because we think we have so much wisdom to bring that we're some some way bringing God to other people, missing the fact that God is already there and been working and working through others. If we don't take and pull ourselves back, we don't allow the song to become what it should the team to be, what it should, the chorus to be, what it should. Yeah.
00:36:00
S1: So. So there are ball hogs and there are conversational hogs, is what you're saying is that somebody, somebody could do that.
00:36:07
S2: And I'm guilty and I'm guilty.
00:36:08
S1: Of being. That's right, that's right. I think we all are. And that's why we need to be reminded of the words again in your book. On page 122, the words of of James, the brother of Jesus. Don't be quick with your mouth. Don't be hasty in your heart. So to utter anything before God, God is in heaven and you are on earth. So let your words be few. And we need to be mindful of that, that we are called to let our words be few, to listen and to embrace the power of silence and solitude. Not as in action, not as indifference, not as apathy, but as proactive, honoring, honoring of God and honoring of others. Let's talk about wisdom on the other side of this break. I think there's a lot that we can learn from Ken about wisdom and words, and I absolutely love this quote from Michael Novak, the late, great economist Michael Novak. Civilization is constituted by reasoned conversation. Civilized people are able to reason with one another. Barbarians club one another. Let's do less clubbing of one another and more reasoning together. Even the God of all creation says, come now, let us reason together. If God calls us to reason with him, we ought to be willing to reason with one another. How do we speak better words? Ken is going to tell us how to do that on the other side of this break. We'll be right back with more of equipped right after this. In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step in as an equipper. You're not just. Giving your monthly support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused and anxious culture, and you'll get exclusive resources and updates from us all year long. Join our team of monthly supporters today. Call (888) 644-4144 or visit equip radio.org. Navigating manhood comes with questions and thankfully, God's Word has answers. 72 questions and answers about life and becoming the man God designed you to be. Is a biblical guidebook that tackles the real questions young men face today about dating, identity, technology, pornography, faith, and so much more. You can request your copy or get one for someone you know with a gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Today's program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. Hey there folks. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm asking for you to consider doing me a favor, and that is to become a prayerful partner with us. We need your faithful intercessions. Uh, it is so important that we have an army of intercessors. Can you please pray for us? Uh, we'd also love to hear how we're impacting your life. It'd be great if you financially supported. But even if you can't, man, you have no idea how your words of encouragement take us so far. They become like wind beneath our wings. If you could please give us a call. Let us know how equipped is impacting your life. You can call the number 8886444144, that's 8886444144. My guest, Ken Weitzman, has coauthored a great book, Redeeming How We Talk. Discover how communication fuels our growth, shapes our relationships, and changes our lives. We're talking about this great book now, Ken. Uh, this is kind of the rapid fire round. So I got a couple questions, but we only have a few minutes to answer, so let's do the best we can. Why is it that when people hear words like reconciliation, uh, sympathizing with others, uh, connection to others that they so often they hear compromise?
00:40:32
S2: MM. Yeah. I think my, uh, my, my study and my understanding, my experience has been that the last hundred years in America with this fight between liberal, uh, and, and fundamentalist theology created a climate in which it was incredibly toxic. And there were, there were code words that that represented things. So if you talk too much about love, it must mean that you're not truly believing the Bible or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that he died for the sins of the world. And isn't that ironic that too much of the word love would would kind of create an anti Jesus reaction in people's minds that care about truth. And too much doctrine to other people meant that you were somehow disconnected from the problems of this world or society, that you were a hypocrite, that you were like the Pharisee, that you were turning a blind eye to the poor. And, and isn't it crazy that people that would care about truth would would miss the truths of the orphan, the widow, and the alien. But but when there's a fight like a boxing match in the middle of, of, uh, the rounds, you go to separate corners. And so any fight leads us to separate extremes, right? We don't sit in the middle of, of the boxing ring back to back. Um, so I think the last hundred years created, uh, these polar opposite extremes where we were really suspicious of, of different groups and different words. And I think we're trying to come out of that space. So I think there's been a lot of movement with millennials, what's called the justice generation, a lot of work in the area of theology of justice, that people that care about doctrine, theology don't have to be skittish around words like justice. So I'm really encouraged to see that, that in some, at least in some ways, this is changing.
00:42:17
S1: Yeah. I want to talk about what we can learn about Jesus's way of dealing with conflict, because if we're going to win back a broken world, it seems to me that we have to learn how to engage in controversial conversations in a healing way that does not leave the fruit of the spirit on the outside, is not devoid of love, joy, peace, patience, all of these things, including self-control. So what do we learn from Jesus's way of dealing with conflict, and how will that help us inside the church and as we interact with the watching world?
00:42:52
S2: Well, I think one of my favorite chapters in the book, if not my my favorite chapter is, I think chapter 11, which deals with Matthew 18, which, which I grew up as kind of a church discipline passage. This is the passage how we're going to punish the teenage girl that got pregnant and shame her. This is how we're going to push people out of the church that have done something morally wrong. How we're going to excommunicate them. And I was actually taught that you look for a healthy church that's going to preach the word rightly, that's going to administer the sacraments correctly, and it's going to practice church discipline. Those were the three things you looked for. And and I talk about how I, I woke up one day and said, that's really strange. Where did that come from? If Jesus says they're going to know you by your love, how come that's not one of the three? And how come punishment is. And I went back and found it in the Belgic confession, and that this is really something that has grown up alongside the Protestant church. And there was a context for it in reaction to the Catholic Church. They wanted to go back to Scripture. They wanted to do the sacraments differently. And and in the Renaissance era, there was a lot of licentiousness, and they wanted to disciple well and discipline and disciple Those two words are connected, aren't they? So there was a context for the Belgic confession in those three things. But but what's strange is over time we codified that as the North Star. And in doing so, we missed the fact that, no, a church is something that reflects the heart of Christ. A church is working towards the reconciliation of all things. It's a light to the world. And ultimately, um, when Matthew 18 says, let somebody be like the tax collector. How did Jesus treat the tax collector? Jesus called the tax collector back in God the Father ran after the prodigal son when the prodigal son turned and was open or receptive. And and, and we're not supposed to be pushing people outside the community if they choose their way out. That's one thing. But we're always trying to pull people back into healthy relationships. So our words are not one of punitive measures. Our words are one of exhortation. Maybe discipline, but always discipline that's trying to bring back to reconciliation.
00:45:03
S1: Absolutely, absolutely. That type of loving correction that heals and restores folks back into community. Man, this all starts not in the public, not on social media world, not in the public square. It starts with our marriages. It starts with our children. It starts in our homes. So let's speak more Redemptively let's know that God is watching. Let's make sure our words are not filled with evil things, but are actually seasoned with grace and full of love. And I leave, uh, folks with this thought. Uh, this comes from your book. This is a quote from you guys. Uh, Ken, words are central to the calling of Christian faith ministry and witness with words we write, preach, and teach with words we lead, motivate, and inspire with words. We live out our vocation to love God and neighbor. Language is spiritual, and that's the reason why this book is so important. Redeeming how we talk. Hey Ken, tell AJ we said thanks. Appreciate you both and thank you for writing this book.
00:46:08
S2: Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me.
00:46:10
S1: Folks, you can learn more about Ken and about his work by going to our website, equip radio dot ORG. And again, I want you to take this conversation as seriously as any other interview that I've done. What good is right action? What good is right thoughts? What good is even right emotions and theology if we don't have right communication, right conversation with words, people believe and come to Christ. So never underestimate the power of words. Get your hands on a copy of Redeeming How We Talk and support the program as well at equip radio.org. Until we're together again, remember equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Today's program has been prerecorded, so our phone lines are not open. Well, hey there folks, thank you for tuning in to another exciting edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. So glad you chose to listen in. We're going to make sure we redeem the time. Why don't you strap on your seat belt? We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He's given it as a gift so that you and I might rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice! Be encouraged, my friends, because the King is coming, and because he's coming, we can rejoice and we can have hope. Hope for the future should be something that distinguishes the Christian. We've never been given the permission by Scripture to be succumbed over by despair or fear, cynicism or vitriol. Those are the characteristics of those who have no hope. But even in mourning, even in death. The Apostle Paul teaches us in first Thessalonians 413 that we should mourn like those who have no hope. So no matter what you're facing, whether it's the loss of a loved one or the loss of a job, or the loss of influence and culture. Just know this because Christ not only suffered with us, he can sympathize with us. And because we join in with him in the in his sufferings, we will also join in with his reigning. And because of that, we can walk through this world not seeking to dominate or to steal power. We're not after power grabs, but we're after our opportunity to love our neighbors, to demonstrate to them the compassion of the gospel, and to show them that Christ is alive and he's alive and well in and through us. And so I rejoice in that. And every day you tune in to equip. Just know that our passion here is to equip you to more effectively live, share, and defend your faith. And I can't think of a greater topic than today's topic to help you to become more effective in living, sharing, and defending your faith. Today, we're going to talk to you about how to have a conversation. Now, you may think that with all the social media, emailing, texting, FaceTiming, snapchatting that's going on, that there's a lot of high quality, spiritually redemptive conversations happening. Well, the truth is that although we have easier access to communication, there is less happening than ever before. At least less intentional, powerful, and fruitful redemptive conversations that can actually transform lives the way that Christ has called us to as one person is noted, one cultural anthropologist has noted, we are simply trading monologues and conclusions instead of having dialogues and conversations. So how do we change that? How do we go from talking at one another to talking with one another? And how do we redeem redeem a biblical theology of the power and influence of words? I'm so glad you asked that. You're not the only one thinking about that. So is our guest today. His name is Ken Weitzman. Ken has co-authored a book called Redeeming How We Talk, subtitled discover How Communication fuels our growth, shapes our relationships, and changes our lives. Who is Ken? He is an innovator in social entrepreneur. He's respected for his insights and collaborative spirit. He's the president of King's College, where he teaches courses in philosophy and justice. He's also the founder of the Justice Conference, which was a conference he helped to start. That just absolutely exploded. And I think because of its timeliness and because of what happens during the days of that conference, to really connect organizations and individuals on a wide range of issues. Ken is a consultant and creative advisor to nonprofits and a sought after speaker on the church culture and justice. He's a church planter and leads a lead pastor at Antioch Church. Ken lives in Oregon with his wife and their four daughters, and he's my guest today. Hey, Ken. How are you, sir?
00:04:25
S2: Man, I'm doing good. Thanks, Chris.
00:04:27
S1: How are the good folks at Antioch? And how's the family doing, man?
00:04:31
S2: Oh, family's doing great. We're actually at the back end of a transition to a new church in Portland, Oregon. So, uh, with my four daughters, my wife, trying to just help them navigate that move. Um, as it's a big transition, all our girls are hitting the teenage years.
00:04:48
S1: Oh, man, will you pray for me? I pray for you. I got a teen at home. And so I'm living that life. And every day I gingerly walk to her door in the morning and knock, not knowing who's going to be on the other side of that door, whether friend or foe. And, uh, God, by his grace, has allowed me to survive so far. So I get it, man. Well, we'll be praying for you through transition. We know that, uh, and this isn't just cliche. This is real. The first shepherding responsibility you have is your wife and family, your daughters. And so we we'll be praying for you on that front. Let's talk a little bit about the work that you, you're doing and in particular about this recent book. Where's the vision for the book come from and how does it tie into your previous work?
00:05:36
S2: Yeah, for a, for a long time, really what's been at the center of, of the church and just pastoral ministry is trying to, to speak to a mission of the reconciliation of all things, right? God is making all things new. And, and we are invited into that as, as people that are agents of reconciliation. We have this ministry of reconciliation. In other words, we're putting things back as they ought to be, which is really a biblical justice. And so I'm trying to articulate a theology of justice has been a big part of the last decade or more for me. But in all of that, traveling around, interacting, and then just all the changes culturally happened, happening, began to realize that putting things back is a relational thing. It's putting relationships back. The the world is fundamentally a relational place. And all of those relationships trade on the currency of speech and communication or words. And, and we don't really talk about that. We don't talk about the conversation speech, the words that that help either connect us or push us apart. And then just realizing in today's age of mass communication, this, this is essential and, and something the church needs to be able to recover. Uh, the understanding or the theology of our words and speech.
00:06:52
S1: Yeah. You said understanding and theology. And I'm going to push into that theology comment in just a moment. But, you know, it seems to me, Ken, that we all talk a lot. I know I do as a radio host, a pastor, I talk a whole lot. Most of the people that I know are on some form of social media, sharing opinions and thoughts each and every day. But it seems like we put a lot less thought into the words that we use and how we use them. Is that is that one of your primary concerns? That seems to be one of the issues you're addressing head on, along with AJ, your co-author in the book?
00:07:31
S2: Yeah, I definitely think that we can look at words and see that, um, they have different forms. Like you talked about, there's conclusions or opinions and then there's conversation. And so if you look at social media, just given the length, we're, we're all trading opinions or conclusions. And, and when we do that, we think we're having a conversation, but we're actually not talking about how we arrived at those conclusions, the assumptions we're making, um, uh, the experience we have that would have shaped us to believe those things. And that way I can't look at, um, your reasoning and, and press into it and potentially learn from it or challenge you on it and vice versa. You can't look at how I've arrived at my conclusions, learn from it, interact with it, or even challenge me that I might have some bad thinking and be drawing some wrong conclusions. And so we're all kind of trading these prophetic edge words without really the deep stuff underneath to, to arrive at what I would say is mature, um, or final words. And so, you know, social media is just one area, but I think in life in general, are we slowing down in developing the skills of being able to listen and to understanding the value of the process of conversation?
00:08:48
S1: Yeah. You mentioned slowing down. How much does that have to do with effective communication? Because it seems to me that one of the pressures that we all live up under, and again, in particular, those of us who are public figures, is speed, that sometimes we feel that we have to respond almost in lightning speed to every political announcement, every global event, every sporting event. When actors behave badly or celebrities do something that should capture social attention or does capture social attention. Seems like everybody feels like they have to move fast. And you're recommending a kind of countercultural approach.
00:09:32
S2: Yeah, I've begun to see that social media, like politics for me is, is if God calls you to it, you do it and you do it the best you can. Um, if he doesn't call you to it, you have to be really careful that it doesn't distract you from what he is calling you to. And so the tyranny of the urgent with regard to keeping up with social media. Not everybody can do that or do that well or should do that. Um, and so I think it's really that prior question of understanding where we're supposed to invest our time and then being filled up so that in those moments when it is moving fast, that the right stuff comes out. I look at Jesus's ministry, uh, you know, Jesus was tired. How do you how do you sleep in the middle of a storm, in a boat, when, when waves are crashing over and getting you wet? Um, you know, Jesus, Jesus was tired at the end of the day. And so, um, but he still went and found the mountaintop and listened to God about God kind of resetting him and getting his mind in tune with the kingdom and what his calling or his purpose was. And so when he came off the mountain, he was saying the right things and making the right decisions. And so I think, I think, uh, we're in a season where sleeplessness shouldn't be attached to stress, but prayer. If I'm rolling around in my bed, I don't. I don't tell people at 8:00 in the morning that I couldn't sleep because of stress. I tell them I was praying. Um, and so hopefully, you know, we can find ourselves centered as best we can that, that the right kinds of things would come out of us. It's the state of our heart, uh, that predetermines kind of the nature of our words.
00:11:05
S1: Yeah, I love that statement, I really do. The state of our hearts determines the kind of state of our words. And that connection is really, really powerful. I think it should be noted, uh, Ken, that your book and I want to ask for your forgiveness, man, I have dog eared this thing and marked it up, uh, in many ways, just, uh, just feasting off of it because it's been such a blessing to me. But, but one of the things I love about your book are the quotes, uh, throughout you quote some pretty powerful people and you say some quotable things yourself, but one quote that's in here, and I love you to unpack it just really quickly, the Christian intellectual Oz Guinness once wrote, the outcome of instant total information is inflation. When more and more of anything is available, less and less is valuable. Man, is that powerful. Just just unpack that as you understand it.
00:11:57
S2: Yeah. I mean, inflation, we usually think about it with currency, right? If the government just printed and printed and printed money or what happened in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe ten years ago, that kind of thing. Um, you have all this money, but it doesn't, it's not valuable. Right. It you can have $1 million note and not be able to get a loaf of bread. And so I think that when you look on the internet now, I used to blog and blogging was an amazing thing that we could, we could go and share our journal thoughts with the world, you know, kind of at the push of a button. But when it just exploded so much with social media, with, with all access for everyone. And when the speeds of internet, when the storage of different companies means that you can put anything and everything Thing online all the time. Um, we, we can't keep up with that. And, and, and so I think you've got this inflation of information, uh, and, and it makes you feel this anxiety that we carry through life that somehow I'm supposed to be keeping up or that I'm missing something if I'm not trying to, that there's some piece of information out there that would have changed my life. Give me the answer for my diet. You know, give me the answer for my church. Give me the answer. And we're always chasing some piece of information that's that's just kind of fool's gold out there. Rather than slowing down and saying, what is a healthy rhythm look like? And in the relationships that I've got right in front of me. AM I actually doing a good job in accomplishing what I need to there? And so it is this kind of anxiety that I think is being created with with inflation. And we're just, I think in the church learning how to name that. I mean, it's a new phenomenon.
00:13:39
S1: Yeah, it it is. And discipleship around technology and the use thereof is going to be one of the greatest challenges and opportunities that pastors have before us. And I'll say one more thing before we go to break. And that is, it seems to me that one of the powerful messages of your work is that maybe we've talked too much to the world and talk too little to the person or persons right in front of us, and we need to get back to that and recognize that heaven is watching as well. Folks, we have to take a short break. Ken says in his book, there was nothing. Then there were words, then there was everything. We're going to talk about that. The power of words. What is a biblical theology of words? Ken is going to help us to kind of shape that from scripture. We'll also look at three types of speech in Scripture. We'll talk a little bit about what happens in Scripture when God talks. What can we learn from that? When man talks and when the devil talks? Because all three do speak. And I think it's time for us to step back and ask ourselves, what can we learn about words and about conversation from the Bible? Redeeming how we talk is what we're going to discuss on the other side of this break. Don't change that dial. So much more to come. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks. Looking for the perfect gift for the young man in your life? We've got just the book 72 Questions and Answers about life and becoming the man God designed you to Be by Tim and Mark shoemaker. It's a scripture based guide supplemented by years of personal experience covering manhood, dating, technology, identity, faith, and so much more. Request your copy with the gift of any amount to equip, call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Chris Brooks here, reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. Ken Wiseman is my guest today. Redeeming how we talk, folks, you're going to want to get your hands on a copy of this book because if you talk as much as I do, or more or less, but you want your words to have meaning, significance, power, be redemptive help to connect people to the truths of an eternal God in a way that brings them to salvation and surrendering their hearts to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Then you're going to want to think deeply, not only about the words you use, but how you use them. Can, uh, does a great job in this book, redeeming how we talk and bringing that out. And so I want to give you ordering information. You go to our website, equip radio dot ORG that's equipped radio. Oh, and if the Lord does speak to your heart, you can support us there as well. We do need your prayerful and financial support. We are grateful to be on throughout the US and even into Canada. But it's because of God's grace and your generosity. So please consider that if you'd like to call to support phone number 8886444144 again, that's 8886444144. Uh, Ken, uh, I would love for you to talk a little bit about your training in theology and philosophy. Not for bragging purposes, but for the purposes of saying, how does that training impact this project in particular?
00:17:24
S2: Yeah, theology. So my background was getting an advanced degree in biblical studies and then also an advanced degree in philosophy and, and really theology. It's the words we, we use when we speak about God, right? It's it's it's how we frame our understanding of God. And philosophy simply means the love of wisdom, right? So it's the pursuit of, of understanding, clarity and truth and using words to clarify concepts. And so I think in this project, it really is saying, how do we how do we lean in wisdom in the book of Proverbs, calls allowed. It's personified, right? It's something that speaks to us and that we're supposed to have ears to hear. And Jesus, in many ways comes and incarnates himself as the word that speaks. And we're supposed to have ears to hear. So I really think that what we're talking about is practical theology. You know, do we understand our concepts of God, and how does that then inform our words or get reflected in how we're communicating?
00:18:29
S1: Now, one of the cool things about you, and I've never read this about anyone, is that you used to be bilingual, but you lost the language. Now, I hate to laugh about that, but I do want to know a little bit more about that. What is it like to to say? I used to be bilingual, but I lost the language.
00:18:50
S2: Uh, well, my dad's an immigrant from the Netherlands, so he came over in the 50s and then ended up joining the U.S. Navy. And so, uh, when I was 3 to 6 years old, we were back in Holland and I spoke fluent Dutch, went to a Dutch school. You know, just think of any six year old walking around now. I mean, they have a big vocabulary and speak really well. Uh, so when we came back to the States, my dad was really worried about me falling behind in my English with my classmates. And so he kind of forbade me from speaking Dutch in the house. And then two years later, he went to talk to me and it was just all gone. So, I mean, you learn it quick at a young age, but, uh, if you don't use it, it just goes away. So, uh, the words sound familiar. I can see them roll my eyes and do all the interesting things the Dutch language. But the only concepts I understand are go to your room and shut up. You know things I heard on a regular basis.
00:19:45
S1: But yeah, yeah, but but losing the language, what did that teach you that. And how did that impact this book for you?
00:19:52
S2: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing that I've thought about, you know, as I went through life and people are working hard to learn another language, but what we, what we speak is reinforced. What we don't use or speak, we end up losing. And so that famous quote that we become the stories we tell, what are our words patterning for us? What are the grooves that they're deepening? How do they begin to define us over time? And when we aren't talking about certain things, what are we not naming? What are we not singing when we're praying? Are we leaving off the Thanksgiving? Uh, what are the things that don't show up in our speech patterns? And what does that mean in terms of, of not defining us in areas that we might want to. So, so even negative communication, the more we do something, the more we pattern something. It really does shape who we are and who we become.
00:20:46
S1: So let's shape a little bit of a biblical theology. You know, when preparing for this, this program, I immediately thought of Psalm 19 and 14. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer. These are words that we often quote. Many of us have prayed, but maybe we need to think more about the theological implications of it. So in your book, you talk about God talking in Scripture, man talking in Scripture, the devil talking in Scripture, just kind of walk us through what we learned from watching that speech.
00:21:27
S2: Yeah. I think it's an interesting thing. We all talk about being made in the image of God, right? That humankind has made in the image of God. And we grab things like, well, maybe love is is coming from that. Maybe our relationality is coming from that. But we don't usually talk about things like God is a creative God. So somehow being made in the image of God means that we're hopelessly creative as humans. And, and I certainly don't think that we, we pick up on the power of words that we're talking animals, right? Uh, God spoke the world into existence. His words have power. They, they they move forth and influence things. And we have that same power. James talks about it in a destructive way that a loose tongue kind of sets, sets off a forest fire, right. That that the scarred landscape of black trees that you can see after a forest fire starts with one little spark. And so even a wrong or an errant word of ours has that same power that God's words do. Um, and if we realize that being made in the image of God means we have powerful speech that we can maybe focus on. How do we redeem that? How do we use that speech to talk in constructive ways? Ephesians 429 let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but only that which is helpful for building up others according to their needs. There's patterns of speech that are negative, destructive, and those that are good. And so I think that's what we're learning in terms of the image of God. And then ultimately with Satan, that the twisting of words, the subtle bending of words, the manipulation of words, um, that, that sound good to selfish ends, but are detached from the reconciliation of all things, the way things ought to be justice. Uh, those can lead us astray in quick order.
00:23:14
S1: Yeah. You call it writing your book. Civil discourse isn't the answer to everything, but uncivil discourse isn't the answer to anything. And it seems like this is one of the great cultural sins. Let's just talk about, uh. If we are to pattern ourselves in a way we communicate after our creator, after our Redeemer, after our Savior. Uh, then what are some of the communication or conversational sins that you're seeing happen in our culture that are most concerning to you?
00:23:47
S2: I think if we went back to, to the word in inflation, when we have this inflation, I think it's like puffing ourselves up that we we know more than we do. So I think one of the things we're losing in society is humility. And humility is, is deeply connected to our speech. Uh, that if we don't know everything, if we have things to learn from others, if, if even in the knowledge we have, we might be getting the tone wrong or not doing it with the proper nuance. That humility causes us to come into our conversation in a posture that's receptive to dialogue, right? Uh, and so I think just to take Facebook as an example, the algorithms working behind Facebook, you know, these powerful algorithms, they know what you like, what you interact with. Even if you hover over a post, they know that that content engages you. And so little by little, they're going to feed you more of that content, more of that content. So here's the big insight. The algorithms of Facebook are designed to lead us to the most extreme version of ourselves. All of us are being led to the most extreme version of ourselves without really knowing it. And so what we have is this giant confirmation bias that the more we use social media, the more we're seeing reflected to ourselves, the beliefs that we actually hold and the things that we, we think we know. And, and it gives us this false sense of pride that all of these news channels are saying what I agree with and missing the fact that they're all saying that because someone, some, some algorithm has sorted and now just showing you back a version of yourself that you've kind of taught it to do.
00:25:30
S1: And so it's a dangerous definition of what it means to live in an echo chamber. How do we get out of that? Well, maybe it's by meditating on the words of God. When we come back, we're going to talk a little bit about the words of God and also consider the role of silence and the effectiveness of communication, the power of listening, and so much more. I promise you, the best is yet to come. Don't change that dial. Next up on equipped with Chris Brooks. Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is prerecorded. While we won't be taking calls, we do want to connect with you on social media. Hey there folks. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. You know, we're always looking for ways to hook you up, to take care of you, to get good resources into your hands. Such is the case today. Ken Weitzman, AJ Swoboda has written a great book, Redeeming How We Talk. Those of you who want to order the book Redeeming How We Talk, you can do so at our website. Equip radio dot ORG. That's equipped radio dot ORG. Ken is my guest today. Ken, I want to just give another great quote from the book and it says this from Ellen Davis accurate speech about anything, and especially about God, is in fact, a rhythm of silence and speech, speaking and listening. The power of silence is something that we underestimate. Your co-author, A.J. talks about how important Mondays are for him, because these are days where he goes silent. Talk about the power of listening in conversation and silence.
00:27:14
S2: Boy. Yeah. Um, in the book, one of the parts that I love the most in redeeming how we talk is, is bringing in Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Henri Nouwen and putting their voices in juxtaposition, but they there's really such a powerful thought of, of understanding that when we run into community and we haven't stilled ourselves inside that our insecurity, our tension, our anxiety hasn't somehow been quieted in our conversation with God. In other words, if we can't handle solitude, then when we run into community, we're trying to, uh, stuff something into ourselves. We're trying to take something from others to resolve our own tension. So Bonhoeffer would argue that that until we still ourselves in solitude and allow God to do his work in our hearts, we're not coming to community with anything to offer. We're just looking to take. Uh, and Henri Nouwen would echo a lot of those same thoughts and just say that, that our loneliness, our existential loneliness in this world, that if we can't find connection with God first, uh, then we're not coming to others and looking to truly see them. We're only seeing our need. And so I think that rhythm keeps us from from getting too far out. That rhythm of speech and silence, that rhythm of solitude and community. So that when we enter into spaces, we're speaking the redemptive words. It's not simply being driven by our wants, wishes, and desires or the need that we're feeling, the ache inside from loneliness.
00:28:46
S1: You know, I think there's also something to be said about the amount of cross-cultural interaction we have today. I think more and more voluminous, voluminous, and, uh, more diverse interactions are happening than ever before in human history in a lot of ways, because of just ease of access to interact with people around the world, to assume that we can naturally speak effectively, communicate powerfully and intentionally across those cultural lines without listening more than we speak is, I think, a prideful and false assumption. And so just that alone. Every day I'm made more and more aware, Ken, of how much more listening I need to do and less talking and recognizing. There's so little I know about the way that others are experiencing this world. And, and even digging deeper into this whole thought of the, the, the speech of God and, and what he says and how we can echo that to others is really captivating to me. I really want to hear you talk a little bit more too, about this whole thought. And I quoted Psalm 19 and 14, and this helps me to kind of be mindful of at least one thought when it comes to when I talk. And that is, is, is my speech is the meditation of my heart. Is it pleasing and acceptable in the sight of the Lord? That's, that's one, uh, you know, person, obviously, I need to be very mindful of. But you also say in the book that we need to speak for the good of others. So, so it's almost like this whole thought of being unselfish in a way that we speak. And I'm not just speaking for me, I'm not just speaking to get stuff off of my proverbial chest, but I'm actually speaking to honor and glorify God. And I'm also speaking for the good of the community, the good of, of man. Is that really kind of the, the, uh, the boundaries of my speech to help to keep me safe?
00:30:53
S3: Yeah, there's definitely some boundaries.
00:30:54
S2: I don't think we think of our speech affecting or shaping the cultures that we're in as much as we should, right? That, that those cultures are always bending and twisting and growing and being shaped. And how we use our words is going to either reinforce or challenge your group of ten friends, your school, your city, um, this country. And so there's this opportunity to change the world with just our words. So if I tell people all the time that just because we can't fix the world doesn't mean we can't change the world. And God's looking for a few people that are still idealistic enough to believe that we can change the world. And, and so we're called to go out and change. But we we naturally think of our hands. If I say change the world to people, everyone immediately jumps up and starts thinking of, of going and starting nonprofits or some, some sort of entrepreneurial entrepreneurial ism or some service project or trip. I don't think we think of our words and God spoke the world into existence. He sent Jesus as the word, and that word was willing to sacrifice itself in a passive way in order to, to bring about this powerful change. Right? And then the Holy Spirit, which is a wind that comes and blows and, and moves in and through us and speaks. Uh, it'd be really interesting to grab a bunch of people and say, you know, let's go change the world, put your hands behind your back and and think about what that means. Can we do it with just our words? Uh, and I think that there's an incredible opportunity there. And I think that, that we've underestimated that. That's kind of, again, part of the heart that comes into this. And I think you said something really important that that there are there's a role for voices in this, not just for the most privileged, the most educated, the most rich to come and tell everyone else what they need to know. And so Paul talks about letting everybody have a chance to speak or a word. And I think we're waking up in the West in America and realizing how much there's a wealth of knowledge in Asia and Africa and Europe and South America with scholars, theologians, pastors, workers that have something to share or to teach us and that we need to walk into those rooms and spaces and allow ourselves to hear by refraining from thinking we have all the answers. It's the those that are poor in the eyes of the world that God has made rich in faith. In other words, the people that have the richest faith, uh, the thing that they can most teach us about faith are often the people that we don't let have a voice in the room.
00:33:29
S1: You know, and this, this kind of leads to another thought. Now you just said something that I think is critical and I don't want our listeners today to, to miss this. Number one, you said when we think about changing the world, don't just think of actions. Now you're not saying actions don't matter because they do matter, right? Um, but, but think of the power of words. But I want to add another thing that you talk about in the book that's so critical. It's not just the power of what we say, but it's also the power of what we don't say. The power of silence. Now this has to be contextualized. One of my former mentors, the late Chuck Colson, used to talk a lot about the sin of silence. So there is in the face of injustice, the sin of silence that far too many of us fall prey to. But you're talking about a different type of silence. You're talking about a silence that comes because we're honoring the voice of God, and we're listening for the voice of God. Maybe in prayer, maybe as we study God's Word, but also we're honoring the voice of God as he speaks through our neighbors, in particular, those who are raised in a, in a, in a, in a different culture, different socio economic setting. And so in some ways, can our silence in the audience of those who come from the developing world are silence. And the audience of those who come from the poorer socioeconomic classes is a way of honoring the fact that God does not just speak through the privileged. God does not just speak through the few or the wealthy, but he speaks through all people. So we if we're one of the ways we can actually change the world is through silence, isn't it?
00:35:11
S2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, picture a soccer team or picture a band. You know, if somebody hogs the ball the whole time, um, it's dysfunctional.
00:35:20
S1: It's the electric.
00:35:22
S2: The electric guitarist just keeps going off on his own solo the whole time. It's dysfunctional. And if I walk into a room and I've done this before and my my peer group has done this before, if we walk into spaces and just occupy all of the speaking because we think we have so much wisdom to bring that we're some some way bringing God to other people, missing the fact that God is already there and been working and working through others. If we don't take and pull ourselves back, we don't allow the song to become what it should the team to be, what it should, the chorus to be, what it should. Yeah.
00:36:00
S1: So. So there are ball hogs and there are conversational hogs, is what you're saying is that somebody, somebody could do that.
00:36:07
S2: And I'm guilty and I'm guilty.
00:36:08
S1: Of being. That's right, that's right. I think we all are. And that's why we need to be reminded of the words again in your book. On page 122, the words of of James, the brother of Jesus. Don't be quick with your mouth. Don't be hasty in your heart. So to utter anything before God, God is in heaven and you are on earth. So let your words be few. And we need to be mindful of that, that we are called to let our words be few, to listen and to embrace the power of silence and solitude. Not as in action, not as indifference, not as apathy, but as proactive, honoring, honoring of God and honoring of others. Let's talk about wisdom on the other side of this break. I think there's a lot that we can learn from Ken about wisdom and words, and I absolutely love this quote from Michael Novak, the late, great economist Michael Novak. Civilization is constituted by reasoned conversation. Civilized people are able to reason with one another. Barbarians club one another. Let's do less clubbing of one another and more reasoning together. Even the God of all creation says, come now, let us reason together. If God calls us to reason with him, we ought to be willing to reason with one another. How do we speak better words? Ken is going to tell us how to do that on the other side of this break. We'll be right back with more of equipped right after this. In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step in as an equipper. You're not just. Giving your monthly support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused and anxious culture, and you'll get exclusive resources and updates from us all year long. Join our team of monthly supporters today. Call (888) 644-4144 or visit equip radio.org. Navigating manhood comes with questions and thankfully, God's Word has answers. 72 questions and answers about life and becoming the man God designed you to be. Is a biblical guidebook that tackles the real questions young men face today about dating, identity, technology, pornography, faith, and so much more. You can request your copy or get one for someone you know with a gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Today's program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. Hey there folks. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm asking for you to consider doing me a favor, and that is to become a prayerful partner with us. We need your faithful intercessions. Uh, it is so important that we have an army of intercessors. Can you please pray for us? Uh, we'd also love to hear how we're impacting your life. It'd be great if you financially supported. But even if you can't, man, you have no idea how your words of encouragement take us so far. They become like wind beneath our wings. If you could please give us a call. Let us know how equipped is impacting your life. You can call the number 8886444144, that's 8886444144. My guest, Ken Weitzman, has coauthored a great book, Redeeming How We Talk. Discover how communication fuels our growth, shapes our relationships, and changes our lives. We're talking about this great book now, Ken. Uh, this is kind of the rapid fire round. So I got a couple questions, but we only have a few minutes to answer, so let's do the best we can. Why is it that when people hear words like reconciliation, uh, sympathizing with others, uh, connection to others that they so often they hear compromise?
00:40:32
S2: MM. Yeah. I think my, uh, my, my study and my understanding, my experience has been that the last hundred years in America with this fight between liberal, uh, and, and fundamentalist theology created a climate in which it was incredibly toxic. And there were, there were code words that that represented things. So if you talk too much about love, it must mean that you're not truly believing the Bible or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that he died for the sins of the world. And isn't that ironic that too much of the word love would would kind of create an anti Jesus reaction in people's minds that care about truth. And too much doctrine to other people meant that you were somehow disconnected from the problems of this world or society, that you were a hypocrite, that you were like the Pharisee, that you were turning a blind eye to the poor. And, and isn't it crazy that people that would care about truth would would miss the truths of the orphan, the widow, and the alien. But but when there's a fight like a boxing match in the middle of, of, uh, the rounds, you go to separate corners. And so any fight leads us to separate extremes, right? We don't sit in the middle of, of the boxing ring back to back. Um, so I think the last hundred years created, uh, these polar opposite extremes where we were really suspicious of, of different groups and different words. And I think we're trying to come out of that space. So I think there's been a lot of movement with millennials, what's called the justice generation, a lot of work in the area of theology of justice, that people that care about doctrine, theology don't have to be skittish around words like justice. So I'm really encouraged to see that, that in some, at least in some ways, this is changing.
00:42:17
S1: Yeah. I want to talk about what we can learn about Jesus's way of dealing with conflict, because if we're going to win back a broken world, it seems to me that we have to learn how to engage in controversial conversations in a healing way that does not leave the fruit of the spirit on the outside, is not devoid of love, joy, peace, patience, all of these things, including self-control. So what do we learn from Jesus's way of dealing with conflict, and how will that help us inside the church and as we interact with the watching world?
00:42:52
S2: Well, I think one of my favorite chapters in the book, if not my my favorite chapter is, I think chapter 11, which deals with Matthew 18, which, which I grew up as kind of a church discipline passage. This is the passage how we're going to punish the teenage girl that got pregnant and shame her. This is how we're going to push people out of the church that have done something morally wrong. How we're going to excommunicate them. And I was actually taught that you look for a healthy church that's going to preach the word rightly, that's going to administer the sacraments correctly, and it's going to practice church discipline. Those were the three things you looked for. And and I talk about how I, I woke up one day and said, that's really strange. Where did that come from? If Jesus says they're going to know you by your love, how come that's not one of the three? And how come punishment is. And I went back and found it in the Belgic confession, and that this is really something that has grown up alongside the Protestant church. And there was a context for it in reaction to the Catholic Church. They wanted to go back to Scripture. They wanted to do the sacraments differently. And and in the Renaissance era, there was a lot of licentiousness, and they wanted to disciple well and discipline and disciple Those two words are connected, aren't they? So there was a context for the Belgic confession in those three things. But but what's strange is over time we codified that as the North Star. And in doing so, we missed the fact that, no, a church is something that reflects the heart of Christ. A church is working towards the reconciliation of all things. It's a light to the world. And ultimately, um, when Matthew 18 says, let somebody be like the tax collector. How did Jesus treat the tax collector? Jesus called the tax collector back in God the Father ran after the prodigal son when the prodigal son turned and was open or receptive. And and, and we're not supposed to be pushing people outside the community if they choose their way out. That's one thing. But we're always trying to pull people back into healthy relationships. So our words are not one of punitive measures. Our words are one of exhortation. Maybe discipline, but always discipline that's trying to bring back to reconciliation.
00:45:03
S1: Absolutely, absolutely. That type of loving correction that heals and restores folks back into community. Man, this all starts not in the public, not on social media world, not in the public square. It starts with our marriages. It starts with our children. It starts in our homes. So let's speak more Redemptively let's know that God is watching. Let's make sure our words are not filled with evil things, but are actually seasoned with grace and full of love. And I leave, uh, folks with this thought. Uh, this comes from your book. This is a quote from you guys. Uh, Ken, words are central to the calling of Christian faith ministry and witness with words we write, preach, and teach with words we lead, motivate, and inspire with words. We live out our vocation to love God and neighbor. Language is spiritual, and that's the reason why this book is so important. Redeeming how we talk. Hey Ken, tell AJ we said thanks. Appreciate you both and thank you for writing this book.
00:46:08
S2: Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me.
00:46:10
S1: Folks, you can learn more about Ken and about his work by going to our website, equip radio dot ORG. And again, I want you to take this conversation as seriously as any other interview that I've done. What good is right action? What good is right thoughts? What good is even right emotions and theology if we don't have right communication, right conversation with words, people believe and come to Christ. So never underestimate the power of words. Get your hands on a copy of Redeeming How We Talk and support the program as well at equip radio.org. Until we're together again, remember equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
