8: Jules Mitchell on yoga butt, foot-on-knee and stretching science

WEBVTT
00:00:05.666 --> 00:00:17.536
Welcome to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast, where we take a deep dive into the worlds of anatomy, physiology, and science to help you deepen your yoga practice.
00:00:18.056 --> 00:00:20.516
Now, here's your host, Matthew Huy.
00:00:22.740 --> 00:00:27.310
Hello and welcome to this episode of Enlightened Anatomy.
00:00:27.650 --> 00:00:35.664
today I am joined by Jules Mitchell, author of Yoga Biomechanics, which I'm holding up in my hands.
00:00:36.134 --> 00:00:37.223
A great read.
00:00:37.514 --> 00:00:39.654
Very dense, just like our book.
00:00:39.954 --> 00:00:49.564
so I think one that you pick up and drop off and Jules is an educator of yoga teachers and yoga practitioners, but I'll let her fill you in a bit more on her background.
00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:50.334
Welcome, Jules.
00:00:50.634 --> 00:00:51.704
Hi, thanks for having me.
00:00:53.353 --> 00:01:00.834
I love when people hold up my book or offer my book for me to sign because I can tell how much they've read of it by how worn it is.
00:01:01.003 --> 00:01:03.594
So there's a little tell there.
00:01:03.884 --> 00:01:08.394
Mine has pages falling out and people hand me this pristine book.
00:01:08.743 --> 00:01:10.524
I'm like, yeah, I know it's dense, isn't it?
00:01:12.414 --> 00:01:14.123
They get through maybe chapter one.
00:01:15.569 --> 00:01:16.890
Yeah, exactly.
00:01:17.769 --> 00:01:25.920
So, I'll let you do a little introduction of yourself A bit about your background and how you came into biomechanics.
00:01:26.498 --> 00:01:30.769
Yeah, that's a hard one because, it can be a long story and I'll try not to do that.
00:01:30.778 --> 00:01:43.355
But, um, my educational background primarily was in, believe it or not, women's studies and, my minor was in mathematics so it wasn't, related to any of this.
00:01:43.426 --> 00:01:47.085
And somewhere in undergrad, I discovered yoga.
00:01:47.721 --> 00:01:50.620
And so then yoga became my thing.
00:01:51.290 --> 00:01:56.691
Um, and then later in life, lots of circumstances, you know, how life happens.
00:01:57.031 --> 00:02:09.640
I somehow found myself in a graduate program in kinesiology cause yoga, kinesiology, exercise science, and they, funneled me into, biomechanics.
00:02:10.105 --> 00:02:12.316
I didn't really know what biomechanics was.
00:02:12.786 --> 00:02:16.635
I thought I was going to be studying more like anatomy type stuff.
00:02:16.665 --> 00:02:18.406
I just figured, hey, exercise yoga.
00:02:18.436 --> 00:02:18.846
Okay.
00:02:19.436 --> 00:02:29.031
And the reason why they'd funneled me into that was because, in that big span of time, I had gone back to school to study some engineering, because my father was an engineer.
00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:30.341
I thought that's what I wanted to do.
00:02:31.151 --> 00:02:35.341
And so I had all of the coursework for biomechanics.
00:02:35.640 --> 00:02:37.971
And in an exercise science program, that's uncommon.
00:02:38.431 --> 00:02:43.330
People usually have biology, but they don't usually have the mechanics side of things.
00:02:43.890 --> 00:02:52.531
They explained that to me and I still didn't understand what biomechanics was because I hadn't heard of it, and then all of a sudden I'm in the courses and my jaw is hanging open.
00:02:52.540 --> 00:02:55.350
I was like, oh, my God, they have graphs for this stuff.
00:02:55.730 --> 00:02:57.610
can actually see how tendons behave.
00:02:57.621 --> 00:02:58.621
this is unbelievable.
00:02:58.790 --> 00:03:02.390
Nobody else in the class was interested, but I was very interested.
00:03:02.811 --> 00:03:11.020
when I realized what it was, I was all in, and I was very thankful that I had advisors that saw who I was and what my background was and funneled me into the right place.
00:03:11.031 --> 00:03:14.531
So that's how I ended up teaching biomechanics to yoga teachers.
00:03:14.781 --> 00:03:18.260
I certainly wasn't the only one with those interests and questions.
00:03:18.610 --> 00:03:19.600
Great introduction.
00:03:20.100 --> 00:03:26.811
I like how you say about them funneling you in and how you found yourself at a master's it's almost like the path finds its way.
00:03:27.110 --> 00:03:29.110
that is exactly how I feel about it.
00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:41.400
to add to that kind of like, it's my dharma, I guess, not, not only was my father an engineer, so I had the background and the curiosity of mechanics design and physics but my mother was a professor at university.
00:03:41.699 --> 00:03:44.860
the teaching aspect is also, instilled in me.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:52.319
I grew up on university campuses, So the fact that now I teach physics, is, not a big surprise.
00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:53.229
Yeah.
00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.028
But I didn't, it wasn't my plan.
00:03:55.239 --> 00:03:55.568
right.
00:03:55.568 --> 00:03:55.658
I
00:03:55.788 --> 00:03:56.177
to me.
00:03:57.118 --> 00:03:59.479
so I want to share how I got to know you.
00:04:00.118 --> 00:04:05.188
the first time I heard about you was through Jenni Rowlings because she said my mentor, Jules Mitchell.
00:04:05.218 --> 00:04:06.329
that's when I first Googled you.
00:04:06.998 --> 00:04:08.889
at the time you were writing a book, so you were.
00:04:09.674 --> 00:04:16.394
quite quiet on social media But then your book did come out, and it was well received.
00:04:16.423 --> 00:04:17.454
A great book.
00:04:17.524 --> 00:04:20.254
Necessary reading, I would say, for all yoga teachers.
00:04:22.504 --> 00:04:28.093
I, around that time, decided to embark on a master's degree in exercise science.
00:04:28.684 --> 00:04:34.663
I shot you an email on the off chance that you might respond which you did.
00:04:34.723 --> 00:04:39.983
I basically just asked you, I have to decide on my dissertation thesis.
00:04:40.064 --> 00:04:43.634
I have to decide on a topic, and I would love your feedback.
00:04:44.244 --> 00:05:03.473
You suggested, looking at, the recent history of physical therapy, particularly in relation to language and how language has affected people I got reading about language and pain science and that did end up being my master's dissertation, all about how yoga teacher's language has potential to heal as well as to harm.
00:05:03.803 --> 00:05:06.983
So, of course, I'm very grateful to you for that.
00:05:07.583 --> 00:05:08.093
You're welcome.
00:05:08.392 --> 00:05:09.603
You did your
00:05:09.822 --> 00:05:10.502
It really does.
00:05:10.872 --> 00:05:12.512
I said that pleases me immensely.
00:05:13.281 --> 00:05:18.982
as the daughter of a university professor, that I was able to mentor and help someone make a decision for their path.
00:05:19.422 --> 00:05:20.177
It makes me happy.
00:05:20.228 --> 00:05:22.035
You helped funnel me in that direction.
00:05:22.651 --> 00:05:25.232
then I refined my own vision, of it.
00:05:25.232 --> 00:05:27.341
so I'm grateful for that initial prompt.
00:05:27.872 --> 00:05:29.862
Now, let's jump into biomechanics.
00:05:29.922 --> 00:05:49.891
We've already said the word about six times, and your book is called Yoga Biomechanics, I think we should start with the definition I know chapter one starts with this, where you talk about how when you lead a weekend workshop, you'll start by asking people what biomechanics is, and you'll get a lot of Kind of half answers and people saying is it alignment?
00:05:50.232 --> 00:05:55.461
So I would like to be the student in the front row, raising their hand, who's done their pre reading.
00:05:56.312 --> 00:06:01.512
I would like to try to define bio mechanics and then see if, if, if it's acceptable to you.
00:06:01.512 --> 00:06:01.896
Okay.
00:06:02.966 --> 00:06:12.367
Okay, so biomechanics is the study of how, hang on a second, it is tricky, especially when you're on the spot.
00:06:12.797 --> 00:06:19.226
So, biomechanics is the study of mechanics related to living systems.
00:06:19.297 --> 00:06:23.487
It investigates forces acting on and created by the body.
00:06:24.245 --> 00:06:24.512
works.
00:06:24.762 --> 00:06:25.732
a good
00:06:26.031 --> 00:06:27.125
Sure, I'll take it.
00:06:27.386 --> 00:06:27.776
So that's
00:06:27.872 --> 00:06:29.370
as the word force is in there
00:06:30.396 --> 00:06:31.536
Okay, cool.
00:06:31.944 --> 00:06:34.644
really about movement principles and force.
00:06:34.684 --> 00:06:36.043
that's the gist of it.
00:06:36.093 --> 00:06:37.423
So yes, I'll take it.
00:06:37.589 --> 00:06:38.610
Okay, cool.
00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:47.300
My daughter is just starting secondary school and she's learning about forces, so it's really cool to be studying it with her and see what she's learning about.
00:06:47.790 --> 00:06:49.680
And even learning which is cool.
00:06:50.170 --> 00:06:55.360
Okay, so all about forces, how they act on the body, how the body creates those.
00:06:55.819 --> 00:07:05.290
And why do you think This knowledge of physics applied to living systems is important for yoga teachers?
00:07:05.653 --> 00:07:06.394
it's a good question.
00:07:06.694 --> 00:07:09.750
And perhaps to yoga practitioners, could it be helpful to them?
00:07:10.713 --> 00:07:11.173
yes,
00:07:11.413 --> 00:07:11.954
Mm
00:07:12.468 --> 00:07:14.947
conceptually, I think it can be useful.
00:07:15.858 --> 00:07:24.216
let me back up and just say that there are divisions of biomechanics, There's, kinematics and kinetics kinematics.
00:07:24.216 --> 00:07:25.747
talks about the property of movements.
00:07:25.786 --> 00:07:28.906
And we study those already in yoga as yoga teachers.
00:07:29.127 --> 00:07:31.476
We understand what flexion and abduction are.
00:07:31.857 --> 00:07:33.747
These are, kinematic terms.
00:07:34.706 --> 00:07:38.346
We understand range of motion and joint position and things like that.
00:07:38.387 --> 00:07:38.817
Kinetics.
00:07:38.817 --> 00:07:39.817
We don't talk much about.
00:07:40.476 --> 00:07:46.586
Because that really requires force, it's not just the properties of movement, it's the forces involved in motion.
00:07:47.226 --> 00:07:51.456
And that generally requires laboratory equipment to measure.
00:07:51.507 --> 00:07:54.497
we know there's gravity, but we need numbers to calculate, right?
00:07:54.497 --> 00:07:57.487
So that's why we don't really talk about that stuff very much.
00:07:58.677 --> 00:08:04.846
Kinetics can be useful to yoga teachers, but not that useful.
00:08:05.276 --> 00:08:24.608
just maybe some general broad understanding, because we don't really have performance measures in yoga, those types of things might be more valuable if we're trying to Measure speed or jump height, like acceleration, how fast you can run, whether you can, jump over the pole, just any sport, we don't really have that.
00:08:25.177 --> 00:08:31.478
we could sit around and debate like, if you put your Foot on your knee in tree pose.
00:08:31.478 --> 00:08:34.638
what are the frontal plane forces acting on?
00:08:34.658 --> 00:08:44.687
You know, but I mean, in reality, we're not doing anything that's high enough force with fast enough motion to really move the needle anyway.
00:08:45.008 --> 00:08:46.847
that is actually an education in itself.
00:08:46.888 --> 00:08:53.298
if you're a yoga teacher, And you have all these cues where you're talking about, don't do this because it's too much force on the whatever.
00:08:53.298 --> 00:08:55.677
You're now should already be questioning.
00:08:55.717 --> 00:08:59.048
Maybe it's not, We're not really moving fast and we're not jumping.
00:08:59.048 --> 00:09:01.238
There's not a lot of, external load.
00:09:01.878 --> 00:09:02.977
compared to other things.
00:09:03.748 --> 00:09:11.087
So that led me into the third division of biomechanics, which is tissue mechanics.
00:09:11.128 --> 00:09:13.067
And that is really what my book is about.
00:09:13.648 --> 00:09:19.717
It is about the behavior, or more appropriately, the properties of our connective tissue.
00:09:20.248 --> 00:09:33.638
And that I think is where it becomes very valuable because we talk a lot about stretching and overstretching and protecting the knee and protecting the back Whenever we're talking about these terms, we're talking about connective tissue.
00:09:33.957 --> 00:09:52.462
with the weekend courses, one of the things I ask is what are some structures of the body that we care about in yoga, that we're either trying to protect or make stronger you know, people throw things out like, rotator cuff, tendon, SI joint, discs, spinal discs, meniscus.
00:09:53.044 --> 00:09:57.717
Every single structure they name is a collagen based connective tissue.
00:09:58.327 --> 00:10:14.229
And so if we're going to be centering safety and protection and healing and adaptation, we should understand how those tissues behave what they're made of, what their structure composition and how forces can help or harm them.
00:10:14.229 --> 00:10:17.948
you can be an amazing yoga teacher and not worry about that stuff.
00:10:17.969 --> 00:10:21.318
You can teach people to breathe and move and stretch and have a great time.
00:10:21.668 --> 00:10:26.609
But if you're going to start saying, don't put your foot here because you have to protect the knee.
00:10:27.038 --> 00:10:33.244
Now I would say, all right, tying our work together, that that kind of language can harm.
00:10:33.964 --> 00:10:45.524
And so if you want to change your language and you want to understand how it can harm and how it can help, it's helpful to understand how the tissue behaves so that what you're saying is actually valid.
00:10:45.614 --> 00:10:49.144
there might be a valid reason to protect a joint, but you have to understand the background
00:10:49.179 --> 00:10:49.190
hmm.
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:49.779
Mm hmm.
00:10:50.596 --> 00:10:53.879
Thanks for talking about those two elements of biomechanics.
00:10:54.210 --> 00:10:59.725
during my master's I chose biomechanics as one of the elective modules that I could do.
00:10:59.985 --> 00:11:01.394
And yeah, it was because of your book.
00:11:02.575 --> 00:11:03.695
It sounded like a cool thing.
00:11:03.695 --> 00:11:16.024
Yeah, I want to do biomechanics as opposed to laboratory testing for sport physiology, It turned out to be the, the former of the two that you were talking about.
00:11:16.024 --> 00:11:17.024
It was kinetics.
00:11:17.034 --> 00:11:23.544
We were looking at forces of pole vaulters, shot putters, running with a parachute that sort of thing.
00:11:23.815 --> 00:11:27.424
I thought, this is not the kind of stuff that I thought I'd be learning about.
00:11:27.995 --> 00:11:37.029
And I did think, yeah, this doesn't directly translate to yoga in the same way that tissue mechanics would, but I found it really interesting.
00:11:37.179 --> 00:11:48.399
I didn't do terribly well at it, but, I did find it interesting It's good to know that there's a difference between tissue mechanics and kinetics and the tissue mechanics is one that you focus on more, how tissues behave.
00:11:48.929 --> 00:11:54.552
And, you know, you, um, opened The Pandora's box of foot on knee in tree pose?
00:11:56.673 --> 00:11:59.543
So, since you've opened the box, can we go there
00:11:59.777 --> 00:12:00.206
Sure.
00:12:00.206 --> 00:12:00.371
Yeah.
00:12:01.486 --> 00:12:08.126
Teachers quite often say, place your foot above the knee, below the knee, but not on the knee in tree pose.
00:12:08.797 --> 00:12:17.381
And I certainly have an opinion on this, and it's based on biomechanics, what I know about biomechanics, and newtons of force, varus force across the knee.
00:12:17.851 --> 00:12:19.522
if you can get your take on it.
00:12:19.826 --> 00:12:21.166
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:12:22.436 --> 00:12:25.405
Well, this is where enter pain science.
00:12:26.566 --> 00:12:37.605
people should put their foot wherever they enjoy and whatever doesn't make them feel unstable, feel, you know what I mean?
00:12:37.615 --> 00:12:39.586
Like, feel, sensitized.
00:12:40.035 --> 00:12:46.645
So, somebody with arthritis, with osteoarthritis, might not like the feeling of the foot on the knee, right?
00:12:46.735 --> 00:12:48.436
Somebody might not mind.
00:12:48.895 --> 00:13:02.375
but regardless, if you understand, cartilage degeneration, which is a tissue mechanics thing, cause it's collagen based, you'll realize that putting the foot on the knee is not going to do much to the knee.
00:13:02.676 --> 00:13:05.625
you're not kicking your knee as hard as you can.
00:13:05.916 --> 00:13:09.480
You're not strengthening the muscles of that standing leg with external load.
00:13:09.576 --> 00:13:12.775
You're not doing squats with a barbell on your back in that tree.
00:13:12.826 --> 00:13:14.166
you're not really adapting.
00:13:14.166 --> 00:13:15.285
You're not really damaging.
00:13:15.296 --> 00:13:17.495
You're just kind of putting your foot there.
00:13:17.745 --> 00:13:21.125
so the question now becomes, does it feel good or does it not?
00:13:21.566 --> 00:13:30.740
And of course, if you're interested in range of motion, which a lot of yoga teachers are, you put the foot above the knee because you're trying to get the foot as high as you can.
00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:37.051
That's a valid reason too, but if somebody doesn't have that range of motion, do they need to put it below the knee for any reason?
00:13:37.201 --> 00:13:46.836
Like these are, it's all subjective, When we're talking about minimal forces, It it doesn't really make that much of a difference.
00:13:46.885 --> 00:14:00.623
you can tell people not to put the foot on the knee because you have a class where you suspect some people might be sensitized in the knee and this isn't good for them It's the way we say it with this certainty that the knee can't handle it, and the knee can handle it.
00:14:00.893 --> 00:14:11.082
in the book, I cite a paper where I looked at frontal plane forces on the knee, just walking down the street has higher frontal plane forces on the knee, you know, than you would see in some yoga poses.
00:14:11.442 --> 00:14:12.962
So it's going to be okay.
00:14:13.352 --> 00:14:15.493
just say, put the foot above the knee.
00:14:16.342 --> 00:14:22.682
you don't have to validate it with some fear mongering message that, over years of doing this is going to damage your knee joint.
00:14:23.072 --> 00:14:25.462
You know, what does that do to someone's beliefs?
00:14:25.493 --> 00:14:29.442
And then they, 10 years later, find out they have arthritis and now they're blaming yoga for it.
00:14:29.543 --> 00:14:29.972
Yes.
00:14:31.121 --> 00:14:32.861
you can pull on that thread
00:14:32.861 --> 00:14:39.142
I don't like the fact that that cue suggests that our knee is really vulnerable.
00:14:39.552 --> 00:14:44.211
When in fact, like all of the other joints and structures of our body, they are well built.
00:14:44.782 --> 00:14:53.861
And if we just look at forces, and correct me if I'm wrong, but when we're running, we can have three to eight times their own body weight traveling through the knee
00:14:56.796 --> 00:14:59.395
Instead of transversely from the frontal plane.
00:14:59.542 --> 00:15:04.711
which is what I was going to mention in the act of cutting, which is what soccer players do.
00:15:05.001 --> 00:15:07.292
They're running one direction, they change the direction.
00:15:07.302 --> 00:15:22.517
That is going to send a frontal force through the knee of their own body weight, times whatever speed that they're traveling at, So, we are going to see forces greater than just the weight of the leg, without moving, being placed onto the knee.
00:15:22.866 --> 00:15:28.537
And potentially not even the whole weight of the leg, you might be using your hip flexors to lift the foot off the knee a little bit too.
00:15:28.537 --> 00:15:36.277
So, I think when we take it into context, also consider kickboxers who take huge forces to the knee and they manage to do that.
00:15:36.787 --> 00:15:41.096
so it's really important to remember that the body is an adaptable structure.
00:15:41.106 --> 00:15:42.667
It's a strong structure.
00:15:43.106 --> 00:15:47.726
and it's not as weak and vulnerable as I think we can sometimes be led to believe.
00:17:10.236 --> 00:17:11.706
And let's take a yoga example.
00:17:11.756 --> 00:17:13.125
cause I love, I do what you do.
00:17:13.125 --> 00:17:18.816
I always to sports and things like that, you know, but then some people are like, athletes get injured too.
00:17:19.456 --> 00:17:20.706
I love those examples.
00:17:20.706 --> 00:17:29.806
And in my slides, I have tons of, athletes doing incredible things, hockey players, and tennis players but let's just take a yoga example.
00:17:30.131 --> 00:17:33.121
if you're standing in Tadasana, you're standing in Mountain Pose.
00:17:33.371 --> 00:17:37.331
Now we've got longitudinal forces going through the knee, ground reaction forces.
00:17:37.821 --> 00:17:39.441
if you stand with your feet wide.
00:17:40.221 --> 00:17:49.423
now this is where a little bit of physics comes into play in my biomechanics course, I draw arrows and show force and we talk about this in more detail, but maybe you can envision it.
00:17:49.824 --> 00:17:51.234
if you stand with your feet wide.
00:17:51.499 --> 00:18:05.247
your knee is not right over the ankle anymore, if you understand anything about geometry and maybe some trigonometry, you can draw a right triangle from where the foot is making contact and the knee, and you can calculate some frontal plane forces on the knee.
00:18:05.747 --> 00:18:09.047
And I would, need real data to measure that.
00:18:09.376 --> 00:18:18.787
So I'm, I'm speaking hypothetically here, but for many people, those forces on the knee are actually more than just resting your foot gently on your knee and tree pose.
00:18:19.546 --> 00:18:26.326
So in yoga, we are already exposing the knee to greater loads than in that situation.
00:18:26.737 --> 00:18:27.877
Think of side plank.
00:18:27.917 --> 00:18:28.897
That's a great example.
00:18:28.897 --> 00:18:31.567
If you're, if the outer edge of your foot is on floor, right?
00:18:31.836 --> 00:18:35.477
Or think of the back foot in warrior two versus the front.
00:18:35.517 --> 00:18:39.907
In the front, we'll say, make sure the knee is over the ankle, but in the back, it's not.
00:18:40.336 --> 00:18:44.806
So we're talking out of both sides of our mouth, my favorite, if we talk about the shoulder.
00:18:45.441 --> 00:18:48.841
There's plank, you know, we want to keep the shoulder over the wrist and plank.
00:18:49.191 --> 00:18:51.131
And then the next pose is Chaturanga.
00:18:51.161 --> 00:18:53.351
And now we want the shoulder way in front of the wrist.
00:18:53.451 --> 00:18:55.631
this is where tissue mechanics comes into play.
00:18:55.701 --> 00:19:02.980
it's not that you need to know the exact forces and need to know the exact numbers but you should understand these basic principles.
00:19:03.506 --> 00:19:06.826
Because otherwise it's really hard to deconstruct your language.
00:19:07.136 --> 00:19:14.004
It's very hard to deconstruct the initial script that you've been given because the initial script was given in assumptions.
00:19:14.406 --> 00:19:17.486
now if the body's just adaptable, I don't know what to say anymore.
00:19:17.846 --> 00:19:20.636
And then you feel like you don't know how to teach anymore.
00:19:20.906 --> 00:19:29.136
But if you understand these ideas, you get more confidence and you can, deconstruct those messages and come up with new ways to say things.
00:19:29.486 --> 00:19:31.855
That's my direction in teaching people this.
00:19:33.237 --> 00:19:34.147
Beautifully said.
00:19:34.907 --> 00:19:42.257
Going back to my last podcast episode with Libby Hinsley, she said, there's nothing wrong with defaulting to comfort.
00:19:42.677 --> 00:19:46.117
Helping the people in your class feel a little bit more comfortable.
00:19:46.127 --> 00:19:48.417
You in your own practice feel a little bit more comfortable.
00:19:48.427 --> 00:19:48.777
Great.
00:19:48.807 --> 00:19:52.367
That's probably a good idea to have less pain, in a certain pose.
00:19:52.407 --> 00:19:52.747
Okay.
00:19:52.747 --> 00:19:53.397
Go for that.
00:19:53.677 --> 00:19:55.497
Then don't add on the extra bit.
00:19:56.082 --> 00:19:59.422
about how, such and such a joint is vulnerable or weak
00:19:59.472 --> 00:19:59.872
Yeah,
00:19:59.912 --> 00:20:03.772
So, you talked about how some knowledge of science is useful, right?
00:20:04.132 --> 00:20:09.512
how much science do you think all yoga teachers should be science literate?
00:20:09.802 --> 00:20:10.742
research literate?
00:20:10.792 --> 00:20:12.432
I know this is where your forte is.
00:20:12.482 --> 00:20:18.787
obviously, You're gonna think, to some degree, yes, but how much science do we need to know as yoga teachers?
00:20:19.266 --> 00:20:20.676
Oh, that's such a good question.
00:20:21.116 --> 00:20:24.986
Research literacy is like my, I teach biomechanics.
00:20:25.406 --> 00:20:29.456
Research literacy, like it's the second thing I teach as far as, my curriculum.
00:20:30.126 --> 00:20:35.196
people will be surprised to say that actually as a yoga teacher, you don't need any of that.
00:20:36.273 --> 00:20:48.900
I think if I were to walk around and say every teacher needs biomechanics and every teacher needs, scientific literacy, that's a very, arrogant, upholding, supremacy and patriarchy and all of that, So nobody needs that.
00:20:49.540 --> 00:20:52.810
if you're interested in it, I'll help you, like, I'm interested in it.
00:20:52.820 --> 00:20:54.050
I don't think anybody needs it.
00:20:54.630 --> 00:21:07.280
people can be amazing, lovely yoga teachers that teach breathwork and mantra and, and kirtan and what they never even mentioned the knee, you know what I mean?
00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:08.930
Like, why would I say that?
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:15.130
Oh, you know, like, I think there's so that's one of the great things about yoga is there's so many approaches.
00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:24.670
But if you do like to teach an athletic style of yoga that really focuses on joint position and angles, then you might find this stuff really interesting.
00:21:25.060 --> 00:21:38.355
you might be surprised at how confident you become because most of the messages have just been like, Rote memorization, I remember I learned what a tendon was and it connects muscle to bone, you know what I mean?
00:21:38.426 --> 00:21:39.416
that's what I learned.
00:21:39.506 --> 00:21:47.796
but once you understand the histology of a tendon, it gets really interesting, once you understand tendinopathies, you get really interested, so you might like it.
00:21:48.406 --> 00:21:52.386
I think no one needs it, but it's available if it interests you.
00:21:52.836 --> 00:21:55.706
go down that path because it's fun.
00:21:56.105 --> 00:21:59.476
as far as research literacy goes, the same thing.
00:21:59.596 --> 00:22:05.596
research literacy and, and kind of evidence-based teaching, you know, is having its moment.
00:22:06.105 --> 00:22:12.246
but the, the problem with with that is it very quickly becomes a weapon.
00:22:13.286 --> 00:22:16.355
To prove that you're right.
00:22:16.846 --> 00:22:19.956
that is actually not what research literacy is.
00:22:20.416 --> 00:22:23.146
and not what evidence based teaching is.
00:22:26.746 --> 00:22:28.816
it's just the way the human brain works.
00:22:29.026 --> 00:22:34.556
we want to find reason and we want to be right and we want to know.
00:22:35.036 --> 00:22:36.756
but that's not how it works.
00:22:37.166 --> 00:22:55.236
if you are interested in research literacy, my suggestion is buckle up because it's a lifelong journey of understanding what can be studied, what can't be studied, what is studied, why we have multiple studies with different results, it helps you form a greater understanding.
00:22:55.506 --> 00:23:02.806
instead of saying that this is the right and best position for plank pose.
00:23:03.186 --> 00:23:04.546
That's not what science does,
00:23:04.906 --> 00:23:05.346
hmm.
00:23:05.755 --> 00:23:09.505
I think that's what Libby said on the last podcast there's nothing wrong with.
00:23:09.830 --> 00:23:11.930
encouraging your students to be more comfortable.
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:16.310
that's not a scientific statement and it is a valid way to teach.
00:23:16.600 --> 00:23:19.140
everything doesn't need to come from a research paper.
00:23:19.540 --> 00:23:23.950
that statement comes from a deep understanding of these concepts.
00:23:24.555 --> 00:23:31.325
I think what happens is people think research literacy means that a study was published and that twisting makes you do this.
00:23:31.325 --> 00:23:40.215
then you come into your class and twisting does not, detoxify you become like, all of a sudden you have all this knowledge, you know, and that's not it.
00:23:40.465 --> 00:23:47.815
what you get out of scientific literacy is, I'm going to teach twists and See how people feel and let them have their experience.
00:23:48.125 --> 00:23:50.555
I'm not going to make wild claims about what it does.
00:23:50.555 --> 00:23:54.865
I don't even need to spend my time invalidating what somebody else said in a previous class.
00:23:54.925 --> 00:24:03.775
I think we end up being like, any yoga teacher that tells you that twisting, da, da, da, like there's so much, we don't know, you know, just chill out.
00:24:06.906 --> 00:24:07.136
Mm hmm.
00:24:07.146 --> 00:24:07.546
Yeah.
00:24:07.864 --> 00:24:10.653
does that give you an of how I feel about research literacy?
00:24:11.610 --> 00:24:13.080
Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:14.230 --> 00:24:17.200
So it's there if you're interested, but maybe we don't need to.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:24.340
But at the same time, you have to go down that rabbit hole to then realize what you're doing in the first place was right, you know?
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:25.114
Yes.
00:24:25.694 --> 00:24:27.724
That's what I by it giving you confidence.
00:24:27.724 --> 00:24:28.284
Do you know what I mean?
00:24:28.304 --> 00:24:35.134
it supports a larger narrative that you could be a great teacher already, but you're not quite sure.
00:24:35.134 --> 00:24:37.814
you're not really Behind what you're saying Completely.
00:24:37.994 --> 00:24:39.074
And this helps you do that.
00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:51.730
if a yoga teacher came to me and said, should I teach handstand, I would say, yeah, go teach handstands, you know, and then if they then ask the question, okay, are handstands safe?
00:24:52.090 --> 00:24:54.490
Is our shoulder joint built for handstands?
00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:57.140
How many handstands should I do before I get injured?
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.350
Well, then we have to go down that whole rabbit hole.
00:25:00.350 --> 00:25:11.969
We have to look through all the research, whole journey of the body to understand tissue mechanics, like you're talking about, adaptation, to then arrive at the conclusion that, yeah, you should go do
00:25:11.993 --> 00:25:13.293
Yes, Exactly.
00:25:13.563 --> 00:25:16.053
And I'm really, go ahead, I'll finish and then I wanna add to that.
00:25:16.209 --> 00:25:24.089
And just basically, don't worry about it, just do what you need to do to get into your handstand and keep cracking at it, you know?
00:25:24.389 --> 00:25:25.943
Yes, 100%.
00:25:26.503 --> 00:25:33.988
So what I was gonna add was what I love that you mentioned that you have to go do this whole like journey of research and I think that is.
00:25:34.613 --> 00:25:39.033
That's where I, when I said buckle up, it's a long journey for research literacy.
00:25:39.473 --> 00:25:44.432
I think what happens is people get a little bit of exposure to science and then they just use this single study.
00:25:44.823 --> 00:25:56.083
They find a single handstand study where somebody this and that and use it to validate whether handstands are good or bad when in reality Being scientifically literate, and I'm using that in air quotes.
00:25:56.083 --> 00:25:58.182
'cause even that is sort of an arrogant term.
00:25:58.182 --> 00:26:09.643
But that means that you've spent a long time on a single topic and you're very familiar with the research of the last decades and the research that's coming out today.
00:26:09.643 --> 00:26:15.643
you're more interested in the questions that the top researchers are asking than the results of a single paper.
00:26:16.318 --> 00:26:17.858
you're following the trends.
00:26:18.078 --> 00:26:24.468
you're aware of new technologies that are allowing us to study different things in the shoulder joint for handstand.
00:26:24.478 --> 00:26:28.178
Like now we have fluoroscopy machines and we can measure, you know, 0.
00:26:28.228 --> 00:26:30.268
4 millimeters of movement inside the shoulder joint.
00:26:30.918 --> 00:26:40.423
And so you're, you know, You're becoming very well read on an entire topic and then you arrive at, yes, you should do handstands, you know?
00:26:40.423 --> 00:26:43.773
And I, but that's the important part it's, you're in it for the long haul.
00:26:43.803 --> 00:26:46.533
And actually, that's not satisfying for some people.
00:26:46.823 --> 00:26:48.163
but it's very satisfying for me.
00:26:48.243 --> 00:26:50.993
You know, it's like, I don't ever, it's very yogic to me.
00:26:50.993 --> 00:26:53.863
I don't ever want to be finished with downward dog.
00:26:54.313 --> 00:26:58.833
I want Downward Dog to be something novel that excites me every time I do it.
00:26:58.913 --> 00:27:09.483
I want a certain topic of study to constantly be, surprising me and constantly be informing me and holding me to, you know, challenging my own biases.
00:27:10.863 --> 00:27:12.053
They go hand in hand to me.
00:27:13.494 --> 00:27:22.924
Yeah, and I think we both arrive at that conclusion that science is great, science is interesting, but there's nothing quite like the magic of yoga.
00:27:23.444 --> 00:27:27.839
And I'm on your email newsletter, you recently said something about refinding yoga.
00:27:28.099 --> 00:27:29.239
the magic of yoga.
00:27:29.278 --> 00:27:34.019
And there's something that can't be described about it, that can't be understood.
00:27:34.489 --> 00:27:39.869
There's just something great and magical about it, and we don't have to have all the answers.
00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:54.316
And onto your topic of understanding questions, or looking deeper into the questions, Richard Feynman, the science philosopher, said, I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that cannot be questioned.
00:27:54.676 --> 00:27:58.476
Which is a great quote about basically holding our firm beliefs lightly.
00:27:58.676 --> 00:28:06.926
and our light beliefs firmly being open to the idea that we can be wrong, science will be wrong, things will evolve, we'll learn new things.
00:28:07.266 --> 00:28:14.359
You know, 50 years ago, we thought loading the spine in flexion was the best thing for people with osteoporosis.
00:28:14.939 --> 00:28:16.899
And then we found out, okay, it's not the best thing.
00:28:17.579 --> 00:28:18.879
Let's not say never do it.
00:28:18.909 --> 00:28:20.879
Please don't leave this podcast episode here.
00:28:21.009 --> 00:28:22.229
Oh, you must never round the back.
00:28:22.229 --> 00:28:23.999
No, it's more loaded flexion.
00:28:24.249 --> 00:28:33.089
And it's more the science found An exercise regimen characterized solely by spinal flexion exercise is probably not the most beneficial.
00:28:33.089 --> 00:28:37.028
You should get some, extension exercise in there and lateral flexion and stuff.
00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:40.209
indeed, we do learn new things.
00:28:40.379 --> 00:28:45.319
Information does change, or at least what we hold true does change from time to time.
00:28:45.489 --> 00:28:46.129
Not to say.
00:28:46.464 --> 00:28:48.524
We're in the post truth era, you know, there's still
00:28:48.824 --> 00:28:51.143
And it also, you know, it, it depends.
00:28:51.203 --> 00:29:07.673
I know that's a hard thing to understand, but it depends on what, who, it depends on, you know, loading history, it depends on genetics, it depends on da, da, da, you know, there's so much context and nuance, that is, Missed in some of those statements.
00:29:08.063 --> 00:29:18.783
it's not necessarily our responsibility to understand the context and nuance for every single individual, but it is important to understand the context and nuance for, you know, a large group.
00:29:19.113 --> 00:29:21.863
So again, it has you speak differently.
00:29:21.863 --> 00:29:27.473
It has you come from going back to that, Libby quote, the comfort, you know, like that's, that's okay.
00:29:27.473 --> 00:29:38.498
You can, you can always fall back on that instead of this yes, no, hard line in the sand, we as a society prefer the hard line in the sand because it's easier.
00:29:38.528 --> 00:29:42.988
It takes out the context and nuance, and this is exactly what public health does.
00:29:43.278 --> 00:29:45.958
Public health says, okay, cholesterol 200.
00:29:46.423 --> 00:29:47.399
Below, you're good.
00:29:47.463 --> 00:29:48.763
199, you're good.
00:29:48.763 --> 00:29:50.983
201, I'm prescribing you drugs.
00:29:51.413 --> 00:29:55.803
and that, you know, like, and I understand that we have to do that because otherwise it's chaos out there.
00:29:56.463 --> 00:30:00.003
But we don't have to operate as public health officials.
00:30:00.053 --> 00:30:04.503
We're offering people an experience in a yoga class to sense their bodies and feel.
00:30:04.763 --> 00:30:06.823
So we don't, We don't have to be so rigid,
00:30:08.224 --> 00:30:08.844
Great point.
00:30:08.954 --> 00:30:24.714
speaking of the rabbit hole of research, I'd like to ask if you could share any interesting things you've found I know you run a science of stretching seminar and you're, you're constantly looking at the latest research on stretching.
00:30:25.190 --> 00:30:31.734
And if you're thinking, well, stretching yoga are different things, yes and no, in that yoga is so much more than stretching.
00:30:31.734 --> 00:30:41.894
But if we just look at the tissue mechanics, yes, stretching is what is happening in your body when you're doing yoga for the most part, especially things that end range of motion.
00:30:41.984 --> 00:30:44.774
So, any interesting things on, stretching research?
00:30:45.074 --> 00:30:45.358
Yeah.
00:30:45.358 --> 00:30:50.688
so I do that webinar twice a year, and, it just evolves each time.
00:30:50.688 --> 00:30:51.698
It's only three hours.
00:30:51.758 --> 00:31:04.157
I follow a very firm, one in one out rule where if I add a slide, I'll run out of time, so I have to remove a slide, so you're always getting new research, but the central narrative is pretty similar.
00:31:04.267 --> 00:31:24.771
even that has changed over the years as I've separated work, but, um, I'm always looking at stretching research and you're kind of catching me like right in between cause the next one's in January and what my strategy for that, just if people are interested in how I manage my research literacy is I get an email every Monday morning.
00:31:25.161 --> 00:31:27.101
with a topic that I'm interested in.
00:31:27.101 --> 00:31:29.111
So one of those topics is obviously stretching.
00:31:29.561 --> 00:31:35.201
So I scan through and any of the papers that catch my attention, I flag.
00:31:35.551 --> 00:31:40.901
And then, in the weeks before the, so I'm aware of what's going on, but I haven't done a deep dive into them.
00:31:40.901 --> 00:31:48.141
I do that the weeks before and decide if it goes into the, if it makes it into the, into the, slideshow or not, you know, whether it's interesting.
00:31:48.151 --> 00:31:50.951
So I always have my finger on the pulse.
00:31:51.041 --> 00:32:01.281
And I think the two biggest topics right now that I find really interesting in the stretching world are pain, and hypertrophy.
00:32:01.671 --> 00:32:03.581
Those are like the two big topics.
00:32:04.121 --> 00:32:06.921
so let me just kind of talk about the pain one.
00:32:07.501 --> 00:32:19.711
so we've understood that one of the things that limits range of motion is something called stretch tolerance, which is our ability to tolerate the sensations associated with stretch.
00:32:20.861 --> 00:32:31.101
we've kind of known that since the nineties, I could speak for hours on it and I'm not going to, but, uh, but, but yes, we've known that for a while, but we really haven't understood like how that works.
00:32:31.101 --> 00:32:33.031
Now we're onto the neuroscience of stretching.
00:32:33.031 --> 00:32:33.771
what's happening there?
00:32:33.771 --> 00:32:40.676
I kind of joke lovingly that, neuroscientists have way more important things to research other than range of motion because
00:32:41.432 --> 00:32:41.672
Mm
00:32:41.972 --> 00:32:47.759
I hope all of our neuroscientists out there aren't spending all their time on range of motion because it's not that important.
00:32:48.330 --> 00:32:56.540
So, so that's kind of one of the reasons why it's been a very slow, progression of how does stretch tolerance work, you know?
00:32:57.002 --> 00:32:57.719
Of
00:32:58.069 --> 00:32:58.329
do it again.
00:32:58.585 --> 00:33:02.515
they're going to look at Alzheimer's, dementia, these sorts of things.
00:33:02.515 --> 00:33:05.275
Like, how can we prevent these things, slow these things?
00:33:05.315 --> 00:33:06.405
And yes, that does
00:33:06.949 --> 00:33:10.028
Important things, important things that really help.
00:33:10.038 --> 00:33:11.528
Yes, exactly.
00:33:12.069 --> 00:33:27.424
as more neuroscience is being studied, there's more information and And so I think in the pain science world, we've learned a lot through some neuroscience there as well, because we, you know, we're learning about the biology of pain and biology of learning
00:33:27.424 --> 00:33:27.634
hmm.
00:33:27.634 --> 00:33:27.985
Mm
00:33:29.074 --> 00:33:34.274
And now there's some really interesting studies coming out that are looking at.
00:33:34.894 --> 00:33:41.324
different ways of kind of tricking the brain so that you can improve range of motion.
00:33:41.564 --> 00:33:45.344
And it's not like they're not doing it because more range of motion is better.
00:33:45.538 --> 00:33:49.174
They're doing it to try to understand how stretch tolerance works, you know?
00:33:49.174 --> 00:33:54.704
And so they're, you know, they've got like, out of Scandinavia, they've got a couple of studies where they put a hand.
00:33:55.159 --> 00:34:07.871
your hand in ice cold water, like zero, one degree Celsius and expect that your, that your brain basically, creates that descending inhibition that it kind of floods your body with chemicals so that you don't sense it.
00:34:07.891 --> 00:34:11.110
And then they have greater range of motion, which is kind of interesting.
00:34:11.331 --> 00:34:14.210
Now that doesn't again, this is about research literacy.
00:34:14.385 --> 00:34:20.235
That doesn't mean that you should now have all of your yoga students put their hand in cold water for Supta Padangusthasana.
00:34:20.585 --> 00:34:23.085
the research isn't trying to make people more flexible.
00:34:23.085 --> 00:34:29.076
The research is trying to figure out how this works, it doesn't have an immediate application and that's unsatisfying to people.
00:34:29.085 --> 00:34:31.726
Sometimes people leave my webinar and they're like, So now what?
00:34:31.775 --> 00:34:33.865
I'm like, just keep teaching the way you're teaching.
00:34:34.601 --> 00:34:34.985
Yeah,
00:34:35.342 --> 00:34:36.996
it's just interesting stuff.
00:34:37.355 --> 00:34:39.585
I'm always reviewing research in my mentoring program.
00:34:40.085 --> 00:34:49.976
That same team did a really nice systematic review on stretching for people with fibromyalgia and whether or not stretching helps them with their pain.
00:34:50.275 --> 00:34:51.855
So it kind of goes the other way now.
00:34:51.855 --> 00:35:04.226
It's not looking at range of motion, but can we use the What understanding how the brain responds to stretch sensations does that maybe also create some descending inhibition and then inhibit some pain?
00:35:04.246 --> 00:35:08.380
So, That big broad topic is very interesting to me right now.
00:35:08.380 --> 00:35:11.530
you can expect to see more of that in January.
00:35:12.101 --> 00:35:16.530
potentially listeners listening to this, you're referring to January 2025,
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:18.231
it's every January and July,
00:35:18.532 --> 00:35:18.822
every
00:35:18.851 --> 00:35:20.380
every January and July.
00:35:20.420 --> 00:35:22.150
it makes it easy for people to plan.
00:35:22.150 --> 00:35:23.081
I always have two up.
00:35:23.340 --> 00:35:29.001
You can even set for next January as well, 2025, but it's easier for everybody if we just stay on a calendar.
00:35:29.201 --> 00:35:29.590
yes.
00:35:31.172 --> 00:35:31.811
Great.
00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:51.380
and then the other topic is hypertrophy, which is something we call stretch induced hypertrophy, which is if you stretch under specific conditions, um, which is extreme, uh, but you can actually, hypertrophy is build muscle and it's longitudinal hypertrophy, not cross sectional area.
00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:52.800
So you're not getting swole.
00:35:53.240 --> 00:36:03.480
And that is a really interesting topic to me because I've been reading, stretching research for 12, 14 years in that range now.
00:36:04.070 --> 00:36:11.181
And the subjects, the opinions have changed massively, you know, back the early 2000s.
00:36:11.181 --> 00:36:13.240
2000s.
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:18.020
Early 2010s, there was just a lot of stretching is dumb, stretching is bad.
00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:20.480
Stretching makes you weak, stretching makes you slow.
00:36:21.350 --> 00:36:23.960
that research is now in the mainstream.
00:36:24.010 --> 00:36:26.641
And I'm like, yeah, I mean, we have research for that.
00:36:27.150 --> 00:36:42.523
but there's a little extra stuff happening in the world of researching what titin is and how titin plays a role and how mechanical tension is the driver for hypertrophy, which we understand from resistance training.
00:36:43.080 --> 00:36:49.650
And so now we're seeing that, under certain conditions, we can actually, Get longitudinal hypertrophy.
00:36:49.701 --> 00:36:50.340
what does that mean?
00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:54.610
Does that mean that you should go out and stretch everybody in their yoga, yoga class to your maximum end range?
00:36:54.650 --> 00:36:56.080
No, that's not what this is.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:03.754
You know, it's just really like, Oh, what a cool thing that we're actually understanding muscle physiology on a deeper level.
00:37:03.974 --> 00:37:11.324
I remember reading about titin, the, protein like actin, myosin, titin in 2013, 2014.
00:37:11.644 --> 00:37:21.605
there were four different hypotheses and all of research groups would write letters to the editor of the journal to say why that's not a good hypothesis and why theirs is better.
00:37:21.844 --> 00:37:26.004
I remember like, And here we are 10 years later, and we actually have a leader of the pack.
00:37:26.025 --> 00:37:29.574
We have a hypothesis that's been, replicated and validated.
00:37:29.824 --> 00:37:32.174
it's really fun to watch that growth.
00:37:32.534 --> 00:37:43.504
Like I remember lecturing about titin in 2014 in my courses it was so uncertain at the time that I ended up taking it out because like, didn't really help a yoga teacher anyway.
00:37:43.534 --> 00:37:47.164
And now it's back in because we know so much that it's worth lecturing about again.
00:37:47.574 --> 00:37:50.065
I'm really excited to see where that goes in the next five years.
00:37:50.414 --> 00:37:50.714
Yeah.
00:37:50.764 --> 00:38:01.704
So when I teach in a teacher training program and we're covering the muscle tissue module and we're looking at sarcomeres, I only mention actin myosin so as to not bog people down.
00:38:02.454 --> 00:38:05.934
can you share what is that leading hypothesis on titin?
00:38:06.234 --> 00:38:11.844
We've always known we've had titin but it's always been considered very passive, which it actually, you know, it is passive.
00:38:12.244 --> 00:38:24.429
But, there are some papers that say, we should update our sliding filament theory and call it like the three filament model, because titin does actually play pretty huge role.
00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:27.460
It interacts with actin directly and calcium.
00:38:27.809 --> 00:38:30.179
but when titin gets stretched.
00:38:30.866 --> 00:38:41.025
To long lengths, it actually has very high stiffness and that stiffness is that mechanical tension that promotes longitudinal hypertrophy.
00:38:41.025 --> 00:38:43.784
I'm being very careful not to say sarcomerogenesis.
00:38:43.784 --> 00:38:57.440
I'm, I'm very, being very careful to say longitudinal hypertrophy because fascicle length, like that's still for me, there are people that have strong opinions one way or another, but for me, there's not enough information and not enough Science behind it for me to make a strong statement.
00:38:57.859 --> 00:39:01.980
So, how the longitudinal hypertrophy exactly occurs, we're totally not certain.
00:39:02.339 --> 00:39:04.460
Again, these are just limitations of technology.
00:39:04.779 --> 00:39:06.940
Once we get better technology, we will know.
00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:08.699
It's just, we need advancement to happen.
00:39:09.509 --> 00:39:15.944
But so, titin, it really increases the mechanical tension within the sarcomere, and that's The mechanism.
00:39:16.014 --> 00:39:18.634
And what's so interesting is it answers a lot of questions.
00:39:19.045 --> 00:39:26.644
if you remember, studying early in school, concentric contractions versus isometric contractions versus eccentric contractions.
00:39:27.194 --> 00:39:36.052
we really didn't have a way to explain why eccentric contractions were such high load contractions, why we could tolerate so force, even beyond crossbridge formation.
00:39:36.052 --> 00:39:37.722
We had no way of explaining that.
00:39:38.032 --> 00:39:41.187
I remember my college professors just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, Eccentrics.
00:39:41.208 --> 00:39:42.117
Okay, break time.
00:39:42.127 --> 00:39:44.927
You know, like they didn't have a way of explaining it.
00:39:44.927 --> 00:39:46.387
So they just didn't cover it.
00:39:46.687 --> 00:39:49.248
And now we actually understand that it is titin.
00:39:49.248 --> 00:39:50.417
We have a way of explaining it.
00:39:50.417 --> 00:39:55.978
I think it'll be a while before it shows up in textbooks and in classrooms, but it's pretty cool.
00:39:57.423 --> 00:40:00.324
And that can also be, why less energy is required,
00:40:00.447 --> 00:40:00.623
yep.
00:40:01.187 --> 00:40:02.748
It's that passive mechanical tension.
00:40:03.177 --> 00:40:04.577
And then, of course, it depends.
00:40:04.577 --> 00:40:10.507
So, it depends under certain conditions and, and titin, because it's viscoelastic, doesn't have linear behavior.
00:40:10.887 --> 00:40:14.447
And so, it has to be in like the, the, stretched phase.
00:40:14.447 --> 00:40:17.632
And so, Your stretch tolerance might not ever get you there.
00:40:17.942 --> 00:40:21.312
So that's why we might not see consistent results across studies.
00:40:21.612 --> 00:40:31.732
and also there's no way of knowing, you know, where that person is because of genetics and, it's going to vary among people and it's going to vary among muscle groups, like the quads and the biceps might be different.
00:40:31.732 --> 00:40:35.994
And so, yeah, it doesn't change the way you teach yoga, but it's cool information.
00:40:36.844 --> 00:40:39.414
We've very much gotten into the weeds here, haven't we?
00:40:39.704 --> 00:40:41.545
And yet, it's fascinating.
00:40:41.815 --> 00:40:43.525
Again, it won't change yoga.
00:40:44.105 --> 00:40:45.684
You know, what's the best kind of yoga?
00:40:45.724 --> 00:40:48.243
The kind that has been going on, and keep doing that, you know?
00:40:48.543 --> 00:40:53.453
But it will change the way you say stretching at end range is bad or stretching It will change your language
00:40:53.594 --> 00:40:54.224
I don't say that.
00:40:55.143 --> 00:40:55.474
Yes.
00:40:55.775 --> 00:40:56.454
I don't say that.
00:40:56.504 --> 00:40:58.295
but there are people you know what I'm saying?
00:40:59.225 --> 00:41:00.435
yeah, absolutely.
00:41:00.685 --> 00:41:08.735
And so that's why it is important to learn about this stuff so we have a better knowledge of how the body works, and we can make more informed decisions.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:18.130
Both, in terms of medicine and helping people who are not well or who are injured, but also improving performance or function or just because it's fascinating to know.
00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:24.161
And, you know, you know, people study astrophysics, not because it's helping us here on earth, but just it's cool.
00:41:24.230 --> 00:41:25.080
And that's great.
00:41:29.007 --> 00:41:30.498
on to a different topic altogether.
00:41:31.057 --> 00:41:33.297
Hamstring tendinopathy, Jules.
00:41:34.177 --> 00:41:44.478
So what's commonly known as yoga butt this idea of what is more correctly referred to as proximal hamstring tendinopathy.
00:41:45.601 --> 00:42:07.144
it is often associated with yoga, but so far, it seems, on an anecdotal level, I don't think as of yet, there's great research to show that yoga contributes more to hamstring tendinopathy than other forms, and interestingly, people who are sedentary can have this hamstring tendinopathy, and it basically presents as a feeling of soreness.
00:42:07.509 --> 00:42:11.079
at the bottom of the buttock, perhaps worse when stretching.
00:42:12.312 --> 00:42:16.853
I've looked at the research and I have actually Holger Kramer scheduled to come
00:42:16.876 --> 00:42:17.547
Oh, nice.
00:42:17.922 --> 00:42:18.792
the podcast.
00:42:18.842 --> 00:42:24.652
and he's done a lot of research on yoga injuries, how safe yoga is in relation to other forms of exercise.
00:42:25.062 --> 00:42:39.842
of course, research is just one small lens of a larger picture, but based on my reading of the research, hamstring tendinopathy has not shown as more common than other forms of injuries or, adverse side effects in yoga practitioners.
00:42:40.262 --> 00:42:44.022
So my questions for you, do you think it's more common?
00:42:44.623 --> 00:42:47.272
If so, why does it happen and what should we be doing?
00:42:47.333 --> 00:43:00.132
if load helps tissues recover, why is it that, stretching might aggravate someone's hamstring tendinopathy and yet increasing the load by doing strength training will actually help it.
00:43:00.732 --> 00:43:01.962
Can you help us decipher that?
00:43:02.106 --> 00:43:02.556
Oh boy.
00:43:02.556 --> 00:43:04.067
This is a big question.
00:43:04.922 --> 00:43:06.022
I know.
00:43:06.322 --> 00:43:08.502
It's like an hour of one of my workshops.
00:43:08.522 --> 00:43:09.242
Um,
00:43:10.013 --> 00:43:11.388
Well, the, Mmhmm.
00:43:11.388 --> 00:43:12.013
Mmhmm.
00:43:12.313 --> 00:43:17.656
Um, let me start with yoga injuries, incidents.
00:43:19.156 --> 00:43:31.791
I think we have a lot of research on it, but this kind of research is very hard to make sense of because they're mostly done by surveys.
00:43:32.751 --> 00:43:38.761
Which require recall and surveys are just not the best way of doing research.
00:43:39.311 --> 00:43:46.041
and so you always get this wide variety of things, you know, I mean, I've done webinars on all of these.
00:43:46.811 --> 00:43:48.801
Synthesizing all of that safety research.
00:43:49.092 --> 00:43:53.601
there are going to be some things that stand out more than others and, hamstring tendinopathy is not one of them.
00:43:54.021 --> 00:43:54.922
you're right about that.
00:43:55.601 --> 00:44:01.382
but tendinopathies in general as a, that is a category that is prevalent.
00:44:02.031 --> 00:44:07.351
The thing is with those surveys, there's really no cause and effect relationship that comes out of that kind of data.
00:44:07.931 --> 00:44:09.501
People get tendinopathies.
00:44:10.146 --> 00:44:14.676
Just from being sedentary, like you said, sedentary people get hamstring tendinopathies.
00:44:15.076 --> 00:44:20.655
So do sprinters, and so do hurdlers who do end range things and so do sedentary.
00:44:21.166 --> 00:44:31.658
So The reason we call it tendinopathy and not tendinitis is because the only thing that needs to be present in a tendinopathy for diagnosis is pain, You don't need a histological examination.
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:33.971
I got a thing in my ankle for no reason.
00:44:34.048 --> 00:44:41.068
I just appeared one day, you know, but if, if all of my activity is yoga, I might relate it to yoga, right?
00:44:41.148 --> 00:44:45.109
so these Types of studies where we're just collecting information from populations.
00:44:45.371 --> 00:44:50.721
good information, but it's very hard to say yoga causes labral tears like we like that.
00:44:51.961 --> 00:44:59.801
The, the type of study you would need to do would be, you'd have to control so many factors and you'd have to follow people for 30 years.
00:44:59.801 --> 00:45:03.061
The researchers wouldn't even, they'd be retired before the study was done.
00:45:03.351 --> 00:45:05.461
You know, It's just hard to collect that kind of data.
00:45:05.922 --> 00:45:09.192
And there's another study that actually looks at what goes to a radio.
00:45:09.221 --> 00:45:10.402
I talk about it in my book.
00:45:10.701 --> 00:45:19.882
Um, goes to a radiography center and scans the past 10 years for the word yoga, they look at a scan, but even that is hard to be conclusive.
00:45:19.922 --> 00:45:24.277
Let's just say, for example, I have a rotator cuff tear on my right side.
00:45:24.522 --> 00:45:25.492
my shoulder never hurt.
00:45:25.512 --> 00:45:28.226
I just found it on accident doing an MRI for something else.
00:45:28.452 --> 00:45:28.672
Okay.
00:45:29.202 --> 00:45:30.103
I can do everything.
00:45:30.103 --> 00:45:31.362
I do overhead presses.
00:45:31.402 --> 00:45:33.422
I do handstands regularly.
00:45:33.452 --> 00:45:35.692
I play tennis and it's my serving arm.
00:45:35.692 --> 00:45:37.032
I play tennis five times a week.
00:45:37.382 --> 00:45:39.873
I have zero pain, zero limitations.
00:45:39.902 --> 00:45:41.413
I just happened to have a rotator cuff tear.
00:45:42.052 --> 00:45:42.952
Let's say I didn't know that.
00:45:43.492 --> 00:45:45.032
And all I did was yoga.
00:45:45.522 --> 00:45:51.812
And I went to a sweaty class and did Pinchamayurasana, forearm stand and slipped and my shoulder hurt.
00:45:52.373 --> 00:45:55.572
And I went and got an MRI and I have a rotator cuff tear.
00:45:56.022 --> 00:46:00.362
Would be very easy for me to conclude that it was caused in the yoga class.
00:46:00.882 --> 00:46:05.742
But if I didn't have an MRI before the adverse event occurred, then how do I know?
00:46:05.762 --> 00:46:11.682
And if you look at tendinopathy research, you really understand that tendons have a metabolism.
00:46:11.682 --> 00:46:17.322
There's high turnover and, So this is already a really complicated topic, as you can see.
00:46:17.782 --> 00:46:26.588
so it is what it is, you know, there's no way of saying that the yoga causes these things, but now we do care about certain things in yoga.
00:46:26.958 --> 00:46:28.699
We do care about shoulder pain.
00:46:28.728 --> 00:46:34.608
We care about, I hate the term yoga, butt, but you know, we care about proximal hamstring tendinopathy.
00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:38.239
We care about it when people have sitting bone pain, So now what do we do about it?
00:46:38.808 --> 00:46:39.858
What is it caused by?
00:46:40.739 --> 00:46:47.378
Well, again, without a histological examination, without pre and post imaging, how the hell would we know I don't know what it's caused by.
00:46:47.628 --> 00:46:50.638
Is it caused by a high tendon metabolism?
00:46:50.898 --> 00:47:01.259
we have an understanding that people with higher tendon metabolisms are more prone to tendinopathies because the metabolism means synthesis and degradation, and it can go both directions.
00:47:01.268 --> 00:47:02.068
Do you know what I'm saying?
00:47:03.338 --> 00:47:04.259
so much there.
00:47:04.688 --> 00:47:05.778
So how do we work with it?
00:47:06.158 --> 00:47:08.469
Well, let's just not sensitize them more.
00:47:08.748 --> 00:47:13.648
if deep forward bending sensitizes the hamstring tendon, don't do it.
00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:15.878
Back off for a while.
00:47:16.158 --> 00:47:16.628
Okay.
00:47:16.668 --> 00:47:19.668
Now loading is also good, right?
00:47:19.668 --> 00:47:22.868
So you said, why is, why is heavy loading better than stretching?
00:47:23.708 --> 00:47:25.918
Um, I don't for certain know that it is.
00:47:26.868 --> 00:47:33.368
the research and my bias says that it is, but I don't know that it is.
00:47:33.418 --> 00:47:37.128
That tendinopathy could resolve on its own through maybe gentle stretching.
00:47:37.128 --> 00:47:38.918
I've heard people say Yin has helped them.
00:47:39.158 --> 00:47:40.199
So I don't know.
00:47:40.908 --> 00:47:41.878
But my bias,
00:47:42.210 --> 00:47:53.690
Well I think, I'm not a physical therapist of course, but I think a standard action when someone reports having hamstring tendinopathy is to go about trying to strengthen the hamstrings.
00:47:53.889 --> 00:47:57.009
Once things have settled down, and so I think that's why, you know,
00:47:57.309 --> 00:47:59.038
because that is the protocol in the research.
00:47:59.088 --> 00:47:59.388
yeah.
00:48:00.317 --> 00:48:08.228
the reason that would be different than stretching is because when you actively contract the hamstring muscle, it's going to pull on the tendon.
00:48:08.677 --> 00:48:10.937
So it's going to be higher tension on the tendon.
00:48:11.577 --> 00:48:14.307
And this is, I think, where people struggle to wrap their brain around it.
00:48:14.407 --> 00:48:17.807
if you're doing a really heavy lift, you're putting more tension on the tendon.
00:48:18.107 --> 00:48:19.917
Well, isn't that stretching the tendon?
00:48:21.007 --> 00:48:30.197
so now you're saying that actually heavy stretching is what the protocol is, cause that's what loading the hamstring is, is putting high levels of tension on the tendon.
00:48:30.557 --> 00:48:32.877
So that's where I had to say, I don't know.
00:48:33.107 --> 00:48:36.478
it may be not that stretching itself is the aggravating factor.
00:48:36.788 --> 00:48:41.987
Because if you just do a passive stretch, that's lower load tension on the tendon.
00:48:42.277 --> 00:48:47.127
it might not be worse It might be just not enough to produce an adaptation.
00:48:47.607 --> 00:48:50.817
but in some people, maybe it desensitizes them.
00:48:50.867 --> 00:48:51.467
I don't know.
00:48:51.487 --> 00:49:00.567
So, I do have a theory and we have some research on it, but I'm always cautious when I say this because it makes people think end range is bad and end range is not bad.
00:49:00.962 --> 00:49:08.882
But I do think that when you're in very, very deep hip flexion, the tendon sort of wraps around the bone and gets some lateral compression forces.
00:49:09.252 --> 00:49:19.342
and that happens when you're sitting a lot people that sit a lot tend to get hamstring tendinopathies and a lot of end range people tend to get, tend to get them or end range activity, people who do end range activities.
00:49:19.797 --> 00:49:21.337
And so maybe that's a part of it.
00:49:21.467 --> 00:49:24.127
maybe it's not that the stretching is what makes it worse.
00:49:24.167 --> 00:49:28.567
It's like we're constantly going to end range, just kind of resensitizing it.
00:49:28.917 --> 00:49:35.327
So maybe gentle stretching where you back off a little, which, you know, again, depending on your stretch tolerance.
00:49:36.087 --> 00:49:41.337
If you don't have, if you don't have end range, then it's not even an issue for you, right?
00:49:41.337 --> 00:49:45.307
So like, you can't just say stretching across the board isn't as effective.
00:49:45.663 --> 00:49:49.436
I just think it's a lower load intervention, I guess is what I'm getting at.
00:49:49.996 --> 00:49:52.746
but we don't have studies that look at all of these things.
00:49:54.186 --> 00:49:56.257
So that's where I'm at.
00:49:56.257 --> 00:49:59.896
I don't know if that answers all of your questions.
00:50:00.277 --> 00:50:02.076
it's really hard to do a cause and effect.
00:50:03.297 --> 00:50:10.967
Again, we're not physios, so I try not to give physical therapy advice, my approach is my job as a yoga teacher.
00:50:10.967 --> 00:50:20.286
And your jobs as yoga teacher is to give people their yoga back is that is to teach people the poses and have them do the poses they like and have the poses.
00:50:20.676 --> 00:50:24.446
that bother them, make them doable for them.
00:50:24.656 --> 00:50:27.976
So for some people that's going to be engaging the hamstrings in a forward fold.
00:50:28.051 --> 00:50:30.206
For some people, that's going to be backing off end range.
00:50:30.507 --> 00:50:37.996
For some people that's going to be, you know, that, that, that, you know, only doing a standing forward fold with the upper body supported on blocks, hands on block.
00:50:38.266 --> 00:50:40.527
You're going to have to figure that out with your students.
00:50:40.706 --> 00:50:44.196
if they really want treatment for a tendinopathy, they should go see someone.
00:50:44.336 --> 00:50:45.946
You're just trying to help them do their yoga.
00:50:47.268 --> 00:50:47.657
Exactly.
00:50:47.706 --> 00:50:48.326
my take on it.
00:50:49.417 --> 00:50:55.167
in a teacher training, I would say, what does this yoga teacher certification certify you to do?
00:50:55.297 --> 00:50:56.467
There's a bit of a pause
00:50:56.766 --> 00:50:57.811
hmm.
00:50:57.877 --> 00:50:58.387
teach yoga.
00:50:59.077 --> 00:51:06.047
and let that be liberating information that you don't, need to, you're not expected to solve everyone's problems
00:51:06.047 --> 00:51:14.687
And you can teach yoga to people with tendinopathies without the, you know, direct, like I'm, I'm treating you, you know, it's just like, okay, let's, let's get you back to forward folds.
00:51:14.897 --> 00:51:15.887
It's going to be a journey.
00:51:16.057 --> 00:51:17.587
this is where tissue mechanics helps.
00:51:17.877 --> 00:51:30.512
Understanding tendon, tendon, like if you followed this whole conversation, you know, I said a lot of terms about mechanical tension and, you know, like, this is helpful, it helps you troubleshoot, it gives you the confidence to, Provide a suggestion at the end of the day.
00:51:30.512 --> 00:51:36.123
The person gets to tell you how they responded to that high load, low load, end range, whatever.
00:51:36.362 --> 00:51:40.902
And then you work together so that they can continue to come to your yoga classes and do their forward folds.
00:51:42.592 --> 00:51:43.172
Great.
00:51:43.222 --> 00:51:45.002
that's a nice finishing point.
00:51:45.471 --> 00:51:45.902
Yeah.
00:51:47.052 --> 00:51:51.672
So, Jules, I think listeners, if they didn't catch all the terms,
00:51:51.971 --> 00:51:52.141
Mm
00:51:52.732 --> 00:51:55.092
I think they'll definitely know, wow, this is a smart woman.
00:51:55.353 --> 00:51:56.532
She knows what she's talking about.
00:51:56.792 --> 00:51:59.962
And if they're thinking, I want to study more with her, what should they
00:52:00.262 --> 00:52:02.422
Just go to my website, julesmitchell.
00:52:02.422 --> 00:52:02.761
com.
00:52:02.801 --> 00:52:04.701
I have so much stuff there.
00:52:04.741 --> 00:52:07.031
I'm constantly running courses.
00:52:08.301 --> 00:52:12.101
And I'll include that in the show notes, but could you share it now also?
00:52:12.451 --> 00:52:13.431
oh, julesmitchell.
00:52:13.431 --> 00:52:13.771
com.
00:52:14.021 --> 00:52:17.692
Just my name, just J U L E S julesmitchell.
00:52:17.692 --> 00:52:18.021
com.
00:52:18.431 --> 00:52:23.081
If you just type in yoga biomechanics into Google, you'll land on my site.
00:52:23.331 --> 00:52:23.657
So,
00:52:23.958 --> 00:52:24.337
That's right.
00:52:24.337 --> 00:52:25.197
You're easy enough to find.
00:52:25.197 --> 00:52:26.437
And you're also on the socials,
00:52:26.442 --> 00:52:27.721
Yep, I'm on the socials.
00:52:27.741 --> 00:52:28.092
Yep.
00:52:28.132 --> 00:52:28.411
Yep.
00:52:28.461 --> 00:52:29.951
Jules yoga is on Instagram.
00:52:29.961 --> 00:52:33.911
That's why I'm the most but Yeah, I'm on the socials.
00:52:35.487 --> 00:52:38.288
any closing thoughts you'd like to share
00:52:39.728 --> 00:52:42.507
I am doing What I call a book club.
00:52:42.637 --> 00:52:49.077
I know you guys do a book club as well I kind of stopped doing them because I got tired of doing it over and over.
00:52:49.427 --> 00:52:54.437
But people are still finding my book and so I'm offering it again.
00:52:54.498 --> 00:52:58.687
And so that's coming up in January and I'll probably do one a year, moving forward.
00:52:59.107 --> 00:53:01.518
if you want help, reading my book.
00:53:02.047 --> 00:53:15.297
you read one chapter a week we do one hour on Zoom a week you submit questions in advance and I give you study questions I really help you make sense of all those graphs because not everybody likes geometry and graphs,
00:53:16.533 --> 00:53:17.824
Yeah, exactly.
00:53:18.013 --> 00:53:18.833
Same with our book.
00:53:18.833 --> 00:53:22.864
It just helps you get through the book because otherwise it's one that just stays by your bedside.
00:53:23.193 --> 00:53:24.333
You're like, Oh, I'll get to it later.
00:53:24.937 --> 00:53:26.877
And, and I hope, I help you make meaning of it.
00:53:26.917 --> 00:53:37.967
I hope you put it in context of yoga, which is where the book doesn't have that because it's hard to write a science based book and make meaning because then all of a sudden it's not science based anymore.
00:53:38.407 --> 00:53:45.777
so the, the, you know, the, the casual nature of the conversations are where we kind of tease out what it means and what it doesn't mean and all of that.
00:53:47.348 --> 00:53:54.528
There's nothing like a human telling you what the research is saying, because it's so much easier to grasp it, to understand it.
00:53:55.158 --> 00:54:03.878
I should also say perhaps an AI bot, because they're getting as good at summarizing it, And perhaps we can save, that for another chat for another day.
00:54:04.838 --> 00:54:08.648
Um, but Jules, I feel like I get smarter every time I talk to you.
00:54:09.728 --> 00:54:12.328
So thank you so much for being here.
00:54:12.358 --> 00:54:14.449
Thank you for being generous with your time.
00:54:14.498 --> 00:54:15.498
I really appreciate it.
00:54:15.588 --> 00:54:17.368
And I look forward to keeping in touch with you.
00:54:18.009 --> 00:54:18.878
Thanks for having me.
00:54:19.894 --> 00:54:20.315
awesome.
00:54:20.364 --> 00:54:21.344
Thank you very much.
00:54:23.688 --> 00:54:26.938
Thank you for listening to the Enlightened Anatomy Podcast.
00:54:27.788 --> 00:54:31.658
We would be grateful if you would leave a review and a five star rating.
00:54:32.378 --> 00:54:38.918
Be sure to tune in next time for more science based knowledge to get enlightened and help others.