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Welcome to Educational Relevance.
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am Bryan Wright, I am a successful administrator, 30 plus years in the public school settings.
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Educational Relevance, it's a podcast for educators by educators.
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Currently I am an adjunct professor at Concordia University in Mequon Wisconsin.
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And I'm gonna introduce my partner in crime, Mark Macbeth.
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Mark Macbeth, a seasoned professional with 30 plus years of experience in administration, leadership, and consulting
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Well Mark, we know the last few months of the school year means wrapping up teacher evaluations.
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So today is the perfect time to share the SR 3 The SR 3 is a teacher evaluation plan.
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The SR 3 means support, repeat, remediate, and remove.
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But before we start that, Mark gives us a definition of what a laser conversation is.
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Laser conversations is a very pointed conversation with other educators around a particular topic, aimed at helping them grow and be better at what they're doing.
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And Mark, let's talk about that because our first step in the SR 3 is support.
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How does the laser conversations assist us to help support the teachers.
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So it, really helps teachers to think at deeper levels.
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So a, skilled administrator can ask a very open-ended, very deep thinking questions to try to get a teacher to, reflect on their present practice without coming across as evaluative or judgemental.
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It's really meant to one, maybe help me, but also help that teacher grow.
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For an example an open-ended question might be with the assumptions that that a teacher's made decisions about something that you saw in the classroom.
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So the way it works, Bryan, is I, go into a classroom and try to make a five minute or less observation.
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Sometimes it could be anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute to two minutes, just deep enough to feel like I understand the student engagement going on in the classroom.
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What the, teacher's vision, mission might have been for that particular topic and then walk out.
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And really it's about student engagement, our students learning or not learning.
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I do is I come back between class periods, elementary while teachers are passing with their, their kids while they're in doing copies, getting stuff ready for their next class.
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So for like in the middle school, I just stand up against the wall or the locker says kids are passing and the teachers out there supervising and I stand shoulder to shoulder with them and I just ask them, you told the students about this particular topic associated with Lincoln sounded like you were trying to get them to make assumptions about that, but I had to leave.
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What was your, thinking process?
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What were you trying to get kids to go to, in that particular situation?
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So what I'm doing is I'm asking a question to see if the teacher's given deeper thought to just, instead of just open asking a simple question that they had intents to ensure students are thinking at deeper levels themselves.
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And by asking that question the teacher can start to reflect on their practice.
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So let me ask this question Mark.
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does the laser conversation, become a part of the formal evaluation support?
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That's a good question, Bryan.
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So personally, when I think about support, I really look at it with the intention of helping that teacher grow.
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And it is not to hold them accountable.
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It's really to help them grow in the intention.
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So I often keep my coaching and support folder separate that says, Hey, I went in, asked that question.
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Maybe I wanna follow up next week with something else, you know, with that teacher, I worked with them on something like a lesson plan or, or I work with them on a classroom rule or expectations that they have with kids.
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Or even that higher order questioning, I've worked with the teacher on that, and then I want to go back and work with it again.
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The evaluation gets separated and, that's where it goes into a whole nother folder, and that's where I'm gonna hold them more accountable to the expectations that the district has outlined.
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In this particular case, I'm looking at the expectations of how can I help that teacher grow to be even stronger than they are, even if they're great doing self-reflection is powerful.
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So when you do step one, we talk about support.
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That means you're actually providing them some ideas to assist them in their development as an instructor.
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Is that correct?
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I actually enter coaching from the stance of really getting the teacher to think deeper.
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if I started into that little conversation,'cause that that conversation's only.
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You know, 3 minutes long.
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It's, really pointed, right?
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But if, if I entered into that conversation and the teacher doesn't seem to quite get it, I might start to collaborate and say, well, I was kind of thinking this and I was thinking this.
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What was your thinking?
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And then I try to push it back into their thinking even more.
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Or if they really don't have an answer.
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I'll go to that expert level and say, oh, this is what you would ask if you really wanted that deeper level thinking.
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you should have asked what was the unintended effects effects of this of this happening, right?
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And, and that would've had the kids thinking at a deeper level that they're, you know unintended.
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Oh, I didn't know those side effects to that.
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Right?
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so let me, summarize this first part with support.
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Everything we do in this first part when we're discussing support of the teacher, we understand, we see, some things that are problematic in the classroom, but Our first step is always to support that teacher.
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How can we get you on the right track?
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How can we assist you to make you a better educator.
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Is that correct?
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Yeah.
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Coach and support you know, and I, I've even used the word coach and support them to death, meaning I give them more than they want, you know?
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And ultimately, if they ever choose to not make the next step and grow and develop as, as a teacher, then ultimately they choose their own, you know, little statement on their own tombstone, I guess.
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And that's where you come in later where you talk about remove.
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I never want to get to that stage.
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I don't want to have that conversation when I'm coaching and supporting.
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That's a great segue to our next piece, though, because now we're talking about repeat.
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Because sometimes when you make these mentions to teachers, you gotta make sure you, you gotta repeat what you're gonna talk to the teacher about what you want them to fix.
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Sometimes you wanna make sure it's clear the process you want them to utilize in order for them to become successful.
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So it may not be the first time you talk to them, it may be the second time you talk to'em, but you wanna make sure you say, this is the area we want you to improve in.
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This is the places we want you to grow, and this is why we think it's going to help student achievement.
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So Mark, lemme ask you this question because I think the first time you really did segue beautifully into the second part.
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How did we get to that second part when you, when you repeat what you're saying to the teacher when you didn't think they got it the first time?
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Yeah, so you, you've been there a million times, Bryan.
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You walk into a classroom, you see something, maybe you have a conversation with the teacher and you go back the next day and you see the same behavior.
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I.
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And, and so it doesn't matter whether I'm in that coaching or support stance, when I go back in a formal evaluative state, I will see that same behavior again.
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If I spend an hour in the classroom, I'm gonna see the same thing.
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It just, it just surface.
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And at that point, I'm either going back and having multiple visits through the coaching, and then the coaching might step up.
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We talked about laser conversations, very appointed, but I might say.
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Hey, I can come in and, and give you a, a sample of that.
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I can, I can teach a lesson on that particular thing where I can help you.
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Maybe the two of us get up in front and we ask these deeper level
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Mm-hmm.
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if that's what we want to do.
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Or I'll send the instructional coach in to support you, or let's go observe another teacher's classroom.
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That's the The repeat, the repeat.
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Right.
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Part of that formal evaluation starts to document the repeat.
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The idea that I tell them at some point during the formal evaluation, Hey, during my observation, during the formal observation, I solve this.
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I think you need to grow and develop in that.
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And so let's work on some strategies with that.
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You said the magic word.
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We wanna make sure we document things.
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We're talking to teachers about.
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It has to be documented, right?
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And yes, those conversations are good, but when we talk about going to the second step, which is repeat clarity is the point.
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We gotta make sure, you gotta ensure what we want to see is gonna be put down in print.
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Am I right?
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Right.
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And that's why we're talking about helping teachers out, getting the right pieces together.
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Again, repeat can be used as a supportive state as well.
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We're trying to get the teacher so they become excellent instructors, educational leaders in front of students.
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But at the same time, we gotta say, this is what we want to see.
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Is that what we're talking about, Mark?
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At that point,
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Yeah.
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100%.
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You can never hold anybody accountable if they don't know the expectation and they, and you can never hold anybody accountable if you didn't collect the data to show them what that represented.
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Right?
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And
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Absolutely.
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the documentation.
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You, if you don't have it, then how do you ever hold them accountable?
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You can't come back at this time of the year and go, oh, by the way, you were really terrible first semester.
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Terrible at what, you know, when did this conversation take place?
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And so that's where that repeat it's, it's like we should be having that conversations of coaching support first semester of the year.
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Ongoing.
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Ongoing.
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But at some point when we notice something more serious or, where we need to really hold them accountable.
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Then we start to clearly document that and then, and then we're still coaching and support, but we're, laying that evidence and that repeat efforts to help them.
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And Mark, you just mentioned something about timeliness.
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I think that's a great comment.
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'cause timeliness is what we're talking when we discuss remediation.
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The third piece is remediate.
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All right, when we talk remediate, we gotta say it.
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Now look, we need to see some improvement.
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We're saying this, we wanna make sure we, we supported you.
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We want to continue to support you, but we got to see something better in the classroom.
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We gotta meet those student standards that know we want students to learn.
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Remediate helps us out.
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But timing, this is also a fact Mark.
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When we discuss that, give the teacher or the educator.
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Time to implement new ideas and strategies so that when we say these things saying we need to remediate, we gotta give you an opportunity to have a a learning plan.
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Some people say it's a teacher improvement plan, that other districts call it some of the other things, but the bottom line is getting that person a formal opportunity to make change.
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Mark, you've been in this role many a time.
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How do you get teachers to, to help them to remediate what they're doing in the classroom?
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Always to offer evidence of data that supports where their growth and or lack of growth.
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Okay?
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So you're always documenting whatever you say is, here's what I'm gonna remediate with.
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You gotta have a way to measuring that to determine whether they're making growth, and you have to go into it with the mindset that I am gonna help them be successful.
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I'm encouraging them to adopt that same concept that I want to be successful.
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But there's one key thing here that I think's really essential, that some administrators are afraid to say.
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They're afraid to say that this is unacceptable.
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Because it's hurting kids' learning.
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So you have to enhance and change what you're doing right now.
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That's when remediation kicks in is when you find that they are hurting kids' learning, kids are not learning as a result of what you're doing as a teacher and you have to be willing to tell teachers that, then you turn around and go back and say, now I'm gonna help you be successful.
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I'm gonna help kids learn by helping you because I want you to be successful.
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But document, document, document, in remediation.
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Also, you mentioned data.
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I think data plays such a big role, Mark, especially when it comes to remediation.
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You can have a teacher that's liked by the kids.
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I've known many a teachers that's well liked by the students.
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Kids like him, he's their buddy, but they're not learning in the classroom.
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That's why data becomes so important so you can see what's going on.
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I have been in that position, we'll talk about removing in a minute, but I've been in that position where a teacher's been well liked, but they're being well liked is one thing.
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Kids learning in the classroom was not taking place.
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So they had a good time in the classroom.
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They spoke about a lot of our issues, but How are you meeting classroom objectives on a daily basis?
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And then what are you going to do?
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What kind of data are you going to utilize to show that the kids are learning?
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So, Mark, let me give you an idea.
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Let me tell you, let me ask you, actually ask you this question Mark and how, what kind of ideas have you seen?
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So teachers can be used for data so that they can say, I'm meeting these standards.
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Well, the simple one is an assessment, right?
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Are my kids learning or not learning?
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And that doesn't have to be a formative assessment of some sort, it can be what's going on inside the classroom or students being successful in my weekly assessments.
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Are kids demonstrating what they're doing?
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A grade doesn't necessarily determine that, so I don't like to use grades as a, as a source of data.
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But we can also see simple things like in a classroom, I can do flow charts of all kinds of observations with the teacher on whether they're calling on kids, whether they're asking higher order questioning, whether they have student engagement.
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I can document all those things and they'd be the same thing that I documented from day one.
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Would be the same thing I'm documenting as I'm going.
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The teacher can also document those levels of higher order questioning by just saying, here's, you know let me bring up a chart here.
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Like, here's, here's a evidence and reasoning.
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Teachers could have these questions set in front of them and they could show me that they've been asking these questions.
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What evidence supports this claim?
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How do you know that?
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What makes you say that?
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You know, if they have those type of things in front of them and they're asking questions of the students, they're getting kids to think a little bit.
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So at least they're attempting to make progress with that.
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Now, if they have the follow up and they can, but they can say, how many times I've asked that question?
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Does that make sense?
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Oh, now does it make sense?
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But I'll also throw out another piece because you brought up something I I want to talk about and I'll make a quick story.
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You brought up grades.
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lemme give you an example.
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I had two freshman teachers in the same level at a certain school.
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One teacher felt that if the kids did 3 paragraphs well, they're worthy of an A.
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I had another freshman teacher said, I want my kids to learn how to do 3 page term papers with research.
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If they can't do that, then they're gonna get a C.
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So one teacher 80% of her kids got B's or better, and 92%, I think 93% of her kids got Cs or better, out of a hundred kids.
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Now, the a hundred kids from the other teacher, 60% got B's or better.
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75% got A's or better.
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But here's the concern.
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The next year, the kids who are in the 3 page themes did a whole lot better in sophomore, and their grades got much higher than that teacher who were teaching them just 3 paragraphs and saying that was good enough.
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So sometimes when we look at grades, grades are not always equal.
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Yet the teacher who did the 3 paragraphs was liked, her kids loved her, but they were learning the material to advance their learning and what they're going to do.
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Now.
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That being said, that brings us to the fourth piece.
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And Mark, I, I see you wanted say something.
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What you got buddy?
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Well, let, let's, let's reflect back.
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You and I talked to Rollie Platt one time.
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He was a longtime school administrator in Quincy,
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Mm-hmm.
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and he, he was a principal at an alternative school and he talked to us about mastery learning, meaning that.
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Kids could not move on from one topic to the next until they were able to show proficiency of 80% or more on a particular topic.
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It didn't matter how much work they did, they could, they could work, work, work, work.
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No grade, they get the 80% or more, they just got a passing grade.
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Boom.
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They move on to the next topic and next topic, and then those things were repeated a little bit in each one of those different mods that he had.
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So that was ensuring kids were learning, not kids doing.
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Well, and that's the basis of standard basis and grading
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Yeah.
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that what standard based grading is.
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modernized term.
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Yep.
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Rollie was.
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In certain aspects because you were doing this years ago, but now we got schools who actually grade on standards based.
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How much?
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How they know the standards.
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80%.
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But at the same time, somewhere along the way, subjectivity becomes involved,
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Yeah.
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and that's why it's so important that the data you have, it's gotta be more objective data.
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I had a teacher whose kids weren't doing stuff on a nationals level.
00:18:28.750 --> 00:18:36.730
He was saying, but 90% of my kids are learning on the level I have on the grading scale I utilize, and you're like, wait a minute.
00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:43.299
They may be doing it on your scale, just like that teacher who had 92% of the kids passing with a C or better.
00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:49.569
But what are they going to do as far as the national grading level on ninth grade English.
00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:54.940
And tell you truth, her kid did not do nearly as well as the other teacher who was talking about the 3 pages.
00:18:54.990 --> 00:18:58.380
Now we're gonna talk about removal'cause eventually we gotta get some teachers to be gone.
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:06.460
You've done all your documentation, you used data, you used support, you repeated what you wanted them to learn.
00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:08.380
You put them on a remediation plan.
00:19:09.970 --> 00:19:13.690
Mark what happens when we got until somebody is not working?
00:19:15.579 --> 00:19:26.005
You know, I think, we invite people in to be teachers and we put our arm around them and say, welcome to the team and at the very end, we've done everything to exhaust our efforts.
00:19:26.035 --> 00:19:30.805
We've collected data, we've coached and supported them to their own demise, right?
00:19:30.805 --> 00:19:32.575
They've, they've chosen their path.
00:19:33.244 --> 00:19:39.265
We put our arm around them again and say, sorry this is not where you need to be today.
00:19:39.684 --> 00:19:40.075
Right?
00:19:40.394 --> 00:19:44.055
And, it is about our product, okay?
00:19:44.204 --> 00:19:45.555
Which is student learning.
00:19:46.434 --> 00:19:47.545
That's the key.
00:19:47.904 --> 00:19:59.944
And if we hold that avenue to be true, then we don't take personal, the interaction between letting a teacher go because that's where it really, really gets hard.
00:20:00.394 --> 00:20:15.305
We have close relationships with these teachers if we've coached them as much as we, we just talked about here in support and remediate and everything else, and we've done the repeating efforts and over and over we've created a relationship with that teacher.
00:20:16.474 --> 00:20:20.724
And sometimes it's hard to cut ways, but we collect the data.
00:20:21.444 --> 00:20:22.615
We hold them accountable.
00:20:22.664 --> 00:20:26.269
Our product is student learning, so we have to make those hard decisions.
00:20:27.454 --> 00:20:33.335
In addition the proof is always in the pudding, but it's also a situation where learning's not taking place.
00:20:33.664 --> 00:20:41.884
We've done the documentation, but we also, and when I talked to you about the, the teacher analogy we used the next year.
00:20:42.819 --> 00:20:45.099
How are those kids going to learn the next year?
00:20:45.910 --> 00:20:46.750
And that's the problem.
00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:52.359
Have those kids been put set back by the product of poor teaching?
00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:55.029
And this is a concern we have.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.059
'cause now those students have to play catchup as well.
00:20:58.809 --> 00:21:07.750
And the next teacher who's following that teacher has to find new avenues to make sure they learn more than a month instruction to a month's learning.
00:21:08.619 --> 00:21:11.230
And they have to help build up that student back.
00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:16.150
One more thing we need to talk about when discussing student learning, how does the student feel?
00:21:17.170 --> 00:21:18.640
Does the student feel inferior?
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.289
Does the student feel uncomfortable?
00:21:20.859 --> 00:21:22.599
These are things we also need to talk about.
00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:24.309
because the bottom line is our children.
00:21:25.089 --> 00:21:31.869
But we have been in a situation where we had to remove teachers who have affected these kids in such a negative way.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.539
And again, we're not talking about personal.
00:21:34.555 --> 00:21:39.234
We're talking about what's best for our children, and I think we've done that before.
00:21:39.444 --> 00:21:40.855
And Mark, you've been in that position.
00:21:40.855 --> 00:21:41.244
So have I.
00:21:42.535 --> 00:21:43.015
Yeah.
00:21:43.404 --> 00:22:10.775
You know, and it's, it's really hard and, and you know, I've heard plenty of stories and maybe you've even shared a few with me where school administrators have had to make these really tough choices, and then the, the teacher's really well liked, and then you end up in front of the school board and or in front of some sort of committee to say, I'm recommending this teacher to be released, and there's a bunch of parents and kids there supporting that teacher, and we still have to hold accountable.
00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:13.250
'cause we know what the expectation is.
00:22:13.250 --> 00:22:15.170
We know what we're supposed to be doing.
00:22:15.170 --> 00:22:21.799
We know whether kids are being hurt or not, we still have to stand our ground even among that pressure.
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:34.470
I've been in that situation and still got released because I had the proper documentation and data, the support that I've really bent over backwards to help that teacher along the way.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.450
And if I wouldn't have had that, it would've just been an opinion.
00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:44.430
And I have seen it both ways and thank you for saying that, Mark, you, you're absolutely right.
00:22:44.849 --> 00:22:54.444
I've seen the, where the, the school board has said, we'll give this teacher another year because they felt that the data was not appropriate or not as complete as it should be.
00:22:54.924 --> 00:23:02.875
I've also been in a situation where parents were there and the school board actually stopped the meeting, had a private session.
00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:09.795
What do you have in order for this teacher to be released because they were, they, they're gonna face the pressure of the parents as well.
00:23:10.394 --> 00:23:14.295
So we had to have our ducks in a row, as it were.
00:23:14.505 --> 00:23:19.785
We had to have the data saying, this is what the kids aren't doing, this is what they're not learning.
00:23:20.325 --> 00:23:28.829
And then the board had the courage to go back out there and saying, we're not going to hire this teacher because of this.
00:23:29.130 --> 00:23:30.299
So you're absolutely right.
00:23:30.329 --> 00:23:36.029
So when you talk about the SR 3, the SR 3 has been proven to be an effective program.
00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:38.730
We've used it, we've seen it work.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:54.355
We're giving educators an opportunity to take a program that will provide documentation, utilize data, but at the same time, help support the teachers in question so we can give them, as you said support them to death.
00:23:55.410 --> 00:24:00.740
And, and it's gotta be all good intentions, the best of intentions of trying to help that teacher be successful.
00:24:01.339 --> 00:24:06.829
And then if you do, then you've really coached them through their own death and they've chosen that avenue.
00:24:07.904 --> 00:24:13.984
they've chosen it through their, behavior, their desires, their wants, maybe even their own knowledge or skillset.
00:24:14.015 --> 00:24:15.904
They just can't quite get to that level.
00:24:16.194 --> 00:24:19.529
Oh, absolutely education is not for everyone.
00:24:20.815 --> 00:24:22.224
It's hard work too.
00:24:22.275 --> 00:24:25.335
I people think that they get their summers off and everything else.
00:24:25.335 --> 00:24:27.224
I mean, it's hard work.
00:24:27.704 --> 00:24:31.335
It is hard thinking all day, being on the top of your game.
00:24:31.724 --> 00:24:34.095
Teachers are worn out by the end of the day.
00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:38.549
And I wanna make sure we close this session by saying we are in support of teachers.
00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:46.380
I had a teacher tell me they do 900 shows a year, 180 days, five classes.
00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:48.660
They do 900 presentations a year.
00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.690
And that is true in certain ways, but at the same time, I.
00:24:52.244 --> 00:24:59.555
We wanna support you in those presentations, but we also gotta make sure the audience you're presenting to is learning the material they have to learn.
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:01.759
Oh, that's deep buddy.
00:25:02.059 --> 00:25:02.269
That's a.
00:25:03.095 --> 00:25:08.525
Well, with that being said, Thank you for joining us today on Educational Relevance, Bye-bye.
00:25:09.515 --> 00:25:10.384
Thanks for listening.
00:25:10.845 --> 00:25:17.805
Be sure to like and follow Educational Relevance on Facebook, Instagram,YouTube and your favorite podcast platform.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.770
Welcome to Educational Relevance.
00:00:02.459 --> 00:00:08.880
am Bryan Wright, I am a successful administrator, 30 plus years in the public school settings.
00:00:09.779 --> 00:00:14.724
Educational Relevance, it's a podcast for educators by educators.
00:00:15.054 --> 00:00:21.625
Currently I am an adjunct professor at Concordia University in Mequon Wisconsin.
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And I'm gonna introduce my partner in crime, Mark Macbeth.
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Mark Macbeth, a seasoned professional with 30 plus years of experience in administration, leadership, and consulting
00:00:33.734 --> 00:00:39.284
Well Mark, we know the last few months of the school year means wrapping up teacher evaluations.
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So today is the perfect time to share the SR 3 The SR 3 is a teacher evaluation plan.
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The SR 3 means support, repeat, remediate, and remove.
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But before we start that, Mark gives us a definition of what a laser conversation is.
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Laser conversations is a very pointed conversation with other educators around a particular topic, aimed at helping them grow and be better at what they're doing.
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And Mark, let's talk about that because our first step in the SR 3 is support.
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How does the laser conversations assist us to help support the teachers.
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So it, really helps teachers to think at deeper levels.
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So a, skilled administrator can ask a very open-ended, very deep thinking questions to try to get a teacher to, reflect on their present practice without coming across as evaluative or judgemental.
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It's really meant to one, maybe help me, but also help that teacher grow.
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For an example an open-ended question might be with the assumptions that that a teacher's made decisions about something that you saw in the classroom.
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So the way it works, Bryan, is I, go into a classroom and try to make a five minute or less observation.
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Sometimes it could be anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute to two minutes, just deep enough to feel like I understand the student engagement going on in the classroom.
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What the, teacher's vision, mission might have been for that particular topic and then walk out.
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And really it's about student engagement, our students learning or not learning.
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I do is I come back between class periods, elementary while teachers are passing with their, their kids while they're in doing copies, getting stuff ready for their next class.
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So for like in the middle school, I just stand up against the wall or the locker says kids are passing and the teachers out there supervising and I stand shoulder to shoulder with them and I just ask them, you told the students about this particular topic associated with Lincoln sounded like you were trying to get them to make assumptions about that, but I had to leave.
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What was your, thinking process?
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What were you trying to get kids to go to, in that particular situation?
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So what I'm doing is I'm asking a question to see if the teacher's given deeper thought to just, instead of just open asking a simple question that they had intents to ensure students are thinking at deeper levels themselves.
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And by asking that question the teacher can start to reflect on their practice.
00:03:31.914 --> 00:03:33.384
So let me ask this question Mark.
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does the laser conversation, become a part of the formal evaluation support?
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That's a good question, Bryan.
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So personally, when I think about support, I really look at it with the intention of helping that teacher grow.
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And it is not to hold them accountable.
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It's really to help them grow in the intention.
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So I often keep my coaching and support folder separate that says, Hey, I went in, asked that question.
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Maybe I wanna follow up next week with something else, you know, with that teacher, I worked with them on something like a lesson plan or, or I work with them on a classroom rule or expectations that they have with kids.
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Or even that higher order questioning, I've worked with the teacher on that, and then I want to go back and work with it again.
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The evaluation gets separated and, that's where it goes into a whole nother folder, and that's where I'm gonna hold them more accountable to the expectations that the district has outlined.
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In this particular case, I'm looking at the expectations of how can I help that teacher grow to be even stronger than they are, even if they're great doing self-reflection is powerful.
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So when you do step one, we talk about support.
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That means you're actually providing them some ideas to assist them in their development as an instructor.
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Is that correct?
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I actually enter coaching from the stance of really getting the teacher to think deeper.
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if I started into that little conversation,'cause that that conversation's only.
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You know, 3 minutes long.
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It's, really pointed, right?
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But if, if I entered into that conversation and the teacher doesn't seem to quite get it, I might start to collaborate and say, well, I was kind of thinking this and I was thinking this.
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What was your thinking?
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And then I try to push it back into their thinking even more.
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Or if they really don't have an answer.
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I'll go to that expert level and say, oh, this is what you would ask if you really wanted that deeper level thinking.
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you should have asked what was the unintended effects effects of this of this happening, right?
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And, and that would've had the kids thinking at a deeper level that they're, you know unintended.
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Oh, I didn't know those side effects to that.
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Right?
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so let me, summarize this first part with support.
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Everything we do in this first part when we're discussing support of the teacher, we understand, we see, some things that are problematic in the classroom, but Our first step is always to support that teacher.
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How can we get you on the right track?
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How can we assist you to make you a better educator.
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Is that correct?
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Yeah.
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Coach and support you know, and I, I've even used the word coach and support them to death, meaning I give them more than they want, you know?
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And ultimately, if they ever choose to not make the next step and grow and develop as, as a teacher, then ultimately they choose their own, you know, little statement on their own tombstone, I guess.
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And that's where you come in later where you talk about remove.
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I never want to get to that stage.
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I don't want to have that conversation when I'm coaching and supporting.
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That's a great segue to our next piece, though, because now we're talking about repeat.
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Because sometimes when you make these mentions to teachers, you gotta make sure you, you gotta repeat what you're gonna talk to the teacher about what you want them to fix.
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Sometimes you wanna make sure it's clear the process you want them to utilize in order for them to become successful.
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So it may not be the first time you talk to them, it may be the second time you talk to'em, but you wanna make sure you say, this is the area we want you to improve in.
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This is the places we want you to grow, and this is why we think it's going to help student achievement.
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So Mark, lemme ask you this question because I think the first time you really did segue beautifully into the second part.
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How did we get to that second part when you, when you repeat what you're saying to the teacher when you didn't think they got it the first time?
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Yeah, so you, you've been there a million times, Bryan.
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You walk into a classroom, you see something, maybe you have a conversation with the teacher and you go back the next day and you see the same behavior.
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I.
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And, and so it doesn't matter whether I'm in that coaching or support stance, when I go back in a formal evaluative state, I will see that same behavior again.
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If I spend an hour in the classroom, I'm gonna see the same thing.
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It just, it just surface.
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And at that point, I'm either going back and having multiple visits through the coaching, and then the coaching might step up.
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We talked about laser conversations, very appointed, but I might say.
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Hey, I can come in and, and give you a, a sample of that.
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I can, I can teach a lesson on that particular thing where I can help you.
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Maybe the two of us get up in front and we ask these deeper level
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Mm-hmm.
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if that's what we want to do.
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Or I'll send the instructional coach in to support you, or let's go observe another teacher's classroom.
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That's the The repeat, the repeat.
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Right.
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Part of that formal evaluation starts to document the repeat.
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The idea that I tell them at some point during the formal evaluation, Hey, during my observation, during the formal observation, I solve this.
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I think you need to grow and develop in that.
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And so let's work on some strategies with that.
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You said the magic word.
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We wanna make sure we document things.
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We're talking to teachers about.
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It has to be documented, right?
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And yes, those conversations are good, but when we talk about going to the second step, which is repeat clarity is the point.
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We gotta make sure, you gotta ensure what we want to see is gonna be put down in print.
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Am I right?
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Right.
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And that's why we're talking about helping teachers out, getting the right pieces together.
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Again, repeat can be used as a supportive state as well.
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We're trying to get the teacher so they become excellent instructors, educational leaders in front of students.
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But at the same time, we gotta say, this is what we want to see.
00:09:40.105 --> 00:09:41.125
Is that what we're talking about, Mark?
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At that point,
00:09:42.534 --> 00:09:42.745
Yeah.
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100%.
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You can never hold anybody accountable if they don't know the expectation and they, and you can never hold anybody accountable if you didn't collect the data to show them what that represented.
00:09:53.784 --> 00:09:54.174
Right?
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And
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Absolutely.
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the documentation.
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You, if you don't have it, then how do you ever hold them accountable?
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You can't come back at this time of the year and go, oh, by the way, you were really terrible first semester.
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Terrible at what, you know, when did this conversation take place?
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And so that's where that repeat it's, it's like we should be having that conversations of coaching support first semester of the year.
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Ongoing.
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Ongoing.
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But at some point when we notice something more serious or, where we need to really hold them accountable.
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Then we start to clearly document that and then, and then we're still coaching and support, but we're, laying that evidence and that repeat efforts to help them.
00:10:37.014 --> 00:10:39.475
And Mark, you just mentioned something about timeliness.
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I think that's a great comment.
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'cause timeliness is what we're talking when we discuss remediation.
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The third piece is remediate.
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All right, when we talk remediate, we gotta say it.
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Now look, we need to see some improvement.
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We're saying this, we wanna make sure we, we supported you.
00:10:54.394 --> 00:10:58.504
We want to continue to support you, but we got to see something better in the classroom.
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We gotta meet those student standards that know we want students to learn.
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Remediate helps us out.
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But timing, this is also a fact Mark.
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When we discuss that, give the teacher or the educator.
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Time to implement new ideas and strategies so that when we say these things saying we need to remediate, we gotta give you an opportunity to have a a learning plan.
00:11:18.914 --> 00:11:28.455
Some people say it's a teacher improvement plan, that other districts call it some of the other things, but the bottom line is getting that person a formal opportunity to make change.
00:11:28.695 --> 00:11:30.375
Mark, you've been in this role many a time.
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How do you get teachers to, to help them to remediate what they're doing in the classroom?
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Always to offer evidence of data that supports where their growth and or lack of growth.
00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:42.490
Okay?
00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:48.090
So you're always documenting whatever you say is, here's what I'm gonna remediate with.
00:11:48.149 --> 00:11:59.169
You gotta have a way to measuring that to determine whether they're making growth, and you have to go into it with the mindset that I am gonna help them be successful.
00:11:59.529 --> 00:12:04.809
I'm encouraging them to adopt that same concept that I want to be successful.
00:12:05.830 --> 00:12:11.889
But there's one key thing here that I think's really essential, that some administrators are afraid to say.
00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.480
They're afraid to say that this is unacceptable.
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.190
Because it's hurting kids' learning.
00:12:20.029 --> 00:12:23.559
So you have to enhance and change what you're doing right now.
00:12:24.190 --> 00:12:41.669
That's when remediation kicks in is when you find that they are hurting kids' learning, kids are not learning as a result of what you're doing as a teacher and you have to be willing to tell teachers that, then you turn around and go back and say, now I'm gonna help you be successful.
00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:45.960
I'm gonna help kids learn by helping you because I want you to be successful.
00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.230
But document, document, document, in remediation.
00:12:49.914 --> 00:12:51.894
Also, you mentioned data.
00:12:52.644 --> 00:12:56.654
I think data plays such a big role, Mark, especially when it comes to remediation.
00:12:57.434 --> 00:13:00.134
You can have a teacher that's liked by the kids.
00:13:01.129 --> 00:13:03.830
I've known many a teachers that's well liked by the students.
00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:09.110
Kids like him, he's their buddy, but they're not learning in the classroom.
00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:13.309
That's why data becomes so important so you can see what's going on.
00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:21.860
I have been in that position, we'll talk about removing in a minute, but I've been in that position where a teacher's been well liked, but they're being well liked is one thing.
00:13:21.889 --> 00:13:24.529
Kids learning in the classroom was not taking place.
00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:26.840
So they had a good time in the classroom.
00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:33.129
They spoke about a lot of our issues, but How are you meeting classroom objectives on a daily basis?
00:13:33.730 --> 00:13:35.169
And then what are you going to do?
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:38.559
What kind of data are you going to utilize to show that the kids are learning?
00:13:39.264 --> 00:13:40.884
So, Mark, let me give you an idea.
00:13:40.945 --> 00:13:46.884
Let me tell you, let me ask you, actually ask you this question Mark and how, what kind of ideas have you seen?
00:13:46.975 --> 00:13:52.134
So teachers can be used for data so that they can say, I'm meeting these standards.
00:13:53.465 --> 00:13:56.664
Well, the simple one is an assessment, right?
00:13:56.934 --> 00:13:58.825
Are my kids learning or not learning?
00:13:59.245 --> 00:14:09.725
And that doesn't have to be a formative assessment of some sort, it can be what's going on inside the classroom or students being successful in my weekly assessments.
00:14:10.215 --> 00:14:12.345
Are kids demonstrating what they're doing?
00:14:12.710 --> 00:14:18.019
A grade doesn't necessarily determine that, so I don't like to use grades as a, as a source of data.
00:14:18.889 --> 00:14:33.544
But we can also see simple things like in a classroom, I can do flow charts of all kinds of observations with the teacher on whether they're calling on kids, whether they're asking higher order questioning, whether they have student engagement.
00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:38.960
I can document all those things and they'd be the same thing that I documented from day one.
00:14:39.289 --> 00:14:41.450
Would be the same thing I'm documenting as I'm going.
00:14:42.110 --> 00:14:49.769
The teacher can also document those levels of higher order questioning by just saying, here's, you know let me bring up a chart here.
00:14:49.769 --> 00:14:52.559
Like, here's, here's a evidence and reasoning.
00:14:53.129 --> 00:14:58.139
Teachers could have these questions set in front of them and they could show me that they've been asking these questions.
00:14:58.529 --> 00:15:00.509
What evidence supports this claim?
00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:01.919
How do you know that?
00:15:02.409 --> 00:15:04.659
What makes you say that?
00:15:04.750 --> 00:15:12.519
You know, if they have those type of things in front of them and they're asking questions of the students, they're getting kids to think a little bit.
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.610
So at least they're attempting to make progress with that.
00:15:16.269 --> 00:15:22.299
Now, if they have the follow up and they can, but they can say, how many times I've asked that question?
00:15:22.509 --> 00:15:23.379
Does that make sense?
00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:25.090
Oh, now does it make sense?
00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:30.340
But I'll also throw out another piece because you brought up something I I want to talk about and I'll make a quick story.
00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:31.779
You brought up grades.
00:15:33.784 --> 00:15:34.565
lemme give you an example.
00:15:34.565 --> 00:15:37.595
I had two freshman teachers in the same level at a certain school.
00:15:39.245 --> 00:15:44.509
One teacher felt that if the kids did 3 paragraphs well, they're worthy of an A.
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:54.875
I had another freshman teacher said, I want my kids to learn how to do 3 page term papers with research.
00:15:55.850 --> 00:15:58.700
If they can't do that, then they're gonna get a C.
00:15:59.450 --> 00:16:09.820
So one teacher 80% of her kids got B's or better, and 92%, I think 93% of her kids got Cs or better, out of a hundred kids.
00:16:10.179 --> 00:16:16.720
Now, the a hundred kids from the other teacher, 60% got B's or better.
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:18.909
75% got A's or better.
00:16:19.450 --> 00:16:20.679
But here's the concern.
00:16:20.950 --> 00:16:35.149
The next year, the kids who are in the 3 page themes did a whole lot better in sophomore, and their grades got much higher than that teacher who were teaching them just 3 paragraphs and saying that was good enough.
00:16:35.539 --> 00:16:39.019
So sometimes when we look at grades, grades are not always equal.
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:50.620
Yet the teacher who did the 3 paragraphs was liked, her kids loved her, but they were learning the material to advance their learning and what they're going to do.
00:16:51.129 --> 00:16:51.370
Now.
00:16:51.370 --> 00:16:53.620
That being said, that brings us to the fourth piece.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:55.254
And Mark, I, I see you wanted say something.
00:16:55.254 --> 00:16:55.815
What you got buddy?
00:16:56.669 --> 00:16:58.559
Well, let, let's, let's reflect back.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.169
You and I talked to Rollie Platt one time.
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.500
He was a longtime school administrator in Quincy,
00:17:04.694 --> 00:17:05.115
Mm-hmm.
00:17:05.579 --> 00:17:12.220
and he, he was a principal at an alternative school and he talked to us about mastery learning, meaning that.
00:17:13.154 --> 00:17:25.275
Kids could not move on from one topic to the next until they were able to show proficiency of 80% or more on a particular topic.
00:17:25.484 --> 00:17:30.255
It didn't matter how much work they did, they could, they could work, work, work, work.
00:17:30.345 --> 00:17:34.755
No grade, they get the 80% or more, they just got a passing grade.
00:17:34.815 --> 00:17:35.204
Boom.
00:17:35.204 --> 00:17:43.539
They move on to the next topic and next topic, and then those things were repeated a little bit in each one of those different mods that he had.
00:17:44.230 --> 00:17:49.750
So that was ensuring kids were learning, not kids doing.
00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:53.450
Well, and that's the basis of standard basis and grading
00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:55.180
Yeah.
00:17:55.369 --> 00:17:56.660
that what standard based grading is.
00:17:56.769 --> 00:17:57.789
modernized term.
00:17:57.819 --> 00:17:58.029
Yep.
00:17:58.029 --> 00:17:59.180
Rollie was.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.730
In certain aspects because you were doing this years ago, but now we got schools who actually grade on standards based.
00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:08.359
How much?
00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:09.529
How they know the standards.
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:10.640
80%.
00:18:10.970 --> 00:18:16.230
But at the same time, somewhere along the way, subjectivity becomes involved,
00:18:17.210 --> 00:18:17.500
Yeah.
00:18:17.789 --> 00:18:22.769
and that's why it's so important that the data you have, it's gotta be more objective data.
00:18:23.454 --> 00:18:28.450
I had a teacher whose kids weren't doing stuff on a nationals level.
00:18:28.750 --> 00:18:36.730
He was saying, but 90% of my kids are learning on the level I have on the grading scale I utilize, and you're like, wait a minute.
00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:43.299
They may be doing it on your scale, just like that teacher who had 92% of the kids passing with a C or better.
00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:49.569
But what are they going to do as far as the national grading level on ninth grade English.
00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:54.940
And tell you truth, her kid did not do nearly as well as the other teacher who was talking about the 3 pages.
00:18:54.990 --> 00:18:58.380
Now we're gonna talk about removal'cause eventually we gotta get some teachers to be gone.
00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:06.460
You've done all your documentation, you used data, you used support, you repeated what you wanted them to learn.
00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:08.380
You put them on a remediation plan.
00:19:09.970 --> 00:19:13.690
Mark what happens when we got until somebody is not working?
00:19:15.579 --> 00:19:26.005
You know, I think, we invite people in to be teachers and we put our arm around them and say, welcome to the team and at the very end, we've done everything to exhaust our efforts.
00:19:26.035 --> 00:19:30.805
We've collected data, we've coached and supported them to their own demise, right?
00:19:30.805 --> 00:19:32.575
They've, they've chosen their path.
00:19:33.244 --> 00:19:39.265
We put our arm around them again and say, sorry this is not where you need to be today.
00:19:39.684 --> 00:19:40.075
Right?
00:19:40.394 --> 00:19:44.055
And, it is about our product, okay?
00:19:44.204 --> 00:19:45.555
Which is student learning.
00:19:46.434 --> 00:19:47.545
That's the key.
00:19:47.904 --> 00:19:59.944
And if we hold that avenue to be true, then we don't take personal, the interaction between letting a teacher go because that's where it really, really gets hard.
00:20:00.394 --> 00:20:15.305
We have close relationships with these teachers if we've coached them as much as we, we just talked about here in support and remediate and everything else, and we've done the repeating efforts and over and over we've created a relationship with that teacher.
00:20:16.474 --> 00:20:20.724
And sometimes it's hard to cut ways, but we collect the data.
00:20:21.444 --> 00:20:22.615
We hold them accountable.
00:20:22.664 --> 00:20:26.269
Our product is student learning, so we have to make those hard decisions.
00:20:27.454 --> 00:20:33.335
In addition the proof is always in the pudding, but it's also a situation where learning's not taking place.
00:20:33.664 --> 00:20:41.884
We've done the documentation, but we also, and when I talked to you about the, the teacher analogy we used the next year.
00:20:42.819 --> 00:20:45.099
How are those kids going to learn the next year?
00:20:45.910 --> 00:20:46.750
And that's the problem.
00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:52.359
Have those kids been put set back by the product of poor teaching?
00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:55.029
And this is a concern we have.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.059
'cause now those students have to play catchup as well.
00:20:58.809 --> 00:21:07.750
And the next teacher who's following that teacher has to find new avenues to make sure they learn more than a month instruction to a month's learning.
00:21:08.619 --> 00:21:11.230
And they have to help build up that student back.
00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:16.150
One more thing we need to talk about when discussing student learning, how does the student feel?
00:21:17.170 --> 00:21:18.640
Does the student feel inferior?
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.289
Does the student feel uncomfortable?
00:21:20.859 --> 00:21:22.599
These are things we also need to talk about.
00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:24.309
because the bottom line is our children.
00:21:25.089 --> 00:21:31.869
But we have been in a situation where we had to remove teachers who have affected these kids in such a negative way.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.539
And again, we're not talking about personal.
00:21:34.555 --> 00:21:39.234
We're talking about what's best for our children, and I think we've done that before.
00:21:39.444 --> 00:21:40.855
And Mark, you've been in that position.
00:21:40.855 --> 00:21:41.244
So have I.
00:21:42.535 --> 00:21:43.015
Yeah.
00:21:43.404 --> 00:22:10.775
You know, and it's, it's really hard and, and you know, I've heard plenty of stories and maybe you've even shared a few with me where school administrators have had to make these really tough choices, and then the, the teacher's really well liked, and then you end up in front of the school board and or in front of some sort of committee to say, I'm recommending this teacher to be released, and there's a bunch of parents and kids there supporting that teacher, and we still have to hold accountable.
00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:13.250
'cause we know what the expectation is.
00:22:13.250 --> 00:22:15.170
We know what we're supposed to be doing.
00:22:15.170 --> 00:22:21.799
We know whether kids are being hurt or not, we still have to stand our ground even among that pressure.
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:34.470
I've been in that situation and still got released because I had the proper documentation and data, the support that I've really bent over backwards to help that teacher along the way.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.450
And if I wouldn't have had that, it would've just been an opinion.
00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:44.430
And I have seen it both ways and thank you for saying that, Mark, you, you're absolutely right.
00:22:44.849 --> 00:22:54.444
I've seen the, where the, the school board has said, we'll give this teacher another year because they felt that the data was not appropriate or not as complete as it should be.
00:22:54.924 --> 00:23:02.875
I've also been in a situation where parents were there and the school board actually stopped the meeting, had a private session.
00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:09.795
What do you have in order for this teacher to be released because they were, they, they're gonna face the pressure of the parents as well.
00:23:10.394 --> 00:23:14.295
So we had to have our ducks in a row, as it were.
00:23:14.505 --> 00:23:19.785
We had to have the data saying, this is what the kids aren't doing, this is what they're not learning.
00:23:20.325 --> 00:23:28.829
And then the board had the courage to go back out there and saying, we're not going to hire this teacher because of this.
00:23:29.130 --> 00:23:30.299
So you're absolutely right.
00:23:30.329 --> 00:23:36.029
So when you talk about the SR 3, the SR 3 has been proven to be an effective program.
00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:38.730
We've used it, we've seen it work.
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:54.355
We're giving educators an opportunity to take a program that will provide documentation, utilize data, but at the same time, help support the teachers in question so we can give them, as you said support them to death.
00:23:55.410 --> 00:24:00.740
And, and it's gotta be all good intentions, the best of intentions of trying to help that teacher be successful.
00:24:01.339 --> 00:24:06.829
And then if you do, then you've really coached them through their own death and they've chosen that avenue.
00:24:07.904 --> 00:24:13.984
they've chosen it through their, behavior, their desires, their wants, maybe even their own knowledge or skillset.
00:24:14.015 --> 00:24:15.904
They just can't quite get to that level.
00:24:16.194 --> 00:24:19.529
Oh, absolutely education is not for everyone.
00:24:20.815 --> 00:24:22.224
It's hard work too.
00:24:22.275 --> 00:24:25.335
I people think that they get their summers off and everything else.
00:24:25.335 --> 00:24:27.224
I mean, it's hard work.
00:24:27.704 --> 00:24:31.335
It is hard thinking all day, being on the top of your game.
00:24:31.724 --> 00:24:34.095
Teachers are worn out by the end of the day.
00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:38.549
And I wanna make sure we close this session by saying we are in support of teachers.
00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:46.380
I had a teacher tell me they do 900 shows a year, 180 days, five classes.
00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:48.660
They do 900 presentations a year.
00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.690
And that is true in certain ways, but at the same time, I.
00:24:52.244 --> 00:24:59.555
We wanna support you in those presentations, but we also gotta make sure the audience you're presenting to is learning the material they have to learn.
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:01.759
Oh, that's deep buddy.
00:25:02.059 --> 00:25:02.269
That's a.
00:25:03.095 --> 00:25:08.525
Well, with that being said, Thank you for joining us today on Educational Relevance, Bye-bye.
00:25:09.515 --> 00:25:10.384
Thanks for listening.
00:25:10.845 --> 00:25:17.805
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