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Hello everyone, and welcome to the very first ever interview episode of Epika Talks.
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I'm delighted to have our first ever guest with us today, and that guest is Finbar Carter.
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FinBar Carter is a qualified teacher, NLP business practitioner, and CTI coactive coach with additional training in process-oriented psychology and nonviolent communication.
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Throughout his career, he has combined education, coaching, and entrepreneurship to help people navigate challenges, unlock their potential, and create positive change.
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He currently works as a student enterprise officer at the University of East Anglia, where he supports students and graduates to develop business and social enterprises with purpose.
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He has also been involved in his family's business, Rebel Line Sound System, since the age of 18, helping to bring authentic roots reggae music to audiences around Norfolk and across the UK and Europe.
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He is also the founder of Roots Arena, a platform dedicated to supporting UK roots and culture artists by helping them promote their work and build sustainable careers.
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Altogether, he has spent almost 20 years supporting businesses, entrepreneurs, and community initiatives.
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Alongside his professional work, Finbar brings a deeply personal perspective to today's conversation.
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He has lived with bipolar disorder for most of his adult life, giving him first-hand experience of the realities of living with an often misunderstood invisible condition.
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Mental health has also touched his family profoundly.
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In 1988, his father, who also lived with bipolar disorder, died by suicide.
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That experience has shaped Finbar's understanding of resilience, compassion, and the importance of breaking the silence surrounding mental illness.
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Today, FinBarr is passionate about creating spaces where people feel safe to talk openly about invisible health, challenge stigma, and recognize that a diagnosis does not define a person's potential or contribution.
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His work, both professionally and personally, reflects a commitment to supporting the well-being of individuals, communities, and the planet.
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Of all the roles he has held, however, the one he values most is being a loving father of four.
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Welcome to the show, Finbar.
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We're so excited to have you here today.
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Likewise, really excited to, yeah.
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Awesome.
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Well, first I'd just love to know a little bit more about how you've navigated career, life, all of that so far with an invisible illness.
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Um, in all honesty it's been a challenge at times.
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So with bipolar, you have half of the time technically down and half the time up.
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But um as I've got older, the down periods have been longer, so significant portions of my life to the point that it's not doesn't feel like bipolar always, it feels like another thing, summing polar, because I have three-quarters of the time or more down and then a small amount up.
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Um the last down was four and a half months.
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I've just recently gone up, but for about it was 16 months and 12 months.
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So I've spent a lot of my adult life depressed, and when I'm depressed, my brain functions differently, so I'm less eloquent, I'm less confident, I'm more introverted, I struggle with remembering things.
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Um and uh yeah, my work can be difficult.
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Uh it can really feel overwhelming.
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And sometimes when I'm up I make commitments at work that I struggle to fulfil when I'm down.
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Uh on the flip side, when with bipolar, there's a saying about touched by God, you know, that when you're up you do feel invincible, and I am much more um effective and powerful at what I do, and I n I I've even noticed in the last month or so since I've been up, my coaching sessions are better, the workshops are better, everything I do is better.
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Uh I mean, as an adult, I think my f career started after graduating at the University of East Anglia and I worked in a charity uh and at that point my mental health wasn't too bad, but there was definitely signs of stuff coming on, and it was only really hitting about 30 where it it was so obvious that I had to do something about it and uh and but I uh this was long before I got diagnosed with it, but I knew from my father and other people with bipolar that's what I was experiencing.
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Um so managing work has been a challenge, but also I think the upside makes me really good at the roles I've done.
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Um and your question was also per managing personal life or yeah, absolutely, yeah, sort of any aspect of it.
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Um when I'm down, uh I'm not so good at the personal life, so things start happening.
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So my house is less tidy, I eat less well, uh, work, things can pile up or work, but so I go back to personal.
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Uh my sleep is affected, so when I'm uh down I sleep for a long amount of time, but I dream throughout the whole time.
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Uh and that means I have no rest, so I wake up tired after eight to twelve hours sleep, and I can sleep a long time when I'm depressed, and my bed feels like the only safe space sometimes.
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Uh when I'm up my sleep changes, so uh I ha can't sleep for as long.
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So uh currently I'm doing between four and six hours a night, and when I went up it was down to two and a bit to three hours, so Wow.
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And w and with bipolar sleep, if you don't get sleep right, it can s push you into hypermania, which is when it becomes more dangerous.
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So yeah, sleep's affected.
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Um I've been on medication for years, and I don't know how much of what I feel is due to the medication, but I've had side effects like I've put on a lot of weight since I've been on medication.
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And there may be other side effects I'm not aware of.
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Um it when I'm down I find it harder to be a parent uh and a friend.
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Uh I feel less good about myself and particularly my interactions, I'm critical of them.
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Uh I think my kids know how I still love them as much all the time, but um I definitely don't feel as affected as a parent.
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Um so it's there's things I've learned over the year that help me with my well-being when I'm down or up.
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So I kind of try to practice things that help me.
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So I love to walk in nature.
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I find that whenever I'm in nature I feel better than I did before.
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Uh I like to swim, particularly outdoor swimming, so rivers and the sea.
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Uh I like to spend time with friends, but that's really hard when I'm down.
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I don't reach out always or arrange things.
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So but when I can, I and I I always maintain some social contact, and I think that's really important when you're struggling to have some human contact because isolation is very damaging.
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Um what else is there?
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So self-talk.
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Um, I've had quite a lot of therapy over the years regarding my dad's suicide and other things that have happened since.
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Uh, and one of the things I used to do is a lot more self-degrading talk.
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I'm not pretty enough, I'm not intelligent enough, I'm not good enough, not nice enough, pairing, all these stupid messages, and I've stopped that.
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Um, therapy in the last three, four years, I st that language doesn't exist in my vocabulary anymore.
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So I'm kinder to myself, and I think I think it's really important with invisible illnesses this thing about self-love and self-kindness, about having your the expectations of yourself to be the same as anyone who's well is an unfair expectation that you're gonna beat yourself up because you're not maybe as successful as some of your colleagues or as not, or life's not going as well.
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I put inverted commas according to the game of life.
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So progress might not be as easy and you might struggle.
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And I think with that in mind, it's easy to beat yourself up, and so self-talk is really important, but with that comes self-love, so eating well.
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Um, since I've been up, I've changed my diet again on intermittent fasting, which is good for gut health.
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Um, but intermittent fasting means I've got less appetite, so I eat smaller portions, I'm eating much healthier food, I've stopped going to takeaways.
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Um so yeah, diet's really important, loads more salads and stuff.
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Um yoga I've practiced throughout down and up, and it's really helpful.
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And I think sometimes we can get caught up in our thoughts, so we're human doings, not human beings.
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And I think being present is something I struggle when I'm up, but also when I'm down, I'm in my head a lot, and yoga brings me back into my body.
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And I've been told exercise is really good.
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I haven't done exercise, but I know for everyone's well-being exercise is good.
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Sounds stupid, water, staying hydrated.
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Not at all, yeah.
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No, no, it's kind of uh I always think the giveaway is when you go to a toilet and if it's too yellow, you know you need more.
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Um yeah, self-care is really important, so doing things that are good for you.
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Um, and that's how and I I guess the other thing has been my kids have got me through.
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I mean, not everyone's got the joy of being a parent for whatever reason.
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Uh and when I've got I mean, I pre-medication I had suicidal thoughts, not intentions, but suicidal thoughts, and that was quite scary as a parent.
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But they're the light and the love of my life, and they they get me through the hard stars, uh, yeah, holding on to what they bring and how important they are.
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And also, uh I don't want to do what my dad did and leave my kids.
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So, yeah, they're my rock, and then my mum, who's amazing, and my brothers and my friends, so I'm very lucky that my kids, yeah, definitely are so important.
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So it's affected me personally, professionally in every way.
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My whole life is shaped by bipolar.
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But I like to say I live with bipolar rather than I suffer with bipolar, or I don't talk about it as an illness or whatever it is an illness.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and I think sometimes how we frame things can help us in terms of how we deal with it.
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Absolutely, yeah.
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I think I think language is one of those things that is really important because it can make the difference with I think sort of fully identifying or feeling like our whole life is trapped up in and defined by our illness versus it's something like you said we live with, and sort of it's almost alongside.
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It's like sort of talking about as if it's a roommate almost, you know.
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Yeah, and I think labels can be very restrictive, and especially in kind of medical mental health diagnosis.
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There's a book, I can't remember what it's called, but they kind of put you in a bracket if you've got this and a bracket if you've got that.
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But actually, those those labels can be helpful and trying to understand yourself, but there's diversity within everything.
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I'm part of a bipolar support group, and there's such diversity within the group.
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Some of us like our ups, some of us like our downs.
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Uh, some people have very long periods of being happy and well, and short periods down, vice versa.
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Uh so there's huge diversity with them.
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I think sometimes the label, there's so much stigma associated to it that there's negative connotations with those labels.
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So the more we can own it and find an empowering way to talk about it, yeah.
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I agree, totally what's needed.
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Absolutely.
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And I think I think you've touched on something really important here, which is the diversity, even in sort of the same quote-unquote label of invisible illness, so in this case bipolar, but um, like so I live with Lyme and I know that's something that manifests very, very differently for different people.
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And it's part of the reason why I wanted to have a show where people with all sorts of conditions could come on and talk about stuff, because I think that there's incredible diversity in how these conditions affect us, and like you said, even what parts of the condition an individual might find more manageable or less manageable.
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And I think there's also something in the fact, too, though, that like I heard a lot in your story that resonated with me of, you know, if I replaced sort of your version of the down with me having a lime flare, it's like I feel a lot of the same things of oh, like I'm less social, um, I feel less able to take care of myself in the same ways.
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A lot of these, the the ways it affects sort of the practicalities of your life are very, very similar.
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And so I think I think that listeners are probably going to see a lot of themselves in that story, regardless of what their condition is.
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Yeah, and I talk very openly about my mental health.
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Uh and I I know when I first started my mum was worried about how that would affect my career and how I might be viewed.
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But the feedback I've had is it so firstly, loads of people who bipolar have reached out to me, my friends, and said, Hey, did you know I'm bipolar too?
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But no idea.
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Uh, but secondly, other people who've been struggling, whether they have a mental health illness or they've just had a hard time, have really resonated with the messages.
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Yeah, and largely about how do we manage this in a positive way as much as possible.
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So, yeah, I think there's a collective experience and there's diversity within that, but there's definitely shared things, you know.
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In terms of well-being, there's some great research by New Economic Foundation, they came up with five steps to well-being, probably the best thing I've ever seen in terms of someone commissioning research.
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Uh and they identified five things, so connect kind of that means with people and yourself, be active, so that's being physical, it doesn't have to be sport, but movement.
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Uh keep learning so our brains are happier when we're learning something, and that doesn't have to be when you go into university, it might be you're learning a language or Duolingo.
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Uh give, so the opportunity to help others, so whether that might be give your time as a volunteer or give your time to say hello to an old lady, or um or give a gift, uh, or say nice things to people.
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Uh, and the last one is we've done connect, sorry.
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Uh we've done uh keep no, yeah, keep learning, be active.
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What's the fifth one?
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It's escaped me right now.
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Uh but uh That's okay, I'll link it in the show notes so people can go find that.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I think so.
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If you're suffering illness, there's kind of a nice framework of things that we can latch on to and try and do bits of those and finding out I I feel like it's a like a buffet menu of finding out what's good for you, and then the metaphor eating more of that kind of consuming to do the things that work for you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it's sort of finding your own sort of life prescription and sort of way through that.
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And I also want to say, too, like I think anyone who knows you is so appreciative of how how open you are about this because it really does make I think other people a lot more comfortable to share and sort of bring those things into the space with you.
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And I think I think a lot of people also have the same worry that you talked about too, is how is this going to affect how I'm perceived, whether that's in my career with colleagues, with bosses, whether that's even with you know, family, friends, like I think there is very much a fear of, oh, am I not going to be taken seriously?
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Um, I think, you know, as a young person who's sort of in that entering the workforce phase, there's also um both among me and a lot of my peers, there's that fear of if I talk about this, if I post about this, if you know, if um if I share about this, would that affect my chances of getting hired or getting promoted?
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And yeah, I think it's definitely it's a real fear.
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But on the flip side of that, when we do talk about it and we do share it, what I've noticed, especially along this journey of starting this podcast and this project, is so many people who I ended up talking with this about, not at all because I thought they had an invisible illness, but just we were just chatting about where we were up to, and I ended up sharing.
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And they end up saying, Oh, I have an invisible illness, like you know, I have lupus, I have, you know, um chronic fatigue, I have migraines or whatever it ended up being.
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And you realize that this is a much more universal experience than you might have thought, and you start to feel less lone that way.
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Uh uh so yeah, I think the challenge is invisible i i in the nature of it.
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We don't know.
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And I think it's quite hard sometimes.
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So I think there's two sides.
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One is reaching out can be difficult.
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So whether you're talking about it on social media or speaking to your family, that can be difficult and you're worried about how you're going to be perceived or received.
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But then for other people to reach in.
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So if you don't tell people you have an invisible illness, they're less uh empowered to help you.
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So uh I'm quite I've done a number of l interviews and live feeds about my bipolar and I'll talk about the need to reach in, and my friends know that if I stop messaging and don't go to things, they need to check in with me to say how it is.
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So I think yeah, uh it's important to vocalise, but I know it's really hard.
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Um and I think family can also be um I don't know the right word for this, but find it difficult when you disclose your uh illness because lots of them may have stigma associated with them and especially from medical conditions.
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And the concern that they don't the news is not good news generally with all invisible illness, it's an illness by its nature.
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So um yeah, I think there can be concern.
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I don't know, other people who've been through diagnosis for others finding difficult reactions because I think nobody wants to hear that news for their kids or their grandkids or friends.
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We all want the people we love to be healthy and yeah.
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And I think most people who I mention about uh my illness uh are receptive, but I think some people don't know what to do with it, so it's a bit like you've told them you've got leprosy or something, you're kind of a bit cautious of it and don't know quite how to handle it.
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Um but I think as a young person I think it takes a lot of courage to speak about it openly.
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I don't think and and if one has to do it at the right time.
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I mean I'm way more vocal than anyone else I know with mental health illness generally, like locally, and that's that's me, my my nature.
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I like to be open and talk and be frank.
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It's not right for everyone, and it's not right for everyone yet.
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Um, so I think it's about navigating that journey and doing what's comfortable, or maybe uncomfortable, but not too bad.
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I think it is uncomfortable about uncomfortable things.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Were there any ways when you are reaching out to friends or family for support too?
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Is there have have there been ways of communicating that you've developed or things that have made it easier for you for you to reach out or maybe even for them to help you when you've been going through tough moments?
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Yeah, so I think a few things sometimes uh I just put, are you free to talk?
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Or would you like to come over for dinner or can I come and see you?
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Or I'm not always when I'm down, I'm not always that great at communication, so something's short and sweet, and so that is useful.
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I find voice notes are quite good.
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I I I think I'm more open when I'm speaking than I'm writing.
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I think I kind of edit my writing in some ways.
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So voice notes are quite a good way to reach out.
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I also think you need like real rocks, real allies.
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So I have safe people of I mean I've got my family where I'm very lucky, but I've got two friends I can think of who are my rocks, and I can speak to them however I'm at.
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And we have a reciprocal relationship, we talk about everything, and if something bad happens, we're there for each other, and always on the end of the phone.
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Um so I think having good people around you is really important.
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I think you have to be explicit, so you have to tell people you're struggling, and you have to ask for what you need, you have to make a request.
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Um and I also think you need to be able to tell people when it's not right.
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Um, part of non-violent communication, which I love, is saying this thing happened objectively, so when you haven't called me for the last three months, it made me feel, and you talk about what feeling is.
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Uh then you talk about your needs and you make a request of how you'd like it to be in the future.
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So I think helping people, like no one comes with an instruction manager, so people don't need to know how to handle us, and not only are we all unique, but we've got this other invisible illness makes us different as well.
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So I think being clear about your needs and giving feedback when what we some things aren't helpful, some people do things really good intentions, but it's not what you need at that time.
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Yeah, like I've had people to tell me why you're on meds, and I think I don't want to swear go elsewhere is the polite way.
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Um but yeah, who are you to tell me?
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So, um yeah, so they're useful.
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:59.759
Um I think also uh reaching out when you're good so that there's a reciproci and uh you're if you're generous when you can be generous, I think it means that other people are more willing to do it, and that doesn't matter.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:08.319
Maybe some people are I know with things like chronic fatigue set or ME that sometimes people's energy levels are so low that's just not possible.
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.079
But I guess if you can, that's something to think about.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:31.920
Um I think video calls are quite good uh as well, just to say that I think listen to someone that text is the worst, phone calls are better, but video calls are great because you get eye to eye contact, and I think one of the things I didn't mention before is I get very lonely.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.039
I'm one of the most I've got more phones than anyone I know, but I can be the loneliest person I know.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:41.359
Um so I think video contact is really good.
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:49.039
Um but it's hard sometimes reaching out, and I'm like I'm talking all this stuff and I'm guilty myself of in my depressed phases.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:57.119
Like I have a friend I meet up with once a week, whatever, but then I didn't have hardly any other social activity during that time.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.279
So yeah.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:01.519
Trying your best to reach out.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:14.160
Um but also it's you have to encourage others to reach in, and I think this whole thing about when people commit suicide, so people saying, I wish you'd talk to me and let me know how you're doing, it's like, well, when was the last time you called them?
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:32.799
So I think reaching in is just as important or more important than reaching out, but you need to let people know that's what you need, so and give people signs so they they know when it's shit and can come and rescue in some way or at least I always think of it as a bit like buoyancy.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:48.960
So depression is like being under water, you can't breathe, you can't feel, you can't do loads of things, and being around good people just gives you enough buoyancy to get your mouth above water and take some air again, and even better, sometimes they lift you up.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.440
Um but yeah, yeah, that's my thoughts.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:09.680
Absolutely, and I think I think there's something really important in that too, for if there's anyone listening to this who maybe doesn't have an invisible illness themselves, but who loves people who do, of this idea that you don't necessarily have to have all the answers to support someone.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.799
You just have to let them know that you're there and keep reaching out.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:20.799
Because I think, like you were saying, sometimes I think it can make people feel uncomfortable in a way if you if you're open and honest and you're like, I'm struggling with this.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:31.440
And I think sometimes people pull away because they don't know how to help you, or sometimes maybe they have a belief of they don't want to make it worse or say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:45.680
And in my experience, you know, I don't know if this will hold true for everyone, but in my experience, someone reaching in and just saying, Hey, like, I don't know what's going to be helpful for you right now, but I want you to know that I'm here is huge.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.920
And like just having like presence really is the number one thing with any of this.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:51.599
Yeah, I agree 100%.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:09.599
And I think when I did my coaching training, they tell you that everyone's whole, creative, and resourceful, and given time and space and a bit of support, they can work out what's right for them, and that presence is all always needed, but I think also some open questioning can help.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:11.599
Like, is there anything I can do to help?
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:13.680
Yeah, those sort of open-ended invitations.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.640
We generally know what's good for us, you know.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:20.799
We've all lived as long as we've lived so far, and we're the only experts on us.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:21.920
That's very true.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:31.440
And so, yeah, help people tap into that resourcefulness and creativity to develop solutions that work for them.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.759
But yeah, just being present.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:38.480
And I sometimes joke that on birthdays the present is presence.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:42.799
And I don't care about gifts, but I do care about seeing people I love.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:56.799
Yeah, no, and I gen I think it's one of the best gifts that we can give anyone is our full undivided attention, especially in today's world, you know, like we're all like energizer bunnies bouncing around from task to task, and then phones and social media, and it can all feel so crazy.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:06.960
And I think one of the most amazing things that we can do for someone else and also for ourselves is sit down with one person, like look them in the eyes and ask them, like, how are you doing?
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.960
Like genuinely, because I think a lot of people don't get that.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:20.079
And I think that that's probably feeding into a lot of the loneliness and the loneliness that's exacerbated if you have a invisible health condition for sure.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:24.720
Yeah, and I think just kind of playing on what you said, I think presence is not just important.
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.119
I think the whole thing like eye-to-eye contact and being there and not checking your phone.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:38.799
Yeah, I also think as individuals living with invisible illness, part of the challenge is being present with yourself and not being caught up in your thought processes.
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:48.240
So whether that's meditation or yoga or swimming or doing something that makes you stop thinking and start feeling.
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:50.640
Um it's a lot healthier.
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:58.640
We emotions are just feelings moving around the body, and if we tap into them, they're a lot easier to manage than the thoughts.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:06.319
Um, so I think presence in others, but also presence in yourself is kind of really an important thing to learn if you've got an invisible illness.
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.960
I mean, I think it's good for everyone, but particularly for uh those of us who do have invisible illnesses.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:12.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:19.920
I find when you're able to be in the present, sort of pull it back to what am I feeling now, it can also prevent sort of the thought spyle that can go on for me.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:27.200
It's like, I know if I'm in a flare, it's very easy for my thoughts to go round and round in a circle, and I'm like, oh, what if this gets worse and what if it goes that way?
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:32.079
And what if, you know, I need more treatment or you know, whatever the thought ends up being.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:39.839
I think if I am able to sort of have awareness in that moment, pull it back and say, okay, this is just what's happening right now.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:46.720
I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, but I can really pay attention to what's going on right now and do my best with right now.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:51.519
Yeah, and that whole thing about not take it day by day, but take it minute by minute.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.799
Nothing tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, and so we have no idea.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.960
We might not even be alive, we might be feeling better, we might be feeling worse.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:10.799
So we've just got to focus on where we are now, and I think with that, there's also I I had a conversation with one of my two rocks uh over the weekend, and she's really been struggling.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:25.039
Uh, and we were talking together about she was lying in bed at a time, hadn't uh managed to do anything that day, was beating herself up for not doing her academic work or she hadn't been cooking for herself and she hadn't been swimming.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.880
And I just we talked together and I was like, just take the afternoon off working and do these things again.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:39.599
And when I spoke to her this morning, she said, you know, I'm better, uh, just a bit, and it's it's small steps and like again that not beating ourselves up.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:43.920
If you're going from zero to one or point five, that's a huge thing.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:51.359
You don't have to get to ten, you don't have to feel ecstatic over the world, you just have to try and feel a bit better than being in the bottom of the world.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:29:06.559
Absolutely, and I I think too, going back to some of the stuff you said about yeah, self-talk and being able to be kind to ourselves, because I think it's one of those things that you know we all sort of know we need to do it, of like we know we need to be kind to ourselves, we know we need to have self-love.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:18.079
And then I don't know about anybody else, but in those moments, it's so hard for me because I feel especially that I'm like, I should be working harder, I shouldn't be this tired, I need to do stuff even if I'm tired.
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:30.960
And there's it can it can feel you can end up in a bit of a shame spiral about it, even if there's a part of you that knows this part of this is a bit out of my control, like this is a health, there's health factors at play here.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:36.240
But it can be very hard in those moments, and it sounds like you've been able to sort of work through that a little bit.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.680
I feel really fortunate.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:45.680
I had this breakthrough, and I don't know if it was a therapist or me, something happened, and I don't even know if it happened that slowly.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.559
I just noticed that I wasn't doing this one.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.599
And when I speak to others about it, they're not jealous, but like they're wow, you don't say shit things about yourself.
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.880
Like, not really.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.920
Occasionally, very rarely, sometimes I might have a thought, but very rarely.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:08.319
Uh, and I wish I knew the recipe to help others with it, because I think it's not just for those living with a challenge, but actually everyone, everyone's challenge, aren't they?
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:08.640
Yeah.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.440
In some way.
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.440
Uh some of us more severely than others.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.200
But that kind of self-talk you're so important.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:21.519
Um Do you have any idea of like what some of the ingredients might have been, even if you don't know the full recipe for that?
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:30.160
I think I suppose the conversations we were having were about some of that self-talk and kind of being curious about it, like where does that come from?
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.920
I think the other thing is thinking about how would you be speaking to someone else in your shoes or the younger you.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:49.759
Uh and I think I remember one of the sessions she was asking me to tell my younger self what the message I wanted to hear, we wanted to communicate.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:31:00.079
And when it's in that case, you can't not have compassion for a young kid who's just lost his father uh through suicide as well.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:08.240
And so it was interesting, kind of weird talking to yourself as a young person, kind of a bit out there, but that might have been part of it.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:15.680
I think just being able to reflect on like kicking yourself when you're down, like the world does that in any case.
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:17.119
Why would you practice it?
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:29.119
But I have literally have no idea how the changes and I wish I could tell others because I like I like to share anything that's helped me, and I have no bloody idea what what we did together, but something shifted.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:39.519
Well, it sounds like there was something I think in that being able to talk to yourself not only as the you you are now but as your younger self and as you would also talk to a friend.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:50.799
And I think for me, I mean, I believe everyone has a mini haroshum at some point in their formative life, some form of trauma, so it could just be bullying or it could be great loss, or so.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.880
And uh, I was the last person, as far as I know, to speak to my father.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:01.359
The I was at my grandma's the night before he took his life, and we my grandma spoke to him and then I had a little chat with him.
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:06.480
And for years I beat myself up, like what could I say to stop it?
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:18.559
And I that's a hard thing to carry for whatever, but I think subconsciously there's a message by my dad killing himself, like uh he doesn't laugh at me enough to stay here.
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:36.640
And so I think I'd internalised that behaviour and that thinking and some of my behaviour after he died, I you know, I experimented with drugs, uh I've eaten bad food, I've done other things, smoked, things that aren't good for me.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.720
And I think that's all about self-love.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.880
I think if you truly love yourself, you don't speak to yourself badly and you don't do bad habits for you, you know.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.680
And I think it's hard to really love yourself.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:50.400
I think liking yourself is a good starting place.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.720
But if we could have that self-so I think it was a reflecting around self-love as well.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:28.000
Yeah, and maybe even what you said too made me think of starting with compassion, of like being able to, you know, maybe it's not like a sort of like a relationships, you know, it doesn't have to be romance and fireworks and all that at once, but if if we can sort of start with this curiosity and this genuine interest and this compassion, especially when we've been through things, especially like what you shared, like being able to sort of lean into ourselves almost like we want other people to lean into us and go, hey, like this must have been really hard, and sort of yeah, speaking to ourselves as if we're another person that we want to support and get to know.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.200
And compassion's like the key to this, you know.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.599
No one chose to have an invisible illness.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:34.720
No, not at all.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:44.240
And if it was someone else, you'd feel sorry for them because they've been given an extra shit card of shit hand of cards, so I get that right.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:53.440
Um, and so yeah, if we can practice compassion, and I think also when we practice compassion towards ourselves, it makes it easier to practice compassion to others.
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:54.559
A hundred percent, yeah.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:09.360
I mean you send it out there, and so I think I don't think I've mentioned this, but I feel like when you're depressed, you're like an empty jug, an empty vessel with nothing to give in.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.000
It's not like when you're having your flare-ups, it's similar.
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:12.960
Very similar, yeah.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:17.760
So well-being, steps to well-being is kind of like filling up that jug.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.960
Uh, and part of that's about being compassionate, isn't it?
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.480
Um yeah.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:23.440
Absolutely.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:35.119
Yeah, I think that's that's a wonderful way to describe it is when we are in those moments, we have to just do those little even if they're tiny, even if it's a teaspoon of filling up that jug, it's it really is those little things.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.920
And I mean when there's more in the jug, you can share it with others.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:46.480
So uh it's hard sometimes when I'm really down to be there for others how I'd like to be, but when I'm looking after myself, I can give a bit more.
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:46.880
Yeah.
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.800
You know, it might not be much like you say a teaspoon, but it's something.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:35:00.159
Yeah, and we can give in ways that you know, like it might not be as much as we want to give, but if we can just give in those little ways, like it's you know, maybe said it's a phone call instead of going out to dinner.
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:01.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:07.280
Or even a text of like, hey, you know, I know I've been, you know, a little out of it recently, but I just want to say I really appreciate you.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:12.480
Like those little tiny things really are what strengthen and keep those relationships really strong.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.000
Yeah, I've started something recently called Eulogies for the Living.
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:22.079
So uh I've experienced far too much death in my life, and me and my colleague Sophie were talking about the other day.
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:30.480
So Finba, you know lots of people, but you've had more death in your life than anyone I know, and it's regular, and also a lot of them are through suicide.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.519
Uh and s I I I how's this sound not a bit fast?
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.840
I I like a good funeral.
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:51.199
Um I don't like the fact people are dead, particularly when they die early, but I like I think they can be beautiful celebrations of a life, but the stupid thing is the person who died never got to hear it.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:51.679
Yeah.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:58.000
And so my eulogies for the living, I've only just died, I've done one for my mum and one for my daughters, but I'm gonna keep on doing them for a while.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:05.519
I sort of celebrating people while they're alive, and that's the kind of bit where you're talking about just tell people you love them and why you love them.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.920
Uh, and so I'm hoping it's gonna go viral, but uh so far it's just me doing it.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:16.400
Oh my god, well, to any listener, any listener who's hearing this, I think we need to make this go viral because I think that's a phenomenal idea.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:23.280
So I'm gonna link that in the show notes and let's see if we can make this viral because I think that would be the dose of positivity and love that the world needs right now.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.320
Definitely, yeah.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:25.199
Oh my gosh.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:29.199
Well, I think that's probably one of the perfect notes to wrap up on.
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:40.079
But before we end this, I am starting a tradition with a Pika Talks interviews called Final Out of Pocket Question, which is where I ask the interviewee a very random question.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:42.000
So this can be absolutely anything.
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.159
I've not told Finbar what the question is.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.119
She hasn't.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.079
I've not.
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.760
And we're gonna see how he reacts.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:48.639
Are you ready, Finbar?
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:49.280
I'm ready.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:49.840
Okay.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:55.679
If you had to be reincarnated as a kitchen appliance, what appliance would you pick and why?
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:57.440
Ooh, good question.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:59.679
I need to think for a moment.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:04.719
It might be a wooden spatula.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:06.079
A wooden spatula?
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.239
I mean, I'd hate to come back as something plastic and metal, so it's a bit harsh.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.039
But wooden spatulas you can use in any pan.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:20.000
Uh and yeah, multi-versatile, you can make a cake with it, you can stir your dinner with it, you can get a bit of quiche out with it.
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:22.719
It's kind of really practical.
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.760
Uh, if I go camping, I always take a spatula with me, so it feels like an essential kitchen tool.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:28.400
Absolutely.
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.280
So versatile.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:29.599
Yeah.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.960
And and I like natural materials, so the thought that someone could enjoy holding me and using me.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.719
That sounds a bit weird, but but yeah, it's tactile.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.119
Yeah.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.079
Uh so yeah.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.440
And wood's beautiful, so yeah, come back as beautiful, tactile, and useful sounds amazing.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:46.719
Well, here you have it.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:49.840
Fan marble reincarnate as a beautiful tactile wooden spoon.
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:52.320
Maybe we can get a little engraving on the spent spatula.
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.679
How can I spatula, much more of a style extended?
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.559
Yeah, you can flip things, you can stir things, all sorts of stuff.
00:37:58.719 --> 00:37:59.440
Oh my gosh.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:00.400
That's a phenomenal answer.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:05.679
I'm I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad you took that as seriously as I did, because I think it's a very, I think it's a very important question to answer.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.039
Yeah, definitely.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:07.920
Awesome.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:11.599
Well, thank you so much, Finbar, for coming on the show and for sharing your story.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.480
It was really, it was truly a pleasure to have this interview.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:18.159
And to all the listeners at home, thank you so much for tuning in.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.079
And we will be back soon with another episode of Epika Talks.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.480
Yeah, thank you, and hope you enjoy it.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.400
Thank you for listening to Epika Talks.
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:41.440
The content shared in this podcast, including by the hosts and guests, is for informational purposes only and does not provide medical, mental health, or other professional or healthcare advice.
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:47.920
Opinions of guests are their own, and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:55.199
Always consult a qualified professional regarding your individual circumstances before making changes to your healthcare or lifestyle.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:00.400
Any actions you take based on information shared in this podcast are taken at your own discretion and
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:44.479
Hello everyone, and welcome to the very first ever interview episode of Epika Talks.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:49.679
I'm delighted to have our first ever guest with us today, and that guest is Finbar Carter.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:01:00.880
FinBar Carter is a qualified teacher, NLP business practitioner, and CTI coactive coach with additional training in process-oriented psychology and nonviolent communication.
00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:09.840
Throughout his career, he has combined education, coaching, and entrepreneurship to help people navigate challenges, unlock their potential, and create positive change.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:19.040
He currently works as a student enterprise officer at the University of East Anglia, where he supports students and graduates to develop business and social enterprises with purpose.
00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:31.519
He has also been involved in his family's business, Rebel Line Sound System, since the age of 18, helping to bring authentic roots reggae music to audiences around Norfolk and across the UK and Europe.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:40.640
He is also the founder of Roots Arena, a platform dedicated to supporting UK roots and culture artists by helping them promote their work and build sustainable careers.
00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:47.280
Altogether, he has spent almost 20 years supporting businesses, entrepreneurs, and community initiatives.
00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:52.879
Alongside his professional work, Finbar brings a deeply personal perspective to today's conversation.
00:01:53.120 --> 00:02:02.000
He has lived with bipolar disorder for most of his adult life, giving him first-hand experience of the realities of living with an often misunderstood invisible condition.
00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:05.280
Mental health has also touched his family profoundly.
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In 1988, his father, who also lived with bipolar disorder, died by suicide.
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That experience has shaped Finbar's understanding of resilience, compassion, and the importance of breaking the silence surrounding mental illness.
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Today, FinBarr is passionate about creating spaces where people feel safe to talk openly about invisible health, challenge stigma, and recognize that a diagnosis does not define a person's potential or contribution.
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His work, both professionally and personally, reflects a commitment to supporting the well-being of individuals, communities, and the planet.
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Of all the roles he has held, however, the one he values most is being a loving father of four.
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Welcome to the show, Finbar.
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We're so excited to have you here today.
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Likewise, really excited to, yeah.
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Awesome.
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Well, first I'd just love to know a little bit more about how you've navigated career, life, all of that so far with an invisible illness.
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Um, in all honesty it's been a challenge at times.
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So with bipolar, you have half of the time technically down and half the time up.
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But um as I've got older, the down periods have been longer, so significant portions of my life to the point that it's not doesn't feel like bipolar always, it feels like another thing, summing polar, because I have three-quarters of the time or more down and then a small amount up.
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Um the last down was four and a half months.
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I've just recently gone up, but for about it was 16 months and 12 months.
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So I've spent a lot of my adult life depressed, and when I'm depressed, my brain functions differently, so I'm less eloquent, I'm less confident, I'm more introverted, I struggle with remembering things.
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Um and uh yeah, my work can be difficult.
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Uh it can really feel overwhelming.
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And sometimes when I'm up I make commitments at work that I struggle to fulfil when I'm down.
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Uh on the flip side, when with bipolar, there's a saying about touched by God, you know, that when you're up you do feel invincible, and I am much more um effective and powerful at what I do, and I n I I've even noticed in the last month or so since I've been up, my coaching sessions are better, the workshops are better, everything I do is better.
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Uh I mean, as an adult, I think my f career started after graduating at the University of East Anglia and I worked in a charity uh and at that point my mental health wasn't too bad, but there was definitely signs of stuff coming on, and it was only really hitting about 30 where it it was so obvious that I had to do something about it and uh and but I uh this was long before I got diagnosed with it, but I knew from my father and other people with bipolar that's what I was experiencing.
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Um so managing work has been a challenge, but also I think the upside makes me really good at the roles I've done.
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Um and your question was also per managing personal life or yeah, absolutely, yeah, sort of any aspect of it.
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Um when I'm down, uh I'm not so good at the personal life, so things start happening.
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So my house is less tidy, I eat less well, uh, work, things can pile up or work, but so I go back to personal.
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Uh my sleep is affected, so when I'm uh down I sleep for a long amount of time, but I dream throughout the whole time.
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Uh and that means I have no rest, so I wake up tired after eight to twelve hours sleep, and I can sleep a long time when I'm depressed, and my bed feels like the only safe space sometimes.
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Uh when I'm up my sleep changes, so uh I ha can't sleep for as long.
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So uh currently I'm doing between four and six hours a night, and when I went up it was down to two and a bit to three hours, so Wow.
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And w and with bipolar sleep, if you don't get sleep right, it can s push you into hypermania, which is when it becomes more dangerous.
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So yeah, sleep's affected.
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Um I've been on medication for years, and I don't know how much of what I feel is due to the medication, but I've had side effects like I've put on a lot of weight since I've been on medication.
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And there may be other side effects I'm not aware of.
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Um it when I'm down I find it harder to be a parent uh and a friend.
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Uh I feel less good about myself and particularly my interactions, I'm critical of them.
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Uh I think my kids know how I still love them as much all the time, but um I definitely don't feel as affected as a parent.
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Um so it's there's things I've learned over the year that help me with my well-being when I'm down or up.
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So I kind of try to practice things that help me.
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So I love to walk in nature.
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I find that whenever I'm in nature I feel better than I did before.
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Uh I like to swim, particularly outdoor swimming, so rivers and the sea.
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Uh I like to spend time with friends, but that's really hard when I'm down.
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I don't reach out always or arrange things.
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So but when I can, I and I I always maintain some social contact, and I think that's really important when you're struggling to have some human contact because isolation is very damaging.
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Um what else is there?
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So self-talk.
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Um, I've had quite a lot of therapy over the years regarding my dad's suicide and other things that have happened since.
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Uh, and one of the things I used to do is a lot more self-degrading talk.
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I'm not pretty enough, I'm not intelligent enough, I'm not good enough, not nice enough, pairing, all these stupid messages, and I've stopped that.
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Um, therapy in the last three, four years, I st that language doesn't exist in my vocabulary anymore.
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So I'm kinder to myself, and I think I think it's really important with invisible illnesses this thing about self-love and self-kindness, about having your the expectations of yourself to be the same as anyone who's well is an unfair expectation that you're gonna beat yourself up because you're not maybe as successful as some of your colleagues or as not, or life's not going as well.
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I put inverted commas according to the game of life.
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So progress might not be as easy and you might struggle.
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And I think with that in mind, it's easy to beat yourself up, and so self-talk is really important, but with that comes self-love, so eating well.
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Um, since I've been up, I've changed my diet again on intermittent fasting, which is good for gut health.
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Um, but intermittent fasting means I've got less appetite, so I eat smaller portions, I'm eating much healthier food, I've stopped going to takeaways.
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Um so yeah, diet's really important, loads more salads and stuff.
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Um yoga I've practiced throughout down and up, and it's really helpful.
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And I think sometimes we can get caught up in our thoughts, so we're human doings, not human beings.
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And I think being present is something I struggle when I'm up, but also when I'm down, I'm in my head a lot, and yoga brings me back into my body.
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And I've been told exercise is really good.
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I haven't done exercise, but I know for everyone's well-being exercise is good.
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Sounds stupid, water, staying hydrated.
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Not at all, yeah.
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No, no, it's kind of uh I always think the giveaway is when you go to a toilet and if it's too yellow, you know you need more.
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Um yeah, self-care is really important, so doing things that are good for you.
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Um, and that's how and I I guess the other thing has been my kids have got me through.
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I mean, not everyone's got the joy of being a parent for whatever reason.
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Uh and when I've got I mean, I pre-medication I had suicidal thoughts, not intentions, but suicidal thoughts, and that was quite scary as a parent.
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But they're the light and the love of my life, and they they get me through the hard stars, uh, yeah, holding on to what they bring and how important they are.
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And also, uh I don't want to do what my dad did and leave my kids.
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So, yeah, they're my rock, and then my mum, who's amazing, and my brothers and my friends, so I'm very lucky that my kids, yeah, definitely are so important.
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So it's affected me personally, professionally in every way.
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My whole life is shaped by bipolar.
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But I like to say I live with bipolar rather than I suffer with bipolar, or I don't talk about it as an illness or whatever it is an illness.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and I think sometimes how we frame things can help us in terms of how we deal with it.
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Absolutely, yeah.
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I think I think language is one of those things that is really important because it can make the difference with I think sort of fully identifying or feeling like our whole life is trapped up in and defined by our illness versus it's something like you said we live with, and sort of it's almost alongside.
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It's like sort of talking about as if it's a roommate almost, you know.
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Yeah, and I think labels can be very restrictive, and especially in kind of medical mental health diagnosis.
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There's a book, I can't remember what it's called, but they kind of put you in a bracket if you've got this and a bracket if you've got that.
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But actually, those those labels can be helpful and trying to understand yourself, but there's diversity within everything.
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I'm part of a bipolar support group, and there's such diversity within the group.
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Some of us like our ups, some of us like our downs.
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Uh, some people have very long periods of being happy and well, and short periods down, vice versa.
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Uh so there's huge diversity with them.
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I think sometimes the label, there's so much stigma associated to it that there's negative connotations with those labels.
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So the more we can own it and find an empowering way to talk about it, yeah.
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I agree, totally what's needed.
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Absolutely.
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And I think I think you've touched on something really important here, which is the diversity, even in sort of the same quote-unquote label of invisible illness, so in this case bipolar, but um, like so I live with Lyme and I know that's something that manifests very, very differently for different people.
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And it's part of the reason why I wanted to have a show where people with all sorts of conditions could come on and talk about stuff, because I think that there's incredible diversity in how these conditions affect us, and like you said, even what parts of the condition an individual might find more manageable or less manageable.
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And I think there's also something in the fact, too, though, that like I heard a lot in your story that resonated with me of, you know, if I replaced sort of your version of the down with me having a lime flare, it's like I feel a lot of the same things of oh, like I'm less social, um, I feel less able to take care of myself in the same ways.
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A lot of these, the the ways it affects sort of the practicalities of your life are very, very similar.
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And so I think I think that listeners are probably going to see a lot of themselves in that story, regardless of what their condition is.
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Yeah, and I talk very openly about my mental health.
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Uh and I I know when I first started my mum was worried about how that would affect my career and how I might be viewed.
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But the feedback I've had is it so firstly, loads of people who bipolar have reached out to me, my friends, and said, Hey, did you know I'm bipolar too?
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But no idea.
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Uh, but secondly, other people who've been struggling, whether they have a mental health illness or they've just had a hard time, have really resonated with the messages.
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Yeah, and largely about how do we manage this in a positive way as much as possible.
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So, yeah, I think there's a collective experience and there's diversity within that, but there's definitely shared things, you know.
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In terms of well-being, there's some great research by New Economic Foundation, they came up with five steps to well-being, probably the best thing I've ever seen in terms of someone commissioning research.
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Uh and they identified five things, so connect kind of that means with people and yourself, be active, so that's being physical, it doesn't have to be sport, but movement.
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Uh keep learning so our brains are happier when we're learning something, and that doesn't have to be when you go into university, it might be you're learning a language or Duolingo.
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Uh give, so the opportunity to help others, so whether that might be give your time as a volunteer or give your time to say hello to an old lady, or um or give a gift, uh, or say nice things to people.
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Uh, and the last one is we've done connect, sorry.
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Uh we've done uh keep no, yeah, keep learning, be active.
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What's the fifth one?
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It's escaped me right now.
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Uh but uh That's okay, I'll link it in the show notes so people can go find that.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I think so.
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If you're suffering illness, there's kind of a nice framework of things that we can latch on to and try and do bits of those and finding out I I feel like it's a like a buffet menu of finding out what's good for you, and then the metaphor eating more of that kind of consuming to do the things that work for you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it's sort of finding your own sort of life prescription and sort of way through that.
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And I also want to say, too, like I think anyone who knows you is so appreciative of how how open you are about this because it really does make I think other people a lot more comfortable to share and sort of bring those things into the space with you.
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And I think I think a lot of people also have the same worry that you talked about too, is how is this going to affect how I'm perceived, whether that's in my career with colleagues, with bosses, whether that's even with you know, family, friends, like I think there is very much a fear of, oh, am I not going to be taken seriously?
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Um, I think, you know, as a young person who's sort of in that entering the workforce phase, there's also um both among me and a lot of my peers, there's that fear of if I talk about this, if I post about this, if you know, if um if I share about this, would that affect my chances of getting hired or getting promoted?
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And yeah, I think it's definitely it's a real fear.
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But on the flip side of that, when we do talk about it and we do share it, what I've noticed, especially along this journey of starting this podcast and this project, is so many people who I ended up talking with this about, not at all because I thought they had an invisible illness, but just we were just chatting about where we were up to, and I ended up sharing.
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And they end up saying, Oh, I have an invisible illness, like you know, I have lupus, I have, you know, um chronic fatigue, I have migraines or whatever it ended up being.
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And you realize that this is a much more universal experience than you might have thought, and you start to feel less lone that way.
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Uh uh so yeah, I think the challenge is invisible i i in the nature of it.
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We don't know.
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And I think it's quite hard sometimes.
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So I think there's two sides.
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One is reaching out can be difficult.
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So whether you're talking about it on social media or speaking to your family, that can be difficult and you're worried about how you're going to be perceived or received.
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But then for other people to reach in.
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So if you don't tell people you have an invisible illness, they're less uh empowered to help you.
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So uh I'm quite I've done a number of l interviews and live feeds about my bipolar and I'll talk about the need to reach in, and my friends know that if I stop messaging and don't go to things, they need to check in with me to say how it is.
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So I think yeah, uh it's important to vocalise, but I know it's really hard.
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Um and I think family can also be um I don't know the right word for this, but find it difficult when you disclose your uh illness because lots of them may have stigma associated with them and especially from medical conditions.
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And the concern that they don't the news is not good news generally with all invisible illness, it's an illness by its nature.
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So um yeah, I think there can be concern.
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I don't know, other people who've been through diagnosis for others finding difficult reactions because I think nobody wants to hear that news for their kids or their grandkids or friends.
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We all want the people we love to be healthy and yeah.
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And I think most people who I mention about uh my illness uh are receptive, but I think some people don't know what to do with it, so it's a bit like you've told them you've got leprosy or something, you're kind of a bit cautious of it and don't know quite how to handle it.
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Um but I think as a young person I think it takes a lot of courage to speak about it openly.
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I don't think and and if one has to do it at the right time.
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I mean I'm way more vocal than anyone else I know with mental health illness generally, like locally, and that's that's me, my my nature.
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I like to be open and talk and be frank.
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It's not right for everyone, and it's not right for everyone yet.
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Um, so I think it's about navigating that journey and doing what's comfortable, or maybe uncomfortable, but not too bad.
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I think it is uncomfortable about uncomfortable things.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Were there any ways when you are reaching out to friends or family for support too?
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Is there have have there been ways of communicating that you've developed or things that have made it easier for you for you to reach out or maybe even for them to help you when you've been going through tough moments?
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Yeah, so I think a few things sometimes uh I just put, are you free to talk?
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Or would you like to come over for dinner or can I come and see you?
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Or I'm not always when I'm down, I'm not always that great at communication, so something's short and sweet, and so that is useful.
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I find voice notes are quite good.
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I I I think I'm more open when I'm speaking than I'm writing.
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I think I kind of edit my writing in some ways.
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So voice notes are quite a good way to reach out.
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I also think you need like real rocks, real allies.
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So I have safe people of I mean I've got my family where I'm very lucky, but I've got two friends I can think of who are my rocks, and I can speak to them however I'm at.
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And we have a reciprocal relationship, we talk about everything, and if something bad happens, we're there for each other, and always on the end of the phone.
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Um so I think having good people around you is really important.
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I think you have to be explicit, so you have to tell people you're struggling, and you have to ask for what you need, you have to make a request.
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Um and I also think you need to be able to tell people when it's not right.
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Um, part of non-violent communication, which I love, is saying this thing happened objectively, so when you haven't called me for the last three months, it made me feel, and you talk about what feeling is.
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Uh then you talk about your needs and you make a request of how you'd like it to be in the future.
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So I think helping people, like no one comes with an instruction manager, so people don't need to know how to handle us, and not only are we all unique, but we've got this other invisible illness makes us different as well.
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So I think being clear about your needs and giving feedback when what we some things aren't helpful, some people do things really good intentions, but it's not what you need at that time.
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Yeah, like I've had people to tell me why you're on meds, and I think I don't want to swear go elsewhere is the polite way.
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Um but yeah, who are you to tell me?
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So, um yeah, so they're useful.
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Um I think also uh reaching out when you're good so that there's a reciproci and uh you're if you're generous when you can be generous, I think it means that other people are more willing to do it, and that doesn't matter.
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Maybe some people are I know with things like chronic fatigue set or ME that sometimes people's energy levels are so low that's just not possible.
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But I guess if you can, that's something to think about.
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Um I think video calls are quite good uh as well, just to say that I think listen to someone that text is the worst, phone calls are better, but video calls are great because you get eye to eye contact, and I think one of the things I didn't mention before is I get very lonely.
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I'm one of the most I've got more phones than anyone I know, but I can be the loneliest person I know.
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Um so I think video contact is really good.
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Um but it's hard sometimes reaching out, and I'm like I'm talking all this stuff and I'm guilty myself of in my depressed phases.
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Like I have a friend I meet up with once a week, whatever, but then I didn't have hardly any other social activity during that time.
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So yeah.
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Trying your best to reach out.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:14.160
Um but also it's you have to encourage others to reach in, and I think this whole thing about when people commit suicide, so people saying, I wish you'd talk to me and let me know how you're doing, it's like, well, when was the last time you called them?
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:32.799
So I think reaching in is just as important or more important than reaching out, but you need to let people know that's what you need, so and give people signs so they they know when it's shit and can come and rescue in some way or at least I always think of it as a bit like buoyancy.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:48.960
So depression is like being under water, you can't breathe, you can't feel, you can't do loads of things, and being around good people just gives you enough buoyancy to get your mouth above water and take some air again, and even better, sometimes they lift you up.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.440
Um but yeah, yeah, that's my thoughts.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:09.680
Absolutely, and I think I think there's something really important in that too, for if there's anyone listening to this who maybe doesn't have an invisible illness themselves, but who loves people who do, of this idea that you don't necessarily have to have all the answers to support someone.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.799
You just have to let them know that you're there and keep reaching out.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:20.799
Because I think, like you were saying, sometimes I think it can make people feel uncomfortable in a way if you if you're open and honest and you're like, I'm struggling with this.
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:31.440
And I think sometimes people pull away because they don't know how to help you, or sometimes maybe they have a belief of they don't want to make it worse or say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:45.680
And in my experience, you know, I don't know if this will hold true for everyone, but in my experience, someone reaching in and just saying, Hey, like, I don't know what's going to be helpful for you right now, but I want you to know that I'm here is huge.
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.920
And like just having like presence really is the number one thing with any of this.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:51.599
Yeah, I agree 100%.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:25:09.599
And I think when I did my coaching training, they tell you that everyone's whole, creative, and resourceful, and given time and space and a bit of support, they can work out what's right for them, and that presence is all always needed, but I think also some open questioning can help.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:11.599
Like, is there anything I can do to help?
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:13.680
Yeah, those sort of open-ended invitations.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.640
We generally know what's good for us, you know.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:20.799
We've all lived as long as we've lived so far, and we're the only experts on us.
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:21.920
That's very true.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:31.440
And so, yeah, help people tap into that resourcefulness and creativity to develop solutions that work for them.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.759
But yeah, just being present.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:38.480
And I sometimes joke that on birthdays the present is presence.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:42.799
And I don't care about gifts, but I do care about seeing people I love.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:56.799
Yeah, no, and I gen I think it's one of the best gifts that we can give anyone is our full undivided attention, especially in today's world, you know, like we're all like energizer bunnies bouncing around from task to task, and then phones and social media, and it can all feel so crazy.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:06.960
And I think one of the most amazing things that we can do for someone else and also for ourselves is sit down with one person, like look them in the eyes and ask them, like, how are you doing?
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.960
Like genuinely, because I think a lot of people don't get that.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:20.079
And I think that that's probably feeding into a lot of the loneliness and the loneliness that's exacerbated if you have a invisible health condition for sure.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:24.720
Yeah, and I think just kind of playing on what you said, I think presence is not just important.
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.119
I think the whole thing like eye-to-eye contact and being there and not checking your phone.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:38.799
Yeah, I also think as individuals living with invisible illness, part of the challenge is being present with yourself and not being caught up in your thought processes.
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:48.240
So whether that's meditation or yoga or swimming or doing something that makes you stop thinking and start feeling.
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:50.640
Um it's a lot healthier.
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:58.640
We emotions are just feelings moving around the body, and if we tap into them, they're a lot easier to manage than the thoughts.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:06.319
Um, so I think presence in others, but also presence in yourself is kind of really an important thing to learn if you've got an invisible illness.
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.960
I mean, I think it's good for everyone, but particularly for uh those of us who do have invisible illnesses.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:12.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:19.920
I find when you're able to be in the present, sort of pull it back to what am I feeling now, it can also prevent sort of the thought spyle that can go on for me.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:27.200
It's like, I know if I'm in a flare, it's very easy for my thoughts to go round and round in a circle, and I'm like, oh, what if this gets worse and what if it goes that way?
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:32.079
And what if, you know, I need more treatment or you know, whatever the thought ends up being.
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:39.839
I think if I am able to sort of have awareness in that moment, pull it back and say, okay, this is just what's happening right now.
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:46.720
I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, but I can really pay attention to what's going on right now and do my best with right now.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:51.519
Yeah, and that whole thing about not take it day by day, but take it minute by minute.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.799
Nothing tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, and so we have no idea.
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.960
We might not even be alive, we might be feeling better, we might be feeling worse.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:10.799
So we've just got to focus on where we are now, and I think with that, there's also I I had a conversation with one of my two rocks uh over the weekend, and she's really been struggling.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:25.039
Uh, and we were talking together about she was lying in bed at a time, hadn't uh managed to do anything that day, was beating herself up for not doing her academic work or she hadn't been cooking for herself and she hadn't been swimming.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.880
And I just we talked together and I was like, just take the afternoon off working and do these things again.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:39.599
And when I spoke to her this morning, she said, you know, I'm better, uh, just a bit, and it's it's small steps and like again that not beating ourselves up.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:43.920
If you're going from zero to one or point five, that's a huge thing.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:51.359
You don't have to get to ten, you don't have to feel ecstatic over the world, you just have to try and feel a bit better than being in the bottom of the world.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:29:06.559
Absolutely, and I I think too, going back to some of the stuff you said about yeah, self-talk and being able to be kind to ourselves, because I think it's one of those things that you know we all sort of know we need to do it, of like we know we need to be kind to ourselves, we know we need to have self-love.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:18.079
And then I don't know about anybody else, but in those moments, it's so hard for me because I feel especially that I'm like, I should be working harder, I shouldn't be this tired, I need to do stuff even if I'm tired.
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:30.960
And there's it can it can feel you can end up in a bit of a shame spiral about it, even if there's a part of you that knows this part of this is a bit out of my control, like this is a health, there's health factors at play here.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:36.240
But it can be very hard in those moments, and it sounds like you've been able to sort of work through that a little bit.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.680
I feel really fortunate.
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:45.680
I had this breakthrough, and I don't know if it was a therapist or me, something happened, and I don't even know if it happened that slowly.
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.559
I just noticed that I wasn't doing this one.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.599
And when I speak to others about it, they're not jealous, but like they're wow, you don't say shit things about yourself.
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.880
Like, not really.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.920
Occasionally, very rarely, sometimes I might have a thought, but very rarely.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:08.319
Uh, and I wish I knew the recipe to help others with it, because I think it's not just for those living with a challenge, but actually everyone, everyone's challenge, aren't they?
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:08.640
Yeah.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.440
In some way.
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.440
Uh some of us more severely than others.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.200
But that kind of self-talk you're so important.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:21.519
Um Do you have any idea of like what some of the ingredients might have been, even if you don't know the full recipe for that?
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:30.160
I think I suppose the conversations we were having were about some of that self-talk and kind of being curious about it, like where does that come from?
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.920
I think the other thing is thinking about how would you be speaking to someone else in your shoes or the younger you.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:49.759
Uh and I think I remember one of the sessions she was asking me to tell my younger self what the message I wanted to hear, we wanted to communicate.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:31:00.079
And when it's in that case, you can't not have compassion for a young kid who's just lost his father uh through suicide as well.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:08.240
And so it was interesting, kind of weird talking to yourself as a young person, kind of a bit out there, but that might have been part of it.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:15.680
I think just being able to reflect on like kicking yourself when you're down, like the world does that in any case.
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:17.119
Why would you practice it?
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:29.119
But I have literally have no idea how the changes and I wish I could tell others because I like I like to share anything that's helped me, and I have no bloody idea what what we did together, but something shifted.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:39.519
Well, it sounds like there was something I think in that being able to talk to yourself not only as the you you are now but as your younger self and as you would also talk to a friend.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:50.799
And I think for me, I mean, I believe everyone has a mini haroshum at some point in their formative life, some form of trauma, so it could just be bullying or it could be great loss, or so.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.880
And uh, I was the last person, as far as I know, to speak to my father.
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:01.359
The I was at my grandma's the night before he took his life, and we my grandma spoke to him and then I had a little chat with him.
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:06.480
And for years I beat myself up, like what could I say to stop it?
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:18.559
And I that's a hard thing to carry for whatever, but I think subconsciously there's a message by my dad killing himself, like uh he doesn't laugh at me enough to stay here.
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:36.640
And so I think I'd internalised that behaviour and that thinking and some of my behaviour after he died, I you know, I experimented with drugs, uh I've eaten bad food, I've done other things, smoked, things that aren't good for me.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.720
And I think that's all about self-love.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.880
I think if you truly love yourself, you don't speak to yourself badly and you don't do bad habits for you, you know.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.680
And I think it's hard to really love yourself.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:50.400
I think liking yourself is a good starting place.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.720
But if we could have that self-so I think it was a reflecting around self-love as well.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:28.000
Yeah, and maybe even what you said too made me think of starting with compassion, of like being able to, you know, maybe it's not like a sort of like a relationships, you know, it doesn't have to be romance and fireworks and all that at once, but if if we can sort of start with this curiosity and this genuine interest and this compassion, especially when we've been through things, especially like what you shared, like being able to sort of lean into ourselves almost like we want other people to lean into us and go, hey, like this must have been really hard, and sort of yeah, speaking to ourselves as if we're another person that we want to support and get to know.
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.200
And compassion's like the key to this, you know.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.599
No one chose to have an invisible illness.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:34.720
No, not at all.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:44.240
And if it was someone else, you'd feel sorry for them because they've been given an extra shit card of shit hand of cards, so I get that right.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:53.440
Um, and so yeah, if we can practice compassion, and I think also when we practice compassion towards ourselves, it makes it easier to practice compassion to others.
00:33:53.680 --> 00:33:54.559
A hundred percent, yeah.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:09.360
I mean you send it out there, and so I think I don't think I've mentioned this, but I feel like when you're depressed, you're like an empty jug, an empty vessel with nothing to give in.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.000
It's not like when you're having your flare-ups, it's similar.
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:12.960
Very similar, yeah.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:17.760
So well-being, steps to well-being is kind of like filling up that jug.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.960
Uh, and part of that's about being compassionate, isn't it?
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.480
Um yeah.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:23.440
Absolutely.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:35.119
Yeah, I think that's that's a wonderful way to describe it is when we are in those moments, we have to just do those little even if they're tiny, even if it's a teaspoon of filling up that jug, it's it really is those little things.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.920
And I mean when there's more in the jug, you can share it with others.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:46.480
So uh it's hard sometimes when I'm really down to be there for others how I'd like to be, but when I'm looking after myself, I can give a bit more.
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:46.880
Yeah.
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.800
You know, it might not be much like you say a teaspoon, but it's something.
00:34:51.039 --> 00:35:00.159
Yeah, and we can give in ways that you know, like it might not be as much as we want to give, but if we can just give in those little ways, like it's you know, maybe said it's a phone call instead of going out to dinner.
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:01.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:07.280
Or even a text of like, hey, you know, I know I've been, you know, a little out of it recently, but I just want to say I really appreciate you.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:12.480
Like those little tiny things really are what strengthen and keep those relationships really strong.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.000
Yeah, I've started something recently called Eulogies for the Living.
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:22.079
So uh I've experienced far too much death in my life, and me and my colleague Sophie were talking about the other day.
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:30.480
So Finba, you know lots of people, but you've had more death in your life than anyone I know, and it's regular, and also a lot of them are through suicide.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.519
Uh and s I I I how's this sound not a bit fast?
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.840
I I like a good funeral.
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:51.199
Um I don't like the fact people are dead, particularly when they die early, but I like I think they can be beautiful celebrations of a life, but the stupid thing is the person who died never got to hear it.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:51.679
Yeah.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:58.000
And so my eulogies for the living, I've only just died, I've done one for my mum and one for my daughters, but I'm gonna keep on doing them for a while.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:05.519
I sort of celebrating people while they're alive, and that's the kind of bit where you're talking about just tell people you love them and why you love them.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.920
Uh, and so I'm hoping it's gonna go viral, but uh so far it's just me doing it.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:16.400
Oh my god, well, to any listener, any listener who's hearing this, I think we need to make this go viral because I think that's a phenomenal idea.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:23.280
So I'm gonna link that in the show notes and let's see if we can make this viral because I think that would be the dose of positivity and love that the world needs right now.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.320
Definitely, yeah.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:25.199
Oh my gosh.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:29.199
Well, I think that's probably one of the perfect notes to wrap up on.
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:40.079
But before we end this, I am starting a tradition with a Pika Talks interviews called Final Out of Pocket Question, which is where I ask the interviewee a very random question.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:42.000
So this can be absolutely anything.
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.159
I've not told Finbar what the question is.
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.119
She hasn't.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.079
I've not.
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.760
And we're gonna see how he reacts.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:48.639
Are you ready, Finbar?
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:49.280
I'm ready.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:49.840
Okay.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:55.679
If you had to be reincarnated as a kitchen appliance, what appliance would you pick and why?
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:57.440
Ooh, good question.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:36:59.679
I need to think for a moment.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:04.719
It might be a wooden spatula.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:06.079
A wooden spatula?
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.239
I mean, I'd hate to come back as something plastic and metal, so it's a bit harsh.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.039
But wooden spatulas you can use in any pan.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:20.000
Uh and yeah, multi-versatile, you can make a cake with it, you can stir your dinner with it, you can get a bit of quiche out with it.
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:22.719
It's kind of really practical.
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.760
Uh, if I go camping, I always take a spatula with me, so it feels like an essential kitchen tool.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:28.400
Absolutely.
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.280
So versatile.
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:29.599
Yeah.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.960
And and I like natural materials, so the thought that someone could enjoy holding me and using me.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.719
That sounds a bit weird, but but yeah, it's tactile.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.119
Yeah.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.079
Uh so yeah.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.440
And wood's beautiful, so yeah, come back as beautiful, tactile, and useful sounds amazing.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:46.719
Well, here you have it.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:49.840
Fan marble reincarnate as a beautiful tactile wooden spoon.
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:52.320
Maybe we can get a little engraving on the spent spatula.
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.679
How can I spatula, much more of a style extended?
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.559
Yeah, you can flip things, you can stir things, all sorts of stuff.
00:37:58.719 --> 00:37:59.440
Oh my gosh.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:00.400
That's a phenomenal answer.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:05.679
I'm I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad you took that as seriously as I did, because I think it's a very, I think it's a very important question to answer.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:07.039
Yeah, definitely.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:07.920
Awesome.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:11.599
Well, thank you so much, Finbar, for coming on the show and for sharing your story.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.480
It was really, it was truly a pleasure to have this interview.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:18.159
And to all the listeners at home, thank you so much for tuning in.
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.079
And we will be back soon with another episode of Epika Talks.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.480
Yeah, thank you, and hope you enjoy it.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.400
Thank you for listening to Epika Talks.
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:41.440
The content shared in this podcast, including by the hosts and guests, is for informational purposes only and does not provide medical, mental health, or other professional or healthcare advice.
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:47.920
Opinions of guests are their own, and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:55.199
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00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:00.400
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