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Music.
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Influence podcast from ACEC. My name is Thomas Grogan, Senior Director,
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Economics and Market Intelligence here at ACEC, and I'm also the Staff Director
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for the Technology Committee.
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We're really excited today to have Justin Webster, Chief Technology Officer
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from HDR, on our call today. Justin, thanks for being here.
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Happy to be here. Thanks, Thomas. Great.
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So, you know, I'm just going to dive in with some questions that we have for
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you, and then also want to learn a bit about your work and your day-to-day at HDR.
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But one question we've been asking all our guests on the podcast this year to
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kind of kick things off is, what does digital transformation mean to you?
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Yeah, I mean, fundamentally to me, it means applying technology in new and exciting
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ways, whether it be automation,
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whether it be generative capabilities, or whether it just means digitalizing
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previously manual processes,
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it just means leveling up our organizations with modern technologies and capabilities
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to deliver better products, more value to our clients, whether those clients
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are internal or external.
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It's really about doing better work faster.
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Yeah, that's really interesting when you talk about leveling up and kind of,
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let's say, modernizing.
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Can you talk a little bit about kind of what your day-to-day role is as the
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chief technology officer at a firm like HDR and how you incorporate some of
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these principles of modernizing,
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leveling up, digitizing old documents, things like that?
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Yeah, I mean, really, my job is to help our organization realize our strategic
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plan and doing that through the application of technology and our technology
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strategy to achieve those aims,
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right, those aspirational goals that we have as an organization.
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And so from a day-to-day standpoint, it's a mix of kind of envisioning strategic
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initiatives to the operational execution of our technology projects,
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as well as just our operations, overseeing our operations,
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whether it be cyber security, technology infrastructure,
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our design applications, et cetera, et cetera.
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It's kind of a soup to nuts thinking about technology holistically and how it enables our firms.
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Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, something we've heard from CTOs,
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CIOs at other member firms is kind of, you know, you start with your business strategy,
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the business plan, the business model first, kind of have the technology follow support that.
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How do you kind of think about connecting the dots between, you know,
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your business strategy or strategic initiatives and having, you know,
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alignment across your technology functions?
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Yeah, I think it's a challenge, obviously, but it's an exciting one at that.
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I think, you know, really technology is a key enabler. It's a key enabler for
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organizations of all sorts and industries.
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Industries and you know when i think about it in our particular space
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it's really about how do we create the
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capabilities to augment our people to deliver
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our services and realize outcomes that benefit our world and when we think about
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it in that kind of macro lens you know it's really an exciting fulfilling proposition
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not that it's any easier it's it's certainly a challenge but it's exciting one
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at that and you know i've always been fundamentally curious and interested in technology And so,
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you know, it's really a sweet spot for me because I'm excited every day to come
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in and say, how can we do things, leveraging technology capabilities to realize
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better outcomes that our business is seeking?
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Yeah. And, you know, I guess you mentioned you've had this passion for technology
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for a while. I know you've worked outside the AEC professional services world.
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What sort of examples or lessons or maybe even mistakes have you seen in other
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industries from your experience working on technology with respect to financial services,
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items like that, that you're kind of going to bring into working in the AEC space? Sure.
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Well, I think that, you know, it's common for, you know, it probably doesn't
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even matter industry in many respects.
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I think that sometimes there's really interesting hype or technologies that
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come on the scene, emerging capabilities.
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And one is to leap too quickly to believe that, you know, the profound changes
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here and now, this instant,
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typically it follows that kind of hype cycle that Gartner talks about,
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right, where there's this peak of inflated expectations followed by a trough of disillusionment.
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And there's a couple things that happen there. One is thinking that something's
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here for prime time a little too early.
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And then the second thing is dismissing something when it looks like it goes
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into that trough of disillusionment and really sticking with it and following through,
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being able to dismiss the particular technologies that just aren't going going
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to work and being able to discern the ones that know this,
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we should be staying with this and working through those kind of more challenging
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aspects of those technologies to realize the benefit over time.
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So, you know, one part is just kind of staying with it and staying disciplined
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in terms of the emerging technologies.
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The other thing is like chasing shiny objects that are just too far out there.
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And, you know, one of the things when Gen AI came on the scene with ChatGPT and other models.
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It was really interesting, but it seemed like a lot of different players wanted
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to go create foundation models. And that's not for the faint of heart.
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Organizations like Google and Microsoft, OpenAI and others are spending billions
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of dollars doing those things.
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Those are not activities that we should be doing as an AEC firm.
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What we should be doing is leveraging those capabilities with our own capabilities
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to achieve goals and objectives and outcomes in the AEC industry, right?
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So those are the problems we should be solving. And it's really about focusing
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on the right problems and solving the right problems practically.
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Yeah, no, that makes sense. So, you know, what do you have any maybe examples
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of some technologies that maybe have been through this trough of disillusionment
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recently that you kind of are hopeful that five,
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10 years from now, you know, we'll still be around?
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Or, you know, we'll, let's say, morph or leverage into something a bit more
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productive, or basically, you know, we shouldn't be dismissing right away.
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Way oh this this is quite a few
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right yeah you could you could get me talking all day on on this
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particular topic some you know i'll take some
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are virtual reality right that's a capability that has visualization in general
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is really exciting but it's it's just taking time to work through that in a
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meaningful meaningful way to have like the maximum impact i'm not saying i'm
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not dismissing the technology as something that isn't useful.
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It's just nobody really wants to wear a heavy headset covering their eyes for
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lengthy periods of time.
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So I think around the miniaturization and making the form factor fit comfortably
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in ways that are, I guess, not against human nature.
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Again, covering our eyes and not knowing what's immediately around us is not
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natural as human beings.
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Those kinds of things have to
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get worked through. And I think they will continue to be worked through.
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And we see lots of progress, but it's a long, kind of a long journey to get there.
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And I think that's one that's key to keep in mind and kind of what you're talking
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about. Blockchain is another one that I've been following even from financial services.
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It's a really interesting and capable technology. But in many,
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many instances, it was a technology looking for a use case outside of the kind
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of the crypto currency realm.
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Not that there isn't applicable use cases out there, but there are maybe not
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as many as people originally thought.
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And various forms of AI is also kind of playing out now as well,
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including generative AI.
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I think that the capability of kind of that general purpose or AGI is still
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coming about, still evolving, still maturing.
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It's not maybe as far along as some would lend you to believe.
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And so So we're looking at where can we incorporate, you know,
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those technologies effectively today in the here and now in a really responsible manner.
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Yeah, no, that's very interesting. And the VR example is something that,
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you know, maybe eight years ago, 10 years ago was a bit of hype or maybe more
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the use case was really for like gaming, right?
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Those people might be okay wearing a full-on headset, but I actually read just
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the other day an interesting stat from IDC that was that this year.
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The number of the new meta Facebook Ray-Ban augmented glasses that they made
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is going to sell like 10x more than the Apple Vision Pro,
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which is more that kind of full wraparound headset as opposed to kind of more cool looking Ray-Bans.
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And, you know, I guess that really does kind of speak to your point of,
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you know, really aligning the technology with what the users are going to care
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about or be comfortable with and, you know, make it practical.
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So, you know, with respect to, say, technology and technology strategy,
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which takes input from a business strategy, what are these other components
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of the technology strategy that someone working at a firm should think about
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with respect to either business models, data,
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you know, all your IT information systems?
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How do you kind of think about a technology strategy or what a technology strategy
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101 would be for someone who's, you know, stepping into a first-time CTO or
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head of innovation role?
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Yeah, I haven't talked about that. I mean, there's a lot of layers to that particular question.
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I mean, I think we could, it's another one that we could dive really deep into
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and spend some really lengthy time talking about to do it justice.
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But, you know, obviously there's kind of that.
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Outcome aspect of it. Like, what are we trying to achieve?
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And then technology strategy is that critical enabler.
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Like, how do we put those technology components in that align to achieving those
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outcomes and those objectives?
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And when I started thinking about those kinds of things, I started thinking
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about, well, what are the technologies that are those critical enablers to allow
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us to achieve those outcomes that we seek?
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And there's the technology component of it that, you know, is obvious.
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But then there's also, I think, a lot about our people and our skills.
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Like, how do we enable our people to leverage technologies or even be able to
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operate and implement these kinds of technologies that would get us to those
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particular objectives that we seek?
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Well, how are the people that we have, how are we going to skill them in meaningful
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ways for the future in order to enable those outcomes?
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So there's this huge people and skills aspect of it.
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There's also the software and hardware, the technology capabilities,
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but then there's the manifest forms of that, like the cloud capabilities and
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where does that play into it?
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What's the best way to achieve a particular tech outcome or technology strategy
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that we're moving toward?
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And data is this critical foundation, right?
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I think of like, I think of it along the lines of people, process, technology, and data.
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I think those are those are aspects that i
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think are core tenets to the things that i think about on
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a daily basis and in every case of those it's
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like how do we enable each of those key pillars
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if you will to to achieve those outcomes that we're seeking and you know data
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you know gets it i'll just spend a little bit of time on that one because i
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think people in that have been around technology for decades have talked about
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people process technology people process technology but data is that that.
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Recognition that as a key enabler and differentiator for organizations,
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but many organizations have it, but is it in a usable form?
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Is it of quality?
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Are we monitoring for bias and detecting for bias?
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And what are those kinds of safeguards and frameworks that we put in place to
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really leverage those capabilities to their maximum extent?
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And it's not for the faint of heart. I think a lot of organizations set out
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with really good intent and find that it's really difficult.
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And that's because it is.
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But it's still worth doing. And I think the organizations that really get good
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synthesized, kind of really how they're approaching those particular things,
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such as data and data quality,
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are going to be very successful. They're going to realize the most success. Yeah.
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Well, I love talking about data as well to quickly deep dive a little bit into that.
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How do you deal with, let's say,
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breaking down data silos or kind of these things where maybe your HR or project
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management billing data might be living in one system,
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And then some of your more customer facing market forecast data is living somewhere else.
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And, you know, how do you work cross functionally to kind of bring it all together
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and make sure there's quality around how you can glean insights from those different data sources?
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I mean, it's, you know, that's a profound challenge across all organizations.
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And I appreciate the question because it's absolutely a real one that I've seen throughout my career.
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You know, I think the first part of it is just recognizing where data exists, right?
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And start creating, you know, a proper catalog of what is the data that we possess?
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What is the data of record? You know, what are the systems of record?
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In terms of our gold copy or,
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you know, of data and then getting common definitions around that so that it
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can be well understood and then well understood who are the owners of that data
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and who are the stewards of that data and instituting a governance framework around that.
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And that doesn't mean a heavy handed, you know, it sounds heavy, just saying it.
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In some instances, it does need to be a little more disciplined than others,
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depending on the sensitivity and criticality of the data.
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And I think it's really about putting the structures, processes and foundations
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in place to enable the organization in a meaningful way.
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And, you know, that takes effort and it's particularly difficult time.
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It's kind of that, what I, you know, Clayton Christensen's innovators dilemma
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if you've ever read that book, it's fantastic.
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And it feels like that's kind of the situation that we're experiencing in the
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industry right now is because we have a tremendous amount of work.
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And so the organizations are trying to deliver on that work,
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but we're also trying to, you know, position ourselves for the future at the same time.
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And so it's that constant tension of making sure that we get the work done so
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that we can meet the expectations and delight our clients, but then also prepare
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ourselves for the future.
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I mean, creating data foundations in which we can create more value and better
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outcomes for our clients over time.
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So it's, you know, and that's part of the technology strategy,
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to go back to your earlier question, is really thinking about what is that kind
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of strategic roadmap that we're trying to get at?
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What are those waypoints along the way that get us towards that aspirational vision that we have?
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In many instances, you know, the technologies that we choose,
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we have to think about what is
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the value in the near term and what is the value in the long term? Sure.
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And it's not just simple. It's not a simple equation of saying,
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hey, I'm just going to choose the long term value because I've seen it in my
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career a number of times,
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even in financial services and other places that if the if the tangible value
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to the organization is too far out, like the thing just kind of falls apart
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and implodes under its own weight because the organization is like,
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hey, you know, I've been waiting for value and I haven't seen any.
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I'm going to go do something that, you know, we're going to go put our investments
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where we can get something that helps sooner and later.
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So I think that's really part of the critical thinking that goes into that strategic
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technology plan is how to deliver value in the near term.
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But how does that then leapfrog you or springboard you into the long-term value
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that you're shooting for?
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Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I definitely am going to ask a bit more about
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the strategic roadmap, but I wanted to circle back to one other item that you
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talked about, you know, when thinking about a technology strategy and you bring up...
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The skill sets or need
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for new skills or training of employees
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how do you work or would someone work cross-functionally is it like being aligned
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with like a chief people officer or h you know like to get that sort of frankly
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training or identifying training and you know working so that folks
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don't feel like they're just being told
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they have to learn this new system for the sake of learning the
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new system but really right like how many
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times has a new software been told you know start keeping all your notes in
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this system or that and it just dies on the vine you really want to get that
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buy-in how does that kind of work you know behind the scenes yeah at hdr there
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we do I do have a chief talent development officer.
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And so it's working very collaboratively with that person and that organization,
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as well as cross-functionally across the organization.
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You know, simply doing it in a silo to the point of your question,
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like if you just kind of demand something from on high, you get people,
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you don't get the level of engagement that you're seeking.
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So there has to be value in it for all involved.
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And it really has to be a collaborative process throughout the organization.
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One that's top of mind that I think of a lot about a lot right now is data.
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Back to data is really kind of that data scientist, data fluency,
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data analytics, kind of understanding and abilities. Like, we're not going to
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be able to just go hire hundreds and hundreds of data scientists.
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Like, it's just – that's not feasible. It's not practical.
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What we do need to do is infuse data science skill sets throughout our organization.
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And so that's something that we think about as just one example that we're creating –.
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Um courses and and and
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knowledge articles and really
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assets for our people to to leverage
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in order to you know one i think many many of the folks in our organization
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are hungry to go try and leverage these sort of techniques and technologies
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in in interesting ways and we want to be able to help them do that and so it's
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really about that kind of symbiotic flywheel type of relationship about,
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you know, offering the capabilities that people want that are also in alignment
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with organizations' needs and desires.
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Yeah. And I will say, having played around with some of the LLMs,
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GPTs, those, depending on what you're working with, they're almost like a data
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science assistant in the box and, you know, can definitely see how leveraging,
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you know, A skilled worker with the assistance of technology can produce 5x,
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10x, or new work that they couldn't have done before.
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So, you know, thinking about the ACEC membership, we have wonderful firms like
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HDR who have many thousands of employees.
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And then we have some pretty small firms. Some might just be sole proprietorships,
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two to five people. If you're one of these smaller firms, how should you think
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about a technology strategy?
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Going back to your talk about having a strategic roadmap, does every firm need a technology strategy?
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Strategy you know what kind of are
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maybe some basics or ways to start so
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that you don't get ahead of yourself or waste
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your time resources buying products you don't need spending time trying to do
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something that isn't in your wheelhouse and skill set what kind of advice would
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you have for you know a firm that really just doesn't have all the resources available to Yeah,
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I think it's, I think it's important to just characterize,
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you know, technology strategy sounds heavy, right?
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Just by saying it. And it needs to be fit for purpose for the organization.
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I think, you know.
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It depends on the situation, but every organization should have what I would
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say is a North Star, right?
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And that North Star is a guiding light to say, hey, we have aspirations of something
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from a business perspective.
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Technology is a key enabler to achieve those objectives.
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So there needs to be some thought about how to leverage technology in a meaningful
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way to get the organization from where it is to where you want it to be, right?
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Right. That's and so from the from a technology strategy perspective,
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it can simply be that like, how do we how are we going to leverage technology
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in order to achieve our strategic aims as an organization and over what time horizon?
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And so the the the more near term needs to have a bit more detail than the things that are further out,
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obviously are a little bit fuzzier because our business context environment
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will change over time and we have to be able to be adaptable over that time.
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So it's never a set it and forget it kind of thing.
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We're constantly thinking about it over time. What do we need to adjust?
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What needs to be adapted as things happen? And that's okay.
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And so as I think about smaller firms and just firms of different sizes and
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different sets of business services and whatnot,
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you just need to think about technology as a key enabler and how that allows
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or will provide a means for the organization to achieve its aspirations.
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And how does that align over time? And then we start thinking about,
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you know, you can't just simply say, well, we want to do X.
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There has to be that next level thought of how. How do we enable?
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If it's a smaller firm, it may be yourself. You may think, oh,
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how am I going to acquire the skill sets that I need in order to be able to
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leverage a particular technology?
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Opens some doors for us as an organization. Great. Well, Justin,
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I really appreciate you being here and joining us today.
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I'm going to ask one question, one final question.
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It's a little two-parted to get the most bang for my buck, but what do you think
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is, say, a top risk that firms would face going on a digital transformation journey?
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And then what's a top opportunity you know, to end on a positive note.
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Yeah. Well, I mean, the risk from a risk perspective, a top risk is wasted investment.
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I think that's a that's a very real possibility.
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There's a lot of different dead end roads to go down, I think, is is a possibility.
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And also there can also be cybersecurity vulnerability and risk as opposed to,
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you know, by by implementing new technologies and perhaps leaving a door unguarded,
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so to speak, just to use an analogy.
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And so, yeah, there are some risks out there for certain.
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But I also think that it is, again, back to my, what I've said a number of times
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is technology is a key enabler.
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And I think it's not something that can be ignored.
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I think not only from an efficiency standpoint, but also from a capability standpoint.
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So, you know, some of the things that I think about in terms of the application
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of new technologies is we also have to have a balance of thinking about things
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that are efficiency plays versus things that are new capability plays,
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meaning things that enable us to deliver better, maybe better services or better
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deliverables to our clients. You can't focus on just one.
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It's easy to kind of think about efficiency right now because there's so much work to be done.
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But if we solely focus on efficiency,
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we're effectively kind of just commoditizing the work that we do instead of
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we need to become more efficient, but we also have to create more valuable deliverables
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and outcomes for our clients at the same time.
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So we have to to think about it in both respects. And I think that's really important.
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And companies that don't think about technology are in position to be disrupted.
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Those that are thinking about leveraging technologies in creative ways,
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and it doesn't just have to be the most expensive technologies,
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but leveraging technologies in creative ways are those poised to be disruptors and reap the benefits.
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Great. Well, Justin, thank you so much for joining us. And thanks,
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everyone, for listening.
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Please stay tuned as we'll have more interviews with experts like Justin and
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other member firms talking about digital transformation throughout the year. So thanks.
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Music.
