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Sarah Peterson [00:00:00]:
Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. Before we dive into today's episode, I do wanna take a moment to thank the friends, family, and loved ones who have supported me in my grief. You know who you are. Your love and presence have been my strength, and this podcast wouldn't exist without the lessons I've learned from you and with you. To our listeners and supporters, thank you for believing in this work and joining me in creating a space for healing and connection. Today's episode is called layers of friendship and grief, and I'll be sitting down with one of my very best friends, Nora, to share the story of our deep bond from being pregnant together to how she supported me through the unimaginable loss of my daughter, Marley, and the loss of my dad, Jimbo. We'll also explore the layers of her own grief, how she received care as a griever, and her advice for those supporting loved ones in grief. This conversation is a powerful reminder of the strength and beauty that can exist in a friendship even in the face of sorrow.
Sarah Peterson [00:00:53]:
And as always, I wanna remind you that help is available. If you're in crisis, please don't hesitate to call the suicide and crisis lifeline at 988. You're never alone. Let's begin this special episode with Nora and honor the bond that holds us through life and loss. Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path alongside my work with my nonprofit, Clear Morning. Clear Morning is dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through support, innovation, and awareness. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you.
Sarah Peterson [00:01:44]:
Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing. Let's walk through this journey together. Welcome back, everybody. This is a very special podcast for me and, I think, for my guest, my very special guest. I have Nora with me today, and you've heard us mention Nora in other episodes. But today, we're very lucky to be having her here to talk about what it meant to be a supporter and as well as a griever to my experience. Nora and I are about as close as 2 friends can be.
Sarah Peterson [00:02:22]:
Like, she's gonna come out here and visit me. And she's like, well, what are we gonna do besides work? And I said, we're gonna cuddle on the couch because that sounds wonderful.
Nora Smith [00:02:29]:
Whatever else will we do.
Sarah Peterson [00:02:31]:
Whatever else will do is fine. So thank you, Nora, for doing this.
Nora Smith [00:02:35]:
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Peterson [00:02:38]:
Nora and I are about 25 100 miles apart at this point. So we've, we're not normal technical podcasters, so it's been a little bit of a learning curve for both of us on how to do this. So the theme of standing by me through thick and thin even holds true in this podcast experience.
Nora Smith [00:02:54]:
Yeah. It's coming back to me that way too. So that's
Sarah Peterson [00:02:59]:
So it makes it even luckier that we're here today, because we've actually I think we've actually figured out how to do this. And so lucky for us and lucky for you listeners.
Nora Smith [00:03:07]:
Yeah. Technical challenges, beware.
Sarah Peterson [00:03:10]:
Beware. Okay. So the reason why we're doing this episode is because well, Nora, having been one of the closest people to me, has walked this journey with me and been an incredible supporter. She's also a part of my organization, Clear Morning, as a staff member and has been witness to a lot of the work that we do either with kids in our own communities or online or workshops. And what is always evident to us is this sort of question mark around how to be an incredible supporter to somebody who's grieving. And, you know, here's a sidebar. I was talking to one of our mutual friends, and she had experienced a loss in the last year. And and she's like, you know, Sarah, I was listening to your podcast, but, you know, you say don't walk away from your griever.
Sarah Peterson [00:03:55]:
But with this particular loss, like, there's a lot of grievers. Do I have to stick with all of them through all of it all the time? And I just I was like, oh, what a really great question. I'm so glad she brought that up. Because, no, with one death, there can be so many people grieving that loss. And as a supporter, to do the type of support when that I'm talking about when I say don't walk away from your griever, like, you sort of just have to pick your griever. Do you agree with that?
Nora Smith [00:04:22]:
Yeah. I don't think it would be possible to take on, like, a whole family. But certainly, you know, you lend support by being support to any one of those members of the family. You are supporting, you know, more of the family. Maybe also the idea of, like, sure, you can still call somebody or send them that text or a card to let them know that you're thinking about them, but the pick your grief is that's kind of a funny idea. It sounds like a game show or something.
Sarah Peterson [00:04:56]:
Oh, what a terrible game show.
Nora Smith [00:04:58]:
What a terrible, sad show.
Sarah Peterson [00:05:02]:
Terrible, sad show where we're gonna have you pick a Griever.
Sarah Peterson [00:05:07]:
And what would that criteria be?
Nora Smith [00:05:08]:
Well, there's something to it because, like you said, you used that word, pick your Griever. But it is like you do you know, like, who either are you more aligned with that you know you're gonna, like, spiritually match or emotionally be a better blanket for, or, you know, whatever who you align with in those ways to pick.
Sarah Peterson [00:05:32]:
Right. As a supporter, who you align with? And in considering the criteria of your griever, are they open to your support would probably be a little bit of it because that exchange has to be fluid in some ways, you know, just in some ways because we'll get more into, like, how unopen I was to support. But knowing full well that, yes, Nora was one of the people who I would want to be supporting me and having that belief, that core belief that you really, I think, would have to lean on in the times when people aren't getting back to you or returning messages or saying no. That, like, deep in your soul, you know, I am the one for this job.
Nora Smith [00:06:06]:
Yeah. There is that deep I intuition is all I can think of as a word like "trust" maybe.
Sarah Peterson [00:06:11]:
Yeah.
Nora Smith [00:06:13]:
Yeah. And the trust and knowledge in our relationship that you would be able to tell me, like, no. You know, you're not going to just take my care that I'm putting into you. If you don't want it, you would tell me to and say, like, no. And as a supporter to not be offended because I also couldn't be the only supporter. That's a huge element I was thinking about today is you can't be everything to one person. And so you had such a fantastic network of supporters in care. Some of us were messaging within each other about who can check-in with Sarah today.
Nora Smith [00:06:59]:
My schedule's stacked, and somebody would say, I'm already going for a walk with her later. And it was like, great. Okay. It was huge.
Sarah Peterson [00:07:08]:
Such a care plan for me. You guys really nailed it. These people took such good care of me. Listeners, you can't even believe the kind of quality of love and care that I got. But it is it has reminded me of a time when it was very recent, the loss, and some other people had got me a rose bush, and I was so pissed about it. I was like, why would somebody get me a bush? I can't plant a bush, and I was just so vile about it. And you're like, I got you that bush. Like, oh my god.
Sarah Peterson [00:07:39]:
I'm so sorry. Thank you. Thank you. And then you said you said, how about I just come and you just have to sit there and I'll plant it? And then I was like, I can do that. And I will never forget sitting in my front yard on a rock while you dug a beautiful hole and planted this gorgeous rose bush, which now, as one can imagine, I love and cherish so much. And it's a beautiful, beautiful part of my view. So that was what I was thinking of. Like, wow.
Sarah Peterson [00:08:07]:
You might have to hear no sometimes, or I'll say that, you know, the griever says the dumb thing too.
Nora Smith [00:08:12]:
Yeah. You know, which isn't dumb. Your, you know, your emotions coming out, but it is true. Yeah. Where you're like, oh, stuck my foot in my mouth a little bit. I mean, I love this bush. Oops.
Sarah Peterson [00:08:22]:
And I love this bush. So thoughtful. But then too, like, as a supporter, maybe you did consider, but I could see a lot of supporters not thinking through, like, oh, does my griever have capacity to plant a bush, tend to the flowers, do the thing that I think is thoughtful, and it is. But, like, not every griever is able to care for things
Nora Smith [00:08:43]:
Water it. In those moments. Right? Water it. Can't water it. I just can't be responsible for that.
Sarah Peterson [00:08:49]:
Can't. Exactly. Okay. So let's go back. Nora and I have been friends since we were 9 10 years old. So decades I mean, we're in our mid forties now, so that's a really long time. And I'm bad at math, but I can't remember a life without her. And we've shared so many incredible things and milestones through our time as friends together, And one of the most profound was when we were both pregnant with Nora's first child and then me with Marley.
Sarah Peterson [00:09:14]:
And so we went through that entire pregnancy together, and it was so special. Don't you think?
Nora Smith [00:09:20]:
It was. It was magic to have, like I mean, pregnancy. I was definitely living more in, like, pregnancy, so magic space. You didn't love pregnancy, I feel like, quite as much, but you were also a huge support for me because you'd been through it before. It was beautiful to have this, like, 24-hour support line of like, what is going on here? And you were crack up like, oh, yeah, this is totally 6 months, whatever, you know, all the stages and all the steps.
Sarah Peterson [00:09:53]:
But, yeah, that pregnancy was like, the pregnancy itself wasn't hard, but I was working full time. I was in grad school. I had field placement. I had a 3 year old. It was nuts, man. Mhmm. It was crazy. That was a wild time.
Sarah Peterson [00:10:06]:
Good to be young. Yeah. Couldn't pull that off again. But as one can imagine, Nora and I shared all kinds of dreams that were supposed to last a lifetime of our kids growing up together and probably even getting married and making our, you know, relationship more official and on paper as family. And they were born only 12 hours apart. And I think it's wonderful to remember the times that they did get to spend together, and there were those times.
Nora Smith [00:10:32]:
Absolutely. They did have times together.
Sarah Peterson [00:10:35]:
They did.
Nora Smith [00:10:36]:
It transcended too when Marley died and having that realization that every time my son has a milestone, it'll be a piece that it will always because of their closeness, because of our closeness and they're born less than 12 hours apart was like, Aisley when Aisley gets his driver's license, I'm gonna think about Marley. And when Aisley goes to kindergarten, I'm gonna think about Marley. And when you know, all those pieces.
Sarah Peterson [00:11:09]:
Yeah. And me learning to live with that and still, of course, love and adore you and your children, but also navigate the hole that I see and have had to learn to live with when watching, Eisley, especially. I mean, that could be its own episode because there was a really long time where being around the kids, any kids, but especially Eisley, was really hard because it was just this freaking burning hot ball of fire reminder of what I no longer had. And it wasn't driven by jealousy, and it wasn't driven by anything other than just total Your loss. And sadness and missing and yearning. And that could be a whole another episode, really, because that that was a journey.
Nora Smith [00:11:51]:
It was. It there was a
Sarah Peterson [00:11:53]:
And I got there, folks.
Nora Smith [00:11:54]:
You did. There was a feeling of like and I think you've got an episode on this too, like, how privileged I felt to be going forward with my baby still, my child, and to have you anywhere near Eisley, my son, it was it was difficult.
Sarah Peterson [00:12:15]:
It was really hard for a while. It was really hard. I still have those moments, not at all related to Eisley, but just, like, around the holidays where I more intentionally just sort of put my head down because I don't necessarily need to watch intact families do their holiday together. And because it is such a obvious and painful reminder of what I'm missing and what I who I'm lacking. And so, yeah, there's still pieces of that that exist, but it certainly took a lot of effort to grapple with and come to terms with Eisley's not Eisley, but, like, his position in my life, if that makes sense. Yeah. Because now the way I look at him is like a portal. Like, oh, this is what Marley would be doing in some ways.
Sarah Peterson [00:12:57]:
I mean, I know he's got his own hobbies and whatnot, which would probably be different. But in terms of, like, joining the team and making these friends and the way that he's talking and the things that he's interested in and how he engages, like, now it has become a little window into what I would have. And there's comfort there for me now.
Nora Smith [00:13:15]:
Yeah. I see that too. I definitely there's like a relationship that is, like, almost a piece that ties you to her or ties me to her. That's yeah.
Sarah Peterson [00:13:26]:
Shout out to Isley. Thank you. I mean, we might as well shout out to your other son too, Harvey. He's pretty cool.
Nora Smith [00:13:31]:
Oh, man.
Sarah Peterson [00:13:32]:
Two different roles. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, why we wanted to do this episode, like I said, is because both Nora and I working in the grief world, we see this sort of thirst for how to do this as a supporter. And at the same time as you are supporting, you are also often grieving the same loss. And I'm just curious, Nora. Like, obviously, you love Marley. You love my dad.
Sarah Peterson [00:13:52]:
I mean, my dad and Nora's dad were in the folk choir at church since the beginning of time. So our families are really intertwined, and turns on my dad was pretty awesome, so everybody kinda loved him anyway. But how did you navigate being tip top of my supporter list, which was an incredible task or I don't wanna say burden, maybe that's not the right word, but an incredible stone to carry. I don't know. Heart heavy experience, very demanding job, and also do your own grief around the losses because it was there. Right?
Nora Smith [00:14:27]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think it goes alongside, like, the ripple. I think of all grief as a ripple. And there were times when you're carrying taking on the role of supporter, and my grief would get interjected in and be amidst that, those experiences, but a little often a little to the side. There were times when I would come home and then I would grieve. Then it was my turn and then my husband was often the supporter and he would support me and my grief and the 2 of us together. He grieves very privately, but there were those long weeping embraces of sadness together, just that space to really take my grief and being who I am, I'm assuming this happens with everyone.
Nora Smith [00:15:30]:
So much of my sadness was involved in your sadness. That is as an empathetic creature as I hope for most humans to have or all of us to have at least some degree of is feeling that sadness, that weight that you would now have, and that needed a lot of tending.
Sarah Peterson [00:15:53]:
Yeah. Because I can only imagine when something this close happens, like, you as a human, as a mother, must go a little bit into, oh my god, if this were me. Yeah. And grieving almost the imaginary loss on behalf of me because it's so unfathomable.
Nora Smith [00:16:08]:
Yes. Absolutely.
Sarah Peterson [00:16:10]:
Okay. So, like, I wanna talk about the takeaway from what Nora just said in my mind. And, Nora, tell me if I'm right, is as a supporter, I think it's really easy to have your grief diminished and untended because of this and listen to our episode on competitive grief, right, which was the last one. Because it like, oh, well, it's not as bad as what Sarah's going through. It's not as bad as what this person's going through. You know, I'm on the outside of this loss. So it's really easy to discount or diminish your grief as a supporter. But what I heard Nora say was I had to do both.
Sarah Peterson [00:16:40]:
Like, show up and realize that when I'm with you, Sarah, it is your loss we're dealing with. And when I go home, it is my loss we're dealing with. Is that what you're saying?
Nora Smith [00:16:48]:
Yeah. That's a nice summary of it. Yes.
Sarah Peterson [00:16:51]:
And there's a concept called the grief ring theory that I talk a lot about when I'm doing workshops or even with clients that really illustrates this. And it's basically a target at the center is the person that the terrible thing has happened to. And the criteria to be in one of the rings is that you as a supporter are willing to simply pour in support, and that you are okay having the person at the center just dump out whatever's coming. And I think that that's great. I love that visual. And then we have to remember that turning the page and allowing each one of the supporters or each one of the other people to be at the center is so important. Like, you got home and you turn the page to where you now you were at the center of the map, and you needed the people to pour in the support while you dumped
Nora Smith [00:17:33]:
out. Absolutely. It's necessary. And I had people texting me. I feel like you know, you had Shannon Kelly on, maybe a a few weeks couple weeks ago? Yeah. She was someone that I swear almost every time I felt like for a while when I would pull into my driveway after being with you, there'd be a text message on my phone from Shannon just saying, I love you and I hope you can drink lots of water today. Or some little simple nudge from her that was just turned back into, like, okay, caring for me and my grief and how I need to process.
Sarah Peterson [00:18:14]:
Yeah. And this is this goes back to pick your griever too. Like, Shannon is a dear and close person in my life, and she picked her griever, and her griever was Nora. And by virtue of caring for Nora and her grief experience, Nora was able to care for me. So Shannon was still caring for me, and I'm sure I got text from Shannon too. But, I mean, we know Shan. But that's what we're talking about when we say pick your griever. Like, Shannon chose to take care of Nora and support her in her grief process so that and thanks to that, Nora could then show up for me.
Sarah Peterson [00:18:45]:
Absolutely. Full circle moment.
Nora Smith [00:18:47]:
And she'd definitely be a great game show host for Pick Your Greet.
Sarah Peterson [00:18:50]:
Oh my god. For Pick Your Greet. Well, she and I talked a lot about having our own little podcast, and we came up with some really dark humor around the title for sure, like laugh till you die or
Nora Smith [00:19:09]:
oh, nice.
Sarah Peterson [00:19:10]:
Laugh till you die, pick your griever. Oh my god. That's really good. Another layer, Nora, that I think is worth talking about for thinking about the supporters who are listening to this is of the grief you must have faced in wondering if I was ever gonna come back. You know? Like, here we are friends for decades, gone through life together, and in some ways, you lost me too.
Nora Smith [00:19:31]:
Oh, that was a hard one. You know, that one came a little bit later, obviously, when the majority of the trauma had settled a bit and I got worried. My grief was deeply had a space of our friendship, the way that it was, might be gone. So, that grief, that was really hard because then it felt like I was losing my best friend.
Sarah Peterson [00:20:00]:
Yeah.
Nora Smith [00:20:01]:
And I knew I you were still alive and you were still here, but you know, what we had was maybe never gonna see the light of day again. And I was worried about that. I had real concerns, which I'm sure, as Griever, you you know, I know you've shared that you were worried you would never laugh again or that you would never
Sarah Peterson [00:20:23]:
yeah.
Nora Smith [00:20:23]:
Have joy.
Sarah Peterson [00:20:24]:
Sometimes I'll see this one picture of myself. It was at a wedding that you and I were both at many years ago, And maybe you even took the picture, but it's just a really lovely picture. I will you know, you find those one pictures of yourself there, like, oh, okay. That's great moment in time. I'll take it. But I look at that picture, and I just look so light and happy. And I remember seeing that picture many times over the last 8 years and thinking, oh, I miss her. Will she ever come back? And, you know, I think the takeaway here, like, as a supporter, as a griever is, like, cling to the cell of hope that pieces of the person will return.
Sarah Peterson [00:21:02]:
Because although I am forever changed, there are some core parts of me that I think have returned, don't you?
Nora Smith [00:21:09]:
Oh, absolutely. You are yourself and yes, we're changed. I think this is part of what makes our relationship honestly even more beautiful. And our friendship has just that added thickness to the layering of all that we are together, I think as friends. Because, yes, we crack up and we go back to the same silly places that we did, that I did. I think it's important to hear as a as a supporter that you might need to hold on to hope that it will come back.
Sarah Peterson [00:21:50]:
Exactly. And sometimes I think you carry the torch not only for yourself, but also for the griever. Like, just that enormous amount of trust that's required, that it will not always be this hard. I don't wanna say, like, standing by your griever will be worth it in the end, but in some ways, like, it is because you you might get parts of that person back that have kept you together for all these years. And you're right, Nora. We have had I mean, we've been telling the same joke for, like, 30 years, some of them. Right? Like, just kidding. Just kidding.
Sarah Peterson [00:22:21]:
I didn't punch you in the face. Just kidding.
Nora Smith [00:22:25]:
But if we're both laughing, what's the harm?
Sarah Peterson [00:22:27]:
Oh, right. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Bye bye. That's another one.
Nora Smith [00:22:31]:
But Oh my gosh.
Sarah Peterson [00:22:32]:
Look at here we are. I've returned to those things, and I promise you that I didn't think that that was possible. And in another episode, Marlys and Dean just talk about kind of holding that hope, holding that trust on behalf of the griever, but also as a supporter for yourself that this is a long and dusty road, and there's a reason beyond being a caring and loving person. But, like, the desire to have this person back in your life to the capacity that they're able makes it worth it. Does that sound terrible? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not a currency, but and it's not like strings attached, but I think we have to scrape up these hopes sometimes in those darkest times.
Nora Smith [00:23:08]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Getting that hanging on, you know? Sometimes Hang on. Hang on. Just hold the course and do what you can. It evolves. We're evolving with all of our life experiences.
Sarah Peterson [00:23:24]:
Yeah. And maybe Nora and I are making this grief experience that we endured together sound really sort of calm and strategic, and I just wanna make sure you guys know that there was nothing like that.
Nora Smith [00:23:38]:
This is all I'm saying. Not, like, pleasantly just I wasn't just like, oh gosh.
Sarah Peterson [00:23:44]:
Sarah, whatever you need. Nora had to arrange her life many times to accommodate me and then would find that I wasn't home or unresponsive to texts or calls. That had to have been really hard.
Nora Smith [00:23:54]:
It was a mess. I mean, I think it for both of us, it was a mess. That's one of the scary things about being a supporter. Well, honestly, the grieever too, but we're just for this perspective. It is a deep dark unknown, and you don't know. I never knew how you were feeling that day, how you would respond to anything that I might put forward that day. The arranging yeah. I would have to do to try to get some time with you and then perhaps you weren't even home or you were I who knows where? So that stuff was really messy.
Sarah Peterson [00:24:34]:
And we sorted it eventually. I mean, like, Nora, I'll never forget, and it must have been in after April because I was actually driving and she was on Bluetooth, and and I think I had missed a time that we were supposed to be together. And I was, like, probably saying, I'm sorry, blah. She's like, you know, I can live with that part, Sarah, but it's the part where I don't hear from you around what's going on. That is so hard. And what can we do so that you just respond to me? Because I need to know what's happening. And, I mean, I think that was driven by, like, physical mental health safety stuff, but also, like, courteous of her time and energy that she has put together a day where we were supposed to be together, and here I blew her off or flaked out or just lost track. So then we came up with a system.
Sarah Peterson [00:25:17]:
1, I'm so relieved Nora said that because that was part of the evolution of us doing this together was her having boundaries and me honoring and respecting her role as one that is allowed to have boundaries too. And granted, you guys, this was months later. It wasn't like day 3. Hey. Why aren't you calling me back? But Yeah. Right. Months later, 5, 6, 7 months later, that this level of behavior on my part was continuing, and there had to be a negotiation around it. So we came up with a system where a certain color heart meant this and another color heart meant that.
Sarah Peterson [00:25:49]:
And that gave her the heads up like, hey. I am physically and mentally breathing alive. Okay. I'm just lost track. I'm lost in my schedule, Or I'm barely breathing. I'm hanging on by a thread and can't can't do it. Come over. Find me.
Sarah Peterson [00:26:05]:
And that worked for us.
Nora Smith [00:26:06]:
Yeah. It was so helpful to just hear anything. I mean, I think that's key giving me, yeah, some temperature of how you were doing that day and whether or not I could make something happen to assist or call. You know, you didn't pick up most of the time. You didn't pick up the phone. So the texting like that little bit of like that color heart was like, okay. Even just because I'm a spiritual person too and I want to be sending the right kind of energy to you, You know? I want to hold you in a certain light. And so that always helped me understand what you needed that day, even if I couldn't physically be there with you.
Sarah Peterson [00:26:52]:
Yeah. I can imagine that that would be really helpful. And so I'm sorry that I keep using the words, the takeaway here, but I I really want the supporters to get what we're saying. Because like I said, it was messy. Like Nora said, it was really messy while we were going through this, but we've learned so much. And so how can we pass this on to you? The takeaway there is as a supporter, look it. I survived Nora asking for what she needed in order to support me, and she survived asking for it. And then it evolved into a more compassionate and successful supportive relationship because we both had what we needed.
Sarah Peterson [00:27:27]:
So as a supporter, you're allowed to say to yourself, obviously, but even to your griever, you know, read the room, like, not day 3. Why don't you call me back? Right. But at some point, you'll know if you know and love this person when it's okay to sort of come up with, hey. I'm trying to support you, and this is what I need to be successful in that. Can you do this with me? Which is essentially the bones of what the conversation that Nora and I had. Yeah. I had other conversations with other supporters who love me that didn't go like that. I think coming from the place of love and not fear in that conversation is so important.
Sarah Peterson [00:28:08]:
Other conversations might have sounded like, well, we lost Marley too, and we can't do this. And all of that is raw and real. But if we go back to the concept of the the grief ring theory, like, I'm at the center in these relationships when I'm experiencing this loss. And in those times, it did not feel like a one way unconditional dumping in of support and dumping out of grief. It felt more like a two way street. And so in those situations, it would have been great to have that person turn the page and lean on their supporters to have the frustration part of it show up. Because, ultimately, I think everybody who knows me and loves me did believe I was really doing my best, so it wasn't a matter of that. And, again, we're just hindsight folks here for you.
Sarah Peterson [00:28:50]:
So you can think about, like, how can I have this conversation that's driven by love? 1st for myself as a supporter and then for my griever. Hey. Here's the story I'm telling myself when you don't pick up for 6 hours and we had plans. I think you're laying dead in a ditch somewhere, and I don't know what to do with myself. So can we alleviate that by this?
Nora Smith [00:29:07]:
Mhmm. Just help me know that that's not the case.
Sarah Peterson [00:29:11]:
Exactly. Okay. So we've got grief groups for grievers. I wish that I could have support groups for supporters because it is that is a big, hard job. And I don't think it's thankless, but I do think it takes an incredible amount of resilience and trust in the process. So if you were leading that group, like, what would be some of the things you just absolutely would want these supporters to hear from you? Because you're kind of an expert now.
Nora Smith [00:29:41]:
Gosh. Okay. So don't give up hope that this will change no matter if you believe it won't or your griever believes it will never change. You can all feel it and still just hold on to that shred of hope. Being the supporter, it's not thankless, but it isn't about you. There's so much that we can do in our lives to help others that really elevates us. It really helps us feel good. And I think in grief support, that's not necessarily the case.
Nora Smith [00:30:18]:
It's not gonna maybe bring you down more, but there is such capacity to hold the space for somebody's sadness, to be involved and in witness to it, that it's not pleasant and it's not for you. And I think that that stepping away and just allowing it to sometimes feel like a job, a task, a position to hold, uphold as supporter that you can then set down. It is something that you can depending on the grief and the time in it, you know, it can waver and weave throughout your life.
Sarah Peterson [00:30:59]:
Yeah. And is there anything, like, when you look back in at all the things of the last 8 years, is there anything you think, oh, I would do that differently next time? Next time. May there not be a next time. Let's just be clear here, folks.
Nora Smith [00:31:11]:
Next time. Mhmm. If I were to do it again.
Sarah Peterson [00:31:15]:
But if you were to do it again, thank you for that correction. I don't know what I was thinking when I said that.
Nora Smith [00:31:20]:
There were times when I did try to it is my nature. I put on the rose colored glasses as often as I can. I look for the silver lining as often as I can, and I think that that was something like, just don't. Don't try to make you feel better. And I learned that this your particular grief was so harsh and so poignant that it quickly taught me. You quickly taught me, honestly. Because I remember very early on, we were in your mother's kitchen and we were there was a small group of us around. You were kind of divvying up jobs to get Marley's service in order.
Nora Smith [00:32:05]:
And there was this and there was that and there was these tasks and you were kinda running through and what it's gonna be like. And I said to you, it's gonna be really nice, Sarah, or it's gonna be really lovely. And you looked up at me and you said, no. It's not. This is the most terrible we should never be planning this. I hate this. Or, you know, something along those lines, but it taught me to, like, oh, yeah. This doesn't have to be pleasant in any way, and we're still gonna do it.
Nora Smith [00:32:37]:
So trying not to fix
Sarah Peterson [00:32:38]:
I think if we could inject each supporter with permission to pause before speaking, there's a lot to be learned in that pause. Even when I have a client who's bereaved coming in, I catch myself almost saying, good to see you. And I'm like, but it's not because the reason why they're here is terrible. So I'll say something like, I'm glad you made it here today, or it's good to have you with me now. Something to where I did create the pause, and there's less room for an argument. I mean, I screwed up all the time like I just did with next time. But to have permission to say, like, it's worth pausing to hear it through the ears of the griever because we're all gonna get wounded in our grief process. Everybody's gonna say something that triggers you, affects you, comes across the wrong way.
Sarah Peterson [00:33:21]:
You know? And as a griever, I think it is upon us to have an abundance of compassion for the people who are also doing their best in this experience. And there is an opportunity to pause and say, like, what will this sound like if through the ears of my griever?
Nora Smith [00:33:35]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [00:33:36]:
Of my griever, what will this sound like, and how can I reformat it as to diminish the trigger, the angst, create a softer landing, etcetera? Mhmm. So, yeah, like, skipping things like God has a plan. There's a reason for everything. Just don't.
Nora Smith [00:33:51]:
Mhmm. Everything happens for a reason. It's pretty tough. I mean,
Sarah Peterson [00:33:54]:
you never said, oh, god. No. Some things just happen that suck, I think.
Nora Smith [00:33:59]:
I mean, people still say it to me. When I explain who you are and what you've done in the world and, like, now this organization I mean, with this organization, Clear Morning, would not exist if that most terrible time in your life. I mean, maybe it would, but you know, here we are. No. And so Right. There is that element. And somebody said to me recently like, isn't that amazing? Everything happens for a reason. And I just that's not appreciated, actually.
Sarah Peterson [00:34:32]:
Right. Because if you think about it, I'd give up the podcast. I have my child back. That's for sure. I would give up every single thing ever, except for which this could be a whole another episode too. Is my youngest child also a product of the loss? And hate to say, like, she's only here because Marley died, and there's a part of that that might be very true because I thought I was done having children. So that is a whole another episode.
Nora Smith [00:34:56]:
That is. That is.
Sarah Peterson [00:34:58]:
When she was born, I I, like, could no longer trade this life for the old life Yeah. Which is weird. Yeah. Right. Whole another episode. I'm glad I see Nora writing it down right now, so that's good. It is a lonely experience grieving no matter who you're grieving because you are the only one who can do it, because you are the only one who had your relationship with the person, and yet you don't have to do it alone. And if you can find even one person to help walk this path with you as a griever, it's everything.
Sarah Peterson [00:35:30]:
And please, if you are in the darkest of times, reach out. As I said in the beginning, call the suicide or crisis hotline. They're there for you 24 hours a day, and there's no shame in getting that help. Call 911. No matter what, you actually are not alone. And if you can have people by your side, if you can open up to allow their support in, it does help. And, you know, as we're coming closer to the more holidays and that sort of thing, we wanna encourage everybody to check out our website and look at our grief supporters manual because it's our best attempt at creating a roadmap for supporters dealing with grievers. So I'm gonna just take the last few seconds here and talk about how grateful I am for your support, Nora, because with every fiber of my being, there's no way I would be where I am today with this organization in my life as a mom, as a friend, as a sister, as a daughter, as all the things all the hats I wear without your love and care and support and your unconditional love, which I feel.
Sarah Peterson [00:36:26]:
And it's just so profound. And I feel so fortunate because I know that there are people in this world that don't know that feeling, and you're somebody who gives it to me, and it's an incredible gift. So thank you.
Nora Smith [00:36:37]:
Oh, you're welcome.
Sarah Peterson [00:36:38]:
And I love you.
Nora Smith [00:36:39]:
And I love you. And I know that you send that out. You had not just me in this big support. You had a lot of people and I know you send that out. You regularly talk about the support of a whole host of people who love you. Yeah. Interjected in their either small or big ways, knowing as a supporter that you make a difference. You may not know it, you may not see it.
Nora Smith [00:37:07]:
And especially if you're not right on the inner circle, but those little things that every one of us can do as a supporter to nudge, to lend a hand in any way that works for you and your supporter and your griever, know that you make a difference.
Sarah Peterson [00:37:27]:
Know that you make a difference, absolutely, in your bones. And back to, like, holding that trust. If it doesn't feel instantly gratifying or you're not instantly certain that what you're doing is the right thing, holding the trust that even the seemingly smallest of movements really make such a difference. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for doing this with me 3 or 4 times. I Until we finally got it right.
Nora Smith [00:37:50]:
You think? I'm really hoping we got it.
Sarah Peterson [00:37:53]:
I think we got it. Thanks, everybody. Talk to you next week.
Sarah Peterson [00:38:00]:
Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself, and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
We feel it is important to make our podcast transcripts available for accessibility. We use quality artificial intelligence tools to make it possible for us to provide this resource to our audience. We do have human eyes reviewing this, but they will rarely be 100% accurate. We appreciate your patience with the occasional errors you will find in our transcriptions. If you find an error in our transcription, or if you would like to use a quote, or verify what was said, please feel free to reach out to us at connect@37by27.com.
Sarah Peterson [00:00:00]:
Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. Before we dive into today's episode, I do wanna take a moment to thank the friends, family, and loved ones who have supported me in my grief. You know who you are. Your love and presence have been my strength, and this podcast wouldn't exist without the lessons I've learned from you and with you. To our listeners and supporters, thank you for believing in this work and joining me in creating a space for healing and connection. Today's episode is called layers of friendship and grief, and I'll be sitting down with one of my very best friends, Nora, to share the story of our deep bond from being pregnant together to how she supported me through the unimaginable loss of my daughter, Marley, and the loss of my dad, Jimbo. We'll also explore the layers of her own grief, how she received care as a griever, and her advice for those supporting loved ones in grief. This conversation is a powerful reminder of the strength and beauty that can exist in a friendship even in the face of sorrow.
Sarah Peterson [00:00:53]:
And as always, I wanna remind you that help is available. If you're in crisis, please don't hesitate to call the suicide and crisis lifeline at 988. You're never alone. Let's begin this special episode with Nora and honor the bond that holds us through life and loss. Welcome to enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss, where we dive into real honest conversations about the journey through grief and the support that makes it possible. I'm Sarah Peterson, an LCSW, and in this space, I bring my experience as someone who has walked this path alongside my work with my nonprofit, Clear Morning. Clear Morning is dedicated to shifting the culture of grief through support, innovation, and awareness. In our first episode, I'll share my personal story and how I've come to this work, why it matters so deeply to me, and how it might resonate with you.
Sarah Peterson [00:01:44]:
Whether you're navigating your own loss or standing by someone who is, this space is for you. Join me as we uncover the stories, the struggles, and the hope that lead to healing. Let's walk through this journey together. Welcome back, everybody. This is a very special podcast for me and, I think, for my guest, my very special guest. I have Nora with me today, and you've heard us mention Nora in other episodes. But today, we're very lucky to be having her here to talk about what it meant to be a supporter and as well as a griever to my experience. Nora and I are about as close as 2 friends can be.
Sarah Peterson [00:02:22]:
Like, she's gonna come out here and visit me. And she's like, well, what are we gonna do besides work? And I said, we're gonna cuddle on the couch because that sounds wonderful.
Nora Smith [00:02:29]:
Whatever else will we do.
Sarah Peterson [00:02:31]:
Whatever else will do is fine. So thank you, Nora, for doing this.
Nora Smith [00:02:35]:
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Sarah Peterson [00:02:38]:
Nora and I are about 25 100 miles apart at this point. So we've, we're not normal technical podcasters, so it's been a little bit of a learning curve for both of us on how to do this. So the theme of standing by me through thick and thin even holds true in this podcast experience.
Nora Smith [00:02:54]:
Yeah. It's coming back to me that way too. So that's
Sarah Peterson [00:02:59]:
So it makes it even luckier that we're here today, because we've actually I think we've actually figured out how to do this. And so lucky for us and lucky for you listeners.
Nora Smith [00:03:07]:
Yeah. Technical challenges, beware.
Sarah Peterson [00:03:10]:
Beware. Okay. So the reason why we're doing this episode is because well, Nora, having been one of the closest people to me, has walked this journey with me and been an incredible supporter. She's also a part of my organization, Clear Morning, as a staff member and has been witness to a lot of the work that we do either with kids in our own communities or online or workshops. And what is always evident to us is this sort of question mark around how to be an incredible supporter to somebody who's grieving. And, you know, here's a sidebar. I was talking to one of our mutual friends, and she had experienced a loss in the last year. And and she's like, you know, Sarah, I was listening to your podcast, but, you know, you say don't walk away from your griever.
Sarah Peterson [00:03:55]:
But with this particular loss, like, there's a lot of grievers. Do I have to stick with all of them through all of it all the time? And I just I was like, oh, what a really great question. I'm so glad she brought that up. Because, no, with one death, there can be so many people grieving that loss. And as a supporter, to do the type of support when that I'm talking about when I say don't walk away from your griever, like, you sort of just have to pick your griever. Do you agree with that?
Nora Smith [00:04:22]:
Yeah. I don't think it would be possible to take on, like, a whole family. But certainly, you know, you lend support by being support to any one of those members of the family. You are supporting, you know, more of the family. Maybe also the idea of, like, sure, you can still call somebody or send them that text or a card to let them know that you're thinking about them, but the pick your grief is that's kind of a funny idea. It sounds like a game show or something.
Sarah Peterson [00:04:56]:
Oh, what a terrible game show.
Nora Smith [00:04:58]:
What a terrible, sad show.
Sarah Peterson [00:05:02]:
Terrible, sad show where we're gonna have you pick a Griever.
Sarah Peterson [00:05:07]:
And what would that criteria be?
Nora Smith [00:05:08]:
Well, there's something to it because, like you said, you used that word, pick your Griever. But it is like you do you know, like, who either are you more aligned with that you know you're gonna, like, spiritually match or emotionally be a better blanket for, or, you know, whatever who you align with in those ways to pick.
Sarah Peterson [00:05:32]:
Right. As a supporter, who you align with? And in considering the criteria of your griever, are they open to your support would probably be a little bit of it because that exchange has to be fluid in some ways, you know, just in some ways because we'll get more into, like, how unopen I was to support. But knowing full well that, yes, Nora was one of the people who I would want to be supporting me and having that belief, that core belief that you really, I think, would have to lean on in the times when people aren't getting back to you or returning messages or saying no. That, like, deep in your soul, you know, I am the one for this job.
Nora Smith [00:06:06]:
Yeah. There is that deep I intuition is all I can think of as a word like "trust" maybe.
Sarah Peterson [00:06:11]:
Yeah.
Nora Smith [00:06:13]:
Yeah. And the trust and knowledge in our relationship that you would be able to tell me, like, no. You know, you're not going to just take my care that I'm putting into you. If you don't want it, you would tell me to and say, like, no. And as a supporter to not be offended because I also couldn't be the only supporter. That's a huge element I was thinking about today is you can't be everything to one person. And so you had such a fantastic network of supporters in care. Some of us were messaging within each other about who can check-in with Sarah today.
Nora Smith [00:06:59]:
My schedule's stacked, and somebody would say, I'm already going for a walk with her later. And it was like, great. Okay. It was huge.
Sarah Peterson [00:07:08]:
Such a care plan for me. You guys really nailed it. These people took such good care of me. Listeners, you can't even believe the kind of quality of love and care that I got. But it is it has reminded me of a time when it was very recent, the loss, and some other people had got me a rose bush, and I was so pissed about it. I was like, why would somebody get me a bush? I can't plant a bush, and I was just so vile about it. And you're like, I got you that bush. Like, oh my god.
Sarah Peterson [00:07:39]:
I'm so sorry. Thank you. Thank you. And then you said you said, how about I just come and you just have to sit there and I'll plant it? And then I was like, I can do that. And I will never forget sitting in my front yard on a rock while you dug a beautiful hole and planted this gorgeous rose bush, which now, as one can imagine, I love and cherish so much. And it's a beautiful, beautiful part of my view. So that was what I was thinking of. Like, wow.
Sarah Peterson [00:08:07]:
You might have to hear no sometimes, or I'll say that, you know, the griever says the dumb thing too.
Nora Smith [00:08:12]:
Yeah. You know, which isn't dumb. Your, you know, your emotions coming out, but it is true. Yeah. Where you're like, oh, stuck my foot in my mouth a little bit. I mean, I love this bush. Oops.
Sarah Peterson [00:08:22]:
And I love this bush. So thoughtful. But then too, like, as a supporter, maybe you did consider, but I could see a lot of supporters not thinking through, like, oh, does my griever have capacity to plant a bush, tend to the flowers, do the thing that I think is thoughtful, and it is. But, like, not every griever is able to care for things
Nora Smith [00:08:43]:
Water it. In those moments. Right? Water it. Can't water it. I just can't be responsible for that.
Sarah Peterson [00:08:49]:
Can't. Exactly. Okay. So let's go back. Nora and I have been friends since we were 9 10 years old. So decades I mean, we're in our mid forties now, so that's a really long time. And I'm bad at math, but I can't remember a life without her. And we've shared so many incredible things and milestones through our time as friends together, And one of the most profound was when we were both pregnant with Nora's first child and then me with Marley.
Sarah Peterson [00:09:14]:
And so we went through that entire pregnancy together, and it was so special. Don't you think?
Nora Smith [00:09:20]:
It was. It was magic to have, like I mean, pregnancy. I was definitely living more in, like, pregnancy, so magic space. You didn't love pregnancy, I feel like, quite as much, but you were also a huge support for me because you'd been through it before. It was beautiful to have this, like, 24-hour support line of like, what is going on here? And you were crack up like, oh, yeah, this is totally 6 months, whatever, you know, all the stages and all the steps.
Sarah Peterson [00:09:53]:
But, yeah, that pregnancy was like, the pregnancy itself wasn't hard, but I was working full time. I was in grad school. I had field placement. I had a 3 year old. It was nuts, man. Mhmm. It was crazy. That was a wild time.
Sarah Peterson [00:10:06]:
Good to be young. Yeah. Couldn't pull that off again. But as one can imagine, Nora and I shared all kinds of dreams that were supposed to last a lifetime of our kids growing up together and probably even getting married and making our, you know, relationship more official and on paper as family. And they were born only 12 hours apart. And I think it's wonderful to remember the times that they did get to spend together, and there were those times.
Nora Smith [00:10:32]:
Absolutely. They did have times together.
Sarah Peterson [00:10:35]:
They did.
Nora Smith [00:10:36]:
It transcended too when Marley died and having that realization that every time my son has a milestone, it'll be a piece that it will always because of their closeness, because of our closeness and they're born less than 12 hours apart was like, Aisley when Aisley gets his driver's license, I'm gonna think about Marley. And when Aisley goes to kindergarten, I'm gonna think about Marley. And when you know, all those pieces.
Sarah Peterson [00:11:09]:
Yeah. And me learning to live with that and still, of course, love and adore you and your children, but also navigate the hole that I see and have had to learn to live with when watching, Eisley, especially. I mean, that could be its own episode because there was a really long time where being around the kids, any kids, but especially Eisley, was really hard because it was just this freaking burning hot ball of fire reminder of what I no longer had. And it wasn't driven by jealousy, and it wasn't driven by anything other than just total Your loss. And sadness and missing and yearning. And that could be a whole another episode, really, because that that was a journey.
Nora Smith [00:11:51]:
It was. It there was a
Sarah Peterson [00:11:53]:
And I got there, folks.
Nora Smith [00:11:54]:
You did. There was a feeling of like and I think you've got an episode on this too, like, how privileged I felt to be going forward with my baby still, my child, and to have you anywhere near Eisley, my son, it was it was difficult.
Sarah Peterson [00:12:15]:
It was really hard for a while. It was really hard. I still have those moments, not at all related to Eisley, but just, like, around the holidays where I more intentionally just sort of put my head down because I don't necessarily need to watch intact families do their holiday together. And because it is such a obvious and painful reminder of what I'm missing and what I who I'm lacking. And so, yeah, there's still pieces of that that exist, but it certainly took a lot of effort to grapple with and come to terms with Eisley's not Eisley, but, like, his position in my life, if that makes sense. Yeah. Because now the way I look at him is like a portal. Like, oh, this is what Marley would be doing in some ways.
Sarah Peterson [00:12:57]:
I mean, I know he's got his own hobbies and whatnot, which would probably be different. But in terms of, like, joining the team and making these friends and the way that he's talking and the things that he's interested in and how he engages, like, now it has become a little window into what I would have. And there's comfort there for me now.
Nora Smith [00:13:15]:
Yeah. I see that too. I definitely there's like a relationship that is, like, almost a piece that ties you to her or ties me to her. That's yeah.
Sarah Peterson [00:13:26]:
Shout out to Isley. Thank you. I mean, we might as well shout out to your other son too, Harvey. He's pretty cool.
Nora Smith [00:13:31]:
Oh, man.
Sarah Peterson [00:13:32]:
Two different roles. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, why we wanted to do this episode, like I said, is because both Nora and I working in the grief world, we see this sort of thirst for how to do this as a supporter. And at the same time as you are supporting, you are also often grieving the same loss. And I'm just curious, Nora. Like, obviously, you love Marley. You love my dad.
Sarah Peterson [00:13:52]:
I mean, my dad and Nora's dad were in the folk choir at church since the beginning of time. So our families are really intertwined, and turns on my dad was pretty awesome, so everybody kinda loved him anyway. But how did you navigate being tip top of my supporter list, which was an incredible task or I don't wanna say burden, maybe that's not the right word, but an incredible stone to carry. I don't know. Heart heavy experience, very demanding job, and also do your own grief around the losses because it was there. Right?
Nora Smith [00:14:27]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think it goes alongside, like, the ripple. I think of all grief as a ripple. And there were times when you're carrying taking on the role of supporter, and my grief would get interjected in and be amidst that, those experiences, but a little often a little to the side. There were times when I would come home and then I would grieve. Then it was my turn and then my husband was often the supporter and he would support me and my grief and the 2 of us together. He grieves very privately, but there were those long weeping embraces of sadness together, just that space to really take my grief and being who I am, I'm assuming this happens with everyone.
Nora Smith [00:15:30]:
So much of my sadness was involved in your sadness. That is as an empathetic creature as I hope for most humans to have or all of us to have at least some degree of is feeling that sadness, that weight that you would now have, and that needed a lot of tending.
Sarah Peterson [00:15:53]:
Yeah. Because I can only imagine when something this close happens, like, you as a human, as a mother, must go a little bit into, oh my god, if this were me. Yeah. And grieving almost the imaginary loss on behalf of me because it's so unfathomable.
Nora Smith [00:16:08]:
Yes. Absolutely.
Sarah Peterson [00:16:10]:
Okay. So, like, I wanna talk about the takeaway from what Nora just said in my mind. And, Nora, tell me if I'm right, is as a supporter, I think it's really easy to have your grief diminished and untended because of this and listen to our episode on competitive grief, right, which was the last one. Because it like, oh, well, it's not as bad as what Sarah's going through. It's not as bad as what this person's going through. You know, I'm on the outside of this loss. So it's really easy to discount or diminish your grief as a supporter. But what I heard Nora say was I had to do both.
Sarah Peterson [00:16:40]:
Like, show up and realize that when I'm with you, Sarah, it is your loss we're dealing with. And when I go home, it is my loss we're dealing with. Is that what you're saying?
Nora Smith [00:16:48]:
Yeah. That's a nice summary of it. Yes.
Sarah Peterson [00:16:51]:
And there's a concept called the grief ring theory that I talk a lot about when I'm doing workshops or even with clients that really illustrates this. And it's basically a target at the center is the person that the terrible thing has happened to. And the criteria to be in one of the rings is that you as a supporter are willing to simply pour in support, and that you are okay having the person at the center just dump out whatever's coming. And I think that that's great. I love that visual. And then we have to remember that turning the page and allowing each one of the supporters or each one of the other people to be at the center is so important. Like, you got home and you turn the page to where you now you were at the center of the map, and you needed the people to pour in the support while you dumped
Nora Smith [00:17:33]:
out. Absolutely. It's necessary. And I had people texting me. I feel like you know, you had Shannon Kelly on, maybe a a few weeks couple weeks ago? Yeah. She was someone that I swear almost every time I felt like for a while when I would pull into my driveway after being with you, there'd be a text message on my phone from Shannon just saying, I love you and I hope you can drink lots of water today. Or some little simple nudge from her that was just turned back into, like, okay, caring for me and my grief and how I need to process.
Sarah Peterson [00:18:14]:
Yeah. And this is this goes back to pick your griever too. Like, Shannon is a dear and close person in my life, and she picked her griever, and her griever was Nora. And by virtue of caring for Nora and her grief experience, Nora was able to care for me. So Shannon was still caring for me, and I'm sure I got text from Shannon too. But, I mean, we know Shan. But that's what we're talking about when we say pick your griever. Like, Shannon chose to take care of Nora and support her in her grief process so that and thanks to that, Nora could then show up for me.
Sarah Peterson [00:18:45]:
Absolutely. Full circle moment.
Nora Smith [00:18:47]:
And she'd definitely be a great game show host for Pick Your Greet.
Sarah Peterson [00:18:50]:
Oh my god. For Pick Your Greet. Well, she and I talked a lot about having our own little podcast, and we came up with some really dark humor around the title for sure, like laugh till you die or
Nora Smith [00:19:09]:
oh, nice.
Sarah Peterson [00:19:10]:
Laugh till you die, pick your griever. Oh my god. That's really good. Another layer, Nora, that I think is worth talking about for thinking about the supporters who are listening to this is of the grief you must have faced in wondering if I was ever gonna come back. You know? Like, here we are friends for decades, gone through life together, and in some ways, you lost me too.
Nora Smith [00:19:31]:
Oh, that was a hard one. You know, that one came a little bit later, obviously, when the majority of the trauma had settled a bit and I got worried. My grief was deeply had a space of our friendship, the way that it was, might be gone. So, that grief, that was really hard because then it felt like I was losing my best friend.
Sarah Peterson [00:20:00]:
Yeah.
Nora Smith [00:20:01]:
And I knew I you were still alive and you were still here, but you know, what we had was maybe never gonna see the light of day again. And I was worried about that. I had real concerns, which I'm sure, as Griever, you you know, I know you've shared that you were worried you would never laugh again or that you would never
Sarah Peterson [00:20:23]:
yeah.
Nora Smith [00:20:23]:
Have joy.
Sarah Peterson [00:20:24]:
Sometimes I'll see this one picture of myself. It was at a wedding that you and I were both at many years ago, And maybe you even took the picture, but it's just a really lovely picture. I will you know, you find those one pictures of yourself there, like, oh, okay. That's great moment in time. I'll take it. But I look at that picture, and I just look so light and happy. And I remember seeing that picture many times over the last 8 years and thinking, oh, I miss her. Will she ever come back? And, you know, I think the takeaway here, like, as a supporter, as a griever is, like, cling to the cell of hope that pieces of the person will return.
Sarah Peterson [00:21:02]:
Because although I am forever changed, there are some core parts of me that I think have returned, don't you?
Nora Smith [00:21:09]:
Oh, absolutely. You are yourself and yes, we're changed. I think this is part of what makes our relationship honestly even more beautiful. And our friendship has just that added thickness to the layering of all that we are together, I think as friends. Because, yes, we crack up and we go back to the same silly places that we did, that I did. I think it's important to hear as a as a supporter that you might need to hold on to hope that it will come back.
Sarah Peterson [00:21:50]:
Exactly. And sometimes I think you carry the torch not only for yourself, but also for the griever. Like, just that enormous amount of trust that's required, that it will not always be this hard. I don't wanna say, like, standing by your griever will be worth it in the end, but in some ways, like, it is because you you might get parts of that person back that have kept you together for all these years. And you're right, Nora. We have had I mean, we've been telling the same joke for, like, 30 years, some of them. Right? Like, just kidding. Just kidding.
Sarah Peterson [00:22:21]:
I didn't punch you in the face. Just kidding.
Nora Smith [00:22:25]:
But if we're both laughing, what's the harm?
Sarah Peterson [00:22:27]:
Oh, right. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Bye bye. That's another one.
Nora Smith [00:22:31]:
But Oh my gosh.
Sarah Peterson [00:22:32]:
Look at here we are. I've returned to those things, and I promise you that I didn't think that that was possible. And in another episode, Marlys and Dean just talk about kind of holding that hope, holding that trust on behalf of the griever, but also as a supporter for yourself that this is a long and dusty road, and there's a reason beyond being a caring and loving person. But, like, the desire to have this person back in your life to the capacity that they're able makes it worth it. Does that sound terrible? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not a currency, but and it's not like strings attached, but I think we have to scrape up these hopes sometimes in those darkest times.
Nora Smith [00:23:08]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Getting that hanging on, you know? Sometimes Hang on. Hang on. Just hold the course and do what you can. It evolves. We're evolving with all of our life experiences.
Sarah Peterson [00:23:24]:
Yeah. And maybe Nora and I are making this grief experience that we endured together sound really sort of calm and strategic, and I just wanna make sure you guys know that there was nothing like that.
Nora Smith [00:23:38]:
This is all I'm saying. Not, like, pleasantly just I wasn't just like, oh gosh.
Sarah Peterson [00:23:44]:
Sarah, whatever you need. Nora had to arrange her life many times to accommodate me and then would find that I wasn't home or unresponsive to texts or calls. That had to have been really hard.
Nora Smith [00:23:54]:
It was a mess. I mean, I think it for both of us, it was a mess. That's one of the scary things about being a supporter. Well, honestly, the grieever too, but we're just for this perspective. It is a deep dark unknown, and you don't know. I never knew how you were feeling that day, how you would respond to anything that I might put forward that day. The arranging yeah. I would have to do to try to get some time with you and then perhaps you weren't even home or you were I who knows where? So that stuff was really messy.
Sarah Peterson [00:24:34]:
And we sorted it eventually. I mean, like, Nora, I'll never forget, and it must have been in after April because I was actually driving and she was on Bluetooth, and and I think I had missed a time that we were supposed to be together. And I was, like, probably saying, I'm sorry, blah. She's like, you know, I can live with that part, Sarah, but it's the part where I don't hear from you around what's going on. That is so hard. And what can we do so that you just respond to me? Because I need to know what's happening. And, I mean, I think that was driven by, like, physical mental health safety stuff, but also, like, courteous of her time and energy that she has put together a day where we were supposed to be together, and here I blew her off or flaked out or just lost track. So then we came up with a system.
Sarah Peterson [00:25:17]:
1, I'm so relieved Nora said that because that was part of the evolution of us doing this together was her having boundaries and me honoring and respecting her role as one that is allowed to have boundaries too. And granted, you guys, this was months later. It wasn't like day 3. Hey. Why aren't you calling me back? But Yeah. Right. Months later, 5, 6, 7 months later, that this level of behavior on my part was continuing, and there had to be a negotiation around it. So we came up with a system where a certain color heart meant this and another color heart meant that.
Sarah Peterson [00:25:49]:
And that gave her the heads up like, hey. I am physically and mentally breathing alive. Okay. I'm just lost track. I'm lost in my schedule, Or I'm barely breathing. I'm hanging on by a thread and can't can't do it. Come over. Find me.
Sarah Peterson [00:26:05]:
And that worked for us.
Nora Smith [00:26:06]:
Yeah. It was so helpful to just hear anything. I mean, I think that's key giving me, yeah, some temperature of how you were doing that day and whether or not I could make something happen to assist or call. You know, you didn't pick up most of the time. You didn't pick up the phone. So the texting like that little bit of like that color heart was like, okay. Even just because I'm a spiritual person too and I want to be sending the right kind of energy to you, You know? I want to hold you in a certain light. And so that always helped me understand what you needed that day, even if I couldn't physically be there with you.
Sarah Peterson [00:26:52]:
Yeah. I can imagine that that would be really helpful. And so I'm sorry that I keep using the words, the takeaway here, but I I really want the supporters to get what we're saying. Because like I said, it was messy. Like Nora said, it was really messy while we were going through this, but we've learned so much. And so how can we pass this on to you? The takeaway there is as a supporter, look it. I survived Nora asking for what she needed in order to support me, and she survived asking for it. And then it evolved into a more compassionate and successful supportive relationship because we both had what we needed.
Sarah Peterson [00:27:27]:
So as a supporter, you're allowed to say to yourself, obviously, but even to your griever, you know, read the room, like, not day 3. Why don't you call me back? Right. But at some point, you'll know if you know and love this person when it's okay to sort of come up with, hey. I'm trying to support you, and this is what I need to be successful in that. Can you do this with me? Which is essentially the bones of what the conversation that Nora and I had. Yeah. I had other conversations with other supporters who love me that didn't go like that. I think coming from the place of love and not fear in that conversation is so important.
Sarah Peterson [00:28:08]:
Other conversations might have sounded like, well, we lost Marley too, and we can't do this. And all of that is raw and real. But if we go back to the concept of the the grief ring theory, like, I'm at the center in these relationships when I'm experiencing this loss. And in those times, it did not feel like a one way unconditional dumping in of support and dumping out of grief. It felt more like a two way street. And so in those situations, it would have been great to have that person turn the page and lean on their supporters to have the frustration part of it show up. Because, ultimately, I think everybody who knows me and loves me did believe I was really doing my best, so it wasn't a matter of that. And, again, we're just hindsight folks here for you.
Sarah Peterson [00:28:50]:
So you can think about, like, how can I have this conversation that's driven by love? 1st for myself as a supporter and then for my griever. Hey. Here's the story I'm telling myself when you don't pick up for 6 hours and we had plans. I think you're laying dead in a ditch somewhere, and I don't know what to do with myself. So can we alleviate that by this?
Nora Smith [00:29:07]:
Mhmm. Just help me know that that's not the case.
Sarah Peterson [00:29:11]:
Exactly. Okay. So we've got grief groups for grievers. I wish that I could have support groups for supporters because it is that is a big, hard job. And I don't think it's thankless, but I do think it takes an incredible amount of resilience and trust in the process. So if you were leading that group, like, what would be some of the things you just absolutely would want these supporters to hear from you? Because you're kind of an expert now.
Nora Smith [00:29:41]:
Gosh. Okay. So don't give up hope that this will change no matter if you believe it won't or your griever believes it will never change. You can all feel it and still just hold on to that shred of hope. Being the supporter, it's not thankless, but it isn't about you. There's so much that we can do in our lives to help others that really elevates us. It really helps us feel good. And I think in grief support, that's not necessarily the case.
Nora Smith [00:30:18]:
It's not gonna maybe bring you down more, but there is such capacity to hold the space for somebody's sadness, to be involved and in witness to it, that it's not pleasant and it's not for you. And I think that that stepping away and just allowing it to sometimes feel like a job, a task, a position to hold, uphold as supporter that you can then set down. It is something that you can depending on the grief and the time in it, you know, it can waver and weave throughout your life.
Sarah Peterson [00:30:59]:
Yeah. And is there anything, like, when you look back in at all the things of the last 8 years, is there anything you think, oh, I would do that differently next time? Next time. May there not be a next time. Let's just be clear here, folks.
Nora Smith [00:31:11]:
Next time. Mhmm. If I were to do it again.
Sarah Peterson [00:31:15]:
But if you were to do it again, thank you for that correction. I don't know what I was thinking when I said that.
Nora Smith [00:31:20]:
There were times when I did try to it is my nature. I put on the rose colored glasses as often as I can. I look for the silver lining as often as I can, and I think that that was something like, just don't. Don't try to make you feel better. And I learned that this your particular grief was so harsh and so poignant that it quickly taught me. You quickly taught me, honestly. Because I remember very early on, we were in your mother's kitchen and we were there was a small group of us around. You were kind of divvying up jobs to get Marley's service in order.
Nora Smith [00:32:05]:
And there was this and there was that and there was these tasks and you were kinda running through and what it's gonna be like. And I said to you, it's gonna be really nice, Sarah, or it's gonna be really lovely. And you looked up at me and you said, no. It's not. This is the most terrible we should never be planning this. I hate this. Or, you know, something along those lines, but it taught me to, like, oh, yeah. This doesn't have to be pleasant in any way, and we're still gonna do it.
Nora Smith [00:32:37]:
So trying not to fix
Sarah Peterson [00:32:38]:
I think if we could inject each supporter with permission to pause before speaking, there's a lot to be learned in that pause. Even when I have a client who's bereaved coming in, I catch myself almost saying, good to see you. And I'm like, but it's not because the reason why they're here is terrible. So I'll say something like, I'm glad you made it here today, or it's good to have you with me now. Something to where I did create the pause, and there's less room for an argument. I mean, I screwed up all the time like I just did with next time. But to have permission to say, like, it's worth pausing to hear it through the ears of the griever because we're all gonna get wounded in our grief process. Everybody's gonna say something that triggers you, affects you, comes across the wrong way.
Sarah Peterson [00:33:21]:
You know? And as a griever, I think it is upon us to have an abundance of compassion for the people who are also doing their best in this experience. And there is an opportunity to pause and say, like, what will this sound like if through the ears of my griever?
Nora Smith [00:33:35]:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Sarah Peterson [00:33:36]:
Of my griever, what will this sound like, and how can I reformat it as to diminish the trigger, the angst, create a softer landing, etcetera? Mhmm. So, yeah, like, skipping things like God has a plan. There's a reason for everything. Just don't.
Nora Smith [00:33:51]:
Mhmm. Everything happens for a reason. It's pretty tough. I mean,
Sarah Peterson [00:33:54]:
you never said, oh, god. No. Some things just happen that suck, I think.
Nora Smith [00:33:59]:
I mean, people still say it to me. When I explain who you are and what you've done in the world and, like, now this organization I mean, with this organization, Clear Morning, would not exist if that most terrible time in your life. I mean, maybe it would, but you know, here we are. No. And so Right. There is that element. And somebody said to me recently like, isn't that amazing? Everything happens for a reason. And I just that's not appreciated, actually.
Sarah Peterson [00:34:32]:
Right. Because if you think about it, I'd give up the podcast. I have my child back. That's for sure. I would give up every single thing ever, except for which this could be a whole another episode too. Is my youngest child also a product of the loss? And hate to say, like, she's only here because Marley died, and there's a part of that that might be very true because I thought I was done having children. So that is a whole another episode.
Nora Smith [00:34:56]:
That is. That is.
Sarah Peterson [00:34:58]:
When she was born, I I, like, could no longer trade this life for the old life Yeah. Which is weird. Yeah. Right. Whole another episode. I'm glad I see Nora writing it down right now, so that's good. It is a lonely experience grieving no matter who you're grieving because you are the only one who can do it, because you are the only one who had your relationship with the person, and yet you don't have to do it alone. And if you can find even one person to help walk this path with you as a griever, it's everything.
Sarah Peterson [00:35:30]:
And please, if you are in the darkest of times, reach out. As I said in the beginning, call the suicide or crisis hotline. They're there for you 24 hours a day, and there's no shame in getting that help. Call 911. No matter what, you actually are not alone. And if you can have people by your side, if you can open up to allow their support in, it does help. And, you know, as we're coming closer to the more holidays and that sort of thing, we wanna encourage everybody to check out our website and look at our grief supporters manual because it's our best attempt at creating a roadmap for supporters dealing with grievers. So I'm gonna just take the last few seconds here and talk about how grateful I am for your support, Nora, because with every fiber of my being, there's no way I would be where I am today with this organization in my life as a mom, as a friend, as a sister, as a daughter, as all the things all the hats I wear without your love and care and support and your unconditional love, which I feel.
Sarah Peterson [00:36:26]:
And it's just so profound. And I feel so fortunate because I know that there are people in this world that don't know that feeling, and you're somebody who gives it to me, and it's an incredible gift. So thank you.
Nora Smith [00:36:37]:
Oh, you're welcome.
Sarah Peterson [00:36:38]:
And I love you.
Nora Smith [00:36:39]:
And I love you. And I know that you send that out. You had not just me in this big support. You had a lot of people and I know you send that out. You regularly talk about the support of a whole host of people who love you. Yeah. Interjected in their either small or big ways, knowing as a supporter that you make a difference. You may not know it, you may not see it.
Nora Smith [00:37:07]:
And especially if you're not right on the inner circle, but those little things that every one of us can do as a supporter to nudge, to lend a hand in any way that works for you and your supporter and your griever, know that you make a difference.
Sarah Peterson [00:37:27]:
Know that you make a difference, absolutely, in your bones. And back to, like, holding that trust. If it doesn't feel instantly gratifying or you're not instantly certain that what you're doing is the right thing, holding the trust that even the seemingly smallest of movements really make such a difference. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for doing this with me 3 or 4 times. I Until we finally got it right.
Nora Smith [00:37:50]:
You think? I'm really hoping we got it.
Sarah Peterson [00:37:53]:
I think we got it. Thanks, everybody. Talk to you next week.
Sarah Peterson [00:38:00]:
Thank you for joining us on enduring grief, healing practices and true stories of living after loss. We hope today's conversation brought you comfort, understanding, or simply the assurance that you're not alone in your grief. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need to hear it and subscribe as a way to stay connected. We'll be back next week with more personal stories and practical guidance for navigating the complexities of loss. Until then, take care of yourself, and remember, there's no right or wrong way to grieve. You have the freedom to mourn in the way that feels true to you.
