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The opinions expressed on
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this program
represent the viewpoints
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of individual authors
or contributors
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and do not necessarily reflect
those of Troy University.
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This is, in conversations
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a joint production of Troy
Trojan Vision and Emmanuel H.
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Johnson Center
for Political Economy.
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Now here's your host, Dr.
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Dan Sutter.
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Hello
and welcome to Conversations.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Dan Sarah of the Johnson Center
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for Political Economy
at Troy University.
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No one wants to be operated on
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by a surgeon
who didn't go to medical school
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or have their two teeth
drilled by an amateur dentist.
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We need to take in
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the expertise of specialists
in our daily lives.
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But by definition, people
are going to lack the knowledge
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to evaluate for ourselves
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whether alleged experts
are truly competent.
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Occupational licensing
is the means by which we turn
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to government to ensure
the expertise of professionals.
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But licensing
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today extends far beyond fields
like medicine or dentistry
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and it's estimated that one
fifth of the American workforce
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now requires licensing,
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which has also been called
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the government permission
slip to work.
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How do economists
measure the extent of licensing
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in the modern workplace
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and what states license
the most occupations?
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Joining me on the conversations
today is an alum of the Johnson
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Center, Dr. Noah Trudeau.
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Noah majored in economics
at Jacksonville State before
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earning a master's
degree here at Troy
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and then going on to get a Ph.D.
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from West Virginia University,
where he was the first of our
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Masters alums
to actually earn a Ph.D..
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Dr. Trudeau then returned to
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Troy, is a professor of data
analytics and 2023
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today
will be talking about his work
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with the Arch Bridge Institute
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on their State
Occupational Licensing Index,
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which was coauthored
with Edward Timmons.
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Welcome back to the show.
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No thanks to him.
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And so let's talk
a little bit about this project
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that you have,
just a very broad terms,
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and then we'll get into some of
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the details
by occupational licensing
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for you and tell us how you got
into being interested
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in occupational licensing
in the first place.
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Yeah, so my interest
in occupational licensing
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actually started
when I was a student here, Troy.
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I believe we did an E
Conversations episode on it.
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I was talking about licensing
of funeral directors.
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That was my first foray
into the occupational
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licensing environment.
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I coauthored a paper with
then Professor Dan Smith,
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who is now on Middle Tennessee,
and that was
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that was my intro
into occupational licensing
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while I was a student
at West Virginia.
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That paper that I coauthored
was under went under review
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and then was eventually
published.
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And I later found out
that one of the reviewers
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was Professor Ed Timmons,
who is I'd call me.
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He's like the Godfather
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of the occupational licensing
environment.
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Ed is Ed
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is a wonderful, prolific author
in the occupational
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licensing space.
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Now he is the director
of the new Center,
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the new Regulatory
Research Center.
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They've recently rebranded.
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They focus on
occupational licensing,
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scope of practice
and certificate of need laws.
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So they work in occupational
regulation
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across all environments.
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As I was studying at West
Virginia, I was looking to have
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a advisor and outside committee
member for my dissertation.
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So having met Ed
and becoming friends with him,
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he was he was outside of
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he was working at Saint
Francis University at the time.
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And I said, Ed, you know,
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I need an outside
and an outside committee member.
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You are the guy.
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Would you would you be willing
to sit on my committee?
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And I said, absolutely.
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You know, I'd be happy
to have you do advise on this.
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That led
to us working more together.
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And then as I was a senior
at West Virginia or a fifth year
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grad student
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looking at the job market,
I guess the center that he
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he is the director of moved
to West Virginia University.
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So we started to work
a lot more in tandem.
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And he got to know a little bit
more of my my interest.
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And one of those interests
that I have
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is with occupational licensing.
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Unlike things
like a driver's license,
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which is very standardized
across states,
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you can take your driver's
license to another state,
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you can drive your car
in other states.
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Occupational licenses
are not that simple.
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So sometimes becoming a plumber
in Alabama means
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that you can't be a plumber
in Georgia
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or you can't be a plumber
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in Florida or Mississippi
or Tennessee.
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Some states have what we call
reciprocity.
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Some states have
universal recognition.
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But one of the other things
that that kind of runs into this
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is states define occupations
slightly differently.
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So there there's
no standard definition
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for what is an electrician,
what is a
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what is a physician,
what is a dentist.
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And technically,
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there are some colloquially
understood definitions.
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But one of the complications
we run into is
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it's kind of left
up to each state how they define
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these occupations.
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And one question
that I've always had
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and Ed agreed with me
was if you were to look
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at every state
and try to kind of
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put them on a scale together
of who is the strictest
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about licensing in general,
how would you go about it and
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what ultimately
would be the results.
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So we have ideas.
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A lot of people will compare
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very like strict definition
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of occupations across,
and we can look at like
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different barriers
for an occupation.
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But we wanted a general idea
of occupation, occupational
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licensing as a whole across
all of the states.
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And so that's what we've tried
to answer with this index.
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And so we start with
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the case of people
like dentists or doctors.
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And clearly, you know,
I mean, it's a matter of life
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and death.
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If your doctor
actually knows what they did
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or if they is,
as the commercial suggests,
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they just stayed at a Holiday
Inn Express last night.
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But we've seen occupational
licensing
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spread to a lot of other
occupations that are not nearly
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as intense professional
or the kind of thing
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that you need to go to graduate
or professional school for
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and things like even like
being a florist, as is licensed
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at least I think, in one state.
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Right. So
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tell us a little bit about this,
this spread to these other
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occupations
where you think like, well,
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maybe you need to know
something about hair
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cutting hair, but I don't know.
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Do you really need to go to
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a lot of training
to try and become a barber?
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Right.
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So the rationale
for occupational licensing
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is it's exclusively thought of
in the service aspect.
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You can't verify
the quality of a service
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until you've received
that service.
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And so you'd really like to know
that your brain surgeon
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is going to perform
a really good job
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because you don't want to wait
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until after you've
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had brain surgery to find out
that the brain surgeon
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did not know
exactly what they were doing.
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In that case,
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it is very much life or death
or similar. This is spread
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it's spread through
the medical profession. So
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in the
early 20th century, early
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1900s, occupational licensing
was about 5% of occupations.
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It was mostly
in the medical fields.
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One of the first places
that it was spread was actually
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talked about
by Milton Friedman in the paper.
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It was the spread
from physicians to dentists.
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And Friedman argued
that dentists are not as are
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needing of that verification
as potentially your
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your cardiac doctor or
your brain surgeon or whomever,
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and then begin to
just proliferate and do kind of
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we kind of see occupations
with similar scope
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spread
or we see it as a reaction
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to not necessarily tragedy,
but possible accidents.
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We see things like barbers
become licensed after outbreaks
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of what they call barber's itch,
which is an infection
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that you can get from poorly
cleaned barber instruments.
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One of our other Johnson Center
alums,
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Shawn Alvarez, has done
a paper on the barber's itch
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and how that is spread through
why we see barber licensure.
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But that
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that occupational license
presence spreads and spreads
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and some of attributed it
to special interests.
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So if you have a collected group
of individuals
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who want to extract rents
from the people around them,
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if you can get the government
to issue a license,
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then you are going to restrict
competition.
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Some people think of it
as just a miss
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misinterpreted
public safety issue.
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So things like barbers,
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you don't want your barber
to accidentally cut you
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and you actually get
an infection.
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Things like funeral directors,
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you don't want someone
to accidentally
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mistakenly embalm someone or
cause an accident in that space.
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And then in the case of florist,
Louisiana has actually has
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a florist license
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and that is that has come
through generations
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and generations of reasoning.
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So the Louisiana Foreign florist
license goes back,
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I believe, to the late 1800s,
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and it has a little bit
of special interest background,
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but that is currently
going to a district court.
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So we'll see if Louisiana's
florist license
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makes it
through the end of 2024.
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And then there is
another element.
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If you're one of the
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practitioners in a field
like this,
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reputation
is necessarily collective.
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And so if there are some people
calling themselves, you know,
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massage therapists,
but they're actually sort of
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like sexual predators
or something like that,
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you know, any
but a handful of of bad actors
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could cast a really bad light
on others working in this space.
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And so, you know,
you can sort of understand like
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there is some
collective interest in this
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and trying to make sure
that people don't
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bring disgrace or disrepute
to your your field,
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even though you yourself
are a respected practitioner.
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Right. Absolutely.
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So most people would see me
as somebody who is anti
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occupational
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just based on
on working on things like this
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index, working on some papers
where I try to point out the
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overreaching of
official licensing occasionally.
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But I see myself as someone
who is just advocating for
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a little bit
more of a rational approach to
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what needs to be licensed is
what is the extent of harm
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that can be done,
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What is
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what is the cost of actually
putting this barrier in place?
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Because occupational licensing
is what we call a barrier to
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barrier to entry.
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If you want to become a barber,
you have to become licensed.
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I mean, you have to go
to barbers,
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barbers, college
or a barber school.
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You have to
do an apprenticeship.
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You have to be able to pay the
legitimate cost of the license.
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You have to pay for your fee.
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You have to pay,
you know, every year
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to have that license renewed.
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Those are all
some very incredible costs
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in terms of time.
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So what ends up happening
is with a lot of this licensing,
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the unseen cost
253
00:10:55,821 --> 00:10:58,624
is the cost of people
that do not pursue these jobs
254
00:10:58,624 --> 00:11:02,061
because they don't have that
time or the money or the ability
255
00:11:02,395 --> 00:11:07,767
to go to college to
take out a loan to do these
256
00:11:08,134 --> 00:11:12,104
these specific requirements
for this license.
257
00:11:12,104 --> 00:11:14,640
And that really hinders
economic mobility,
258
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,076
occasionally hinders
physical mobility.
259
00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:18,177
People people choose
260
00:11:18,177 --> 00:11:18,778
not to move
261
00:11:18,778 --> 00:11:20,846
to a new state or something
because they can't
262
00:11:20,846 --> 00:11:22,648
take their license with them.
263
00:11:22,648 --> 00:11:24,917
So we worry about those.
264
00:11:24,917 --> 00:11:27,219
And there are also other ways,
265
00:11:27,219 --> 00:11:28,521
and that's something
we're going to talk about.
266
00:11:28,521 --> 00:11:31,357
There are also some
other alternatives to licensing.
267
00:11:31,357 --> 00:11:34,627
And you mentioned in the study,
but you're not tracking them
268
00:11:34,627 --> 00:11:36,996
with a certification
registration.
269
00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:38,197
So, you know,
270
00:11:38,197 --> 00:11:41,967
there might be some less onerous
alternatives
271
00:11:41,967 --> 00:11:42,868
that could still help
272
00:11:43,869 --> 00:11:46,505
assure members of the
public that somebody who says
273
00:11:46,505 --> 00:11:47,573
that they're like, for instance,
274
00:11:47,573 --> 00:11:51,811
a CPA is certainly
a certified public accountant.
275
00:11:51,844 --> 00:11:52,144
Right.
276
00:11:52,144 --> 00:11:53,646
And so there are
277
00:11:53,646 --> 00:11:56,315
things like certification
that that could be alternatives.
278
00:11:56,315 --> 00:11:56,615
Right.
279
00:11:56,615 --> 00:11:57,083
We say that
280
00:11:57,083 --> 00:12:00,352
licensing is the most onerous
or the most strict
281
00:12:00,352 --> 00:12:03,355
form of regulation
or verification of quality.
282
00:12:03,389 --> 00:12:05,191
And the consequences
of practicing
283
00:12:05,191 --> 00:12:07,660
without a license
are the harshest you can.
284
00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:10,596
You can serve actual jail
time for practicing
285
00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:11,530
without a license.
286
00:12:11,530 --> 00:12:16,469
So it is it is incredibly
onerous in terms of the cost of
287
00:12:16,535 --> 00:12:19,905
what happens if you do not have
that verification.
288
00:12:20,406 --> 00:12:24,076
And then the way that these
standards get developed
289
00:12:24,143 --> 00:12:28,514
usually is that the state
allows a board of practitioners
290
00:12:28,814 --> 00:12:29,682
to be formed
291
00:12:29,682 --> 00:12:31,751
and then they're going
to actually set like,
292
00:12:31,751 --> 00:12:34,687
okay, why do you have to
actually do to become a barber?
293
00:12:34,687 --> 00:12:35,788
And that's one of the areas
294
00:12:35,788 --> 00:12:38,791
where, well, once
you're empowering that board,
295
00:12:38,858 --> 00:12:42,995
they can always sort of increase
those barriers.
296
00:12:42,995 --> 00:12:46,465
You actually create a barrier
as opposed to simply something
297
00:12:46,465 --> 00:12:49,235
that would be
rationally connected to, okay,
298
00:12:49,235 --> 00:12:52,671
if you're going to perform as
a professional in this field,
299
00:12:52,838 --> 00:12:54,707
what do you actually need
to know? Right.
300
00:12:54,707 --> 00:12:57,710
So we have we have professionals
who already have that license
301
00:12:57,943 --> 00:12:59,712
choosing the bar.
302
00:12:59,712 --> 00:13:02,448
You have to jump over, right,
to obtain that license.
303
00:13:02,448 --> 00:13:05,417
And so that that becomes
an ethical question as well.
304
00:13:05,417 --> 00:13:07,953
And we've seen cases
go to the Supreme Court
305
00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,756
where professionals
have extended
306
00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:12,158
the scope of their licenses.
307
00:13:12,158 --> 00:13:13,392
North Carolina,
308
00:13:13,392 --> 00:13:17,029
the North Carolina dentists
decided in 2013
309
00:13:17,029 --> 00:13:19,198
that teeth whitening
counted as dentistry.
310
00:13:19,198 --> 00:13:23,269
So where everything from these
like strip mall teeth whitening
311
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:25,604
companies to
they sent cease and desist
312
00:13:25,604 --> 00:13:28,140
letters to the companies
where you could do the teeth
313
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:30,876
whitening yourself
with the teeth whitening strips.
314
00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:35,381
So we see overreach sometimes
bad actors in that case.
315
00:13:36,615 --> 00:13:38,217
All right. So
316
00:13:38,217 --> 00:13:41,821
you've put together this index
along with the ad champions.
317
00:13:41,821 --> 00:13:45,024
And so let's just talk
to a little bit
318
00:13:45,024 --> 00:13:47,059
of what you had to do to
to do this.
319
00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:51,964
And you looked at hundreds
of occupations.
320
00:13:51,964 --> 00:13:56,035
But, you know, let's start
with what exactly
321
00:13:56,035 --> 00:13:59,839
you do to construct this index
That could be used by economists
322
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:03,309
and other researchers
to help study this phenomenon.
323
00:14:03,943 --> 00:14:04,276
Right.
324
00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:08,614
So as I mentioned before, states
don't necessarily
325
00:14:08,614 --> 00:14:09,915
define occupations.
326
00:14:09,915 --> 00:14:10,916
Similarly,
327
00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:13,118
we all colloquially
as individuals,
328
00:14:13,118 --> 00:14:14,954
we have an idea of what it means
to be a dentist,
329
00:14:14,954 --> 00:14:17,056
what it means to be a doctor,
what it means to be a barber,
330
00:14:17,056 --> 00:14:20,025
a massage therapist,
florist, etc.
331
00:14:20,226 --> 00:14:24,096
The Regulatory Research center
keeps a database on commonly
332
00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:27,967
used and occasionally not
so commonly licensed occupations
333
00:14:28,267 --> 00:14:29,735
by the occupation title.
334
00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:32,271
So everything
335
00:14:32,271 --> 00:14:37,776
from general contractor
to fighter timekeeper
336
00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:40,813
for for for a boxing match.
337
00:14:42,147 --> 00:14:44,183
Using that database,
338
00:14:44,183 --> 00:14:47,586
we looked at approximately 330
339
00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:50,656
occupations that are licensed
in at least one state.
340
00:14:51,123 --> 00:14:54,126
And we wanted to see
341
00:14:54,793 --> 00:14:57,796
if a state
had a specific license for that,
342
00:14:57,796 --> 00:15:00,165
like a named license
for that occupation,
343
00:15:00,165 --> 00:15:02,801
or if a state had a license
that would bar
344
00:15:02,801 --> 00:15:05,137
the practice of that occupation
somehow,
345
00:15:05,137 --> 00:15:08,140
which is best illustrated
by Alabama, in my opinion,
346
00:15:08,507 --> 00:15:11,477
acupuncturists in some states.
347
00:15:12,444 --> 00:15:14,380
So if you want to get
the needling done
348
00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:18,484
for medical purposes,
traditional, it is a descendant
349
00:15:18,484 --> 00:15:21,086
of traditional Chinese medicine
in Alabama.
350
00:15:21,086 --> 00:15:23,188
You cannot have
an acupuncturist license.
351
00:15:23,188 --> 00:15:25,424
You cannot practice acupuncture
352
00:15:25,424 --> 00:15:29,495
without being a doctor,
without being a physician.
353
00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:31,630
So you have to go to medical
school,
354
00:15:31,630 --> 00:15:33,265
you have to become a doctor,
355
00:15:33,265 --> 00:15:35,267
and then you can
practice acupuncture.
356
00:15:35,267 --> 00:15:38,270
So any acupuncturist
that you see in Alabama
357
00:15:38,304 --> 00:15:41,240
doing true acupuncture
advertises as acupuncture.
358
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,243
You can rest assured
that they are doctors
359
00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:47,079
in some states
such as South Carolina, though
360
00:15:47,079 --> 00:15:48,914
they actually have
an acupuncture license.
361
00:15:48,914 --> 00:15:50,449
So instead of going
and becoming a doctor,
362
00:15:50,449 --> 00:15:51,583
you can get a bachelor's
363
00:15:51,583 --> 00:15:54,620
degree
in physical therapy physiology.
364
00:15:54,987 --> 00:15:57,990
A little bit of
continuing education credits,
365
00:15:58,090 --> 00:15:59,391
maybe a special training,
366
00:15:59,391 --> 00:16:01,126
and you could become
an acupuncturist.
367
00:16:01,126 --> 00:16:04,129
So in this case, we see where
occupational licensing,
368
00:16:04,496 --> 00:16:07,166
another license
isn't necessarily a bad thing.
369
00:16:07,166 --> 00:16:08,934
So if someone wants to become
an acupuncturist
370
00:16:08,934 --> 00:16:11,136
in Alabama,
it's incredibly costly,
371
00:16:11,136 --> 00:16:13,305
but it's a little less costly
to do so in South Carolina.
372
00:16:14,306 --> 00:16:16,875
So we look at
373
00:16:16,875 --> 00:16:20,713
just whether or not states
have this license specifically
374
00:16:21,013 --> 00:16:22,748
and whether or not they have
what we call a barrier.
375
00:16:22,748 --> 00:16:26,218
So that would be
is is barred by something
376
00:16:27,586 --> 00:16:29,154
that is not that title.
377
00:16:29,154 --> 00:16:32,791
We see this happen with
some electrical occupations.
378
00:16:33,092 --> 00:16:34,360
So some states have just
379
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,729
an electrician license
and that means that you can do
380
00:16:36,729 --> 00:16:40,599
any any electric in electrician
based things.
381
00:16:40,599 --> 00:16:41,834
You can even run wires,
you could do
382
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:43,635
residential,
you could do commercial,
383
00:16:43,635 --> 00:16:47,439
you can do like heavy machinery,
electrical, electrical work.
384
00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:50,109
There are sign electricians.
385
00:16:50,109 --> 00:16:51,210
So some states actually have
386
00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:53,379
a specific sign
electrician license
387
00:16:53,379 --> 00:16:56,382
and some states divvy up
more than just electrician.
388
00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:59,685
They have a list of different
types of electricians.
389
00:16:59,685 --> 00:17:02,254
And if you want to be more
than one type of electrician,
390
00:17:02,254 --> 00:17:03,989
you have to get additional
license also.
391
00:17:03,989 --> 00:17:07,326
So in that case, so a state
where they would just have
392
00:17:07,526 --> 00:17:08,360
an electrician
393
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:11,363
license would only have one
named license for electrician.
394
00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:13,399
But that's going to bar
a lot of these different
395
00:17:13,399 --> 00:17:15,768
occupational titles
that we that we have.
396
00:17:15,768 --> 00:17:19,038
So we wanted to get an idea
of not necessarily
397
00:17:19,038 --> 00:17:22,474
just how many title licenses
you have,
398
00:17:22,808 --> 00:17:26,478
but how many occupational titles
does that stop
399
00:17:26,612 --> 00:17:27,913
you from getting into.
400
00:17:27,913 --> 00:17:28,814
And so we created this
401
00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:31,483
nomenclature of barriers
versus licenses.
402
00:17:31,483 --> 00:17:35,754
So barriers is a measure
of how difficult it is
403
00:17:35,754 --> 00:17:39,024
to just get into one of these
like, license occupations.
404
00:17:39,358 --> 00:17:42,528
Gives a general overview of how
405
00:17:42,795 --> 00:17:44,430
how many walls
you were putting up
406
00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:48,534
or how many how many spaces in
each of these 300 occupations.
407
00:17:48,867 --> 00:17:50,135
How many
408
00:17:50,135 --> 00:17:53,405
are you trying to stop people
from just easily getting into?
409
00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:57,476
I, I mean, licenses
gives us an idea of kind
410
00:17:57,476 --> 00:17:59,445
of the bureaucratic
aspect of it.
411
00:17:59,445 --> 00:18:02,481
So more licenses means more
boards, means more paperwork.
412
00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:08,120
It could mean
more just money involved.
413
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,123
So you talk about fees
and processing.
414
00:18:11,557 --> 00:18:14,526
You talk about
just like steps of approval.
415
00:18:14,726 --> 00:18:17,563
So so
the number of total licenses
416
00:18:18,530 --> 00:18:21,533
gives us an idea in that space.
417
00:18:21,567 --> 00:18:23,569
And so ultimately, we rank
418
00:18:23,569 --> 00:18:25,304
the states
based on our distribution.
419
00:18:25,304 --> 00:18:26,738
30 occupations.
420
00:18:26,738 --> 00:18:28,841
How many do you have
a barrier for
421
00:18:28,841 --> 00:18:32,311
and how many total licenses do
you have for that?
422
00:18:32,311 --> 00:18:34,413
Many various.
423
00:18:34,413 --> 00:18:36,915
And these were some of the ones
down at the bottom of the list.
424
00:18:36,915 --> 00:18:41,286
So these are some professions
licensed in just one state.
425
00:18:41,286 --> 00:18:45,157
So you get into some
pretty specific things
426
00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:46,058
that get rolled out.
427
00:18:46,058 --> 00:18:49,428
Everybody give me a sense
of just exactly how far.
428
00:18:49,595 --> 00:18:49,828
I mean,
429
00:18:49,828 --> 00:18:50,462
you might
430
00:18:50,462 --> 00:18:53,198
already have a license,
over 300 different occupation.
431
00:18:53,198 --> 00:18:57,002
It's you're extending pretty
broad and pretty far across
432
00:18:57,002 --> 00:18:58,704
the economy. Right.
433
00:18:58,704 --> 00:19:01,039
So we we get into some
434
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:03,108
what we call uniquely license
occupations.
435
00:19:03,108 --> 00:19:05,644
One of the features of the index
is for every state we talk
436
00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:07,713
about their most uniquely
license occupation,
437
00:19:07,713 --> 00:19:11,116
which is the occupation that
that state has a license for.
438
00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:12,584
That is the fewest
439
00:19:12,584 --> 00:19:14,086
that or the fewest the
440
00:19:14,086 --> 00:19:16,989
the farthest down the list in
terms of total total licenses.
441
00:19:16,989 --> 00:19:19,525
So things like the lightning
protection contractor
442
00:19:19,525 --> 00:19:20,859
is licensed in Rhode Island.
443
00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:25,097
Rhode Island has a specific
electrician ish license
444
00:19:25,097 --> 00:19:26,398
where
if you were going to install
445
00:19:26,398 --> 00:19:28,433
lightning
rods or lightning protection,
446
00:19:28,433 --> 00:19:29,601
you must have a license.
447
00:19:29,601 --> 00:19:32,938
In a lot of states
that may fall under
448
00:19:32,938 --> 00:19:34,506
an unlicensed profession.
449
00:19:34,506 --> 00:19:37,176
But Rhode
Island has it. Specifically.
450
00:19:37,176 --> 00:19:39,912
We also have things
like nutritionist, assistant,
451
00:19:39,912 --> 00:19:41,580
which is licensed
in New Mexico,
452
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:43,315
I believe we're going to rename
that one this year.
453
00:19:43,315 --> 00:19:46,385
I think they renamed it recently
to nutritionist, associate.
454
00:19:46,818 --> 00:19:49,888
New Mexico Care is very much
about their nutrition
455
00:19:49,888 --> 00:19:50,656
based occupations.
456
00:19:50,656 --> 00:19:52,791
They have dietitians,
nutritionist,
457
00:19:52,791 --> 00:19:55,694
dietitian, nutritionist
and nutritionist, associates.
458
00:19:55,694 --> 00:19:56,795
They have four different
459
00:19:56,795 --> 00:19:58,263
occupations in that space
460
00:19:58,263 --> 00:20:00,232
where some states
just have nutritionists.
461
00:20:00,232 --> 00:20:02,734
So we we try to illustrate.
462
00:20:02,734 --> 00:20:05,337
And the point of these
is to show
463
00:20:05,337 --> 00:20:07,539
at least
the legislators in those states,
464
00:20:07,539 --> 00:20:09,741
hey, this is something you're
doing that no one else is.
465
00:20:09,741 --> 00:20:14,279
And if that's the case,
maybe you aren't in the right
466
00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:16,148
like you're like
you go with the flow.
467
00:20:16,148 --> 00:20:19,785
You know, 50, 50 other states
are like to do this as well.
468
00:20:19,785 --> 00:20:21,820
That's that's not the worst.
469
00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:23,288
Like everybody
has the expectation
470
00:20:23,288 --> 00:20:24,523
that you might have a license.
471
00:20:24,523 --> 00:20:27,259
But if you're Louisiana
and you license florists,
472
00:20:27,259 --> 00:20:30,262
that's a little
that's a little odd. So.
473
00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:31,230
Well, now
474
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:34,399
then you have to create
a numerical index, right?
475
00:20:34,433 --> 00:20:36,802
So it could be, especially
since we as economists
476
00:20:36,802 --> 00:20:40,305
like to do statistical analysis
or regression analysis.
477
00:20:40,305 --> 00:20:43,675
And so you need to have
an index was what you did here.
478
00:20:43,942 --> 00:20:46,044
So we just did
a simple normalization.
479
00:20:46,044 --> 00:20:48,847
We took the state
that is the worst at that thing,
480
00:20:48,847 --> 00:20:49,715
quote unquote worst.
481
00:20:49,715 --> 00:20:51,984
Those state
with the most barriers
482
00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:54,152
or the most licenses,
we do it for each.
483
00:20:54,152 --> 00:20:56,255
And then we look at the state
that had the least.
484
00:20:56,255 --> 00:21:01,260
And so we say on a scale of 0
to 10 or 1 to 10, 1 to 10,
485
00:21:01,526 --> 00:21:05,664
your your
486
00:21:05,864 --> 00:21:07,199
if you are the one
487
00:21:07,199 --> 00:21:09,668
who has the most licenses
or the most barriers,
488
00:21:09,668 --> 00:21:11,003
we're going to write you a ten.
489
00:21:11,003 --> 00:21:12,971
And if you're the one that is
the the least,
490
00:21:12,971 --> 00:21:14,406
we're going to rate you a one.
491
00:21:14,406 --> 00:21:14,706
And then
492
00:21:14,706 --> 00:21:18,210
everybody fits on that scale
somewhere between one and ten.
493
00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:21,513
And that way it also easily
communicates kind of
494
00:21:22,114 --> 00:21:23,382
what you fall on the pack.
495
00:21:23,382 --> 00:21:24,483
So if you're
following it to five,
496
00:21:24,483 --> 00:21:25,751
that means you're
right in the middle,
497
00:21:25,751 --> 00:21:26,885
in four and close to ten.
498
00:21:26,885 --> 00:21:28,487
That means that you're
you're one of the worse
499
00:21:28,487 --> 00:21:30,088
If you're following
really close to one,
500
00:21:30,088 --> 00:21:31,323
that means
you're one of the best.
501
00:21:31,323 --> 00:21:35,527
So the idea is just the higher
your number, the more barriers
502
00:21:35,527 --> 00:21:36,395
or the more licenses.
503
00:21:36,395 --> 00:21:40,832
And then just you have
some numbers there to illustrate
504
00:21:40,832 --> 00:21:43,835
and you happen to have Alabama
so we can show this here.
505
00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:48,573
So Alabama is actually pretty
near the top in terms of
506
00:21:49,675 --> 00:21:51,009
having the most variance.
507
00:21:51,009 --> 00:21:52,678
And the two mentioned you
mentioned
508
00:21:52,678 --> 00:21:54,513
is like 330 different things.
509
00:21:54,513 --> 00:21:57,516
Not all, fortunately.
510
00:21:57,582 --> 00:21:59,284
No state, no licenses.
511
00:21:59,284 --> 00:22:02,287
Three means all to all 330.
512
00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:04,523
I believe
Arkansas is our first place.
513
00:22:04,523 --> 00:22:06,191
As of last year,
it was Arkansas, Texas
514
00:22:06,191 --> 00:22:09,194
and then Alabama,
I believe, in terms of barriers.
515
00:22:09,194 --> 00:22:12,364
So I think Arkansas, of the 330,
516
00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:16,101
we have somewhere around
230, 240 barriers.
517
00:22:16,368 --> 00:22:20,405
So even in the 330, we're no
one's getting close to like 300.
518
00:22:20,906 --> 00:22:24,576
And in the other hand,
nobody's less than 147, right?
519
00:22:24,576 --> 00:22:25,544
So yeah,
520
00:22:25,544 --> 00:22:27,379
there's
nobody that isn't licensing
521
00:22:27,379 --> 00:22:29,481
and there's nobody
that's licensing all of these.
522
00:22:29,481 --> 00:22:33,785
So we're really talking
about on a scale of 147 to 247,
523
00:22:33,785 --> 00:22:39,291
there's about 100 200 barriers
of flexibility in there. And
524
00:22:40,292 --> 00:22:41,226
so now we can take
525
00:22:41,226 --> 00:22:42,361
take a look at which are the
526
00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:45,197
the states
that score the highest,
527
00:22:45,197 --> 00:22:47,432
which in this case
would be worse if you think or
528
00:22:47,432 --> 00:22:48,667
or let's face it.
529
00:22:48,667 --> 00:22:51,570
Yes they they lie
they license the most Yes.
530
00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:54,272
In the states
that license the lease. Yes.
531
00:22:54,272 --> 00:22:56,108
So what we found was Arkansas,
Texas
532
00:22:56,108 --> 00:22:57,776
and Alabama
have the most barriers.
533
00:22:57,776 --> 00:22:59,911
So out of all of these
different occupations,
534
00:22:59,911 --> 00:23:02,914
there is something stopping you
from practicing.
535
00:23:03,615 --> 00:23:04,950
Our friends in Arkansas,
536
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:07,085
the Arkansas Center
for Research
537
00:23:07,085 --> 00:23:09,187
and Economics, took a really,
really big interest in this.
538
00:23:09,187 --> 00:23:10,489
And they've helped us
539
00:23:10,489 --> 00:23:13,625
delve into what some of these
these barriers are looking like
540
00:23:13,625 --> 00:23:16,261
and why Arkansas is listed
as number one.
541
00:23:16,261 --> 00:23:17,662
One thing that we found
542
00:23:17,662 --> 00:23:19,698
interesting about
this is these are states,
543
00:23:19,698 --> 00:23:22,501
these top five, Arkansas, Texas,
Alabama, Oklahoma
544
00:23:22,501 --> 00:23:23,635
and Washington.
545
00:23:23,635 --> 00:23:26,104
Well, at least like those top 40
we think of these is like
546
00:23:26,104 --> 00:23:29,908
very like economically
liberal states.
547
00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:33,412
These are these are promoting
like personal freedoms.
548
00:23:33,779 --> 00:23:37,449
These are traditionally more
economically liberal states.
549
00:23:37,449 --> 00:23:37,849
These are
550
00:23:37,849 --> 00:23:39,017
these are places
that you wouldn't
551
00:23:39,017 --> 00:23:41,787
necessarily expect
this this type of behavior.
552
00:23:43,488 --> 00:23:45,457
Whereas
states that when I asked people
553
00:23:45,457 --> 00:23:49,995
they think New York, California,
like more or more regulatory
554
00:23:49,995 --> 00:23:51,897
heavy states generally,
555
00:23:51,897 --> 00:23:54,900
which end up I think
California falls in number 11.
556
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:57,002
New York falls a lot closer
to the middle of the pack,
557
00:23:57,002 --> 00:23:59,037
somewhere between 25 and 30.
558
00:23:59,037 --> 00:24:03,708
It's a little unusual
because these are kind of like
559
00:24:03,708 --> 00:24:04,409
unseen costs.
560
00:24:04,409 --> 00:24:05,310
So these are things that people
561
00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:08,313
don't usually actively
think about when we say,
562
00:24:08,346 --> 00:24:11,516
you know, 20
more than 20% of the US
563
00:24:11,550 --> 00:24:13,652
workforce
has an occupational license,
564
00:24:13,652 --> 00:24:15,287
that means that someone you know
565
00:24:15,287 --> 00:24:17,189
has a license
for their occupation.
566
00:24:17,189 --> 00:24:20,225
I did a of a trip
with some students yesterday
567
00:24:20,225 --> 00:24:23,028
and they were talking to some
insurance insurance brokers.
568
00:24:23,028 --> 00:24:24,229
They are licensed,
569
00:24:24,229 --> 00:24:26,331
Your barber is licensed,
your massage
570
00:24:26,331 --> 00:24:28,800
therapist is licensed,
Your dentist is licensed.
571
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,103
If you are going into
a professional work environment,
572
00:24:32,103 --> 00:24:35,106
chances are there is a license
somewhere in that building.
573
00:24:35,273 --> 00:24:37,943
So they tend to be unseen.
574
00:24:37,943 --> 00:24:39,377
And so we were a little
surprised
575
00:24:39,377 --> 00:24:40,879
to find that states
that we think of
576
00:24:40,879 --> 00:24:43,582
as as a lot more personal
freedom based
577
00:24:43,582 --> 00:24:45,517
have have kind
of these high barriers
578
00:24:45,517 --> 00:24:47,853
and these states that have low
scores.
579
00:24:47,853 --> 00:24:49,721
Kansas being our lowest scoring,
580
00:24:49,721 --> 00:24:52,724
our 50th or 51st place
we include Washington D.C.
581
00:24:53,024 --> 00:24:56,795
are these places that they're
they're not necessarily
582
00:24:56,795 --> 00:25:00,332
extend out in terms
of their political environments
583
00:25:00,332 --> 00:25:03,001
or necessarily
their regulatory environment.
584
00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,270
These are places that just kind
of show up as more neutral
585
00:25:06,338 --> 00:25:07,038
in areas.
586
00:25:07,038 --> 00:25:09,875
Talk a little bit about yourself
state profiles.
587
00:25:09,875 --> 00:25:13,845
And so we're already seeing that
the Alabama ranks third,
588
00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:18,817
we are the third in terms of
most licensed, licensed state.
589
00:25:19,150 --> 00:25:22,153
But tell us a little bit
more about
590
00:25:22,587 --> 00:25:25,123
our licensing.
591
00:25:25,123 --> 00:25:25,457
Right?
592
00:25:25,457 --> 00:25:27,726
So we have state profiles
for every state.
593
00:25:27,726 --> 00:25:29,160
The the key to that is
594
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,296
we want a one page
piece of paper
595
00:25:31,296 --> 00:25:33,064
that anyone could take
to their state legislature
596
00:25:33,064 --> 00:25:33,665
and say
597
00:25:33,665 --> 00:25:34,866
this is what our occupational
598
00:25:34,866 --> 00:25:37,669
and licensing environment
looks like
599
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:39,905
compared to our region compared
nationally.
600
00:25:39,905 --> 00:25:42,641
How how about
are we on a scale of 1 to 10,
601
00:25:42,641 --> 00:25:46,044
who is our competitors
in this space?
602
00:25:46,044 --> 00:25:47,012
Who can we do better than?
603
00:25:47,012 --> 00:25:48,880
How are we compared
to our neighbors?
604
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,349
And Alabama
is kind of an interesting one.
605
00:25:51,349 --> 00:25:55,086
So we are the worst in the East
South-Central Census region.
606
00:25:55,487 --> 00:25:58,290
We are third overall
607
00:25:58,290 --> 00:26:01,726
competing with Arkansas,
Texas, Oklahoma and Washington.
608
00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:04,663
So Oklahoma and Washington are
doing slightly better than us.
609
00:26:04,663 --> 00:26:06,731
Texas and Arkansas
are doing slightly worse
610
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:09,734
and doing the worst
in terms of most barriers.
611
00:26:10,035 --> 00:26:12,337
But Alabama's
occupational licensing
612
00:26:12,337 --> 00:26:14,306
environment
is a little interesting
613
00:26:14,306 --> 00:26:16,174
because
we have so many barriers,
614
00:26:16,174 --> 00:26:18,810
but not necessarily
that many licenses.
615
00:26:18,810 --> 00:26:21,413
Our licensing score
being close to eight is high.
616
00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:22,814
But what
617
00:26:22,814 --> 00:26:23,715
happens is
618
00:26:23,715 --> 00:26:26,651
we have very broad scope of all
of these different places.
619
00:26:26,651 --> 00:26:28,587
Like I said,
you can't be an acupuncturist
620
00:26:28,587 --> 00:26:30,288
in Alabama
without being a doctor.
621
00:26:30,288 --> 00:26:31,356
So that
622
00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:35,226
physician license is barring
a lot of different occupations.
623
00:26:35,493 --> 00:26:36,861
And that's kind of
what we're seeing in
624
00:26:36,861 --> 00:26:40,265
Alabama is not necessarily
many, many unique licenses.
625
00:26:40,265 --> 00:26:42,434
We're just seeing really broad
scope to them.
626
00:26:42,434 --> 00:26:46,237
So one idea of having
this kind of deviation is
627
00:26:46,237 --> 00:26:48,006
we can get an idea of
628
00:26:48,006 --> 00:26:51,242
if there was a new occupation
to come up for licensing.
629
00:26:51,242 --> 00:26:52,711
So they started licensing
something new.
630
00:26:52,711 --> 00:26:57,015
One thing we've seen
in this most recent addition
631
00:26:57,015 --> 00:26:59,250
that we were looking at
for the 2020 for publication is
632
00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:02,687
states are starting to license
sign language, interpreters are
633
00:27:04,022 --> 00:27:07,025
with this difference in barriers
and licenses.
634
00:27:07,192 --> 00:27:08,994
It's likely
that we can kind of predict
635
00:27:08,994 --> 00:27:11,529
whether or not a state
is going to issue a new license
636
00:27:11,529 --> 00:27:15,233
or just kind of cover
those actions
637
00:27:15,233 --> 00:27:17,636
or those those processes
of that job
638
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,971
under an already
existing license.
639
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,707
So perhaps movie sign language
interpreter
640
00:27:22,707 --> 00:27:24,376
is more likely
to be incorporated
641
00:27:24,376 --> 00:27:27,212
into a license
that we already have,
642
00:27:27,212 --> 00:27:29,514
and we're just going
to put a barrier to it.
643
00:27:29,514 --> 00:27:33,451
And so then
what's our most unusual?
644
00:27:33,785 --> 00:27:37,389
Okay, so our most unusual is a
what we call a drama movement
645
00:27:37,389 --> 00:27:41,860
therapist
and a level led led abatement.
646
00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:44,162
Okay,
So that one always gets me.
647
00:27:44,162 --> 00:27:48,133
So the drug movement therapist
occupation is a more recent
648
00:27:48,133 --> 00:27:51,636
addition to the occupational
licensing environment in the US.
649
00:27:53,438 --> 00:27:56,441
These are people who are
650
00:27:57,442 --> 00:28:01,446
working through therapy, through
kind of a physical aspect.
651
00:28:01,446 --> 00:28:02,614
These aren't
physical therapists.
652
00:28:02,614 --> 00:28:04,182
These are
these are more counselors
653
00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,351
like the mental, physical side.
654
00:28:06,351 --> 00:28:09,521
And it's about play therapy.
655
00:28:09,521 --> 00:28:11,289
It's about it's about moving.
656
00:28:11,289 --> 00:28:12,157
It's not
657
00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:13,892
your traditional Freudian
sit on the couch
658
00:28:13,892 --> 00:28:16,494
and talk about your feelings,
that kind of therapy.
659
00:28:16,494 --> 00:28:19,464
It is it is a little bit
more about movement.
660
00:28:19,464 --> 00:28:24,803
And what we suspect is
this is pushed us into a space
661
00:28:25,203 --> 00:28:29,240
where the word therapist is is
662
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,777
the thing that gets us in that
in that like licensing space.
663
00:28:32,777 --> 00:28:35,113
So we think medical.
664
00:28:35,113 --> 00:28:35,947
Well,
665
00:28:35,947 --> 00:28:38,717
thanks so much for coming on
and talking to us
666
00:28:38,717 --> 00:28:39,851
about this here today.
667
00:28:39,851 --> 00:28:41,352
And thank you all
for joining us.
668
00:28:41,352 --> 00:28:44,222
Join us again next time
for another E conversations.
669
00:28:47,459 --> 00:28:49,594
This has been e conversations,
670
00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:52,931
a joint production of Troy
Church of Vision and the H.
671
00:28:52,964 --> 00:28:56,067
Johnson Center for Political
Economy at Troy University.
00:00:01,034 --> 00:00:02,235
The opinions expressed on
2
00:00:02,235 --> 00:00:04,004
this program
represent the viewpoints
3
00:00:04,004 --> 00:00:06,306
of individual authors
or contributors
4
00:00:06,306 --> 00:00:09,342
and do not necessarily reflect
those of Troy University.
5
00:00:13,179 --> 00:00:15,415
This is, in conversations
6
00:00:15,415 --> 00:00:18,852
a joint production of Troy
Trojan Vision and Emmanuel H.
7
00:00:18,885 --> 00:00:21,521
Johnson Center
for Political Economy.
8
00:00:21,521 --> 00:00:23,456
Now here's your host, Dr.
9
00:00:23,456 --> 00:00:26,459
Dan Sutter.
10
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,462
Hello
and welcome to Conversations.
11
00:00:29,462 --> 00:00:30,430
I'm your host, Dr.
12
00:00:30,430 --> 00:00:31,965
Dan Sarah of the Johnson Center
13
00:00:31,965 --> 00:00:34,567
for Political Economy
at Troy University.
14
00:00:34,567 --> 00:00:36,169
No one wants to be operated on
15
00:00:36,169 --> 00:00:38,238
by a surgeon
who didn't go to medical school
16
00:00:38,238 --> 00:00:41,241
or have their two teeth
drilled by an amateur dentist.
17
00:00:41,541 --> 00:00:43,476
We need to take in
18
00:00:43,476 --> 00:00:46,579
the expertise of specialists
in our daily lives.
19
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,582
But by definition, people
are going to lack the knowledge
20
00:00:49,582 --> 00:00:51,284
to evaluate for ourselves
21
00:00:51,284 --> 00:00:54,287
whether alleged experts
are truly competent.
22
00:00:54,387 --> 00:00:57,123
Occupational licensing
is the means by which we turn
23
00:00:57,123 --> 00:01:00,126
to government to ensure
the expertise of professionals.
24
00:01:00,527 --> 00:01:01,461
But licensing
25
00:01:01,461 --> 00:01:04,564
today extends far beyond fields
like medicine or dentistry
26
00:01:05,098 --> 00:01:08,101
and it's estimated that one
fifth of the American workforce
27
00:01:08,201 --> 00:01:10,170
now requires licensing,
28
00:01:10,170 --> 00:01:11,271
which has also been called
29
00:01:11,271 --> 00:01:13,773
the government permission
slip to work.
30
00:01:13,773 --> 00:01:16,176
How do economists
measure the extent of licensing
31
00:01:16,176 --> 00:01:17,510
in the modern workplace
32
00:01:17,510 --> 00:01:20,447
and what states license
the most occupations?
33
00:01:20,447 --> 00:01:24,284
Joining me on the conversations
today is an alum of the Johnson
34
00:01:24,284 --> 00:01:26,686
Center, Dr. Noah Trudeau.
35
00:01:26,686 --> 00:01:29,422
Noah majored in economics
at Jacksonville State before
36
00:01:29,422 --> 00:01:31,357
earning a master's
degree here at Troy
37
00:01:31,357 --> 00:01:32,959
and then going on to get a Ph.D.
38
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,995
from West Virginia University,
where he was the first of our
39
00:01:35,995 --> 00:01:39,065
Masters alums
to actually earn a Ph.D..
40
00:01:39,732 --> 00:01:41,434
Dr. Trudeau then returned to
41
00:01:41,434 --> 00:01:44,804
Troy, is a professor of data
analytics and 2023
42
00:01:45,371 --> 00:01:46,873
today
will be talking about his work
43
00:01:46,873 --> 00:01:49,142
with the Arch Bridge Institute
44
00:01:49,142 --> 00:01:52,212
on their State
Occupational Licensing Index,
45
00:01:52,445 --> 00:01:55,281
which was coauthored
with Edward Timmons.
46
00:01:55,281 --> 00:01:56,282
Welcome back to the show.
47
00:01:56,282 --> 00:01:58,251
No thanks to him.
48
00:01:58,251 --> 00:02:02,088
And so let's talk
a little bit about this project
49
00:02:02,088 --> 00:02:04,424
that you have,
just a very broad terms,
50
00:02:04,424 --> 00:02:05,658
and then we'll get into some of
51
00:02:05,658 --> 00:02:07,794
the details
by occupational licensing
52
00:02:07,794 --> 00:02:11,364
for you and tell us how you got
into being interested
53
00:02:11,364 --> 00:02:13,600
in occupational licensing
in the first place.
54
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,735
Yeah, so my interest
in occupational licensing
55
00:02:15,735 --> 00:02:17,737
actually started
when I was a student here, Troy.
56
00:02:17,737 --> 00:02:20,306
I believe we did an E
Conversations episode on it.
57
00:02:20,306 --> 00:02:23,143
I was talking about licensing
of funeral directors.
58
00:02:23,143 --> 00:02:26,212
That was my first foray
into the occupational
59
00:02:26,212 --> 00:02:27,514
licensing environment.
60
00:02:27,514 --> 00:02:31,451
I coauthored a paper with
then Professor Dan Smith,
61
00:02:31,918 --> 00:02:35,655
who is now on Middle Tennessee,
and that was
62
00:02:35,655 --> 00:02:38,825
that was my intro
into occupational licensing
63
00:02:39,058 --> 00:02:40,994
while I was a student
at West Virginia.
64
00:02:40,994 --> 00:02:45,331
That paper that I coauthored
was under went under review
65
00:02:45,331 --> 00:02:46,733
and then was eventually
published.
66
00:02:46,733 --> 00:02:48,902
And I later found out
that one of the reviewers
67
00:02:48,902 --> 00:02:52,138
was Professor Ed Timmons,
who is I'd call me.
68
00:02:52,138 --> 00:02:53,373
He's like the Godfather
69
00:02:53,373 --> 00:02:55,308
of the occupational licensing
environment.
70
00:02:55,308 --> 00:02:56,376
Ed is Ed
71
00:02:56,376 --> 00:02:59,345
is a wonderful, prolific author
in the occupational
72
00:02:59,345 --> 00:03:00,480
licensing space.
73
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,549
Now he is the director
of the new Center,
74
00:03:02,549 --> 00:03:04,184
the new Regulatory
Research Center.
75
00:03:04,184 --> 00:03:05,885
They've recently rebranded.
76
00:03:05,885 --> 00:03:07,387
They focus on
occupational licensing,
77
00:03:07,387 --> 00:03:09,989
scope of practice
and certificate of need laws.
78
00:03:09,989 --> 00:03:12,292
So they work in occupational
regulation
79
00:03:12,292 --> 00:03:14,460
across all environments.
80
00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:18,698
As I was studying at West
Virginia, I was looking to have
81
00:03:18,698 --> 00:03:23,069
a advisor and outside committee
member for my dissertation.
82
00:03:23,403 --> 00:03:26,339
So having met Ed
and becoming friends with him,
83
00:03:26,339 --> 00:03:27,473
he was he was outside of
84
00:03:27,473 --> 00:03:29,509
he was working at Saint
Francis University at the time.
85
00:03:29,509 --> 00:03:30,843
And I said, Ed, you know,
86
00:03:30,843 --> 00:03:33,246
I need an outside
and an outside committee member.
87
00:03:33,246 --> 00:03:34,314
You are the guy.
88
00:03:34,314 --> 00:03:36,349
Would you would you be willing
to sit on my committee?
89
00:03:36,349 --> 00:03:37,884
And I said, absolutely.
90
00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:40,587
You know, I'd be happy
to have you do advise on this.
91
00:03:40,587 --> 00:03:42,722
That led
to us working more together.
92
00:03:43,656 --> 00:03:47,093
And then as I was a senior
at West Virginia or a fifth year
93
00:03:47,093 --> 00:03:47,594
grad student
94
00:03:47,594 --> 00:03:51,998
looking at the job market,
I guess the center that he
95
00:03:52,232 --> 00:03:55,401
he is the director of moved
to West Virginia University.
96
00:03:55,401 --> 00:03:58,538
So we started to work
a lot more in tandem.
97
00:03:58,538 --> 00:04:01,541
And he got to know a little bit
more of my my interest.
98
00:04:01,541 --> 00:04:03,376
And one of those interests
that I have
99
00:04:03,376 --> 00:04:05,345
is with occupational licensing.
100
00:04:05,345 --> 00:04:07,146
Unlike things
like a driver's license,
101
00:04:07,146 --> 00:04:08,781
which is very standardized
across states,
102
00:04:08,781 --> 00:04:10,650
you can take your driver's
license to another state,
103
00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:12,652
you can drive your car
in other states.
104
00:04:12,652 --> 00:04:16,623
Occupational licenses
are not that simple.
105
00:04:16,656 --> 00:04:19,058
So sometimes becoming a plumber
in Alabama means
106
00:04:19,058 --> 00:04:20,526
that you can't be a plumber
in Georgia
107
00:04:20,526 --> 00:04:21,961
or you can't be a plumber
108
00:04:21,961 --> 00:04:24,430
in Florida or Mississippi
or Tennessee.
109
00:04:24,430 --> 00:04:26,766
Some states have what we call
reciprocity.
110
00:04:26,766 --> 00:04:30,003
Some states have
universal recognition.
111
00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:34,207
But one of the other things
that that kind of runs into this
112
00:04:34,207 --> 00:04:36,876
is states define occupations
slightly differently.
113
00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:38,845
So there there's
no standard definition
114
00:04:38,845 --> 00:04:41,014
for what is an electrician,
what is a
115
00:04:41,014 --> 00:04:43,049
what is a physician,
what is a dentist.
116
00:04:43,049 --> 00:04:44,183
And technically,
117
00:04:44,183 --> 00:04:47,654
there are some colloquially
understood definitions.
118
00:04:48,588 --> 00:04:51,591
But one of the complications
we run into is
119
00:04:52,125 --> 00:04:55,528
it's kind of left
up to each state how they define
120
00:04:55,595 --> 00:04:56,896
these occupations.
121
00:04:56,896 --> 00:04:59,032
And one question
that I've always had
122
00:04:59,032 --> 00:05:02,769
and Ed agreed with me
was if you were to look
123
00:05:02,769 --> 00:05:04,671
at every state
and try to kind of
124
00:05:04,671 --> 00:05:08,775
put them on a scale together
of who is the strictest
125
00:05:08,775 --> 00:05:12,612
about licensing in general,
how would you go about it and
126
00:05:13,579 --> 00:05:15,114
what ultimately
would be the results.
127
00:05:15,114 --> 00:05:16,115
So we have ideas.
128
00:05:16,115 --> 00:05:17,984
A lot of people will compare
129
00:05:17,984 --> 00:05:20,553
very like strict definition
130
00:05:20,553 --> 00:05:22,121
of occupations across,
and we can look at like
131
00:05:22,121 --> 00:05:24,824
different barriers
for an occupation.
132
00:05:24,824 --> 00:05:29,462
But we wanted a general idea
of occupation, occupational
133
00:05:29,462 --> 00:05:32,765
licensing as a whole across
all of the states.
134
00:05:33,066 --> 00:05:35,768
And so that's what we've tried
to answer with this index.
135
00:05:35,768 --> 00:05:38,538
And so we start with
136
00:05:38,538 --> 00:05:40,873
the case of people
like dentists or doctors.
137
00:05:40,873 --> 00:05:43,743
And clearly, you know,
I mean, it's a matter of life
138
00:05:43,743 --> 00:05:44,077
and death.
139
00:05:44,077 --> 00:05:46,079
If your doctor
actually knows what they did
140
00:05:46,079 --> 00:05:48,214
or if they is,
as the commercial suggests,
141
00:05:48,214 --> 00:05:51,284
they just stayed at a Holiday
Inn Express last night.
142
00:05:51,284 --> 00:05:53,720
But we've seen occupational
licensing
143
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,191
spread to a lot of other
occupations that are not nearly
144
00:05:58,524 --> 00:06:01,427
as intense professional
or the kind of thing
145
00:06:01,427 --> 00:06:04,430
that you need to go to graduate
or professional school for
146
00:06:04,464 --> 00:06:08,167
and things like even like
being a florist, as is licensed
147
00:06:08,334 --> 00:06:09,535
at least I think, in one state.
148
00:06:09,535 --> 00:06:10,036
Right. So
149
00:06:10,036 --> 00:06:13,306
tell us a little bit about this,
this spread to these other
150
00:06:14,407 --> 00:06:16,209
occupations
where you think like, well,
151
00:06:16,209 --> 00:06:18,177
maybe you need to know
something about hair
152
00:06:18,177 --> 00:06:20,380
cutting hair, but I don't know.
153
00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:21,814
Do you really need to go to
154
00:06:21,814 --> 00:06:25,251
a lot of training
to try and become a barber?
155
00:06:25,718 --> 00:06:26,152
Right.
156
00:06:26,152 --> 00:06:28,788
So the rationale
for occupational licensing
157
00:06:28,788 --> 00:06:32,091
is it's exclusively thought of
in the service aspect.
158
00:06:32,425 --> 00:06:35,228
You can't verify
the quality of a service
159
00:06:35,228 --> 00:06:37,764
until you've received
that service.
160
00:06:37,764 --> 00:06:40,733
And so you'd really like to know
that your brain surgeon
161
00:06:40,733 --> 00:06:42,802
is going to perform
a really good job
162
00:06:42,802 --> 00:06:43,569
because you don't want to wait
163
00:06:43,569 --> 00:06:44,437
until after you've
164
00:06:44,437 --> 00:06:47,507
had brain surgery to find out
that the brain surgeon
165
00:06:47,507 --> 00:06:49,475
did not know
exactly what they were doing.
166
00:06:49,475 --> 00:06:50,843
In that case,
167
00:06:50,843 --> 00:06:53,713
it is very much life or death
or similar. This is spread
168
00:06:53,713 --> 00:06:55,615
it's spread through
the medical profession. So
169
00:06:56,549 --> 00:06:58,785
in the
early 20th century, early
170
00:06:58,785 --> 00:07:02,555
1900s, occupational licensing
was about 5% of occupations.
171
00:07:02,555 --> 00:07:04,323
It was mostly
in the medical fields.
172
00:07:04,323 --> 00:07:07,627
One of the first places
that it was spread was actually
173
00:07:07,627 --> 00:07:09,562
talked about
by Milton Friedman in the paper.
174
00:07:09,562 --> 00:07:12,832
It was the spread
from physicians to dentists.
175
00:07:13,332 --> 00:07:18,037
And Friedman argued
that dentists are not as are
176
00:07:18,471 --> 00:07:21,974
needing of that verification
as potentially your
177
00:07:21,974 --> 00:07:25,411
your cardiac doctor or
your brain surgeon or whomever,
178
00:07:25,878 --> 00:07:28,881
and then begin to
just proliferate and do kind of
179
00:07:28,948 --> 00:07:32,618
we kind of see occupations
with similar scope
180
00:07:33,052 --> 00:07:36,589
spread
or we see it as a reaction
181
00:07:36,589 --> 00:07:40,993
to not necessarily tragedy,
but possible accidents.
182
00:07:40,993 --> 00:07:44,864
We see things like barbers
become licensed after outbreaks
183
00:07:44,864 --> 00:07:47,867
of what they call barber's itch,
which is an infection
184
00:07:47,867 --> 00:07:51,537
that you can get from poorly
cleaned barber instruments.
185
00:07:51,904 --> 00:07:55,775
One of our other Johnson Center
alums,
186
00:07:55,775 --> 00:07:58,945
Shawn Alvarez, has done
a paper on the barber's itch
187
00:07:58,945 --> 00:08:02,915
and how that is spread through
why we see barber licensure.
188
00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:05,718
But that
189
00:08:05,718 --> 00:08:08,621
that occupational license
presence spreads and spreads
190
00:08:08,621 --> 00:08:12,792
and some of attributed it
to special interests.
191
00:08:12,792 --> 00:08:16,596
So if you have a collected group
of individuals
192
00:08:16,596 --> 00:08:19,599
who want to extract rents
from the people around them,
193
00:08:19,899 --> 00:08:22,068
if you can get the government
to issue a license,
194
00:08:22,068 --> 00:08:24,170
then you are going to restrict
competition.
195
00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:26,639
Some people think of it
as just a miss
196
00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:30,376
misinterpreted
public safety issue.
197
00:08:30,443 --> 00:08:32,445
So things like barbers,
198
00:08:32,445 --> 00:08:34,046
you don't want your barber
to accidentally cut you
199
00:08:34,046 --> 00:08:36,215
and you actually get
an infection.
200
00:08:36,215 --> 00:08:37,750
Things like funeral directors,
201
00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:40,753
you don't want someone
to accidentally
202
00:08:40,887 --> 00:08:45,157
mistakenly embalm someone or
cause an accident in that space.
203
00:08:45,625 --> 00:08:49,328
And then in the case of florist,
Louisiana has actually has
204
00:08:49,328 --> 00:08:50,162
a florist license
205
00:08:50,162 --> 00:08:53,199
and that is that has come
through generations
206
00:08:53,199 --> 00:08:54,934
and generations of reasoning.
207
00:08:54,934 --> 00:08:58,504
So the Louisiana Foreign florist
license goes back,
208
00:08:58,504 --> 00:09:01,507
I believe, to the late 1800s,
209
00:09:01,574 --> 00:09:04,443
and it has a little bit
of special interest background,
210
00:09:04,443 --> 00:09:06,846
but that is currently
going to a district court.
211
00:09:06,846 --> 00:09:08,981
So we'll see if Louisiana's
florist license
212
00:09:08,981 --> 00:09:10,950
makes it
through the end of 2024.
213
00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:12,718
And then there is
another element.
214
00:09:12,718 --> 00:09:13,853
If you're one of the
215
00:09:13,853 --> 00:09:16,055
practitioners in a field
like this,
216
00:09:16,055 --> 00:09:18,257
reputation
is necessarily collective.
217
00:09:18,257 --> 00:09:22,562
And so if there are some people
calling themselves, you know,
218
00:09:23,095 --> 00:09:26,132
massage therapists,
but they're actually sort of
219
00:09:26,132 --> 00:09:28,601
like sexual predators
or something like that,
220
00:09:28,601 --> 00:09:32,371
you know, any
but a handful of of bad actors
221
00:09:32,371 --> 00:09:36,042
could cast a really bad light
on others working in this space.
222
00:09:36,042 --> 00:09:38,878
And so, you know,
you can sort of understand like
223
00:09:38,878 --> 00:09:41,347
there is some
collective interest in this
224
00:09:41,347 --> 00:09:43,282
and trying to make sure
that people don't
225
00:09:43,282 --> 00:09:47,219
bring disgrace or disrepute
to your your field,
226
00:09:47,219 --> 00:09:50,523
even though you yourself
are a respected practitioner.
227
00:09:50,690 --> 00:09:51,657
Right. Absolutely.
228
00:09:51,657 --> 00:09:55,795
So most people would see me
as somebody who is anti
229
00:09:55,795 --> 00:09:56,696
occupational
230
00:09:56,696 --> 00:09:58,397
just based on
on working on things like this
231
00:09:58,397 --> 00:10:02,401
index, working on some papers
where I try to point out the
232
00:10:03,536 --> 00:10:07,206
overreaching of
official licensing occasionally.
233
00:10:07,506 --> 00:10:10,977
But I see myself as someone
who is just advocating for
234
00:10:11,344 --> 00:10:14,347
a little bit
more of a rational approach to
235
00:10:14,647 --> 00:10:18,351
what needs to be licensed is
what is the extent of harm
236
00:10:18,351 --> 00:10:19,418
that can be done,
237
00:10:19,418 --> 00:10:20,519
What is
238
00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:23,956
what is the cost of actually
putting this barrier in place?
239
00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:27,560
Because occupational licensing
is what we call a barrier to
240
00:10:27,827 --> 00:10:29,028
barrier to entry.
241
00:10:29,028 --> 00:10:33,265
If you want to become a barber,
you have to become licensed.
242
00:10:33,265 --> 00:10:34,500
I mean, you have to go
to barbers,
243
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:35,768
barbers, college
or a barber school.
244
00:10:35,768 --> 00:10:36,969
You have to
do an apprenticeship.
245
00:10:36,969 --> 00:10:39,672
You have to be able to pay the
legitimate cost of the license.
246
00:10:39,672 --> 00:10:41,907
You have to pay for your fee.
247
00:10:41,907 --> 00:10:43,409
You have to pay,
you know, every year
248
00:10:43,409 --> 00:10:45,311
to have that license renewed.
249
00:10:45,311 --> 00:10:48,814
Those are all
some very incredible costs
250
00:10:48,814 --> 00:10:50,049
in terms of time.
251
00:10:50,049 --> 00:10:53,819
So what ends up happening
is with a lot of this licensing,
252
00:10:53,819 --> 00:10:55,821
the unseen cost
253
00:10:55,821 --> 00:10:58,624
is the cost of people
that do not pursue these jobs
254
00:10:58,624 --> 00:11:02,061
because they don't have that
time or the money or the ability
255
00:11:02,395 --> 00:11:07,767
to go to college to
take out a loan to do these
256
00:11:08,134 --> 00:11:12,104
these specific requirements
for this license.
257
00:11:12,104 --> 00:11:14,640
And that really hinders
economic mobility,
258
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,076
occasionally hinders
physical mobility.
259
00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:18,177
People people choose
260
00:11:18,177 --> 00:11:18,778
not to move
261
00:11:18,778 --> 00:11:20,846
to a new state or something
because they can't
262
00:11:20,846 --> 00:11:22,648
take their license with them.
263
00:11:22,648 --> 00:11:24,917
So we worry about those.
264
00:11:24,917 --> 00:11:27,219
And there are also other ways,
265
00:11:27,219 --> 00:11:28,521
and that's something
we're going to talk about.
266
00:11:28,521 --> 00:11:31,357
There are also some
other alternatives to licensing.
267
00:11:31,357 --> 00:11:34,627
And you mentioned in the study,
but you're not tracking them
268
00:11:34,627 --> 00:11:36,996
with a certification
registration.
269
00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:38,197
So, you know,
270
00:11:38,197 --> 00:11:41,967
there might be some less onerous
alternatives
271
00:11:41,967 --> 00:11:42,868
that could still help
272
00:11:43,869 --> 00:11:46,505
assure members of the
public that somebody who says
273
00:11:46,505 --> 00:11:47,573
that they're like, for instance,
274
00:11:47,573 --> 00:11:51,811
a CPA is certainly
a certified public accountant.
275
00:11:51,844 --> 00:11:52,144
Right.
276
00:11:52,144 --> 00:11:53,646
And so there are
277
00:11:53,646 --> 00:11:56,315
things like certification
that that could be alternatives.
278
00:11:56,315 --> 00:11:56,615
Right.
279
00:11:56,615 --> 00:11:57,083
We say that
280
00:11:57,083 --> 00:12:00,352
licensing is the most onerous
or the most strict
281
00:12:00,352 --> 00:12:03,355
form of regulation
or verification of quality.
282
00:12:03,389 --> 00:12:05,191
And the consequences
of practicing
283
00:12:05,191 --> 00:12:07,660
without a license
are the harshest you can.
284
00:12:07,660 --> 00:12:10,596
You can serve actual jail
time for practicing
285
00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:11,530
without a license.
286
00:12:11,530 --> 00:12:16,469
So it is it is incredibly
onerous in terms of the cost of
287
00:12:16,535 --> 00:12:19,905
what happens if you do not have
that verification.
288
00:12:20,406 --> 00:12:24,076
And then the way that these
standards get developed
289
00:12:24,143 --> 00:12:28,514
usually is that the state
allows a board of practitioners
290
00:12:28,814 --> 00:12:29,682
to be formed
291
00:12:29,682 --> 00:12:31,751
and then they're going
to actually set like,
292
00:12:31,751 --> 00:12:34,687
okay, why do you have to
actually do to become a barber?
293
00:12:34,687 --> 00:12:35,788
And that's one of the areas
294
00:12:35,788 --> 00:12:38,791
where, well, once
you're empowering that board,
295
00:12:38,858 --> 00:12:42,995
they can always sort of increase
those barriers.
296
00:12:42,995 --> 00:12:46,465
You actually create a barrier
as opposed to simply something
297
00:12:46,465 --> 00:12:49,235
that would be
rationally connected to, okay,
298
00:12:49,235 --> 00:12:52,671
if you're going to perform as
a professional in this field,
299
00:12:52,838 --> 00:12:54,707
what do you actually need
to know? Right.
300
00:12:54,707 --> 00:12:57,710
So we have we have professionals
who already have that license
301
00:12:57,943 --> 00:12:59,712
choosing the bar.
302
00:12:59,712 --> 00:13:02,448
You have to jump over, right,
to obtain that license.
303
00:13:02,448 --> 00:13:05,417
And so that that becomes
an ethical question as well.
304
00:13:05,417 --> 00:13:07,953
And we've seen cases
go to the Supreme Court
305
00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,756
where professionals
have extended
306
00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:12,158
the scope of their licenses.
307
00:13:12,158 --> 00:13:13,392
North Carolina,
308
00:13:13,392 --> 00:13:17,029
the North Carolina dentists
decided in 2013
309
00:13:17,029 --> 00:13:19,198
that teeth whitening
counted as dentistry.
310
00:13:19,198 --> 00:13:23,269
So where everything from these
like strip mall teeth whitening
311
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:25,604
companies to
they sent cease and desist
312
00:13:25,604 --> 00:13:28,140
letters to the companies
where you could do the teeth
313
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:30,876
whitening yourself
with the teeth whitening strips.
314
00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:35,381
So we see overreach sometimes
bad actors in that case.
315
00:13:36,615 --> 00:13:38,217
All right. So
316
00:13:38,217 --> 00:13:41,821
you've put together this index
along with the ad champions.
317
00:13:41,821 --> 00:13:45,024
And so let's just talk
to a little bit
318
00:13:45,024 --> 00:13:47,059
of what you had to do to
to do this.
319
00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:51,964
And you looked at hundreds
of occupations.
320
00:13:51,964 --> 00:13:56,035
But, you know, let's start
with what exactly
321
00:13:56,035 --> 00:13:59,839
you do to construct this index
That could be used by economists
322
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:03,309
and other researchers
to help study this phenomenon.
323
00:14:03,943 --> 00:14:04,276
Right.
324
00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:08,614
So as I mentioned before, states
don't necessarily
325
00:14:08,614 --> 00:14:09,915
define occupations.
326
00:14:09,915 --> 00:14:10,916
Similarly,
327
00:14:10,916 --> 00:14:13,118
we all colloquially
as individuals,
328
00:14:13,118 --> 00:14:14,954
we have an idea of what it means
to be a dentist,
329
00:14:14,954 --> 00:14:17,056
what it means to be a doctor,
what it means to be a barber,
330
00:14:17,056 --> 00:14:20,025
a massage therapist,
florist, etc.
331
00:14:20,226 --> 00:14:24,096
The Regulatory Research center
keeps a database on commonly
332
00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:27,967
used and occasionally not
so commonly licensed occupations
333
00:14:28,267 --> 00:14:29,735
by the occupation title.
334
00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:32,271
So everything
335
00:14:32,271 --> 00:14:37,776
from general contractor
to fighter timekeeper
336
00:14:37,810 --> 00:14:40,813
for for for a boxing match.
337
00:14:42,147 --> 00:14:44,183
Using that database,
338
00:14:44,183 --> 00:14:47,586
we looked at approximately 330
339
00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:50,656
occupations that are licensed
in at least one state.
340
00:14:51,123 --> 00:14:54,126
And we wanted to see
341
00:14:54,793 --> 00:14:57,796
if a state
had a specific license for that,
342
00:14:57,796 --> 00:15:00,165
like a named license
for that occupation,
343
00:15:00,165 --> 00:15:02,801
or if a state had a license
that would bar
344
00:15:02,801 --> 00:15:05,137
the practice of that occupation
somehow,
345
00:15:05,137 --> 00:15:08,140
which is best illustrated
by Alabama, in my opinion,
346
00:15:08,507 --> 00:15:11,477
acupuncturists in some states.
347
00:15:12,444 --> 00:15:14,380
So if you want to get
the needling done
348
00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:18,484
for medical purposes,
traditional, it is a descendant
349
00:15:18,484 --> 00:15:21,086
of traditional Chinese medicine
in Alabama.
350
00:15:21,086 --> 00:15:23,188
You cannot have
an acupuncturist license.
351
00:15:23,188 --> 00:15:25,424
You cannot practice acupuncture
352
00:15:25,424 --> 00:15:29,495
without being a doctor,
without being a physician.
353
00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:31,630
So you have to go to medical
school,
354
00:15:31,630 --> 00:15:33,265
you have to become a doctor,
355
00:15:33,265 --> 00:15:35,267
and then you can
practice acupuncture.
356
00:15:35,267 --> 00:15:38,270
So any acupuncturist
that you see in Alabama
357
00:15:38,304 --> 00:15:41,240
doing true acupuncture
advertises as acupuncture.
358
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,243
You can rest assured
that they are doctors
359
00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:47,079
in some states
such as South Carolina, though
360
00:15:47,079 --> 00:15:48,914
they actually have
an acupuncture license.
361
00:15:48,914 --> 00:15:50,449
So instead of going
and becoming a doctor,
362
00:15:50,449 --> 00:15:51,583
you can get a bachelor's
363
00:15:51,583 --> 00:15:54,620
degree
in physical therapy physiology.
364
00:15:54,987 --> 00:15:57,990
A little bit of
continuing education credits,
365
00:15:58,090 --> 00:15:59,391
maybe a special training,
366
00:15:59,391 --> 00:16:01,126
and you could become
an acupuncturist.
367
00:16:01,126 --> 00:16:04,129
So in this case, we see where
occupational licensing,
368
00:16:04,496 --> 00:16:07,166
another license
isn't necessarily a bad thing.
369
00:16:07,166 --> 00:16:08,934
So if someone wants to become
an acupuncturist
370
00:16:08,934 --> 00:16:11,136
in Alabama,
it's incredibly costly,
371
00:16:11,136 --> 00:16:13,305
but it's a little less costly
to do so in South Carolina.
372
00:16:14,306 --> 00:16:16,875
So we look at
373
00:16:16,875 --> 00:16:20,713
just whether or not states
have this license specifically
374
00:16:21,013 --> 00:16:22,748
and whether or not they have
what we call a barrier.
375
00:16:22,748 --> 00:16:26,218
So that would be
is is barred by something
376
00:16:27,586 --> 00:16:29,154
that is not that title.
377
00:16:29,154 --> 00:16:32,791
We see this happen with
some electrical occupations.
378
00:16:33,092 --> 00:16:34,360
So some states have just
379
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,729
an electrician license
and that means that you can do
380
00:16:36,729 --> 00:16:40,599
any any electric in electrician
based things.
381
00:16:40,599 --> 00:16:41,834
You can even run wires,
you could do
382
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:43,635
residential,
you could do commercial,
383
00:16:43,635 --> 00:16:47,439
you can do like heavy machinery,
electrical, electrical work.
384
00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:50,109
There are sign electricians.
385
00:16:50,109 --> 00:16:51,210
So some states actually have
386
00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:53,379
a specific sign
electrician license
387
00:16:53,379 --> 00:16:56,382
and some states divvy up
more than just electrician.
388
00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:59,685
They have a list of different
types of electricians.
389
00:16:59,685 --> 00:17:02,254
And if you want to be more
than one type of electrician,
390
00:17:02,254 --> 00:17:03,989
you have to get additional
license also.
391
00:17:03,989 --> 00:17:07,326
So in that case, so a state
where they would just have
392
00:17:07,526 --> 00:17:08,360
an electrician
393
00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:11,363
license would only have one
named license for electrician.
394
00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:13,399
But that's going to bar
a lot of these different
395
00:17:13,399 --> 00:17:15,768
occupational titles
that we that we have.
396
00:17:15,768 --> 00:17:19,038
So we wanted to get an idea
of not necessarily
397
00:17:19,038 --> 00:17:22,474
just how many title licenses
you have,
398
00:17:22,808 --> 00:17:26,478
but how many occupational titles
does that stop
399
00:17:26,612 --> 00:17:27,913
you from getting into.
400
00:17:27,913 --> 00:17:28,814
And so we created this
401
00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:31,483
nomenclature of barriers
versus licenses.
402
00:17:31,483 --> 00:17:35,754
So barriers is a measure
of how difficult it is
403
00:17:35,754 --> 00:17:39,024
to just get into one of these
like, license occupations.
404
00:17:39,358 --> 00:17:42,528
Gives a general overview of how
405
00:17:42,795 --> 00:17:44,430
how many walls
you were putting up
406
00:17:44,430 --> 00:17:48,534
or how many how many spaces in
each of these 300 occupations.
407
00:17:48,867 --> 00:17:50,135
How many
408
00:17:50,135 --> 00:17:53,405
are you trying to stop people
from just easily getting into?
409
00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:57,476
I, I mean, licenses
gives us an idea of kind
410
00:17:57,476 --> 00:17:59,445
of the bureaucratic
aspect of it.
411
00:17:59,445 --> 00:18:02,481
So more licenses means more
boards, means more paperwork.
412
00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:08,120
It could mean
more just money involved.
413
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,123
So you talk about fees
and processing.
414
00:18:11,557 --> 00:18:14,526
You talk about
just like steps of approval.
415
00:18:14,726 --> 00:18:17,563
So so
the number of total licenses
416
00:18:18,530 --> 00:18:21,533
gives us an idea in that space.
417
00:18:21,567 --> 00:18:23,569
And so ultimately, we rank
418
00:18:23,569 --> 00:18:25,304
the states
based on our distribution.
419
00:18:25,304 --> 00:18:26,738
30 occupations.
420
00:18:26,738 --> 00:18:28,841
How many do you have
a barrier for
421
00:18:28,841 --> 00:18:32,311
and how many total licenses do
you have for that?
422
00:18:32,311 --> 00:18:34,413
Many various.
423
00:18:34,413 --> 00:18:36,915
And these were some of the ones
down at the bottom of the list.
424
00:18:36,915 --> 00:18:41,286
So these are some professions
licensed in just one state.
425
00:18:41,286 --> 00:18:45,157
So you get into some
pretty specific things
426
00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:46,058
that get rolled out.
427
00:18:46,058 --> 00:18:49,428
Everybody give me a sense
of just exactly how far.
428
00:18:49,595 --> 00:18:49,828
I mean,
429
00:18:49,828 --> 00:18:50,462
you might
430
00:18:50,462 --> 00:18:53,198
already have a license,
over 300 different occupation.
431
00:18:53,198 --> 00:18:57,002
It's you're extending pretty
broad and pretty far across
432
00:18:57,002 --> 00:18:58,704
the economy. Right.
433
00:18:58,704 --> 00:19:01,039
So we we get into some
434
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:03,108
what we call uniquely license
occupations.
435
00:19:03,108 --> 00:19:05,644
One of the features of the index
is for every state we talk
436
00:19:05,644 --> 00:19:07,713
about their most uniquely
license occupation,
437
00:19:07,713 --> 00:19:11,116
which is the occupation that
that state has a license for.
438
00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:12,584
That is the fewest
439
00:19:12,584 --> 00:19:14,086
that or the fewest the
440
00:19:14,086 --> 00:19:16,989
the farthest down the list in
terms of total total licenses.
441
00:19:16,989 --> 00:19:19,525
So things like the lightning
protection contractor
442
00:19:19,525 --> 00:19:20,859
is licensed in Rhode Island.
443
00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:25,097
Rhode Island has a specific
electrician ish license
444
00:19:25,097 --> 00:19:26,398
where
if you were going to install
445
00:19:26,398 --> 00:19:28,433
lightning
rods or lightning protection,
446
00:19:28,433 --> 00:19:29,601
you must have a license.
447
00:19:29,601 --> 00:19:32,938
In a lot of states
that may fall under
448
00:19:32,938 --> 00:19:34,506
an unlicensed profession.
449
00:19:34,506 --> 00:19:37,176
But Rhode
Island has it. Specifically.
450
00:19:37,176 --> 00:19:39,912
We also have things
like nutritionist, assistant,
451
00:19:39,912 --> 00:19:41,580
which is licensed
in New Mexico,
452
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:43,315
I believe we're going to rename
that one this year.
453
00:19:43,315 --> 00:19:46,385
I think they renamed it recently
to nutritionist, associate.
454
00:19:46,818 --> 00:19:49,888
New Mexico Care is very much
about their nutrition
455
00:19:49,888 --> 00:19:50,656
based occupations.
456
00:19:50,656 --> 00:19:52,791
They have dietitians,
nutritionist,
457
00:19:52,791 --> 00:19:55,694
dietitian, nutritionist
and nutritionist, associates.
458
00:19:55,694 --> 00:19:56,795
They have four different
459
00:19:56,795 --> 00:19:58,263
occupations in that space
460
00:19:58,263 --> 00:20:00,232
where some states
just have nutritionists.
461
00:20:00,232 --> 00:20:02,734
So we we try to illustrate.
462
00:20:02,734 --> 00:20:05,337
And the point of these
is to show
463
00:20:05,337 --> 00:20:07,539
at least
the legislators in those states,
464
00:20:07,539 --> 00:20:09,741
hey, this is something you're
doing that no one else is.
465
00:20:09,741 --> 00:20:14,279
And if that's the case,
maybe you aren't in the right
466
00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:16,148
like you're like
you go with the flow.
467
00:20:16,148 --> 00:20:19,785
You know, 50, 50 other states
are like to do this as well.
468
00:20:19,785 --> 00:20:21,820
That's that's not the worst.
469
00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:23,288
Like everybody
has the expectation
470
00:20:23,288 --> 00:20:24,523
that you might have a license.
471
00:20:24,523 --> 00:20:27,259
But if you're Louisiana
and you license florists,
472
00:20:27,259 --> 00:20:30,262
that's a little
that's a little odd. So.
473
00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:31,230
Well, now
474
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:34,399
then you have to create
a numerical index, right?
475
00:20:34,433 --> 00:20:36,802
So it could be, especially
since we as economists
476
00:20:36,802 --> 00:20:40,305
like to do statistical analysis
or regression analysis.
477
00:20:40,305 --> 00:20:43,675
And so you need to have
an index was what you did here.
478
00:20:43,942 --> 00:20:46,044
So we just did
a simple normalization.
479
00:20:46,044 --> 00:20:48,847
We took the state
that is the worst at that thing,
480
00:20:48,847 --> 00:20:49,715
quote unquote worst.
481
00:20:49,715 --> 00:20:51,984
Those state
with the most barriers
482
00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:54,152
or the most licenses,
we do it for each.
483
00:20:54,152 --> 00:20:56,255
And then we look at the state
that had the least.
484
00:20:56,255 --> 00:21:01,260
And so we say on a scale of 0
to 10 or 1 to 10, 1 to 10,
485
00:21:01,526 --> 00:21:05,664
your your
486
00:21:05,864 --> 00:21:07,199
if you are the one
487
00:21:07,199 --> 00:21:09,668
who has the most licenses
or the most barriers,
488
00:21:09,668 --> 00:21:11,003
we're going to write you a ten.
489
00:21:11,003 --> 00:21:12,971
And if you're the one that is
the the least,
490
00:21:12,971 --> 00:21:14,406
we're going to rate you a one.
491
00:21:14,406 --> 00:21:14,706
And then
492
00:21:14,706 --> 00:21:18,210
everybody fits on that scale
somewhere between one and ten.
493
00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:21,513
And that way it also easily
communicates kind of
494
00:21:22,114 --> 00:21:23,382
what you fall on the pack.
495
00:21:23,382 --> 00:21:24,483
So if you're
following it to five,
496
00:21:24,483 --> 00:21:25,751
that means you're
right in the middle,
497
00:21:25,751 --> 00:21:26,885
in four and close to ten.
498
00:21:26,885 --> 00:21:28,487
That means that you're
you're one of the worse
499
00:21:28,487 --> 00:21:30,088
If you're following
really close to one,
500
00:21:30,088 --> 00:21:31,323
that means
you're one of the best.
501
00:21:31,323 --> 00:21:35,527
So the idea is just the higher
your number, the more barriers
502
00:21:35,527 --> 00:21:36,395
or the more licenses.
503
00:21:36,395 --> 00:21:40,832
And then just you have
some numbers there to illustrate
504
00:21:40,832 --> 00:21:43,835
and you happen to have Alabama
so we can show this here.
505
00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:48,573
So Alabama is actually pretty
near the top in terms of
506
00:21:49,675 --> 00:21:51,009
having the most variance.
507
00:21:51,009 --> 00:21:52,678
And the two mentioned you
mentioned
508
00:21:52,678 --> 00:21:54,513
is like 330 different things.
509
00:21:54,513 --> 00:21:57,516
Not all, fortunately.
510
00:21:57,582 --> 00:21:59,284
No state, no licenses.
511
00:21:59,284 --> 00:22:02,287
Three means all to all 330.
512
00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:04,523
I believe
Arkansas is our first place.
513
00:22:04,523 --> 00:22:06,191
As of last year,
it was Arkansas, Texas
514
00:22:06,191 --> 00:22:09,194
and then Alabama,
I believe, in terms of barriers.
515
00:22:09,194 --> 00:22:12,364
So I think Arkansas, of the 330,
516
00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:16,101
we have somewhere around
230, 240 barriers.
517
00:22:16,368 --> 00:22:20,405
So even in the 330, we're no
one's getting close to like 300.
518
00:22:20,906 --> 00:22:24,576
And in the other hand,
nobody's less than 147, right?
519
00:22:24,576 --> 00:22:25,544
So yeah,
520
00:22:25,544 --> 00:22:27,379
there's
nobody that isn't licensing
521
00:22:27,379 --> 00:22:29,481
and there's nobody
that's licensing all of these.
522
00:22:29,481 --> 00:22:33,785
So we're really talking
about on a scale of 147 to 247,
523
00:22:33,785 --> 00:22:39,291
there's about 100 200 barriers
of flexibility in there. And
524
00:22:40,292 --> 00:22:41,226
so now we can take
525
00:22:41,226 --> 00:22:42,361
take a look at which are the
526
00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:45,197
the states
that score the highest,
527
00:22:45,197 --> 00:22:47,432
which in this case
would be worse if you think or
528
00:22:47,432 --> 00:22:48,667
or let's face it.
529
00:22:48,667 --> 00:22:51,570
Yes they they lie
they license the most Yes.
530
00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:54,272
In the states
that license the lease. Yes.
531
00:22:54,272 --> 00:22:56,108
So what we found was Arkansas,
Texas
532
00:22:56,108 --> 00:22:57,776
and Alabama
have the most barriers.
533
00:22:57,776 --> 00:22:59,911
So out of all of these
different occupations,
534
00:22:59,911 --> 00:23:02,914
there is something stopping you
from practicing.
535
00:23:03,615 --> 00:23:04,950
Our friends in Arkansas,
536
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:07,085
the Arkansas Center
for Research
537
00:23:07,085 --> 00:23:09,187
and Economics, took a really,
really big interest in this.
538
00:23:09,187 --> 00:23:10,489
And they've helped us
539
00:23:10,489 --> 00:23:13,625
delve into what some of these
these barriers are looking like
540
00:23:13,625 --> 00:23:16,261
and why Arkansas is listed
as number one.
541
00:23:16,261 --> 00:23:17,662
One thing that we found
542
00:23:17,662 --> 00:23:19,698
interesting about
this is these are states,
543
00:23:19,698 --> 00:23:22,501
these top five, Arkansas, Texas,
Alabama, Oklahoma
544
00:23:22,501 --> 00:23:23,635
and Washington.
545
00:23:23,635 --> 00:23:26,104
Well, at least like those top 40
we think of these is like
546
00:23:26,104 --> 00:23:29,908
very like economically
liberal states.
547
00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:33,412
These are these are promoting
like personal freedoms.
548
00:23:33,779 --> 00:23:37,449
These are traditionally more
economically liberal states.
549
00:23:37,449 --> 00:23:37,849
These are
550
00:23:37,849 --> 00:23:39,017
these are places
that you wouldn't
551
00:23:39,017 --> 00:23:41,787
necessarily expect
this this type of behavior.
552
00:23:43,488 --> 00:23:45,457
Whereas
states that when I asked people
553
00:23:45,457 --> 00:23:49,995
they think New York, California,
like more or more regulatory
554
00:23:49,995 --> 00:23:51,897
heavy states generally,
555
00:23:51,897 --> 00:23:54,900
which end up I think
California falls in number 11.
556
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:57,002
New York falls a lot closer
to the middle of the pack,
557
00:23:57,002 --> 00:23:59,037
somewhere between 25 and 30.
558
00:23:59,037 --> 00:24:03,708
It's a little unusual
because these are kind of like
559
00:24:03,708 --> 00:24:04,409
unseen costs.
560
00:24:04,409 --> 00:24:05,310
So these are things that people
561
00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:08,313
don't usually actively
think about when we say,
562
00:24:08,346 --> 00:24:11,516
you know, 20
more than 20% of the US
563
00:24:11,550 --> 00:24:13,652
workforce
has an occupational license,
564
00:24:13,652 --> 00:24:15,287
that means that someone you know
565
00:24:15,287 --> 00:24:17,189
has a license
for their occupation.
566
00:24:17,189 --> 00:24:20,225
I did a of a trip
with some students yesterday
567
00:24:20,225 --> 00:24:23,028
and they were talking to some
insurance insurance brokers.
568
00:24:23,028 --> 00:24:24,229
They are licensed,
569
00:24:24,229 --> 00:24:26,331
Your barber is licensed,
your massage
570
00:24:26,331 --> 00:24:28,800
therapist is licensed,
Your dentist is licensed.
571
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,103
If you are going into
a professional work environment,
572
00:24:32,103 --> 00:24:35,106
chances are there is a license
somewhere in that building.
573
00:24:35,273 --> 00:24:37,943
So they tend to be unseen.
574
00:24:37,943 --> 00:24:39,377
And so we were a little
surprised
575
00:24:39,377 --> 00:24:40,879
to find that states
that we think of
576
00:24:40,879 --> 00:24:43,582
as as a lot more personal
freedom based
577
00:24:43,582 --> 00:24:45,517
have have kind
of these high barriers
578
00:24:45,517 --> 00:24:47,853
and these states that have low
scores.
579
00:24:47,853 --> 00:24:49,721
Kansas being our lowest scoring,
580
00:24:49,721 --> 00:24:52,724
our 50th or 51st place
we include Washington D.C.
581
00:24:53,024 --> 00:24:56,795
are these places that they're
they're not necessarily
582
00:24:56,795 --> 00:25:00,332
extend out in terms
of their political environments
583
00:25:00,332 --> 00:25:03,001
or necessarily
their regulatory environment.
584
00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,270
These are places that just kind
of show up as more neutral
585
00:25:06,338 --> 00:25:07,038
in areas.
586
00:25:07,038 --> 00:25:09,875
Talk a little bit about yourself
state profiles.
587
00:25:09,875 --> 00:25:13,845
And so we're already seeing that
the Alabama ranks third,
588
00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:18,817
we are the third in terms of
most licensed, licensed state.
589
00:25:19,150 --> 00:25:22,153
But tell us a little bit
more about
590
00:25:22,587 --> 00:25:25,123
our licensing.
591
00:25:25,123 --> 00:25:25,457
Right?
592
00:25:25,457 --> 00:25:27,726
So we have state profiles
for every state.
593
00:25:27,726 --> 00:25:29,160
The the key to that is
594
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,296
we want a one page
piece of paper
595
00:25:31,296 --> 00:25:33,064
that anyone could take
to their state legislature
596
00:25:33,064 --> 00:25:33,665
and say
597
00:25:33,665 --> 00:25:34,866
this is what our occupational
598
00:25:34,866 --> 00:25:37,669
and licensing environment
looks like
599
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:39,905
compared to our region compared
nationally.
600
00:25:39,905 --> 00:25:42,641
How how about
are we on a scale of 1 to 10,
601
00:25:42,641 --> 00:25:46,044
who is our competitors
in this space?
602
00:25:46,044 --> 00:25:47,012
Who can we do better than?
603
00:25:47,012 --> 00:25:48,880
How are we compared
to our neighbors?
604
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,349
And Alabama
is kind of an interesting one.
605
00:25:51,349 --> 00:25:55,086
So we are the worst in the East
South-Central Census region.
606
00:25:55,487 --> 00:25:58,290
We are third overall
607
00:25:58,290 --> 00:26:01,726
competing with Arkansas,
Texas, Oklahoma and Washington.
608
00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:04,663
So Oklahoma and Washington are
doing slightly better than us.
609
00:26:04,663 --> 00:26:06,731
Texas and Arkansas
are doing slightly worse
610
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:09,734
and doing the worst
in terms of most barriers.
611
00:26:10,035 --> 00:26:12,337
But Alabama's
occupational licensing
612
00:26:12,337 --> 00:26:14,306
environment
is a little interesting
613
00:26:14,306 --> 00:26:16,174
because
we have so many barriers,
614
00:26:16,174 --> 00:26:18,810
but not necessarily
that many licenses.
615
00:26:18,810 --> 00:26:21,413
Our licensing score
being close to eight is high.
616
00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:22,814
But what
617
00:26:22,814 --> 00:26:23,715
happens is
618
00:26:23,715 --> 00:26:26,651
we have very broad scope of all
of these different places.
619
00:26:26,651 --> 00:26:28,587
Like I said,
you can't be an acupuncturist
620
00:26:28,587 --> 00:26:30,288
in Alabama
without being a doctor.
621
00:26:30,288 --> 00:26:31,356
So that
622
00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:35,226
physician license is barring
a lot of different occupations.
623
00:26:35,493 --> 00:26:36,861
And that's kind of
what we're seeing in
624
00:26:36,861 --> 00:26:40,265
Alabama is not necessarily
many, many unique licenses.
625
00:26:40,265 --> 00:26:42,434
We're just seeing really broad
scope to them.
626
00:26:42,434 --> 00:26:46,237
So one idea of having
this kind of deviation is
627
00:26:46,237 --> 00:26:48,006
we can get an idea of
628
00:26:48,006 --> 00:26:51,242
if there was a new occupation
to come up for licensing.
629
00:26:51,242 --> 00:26:52,711
So they started licensing
something new.
630
00:26:52,711 --> 00:26:57,015
One thing we've seen
in this most recent addition
631
00:26:57,015 --> 00:26:59,250
that we were looking at
for the 2020 for publication is
632
00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:02,687
states are starting to license
sign language, interpreters are
633
00:27:04,022 --> 00:27:07,025
with this difference in barriers
and licenses.
634
00:27:07,192 --> 00:27:08,994
It's likely
that we can kind of predict
635
00:27:08,994 --> 00:27:11,529
whether or not a state
is going to issue a new license
636
00:27:11,529 --> 00:27:15,233
or just kind of cover
those actions
637
00:27:15,233 --> 00:27:17,636
or those those processes
of that job
638
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,971
under an already
existing license.
639
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,707
So perhaps movie sign language
interpreter
640
00:27:22,707 --> 00:27:24,376
is more likely
to be incorporated
641
00:27:24,376 --> 00:27:27,212
into a license
that we already have,
642
00:27:27,212 --> 00:27:29,514
and we're just going
to put a barrier to it.
643
00:27:29,514 --> 00:27:33,451
And so then
what's our most unusual?
644
00:27:33,785 --> 00:27:37,389
Okay, so our most unusual is a
what we call a drama movement
645
00:27:37,389 --> 00:27:41,860
therapist
and a level led led abatement.
646
00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:44,162
Okay,
So that one always gets me.
647
00:27:44,162 --> 00:27:48,133
So the drug movement therapist
occupation is a more recent
648
00:27:48,133 --> 00:27:51,636
addition to the occupational
licensing environment in the US.
649
00:27:53,438 --> 00:27:56,441
These are people who are
650
00:27:57,442 --> 00:28:01,446
working through therapy, through
kind of a physical aspect.
651
00:28:01,446 --> 00:28:02,614
These aren't
physical therapists.
652
00:28:02,614 --> 00:28:04,182
These are
these are more counselors
653
00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,351
like the mental, physical side.
654
00:28:06,351 --> 00:28:09,521
And it's about play therapy.
655
00:28:09,521 --> 00:28:11,289
It's about it's about moving.
656
00:28:11,289 --> 00:28:12,157
It's not
657
00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:13,892
your traditional Freudian
sit on the couch
658
00:28:13,892 --> 00:28:16,494
and talk about your feelings,
that kind of therapy.
659
00:28:16,494 --> 00:28:19,464
It is it is a little bit
more about movement.
660
00:28:19,464 --> 00:28:24,803
And what we suspect is
this is pushed us into a space
661
00:28:25,203 --> 00:28:29,240
where the word therapist is is
662
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,777
the thing that gets us in that
in that like licensing space.
663
00:28:32,777 --> 00:28:35,113
So we think medical.
664
00:28:35,113 --> 00:28:35,947
Well,
665
00:28:35,947 --> 00:28:38,717
thanks so much for coming on
and talking to us
666
00:28:38,717 --> 00:28:39,851
about this here today.
667
00:28:39,851 --> 00:28:41,352
And thank you all
for joining us.
668
00:28:41,352 --> 00:28:44,222
Join us again next time
for another E conversations.
669
00:28:47,459 --> 00:28:49,594
This has been e conversations,
670
00:28:49,594 --> 00:28:52,931
a joint production of Troy
Church of Vision and the H.
671
00:28:52,964 --> 00:28:56,067
Johnson Center for Political
Economy at Troy University.
