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Welcome to Eight Principles Voices.
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Conversations with those who are making a difference.
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I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles.
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Now join me as I welcome this week's guest, as they invite us to come along on their journey.
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Hello, everybody.
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It's Larry Johnson, your host for A Principles Voices.
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And I'm really thrilled to have with me today James Meisser.
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I think that's how he pronounces his name.
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James, is that right?
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That's right.
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Okay.
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And and James is a kind of a cool dude because he's got his priorities in the right order.
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Number one, he says he's a he says he's a father.
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Uh, how many kids do you have, James?
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We have three, 10, 8, and 5.
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Oh, that's wonderful.
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And then he also is the founder.
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Oh no.
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Secondly, he runs a cut flower farm, which is which he's growing.
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And then thirdly, he's talking about what we're going to talk about today, and that is his company, Keepos.
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Now, I know when we talked before, uh, James, you told me what kepos meant.
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And I know it's a Greek word, a Greek term.
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Enlighten me again.
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Enlighten our audience.
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Yeah.
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So kepos is the Greek word for garden.
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Okay.
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And so kind of fits with the farming, you know, thing.
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Of course it does.
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Just a little bit.
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Um, I've been a professional fundraiser uh for 25 years now.
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And deeply truly believe that the best way to do it is to help organizations and their audience, their donor base, grow things that are beautiful out of their relationship together.
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Okay.
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So it's not just about extracting resource, it's about co-creating something uh that brings beauty and food and rest and peace uh into the world.
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Okay.
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Well, that uh that floats my boat.
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All right.
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And how long have you been doing this?
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So we've been doing this for uh four and a half, five years now.
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Okay.
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All right.
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So I always like to know the origin story of how someone became a fundraiser.
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And I don't think you're going to tell me what people tell me more these days, and that is I decided in high school and I went to college for it.
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Oh, please don't tell me that.
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No, that's not the answer at all, uh, Larry.
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How did I become a fundraiser?
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I went to school to be on the program side of things.
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My undergraduate degree is in the politics of African development, okay, of all the crazy things uh that you can have a degree in.
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Um, I met and married my wife.
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Her family is from East Africa and started working on international development projects.
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Okay.
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Very quickly, as like a 22, 23-year-old, realized the folks that I'm working with on these projects are way smarter than I ever have the ability or capability to become.
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And I ended up becoming the resource guy.
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Okay.
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Um, you got that, you got that, you got that.
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Okay, I guess my job is to go get money uh for this.
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So it happened by accident because of a deep love uh for the projects and the people and the places where we were working.
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Um, and then realized, okay, this is actually just as important as the program work.
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Because without the money, nothing happens on the program side.
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So if I truly love these people that we're serving, the best thing I can do for them is to learn how to do this fundraising shtick.
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And um, you said you've been doing how long in fun in fundraising have you been all together?
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25 years now.
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25, yeah, you told me 25 years.
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So at what point in your career did you realize that it's really about the donors?
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I'm gonna say year two or three and do it, okay?
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So, you know, years one and two, especially when you're young, like I was, okay?
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You're thinking hot shot, let's learn all the marketing stuff, let's put the let's put the pitches out there, let's get the messaging right.
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And by the way, those things are actually really important, okay?
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But the number one thing is that this is the donor's money and what their passions and priorities are matter more.
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Okay.
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I think the first way that I learned to articulate this, probably as a 25, 26 year old, um, imperfectly, obviously, was um if the donor cares about something else so deeply that they're gonna talk to me about it over coffee and we don't do it, and I know somebody who does it, I'm gonna put them in touch together.
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That was my first articulation of it.
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Okay.
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If we're not the right fit for them, I will put them in touch with somebody I think is.
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Um, because that's how quickly and how deeply I learned that it's all about them.
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You can't twist somebody's arm into giving.
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Okay.
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Maybe you can a little bit, but they're not gonna give a second time.
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They're not gonna give a third time, they're not gonna give you a, you know, biggest and best gift.
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It's about them and what they want.
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And yes, there's education in there, yes, there's brokering in there, yes, there's all these different things, but at the end of the day, you're helping them write the story of the type of person, business, foundation, family, what have you, that they're trying to become.
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Um I was gonna say that um if you most people will probably give you something, but it's something I call the hush and go away gift.
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Here it is, it's done.
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Please don't come back.
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Please don't come back.
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And um, but here's here's the irony.
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When people don't understand what you just said to me, and let's say it's a you know, it well, it happens all the time.
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They're speaking with someone and they're not aware of what's going on, and they do get a gift, and maybe it's ten thousand dollars, maybe it's fifty thousand dollars, and what they and they're so happy with that, what they don't understand, it should have been a half a million dollars.
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That's right.
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And so they were getting the equivalent of a hush and go-away gift, they're giving once, just don't come back.
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And um what do you think are the are the qualities uh that are required in a person who does fundraising professionally?
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Um, I get asked this question a lot, and my answer my first answer is always the same.
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It's curiosity.
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The person has to have a genuine sense of curiosity, of being curious about a person or a business or a foundation or a house of worship.
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Uh, they have to get to know them.
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And you don't get to know somebody unless you're curious about them.
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Okay.
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So I think curiosity is number one.
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Um, I think drive is number two, actually.
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Um, I don't think that you can teach somebody to wake up and think, how am I gonna go find five new people to have meetings with today?
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No amount of metrics, lead and lag indicators, KPIs, okay bars, none of it is gonna teach somebody how this to have Hutzpah, you know, every morning when they wake up.
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Um and I think that is so important because we're not talking about small problems, right?
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We're not talking about nice to do type things.
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We're talking about people who don't have homes, people who don't have foods, people who are refugees, displaced people in poverty, suffering under injustice.
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This isn't a nice thing to do, okay?
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If you want a nice career, go go in tech sales.
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I don't know, do something else.
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So then you're uh most of your career, and now that you have this firm, your clients are in the social service sector.
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Is that what exclusively, but very 90% have an end user that benefits from the programming.
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Um, that's not a higher ed student, that's not an arts, you know, uh patron, it's a a person at the end of it who is in need of some type of service.
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Okay.
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All right.
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I I'd add one other one other quality, and that would be emotional intelligence.
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That's right.
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It's a good ad.
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And being able to um perceive what's going on, being able to understand what the person is saying, what they're doing, you know, right down to the way they're sitting.
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One thing I tell people uh when I was when I was in this business directly in institutional life, uh, I would do it myself, and I would say to other giving officers, you want to have face-to-face meetings at your the the intent of the the potential donor in their in their uh environment on their turf.
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And they would say, why is that?
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Well, first of all, you don't want it in a restaurant, that's the worst possible place.
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You don't get anything done there.
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But when you meet on someone's own home space, if you're observant and you look around you, it will tell you a lot about the person.
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You know, what's in the room?
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Are there photographs of family?
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Are there books?
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Are there other things?
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You know, how is it arranged?
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You know, uh, have this has there been thought going into this office, usually if you're meeting if you're meeting business people.
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Oh, haven't thought of that.
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Well, yeah, and also it's a wonderful opportunity for a conversation starter, you know, like, oh, I see your pictures back there.
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Is that your family?
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Blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Oh, yeah, it is.
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You just get to know the perfect way.
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Absolutely of doing that.
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And so I always try to do it on the home turf.
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But yes, you have to have curiosity, James.
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Uh, you know, what really makes someone tick?
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Um, why are they, you know, why are they uh the way they are.
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Um, now I've had the I've met a lot of um uh uh leaders in business, uh, some scientists, a lot of be a lot of beaters in business that were scientists that are both scientists.
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And what I've discovered about those those people, uh they tend to be uh very much on time.
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They don't keep you waiting.
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You you you better not keep them waiting either.
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That that goes both ways.
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And then there they are themselves are very curious, and they are inveterate readers, James.
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They read constantly.
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I think I read a couple of years ago that Musk reads a couple of books a month.
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Um, now he's not exactly a person with nothing to do, all right, and yet he finds time for that.
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And the other thing I noticed, and this was back in the days when it wasn't online, James.
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Um every morning I stayed in hotels that usually delivered the Wall Street Journal to me.
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And I always made a point of scanning the journal before I went to my first meeting.
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More often than not, the person I was meeting had already read the article that I was bringing up.
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Now think about that.
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These are people who are incredibly busy, they don't waste a minute, and yet they have time to read this newspaper every morning because they know there's source material in there that they want to gain.
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So I just yeah, I that and I've enjoyed that immensely.
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Um, and the other thing is I met a number of I was young once, not now, but I was young once, and I met several people that were old enough to be my father, and um I learned a lot from those guys, and they were if you were curious, they were more than willing to share it with you too.
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Yeah, um, and I'm like, I'm sitting here, and this is true.
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I'm sitting here in the CEO's office at General Motors, and I have him for 90 minutes to myself.
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Oh my goodness, you know, well, I can learn from this guy, yeah.
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And and get to know him and what's important to him.
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And um, so anyway, but this this interview is about you, not me.
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But I just get I just love doing this work and uh still, but I like to share what my so your clients are mainly uh the social service sector related to that.
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Okay, it was is that on purpose or by accident, or I think it's on purpose, you know.
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And I think of I think all nonprofits serve a really valuable social, you know, solution to something.
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Okay.
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I love the arts, I love theater, I love if I could be a full-time student, I would probably be a full-time student.
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I love it.
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But at the end of the day, when there's people involved in it, moms who can't find meaningful employment, people who have been forced to flee their home, uh, poverty, hunger, those types of things, these are problems that governments have never been able to solve in the history of humanity, and that big business has never been able to monetize.
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Okay.
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I wonder why.
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We could have a whole interview on that.
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Keep going.
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Um so these are intractable generational problems, okay?
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And we are living through a period of human history, and this isn't political speak, this is just practical data speak over the past 20 years.
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There's been more upheaval than there has been in generations, okay.
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Part of that is just there's more of us, you know, than there was during the great world wars by a by an X factor, okay, by a multiple, uh, which is why you always hear this is the worst XYZ.
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Well, it's always going to be the worst.
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There's more of us right now.
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Second, there are more wars today.
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We're talking about this during the Iran, you know, war.
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Um uh, but there's more wars today that most of us don't follow: Congo, Sudan, Southeast Asia, uh, than ever before.
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You have more natural disasters happening, hurricanes, floods.
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You have greater gaps between the ultra-wealthy and the ultra poor than ever before.
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And so these are solutions, these are problems that don't have easy solutions.
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Okay.
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And if I'm gonna spend my life working with organizations and working with people to solve these, I want the problems to really matter.
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So that the solution to the problem also really matters.
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Okay.
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Um I'm gonna say something about that.
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Oh, yes.
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Let me shift just slightly.
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Um, now you have this is uh your own consulting firm.
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Now, are are you built on the same model as the legacy firms?
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Tell me what the legacy firms are built on, or what your view of that is built on.
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Well, it's it's called uh the dollars per second model.
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And what I mean by that is um the uh the the cost is generated on the length and how much space-time they have with you.
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No, so we're we're really unique, we're small, we think of ourselves as a boutique firm.
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Uh there's nine of us, and we prefer end-to-end solutions.
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Okay.
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If somebody needs, because of an innovation, because of a problem, 10 extra hours with us a week.
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We have clients in Lebanon right now, uh, again, war.
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Um, I'm not charging them extra because they need more FaceTime to figure out what to do in fundraising.
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And so then we have this agreement.
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Let's so they're so they're priced by project, and the amount of time is on your end is somewhat flexible because the goal is to get the project done.
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Correct.
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Okay.
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Now you said there are nine of you.
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Now, um, that's a pretty good sized firm, James.
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Um, do these people are these your friends and family or people that came to you, or you had to go search for them, or how did it work?
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Yeah, so I I as a rule, I don't do family hires ever.
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Um uh just never my wife and I said when we were young and got married, we're never gonna work together.
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Uh it's been almost 20 years and we've been we've been good to that.
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Um these are people that I have worked with in the industry firsthand.
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They've been on my teams before, or we've been colleagues, and I've seen that they provide an exceptional service.
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Okay.
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And what I have a deep belief in is that I don't want to rob the talent pool of nonprofits by taking their staff and having them become full-time consultants.
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Okay.
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I want them to stay embedded in these really amazing nonprofits that are providing transformational services uh to the world, but I know they can't do it at the at the price point those nonprofits are able or willing to pay right now.
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So I've chosen the best people that I have worked with, the best strategists, the best writers, the best, you know, data folks, and said, Hey, I know you want to stay at XYZ organization.
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I know you have an extra kid now, and it's probably really hard to do it.
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How about you do 20 hours with us, stay there, and you get to spread your wings and spread this amazing stuff that you know to other organizations doing great things, but we're not pulling you out of an organization that deeply needs your skills right now.
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Right.
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So then these are people who are working who are fully employed elsewhere, but are part-time or additional time with you.
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Correct.
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That's it, that's a different model.
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Uh, you get much pushback from uh organizational leadership?
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Uh they all have permission from their organizations.
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That's one of the requirements uh to work with us.
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Our clients all know that this is the case.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:18.160
Um, and it allows us to offer pricing that is more competitive uh because we're not carrying the overhead of full-time employees.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:18.799
Okay.
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:22.640
So um, and tell me about the uh the service portfolio.
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.519
What are what are the sort of things that I could come to you for?
00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:28.880
Yeah, so uh number one is strategy.
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:29.440
Okay.
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:34.400
People don't often know why they're getting the results that they're getting.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:47.359
And we like to go in and we call it our strategic fundraising accelerator, pull back the curtain, do a deep dive, and say, here's exactly why you're getting the results that you're getting, and here's what you can do to get better results.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.559
So this would be this would be like the classic audit.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.519
The legacy firms come in and they do this assessment.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.039
And so this would be something like that.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.359
It's classic like that, but we try to do it quick and down and dirty.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:05.839
So we're not charging people for six months of work when in reality it takes about eight weeks uh to do it.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:06.400
Okay.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:12.559
Um, so we do that, and then from there, we offer a number of different uh services.
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:26.160
Our most popular is a year-long uh do with you model where our team comes alongside an executive director, CEO, and their fundraising marketing team, and we actually help them to implement the things that we talked about.
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.720
Everything from major gifts to foundation to annual fund and everything in between.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.599
We're actually like right there with them every week helping them do it.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.359
Depending on where they are now.
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:47.920
Um, so I presume, I'm presuming here, you do this assessment, then is is there some sort of uh um um strategic or operating plan that comes out of that?
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:50.400
Yeah, so it's a very high-level one.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:58.960
We are big believers that 200 page 200 page binders or PDFs end up in a file or on the shelf, okay?
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:00.880
But but that's what informs your work.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:02.240
Where do we go next?
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:03.599
Where do we go next?
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:03.920
Correct.
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:05.039
Where are the holes?
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.720
What do we have to attend to?
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:07.920
Okay, all right.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.039
We tend to keep that at medium level, okay?
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.519
Uh, because things change as you go.
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.640
Uh yeah.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:15.440
Really?
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.359
They actually change, James.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:23.279
Let me tell you, I want to know when I've gone in there, bam, you know, what do you say to someone?
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:27.359
I I'm I'm not, I don't want I want to get away from this group, but I want to ask them.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:37.680
So, what's your response when the person, when the E D or someone says, Oh, we've always done it this way.
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.799
Or the other one, well, we've never done it that way before.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.480
How do you handle that?
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:50.000
I ask, do you want the same results that you've always had before, or do you want different results?
00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.799
But you know, and I know that a lot of that reluctance is pure emotion.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.559
It's this pure emotion.
00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:03.759
It's this lack of they're scared shitless to do something different.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:05.599
They don't understand it.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.400
And so, and Cynthia, here's something else.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.000
You know, fundraising is a relational business.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:12.960
I get it.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.960
That's how I've lived my career.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.079
However, it's a bottom line business.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:27.200
There's got to be um growth, there's got to be real income that develops, and they're and there are ways of measuring whether you're on the right track for that.
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:41.759
You know, not you know, I just I say to people all the time, goals are floors, they're not ceilings, but there are ways, and you know, there are ways to measure the capacity of a fundraiser capacity of an organization and see how you can grow it.
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:48.000
Now, it's been my experience in your in your vertical on the social services.
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:56.079
These people uh either don't understand that they're a business, or they actually have this aversion to the fact that they're a business.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:56.960
How do you deal with that?
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:58.640
Yeah, so we did.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.440
I'm gonna answer the question, but I'm gonna back up first because this is the question, okay?
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:15.839
Um we did a research project end of 2025, into 2026, where we interviewed and surveyed nonprofit leaders in this space, social services, human services, okay.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:22.000
Um and we found some amazing things that get at the problem you just mentioned.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:30.880
82% of them report that they can't sleep the night before a donor meeting because they are that afraid of it.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.400
Most of these leaders came from the program side of the house, right?
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.079
Program side of the shop.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:48.160
Um a lot of them have views on wealth that are probably not aligned with their donors because they've given their life and service to people, by and large, living in poverty.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.720
Okay.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:58.640
Number three, they feel that if a donor says no, then it's actually a condemnation of them as an individual.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440
Not that it is a I have a different priority.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.880
I care about trafficking and you're in food security.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.279
Uh they view it as a personal rebuke.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.839
And so we partner with the neuroscientist.
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:13.839
Well, the other thing about part of the brain.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:14.799
Oh, go ahead, Larry.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:21.920
Thing about that no, I tell people is first of all, the no's you get in this business are the nicest nose you'll ever get.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:22.880
All right.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:35.119
And they're often not, no, they are not for this thing, not in this way, not for this amount, not at this time.
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.680
You see, it's not personal unless they make it personal.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:23:01.440
You know, and uh the uh I'm gonna get to this, I want you to get to this other thing, but see uh a lot of these people in your sector, they don't really appreciate the fact that they're running a business that requires a workable funding model, you know, it's not a matter of going out with your handout and hoping for the best.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:03.839
And I know you're way beyond that.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:10.240
Um, and then you also you were very careful in politics, and I'll just say it because I'm running this podcast.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:16.000
There are a lot of people in your area that have very negative views of people with resources.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:28.000
They think they either got them somehow um, you know, um inappropriately or that they're not being generous, or yada yada yada, or just because they're uh have resources, they should be giving it away.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:39.039
I mean, the a lot of that's out there, and as you know, that is it is out there in the ether and it's a strong current in the and it's very counterproductive to engaging serious donors.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:49.200
Um, because you know, people who are who have means and who are philanthropically inclined, I don't mean the jerks, there are plenty of jerks, keep moving on.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:58.480
Okay, I'm talking about the people who philanthropically inclined, they feel a great responsibility to use this money wisely, correct?
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:12.319
And that they're looking for it to be productive in a way that they define what that means, you know, and then it it's it and that's it, they're being good stewards of what they've been given, you see.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:25.680
And by the way, in my in my career, and I've been in this a little longer than you, I have found what I call reverse snobbery far more commonplace than the other part.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.000
You know, oh he's rich, let's hold our nose.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:38.400
Oh no, no, it's the other way around, usually, you know, it's it is so we found actually three things that were really fascinating.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:47.599
One was the higher the stakes that the CEO thought that they were engaging with, the more anxious they were, which kind of makes sense, right?
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:56.880
Like if I'm trying to solve this problem, help these people, the higher the stakes, or the larger the growth ambitions, the more anxious they were about asking for money.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.799
Okay, that was number one.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.319
Number two, we partnered with a neuroscientist.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:17.839
And the same center of the brain that operates when you're about to anticipate physical pain, when you're about to go under for surgery, when you're about to get into a car accident, that same center of the brain was being activated before donor conversations.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:38.240
The brain, they were allowing their brains to wire itself so that donor conversations and the social no, the social threat of being told no was triggering the pain centers of their brain, the threat center of their brain, something that must be avoided at all at all costs, right?
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.640
And number three, and this gets to what you called reverse snobbery.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:43.920
No, I'm not saying that, folks.
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:45.039
Larry's saying that.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.559
Uh, but uh he is he's right about this.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:26:02.720
They were very afraid of telling stories of their program participants because they thought that it was not honoring to their program participants.
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:04.559
Oh, that is so upside down.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.400
So let's let's unpack this a little bit more because I'm passionate about this, okay?
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:10.960
But do you know who they never asked about it?
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:13.599
Okay.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:17.759
So the program participants, and I used to be in direct service for a long time.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.880
I know how this works.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.200
They don't want to be exploited for a dollar.
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:25.359
They don't want bad pictures of themselves being put out there on the internet.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:38.640
But I have never met a person who did not say, I would like, if it's possible, my story to be told so that others don't have to face the same thing I'm facing.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:54.880
And this reverse snobbery, okay, uh, this almost ivory tower elitism has kept people in the space from telling ethical stories about the work that they're doing in a way that a donor who wants to change the world can understand.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:55.519
Okay.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.200
Well, it's it's taking those people's agency away.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:26:59.920
Correct.
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:01.039
That's what it is.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.240
It's like, well, you don't understand, I'm gonna protect you from this big bad guy over here.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.000
And so, yeah.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:12.720
Uh I did a uh I I guess well, this was oh, it's been 10 years now.
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:19.599
I did a campaign for um a regional mental health uh system in Colorado.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:29.039
Uh they had a hospital and maybe 17 or 18 clinic sites, and they did everything from outpatient, inpatient, everything, drug rehab, everything.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:39.279
Uh, and uh we were doing a campaign, and of course, a part of that is to do uh small group meetings of pre-selected potential donors, uh usually in the donor's home.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:49.680
Uh, we're talking about people with significant ability, and the CEO, um, delightful lady, she was your classic uh social worker, same attitude.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:52.960
Oh, we can't possibly listen, Sharon, you've got to do this.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.119
And I said, trust me on this.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:19.039
And so, you know, we we got people that were, quote, ready for prime time and were willing to do this, and they get up there, and the first time she did it, um, we were in Vail, um, and I think I forget the guy's name, but uh, he was the lead guitarist on one of these heavy metal bands, and he was he was attending because his son had gotten into into drugs and he was he was interested in this.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:20.960
So, well, we put someone up there.
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:28.480
Uh, I forget this lady had um you know tried to kill herself two or three times, and finally they were able to correct the issue, and she got out on her own.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:33.359
When she was done, there wasn't a dry eye in the place.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.920
There was so much silence there and the impact of what that had.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:40.720
Well, let me tell you, that turned Sharon into a maniac.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.200
Then she was like, Okay, this is what we're gonna do.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:53.519
And she she was raising money hand over fist, that she connected, she understood what the need was, and she put the people in their position where they could understand it as well.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:29:00.240
You see, that's what it was all about, and then and then the person loved telling their story because then they were validated.
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:02.559
Look, look where I've come from.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:08.079
I've come from near death, and it was this group, this mental health holidays that put me there.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:10.799
Wow, and then she was eternally grateful.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:12.160
There you go.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.319
There you go.
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.640
Don't take people's agency away, let them be themselves.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:19.519
Don't do it.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:20.400
No.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.039
So um, do you do capital campaigns?
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.079
We do capital campaigns every once in a while.
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:38.480
When we built the company, there was a sense that there was enough capital campaign uh consultants out there, so we wanted to get into the the longer-term brick and mortar, you know, uh everyday fundraising activities.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:47.279
So, what's the um what and I know there's nothing that's typical, but but what is the typically uh the length of your engagements with the cut with the client?
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.759
Yeah, about 12 to 18 months is our typical.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:50.400
Okay.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:58.160
It's enough that you actually can build something meaningful, uh, but not so long that you get stale and bored of each other.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:05.920
Now, you've got, I'm just curious how you do this.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:13.440
You you're working people part-time, all right, and do they ever make physical visits to the client or is it all virtual?
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:14.319
How does it work?
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:26.720
Yeah, so we very rarely go on site, and one of the reasons why is that many of our clients are already distributed geographically, so they have their staff spread out all over the country or all over the world.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:27.200
Okay.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:32.559
Um, so I can think of only a handful that have headquarters uh anymore.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.079
Um, the rest have pretty virtual cultures.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:47.200
So um what what's the typical um size organization in terms of uh uh how much money they're currently raising andor uh total program revenue?
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.079
What's this typical?
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.960
Our typical clients are in the two and a half million to 15 million space.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.319
Or uh fundraising or overall operations?
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.599
For overall private revenue, not including government grants.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:02.799
Okay, no, that's a that's a Faustan bargain.
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:13.119
Um and you were uh I wanted this just came to me when you said um uh well in all these all these histories, you know, uh government hasn't solved these problems, blah blah blah.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:18.640
Reminds me, and you're not are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan?
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:20.720
Yes, okay, all right.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.039
I'm also a Washington, so okay.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:33.599
Well, one of his one of his favorite lines was if a man comes to you and says, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you, his response is run like hell.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:43.200
Because you the person needs to have a solution that comes from them.
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:57.200
You see, having something imposed on them from the outside never solves the problem, and uh, but something that they can create on their own, and then that they can use private funding or organic funding to do that.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:59.599
Um, now what do you think about this?
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.200
Uh, do you do you know the guy, a man by the name of Russell James?
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:05.599
I've heard of him, but I don't know much.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:28.000
Well, Russell James is a good friend of mine, but but more importantly, he's a very, very thorough um um uh statistician in the philanthropic community, and he's done all this study on uh where where wealth is, how it's engaged, you know, and and and back the way we've used him here at the A Principles to demonstrate some of the things we do, but that's a different question.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:33.920
But here's one thing he said, and and if you're interested, I can provide you an introduction with Russell, he's a nice guy.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:50.559
Uh overall, for any nonprofit organization, anyone, okay, not the whole sector, they're only accessing about 15% of the funds that are actually available to them.
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:52.160
Think about that.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.720
I I would buy that any day.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.480
That sounds about right to me.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:05.200
And and the primary reason for that, he says, is that number one, they're they're going for short-term cash, they're bottom feeding.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:08.640
And so those gifts will only get so large.
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:13.039
And because most of the wealth is not in cash, it's in assets.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:27.039
And so unless you're engaging assets uh which take a higher level of relationship, a longer relationship, uh uh, you're not getting anywhere close to what you could raise if you want to.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:39.680
And I suspect, correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that your clients, not that a good number of your clients would be afraid of assets.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.440
They wouldn't know how to deal with them.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:42.640
Am I right?
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.519
You are absolutely wrong about that, actually.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:46.960
All right, well then fill me in.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.599
Yeah, so they they are not afraid of it.
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:55.039
They want it at the same time when you have a person in front of you.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.880
Cash now is better than a bequest in 20 years.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:33:59.440
Okay.
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.920
So they're trying to assets or other assets, I think.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:10.960
Yeah, they are trying to thread the needle, right, with the money they need today to serve the people they have in front of them.
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:14.320
Um, with the how do we build the future?
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:14.880
Okay.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.960
And there's some horror stories out there, right?
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:25.360
Hundred million dollar capital campaigns that were all asset-based, and at the end of the campaign, there's no money to do the work next year.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.840
Uh, so there are some big horror stories out there.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.840
I try to teach them that they need to create blended portfolios with donors.
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:32.400
Okay.
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:43.920
Part of it has to be cash, part of it has to be stocks and bonds, part of it has to be other assets that they have, which is why they have to have a horizon of 10, 15, 20, 25 years.
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:44.719
Oh, yes.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:48.960
You're not trying to build a one and done relationship to extract resource.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:52.320
And usually these relationships start out in cash.
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:56.960
People aren't getting uh their their non-cash assets right away.
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:57.440
Okay.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:07.599
But it's very, even for a guy my age, it would not be unheard of for me to say, okay, here's your cash gift this year.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:16.480
And oh, by the way, you're a beneficiary of a life insurance policy or a will or uh, you know, whatever.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:25.440
Um, and I think that the more people get accustomed to the both and nature of plan giving, the better they'll become.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:31.440
I don't like when people uh pit cash versus assets because actually the organizations need both.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:33.280
Uh they need cash gifts now.
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:41.360
Uh so I always tell them blended portfolio over time, uh, with the the larger asset gifts coming later in the relationship.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:46.079
Well, it's as you said, you heard the it's what I call the tyranny of the urgent.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.400
I'll take a cash gift now, thank you.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:50.639
Now, what you really want is both.
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:59.840
Um, you want what what they can give now, uh, because it's uh uh giving is a habit, being connected is a habit.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:18.559
You want to get that relationship, but then the the asset gifts be it a um um uh a material asset, uh tradable securities, real estate, whatever it might be, uh, and then there's the other pieces, the the trusts and the and the insurance and all that, uh, that comes later.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:28.159
And so have you found that most of your clients uh are willing to uh create the infrastructure it takes to process those gifts?
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:33.440
Yeah, so on the on the smaller side, they're very willing for the brokerage account type thing.
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:47.199
And then I find that it's not until they get to be about five and a half to six million in in revenue that they start saying, oh wow, I really need to create much better infrastructure uh for more complex gifts.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:51.440
And we have a list of preferred partners that can help them, help them do that.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.800
Okay, all right.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:37:01.599
Well, I live out in the uh in the Boise Valley, and we've had a lot of growth in the last, well, since I've been here 20 years.
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:02.960
Oh, 20 years.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:12.239
And so there's a lot of land here uh that has been farmland for a long, long time that's now being developed for one reason or the other.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:20.320
And so you essentially have zero basis land sitting out there that's tripled, quadrupled, quintupled in value.
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:23.519
All right, and so um you'll find this interesting.
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:25.199
This was a few years ago.
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:35.599
I was uh I was asked to work with a uh uh uh independent school on their capital campaign, and I came in kind of midstream, James.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.960
So I would have this would have never happened if I'd been in the beginning.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:49.199
But they had some farmers that were get this selling selling, hold on a minute.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:06.400
Okay, oh he's leaving a voicemail, good um that were selling selling zero basis land and giving the proceeds to the school.
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:13.840
I was like, what you're doing, what and the school was accepting this, they didn't know any better.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:21.440
And and the true irony of this is these guys, James, were very conservative Dutch farmers.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:33.039
Taxes, I don't pay taxes, and so at the end of that tax year, when the tax man came came calling, well, all of us income tax, capital gains, all these things.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:36.960
And I just think no, all they had to do was give it to the school.
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.840
Well, then then what do we do with it?
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:45.360
Well, you can do anything you want to with it, you can sell it and use the procedure and do anything you want with it, you see.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:49.679
Oh well, see, there was this lack of sophistication, lack of knowledge, yeah.
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.719
In dealing with that, and so I don't know what happened.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.199
I said stop right now, don't do any more of that.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.239
Inform your people you don't want them to sell anything because it was it was zero basis, James.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:03.199
You know, essentially, yeah.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:10.159
So, well, we've covered a lot of territory, but I always give you the top opportunity to add something.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:13.440
So, what would you like to add that we haven't talked about?
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:18.719
I know you're a nice guy, so we don't have to sell that anymore, but what would you like to add?
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:24.000
Yeah, you asked me in the beginning the traits that I think make a great fundraiser.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.760
I want to add to it as we close.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:26.400
Sure.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:29.840
And I think I would add courage to the list, yeah.
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:30.400
Okay.
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:35.840
Um, the world we live in is not the easiest world, you know, out there uh right now.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:42.400
The political divides, the cultural divides, social, there's just a lot that tear people apart.
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:47.280
And fundraising at its core is about bringing people together to solve big challenges.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:53.360
It should be so to the curiosity, to the drive, to all the things that we mentioned, courage.
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:58.159
Uh, I don't want people listening to lose heart because something is hard for a season.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:58.559
Okay.
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:10.079
Stick with it, get five percent better every year, learn as you go, get out there and do the work, and things start paying off.
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:18.880
Well, if you can manage to get five percent better every year, I mean you're gonna be at the top of your game in five years.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.239
Yeah, do it.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:23.519
Okay.
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:28.559
I try to get five percent more productivity out of my farm every year.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.039
Okay.
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:30.239
Why wouldn't I?
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.599
By by pruning, by cutting, by fertilizer, by weed control, you know, all these different things.
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:40.880
That's a farm where I sell flowers for fun to like florists and wedding planners, okay?
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:47.360
It's uh it's a you know, on-the-side hustle that maybe will help me put my kids through college one day.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:48.719
Uh, we'll see.
00:40:49.280 --> 00:41:02.719
If I'm trying to get five percent better at that, and you, nonprofit leader that's listening, are solving one of those intractable problems in the world, you better be trying to get at least five percent better every year.
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:06.159
All right, okay, James.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.119
Well, I've just thoroughly enjoyed this.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:10.639
This has been a lot of fun.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:11.440
It has been.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:12.639
Thanks for having me on, Larry.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:13.920
Well, it's my pleasure.
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:18.400
Um, if uh send me an email if you want an introduction to Russell.
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:22.719
Uh, he's lit, he's out in Texas, and he'll share all of his information with you.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:24.480
He's really, really open about that.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:35.039
So well, you know, I've had the delightful conversation with James Miss Meissner, and uh and I want to thank him for agreeing to be my guest today.
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:39.199
And I also want to thank you, the audience, for taking some time to tune in.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.760
Uh, you know, we're on um YouTube and we're also on the audio channels.
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.000
So again, thank you.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:51.840
Next time, somebody thank you for listening today.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:57.519
Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.239
Guest comments and opinions are their own.
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:05.119
The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.
00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:04.400
Welcome to Eight Principles Voices.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:07.519
Conversations with those who are making a difference.
00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.919
I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles.
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Now join me as I welcome this week's guest, as they invite us to come along on their journey.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:19.359
Hello, everybody.
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It's Larry Johnson, your host for A Principles Voices.
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And I'm really thrilled to have with me today James Meisser.
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I think that's how he pronounces his name.
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James, is that right?
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That's right.
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Okay.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:36.399
And and James is a kind of a cool dude because he's got his priorities in the right order.
00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.159
Number one, he says he's a he says he's a father.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.159
Uh, how many kids do you have, James?
00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:44.880
We have three, 10, 8, and 5.
00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:46.240
Oh, that's wonderful.
00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:48.240
And then he also is the founder.
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:48.960
Oh no.
00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:54.000
Secondly, he runs a cut flower farm, which is which he's growing.
00:00:54.240 --> 00:01:00.320
And then thirdly, he's talking about what we're going to talk about today, and that is his company, Keepos.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:05.599
Now, I know when we talked before, uh, James, you told me what kepos meant.
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.920
And I know it's a Greek word, a Greek term.
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Enlighten me again.
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.640
Enlighten our audience.
00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:11.120
Yeah.
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So kepos is the Greek word for garden.
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:14.239
Okay.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.040
And so kind of fits with the farming, you know, thing.
00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:17.840
Of course it does.
00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:18.879
Just a little bit.
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Um, I've been a professional fundraiser uh for 25 years now.
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And deeply truly believe that the best way to do it is to help organizations and their audience, their donor base, grow things that are beautiful out of their relationship together.
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Okay.
00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:43.920
So it's not just about extracting resource, it's about co-creating something uh that brings beauty and food and rest and peace uh into the world.
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Okay.
00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:47.280
Well, that uh that floats my boat.
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All right.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:49.359
And how long have you been doing this?
00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:52.719
So we've been doing this for uh four and a half, five years now.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:53.359
Okay.
00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:54.560
All right.
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So I always like to know the origin story of how someone became a fundraiser.
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:06.879
And I don't think you're going to tell me what people tell me more these days, and that is I decided in high school and I went to college for it.
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.400
Oh, please don't tell me that.
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No, that's not the answer at all, uh, Larry.
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How did I become a fundraiser?
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I went to school to be on the program side of things.
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My undergraduate degree is in the politics of African development, okay, of all the crazy things uh that you can have a degree in.
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Um, I met and married my wife.
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Her family is from East Africa and started working on international development projects.
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Okay.
00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:48.080
Very quickly, as like a 22, 23-year-old, realized the folks that I'm working with on these projects are way smarter than I ever have the ability or capability to become.
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And I ended up becoming the resource guy.
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Okay.
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Um, you got that, you got that, you got that.
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Okay, I guess my job is to go get money uh for this.
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So it happened by accident because of a deep love uh for the projects and the people and the places where we were working.
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Um, and then realized, okay, this is actually just as important as the program work.
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Because without the money, nothing happens on the program side.
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So if I truly love these people that we're serving, the best thing I can do for them is to learn how to do this fundraising shtick.
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And um, you said you've been doing how long in fun in fundraising have you been all together?
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25 years now.
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25, yeah, you told me 25 years.
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So at what point in your career did you realize that it's really about the donors?
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I'm gonna say year two or three and do it, okay?
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So, you know, years one and two, especially when you're young, like I was, okay?
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You're thinking hot shot, let's learn all the marketing stuff, let's put the let's put the pitches out there, let's get the messaging right.
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And by the way, those things are actually really important, okay?
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But the number one thing is that this is the donor's money and what their passions and priorities are matter more.
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:10.240
Okay.
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I think the first way that I learned to articulate this, probably as a 25, 26 year old, um, imperfectly, obviously, was um if the donor cares about something else so deeply that they're gonna talk to me about it over coffee and we don't do it, and I know somebody who does it, I'm gonna put them in touch together.
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That was my first articulation of it.
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Okay.
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If we're not the right fit for them, I will put them in touch with somebody I think is.
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Um, because that's how quickly and how deeply I learned that it's all about them.
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You can't twist somebody's arm into giving.
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Okay.
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Maybe you can a little bit, but they're not gonna give a second time.
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They're not gonna give a third time, they're not gonna give you a, you know, biggest and best gift.
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It's about them and what they want.
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And yes, there's education in there, yes, there's brokering in there, yes, there's all these different things, but at the end of the day, you're helping them write the story of the type of person, business, foundation, family, what have you, that they're trying to become.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:27.279
Um I was gonna say that um if you most people will probably give you something, but it's something I call the hush and go away gift.
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Here it is, it's done.
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Please don't come back.
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Please don't come back.
00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:34.000
And um, but here's here's the irony.
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When people don't understand what you just said to me, and let's say it's a you know, it well, it happens all the time.
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They're speaking with someone and they're not aware of what's going on, and they do get a gift, and maybe it's ten thousand dollars, maybe it's fifty thousand dollars, and what they and they're so happy with that, what they don't understand, it should have been a half a million dollars.
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That's right.
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And so they were getting the equivalent of a hush and go-away gift, they're giving once, just don't come back.
00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:14.560
And um what do you think are the are the qualities uh that are required in a person who does fundraising professionally?
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:20.240
Um, I get asked this question a lot, and my answer my first answer is always the same.
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:21.360
It's curiosity.
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The person has to have a genuine sense of curiosity, of being curious about a person or a business or a foundation or a house of worship.
00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:31.040
Uh, they have to get to know them.
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And you don't get to know somebody unless you're curious about them.
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Okay.
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:37.759
So I think curiosity is number one.
00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.519
Um, I think drive is number two, actually.
00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:52.959
Um, I don't think that you can teach somebody to wake up and think, how am I gonna go find five new people to have meetings with today?
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No amount of metrics, lead and lag indicators, KPIs, okay bars, none of it is gonna teach somebody how this to have Hutzpah, you know, every morning when they wake up.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:10.160
Um and I think that is so important because we're not talking about small problems, right?
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.439
We're not talking about nice to do type things.
00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:22.639
We're talking about people who don't have homes, people who don't have foods, people who are refugees, displaced people in poverty, suffering under injustice.
00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:24.639
This isn't a nice thing to do, okay?
00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:28.399
If you want a nice career, go go in tech sales.
00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:29.680
I don't know, do something else.
00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:36.160
So then you're uh most of your career, and now that you have this firm, your clients are in the social service sector.
00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:43.120
Is that what exclusively, but very 90% have an end user that benefits from the programming.
00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:53.199
Um, that's not a higher ed student, that's not an arts, you know, uh patron, it's a a person at the end of it who is in need of some type of service.
00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:53.839
Okay.
00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:54.480
All right.
00:07:54.639 --> 00:08:00.000
I I'd add one other one other quality, and that would be emotional intelligence.
00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:00.959
That's right.
00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:01.920
It's a good ad.
00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:12.720
And being able to um perceive what's going on, being able to understand what the person is saying, what they're doing, you know, right down to the way they're sitting.
00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:34.879
One thing I tell people uh when I was when I was in this business directly in institutional life, uh, I would do it myself, and I would say to other giving officers, you want to have face-to-face meetings at your the the intent of the the potential donor in their in their uh environment on their turf.
00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:36.240
And they would say, why is that?
00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:39.120
Well, first of all, you don't want it in a restaurant, that's the worst possible place.
00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:40.639
You don't get anything done there.
00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:50.720
But when you meet on someone's own home space, if you're observant and you look around you, it will tell you a lot about the person.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:52.639
You know, what's in the room?
00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.720
Are there photographs of family?
00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:55.840
Are there books?
00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:56.960
Are there other things?
00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:58.799
You know, how is it arranged?
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:05.039
You know, uh, have this has there been thought going into this office, usually if you're meeting if you're meeting business people.
00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:06.480
Oh, haven't thought of that.
00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:13.279
Well, yeah, and also it's a wonderful opportunity for a conversation starter, you know, like, oh, I see your pictures back there.
00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:14.000
Is that your family?
00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:14.799
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:15.600
Oh, yeah, it is.
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.080
You just get to know the perfect way.
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.240
Absolutely of doing that.
00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.799
And so I always try to do it on the home turf.
00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.559
But yes, you have to have curiosity, James.
00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:29.600
Uh, you know, what really makes someone tick?
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:34.720
Um, why are they, you know, why are they uh the way they are.
00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:46.320
Um, now I've had the I've met a lot of um uh uh leaders in business, uh, some scientists, a lot of be a lot of beaters in business that were scientists that are both scientists.
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:52.879
And what I've discovered about those those people, uh they tend to be uh very much on time.
00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:54.399
They don't keep you waiting.
00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.039
You you you better not keep them waiting either.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:58.720
That that goes both ways.
00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:06.399
And then there they are themselves are very curious, and they are inveterate readers, James.
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:08.320
They read constantly.
00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:13.679
I think I read a couple of years ago that Musk reads a couple of books a month.
00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:20.720
Um, now he's not exactly a person with nothing to do, all right, and yet he finds time for that.
00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:26.000
And the other thing I noticed, and this was back in the days when it wasn't online, James.
00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:32.879
Um every morning I stayed in hotels that usually delivered the Wall Street Journal to me.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:37.600
And I always made a point of scanning the journal before I went to my first meeting.
00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:44.879
More often than not, the person I was meeting had already read the article that I was bringing up.
00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:46.639
Now think about that.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:55.679
These are people who are incredibly busy, they don't waste a minute, and yet they have time to read this newspaper every morning because they know there's source material in there that they want to gain.
00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:59.200
So I just yeah, I that and I've enjoyed that immensely.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:17.360
Um, and the other thing is I met a number of I was young once, not now, but I was young once, and I met several people that were old enough to be my father, and um I learned a lot from those guys, and they were if you were curious, they were more than willing to share it with you too.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:21.519
Yeah, um, and I'm like, I'm sitting here, and this is true.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:28.159
I'm sitting here in the CEO's office at General Motors, and I have him for 90 minutes to myself.
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.320
Oh my goodness, you know, well, I can learn from this guy, yeah.
00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:35.919
And and get to know him and what's important to him.
00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.600
And um, so anyway, but this this interview is about you, not me.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:50.799
But I just get I just love doing this work and uh still, but I like to share what my so your clients are mainly uh the social service sector related to that.
00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:56.639
Okay, it was is that on purpose or by accident, or I think it's on purpose, you know.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:05.759
And I think of I think all nonprofits serve a really valuable social, you know, solution to something.
00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:06.159
Okay.
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:11.840
I love the arts, I love theater, I love if I could be a full-time student, I would probably be a full-time student.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:12.879
I love it.
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:35.039
But at the end of the day, when there's people involved in it, moms who can't find meaningful employment, people who have been forced to flee their home, uh, poverty, hunger, those types of things, these are problems that governments have never been able to solve in the history of humanity, and that big business has never been able to monetize.
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:35.600
Okay.
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:37.039
I wonder why.
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:38.559
We could have a whole interview on that.
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:40.080
Keep going.
00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:44.799
Um so these are intractable generational problems, okay?
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:54.480
And we are living through a period of human history, and this isn't political speak, this is just practical data speak over the past 20 years.
00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:59.039
There's been more upheaval than there has been in generations, okay.
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:10.159
Part of that is just there's more of us, you know, than there was during the great world wars by a by an X factor, okay, by a multiple, uh, which is why you always hear this is the worst XYZ.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:11.679
Well, it's always going to be the worst.
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:13.279
There's more of us right now.
00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:16.000
Second, there are more wars today.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.440
We're talking about this during the Iran, you know, war.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:27.759
Um uh, but there's more wars today that most of us don't follow: Congo, Sudan, Southeast Asia, uh, than ever before.
00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:32.000
You have more natural disasters happening, hurricanes, floods.
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:39.120
You have greater gaps between the ultra-wealthy and the ultra poor than ever before.
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.279
And so these are solutions, these are problems that don't have easy solutions.
00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:43.759
Okay.
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:51.279
And if I'm gonna spend my life working with organizations and working with people to solve these, I want the problems to really matter.
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:54.559
So that the solution to the problem also really matters.
00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:55.120
Okay.
00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.720
Um I'm gonna say something about that.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:13:59.840
Oh, yes.
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:01.840
Let me shift just slightly.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.159
Um, now you have this is uh your own consulting firm.
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:10.080
Now, are are you built on the same model as the legacy firms?
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.039
Tell me what the legacy firms are built on, or what your view of that is built on.
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.759
Well, it's it's called uh the dollars per second model.
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:26.000
And what I mean by that is um the uh the the cost is generated on the length and how much space-time they have with you.
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:32.000
No, so we're we're really unique, we're small, we think of ourselves as a boutique firm.
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:37.279
Uh there's nine of us, and we prefer end-to-end solutions.
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:37.759
Okay.
00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:46.559
If somebody needs, because of an innovation, because of a problem, 10 extra hours with us a week.
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.159
We have clients in Lebanon right now, uh, again, war.
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.960
Um, I'm not charging them extra because they need more FaceTime to figure out what to do in fundraising.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:58.960
And so then we have this agreement.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:08.159
Let's so they're so they're priced by project, and the amount of time is on your end is somewhat flexible because the goal is to get the project done.
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:08.720
Correct.
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:09.039
Okay.
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:10.960
Now you said there are nine of you.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.000
Now, um, that's a pretty good sized firm, James.
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:21.120
Um, do these people are these your friends and family or people that came to you, or you had to go search for them, or how did it work?
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:25.200
Yeah, so I I as a rule, I don't do family hires ever.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:31.759
Um uh just never my wife and I said when we were young and got married, we're never gonna work together.
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.840
Uh it's been almost 20 years and we've been we've been good to that.
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:40.240
Um these are people that I have worked with in the industry firsthand.
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:47.440
They've been on my teams before, or we've been colleagues, and I've seen that they provide an exceptional service.
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:48.000
Okay.
00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:59.919
And what I have a deep belief in is that I don't want to rob the talent pool of nonprofits by taking their staff and having them become full-time consultants.
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:00.480
Okay.
00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:16.960
I want them to stay embedded in these really amazing nonprofits that are providing transformational services uh to the world, but I know they can't do it at the at the price point those nonprofits are able or willing to pay right now.
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:28.639
So I've chosen the best people that I have worked with, the best strategists, the best writers, the best, you know, data folks, and said, Hey, I know you want to stay at XYZ organization.
00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:32.320
I know you have an extra kid now, and it's probably really hard to do it.
00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:48.159
How about you do 20 hours with us, stay there, and you get to spread your wings and spread this amazing stuff that you know to other organizations doing great things, but we're not pulling you out of an organization that deeply needs your skills right now.
00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:48.559
Right.
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:55.120
So then these are people who are working who are fully employed elsewhere, but are part-time or additional time with you.
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:55.519
Correct.
00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:57.279
That's it, that's a different model.
00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:01.679
Uh, you get much pushback from uh organizational leadership?
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.480
Uh they all have permission from their organizations.
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.880
That's one of the requirements uh to work with us.
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.000
Our clients all know that this is the case.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:18.160
Um, and it allows us to offer pricing that is more competitive uh because we're not carrying the overhead of full-time employees.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:18.799
Okay.
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:22.640
So um, and tell me about the uh the service portfolio.
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.519
What are what are the sort of things that I could come to you for?
00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:28.880
Yeah, so uh number one is strategy.
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:29.440
Okay.
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:34.400
People don't often know why they're getting the results that they're getting.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:47.359
And we like to go in and we call it our strategic fundraising accelerator, pull back the curtain, do a deep dive, and say, here's exactly why you're getting the results that you're getting, and here's what you can do to get better results.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.559
So this would be this would be like the classic audit.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.519
The legacy firms come in and they do this assessment.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.039
And so this would be something like that.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.359
It's classic like that, but we try to do it quick and down and dirty.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:05.839
So we're not charging people for six months of work when in reality it takes about eight weeks uh to do it.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:06.400
Okay.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:12.559
Um, so we do that, and then from there, we offer a number of different uh services.
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:26.160
Our most popular is a year-long uh do with you model where our team comes alongside an executive director, CEO, and their fundraising marketing team, and we actually help them to implement the things that we talked about.
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.720
Everything from major gifts to foundation to annual fund and everything in between.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.599
We're actually like right there with them every week helping them do it.
00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.359
Depending on where they are now.
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:47.920
Um, so I presume, I'm presuming here, you do this assessment, then is is there some sort of uh um um strategic or operating plan that comes out of that?
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:50.400
Yeah, so it's a very high-level one.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:58.960
We are big believers that 200 page 200 page binders or PDFs end up in a file or on the shelf, okay?
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:00.880
But but that's what informs your work.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:02.240
Where do we go next?
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:03.599
Where do we go next?
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:03.920
Correct.
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:05.039
Where are the holes?
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.720
What do we have to attend to?
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:07.920
Okay, all right.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.039
We tend to keep that at medium level, okay?
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.519
Uh, because things change as you go.
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:14.640
Uh yeah.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:15.440
Really?
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.359
They actually change, James.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:23.279
Let me tell you, I want to know when I've gone in there, bam, you know, what do you say to someone?
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:27.359
I I'm I'm not, I don't want I want to get away from this group, but I want to ask them.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:37.680
So, what's your response when the person, when the E D or someone says, Oh, we've always done it this way.
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.799
Or the other one, well, we've never done it that way before.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.480
How do you handle that?
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:50.000
I ask, do you want the same results that you've always had before, or do you want different results?
00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.799
But you know, and I know that a lot of that reluctance is pure emotion.
00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.559
It's this pure emotion.
00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:03.759
It's this lack of they're scared shitless to do something different.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:05.599
They don't understand it.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.400
And so, and Cynthia, here's something else.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.000
You know, fundraising is a relational business.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:12.960
I get it.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.960
That's how I've lived my career.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.079
However, it's a bottom line business.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:27.200
There's got to be um growth, there's got to be real income that develops, and they're and there are ways of measuring whether you're on the right track for that.
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:41.759
You know, not you know, I just I say to people all the time, goals are floors, they're not ceilings, but there are ways, and you know, there are ways to measure the capacity of a fundraiser capacity of an organization and see how you can grow it.
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:48.000
Now, it's been my experience in your in your vertical on the social services.
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:56.079
These people uh either don't understand that they're a business, or they actually have this aversion to the fact that they're a business.
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:56.960
How do you deal with that?
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:58.640
Yeah, so we did.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.440
I'm gonna answer the question, but I'm gonna back up first because this is the question, okay?
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:15.839
Um we did a research project end of 2025, into 2026, where we interviewed and surveyed nonprofit leaders in this space, social services, human services, okay.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:22.000
Um and we found some amazing things that get at the problem you just mentioned.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:30.880
82% of them report that they can't sleep the night before a donor meeting because they are that afraid of it.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.400
Most of these leaders came from the program side of the house, right?
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.079
Program side of the shop.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:48.160
Um a lot of them have views on wealth that are probably not aligned with their donors because they've given their life and service to people, by and large, living in poverty.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:48.720
Okay.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:58.640
Number three, they feel that if a donor says no, then it's actually a condemnation of them as an individual.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.440
Not that it is a I have a different priority.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.880
I care about trafficking and you're in food security.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.279
Uh they view it as a personal rebuke.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.839
And so we partner with the neuroscientist.
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:13.839
Well, the other thing about part of the brain.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:14.799
Oh, go ahead, Larry.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:21.920
Thing about that no, I tell people is first of all, the no's you get in this business are the nicest nose you'll ever get.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:22.880
All right.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:35.119
And they're often not, no, they are not for this thing, not in this way, not for this amount, not at this time.
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:39.680
You see, it's not personal unless they make it personal.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:23:01.440
You know, and uh the uh I'm gonna get to this, I want you to get to this other thing, but see uh a lot of these people in your sector, they don't really appreciate the fact that they're running a business that requires a workable funding model, you know, it's not a matter of going out with your handout and hoping for the best.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:03.839
And I know you're way beyond that.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:10.240
Um, and then you also you were very careful in politics, and I'll just say it because I'm running this podcast.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:16.000
There are a lot of people in your area that have very negative views of people with resources.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:28.000
They think they either got them somehow um, you know, um inappropriately or that they're not being generous, or yada yada yada, or just because they're uh have resources, they should be giving it away.
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:39.039
I mean, the a lot of that's out there, and as you know, that is it is out there in the ether and it's a strong current in the and it's very counterproductive to engaging serious donors.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:49.200
Um, because you know, people who are who have means and who are philanthropically inclined, I don't mean the jerks, there are plenty of jerks, keep moving on.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:58.480
Okay, I'm talking about the people who philanthropically inclined, they feel a great responsibility to use this money wisely, correct?
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:12.319
And that they're looking for it to be productive in a way that they define what that means, you know, and then it it's it and that's it, they're being good stewards of what they've been given, you see.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:25.680
And by the way, in my in my career, and I've been in this a little longer than you, I have found what I call reverse snobbery far more commonplace than the other part.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.000
You know, oh he's rich, let's hold our nose.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:38.400
Oh no, no, it's the other way around, usually, you know, it's it is so we found actually three things that were really fascinating.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:47.599
One was the higher the stakes that the CEO thought that they were engaging with, the more anxious they were, which kind of makes sense, right?
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:56.880
Like if I'm trying to solve this problem, help these people, the higher the stakes, or the larger the growth ambitions, the more anxious they were about asking for money.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:58.799
Okay, that was number one.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.319
Number two, we partnered with a neuroscientist.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:17.839
And the same center of the brain that operates when you're about to anticipate physical pain, when you're about to go under for surgery, when you're about to get into a car accident, that same center of the brain was being activated before donor conversations.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:38.240
The brain, they were allowing their brains to wire itself so that donor conversations and the social no, the social threat of being told no was triggering the pain centers of their brain, the threat center of their brain, something that must be avoided at all at all costs, right?
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.640
And number three, and this gets to what you called reverse snobbery.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:43.920
No, I'm not saying that, folks.
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:45.039
Larry's saying that.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.559
Uh, but uh he is he's right about this.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:26:02.720
They were very afraid of telling stories of their program participants because they thought that it was not honoring to their program participants.
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:04.559
Oh, that is so upside down.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.400
So let's let's unpack this a little bit more because I'm passionate about this, okay?
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:10.960
But do you know who they never asked about it?
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:13.599
Okay.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:17.759
So the program participants, and I used to be in direct service for a long time.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.880
I know how this works.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.200
They don't want to be exploited for a dollar.
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:25.359
They don't want bad pictures of themselves being put out there on the internet.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:38.640
But I have never met a person who did not say, I would like, if it's possible, my story to be told so that others don't have to face the same thing I'm facing.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:54.880
And this reverse snobbery, okay, uh, this almost ivory tower elitism has kept people in the space from telling ethical stories about the work that they're doing in a way that a donor who wants to change the world can understand.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:55.519
Okay.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.200
Well, it's it's taking those people's agency away.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:26:59.920
Correct.
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:01.039
That's what it is.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.240
It's like, well, you don't understand, I'm gonna protect you from this big bad guy over here.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.000
And so, yeah.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:12.720
Uh I did a uh I I guess well, this was oh, it's been 10 years now.
00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:19.599
I did a campaign for um a regional mental health uh system in Colorado.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:29.039
Uh they had a hospital and maybe 17 or 18 clinic sites, and they did everything from outpatient, inpatient, everything, drug rehab, everything.
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:39.279
Uh, and uh we were doing a campaign, and of course, a part of that is to do uh small group meetings of pre-selected potential donors, uh usually in the donor's home.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:49.680
Uh, we're talking about people with significant ability, and the CEO, um, delightful lady, she was your classic uh social worker, same attitude.
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:52.960
Oh, we can't possibly listen, Sharon, you've got to do this.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.119
And I said, trust me on this.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:19.039
And so, you know, we we got people that were, quote, ready for prime time and were willing to do this, and they get up there, and the first time she did it, um, we were in Vail, um, and I think I forget the guy's name, but uh, he was the lead guitarist on one of these heavy metal bands, and he was he was attending because his son had gotten into into drugs and he was he was interested in this.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:20.960
So, well, we put someone up there.
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:28.480
Uh, I forget this lady had um you know tried to kill herself two or three times, and finally they were able to correct the issue, and she got out on her own.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:33.359
When she was done, there wasn't a dry eye in the place.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.920
There was so much silence there and the impact of what that had.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:40.720
Well, let me tell you, that turned Sharon into a maniac.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.200
Then she was like, Okay, this is what we're gonna do.
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:53.519
And she she was raising money hand over fist, that she connected, she understood what the need was, and she put the people in their position where they could understand it as well.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:29:00.240
You see, that's what it was all about, and then and then the person loved telling their story because then they were validated.
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:02.559
Look, look where I've come from.
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:08.079
I've come from near death, and it was this group, this mental health holidays that put me there.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:10.799
Wow, and then she was eternally grateful.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:12.160
There you go.
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:14.319
There you go.
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.640
Don't take people's agency away, let them be themselves.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:19.519
Don't do it.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:20.400
No.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.039
So um, do you do capital campaigns?
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.079
We do capital campaigns every once in a while.
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:38.480
When we built the company, there was a sense that there was enough capital campaign uh consultants out there, so we wanted to get into the the longer-term brick and mortar, you know, uh everyday fundraising activities.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:47.279
So, what's the um what and I know there's nothing that's typical, but but what is the typically uh the length of your engagements with the cut with the client?
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.759
Yeah, about 12 to 18 months is our typical.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:50.400
Okay.
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:58.160
It's enough that you actually can build something meaningful, uh, but not so long that you get stale and bored of each other.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:05.920
Now, you've got, I'm just curious how you do this.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:13.440
You you're working people part-time, all right, and do they ever make physical visits to the client or is it all virtual?
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:14.319
How does it work?
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:26.720
Yeah, so we very rarely go on site, and one of the reasons why is that many of our clients are already distributed geographically, so they have their staff spread out all over the country or all over the world.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:27.200
Okay.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:32.559
Um, so I can think of only a handful that have headquarters uh anymore.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:36.079
Um, the rest have pretty virtual cultures.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:47.200
So um what what's the typical um size organization in terms of uh uh how much money they're currently raising andor uh total program revenue?
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.079
What's this typical?
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.960
Our typical clients are in the two and a half million to 15 million space.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.319
Or uh fundraising or overall operations?
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.599
For overall private revenue, not including government grants.
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:02.799
Okay, no, that's a that's a Faustan bargain.
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:13.119
Um and you were uh I wanted this just came to me when you said um uh well in all these all these histories, you know, uh government hasn't solved these problems, blah blah blah.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:18.640
Reminds me, and you're not are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan?
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:20.720
Yes, okay, all right.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.039
I'm also a Washington, so okay.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:33.599
Well, one of his one of his favorite lines was if a man comes to you and says, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you, his response is run like hell.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:43.200
Because you the person needs to have a solution that comes from them.
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:57.200
You see, having something imposed on them from the outside never solves the problem, and uh, but something that they can create on their own, and then that they can use private funding or organic funding to do that.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:59.599
Um, now what do you think about this?
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.200
Uh, do you do you know the guy, a man by the name of Russell James?
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:05.599
I've heard of him, but I don't know much.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:28.000
Well, Russell James is a good friend of mine, but but more importantly, he's a very, very thorough um um uh statistician in the philanthropic community, and he's done all this study on uh where where wealth is, how it's engaged, you know, and and and back the way we've used him here at the A Principles to demonstrate some of the things we do, but that's a different question.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:33.920
But here's one thing he said, and and if you're interested, I can provide you an introduction with Russell, he's a nice guy.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:50.559
Uh overall, for any nonprofit organization, anyone, okay, not the whole sector, they're only accessing about 15% of the funds that are actually available to them.
00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:52.160
Think about that.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.720
I I would buy that any day.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.480
That sounds about right to me.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:05.200
And and the primary reason for that, he says, is that number one, they're they're going for short-term cash, they're bottom feeding.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:08.640
And so those gifts will only get so large.
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:13.039
And because most of the wealth is not in cash, it's in assets.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:27.039
And so unless you're engaging assets uh which take a higher level of relationship, a longer relationship, uh uh, you're not getting anywhere close to what you could raise if you want to.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:39.680
And I suspect, correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that your clients, not that a good number of your clients would be afraid of assets.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.440
They wouldn't know how to deal with them.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:42.640
Am I right?
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.519
You are absolutely wrong about that, actually.
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:46.960
All right, well then fill me in.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.599
Yeah, so they they are not afraid of it.
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:55.039
They want it at the same time when you have a person in front of you.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.880
Cash now is better than a bequest in 20 years.
00:33:59.119 --> 00:33:59.440
Okay.
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.920
So they're trying to assets or other assets, I think.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:10.960
Yeah, they are trying to thread the needle, right, with the money they need today to serve the people they have in front of them.
00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:14.320
Um, with the how do we build the future?
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:14.880
Okay.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.960
And there's some horror stories out there, right?
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:25.360
Hundred million dollar capital campaigns that were all asset-based, and at the end of the campaign, there's no money to do the work next year.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.840
Uh, so there are some big horror stories out there.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.840
I try to teach them that they need to create blended portfolios with donors.
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:32.400
Okay.
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:43.920
Part of it has to be cash, part of it has to be stocks and bonds, part of it has to be other assets that they have, which is why they have to have a horizon of 10, 15, 20, 25 years.
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:44.719
Oh, yes.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:48.960
You're not trying to build a one and done relationship to extract resource.
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:52.320
And usually these relationships start out in cash.
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:56.960
People aren't getting uh their their non-cash assets right away.
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:57.440
Okay.
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:07.599
But it's very, even for a guy my age, it would not be unheard of for me to say, okay, here's your cash gift this year.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:16.480
And oh, by the way, you're a beneficiary of a life insurance policy or a will or uh, you know, whatever.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:25.440
Um, and I think that the more people get accustomed to the both and nature of plan giving, the better they'll become.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:31.440
I don't like when people uh pit cash versus assets because actually the organizations need both.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:33.280
Uh they need cash gifts now.
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:41.360
Uh so I always tell them blended portfolio over time, uh, with the the larger asset gifts coming later in the relationship.
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:46.079
Well, it's as you said, you heard the it's what I call the tyranny of the urgent.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.400
I'll take a cash gift now, thank you.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:50.639
Now, what you really want is both.
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:59.840
Um, you want what what they can give now, uh, because it's uh uh giving is a habit, being connected is a habit.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:18.559
You want to get that relationship, but then the the asset gifts be it a um um uh a material asset, uh tradable securities, real estate, whatever it might be, uh, and then there's the other pieces, the the trusts and the and the insurance and all that, uh, that comes later.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:28.159
And so have you found that most of your clients uh are willing to uh create the infrastructure it takes to process those gifts?
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:33.440
Yeah, so on the on the smaller side, they're very willing for the brokerage account type thing.
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:47.199
And then I find that it's not until they get to be about five and a half to six million in in revenue that they start saying, oh wow, I really need to create much better infrastructure uh for more complex gifts.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:51.440
And we have a list of preferred partners that can help them, help them do that.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.800
Okay, all right.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:37:01.599
Well, I live out in the uh in the Boise Valley, and we've had a lot of growth in the last, well, since I've been here 20 years.
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:02.960
Oh, 20 years.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:12.239
And so there's a lot of land here uh that has been farmland for a long, long time that's now being developed for one reason or the other.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:20.320
And so you essentially have zero basis land sitting out there that's tripled, quadrupled, quintupled in value.
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:23.519
All right, and so um you'll find this interesting.
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:25.199
This was a few years ago.
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:35.599
I was uh I was asked to work with a uh uh uh independent school on their capital campaign, and I came in kind of midstream, James.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.960
So I would have this would have never happened if I'd been in the beginning.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:49.199
But they had some farmers that were get this selling selling, hold on a minute.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:06.400
Okay, oh he's leaving a voicemail, good um that were selling selling zero basis land and giving the proceeds to the school.
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:13.840
I was like, what you're doing, what and the school was accepting this, they didn't know any better.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:21.440
And and the true irony of this is these guys, James, were very conservative Dutch farmers.
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:33.039
Taxes, I don't pay taxes, and so at the end of that tax year, when the tax man came came calling, well, all of us income tax, capital gains, all these things.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:36.960
And I just think no, all they had to do was give it to the school.
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.840
Well, then then what do we do with it?
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:45.360
Well, you can do anything you want to with it, you can sell it and use the procedure and do anything you want with it, you see.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:49.679
Oh well, see, there was this lack of sophistication, lack of knowledge, yeah.
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.719
In dealing with that, and so I don't know what happened.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.199
I said stop right now, don't do any more of that.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.239
Inform your people you don't want them to sell anything because it was it was zero basis, James.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:03.199
You know, essentially, yeah.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:10.159
So, well, we've covered a lot of territory, but I always give you the top opportunity to add something.
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:13.440
So, what would you like to add that we haven't talked about?
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:18.719
I know you're a nice guy, so we don't have to sell that anymore, but what would you like to add?
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:24.000
Yeah, you asked me in the beginning the traits that I think make a great fundraiser.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:25.760
I want to add to it as we close.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:26.400
Sure.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:29.840
And I think I would add courage to the list, yeah.
00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:30.400
Okay.
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:35.840
Um, the world we live in is not the easiest world, you know, out there uh right now.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:42.400
The political divides, the cultural divides, social, there's just a lot that tear people apart.
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:47.280
And fundraising at its core is about bringing people together to solve big challenges.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:53.360
It should be so to the curiosity, to the drive, to all the things that we mentioned, courage.
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:58.159
Uh, I don't want people listening to lose heart because something is hard for a season.
00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:58.559
Okay.
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:10.079
Stick with it, get five percent better every year, learn as you go, get out there and do the work, and things start paying off.
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:18.880
Well, if you can manage to get five percent better every year, I mean you're gonna be at the top of your game in five years.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.239
Yeah, do it.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:23.519
Okay.
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:28.559
I try to get five percent more productivity out of my farm every year.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.039
Okay.
00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:30.239
Why wouldn't I?
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:35.599
By by pruning, by cutting, by fertilizer, by weed control, you know, all these different things.
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:40.880
That's a farm where I sell flowers for fun to like florists and wedding planners, okay?
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:47.360
It's uh it's a you know, on-the-side hustle that maybe will help me put my kids through college one day.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:48.719
Uh, we'll see.
00:40:49.280 --> 00:41:02.719
If I'm trying to get five percent better at that, and you, nonprofit leader that's listening, are solving one of those intractable problems in the world, you better be trying to get at least five percent better every year.
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:06.159
All right, okay, James.
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.119
Well, I've just thoroughly enjoyed this.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:10.639
This has been a lot of fun.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:11.440
It has been.
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:12.639
Thanks for having me on, Larry.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:13.920
Well, it's my pleasure.
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:18.400
Um, if uh send me an email if you want an introduction to Russell.
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:22.719
Uh, he's lit, he's out in Texas, and he'll share all of his information with you.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:24.480
He's really, really open about that.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:35.039
So well, you know, I've had the delightful conversation with James Miss Meissner, and uh and I want to thank him for agreeing to be my guest today.
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:39.199
And I also want to thank you, the audience, for taking some time to tune in.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.760
Uh, you know, we're on um YouTube and we're also on the audio channels.
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.000
So again, thank you.
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:51.840
Next time, somebody thank you for listening today.
00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:57.519
Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.239
Guest comments and opinions are their own.
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:05.119
The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.
