Megan Sayers on Toggl

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This file was generated by Descript

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Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the
podcast where you can experience an

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example customer interview every week.

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You'll discover new perspectives on
different software products and improve

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your customer interview technique.

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As I attempt to do the same

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I'm Jonathan Manuel.

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And this week I'll be interviewing.

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Megan says, Megan is a customer of
toggle toggles, a time-tracking to.

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How are we trying to understand why
Megan purchased, toggle, how she uses it

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and what alternatives she's considered?

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Megan is one half of
the design partnership.

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Make good design, make good design
is on a mission to elevate the brands

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that are doing good in the world.

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Hi, Megan, thank you so much
for, uh, taking the time to,

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uh, to talk to us, um, today.

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Um, uh, before we get started, um, I just
wanted to ask if you have any questions.

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I'm very keen to ask you all about,
um, toggle and why you've decided

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to use that piece of software
for your, for your business.

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Um, so I wanted to always make sure
that you're comfortable with, uh,

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recording this, um, Normally a customer
interview, like this might record

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it to help me so that I don't have
to take notes all the way through.

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And so that I might share with colleagues,
but obviously this is a podcast and

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it's going out to, um, anyone that
panties listening to and learning

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from this experience for both of us.

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So, uh, yeah, you have
comfortable with that.

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Yeah.

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Excellent.

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Um, right.

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So, uh, first question, can you tell
me about, um, how you got to the

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point of needing a time tracking tool?

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I'm assuming that's the main
reason you're using, um, toggle?

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Yeah,

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Megan: well, actually I've always
used one for a really long time now.

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Um, but I didn't always use toggle.

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Um, and it used to be.

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When I was a freelancer or even at
the small agency that I used to work

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at, we needed to sort of keep track of
how long we spent on certain projects.

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Um, in some cases that's just
to monitor things and sort of

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work out how long things take.

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So we know how much to
invoice or charge next time.

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In other cases, it's because
we're charging the client

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so of per the hour per day.

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So it's a good way to keep.

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Um, and then most recently where we
formed a company of two of us, um,

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it became even more important to, uh,
especially at the beginning, keep track

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of how much work we were both doing.

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Um, because initially that's actually how
we were giving up, um, how much we were

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earning and paying, paying ourselves.

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Um, we're sort of moving away from
that model a little bit now, but.

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It was really important to sort of
keep tracks on, on what we were doing.

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Jon: Yeah.

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That makes sense.

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And, um, and so can you walk me through,
um, the, the process of, of, of tracking

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your time and what's, um, output it
is that you want out of the end of it?

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Um, yeah, that, that can be how
you're used to do it as well as

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how you're, you're doing it now.

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Um, so

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Megan: there's two ways we do it.

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One is when I'm working.

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Um, if I know that that client is
one where I need to be literally

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tracking how much time, because
we want to retain it for them.

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So we need to know when
we use that plummet.

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Um, as soon as I start working on
their work, I have the, um, Coco

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program pinned in my Chrome browser
and I open it up and hit record.

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Um, I know that Becky, my business
partner actually does it retrospectively.

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So she goes back in at the end
of the day and just puts in how

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much she's spent on each project.

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Um,

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Jon: that's

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Megan: one way of doing it the other way.

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Is also the other way.

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Yeah.

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I suppose what Becky does is
retrospectively going in sort of pitching

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in, or sometimes it's just like, we're
working for a whole day for that clients.

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We just go back in and
put it in retrospectively.

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Jon: Yeah.

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And was that process
similar with previous tools?

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Um, did you, was there ever a time
where you didn't have a tool, but

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you were tracking your, your time?

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Um,

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Megan: I've been, I had phases where I
happened when I've just been on the road.

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Straight forward contract.

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It really doesn't need any time tracking.

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We've built up that trust with the
client and then interested in seeing

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then you kind of will break down.

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Um, but I used to have.

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Uh, the different products
it's called office time.

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And I used that for about
probably seven or eight years.

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And that was, um, it had an app that
was set up in my toolbar at the bottom.

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Um, and so I was a bit worried about
moving away from that one because then

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having it in the browser instead, but.

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It was, I mean, one day of remembering
that it's not down there and actually

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it's up that I needed to click.

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Um,

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Jon: yeah, I think so.

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And, and so do you have like, um, as a
habit or a muscle memory of, of going

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to a tool when you're starting work?

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Yeah.

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Megan: There have been times when it's
been very muscle memory that a movement.

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It depends.

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It depends on how we're
working at the moment.

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It's getting back to muscle memory because
I'm juggling a few different projects.

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I need to keep track, but more.

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But it there's been times when it's
been so muscle memory that it's like

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a process of put my headphones in,
hit play on Spotify and hit play on

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the, um, local office time product.

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And I actually, at one point used to
think to myself, it'd be so good if

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they could tie those two things together
so that I could just, the moment I hit

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play, it's playing music as well, because
it was just getting me in the zone.

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Jon: All right.

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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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Um, interesting.

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Uh, and, um, so tell me
more about that process.

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You mentioned it's, Tableau's in
a browser tab, you're using it.

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Um, and so did you say that.

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It's always open.

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Um,

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Megan: and,

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Jon: um,

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Megan: and that's just
generally how I work now.

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I sort of have all of my main products
that I use that are online and have

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been pinned, um, across the top.

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Yup.

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They got my email

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Jon: chalet,

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Megan: Oracle calendar.

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Jon: Right.

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So you open the browser and
they're all there waiting.

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And, and when you, um, quick, is it starts
in toggle, um, is that, is that the only

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thing you do or do you enter anything
about the work that you're about to do.

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Yeah, you have

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Megan: to, um, and I have to snap
sometimes if it's something I really want

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to make sure we like what we were doing,
then you could have a little field where

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you can put in exactly what you're doing.

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I don't do that very often, but
it's just, it's something I'm usual.

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Um, in case we questioned at some point

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Jon: or client.

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So the main thing you're tracking is
that you're working for a particular

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client in that period of time.

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Megan: Yeah.

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And so one of our clients that we're
working on in particular, one of

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the projects so that, um, they can
see sort of how much time is being

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spent on each of their projects.

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Jon: Got it.

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And.

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And then there were, see you've hit start.

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Um, and then you're going on to doing
the work that you'll be building for.

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Um, and just give us a little
overview of what the, what sort of

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work is that or what you're using.

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It's a laptop based work.

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I take it.

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Um,

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Megan: yes.

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So then I will drink the crime window
and I'll get on with designing in.

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Um, or whatever reading or something.

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Um, yeah, and then I'll just
leave it running until I stop now.

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I used to be very good at then
remembering to stop it and office

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time used to actually, I didn't, I
used to do some sort of reminder, uh,

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perhaps if I've stopped in perhaps
a stepped away from my computer.

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I've come back and it would pop
up and say, you're still timing.

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Um, and that would be really handy.

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Uh, total doesn't do that, but
I do think that I'm probably not

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using toggle as what, as a kid do.

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I know when we downloaded it.

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Um, but when we first started
using it, I felt like they were.

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The phase of a lots of
development and product releases.

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And we're probably haven't kept up
with all of the beaches and things.

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I think maybe it does have a desktop
app, but I haven't downloaded anything.

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It's one of those things where you
think you should look into it, but

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it's just time and it's working fine.

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And I'd rather just not think about it.

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Jon: Yeah.

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And so did he, is it a concern that you're
not, um, that, that you might fail to

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press the stop button when you finish

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working?

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Megan: Just, I think sometimes it, you
know, to you and says you've been working

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on this for 18 hours on your account.

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It doesn't actually say
that, but it should.

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That'd be funny.

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I'd like that.

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Jon: But,

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Megan: you know, you can just see in
the timeline that you've gone way off.

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And usually I can just,
you can just send editor.

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I know we'll probably stopped, but
X time we don't have to be really

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precise with the planning of things.

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It's just good just to keep track.

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So it doesn't matter too much.

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Jon: Yeah.

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And, uh, and so what
typical periods are you.

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Timing, um, uh, or we're
looking at a morning and then an

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afternoon or smaller chunks or,

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Megan: yeah.

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Um, warning sometimes I've
just got whole day in.

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Um, sometimes if I just I'm really
jumping around, I might be having a

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day where I'm jumping around the dots.

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I mean, that case, I just literally.

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When I, you know, when I finished on
something or say I'm by myself, suddenly

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working on something else for another
client, I wasn't expecting to, I, as

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long as that's the client where it's a
billable thing, then I will just quickly

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sort of put in that I've been working
on it for half an hour and then leave

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it running, um, whilst I'm working on
it, just because otherwise I've, I find

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that where we've got these returns.

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Um, agreements I'm at risk of
working and not getting paid for it,

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because if I don't remember, it's
just little thing here and there.

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Um, it's good to put it
in whilst I think of it.

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Jon: Yeah.

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See that.

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Um, and is there anything
special that you do at the end

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of the day or the end of a week?

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Uh,

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Megan: No, but we use it to report
if that's what you're imagining.

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Um, we, at the end of each month,
we will do a report, but that's

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only for one of our clients.

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I don't think they even look at it,
but it was just, uh, not, uh, what's

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the word, the nice thing to do for them
so they can see, um, the breakdown of.

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What we've been doing for them and what's
costing them lots and that kind of thing.

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Right.

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Jon: And that's a client with
multiple projects where more than

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one of you are working on it.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Megan: I think it's really
interesting on that.

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I really liked looking
at the reports as well.

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It's very interesting.

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Yeah.

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Jon: What is it about their quotes
that makes the next interesting.

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Megan: Yeah.

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On Toko, uh, just officially.

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Um, displayed.

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So just a nice play chart.

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Um, there's different ways you
can have it, um, export it, but it

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breaks it down sort of what I've been
working on, what Becky's been working

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on, how long, different projects
Turk, and you can really do not

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realize how long something's taken.

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And it's very interesting to see overall

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Jon: how long it's taken.

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Yep.

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And what, what are the steps involved in
producing one of those, um, uh, reports.

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Megan: You want me to look at it?

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Or should I tell you these steps?

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Or do you want me to
see if I can remember?

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Jon: Uh, if it's, if it's
in front, if it's British VZ

00:14:25.106 --> 00:14:27.236
crispy, that's my dog barking.

00:14:27.236 --> 00:14:28.766
Sorry about that.

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We both got all okay.

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Both my dogs are going.

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So you were going to have
a look at the reports.

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Um,

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And only if it's a, if it's really
easy to tell in front of you, but, um,

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Megan: um, so there's sort of like a
panel with reports and I just click it.

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And, um, then there's some different
views that you can choose from sort of

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like a summary or detailed on Wiki view.

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And you can sort of,
there's lots of filters.

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You can filter it like project
team member, or client, or.

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What should I use?

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Jon: Yeah.

00:15:30.176 --> 00:15:30.356
Megan: Yeah.

00:15:30.366 --> 00:15:33.336
What do I usually do a summary report?

00:15:33.366 --> 00:15:35.046
Cause that's the one which is more visual.

00:15:35.706 --> 00:15:44.256
Um, and then I sort of select the client
and then the timeframe, um, it has a

00:15:44.256 --> 00:15:46.286
really nice way of showing timeframes.

00:15:46.336 --> 00:15:47.166
It has like a calendar.

00:15:48.321 --> 00:15:53.061
And so you can do your usual
selects two points in a calendar,

00:15:53.571 --> 00:15:55.901
or it's got some sort of shortcuts.

00:15:55.901 --> 00:15:59.571
So today, yesterday, this week,
last week, this month, and they're

00:15:59.571 --> 00:16:01.371
really helpful if some of that.

00:16:02.541 --> 00:16:09.141
Um, so once I've done that and I've
got what timeframe I want, um, there's

00:16:09.231 --> 00:16:14.181
a download button and it just lets
you download a PDF or a CSV file.

00:16:15.051 --> 00:16:15.291
Jon: Yeah.

00:16:17.011 --> 00:16:20.701
And then you see send
that PDF to your client.

00:16:21.871 --> 00:16:22.081
Yeah.

00:16:22.531 --> 00:16:24.301
And do you store that yourself?

00:16:24.421 --> 00:16:30.181
Um, well, we use it
internally for anything or no.

00:16:31.531 --> 00:16:33.781
Megan: I mean, you should be in
a hurry when I do that bit, I'm

00:16:33.781 --> 00:16:35.581
just sending the invoice slightly.

00:16:36.181 --> 00:16:39.361
It will probably be in
free agent, somewhat.

00:16:41.076 --> 00:16:43.596
Well, I've uploaded it, but
I don't want to safe in it.

00:16:45.156 --> 00:16:45.396
Jon: Right.

00:16:45.546 --> 00:16:50.616
So you send it with, sorry,
you send it in the same email.

00:16:52.506 --> 00:16:52.746
Megan: Yeah.

00:16:52.776 --> 00:16:54.606
But I send the invoice by attach there.

00:16:58.656 --> 00:16:58.776
Jon: Yeah.

00:16:59.946 --> 00:17:00.696
That makes sense.

00:17:01.356 --> 00:17:08.946
Um, and so, uh, you feel it's doing
everything you want to contract.

00:17:13.941 --> 00:17:14.901
Megan: Yeah, I think so.

00:17:15.201 --> 00:17:22.341
Um, but it has a whole nother
set of features, um, is toggled.

00:17:22.371 --> 00:17:28.431
Now I've got a few different products
and we'll talk all of, so we use toggled

00:17:28.461 --> 00:17:31.551
track, um, but also use topical plan.

00:17:32.571 --> 00:17:35.601
Um, do you want me to talk about both.

00:17:37.431 --> 00:17:42.351
Jon: I'm interested in what, what maybe
if we, first of all, back up a little bit.

00:17:42.621 --> 00:17:49.131
So, um, when did you decide to
start using toggle and what,

00:17:49.701 --> 00:17:51.771
what prompted you to, to do that?

00:17:51.771 --> 00:17:55.941
Was it maybe for plan or was it
for track it at that point in time?

00:17:56.961 --> 00:17:58.341
Megan: It was for track originally.

00:17:58.521 --> 00:18:04.551
And it was when we started
our business last year.

00:18:07.791 --> 00:18:10.221
Jon: Do you remember why you chose toggle?

00:18:12.171 --> 00:18:12.711
Um,

00:18:14.571 --> 00:18:18.081
Megan: so I was using office time,
but Becky, my business partner didn't

00:18:18.081 --> 00:18:23.601
have that one and I think I'd paid
a one-off payment for it years ago.

00:18:24.081 --> 00:18:26.721
And so I wasn't paying for it.

00:18:26.721 --> 00:18:29.751
And when we first started our
business, we just wanted to

00:18:29.751 --> 00:18:31.131
keep overheads really, really.

00:18:32.196 --> 00:18:38.616
Um, so I was really conscious of those
different subscriptions to things.

00:18:39.156 --> 00:18:44.346
Um, I think toggle don't
think it was that expensive.

00:18:44.346 --> 00:18:49.776
It was obviously one that wasn't hugely
expensive, but we will say there was

00:18:49.776 --> 00:18:52.836
another one chat, but I don't think any

00:18:52.836 --> 00:18:53.316
Jon: of them.

00:18:56.061 --> 00:18:56.511
Megan: Oh, sorry.

00:18:56.511 --> 00:18:57.201
I missed the step.

00:18:57.201 --> 00:19:01.911
So I had it, but when we, when I said
to Becky that she should also get

00:19:01.911 --> 00:19:03.591
it, it was looking really expensive.

00:19:04.251 --> 00:19:09.741
So, and we compared it to toggle and
actually took all, looked like it was

00:19:10.341 --> 00:19:14.211
now a much, much better product than this
sort of old product I was using before.

00:19:15.021 --> 00:19:19.491
Um, and it, I have to say.

00:19:20.511 --> 00:19:24.111
It's very shallow, but the
marketing on taco is really lovely.

00:19:24.891 --> 00:19:30.951
And the platform itself is really,
really beautifully designed.

00:19:31.131 --> 00:19:33.861
And for us we're designers,
we really appreciate that.

00:19:34.671 --> 00:19:41.841
Um, and it was, I think that was a bit
of a deciding factor actually, but also

00:19:41.841 --> 00:19:43.351
had to do everything it needed to do.

00:19:45.711 --> 00:19:46.131
Jon: Right.

00:19:47.511 --> 00:19:48.591
I can definitely see that.

00:19:48.651 --> 00:19:54.261
Um, and, uh, do you, do you remember
how you found out that toggle

00:19:54.711 --> 00:19:59.451
existed at to even, um, find it?

00:20:03.441 --> 00:20:08.121
Megan: I need the name and I
suspect I knew the name because

00:20:09.261 --> 00:20:10.871
I had seen some of their design.

00:20:11.766 --> 00:20:17.196
Like on some of the design platforms,
I think maybe they had done some really

00:20:17.196 --> 00:20:26.376
lovely illustrations and I'm quite up to
date like cool 3d rendered illustrations.

00:20:26.496 --> 00:20:29.586
So it probably pops up a few times when
I was doing some research for other

00:20:29.586 --> 00:20:33.366
stuff, but that I didn't tweak that, that
I didn't know what they did from that.

00:20:33.936 --> 00:20:38.676
It was only then when we started working
together, I said to Becky, well, I've

00:20:38.676 --> 00:20:40.116
got office time, but you'll need to do.

00:20:41.286 --> 00:20:42.036
The dominator.

00:20:42.606 --> 00:20:45.396
Do you want to have a quick look and
see if there's any other options?

00:20:45.396 --> 00:20:49.236
And she, she did a bit of research and
came back with a few options and toggle

00:20:49.236 --> 00:20:52.416
was the one that jumped out at us.

00:20:52.866 --> 00:20:55.016
And then that was when I
made the connection that I

00:20:55.086 --> 00:20:56.526
sort of heard of them before.

00:21:00.636 --> 00:21:01.086
Sorry.

00:21:01.236 --> 00:21:05.646
I think in the past toggle had sort of
come up and I'd dismissed it because

00:21:05.646 --> 00:21:06.696
I don't think it was very good.

00:21:07.386 --> 00:21:09.246
Um, but it's improved.

00:21:11.646 --> 00:21:11.946
Jon: Right.

00:21:13.176 --> 00:21:17.886
Do you remember where you may have
seen those examples of have designed

00:21:17.886 --> 00:21:21.306
any specific platforms or their forum?

00:21:21.666 --> 00:21:21.996
I don't know.

00:21:22.986 --> 00:21:25.476
Megan: I expect it would have
been on a website called dribble.

00:21:26.046 --> 00:21:26.256
Right.

00:21:27.156 --> 00:21:32.646
Um, which is, I don't know if you
know it, but it's a design website.

00:21:34.476 --> 00:21:37.226
Design is upload their designs to it.

00:21:40.866 --> 00:21:41.106
Jon: Yeah.

00:21:41.526 --> 00:21:41.706
Yeah.

00:21:41.766 --> 00:21:44.196
I've come across it a few, few times.

00:21:44.196 --> 00:21:47.376
I've certainly seen it over
the shoulder of different

00:21:47.376 --> 00:21:49.026
designers that I've worked with.

00:21:49.236 --> 00:21:54.756
Um, and, and so, uh, as do you
go, do you go to dribble often?

00:21:55.086 --> 00:21:58.356
Um, yeah, quite,

00:21:58.516 --> 00:21:59.226
Megan: quite often.

00:22:00.036 --> 00:22:05.286
Not as much as I used to, but
yeah, it's a bit of a staple.

00:22:06.741 --> 00:22:10.221
Driveline Pinterest design research.

00:22:10.581 --> 00:22:10.821
Jon: Yeah.

00:22:12.201 --> 00:22:12.441
Okay.

00:22:12.471 --> 00:22:17.931
So, so when you're in research or
mode or looking for some inspiration,

00:22:18.981 --> 00:22:20.991
so could that be daily or weekly?

00:22:23.181 --> 00:22:24.141
Um,

00:22:27.651 --> 00:22:28.761
Megan: probably weekly.

00:22:29.601 --> 00:22:29.931
Jon: Yeah.

00:22:30.471 --> 00:22:32.571
Or maybe is something
that prompts you to use.

00:22:34.221 --> 00:22:34.671
Yeah, it's

00:22:34.671 --> 00:22:40.371
Megan: usually triple is usually at
the start of the project, um, that we

00:22:40.371 --> 00:22:42.351
would spend quite a lot of time looking.

00:22:42.771 --> 00:22:46.251
And then maybe a few points during
the project I've been driven today,

00:22:46.251 --> 00:22:51.121
actually, because I was researching,
um, some UI patterns and I wanted

00:22:51.121 --> 00:22:52.281
to see what other people are doing.

00:22:54.861 --> 00:22:55.311
Jon: Okay.

00:22:56.031 --> 00:23:01.071
So you mentioned that you think
you probably first noticed or saw

00:23:01.071 --> 00:23:02.271
some of the illustrations from.

00:23:04.986 --> 00:23:07.806
Um, could there have been anywhere
else that you might've seen it?

00:23:08.796 --> 00:23:09.846
Um, or come across it?

00:23:11.816 --> 00:23:12.536
Megan: I might've seen it.

00:23:13.836 --> 00:23:13.996
Jon: I've

00:23:19.626 --> 00:23:20.226
seen them.

00:23:26.121 --> 00:23:29.841
Megan: No, I would see, I don't
think they would come through

00:23:29.841 --> 00:23:31.941
on like Facebook or Instagram.

00:23:34.146 --> 00:23:38.016
Maybe Instagram design, Instagram account.

00:23:39.606 --> 00:23:39.906
Jon: Got it.

00:23:40.866 --> 00:23:43.626
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:23:43.746 --> 00:23:53.046
Um, and so, um, whereabouts
talk about, um, uh, to-go plan.

00:23:53.046 --> 00:23:58.176
See you, um, actually just
before we get to that, your.

00:24:00.201 --> 00:24:05.781
You've learned about a toggle and, um,
and you're even reviewing different

00:24:05.781 --> 00:24:07.761
time tracking tools with Becky.

00:24:08.571 --> 00:24:12.291
Um, it jumped out at you at the
point when you're about you're

00:24:12.291 --> 00:24:14.061
making the decision together.

00:24:14.151 --> 00:24:19.161
I seem to whether or not this was
going to be the one that you'd buy.

00:24:19.161 --> 00:24:22.041
Was there anything that you're
unsure about or that was unclear?

00:24:22.461 --> 00:24:26.631
Um, yeah, I think.

00:24:30.081 --> 00:24:35.481
Megan: I was aware that I was very tied
to office time, but it was a very sort of,

00:24:36.411 --> 00:24:41.811
it felt quite antiquated, but it did have
beaches that I was really used to using.

00:24:41.811 --> 00:24:44.211
And I was worried that chocolate
wouldn't have these features.

00:24:44.871 --> 00:24:48.231
Um, like the one I told you about
earlier, where if you've been away

00:24:48.231 --> 00:24:52.761
from your computer for a while,
it sort of says to you, um, do

00:24:52.761 --> 00:24:53.961
you want to keep recording or not?

00:24:55.101 --> 00:24:55.581
But.

00:24:56.406 --> 00:25:02.196
I felt like introducing that really
old tool to Becky and sort of forcing

00:25:02.196 --> 00:25:06.756
her to use it when there seems to be
so much nicer products out there, it

00:25:06.756 --> 00:25:07.116
Jon: was

00:25:08.856 --> 00:25:11.016
Megan: probably not, I don't know.

00:25:11.016 --> 00:25:12.096
I didn't feel good about doing that.

00:25:12.096 --> 00:25:15.966
So I wanted to look into the other
options, especially because of the price.

00:25:16.386 --> 00:25:22.476
Um, and then I can assume tremendous,
really struggling to find out

00:25:22.746 --> 00:25:23.826
from the products we were looking.

00:25:25.011 --> 00:25:26.991
Whether or not, they have
the features that we wanted.

00:25:27.771 --> 00:25:34.551
Um, but I think in the end we did the
free trial, which is really helpful, but

00:25:34.611 --> 00:25:37.731
it would have been nice if I could have
found that information out on the website

00:25:37.941 --> 00:25:42.531
first, because when you do a free trial
where you sort of invest a certain amounts

00:25:42.541 --> 00:25:46.551
of time and filling in your data and that
kind of thing, getting it all set up.

00:25:48.711 --> 00:25:51.801
A bit quite into it then.

00:25:53.571 --> 00:25:53.991
Jon: Definitely.

00:25:54.861 --> 00:25:55.071
Yeah.

00:25:55.311 --> 00:25:55.701
Maybe.

00:25:56.551 --> 00:26:02.391
And do you remember what those speeches
were, but you want to know that

00:26:07.291 --> 00:26:11.311
Megan: it's probably mostly that sort
of use, but ease of use at the timer?

00:26:12.186 --> 00:26:17.796
But I also just found that some of
the other things we looked at were,

00:26:19.386 --> 00:26:20.016
Jon: um,

00:26:21.366 --> 00:26:24.096
Megan: sort of probably
over-engineered for what we needed.

00:26:25.296 --> 00:26:28.686
Jon: Um, so

00:26:29.346 --> 00:26:31.686
Megan: that was more sort of
like not too many features.

00:26:31.686 --> 00:26:33.426
It was probably one of
the things rather than.

00:26:34.566 --> 00:26:38.566
Um, specifically is so it's just
the timing and the reporting

00:26:38.586 --> 00:26:40.116
at that time we wanted to

00:26:41.226 --> 00:26:41.766
Jon: use.

00:26:42.966 --> 00:26:44.006
Megan: And I suppose

00:26:44.016 --> 00:26:44.226
Jon: the,

00:26:46.476 --> 00:26:51.186
Megan: yeah, actually the, having to
two accounts, being able to see two

00:26:51.186 --> 00:26:54.066
people's timings, everything in one place.

00:26:55.161 --> 00:26:56.331
Um, what's

00:26:56.331 --> 00:26:57.081
Jon: really important.

00:26:59.271 --> 00:27:02.481
Yeah, definitely see how that makes sense.

00:27:02.691 --> 00:27:05.331
And do you remember any of the other
products that you were looking at?

00:27:06.771 --> 00:27:07.401
Can't remember?

00:27:08.871 --> 00:27:09.171
No.

00:27:10.911 --> 00:27:11.901
I think, um,

00:27:15.051 --> 00:27:20.031
Megan: rescue time is another one
which we do actually use, but it's

00:27:20.691 --> 00:27:23.711
different and you could probably
use it in the same way, but.

00:27:27.741 --> 00:27:28.791
Jon: Do you use that as well?

00:27:29.871 --> 00:27:30.621
So

00:27:32.331 --> 00:27:37.491
Megan: we rescue time because we
both work, um, quite flexible hours.

00:27:38.391 --> 00:27:43.851
We wanted to in the first year of working
together to figure out how much we're both

00:27:43.851 --> 00:27:51.051
working, um, and rescue time, basically
just monitors, sort of what you're up to

00:27:51.111 --> 00:27:52.401
when your computer and how productive.

00:27:53.481 --> 00:27:59.061
But we don't, um, use
that in a, in a team way.

00:27:59.091 --> 00:28:01.401
So we don't make that
visible to each other.

00:28:01.401 --> 00:28:02.901
Cause I don't really agree with that.

00:28:03.531 --> 00:28:08.661
Um, it's more of a personal, um, way
of keeping track of how productive

00:28:08.661 --> 00:28:13.311
you're being and being able to just
report a bit on how many hours I've

00:28:13.311 --> 00:28:18.801
worked, that I've been at my computer
using programs that are work programs.

00:28:21.166 --> 00:28:21.436
Jon: Yeah.

00:28:21.616 --> 00:28:22.156
Yeah, sure.

00:28:22.186 --> 00:28:26.356
So, uh, so you've rescued time to sort
of give you an understanding of the

00:28:26.356 --> 00:28:30.916
way that you're using the machine and
when you're, when you're working, um,

00:28:30.946 --> 00:28:34.996
which you can choose to share with
your business partner or, or not.

00:28:34.996 --> 00:28:37.546
And just to help understand
different working patterns,

00:28:38.116 --> 00:28:40.276
but toggles the place where.

00:28:41.061 --> 00:28:45.381
You're sharing deliberately with
each other, how much you're working

00:28:45.381 --> 00:28:46.881
on different, different things.

00:28:47.871 --> 00:28:48.051
Yeah.

00:28:49.731 --> 00:28:52.281
Megan: We're not sort of, let's
do like chunks of time where

00:28:52.281 --> 00:28:55.131
we haven't trapped anything and
toggle, we don't track everything.

00:28:56.151 --> 00:28:57.921
We started off tracking everything.

00:28:58.551 --> 00:29:04.371
Um, but because I can't remember why
now we just wanted to see how much

00:29:04.401 --> 00:29:07.131
we were interested to see how much
time we were spending on various

00:29:07.131 --> 00:29:08.721
things like marketing and this.

00:29:10.206 --> 00:29:12.126
Um, we stopped in after a while.

00:29:12.126 --> 00:29:13.806
Cause it's just pretty much,

00:29:15.096 --> 00:29:20.046
Jon: yeah, I can definitely
see how that would be the case.

00:29:20.106 --> 00:29:28.866
And, um, is there, uh, is there anything
you would like you wish toggle might do?

00:29:29.136 --> 00:29:32.376
Um, uh, that it doesn't do

00:29:35.886 --> 00:29:36.216
well,

00:29:38.046 --> 00:29:43.791
Megan: um, Product which they haven't
fully integrated it, integrated them.

00:29:44.331 --> 00:29:44.511
Right.

00:29:44.541 --> 00:29:51.081
Um, or if they have, I haven't, we'd
already got set up using toggle track in a

00:29:51.231 --> 00:29:56.781
particular way and way toggle plan works.

00:29:56.811 --> 00:29:59.121
We have to, we changed the
way we'd set everything up.

00:29:59.901 --> 00:30:05.301
Um, so we haven't managed to like
seamlessly integrate the two features

00:30:05.361 --> 00:30:07.851
and it would be just nice if these
features were all part of the same.

00:30:09.276 --> 00:30:12.546
Um, because it's a bit frustrating or not.

00:30:13.836 --> 00:30:16.716
Um, and the other thing is

00:30:17.346 --> 00:30:18.036
Jon: the

00:30:19.506 --> 00:30:21.246
Megan: lack of keep saying, oh, you, what?

00:30:21.246 --> 00:30:22.686
You've stepped away from your computer.

00:30:23.466 --> 00:30:25.416
Do you still wants the time, this or not?

00:30:25.476 --> 00:30:26.466
That's really helpful.

00:30:27.246 --> 00:30:35.616
Um, and I don't know if it has, um, I
don't know what the technical word is for

00:30:35.616 --> 00:30:36.636
it, but when, you know, when you have.

00:30:37.371 --> 00:30:41.781
And on your Mac, there's lots of
icons at the top, the very top of

00:30:41.781 --> 00:30:50.631
the screen, um, and some products and
it will control up there so you can

00:30:51.141 --> 00:30:52.851
stop and start things from up there.

00:30:53.751 --> 00:30:54.621
And it doesn't do that.

00:30:54.651 --> 00:30:58.371
And that's a guess
because it's not a nature

00:30:59.541 --> 00:30:59.841
Jon: that,

00:31:01.071 --> 00:31:02.661
Megan: um, it's just
running in the browser.

00:31:04.011 --> 00:31:08.841
Uh, but that would be nice if it, yeah.

00:31:08.991 --> 00:31:14.391
If there was somewhere I could
just quickly switch on and off

00:31:14.691 --> 00:31:18.591
climbing rather than having to
go to the tab in my browser.

00:31:19.281 --> 00:31:19.581
Jon: Yeah.

00:31:23.511 --> 00:31:23.771
Megan: Epic.

00:31:23.771 --> 00:31:24.711
You ever heard this really?

00:31:24.891 --> 00:31:27.861
Like going, oh, we've got
that, but you're not using it.

00:31:29.091 --> 00:31:29.361
Yeah.

00:31:29.511 --> 00:31:30.771
We're not using it if it does fit.

00:31:31.521 --> 00:31:31.761
Jon: Yeah.

00:31:32.901 --> 00:31:33.501
Yeah, that's okay.

00:31:34.761 --> 00:31:35.391
It happens.

00:31:35.481 --> 00:31:39.741
And so it's like, can you tell me
a bit more about, um, this, uh,

00:31:40.701 --> 00:31:46.101
frustration, lack of maybe, um,
integration between plan and track and

00:31:46.101 --> 00:31:49.971
what, what, what is it, why do you want
them to integrate, what do they, what

00:31:49.971 --> 00:31:52.071
does plan do for you and on top of,

00:31:53.331 --> 00:31:57.861
Megan: so you plan, um, we go
through phases of using it lots

00:31:57.861 --> 00:31:58.941
and they're not using it at all.

00:31:58.941 --> 00:32:01.091
And it just depends on the
type of work we're doing.

00:32:02.091 --> 00:32:05.781
If we've got holidays and complex
complicated sort of schedules to

00:32:05.781 --> 00:32:09.591
try and organize or work, we've
got another freelancer working

00:32:09.591 --> 00:32:11.061
with us, that kind of thing.

00:32:11.811 --> 00:32:13.341
I'm trying to figure out.

00:32:13.371 --> 00:32:17.751
If we've actually got time to do
everything we've said, we're going to do.

00:32:18.411 --> 00:32:26.691
Um, it's basically just a calendar and you
put blocks in for each project and task.

00:32:26.991 --> 00:32:28.851
You could go as detailed
as you wanted, but with.

00:32:30.006 --> 00:32:33.666
Just sort of blocking out, like we're
working on that, that day and that day

00:32:34.386 --> 00:32:38.526
kind of thing, which I really like to
do when I've got the time to do it.

00:32:38.526 --> 00:32:43.116
Cause it brings your blood pressure down
a bit, seeing it all just planned out.

00:32:43.866 --> 00:32:50.106
Um, but the annoying thing is, is
so in, in plan you can, on those

00:32:50.106 --> 00:32:54.306
blocks, you can hit play on the block.

00:32:54.726 --> 00:32:59.916
So I could just live in planet
I wanted and just go, um, Yeah.

00:32:59.976 --> 00:33:03.096
I plan to work on that and
yeah, I'm working on it.

00:33:03.456 --> 00:33:04.146
Hit play on it.

00:33:04.836 --> 00:33:05.706
Does that make sense?

00:33:05.826 --> 00:33:06.036
Yeah.

00:33:07.506 --> 00:33:11.286
So sort of tracking that I'm working
on the thing I had planned to work on.

00:33:12.426 --> 00:33:18.696
Um, but the annoying thing is that the
way we've got it set up, isn't connected

00:33:18.696 --> 00:33:21.186
to the projects that we've got set up.

00:33:22.521 --> 00:33:23.181
Total track.

00:33:24.201 --> 00:33:24.891
Jon: Um,

00:33:26.301 --> 00:33:29.271
Megan: and I seem to remember when we
set it all up, when we started using

00:33:29.271 --> 00:33:32.961
plan, I could see that, I don't know.

00:33:32.961 --> 00:33:36.171
That was a different way of
setting your projects up basically.

00:33:36.441 --> 00:33:36.831
Um,

00:33:39.021 --> 00:33:39.711
Jon: and

00:33:41.361 --> 00:33:43.881
Megan: we, I don't know when
we're not using it in there.

00:33:45.666 --> 00:33:48.576
In the way that means that we
can do that with you today.

00:33:49.566 --> 00:33:55.266
And it seems like they obviously just
felt like too much work to do or change

00:33:55.266 --> 00:33:57.966
the way we're working so that it does was

00:33:57.966 --> 00:33:59.256
Jon: that yeah.

00:33:59.616 --> 00:34:04.236
I can see how that must feel really
disjointed, especially if you want to

00:34:04.236 --> 00:34:05.826
sometimes work one way and some time.

00:34:07.806 --> 00:34:08.106
Yeah.

00:34:10.106 --> 00:34:10.406
Megan: Yeah.

00:34:10.896 --> 00:34:11.346
I can see it.

00:34:11.346 --> 00:34:13.926
It's a difficult challenge to solve.

00:34:14.316 --> 00:34:14.706
Jon: Um,

00:34:17.216 --> 00:34:21.876
Megan: it feels like, and I think
the thing with toggle is that one of

00:34:21.876 --> 00:34:26.886
those products that in recent years
have obviously been doing a lot of.

00:34:28.521 --> 00:34:33.021
So development, releasing new features
and it feels like the products continually

00:34:33.021 --> 00:34:36.021
and breathing and evolving, which is nice.

00:34:36.651 --> 00:34:40.821
So there's this kind of sense that there
probably is the features that I want if I

00:34:41.271 --> 00:34:44.901
took the time to dig into it a bit more.

00:34:45.741 --> 00:34:47.901
And that's only in the last
year that we've been using it.

00:34:51.351 --> 00:34:51.771
Jon: All right.

00:34:52.071 --> 00:34:59.631
Um, and so a hypothetical question
for you, what would you do if

00:34:59.631 --> 00:35:02.241
you couldn't use toggle anymore?

00:35:02.691 --> 00:35:05.421
For some reason, why

00:35:05.421 --> 00:35:07.911
Megan: would I use office time?

00:35:08.871 --> 00:35:09.171
Jon: Yeah.

00:35:10.461 --> 00:35:13.821
Megan: When I've just looked off his
time's website and I can see that they

00:35:13.821 --> 00:35:16.341
have now updated, they don't look good.

00:35:17.091 --> 00:35:18.111
Old fashioned anymore.

00:35:18.171 --> 00:35:21.621
So maybe that would be an option,
but it definitely expensive.

00:35:22.521 --> 00:35:22.791
Jon: Yeah.

00:35:23.811 --> 00:35:24.031
Yeah.

00:35:25.611 --> 00:35:25.911
Okay.

00:35:25.941 --> 00:35:26.451
Thank you.

00:35:26.451 --> 00:35:28.011
So a final question.

00:35:28.551 --> 00:35:33.441
Um, is there anything else you
feel I should know about Toggl

00:35:33.441 --> 00:35:35.031
and your experience with it?

00:35:35.241 --> 00:35:37.551
Um, by the way, your business uses it.

00:35:45.171 --> 00:35:45.531
I

00:35:45.531 --> 00:35:48.981
Megan: would just say that of all the
products that I thought bought pending

00:35:48.981 --> 00:35:58.551
my browser, but you should be, it's just
really nice and clean and happy colors.

00:35:58.581 --> 00:35:59.871
It feels really happy.

00:36:00.711 --> 00:36:00.831
Yeah.

00:36:01.701 --> 00:36:04.071
That makes a big difference to me.

00:36:04.851 --> 00:36:07.821
Um, I don't feel like it's a chore.

00:36:07.851 --> 00:36:08.541
It feels like fun.

00:36:13.371 --> 00:36:14.901
Jon: Yeah, great.

00:36:15.321 --> 00:36:17.001
I'm sure the team it's over.

00:36:17.001 --> 00:36:18.921
We're very, very pleased to hear that.

00:36:19.941 --> 00:36:22.911
Thank you so much for your time, Megan.

00:36:23.271 --> 00:36:28.611
Um, it would be great to, uh, hear
a little bit more about you and your

00:36:28.611 --> 00:36:33.741
business and, um, what, what you do, um,
which provide a little bit of context for

00:36:33.871 --> 00:36:35.301
the rest of this conversation as well.

00:36:35.421 --> 00:36:38.541
Um, so, um, the name of your company,

00:36:39.786 --> 00:36:40.566
Megan: It's make good.

00:36:41.616 --> 00:36:49.716
We'll make good design and, um, with
a small design partnership and we do,

00:36:49.836 --> 00:36:54.786
um, design for, we say of any, any
business organization that's making

00:36:54.786 --> 00:36:56.856
good things happen in the world.

00:36:56.856 --> 00:37:06.656
So, um, we focus sort of on everything
from brand, um, brand strategy, three.

00:37:07.746 --> 00:37:12.936
Um, digital design, so websites
and digital products to

00:37:12.936 --> 00:37:14.166
apps and that kind of thing.

00:37:14.946 --> 00:37:22.476
Um, yeah, I know there's two of
us and we also have, um, the UX

00:37:22.476 --> 00:37:26.676
designer who works with us as a con
on contract and, uh, a couple of

00:37:26.676 --> 00:37:32.856
brand strategists and, um, a couple
of web developers that we work with.

00:37:32.856 --> 00:37:34.146
So we've got like a little quarter.

00:37:35.331 --> 00:37:37.881
Um, uh, regular collaborators.

00:37:38.451 --> 00:37:43.101
Um, but essentially it's, it's just
the two of us who actually, uh,

00:37:43.311 --> 00:37:44.811
sort of run the company together.

00:37:47.771 --> 00:37:49.611
Jon: Where can we find out more about you?

00:37:51.021 --> 00:37:56.061
Megan: Um, it's on our website
is make good design.co.uk.

00:38:00.231 --> 00:38:02.601
Jon: You on Twitter or Instagram and

00:38:02.601 --> 00:38:07.131
Megan: say, we do have a Twitter account,
but we've been too busy to use it.

00:38:07.761 --> 00:38:11.541
Um, we're on LinkedIn and
we're on Instagram as well,

00:38:11.541 --> 00:38:14.151
but again, too busy to use it.

00:38:15.831 --> 00:38:17.061
LinkedIn is linked.

00:38:17.181 --> 00:38:19.101
LinkedIn is a good place
to connect, actually.

00:38:19.311 --> 00:38:19.491
Yeah.

00:38:19.581 --> 00:38:19.701
Yeah.

00:38:19.731 --> 00:38:19.821
Um,

00:38:21.021 --> 00:38:22.791
Jon: Krista definitely check out.

00:38:23.031 --> 00:38:25.701
Um, so make good design.co.uk.

00:38:26.181 --> 00:38:31.101
Um, let's see some of the, um,
uh, wonderful work that make,

00:38:31.431 --> 00:38:35.241
um, and Becky, uh, I've been
working on over the last year.

00:38:35.811 --> 00:38:39.891
Um, thank you so much again for your time.

00:38:39.921 --> 00:38:41.841
Megan has been really good.

00:38:42.441 --> 00:38:48.546
Um, uh, I've never dug so deeply
into the whole process of using,

00:38:48.786 --> 00:38:50.436
using time tracking tools.

00:38:50.436 --> 00:38:51.996
So that's been super insightful.

00:38:52.476 --> 00:38:59.586
Uh, um, and, uh, so I found a question
for you, um, or maybe it's about what

00:38:59.586 --> 00:39:03.906
those other, um, apps are that you have
pinned in your, in your browser, but

00:39:03.996 --> 00:39:08.496
what, what other tools you're using,
if you've got three others, um, that

00:39:08.496 --> 00:39:09.966
you'd recommend people check out.

00:39:11.916 --> 00:39:14.316
Um, so

00:39:14.766 --> 00:39:20.736
Megan: then I use free agent for all of
our accounting, um, an invoice sending.

00:39:20.796 --> 00:39:24.816
And I couldn't really, I feel like I
couldn't run a business without that.

00:39:25.146 --> 00:39:28.446
I know there's other products that do some
of the things, but I really like reagents.

00:39:29.136 --> 00:39:33.186
Um, and I use the Google suite.

00:39:33.186 --> 00:39:36.126
So Google calendar is
really, really useful for me.

00:39:36.726 --> 00:39:38.946
And then we do all our
design work in Sigma or.

00:39:40.536 --> 00:39:45.246
Um, which is an amazing
product it's online.

00:39:45.996 --> 00:39:49.116
So you can see everybody working
online and, but it's super

00:39:49.116 --> 00:39:51.936
fast as well, which is amazing.

00:39:51.996 --> 00:39:55.656
Then it's very clever
and enjoyable to use.

00:39:56.646 --> 00:40:02.046
Um, and then the other one we use loads
is, is trailing managing projects.

00:40:03.366 --> 00:40:03.696
Jon: Alright.

00:40:04.116 --> 00:40:04.446
Excellent.

00:40:04.446 --> 00:40:05.256
Thank you so much.

00:40:05.346 --> 00:40:11.286
I'm also a big free agent fan have been
for more of a decade, more than a decade.

00:40:11.286 --> 00:40:14.496
I very much recommend people check
out all of those tools as well.

00:40:14.526 --> 00:40:16.926
Thank you so much for your time, Megan.

00:40:17.226 --> 00:40:19.326
This has been really, really insightful.

00:40:19.716 --> 00:40:20.076
Thank you.

00:40:20.796 --> 00:40:21.336
Megan: Thanks John.

00:40:21.786 --> 00:40:22.026
Talk

00:40:22.026 --> 00:40:22.236
Jon: to you.

00:40:22.932 --> 00:40:26.622
That was hopefully a useful
example of a customer interview.

00:40:27.762 --> 00:40:31.842
You can find notes from this episode,
including links to all the products

00:40:31.842 --> 00:40:34.392
mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.

00:40:35.322 --> 00:40:38.832
If you know anyone who might benefit
from hearing this perspective,

00:40:39.162 --> 00:40:40.212
please share the episode.

00:40:42.057 --> 00:40:42.897
And word of caution.

00:40:43.497 --> 00:40:46.497
This interview is a snapshot of
just one person's perspective

00:40:46.767 --> 00:40:48.327
in an artificial situation.

00:40:48.987 --> 00:40:52.167
You should be very careful about
drawing any conclusions about

00:40:52.167 --> 00:40:56.007
the guest people like them or the
product from this single data point.

00:40:57.237 --> 00:41:00.747
Customer interviews are most valuable
when you see parallels across, many

00:41:00.747 --> 00:41:02.997
of them will be in a specific context.

00:41:03.867 --> 00:41:06.747
I'd suggest a minimum of
five and ideally 12 to 15.

00:41:07.857 --> 00:41:11.817
I recommend the book, deploy
empathy by Michelle Hanson for a

00:41:11.817 --> 00:41:13.587
practical guide on how to do it.

00:41:13.617 --> 00:41:17.216
Well, if you'd like to join
me as a guest on a future

00:41:17.216 --> 00:41:18.986
episode, please send me a note.

00:41:19.346 --> 00:41:20.996
I'm jumped on Twitter.

00:41:21.296 --> 00:41:22.466
That's J O T.

00:41:22.796 --> 00:41:24.206
My DMS are open.

00:41:25.496 --> 00:41:29.306
You can also use the form at
empathy, deployed.com or email.

00:41:29.336 --> 00:41:30.926
Hello at empathy deployed.

00:41:32.771 --> 00:41:36.071
Please include the names and
addresses of free software products

00:41:36.491 --> 00:41:38.801
you use regularly and or pay for.