WEBVTT
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Imagine world peace where people with conflicting opinions focus on solutions rather than vengeance and blaming and being right.
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Treating each other with dignity and respect.
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Welcome back to Element is Everything, the podcast where we explore what it means to find your element, that place where interests and talents collide to help us feel great and do great.
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I'm your host, Terry Novacek, and today we have the privilege of time with Jane Nelson, author of more than twenty-five books and multiple resources on positive discipline.
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A program she developed back in the early eighties to support adults in guiding and modeling child behavior.
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The program has been so successful that it has extended to 108 countries and is also being used to help couples and to train leaders in the workplace.
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What Jane will point out is that all over the world, parents all want the same basic things for their children to lead a fulfilling life, being healthy, happy, and developing into kind, independent, and resilient adults.
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Adults also want those same things from other adults.
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But sometimes we act out.
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Positive discipline refers to that acting out as mistaken goals.
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I know we adults don't like to hear it, but we aren't a whole lot different than children because we are well, we're human.
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We too, we still have feelings, sensitivities, and personal motivations just like we did when we were kids.
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In this episode, we'll hear about Jane's humble beginnings with her first book and what, after forty-five years, remains top of mind for her in the philosophy.
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A little side note here, the family meeting as described in this podcast is a general outline of the process and lacks details provided in formal training.
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For more information and resources, you can visit positive discipline.org.
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You may also be interested in the element is everything episode titled Don't Misunderstand Me, recorded in April of 2021.
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Jane, you have just done so much through the decades.
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I don't even know where to begin with you.
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I don't know if there's anything that stands out for you as far as maybe kind of highlighting the work that you've done as far as the history and and how you've seen parenting trends change through the decades.
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The thing is, uh I was just really struggling as a parent because uh I I I wanted I didn't want to be punitive, but I didn't know what else to do.
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And so I finally decided to take a class on child development.
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And I was just so lucky to get a professor who said, we're not going to teach you a bunch of theories, but only one theory that will really help children learn self-discipline, responsibility, cooperation, problem solving.
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So I thought, well, that was that sounds good.
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And so I was really excited.
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And it was the work of Alfred Adler and Rudolph Dreikers.
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And um actually, my professor, professor, it was at Brigham Young University, and you all read, he had written a book called Mission for Mother, that uh it has now gone all over the world.
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You know, we have had some people train in over 80 countries through our uh not all of them in purpose, but but because it's just the bottom line is it's based on treating everyone with dignity and respect.
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Well what we have found is that uh parents in every every part of the world have the same challenges, and they really want uh and love their children and want to be able to help them grow up into citizens of the world or citizens who are helpful.
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And uh but I have to tell you, I was what I would call an obnoxious learner, which means I was always, well, yes, but well, what if I can almost tell that he tried to look the other way every time my hand went up.
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But also I found out that the the things they were talking about really did work in treating children with dignity and respect.
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And but I just kept asking, and then gosh, this was way back in 1975 or something like that.
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And so I was doing my dissertation on, I was a school counselor where we had two schools that were experimental schools and one that was a control school, and they all agreed every teacher would do class meetings because the thing I want to say right now, Terry, is I believe that if every family and every classroom was having class meetings and family meetings, that we would have peace in this world.
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Because we would be teaching kids the whole thing is that it's based on Gemeinschaft's fuel, which just means a social interest, a community feeling.
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And that's what is so um important uh for for kids and to focus on solutions.
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You know, this is what's so interesting to me is that when people think, well, if you're not gonna punish, what are you gonna do?
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You're gonna just let them get away with everything.
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And uh, but also if you're kind, isn't that spoiling?
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And the thing is, is to be both kind and firm at the same time.
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You know, I it it was always frustrating to me when people would tell us what not to do, but not tell us what to do.
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And so that was one of the main things I wanted to do in this book.
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And I had been teaching classes to parents.
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Uh, we had a California grant, and we were using a a book called uh Discipline Without Tears, and it went out of print.
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And by now I had so many success stories from both parents and teachers, just tons of them, that uh I thought, okay, I'm just gonna start writing a book.
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And I I sat down uh uh in two months and just whipped it out and I self-published.
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Oh.
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And uh somebody at the very end told me to put an order blank in the back of the book.
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And this was before the internet.
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This was, you know, back in the 1981, 1982.
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And then I hired a publicist who had me go to just a San Francisco, Sacramento, and I was going to Tucson.
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And uh from the article in uh the San Francisco Tribune or whatever it was, they started sending that article to the United Press or whatever.
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So we started, because we I figured out these uh guidelines that people could send for if they send a self-addressed envelope, and we started getting requests, self-addressed envelopes from all over the country.
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And we we weren't sure why.
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And then it was actually when I met Lynn Lott, and um she was gonna write a book, but then when she saw ours, she said, we don't need to do it, you've already done it.
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And then I talked her into writing, I I was having problems with one of my own teenagers, and I asked her to uh if she would help me write the book, uh, which she did, and then we started teaching classes.
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And the thing about our classes, Terry, is that they are very experiential.
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They're not just sitting there listening to lectures.
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There's a lot of role-playing where they role-play the child and they role-play practicing that that it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance, that it's both kind and firm at the same time.
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That's quite a trick.
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And it's effective long term, uh, as far as the following two criteria, because it teaches children valuable social and life skills.
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We really do think the discipline that teaches rather than punishes, but that teaches.
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And it helps children discover how capable they are and to use their personal power.
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You know what's so interesting is that people were always wondering, well, what do I do in this case and what do I do in that case?
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And so what we have found is we we developed a um deck of cards, of 52 cards, of what parents could do.
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Because, for example, if if you thought of a of a challenge, and if if you just ask me what we would do for that certain challenge, and I'll show you how these cards work.
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And what is the challenge that a parent might have?
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I would say my child is not motivated to do his best work.
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I'm having a hard time getting him to do good work.
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Okay, so then what we like to do is we go to our deck of cards, and I'm just gonna pick one.
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The one that came up is the tool called Natural Consequences.
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Children develop resiliency and capability by experiencing the natural consequences of their choices.
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So avoid lectures.
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Don't say, I told you so, show empathy.
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Um, you're soaking wet, you must be uncomfortable, or uh be comforting without rescuing a warm shower or validate fitting.
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Sounds like that's very embarrassing.
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So the whole idea here is to allow children to experience the consequences of their choices, not as, well, that's what you get, but hmm, I wonder what you'll learn from this.
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And allow them to learn sometimes.
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And like I will tell you that one of the big places where this worked is once when my daughter, who is today the co-author of one of the books, Positives and Parenting Tools, and a therapist, and she was failing at school, and literally.
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And I just said, you know, I have faith in you that you'll be able to figure this out.
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And because I didn't lecture her or anything, she got busy figuring it out.
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She took some summer classes and was able to make up her absences and and go on from there.
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But it's it's like teaching our children skills, it's like this is one of the criteria.
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Uh, it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance, and that's the primary goal.
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And often we make mistakes about the best way to do that, to find belonging.
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But it's both kind and firm at the same time.
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You know, one of the best, easiest examples of that is I love you, and the answer is no.
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And it was so funny, that came from an argument I was having with my, you know, my youngest.
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Um, but and my kids loved it when they were younger, but when she became a teenager and she said, This is so tight.
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Do we have to do this?
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I said, Yes, we do.
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We can shorten them, but we have to keep doing them.
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And the very next week she went to stay overnight with a friend, and she came home and said, That family is so screwed up, they should be having family meetings.
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And and one of the things I love about that too, though, is that, like I said, I believe that if every classroom and every uh home was having regular family and class meetings, that we would have peace in the world because the focus is on solutions.
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Yes.
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And that's the key.
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And you know, when I when people just say, well, if you don't punish, what else is there?
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Letting them do whatever they want?
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And no, that's not the answer at all.
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The answer is you don't want to use punishment, you want to re don't want to use rewards, but you want to get children involved in what's the solution.
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Here's the problem, what's the solution?
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They're so good at it when we really uh teach them and allow that space.
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Well, and it gives them that sense of control over their own life.
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Exactly.
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And hearing other people's opinions too, though, because uh when they're coming up with uh a solution, first of all, they have to meet all those five criteria.
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You know, we would if if they're looking at uh they they come up with a list of solutions, and then we would say, okay, which ones of these do we need to eliminate because they don't meet these criteria of being kind and firm, helping feel long insignificance, of being effective.
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Uh oh, the the solutions also we think they have to be reason reasonable, related, respectful, and helpful.
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And so we might ask the kids, can anybody see something here that's not respectful?
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And we would delete their the solution that's not respectful.
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Yeah.
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It is interesting.
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The the many times that I've seen this process, even some of the most challenging kids will just change because all of a sudden they they have a voice, um, and they are actually they're listening to other voices because somebody's listening to their voice.
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Exactly, which gives them that basic feeling that Adler taught of everybody wants belonging and significance.
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And in that process, they're feeling belonging because they're part of the process, and they're significant because they have a voice.
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Right.
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But they're also so quick to learn.
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It's like one of my favorite classroom examples was this kid that was late from coming in from the recess bell.
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And so when they started coming up with solutions, they were things like make him stay after class, make him write sentences, uh all of that.
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And I but with and this, I think it was a third grade class.
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And I just said, hey, time out, time out.
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What if you focused on solutions that would help him not be late in the future?
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Well, they got it right away.
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They said, Oh, well, he could play closer to the bell, he could have a bunch of friends saying, shouting, bell.
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But they were all things that were helpful.
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And, you know, I've heard uh from teachers who say during the class meeting process, uh children with another language learn the language faster, and all the kids were willing to help them too.
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Uh, it just feels creates that feeling of uh community and cooperation and wanting to help each other.
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I think the kids really want to be helpful and respectful.
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They just need to be taught the skills.
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And that's why we say that, you know, one of the things that in positive discipline is we're teaching kids not only to help them feel belonging and significance, but them to learn a process of helping in an environment they're in to focus on solutions.
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Yes.
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And let it trickle out to others, those skills.
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Um, you talk, in fact, I think one of the titles of your book, didn't you write something about um how we love our children too much?
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Was it an article or a book?
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No, there was an old book called Parents Who Love Too Much.
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And it was it it was it was a poor title because essentially it was saying the same thing that what's his name, who wrote the um she is Jonathan Haidt.
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Oh, yes.
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You know, he wrote a book called The Coddled Coddling of American Children.
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Oh, that's right.
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Yes, that's right.
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That's how our book was.
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We wrote it.
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We wrote uh the parents who loved too much because people who are drawn to positive discipline because they want the respect, they want the the dignity, they don't want to use punishment, they don't like it.
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They do it because they don't know what else there is, and they've been taught, you know, you can't let them get away with that.
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So they lean to be a little bit more permissive, and they're they they have a wrong idea of how to chill make children feel connection, belonging, and significance.
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And that they don't feel that by pampering, which we do in the name of love, but we don't, it but it hurts.
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And so that's what that book was, the whole book about it.
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You know what, we have um written uh just an e-book called Help, My Child is Addicted to Screens.
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Yikes, so am I.
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And the reason I wrote that is because way before the internet, I was playing hearts on my uh computer, and it was midnight, and I would play, and then my head would drop down on my chest.
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I could hardly stay awake, but I kept playing, and I thought, why am I doing this?
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I don't even like it.
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But I thought, I'm addicted.
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So the next day I wiped it off of my computer, and Jonathan Hayde came out with a book that had the statistics.
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And so now everybody is uh, you know, trying their best to try and undo that.
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And the thing is, um, to give up punishment, uh it it's like learning to do the uh the firm part as well.
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I love you, and the answer is no.
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And I I can see that's really upsetting to you, and I'm I'm sure that you'll figure it out.
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If you need my help, let me know.
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That that being kind is so important as well as being firm.
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What is your opinion on providing the reason why?
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Very common, you know, a parent tells a child to do something and or won't let them do something, and it's always why, why, why?
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As a parent, should I provide that explanation?
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No, but you know what I would do as a parent, I would say, that's a good question.
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Why don't you put that on the family meeting agenda and we'll discuss it?
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We'll we'll talk about it all together.
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Oh, yeah, very good.
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It's just like in the classroom, I usually just used to always encourage the kids, oh, that's a good one for the class meeting agenda.
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Go put it and they go over and write it on.
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Uh I I remember that we had one special ed teacher who said that uh his kids were always so upset after playground because they get into trouble.
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He says, but when he would see them coming in, and they would go over and they would write their problem down on the agenda, and then they would walk away with this feature of relief because they knew uh uh we we usually like for it to not come up for a d a few days.
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That's why we like to take things in order, but they still know that they will get some help where people will discuss solutions and that they can fix the solution that will work for them.
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Sometimes those solutions come before the meeting as well, right?
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Oh, favorite story.
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I've got so many favorite stories.
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This one teacher, eighth grade teacher, and um, she only had 40 minutes of uh class time with her kids, so she would have it the last 10 minutes would be for a class meeting.
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And so sometimes they couldn't get through, they would just do it all they could in 10 minutes.
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And one of the problems she put on the agenda was toothpick chewing, because the kids were this habit of chewing toothpicks, and there were broken toothpicks all over the grounds, and it just was obnoxious.
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And so the first day and the first 10 minutes they didn't come to a solution, and the second day they still hadn't supposedly come to the solution.
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Finally, the third day she said, Well, we still haven't solved the problem of toothpick chewing.
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And one of the kids said, Have you seen anyone chewing chewing toothpicks lately?
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And she said, Oh, come to think of it, I haven't.
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And they said, Well, then maybe the problem is solved.
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Yes.
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Just because they were willing to talk about it respectfully.
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Yeah, probably that well, not probably, the more that it gets done in the group and they build those skills in the group, the more they're able to just use those skills on the fly in their in their daily lives, right?
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Exactly.
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And that's the point.
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That is the whole point.
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And you know, this is why, Terry, at the very beginning of our workshops, and one of the things that's different about our workshops, at least before COVID, was that we did them in ways that people could learn new skills and practice these new skills in pr by role-playing.
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They would role play the child as well.
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But one of the things that we would start every workshop with is a list of challenges.
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Okay, let's list all the challenges that you typically might have with children, and then let's make a list of the characteristics and life skills we want.
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And then that becomes our foundation.
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So we can always go uh when when they come up with a solution and say, does it meet the five criteria?
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But every country, every country, it's just amazing.
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They come up with the same list.
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And so what we've learned is that uh even though we have very different cultures, different beliefs, it's like our children in their growing-up process all seem to give us the same challenges.
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And they can relate to those, but then when they're learning tools to deal with them that are using kindness and firmness, they get to practice in their own language and in their own role-playing experience.
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And so that's what makes it very real.
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And it has been so surprising how we can have such different cultures but still have the exact same lists of what we want for our children and the challenges that we have.
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Yeah.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:59.039
And I know another part of that activity is when you then have to reflect on how you handle a different situation.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:13.440
In the parent workshops I've done, this is my favorite one because we say we want our kids to be independent, but then we tend to do a lot of things for them that they're able to do on their own.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:24.079
You know, so sometimes even though we want our child to be a certain way, we're not empowering them or really guiding them in that path.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:28.000
And that's my criticism of our school system.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:47.119
We have a lot of school systems that will totally control and highly structure all a student's learning, and then they leave high school and we say, okay, go be free and think for yourself and know how to learn, even though we've tried to over-control it for the last 13 years.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:47.920
Exactly.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:23:01.599
And you know, this is one of the things that I do love about the class meetings so much, is because the kids are learning and when they solve any one person's problems, they're also learning skills.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:07.599
And what we do is when they when we come up with a solution, and then we do the role-playing.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.440
You know, when we do the teachers helping teachers problem solving steps, or the parents helping parents problem solving steps.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:25.359
And this is this whole process where they will present a problem, and the whole group group will try to come up with solutions and they choose one, but then they role-play it, where they play the child.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:43.039
And, you know, we say after they experience the results of whatever the tool is that they've chosen, then we ask the child or the person who roles playing the child, we go back to the two lists and we say, okay, have you learned?
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:49.519
Uh are you thinking and feeling and deciding to learn any things from these two lists that we want for you?
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.920
Or are you uh feeling uh the challenges?
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:58.720
Are you feeling defiant or uh impatient or talking back?
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:04.000
You know, they get to choose as the child who experienced this tool, which are you learning from?
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:04.880
Which list?
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.519
The challenges or the characteristics and lifestyles?
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:08.960
And that's how we learn.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:13.039
They learn it in their own bodies, in their own role-playing as a child.
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:14.079
What am I thinking?
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:14.799
What am I feeling?
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.720
What am I deciding to do?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:18.720
And that's where you go back to the two lists.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.079
So you're deciding, are you learning something on the characteristics and life skills?
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.880
Or are you feeling more like in the challenges that you want to get even in some way?
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:27.920
Right.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:35.440
The first time I heard this was from you many years ago, the idea that we do good when we feel good.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:38.720
And it's so simple, so basic.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:45.119
And I think of it probably every day in one way or another.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.599
And so I've appreciated hearing that from you those many years ago.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:53.119
But how does that tie to children?
00:24:53.279 --> 00:25:05.119
Um, when we're talking about parents that are maybe loving their children too much, where do we do that because we think we're making them feel good?
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:12.400
If I can give you a lot of compliments, if I can make life easy for you, aren't I making you feel good?
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.640
What's your response to that?
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.839
Well, this is where we like them to learn for themselves.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:31.359
Okay, you be the child, and and in the role play, the the first role play, the what happened, and then how is the child thinking and what are they feeling, and what are they deciding when they are pampered or when they get away with it?
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.799
And so they learn from their own experience.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:42.720
Um, that's why we take them back to the two lists and say, are you learning anything on this list when you experience this discipline?
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.240
Too many people think it's punishment, it just means punishment.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:53.759
Uh but discipline does not mean uh just punishment, but we really want children to learn self-discipline.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.960
But you know, this is where I think we've got to bring up this whole thing.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.759
And it's my people ask me, what's my favorite tool?
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.359
My favorite tool is that mistakes are opportunities to learn.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.039
And so even when our kids make a mistake, just say, that's fantastic.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.559
What'd you learn from that?
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.279
Yeah.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:14.400
And then what do you think is the best way for a parent to handle a mistake?
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.000
Well, that same way.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.759
Yeah, just say, let's put this on the family meeting agenda.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.920
Uh, or you know, you could also say, Would you like to talk about that?
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:28.240
You know, everything doesn't have to be the family meetings, but I sure do.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:38.160
One of the things that's really cool when kids put something either on the class meeting agenda or the family meeting agenda, it's in a place where everybody can see it.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:43.440
And quite often, just because they see the problem there, they work on solving the problem.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.119
Because, and they also know, though, that it's never about punishment.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.680
Your name isn't up there because you're gonna get punished.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.880
Your name is there actually, usually because you put it there.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.440
But quite often I would suggest to my kids, oh, that sounds like a good thing for the family meeting.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:06.400
And then they see it there, they're able to think about it, they know that they're gonna focus on solutions, and so quite often they come prepared or the problem isn't a problem anymore.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:14.160
See, I think that this is one of the reasons that positive discipline has been as successful as it has, is because it's so supportive.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:28.240
You know, like at first, parents or teachers may not want to be the volunteer, you know, because we have teachers helping teachers problem-solving steps as well, uh, where they can really role-play, be in the child's shoes.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:35.119
When they come back though and tell us, did you do what you learned during the teachers helping teachers or during the parents helping are?
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:40.400
Quite often they say, No, I did something else, but they learn still from that process.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:48.799
It just seems magical how often they find something that would work even better, just because even though if it might not have worked in the role play.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:49.519
Yeah.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:54.880
What what are the key parts of a family meeting?
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.960
Well, you start with compliments.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:01.839
And that that's true in um class meetings or family meetings.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:16.640
You always start with compliments, and then uh when you brainstorm solutions, you write all the solutions, and then you go back and say, okay, do we have to delete any of these because they don't meet any of the five criteria?
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:22.480
And so they're really starting to learn that it has to be uh kind and firm at the same time.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:32.559
It helps them feel belonging, uh, teaches them valuable social and life skills, and helps them discover how capable they are and to use their personal power power.
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:42.640
So that is one of the whole uh goals of is really teaching children skills, including the mistakes or opportunities to learn.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.480
You're not gonna be blamed or shamed for the mistakes and say, use that as an opportunity to learn.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:29:00.319
So if you're in a family that has four children and there are two adults, and the four children decide on one solution that the two adults don't necessarily care for, how do you handle that?
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:07.200
You keep trying, you keep saying, no, we got to go back to the drawing board and keep coming up with ideas that work for all of us.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:23.519
Do you know that there was one year about the issue of getting a dog was on our agenda for six months as we talked about all the challenges and the prop problems before we uh finally got a dog.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:32.480
Uh but so they don't have to have immediate answers, but it's the idea that you can discuss it and they know we have to find something that works for everybody.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.400
So you just keep working on it.
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:35.200
Yeah.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.359
Um, you talk a lot about mutual respect.
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:52.720
And a lot of times they think that means I respect you and you respect me, but you actually have a bigger explanation or description of mutual respect.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.759
In that, you're also about respecting yourself.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.319
So I respect you and I respect myself.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.480
And that is what helps with the kind and firm.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.400
I also need to be kind and firm with myself.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:25.599
So then when we go to the topic of working with kids to help them feel good, which is not necessarily just be happy, but to feel good about themselves, mutual respect comes into that.
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:33.119
Well, yeah, and and I think that that's really important that uh you don't do things that just make you feel good if somebody else doesn't feel good.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.720
It's like this is why, uh, you ready for this one?
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:40.000
Gemeinschafskule is so important.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:50.079
That's the word that Adler coined in German that really means um the concern for yourself and others, the social feeling.
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:57.359
And this is why you sometimes have to leave an item on the agenda until everyone feels respected.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:05.759
And and why it has to, you know, when you have the five criteria, you know, I see here it says it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance.
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:10.079
And I'm just realizing it should say it helps everyone feel a sense of belonging and significance.
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:12.559
I just saw a change I'd like to make.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:19.839
Because it's both kind and firm at the same time, and you know, kind is not wishy-washy.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:23.839
It doesn't, you know, sometimes the kindest thing you can do is say no.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:33.920
The kindest thing you can do is let a child experience the consequences of their choices and with empathy instead of adding blame and shame.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.839
Uh, and and also will it be effective long term?
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.480
And then I'm looking at, and it teaches valuable social and life skills.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:49.920
That's one of the things that that's a criteria is the discipline and help them discover how capable they are.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:59.440
And you know, the thing is, I just think that the mistakes as opportunities to learn is such an important one to be able to say, oh, well, I made a mistake.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:08.559
Good, I wonder what I can learn from that, so that we take away the stigma of mistakes and that mistakes are really valuable for our learning.
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.640
And that sometimes um, you know, they might try something that doesn't work and say, this doesn't work.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:16.000
Let's try again.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.039
Let's do brain some more brainstorming, see if we can find something that works better.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:27.359
Mistakes definitely open doors, and they also help us learn a lot about ourselves.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:28.319
Exactly.
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:34.559
And but this is the other reason why, you know, my own uh you would think that I would know all this, but we all have emotions.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.759
We all get uh hooked at times.
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:47.279
And so teaching kids that mistakes, you don't have to be condemned and don't contemn yourself, just really when you feel better, what can I learn from it?
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.640
And how can I correct a mistake I've made?
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.839
Like for instance, it was really hard for Mary.
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:01.119
Oh, dear poor Mary, she's who uh when she was with a bunch of kids that edged some cars.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.960
And I just said, you know, if somebody did that to your car, what would you want them to do?
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.599
I'd want them to clean it up, but there you go.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.920
So there's a solution.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:22.559
And she felt, you know, just humiliated, but that's where I would just kindly and firmly say, Yeah, you need to go fix that mistake by apologizing and cleaning their car, and she did.
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:24.559
No, I didn't tell her to.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:25.839
I said, What do you need to do?
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.480
What would you want somebody to do if it was your car?
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.519
Yeah.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:54.079
Something, you know, our schools uh follow positive discipline, and we have seen it really empower our teachers and our parents in guiding students towards what we refer to as finding your element because they get to make those mistakes, they have those conversations.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:16.159
In all that you've seen in your decades of this, how do you feel this model supports not just children, but parents too, or anybody in finding their element, finding that place where they are doing well by themselves as well as others?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.960
First of all, I think that we have to admit that it may not work for everybody.
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:30.400
But it for those who it does work for uh, especially when they get that part that mistakes are opportunities to learn, it does not mean you have to be perfect.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.360
It does not mean that you that you may actually even be comfortable uh with mistakes.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:36.559
And gee, I made a mistake.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:38.559
What do I gonna learn from this one?
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:42.320
Uh without having the the shame and the blame.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:48.400
And so I think that that's just a very important part of this model is to know that it's not about perfection.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:35:02.000
And I especially think for parents and teachers, like we have emotions, we get our feelings hurt, we get frustrated, and then we can calm down and say, whoops, yeah, I didn't handle that the best.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.400
It's like not about perfection.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:11.440
It's just not about perfection, but it's always about improvement that's based on dignity and respect.
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.000
I would think that's one of the main things.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:18.480
But but also you're you're a uh a Montessori school, right?
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:20.800
One of our schools is, yes.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:37.360
And the thing is, is that Montessori and Adler uh and Drykurs, mostly Dryker and Montessori were at the same time, they just both had the basic feelings of dignity and respect for for children.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:43.920
And Montessori uh focused on the uh curriculum and the environment.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:55.199
And Adler and Dreikers went into the behavior and the reasons for the when there was a belonging of significant or lacking, and what to do about that to create this atmosphere.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:03.760
You know, I've had a lot of teachers say that even during the class meetings, it's one of the best ways for their children who are English is not their first language.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:09.840
They get so involved and the other kids are so willing to help that that it really is a great ESL program.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:11.119
Yeah.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.880
Yeah, definitely.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:24.239
So, what aspects of positive discipline do you feel help children find their passion and and help them be their best selves?
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.760
I know you have a lot of tools and activities.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:29.920
What stands out for you?
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:39.039
Well, I think that every tool that has that as a goal and to help children learn, first of all, that they belong.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:53.760
And they belong in a way that's not dependent on pampering or getting away with or punishing, but it's uh in this way of they are capable of focusing on solutions, whether it's from them or from somebody else.
00:36:53.840 --> 00:37:03.360
So they start, they to me, when they feel that belonging and they feel significant, the belonging is just something to give everybody because they're part of it and they're included.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:08.639
But the significance, they're learning skills, they're learning to focus on solutions.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:12.079
And I don't expect them to really learn what their element is.
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:22.239
There aren't very many who do that in in elementary school or even maybe in in high school, but it gives them those basic foundational pieces.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:32.719
I think all of the tools, because all of the tools are based on focusing on solutions that uh are where everybody feels dignity and respect.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.519
And so when you've got that as a foundation, what difference does it make what you decide to do?
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:46.880
I think it's bringing those qualities of uh respect and focusing on solutions fits in any element that they decide on.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.320
Very well said.
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:58.159
Jane, thank you very much for uh making time and allowing me to hear a little bit about the history and your experience through the years.
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:09.199
Well, you know, one of the other things that I would just like to mention is it's so amazing to me the genius of Adler and Dryker's and to come up with this way of teaching.
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:19.360
But what's so interesting to me is how many other phases of life, like we had one parent educator who she decided to use these tools in her marriage.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:26.559
And she said, she said, after they had done them for the whole year, they said they felt like they were on a honeymoon again.
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:34.079
So, and then somebody else said, Oh, this would work with my managers, and so we came up with empowering people in the workplace.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:42.400
Uh you know, it's just like people, so there's marriage, the workplace, that it just it really fits in all walks of life.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:43.599
Absolutely.
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:45.039
Humans are humans.
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:59.519
So no matter what they're I like that word element, no matter what it is, if they have these characteristics and life skills that they bring to that endeavor, then I just think that they will be uh happier themselves and a service in the in the planet.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:07.679
Oh man, that was fun.
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:13.280
Even after her many decades of work, you can still hear her enthusiasm.
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:17.360
In the interview, we talked about the two lists activity.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:24.639
This is an activity done at the beginning of a workshop in which you make two lists, as you probably already figured out.
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:29.599
The first is a list of the challenges you are experiencing from your child.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.639
You could also think of challenges with your spouse or workplace member.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:45.280
The second list being future characteristics and life skills you'd like to see in said child, significant other or colleague.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:57.280
This activity oftentimes reveals how our behaviors or methods in dealing with other people can sometimes be counterproductive to our preferred characteristics.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:15.440
I use the example of the child growing into an independent adult, and there are many other characteristics that tend to show up on the list, like wanting a child to be an effective communicator, but yet the parent or someone else ends up doing most of the talking.
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:22.880
Or hoping a child will be a critical thinker, but not providing enough challenge to really stretch their thinking.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:28.960
But let's turn to adults, friends, significant others, colleagues.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.000
Think of someone you're having challenges with and list those challenges.
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:41.119
Then list the characteristics or skills you hoped she or he could show more of.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.000
Hopefully, it goes without saying that you need to be realistic.
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:50.400
I mean, come on, the magic of positive discipline does have its limits.
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:56.559
It's not going to make artists into doctors and doctors into mechanics or mechanics into therapists.
00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:03.039
But for example, say you have an adult in your life that won't listen.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:12.880
And what you want is someone with whom you feel a connection with, someone on the same page, someone who well listens.
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:18.000
What do we usually think, feel, and do in that situation?
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.880
Oh, my spouse never listens and doesn't care.
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:24.239
I just shut down.
00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:28.960
My friend never listens and is always making bad choices.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:31.199
I just have to say, I told you so.
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.320
My colleague never listens and keeps making the same mistake.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.119
Well, time for some serious punishment.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:47.760
The key here is to remember that others will listen to us after they feel listened to.
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:53.039
How much time do you spend telling versus asking?
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.519
I tell you, oops, unintended pun there.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:15.519
Without fail, when I'm having a challenge with someone, whether it be my adult children, a student in one of our schools, my spouse or a colleague, I can usually trace it back to me doing a lot of telling rather than asking and listening.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:38.239
So the next time you're feeling tempted to say, clean up your room, get a job, do your schoolwork, help with the dishes, or finish the paperwork, consider having a conversation that comes from a place of curiosity and instead ask what is your responsibility now that you've completed that?
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.480
What ideas do you have for the type of work you'd like to do?
00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:47.119
Do you have a plan for completing that paperwork?
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.159
Are there any challenges you need help working through?
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.320
It seems like our agreement on dishes isn't working.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.239
Can we discuss a new plan?
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.480
And speaking of a new plan, here is your challenge.
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:04.960
Schedule a class, a work or a family meeting.
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:14.079
Not the type where you're discussing your day or the next task you're going to work on, but one where you're addressing an area of concern.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:26.000
Everyone in the group needs to have access to a shared agenda, whether it be digital, a whiteboard or a notepad, but something so that everybody can see and add topics.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:43.599
When you meet, make sure that disturbances like phones, deliveries, and all that kind of stuff are not permitted, and that everyone participating comes with a mindset of finding solutions rather than looking to blame or defend or ignore.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:52.559
Begin with compliments to set the stage with a reminder that, hey, all of us in this group, we're all good people here.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:57.039
And then that will also help you be ready to tackle that challenge.
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:00.960
Then brainstorm some possible solutions.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.280
There's no wrong answers for this part.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.159
Just list anything and everything that comes to mind.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:22.800
But then compare each of those solutions or possible solutions to the five criteria, which are making sure that it's kind and firm at the same time, both respectful and encouraging.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:30.559
Making sure that the members feel a sense of belonging and significance, that there's a connection to it.
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:42.079
Being sure that it's effective in the long term, remembering that our punishment works short term, but has negative long-term results.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.760
Make sure that it involves social and life skill building for good character.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:55.440
Are we learning to respect, show concern for others, problem solve, uh contribute, cooperate?
00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:03.679
And lastly, that it invites others to feel capable and to use their personal power in constructive ways.
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:11.599
So keep at it until everyone agrees, or at least agrees, to give it a try for one week.
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:23.679
This reminds me of what Katina Franklin of the Embark Center for Self-Directed Education shared with us in our episode on power with, not power over.
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.599
It was an episode on sociocracy back in uh July of 2025.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:35.760
Getting everyone to agree is not always easy, but it can be done.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:43.360
And as Jane says, if we could all learn these skills, we might have a shot at world peace.
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:50.880
And while world peace might feel like a big leap, real change always starts small.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:59.599
It starts with you, with your family, and with the conversations happening around your kitchen table, in your classrooms, in your workplace.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:08.639
As you slow down, listen more deeply and look for positive solutions, you'll discover something important.
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:11.760
You'll be learning about yourself.
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:18.239
And that self-awareness will bring you one step closer to finding your element.
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:44.239
If you visit the Element is Everything website, you'll find additional resources on today's topic.
00:46:44.480 --> 00:47:00.400
Invite friends and family to join our community of listeners as we ponder science, perspectives, and strategies around personal accountability, courageous learning, and clear decision making for a sense of connection to ourselves, others, and life.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:19.359
Imagine world peace where people with conflicting opinions focus on solutions rather than vengeance and blaming and being right.
00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:23.600
Treating each other with dignity and respect.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:42.240
Welcome back to Element is Everything, the podcast where we explore what it means to find your element, that place where interests and talents collide to help us feel great and do great.
00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:54.880
I'm your host, Terry Novacek, and today we have the privilege of time with Jane Nelson, author of more than twenty-five books and multiple resources on positive discipline.
00:00:55.439 --> 00:01:02.560
A program she developed back in the early eighties to support adults in guiding and modeling child behavior.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:14.239
The program has been so successful that it has extended to 108 countries and is also being used to help couples and to train leaders in the workplace.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:31.359
What Jane will point out is that all over the world, parents all want the same basic things for their children to lead a fulfilling life, being healthy, happy, and developing into kind, independent, and resilient adults.
00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:35.840
Adults also want those same things from other adults.
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But sometimes we act out.
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Positive discipline refers to that acting out as mistaken goals.
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I know we adults don't like to hear it, but we aren't a whole lot different than children because we are well, we're human.
00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:03.840
We too, we still have feelings, sensitivities, and personal motivations just like we did when we were kids.
00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:17.199
In this episode, we'll hear about Jane's humble beginnings with her first book and what, after forty-five years, remains top of mind for her in the philosophy.
00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:28.479
A little side note here, the family meeting as described in this podcast is a general outline of the process and lacks details provided in formal training.
00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:33.840
For more information and resources, you can visit positive discipline.org.
00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:43.199
You may also be interested in the element is everything episode titled Don't Misunderstand Me, recorded in April of 2021.
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.520
Jane, you have just done so much through the decades.
00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.120
I don't even know where to begin with you.
00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:11.520
I don't know if there's anything that stands out for you as far as maybe kind of highlighting the work that you've done as far as the history and and how you've seen parenting trends change through the decades.
00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:23.199
The thing is, uh I was just really struggling as a parent because uh I I I wanted I didn't want to be punitive, but I didn't know what else to do.
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:27.599
And so I finally decided to take a class on child development.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:43.439
And I was just so lucky to get a professor who said, we're not going to teach you a bunch of theories, but only one theory that will really help children learn self-discipline, responsibility, cooperation, problem solving.
00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:46.080
So I thought, well, that was that sounds good.
00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:47.680
And so I was really excited.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.159
And it was the work of Alfred Adler and Rudolph Dreikers.
00:03:50.879 --> 00:04:02.719
And um actually, my professor, professor, it was at Brigham Young University, and you all read, he had written a book called Mission for Mother, that uh it has now gone all over the world.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:15.520
You know, we have had some people train in over 80 countries through our uh not all of them in purpose, but but because it's just the bottom line is it's based on treating everyone with dignity and respect.
00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:32.560
Well what we have found is that uh parents in every every part of the world have the same challenges, and they really want uh and love their children and want to be able to help them grow up into citizens of the world or citizens who are helpful.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:45.920
And uh but I have to tell you, I was what I would call an obnoxious learner, which means I was always, well, yes, but well, what if I can almost tell that he tried to look the other way every time my hand went up.
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:55.839
But also I found out that the the things they were talking about really did work in treating children with dignity and respect.
00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:03.360
And but I just kept asking, and then gosh, this was way back in 1975 or something like that.
00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:31.519
And so I was doing my dissertation on, I was a school counselor where we had two schools that were experimental schools and one that was a control school, and they all agreed every teacher would do class meetings because the thing I want to say right now, Terry, is I believe that if every family and every classroom was having class meetings and family meetings, that we would have peace in this world.
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:43.920
Because we would be teaching kids the whole thing is that it's based on Gemeinschaft's fuel, which just means a social interest, a community feeling.
00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:49.360
And that's what is so um important uh for for kids and to focus on solutions.
00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:55.279
You know, this is what's so interesting to me is that when people think, well, if you're not gonna punish, what are you gonna do?
00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:57.839
You're gonna just let them get away with everything.
00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:01.519
And uh, but also if you're kind, isn't that spoiling?
00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:05.600
And the thing is, is to be both kind and firm at the same time.
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:11.759
You know, I it it was always frustrating to me when people would tell us what not to do, but not tell us what to do.
00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.519
And so that was one of the main things I wanted to do in this book.
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.720
And I had been teaching classes to parents.
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:28.160
Uh, we had a California grant, and we were using a a book called uh Discipline Without Tears, and it went out of print.
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:38.720
And by now I had so many success stories from both parents and teachers, just tons of them, that uh I thought, okay, I'm just gonna start writing a book.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:44.720
And I I sat down uh uh in two months and just whipped it out and I self-published.
00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:45.279
Oh.
00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:51.199
And uh somebody at the very end told me to put an order blank in the back of the book.
00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.040
And this was before the internet.
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:56.240
This was, you know, back in the 1981, 1982.
00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:03.360
And then I hired a publicist who had me go to just a San Francisco, Sacramento, and I was going to Tucson.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:15.040
And uh from the article in uh the San Francisco Tribune or whatever it was, they started sending that article to the United Press or whatever.
00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:28.639
So we started, because we I figured out these uh guidelines that people could send for if they send a self-addressed envelope, and we started getting requests, self-addressed envelopes from all over the country.
00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:30.720
And we we weren't sure why.
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:40.800
And then it was actually when I met Lynn Lott, and um she was gonna write a book, but then when she saw ours, she said, we don't need to do it, you've already done it.
00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:55.120
And then I talked her into writing, I I was having problems with one of my own teenagers, and I asked her to uh if she would help me write the book, uh, which she did, and then we started teaching classes.
00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:01.199
And the thing about our classes, Terry, is that they are very experiential.
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.759
They're not just sitting there listening to lectures.
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:17.439
There's a lot of role-playing where they role-play the child and they role-play practicing that that it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance, that it's both kind and firm at the same time.
00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:19.120
That's quite a trick.
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:28.079
And it's effective long term, uh, as far as the following two criteria, because it teaches children valuable social and life skills.
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:34.080
We really do think the discipline that teaches rather than punishes, but that teaches.
00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:39.279
And it helps children discover how capable they are and to use their personal power.
00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:46.639
You know what's so interesting is that people were always wondering, well, what do I do in this case and what do I do in that case?
00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:54.879
And so what we have found is we we developed a um deck of cards, of 52 cards, of what parents could do.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:09:05.600
Because, for example, if if you thought of a of a challenge, and if if you just ask me what we would do for that certain challenge, and I'll show you how these cards work.
00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.279
And what is the challenge that a parent might have?
00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:20.720
I would say my child is not motivated to do his best work.
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:24.399
I'm having a hard time getting him to do good work.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.240
Okay, so then what we like to do is we go to our deck of cards, and I'm just gonna pick one.
00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.360
The one that came up is the tool called Natural Consequences.
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:41.440
Children develop resiliency and capability by experiencing the natural consequences of their choices.
00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:42.960
So avoid lectures.
00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.759
Don't say, I told you so, show empathy.
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Um, you're soaking wet, you must be uncomfortable, or uh be comforting without rescuing a warm shower or validate fitting.
00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.200
Sounds like that's very embarrassing.
00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:08.639
So the whole idea here is to allow children to experience the consequences of their choices, not as, well, that's what you get, but hmm, I wonder what you'll learn from this.
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.519
And allow them to learn sometimes.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:25.919
And like I will tell you that one of the big places where this worked is once when my daughter, who is today the co-author of one of the books, Positives and Parenting Tools, and a therapist, and she was failing at school, and literally.
00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:29.679
And I just said, you know, I have faith in you that you'll be able to figure this out.
00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.200
And because I didn't lecture her or anything, she got busy figuring it out.
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:39.759
She took some summer classes and was able to make up her absences and and go on from there.
00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:46.080
But it's it's like teaching our children skills, it's like this is one of the criteria.
00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:51.519
Uh, it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance, and that's the primary goal.
00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:55.440
And often we make mistakes about the best way to do that, to find belonging.
00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.480
But it's both kind and firm at the same time.
00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:03.600
You know, one of the best, easiest examples of that is I love you, and the answer is no.
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.600
And it was so funny, that came from an argument I was having with my, you know, my youngest.
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:17.120
Um, but and my kids loved it when they were younger, but when she became a teenager and she said, This is so tight.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:18.320
Do we have to do this?
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:19.759
I said, Yes, we do.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.240
We can shorten them, but we have to keep doing them.
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:30.320
And the very next week she went to stay overnight with a friend, and she came home and said, That family is so screwed up, they should be having family meetings.
00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:47.759
And and one of the things I love about that too, though, is that, like I said, I believe that if every classroom and every uh home was having regular family and class meetings, that we would have peace in the world because the focus is on solutions.
00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:48.159
Yes.
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:49.200
And that's the key.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:55.039
And you know, when I when people just say, well, if you don't punish, what else is there?
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Letting them do whatever they want?
00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:59.279
And no, that's not the answer at all.
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:09.120
The answer is you don't want to use punishment, you want to re don't want to use rewards, but you want to get children involved in what's the solution.
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.120
Here's the problem, what's the solution?
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.679
They're so good at it when we really uh teach them and allow that space.
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.960
Well, and it gives them that sense of control over their own life.
00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:22.240
Exactly.
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:32.960
And hearing other people's opinions too, though, because uh when they're coming up with uh a solution, first of all, they have to meet all those five criteria.
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:48.559
You know, we would if if they're looking at uh they they come up with a list of solutions, and then we would say, okay, which ones of these do we need to eliminate because they don't meet these criteria of being kind and firm, helping feel long insignificance, of being effective.
00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:55.440
Uh oh, the the solutions also we think they have to be reason reasonable, related, respectful, and helpful.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:01.279
And so we might ask the kids, can anybody see something here that's not respectful?
00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.960
And we would delete their the solution that's not respectful.
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:05.759
Yeah.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:07.919
It is interesting.
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:27.200
The the many times that I've seen this process, even some of the most challenging kids will just change because all of a sudden they they have a voice, um, and they are actually they're listening to other voices because somebody's listening to their voice.
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:33.840
Exactly, which gives them that basic feeling that Adler taught of everybody wants belonging and significance.
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:40.080
And in that process, they're feeling belonging because they're part of the process, and they're significant because they have a voice.
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:40.480
Right.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.399
But they're also so quick to learn.
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:49.840
It's like one of my favorite classroom examples was this kid that was late from coming in from the recess bell.
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:59.200
And so when they started coming up with solutions, they were things like make him stay after class, make him write sentences, uh all of that.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.799
And I but with and this, I think it was a third grade class.
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:05.200
And I just said, hey, time out, time out.
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:10.080
What if you focused on solutions that would help him not be late in the future?
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:11.600
Well, they got it right away.
00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:17.600
They said, Oh, well, he could play closer to the bell, he could have a bunch of friends saying, shouting, bell.
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:20.080
But they were all things that were helpful.
00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:31.919
And, you know, I've heard uh from teachers who say during the class meeting process, uh children with another language learn the language faster, and all the kids were willing to help them too.
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:39.600
Uh, it just feels creates that feeling of uh community and cooperation and wanting to help each other.
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:42.879
I think the kids really want to be helpful and respectful.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.759
They just need to be taught the skills.
00:14:45.919 --> 00:15:00.000
And that's why we say that, you know, one of the things that in positive discipline is we're teaching kids not only to help them feel belonging and significance, but them to learn a process of helping in an environment they're in to focus on solutions.
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:00.799
Yes.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.399
And let it trickle out to others, those skills.
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:13.200
Um, you talk, in fact, I think one of the titles of your book, didn't you write something about um how we love our children too much?
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.200
Was it an article or a book?
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.000
No, there was an old book called Parents Who Love Too Much.
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:29.759
And it was it it was it was a poor title because essentially it was saying the same thing that what's his name, who wrote the um she is Jonathan Haidt.
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:30.399
Oh, yes.
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:34.960
You know, he wrote a book called The Coddled Coddling of American Children.
00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:35.759
Oh, that's right.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:37.440
Yes, that's right.
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:39.039
That's how our book was.
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:39.679
We wrote it.
00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:52.000
We wrote uh the parents who loved too much because people who are drawn to positive discipline because they want the respect, they want the the dignity, they don't want to use punishment, they don't like it.
00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:56.639
They do it because they don't know what else there is, and they've been taught, you know, you can't let them get away with that.
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:06.000
So they lean to be a little bit more permissive, and they're they they have a wrong idea of how to chill make children feel connection, belonging, and significance.
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:12.879
And that they don't feel that by pampering, which we do in the name of love, but we don't, it but it hurts.
00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.759
And so that's what that book was, the whole book about it.
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:21.919
You know what, we have um written uh just an e-book called Help, My Child is Addicted to Screens.
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.519
Yikes, so am I.
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:41.679
And the reason I wrote that is because way before the internet, I was playing hearts on my uh computer, and it was midnight, and I would play, and then my head would drop down on my chest.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:45.840
I could hardly stay awake, but I kept playing, and I thought, why am I doing this?
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:47.360
I don't even like it.
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.679
But I thought, I'm addicted.
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:56.799
So the next day I wiped it off of my computer, and Jonathan Hayde came out with a book that had the statistics.
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:02.960
And so now everybody is uh, you know, trying their best to try and undo that.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:11.119
And the thing is, um, to give up punishment, uh it it's like learning to do the uh the firm part as well.
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.359
I love you, and the answer is no.
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:18.720
And I I can see that's really upsetting to you, and I'm I'm sure that you'll figure it out.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:20.559
If you need my help, let me know.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.960
That that being kind is so important as well as being firm.
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:30.319
What is your opinion on providing the reason why?
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:40.319
Very common, you know, a parent tells a child to do something and or won't let them do something, and it's always why, why, why?
00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.519
As a parent, should I provide that explanation?
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.160
No, but you know what I would do as a parent, I would say, that's a good question.
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.920
Why don't you put that on the family meeting agenda and we'll discuss it?
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.319
We'll we'll talk about it all together.
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:56.240
Oh, yeah, very good.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:04.559
It's just like in the classroom, I usually just used to always encourage the kids, oh, that's a good one for the class meeting agenda.
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.960
Go put it and they go over and write it on.
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:16.640
Uh I I remember that we had one special ed teacher who said that uh his kids were always so upset after playground because they get into trouble.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:32.960
He says, but when he would see them coming in, and they would go over and they would write their problem down on the agenda, and then they would walk away with this feature of relief because they knew uh uh we we usually like for it to not come up for a d a few days.
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:43.200
That's why we like to take things in order, but they still know that they will get some help where people will discuss solutions and that they can fix the solution that will work for them.
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:49.200
Sometimes those solutions come before the meeting as well, right?
00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:51.200
Oh, favorite story.
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:52.960
I've got so many favorite stories.
00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:06.240
This one teacher, eighth grade teacher, and um, she only had 40 minutes of uh class time with her kids, so she would have it the last 10 minutes would be for a class meeting.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:11.039
And so sometimes they couldn't get through, they would just do it all they could in 10 minutes.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:23.359
And one of the problems she put on the agenda was toothpick chewing, because the kids were this habit of chewing toothpicks, and there were broken toothpicks all over the grounds, and it just was obnoxious.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:31.920
And so the first day and the first 10 minutes they didn't come to a solution, and the second day they still hadn't supposedly come to the solution.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:36.799
Finally, the third day she said, Well, we still haven't solved the problem of toothpick chewing.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.160
And one of the kids said, Have you seen anyone chewing chewing toothpicks lately?
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.680
And she said, Oh, come to think of it, I haven't.
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:48.240
And they said, Well, then maybe the problem is solved.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:49.519
Yes.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.359
Just because they were willing to talk about it respectfully.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:20:10.240
Yeah, probably that well, not probably, the more that it gets done in the group and they build those skills in the group, the more they're able to just use those skills on the fly in their in their daily lives, right?
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:11.039
Exactly.
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:12.319
And that's the point.
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.839
That is the whole point.
00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:33.119
And you know, this is why, Terry, at the very beginning of our workshops, and one of the things that's different about our workshops, at least before COVID, was that we did them in ways that people could learn new skills and practice these new skills in pr by role-playing.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.359
They would role play the child as well.
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:41.359
But one of the things that we would start every workshop with is a list of challenges.
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:50.559
Okay, let's list all the challenges that you typically might have with children, and then let's make a list of the characteristics and life skills we want.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:53.519
And then that becomes our foundation.
00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:02.240
So we can always go uh when when they come up with a solution and say, does it meet the five criteria?
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:07.279
But every country, every country, it's just amazing.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:09.279
They come up with the same list.
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:21.519
And so what we've learned is that uh even though we have very different cultures, different beliefs, it's like our children in their growing-up process all seem to give us the same challenges.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:34.240
And they can relate to those, but then when they're learning tools to deal with them that are using kindness and firmness, they get to practice in their own language and in their own role-playing experience.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.559
And so that's what makes it very real.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:46.319
And it has been so surprising how we can have such different cultures but still have the exact same lists of what we want for our children and the challenges that we have.
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:47.359
Yeah.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:59.039
And I know another part of that activity is when you then have to reflect on how you handle a different situation.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:13.440
In the parent workshops I've done, this is my favorite one because we say we want our kids to be independent, but then we tend to do a lot of things for them that they're able to do on their own.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:24.079
You know, so sometimes even though we want our child to be a certain way, we're not empowering them or really guiding them in that path.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:28.000
And that's my criticism of our school system.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:47.119
We have a lot of school systems that will totally control and highly structure all a student's learning, and then they leave high school and we say, okay, go be free and think for yourself and know how to learn, even though we've tried to over-control it for the last 13 years.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:47.920
Exactly.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:23:01.599
And you know, this is one of the things that I do love about the class meetings so much, is because the kids are learning and when they solve any one person's problems, they're also learning skills.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:07.599
And what we do is when they when we come up with a solution, and then we do the role-playing.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.440
You know, when we do the teachers helping teachers problem solving steps, or the parents helping parents problem solving steps.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:25.359
And this is this whole process where they will present a problem, and the whole group group will try to come up with solutions and they choose one, but then they role-play it, where they play the child.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:43.039
And, you know, we say after they experience the results of whatever the tool is that they've chosen, then we ask the child or the person who roles playing the child, we go back to the two lists and we say, okay, have you learned?
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:49.519
Uh are you thinking and feeling and deciding to learn any things from these two lists that we want for you?
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.920
Or are you uh feeling uh the challenges?
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:58.720
Are you feeling defiant or uh impatient or talking back?
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:04.000
You know, they get to choose as the child who experienced this tool, which are you learning from?
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:04.880
Which list?
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.519
The challenges or the characteristics and lifestyles?
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:08.960
And that's how we learn.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:13.039
They learn it in their own bodies, in their own role-playing as a child.
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:14.079
What am I thinking?
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:14.799
What am I feeling?
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.720
What am I deciding to do?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:18.720
And that's where you go back to the two lists.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.079
So you're deciding, are you learning something on the characteristics and life skills?
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.880
Or are you feeling more like in the challenges that you want to get even in some way?
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:27.920
Right.
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:35.440
The first time I heard this was from you many years ago, the idea that we do good when we feel good.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:38.720
And it's so simple, so basic.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:45.119
And I think of it probably every day in one way or another.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.599
And so I've appreciated hearing that from you those many years ago.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:53.119
But how does that tie to children?
00:24:53.279 --> 00:25:05.119
Um, when we're talking about parents that are maybe loving their children too much, where do we do that because we think we're making them feel good?
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:12.400
If I can give you a lot of compliments, if I can make life easy for you, aren't I making you feel good?
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.640
What's your response to that?
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.839
Well, this is where we like them to learn for themselves.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:31.359
Okay, you be the child, and and in the role play, the the first role play, the what happened, and then how is the child thinking and what are they feeling, and what are they deciding when they are pampered or when they get away with it?
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.799
And so they learn from their own experience.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:42.720
Um, that's why we take them back to the two lists and say, are you learning anything on this list when you experience this discipline?
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.240
Too many people think it's punishment, it just means punishment.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:53.759
Uh but discipline does not mean uh just punishment, but we really want children to learn self-discipline.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.960
But you know, this is where I think we've got to bring up this whole thing.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.759
And it's my people ask me, what's my favorite tool?
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.359
My favorite tool is that mistakes are opportunities to learn.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.039
And so even when our kids make a mistake, just say, that's fantastic.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.559
What'd you learn from that?
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.279
Yeah.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:14.400
And then what do you think is the best way for a parent to handle a mistake?
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.000
Well, that same way.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.759
Yeah, just say, let's put this on the family meeting agenda.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.920
Uh, or you know, you could also say, Would you like to talk about that?
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:28.240
You know, everything doesn't have to be the family meetings, but I sure do.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:38.160
One of the things that's really cool when kids put something either on the class meeting agenda or the family meeting agenda, it's in a place where everybody can see it.
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:43.440
And quite often, just because they see the problem there, they work on solving the problem.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.119
Because, and they also know, though, that it's never about punishment.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.680
Your name isn't up there because you're gonna get punished.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.880
Your name is there actually, usually because you put it there.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.440
But quite often I would suggest to my kids, oh, that sounds like a good thing for the family meeting.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:06.400
And then they see it there, they're able to think about it, they know that they're gonna focus on solutions, and so quite often they come prepared or the problem isn't a problem anymore.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:14.160
See, I think that this is one of the reasons that positive discipline has been as successful as it has, is because it's so supportive.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:28.240
You know, like at first, parents or teachers may not want to be the volunteer, you know, because we have teachers helping teachers problem-solving steps as well, uh, where they can really role-play, be in the child's shoes.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:35.119
When they come back though and tell us, did you do what you learned during the teachers helping teachers or during the parents helping are?
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:40.400
Quite often they say, No, I did something else, but they learn still from that process.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:48.799
It just seems magical how often they find something that would work even better, just because even though if it might not have worked in the role play.
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:49.519
Yeah.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:54.880
What what are the key parts of a family meeting?
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.960
Well, you start with compliments.
00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:01.839
And that that's true in um class meetings or family meetings.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:16.640
You always start with compliments, and then uh when you brainstorm solutions, you write all the solutions, and then you go back and say, okay, do we have to delete any of these because they don't meet any of the five criteria?
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:22.480
And so they're really starting to learn that it has to be uh kind and firm at the same time.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:32.559
It helps them feel belonging, uh, teaches them valuable social and life skills, and helps them discover how capable they are and to use their personal power power.
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:42.640
So that is one of the whole uh goals of is really teaching children skills, including the mistakes or opportunities to learn.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.480
You're not gonna be blamed or shamed for the mistakes and say, use that as an opportunity to learn.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:29:00.319
So if you're in a family that has four children and there are two adults, and the four children decide on one solution that the two adults don't necessarily care for, how do you handle that?
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:07.200
You keep trying, you keep saying, no, we got to go back to the drawing board and keep coming up with ideas that work for all of us.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:23.519
Do you know that there was one year about the issue of getting a dog was on our agenda for six months as we talked about all the challenges and the prop problems before we uh finally got a dog.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:32.480
Uh but so they don't have to have immediate answers, but it's the idea that you can discuss it and they know we have to find something that works for everybody.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.400
So you just keep working on it.
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:35.200
Yeah.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.359
Um, you talk a lot about mutual respect.
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:52.720
And a lot of times they think that means I respect you and you respect me, but you actually have a bigger explanation or description of mutual respect.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.759
In that, you're also about respecting yourself.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.319
So I respect you and I respect myself.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.480
And that is what helps with the kind and firm.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.400
I also need to be kind and firm with myself.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:25.599
So then when we go to the topic of working with kids to help them feel good, which is not necessarily just be happy, but to feel good about themselves, mutual respect comes into that.
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:33.119
Well, yeah, and and I think that that's really important that uh you don't do things that just make you feel good if somebody else doesn't feel good.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.720
It's like this is why, uh, you ready for this one?
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:40.000
Gemeinschafskule is so important.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:50.079
That's the word that Adler coined in German that really means um the concern for yourself and others, the social feeling.
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:57.359
And this is why you sometimes have to leave an item on the agenda until everyone feels respected.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:05.759
And and why it has to, you know, when you have the five criteria, you know, I see here it says it helps children feel a sense of belonging and significance.
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:10.079
And I'm just realizing it should say it helps everyone feel a sense of belonging and significance.
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:12.559
I just saw a change I'd like to make.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:19.839
Because it's both kind and firm at the same time, and you know, kind is not wishy-washy.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:23.839
It doesn't, you know, sometimes the kindest thing you can do is say no.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:33.920
The kindest thing you can do is let a child experience the consequences of their choices and with empathy instead of adding blame and shame.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.839
Uh, and and also will it be effective long term?
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.480
And then I'm looking at, and it teaches valuable social and life skills.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:49.920
That's one of the things that that's a criteria is the discipline and help them discover how capable they are.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:59.440
And you know, the thing is, I just think that the mistakes as opportunities to learn is such an important one to be able to say, oh, well, I made a mistake.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:08.559
Good, I wonder what I can learn from that, so that we take away the stigma of mistakes and that mistakes are really valuable for our learning.
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.640
And that sometimes um, you know, they might try something that doesn't work and say, this doesn't work.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:16.000
Let's try again.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.039
Let's do brain some more brainstorming, see if we can find something that works better.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:27.359
Mistakes definitely open doors, and they also help us learn a lot about ourselves.
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:28.319
Exactly.
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:34.559
And but this is the other reason why, you know, my own uh you would think that I would know all this, but we all have emotions.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.759
We all get uh hooked at times.
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:47.279
And so teaching kids that mistakes, you don't have to be condemned and don't contemn yourself, just really when you feel better, what can I learn from it?
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.640
And how can I correct a mistake I've made?
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.839
Like for instance, it was really hard for Mary.
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:01.119
Oh, dear poor Mary, she's who uh when she was with a bunch of kids that edged some cars.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.960
And I just said, you know, if somebody did that to your car, what would you want them to do?
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.599
I'd want them to clean it up, but there you go.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.920
So there's a solution.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:22.559
And she felt, you know, just humiliated, but that's where I would just kindly and firmly say, Yeah, you need to go fix that mistake by apologizing and cleaning their car, and she did.
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:24.559
No, I didn't tell her to.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:25.839
I said, What do you need to do?
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.480
What would you want somebody to do if it was your car?
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.519
Yeah.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:54.079
Something, you know, our schools uh follow positive discipline, and we have seen it really empower our teachers and our parents in guiding students towards what we refer to as finding your element because they get to make those mistakes, they have those conversations.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:16.159
In all that you've seen in your decades of this, how do you feel this model supports not just children, but parents too, or anybody in finding their element, finding that place where they are doing well by themselves as well as others?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.960
First of all, I think that we have to admit that it may not work for everybody.
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:30.400
But it for those who it does work for uh, especially when they get that part that mistakes are opportunities to learn, it does not mean you have to be perfect.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:35.360
It does not mean that you that you may actually even be comfortable uh with mistakes.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:36.559
And gee, I made a mistake.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:38.559
What do I gonna learn from this one?
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:42.320
Uh without having the the shame and the blame.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:48.400
And so I think that that's just a very important part of this model is to know that it's not about perfection.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:35:02.000
And I especially think for parents and teachers, like we have emotions, we get our feelings hurt, we get frustrated, and then we can calm down and say, whoops, yeah, I didn't handle that the best.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.400
It's like not about perfection.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:11.440
It's just not about perfection, but it's always about improvement that's based on dignity and respect.
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.000
I would think that's one of the main things.
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:18.480
But but also you're you're a uh a Montessori school, right?
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:20.800
One of our schools is, yes.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:37.360
And the thing is, is that Montessori and Adler uh and Drykurs, mostly Dryker and Montessori were at the same time, they just both had the basic feelings of dignity and respect for for children.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:43.920
And Montessori uh focused on the uh curriculum and the environment.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:55.199
And Adler and Dreikers went into the behavior and the reasons for the when there was a belonging of significant or lacking, and what to do about that to create this atmosphere.
00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:03.760
You know, I've had a lot of teachers say that even during the class meetings, it's one of the best ways for their children who are English is not their first language.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:09.840
They get so involved and the other kids are so willing to help that that it really is a great ESL program.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:11.119
Yeah.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.880
Yeah, definitely.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:24.239
So, what aspects of positive discipline do you feel help children find their passion and and help them be their best selves?
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.760
I know you have a lot of tools and activities.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:29.920
What stands out for you?
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:39.039
Well, I think that every tool that has that as a goal and to help children learn, first of all, that they belong.
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:53.760
And they belong in a way that's not dependent on pampering or getting away with or punishing, but it's uh in this way of they are capable of focusing on solutions, whether it's from them or from somebody else.
00:36:53.840 --> 00:37:03.360
So they start, they to me, when they feel that belonging and they feel significant, the belonging is just something to give everybody because they're part of it and they're included.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:08.639
But the significance, they're learning skills, they're learning to focus on solutions.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:12.079
And I don't expect them to really learn what their element is.
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:22.239
There aren't very many who do that in in elementary school or even maybe in in high school, but it gives them those basic foundational pieces.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:32.719
I think all of the tools, because all of the tools are based on focusing on solutions that uh are where everybody feels dignity and respect.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.519
And so when you've got that as a foundation, what difference does it make what you decide to do?
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:46.880
I think it's bringing those qualities of uh respect and focusing on solutions fits in any element that they decide on.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.320
Very well said.
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:58.159
Jane, thank you very much for uh making time and allowing me to hear a little bit about the history and your experience through the years.
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:09.199
Well, you know, one of the other things that I would just like to mention is it's so amazing to me the genius of Adler and Dryker's and to come up with this way of teaching.
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:19.360
But what's so interesting to me is how many other phases of life, like we had one parent educator who she decided to use these tools in her marriage.
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:26.559
And she said, she said, after they had done them for the whole year, they said they felt like they were on a honeymoon again.
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:34.079
So, and then somebody else said, Oh, this would work with my managers, and so we came up with empowering people in the workplace.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:42.400
Uh you know, it's just like people, so there's marriage, the workplace, that it just it really fits in all walks of life.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:43.599
Absolutely.
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:45.039
Humans are humans.
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:59.519
So no matter what they're I like that word element, no matter what it is, if they have these characteristics and life skills that they bring to that endeavor, then I just think that they will be uh happier themselves and a service in the in the planet.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:07.679
Oh man, that was fun.
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:13.280
Even after her many decades of work, you can still hear her enthusiasm.
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:17.360
In the interview, we talked about the two lists activity.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:24.639
This is an activity done at the beginning of a workshop in which you make two lists, as you probably already figured out.
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:29.599
The first is a list of the challenges you are experiencing from your child.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.639
You could also think of challenges with your spouse or workplace member.
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:45.280
The second list being future characteristics and life skills you'd like to see in said child, significant other or colleague.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:57.280
This activity oftentimes reveals how our behaviors or methods in dealing with other people can sometimes be counterproductive to our preferred characteristics.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:15.440
I use the example of the child growing into an independent adult, and there are many other characteristics that tend to show up on the list, like wanting a child to be an effective communicator, but yet the parent or someone else ends up doing most of the talking.
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:22.880
Or hoping a child will be a critical thinker, but not providing enough challenge to really stretch their thinking.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:28.960
But let's turn to adults, friends, significant others, colleagues.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.000
Think of someone you're having challenges with and list those challenges.
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:41.119
Then list the characteristics or skills you hoped she or he could show more of.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.000
Hopefully, it goes without saying that you need to be realistic.
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:50.400
I mean, come on, the magic of positive discipline does have its limits.
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:56.559
It's not going to make artists into doctors and doctors into mechanics or mechanics into therapists.
00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:03.039
But for example, say you have an adult in your life that won't listen.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:12.880
And what you want is someone with whom you feel a connection with, someone on the same page, someone who well listens.
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:18.000
What do we usually think, feel, and do in that situation?
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.880
Oh, my spouse never listens and doesn't care.
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:24.239
I just shut down.
00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:28.960
My friend never listens and is always making bad choices.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:31.199
I just have to say, I told you so.
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.320
My colleague never listens and keeps making the same mistake.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.119
Well, time for some serious punishment.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:47.760
The key here is to remember that others will listen to us after they feel listened to.
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:53.039
How much time do you spend telling versus asking?
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.519
I tell you, oops, unintended pun there.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:15.519
Without fail, when I'm having a challenge with someone, whether it be my adult children, a student in one of our schools, my spouse or a colleague, I can usually trace it back to me doing a lot of telling rather than asking and listening.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:38.239
So the next time you're feeling tempted to say, clean up your room, get a job, do your schoolwork, help with the dishes, or finish the paperwork, consider having a conversation that comes from a place of curiosity and instead ask what is your responsibility now that you've completed that?
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.480
What ideas do you have for the type of work you'd like to do?
00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:47.119
Do you have a plan for completing that paperwork?
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.159
Are there any challenges you need help working through?
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.320
It seems like our agreement on dishes isn't working.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.239
Can we discuss a new plan?
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.480
And speaking of a new plan, here is your challenge.
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:04.960
Schedule a class, a work or a family meeting.
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:14.079
Not the type where you're discussing your day or the next task you're going to work on, but one where you're addressing an area of concern.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:26.000
Everyone in the group needs to have access to a shared agenda, whether it be digital, a whiteboard or a notepad, but something so that everybody can see and add topics.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:43.599
When you meet, make sure that disturbances like phones, deliveries, and all that kind of stuff are not permitted, and that everyone participating comes with a mindset of finding solutions rather than looking to blame or defend or ignore.
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:52.559
Begin with compliments to set the stage with a reminder that, hey, all of us in this group, we're all good people here.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:57.039
And then that will also help you be ready to tackle that challenge.
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:00.960
Then brainstorm some possible solutions.
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.280
There's no wrong answers for this part.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.159
Just list anything and everything that comes to mind.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:22.800
But then compare each of those solutions or possible solutions to the five criteria, which are making sure that it's kind and firm at the same time, both respectful and encouraging.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:30.559
Making sure that the members feel a sense of belonging and significance, that there's a connection to it.
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:42.079
Being sure that it's effective in the long term, remembering that our punishment works short term, but has negative long-term results.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.760
Make sure that it involves social and life skill building for good character.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:55.440
Are we learning to respect, show concern for others, problem solve, uh contribute, cooperate?
00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:03.679
And lastly, that it invites others to feel capable and to use their personal power in constructive ways.
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:11.599
So keep at it until everyone agrees, or at least agrees, to give it a try for one week.
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:23.679
This reminds me of what Katina Franklin of the Embark Center for Self-Directed Education shared with us in our episode on power with, not power over.
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.599
It was an episode on sociocracy back in uh July of 2025.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:35.760
Getting everyone to agree is not always easy, but it can be done.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:43.360
And as Jane says, if we could all learn these skills, we might have a shot at world peace.
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:50.880
And while world peace might feel like a big leap, real change always starts small.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:59.599
It starts with you, with your family, and with the conversations happening around your kitchen table, in your classrooms, in your workplace.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:08.639
As you slow down, listen more deeply and look for positive solutions, you'll discover something important.
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:11.760
You'll be learning about yourself.
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:18.239
And that self-awareness will bring you one step closer to finding your element.
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:44.239
If you visit the Element is Everything website, you'll find additional resources on today's topic.
00:46:44.480 --> 00:47:00.400
Invite friends and family to join our community of listeners as we ponder science, perspectives, and strategies around personal accountability, courageous learning, and clear decision making for a sense of connection to ourselves, others, and life.
