Ep. 43: An Interview with Heidi Armstrong

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Hey everybody, and welcome back to Ed on Ed, the podcast where we dive deep into the topic of eating disorders, looking below the surface and beyond the basic.
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I'm your host, Liz.
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I'm ready to learn something new.
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I hope you are too.
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It is a muggy, humid day in Austin, Texas, and I'm joined as always by Dr.
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Ed Tyson, a physician with over 30 years' experience in the treatment of eating disorders.
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Good afternoon, Dr.
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Tyson.
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How are you doing?
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I'm doing good.
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I'm excited today.
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We have a special guest.
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Yes, uh, it has been a hot minute since we've had an interview episode, and I'm so excited to introduce today's guest.
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She is a horse girl, a certified dog masseuse, somebody who is an avid mountain biker, swimmer, skier, cross-country skier.
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Um, just found out she also does search and rescue with her dog.
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I mean, really, there's so much we could talk about with our guests today.
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And I'm so excited to introduce you guys to Heidi Armstrong.
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Welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you so much for having me here.
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So this is a really exciting episode in terms of I'm full of questions that I want to ask you.
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I was able to read a bit about your backstory on your website, The Injured Athletes Toolbox.
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And I guess my first question is what draws you to sports?
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That is a very interesting question that I could probably spend several hours answering.
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I did not have a good childhood and a good upbringing, which Dr.
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Tyson helped me unearth part of that because it was in my subconscious pre-verbal days.
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And it cascaded over into my young childhood where I could remember things, and I remember always feeling like a burden in the house, like I wasn't wanted, and I wanted to do anything I could to get out of the house.
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And my first foray into sports was riding horses.
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And I met a girl in our neighborhood who rode horses, and then I asked my parents if I could start riding, and incredibly they said yes, because they said no to most everything.
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And that was my way out of the house.
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So I saw on your website your letter that you wrote to Santa asking for a horse.
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A dog.
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A dog.
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Oh, it was a dog.
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Oh, okay.
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I forgot that.
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But that's great.
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So you decided you'd get a horse and you you wanted the horse, and then you got one, and then you just kind of hung around with it, or did you start to actually I I didn't ever get a horse.
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My parents allowed me to take lessons, and I rode one of several horses at the barn.
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But I started finding jobs for myself so that I could stay at the barn longer and longer and longer.
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I was this little kid and I would walk around asking the adults questions like, How do you groom a horse?
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How do you braid their manes?
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How do you take care of them for shows?
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And then I'd practice on the school horses.
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And then once I got good at it, then I'd say, Well, I can exercise your horse and I can braid your horse's mane.
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But all of this was my way to get out of the house for longer and longer periods of time.
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So it was, hey, mom, can you drop me off at the barn at eight on Saturday and can you pick me up at five?
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Because that would keep me out of the house for the entire day.
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Right.
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So there's that level to it, but just in hearing you talk about the horses, there's also the level of genuine interest that was sparked from being around them, right?
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Like it has the benefit of I don't have to be at home, I can be in a safe space, but it seems like there was something else intrinsic that was sparked from being near horses.
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Absolutely.
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It's a language that I had between me and the horse, and we listened to each other and we respected each other and we honored each other in a way that I could not get from my parents.
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Now, I could get it from my grandma.
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I tell people that horses and my grandma raise me, and they're the reason why I am alive today.
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Horses are so I'm definitely a dog person.
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And I think a lot of the stuff you're saying about horses really resonates to me with dogs, and all of the work you've done with dogs, I'm sure there's a connection there.
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There's just something so beautiful about animals that work in close connection with people, the way that horses and dogs do.
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And it can be this beautiful relationship.
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I uh recently had the privilege of being on a commercial set where we were interviewing a 104-year-old, um, and he was a cowboy.
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Uh and you know, you're thinking, oh, this is this really old Texas dude, cowboy through and through, every single question.
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He was just talking about horses and how much he loved them, and it was really sensitive and soft.
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It's just like a good horse is a good friend.
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If you put in what you put in, you get back tenfold.
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If you treat them with respect, they treat you with respect, and it'll be the best friend you've ever made in your life.
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It was, it was really moving and beautiful.
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Um, and and I hear that with you too.
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It's kind of like not only are you doing an activity, you're making new friends, sort of, with these horses.
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It's also how I learned to trust.
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I trusted my grandmother, but I didn't trust any other human beings.
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And horses were my bridge to learn how to trust other human beings.
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If you can get a huge animal like that to do something willingly, the only way you can do that is because of some connection to the horse that is nonverbal but very clear and present.
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And anybody who's worked with horses that I've seen or talked to, they all talk about that.
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That's exactly right.
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Yeah, horses need to maintain their agency.
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You can't force them to do things because they can kill you.
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Yeah.
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Just one little kick, and there you go, they do it.
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Wow.
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Yeah, teeth, teeth the size of like saltines almost, you know.
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And they're big hooves, yeah.
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Just moving their head, they can give you a concussion or knock you out.
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So you have to trust them as well, and vice versa, and they know that.
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And I I know people who and you know this very well, people who they're in a certain mood, and the horse just connects immediately to it.
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Might walk up and just put its head next to the person when they're somber, quiet.
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And uh I've been to a few treatment centers, even disordered treatment centers that have equine therapy.
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And I remember a case of a girl from Canada who had been going from hospital to discharge to hospital to discharge something in the last two years.
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She had only spent like 56 days out of the hospital.
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And that when she went home, she just couldn't do anything.
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They finally approved her the Canadian government to go to this uh place called Avalon Hills where they had equine therapy.
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And I mean, they did it.
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Their Wrangler was trained by um the horse whisperer.
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And um he could pick out horses for the girls, because this is uh all female, pick out horses to match them, and it was amazing.
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I had patients who went there who hated horses when they went, came back and wanted to have a horse.
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And that girl from Canada would not speak, she wouldn't do anything.
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And so what he did was he just had her out there with him when he was brushing and combing.
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And then she started to do more of that.
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Then she wanted to get on the horse and start to be close to the horse, but she had to be able to be nutritionally sound enough to do that, and that is what crossed the line for her.
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She finally did it.
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First time I ever saw that, and I went, okay, I'm a believer.
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But yeah, horses are used in therapy like dogs are sometimes so interesting.
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There's something about animals too that's different than people, in that they meet you where you are in terms of they're really just responding to your actions in the moment.
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And that's very different than people who might look at you, have certain preconceived notions, or have known something in the past, or be judging you for X, Y, Z, or maybe even that's just what you're thinking they're thinking.
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But animals really just reflect and meet you where you are, and I'm sure that was really refreshing for a young you.
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Oh, absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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If I had an off day or was carrying a bunch of baggage from the house to the barn, they helped me process it and let it go.
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Yeah, it's beautiful.
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So then how did you take your uh training with horses from there?
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Did you do any riding or in competition or anything like that?
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I did.
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I did show jumping and I did some three-day eventing, and I ultimately stopped riding when I graduated from high school because horses are very time consuming, and I knew I wouldn't have time to do that in college.
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And in the meantime, in amongst all of those years that I was riding, I got into swimming as well.
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Right.
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And so tell us a little more about swimming.
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You became an athlete in swimming as well.
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Swimming was also freedom for me.
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It was a way to get out of the house and it was a way to move my body, and it was a way to teach myself that I could be good at something because I didn't get reinforcement at home for good grades or success in swimming or riding horses or anything, but I learned how to reward myself and positively reinforce myself.
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And I loved the fact that I had just like at the barn, I had a whole family of friends, and a lot of us were pretty odd and different.
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I mean, you you're you're probably not wired like everyone else if you're gonna stick your head in water for five hours a day and stare at a stripe at the bottom of the pool.
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And uh I had family.
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I had I had siblings, and we we got along most of the time, but sometimes we didn't.
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I'm an only child.
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It was novel to have somebody that was that close because I didn't have anybody in the house.
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Yeah, that's so interesting.
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The kind of contrast between like my assumption about swimming, like you're saying, is that it's a very meditative or like solitary experience of being on your own and even like sensorily kind of barriered from the outside.
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But that that was matched with a team feeling like you're part of this group of people your age who all are kind of like you and enjoy, yeah, enjoy staring at them.
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It's a very hard sport.
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It's a very, very hard sport.
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So we were all in the water, turning ourselves inside out, going through the same hell together.
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Yeah.
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And we could get out of the pool and high-five each other and say, we did it.
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We did it.
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Let's go to school now.
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And see you after school, we'll do it again.
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Uh and uh you became pretty good in swimming too, is that recall?
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You swam at UT at the University of Texas.
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Do you know?
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I think I actually timed for you one time at a race.
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Yeah, seriously.
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Uh, when the master swimmers were helping doing some of the timing.
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And uh I can remember you on the starting block on I think it was a relay.
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So, anyway, that's interesting.
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So you did swimming and you were coached also there.
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Was that something that helped you with having um coaches or was it mixed bag?
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This is a pretty mixed bag.
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We had even in high school, we had girls on the team that were shamed for their weight and told they had to lose weight.
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We had girls that I didn't even realize were so sick.
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And when we graduated from high school, they went to college and then they went to treatment.
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And I wasn't around any of the body shaming, and nobody talked about it back then, and nobody said, You're not gonna do this to me.
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It was a different if day and age.
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And there were a lot of girls that were not well in college, and people were more vocal about it then, and the stakes were higher, the pressure was very intense, and ultimately I just decided I can't be in this environment anymore.
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This is not healthy.
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Good for you.
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So, in spite of your getting so much out of the swimming, you decided that that was not worth the other part.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And in the meantime, one of the guys on the men's team took me on a bike ride.
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I had gotten a bike at Richardson Bike Mart and the Dallas area and brought it back to Austin.
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And Petey said, Hey, let's go for a bike ride.
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And I thought, all right.
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So I strapped on my helmet and my shoes and my bike that was like two sizes too big for me with gears that were way too hard to ride around Austin.
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And he proceeded to take me up Mount Benell.
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Oh my goodness.
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And I was I was just dying on the way up.
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And we stopped at the top, and I said, Petey, what where are we?
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What did you just do to me?
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And he said, Congratulations, you're at the highest point in Austin.
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And I fell in love with riding bikes after that.
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Wow.
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For for those not from Austin, Mount Benell is this local landmark.
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I've only walked up it, but it's quite a long series of stairs to get to the top.
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Uh, but it has this beautiful overlook over the lake and the hills, and it's really a magical place.
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Great place to watch the sunset as well.
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A lot of people go there to sightsee, and I can't imagine riding a bike up it.
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I don't even know how that's we didn't ride up the stairs.
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The roads just to get there are very steep.
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Oh, yeah.
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Well, a lot of people, I know Mary trained when you and she went to Switzerland.
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She trained by walk hiking up that um back and forth, up and down, up and down to try to get used to hiking in the Alps.
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Yeah.
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So you rode a bike, and I can tell you that's harder than walking up.
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Would you agree?
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I would agree.
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But your capacity for exercise and and demanding exercise was something you had already really started to really have as a background that allowed you to transition to not just somebody kind of strolling around the neighborhood.
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So you started training then?
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Training on the bike.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Then I started riding more and more, and then I got myself a bike that actually fit, and then I started racing because some guys I was training with said, you're really fast, you should start racing.
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So I started racing.
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And then one of my friends got me into mountain biking and took me on this trail and said, if you can ride in this part of the country, you can ride anywhere in the world.
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And I thought, I think I'm about to get hazed.
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I proceeded to push my bike for about 90% of the ride.
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And he said, Don't worry, you'll get the hang of this.
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You'll get better and better.
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And over time, I got better and better.
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I learned how to ride all the technical sections, the little stairs up, the drops down, all the rocks that are six, seven inches in diameter, and that's what you're riding on.
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I learned how to do that.
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And I did it with the help and encouragement of my cycling friends.
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And he was indeed right.
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If you can ride a bike in Austin, Texas, on the trails around here, you can ride anywhere in the world.
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And you've ridden around on a bunch of different trails.
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I have.
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I remember you did the Leadville 100.
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I did.
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Which you want to tell us, tell everybody about that?
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Yeah, the Leadville 100 is the most difficult single-day mountain bike race in the world.
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It is all above 10,000 feet, and there is about 13,000 feet of climbing in the 104 miles, not 100.
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Yeah.
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Oh, four miles.
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You feel those four miles.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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So there's an intense amount of training that and preparation that goes into just standing on the start line.
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Well, before we get too deep into mountain biking, I want to kind of focus us back in on, you know, you you brought it up first talking about some stuff your swimming teammates were going through in terms of body image and how that unfortunately kind of connected and spoiled part of the sport.
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Can you share a bit about your experience with body image, with eating, and how that started in your life?
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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It may not be exactly what you expect because I didn't have body image issues.
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I just had no appetite.
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And from my earliest memories, literally my earliest memory is my grandmother trying to feed me.
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And my family is Sicilian.
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They are very into food.
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They are very, very how do I say it's very upsetting to them when children won't eat.
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It's extremely upsetting.
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And I remember sitting in a chair and my grandmother trying to feed me, and I remember just turning my head over and over again.
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And my response to stress is I just don't eat.
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And it's not because I'm hungry and I'm telling myself I can't eat or I don't want to gain weight or I don't want my body to be a certain way.
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It's that I'm just not hungry.
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And to this day, I could probably go days without eating and be just fine.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.839
I won't ever get hungry.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:20:06.079
And when I do get hungry, I will eat and eat and eat because I try to honor that feeling and that feedback, but I just don't have it very often.
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.599
So I was in my early 30s and I was married.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:18.240
And the person that I married, it turns out, was a combination of my mother and my father.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.720
And the relationship became abusive.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:23.359
The worse it got, the less I ate.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:32.079
And I remember standing in the kitchen one day thinking, if I don't leave this house, I'm gonna die.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:38.240
And I packed a little bag and I took my dogs and I left.
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.519
And then I got locked out of the house for six months.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:46.559
And I think one of the first phone calls I made was to Dr.
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:47.359
Tyson.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:48.319
Wow.
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.319
Because I said, I'm I I need help.
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.240
I was emaciated.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.759
And I knew I was probably having other physical issues too.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.319
And I just could not make myself eat.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:12.319
I mean, I would eat and I would end up throwing up, not making myself throw up, but I was so nauseous all the time that I couldn't eat.
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:18.480
It's I mean, just hearing this, I my heart goes out to you.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:50.400
But there's there's something really interesting in this fact of your family, besides your grandmother, who you have a lot of really positive um feeling towards, but your family having this food as a symbol that you kind of rejected at such a young age, like subconscious of you know, your adult mind at such a young age, kind of pushing that away and rejecting it, and how those things just are coded to the point where yeah, it's the instinct.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:56.799
Like you say, stress, the instinct is there without you even consciously having the thought, I'm trying not to eat.
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.440
Just your body is telling you, oops, no.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.759
I'm thinking, isn't that what a horse would do?
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.559
Turn his head away and just say no.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:14.720
And I was thinking that's when you have nothing else, what else can you do to feel control in your life?
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:19.759
And you pick that, and to you it was worth it to not eat.
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:31.519
And and I mean you may have truly not wanted to eat, but I can't help but think there had to be emotional connection of that rejection to what it did for you to not eat.
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.599
I wouldn't say that that was a layer for me.
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:41.839
It wasn't I never thought I am not going to eat because I want to control something.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:43.279
It would be unconscious.
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.559
I I did not have an appetite.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:47.039
Yeah.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.640
I just didn't didn't have any desire to eat.
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:51.359
Yeah.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:51.920
Yeah.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.599
I am when you were an infant, were you hard to feed?
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:56.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:04.960
Uh my family is Catholic, and they used to call my dinners novena dinners.
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:10.960
So a novena is when you say the rosary nine times, and you can imagine that that takes a very long time.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:19.839
And they would say that it took as long as it takes to say a novena for me to eat dinner.
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:28.079
Now, I do remember when I was with my grandmother alone and the rest of my family wasn't around, I would eat.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:30.799
I would sit with her and eat.
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:31.359
Yeah.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:32.079
Right.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.519
That's a I mean, that's a clue, you know.
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:56.240
This it's not unusual when well, I have seen cases when people at a very early age, even neonites, because of things that happen, eating became something that was involved in a situation that was uncomfortable.
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:05.839
You can imagine neonates, how they get tube fed and they're in the lights and all this stuff all the time, and you got IVs or whatever else going on.
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:14.640
And so I've seen people take it all the way back, remembering that wow, I hate hospitals.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.240
Why do you hate hospitals?
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:17.119
I don't know.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.720
And I said, Well, tell me, have you ever been in a hospital?
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:21.680
No, never.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:22.559
Never?
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:23.839
Were you born in a hospital?
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:24.640
Well, yeah.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:26.000
Well, what happened when you were born?
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:28.160
Oh, well, I was a neonate for two months.
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:29.920
I was in the NICU.
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.480
And I said, what is it about hospital you don't like?
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:41.039
And it was the lights and the sound and the smell, all the things that a new newborn would have, that that stuff registers and it has an effect.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:59.599
And I think our more primitive mind will take and brain will take us, make connections and find a way for us to still maintain our sanity if we can by trying to shut those off, but trying not to remember them or whatever.
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:12.400
And then when you could be with your grandma, I wonder if that was one of those things well you felt safe, that it was okay to eat and safe to eat, and not involved in anything else except just being you.
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:15.599
And being loved for who I am unconditionally.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.200
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:32.000
That she had all that obvious feeling for you, and it was she probably said it in words and actions, but the main thing was just you, the mood and the sense that she gave off all the time.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.480
That's and that's wonderful to hear.
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:40.319
There's a whole side story about gr.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:47.759
Tyson helping me get to being able to say that and understand that it came from when I was really young.
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.319
So I don't know if you want to talk about that now or later.
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:52.160
This is a great time to talk about it.
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:56.160
I mean, last you said you realized something was really wrong.
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:59.279
You were emaciated, and your first thought was to call Dr.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:25:59.839
Tyson.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:01.279
So let's get into that.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:05.920
What's y'all's connection and why did that pop into your mind?
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.079
I want you to start and then I'll have the start.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:17.519
I remember when I was in college, my best friend Christine saw Dr.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:19.920
Tyson as her primary care physician.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.960
And she had something mysterious going on.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:33.599
And she had been to five, six, seven doctors, been told it was in her head, been told she needed to see a psychiatrist, and went to Dr.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:39.039
Tyson, and he was the first physician to actually listen to her.
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:45.440
And I think it's not an accident that listen and silent are anagrams of each other.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:47.119
And Dr.
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.000
Tyson did not interrupt her.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:52.000
He listened to her whole story.
00:26:52.160 --> 00:27:00.559
And then he has this incredible gift of being relentlessly curious without being judgmental.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.640
And he was able to get to the bottom of her situation.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:11.519
And then later on, I had a first injury, and that was a mountain bike racing injury.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:16.480
And that was an injury where I completely lost my identity, full-on existential crisis.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.640
And I was rehabbing from that in a physical therapy clinic.
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:22.000
And Dr.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:31.119
Tyson was really good friends with my physical therapist, Doug Kelsey, and he came into the clinic, and I finally got to meet him in person.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:39.519
And I'd heard about him for years through stories from Christine and stories from Doug Kelsey, and I finally got to meet him in person.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.160
What Dr.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.319
Tyson, what is your recollection of first meeting her?
00:27:48.559 --> 00:28:00.000
I I remember seeing her working, uh exercising, rehabbing her knee, and that she was absolutely determined.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:09.279
And Doug would talk about, the physical therapist would talk about how she had to work so hard to come back from that.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:14.640
And minute changes along the way is what it was going to take.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.559
Nothing big, and it's not going to be quick, it's going to be drawn out.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:26.400
And she was flat out determined as as if she was somebody who was going to swim the English Channel.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.839
I mean, that that kind of thing I saw.
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:43.039
I remember time you came in and with your first husband, and you the first time I ever heard the word bonk, and you said, I'm bonking early.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:44.799
I said, Why?
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.880
And you said, I don't know.
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:48.960
And wait, you gotta tell us what bonking.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.000
Yeah, to tell me what well, she had to tell me what bonking was.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:53.599
It's like hitting the wall.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.759
You go and then all of a sudden hit the wall.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:56.720
Am I right there?
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:57.200
Yes.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:57.839
Yeah.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.200
And by the way, I have thoughts on that, about what that is.
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:03.680
Maybe we'll get into later or whatever.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:10.799
But um, so I've listened to her story, and so she's telling me, well, tell me how much were you riding?
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:23.359
And she said, well, uh, you know, kind of casually mentioned, well, I think I did 50 miles on Thursday, and I think I did 100 on Saturday, and I'm like, 100 miles, okay.
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:28.480
Um, do you have any idea how many calories you burn when you do that?
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:35.839
And she said, quote, I know exactly how many calories it was, and you you came up with a number, do you remember?
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:45.680
Because you had been tested, you had gone through all that metabolic testing at at UT, and um she says it's like 968 calories an hour, something like that.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.920
I went, okay, now tell me what you ate on Saturday.
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:53.279
And she listed out some things.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:08.720
I went, Well, I think it's interesting because you you're taking in about 450 calories, and somewhere you're having to come up with almost a thousand just for the exercise.
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:13.920
Gee, why would you bonk on something like that?
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:16.480
And I got thinking, okay, what about the day before?
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:30.000
And it turned out you were consistently undereating and yet still performing such incredible um feats by the amount of cycling she was doing.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:35.599
And remember, people, when she was cycling, she wasn't kind of oh, lovely day.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:37.440
Let's stop and smell the flowers.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.079
And no, she was hauling buns.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.200
Am I right?
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:42.480
You're right.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:43.200
Yeah.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:55.599
And I and then um I remember you came back, and about two or three weeks later, and you said, It's amazing.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:57.039
I can't believe it.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.440
Just eating more made me feel better.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.519
And I remember her going, Wow, that that really helped.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.720
Yeah, what was your experience of that moment?
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:09.200
Do you remember that conversation with him?
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.319
I actually don't remember that.
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:18.480
What I remember is after that, things got really bad.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:24.480
That's when I reached the point of saying, if I don't get out of this relationship, I'm going to die.
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:31.200
So things got better for a while because I just had more awareness of fueling myself.
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:41.279
But things got really bad after that because I got very stressed out and left a relationship with a little tiny duffel bag and two dogs.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.400
It's something that Dr.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:54.240
Tyson brings up, is often like kind of right after that initial refueling that happens, then like once you're fueled, then the feelings come up.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.160
I don't know if that was something for you.
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:02.559
Like once you weren't just fighting and your body was fueled, and then all of a sudden the feelings come to the surface.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:03.599
They have the space.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:05.759
I have no idea what you're talking about.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.279
Maybe you could explain it to me.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.079
No, I'm kidding.
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:11.920
I'm being totally so yes.
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:16.079
I mean, what happened was things got really, really bad.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:21.359
I got really sick, and I went to see Dr.
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:22.400
Tyson.
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:24.480
He hooked me up to an EKG.
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:27.279
He said, You have heart involvement.
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:34.480
This is serious, and I don't think that you need to be hospitalized.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:36.000
You don't need inpatient treatment.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:40.480
You're going to get through this, but you and I need to work through this.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:51.200
And I remember him telling me we need to get to the root of this.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:57.839
And I also remember, oh, he, and then he also said, I don't want you riding your bike.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:04.640
And it was at that point that all of the feelings became overwhelming.
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:17.759
And it became very obvious to me that all of the exercise was being used to keep me from feeling all of the feelings and all the things that happened to me as a kid.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.319
And I started going to therapy.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.160
That was tremendously helpful.
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:22.720
And then Dr.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.799
Tyson connected me with do you remember Amanda Mellowspring?
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:27.839
Oh, absolutely.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:30.160
She was incredible.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:30.559
Yeah.
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:34.720
And at the time it was very hard for me to eat solid food.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:44.079
And we created a plan to get me some calories to start eating again a little bit, celebrated all the small steps.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:45.119
And also, Dr.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:53.839
Tyson, being relentlessly curious, started asking me a lot of questions about my childhood, my earliest memories.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.599
And that's how I came up with the memory of sitting with my grandma and just turning my head and not wanting to eat.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:04.799
And he asked me questions about do you remember what your mom's face looked like?
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.839
Like, do you remember being in your crib and crying?
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.119
What did your mom do?
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:15.599
And I think our conscious brain might say, Oh, I don't remember.
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.679
But I felt very safe with him.
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:19.920
So I let my brain go there.
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:24.239
And I remember saying to him, She didn't want me.
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:26.000
She felt really disgusted.
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:27.360
I was a burden.
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:44.320
And through uncovering all of those things that happened to me when I was little tiny Heidi, we were able to more or less pull out the weed from the root instead of just mowing over it.
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.480
Because when you mow over it, it comes back.
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:48.079
And I remember Dr.
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:50.880
Tyson giving me a feelings wheel.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:53.679
I still have that piece of paper, Dr.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.400
Tyson.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.280
I swear I still have it.
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:03.119
And I used to carry a little backpack and it was in there.
00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:12.559
And I ended up laminating it, and I still have it, and I still pull it out, and I teach my clients how to use it.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:15.519
It's the name it to tame it thing, right?
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:32.639
And once I started being able to name my feelings and process them with the help of therapy and be comfortable with them and learn how to feel, I became this entirely different person.
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:36.480
Like I was living life in color instead of black and white.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:45.920
And I remember when I left my ex, I went and lived with my friend Christine, the same friend I mentioned before.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:53.280
And I remember sitting on the couch and just staring off into space.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:59.920
And she came home one day and she said, My friend's child is being baptized today.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:01.840
You're coming to church with me.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.760
And I looked at her like, I'm not going to church.
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:13.840
And she said, No, you're going to get up, you're going to go take a shower, and you're going to put makeup on, and you're going to put a dress on, and we're going to church.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:15.039
You don't have a choice.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:15.920
We're going to church.
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:17.280
I said, All right.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:22.239
So I went up, did everything she told me to do.
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:30.960
And I walked out of the bathroom and she, we were the same size shoe, and she threw these sparkly flip-flops on the ground.
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:32.960
And I am not a sparkle person.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:34.000
I'm just not.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:40.559
I'm like the person that has dirt under their fingernails all the time because I'm always riding bikes and working with dogs and stuff.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:49.920
And I looked at the flip-flops and I looked at her and she said, you know, for the last 15 years, I have been so worried about you.
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.559
So, so worried about you.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.239
Because you you couldn't feel anything.
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.519
And when you can't feel anything, you're dead.
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:04.480
And now you can feel so welcome to life.
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:07.760
Wow.
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:16.320
There's something too about kind of connecting with baby you and then going to see a new baby.
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:27.119
There's something when we think about our own childhoods, sometimes it takes then seeing a kid that age and realizing, oh, I was that when that was happening.
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:33.519
Oh, that I was this tiny little precious perfect being when all that was happening.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:34.719
I wasn't a burden.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.119
I wasn't, I was a baby.
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:39.920
And babies are crazy and cool.
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.079
Everybody was Gulian and Goon.
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:42.960
Yeah.
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:44.639
And who should be celebrated?
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:49.760
We should have all these people come around to be so excited for their birth, right?
00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:59.199
Like sometimes it takes those reflective moments to have the full circle realization that that shouldn't have been what you were going through.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:00.480
You're absolutely right.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:06.079
The value of a solid friend who tell you the stuff you don't want to hear.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:06.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:10.239
I say when you're stuck in a bottle, you can't read the label.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:13.840
And we all need that's a good phrase.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:14.880
He's gonna remember that one.
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:17.280
I was like, he's gonna use that one.
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.039
We all need label readers in our lives.
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.199
We have to have them because we lose perspective.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:32.079
And I say, in order for someone to be a label reader, they have to love you and they have to know what they're talking about.
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.920
Anyone else that gives you their opinion, you can just say thank you.
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:37.360
Yeah.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:45.440
And the other rules are you have to listen, you can't interrupt your label reader, and you can't get defensive.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.159
Because I think it takes a lot of bravery for label readers to come to us and give us the straight dope.
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:52.480
Yeah.
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.159
Yeah, here's the full label.
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:56.079
You gotta read the small print too on it.
00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:56.800
Exactly.
00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:58.159
Yeah.
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:04.239
And I mean, a 15-year relationship at that point with Christine.
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.960
I mean, it seems like she's at family level at that point.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:10.159
You know, yeah.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:12.639
Like she's your sister at that point.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:20.480
If you guys have been together that long and take somebody in Virginia, Virginia, yeah.
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:21.360
Yeah, DC.
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:22.000
That's right.
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:22.960
Richmond?
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.239
DC area.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:24.960
DC area.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:26.079
Arlington, yeah.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:28.320
Yeah, near Washington, DC.
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.559
For our listeners out there from other countries and so on.
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:38.639
So I I um I I I remember you talking about that episode.
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:46.960
And I remember Christine came to you and just said, I mean, you you told me about it, but I've watched you be like this.
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.000
No, you're going to change today.
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:51.360
And you did.
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:57.599
These these pivotal moments, you know, you hear about the tipping point.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:59.440
Are you going this way or you're going that way?
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:00.639
She goes that way.
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.159
And this is one of those, yeah.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.159
Put on the sparkle flip-flop moment.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:04.480
Yeah.
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:07.119
Do you still have those?
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:08.239
They were hers.
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:08.880
They were hers.
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:09.440
Oh, okay.
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:09.679
Yeah.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:10.880
I'm not a sparkle person.
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:15.039
Yeah, no, you're still not, but boy, those would be something to put on the wall.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:30.639
There's something too about her having been your friend for so long and seeing that pattern of you kind of putting a damper on your emotions, but still having like full and complete faith that you would one day access them and express them.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:41.840
Like that shows a huge amount of love and understanding from her to you to have seen 15 years of a certain behavior and be like, no, she's capable of other stuff too.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.519
Yeah, I'm holding space for this person to evolve and change and grow.
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:46.639
Yeah.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:47.360
Yeah.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:49.519
Beautiful thing.
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.760
You know, you had a really good team too.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:54.960
I want to include that.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.679
You had a great dietitian.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.480
She's still a very good dietitian, by the way.
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:07.199
And um I just knew y'all would be a click, and you had your therapist.
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:11.599
And you took advantage of all that.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:15.039
Instead of resisting and all that, you took advantage of it.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:27.679
And you really I remember thinking about you that you had the discipline of an athlete who listened to a coach and let the coach instruct you.
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:35.440
If you trust the coach, okay, okay, it says no, you gotta do another 200 fly or something like that.
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:37.679
You gotta do 10 more reps.
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:38.719
And you're like, what?
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:40.000
Nope, you gotta do it.
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:40.559
Okay.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:42.320
You get back in, you do it.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:58.079
And so you also had on your team this friend through the ages, somebody who has always been there, loved you, respected you, and knew you so well that all those things came together for you.
00:41:58.239 --> 00:41:59.840
And you took advantage of it.
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:12.079
Yeah, and I remember thinking the first time I saw you as a patient, that you are not gonna give up on me if I don't give up on myself.
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:16.719
And I was not going to give up on myself.
00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:18.480
I could tell.
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:25.920
And also teamwork is very important.
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:45.519
And if I have people invested in me, and your job was a physician, Amanda's job was my dietitian, I had my therapist, and then I had my role on that team too, and I was not going to be the one that let the team down.
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:48.079
I did not want to do that.
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:49.599
That's right.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:55.440
But then we made allowances for you to have your difficulties through that.
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.679
It was never, it was never about perfection, it was about progress.
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.880
You know what I say perfectionism is the pursuit of failure.
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:06.400
So love it.
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:06.639
Yeah.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:07.280
Yeah.
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:09.440
And that's the one she may keep it.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:10.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:10.480
There you go.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:11.840
She has so many little signs.
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.199
She has so many of them.
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:20.800
I remember a time when you were in what you called activity jail.
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:22.239
You remember that term?
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:24.000
Yes, I do.
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:25.760
Many, many times you were in jail.
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.079
Yeah.
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:27.599
Couldn't do stuff.
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.960
And you came in one time and said, What can I do?
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:32.880
Do you re uh do you remember this?
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:34.559
And I said, I want you to draw.
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:35.199
Yes.
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:41.280
And you looked at me like uh what I said, draw.
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:43.440
Like, what what do you mean draw?
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.239
You know, make an image.
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:47.599
Well, with what?
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:48.639
What do you want me to draw?
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:50.480
I said, it doesn't matter.
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:54.960
I said, I don't care what you draw with.
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.239
You can be, it can be sidewalk chalk for all I care.
00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.760
It can be oil.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:02.639
Or it can be spray painting.
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:04.639
I have no idea what it is.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.360
And I really don't care because that's not the point.
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:08.800
And you went, what?
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:11.760
And I said, I want you to do at least a half hour a day.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:12.639
Every day.
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:14.079
Every day.
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:16.079
See, she remembers.
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:23.039
I also, through reading your behind the scenes, Christine also gave you a similar challenge.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:25.039
Do you remember that?
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:26.719
She told you to take photos, right?
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:27.760
Or try physical therapy.
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:28.880
That was actually Doug Kelsey.
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:29.760
That was Doug Kelsey.
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:31.199
That was my physical therapist.
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:33.760
And he said, uh Yeah.
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:35.360
I'm a scientist at heart.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:36.079
I'm a chemist.
00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:37.599
He knew that.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.639
And he is also very curious.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.119
And he really got to know me as a person.
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.559
And he said, You're a scientist.
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:48.480
I want you to go get a camera.
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:53.360
And this is before digital, or right on the edge of digital.
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:54.800
Don't get digital.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:58.639
And I want you to set the camera on manual.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:02.079
And I want you to learn about the physics of lenses and light.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:05.119
And I want you to start taking pictures.
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:06.000
Yeah.
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:08.719
So what were your experiences with that?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.239
And then drawing as well.
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:10.880
Okay.
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:13.840
Well, I want to say one more about what happened.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:20.719
And you dutifully said okay, and you had a look on your face of okay, I'll do it.
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:28.400
And it was like two or three weeks later you came back and you said, I gotta tell you what happened.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:29.440
Do you remember?
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:34.159
You were you said you were riding on your bike or something, and it hit you.
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:39.440
All of a sudden, and as I recall it, you said you almost fell off your bike when it hit you.
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:42.719
You were drawing about the things you couldn't talk about.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:43.920
Do you remember that?
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:44.480
Yes.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:48.719
And I remember that that was a sentinel event for me.
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:54.079
Then she got the message was not drawing, it's what you wound up drawing.
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:57.280
And that was really wonderful.
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:09.440
Have you heard the expression from like a musical where it's like when the characters can no longer express something through dialogue, they sing, and when they can no longer express it through singing, they dance.
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.039
And that's like the logic behind like when they're dancing versus singing versus talking.
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.840
Um I think there's there's something there.
00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:18.639
Yes, one of the things.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:23.679
Talk about your experience with it drawing and at first it was very mechanical.
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:27.519
It was very, he asked me to do this, I'm gonna sit down and do it.
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:32.639
And it was it was nothing, nothing, day after day, nothing, nothing.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:38.320
And I just thought, I'm just gonna stick with this because he obviously knows a whole lot more than I do.
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.000
So I'm just gonna keep doing it.
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:41.760
I'm gonna keep showing up.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:43.119
I didn't like it.
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:45.039
I was kind of resentful.
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:53.599
But you know, just like you stick your head down in the water and swim a bunch of laps and it hurts really bad, you just I just took the same approach.
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:59.840
And then after probably about a week, I started having feelings.
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:17.760
And I realized that the drawing and the creative expression gave me a safe place to express those feelings or to not even to really express them, but to feel them.
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:27.199
Sometimes I express them, but it was unsafe for me to feel feelings my whole life or to even have feelings.
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:30.719
And it was this safe place.
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:32.639
It was like being with my grandma.
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:34.000
It was safe.
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:47.199
And once I realized it was safe and that it was helping things move through me and out of me, then probably by the third week, I wasn't resentful about sitting down to draw.
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:48.960
I thought, I want to do this.
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:50.400
This is my solace.
00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:52.559
I need to do this.
00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:00.239
And ever since then, by the way, I've had to have some kind of creative outlet with my hands.
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:03.280
So I do all kinds of stuff with my hands now.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:09.599
And nobody wants to be around me if I haven't done stuff with my hands.
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:19.039
I'm a very even-tempered person, except when I don't sleep and I haven't been creative.
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:20.079
Yeah.
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:21.519
It's beautiful.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:38.639
That's one of the things that I think is so important is I tell people who come in sometimes the very first day that almost without exception, the people I have seen have had many of these wonderful traits.
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:45.599
One of which is they're endowed with creativity that they they may have never tried it.
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:47.760
I've had that happen several times.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:56.719
And I was thinking of her the same way, uh, of you that same way that I want you to do something and tell you to go paint or something.
00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:57.679
I said, just draw.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:59.119
Simple, all that.
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:00.239
I want you to draw.
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:02.239
And you said, well, I said, just draw.
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:15.440
And remember your reaction, but you were disciplined, and you decided you'd do it, and you were disciplined because you had learned from other coaches and so on that this is how you would learn, and you trusted me on that.
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:18.800
And that was it, would never happen if she had not trusted me.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:28.960
And um I tell people I train that that is the most important part of the relationship because they've got to have that.
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:36.159
You have a gift of seeing your patients, really truly seeing your patients.
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:51.920
And I recently worked with a physician, he's a a breast physician, and he retired, and he's just wonderful, wonderful.
00:49:52.159 --> 00:50:01.119
And I would do all my breast exams with him because I have dense breast tissue and I didn't want to run around in the regular system and just get ping-ponged around.
00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:02.000
So I would go see Dr.
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:02.719
Winsett.
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:06.239
And he reminds me a lot of you.
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:15.440
And in my last visit, he said to me, I've had a lot of people come study with me, medical students, residents.
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:24.480
And he said, not all of them have gone on into medicine, and some of it has to do with what they experienced in my office.
00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:26.400
And this is what would happen.
00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:32.320
They would come in the room with me and they would stand in the corner and take notes and observe.
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:35.440
And then we would go out into my office.
00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:42.559
They would think that I was going to ask them questions about the medical case, the details of the pathology or whatever.
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:46.239
And I would ask them, what color were her eyes?
00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:49.599
And a lot of them couldn't answer.
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:50.320
Oh, yeah.
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:57.760
And if they couldn't answer that question, he would say, I think you need to think about another career, and this is why.
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:01.599
And he was the label reader for a lot of physicians.
00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:05.599
You are someone who sees people's eye color.
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:07.440
Yeah.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:08.400
Yeah.
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:09.760
That's intense.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:11.280
I got chills from that.
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.000
That's great that you did that.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:14.880
Yeah.
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:23.440
Yeah, because I mean, uh, just to state the obvious, uh, it is not in the DSM to prescribe drawing.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:24.800
You know what I mean?
00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:29.199
Like that's not, yeah, that's not like the treatment.
00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:30.320
Oh, yes, of course.
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:31.199
Yeah, drawing.
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.239
Uh it doesn't matter what it is, as long as they're drawing.
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:41.519
Um, that's that's something from your experience that you've seen, and something that sparks for me because I'm an artistic person.
00:51:41.679 --> 00:51:44.960
You know, now I'm lucky enough to have a job in the arts as well.
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:55.039
And there's something that happens in art that also can happen beautifully in sports, which is the flow state, which I know is something that you're interested in.
00:51:55.360 --> 00:52:04.320
But there's something where you can access a part of your brain where you've turned off your editor and you can just let it out.
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:08.400
And oftentimes, when you look back over it, you'll be surprised.
00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:10.880
Like, oh, I guess that was inside of me.
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:12.239
I didn't know that was there.
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.880
Oh, I didn't realize I was trying to express that.
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:18.079
I went into it thinking this would be what it is.
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:23.280
Um, and it's a very rewarding experience and a very like all-encompassing experience.
00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:29.920
I'm wondering if you found that connection between the good times in sports and drawing as well.
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:31.440
Absolutely.
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:33.039
Because when Dr.
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:37.599
Tyson suggested that I start drawing, I was in activity jail.
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:43.840
So I was not allowed to expend calories on exercise because I could not afford to.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:45.440
I was really sick.
00:52:45.760 --> 00:53:03.440
And I went from, as I said, resentment to realizing that it had value to then realizing that it could replace some of the physical activity I had been doing and give me the same type of flow feeling.
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:10.400
Didn't you do jewelry next?
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:11.840
Or am I thinking of that?
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:13.280
Or what was it you did next?
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:18.719
I remember you came in and told me something artistic you were doing behind that.
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:24.719
A friend that helped me through my divorce, Alan Wong, love him so much.
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:30.000
He had a rosary that he carried in his pocket.
00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:38.000
And he was a, he's retired now, but he was a surgical tech for cardiothoracic and vascular surgeons in Austin.
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:41.760
Just a deeply wise human being and a great label reader.
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:47.039
And he always would always carry his rosary in his pocket, and he lost it one day.
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:55.519
And I always wanted to thank him for everything that he taught me and how he guided me through my divorce.
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:58.159
And I thought I'm gonna make him a rosary.
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:00.079
So I learned how to make rosaries.
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:01.199
Right.
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:05.920
Now that comes back to my and I'm thinking, okay, there you go.
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:09.840
She just takes off with doing something else creative.
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:13.519
But also the symbolic nature of that too.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:19.360
You talked about how a rosary was used by your family as the symbol of how difficult you were as a child.
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:25.440
And then to be able to turn it into a gift for a beloved friend is a beautiful moment.
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:27.760
You know, I didn't even make that connection.
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:28.480
That's beautiful.
00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:28.880
Yeah.
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:29.199
Yeah.
00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:30.639
That's really beautiful.
00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:31.760
And you got to make one.
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:35.280
I'm sure it took longer than uh than whatever the novena.
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:36.320
But it was worth it.
00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:37.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:38.880
How wonderful.
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:43.840
But and now you had um you had another injury, right?
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:45.360
You recovered from the first.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:45.840
Yes.
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:47.760
But the first one was pretty bad.
00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:48.480
Yes.
00:54:48.719 --> 00:55:00.320
Uh once I passed the activity jail phase where I was more medically stable, and it was a sinuous journey.
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:02.800
It was not a straight line.
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:07.280
And as I said, I knew that you would not give up on me if I didn't give up on myself.
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:09.920
And I knew that I didn't have to be perfect.
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:12.079
I needed to show up.
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.639
That's all I needed to do and try.
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:15.199
Right.
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:25.840
And I got out of activity jail and I viewed exercise in a much different light.
00:55:26.159 --> 00:55:30.400
It wasn't a drug anymore.
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:33.199
It wasn't something that I had to do.
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:37.360
It wasn't my identity anymore.
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:52.880
Because you opened the door to me exploring all these other parts of myself that I think my subconscious didn't want to explore because I knew if I went there that all of these feelings would come up and it would be too much to deal with.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:13.360
And once I did that, I was an entirely different person.
00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:16.000
As I said, I started living in color.
00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:16.320
Yeah.
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:38.079
And I rode my bike because I loved it, and not because I had to, not because I would get agitated or edgy if I didn't, but because I wanted to go out and see cows in a field or visit horses, or I was still fast, and I changed the type of racing I did.
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:53.360
I went from shorter mountain bike races to much longer races, like six and 12 and 24-hour races, where you're truly you're truly competing with yourself, and you you have to feed yourself.
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:56.559
You can't race like that and not feed yourself.
00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:00.480
And I enjoyed that challenge.
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:06.639
And you saw a lot of people around you though with eating disorders, I would imagine.
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:07.599
Am I right?
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:09.519
In cycling and elsewhere.
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:18.719
And what was that like to be with your perspective about it and seeing so many around you who were struggling?
00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:29.519
It was hard in the sense that I knew that things could be better for them, but it wasn't my place to say anything.
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:38.960
It was my place to hold space for where they were now, and then kind of like Christine did for me, also hold space that things could change for them.
00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:44.079
And I know that we don't make changes until things get bad enough.
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:47.920
And sometimes things just have to get bad enough.
00:57:48.159 --> 00:57:48.800
That's right.
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:59.119
And it was my job, if it was a close friend, to love somebody until it got bad enough and then love them through it getting better.
00:57:59.360 --> 00:57:59.760
Yeah.
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:01.199
That's good.
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:03.360
But it's really frustrating.
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:20.480
I think you and I have talked about when you see people marketing stuff or athletics or whatever, and they're these athletes, and you know that they become these influencers or whatever you want to call them.
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:30.639
And you know that some of the stuff they're at they're promoting is really misplaced, if is about as nice a word.
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:31.519
It is.
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:33.920
I just I just have to look the other way.
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:53.920
And on my recovery journey, I realized that we are athletes are like a house, and the house has pillars, and there's the mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, and social pillars.
00:58:54.559 --> 00:59:02.400
And all of those pillars need to be of approximate equal length in order to hold the roof of the house up.
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:13.360
And what happens with most athletes is the physical pillar is really, really tall, and it is holding the entire roof of the house up.
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:20.079
And it's not structural and it can crumble.
00:59:20.239 --> 00:59:20.400
Right.
00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:22.960
And when that crumbles, the whole house crumbles.
00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:42.639
And what I learned through you and my creative outlets and feeding myself and getting my brain back to a place where I could make good choices and think again, because there were whole swaths of time that I don't even remember because I was so underfueled and so sick.
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:51.920
I was able to make sure that all of those pillars stay more or less the same length.
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:59.920
Yeah, I have a connection in what you just said in something I read from you earlier.
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:05.920
You know, there's this concept in uh alcoholic recovery or addiction recovery of hitting rock bottom.
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:08.559
You're saying like sometimes it has to get bad enough.
01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:12.320
And you're talking about this physical pillar and how it can come down.
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:21.280
And you've dedicated so much of your life to helping injured athletes, and that is a rock bottom for a lot of athletes.
01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:30.480
And you wrote that you were surprised, but also not surprised that so many injured athletes later said that injury was the best thing that ever happened to me.
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:35.119
So I don't know if you had anything to add to that.
01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:44.400
I think that injury and eating disorders too, there are so many parallels between the two of them, and I think we can really interchange them.
01:00:46.159 --> 01:01:03.760
If we can capture the opportunity in the adversity, be it an eating disorder or an injury, we can begin to look at our house and say, what's out of whack here?
01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:06.000
What pillars are too tall?
01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:09.840
What do I need to tend to here to balance this all out?
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:24.000
And those of us that can capture the opportunity are the ones that are lucky enough to have a community around us and really good support, like you, Dr.
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:42.559
Tyson, and like Amanda, and like my therapists and my friends, because it takes a team in order for that to happen, because the person going through the adversity, the eating disorder, the injury is so incredibly vulnerable, they can't do it themselves.
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:52.960
And what I've found is that people that the injured athletes that come to me want to capture that opportunity.
01:01:53.119 --> 01:01:58.559
They want the support, they want the help, they want to feel better mentally and emotionally.
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:12.880
And the ones that don't are usually the ones that are more isolated and don't have the community, and they are they just plow through the injury and they go from one injury to the next.
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:15.679
That makes perfect sense.
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:28.400
I think of people I've seen who are locked into whatever sport and don't have the other things you need, especially other people supporting you.
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:33.920
Supporting you not because of your sport, but because of you.
01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:35.360
That's exactly right.
01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:36.639
Unconditional support.
01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:37.199
Correct.
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:47.840
I think of famous people who, let's say a famous singer, you've got a big concert coming up and all the pressure on somebody like that to perform.
01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:50.239
And what if they don't want to?
01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:54.000
You've got a hundred thousand people paying for diggers.
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:58.159
And when can the people around you say that's okay?
01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:00.079
You don't need to be doing that.
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:04.400
It's better to get yourself well than we'll see what happens then.
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:06.000
It's really hard on people.
01:03:06.639 --> 01:03:06.960
I don't know.
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:08.320
Do you know Phoebe Bridgers?
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:09.360
Yeah, yeah.
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:10.239
She's amazing.
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:10.800
Yeah.
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:14.800
And she's incredible, and she disappeared for a couple years.
01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:17.920
You know, she's you know she's here and there coming back.
01:03:18.079 --> 01:03:18.480
Yeah.
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:19.599
It's exciting.
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:20.960
I love what she's doing.
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:23.199
She's doing it on her own terms.
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:29.760
She's basically doing like secret surprise pop-up concerts at really small venues in small towns.
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:31.039
Like she did one in Roswell.
01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:31.599
Oh, really?
01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:32.880
Like unexpectedly.
01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:35.840
And just like flyers go out, and people are like, is this real?
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:43.679
Um, because she could be a stadium size, and she's doing like 300 seat, 400 seat venues kind of around the country.
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:44.559
Very cool.
01:03:44.719 --> 01:03:46.639
Very, very cool.
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:51.760
Like be in one of those little towns that when that happens, you can oh my gosh.
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:55.440
People were sitting in coffee shops and they would just get a flyer.
01:03:55.760 --> 01:03:59.039
And it was like you said, Liz, is this real?
01:03:59.199 --> 01:03:59.599
Yeah.
01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:01.280
Is this could this be happening?
01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:02.000
Is this a joke?
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:03.840
We'll at least go check it out.
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:06.719
Maybe it's somebody pretending to be here.
01:04:07.280 --> 01:04:09.119
Then what a wonderful way to do it.
01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:13.039
She left the limelight on her own terms and was gone for a couple of years.
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:14.000
Good for her.
01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:14.239
Yeah.
01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:15.280
Good for her, I think.
01:04:15.599 --> 01:04:35.360
I mean, I think about Alyssa Liu, who just uh the ice skater, yes, who just did amazing in the Olympics and you know, people's champs sort of won everybody's hearts, uh, but quit before that because just working with her father and the other coaches she had didn't love it anymore.
01:04:35.679 --> 01:04:40.719
And so she stopped and then decided to do it her way and and conquered the world, you know.
01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:46.000
Um, and you can see it in her skating, like how much fun she's having.
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:48.719
That it's like a joy to be out there.
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:54.239
Um, doing it, I think, for the intrinsic love of it rather than trying to win the gold.
01:04:54.320 --> 01:04:56.320
But that ends up being what wins it.
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:57.039
Whatever.
01:04:57.199 --> 01:04:57.360
Yeah.
01:04:57.519 --> 01:04:57.599
Yeah.
01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:03.280
I remember reading an interview with her and her saying, nobody's gonna tell me what I can and can't eat.
01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:08.559
Yeah, nobody's going to make me skate for nine hours a day or whatever.
01:05:08.800 --> 01:05:09.599
I'm doing this.
01:05:09.679 --> 01:05:12.000
If I'm doing it, I'm doing it on my own terms.
01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:17.760
And then she comes back with all joy and no expectations.
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:22.480
And it it reminds me of how I work with my dog.
01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:27.840
I go out with her and she's such a happy little dog.
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:37.039
Her, she's all jaunty and her tail wags, and she looks at me and she has a sparkle in her eye, and and I do all kinds of stuff with her.
01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:38.880
I don't ever have expectations.
01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:44.719
My only expectation is who are you right now and what I can what can I do to support you?
01:05:44.880 --> 01:05:45.039
Yeah.
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:47.039
Who's the dog in front of me?
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:48.000
Totally.
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:54.719
And for our listeners, tell them a little more about what all you and your dog do.
01:05:55.840 --> 01:05:57.519
Chesa and I do a lot.
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:04.000
Uh, she's a certain Certified search and rescue dog, human remains detection, or a cadaver dog.
01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:07.280
And I'm a certified search and rescue volunteer.
01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:12.000
And I didn't ever want our relationship to be about one thing.
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:15.039
And I don't want to load her body in just one way.
01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:17.599
I want to do a lot of different things with her.
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:28.480
I think just like kids that have a lot of different experiences in life and go to different places, they're a lot more well-rounded and adaptable.
01:06:28.719 --> 01:06:32.800
And I noticed when she was a puppy, she loves to climb and balance on things.
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:34.880
So I started doing tricks with her.
01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:39.920
And we're one of the winners of the national trick dog competition this year.
01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:51.039
And our performance was uh set to a poem that I wrote about our search and rescue deployment after the catastrophic floods on the Guadalupe River in July 4th.
01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:51.920
January 4th.
01:06:52.320 --> 01:06:54.000
July 4th, 2025.
01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:55.119
Yes.
01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:59.760
And I love to do agility with her.
01:07:00.239 --> 01:07:01.360
No pressure.
01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:03.760
Just go out and do our thing.
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:06.960
And I do different kinds of obedience with her.
01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:10.079
We hike, we swim, we do all kinds of stuff.
01:07:10.480 --> 01:07:17.599
And you know, I see the smile on your face when you say that you guys have won, but it seems like you'd be smiling even if you didn't even place.
01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:20.239
I haven't just having no expectations.
01:07:20.559 --> 01:07:20.800
None.
01:07:21.199 --> 01:07:22.320
If it happens, it's great.
01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:22.719
Yeah.
01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:24.880
But it's really on the way, what it's like.
01:07:25.039 --> 01:07:25.199
Yeah.
01:07:26.159 --> 01:07:26.880
What prize?
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:45.280
I try to live my life in ways that my grandmother taught me and instilled in me, which is listen, be curious, love unconditionally, don't have expectations.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:52.000
And so I pour into her what my grandma poured into me, and that's what I pour into other people too.
01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:53.440
That's beautiful.
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:54.480
It really is.
01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:56.079
Yeah, I love dogs.
01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.480
Well, I was um last night.
01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:06.079
I I played beach volleyball, and afterwards there's somebody walking around with like a baby bjorn, but it was a little corgi.
01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:10.880
And I was like, you know, I think I feel about that corgi the way people feel about babies.
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:11.840
Sure, sure.
01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:24.239
Where I'm just like, you know, I'm like, you know, human humanity has done so much wrong, but something has gone right that we invented a baby bjorn and somebody put a corgi in it.
01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:32.880
And you just see the dog just having a blast and like, I don't know if it's old and can't walk or what's going on, but you know, it's just this beautiful thing.
01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:38.000
You know, Liz worked at the Texas Service and Earring dogs in summer.
01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:40.880
I thought it was one of my um Was it one or two?
01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:47.199
No, no, I did it for yeah, I did it for a few years because it was in high school and then I did it for maybe a summer in college.
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:48.880
But yeah, that was really fun.
01:08:49.119 --> 01:09:05.359
You I I was thinking about the food stuff because Texas Hearing and Service dogs, they only take in shelter dogs, they don't do like peer breeds or anything, uh, which meant a lot of the dogs wouldn't graduate to the level, but they would care for them and try to adopt them out.
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:13.600
Uh and the strange neuroses that dogs who've been through trauma form was a huge part of my job.
01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:14.000
Yeah.
01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:26.159
And figuring out what each dog was going through and food often is one where trying to figure out how to get a dog to eat um can is really hard.
01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:27.600
And I bet it is.
01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:28.000
Yeah.
01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.279
You know, it's not on like it's not unlike people.
01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:31.840
Exactly.
01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:33.600
They've been through trauma, right?
01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:34.399
Yeah.
01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:35.920
I think that's right.
01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:36.479
Yeah.
01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:50.000
Uh looping back to what we were talking about before and capturing the opportunity and adversity, my injured athletes will often ask me, Well, how do I know I'm better?
01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:51.920
Better mentally.
01:09:53.279 --> 01:10:00.880
And I thought about it for a long time and sat back, observed them, remember something that Dr.
01:10:01.039 --> 01:10:02.560
Tyson told me.
01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:11.279
And he said, when you can tell your story to other people, that's a huge milestone.
01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:11.680
Yeah.
01:10:11.920 --> 01:10:17.840
When you can eloquently tell your story and all the ins and outs of it.
01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:26.239
And then I added to that when you can help somebody else going through something similar.
01:10:27.760 --> 01:10:28.399
Yes.
01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:37.039
And then when you can look back on that experience and think, boy, howdy, that was hard.
01:10:37.680 --> 01:10:39.920
That was really hard.
01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:44.079
But it shaped me into who I am today.
01:10:44.960 --> 01:10:46.960
And I love who I am today.
01:10:47.119 --> 01:10:57.279
And I also hold space for the fact that I'm going to evolve into somebody new and somebody else in the future because that's what happens to us.
01:10:57.439 --> 01:10:59.760
We're always evolving, we're always changing.
01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:07.680
And I think one of the pitfalls that athletes fall into is the attachment to not changing.
01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:08.399
Yeah.
01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:10.640
I don't want my body to change.
01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:13.760
And we talked a bit about women going through menopause, right?
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:15.199
I don't want my body to change.
01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:19.760
I want, I still want to have a six-pack after I go through menopause.
01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:25.199
I and I'm going to do everything in my power to make that happen.
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:27.119
Yeah.
01:11:27.760 --> 01:11:28.960
GLP1 issue.
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:33.600
It brings me back to the GLP1 podcast you guys just had.
01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:35.920
Uh I don't want to get slower.
01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:42.560
I'm going to keep training harder and harder because I don't want to get slower.
01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:45.199
I don't want to stop racing.
01:11:45.439 --> 01:12:00.960
And I think that commitment to not changing is one of the slippery slopes that athletes can get on that can lead to eating disorders.
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:15.520
Oh, I absolutely have the in GLP ones are really being on a GLP one means you're being medically starved.
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:22.880
And that when we think about it that way, it's wait a minute, why would we starve somebody?
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:24.960
And you have to really think about that.
01:12:25.279 --> 01:12:30.479
It's so easy to do, and people think well, if I want to be a better athlete, I'd way less.
01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:31.439
That would be better.
01:12:31.680 --> 01:12:34.319
Not considering all the other things that are happening.
01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:42.159
Or is it in your best interest to do it this way or to do it at all.
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:50.880
And they can get so caught up in the idea being athletes of, you know, how hard do I have to train?
01:12:51.199 --> 01:13:10.319
There's so many crossovers between somebody with an eating disorder and somebody who's got um somebody who's an athlete that you want to train harder, harder, harder, and you want to lose more and more weight, or you'll do more more whatever it takes to lose, or in this case, to work even harder.
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:23.439
And when they blend together, when somebody's got the malnutrition going on, they can mistake their fatigue or whatever for not working hard enough, or their time's not being as good.
01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:25.359
And well, I'm not working hard enough.
01:13:25.439 --> 01:13:28.800
I need to lose more weight, I need to eat less food, not more food.
01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:34.079
And they get it all distorted and it can be extremely destructive.
01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:44.880
And there's this unfortunate thing, if you're at a certain level in athletics, often the team you're playing for, the brand you're playing for will have its own team doctors.
01:13:45.199 --> 01:13:56.399
And in my opinion, there's always a conflict of interest there when, like you're saying, is that doctor hired by the team to get your time better, or is that doctor hired to treat you as a person?
01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:58.319
And those, yeah.
01:13:58.560 --> 01:14:00.399
I mean, it it gets me all the time.
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:07.119
We watch football sometimes, and I'm just like, why is a team doctor the one who clears you after concussion protocol?
01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:09.279
It's like we need a third party or something.
01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:15.199
We need somebody who's not being paid by the NFL in any way to be the one who's clearing players.
01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:18.960
There's just a huge conflict of interest.
01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:32.000
And I think anybody who is a good doctor, a good coach like you, you're thinking, I am treating you as an athlete secondarily to treating you as a person.
01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:47.920
And if this sport is something you actually care about, I'm trying to give you long-term joy in participating in this sport rather than short-term results that could lead to catastrophe, further injury, illness, whatever.
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:59.600
Yeah, collegiate sports are that's the same trouble with the physicians, is the most important question a student athlete should ask if they get hurt or whatever.
01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:04.800
Are you my doctor or is the team my doctor?
01:15:05.039 --> 01:15:06.800
Who is comes first?
01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:09.520
Yeah.
01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:16.479
And I think to give them a little grace, some of those doctors just don't even have, don't even think about that.
01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:20.239
Like, I'm a sports doctor, therefore, I'm my job is to get you better at a sport.
01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:24.880
But that's not necessarily always the best outcome for people.
01:15:25.039 --> 01:15:42.079
Like Alyssa, who I'm sure had plenty of doctors being like, oh yeah, this this will get you faster times if you stick to this food, whatever, restrictive diet that we have you on, and you train this number of hours, your times or your scores will get higher.
01:15:42.399 --> 01:15:44.319
But it leads to a breaking point.
01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:48.239
And then to bring up what you're saying, this this fact of change.
01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:54.640
Um unfortunately, with like super competitive sports, there's this youth.
01:15:55.600 --> 01:15:56.960
Once it's gone, it's gone.
01:15:57.119 --> 01:15:58.640
You'll never be there again.
01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:03.760
And like in some ways, that's true, because we all change, and that's just an inevitability of life.
01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:17.439
Um but that can be really hard to deal with when your whole life until that point has been about the four years where you're whatever, at the right age to compete at the right level.
01:16:17.840 --> 01:16:23.760
And then you get past that four years, and you can have, like you were saying, an existential crisis of what now?
01:16:24.159 --> 01:16:25.279
What what am I doing?
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:26.399
Who who am I?
01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:27.600
Who am I?
01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:32.479
Um, and the the gut thing of well, I can stay there.
01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:37.199
I can stay there if I just hold on really tight and do some wild stuff.
01:16:37.520 --> 01:16:42.399
But you need to have sometimes you need that existential crisis to move forward in life.
01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:47.199
And to to change and evolve, yeah, and to to fix your house.
01:16:47.359 --> 01:16:47.680
Yeah.
01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:52.479
And it'll be harder than the athletic activity you've exposed yourself to.
01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:53.760
Oh, it's way worse.
01:16:53.920 --> 01:16:54.319
Yes.
01:16:54.720 --> 01:17:05.439
It's the pain that I went through, the emotional pain that I went through recovering from my eating disorder was I call it my beautiful nightmare.
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:08.079
Because he has all these things.
01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:08.560
Yeah.
01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:13.439
It was a nightmare to unearth all those feelings.
01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:14.239
Yeah.
01:17:14.479 --> 01:17:19.520
And then it was also beautiful because it was this tremendous unburdening.
01:17:20.479 --> 01:17:26.159
Tremendous such a paradox that you would think that's not the way to do it.
01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:29.520
To get better is you go through these negative things.
01:17:29.680 --> 01:17:32.640
But you know, like an athlete, well, how else are you going to get better?
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:45.439
You got to go through this times where one of the things I uh tell people is I remember a saying at Dad's Club Swim Pool, which is uh in Houston, and has produced a lot of great swimmers.
01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:56.239
And I was a swimmer growing up, and above the coach's deal um office was a sign that said you've got to know the difference between hurting and being hurt.
01:17:56.880 --> 01:17:58.159
That's one of my favorite sayings.
01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:00.720
And I l have always liked that.
01:18:00.880 --> 01:18:07.680
And what you're doing, is it hurting you or you uh or is it just hurting, or is it doing something to you?
01:18:09.039 --> 01:18:18.159
Another thing I I say to people along the way, when I was asked once to write, what do you consider a cure from an eating disorder?
01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:26.560
I said finally, the last thing I said was when you can say that the worst thing I've ever been through is the best thing I've ever been through.
01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:31.840
Because then it says you've faced all that.
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:37.119
And that was now you realize I had to do all that to be where I am.
01:18:37.359 --> 01:18:43.520
And many of them are thankful they have had an eating disorder because they think, what if I hadn't had that?
01:18:43.680 --> 01:18:46.000
What would I have done instead?
01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:47.600
Now think about you.
01:18:47.680 --> 01:18:53.119
If you hadn't found horses and then had a grandmother or whatever, what would have happened?
01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:56.239
And you even said it, you know, would you even be alive?
01:18:56.640 --> 01:18:57.840
I don't think I would be.
01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:03.760
And and I also had my eating disorder, or it came to a head.
01:19:03.920 --> 01:19:09.119
I mean, it had been going on my whole life, but it came to a head in my early 30s.
01:19:09.199 --> 01:19:24.800
And I remember talking to my parents about it, and I was sitting at the kitchen table in their house, and I said, I I said, I have an eating disorder.
01:19:24.880 --> 01:19:25.760
I'm seeing Dr.
01:19:25.920 --> 01:19:30.720
Tyson in Austin and told them a little bit about it.
01:19:31.119 --> 01:19:36.319
And my mom said to me, Well, you've never really liked to eat.
01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:38.800
That's just normal for you.
01:19:40.479 --> 01:19:46.560
And my dad said, Well, at least I didn't get blamed for something in this house.
01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:53.600
And that was the extent of their response to, I have an eating disorder and I'm really sick.
01:19:53.920 --> 01:19:55.039
I remember you telling me that.
01:19:55.680 --> 01:19:59.920
And I expected nothing from them.
01:20:00.159 --> 01:20:02.079
I just wanted to tell them.
01:20:02.399 --> 01:20:07.119
But at this point in my life, I realized the well is dry.
01:20:07.359 --> 01:20:14.159
I cannot keep going back to the well and expecting my parents to be parents, but also I'm just going to tell them what's going on.
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:28.319
And that was a pivotal moment for you to realize you confirmed it, maybe for the ultimate final point that okay, I can't get the well, is dry.
01:20:28.560 --> 01:20:28.720
Yeah.
01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:31.520
And I'm not going to get anything from it anymore.
01:20:32.560 --> 01:20:33.439
You're exactly right.
01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:47.199
And I absolutely believe that if I had gotten sick, and by sick, I mean cardiac involvement, massive weight loss, needing medical support.
01:20:47.359 --> 01:20:51.520
If that had happened to me in my teenage years, I would also be dead.
01:20:51.760 --> 01:20:51.920
Yeah.
01:20:52.159 --> 01:20:57.199
Because my parents would have been the ones that said, just eat.
01:20:57.359 --> 01:20:58.319
This is ridiculous.
01:20:58.479 --> 01:20:59.840
Just eat the food.
01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:03.680
Or you've always been a light eater.
01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:08.880
And I think I just would have just gone away.
01:21:09.279 --> 01:21:16.319
And there's something about, I mean, I know I feel this, even though I have a different situation with my parents, obviously.
01:21:16.479 --> 01:21:25.600
But sometimes when a parent tells you you're this way, it can give you that little extra boost to be like, yeah, your your story is not my story anymore.
01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:26.640
You know, absolutely.
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:28.880
That can be sometimes a candidate.
01:21:29.279 --> 01:21:31.359
Your story is not my story anymore.
01:21:31.439 --> 01:21:33.119
That is I like that a lot.
01:21:33.279 --> 01:21:33.600
Yeah.
01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:36.079
I see it so often.
01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:54.000
Um and when parents for their own dysfunction rather than face that, they pass it on to their kids in some degree or another that can really harm them.
01:21:54.239 --> 01:21:59.680
And they have no clue unless they get to do something like you.
01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:05.039
That they find somewhere along the line somebody.
01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:06.960
Really.
01:22:07.600 --> 01:22:12.079
Sometimes it may be something like a horse or a dog or a friend.
01:22:12.640 --> 01:22:23.600
A friend, yeah, that comes along and um that sometimes is all you need, just that much.
01:22:24.319 --> 01:22:31.680
Somebody to trust you and you hang on to, and you that becomes the thing you go more and more towards.
01:22:32.560 --> 01:22:41.279
I also want to say though, like in this moment in your telling of the story, like the initial spark really did seem to come from within you, right?
01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:51.119
The initial spark of leaving your ex at the time, who you now are like, I see him now as this in some ways combination of my mother and my father.
01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:52.319
That's what you said earlier.
01:22:52.560 --> 01:23:04.319
And so the the decision to leave that I think is all combined with this decision to make a change that trickles down to the parents and just how you have been.
01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:09.760
So I want to say the initial spark, like you were saying, with people you care about who are going through something.
01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:13.520
That initial spark has to come from within, and then you're there to support, right?
01:23:13.680 --> 01:23:17.439
And then you're there to through the difficult part of the healing.
01:23:17.760 --> 01:23:18.239
I agree.
01:23:18.319 --> 01:23:18.479
Yeah.
01:23:18.720 --> 01:23:21.920
And I think the spark is also it's really bad.
01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:23.840
I have to do something different, right?
01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:26.960
It got bad enough, it got uncomfortable enough.
01:23:27.199 --> 01:23:27.840
Yeah.
01:23:28.239 --> 01:23:30.239
That's someone's gotta get it.
01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:30.720
That's right.
01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:37.119
And you look back on your life and you go, if it hadn't been for this, I'd have gone that way.
01:23:37.199 --> 01:23:39.680
And it hadn't been for this, I'd have gone that way.
01:23:39.760 --> 01:23:59.439
And this, and you look at it and go, thank goodness, thank the Lord that I'm they were put in front of me or whatever, I had that happen, and to have those blessings in life where somebody does come along and um is there, and you can do that.
01:23:59.520 --> 01:24:02.560
And you're I remember when you first came to me and talked.
01:24:02.640 --> 01:24:07.760
Do you remember we you called me up and said, I have this great idea, and this idea I want to do.
01:24:08.079 --> 01:24:14.239
And we met at a restaurant at um Panera's, right?
01:24:14.560 --> 01:24:16.079
And you have such a good memory.
01:24:16.319 --> 01:24:17.359
I know, it's crazy.
01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:18.960
I do not have this memory.
01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:25.439
And and you were telling me about the you were thinking about doing something for injured athletes.
01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:29.119
And she's now she didn't come in, but I got an idea.
01:24:29.359 --> 01:24:35.760
You know, she came in, you know, just told me all about how it worked and how she's gonna do a website, and I'm kind of scratching my head about website.
01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:36.720
Well, how would this work?
01:24:36.960 --> 01:24:41.119
This was kind of new and early, and bingo, she did it.
01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:44.159
Yeah, and now how many years has it been you've had that?
01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:51.279
I started in 2013, and you asked about my injury, and I diverted us back to eating disorders.
01:24:52.319 --> 01:25:01.920
I recovered from my eating disorder, and although I will say that I will always not have an appetite.
01:25:02.159 --> 01:25:04.479
Now I just know better.
01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:09.039
I think for whatever reason, I'm just wired that way.
01:25:09.439 --> 01:25:16.079
I do have to be conscious of eating, eating enough.
01:25:16.319 --> 01:25:22.319
And now that I'm older, there are actual consequences of me not eating enough.
01:25:22.720 --> 01:25:26.000
Whereas before, I could go a long time.
01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:28.800
Uh, and I'm actually grateful for that.
01:25:29.119 --> 01:25:31.840
I'm grateful that I have guardrails now.
01:25:32.319 --> 01:25:54.479
And I got back on my bike, I started racing again, and I had a Nordic ski racing crash in 2010 that led to a knee fracture, a pretty catastrophic knee fracture that led to a couple of surgeries that were botched in Austin.
01:25:55.279 --> 01:26:03.760
And then that led me to the Stedman clinic where Richard Stedman was my physician, and I had six surgeries there.
01:26:03.920 --> 01:26:05.359
So I had a total of eight surgeries.
01:26:05.439 --> 01:26:11.279
And by the time I went to the Stedman clinic, I had developed a complication called arthrofibrosis.
01:26:11.359 --> 01:26:14.319
So arthro meaning joint fibrosis, meaning scarring.
01:26:14.479 --> 01:26:20.000
So where people have space in their knee, I have a scar and that limits range of motion.
01:26:20.239 --> 01:26:26.800
And the surgeries were to address the scar that kept growing back because that's what scars do.
01:26:27.359 --> 01:26:38.319
And I will have to do exercises every day for the rest of my life, and I just call that the price of entry now.
01:26:38.479 --> 01:26:48.399
And I am grateful that I can do something to affect change and that I can do exercises to help me be functional.
01:26:48.640 --> 01:26:50.960
But I'm very functional now.
01:26:51.359 --> 01:26:56.319
Uh I hiked 14 miles last summer in the Adirondack Mountains.
01:26:56.479 --> 01:26:57.520
So a miracle.
01:26:57.600 --> 01:27:01.119
It's a miracle I can walk because for four years I was on crutches.
01:27:01.199 --> 01:27:02.800
I didn't know if I'd walk again.
01:27:03.119 --> 01:27:03.920
I remember.
01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:09.920
And when I had my accident, I worked in the medical device industry.
01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:16.000
So I was standing in operative cases for hours and hours and hours, and I was carrying equipment.
01:27:16.319 --> 01:27:22.079
And I tried to push through the pain the first year after the fracture healed.
01:27:22.319 --> 01:27:25.680
And I didn't understand that I had arthrofibrosis at the time.
01:27:25.760 --> 01:27:29.039
But by the time I got to the Stedman clinic, I had to quit my job.
01:27:29.199 --> 01:27:32.239
And I didn't, not just quitting my job, but my entire life.
01:27:32.399 --> 01:27:33.840
I couldn't go out with friends.
01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:35.760
I couldn't do anything with the dog.
01:27:35.920 --> 01:27:45.600
I couldn't, I was home in a constant passive motion machine with my leg going straight and bending and straight and bending all day, every day.
01:27:45.920 --> 01:27:49.119
And that's when I fell back on my creativity.
01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:50.479
That was super helpful.
01:27:50.640 --> 01:27:52.720
And I'm not much of a TV watcher.
01:27:53.199 --> 01:27:59.760
And I knew that my recovery was going to be years long, and I wouldn't be able to go back.
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:03.920
To the kind of work that I used to do in medical devices.
01:28:05.039 --> 01:28:13.359
And I was on the bike at the Sedman clinic, and there was an active defensive football player on my left.
01:28:13.439 --> 01:28:18.000
And then there was a guy on my right who's about 65, and he was a skier.
01:28:18.079 --> 01:28:20.079
And I asked him, when did you learn how to ski?
01:28:20.239 --> 01:28:21.760
And he said, I don't remember.
01:28:22.239 --> 01:28:28.399
And we're all on the bike, facing the mountain, riding at PT.
01:28:28.640 --> 01:28:29.439
We're all just talking.
01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:34.960
And I realized, oh my gosh, we we are using the same words to describe our experience.
01:28:35.119 --> 01:28:39.439
And the Stedman Clinic is a very positive, uplifting place.
01:28:39.760 --> 01:28:51.680
So people were talking about their love of their sport and how their injury affected their identity and using words like frustration and impatience.
01:28:51.840 --> 01:28:55.760
And I thought, well, we are three completely different people.
01:28:55.920 --> 01:29:00.319
We play different sports, we're different ages, but we are living the same experience.
01:29:00.720 --> 01:29:11.520
And I went home after that visit and I said, I want to do something with this because I had been helping athletes informally for about 10 years at that point.
01:29:12.159 --> 01:29:20.800
And I conducted research with approximately 200 injured athletes or recently injured athletes.
01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:24.159
And the youngest was 14 and the oldest was 75.
01:29:24.239 --> 01:29:42.159
And I intentionally included people that did not self-identify as athletes, people that were avid gardeners, people that walked their dogs with friends every day, people that did Zumba.
01:29:43.279 --> 01:29:51.600
I think those people are athletes because an athlete to me is anybody who uses movement to identify with themselves or connect with their life.
01:29:51.840 --> 01:30:00.000
I wanted to include them in my research because I thought that they would suffer in the same way as the three of us on the bike at the Sedman Clinic.
01:30:00.159 --> 01:30:11.119
And my goal was to gather stories and ask questions and be curious and interview everybody and then figure out what words were coming up over and over again.
01:30:11.840 --> 01:30:18.720
And the words that came up were frustration, impatience, anger, and sadness.
01:30:19.119 --> 01:30:23.920
And women tended to identify more with sadness and men with anger.
01:30:24.079 --> 01:30:28.640
But when I was injured the first time, I had a lot of anger and then disconnection.
01:30:28.800 --> 01:30:41.920
And that's disconnection from one's self, and then also disconnection from one's social circle, the people that participate in sport with the person that's injured.
01:30:42.079 --> 01:30:50.399
So you can't go to soccer practice, you can't go to track practice, you can't meet your friends for a run, the social disconnection and isolation.
01:30:50.880 --> 01:30:58.239
And I also had another arm of my research where I talked to clinicians, and part of that was me talking to Dr.
01:30:58.399 --> 01:30:59.119
Tyson.
01:30:59.279 --> 01:31:05.439
And I wanted to understand what challenges clinicians had working with injured athletes.
01:31:05.600 --> 01:31:17.840
And I took all of my research, plus all the work I had done informally with injured athletes before that time, put that all together and started injured athletes toolbox.
01:31:18.079 --> 01:31:26.880
And in a sentence, I help athletes overcome the mental and emotional fallout of injury, but also I help them put together a proper care team.
01:31:27.439 --> 01:31:32.720
I want all my athletes to have a care team of people like Dr.
01:31:32.880 --> 01:31:43.600
Tyson in their own field, an orthopedic surgeon, a PT, and I know people all over the world who are very, very good clinicians.
01:31:44.239 --> 01:31:50.640
And I want everybody to have the feeling of if I don't give up on myself, this person is not going to give up on me.
01:31:50.720 --> 01:31:55.039
Because my athletes don't come to me because they have a simple injury.
01:31:55.119 --> 01:31:57.520
Most of them have really complex situations.
01:31:57.680 --> 01:32:00.640
A lot of them have what I have arthois.
01:32:01.039 --> 01:32:05.199
And I want them to not suffer.
01:32:06.640 --> 01:32:16.159
There's something fantastic about, you know, we were mentioning earlier about how, you know, part of how you know you're better is that you're help, you're able to help someone else.
01:32:16.319 --> 01:32:26.640
And I love how you're like, so I was helping other people, and then I was like, how can I create a giant system to spread it as far as I can be as effective as I can?
01:32:26.800 --> 01:32:27.840
Um, I love that.
01:32:27.920 --> 01:32:35.840
That's I think your scientist's brain, like you were saying, like all right, let me identify the variables and craft the perfect solution.
01:32:35.920 --> 01:32:36.399
I love that.
01:32:36.640 --> 01:32:54.800
And also I will say that my eating disorder is a total superpower because my athletes will often not have the words to describe what they're experiencing because they're also just starting to feel feelings.
01:32:55.039 --> 01:33:00.079
And I also a side note, most of my athletes also work with a psychotherapist.
01:33:00.319 --> 01:33:03.920
And the work that I do complements the work of psychotherapy really well.
01:33:04.079 --> 01:33:10.800
But they're in the early phases of starting to feel feelings, and they'll start to explain something, and it will get all jammed up in their head.
01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:19.279
And I'll let them reach a stopping point and say, May I try to interpret what you're saying?
01:33:19.600 --> 01:33:24.479
And almost always they'll say to me, that's exactly what's going on with me.
01:33:24.800 --> 01:33:35.600
And that ability or that superpower came from my eating disorder and all the creativity and all the learning how to feel feelings.
01:33:35.840 --> 01:33:47.760
And I think that anytime we face adversity, an eating disorder, an injury, if we can capture the opportunity that I mentioned earlier, that adversity can become a superpower.
01:33:48.239 --> 01:33:59.199
And I think most people or a lot of people learn about what their feelings are, maybe when they're younger and don't do it in quite a self-aware way.
01:33:59.359 --> 01:34:08.720
But you like really deliberately in your adulthood took upon identifying and cataloging and understanding, expressing your own emotions through like the sheet that Dr.
01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:10.560
Tyson gave you and drawing.
01:34:10.800 --> 01:34:25.199
And so there's something about that too, that you did it so consciously as an adult that I'm sure you're able to teach it to other adults in a way other people might just not have the words for or even the understanding of.
01:34:25.359 --> 01:34:25.920
Yes.
01:34:26.159 --> 01:34:30.399
Because I tell people I've walked down this path before you.
01:34:30.640 --> 01:34:32.319
So I've done the bushwhacking.
01:34:32.479 --> 01:34:33.840
You can just come in back of me.
01:34:34.000 --> 01:34:35.439
I'm right, I'm right here.
01:34:36.399 --> 01:34:37.279
That's wonderful.
01:34:37.840 --> 01:34:40.319
Sore shoulder from that, all that bushwhacking.
01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:52.239
It strikes me when I was listening to this, where you are now, that um just windows healing in from an eating disorder.
01:34:52.640 --> 01:34:58.159
You know, when you start taking it from it's not just healing you, you're healing others.
01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:00.880
And uh there you are.
01:35:01.520 --> 01:35:11.439
You've taken this and what's growing out of it, and you're passing that on, that's still part of the healing that can happen.
01:35:12.960 --> 01:35:34.640
Um there's got to be some metaphor of that, but it kept coming back, kept coming back, all that, and you kept going after it over and over again and went through hell, and now you're helping all these other people and goes, yeah, go through hell, it's okay, you'll you'll get out of there.
01:35:34.800 --> 01:35:48.720
And and that healing for you has reached its, I think, the epitome of healing, and that is when it helps others, when it spills over onto them.
01:35:49.600 --> 01:36:13.359
I'm curious if uh a lot of your athletes kind of have an aha moment where they came into treatment thinking the goal was just to heal the injury and get back to peak performance, and then kind of have an aha that so much other work is being done that's maybe even more valuable than what they signed up for.
01:36:13.920 --> 01:36:16.560
I I'm curious if that's an experience they have.
01:36:16.960 --> 01:36:28.399
A lot of my athletes have that experience, and I know that it's happening because they'll say to me, I don't feel the same way about tennis anymore.
01:36:28.640 --> 01:36:29.039
Yes.
01:36:29.359 --> 01:36:32.479
I don't feel the same way about running anymore.
01:36:32.800 --> 01:36:34.319
Am I still gonna love it?
01:36:34.560 --> 01:36:36.960
Am I still gonna want to go back to it?
01:36:37.520 --> 01:36:43.039
And I'll say, probably, but you're just going to have a different attitude about it.
01:36:43.199 --> 01:36:49.039
It's going to be something that you want to do and not something that you need to do or you have to do.
01:36:49.520 --> 01:36:55.920
And you're going to have some space between you and tennis.
01:36:56.560 --> 01:36:59.840
It's not going to be that you are tennis.
01:37:00.399 --> 01:37:10.720
I had a client who, when I started working with him, he was in high school and he was a very gifted soccer player.
01:37:11.039 --> 01:37:16.479
And he tore his ACL and he ended up with artrofibrosis, which is what I have.
01:37:16.880 --> 01:37:28.319
And there was just something about this kid so wise, so articulate, so committed to getting better mentally.
01:37:29.039 --> 01:37:33.520
And I worked with him probably about five or six years ago.
01:37:34.720 --> 01:37:37.359
And he made tremendous progress.
01:37:38.960 --> 01:37:45.119
And then about a year ago, I co-created an online class for injured athletes.
01:37:45.439 --> 01:37:53.119
And my colleague and I wanted part of the class to be the stories of other injured athletes.
01:37:53.439 --> 01:37:59.600
And I interviewed him, and now he's in college, about to graduate.
01:38:00.239 --> 01:38:15.439
He ended up switching from soccer to tennis, which is a miracle he can play tennis with Arthur fibrosis because that kind of stopping and the joint load of doing all that is remarkable that he can do that.
01:38:15.520 --> 01:38:18.560
He's been incredibly dedicated to his physical recovery.
01:38:18.800 --> 01:38:24.319
And he said something that just I wasn't able to respond to it.
01:38:24.560 --> 01:38:40.319
He said, It took me a while to realize that I got arthrofibrosis, and there is not another injury that you could have that is a more stuck injury.
01:38:40.640 --> 01:38:44.319
Your joint is stuck, it won't move, it's scarred.
01:38:44.560 --> 01:38:47.600
And he said, I was also stuck mentally.
01:38:49.760 --> 01:38:53.840
And my my injury paralleled where I was mentally.
01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:54.720
Yeah.
01:38:57.840 --> 01:39:00.000
He developed looking back on it.
01:39:01.119 --> 01:39:02.960
It happens so many.
01:39:03.680 --> 01:39:05.199
But there is a way through.
01:39:05.920 --> 01:39:10.479
Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast and sharing your story.
01:39:10.720 --> 01:39:13.359
I think there's a lot for people to reflect on.
01:39:13.840 --> 01:39:14.399
Sure is.
01:39:14.640 --> 01:39:21.520
Um, before we go, I kind of want all of us to have a moment to share final thoughts that you would like people to walk away with.
01:39:21.680 --> 01:39:23.119
I'll share mine first.
01:39:23.359 --> 01:39:48.720
I think some takeaways I'm going to take from this conversation are the idea of if you are somebody who sees yourself as a support person, this idea of being a label reader and being able to see something about someone that they can't see and trying to find the right time to express that for them and the right time to give them your sparkly flip-flops and give them a little extra push.
01:39:49.119 --> 01:39:55.680
Um, and also just how that's such a beautiful example of what friendship, true friendship can be.
01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:00.399
Uh, that's something I'm definitely gonna take with me going forward.
01:40:00.880 --> 01:40:16.319
And also this thing that what externally might seem like a huge setback, something like an injury or uh getting to rock bottom with an eating disorder, can be the catalyst for tremendous growth and progress.
01:40:16.479 --> 01:40:24.960
And that that's what living truly is taking that moment and letting it change you and letting something new grow from there.
01:40:25.119 --> 01:40:31.680
Uh, people, whether they're athletes or just normal people, often have a deep fear and anxiety around change.
01:40:31.760 --> 01:40:44.880
It's a very human anxiety, but that the aspect of changing is what it means to be alive and be a person truly engaging in the world is to be changed by it.
01:40:44.960 --> 01:40:46.560
So those are my thoughts.
01:40:46.800 --> 01:40:46.960
Yeah.
01:40:47.199 --> 01:40:47.920
What about you, Dr.
01:40:48.000 --> 01:40:48.399
Tyson?
01:40:48.560 --> 01:40:51.359
What are your takeaways from today's interview?
01:40:53.840 --> 01:40:58.239
I again I am impressed with somebody who has an eating disorder and what they've done with it.
01:40:59.039 --> 01:41:12.319
And I'm the reason I do what I do is I see these kinds of outcomes where they take this, which is a burden that they've had on them, not of their own choosing.
01:41:13.279 --> 01:41:17.439
And there are ways to get out of that.
01:41:17.760 --> 01:41:19.600
And almost always they're there.
01:41:19.920 --> 01:41:40.640
And I encourage people who are in stuck in their eating disorder or are told that they are stuck and they don't want to leave to rethink maybe who is on my side, who can help me through this, who's willing to be by my side and help me through this, and tell me the things I don't want to hear.
01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:47.439
But to do so in a way that I'll accept it if at all possible.
01:41:47.920 --> 01:41:49.760
The more that happens, the better.
01:41:49.840 --> 01:42:05.119
And I certainly want people hearing this to see the reason why we have the podcast, why we have people on here who have gone through what Heidi has gone through, is to let people know you're no different.
01:42:05.600 --> 01:42:08.079
There isn't one of you out there who's any different.
01:42:08.720 --> 01:42:14.560
I I I know people come from horrible situations, and I don't deny that at all.
01:42:14.720 --> 01:42:21.760
But people who have eating disorders are some of the most tenacious, determined, capable people I've ever met.
01:42:22.239 --> 01:42:34.239
And take a chance when you can to take the step and hopefully find somebody, something, maybe a horse, maybe a dog, a friend.
01:42:34.479 --> 01:42:36.319
You never know always.
01:42:36.640 --> 01:42:43.279
And use them to get your secure footing from which you can really grow from there.
01:42:44.880 --> 01:42:45.920
I love that.
01:42:50.319 --> 01:42:59.520
I want people to know that no matter how alone they feel and how bad and dark things are, that they are never alone.
01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:20.560
And the concept of common humanity and shared experiences, even if we're curled up on a couch, unable to move because we're paralyzed by fear, there is somebody else that has been there, is there now, has gone before you.
01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:28.239
Think about being connected to a greater network of humanity and support.
01:43:28.479 --> 01:43:35.359
Even if you have nothing and nobody tangible, you have that.
01:43:35.680 --> 01:43:38.880
You have that connection and common humanity.
01:43:39.920 --> 01:43:43.119
And get help.
01:43:44.239 --> 01:43:46.399
Don't try to do it alone.
01:43:47.279 --> 01:43:48.239
Get help.
01:43:48.479 --> 01:43:54.239
Find yourself a team that won't give up on you if you don't give up on yourself.
01:43:55.039 --> 01:44:00.479
And don't be afraid to talk with a clinician.
01:44:00.640 --> 01:44:03.119
And if you don't feel comfortable, move on.
01:44:03.359 --> 01:44:05.039
Ask hard questions.
01:44:05.359 --> 01:44:08.319
One of the things you taught me is to ask hard questions, Dr.
01:44:08.479 --> 01:44:09.039
Tyson.
01:44:09.279 --> 01:44:15.520
And one of the questions that you you encourage people to ask is, why should I trust you?
01:44:16.640 --> 01:44:17.039
Yep.
01:44:17.359 --> 01:44:22.159
And most clinicians, you ask that question, they're going to be like, Well, why shouldn't you trust me?
01:44:22.239 --> 01:44:24.479
I'll tell you because I have this degree and that degree.
01:44:25.520 --> 01:44:27.920
Run for the hills if somebody tells you that.
01:44:28.239 --> 01:44:31.279
But you will be able to find a team.
01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:34.720
And that team is going to help you.
01:44:35.039 --> 01:44:37.119
And then don't give up on yourself.
01:44:37.279 --> 01:44:45.760
It's not going to be one straight linear progress story.
01:44:45.920 --> 01:44:49.039
It's going to be up and down, it's going to be sinuous.
01:44:49.119 --> 01:44:50.319
You're going to have setbacks.
01:44:50.479 --> 01:44:52.239
Setbacks are very normal.
01:44:52.399 --> 01:44:53.680
They're part of the process.
01:44:53.760 --> 01:44:54.880
And what do you say, Dr.
01:44:55.039 --> 01:44:55.760
Tyson?
01:44:55.920 --> 01:44:59.600
If you're going to hold a nail and hit it with a hammer, what do you do first?
01:45:00.159 --> 01:45:01.199
Cockpack on the hammer.
01:45:01.359 --> 01:45:01.680
That's right.
01:45:02.000 --> 01:45:03.279
Looks like you're going backwards.
01:45:03.520 --> 01:45:03.920
Exactly.
01:45:04.079 --> 01:45:05.039
That's going to happen.
01:45:05.199 --> 01:45:13.680
And then know that at the end of it all, you are going to have superpowers.
01:45:15.279 --> 01:45:21.439
And we have seen and listened to and witnessed all that you've done and you're going to continue to do.
01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:23.119
And it's been a real pleasure.
01:45:23.520 --> 01:45:26.560
Yeah, this is this has been an amazing conversation.
01:45:26.880 --> 01:45:27.439
Thank you so much.
01:45:28.159 --> 01:45:30.000
Thank you so much for this podcast.
01:45:30.159 --> 01:45:31.760
It is a gift to humanity.
01:45:32.159 --> 01:45:34.880
When she said, Well, what can you tell me about Heidi?
01:45:35.199 --> 01:45:36.399
I was like, Yeah.
01:45:36.800 --> 01:45:39.920
I was kind of like, well, let me see where to start.
01:45:40.239 --> 01:45:41.199
Yeah, something stuff.
01:45:41.359 --> 01:45:42.319
I was like, okay.
01:45:42.479 --> 01:45:43.600
So wait, what did she do?
01:45:43.680 --> 01:45:46.880
And he's like, well, this and this, and then also this and this.
01:45:46.960 --> 01:45:47.840
And I was like, huh.
01:45:48.479 --> 01:45:48.800
Okay.
01:45:48.880 --> 01:45:50.079
And she was kind of all right.
01:45:50.159 --> 01:45:52.000
I said, so I send her your information.
01:45:52.479 --> 01:45:53.119
I was able to read that.
01:45:53.279 --> 01:45:54.720
And she was able to go through that.
01:45:54.800 --> 01:45:56.319
And then hearing more.
01:45:56.560 --> 01:45:56.880
Yeah.
01:45:57.359 --> 01:45:59.199
It's just wonderful.
01:45:59.439 --> 01:45:59.920
It's great.
01:46:00.319 --> 01:46:14.239
There's something also there, too, you know, some of the stuff that can make it really hard for an athlete and somebody who has an eating disorder to let go of that behavior is that it's tied up in identity, that a certain thing you do becomes who you are.
01:46:14.399 --> 01:46:19.600
And I love how you now have such a diverse amount of things.
01:46:19.840 --> 01:46:23.279
Like your pillar is not just I am tennis, like you were saying, right?
01:46:23.920 --> 01:46:33.840
You have so many different things that bring you joy and meaning and purpose in your life rather than just a single thing that you're balancing your roof on top of.
01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.840
Um and I think I think that's important.
01:46:38.079 --> 01:46:41.600
And that all started with recovery from my eating disorder.
01:46:41.920 --> 01:46:42.560
Yeah.
01:46:43.199 --> 01:46:44.159
And drawing.
01:46:44.319 --> 01:46:45.760
Uh shout out to drawing.
01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:48.399
If you're out there, yeah.
01:46:49.279 --> 01:46:51.840
Maybe pick up a pen, pet your dog.
01:46:52.079 --> 01:46:57.119
Maybe don't spray paint your house as you're doing it, but uh you know if it works.
01:46:57.680 --> 01:47:00.000
Some people have gotten popular for that.
01:47:00.079 --> 01:47:01.920
So all right.
01:47:02.079 --> 01:47:05.520
Well, thank you so much, Heidi, for being on the podcast today.
01:47:05.680 --> 01:47:08.239
Where can people find more of your work?
01:47:08.800 --> 01:47:19.199
I am at injured athletes toolbox.com, and then my canine work, canine trigger point massage therapy is canine athletes toolbox.com.
01:47:19.520 --> 01:47:20.479
Amazing.
01:47:20.720 --> 01:47:24.079
So please go check those out if they interest you.
01:47:24.239 --> 01:47:26.079
And you can always reach out to us.
01:47:26.239 --> 01:47:31.439
Let us know what you thought of this episode or any previous ones, edonedpodcast at gmail.com.
01:47:31.520 --> 01:47:33.199
We always love hearing from you guys.
01:47:33.439 --> 01:47:34.399
Thank you, Dr.
01:47:34.560 --> 01:47:37.840
Ed, for taking the time out of your busy schedule to be on the podcast.
01:47:38.079 --> 01:47:39.119
Well, you too.
01:47:39.359 --> 01:47:46.319
And thank you, listener, for taking time out of your day to learn something new and listen to this conversation with us.
01:47:46.479 --> 01:47:48.000
Till next time, I'm Liz.
01:47:48.159 --> 01:47:48.880
And I'm Dr.
01:47:49.119 --> 01:47:49.359
Ed.
01:47:49.840 --> 01:47:50.960
And I'm Heidi.
01:47:51.520 --> 01:47:53.439
And this has been Ed on Ed.
01:47:54.239 --> 01:47:54.880
Bye.