00:00:04
S1: Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip with Chris Brooks. I'm so thrilled that you've joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He has given it as a gift so that you and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well, today we're going to delve into a topic that will touch 100% of our lives. Every single one of us will experience, but yet many of us have either not thought deeply about it, or maybe even intentionally tried to avoid it. Today we're going to talk about how do we develop a faith that can survive and even thrive. The death of a loved one. So often, death will cause you to feel like you are in a spin cycle of life. It is disorienting. The Bible calls it the final or last enemy. It is something that, again, on our typical day, we'd like to be able to avoid. But as my mom used to always tell me that avoiding an issue doesn't make it go away. The reality of losing a loved one or losing a loved one is something that we will all experience. Really, the only question is do you have and have you invested in your faith in a way that allows you to survive and thrive that moment? Or do you not have a faith that allows you to survive and thrive in that moment? Many of you know that seven years ago, my wife and I walked through what we refer to as the season of the dark night of the soul of our spiritual journey. It was the death and loss of our son, Chris. Uh, it is, um, hard to believe that it's been seven years in this community equipped, uh, has been a major part of our healing journey. And so we're grateful for the many of you who have prayed for us and pointed us to resources that have made a difference, as well as the guests who have joined me to talk about how they have thought deeply about this topic biblically, theologically, and been able to point people to practical resources to help. And today, I want to continue that. I want to point you to a resource that I think is something that every single Christian should read. I don't say that lightly. I don't often say that a book should be required reading for Christians, but I do think that every single one of us needs to ask the question, what can death teach us about life? I'm so grateful to have my guest today with me, Whitney Pipkin. Uh, Whitney has written a book. We Shall All Be Changed. How? Facing death with Love, Loved ones, transforms us. Now, a little bit about Whitney. Whitney lives with her family in Northern Virginia. She's a long time member of Grace Bible Church, and she is the senior editor at Common Good Magazine and has previously written for The Washington Post, National Geographic, and NPR while on staff at the Chesapeake Bay Journal. Uh, she is someone who thinks deeply about the intersection of theology and life. And I'm going to be encouraging you to check out her website as well. You can find out more about Whitney at our website, equip radio.org. But today we're going to talk about her book. We shall all be changed. Hey, Whitney, how are you?
00:04:02
S2: Hey, Chris. I'm good. How are you?
00:04:03
S1: I am great, and I am so thankful for you joining us. Obviously, you're a journalist, you're a writer. And so I'm sure there's a lot of pieces that you've had to do professionally that maybe you didn't feel a unique or specific or intimate connection with and emotional connection with. It was kind of the job and you did it. But this book is different. This book is deeply personal. And I want to start by thanking you for writing a book that is not just practical, theological, biblical, but also very much vulnerable and, and intimate. So share with us a little bit about your mom's journey and how it impacted you and led to this book.
00:04:50
S2: Yeah. So my mom had cancer. She was first diagnosed when I was in the seventh grade. So. And she lived over 20 years with the cancer, more than 20 years. So it was kind of the backdrop, um, to my sister and my childhood. It's something we honestly were kind of running from, in my case, something I was not the one in the room when the needles came out. I'm like, I'll be in the hall. It was not something I wanted to face. Um, and yet that's what made it so ironic that I would write this and that I would, that the Lord would have me wrestle with him over, um, wrestle with him in the face of death. Was that I felt like the least likely candidate. I was the one that didn't want to go there with my mom and all of those years. And yet when death did come, um, in 2020, she, uh, it became this place of God's nearness. Um, which it says that it is in Psalm 23 that God is with us in the valley of the shadow of death.
00:05:47
S1: Yeah.
00:05:48
S2: But I was still surprised by the thin place that it Said it was by the just incredible sense of his presence and the sense that this is a place he wanted to meet with us and reveal himself to us in a unique way.
00:06:04
S1: Why is it important that this book was written not not just on a personal level, but what is your ultimate hope?
00:06:13
S2: Yeah. So I was 33 when my mom died, and I felt like I was among the first of my friends. And I remember how many choices I had to make about whether to get on the plane and go, whether to say yes to her trip to meet us, living far away. And for those who live in town, it's daily choices of, oh, am I going to show up for the appointment with them? How am I going to engage? And I my longing was for my friends to not stay away out of fear of what might happen there or kind of this sense with we have three young kids. At the time I had a new baby. The sense that it was in the way of the life that we were trying to lead over here, but to welcome death as it arrives in the lives of our loved ones, as passing through the fingers of God into our lives too. And that he intends and always has intended for us to live within the confines of Psalm 90. Um. Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom. So I wanted desperately to kind of convey that to my friends who was like, oh, my dad's kind of tough. I mean, he'll probably just go to a nursing home. You know, you hear people say these things and then walking through it knowing that really wanted to urge others to show up, even if they felt like the least likely candidate as I did, even if they felt unequipped to just be present and to watch what God might do in those spaces.
00:07:39
S1: The title of your book is a is a reference, uh, to first Corinthians 15. We are told that we shall all be changed, but talk about why you chose this title.
00:07:53
S2: Yeah. Uh, I mean, we know that our hope in Christ is an embodied hope, right? So it's not just that we die and we hope to be raised as some sort of spirits, but we we hope in a full resurrection, embodied resurrection. And I saw that hope come alive as my mom's body faded. And I saw and sensed her spirit come more alive to that truth. But I also was just surprised at how I walked away from that saying, like, I'll never be the same. Um, I want to live my life differently. And a lot of that has shaken out with kind of a theology of the body, which is what my next book is about. Um, but I, a lot of the things that are sold to a 30 some year old mom just no longer made sense to me. Um, and I, this theology of death really was a kind of a lived theology of suffering, something that I wanted to walk around with. Um, And so I felt, I felt that we have choices when we come to face death. We can run from it, which is what a lot of folks do. We can distract ourselves from it, or we can face it and really wrestle with God. Um, really come to find and meet the person of Christ who defeated death by going through it for us. And that is just such an integral part of the Christian life that I don't want anyone to miss out on. So it's not it's like the opposite of a self-help book. It's really funny to see how AI kind of summarizes books like this. Like you will, you know, five steps to a Better Life Through Death. Um, it's kind of ironic, but my hope is really that through facing death, we will then live our lives with those days numbered in mind. And I think that's how we're always supposed to live. And it's a good it's a good thing.
00:09:38
S1: One of the things I appreciate about your writing, and I just want to compliment you on, is that, um, you can tell when a person has been thoroughly shaped by Scripture and not everyone has. And not even everyone who has been in church and been a follower of Christ for many, many years have allowed the Word of God to really become their worldview and to. And the lens through which they see life. And all of us are being sanctified and growing in that. But yet I see that so clearly and evidently. And so scripture just kind of flows out of your heart, which I think is important to note. And, and it flows from your pen as well. But you were mentioning, even as you were talking about your mom made reference passing reference to second Corinthians 416, which simply says, we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. What does that verse mean to you and how did you see that play out in your mind?
00:10:47
S2: Yeah. So I have that verse taped next to my mirror in my bathroom as a reminder. I remember I'm going to get weepy. I remember being in the seventh grade like peak I in the center of the universe for little girls like I peak vanity and struggling with who am I and who do others think I am? And that was around the time, you know, I got to shave my mom's head because her hair had gotten sparse enough that that's what we needed to do. And I taped that verse under her mirror. Yeah. And so, you know, that really sobered me from the kind of trivialities of life. I mean, they still matter. It still matters how we present ourselves to one another and to ourselves. But I, I still struggle with those things. You know, now I'm I'm going to hit 40 next year and aging in my own right. And so to think of, you know, my mom was 41 And that meant something that that as our bodies fade and age, all of us are dying. Like aging is dying, right? Um, but we have the opportunity to either chase these ephemeral streams of youth and beauty that are fading or to replace and replace our hope in that future embodied reality of the resurrection. And that's just a a reminder. I need tape to my mirror. I mean, I need it constantly. And then that the way that that reminds me of the body of Christ, the way that that reminds me that Jesus stepped into this reality. Um, it, it just, it matters so hugely. We just had the stomach bug this week at my house, and to rub my five year old's back and say, Jesus knows what it's like to have a body that suffers like this. Um, he knows what it's like to be subject to every aspect of life in this fallen world and in this fallen body. Uh, and that just gives me such endurance, perseverance, Hope it's something I would really want all of us to live in light of and not wait to do that either.
00:12:52
S1: You know, there's so much to learn from Whitney's book, We Shall All Be Changed. I'm encouraging you to get your copy by going to our website, equip radio.org. One of the things, Whitney, I learned from your book as we prepare for our first break today, is that we have two hands. God has given us two hands for a reason, so that in one hand we can hold the hope of Christ. In another, we can hold the lament of death. Both are very, very real. Both are simultaneously true. But yet in Whitney's book, she brings it together in this powerful, wonderful, real, grounded in Scripture hope filled book. We shall all be changed. How facing death with loved ones transforms us. Go to our website. Order your copy at equip radio.org will be right back. Has your spiritual fire fizzled? You're not alone. Life's ups and downs can leave even faithful believers feeling like their passion for God has cooled. That's why I want to sing you a book called Three Kindled Heart by doctor Mark Yarbrough, president of Dallas Theological Seminary. It offers 60 essentials to help you fang your faith back into flame. We'll send you this valuable tool with your donation of any amount. To equip, call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks, my guest today, Whitney Pipkin. I want to encourage you to find out more about her writings. Uh, she's a journalist. She's written a phenomenal book, We Shall All Be Changed, a new book coming on The Theology of the body. I encourage you to find out more about Common Good Magazine as well, where she serves as Senior editor. You can go to equip.org. That's equip radio.org. We need to define some terms. Whitney. So if we could, what is a theology of death and why do we need it? You have referenced this several times. So what is it?
00:15:12
S2: Yeah. So I'm really helped by the big picture kind of meta narrative that we sometimes talk about with scripture and with theology. So this would be the four movements of scripture, of the story of the Bible. So creation, fall, redemption, consummation. And we can do those topically. So for death, we can look at what the story of death is at creation before it existed, the fall when death was ushered in redemption, when Jesus took on death and defeated it and consummation. When we look forward to sharing in his the fullness of his embodied resurrection in the life to come. And I think the ways that practically matters is it helps us have buckets to put our experience, our lived experience into the right part of the story. So when we get sick, if we think that we're supposed to have full resurrection hope and this body right now, then our we can be devastated by sickness, cancer, death, because our hope is for right now, sort of victory. But if we're able to place our hope and anchor it in that coming resurrection, then we can live with an already not yet kind of hope around in the face of death. Um, so that's been really helpful to place my, even my longing for that in the right buckets and to place sickness, for example, it's because of the fall. It's not because necessarily I did something wrong. And those kinds of things that are floating around in our broader culture. It gives us a better story to tell ourselves.
00:16:48
S1: Yeah, it's so good. And the other part of our theology, and I get this from systematic theology, is that our theology not only has to follow the, the, the story arc of redemptive history, it needs to be properly connected to what we believe in other areas, what we believe about the sovereignty of God, what we believe about anthropology, the make up constitution and theology of men, what we believe about the role of the church, ecclesiology, and so much more. And so I appreciate the fact that you continue to not only help us to answer the question, what does the Bible say about death? But you continue to push us to say, and how does this then connect to everything else that we believe. Um, I've referenced a few times throughout this conversation that you're a journalist. How did you, you being a journalist play into your approach in writing this book? Because this book is, is different than just say, uh, C.S. Lewis when he wrote his book on death or even Tim Challies, who I appreciate a friend of the program when he wrote his book On death. How is your approach unique?
00:18:03
S2: Yeah. So both of those and I would put limit for a son in that category by Wolterstorff. Um, are, were written kind of in that raw days after loss. Uh, whereas mine, I wrote down what happened, kind of the raw experience, like a long journal entry right after it happened, because I experienced some aspects of God showing up in his spirit that I was, I knew I would doubt later, I knew I would like disbelieve my own story. So I wrote that down. But really the meat of the book and weaving it all together. I did about a year later after my mom died. And that was as I was wrestling with, okay, I experienced this. How do I live? How do I keep going on? I think the journalistic part probably played in all these subtle ways, just the way that I kind of wrestle through nuances of a topic and okay, it's this, but also this and how do we hold the tension between these things? But also it was the fact that I had a job to do and I just wanted to cry. Um, there were times, not always, but there were just times where I felt like, okay. And especially the job of parenting felt particularly difficult. Um, the job of rejoicing over a new baby who was five months old and my mom died and it felt like, Lord, how do I do these things? Like how, how can I receive death as coming through your fingers into my life at this time where it feels like it should be about life? Um, it feels like we're supposed to enjoy our kids and enjoy this work that we've been given. So really, a lot of it was learning to tell, learning that kind of the tension points of that bigger story. And we can what surprised me then was how death hollows us out in this way that's unpleasant and uncomfortable, but it actually makes space, makes more room somehow for the fullness of life, for joy. The the emotions are heightened at both ends, often at the same time. So it's like this pendulum swing that's difficult. But if the alternative is to numb out and distract and not feel any of it, I certainly don't want that. And I think as as Christians, this is the hope we have to offer the world that would ask us and invite us regularly to numb out and be distracted. And here's a device and don't pay attention to what you're feeling. But Scripture. I mean, totally meets us at the pendulum swing of emotion. That's what we see in the Psalms. That's what we see in the books that you referenced. And so we can go back, you know, right away and lament with the Lord. We can go back a year later and wrestle with, okay, Lord, I thought you were this and this circumstance happened. And so how do I see you as you are not just through this hard thing that just happened, but in the fullness of what you're doing through this hard thing? So I think that's really where I was coming from as I wrote it.
00:20:59
S1: You know, I learned a number of terms from you in this book. What is chronic positivity?
00:21:09
S2: Yeah. Uh, okay. So you're in a conversation. Uh, and this is like, I'm gonna do the mom perspective. We're in a conversation and your kids were, um, like, one of your kids was sick all week, right? I guess I keep repeating the sickness because I've just lived this.
00:21:24
S1: Yeah. You're living it.
00:21:25
S2: And and you say, um, yeah, we had a, we had a rough week, but you know what? Johnny made the soccer team. So, and you do this thing where you feel the need to get out of the bad part or balance it out with the good. We do this sometimes in small groups. You're sharing prayer requests and you share something so devastating and you see everybody's faces fall. And that discomfort, we just it's why we say, but God is still good or something that kind of to relieve the discomfort. And it's also, I think, why people say the wrong things to someone who's grieving because we're uncomfortable with what they're sharing.
00:22:04
S1: Absolutely.
00:22:05
S2: And we haven't rehearsed enough what job's friends did in the first seven days, which was sit in the ash heap with him, which is what I would encourage all people walking alongside those with fresh loss to do. Just give the gift of your presence and not your words right away. Um, yeah, because that is it's interesting.
00:22:24
S1: Whitney. You know, we, um, like most churches, I'm a pastor and like most churches we are preparing for Easter. We are in lent season and it's a beautiful time. But one of the things every year that I find myself revisiting with our church family is the importance of not rushing past the crucifixion and our hurry to get to the resurrection. And I think it even affects the way that we approach Good Friday and Easter observations. Uh, there have been times when people have questioned maybe some, uh, with a hint of criticalness of saying, why is it that, um, yeah, Good Friday seems more reflective, less celebratory. And, and the answer is it's because we are meant to reflect deeply on the sufferings of our Savior. Yeah. To enter into the passion of the Christ and not to simply minimize it While we rush to the good parts, and I would imagine most of us. I'm guilty of this. Uh, Whitney, when I come to an uncomfortable or awkward scene in a movie, if I'm watching at home, I want to hit fast forward. Um, I want to jump that scene and get to a better scene. Uh, I don't like looking at the ugly parts of, uh, of a movie. Uh, my wife and I are a little bit different that way. Uh, her uncle was a doctor. Uh, she doesn't mind blood and amputation and all those things. I don't have the Constitution for it. And so we joke about the type of things we can watch. And, um, and yet I think for many of us, when it comes to these moments in life, maybe even a discussion like this, some may say, oh, Chris, I'll tune in tomorrow when you're talking about happier things. But the fact of the matter is, is that we have to be able to receive the ministry of the grace of Christ in suffering, in pain, in death, because he is with us there. And they are valuable aspects of his character, of his sovereignty, of his plan for us that we will miss if we rush by the uncomfortable parts, if we don't allow Christ to redeem the cemetery and we don't have a theology of death. And so I again, I am grateful that you have invited us to be there. Uh, Whitney says this in her book rather than wanting to run from discussions on death, as I did for so long, I see now that having a front row seat to my mom's final days have forever changed who I am and the ones I love. Listen, I want to encourage you to know that there is a sanctification and a glory that Whitney found in her journey with this. With her mom. And in the writing of this book that she wants you to experience as well, the goodness of God, even in death. I want you to find out more by going to our website, equip radio.org. You can order your copy of we shall all be changed there. I'll be right back right after this. Hey there friends. Welcome back to equip. I want to thank you for your partnership in the gospel. Your generosity has been amazing. The outpouring of prayer and financial support for this program, for this ministry has been absolutely incredible. We've been asking you for the last few weeks if you can consider being 1 in 100. What does that mean? Well, we're asking for 100 friends to consider giving a $1,000 gift. That will add fuel to the engine of this ministry, which is committed to reaching the next generation with the gospel, and to giving biblical and practical answers to the questions that our culture is asking about Jesus. And so if you are passionate about proclaiming that Jesus is Lord, the salvation is found in Christ alone, that the Bible is still God's Word and contains all truth. I would love for you to consider partnering with us with your most generous gift. And if you could be 1 in 100, that would be great today. There's two ways to go about doing that. Either a one time gift. Uh, but if you're in a position where you say, man, I would love to commit to being 1 in 100 standing with you today, but I can't do a one time gift. That's okay. A monthly option is another way of doing that. $83 a month over 12 months gets you to that goal of $1,000 just beyond that goal. And so I would encourage you, if you can go to our website, equip radio.org, that's equip radio.org. And I always say this, if you are new to the program, the podcast, and you are just beginning to listen, please feel no pressure at all to have to partner with us. Your listenership is gift enough, but if you have been blessed by the guests, the wisdom of the conversations, the resources that we have shared, if your heart has been ministered to through equip, stand with us today. Dial the number 8886444144, that's 8886444144. My guest today, Whitney Pipkin, has written a great book, we shall all Be changed. How facing death with loved ones transforms us. Whitney. We talked about chronic positivity before we went to break. Let's talk about maybe the opposite of that. And that is lament and why this is such a theologically informed part of the Christian life. What is lament?
00:28:44
S2: Yeah. Lament is talking to the Lord about what you're feeling. I think at its basic at its most basic definition. Whereas complaint would be talking about the Lord, talking about your circumstances to everyone within range lament, we say to God. Um, we often hold two things at the same time. Um, I believe you are good and you are whatever character quality I'm struggling with. But also this feels hard. This feels very not good. And we, um, we go to him. We we have lament is, uh, the Psalms are filled with laments. It's the most prevalent type of Psalm type of poetry in the Bible. And so we have these models throughout, but we can also write our own, pray our own. Um, I remember at one point in, uh, grief when, um, and you know, this, Chris, like when things feel like they're as hard as they could possibly get, and then the bottom falls out again and it's just some little thing like somebody something, you know, doesn't go well, you can't get into your doctor's appointment, whatever. And I remember praying that God would relent. Um, like, no, I can't do anymore. I'm at the end of my rope. And then I remember by his spirit, remembering that he had already relented, that the place we see prayers for him to relent are in the Old Testament, where God could still relent from his anger and did regularly from his wrath. But in Christ it's been poured out. And so I turned to him. Now, as one who has relented from what I deserve and who is still in charge of my days, and yet knows what it feels like to be stretched to the very limit of what's humanly possible. And to say, not my will, but yours be done even there.
00:30:40
S1: You know, as you talk, I think about again my own personal journey. And honestly, here I was when our son passed away. I had been pastoring at that point for over two decades. Um, and, uh, now approaching 30 years of pastoral ministry. And if you would have asked me, Whitney, Chris Brooks, do you have a theology of death? I would have said yes, and I would have commenced to quoting chapter and verse. Uh, but there's a difference between a lived theology, as you referred to earlier, and Any and embodied theology and one that is just simply intellectualized. And, and, and there are certain things that we can't do to manufacture that. There's other things that we can do. And that is, um, by entering into, um, the journey, uh, home, as I call it, the journey home with folks who are approaching that I have come to the place where I consider it a sweet privilege to be able to be by the side of people in my church family. Uh, people who I love deeply as they're approaching home is they're approaching Jesus and the full actualization of their faith. And I do think reading books like yours is another way that we prepare our hearts. But I'm going to encourage something maybe different than what most may be thinking. And that is, don't just read this book alone. I think that a small group is a perfect setting to have this to read this book, because then you can have discussion and you can hear how others have processed this journey. Again, 100% of us know and are acquainted with the loss of a loved one. And, and, and, and how the scriptures are forming people. So talk a little bit about that, Whitney. The value of maybe reading we shall all be changed in a group setting.
00:32:48
S2: Yeah. One of my favorite things has been getting to attend a book club where they've read it kind of coming in at the end and hearing their stories back, because ultimately what we're doing is we're testifying, we're sharing testimonies about God being there in the places we did not want to go, and yet we know we will, and we can share that hope of his presence with one another. So we're testifying to the ways that he showed up and to to be able to say, you know, I don't know if you can say it when you're really in the thick of it because you're just like, I really would like to move on from this feeling. Um, but to be able to look back just a few months later and to say, gosh, I didn't know that was God's presence, that shadow, that weight that I felt. Um, but I would not trade it. Uh, I would not wish I had stayed above it or outside of the pit because in that pit, he was there. And the verse that says that we fellowship in the sufferings of Christ. I think I just understood what that meant in a more experiential way that, oh, this is what it means to say like this ache, this feeling. You entered into this for me. Yes. Um, and, you know, you know what it's like to feel this and even more so you're, you know, that separation from the father on the cross, whatever that whatever that means theologically. Um, but he knows what it is to be separated from those we love. He knows what it is to weep at the grave of a friend, even though he knew he would raise Lazarus again. And so we lament death. We do it with one another, and we share stories. We share bread with with each other. Um, in, for those desert days when we, we felt like, how are we going to survive this? And when we're out of it, we say, this is, this is who God was to me there. Um, so it's just a beautiful thing and it's incredible. Like I lost my mom, which is a pretty kind of normative experience. Like we all hopefully if things go well, our parents die before us. And, uh, and yet to be able to testify and speak to a story that's so different from mine, the loss of a child, the loss of a spouse. Um, you know, it's just such a privilege. Um, but it's what God does when we testify that he was there and we say it to one another.
00:35:19
S1: You know, I was thinking about Psalm 90. I know Psalm 90 has meant much to you. Verse three of Psalm 90, you return man to the dust and say, return all children of men for a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday, when it is past, or as a watch in the night. You sweep them away with a flood. They are like a dream. Like grass that is renewed in the morning. In the morning it flourishes and is renewed. In the evening it fades and withers. For we are brought to an end by your anger, but your wrath by your wrath we are dismayed. You know, David is going in here and just really talking about this journey of death. And yet he concludes with the comfort of Christ. What are Psalms like this? Psalms like Psalm 90 meant to you.
00:36:11
S2: Yeah. So that one's actually written by Moses. Uh, and it's interesting because it's, he's been told he's not going to make it into the promised land. So he has his literal death sentence hanging over his head. And it's because of the wrath of God. It's because he messed up and hit the rock when he wasn't supposed to. Yes. Uh, which were like, oh, is that was that so bad? You know, we do. I mean, we do things in anger all the time. And yet that's what our, our anger deserves and merits before a holy God. And so he's just, he's seeing this boundary line fall in place. And then what's so shocking to me about that psalm is it ends with, therefore establish the work of our hands. Yes, establish the work of our hands. And he also prays for more, essentially more good days than bad days or the the good to outweigh the bad in the in the coming days. And I, I just we don't know. We not many of us will be given a death sentence, although that's one of the things cancer sometimes gives us is that literal. We know kind of how many days we have. But then to relate to God as one who. This is from you, right? We have to acknowledge the sovereignty of God in these places. And that's part of what makes it so hard, is that to be a Christian, it means that I'm saying you're in charge. And, um, you know, Bethany Barnard has a song where she says, who else am I supposed to be angry at? You're the one who calls the shots. And and that's lament. Um, it's it's going to God with these huge feelings we have. And then as we work our way through them to realize that we, we actually haven't gotten what we deserve. We've gotten far less and far and far more than we deserve. And, um, to be able to read that Psalm now this side of Christ and to know that he would put on, um, a body and that he would shorten his days to probably 33, um, that he would shorten his life span. And in so doing he would do the work that is required for our salvation. And so in light of that bigger story, God has great things for us to do, whatever our numbered days are. But I want to live in that tension with him of I will not live forever. Therefore, today matters. I will not live forever. Therefore, teach me to number my days, that I may relate to you in them and not act like some automated. You know I can do all things myself, right? It's only through him that we live and move and have our breath.
00:38:44
S1: This book is a companion, a friend, a trove of wisdom and understanding. It's for those who are caring for the sick and dying, and for those who will one day face death themselves. How do we develop a faith that can survive and thrive, even death? Uh, that's what Whitney's book is all about. That's why I highly encourage you to get a copy for yourself and for those you love as well. Go to our website, equip radio.org. This is our final break. Don't go anywhere. I promise you much more to come. Next up on equipped with Chris Brooks. In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused and anxious culture. And you'll get exclusive resources and updates from us all year long. Join our team of monthly supporters today! Call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. So grateful for Whitney Pipkin and her book, We Shall All Be Changed. Uh, Lydia Brownback says this no resource has provided more comfort and clear insight into my own battle with grief. Maybe you know what it's like to walk through grief, and maybe the resources have been few and far in between. Let me recommend one that you will thank me for later. We shall all be changed. How facing death with loved ones transforms us. I hope that you will pick up your copy today by going to our website, equip radio.org. That's equip radio.org. All right. We only have a few moments left, Whitney, but I would love for you to explain what is koinonia and how do we experience koinonia in the midst of death and dying?
00:41:07
S2: Yeah. So it's fellowship would be the the main way we translate that into English. Although every Greek word has this like fuller meaning that we can't quite get at. Uh, what's surprising is that Scripture says we can fellowship koinonia in the sufferings of Christ, and that that's a thing, a privilege, something we want to do. Um, for me, that has looked like the ways that grief is so personal and individualized, even you and your wife, I'm sure, grieve differently. Uh, me and my sister grieved our mom differently. Yeah. And the ways that, that spins us off in these individual silos of grief and the loneliness of that. And then to meet the person of Christ when, um, you feel like this is an experience no one in the world knows what I'm feeling at this moment, in this way. And to know that he does, um, and that he, he chose to no. To embody a French. As the French language has two words for no. There's one that's like to know experientially and one to know in your brain. To know mentally. And so Jesus, by having a body knows experientially what it is to suffer. And he knows what it is to go through loss and separation from those that he loves. And so it's just incredible that, um, it's indescribable. I would say that feeling of knowing that Christ is with us in our grief. Um, it's worth going there just for that. I would say not that we have a choice, but if you're going to go there, go there with God because he is near in the valley of the shadow of death.
00:42:52
S1: As you think about those who you would hope to pick up the book, you would hope to read it. One group that I think of are pastors. If you had a room Whitney full of, let's just say, 50 pastors captive audience. You were doing a workshop on your book. What would you want us as pastors and shepherds to know about how we can better approach this topic and death and dying with our congregations?
00:43:23
S2: Yeah. Uh, so for pastors, I mean, you are asked to produce kind of on a weekly basis, a sermon perhaps, or you feel this work based pressure to show up and be productive in ways that the congregation can see and feel and notice. So the surprising advice I would give you is that when grief pops up in your own life, um, to give it the space that it requires, because that's going to model so much to your congregation. Uh, one of my pastors, his dad died the same day as my mom a year later. And, um, to see and to know that God was going to make him a better minister to all of us through meeting him there and to know that, you know, whatever he needed, the space that he needed to do that was worth was worth it in the long run for how we were going to benefit from the ways that grief was going to soften him. And I already had I mean, I have both of my pastors have been through losses of various types. And I now, through writing this, see how hugely that's shaped them, how much better that's made them at empathizing and coming alongside those who are suffering in lowercase s and capital S ways. And so I would say to welcome those things as from and through the fingers of God to shape you into a better shepherd.
00:44:44
S1: As we close, I would love to just say a word about counseling. I know it was very helpful for me to have a biblical counselor, Christian counselor who understood grief that could help me and my wife. You referenced about your sister and you grieving differently. My wife and I grieve very differently. And that could easily become a tension point. I credit my counselor for helping us to find grace for one another. With about 60s left. What do you want to say about that ministry?
00:45:16
S2: Yeah. I mean, it's huge that they get to be to put skin on the idea that God is with us and that what we're feeling is worth facing and, um, and dealing with and that there is no fast forward button. I mean, I wanted one so bad, but I had a counselor tell me in the midst of that, um, what if God's inviting you to be still and deal with what comes up? Um, and so that was huge. Journaling through that was huge. But we need one another and there's no way through without one another. And that's also by design.
00:45:53
S1: Well, you've given us a gift and so many have endorsed your book and I'm grateful to be able to add my endorsement and to highlight this book for our listeners. Uh, thank you for being honest, being vulnerable. But more importantly, thank you for pointing us to the hope of Christ and to our Savior. Uh, through it all, I appreciate you. Whitney. Thank you for joining me today.
00:46:20
S2: Yeah. Thank you so much, Chris.
00:46:22
S1: Friends, I want to encourage you to get your copy. Go to our website again, equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. And maybe again, you can get your friends together and read the book. We shall all be changed. Thank you again for listening today. I can't wait till we're together again next time. Until then, as always, remember equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip with Chris Brooks. I'm so thrilled that you've joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He has given it as a gift so that you and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Well, today we're going to delve into a topic that will touch 100% of our lives. Every single one of us will experience, but yet many of us have either not thought deeply about it, or maybe even intentionally tried to avoid it. Today we're going to talk about how do we develop a faith that can survive and even thrive. The death of a loved one. So often, death will cause you to feel like you are in a spin cycle of life. It is disorienting. The Bible calls it the final or last enemy. It is something that, again, on our typical day, we'd like to be able to avoid. But as my mom used to always tell me that avoiding an issue doesn't make it go away. The reality of losing a loved one or losing a loved one is something that we will all experience. Really, the only question is do you have and have you invested in your faith in a way that allows you to survive and thrive that moment? Or do you not have a faith that allows you to survive and thrive in that moment? Many of you know that seven years ago, my wife and I walked through what we refer to as the season of the dark night of the soul of our spiritual journey. It was the death and loss of our son, Chris. Uh, it is, um, hard to believe that it's been seven years in this community equipped, uh, has been a major part of our healing journey. And so we're grateful for the many of you who have prayed for us and pointed us to resources that have made a difference, as well as the guests who have joined me to talk about how they have thought deeply about this topic biblically, theologically, and been able to point people to practical resources to help. And today, I want to continue that. I want to point you to a resource that I think is something that every single Christian should read. I don't say that lightly. I don't often say that a book should be required reading for Christians, but I do think that every single one of us needs to ask the question, what can death teach us about life? I'm so grateful to have my guest today with me, Whitney Pipkin. Uh, Whitney has written a book. We Shall All Be Changed. How? Facing death with Love, Loved ones, transforms us. Now, a little bit about Whitney. Whitney lives with her family in Northern Virginia. She's a long time member of Grace Bible Church, and she is the senior editor at Common Good Magazine and has previously written for The Washington Post, National Geographic, and NPR while on staff at the Chesapeake Bay Journal. Uh, she is someone who thinks deeply about the intersection of theology and life. And I'm going to be encouraging you to check out her website as well. You can find out more about Whitney at our website, equip radio.org. But today we're going to talk about her book. We shall all be changed. Hey, Whitney, how are you?
00:04:02
S2: Hey, Chris. I'm good. How are you?
00:04:03
S1: I am great, and I am so thankful for you joining us. Obviously, you're a journalist, you're a writer. And so I'm sure there's a lot of pieces that you've had to do professionally that maybe you didn't feel a unique or specific or intimate connection with and emotional connection with. It was kind of the job and you did it. But this book is different. This book is deeply personal. And I want to start by thanking you for writing a book that is not just practical, theological, biblical, but also very much vulnerable and, and intimate. So share with us a little bit about your mom's journey and how it impacted you and led to this book.
00:04:50
S2: Yeah. So my mom had cancer. She was first diagnosed when I was in the seventh grade. So. And she lived over 20 years with the cancer, more than 20 years. So it was kind of the backdrop, um, to my sister and my childhood. It's something we honestly were kind of running from, in my case, something I was not the one in the room when the needles came out. I'm like, I'll be in the hall. It was not something I wanted to face. Um, and yet that's what made it so ironic that I would write this and that I would, that the Lord would have me wrestle with him over, um, wrestle with him in the face of death. Was that I felt like the least likely candidate. I was the one that didn't want to go there with my mom and all of those years. And yet when death did come, um, in 2020, she, uh, it became this place of God's nearness. Um, which it says that it is in Psalm 23 that God is with us in the valley of the shadow of death.
00:05:47
S1: Yeah.
00:05:48
S2: But I was still surprised by the thin place that it Said it was by the just incredible sense of his presence and the sense that this is a place he wanted to meet with us and reveal himself to us in a unique way.
00:06:04
S1: Why is it important that this book was written not not just on a personal level, but what is your ultimate hope?
00:06:13
S2: Yeah. So I was 33 when my mom died, and I felt like I was among the first of my friends. And I remember how many choices I had to make about whether to get on the plane and go, whether to say yes to her trip to meet us, living far away. And for those who live in town, it's daily choices of, oh, am I going to show up for the appointment with them? How am I going to engage? And I my longing was for my friends to not stay away out of fear of what might happen there or kind of this sense with we have three young kids. At the time I had a new baby. The sense that it was in the way of the life that we were trying to lead over here, but to welcome death as it arrives in the lives of our loved ones, as passing through the fingers of God into our lives too. And that he intends and always has intended for us to live within the confines of Psalm 90. Um. Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a heart of wisdom. So I wanted desperately to kind of convey that to my friends who was like, oh, my dad's kind of tough. I mean, he'll probably just go to a nursing home. You know, you hear people say these things and then walking through it knowing that really wanted to urge others to show up, even if they felt like the least likely candidate as I did, even if they felt unequipped to just be present and to watch what God might do in those spaces.
00:07:39
S1: The title of your book is a is a reference, uh, to first Corinthians 15. We are told that we shall all be changed, but talk about why you chose this title.
00:07:53
S2: Yeah. Uh, I mean, we know that our hope in Christ is an embodied hope, right? So it's not just that we die and we hope to be raised as some sort of spirits, but we we hope in a full resurrection, embodied resurrection. And I saw that hope come alive as my mom's body faded. And I saw and sensed her spirit come more alive to that truth. But I also was just surprised at how I walked away from that saying, like, I'll never be the same. Um, I want to live my life differently. And a lot of that has shaken out with kind of a theology of the body, which is what my next book is about. Um, but I, a lot of the things that are sold to a 30 some year old mom just no longer made sense to me. Um, and I, this theology of death really was a kind of a lived theology of suffering, something that I wanted to walk around with. Um, And so I felt, I felt that we have choices when we come to face death. We can run from it, which is what a lot of folks do. We can distract ourselves from it, or we can face it and really wrestle with God. Um, really come to find and meet the person of Christ who defeated death by going through it for us. And that is just such an integral part of the Christian life that I don't want anyone to miss out on. So it's not it's like the opposite of a self-help book. It's really funny to see how AI kind of summarizes books like this. Like you will, you know, five steps to a Better Life Through Death. Um, it's kind of ironic, but my hope is really that through facing death, we will then live our lives with those days numbered in mind. And I think that's how we're always supposed to live. And it's a good it's a good thing.
00:09:38
S1: One of the things I appreciate about your writing, and I just want to compliment you on, is that, um, you can tell when a person has been thoroughly shaped by Scripture and not everyone has. And not even everyone who has been in church and been a follower of Christ for many, many years have allowed the Word of God to really become their worldview and to. And the lens through which they see life. And all of us are being sanctified and growing in that. But yet I see that so clearly and evidently. And so scripture just kind of flows out of your heart, which I think is important to note. And, and it flows from your pen as well. But you were mentioning, even as you were talking about your mom made reference passing reference to second Corinthians 416, which simply says, we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. What does that verse mean to you and how did you see that play out in your mind?
00:10:47
S2: Yeah. So I have that verse taped next to my mirror in my bathroom as a reminder. I remember I'm going to get weepy. I remember being in the seventh grade like peak I in the center of the universe for little girls like I peak vanity and struggling with who am I and who do others think I am? And that was around the time, you know, I got to shave my mom's head because her hair had gotten sparse enough that that's what we needed to do. And I taped that verse under her mirror. Yeah. And so, you know, that really sobered me from the kind of trivialities of life. I mean, they still matter. It still matters how we present ourselves to one another and to ourselves. But I, I still struggle with those things. You know, now I'm I'm going to hit 40 next year and aging in my own right. And so to think of, you know, my mom was 41 And that meant something that that as our bodies fade and age, all of us are dying. Like aging is dying, right? Um, but we have the opportunity to either chase these ephemeral streams of youth and beauty that are fading or to replace and replace our hope in that future embodied reality of the resurrection. And that's just a a reminder. I need tape to my mirror. I mean, I need it constantly. And then that the way that that reminds me of the body of Christ, the way that that reminds me that Jesus stepped into this reality. Um, it, it just, it matters so hugely. We just had the stomach bug this week at my house, and to rub my five year old's back and say, Jesus knows what it's like to have a body that suffers like this. Um, he knows what it's like to be subject to every aspect of life in this fallen world and in this fallen body. Uh, and that just gives me such endurance, perseverance, Hope it's something I would really want all of us to live in light of and not wait to do that either.
00:12:52
S1: You know, there's so much to learn from Whitney's book, We Shall All Be Changed. I'm encouraging you to get your copy by going to our website, equip radio.org. One of the things, Whitney, I learned from your book as we prepare for our first break today, is that we have two hands. God has given us two hands for a reason, so that in one hand we can hold the hope of Christ. In another, we can hold the lament of death. Both are very, very real. Both are simultaneously true. But yet in Whitney's book, she brings it together in this powerful, wonderful, real, grounded in Scripture hope filled book. We shall all be changed. How facing death with loved ones transforms us. Go to our website. Order your copy at equip radio.org will be right back. Has your spiritual fire fizzled? You're not alone. Life's ups and downs can leave even faithful believers feeling like their passion for God has cooled. That's why I want to sing you a book called Three Kindled Heart by doctor Mark Yarbrough, president of Dallas Theological Seminary. It offers 60 essentials to help you fang your faith back into flame. We'll send you this valuable tool with your donation of any amount. To equip, call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks, my guest today, Whitney Pipkin. I want to encourage you to find out more about her writings. Uh, she's a journalist. She's written a phenomenal book, We Shall All Be Changed, a new book coming on The Theology of the body. I encourage you to find out more about Common Good Magazine as well, where she serves as Senior editor. You can go to equip.org. That's equip radio.org. We need to define some terms. Whitney. So if we could, what is a theology of death and why do we need it? You have referenced this several times. So what is it?
00:15:12
S2: Yeah. So I'm really helped by the big picture kind of meta narrative that we sometimes talk about with scripture and with theology. So this would be the four movements of scripture, of the story of the Bible. So creation, fall, redemption, consummation. And we can do those topically. So for death, we can look at what the story of death is at creation before it existed, the fall when death was ushered in redemption, when Jesus took on death and defeated it and consummation. When we look forward to sharing in his the fullness of his embodied resurrection in the life to come. And I think the ways that practically matters is it helps us have buckets to put our experience, our lived experience into the right part of the story. So when we get sick, if we think that we're supposed to have full resurrection hope and this body right now, then our we can be devastated by sickness, cancer, death, because our hope is for right now, sort of victory. But if we're able to place our hope and anchor it in that coming resurrection, then we can live with an already not yet kind of hope around in the face of death. Um, so that's been really helpful to place my, even my longing for that in the right buckets and to place sickness, for example, it's because of the fall. It's not because necessarily I did something wrong. And those kinds of things that are floating around in our broader culture. It gives us a better story to tell ourselves.
00:16:48
S1: Yeah, it's so good. And the other part of our theology, and I get this from systematic theology, is that our theology not only has to follow the, the, the story arc of redemptive history, it needs to be properly connected to what we believe in other areas, what we believe about the sovereignty of God, what we believe about anthropology, the make up constitution and theology of men, what we believe about the role of the church, ecclesiology, and so much more. And so I appreciate the fact that you continue to not only help us to answer the question, what does the Bible say about death? But you continue to push us to say, and how does this then connect to everything else that we believe. Um, I've referenced a few times throughout this conversation that you're a journalist. How did you, you being a journalist play into your approach in writing this book? Because this book is, is different than just say, uh, C.S. Lewis when he wrote his book on death or even Tim Challies, who I appreciate a friend of the program when he wrote his book On death. How is your approach unique?
00:18:03
S2: Yeah. So both of those and I would put limit for a son in that category by Wolterstorff. Um, are, were written kind of in that raw days after loss. Uh, whereas mine, I wrote down what happened, kind of the raw experience, like a long journal entry right after it happened, because I experienced some aspects of God showing up in his spirit that I was, I knew I would doubt later, I knew I would like disbelieve my own story. So I wrote that down. But really the meat of the book and weaving it all together. I did about a year later after my mom died. And that was as I was wrestling with, okay, I experienced this. How do I live? How do I keep going on? I think the journalistic part probably played in all these subtle ways, just the way that I kind of wrestle through nuances of a topic and okay, it's this, but also this and how do we hold the tension between these things? But also it was the fact that I had a job to do and I just wanted to cry. Um, there were times, not always, but there were just times where I felt like, okay. And especially the job of parenting felt particularly difficult. Um, the job of rejoicing over a new baby who was five months old and my mom died and it felt like, Lord, how do I do these things? Like how, how can I receive death as coming through your fingers into my life at this time where it feels like it should be about life? Um, it feels like we're supposed to enjoy our kids and enjoy this work that we've been given. So really, a lot of it was learning to tell, learning that kind of the tension points of that bigger story. And we can what surprised me then was how death hollows us out in this way that's unpleasant and uncomfortable, but it actually makes space, makes more room somehow for the fullness of life, for joy. The the emotions are heightened at both ends, often at the same time. So it's like this pendulum swing that's difficult. But if the alternative is to numb out and distract and not feel any of it, I certainly don't want that. And I think as as Christians, this is the hope we have to offer the world that would ask us and invite us regularly to numb out and be distracted. And here's a device and don't pay attention to what you're feeling. But Scripture. I mean, totally meets us at the pendulum swing of emotion. That's what we see in the Psalms. That's what we see in the books that you referenced. And so we can go back, you know, right away and lament with the Lord. We can go back a year later and wrestle with, okay, Lord, I thought you were this and this circumstance happened. And so how do I see you as you are not just through this hard thing that just happened, but in the fullness of what you're doing through this hard thing? So I think that's really where I was coming from as I wrote it.
00:20:59
S1: You know, I learned a number of terms from you in this book. What is chronic positivity?
00:21:09
S2: Yeah. Uh, okay. So you're in a conversation. Uh, and this is like, I'm gonna do the mom perspective. We're in a conversation and your kids were, um, like, one of your kids was sick all week, right? I guess I keep repeating the sickness because I've just lived this.
00:21:24
S1: Yeah. You're living it.
00:21:25
S2: And and you say, um, yeah, we had a, we had a rough week, but you know what? Johnny made the soccer team. So, and you do this thing where you feel the need to get out of the bad part or balance it out with the good. We do this sometimes in small groups. You're sharing prayer requests and you share something so devastating and you see everybody's faces fall. And that discomfort, we just it's why we say, but God is still good or something that kind of to relieve the discomfort. And it's also, I think, why people say the wrong things to someone who's grieving because we're uncomfortable with what they're sharing.
00:22:04
S1: Absolutely.
00:22:05
S2: And we haven't rehearsed enough what job's friends did in the first seven days, which was sit in the ash heap with him, which is what I would encourage all people walking alongside those with fresh loss to do. Just give the gift of your presence and not your words right away. Um, yeah, because that is it's interesting.
00:22:24
S1: Whitney. You know, we, um, like most churches, I'm a pastor and like most churches we are preparing for Easter. We are in lent season and it's a beautiful time. But one of the things every year that I find myself revisiting with our church family is the importance of not rushing past the crucifixion and our hurry to get to the resurrection. And I think it even affects the way that we approach Good Friday and Easter observations. Uh, there have been times when people have questioned maybe some, uh, with a hint of criticalness of saying, why is it that, um, yeah, Good Friday seems more reflective, less celebratory. And, and the answer is it's because we are meant to reflect deeply on the sufferings of our Savior. Yeah. To enter into the passion of the Christ and not to simply minimize it While we rush to the good parts, and I would imagine most of us. I'm guilty of this. Uh, Whitney, when I come to an uncomfortable or awkward scene in a movie, if I'm watching at home, I want to hit fast forward. Um, I want to jump that scene and get to a better scene. Uh, I don't like looking at the ugly parts of, uh, of a movie. Uh, my wife and I are a little bit different that way. Uh, her uncle was a doctor. Uh, she doesn't mind blood and amputation and all those things. I don't have the Constitution for it. And so we joke about the type of things we can watch. And, um, and yet I think for many of us, when it comes to these moments in life, maybe even a discussion like this, some may say, oh, Chris, I'll tune in tomorrow when you're talking about happier things. But the fact of the matter is, is that we have to be able to receive the ministry of the grace of Christ in suffering, in pain, in death, because he is with us there. And they are valuable aspects of his character, of his sovereignty, of his plan for us that we will miss if we rush by the uncomfortable parts, if we don't allow Christ to redeem the cemetery and we don't have a theology of death. And so I again, I am grateful that you have invited us to be there. Uh, Whitney says this in her book rather than wanting to run from discussions on death, as I did for so long, I see now that having a front row seat to my mom's final days have forever changed who I am and the ones I love. Listen, I want to encourage you to know that there is a sanctification and a glory that Whitney found in her journey with this. With her mom. And in the writing of this book that she wants you to experience as well, the goodness of God, even in death. I want you to find out more by going to our website, equip radio.org. You can order your copy of we shall all be changed there. I'll be right back right after this. Hey there friends. Welcome back to equip. I want to thank you for your partnership in the gospel. Your generosity has been amazing. The outpouring of prayer and financial support for this program, for this ministry has been absolutely incredible. We've been asking you for the last few weeks if you can consider being 1 in 100. What does that mean? Well, we're asking for 100 friends to consider giving a $1,000 gift. That will add fuel to the engine of this ministry, which is committed to reaching the next generation with the gospel, and to giving biblical and practical answers to the questions that our culture is asking about Jesus. And so if you are passionate about proclaiming that Jesus is Lord, the salvation is found in Christ alone, that the Bible is still God's Word and contains all truth. I would love for you to consider partnering with us with your most generous gift. And if you could be 1 in 100, that would be great today. There's two ways to go about doing that. Either a one time gift. Uh, but if you're in a position where you say, man, I would love to commit to being 1 in 100 standing with you today, but I can't do a one time gift. That's okay. A monthly option is another way of doing that. $83 a month over 12 months gets you to that goal of $1,000 just beyond that goal. And so I would encourage you, if you can go to our website, equip radio.org, that's equip radio.org. And I always say this, if you are new to the program, the podcast, and you are just beginning to listen, please feel no pressure at all to have to partner with us. Your listenership is gift enough, but if you have been blessed by the guests, the wisdom of the conversations, the resources that we have shared, if your heart has been ministered to through equip, stand with us today. Dial the number 8886444144, that's 8886444144. My guest today, Whitney Pipkin, has written a great book, we shall all Be changed. How facing death with loved ones transforms us. Whitney. We talked about chronic positivity before we went to break. Let's talk about maybe the opposite of that. And that is lament and why this is such a theologically informed part of the Christian life. What is lament?
00:28:44
S2: Yeah. Lament is talking to the Lord about what you're feeling. I think at its basic at its most basic definition. Whereas complaint would be talking about the Lord, talking about your circumstances to everyone within range lament, we say to God. Um, we often hold two things at the same time. Um, I believe you are good and you are whatever character quality I'm struggling with. But also this feels hard. This feels very not good. And we, um, we go to him. We we have lament is, uh, the Psalms are filled with laments. It's the most prevalent type of Psalm type of poetry in the Bible. And so we have these models throughout, but we can also write our own, pray our own. Um, I remember at one point in, uh, grief when, um, and you know, this, Chris, like when things feel like they're as hard as they could possibly get, and then the bottom falls out again and it's just some little thing like somebody something, you know, doesn't go well, you can't get into your doctor's appointment, whatever. And I remember praying that God would relent. Um, like, no, I can't do anymore. I'm at the end of my rope. And then I remember by his spirit, remembering that he had already relented, that the place we see prayers for him to relent are in the Old Testament, where God could still relent from his anger and did regularly from his wrath. But in Christ it's been poured out. And so I turned to him. Now, as one who has relented from what I deserve and who is still in charge of my days, and yet knows what it feels like to be stretched to the very limit of what's humanly possible. And to say, not my will, but yours be done even there.
00:30:40
S1: You know, as you talk, I think about again my own personal journey. And honestly, here I was when our son passed away. I had been pastoring at that point for over two decades. Um, and, uh, now approaching 30 years of pastoral ministry. And if you would have asked me, Whitney, Chris Brooks, do you have a theology of death? I would have said yes, and I would have commenced to quoting chapter and verse. Uh, but there's a difference between a lived theology, as you referred to earlier, and Any and embodied theology and one that is just simply intellectualized. And, and, and there are certain things that we can't do to manufacture that. There's other things that we can do. And that is, um, by entering into, um, the journey, uh, home, as I call it, the journey home with folks who are approaching that I have come to the place where I consider it a sweet privilege to be able to be by the side of people in my church family. Uh, people who I love deeply as they're approaching home is they're approaching Jesus and the full actualization of their faith. And I do think reading books like yours is another way that we prepare our hearts. But I'm going to encourage something maybe different than what most may be thinking. And that is, don't just read this book alone. I think that a small group is a perfect setting to have this to read this book, because then you can have discussion and you can hear how others have processed this journey. Again, 100% of us know and are acquainted with the loss of a loved one. And, and, and, and how the scriptures are forming people. So talk a little bit about that, Whitney. The value of maybe reading we shall all be changed in a group setting.
00:32:48
S2: Yeah. One of my favorite things has been getting to attend a book club where they've read it kind of coming in at the end and hearing their stories back, because ultimately what we're doing is we're testifying, we're sharing testimonies about God being there in the places we did not want to go, and yet we know we will, and we can share that hope of his presence with one another. So we're testifying to the ways that he showed up and to to be able to say, you know, I don't know if you can say it when you're really in the thick of it because you're just like, I really would like to move on from this feeling. Um, but to be able to look back just a few months later and to say, gosh, I didn't know that was God's presence, that shadow, that weight that I felt. Um, but I would not trade it. Uh, I would not wish I had stayed above it or outside of the pit because in that pit, he was there. And the verse that says that we fellowship in the sufferings of Christ. I think I just understood what that meant in a more experiential way that, oh, this is what it means to say like this ache, this feeling. You entered into this for me. Yes. Um, and, you know, you know what it's like to feel this and even more so you're, you know, that separation from the father on the cross, whatever that whatever that means theologically. Um, but he knows what it is to be separated from those we love. He knows what it is to weep at the grave of a friend, even though he knew he would raise Lazarus again. And so we lament death. We do it with one another, and we share stories. We share bread with with each other. Um, in, for those desert days when we, we felt like, how are we going to survive this? And when we're out of it, we say, this is, this is who God was to me there. Um, so it's just a beautiful thing and it's incredible. Like I lost my mom, which is a pretty kind of normative experience. Like we all hopefully if things go well, our parents die before us. And, uh, and yet to be able to testify and speak to a story that's so different from mine, the loss of a child, the loss of a spouse. Um, you know, it's just such a privilege. Um, but it's what God does when we testify that he was there and we say it to one another.
00:35:19
S1: You know, I was thinking about Psalm 90. I know Psalm 90 has meant much to you. Verse three of Psalm 90, you return man to the dust and say, return all children of men for a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday, when it is past, or as a watch in the night. You sweep them away with a flood. They are like a dream. Like grass that is renewed in the morning. In the morning it flourishes and is renewed. In the evening it fades and withers. For we are brought to an end by your anger, but your wrath by your wrath we are dismayed. You know, David is going in here and just really talking about this journey of death. And yet he concludes with the comfort of Christ. What are Psalms like this? Psalms like Psalm 90 meant to you.
00:36:11
S2: Yeah. So that one's actually written by Moses. Uh, and it's interesting because it's, he's been told he's not going to make it into the promised land. So he has his literal death sentence hanging over his head. And it's because of the wrath of God. It's because he messed up and hit the rock when he wasn't supposed to. Yes. Uh, which were like, oh, is that was that so bad? You know, we do. I mean, we do things in anger all the time. And yet that's what our, our anger deserves and merits before a holy God. And so he's just, he's seeing this boundary line fall in place. And then what's so shocking to me about that psalm is it ends with, therefore establish the work of our hands. Yes, establish the work of our hands. And he also prays for more, essentially more good days than bad days or the the good to outweigh the bad in the in the coming days. And I, I just we don't know. We not many of us will be given a death sentence, although that's one of the things cancer sometimes gives us is that literal. We know kind of how many days we have. But then to relate to God as one who. This is from you, right? We have to acknowledge the sovereignty of God in these places. And that's part of what makes it so hard, is that to be a Christian, it means that I'm saying you're in charge. And, um, you know, Bethany Barnard has a song where she says, who else am I supposed to be angry at? You're the one who calls the shots. And and that's lament. Um, it's it's going to God with these huge feelings we have. And then as we work our way through them to realize that we, we actually haven't gotten what we deserve. We've gotten far less and far and far more than we deserve. And, um, to be able to read that Psalm now this side of Christ and to know that he would put on, um, a body and that he would shorten his days to probably 33, um, that he would shorten his life span. And in so doing he would do the work that is required for our salvation. And so in light of that bigger story, God has great things for us to do, whatever our numbered days are. But I want to live in that tension with him of I will not live forever. Therefore, today matters. I will not live forever. Therefore, teach me to number my days, that I may relate to you in them and not act like some automated. You know I can do all things myself, right? It's only through him that we live and move and have our breath.
00:38:44
S1: This book is a companion, a friend, a trove of wisdom and understanding. It's for those who are caring for the sick and dying, and for those who will one day face death themselves. How do we develop a faith that can survive and thrive, even death? Uh, that's what Whitney's book is all about. That's why I highly encourage you to get a copy for yourself and for those you love as well. Go to our website, equip radio.org. This is our final break. Don't go anywhere. I promise you much more to come. Next up on equipped with Chris Brooks. In today's rapidly changing culture, Christians need solid biblical guidance more than ever. That's our mission here at Equip to provide biblical wisdom for life's toughest questions. When you step in as an equipper, you're not just giving your monthly support helps to offer clarity and hope to a confused and anxious culture. And you'll get exclusive resources and updates from us all year long. Join our team of monthly supporters today! Call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks. So grateful for Whitney Pipkin and her book, We Shall All Be Changed. Uh, Lydia Brownback says this no resource has provided more comfort and clear insight into my own battle with grief. Maybe you know what it's like to walk through grief, and maybe the resources have been few and far in between. Let me recommend one that you will thank me for later. We shall all be changed. How facing death with loved ones transforms us. I hope that you will pick up your copy today by going to our website, equip radio.org. That's equip radio.org. All right. We only have a few moments left, Whitney, but I would love for you to explain what is koinonia and how do we experience koinonia in the midst of death and dying?
00:41:07
S2: Yeah. So it's fellowship would be the the main way we translate that into English. Although every Greek word has this like fuller meaning that we can't quite get at. Uh, what's surprising is that Scripture says we can fellowship koinonia in the sufferings of Christ, and that that's a thing, a privilege, something we want to do. Um, for me, that has looked like the ways that grief is so personal and individualized, even you and your wife, I'm sure, grieve differently. Uh, me and my sister grieved our mom differently. Yeah. And the ways that, that spins us off in these individual silos of grief and the loneliness of that. And then to meet the person of Christ when, um, you feel like this is an experience no one in the world knows what I'm feeling at this moment, in this way. And to know that he does, um, and that he, he chose to no. To embody a French. As the French language has two words for no. There's one that's like to know experientially and one to know in your brain. To know mentally. And so Jesus, by having a body knows experientially what it is to suffer. And he knows what it is to go through loss and separation from those that he loves. And so it's just incredible that, um, it's indescribable. I would say that feeling of knowing that Christ is with us in our grief. Um, it's worth going there just for that. I would say not that we have a choice, but if you're going to go there, go there with God because he is near in the valley of the shadow of death.
00:42:52
S1: As you think about those who you would hope to pick up the book, you would hope to read it. One group that I think of are pastors. If you had a room Whitney full of, let's just say, 50 pastors captive audience. You were doing a workshop on your book. What would you want us as pastors and shepherds to know about how we can better approach this topic and death and dying with our congregations?
00:43:23
S2: Yeah. Uh, so for pastors, I mean, you are asked to produce kind of on a weekly basis, a sermon perhaps, or you feel this work based pressure to show up and be productive in ways that the congregation can see and feel and notice. So the surprising advice I would give you is that when grief pops up in your own life, um, to give it the space that it requires, because that's going to model so much to your congregation. Uh, one of my pastors, his dad died the same day as my mom a year later. And, um, to see and to know that God was going to make him a better minister to all of us through meeting him there and to know that, you know, whatever he needed, the space that he needed to do that was worth was worth it in the long run for how we were going to benefit from the ways that grief was going to soften him. And I already had I mean, I have both of my pastors have been through losses of various types. And I now, through writing this, see how hugely that's shaped them, how much better that's made them at empathizing and coming alongside those who are suffering in lowercase s and capital S ways. And so I would say to welcome those things as from and through the fingers of God to shape you into a better shepherd.
00:44:44
S1: As we close, I would love to just say a word about counseling. I know it was very helpful for me to have a biblical counselor, Christian counselor who understood grief that could help me and my wife. You referenced about your sister and you grieving differently. My wife and I grieve very differently. And that could easily become a tension point. I credit my counselor for helping us to find grace for one another. With about 60s left. What do you want to say about that ministry?
00:45:16
S2: Yeah. I mean, it's huge that they get to be to put skin on the idea that God is with us and that what we're feeling is worth facing and, um, and dealing with and that there is no fast forward button. I mean, I wanted one so bad, but I had a counselor tell me in the midst of that, um, what if God's inviting you to be still and deal with what comes up? Um, and so that was huge. Journaling through that was huge. But we need one another and there's no way through without one another. And that's also by design.
00:45:53
S1: Well, you've given us a gift and so many have endorsed your book and I'm grateful to be able to add my endorsement and to highlight this book for our listeners. Uh, thank you for being honest, being vulnerable. But more importantly, thank you for pointing us to the hope of Christ and to our Savior. Uh, through it all, I appreciate you. Whitney. Thank you for joining me today.
00:46:20
S2: Yeah. Thank you so much, Chris.
00:46:22
S1: Friends, I want to encourage you to get your copy. Go to our website again, equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. And maybe again, you can get your friends together and read the book. We shall all be changed. Thank you again for listening today. I can't wait till we're together again next time. Until then, as always, remember equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
