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00:00:11.457Welcome to the latest episode at EdInfluence.
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00:00:15.714I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson, and this episode is made up of two parts.
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00:00:21.655In the first part, I'm delighted to be joined by Leora Cruddas, CEO of the Confederation of School Trusts.
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00:00:30.079In the second part, I then share with you some discussions with leaders at CST's annual conference in November from the conference floor.
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00:00:32.201Annual conference in November from the conference floor.
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00:00:34.265Thank you, Leora, for joining me today.
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00:00:42.094I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are.
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00:00:48.051So it's lovely to be here with you, Nick, and thank you for the invitation to join this podcast.
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00:01:06.765So I think the story that I'm going to share with you is the story of arriving in England as a young teacher in 1997, the year that Tony Blair formed the labour government.
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00:01:35.524So one of the things that, I guess, confused me as a young teacher as I came to England is that I could not reconcile that in South Africa, which is the country of my birth, adults and children fought and died for the right to an education, yet some children in England who have education as their right are alienated from it and unengaged by it.
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00:01:38.252So let me give you an example.
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00:01:48.790Hector Pieterson was shot and killed at the age of 12 during the Soweto uprising in South Africa in 1976, when the police opened fire on black students.
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00:02:02.100And in a different part of the world, Malala Yusafzai was shot by a Taliban government while on a bus in the Swat district of Pakistan in 2012 because she wrote and she spoke about the right of girls to an education.
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00:02:19.164And in Afghanistan right now, girls are systematically denied access to education, and Malala has spoken very powerfully about this, and yet in England, schooling does not speak to some of our communities.
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00:02:31.174So the thing that bothered me, as a young teacher coming to teach in in England, which still bothers me now, is how do we make sense of this as educators?
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00:02:35.066How do we make sense of this?
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00:02:42.762How can we engage or re-engage the communities we serve in a conversation about the importance and the power of education?
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00:02:46.057So that's bothering me, Nick.
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00:02:49.445Powerful story and message.
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00:03:00.281Leora, how has that shaped your attitude to the role you currently play at leading CST and what's required in the school system now then?
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00:03:19.643So in the early part of my career as a young teacher, I became really, really interested in the power of voice, so who speaks, who gets listened to, and particularly in listening to young people.
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00:03:25.201So I wrote quite extensively about it actually as a young teacher.
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00:03:32.762This sort of sense of can we understand why education is not speaking to all of our communities?
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00:03:48.836And I'm not one of those people who thinks that children have a very pure voice or a voice that isn't influenced by their sedimented histories, by their parents, by the communities in which they live.
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00:04:00.524So sometimes that voice isn't as pure as we'd like it to be, sometimes that voice will recount stories that as educators we might find quite difficult.
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00:04:22.345But nevertheless there is a power in voice because it is through our dialogic conversation with young people that I think we bring a perspective, a different perspective, perhaps to the experience they've lived or to what they've heard from their parents.
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00:04:29.254So I think that's what I did as a young teacher.
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00:04:42.384I became really, really interested in the notion of pupil voice and I think I've held that right the way through my career and I believe now and CST has done quite a lot of work on this about the way schools should be anchored in their communities.
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00:04:45.920We should listen to the communities we serve.
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00:04:50.439So I think this is a contested space.
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00:05:13.461I think we should be debating why education doesn't speak to some of our communities and, as I said a few weeks ago at the CST conference, I don't think we should do this just in the echo chamber of edu-social media or conference halls or sector roundtables, but in real and respectful conversations with the communities we serve.
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00:05:35.028And I visit lots of trusts, Nick, as you probably know, up and down the country and I always feel privileged to do that and I see so many CST members engaged in this work, the real work with parents and local communities that connects their schools so deeply in communities.
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00:05:36.692I think this is deep and purposeful work.
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00:05:53.324So if I look back at my career, I think I've always had this sort of sense that we need to speak to a wider range of voices and not just the echo chamber of professionals speaking to each other.
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00:05:56.015Extending that a bit.
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00:06:07.834I think everybody you know communication is really challenging for all sorts of organisations and communities at the moment, with just the sheer volume and speed of the different ways you can communicate.
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00:06:25.375Since the pandemic, your audience has massively increased as a membership organisation, I was just wondering what you've learned about effectively connecting with such a wide range and diverse audience.
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00:06:38.742Yeah, What are the things that you do to try and create that connection and have have your voice heard when you're communicating with so many people, or so many busy people with so many different priorities and calls on their time?
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00:06:41.755So there are a few stories there, Nick.
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00:06:52.240The first thing I would say is we actually started to see the the growth in cst membership during the pandemic, that that was in fact our biggest growth curve.
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00:07:24.199And if I reflect back on that time, as soon as the pandemic happened, I think I realised I needed to pivot CST to be entirely member-facing, because this novel we were all living through this novel experience of a global pandemic and none of us knew how to lead through this period and we were being asked to do things that we had literally never done before or that we had very, very limited knowledge and understanding of.
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00:07:36.880So in pivoting CST to be member-facing, I instituted Wednesday morning meetings, so an hour on a Wednesday morning, between 9 and 10, that were agendered .
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00:07:42.516So quite unusual in the education space to have meetings that were not agendered.
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00:08:03.339These were meetings conducted on Zoom and they were an open invitation to CST members and we started off quite small because we were quite a small organisation and as people talked to other people and they realised the sort of value and the benefit in these Wednesday morning meetings, the meetings started to grow.
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00:08:24.839They pretty much remain not agendered because the single purpose of those meetings was for me to understand in real time from CST members what was worrying them, what was the top of their minds, what were the things that they needed me to find out from the DfE they need me to do, and then I would go away and do them.
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00:08:28.713So there were hugely discursive or dialogic meetings.
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00:08:40.297It wasn't me speaking at members, it was a conversation, and I started to notice that people were having their own conversations in the kind of Zoom chat.
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00:08:56.056And I think what we were doing but I didn't appreciate it until afterwards is we were building a community, a community of leaders who were doing something quite terrifying and who felt quite lonely and quite isolated and were actually on their own.
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00:09:09.255And these Wednesday morning meetings provided a community space where people could, in a confidential space, share with each other the things that were worrying them most, tell me what was worrying them most, but also talk to each other.
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00:09:11.860So that was very powerful.
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00:09:19.646I never thought that that forum would really outlive the pandemic and to my surprise, Nick, it really has.
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00:09:31.678So we don't hold those meetings every week now, we hold them every fortnight, but they are still a hugely valuable feature of the way that CST engages with its members.
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00:09:43.913The second thing I did it's also a pandemic response was to put out a briefing which was with members before nine o'clock every single morning.
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00:09:58.620So in the pandemic, every single morning a briefing went out and that was whatever members needed to know and whatever I'd managed to find out from the DfE or colleagues in health or whoever I needed to talk to.
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00:10:02.332That would then go in the briefing the next morning.
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00:10:10.314Again, because it was a pandemic response, I didn't necessarily think that people would want that to continue.
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00:10:27.871But we are consistently told by our members in survey after survey that that morning briefing, that written briefing in the morning which comes very early before the start of the kind of working day, is the number one CST benefit.
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00:10:34.244It is the reason why, we don't see much turnover, I think, in CST membership.
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00:10:55.846So those two forms of communication and engagement one kind of in real time people talking to each other and the other using that briefing to give people the information they need that feels called the way that CST now does its routine business.
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00:10:58.173It's really interesting.
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00:11:05.779I mean one thing listening to you, I think something else particularly to the second limb of that is is I don't think you've ever missed one.
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00:11:16.365It's constant, it's been there, it's always been something that people know will be there, and I think the power of that stability is quite powerful, isn't it?
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00:11:18.451I think so.
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00:11:28.340So we, following the pandemic, we we moved to three briefings a week, so it's not to kind of inundate people with with briefings.
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00:11:33.018But yes, you're right, and we don't, we don't, we don't miss them at all.
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00:11:43.799When there's been a hiccup in the office and perhaps the Wi-Fi has gone down, which it has a few times, we've still got the briefing out, but sometimes later than members expected.
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00:11:47.052And then we start to get emails from members saying where's the briefing?
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00:12:09.107So we know that, particularly in the pandemic, our members were relying on that briefing to help them set themselves up for the day or for the week, to get that information that they had asked us to get, to kind of be the source of authority, I guess.
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00:12:17.037Yes, sometimes I ask guests about quotes.
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00:12:33.490But taking your theme of voice and anyone that knows you or heard you speak will know that you like to lean on poetry in many of your important speeches I was wondering if there are any favourite lines of yours that you think are really helpful to get to to the heart of leadership.
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00:12:35.414Yes,
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00:12:37.801I thought that might be the case
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00:13:07.134So there was a moment, maybe a bit more than a year ago, when things were feeling very, very difficult in a particular context, and of an evening I was feeling quite down and also quite vulnerable because something had happened that day that made me feel unusually vulnerable.
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00:13:17.605And the absolutely wonderful Steve Rollett, who is my deputy and who is also my dear friend, spoke to me, phoned me.
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00:13:35.580He knew there was something wrong and we talked for a bit and then he sent me a poem, and the poem he sent me is called "A Centre and it's a poem about how you lead from a quiet centre.
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00:14:07.283So when things become very noisy and you can be distracted by that noise, when there's a lot that could have the opposite effect of a quiet centre, a lot to disturb the mind, it becomes all the more important to hold that centre of gravity, for yourself, to find that quiet centre, because I honestly believe that the best leadership decisions are taken from a quiet centre.
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00:14:10.519So that's the poem with the leadership message in it.
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00:14:11.290Thank you.
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00:14:20.302I've taken the opportunity just to bring up the opening line where it says you must hold your quiet centre where you do what only you can do.
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00:14:21.753Exactly that.
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00:14:22.716Exactly that.
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00:14:27.653Thinking about when things get tough.
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00:14:34.110Then, Leora, how do you go about other than having dear friends reach out and pick up the phone to you?
00:14:34.110 -->
00:14:38.819How do you go about finding people who give you energy, or how do you go about getting the energy you need?
00:14:42.346 -->
00:14:50.259So this is again quite a, I suppose, personal story and it involves another poem.
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00:15:04.924So the other thing, I think, when the world becomes too much, when you are feeling too much of those distractions, I suppose the question is how do you find your quiet centre?
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00:15:09.024Distractions, I suppose the question is how do you find your quiet centre?
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00:15:19.899And for me it is walking, and it is walking in nature and finding the peace of wild things, and it's the peace of wild things, I think, have a very calming effect on me.
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00:15:27.355So I went for a beautiful walk the other morning at sunrise when I had to be in London for a very early meeting.
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00:16:02.034So I stayed in a hotel in Westminster and I planned a route walking around St James's Park where the lake is, and there are loads of wild birds, including actually pelicans in St James's Park, and it was sunrise as the sun was coming up, these wild birds, including actually pelicans, in St James's Park and it was sunrise as the sun was coming up these wild birds were making a cacophony of noise on the lake and it just felt such a powerful moment about the restorative value of the piece of wild things.
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00:16:04.259I love that line.
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00:16:10.591The piece of wild things when you talked about a cacophony of noise though it's yeah, that paints quite a picture.
00:16:10.591 -->
00:16:37.331So, thinking of influence, then, I think of your experience as CEO of CST, and before that you're a director of policy at ASCL, on how best to influence government, because you have a really interesting role but representing the views of your members of the sector and the nature of that public-private relationship that you have to have with government and those around them.
00:16:37.331 -->
00:16:40.269How do you go about it?
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00:16:41.133What's your approach?
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00:16:44.836What have you learned about how best to influence?
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00:16:55.742So my approach can best be described as quiet diplomacy.
00:16:55.742 -->
00:17:01.553I'm quite a big fan of quiet leadership and I think that my style of influence has always been quiet diplomacy.
00:17:01.553 -->
00:17:04.459So that is the opposite of shouting in the press.
00:17:04.459 -->
00:17:11.662It is the way that you are deeply respectful of the role of government and also the role of civil servants.
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00:17:15.631Civil servants, I think, have had a really hard time in recent years.
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00:17:25.291They are professionals, people like the rest of us, trying to do their best in sometimes very difficult and challenging circumstances.
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00:17:30.157Trying to do their best in sometimes very difficult and challenging circumstances, so affording them the respect of talking to them first.
00:17:30.157 -->
00:17:42.769Likewise with ministers talking to ministers first.
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00:17:52.694Where there's a point of disagreement or a point of tension or friction in a policy debate, I would always first have that private engagement with government, with the DfE, with ministers, before I sought to speak publicly.
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00:17:59.317Very often you can resolve things in that quiet diplomacy space, but not always.
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00:18:49.040If you do need to speak out, then the rule that we have in CST is to speak with authority, so not in media soundbites, not to get clickbait, and I guess that's why I and CST don't have quite the sort of big public profile because, on balance, I try never to speak in that way that is going to, that can be used for clickbait, but rather to speak with, with the authority of the profession I serve, of the members I serve I was wondering what, what personality characteristics do you think are important in a leader in the 21st century?
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00:18:54.512Can you share a story, perhaps, that illustrates why it's important to you as well?
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00:18:57.818I can.
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00:19:03.944So I think there are lots of different ways to lead effectively.
00:19:03.944 -->
00:19:07.455I don't think there is one way to lead effectively.
00:19:07.455 -->
00:19:18.404I think lots of people, including me, make the mistake of looking to a leader you admire and then trying to be like that leader.
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00:19:24.038And there's lots we can learn from those we admire and lots I have learned from those I admire.
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00:19:50.248But the thing that I've realised, perhaps more latterly in my leadership career, is I am most powerful as a leader when I am most authentically myself, and that has taken me perhaps too long to realise, and it's only in the last year, actually, that I've had the courage to share more of myself and my own stories.
00:19:51.048 -->
00:19:54.415So I'm instinctively quite a deeply private person.
00:19:54.737 -->
00:20:05.105I don't find it easy to share all of myself, to bring all of myself to leadership, and in the last year I've learned the power of doing that.
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00:20:36.677So I think up until then my leadership was very much determined by lots of women will say this being the most knowledgeable person in the room making sure I did double the preparation of possibly the men who are going to be in the room, because if you lead in a world that's predominantly male, you need to be a source of authority, and I had understood that that source of authority was being the most knowledgeable person in the room.
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00:20:48.204I still think that's true, by the way, except I now think there is something equally powerful about bringing myself into that conversation thing.
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00:20:55.118Equally powerful about bringing myself into that conversation and recently, as I've learned how to do that and it is quite recent, I think I've been practicing doing more of it.
00:20:55.118 -->
00:21:11.310I think I've got more and more feedback, particularly from other women, saying that that is, that is powerful, that that is what they want to see.
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00:21:29.975They want to see women um, other women leading in very, very authentic, powerful ways, bringing them, how, bringing their whole selves to the room and, uh, that that is a perhaps a counterbalance to some of the ways that we have been taught to lead in the past.
00:21:31.605 -->
00:21:37.994And do you know, because you said that was relatively over the last year do you know what the catalyst for you was to take?
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00:21:41.715You said you're deeply private, Leora, so I imagine it was a very conscious step.
00:21:41.715 -->
00:21:43.531So what was the catalyst for you?
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00:21:48.260It was coaching, without any shadow of a doubt.
00:21:48.260 -->
00:21:58.644There was a point, in around April last year, when again it was a bit of a low, low point for me.
00:21:58.644 -->
00:22:00.027I was working very, very hard.
00:22:00.027 -->
00:22:14.965I think I was starting to see some of the symptoms of what could have become burnout if I had let it go too far and I knew that I had to make an intervention, a very conscious intervention, to do things differently.
00:22:14.965 -->
00:22:22.508And one of my trustees suggested that a coach might be helpful and I had an instinctive reaction against coaching.
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00:22:33.376Actually, I wasn't sure that it would work for me at all and I found the most wonderful coach who has been working with me since May and has.
00:22:33.917 -->
00:22:44.817And the arc of that journey through coaching has has helped me to bring more of myself into my leadership journey.
00:22:45.960 -->
00:22:46.441Thank you.
00:22:46.441 -->
00:22:52.991I was almost going to ask you a question about someone that's influenced you at your leadership, but you've almost.
00:22:52.991 -->
00:22:59.724You've said actually loads of people have influenced and sometimes being your authentic self is is important as well.
00:22:59.724 -->
00:23:09.574But could you perhaps share, share, describe a time when listening to someone else's story that perhaps changed your perspective as a leader?
00:23:13.779 -->
00:23:23.919Gosh, there's probably quite a lot of stories there, but I've got to be, I think, a bit careful because I don't want to be telling other people's stories.
00:23:23.919 -->
00:23:26.950I think you've got to be respectful of that.
00:23:26.950 -->
00:23:42.500So I'm going to focus on a leader that I've learned a lot from because of the way he leads, and that is my absolutely wonderful chair, Sir Hamid Patel.
00:23:42.500 -->
00:23:57.952Sir Hamid Patel, who has been working with me in the capacity of being CST's chair now for a little over a year, and I am endlessly fascinated by the way he leads.
00:23:57.952 -->
00:24:13.606So most leaders lead loudly, they talk a lot, they're very present within a meeting.
00:24:13.606 -->
00:24:14.888They will have a lot to say on any one thing.
00:24:14.888 -->
00:24:15.711Hamid doesn't do that.
00:24:16.231 -->
00:24:18.395Hamid is very quiet.
00:24:18.395 -->
00:24:33.192He's a very quiet leader and that has, I think, a very powerful effect because when he does speak and that has, I think, a very powerful effect because when he does speak, he really has something to say and everybody listens to him.
00:24:33.192 -->
00:24:46.480So I've watched him chair meetings in the most skilful way, where he hardly says anything at all, but he enables everybody in that room to feel valued, to feel like they can bring something to the table.
00:24:46.480 -->
00:25:18.208He is deeply respectful of everybody in the room and makes a sort of conscious effort to make sure that people have come in and spoken, that people feel comfortable, that they feel that they have a right to be at that table, and there is such an art in that and I'm afraid, although I watch him and admire it hugely and I haven't I haven't got to anywhere near that level of expertise yet and I still, I think I still speak too much in in meetings, as I think most leaders do.
00:25:20.671 -->
00:25:21.852What's on your mind this week?
00:25:22.413 -->
00:25:23.433what are you thinking about?
00:25:26.498 -->
00:25:27.538What's on my mind this week?
00:25:27.538 -->
00:25:42.797on my mind this week is our secretary of state's new political narrative.
00:25:42.797 -->
00:26:08.898So a couple of weeks ago, at the CST conference, secretary of State gave what I think was I called it in an article that we've just published in Tears Today a quietly authoritative speech in which she changed the political narrative, and I'm not sure that we have properly understood just how much that political narrative potentially has changed.
00:26:08.898 -->
00:26:17.500So she talked about not just the opportunity government's opportunity mission, but the twin themes of achieving and thriving.
00:26:17.500 -->
00:26:29.839That is very powerful language and it is a long time since we have used that language of thriving within the English education system.
00:26:29.839 -->
00:26:38.378And, for the avoidance of doubt, the Secretary of State did not mean for one second that thriving was something other than achieving.
00:26:38.378 -->
00:26:50.125So at CST we use the language of flourishing and along with the Church of England and the Catholic Education Service, we've just published a paper, as I'm sure you know at the conference, called human flourishing or flourishing together actually.
00:26:51.067 -->
00:27:05.829And I think that that concept of flourishing, so how we enable our children in our schools to reach their optimal development, that's the core purpose of education, but also how we enable them to lead a good life.
00:27:05.829 -->
00:27:15.772The language of flourishing, I think, encapsulates what the Secretary of State talks about when she talks about both achieving and thriving.
00:27:15.772 -->
00:27:19.398So I think that's very powerful.
00:27:20.424 -->
00:27:36.150And I'm just about to go off actually to a rather intimidating set of very senior public sector leaders, at the invitation of the cabinet office's leadership college for government, to talk about the opportunity mission.
00:27:37.894 -->
00:27:46.478This is why I've been thinking about it so much, because I've been thinking about what do I say to these very senior people in the public sector about the opportunity mission?
00:27:47.038 -->
00:27:50.770And I think it is about this new political narrative.
00:27:50.770 -->
00:28:11.435But it is also about how we as public sector leaders need to have a different mental model of leadership, which is something akin to what CST has been talking about for a number of years now with our conceptualisation of civic leadership, so how we lead other civic actors for a wider common good.
00:28:11.435 -->
00:28:19.576But I think that that wider common good needs a framing and I think the Opportunity Mission potentially allows us to give it a framing.
00:28:19.576 -->
00:28:37.998And I think there might be something in there about that framing being a common understanding of childhood, what we mean by childhood and what we want for our children, not just in the next five or 10 years, but perhaps in longer terms than that, perhaps in the next 20 years.
00:28:37.998 -->
00:28:52.094How is it we want to construct childhood as a society, and then how we mobilise all the adults in a child's life, including public sector professionals, around that common vision of childhood?
00:28:53.135 -->
00:28:55.586ounds like you're up for a good conversation this afternoon then
00:28:57.368 -->
00:28:57.669I hope, so
00:28:59.550 -->
00:29:03.154Wanted to ask, time.
00:29:03.154 -->
00:29:13.874We can't create more time, but we can choose how to spend it that there's an awful lot of ways you could spend your time, Leora.
00:29:13.874 -->
00:29:21.269I was curious what do you do to intentionally make the best use of your time and where you choose to spend it?
00:29:22.792 -->
00:29:23.354Gosh, Nick.
00:29:23.354 -->
00:29:26.038The honest answer is I'm not very good at it.
00:29:26.038 -->
00:29:28.221I'm still learning.
00:29:28.221 -->
00:29:37.076So a colleague of mine a while ago said to me you need to think about where you put yourself.
00:29:37.076 -->
00:29:39.725Particularly as CST grows.
00:29:39.725 -->
00:29:44.652You need to be much more conscious and deliberative about where you put yourself.
00:29:44.652 -->
00:29:53.629So those words ring in my ears because I am nowhere near conscious or deliberative enough about that.
00:29:53.629 -->
00:29:56.634It's still something I'm learning to do.
00:29:56.634 -->
00:29:59.192I find it quite hard to say no.
00:29:59.192 -->
00:30:06.699So if somebody asks me to do something, I'm very likely to say yes, of course I'll try to do that.
00:30:06.699 -->
00:30:15.138Of course I'll try to come and work with your trust board or come and visit your principal's conference and do a speech.
00:30:15.138 -->
00:30:27.799I think I always will do that, but I think the time has perhaps come for me to be more conscious of where I put myself than I, than I have until now, and I guess I would.
00:30:27.799 -->
00:30:37.552That might be also something that I say to to other leaders in education think carefully about where you put yourself, because I think otherwise you could exhaust yourself.
00:30:38.855 -->
00:30:43.201I was almost going to ask you the question of what's the best advice you would give a leader.
00:30:43.201 -->
00:30:46.809Is there anything else you'd add to what you've just shared, or would that be it?
00:30:48.732 -->
00:30:53.709so there's a another way of talking about that, which I also often use, which is keep your balance.
00:30:54.632 -->
00:31:10.221And so I'm not sure I'm I really sign up to the kind of work-life balance thing, because I think work is, and it is, one expression of the way we lead our lives and for me it's a really important part of who I am.
00:31:10.221 -->
00:31:17.259My identity as a human being is also very entwined with who I am as a professional.
00:31:17.259 -->
00:31:26.359But I think there have been moments in my life when I don't think I have kept my balance in quite the right way.
00:31:26.359 -->
00:31:29.472I'm trying to be better at it now, actually.
00:31:29.472 -->
00:31:52.039So to just know that I feel centred enough to bring myself to work and be entirely present, I suppose, coming back to what we talked about earlier with the noise and the distraction, we talked about earlier with the noise and the distraction, so you can only bring your full self into your, into your work, if you are centred and if you are balanced.
00:31:52.039 -->
00:31:57.394And if you are unbalanced, then, I think what if I am unbalanced?
00:31:57.394 -->
00:32:00.964I think that's where I make less good decisions.
00:32:00.964 -->
00:32:03.329So it comes back to the quiet centre.
00:32:06.215 -->
00:32:13.959Final question, then, I think what's the mission that drives you and connects your leadership roles, Leora?
00:32:18.069 -->
00:32:28.296So I'm going to say something that I've said quite frequently at the moment I believe education is a good in itself.
00:32:28.296 -->
00:32:31.855I think lots of people claim different kinds of purposes for it.
00:32:31.855 -->
00:32:34.273I believe it is a good in itself.
00:32:34.273 -->
00:32:39.576It is fundamentally what it means to be human is to educate our children.
00:32:39.576 -->
00:32:48.944It is fundamentally what it means to be human is to educate our children, but I also believe that education can be mobilised as a force for social justice, as distinct from social mobility.
00:32:48.944 -->
00:32:50.850So you've probably heard me say this before, Nick.
00:32:50.850 -->
00:32:56.366So social mobility is lifting up a few, social justice is lifting up all.
00:32:56.366 -->
00:33:01.516I think education is the way in society, we lift up all.
00:33:02.458 -->
00:33:05.491Thank you, and thank you for joining me today, Leora.
00:33:05.491 -->
00:33:07.440I think that's a perfect place to stop.
00:33:07.440 -->
00:33:12.373I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I do hope our listeners have as well.
00:33:12.373 -->
00:33:17.429We're now going to head over to soak up some of the atmosphere from your recent conference.
00:33:19.051 -->
00:33:19.492Ollie Lane.
00:33:19.492 -->
00:33:23.019I'm Managing Director at PLMR, which is a communications agency.
00:33:23.019 -->
00:33:25.051We work across lots of different sectors, including education.
00:33:25.986 -->
00:33:27.070What's on your mind this week?
00:33:28.006 -->
00:33:43.263This week I've been particularly interested to hear about Bridget Phillipson and hear her speech on academies and her direction of travel on that front, whether she's supportive of them or otherwise, and her attempts, I think, to kind of bring unity across the system.
00:33:44.227 -->
00:33:45.573Hi, my name's Stephen Morales.
00:33:45.573 -->
00:33:48.134I'm the Chief Executive of the Institute of School Business Leadership.
00:33:48.786 -->
00:33:49.469What's on your mind this week?
00:33:51.566 -->
00:33:53.413Well, heavens, so much.
00:33:58.771 -->
00:34:14.137So, obviously, we had the announcement from the chancellor last week in terms of education funding, and I think we are all accepting of the fact that it's an incredibly fiscally challenging environment and so a little bit more money is helpful.
00:34:14.597 -->
00:34:29.792It's not going to fix all the problems, and it's certainly not going to fix all the problems today or tomorrow, but it shows a direction of travel and, you know, in a year's time, let's hope that we can revisit this space and and we get a better deal.
00:34:30.594 -->
00:34:37.436But I think there is an imperative for schools and trusts to do the very best with what they've got in front of them.
00:34:37.436 -->
00:34:45.912And, whilst we can continue to campaign for a better deal, our priority needs to be with the here and now and what's available to us.
00:34:45.912 -->
00:34:48.313And just one other thing very quickly.
00:34:48.313 -->
00:35:06.213I think we're all 48 hours, whatever it is 72 hours since the American general election and there's an outcome that some anticipated, others didn't, and we have to see how that plays out and what it does to the geopolitical landscape.
00:35:08.046 -->
00:35:09.131Hi, I'm Gail Brown.
00:35:09.131 -->
00:35:12.696I'm CEO of Ebor Academy Trust, based in Yorkshire and Humber.
00:35:13.426 -->
00:35:14.591What's on your mind this week?
00:35:15.185 -->
00:35:33.028So on my mind this particular week is we've been working behind the scenes for a number of months now, following various external reviews, various internal reviews, on a large restructure that will affect quite a large part of our organisation, and this week we've launched it.
00:35:33.028 -->
00:35:35.997So that's been prevalent in my mind this week.
00:35:36.665 -->
00:35:36.987I'm Steve Howell.
00:35:36.987 -->
00:35:38.674I'm Commercial Director at Red Kite Learning Trusts in Harrogate and Leeds.
00:35:42.408 -->
00:35:43.752What's on your mind this week?
00:35:44.674 -->
00:35:59.172I think the thing that's hit me this week is what Leora was saying in her talk this morning around child poverty, and it's just such a horrific figure 4.3 million children in poverty in the UK.
00:35:59.172 -->
00:36:08.876She said that was 30% of the total, but what really hit me was that figure of a million children in destitution.
00:36:08.876 -->
00:36:16.135I mean it feels like a Victorian word, but we have surely got to do more to address that.
00:36:17.237 -->
00:36:17.698I'm Ernest Jenavs.
00:36:18.038 -->
00:36:19.910I'm the founder and CEO of Edurio.
00:36:20.392 -->
00:36:21.646What's on your mind this week?
00:36:22.389 -->
00:36:27.172The week started off with a bit of sense of being depressed about humanity.
00:36:27.172 -->
00:36:47.523We are in global election week, and then I've been really looking forward to meeting with the people I know and love here at the CST conference, and so there's been a sense of starting to be a bit worried and scared, but then feeling that the people around us make it all right.
00:36:47.944 -->
00:36:52.956Biggest strategic leadership challenge you think looking ahead over the next three years?
00:36:53.517 -->
00:36:59.473We've got a new government, of course, and they have new ideas and a fresh perspective.
00:36:59.473 -->
00:37:23.899I think quite a bit of what they're planning to do remains to be seen, but I think how that affects schools, academy trusts, businesses like ours is something that we will both need to respond to and prepare for, but, at the same time, be clear about what we think our trajectory and travel should be.
00:37:23.899 -->
00:37:31.867So I think it's both important that you reflect on what the government is doing and plans to do, but also that you stick to your own path.
00:37:32.829 -->
00:37:34.871Biggest strategic leadership challenge.
00:37:34.871 -->
00:37:36.794Looking ahead, say, over the next three years?
00:37:38.997 -->
00:37:42.121Capacity, capacity, capability, capability, capability.
00:37:42.121 -->
00:37:56.378So, in terms of what do we need to be thinking really carefully about if we're going to continue in this hybrid system is how do we give schools, teachers and therefore children's lifetimes.
00:37:56.378 -->
00:37:59.595How do we give that the best chance of succeeding?
00:38:01.825 -->
00:38:04.432Biggest strategic leadership challenge looking ahead over the next three years?
00:38:05.193 -->
00:38:12.918So we're a primary only trust um, obviously, around the funding issues, particularly in primary only multi-academy trusts.
00:38:12.918 -->
00:38:18.715That's something that I've talked openly about um and I'm very upfront about it.
00:38:18.715 -->
00:38:34.010I think for us, for me, the biggest strategic leadership challenge is making sure that we get the best quality of professional development in order to get the best people in front of our children, to get the best outcomes for our children.
00:38:34.010 -->
00:38:48.213With the purse that we're given and it's easy to talk about the purse, but actually having more in your purse enables you to do sometimes better things and wider things, and I think for me, it's always about getting the best for.
00:38:48.213 -->
00:39:01.005But but I think also just to swing that around it is a challenge, but I also maintain the view that we as a sector are very good at doing a lot of stuff with very little.
00:39:01.005 -->
00:39:06.157So I don't I don't want to be burdened by that, but it is something that I'm challenged by.
00:39:06.985 -->
00:39:11.235Biggest strategic leadership challenge, looking ahead over the next, say, three years.
00:39:12.197 -->
00:39:24.085I think it's working with clarity on our plan to bridge the equity gap so related really to that problem of destitution and child poverty.
00:39:24.085 -->
00:39:34.051How are we going to work across our disparate collection of schools, which range, by the way, from five percent to seventy percent free school meals?
00:39:34.051 -->
00:39:39.113How are we going to bring equity and reach all those children and families?
00:39:40.218 -->
00:39:44.390Biggest strategic leadership challenge, looking ahead over, say, the next three years.
00:39:45.993 -->
00:39:48.999Trust structure and operating models.
00:39:48.999 -->
00:40:03.114So we've been working on some research seeing how trusts of different sizes differ, and one of the findings was the trusts who want to grow aren't the trusts who believe they will grow.
00:40:03.114 -->
00:40:23.416So the larger the trust, the more they've spent time on digital strategy, on well-being or some of the other trust-level elements, and so the system itself may go into consolidation mode or may continue slowly evolving and maturing.
00:40:23.416 -->
00:40:32.960But I think whatever way it develops, the structure and how the trusts operate will have to go through another lens of maturity.
00:40:34.866 -->
00:40:40.838When looking for inspiration from outside the sector to meet a challenge or take an opportunity, where do you look?
00:40:41.807 -->
00:40:42.932without being too cliched.
00:40:42.932 -->
00:40:44.497I just often look at my own children.
00:40:44.497 -->
00:40:58.455They have a very nice simple perspective often on whether something is the right thing to do or not, and I think that is usually a pretty good yardstick is what would my kids do on something?
00:41:01.460 -->
00:41:10.129When looking for inspiration from outside the sector to say meet a challenge or take an opportunity, where would you go?
00:41:12.416 -->
00:41:30.377so I think we we shouldn't be afraid to look at industry, and I know that you know public sector are always slightly nervous about leaning into the commercial world, but I think we should be less precious about that.
00:41:30.377 -->
00:41:45.349And it isn't that we have to pivot to a for-profit mentality, but I think there are really well-defined approaches to to organise that result in organisational success.
00:41:45.349 -->
00:41:53.515So, you know, let's, let's lean into that and and let's not be way behind, way behind the curve, in the way that we have been for for many years.
00:41:53.515 -->
00:42:02.299So, and that isn't in any way to dampen or to dilute the brilliant work that educators do.
00:42:02.299 -->
00:42:08.638But let's be honest, we're not brilliant at business and ops.
00:42:08.638 -->
00:42:10.692It's new to us and we're evolving.
00:42:10.692 -->
00:42:15.291And you know, the academy movement really, as it is today, is still quite embryonic.
00:42:16.447 -->
00:42:23.076When looking for inspiration from outside the sector to say meet a challenge or take an opportunity, where do you look?
00:42:29.726 -->
00:42:44.149I'm very aware that I run an organisation that absolutely has, obviously, education at its core, but a lot of the challenges in our organisation aren't necessarily driven by education.
00:42:44.149 -->
00:42:46.735They're driven by more of the business side of things.
00:42:46.735 -->
00:42:53.860So I think quite a lot of my recent inspiration has been looking outside the sector.
00:42:53.860 -->
00:42:59.914So I was very fortunate to, for example, learn a lot from apple.
00:42:59.914 -->
00:43:09.714I learn a lot and seek a lot of advice from people, even within our own organisation, but from a trustee perspective.
00:43:09.714 -->
00:43:19.647So some of our trustees are really high quality professionals who don't work in the education sector, but actually I I seek a lot of inspiration from them.
00:43:19.647 -->
00:43:41.298So, whether that be our HR trustee, who was involved quite a lot in the city, whether it be our risk trustee, who was involved in building a huge city out in Saudi Arabia, I'm always learning from them with a view to what my job entails.
00:43:42.926 -->
00:43:48.859When looking for inspiration from outside the sector to meet a challenge or take an opportunity, where do you look?
00:43:50.627 -->
00:44:06.017I really enjoy speaking to partners, people that we work with in our trust and always try and understand what their needs are and their business models are and how we can work together and learn from each other.
00:44:07.426 -->
00:44:14.559When looking for inspiration from outside the sector to say meet a challenge or take an opportunity, where do you look?
00:44:29.925 -->
00:44:32.009I think inspiration frequently comes from being able to not be busy but be forward-looking and strategic.
00:44:32.009 -->
00:44:50.507So actually, if I think about inspiration, I think about my hobby, which is woodworking, and if I spend a day focusing on not chopping up my fingers while doing something, creating something different, I find that frequently brings me inspiration to push ahead in the, in the work I do.
00:44:51.009 -->
00:44:55.487Tell me about someone who's helped you become the person you are today, who's really influenced you and how?
00:44:55.507 -->
00:45:03.974That's one of those questions you could answer lots and lots of people, and I'm not going to fall into that trap, but I am questions you could answer lots and lots of people, and I'm not going to fall into that trap, but I am going to pick one person.
00:45:03.974 -->
00:45:33.147And that doesn't mean that there haven't been other people, though, who have been really important, and the guy I'm going to mention is an old chief sub-editor on the first newspaper I worked on many years ago too too many years to mention a guy called Chris Mardell, and Chris was an old hack, and he used to spend hours and hours with me improving my writing, how I reported, how I wrote stories for the newspaper.
00:45:33.147 -->
00:45:56.078He could be a pretty tough taskmaster, but and at the time I didn't always like it, but I did always know that he was spending a lot of time to help me, and I always appreciated that and and hope that I've similarly tried to help other people in terms of feedback and being constructive, and so on and so forth.
00:45:57.186 -->
00:46:03.711So tell me about someone who's helped you become the person you are today, who's really influenced you and how?
00:46:13.292 -->
00:46:13.292mean there are so many people for so many in so many different, different ways.
00:46:13.292 -->
00:46:37.025So, outside of education, my uncles were political activists during the Franco era and they fought really hard to get to create an environment where fairness, equality and inclusivity mattered.
00:46:38.656 -->
00:46:47.167And so in my core, I am inspired by the things they did against all the odds.
00:46:47.167 -->
00:46:49.292One of them was deported from Spain.
00:46:49.292 -->
00:46:54.671The other one spent three years in in Central America because he was wasn't safe.
00:46:54.671 -->
00:47:27.925It wasn't safe for him to be in the country, but within education itself, there are so many people and too many to list really but people like Peter Lauener and Sir David Carter and indeed Leora and her, the way that she's built a narrative around education and the extent to which the system can find solutions itself and present those solutions rather than waiting for government to set the direction.
00:47:28.165 -->
00:47:34.206tell me about someone who's helped you become the person you are today, who's really influenced you and how?
00:47:34.867 -->
00:47:44.413okay, so it's a bit cliched, I suppose, started with some great teachers and that is true, so they've certainly influenced me.
00:47:44.705 -->
00:48:16.573I think my predecessor in my role influenced me a great deal, very different person to him but actually learnt a lot from him, and I think that's helped me in my development of roles, I think, in terms of, I think it's really hard to nail someone, but I think some people who who help me are are my peers, in my current role, I learn a lot from them and continue to learn a lot from them.
00:48:17.034 -->
00:48:19.139who's really influenced you and how?
00:48:20.771 -->
00:48:23.791I was thinking about someone who's really helped me and influenced me.
00:48:23.791 -->
00:48:29.528It was an entrepreneur that I met and we ended up going into a venture together.
00:48:29.528 -->
00:48:44.760So it was between the school where I worked and his fledgling organisation and I learned a lot from him commercially, but also, I think, around the way to approach leadership aspects.
00:48:44.760 -->
00:48:48.996But I think fundamentally it was about execution.
00:48:48.996 -->
00:48:59.640So it's all very well coming up with ideas, but until you execute them, make them happen, turn an idea into reality, it's not really worth anything.
00:49:02.708 -->
00:49:04.793Tell me about someone who's helped you become the person you are today.
00:49:04.793 -->
00:49:06.545Who's really influenced and how?
00:49:08.407 -->
00:49:40.894today, thinking about how I am as an individual, I'm thinking of Claudia Barwell, who's a friend and a community gatherer or leader in education space, and she opened my eyes to how we as individuals first interact with each other as people rather than representatives of their organisation, and she brought me into a wonderful community.
00:49:40.894 -->
00:49:51.458And so over the last couple of days I've met many friends and I know I am more authentic as a person because I've been inspired by her.
00:49:52.526 -->
00:49:55.059What leadership superpower do you wish you had?
00:49:55.766 -->
00:49:59.951I think probably it would be most useful if I could look ahead and know what was coming.
00:49:59.951 -->
00:50:02.794I think probably it would be most useful if I could look ahead and know what was coming.
00:50:02.794 -->
00:50:15.123I think we all try to predict what the government might do or what might be around the corner and I think if I could see ahead whether that's one month, six months, 12 months, five years, etc.
00:50:15.123 -->
00:50:17.084I think that would be incredibly helpful.
00:50:22.675 -->
00:50:24.281What leadership superpower do I wish I had?
00:50:24.281 -->
00:50:30.775It's a really, really important question, but it's so difficult to answer.
00:50:30.775 -->
00:50:47.713I think in the end it's to be understood and we work really hard to try to be understood and sometimes we connect, sometimes the message lands, but because we deal with such a wide variety of personas, what lands with one group?
00:50:47.713 -->
00:50:51.965One community completely alienates another.
00:50:51.965 -->
00:51:00.577So I guess the superpower really is the ability to connect with that range of personas that we have to deal with every single day.
00:51:02.167 -->
00:51:07.098Oh, what leadership superpower do I wish I had?
00:51:07.098 -->
00:51:13.584I think that's really hard, Leadership superpower.
00:51:13.584 -->
00:51:23.960So, as a leader, I am absolutely obsessed about everybody being human.
00:51:23.960 -->
00:51:34.340So I really try and focus in our organisation on doesn't matter about your role, doesn't matter about what your title is.
00:51:34.340 -->
00:51:36.105I'm not title obsessed.
00:51:36.105 -->
00:51:44.028I'm obsessed about everybody being human and seen as being human and everybody having an active part to play.
00:51:44.028 -->
00:51:56.109I would like everybody, as a leader, to be able to see that and I think sometimes they don't.
00:51:56.109 -->
00:52:09.219I think sometimes, particularly in our sector, we can be quite hierarchical and I think for me the power is in the people in your organisation, not necessarily in the titles that they hold.
00:52:09.785 -->
00:52:11.733What leadership superpower do you wish you had?
00:52:13.165 -->
00:52:17.437I think being able to dredge up kindness in difficult situations.
00:52:18.306 -->
00:52:20.349What leadership superpower do you wish you had?
00:52:27.080 -->
00:52:35.294Follow-through, because it is very easy to create new strategies and new ideas and get excited about them.
00:52:35.294 -->
00:52:50.760But the most difficult thing that I've personally faced is being excited about them six months on, nine months on, and I think if I had a better capability to do follow through, many of the things I'm working on would move much, much faster.
00:52:51.246 -->
00:52:52.913Favourite leadership characteristic.
00:52:55.306 -->
00:53:00.178I think it's really great when you've got leaders who really clearly are on your side.
00:53:00.178 -->
00:53:06.971Think it's really great when, um, you've got leaders who really clearly are on your side, whether they are giving you a bit of tough feedback or a bit of constructive feedback or whatever it might be.
00:53:06.971 -->
00:53:13.628I think really knowing that that leaders are on your side and have got your back, I think that's a really a really good characteristic.
00:53:14.989 -->
00:53:16.852favourite leadership characteristic
00:53:20.836 -->
00:53:20.836inclusivity
00:53:22.898 -->
00:53:32.932favourite leadership characteristic oh being genuine and being you.
00:53:33.352 -->
00:53:34.814I think we talked about being you.
00:53:34.814 -->
00:53:47.929I think that's so important, not, I think, humility a little bit, but not to the point of being pitiful.
00:53:47.929 -->
00:53:52.603I think being genuine, accepting responsibility.
00:53:52.603 -->
00:53:59.617I accept that I have a role that often involves, you know, and difficult decisions.
00:53:59.617 -->
00:54:07.238I never shy away from that, but actually I never, ever assume, just because I hold this role, that I am always right.
00:54:07.986 -->
00:54:09.651Favourite leadership characteristic.
00:54:10.273 -->
00:54:25.597Of mine, I think, being able to accommodate people from all walks of life and connect with people, regardless of their background or position.
00:54:26.486 -->
00:54:28.053Favourite leadership characteristic.
00:54:30.227 -->
00:54:31.332Can I say follow through again.
00:54:33.186 -->
00:54:36.957What quality do you see in young people you wish you had or had more of?
00:54:40.046 -->
00:54:54.194That ability to not over complicate stuff and they do stuff because they think it's the right thing to do and it's a very, very simple way, and I don't mean that in a critical way at all.
00:54:54.194 -->
00:54:55.659It's a really great quality.
00:54:55.659 -->
00:54:59.875They, they just want to do something and they see the good in it and therefore that's something that they should do.
00:55:08.751 -->
00:55:12.045And I think that simplistic I suppose simplistic way of thinking is a great thing to have
00:55:12.125 -->
00:55:12.125.
00:55:12.125 -->
00:55:15.492What quality?
00:55:15.552 -->
00:55:18.485do you see in young people you wish you had or had more of?
00:55:19.646 -->
00:55:21.590Look, young people are so, they're just amazing.
00:55:21.590 -->
00:55:22.772I'm in awe of young people are so, they're just amazing.
00:55:22.772 -->
00:55:29.312I'm in awe of young people and I feel every day I feel a little bit more left behind.
00:55:31.116 -->
00:55:40.262And I'll just use a very quick anecdote so my daughter's 30 now, but for the last 10 years we've had really healthy conversations and she's really challenged me.
00:55:40.262 -->
00:55:46.707She's really challenged me in terms of my own biases and my own, my own thinking, and she has a different set of reference points.
00:55:46.707 -->
00:55:51.345You know, she reads, she gets her information from different channels.
00:55:51.345 -->
00:55:55.915You know, not not traditional media, the newspapers and and terrestrial tv.
00:55:55.915 -->
00:56:09.252It's coming at her from different angles, but she's very good at triangulating, so she doesn't just look at one particular version, she'll go for various.
00:56:11.018 -->
00:56:13.968But she's deeply curious.
00:56:13.968 -->
00:56:21.591She's got information coming at her and consumes information in a way that I couldn't have dreamt of at her age.
00:56:21.591 -->
00:56:27.268And it's not just her, you know, in the summer we have 20 of her friends around.
00:56:27.268 -->
00:56:36.988It's a kind of tradition and I can jump around the various groups and we have brilliant conversations, much better conversations, by the way, than I have with my 50 year old counterparts in the pub.
00:56:39.192 -->
00:56:43.179what quality do you see in young people you wish you had or had more of?
00:56:46.067 -->
00:56:54.730I think young people and I've spent a lot of years of my career with early years and reception children I just love.
00:56:54.730 -->
00:57:02.013They are fearless and I think a characteristic of young children is that they do not carry the fear.
00:57:02.013 -->
00:57:04.754I think the older we get, the more worried.
00:57:04.754 -->
00:57:10.355Even answering these questions, nick, you're worried about, am I giving the right answer?
00:57:10.355 -->
00:57:17.256Young children are great at just saying it as they are and I think that, for me, is a really good quality.
00:57:18.506 -->
00:57:22.877What quality do you see in young people you wish you had or had more of?
00:57:24.766 -->
00:57:34.597As a foster carer, I see children who are truly resilient, despite the fact that they've had perhaps a traumatic episode in their lives.
00:57:34.597 -->
00:57:35.499So resilience.
00:57:36.045 -->
00:57:41.478And what quality do you see in young people you wish you had or had more of?
00:57:43.706 -->
00:57:48.057The ability to be authentic in expressing their views.
00:57:53.786 -->
00:57:54.649Thank you for joining me.
00:57:54.649 -->
00:57:58.622I look forward to you joining us on the next in our series of Ed Influence podcast.
