When Libraries Break: Leadership, Redundancy & Resilience

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Welcome to Engaging and Empowering School Libraries podcast.
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This podcast is dedicated to raising the profile of school libraries by exploring
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topics that are shaping education teaching today.
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Whether it's innovative learning strategies, the role of technology,
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or collaboration between teachers and librarians, we're here to spark conversations
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and share ideas that make a difference.
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Now, let's dive in to today's episode.
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So welcome back to Engaging and Empowering School Libraries podcast.
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In our last episode we spoke to Helen Rimmer about well-being and kindness,
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two qualities that are vital in every aspect of school life,
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but especially when things get tough.
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Today we're talking, taking that conversation a step further,
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exploring what happens when school library management goes wrong,
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what we can learn from it.
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Poor leadership, lack of understanding and redundancy can all take a huge toll,
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both personally and professionally, but they can also spark reflection, resilience and change.
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I'm joined by two guests who've had very different experiences this evening,
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Lara Price and Rachel Huskisson.
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Together, we'll be talking openly about what happened, what helped,
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and how we can build stronger, kinder, and more effective school library cultures
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for the future. So let's get started.
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Welcome to you both, and thanks for joining me tonight.
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Can we start with a bit of an introduction from you both?
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What are you currently doing? So can I jump and start with Lara,
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please? Hi Elizabeth and thank you for inviting me.
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It's lovely to be on your podcast and I will add this is my first podcast ever.
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So very exciting. I'd like to be your first.
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So I am in a really exciting moment of my life in change.
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So I'm 56 and I
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have been employed the entire my
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entire working life and I have never not been
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physically in a building in a
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school or a public library always employed
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um and so this point in
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my life after redundancy last year is rather
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than fall apart I actually look at it as one of
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the best things that's ever happened to me and part
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of that is down to health I got hit
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with quite severe mobility issues
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in the past year and I've had to rethink everything and so that's why I started
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to look at what was available online and I have been exploring the online education
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world I have been exploring the online world of workshopping,
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of tutoring, of all the different sort of online schools, all the different
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experience you can have from my own personal 30, 40 years of being a librarian.
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Being a boarding house mistress and being a classics teacher.
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What was out there? What could I bring to an online environment?
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It's been exciting. I've designed and built a website.
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I've designed workshops, which I now have an agency interested.
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So I'm looking to launch workshopping on critical thinking and brainstorming
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for corporate, for businesses in January.
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I've got an online, a very small online school where I'm going to be cover teaching
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as well, which we're in the process of sort of doing references and safeguarding at the moment.
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So I would say year on, it's very exciting and it's very different, but I just went with it.
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Wow, it sounds like it's an amazing leap forward, which is fantastic that you're
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there where you are. Brilliant. Okay, thanks very much Lara.
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And Rachel, what are you currently doing?
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So I am the library manager at a quite large FE college.
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In the midlands and i've been
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in that job for about 14-15 months
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we've got four sites and i
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have managed 10 members of staff okay
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so a bit of a
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transition as well for you yeah yeah
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so how many years as a school librarian
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were you so my background is probably
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about 10 years in school libraries up until that 14
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months ago when I made that transition whilst studying
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for a distance learning master's degree
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at Sheffield in library management so it's
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been pretty full on but yeah it's it's all
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part of the journey which you're probably going to hear about exactly
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exactly so what's really exciting for me is
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that is that both of you have had
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huge things happen within work
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and actually there's there is a positive outcome so I hope that
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that's where our podcast is going to end up full of
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full of joy and how wonderful this new transition is but but we do need to go
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back to what your roles were when you began to have problems and how management
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decisions affected your school library at the time I'm going to start with Rachel
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if that's all right can I bring you back in.
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So I had two roles within school libraries. My first role was as a library assistant
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in a large comprehensive school.
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It started off very well, a really
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nice little team. There was the library manager, myself and my job share.
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And we all got on really well and had a great time working together for about three years.
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And gradually over those three years, things started to decline a little bit.
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The budget was getting slashed, things like that.
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The library space was being squeezed and a
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lot more pressure being put on what it was used for and I
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think the library manager just could see where
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it was going and she was approaching retirement so
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just decided to retire early leaving myself
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and the other assistant kind of there to
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see what would happen and she was really concerned for
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us but she's like I've got to go the result
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was they didn't replaced so we were in the middle of a merger
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with another school so multi-academy trust
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so we it sort of fell between
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I think that the school was waiting for the
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merger to happen before they wanted to make any decisions around replacing
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the manager but no communication so cutting.
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A long story short there both me and the
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other assistant handed our notice in at the same time two
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weeks before COVID hit and so suddenly I
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didn't have a job to go to I was just like I need to just get
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away from this so over lockdown
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I explored other options and moved into another
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school thankfully a job came up and it
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was it was a promotion for me it was running a small library in an independent
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school so very different environment and different again the first couple of
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years were really good and then things became not so good and it's different
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problems, but yeah, it was...
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I don't know how much to go into I'll leave it there for now but
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yeah yeah okay so so it's it's interesting that you say at the beginning it's
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good and I think I think in most new jobs you don't know you know you're beginning
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to settle it and then work out it's it is all exciting isn't it but it's that
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presumably it's when you begin to push begin to want to do a bit more or.
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It that's probably when the problems start where your idea of what it is that
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you want to do and And their idea, there being management, are at loggerheads.
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Was that your experience, Laura? Yeah, so I'm slightly different.
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I've had 25 years working in schools, mostly, if not hired as a school,
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most of the start of it was a school librarian.
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Then I became a housemistress, but normally had some input in the school library,
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but not necessarily as running it.
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I've designed them, I've built them, I've done all sorts with them.
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And I even went up to head of
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boarding stage within my house mistressing side
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so I sort of moved out of libraries and
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then my health took a big dive and
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I started I had to come out of boarding and
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I also due to a clash management clash
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in my school before this I felt I
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needed to leave that school
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where I was ahead of boarding and I got I
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think I just got dented really is the
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honest thing I'd had major life-threatening
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surgery and although everything was
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so successful the management style was
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very harsh and it
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didn't suit my personality so I
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left and I stepped right
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back and then in my last school I actually
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ended up I think moving away I came out
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of boarding completely and then I moved back
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into library and I also came out of
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teaching so I became their full-time librarian but
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I was in a very small school that had not had what I would think of as modern
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school librarian skill sets so they were almost 50 years behind so they were.
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Used to a librarian who might sit and.
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They thought a librarian just kind of shelved a few books and helped girls find a story to read.
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And they didn't understand all the other things a librarian could offer.
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But in their timetabling, there was no lesson times in there.
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And I was pushing for that.
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I mean, I got put on the academic panel.
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I got my line manager as the deputy head. Luckily, my experience meant I knew what I needed to do.
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But as opposed to 25 or 20 years earlier, my energy was not there.
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And I really feel school librarianship is a battleground.
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And you have to have the energy and the health to fight that.
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And sometimes we're not in that position. I
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have the knowledge I had the skills I did
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not have the energy and the fight that you
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really need to to take it
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so despite me go there was
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also a big change in there was a new head
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there was a new deputy head there was in
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you know the whole structure was changing there
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was covid brexit all sorts
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of financial crutches on small schools so
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I think I was still incredibly
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shocked when I was called in
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for a meeting which I
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thought was to discuss my hours for the following year and
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was actually then making me redundant so you
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didn't see that coming at all then because I was
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on a really low salary because I
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agreed to go term time only so I
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was only paid term time only and I
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figured I was doing an awful lot of other things
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I was running the student council I was when
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children were sent out of classes they were coming to the library
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I was running I was trying to do
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outreach with departments who loved what I did and they were going forward saying.
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I was involved in the staff teaching and learning sort of developing CPD for
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staff so I was doing everything I ran a staff book club I was doing everything
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you should do I just didn't have any direct.
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Teaching but then teachers were letting me come into
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their classes and teach as it were study skills
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research skills I created a
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whole online library during COVID which
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they'd never had so I thought I'm on
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a really low salary compared to
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everyone else in the school and to be honest it tiny amount of their budget
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and I thought I still feel I offered way more value for money so yeah it was
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a shock it was a total total out of the blue and you don't get warning I mean,
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they're doing a couple of redundancies in the prep
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school but there was
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mentioning that it might be happening but I was in the I suppose they started
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with the prep school I was in the first round for the secondary school and there
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were there were half a dozen of us and if you What really surprises me,
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or sadly maybe it doesn't surprise me, is the fact that your story is not unusual.
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Your story about low salary, doing more than you're expected to do.
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Jumping in, but then being hit with redundancy just seems like a blow too far.
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Rachel, does any of this, I know you didn't suffer from redundancy,
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but does any of this ring true to you?
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Yeah, it sounds really similar to what I was doing in the role that I moved into.
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So I was presented with a job description, which I hadn't seen prior to my interview.
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Anyway, and that was basically the person I replaced had retired.
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She'd been in school for a really long time. It was her job description with
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some extra things added on the end.
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And so I just got stuck in, in my lower pay because I wasn't qualified,
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term time only contract and was doing all those things, trying to,
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again, although I hadn't had the experience that Laura describes,
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I knew from my, what my boss previously had been doing, I knew what the role entailed.
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And and I'd said to the school you know I'm not qualified and and they were
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like well if you need any training let us know so I thought well for me that's
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quite good because I can hopefully get some,
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more experience because I knew that there were these gaps and I felt like a
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total imposter but I also knew that I wanted the challenge to do it so I did
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feel like there might be some opportunities for CPD that I'd not had in my previous school.
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But yeah, I just basically did everything in there or tried to,
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but I didn't have the position that I needed to be able to really advocate for the role.
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So I wasn't head of department. I was...
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Within the support staff kind of
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system and in that particular school there was quite a big
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hierarchy between support staff and teaching staff and the teachers were lovely
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but I just wasn't in the right places to be able to do what I needed or wanted
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to do really and my line managers changed all the time that was another issue so.
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You know, hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it? And do you think it was your
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own lack of knowledge or do you think that it was a lack of understanding of
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senior management or both possibly that caused the problem?
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But is there something you would do differently going into a role like that
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now, having the knowledge that you've got?
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I think now yeah definitely i was
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a little bit naive i i laura
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mentioned about feeling dented going into the role and i'd had my confidence
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not a lot in my previous role been quite badly treated sort of and just made
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to feel not very valued so i was going into this new one.
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Not having the confidence really to speak
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up for myself and I know I should have
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asked for head of department within in that interview
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process because of the position of it and asked for
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the job description like I don't know what you
00:18:11.518 --> 00:18:14.318
know it was COVID it was a weird time I just
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went in and had a chat and ended up with a job and
00:18:17.558 --> 00:18:23.178
then yeah but I met the person who I was replacing on my first day she went
00:18:23.178 --> 00:18:28.598
into it was an inset day she was doing the refreshments and she came up to me
00:18:28.598 --> 00:18:33.958
and she said she she she was obviously well she was quite cheesed off with the
00:18:33.958 --> 00:18:36.358
way it ended for her and and.
00:18:37.202 --> 00:18:47.102
Basically said just get your qualifications but yeah yeah with hindsight I think
00:18:47.102 --> 00:18:53.262
I would have asked for a lot more you know as far as the position yeah Lara can I bring you back in.
00:18:54.262 --> 00:18:57.602
Yes so what I would say is I don't
00:18:57.602 --> 00:19:00.442
think that makes any difference I was a head
00:19:00.442 --> 00:19:03.322
of department I knew exactly what to ask for
00:19:03.322 --> 00:19:06.262
when I went into this job I was a head of department I
00:19:06.262 --> 00:19:09.782
wrote my own job description I I
00:19:09.782 --> 00:19:13.202
was on the in the academic group
00:19:13.202 --> 00:19:16.762
heads of department I was a head you know I was a head of department I
00:19:16.762 --> 00:19:19.702
was like I worked although I
00:19:19.702 --> 00:19:22.522
was support staff I was also counted as teaching staff so
00:19:22.522 --> 00:19:25.922
I sort of was sort of considered both it helped
00:19:25.922 --> 00:19:28.922
teaching some classics because it meant I was
00:19:28.922 --> 00:19:32.602
working alongside but it doesn't
00:19:32.602 --> 00:19:40.342
help if a school isn't going to see the value a librarian can bring it doesn't
00:19:40.342 --> 00:19:44.802
matter in a way like they would have treated you the same if you were a head
00:19:44.802 --> 00:19:48.962
of department so don't beat yourself up over that because trust me.
00:19:50.142 --> 00:19:57.402
What I suspect well I know I was on SLT for a while so I understand and I know
00:19:57.402 --> 00:19:59.162
what they're thinking and,
00:19:59.933 --> 00:20:06.613
A lot of the time, you have to remember that schools are run not by managers,
00:20:06.613 --> 00:20:10.953
but they're run by teachers who have become heads of departments.
00:20:11.173 --> 00:20:14.433
Then they become deputy heads. Then they become head teachers.
00:20:14.753 --> 00:20:19.373
They don't necessarily have the management training. They're not from a management background.
00:20:19.373 --> 00:20:23.173
And in my personal
00:20:23.173 --> 00:20:26.553
experience teachers are focused on
00:20:26.553 --> 00:20:29.613
what the teachers bring and they feel that is the
00:20:29.613 --> 00:20:33.033
most important and their only consideration and
00:20:33.033 --> 00:20:35.713
they don't necessarily see the whole picture of
00:20:35.713 --> 00:20:38.893
a school the whole picture of the education of
00:20:38.893 --> 00:20:42.533
the child and i i
00:20:42.533 --> 00:20:45.393
have no idea how we respond to that
00:20:45.393 --> 00:20:48.453
but I was initially shocked
00:20:48.453 --> 00:20:52.153
but I was also reminded of a
00:20:52.153 --> 00:20:55.193
headmaster who I admire very much telling me way
00:20:55.193 --> 00:20:58.153
back in my early career saying you know
00:20:58.153 --> 00:21:01.773
no job is ever safe for anybody in
00:21:01.773 --> 00:21:05.533
a school because if financial crunches happen decisions
00:21:05.533 --> 00:21:08.573
get made or if for whatever reason
00:21:08.573 --> 00:21:12.773
a head teacher date against you you will be gone it's
00:21:12.773 --> 00:21:16.473
you know it they're small fiefdom
00:21:16.473 --> 00:21:19.813
schools and it's a very different
00:21:19.813 --> 00:21:22.653
beast well it's interesting though isn't
00:21:22.653 --> 00:21:29.213
it lara that that actually if we are if we're considering that you know that's
00:21:29.213 --> 00:21:33.533
quite a that's quite a tough pill to swallow i think is the fact that is the
00:21:33.533 --> 00:21:37.033
fact that even you know even if you're doing the best that you're ever going
00:21:37.033 --> 00:21:40.033
to be or ever do. I wonder if...
00:21:41.235 --> 00:21:46.995
There is something that could be held onto, could be challenged,
00:21:47.335 --> 00:21:51.275
could be supported because we know this.
00:21:51.555 --> 00:21:57.535
So we can't protect people's jobs, we can protect how people are treated.
00:21:57.815 --> 00:22:01.375
We can possibly protect people in a way that.
00:22:02.436 --> 00:22:07.116
That we help management understand the value of a library.
00:22:07.356 --> 00:22:13.356
Do you think the leadership culture in the school shaped how the library was
00:22:13.356 --> 00:22:14.916
valued in your instance?
00:22:15.256 --> 00:22:19.416
I think it shapes the value in every school library I've worked in.
00:22:19.596 --> 00:22:23.996
And I've worked in some very successful school libraries where I've been now
00:22:23.996 --> 00:22:27.636
managed by the head because they're that important.
00:22:27.636 --> 00:22:33.256
And I've been managed by a head of English, a head of history in my mom's school
00:22:33.256 --> 00:22:36.296
because they were like, I'm like, that is so random.
00:22:36.676 --> 00:22:43.816
But it can make a difference. But what I would say is the future is where it's really exciting.
00:22:44.396 --> 00:22:48.296
With new curriculum changes, with the
00:22:48.296 --> 00:22:51.856
way that it's coming away from necessarily the
00:22:51.856 --> 00:22:55.716
old academia or more into the learning
00:22:55.716 --> 00:22:59.376
which school librarian brings the whole child
00:22:59.376 --> 00:23:02.096
that's the exciting part so I would
00:23:02.096 --> 00:23:05.396
say the history of school libraries I
00:23:05.396 --> 00:23:09.296
don't think we've ever marketed ourselves or
00:23:09.296 --> 00:23:12.376
we've never managed to get through and
00:23:12.376 --> 00:23:15.336
in a way what I would love is every teacher training
00:23:15.336 --> 00:23:18.976
course to have a school librarian module
00:23:18.976 --> 00:23:22.196
to say this is what they can do and
00:23:22.196 --> 00:23:25.136
bring to your teaching to
00:23:25.136 --> 00:23:28.916
your classroom to your children on the
00:23:28.916 --> 00:23:32.536
headmasters and mistresses conference at the
00:23:32.536 --> 00:23:37.896
you know every single part I know a lot of head teachers do a modification as
00:23:37.896 --> 00:23:43.636
well part of that there should be a module that is explaining exactly where
00:23:43.636 --> 00:23:50.796
they can take a school librarian yeah and utilize it so I'm all about like I feel.
00:23:51.516 --> 00:23:56.036
That's where it needs to go and what
00:23:56.036 --> 00:24:01.356
needs to happen is a gathering of pedagogy because that's what teachers are
00:24:01.356 --> 00:24:05.376
obsessed with and that's where and i've screamed till i'm blue in my face where
00:24:05.376 --> 00:24:11.536
i've been told by so many teachers that but we're qualified and i'm like and i'm qualified,
00:24:12.496 --> 00:24:15.856
i have a degree too i'm qualified
00:24:15.856 --> 00:24:18.916
i've done cpd training so you
00:24:18.916 --> 00:24:22.456
get very much a kind of an
00:24:22.456 --> 00:24:25.336
old-fashioned overview in schools in a lot of schools
00:24:25.336 --> 00:24:30.076
where teachers are on the hierarchy as rachel was talking about the hierarchy
00:24:30.076 --> 00:24:36.496
and support staff aren't but you're going in the current world that we're moving
00:24:36.496 --> 00:24:42.776
into i think that is going to change massively i hope so I'm with you there though,
00:24:42.876 --> 00:24:50.076
Laura I really am I think it is exciting times but let's go back just one step
00:24:50.076 --> 00:24:52.456
when it was hard when it was really,
00:24:52.556 --> 00:24:59.336
really hard what helped you let's go with Rachel what helped you keep your confidence
00:24:59.336 --> 00:25:04.136
and professionalism intact during the times that were really challenging?
00:25:05.176 --> 00:25:13.896
I think one thing I did really early on because I knew what gaps I had in my skills and knowledge.
00:25:14.336 --> 00:25:20.156
I reached out very early on to try to build up a network of support.
00:25:20.376 --> 00:25:24.756
So through the SLA, I got a mentor.
00:25:25.076 --> 00:25:28.196
She advised me to join CILIP.
00:25:28.768 --> 00:25:33.628
Which I did. And she said, you know, if you're wanting to take your career further.
00:25:34.488 --> 00:25:36.848
Charge ships a route you could consider.
00:25:37.068 --> 00:25:41.608
And at first I was like, oh, that sounds quite hard. But I realized after I'd
00:25:41.608 --> 00:25:47.068
spent a year of like looking for stuff to learn because, you know,
00:25:47.148 --> 00:25:51.828
that was free usually to kind of help me learn more about information literacy and things.
00:25:52.048 --> 00:25:55.648
I thought, well, I'm doing it anyway. I might as well do this.
00:25:55.648 --> 00:25:59.068
Chartership thing and make it actually official
00:25:59.068 --> 00:26:03.088
so that really helped me see school
00:26:03.088 --> 00:26:06.268
libraries in the context of the wider sector because
00:26:06.268 --> 00:26:09.328
you have to do that as part of the portfolio and just
00:26:09.328 --> 00:26:12.428
learning more about libraries generally really opened my eyes
00:26:12.428 --> 00:26:17.388
I think joining your membership Elizabeth obviously
00:26:17.388 --> 00:26:21.448
was another big part of that kind of building work filling
00:26:21.448 --> 00:26:25.288
in those gaps that I identified and
00:26:25.288 --> 00:26:28.488
also having a couple of really good confidants within
00:26:28.488 --> 00:26:31.908
school and outside of school that I could just offload
00:26:31.908 --> 00:26:35.308
to who I knew I could trust and and
00:26:35.308 --> 00:26:38.428
also a friend who worked in HR again she really
00:26:38.428 --> 00:26:41.328
helped me completely separate to the school see it
00:26:41.328 --> 00:26:44.348
from senior leaders point of view from other people's
00:26:44.348 --> 00:26:47.468
point of view to give me like a bigger picture and and help
00:26:47.468 --> 00:26:50.528
me put things into perspective a little bit and realize that
00:26:50.528 --> 00:26:53.408
it wasn't necessarily personal what was happening it was
00:26:53.408 --> 00:26:56.408
just that's what happens because
00:26:56.408 --> 00:26:59.668
of this system we sit in and these misunderstandings that
00:26:59.668 --> 00:27:02.688
laura talked about you know that the fact
00:27:02.688 --> 00:27:06.488
that the teachers don't have management training where
00:27:06.488 --> 00:27:12.728
i am now seeing it from that other side it's so important when you're managing
00:27:12.728 --> 00:27:18.348
people to understand how to do that and some of my line managers i felt didn't
00:27:18.348 --> 00:27:23.728
know how to do that but yeah they were the things I think that helped me the most.
00:27:25.088 --> 00:27:31.768
Yeah. And if you could go back, would you have done anything differently?
00:27:32.765 --> 00:27:37.705
Could the leadership have done anything differently to create a healthier library culture?
00:27:39.185 --> 00:27:44.645
I don't think anything would have been different. I think I made the most out
00:27:44.645 --> 00:27:45.925
of the opportunities I had.
00:27:46.285 --> 00:27:49.545
I perhaps didn't advocate as much as I could have done.
00:27:50.045 --> 00:27:52.245
But again, talking about that
00:27:52.245 --> 00:27:58.585
energy, having the energy to fight for what you want or think is needed.
00:27:59.605 --> 00:28:02.485
After you've had a couple of knockbacks from that you think
00:28:02.485 --> 00:28:05.945
not getting anywhere with this I remember Elizabeth
00:28:05.945 --> 00:28:08.845
you giving me some advice about just finding one person to
00:28:08.845 --> 00:28:12.305
work with like one teacher who really understands or
00:28:12.305 --> 00:28:15.185
is like an ally so I would
00:28:15.185 --> 00:28:17.925
do that and just focus on the things I could make an
00:28:17.925 --> 00:28:22.185
impact in I really helped develop the library team the student volunteers were
00:28:22.185 --> 00:28:28.105
amazing and in a way that gave me like the management skills that just I managed
00:28:28.105 --> 00:28:33.145
them as if they were my team and you know really invested in them and that was
00:28:33.145 --> 00:28:37.825
very rewarding so yeah I found the positives within it even when it was.
00:28:39.166 --> 00:28:44.206
Yeah, it is hard when you're being knocked, isn't it? Lara, would you have done
00:28:44.206 --> 00:28:46.766
anything differently if you could come back?
00:28:48.046 --> 00:28:52.566
I don't know that I could because I was pushing about as hard.
00:28:52.706 --> 00:28:56.106
And I think the other thing to stress, as you learnt, Rachel,
00:28:56.266 --> 00:28:57.946
is that it's not personal.
00:28:58.986 --> 00:29:04.126
And although the shock of that first initial shock of the redundancy,
00:29:04.126 --> 00:29:07.586
the school was very very good
00:29:07.586 --> 00:29:10.366
at trying to let me know that this
00:29:10.366 --> 00:29:13.626
was not a personal decision this was very much a financial
00:29:13.626 --> 00:29:17.286
decision that they had to make and
00:29:17.286 --> 00:29:20.086
they appreciated the work
00:29:20.086 --> 00:29:23.386
I was doing whether if I had managed
00:29:23.386 --> 00:29:26.286
to have that you always go like well maybe if I had done
00:29:26.286 --> 00:29:29.266
the library lessons maybe if they they could see
00:29:29.266 --> 00:29:32.366
me as part their curriculum that would
00:29:32.366 --> 00:29:40.966
be different but it was I kind of made my own choices and to be honest looking
00:29:40.966 --> 00:29:49.286
back now I'm so pleased at where I currently am that I have no regrets it was a,
00:29:49.986 --> 00:29:54.666
It was a journey. Life is a journey. All of my jobs were a journey,
00:29:55.066 --> 00:29:57.806
you know, and that had been good and bad.
00:29:58.046 --> 00:30:04.066
I mean, the interesting thing is part of my boarding experience is I did a qualification
00:30:04.066 --> 00:30:08.126
with boarding school association in Roe Hampton, which was a two year qualification.
00:30:08.866 --> 00:30:13.766
One year was about pastoral care, but the second year was about managing staff.
00:30:15.426 --> 00:30:19.546
And it was because it was so important that you run when you run a boarding
00:30:19.546 --> 00:30:26.946
house that you have staff i've always wondered why they didn't take that at
00:30:26.946 --> 00:30:32.346
roehampton and put it into a teaching one maybe if you were looking to get promoted
00:30:32.346 --> 00:30:34.166
up to head of department status.
00:30:35.126 --> 00:30:37.866
Maybe that was something that could be done because it was a
00:30:37.866 --> 00:30:41.006
really good management course they went
00:30:41.006 --> 00:30:44.286
through all different styles and you
00:30:44.286 --> 00:30:48.406
you know it was it was a university you
00:30:48.406 --> 00:30:52.166
had to write an essay you had to do a report you had to do research it
00:30:52.166 --> 00:30:55.006
was a really really interesting year that year
00:30:55.006 --> 00:30:58.386
learning about it which is really tough
00:30:58.386 --> 00:31:02.786
then every time I was faced with the interesting management
00:31:02.786 --> 00:31:05.686
styles in the past you kind of
00:31:05.686 --> 00:31:08.926
flag up and go okay so
00:31:08.926 --> 00:31:11.706
I've done the course this is exactly what they say not to
00:31:11.706 --> 00:31:16.126
do very hard
00:31:16.126 --> 00:31:20.026
very hard so no some
00:31:20.026 --> 00:31:23.986
people might be listening at this point where they
00:31:23.986 --> 00:31:26.786
are exhausted they are at this
00:31:26.786 --> 00:31:30.046
point where they've tried everything they're still
00:31:30.046 --> 00:31:35.546
trying and and you've both mentioned that you have to have that resilience don't
00:31:35.546 --> 00:31:41.946
need to keep on going what practical advice would you give librarians who are
00:31:41.946 --> 00:31:46.066
struggling under poor management or feel that their jobs may be at risk currently
00:31:46.066 --> 00:31:47.886
let's go with rachel first.
00:31:48.942 --> 00:31:57.182
I think for me, there was a point where I just accepted that I couldn't do any more.
00:31:57.382 --> 00:32:04.162
Like I'd come to a point where I tried all the things that I thought were going
00:32:04.162 --> 00:32:06.902
to help me progress within the role.
00:32:08.422 --> 00:32:12.622
And it was a pretty low point where I realized that. And I thought,
00:32:13.742 --> 00:32:17.782
again, with a bit of hindsight, I think I just sort of outgrew it because there
00:32:17.782 --> 00:32:20.082
wasn't room to do what I wanted to do.
00:32:20.682 --> 00:32:25.322
But with that acceptance, it came at a weird time because some,
00:32:25.322 --> 00:32:27.442
you know, some difficult things had happened.
00:32:27.722 --> 00:32:30.662
It was the end of term. Everyone was very tired and frazzled.
00:32:31.942 --> 00:32:36.262
And I'd gone into work. I'd had to go in to do some extra days because I've
00:32:36.262 --> 00:32:38.182
been, I won't go into that.
00:32:38.182 --> 00:32:43.222
But anyway, I went in to do my extra days and I got an email from SILIP saying,
00:32:43.482 --> 00:32:48.842
you've been awarded, congratulations, you've been awarded this SILIP 125 medal.
00:32:49.062 --> 00:32:54.562
And I thought, this is so weird because in my job, I feel like I'm totally not
00:32:54.562 --> 00:33:00.722
valued. And then I'm being valued as my professional, you know, it was just a complete.
00:33:00.962 --> 00:33:04.842
But it was that moment when I thought, okay, this is the time when I'm going
00:33:04.842 --> 00:33:08.002
to have to rethink and pivot what I'm doing.
00:33:08.002 --> 00:33:13.102
I'd already done the scholarship, that's right, I'd just got that in the April,
00:33:13.422 --> 00:33:19.142
this was in the July and I'd loved doing the learning but I thought maybe this
00:33:19.142 --> 00:33:24.422
is time to go and do the qualification that I'd said I didn't think I'd wanted
00:33:24.422 --> 00:33:29.102
to do or had the capacity to do or could afford to do but I decided then I'd
00:33:29.102 --> 00:33:31.322
look into it and find a way to do it.
00:33:31.874 --> 00:33:35.074
Make that work so I started studying in
00:33:35.074 --> 00:33:37.994
that September and I had another year within the school while
00:33:37.994 --> 00:33:43.354
I was studying but my mind had shifted by then because I just thought this is
00:33:43.354 --> 00:33:49.534
my exit plan because there's no future for me here and that was a really tough
00:33:49.534 --> 00:33:55.694
year because I knew I was going to stay where I was I was going to work at this shift but.
00:33:56.354 --> 00:33:59.094
But things were getting gradually worse.
00:33:59.474 --> 00:34:05.414
Yeah, it was hard, but always knowing that I'd got this other route that I was taking.
00:34:05.774 --> 00:34:09.794
So in answer to your question, which I've slightly gone off on.
00:34:10.534 --> 00:34:17.634
It's knowing when to, when you, it's like that serenity prayer,
00:34:17.834 --> 00:34:19.274
isn't it? I can't remember how it goes.
00:34:19.414 --> 00:34:23.194
Something like having the wisdom to know. Do you know it?
00:34:23.634 --> 00:34:27.894
I do know. I do know. So grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot
00:34:27.894 --> 00:34:32.514
change and the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference.
00:34:33.014 --> 00:34:36.694
And it was that, like, what can I change? What can't I in that moment of wisdom?
00:34:37.434 --> 00:34:42.514
So, yeah. And I think what's really interesting is that in your journey,
00:34:42.594 --> 00:34:44.334
Rachel, you never stopped learning.
00:34:44.894 --> 00:34:57.794
No. I think if we as librarians lose that capacity to learn forever,
00:34:58.134 --> 00:35:03.494
then it sort of brings you to a stop, doesn't it?
00:35:03.614 --> 00:35:09.434
Because actually, you know, we're in a profession where we want our students
00:35:09.434 --> 00:35:15.394
to keep learning. We want them to be curious and be excited about what it is that they're doing.
00:35:15.594 --> 00:35:20.934
And actually, as adults and as librarians, that...
00:35:22.161 --> 00:35:25.041
Excitement of learning something and the joy
00:35:25.041 --> 00:35:27.861
of it is is hugely important and actually if we
00:35:27.861 --> 00:35:33.681
can't do it as you know we need to be demonstrating we need to be showing what
00:35:33.681 --> 00:35:39.061
it looks like and I can remember almost not not exactly the same but similar
00:35:39.061 --> 00:35:45.161
my love of learning suddenly got sparked like I wasn't very good at school but
00:35:45.161 --> 00:35:47.781
actually once I decided that librarianship was for me,
00:35:48.361 --> 00:35:52.021
it wasn't easy it's horrible you
00:35:52.021 --> 00:35:55.761
know trying to run a family go to work study
00:35:55.761 --> 00:36:02.861
when you got home horrible but the joy of getting an assignment in and getting
00:36:02.861 --> 00:36:07.341
it back and having done all right you know was such a was such a buzz that actually
00:36:07.341 --> 00:36:11.981
that's what we want to try and instill in our students i want to bring lara
00:36:11.981 --> 00:36:14.861
back in because your journey's been slightly different because.
00:36:16.220 --> 00:36:20.660
By the sounds of things, you've constantly been learning. You didn't just find
00:36:20.660 --> 00:36:24.060
it. It was part of your journey all the time. Is that right?
00:36:24.680 --> 00:36:28.120
Yeah. I'm a huge believer in lifelong learning.
00:36:28.520 --> 00:36:31.820
And to a certain extent, I think I went into school.
00:36:32.060 --> 00:36:38.000
I mean, when I took my librarianship degree, I specialized in children's librarianship.
00:36:38.160 --> 00:36:41.620
And I started my career in public libraries as a children's librarian.
00:36:42.040 --> 00:36:44.940
But you work with everyone in public libraries.
00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:47.880
But you focus in our children's and then I moved
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.640
into school libraries in 1999 and
00:36:52.640 --> 00:36:56.780
but for me it was always about
00:36:56.780 --> 00:37:01.000
knowledge is power lifelong learning
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.040
can give can make everybody equal it
00:37:05.040 --> 00:37:11.660
doesn't matter about entitlements or money or anything because there are public
00:37:11.660 --> 00:37:19.100
libraries that are open that It means every child and adult can learn and can
00:37:19.100 --> 00:37:22.700
make life better for themselves if they choose to.
00:37:23.140 --> 00:37:29.740
It was a huge frustration for me that in public libraries, people didn't realize that it was free.
00:37:32.184 --> 00:37:36.704
And I used to go around visiting lots of schools and talking to schoolchildren
00:37:36.704 --> 00:37:44.624
and explaining how a library could help them in their school life through the 90s and that it was free.
00:37:45.144 --> 00:37:48.664
They didn't have to pay anything and they never knew that.
00:37:49.644 --> 00:37:55.024
I don't think they do. And again, we're back to marketing of librarians.
00:37:55.464 --> 00:37:59.184
Librarians, we adore learning and yet we never learn.
00:37:59.184 --> 00:38:02.424
The sense of how to actually
00:38:02.424 --> 00:38:06.024
share that with everybody else so
00:38:06.024 --> 00:38:09.884
I think I always said like from
00:38:09.884 --> 00:38:15.124
the very beginning I viewed myself as a signpost that that's how I always viewed
00:38:15.124 --> 00:38:19.804
myself a signpost to help people get where they needed to be be they children
00:38:19.804 --> 00:38:25.244
or adults you're there to just help them on their journey of lifelong learning
00:38:25.244 --> 00:38:28.924
but to do that you have to be aware of
00:38:29.184 --> 00:38:33.344
Everything that's going on around you in the world of education,
00:38:33.364 --> 00:38:34.844
in the world of politics,
00:38:35.324 --> 00:38:39.384
in the world of literature, in the world of art, in the world of,
00:38:39.464 --> 00:38:40.684
you know, all these things.
00:38:40.884 --> 00:38:47.104
And you have to keep your brain moving in technology more than anything.
00:38:47.104 --> 00:38:54.264
As I said, I'm 56, I've gone from the very early stages of computerizing libraries,
00:38:54.624 --> 00:39:00.724
card catalogs to computers, right the way through to AI and chat to QTP.
00:39:02.744 --> 00:39:08.904
And it's like, okay, so you have to learn all of it all the time.
00:39:09.204 --> 00:39:12.244
And it changes all the time.
00:39:12.781 --> 00:39:17.221
Frustrating thing is it changes a tiny bit I don't know if you've noticed with
00:39:17.221 --> 00:39:21.301
office every year there's a new thing comes out and it's slightly different
00:39:21.301 --> 00:39:25.901
and sometimes it was the same as four years ago and sometimes it's and try to
00:39:25.901 --> 00:39:28.161
remember how it works is it constant.
00:39:29.061 --> 00:39:34.801
But yeah so let's let's move on to the vision of the future and I know that
00:39:34.801 --> 00:39:39.141
Laura at the beginning you said and you've almost touched on it there a little
00:39:39.141 --> 00:39:42.741
bit you know, AI and the importance of that.
00:39:43.581 --> 00:39:49.781
And you've talked a lot about advocacy, but is there, you know,
00:39:49.961 --> 00:39:55.821
we have to have hope that the future will be brighter for school libraries.
00:39:55.981 --> 00:39:59.021
We just have to, because what's the point of us being here talking about it?
00:39:59.081 --> 00:40:00.921
If there's no hope, we might as well just go home now.
00:40:01.201 --> 00:40:08.401
But how is it going to change and what needs to be done? Let me bring Rachel
00:40:08.401 --> 00:40:10.361
in before I bring Laura back in.
00:40:10.961 --> 00:40:16.521
Yeah, I think what Laura said earlier about having it within the teacher training
00:40:16.521 --> 00:40:21.041
program, that would be amazing, wouldn't it? That I think would make a massive difference.
00:40:21.401 --> 00:40:27.821
I think the changes to curriculum that are being proposed, as again,
00:40:28.061 --> 00:40:33.301
Laura mentioned about media literacy, that's really exciting.
00:40:33.301 --> 00:40:40.081
The problem and this gets talked about a lot on your podcasts Elizabeth I know is around this.
00:40:41.901 --> 00:40:44.981
The the it the
00:40:44.981 --> 00:40:52.861
very complicated situation of some some library staff are willing and able to
00:40:52.861 --> 00:40:59.381
do the media literacy information literacy piece some aren't teachers understandings
00:40:59.381 --> 00:41:02.421
of it are different, you know, it's very complex,
00:41:02.701 --> 00:41:05.081
isn't it? There's not like one...
00:41:05.778 --> 00:41:09.098
Understanding of what a librarian can do yeah
00:41:09.098 --> 00:41:11.858
and that I don't know
00:41:11.858 --> 00:41:15.018
how that's going to change but hopefully it
00:41:15.018 --> 00:41:18.298
will the libraries in primary schools
00:41:18.298 --> 00:41:21.918
is another big positive the reading
00:41:21.918 --> 00:41:28.358
the year of reading next year big government thing so there are lots of things
00:41:28.358 --> 00:41:33.278
going on which I think libraries can really get behind a lot around well-being
00:41:33.278 --> 00:41:40.358
and everything you know we know everything we can do but yeah I am I am hopeful.
00:41:43.078 --> 00:41:44.438
And what about you Lara,
00:41:45.316 --> 00:41:52.876
Yeah, I'm hopeful because I don't see how they're going to make an archaic education
00:41:52.876 --> 00:41:57.536
system designed in Victorian times really work for that much longer.
00:41:57.856 --> 00:42:04.956
There's a lot of money tied into making it keep the way it is with private exam companies, et cetera.
00:42:05.676 --> 00:42:12.976
But with AI now very much doing the work within workforces, they don't need grants anymore.
00:42:12.976 --> 00:42:16.496
They don't need people running machinery
00:42:16.496 --> 00:42:19.416
like that they need thinkers and they need people
00:42:19.416 --> 00:42:22.376
who will think outside of a box which means they're
00:42:22.376 --> 00:42:26.336
gonna have to change learning and now
00:42:26.336 --> 00:42:29.496
is the time I think and I really believe
00:42:29.496 --> 00:42:32.636
SILIP needs to really get in
00:42:32.636 --> 00:42:35.796
here and start advocating school libraries
00:42:35.796 --> 00:42:40.036
in a huge way of exactly where
00:42:40.036 --> 00:42:46.496
we can but as rachel said we need all the school librarians to get on board
00:42:46.496 --> 00:42:52.876
with this and you're very right we're a very individualistic group and it has
00:42:52.876 --> 00:42:56.576
nothing to do with whether you're qualified or not it's to do with confidence.
00:42:57.636 --> 00:43:00.496
And that's where what you
00:43:00.496 --> 00:43:03.916
did Elizabeth was amazing with running your group
00:43:03.916 --> 00:43:07.856
and networking and that people could join you
00:43:07.856 --> 00:43:16.836
and learn more about what we can do and I think the very fact that we're working
00:43:16.836 --> 00:43:21.276
in school libraries or wanting to work in school libraries means we have the
00:43:21.276 --> 00:43:25.916
mindset to a certain extent that you can then push people to
00:43:25.898 --> 00:43:29.078
into doing all the literacy skills
00:43:29.078 --> 00:43:32.238
doing the IT work doing the things
00:43:32.238 --> 00:43:35.658
that need to be done but don't forget reading is
00:43:35.658 --> 00:43:38.898
just as important we have to cover two problems yeah
00:43:38.898 --> 00:43:41.978
because the thing is if they can't read they can't do anything
00:43:41.978 --> 00:43:45.018
on AI or the media literacy or the research
00:43:45.018 --> 00:43:48.618
skills or anything so so yes the love of
00:43:48.618 --> 00:43:51.558
reading and that's the thing and the thing that
00:43:51.558 --> 00:43:54.378
the government I was tried and pushed to
00:43:54.378 --> 00:43:57.638
my school certainly was that research shows
00:43:57.638 --> 00:44:00.998
that if you have a love of reading
00:44:00.998 --> 00:44:03.738
and that is not an English lesson it's
00:44:03.738 --> 00:44:06.898
not knowing how to read it's actually
00:44:06.898 --> 00:44:10.758
enjoying what you're reading and so
00:44:10.758 --> 00:44:14.278
it's not about forcing every child to read Dickens when.
00:44:14.278 --> 00:44:17.498
They're 10 you know it's about
00:44:17.498 --> 00:44:20.878
going okay try a manga or
00:44:20.878 --> 00:44:24.278
try a graphic novel or try a comic book or
00:44:24.278 --> 00:44:27.338
see where you go and then
00:44:27.338 --> 00:44:30.818
as that as they enjoy the
00:44:30.818 --> 00:44:33.758
fantasy land created within reading you can
00:44:33.758 --> 00:44:37.098
then say oh but do you know this book is about dragons
00:44:37.098 --> 00:44:39.918
as well or this book is about carmen this is
00:44:39.918 --> 00:44:43.438
about bar racing which you love or this book is you
00:44:43.438 --> 00:44:46.298
know footballers as macbeth it's like
00:44:46.298 --> 00:44:50.658
whatever but you can lead the children on and
00:44:50.658 --> 00:44:53.618
i think a lot of schools when
00:44:53.618 --> 00:44:57.418
when they saw that document from the government a couple of years ago they went
00:44:57.418 --> 00:45:03.858
oh we've just given that to the english department to do i want to go okay so
00:45:03.858 --> 00:45:08.718
the children are sitting and they're quite a lot the ones you really want to
00:45:08.718 --> 00:45:11.418
catch are the ones that hate their English lessons,
00:45:12.058 --> 00:45:15.598
because otherwise they would already have the love of learning and you want
00:45:15.598 --> 00:45:19.218
the teacher that they hate to get the love of learning.
00:45:19.958 --> 00:45:24.378
You need neutral you need somebody who is not involved in their exams.
00:45:24.989 --> 00:45:27.769
And their academic life and that they see in
00:45:27.769 --> 00:45:30.829
lessons that they're not afraid to fail
00:45:30.829 --> 00:45:34.569
in front of that they're not afraid to admit you
00:45:34.569 --> 00:45:37.989
know we as librarians were the pastoral carers
00:45:37.989 --> 00:45:44.469
of those children you know way before a teacher got involved and that's our
00:45:44.469 --> 00:45:51.669
superpower so on a final note then laura what message would you like to lead
00:45:51.669 --> 00:45:56.149
listeners but both librarians and school leaders about why supporting effective
00:45:56.149 --> 00:45:57.549
school management matters?
00:45:57.949 --> 00:46:06.549
I think what a school library can provide you with is a sword and a shield to any school.
00:46:06.789 --> 00:46:11.889
It provides you with the shield of protection, of supporting your teachers,
00:46:11.889 --> 00:46:20.609
of having their backs, of helping them through a large amount of work that they're trying.
00:46:20.829 --> 00:46:23.769
And normally their reason for not working a librarian is we're
00:46:23.769 --> 00:46:26.629
too busy but actually a librarian can step in
00:46:26.629 --> 00:46:29.909
and save them some and help
00:46:29.909 --> 00:46:32.629
them and also we can be the sword in
00:46:32.629 --> 00:46:38.369
that we can take those children and we can help them fight and learn you know
00:46:38.369 --> 00:46:43.669
we can take them forward with informational literacy and learning about bias
00:46:43.669 --> 00:46:48.909
and learning all these research and how important it is for the children to
00:46:48.909 --> 00:46:50.409
work with knowledge so it's like.
00:46:51.069 --> 00:46:53.689
You've got this you have the power
00:46:53.689 --> 00:46:57.409
to do this and the library is so well resourced that the librarian who
00:46:57.784 --> 00:47:01.604
can find the resources that you need outside
00:47:01.604 --> 00:47:04.704
of the lesson subject matter to help
00:47:04.704 --> 00:47:07.964
the overall education of the child so
00:47:07.964 --> 00:47:11.484
your school then starts having successful children
00:47:11.484 --> 00:47:16.864
in the world of work these are the children from your school that are getting
00:47:16.864 --> 00:47:21.664
fired because they can do critical thinking because they can brainstorm and
00:47:21.664 --> 00:47:25.964
come up with ideas outside the box they become important They're not just doing
00:47:25.964 --> 00:47:28.884
what AI can do. They're providing something else.
00:47:29.364 --> 00:47:32.824
And then you can start promoting yourself, whether you're state,
00:47:32.984 --> 00:47:38.044
academy or private, as a school where your children are not being made redundant,
00:47:38.284 --> 00:47:40.864
but they are successful in work life.
00:47:41.224 --> 00:47:44.724
And that, I think, is going to be huge coming up in the next few years.
00:47:45.524 --> 00:47:49.104
Fantastic. Thank you very much. And what about you, Rachel? How do you follow that?
00:47:49.644 --> 00:47:53.924
I don't know if I can. Yeah, a lot of what you've just said,
00:47:54.024 --> 00:47:55.584
Laura, is what I've got written here.
00:47:55.724 --> 00:48:02.184
But I suppose what I would say maybe to the school leaders is just to really
00:48:02.184 --> 00:48:03.924
invest in your librarian,
00:48:03.924 --> 00:48:11.244
because I'm in a role now where I'm so fortunate that my line manager is supportive,
00:48:11.244 --> 00:48:20.224
is a big library advocate, and has given me opportunities to develop my skills.
00:48:20.224 --> 00:48:26.664
And that's amazing and I get to do all these great things and push myself and
00:48:26.664 --> 00:48:33.804
challenge myself and I'm now hopefully doing that with my staff but,
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:39.479
It needs that person. It needs someone to provide those opportunities.
00:48:40.279 --> 00:48:45.739
And, yeah, I would say that's what I'd love school leaders to do,
00:48:45.859 --> 00:48:47.779
like really invest in their librarians.
00:48:48.839 --> 00:48:54.719
Perfect. Thank you. So we need those that are managing libraries to learn about
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:59.999
what the school library is all about and how to give them the support effectively
00:48:59.999 --> 00:49:02.439
to make it all come together perfectly.
00:49:02.439 --> 00:49:07.219
Great way to finish thank you so much for your time this evening both of you
00:49:07.219 --> 00:49:11.739
as always anything we've talked about will be in the show notes below if you'd
00:49:11.739 --> 00:49:14.919
like to comment on anything you've heard today we'd love to hear your thoughts
00:49:14.919 --> 00:49:19.819
don't forget to subscribe to my podcast so you don't miss out on future discussions
00:49:19.819 --> 00:49:21.879
thank you very much for listening.