00:00:00
S1: Today's program has been prerecorded, so our phone lines are not open. Well hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm absolutely thrilled that you've joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He is giving it as a gift so that you and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice! What an amazing time of year it is for many of you as parents. Maybe you're getting excited about back to school time. Maybe your kids are as well. If you're a young adult and you're listening to this today, maybe it is a season of transition for you, uh, to college, to career. And in the midst of it all, I want you to know we're praying for you. We're praying for families. We're certainly praying for young adults who are embracing adulting in a whole new level. I got a daughter, many of you know, that's in college. And, and these are certainly a times where a whole wave of emotions hits you and you recognize the current cultural climate, uh, that is out there and what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ and all the complexities that come along with that. But just know that every day you can count on equip to remind you of the message of the gospel, the power of Christ at work in our lives, in and through his people. And just know we love to be your prayer partner. We count it a joy to come alongside of you on the journey and to be praying for you and your family. If there's any way that we can pray for you today and your family in this season, or if you're a young adult and you just need some encouragement, just know we're available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You can connect with us through all of our socials. You can find us at Equip Radio, equip Radio, and also feel free to reach out to us through our website at equip radio.org. That's equip radio.org. Well, today I want to talk about the church. You guys know how much I love the church. And if you love the church like me, you love the bride of Christ because of your love for Jesus. Uh, and any honest assessment leaves you deeply concerned about the state of the church. There seems to be a rise in secularism. There seems to be so many that find themselves disenchanted and deconstructing. That's kind of the new wave, if you will, of those who find themselves questioning, uh, the way that people are approaching their faith broadly. And so many are calling themselves ex evangelicals leaving, uh, the evangelical, uh, world and, and, uh, some leaving the faith altogether. Uh, while ministry leaders are rightfully concerned about all of that. And in the midst of it, so many are looking for solutions and looking for answers. And I would say this, that while I'm a firm believer that the Bible is right, that it works in every generation that we don't need, uh, we don't need to improve upon the gospel. Sadly, there's so much drift that's happening and our effort to try to innovate, if you will, to be attractional in a way that causes us to miss the heart of Jesus. And recently I came across a book that really, I feel like summarized and spoke to the moment we're living in. Uh, so well. And I wanted to introduce you to it. And for many of you to the author, uh, the name of the book is Editing Jesus Confronting the Distorted Faith of the American Church. The author is Rick Lawrence. He's the executive director of vibrant Faith. He's also a leader in a home church for young people, and I love to delve into that more. Rick has dedicated his life to helping people to live Jesus, Jesus centered lives, uh, to, uh, really resource them to know the heart of Jesus and not his recipes, to really allow his Word to shape their lives and to, and to love him deeply. And so today, I'm really excited to have Rick Lawrence with me. Rick, how are you, brother?
00:04:41
S2: I'm good. Chris, thanks so much for inviting me into your space here.
00:04:45
S1: Yeah. Talk a little bit for those who don't know about vibrant faith.
00:04:51
S2: So vibrant Faith was founded about 25 years ago by a pioneering researcher named Doctor Merton Stroman. He. He started. He launched an organization called Search Institute back in the day that was the precursor to all the sort of Christian focused research institutions that are prevalent today. Search Institute is still going on, but he, along the way planted a kind of an adjacent organization that the time was called the Youth and Family Institute, which really built to focus on a truth that the church, strangely, has had a hard time coming to grips with over the years, because it's really the way God is hardwired, uh, discipleship to work. It it moves through families primarily. It moves through parents. Now, all the research has backed up what we know theologically and what's true in the Bible. Um, and so Merton Stroman started this little organization to promote the inseparable relationship between church ministry and parents, helping equip parents to be, a primary influencers, which they already are in their home, but how to equip them to, to do that even better. And so we carry out that mission today. We changed the name about ten years ago to vibrant Faith. And we do resourcing, training, coaching, and research, all of it focused on equipping church ministry leaders to help parents step into this role fully. And we have, you know, we have a lot of particular focuses. One of them, since I've been the leader of this organization for four years, we have a sort of a core thread through everything we do that is about Jesus centeredness. So that that's kind of been woven into the the 25 year old threads of vibrant faith.
00:06:39
S1: You know, author of over 40 books, you have dedicated your life to really, um, caring, loving thinking, deeply resourcing the church as we just discussed. And now this book editing Jesus. You know, I, I recognize there's a cost to writing every book, a personal cost, a sacrifice that comes along with even telling the truth. And this book is so full of, uh, loving but challenging truth. Talk about the origin. What caused you to say I need to put pen to paper and write editing? Jesus.
00:07:17
S2: That's a great question. So about three years ago, I was invited by Jake Bland, who's the youngest president of youth for Christ in its history.
00:07:27
S1: Yeah.
00:07:28
S2: Yeah. Uh, and I had had a mentoring relationship with Jake several years prior. Uh, but then kind of out of the blue, he, he asked me if I would go on an hour long online Q&A during the pandemic with all of the American leaders for youth, for Christ. So hundreds and hundreds of them online. And he wanted to do an hour long Q&A with me toward the end of that Q&A, he asked me a question that I didn't really see coming. It made it. It made me pause, he said. Rick, given everything you've just said, what do you think is the greatest challenge facing the church today? Wow, that's a big question. I, I pause for a second and then I said, editing Jesus. And he said, okay, what do you mean by that? And, and I said, and then I spent about ten minutes describing what I meant by that. And after it was done, about ten minutes later, Jake texted me and said, oh my gosh, my text and my emails blowing up. There's so many people that want to know more about what you're talking about because it's resonate. It resonated with them, but they want more. So that planted this little seed where I, you know, just started talking to Jesus. Is this something you want me to go after? And so three years later, I have a book. So basically what I, what I explained in that ten minutes was that all of these surface reasons that we point to for the, the so-called decline of the church, I don't think it's a decline. It's a pruning. We could talk about that if you want, but but, um, all of the surface reasons we point to for that, um, are masking the real reason underneath all this, which is the church has shifted away from Jesus as he is and has adopted an edited version of him. And when that happens, God pulls out the gardening shears.
00:09:11
S1: We edit him before he can edit us. We recast his plot twist and sand down his obvious rough spots, making Jesus both safer and duller. This is what you write in your introduction. I found your introduction really, really interesting on a number of, uh, for a number of reasons. Let's just talk about two of them. First off, you do use the word pruning instead of decline. Why do you prefer pruning over decline when you talk about the current trajectory of the church?
00:09:47
S2: Right. So, um, uh, decline implies if you think about this, a decline implies that, oh, we have a problem in our business model here in the church, our marketing not right. Or we need to get our messaging right. You know, we need to be more attractional, uh, all of these things that, uh, that filter through the same language of business might use if it's, if it's struggling when and what it does is it, it subtly cuts out the agency of God. So what if what's happening in church right now is at the hand of God, not at the hand of market forces? If that's the case, and this has been the case throughout the history of the people of God, where he pulls out his pruning shears and the pruning of, let's say, a fruit tree, that the reason you prune a fruit tree is to spur its growth. But if you are that tree, the. The cutting is incredibly painful, and I work with church ministry leaders all over the country and have for more than three decades now, and they're in a lot of pain right now. In for a variety of reasons, in the midst of this, uh, uh, challenges and struggles they're facing in contemporary culture, they're in a lot of pain. And so it's, it's hard not to feel compassion and empathy for that. But if you stand back and think about this more broadly, um, I believe clearly God is, is, has got his shears out and he's clipping the church for the sake of new growth. That's always important to keep in mind of what he's really after. A master gardener has to prune a fruit tree in order for that tree to produce the kind of fruit it was meant to. And I believe that's the season we're in right now.
00:11:31
S1: Those aren't comfortable seasons at all. They're painful seasons. It's easy for us to read John 15 and to, uh, romanticize it or, or soften it. But as you Said that the pruning is always designed for more fruitfulness for us to produce fresh and new fruit. And so maybe there's a pastor or a leader who's listening to us to say and, and is saying in her own heart, Rick, that this is more than just a statistical reality for us. This is more than just research. This is our front living room. This is what we're going through right now. And if you are that pastor, if you are that leader, just know that I've invited Rick on for us. I think this is a family conversation. Certainly, there are those who are not a part of the Christian faith that are listening to us right now, have this conversation, and I hope you find it to be one that's honest, uh, about, you know, both our faults and flaws as well as what is good and, and true. But if you are a church leader, I want you to listen to what Rick has to say because I think that these areas in which he helps the church to see where we have edited Jesus can be plaguing our church now. And if it is. And if God and his love and grace has been pruning us and some hard ways, then maybe it's time for us to repent, to realign with God so the fire of revival can be reignited in our hearts for us to live Jesus centered and to see a new generation serving and loving him. We're going to talk more to Rick Lawrence after this break. Find out more at our website. Equip radio dot o, r g. Whatever you do, stick and stay. Much more to come right after this. When adult children pull away, parents are often left with grief and confusion and unanswered questions. But there is real hope for your family. Resolve conflict, and find peace and hope with adult Children by Kathy Cooke, gives parents a biblical tool and practical strategies to pursue peace and rebuild what's been lost. A copy can be yours today with a gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Chris Brookes here reminding you that today's program is prerecorded and we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. The book is editing Jesus. It's for church leaders for sure. But I would say for parents, for moms, dads, for those who are interested in particular for the next generation, who is wrestling with faith and relationship with Jesus and church. I think Rick has a lot to say to all of us. Find out more on our website. Equip radio.org. Rick, one of the things I respect about you is your willingness to listen to young people. And going back to the introduction of your book, you mentioned some of the feedback that you've been told by the young people who come to your home church as you label it. Um, describe that and what they've told you about the church and their struggle with it.
00:15:09
S2: Yeah. So, uh, kind of to loop back to a phrase you used in the, in the beginning as well, that this group started accidentally. It's a long story about how it got started, but, uh, ten years ago, and I've been leading it ever since, it's 2 or 3 dozen young people from five or 6 or 7 different churches in different schools all over the place, um, shifting lineup. But now they're, they're mostly college and post-college that are part of the group now. And our motto is pursuing the heart of Jesus, not his recipes. And that's a kind of a funny thing to go after. But what it means is that we're only concerned about drawing near experientially, conversationally, in a co-discovery environment. We're only concerned about drawing near to the heart of Jesus to experience and taste the beauty of his heart and the magnetism of who he is. We are totally unconcerned about life application. So that's kind of a shock sometimes when I say this to other people, like no life application. And the reason why is that Jesus maximized, uh, the, the way, the path of transformation by highlighting, abiding and remaining. And he does this in so many different ways. He's basically saying that your transformation comes from being closely attached to me. So that makes all of what we do, not just as ministry leaders, but just as people focused in on what, what, what does it mean to get closer to Jesus? How does that happen?
00:16:39
S1: And so yeah, let me let me just jump in real quickly because I think that there's so much that can be said about this. And I don't want to take us off on too far of a bunny rabbit trail, but I just want to say this, that one of my cautions to pastors and leaders is that so often the move in curriculums that are targeting kids and youth, Sunday school, youth group stuff is to principal the teachings of Jesus and to detach them from him as if that's what he desired, and as if we can be good people apart from regeneration, as if we can live the Christian life apart from Jesus. And we need to be very, very cautious about that. And we need to make sure that we are constantly monitoring. I can't tell you how many Sunday school curriculums or youth group curriculums that are out there. That and Rick, you'll know this. That will basically take, uh, some of the moral teachings of Jesus or, or, or tell people you need to be loving or kind or generous or whatever, and teach them as principles and recipes and maybe reference Jesus, but not centering it on having a relationship with him, with the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We can't be good apart from God. And, uh, I'm, I'm grateful for, for that. But I want to let you finish some of the feedback you heard from those young people.
00:18:14
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that first of all, that's incredibly well said Chris. It's exactly there's a whole chapter in the book called The Problem with Principles. And that, more than any other chapter in the book has, has generated a, a lot of hand-wringing, uh, in conversations I've had with people. So, uh, so you're just incredibly well said what you just said if Jesus is pointing us to what brings transformation, we just need to pay attention to that so that at the end of one of our times together, it's a two hour experience. So it's experiential, conversational, co-discovery we're all discovering together. I'm not preaching. I'm discovering with them, but I'm guiding them. Um, and I hear just the most remarkable, transformational, amazing things come out of their mouths. And it's an incredible experience. But at the end of one of those, I knew, because all along I hear these young people off and on talk about, uh, their, their struggles with the church, why they, why they're trying to persevere with the church through their struggles and sometimes why they've left. And so I just stopped and asked them, hey, could you just spend a few minutes telling me exactly what you have as a problem with the church right now? And they just kind of exploded and talked and I tried to capture what they were saying, and I put it in the introduction of my book. One of the comments that was said, I think, captures it really well. One of the one of the young people said that that the church is teaching things that aren't about Jesus. They're more like Ted talks. We don't want self-help. We want Jesus. So what he was, what they were trying to say is that they have a hunger for a relationship with Jesus. And what they're getting from the church is exactly how you just described, Chris, is they're taking the moral teachings of Jesus and turning them into try harder to get better principles. And that's, that's not feeding them. They have this deep longing for more than that. And these, these kids were articulate enough and, and had perspective enough to say, I know what we're getting. And it's not feeding me. Um, and I think the secondary thing is that in every aspect of a young person's life, in this contemporary culture, their voice matters. They have so many ways that they can make their voice matter. But when they walk into a church, very often their their voice doesn't matter. They're not part of the discovery. They're not respected. To try to discover with a leader what is the heart of Jesus? How. How does that impact my life? Um, they're just their voices are not part of the, um, the, the meat and potatoes of what's going on. And so they've been trained well that their voice doesn't matter. So it actually takes some time as a new person comes into our group for them to recognize, oh, they, they really, really want my voice here. And then they start to just unleash what they, what they see. And so that's what happens in the group.
00:21:23
S1: Wow. Wow. You use a number of terms throughout the book that I want to let you define. And then I want to get into these eight areas that you feel like we are editing. Jesus. Uh, let's talk about reverse engineering. What do you mean by that?
00:21:40
S2: So that's. I'm so glad you brought that up. So the book is it's a good way to describe the whole book. Reverse engineering means that we start with Jesus and work our way back into our lives, rather than start with our life and work our way toward Jesus. When we do it that way, we end up editing him because he doesn't fit with our pre-existing priorities, values, and norms. So, uh, if we're working from our story toward his story, then what we do is we shave off his edges or make a square peg round so it will fit. But if reverse engineering means that you start with Jesus and you accept that whatever Jesus says and does is good because he's the source of all goodness. He's not just pointing toward goodness. He's its very source. He's the definition of goodness. So if you accept that and then work backwards from the things that he says and does. It will soon start to disrupt the norms, values and priorities of your life. And this book is an effort to explore eight different ways that are disruptive to our lives when we reverse engineer back from Jesus.
00:22:50
S1: This is so good. You know, one of the statements that you make, and again, I want to get into these topics, but I just want you to find one more thing. You make this statement about muddy puddles or mud puddles. I'm sorry. Mud puddles. Yes, yes. I think I got that right. And the way adults respond to mud puddles versus the way young adults do or kids do. Uh, we got just a couple minutes before we gotta take a break, but what do you mean by mud puddles? And how does Jesus and his teachings create mud puddles for us?
00:23:28
S2: Sure. Um, so mud mudpiles is a metaphor I use for when an adult comes up to a mud puddle. We jump over it or step to the side. When a kid comes up to a mud puddle, a kid might jump into it. And remember, Jesus invited us to be like children in order to experience the kingdom of God. So a mud puddle is anything Jesus says or does that we don't really get either. We don't like it, we don't understand it, or we say something like, well, there's Jesus for you. Like a good example is when Jesus said to his disciples and by extension us, um, you know, the things that I do, well, you're going to do those things in even greater things. And inside we say, Jesus, right? Okay. And we jump over it. We jump over it because we don't get it. Uh, my favorite mud puddle story in all of scripture is his encounter with the Canaanite woman in the in the wilderness with his disciples, who is bugging him, asking that he release her daughter from demonic oppression. And the disciples are like Jesus, take care of this pagan woman. She is just bugging us and he turns to talk to the woman, asks what she wants. She tells him and he says, I've come for the children of Israel, not essentially for dogs like you. Whoa! Now that is a mud puddle. What is Jesus doing here? And she responds, yes, master, but even the dogs eat the scraps off the master's table, and Jesus just explodes with delight and points to this pagan woman, to his disciples and says, there's no greater faith that I've experienced in Israel than what she just did. And is such a powerful story. But but when's the last time you heard that story preached in a sermon or in church anywhere? It's because it's a mud puddle. It's like, what is Jesus doing here?
00:25:15
S1: Yeah. And we could put a whole lot of things into that mud puddle category. Rick, I'm so grateful that you are willing to allow Jesus to speak for himself, to call us back to focusing our gaze on him. That's why I appreciate this book editing Jesus. I want you to find out more at our website, equip radio dot ORG. I want you to love Jesus. And I believe if you do and you abide in him, your life will be transformed. We'll talk about more what that looks like on the other side of this break. Much more to come. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks. Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded. While we won't be taking calls, we do want to connect with you on social media. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. I hope you're having a great day growing in Jesus and growing in his faith. You know, one of the things that I love about this month is that it is anniversary month for so many couples. Seems like just about every time I go on social media, somebody's announcing it's their anniversary date. And I think that's awesome. You know, anniversaries allow us to rekindle our commitment to our spouse, to remember the reason why we said I do, and to experience the revival of our love affair for the one that we married. And I think that that's what our relationship with Jesus is all about. And I hope that this daily program, I hope that you're gathering together with other believers, uh, and in worship to Jesus. I hope it does the same thing. I hope it's almost like a renewing of the vow opportunity to be able to reaffirm your affections for Christ. So today, I pray is encouraging for you. And let me just say that as we have this conversation about the state of the church, some of the things that we say may sound critical. But my hope as we emerge from this conversation is for you to love you, to love Christ more, and for you to love the Bride of Christ more, because Jesus certainly does. Rick Lawrence is my guest today. Rick is the executive director of vibrant Faith, an organization focused on ministry resourcing, training, and coaching. He's also, uh, part of a home church, if you will, uh, that really focuses in on discovering the heart of Jesus not pursuing his recipes, but he's the author of many books, but his newest is editing Jesus Confronting the Distorted Faith of the American Church. Let's just talk about some of the areas that, unfortunately, we've distorted, that we've gotten off track as it pertains, uh, to, to Jesus and his ministry. So much of it starts with our, our approach to power. Talk about chapter one.
00:28:22
S2: Oh, that's, that's good. It's kind of I've tried to explain to people it's kind of the low hanging fruit chapter. So when I was talking to the publisher about how we were going to order these chapters, uh, they, their first response was, maybe we should kind of bury that one a little further back in the book. And I said, you know, it's the obvious. It's the obvious one. It's a chapter about how contemporary Christendom, uh, treats power and how that tracks back to the, uh, the first commingling of religious faith and the levers of power in, in the Roman Emperor Constantine. How it kind of started with these kind of intertwined threads that Constantine laid the groundwork for that ended up, uh, leading to a state church environment. And so, uh, the chapter starts with this recollection of a conversation I had with a bunch of academics during a break at a conference. And they were talking about this quote unquote decline of the church. And what are some of the reasons for that? And an academic dean said Constantine. And they all were just shaking their heads. And so then they started talking about how all of this tracks back there. But the the point of the chapter is that the way that we engage and express power in Christendom today, um, bears very little resemblance to the way Jesus engaged in expressed power. So it contrasts the two ways and explores how this happened and then explores for, you know, the last third or half of the chapter, if this is true, if this is what the unedited Jesus looks like relative to power, what what kinds of implications are have are that for us? So there's just kind of a menu of possibilities of like, what does it mean to live in the way of Jesus? If we come to worship and follow the unedited Jesus, when we do that in this arena, it disrupts are our current norms, priorities and values around how power is expressed and how we engage it.
00:30:30
S1: You just said a mouthful, my friend, and there is so much within me that wants to just camp out here. Um, just a little bit more if we could, about the term Christendom for those who don't know that term. Um, it's a term that I've always described this way. It's whenever the church wants to mix our faith with state power, with kingdom power, earthly kingdom power, if you will. It is, um, to me always been when we have wanted to use the mechanisms of the world to control and protect and preserve our preferences and our comforts. Now, that's my definition. and this is something the church has struggled with throughout our history. And there it's really interesting in that we go for the first couple hundred years of of Christianity from being persecuted to ultimately becoming a persecutor and all of these things. But what would you say is the definition of that term?
00:31:43
S2: Yeah. So this is an imperfect way of thinking about Christendom, but you could say it's like a couple that, uh, commits to one another in love, in marriage. And sometimes when people talk about, uh, how can we support, encourage and feed our marriage, it has this subtle way of distancing yourself from the actual relationship. So you're serving the structure of something that is a result of the relationship, and you can suddenly begin to invest yourself in the structure of the thing. And you can miss the actual relationship. So that's what I mean when I contrast Christendom with what it means to follow Jesus. Things built because we're human beings, things build up around our relationship with Jesus, and over time, that structural entity becomes Christendom. It becomes a way of life. When you say, I'm a Christian and there's a way of life that Christians embrace, that's Christendom. Following Jesus may or may not overlap with the priorities of Christendom, and often they don't overlap. That's why it's so important to reverse engineer back from Jesus that when you do that, you start to expose the ways Christendom has has strayed off the path from the example of Jesus. And we see examples of that everywhere right now. Things that Jesus would never say or do, or being represented as Christian. And that's because Christendom has has adopted and embraced those things.
00:33:17
S1: All right. Because of time, we can't get in depth like we just did for each one. Yeah. But I do. So I'm going to couple of a few of them. And I want to couple up what Jesus wants our heart to be for the poor with what you call the golden calf of materialism. I see those as two sides of the same coin. So that's really a little talk a little bit about that.
00:33:48
S2: Yeah. So, um, the, uh, the third chapter, I think it is, is called The marginalization of the poor. And it starts out with a very well known story about the rich young ruler, but I put a twist on it. So in the rich young ruler story, we hear, Jesus has seen and loving this young guy who's kind of checked every box. He's like, I am, I am a super Christian. He's that valedictorian Christian guy. And, um, so Jesus is listening to him and loving his heart, and the guy is asking a real question, what else do I have to do? And Jesus says, sell all you have. Give it all to the poor and follow me. Of the many kinds of extractions from that story that we teach about, one that you rarely hear is Jesus advocating the transfer of wealth from a successful believer who's, uh, you know, built up, uh, his, his wealth and affluence, the transfer of wealth from him to poor people. And if we heard that divorced from Jesus, if we didn't know Jesus said that, we'd say, well, that sounds like socialism to me or something. But it's it's really an expression of Jesus's heart for the poor, which comes up over and over and over in the example in life of Jesus. His heart for the poor. Um, and and Jesus tells us I am the, the concrete example of the God. You can't see Everything you see in me is simply reflective of the God you can't see. So what we see in this is God's heart toward the poor. Um, and you, uh, you connected this Chris with, uh, a chapter on materialism. And I think they are connected. Uh, there's a kind of a leftover Old Testament value system that we have still in as new covenant Christians, which you can see Jesus poking at this in, in many examples as well, where people in the Old Testament believed that you were in favor with God when you were materially well off, that was a sign that God's favor was rested upon you. They believed that you. That God had a problem with you if you weren't materially, materially, well off and in a subtle way. Uh, our contemporary church has embraced and adopted that same mentality that we come to the poor with a kind of a basic, uh, underlying weed inside that says the. There's something wrong. There's something in their agency that hasn't been exercised. Um, there's something wrong there out of God's favor. I however, as part of the middle class affluence of America, God seems well pleased with me. So there's this subtle deception that has worked its way into our consciousness, and it is tied to this sort of, uh, what I call in the book, the Western Christian success narrative. What does it mean to be a successful Christian in the West? It always involves, uh, material success of some kind.
00:36:56
S1: Again, you could spend the rest of our conversation, Rick, just talking about these things. I can't express fully how grateful I am for you to bring these things to our attention because I hear them as a loving invitation from Jesus, not just as some cold hearted rebuke, but a loving invitation for us to come back to him. Um, I think that when we edit Jesus, it produces a weariness of heart, a weariness of life, because what we basically set ourselves up to do is to try to live the Christian life out of our own strength. And that was never what he intended. I'm so grateful, uh, that you have, uh, captured the thoughts that you shared on that panel in editing Jesus. I want you to consider friends picking up a copy of Editing Jesus. Go to our website, find out more at equip radio.org. We'll be right back right after this. Each day on equip, we confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes. Your support as an equipper helps us reach more people with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly resources and updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an Equipper today and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call 8886444144 or go online to equip. radio.org. Today's program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Time flies when you're having important conversations such as the case today. That's why I'm grateful that Moody publishers. helped to publish this great book by Rick Lawrence, Editing Jesus Confronting the Distorted Faith of the American Church. And if you find yourself disenchanted, maybe even questioning your relationship with the church, or even worse, your relationship with Jesus, I would just say, before you deconstruct, before you decide you're leaving, packing your bags and leaving the Christian faith, read this book. Uh. Find out more at equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. More of us, I think, need this book than what we realize. There's so many questions I want to ask, but let's talk about justice for just a moment. There is such a huge focus on justice in the hearts of some, uh, in this generation, in particular young adults. Um, help us to have, uh, maybe a proper understanding of justice.
00:40:09
S2: Yeah. So it's the last chapter of the book for a reason. Um, I wanted it to be the last statement of the book, uh, about God's heart for justice. And it starts the chapter starts off with, uh, kind of a longish quote from Gary Haugen, who is, um, the founder and president of International Justice Mission, talking about the biblical role of justice in the heart of God. And he essentially says, you can't separate the two in, in, in the heart of God, love is justice, and justice is love. So the title of the chapter, though, is The Deprioritizing of Justice, meaning in the church. What we've done is we've said, yeah, justice is important. It's one of those, you know, like appetizers on the menu. It's one of those things that, yeah, it's not really at the core though. It's not really at the hub of things. And, uh, Gary Haugen himself describes his own, uh, kind of journey through the church up until this point. And he says something like, you know, I I've heard maybe 10,000 sermons in my lifetime, but in my particular branch of the church, I never heard a single one growing up about justice. Um, so it's interesting because now his whole life revolves around living out the loving heart of justice and the heart of God. Uh, but that's how it starts. And what you just referenced, Chris, too, is that, um, that among young people and I think of young people, um, as, uh, as having a prophetic voice to the church right now. Um, not everything young people, uh, say, uh, in their complaints about the church, um, is useful, but there are so many core things that they're trying to say to the church that I think are prophetic. And there's a section in the book where I talk about how young people, uh, see the church and the gap between what matters to them and what they think matters to the church. And here are the. Here are the top four racial justice. There's a 21% gap, meaning the level that they care about that versus the level they think the church cares about. That is 20. The gap is 21% in immigration rights, 23% income inequality, 23% disability rights, 22%. So you can see here the heart of a generation that these are these are at the top of the list of the passions among Gen Z and, and, uh, and Gen Alpha and, uh, and I think there's something in here that is a prophetic call to the church. Every revival in American history has started in some way or form around something happening with young people. And I think that's what's happening now as well. There's something in this that young people are calling to the church to. And I think Gary Haugen is simply expressing it well. He's saying justice is at the very core of God's heart. It's not an appetizer on his menu.
00:43:15
S1: All right. I want you to do something. Um, we've talked a lot about social media. Obviously, you know, I'm a radio host. I'm a pastor as well. Um, maybe take a minute. If you had a room full of pastors like myself, what cautions would you give us about social media and platforming?
00:43:34
S2: Huh? Yeah. There's a chapter called The Siren Song of Platforming in the book. And really it's, uh, I, you know, Chris, uh, you and I can resonate from with this from the inside out. I'm an author. You're a radio host. Um, the, the key to this is to build up a platform, a large number of people who are paying attention to what you're saying. And the insidious nature of this that doesn't just apply to artists and authors and musicians or pastors. It applies to everyone in our contemporary culture because of social media, which means that the it has this subtle, uh, influence in our lives that your voice doesn't matter unless you have a growing platform. And there's, there's no biblical precedent for that. In fact, if you look at the life of Jesus, he went from being a fabulous platformer to driving and destroying his quote unquote platform in John six, where he had tens of thousands of people listening to him. And he said, ten times in a row, you got to eat my body and drink my blood if you want any part of me. And he didn't explain himself. And that drove those 10,000 people away and just left his disciples on that hillside. And he said, are you guys going to leave, too, because of this? So Jesus was really not interested in platforming. And if we're reverse engineering back from him, what does that mean for us? It means that we, we, we carefully consider the forces at work in platforming and try to live outside those forces.
00:45:05
S1: Last question 30s what's your hope for those who read the book?
00:45:11
S2: I hope they encounter the disruptive beauty of the heart of Jesus. That's my primary hope that they would become enamored and they could say with Paul, I consider everything garbage compared to knowing Jesus. And by the way, that word garbage that uses is the Greek word skulen. Look it up. It's a stronger word than garbage. So I hope that people come to that kind of realization inside that by reading this book, that they're enamored of the heart of Jesus so that everything else looks like garbage to them.
00:45:45
S1: Father, may it be true for us. Forgive us for drifting from our love for Jesus. And Lord, we pray that you would recapture our hearts again. Thank you for Rick blessing. Lord, we ask in Jesus name. Amen and amen. Rick, it's been a blessing to have you on with me, brother. Thanks for carving out this time to be with me.
00:46:07
S2: Yeah. Chris enjoyed this so much. Thank you for all you're doing.
00:46:11
S1: Friends. You can find out more at our website, equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. Also, please feel free to go to our social media platforms. We can keep the conversation going there as you share your comments and feedback as well. Most of all, I want you to follow Jesus. So if you don't have a relationship with him, dial this number eight, eight, eight need him. That's eight, eight, eight. Need him. And until we're together again next time. As always, remember equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: Today's program has been prerecorded, so our phone lines are not open. Well hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. I'm absolutely thrilled that you've joined us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made. He is giving it as a gift so that you and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice! What an amazing time of year it is for many of you as parents. Maybe you're getting excited about back to school time. Maybe your kids are as well. If you're a young adult and you're listening to this today, maybe it is a season of transition for you, uh, to college, to career. And in the midst of it all, I want you to know we're praying for you. We're praying for families. We're certainly praying for young adults who are embracing adulting in a whole new level. I got a daughter, many of you know, that's in college. And, and these are certainly a times where a whole wave of emotions hits you and you recognize the current cultural climate, uh, that is out there and what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ and all the complexities that come along with that. But just know that every day you can count on equip to remind you of the message of the gospel, the power of Christ at work in our lives, in and through his people. And just know we love to be your prayer partner. We count it a joy to come alongside of you on the journey and to be praying for you and your family. If there's any way that we can pray for you today and your family in this season, or if you're a young adult and you just need some encouragement, just know we're available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You can connect with us through all of our socials. You can find us at Equip Radio, equip Radio, and also feel free to reach out to us through our website at equip radio.org. That's equip radio.org. Well, today I want to talk about the church. You guys know how much I love the church. And if you love the church like me, you love the bride of Christ because of your love for Jesus. Uh, and any honest assessment leaves you deeply concerned about the state of the church. There seems to be a rise in secularism. There seems to be so many that find themselves disenchanted and deconstructing. That's kind of the new wave, if you will, of those who find themselves questioning, uh, the way that people are approaching their faith broadly. And so many are calling themselves ex evangelicals leaving, uh, the evangelical, uh, world and, and, uh, some leaving the faith altogether. Uh, while ministry leaders are rightfully concerned about all of that. And in the midst of it, so many are looking for solutions and looking for answers. And I would say this, that while I'm a firm believer that the Bible is right, that it works in every generation that we don't need, uh, we don't need to improve upon the gospel. Sadly, there's so much drift that's happening and our effort to try to innovate, if you will, to be attractional in a way that causes us to miss the heart of Jesus. And recently I came across a book that really, I feel like summarized and spoke to the moment we're living in. Uh, so well. And I wanted to introduce you to it. And for many of you to the author, uh, the name of the book is Editing Jesus Confronting the Distorted Faith of the American Church. The author is Rick Lawrence. He's the executive director of vibrant Faith. He's also a leader in a home church for young people, and I love to delve into that more. Rick has dedicated his life to helping people to live Jesus, Jesus centered lives, uh, to, uh, really resource them to know the heart of Jesus and not his recipes, to really allow his Word to shape their lives and to, and to love him deeply. And so today, I'm really excited to have Rick Lawrence with me. Rick, how are you, brother?
00:04:41
S2: I'm good. Chris, thanks so much for inviting me into your space here.
00:04:45
S1: Yeah. Talk a little bit for those who don't know about vibrant faith.
00:04:51
S2: So vibrant Faith was founded about 25 years ago by a pioneering researcher named Doctor Merton Stroman. He. He started. He launched an organization called Search Institute back in the day that was the precursor to all the sort of Christian focused research institutions that are prevalent today. Search Institute is still going on, but he, along the way planted a kind of an adjacent organization that the time was called the Youth and Family Institute, which really built to focus on a truth that the church, strangely, has had a hard time coming to grips with over the years, because it's really the way God is hardwired, uh, discipleship to work. It it moves through families primarily. It moves through parents. Now, all the research has backed up what we know theologically and what's true in the Bible. Um, and so Merton Stroman started this little organization to promote the inseparable relationship between church ministry and parents, helping equip parents to be, a primary influencers, which they already are in their home, but how to equip them to, to do that even better. And so we carry out that mission today. We changed the name about ten years ago to vibrant Faith. And we do resourcing, training, coaching, and research, all of it focused on equipping church ministry leaders to help parents step into this role fully. And we have, you know, we have a lot of particular focuses. One of them, since I've been the leader of this organization for four years, we have a sort of a core thread through everything we do that is about Jesus centeredness. So that that's kind of been woven into the the 25 year old threads of vibrant faith.
00:06:39
S1: You know, author of over 40 books, you have dedicated your life to really, um, caring, loving thinking, deeply resourcing the church as we just discussed. And now this book editing Jesus. You know, I, I recognize there's a cost to writing every book, a personal cost, a sacrifice that comes along with even telling the truth. And this book is so full of, uh, loving but challenging truth. Talk about the origin. What caused you to say I need to put pen to paper and write editing? Jesus.
00:07:17
S2: That's a great question. So about three years ago, I was invited by Jake Bland, who's the youngest president of youth for Christ in its history.
00:07:27
S1: Yeah.
00:07:28
S2: Yeah. Uh, and I had had a mentoring relationship with Jake several years prior. Uh, but then kind of out of the blue, he, he asked me if I would go on an hour long online Q&A during the pandemic with all of the American leaders for youth, for Christ. So hundreds and hundreds of them online. And he wanted to do an hour long Q&A with me toward the end of that Q&A, he asked me a question that I didn't really see coming. It made it. It made me pause, he said. Rick, given everything you've just said, what do you think is the greatest challenge facing the church today? Wow, that's a big question. I, I pause for a second and then I said, editing Jesus. And he said, okay, what do you mean by that? And, and I said, and then I spent about ten minutes describing what I meant by that. And after it was done, about ten minutes later, Jake texted me and said, oh my gosh, my text and my emails blowing up. There's so many people that want to know more about what you're talking about because it's resonate. It resonated with them, but they want more. So that planted this little seed where I, you know, just started talking to Jesus. Is this something you want me to go after? And so three years later, I have a book. So basically what I, what I explained in that ten minutes was that all of these surface reasons that we point to for the, the so-called decline of the church, I don't think it's a decline. It's a pruning. We could talk about that if you want, but but, um, all of the surface reasons we point to for that, um, are masking the real reason underneath all this, which is the church has shifted away from Jesus as he is and has adopted an edited version of him. And when that happens, God pulls out the gardening shears.
00:09:11
S1: We edit him before he can edit us. We recast his plot twist and sand down his obvious rough spots, making Jesus both safer and duller. This is what you write in your introduction. I found your introduction really, really interesting on a number of, uh, for a number of reasons. Let's just talk about two of them. First off, you do use the word pruning instead of decline. Why do you prefer pruning over decline when you talk about the current trajectory of the church?
00:09:47
S2: Right. So, um, uh, decline implies if you think about this, a decline implies that, oh, we have a problem in our business model here in the church, our marketing not right. Or we need to get our messaging right. You know, we need to be more attractional, uh, all of these things that, uh, that filter through the same language of business might use if it's, if it's struggling when and what it does is it, it subtly cuts out the agency of God. So what if what's happening in church right now is at the hand of God, not at the hand of market forces? If that's the case, and this has been the case throughout the history of the people of God, where he pulls out his pruning shears and the pruning of, let's say, a fruit tree, that the reason you prune a fruit tree is to spur its growth. But if you are that tree, the. The cutting is incredibly painful, and I work with church ministry leaders all over the country and have for more than three decades now, and they're in a lot of pain right now. In for a variety of reasons, in the midst of this, uh, uh, challenges and struggles they're facing in contemporary culture, they're in a lot of pain. And so it's, it's hard not to feel compassion and empathy for that. But if you stand back and think about this more broadly, um, I believe clearly God is, is, has got his shears out and he's clipping the church for the sake of new growth. That's always important to keep in mind of what he's really after. A master gardener has to prune a fruit tree in order for that tree to produce the kind of fruit it was meant to. And I believe that's the season we're in right now.
00:11:31
S1: Those aren't comfortable seasons at all. They're painful seasons. It's easy for us to read John 15 and to, uh, romanticize it or, or soften it. But as you Said that the pruning is always designed for more fruitfulness for us to produce fresh and new fruit. And so maybe there's a pastor or a leader who's listening to us to say and, and is saying in her own heart, Rick, that this is more than just a statistical reality for us. This is more than just research. This is our front living room. This is what we're going through right now. And if you are that pastor, if you are that leader, just know that I've invited Rick on for us. I think this is a family conversation. Certainly, there are those who are not a part of the Christian faith that are listening to us right now, have this conversation, and I hope you find it to be one that's honest, uh, about, you know, both our faults and flaws as well as what is good and, and true. But if you are a church leader, I want you to listen to what Rick has to say because I think that these areas in which he helps the church to see where we have edited Jesus can be plaguing our church now. And if it is. And if God and his love and grace has been pruning us and some hard ways, then maybe it's time for us to repent, to realign with God so the fire of revival can be reignited in our hearts for us to live Jesus centered and to see a new generation serving and loving him. We're going to talk more to Rick Lawrence after this break. Find out more at our website. Equip radio dot o, r g. Whatever you do, stick and stay. Much more to come right after this. When adult children pull away, parents are often left with grief and confusion and unanswered questions. But there is real hope for your family. Resolve conflict, and find peace and hope with adult Children by Kathy Cooke, gives parents a biblical tool and practical strategies to pursue peace and rebuild what's been lost. A copy can be yours today with a gift of any amount. To equip, simply call 8886444144 or visit equip radio.org. Chris Brookes here reminding you that today's program is prerecorded and we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. The book is editing Jesus. It's for church leaders for sure. But I would say for parents, for moms, dads, for those who are interested in particular for the next generation, who is wrestling with faith and relationship with Jesus and church. I think Rick has a lot to say to all of us. Find out more on our website. Equip radio.org. Rick, one of the things I respect about you is your willingness to listen to young people. And going back to the introduction of your book, you mentioned some of the feedback that you've been told by the young people who come to your home church as you label it. Um, describe that and what they've told you about the church and their struggle with it.
00:15:09
S2: Yeah. So, uh, kind of to loop back to a phrase you used in the, in the beginning as well, that this group started accidentally. It's a long story about how it got started, but, uh, ten years ago, and I've been leading it ever since, it's 2 or 3 dozen young people from five or 6 or 7 different churches in different schools all over the place, um, shifting lineup. But now they're, they're mostly college and post-college that are part of the group now. And our motto is pursuing the heart of Jesus, not his recipes. And that's a kind of a funny thing to go after. But what it means is that we're only concerned about drawing near experientially, conversationally, in a co-discovery environment. We're only concerned about drawing near to the heart of Jesus to experience and taste the beauty of his heart and the magnetism of who he is. We are totally unconcerned about life application. So that's kind of a shock sometimes when I say this to other people, like no life application. And the reason why is that Jesus maximized, uh, the, the way, the path of transformation by highlighting, abiding and remaining. And he does this in so many different ways. He's basically saying that your transformation comes from being closely attached to me. So that makes all of what we do, not just as ministry leaders, but just as people focused in on what, what, what does it mean to get closer to Jesus? How does that happen?
00:16:39
S1: And so yeah, let me let me just jump in real quickly because I think that there's so much that can be said about this. And I don't want to take us off on too far of a bunny rabbit trail, but I just want to say this, that one of my cautions to pastors and leaders is that so often the move in curriculums that are targeting kids and youth, Sunday school, youth group stuff is to principal the teachings of Jesus and to detach them from him as if that's what he desired, and as if we can be good people apart from regeneration, as if we can live the Christian life apart from Jesus. And we need to be very, very cautious about that. And we need to make sure that we are constantly monitoring. I can't tell you how many Sunday school curriculums or youth group curriculums that are out there. That and Rick, you'll know this. That will basically take, uh, some of the moral teachings of Jesus or, or, or tell people you need to be loving or kind or generous or whatever, and teach them as principles and recipes and maybe reference Jesus, but not centering it on having a relationship with him, with the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We can't be good apart from God. And, uh, I'm, I'm grateful for, for that. But I want to let you finish some of the feedback you heard from those young people.
00:18:14
S2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that first of all, that's incredibly well said Chris. It's exactly there's a whole chapter in the book called The Problem with Principles. And that, more than any other chapter in the book has, has generated a, a lot of hand-wringing, uh, in conversations I've had with people. So, uh, so you're just incredibly well said what you just said if Jesus is pointing us to what brings transformation, we just need to pay attention to that so that at the end of one of our times together, it's a two hour experience. So it's experiential, conversational, co-discovery we're all discovering together. I'm not preaching. I'm discovering with them, but I'm guiding them. Um, and I hear just the most remarkable, transformational, amazing things come out of their mouths. And it's an incredible experience. But at the end of one of those, I knew, because all along I hear these young people off and on talk about, uh, their, their struggles with the church, why they, why they're trying to persevere with the church through their struggles and sometimes why they've left. And so I just stopped and asked them, hey, could you just spend a few minutes telling me exactly what you have as a problem with the church right now? And they just kind of exploded and talked and I tried to capture what they were saying, and I put it in the introduction of my book. One of the comments that was said, I think, captures it really well. One of the one of the young people said that that the church is teaching things that aren't about Jesus. They're more like Ted talks. We don't want self-help. We want Jesus. So what he was, what they were trying to say is that they have a hunger for a relationship with Jesus. And what they're getting from the church is exactly how you just described, Chris, is they're taking the moral teachings of Jesus and turning them into try harder to get better principles. And that's, that's not feeding them. They have this deep longing for more than that. And these, these kids were articulate enough and, and had perspective enough to say, I know what we're getting. And it's not feeding me. Um, and I think the secondary thing is that in every aspect of a young person's life, in this contemporary culture, their voice matters. They have so many ways that they can make their voice matter. But when they walk into a church, very often their their voice doesn't matter. They're not part of the discovery. They're not respected. To try to discover with a leader what is the heart of Jesus? How. How does that impact my life? Um, they're just their voices are not part of the, um, the, the meat and potatoes of what's going on. And so they've been trained well that their voice doesn't matter. So it actually takes some time as a new person comes into our group for them to recognize, oh, they, they really, really want my voice here. And then they start to just unleash what they, what they see. And so that's what happens in the group.
00:21:23
S1: Wow. Wow. You use a number of terms throughout the book that I want to let you define. And then I want to get into these eight areas that you feel like we are editing. Jesus. Uh, let's talk about reverse engineering. What do you mean by that?
00:21:40
S2: So that's. I'm so glad you brought that up. So the book is it's a good way to describe the whole book. Reverse engineering means that we start with Jesus and work our way back into our lives, rather than start with our life and work our way toward Jesus. When we do it that way, we end up editing him because he doesn't fit with our pre-existing priorities, values, and norms. So, uh, if we're working from our story toward his story, then what we do is we shave off his edges or make a square peg round so it will fit. But if reverse engineering means that you start with Jesus and you accept that whatever Jesus says and does is good because he's the source of all goodness. He's not just pointing toward goodness. He's its very source. He's the definition of goodness. So if you accept that and then work backwards from the things that he says and does. It will soon start to disrupt the norms, values and priorities of your life. And this book is an effort to explore eight different ways that are disruptive to our lives when we reverse engineer back from Jesus.
00:22:50
S1: This is so good. You know, one of the statements that you make, and again, I want to get into these topics, but I just want you to find one more thing. You make this statement about muddy puddles or mud puddles. I'm sorry. Mud puddles. Yes, yes. I think I got that right. And the way adults respond to mud puddles versus the way young adults do or kids do. Uh, we got just a couple minutes before we gotta take a break, but what do you mean by mud puddles? And how does Jesus and his teachings create mud puddles for us?
00:23:28
S2: Sure. Um, so mud mudpiles is a metaphor I use for when an adult comes up to a mud puddle. We jump over it or step to the side. When a kid comes up to a mud puddle, a kid might jump into it. And remember, Jesus invited us to be like children in order to experience the kingdom of God. So a mud puddle is anything Jesus says or does that we don't really get either. We don't like it, we don't understand it, or we say something like, well, there's Jesus for you. Like a good example is when Jesus said to his disciples and by extension us, um, you know, the things that I do, well, you're going to do those things in even greater things. And inside we say, Jesus, right? Okay. And we jump over it. We jump over it because we don't get it. Uh, my favorite mud puddle story in all of scripture is his encounter with the Canaanite woman in the in the wilderness with his disciples, who is bugging him, asking that he release her daughter from demonic oppression. And the disciples are like Jesus, take care of this pagan woman. She is just bugging us and he turns to talk to the woman, asks what she wants. She tells him and he says, I've come for the children of Israel, not essentially for dogs like you. Whoa! Now that is a mud puddle. What is Jesus doing here? And she responds, yes, master, but even the dogs eat the scraps off the master's table, and Jesus just explodes with delight and points to this pagan woman, to his disciples and says, there's no greater faith that I've experienced in Israel than what she just did. And is such a powerful story. But but when's the last time you heard that story preached in a sermon or in church anywhere? It's because it's a mud puddle. It's like, what is Jesus doing here?
00:25:15
S1: Yeah. And we could put a whole lot of things into that mud puddle category. Rick, I'm so grateful that you are willing to allow Jesus to speak for himself, to call us back to focusing our gaze on him. That's why I appreciate this book editing Jesus. I want you to find out more at our website, equip radio dot ORG. I want you to love Jesus. And I believe if you do and you abide in him, your life will be transformed. We'll talk about more what that looks like on the other side of this break. Much more to come. Next up on equip with Chris Brooks. Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded. While we won't be taking calls, we do want to connect with you on social media. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. I hope you're having a great day growing in Jesus and growing in his faith. You know, one of the things that I love about this month is that it is anniversary month for so many couples. Seems like just about every time I go on social media, somebody's announcing it's their anniversary date. And I think that's awesome. You know, anniversaries allow us to rekindle our commitment to our spouse, to remember the reason why we said I do, and to experience the revival of our love affair for the one that we married. And I think that that's what our relationship with Jesus is all about. And I hope that this daily program, I hope that you're gathering together with other believers, uh, and in worship to Jesus. I hope it does the same thing. I hope it's almost like a renewing of the vow opportunity to be able to reaffirm your affections for Christ. So today, I pray is encouraging for you. And let me just say that as we have this conversation about the state of the church, some of the things that we say may sound critical. But my hope as we emerge from this conversation is for you to love you, to love Christ more, and for you to love the Bride of Christ more, because Jesus certainly does. Rick Lawrence is my guest today. Rick is the executive director of vibrant Faith, an organization focused on ministry resourcing, training, and coaching. He's also, uh, part of a home church, if you will, uh, that really focuses in on discovering the heart of Jesus not pursuing his recipes, but he's the author of many books, but his newest is editing Jesus Confronting the Distorted Faith of the American Church. Let's just talk about some of the areas that, unfortunately, we've distorted, that we've gotten off track as it pertains, uh, to, to Jesus and his ministry. So much of it starts with our, our approach to power. Talk about chapter one.
00:28:22
S2: Oh, that's, that's good. It's kind of I've tried to explain to people it's kind of the low hanging fruit chapter. So when I was talking to the publisher about how we were going to order these chapters, uh, they, their first response was, maybe we should kind of bury that one a little further back in the book. And I said, you know, it's the obvious. It's the obvious one. It's a chapter about how contemporary Christendom, uh, treats power and how that tracks back to the, uh, the first commingling of religious faith and the levers of power in, in the Roman Emperor Constantine. How it kind of started with these kind of intertwined threads that Constantine laid the groundwork for that ended up, uh, leading to a state church environment. And so, uh, the chapter starts with this recollection of a conversation I had with a bunch of academics during a break at a conference. And they were talking about this quote unquote decline of the church. And what are some of the reasons for that? And an academic dean said Constantine. And they all were just shaking their heads. And so then they started talking about how all of this tracks back there. But the the point of the chapter is that the way that we engage and express power in Christendom today, um, bears very little resemblance to the way Jesus engaged in expressed power. So it contrasts the two ways and explores how this happened and then explores for, you know, the last third or half of the chapter, if this is true, if this is what the unedited Jesus looks like relative to power, what what kinds of implications are have are that for us? So there's just kind of a menu of possibilities of like, what does it mean to live in the way of Jesus? If we come to worship and follow the unedited Jesus, when we do that in this arena, it disrupts are our current norms, priorities and values around how power is expressed and how we engage it.
00:30:30
S1: You just said a mouthful, my friend, and there is so much within me that wants to just camp out here. Um, just a little bit more if we could, about the term Christendom for those who don't know that term. Um, it's a term that I've always described this way. It's whenever the church wants to mix our faith with state power, with kingdom power, earthly kingdom power, if you will. It is, um, to me always been when we have wanted to use the mechanisms of the world to control and protect and preserve our preferences and our comforts. Now, that's my definition. and this is something the church has struggled with throughout our history. And there it's really interesting in that we go for the first couple hundred years of of Christianity from being persecuted to ultimately becoming a persecutor and all of these things. But what would you say is the definition of that term?
00:31:43
S2: Yeah. So this is an imperfect way of thinking about Christendom, but you could say it's like a couple that, uh, commits to one another in love, in marriage. And sometimes when people talk about, uh, how can we support, encourage and feed our marriage, it has this subtle way of distancing yourself from the actual relationship. So you're serving the structure of something that is a result of the relationship, and you can suddenly begin to invest yourself in the structure of the thing. And you can miss the actual relationship. So that's what I mean when I contrast Christendom with what it means to follow Jesus. Things built because we're human beings, things build up around our relationship with Jesus, and over time, that structural entity becomes Christendom. It becomes a way of life. When you say, I'm a Christian and there's a way of life that Christians embrace, that's Christendom. Following Jesus may or may not overlap with the priorities of Christendom, and often they don't overlap. That's why it's so important to reverse engineer back from Jesus that when you do that, you start to expose the ways Christendom has has strayed off the path from the example of Jesus. And we see examples of that everywhere right now. Things that Jesus would never say or do, or being represented as Christian. And that's because Christendom has has adopted and embraced those things.
00:33:17
S1: All right. Because of time, we can't get in depth like we just did for each one. Yeah. But I do. So I'm going to couple of a few of them. And I want to couple up what Jesus wants our heart to be for the poor with what you call the golden calf of materialism. I see those as two sides of the same coin. So that's really a little talk a little bit about that.
00:33:48
S2: Yeah. So, um, the, uh, the third chapter, I think it is, is called The marginalization of the poor. And it starts out with a very well known story about the rich young ruler, but I put a twist on it. So in the rich young ruler story, we hear, Jesus has seen and loving this young guy who's kind of checked every box. He's like, I am, I am a super Christian. He's that valedictorian Christian guy. And, um, so Jesus is listening to him and loving his heart, and the guy is asking a real question, what else do I have to do? And Jesus says, sell all you have. Give it all to the poor and follow me. Of the many kinds of extractions from that story that we teach about, one that you rarely hear is Jesus advocating the transfer of wealth from a successful believer who's, uh, you know, built up, uh, his, his wealth and affluence, the transfer of wealth from him to poor people. And if we heard that divorced from Jesus, if we didn't know Jesus said that, we'd say, well, that sounds like socialism to me or something. But it's it's really an expression of Jesus's heart for the poor, which comes up over and over and over in the example in life of Jesus. His heart for the poor. Um, and and Jesus tells us I am the, the concrete example of the God. You can't see Everything you see in me is simply reflective of the God you can't see. So what we see in this is God's heart toward the poor. Um, and you, uh, you connected this Chris with, uh, a chapter on materialism. And I think they are connected. Uh, there's a kind of a leftover Old Testament value system that we have still in as new covenant Christians, which you can see Jesus poking at this in, in many examples as well, where people in the Old Testament believed that you were in favor with God when you were materially well off, that was a sign that God's favor was rested upon you. They believed that you. That God had a problem with you if you weren't materially, materially, well off and in a subtle way. Uh, our contemporary church has embraced and adopted that same mentality that we come to the poor with a kind of a basic, uh, underlying weed inside that says the. There's something wrong. There's something in their agency that hasn't been exercised. Um, there's something wrong there out of God's favor. I however, as part of the middle class affluence of America, God seems well pleased with me. So there's this subtle deception that has worked its way into our consciousness, and it is tied to this sort of, uh, what I call in the book, the Western Christian success narrative. What does it mean to be a successful Christian in the West? It always involves, uh, material success of some kind.
00:36:56
S1: Again, you could spend the rest of our conversation, Rick, just talking about these things. I can't express fully how grateful I am for you to bring these things to our attention because I hear them as a loving invitation from Jesus, not just as some cold hearted rebuke, but a loving invitation for us to come back to him. Um, I think that when we edit Jesus, it produces a weariness of heart, a weariness of life, because what we basically set ourselves up to do is to try to live the Christian life out of our own strength. And that was never what he intended. I'm so grateful, uh, that you have, uh, captured the thoughts that you shared on that panel in editing Jesus. I want you to consider friends picking up a copy of Editing Jesus. Go to our website, find out more at equip radio.org. We'll be right back right after this. Each day on equip, we confront the cultural challenges of our time, offering biblical truth with discernment and confidence in God's plans and purposes. Your support as an equipper helps us reach more people with God's truth, and you'll receive exclusive monthly resources and updates to encourage your spiritual life. Become an Equipper today and partner with us in this vital ministry. Call 8886444144 or go online to equip. radio.org. Today's program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Time flies when you're having important conversations such as the case today. That's why I'm grateful that Moody publishers. helped to publish this great book by Rick Lawrence, Editing Jesus Confronting the Distorted Faith of the American Church. And if you find yourself disenchanted, maybe even questioning your relationship with the church, or even worse, your relationship with Jesus, I would just say, before you deconstruct, before you decide you're leaving, packing your bags and leaving the Christian faith, read this book. Uh. Find out more at equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. More of us, I think, need this book than what we realize. There's so many questions I want to ask, but let's talk about justice for just a moment. There is such a huge focus on justice in the hearts of some, uh, in this generation, in particular young adults. Um, help us to have, uh, maybe a proper understanding of justice.
00:40:09
S2: Yeah. So it's the last chapter of the book for a reason. Um, I wanted it to be the last statement of the book, uh, about God's heart for justice. And it starts the chapter starts off with, uh, kind of a longish quote from Gary Haugen, who is, um, the founder and president of International Justice Mission, talking about the biblical role of justice in the heart of God. And he essentially says, you can't separate the two in, in, in the heart of God, love is justice, and justice is love. So the title of the chapter, though, is The Deprioritizing of Justice, meaning in the church. What we've done is we've said, yeah, justice is important. It's one of those, you know, like appetizers on the menu. It's one of those things that, yeah, it's not really at the core though. It's not really at the hub of things. And, uh, Gary Haugen himself describes his own, uh, kind of journey through the church up until this point. And he says something like, you know, I I've heard maybe 10,000 sermons in my lifetime, but in my particular branch of the church, I never heard a single one growing up about justice. Um, so it's interesting because now his whole life revolves around living out the loving heart of justice and the heart of God. Uh, but that's how it starts. And what you just referenced, Chris, too, is that, um, that among young people and I think of young people, um, as, uh, as having a prophetic voice to the church right now. Um, not everything young people, uh, say, uh, in their complaints about the church, um, is useful, but there are so many core things that they're trying to say to the church that I think are prophetic. And there's a section in the book where I talk about how young people, uh, see the church and the gap between what matters to them and what they think matters to the church. And here are the. Here are the top four racial justice. There's a 21% gap, meaning the level that they care about that versus the level they think the church cares about. That is 20. The gap is 21% in immigration rights, 23% income inequality, 23% disability rights, 22%. So you can see here the heart of a generation that these are these are at the top of the list of the passions among Gen Z and, and, uh, and Gen Alpha and, uh, and I think there's something in here that is a prophetic call to the church. Every revival in American history has started in some way or form around something happening with young people. And I think that's what's happening now as well. There's something in this that young people are calling to the church to. And I think Gary Haugen is simply expressing it well. He's saying justice is at the very core of God's heart. It's not an appetizer on his menu.
00:43:15
S1: All right. I want you to do something. Um, we've talked a lot about social media. Obviously, you know, I'm a radio host. I'm a pastor as well. Um, maybe take a minute. If you had a room full of pastors like myself, what cautions would you give us about social media and platforming?
00:43:34
S2: Huh? Yeah. There's a chapter called The Siren Song of Platforming in the book. And really it's, uh, I, you know, Chris, uh, you and I can resonate from with this from the inside out. I'm an author. You're a radio host. Um, the, the key to this is to build up a platform, a large number of people who are paying attention to what you're saying. And the insidious nature of this that doesn't just apply to artists and authors and musicians or pastors. It applies to everyone in our contemporary culture because of social media, which means that the it has this subtle, uh, influence in our lives that your voice doesn't matter unless you have a growing platform. And there's, there's no biblical precedent for that. In fact, if you look at the life of Jesus, he went from being a fabulous platformer to driving and destroying his quote unquote platform in John six, where he had tens of thousands of people listening to him. And he said, ten times in a row, you got to eat my body and drink my blood if you want any part of me. And he didn't explain himself. And that drove those 10,000 people away and just left his disciples on that hillside. And he said, are you guys going to leave, too, because of this? So Jesus was really not interested in platforming. And if we're reverse engineering back from him, what does that mean for us? It means that we, we, we carefully consider the forces at work in platforming and try to live outside those forces.
00:45:05
S1: Last question 30s what's your hope for those who read the book?
00:45:11
S2: I hope they encounter the disruptive beauty of the heart of Jesus. That's my primary hope that they would become enamored and they could say with Paul, I consider everything garbage compared to knowing Jesus. And by the way, that word garbage that uses is the Greek word skulen. Look it up. It's a stronger word than garbage. So I hope that people come to that kind of realization inside that by reading this book, that they're enamored of the heart of Jesus so that everything else looks like garbage to them.
00:45:45
S1: Father, may it be true for us. Forgive us for drifting from our love for Jesus. And Lord, we pray that you would recapture our hearts again. Thank you for Rick blessing. Lord, we ask in Jesus name. Amen and amen. Rick, it's been a blessing to have you on with me, brother. Thanks for carving out this time to be with me.
00:46:07
S2: Yeah. Chris enjoyed this so much. Thank you for all you're doing.
00:46:11
S1: Friends. You can find out more at our website, equip radio.org. That's equip radio dot ORG. Also, please feel free to go to our social media platforms. We can keep the conversation going there as you share your comments and feedback as well. Most of all, I want you to follow Jesus. So if you don't have a relationship with him, dial this number eight, eight, eight need him. That's eight, eight, eight. Need him. And until we're together again next time. As always, remember equipped with Chris Brooks is a production of Moody Radio, a Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
