Does the Bible Promote Immorality? | Can We Trust the Bible? Part 4

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In an age of uncertainty and spiritual noise, there is still a firm foundation.
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God's word is steady, his truth is sufficient.
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This is echoing truth.
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Anchored in scripture, engaged with culture, helping you stand firm.
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So here we are, uh continuing this discussion.
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Uh, should we trust the Bible?
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That's been the discussion um in the last several podcasts.
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Yes, that is the right answer.
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Thank you, honey.
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I appreciate that.
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Always gonna trust you for that.
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Um, we've had a bit of a pause just due to the busyness of life.
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And yeah, we have.
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Uh, that's always hard because I know that this is one of our passions to continue this and um, you know, just honor God through sharing truth.
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And uh, this has been a great journey for me.
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I think just uh exploring the truth, uh, the defense of scripture just just uh encourages me every time we get into this discussion and we dive into our outlines and and think through these truths because I think as Christians, it's so easy to succumb to thought uh thoughts of this uh you know world that we live in.
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And it's just really easy to buy into philosophies that we're being fed every day about Christianity, about God, about the Bible, and where it fits in today's world.
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So I think this is really good that we've been able to do this.
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Um, we're kind of in the middle of uh exploring the most common arguments for uh for those who distrust the Bible.
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Yep.
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And I think we've tackled some really powerful ones.
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Hopefully, it is something that can help others.
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I know it's helped us in just refining our thoughts.
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And today's is a is a difficult one.
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That's why we're just gonna do this one today, this one big argument.
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And uh it goes like this the Bible promotes immoral things.
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Have you ever heard that?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, it's a big attack.
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Yeah, I don't think that it's always presented in a way that people have taken time to think it through.
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But I think it's just again, uh, one of those low-hanging fruit things that you can grab real easy and toss at Christians and uh really toss at God and just say, you know, God, do this Bible thing.
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It just it really just is very immoral.
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It just gives them the ammo that they want to deny, yeah.
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To say it's not it's not real or it's bad, whatever, whatever they can find.
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Whatever they can find, everything and and anything is is what our world does today.
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And so for for Christians, I guess the discussion is equipping ourselves to defend these attacks, right?
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Um, I think the the greatest struggle the church is having today is that fewer and fewer Christians are prepared to battle the arguments.
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And I feel like it's they're quick to be on the defense and even quicker to retreat.
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Sure.
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Because they're just not ready to battle this.
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And I think in our culture today, um, there's so much um, I guess, hatred or discontentment for God, for scripture, for Christianity, that it's just it's easier sometimes to feel like I'm gonna win this by retreating.
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And I'm gonna love them, right?
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I mean, isn't that kind of a comic thing?
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Ready to give an answer to the faith that lies within you, which is what God asks us to do.
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Good response.
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And when we're not ready, that's not good.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and I think that's the key.
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I think there's times when we're all not ready.
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Yeah, you're not ready, and so you're like, I'm not gonna fight, or you know, get into an argument with somebody.
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I would I would rather use the word debate, um, get into a debate with somebody because I'm not prepared.
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So that's kind of what we're trying to do.
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We're helping people be prepared by thinking through this and talking about it.
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Yeah, I think it also it also reminds us the importance of that daily um seeking of God's word, study.
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That that's why we do it.
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I mean, that's what the armor of God is intended for, you know, that we're we're ready.
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Um, and yeah, be prepared at all times in season and out of season.
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So that's our goal.
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Um, one of the most common accusations against Christianity is that the Bible promotes immoral behavior.
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Um, critics will point to passages involving war, slavery, capital punishment, God's judgment on people groups, um, and ultimately just simply conclude that the Bible simply cannot be good.
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Right.
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It's certainly um, if this is what the Bible is, and this if this is who God is, I won't, I don't want any part of it, is the overall thought.
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But before you can honestly answer those objections, we have to ask this fundamental question.
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And this is the thought, this is the discussion today, is where does morality come from in the first place?
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Right?
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I mean, we have to answer that question before you can start judging God and saying there are immoral things in the Bible.
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Yeah, how do you know?
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How do you know?
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Where does morality come from?
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What is the standard?
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Yeah, what's the standard?
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So if morality is simply a matter of personal opinion or cultural preference, then no one can objectively uh say that anything, including God's actions, is truly right or wrong, right?
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I mean, that's just the reality.
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But again, that takes thought and it would cause you to have to pause before you even make such an accusation.
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Um, where does that line, who draws that line in our culture today?
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And I don't find that in the discussion very often.
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Yeah.
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When that is presented to Christians.
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Yep.
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Um, if God is immoral, who is?
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Or if God isn't moral, then who is?
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The person making the argument, right?
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Uh the leaders of the known world.
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I mean, who makes who draws those lines?
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Supreme Court.
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The Supreme Court.
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Well, I mean, some people would say that's absolutely the place for it.
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But but if God is a creator and source of objective moral truth, then his character, and this is everything about our discussion today, the his character, not our changing culture, uh, becomes a standard by which morality is measured.
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And I want us as Christians to really absorb that because I think that that has got to be the the um the key to this type of discussion or argument or teaching when it comes to this um accusation, is that God is the source um of truth, of moral truth.
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I mean, that is as a believer, as Christian, as a Christian, we stand on that.
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Yeah.
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And once you make that stance, you you you don't move from it, right?
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So in this particular discussion, that's where we're going to land today.
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And we're gonna establish that God is uh the creator of moral truth.
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Yep.
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And so we're gonna help define that.
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But it's also important to recognize that the Bible often records sinful human actions, right, without approving of them.
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Right.
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And I think that that's important also to say that just because it's history, it was something that got approved of.
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It's just that's what happened.
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And God could have actually done the same thing if it could have come, used that actual bad thing that happened to accomplish his goal, but doesn't mean that was his will.
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Correct.
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But it's easy to to grab that, right, and attack it because it just it seems easy.
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And I think Christians sometimes forget that.
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Yeah, you don't have to concede to things that are simply recorded in scripture as if God was condoning them.
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So I think that's important for us to set aside.
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But yeah, description is not endorsement.
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So the real question isn't whether uh there are these difficult passages exist because they do, and I think that requires our study and our uh true devotion to scripture and understanding.
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Um, but the question is whether they can under they they can correctly or consistently understand the holy character of God in the discussion.
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So that's what we want to kind of work through.
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Before we examine the difficult argument, we need to establish this one foundational truth, and it's this according to scripture, morality is not determined by a changing culture.
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Right?
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That is the truth we're gonna run with.
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It is grounded in the unchanging character of God.
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And I want, I want us as Christians to absorb that right now because it's so important to this discussion.
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We cannot concede ground uh on the basis of the shifting nature of our culture because every season of our culture is different.
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I mean, go back to the 1950s, there was a different sentiment about things.
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Now, today, the 80s, the 90s, the 2000s, every every decade we we push the line even further, right?
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And and yet God is not changing, he does not change, his moral truth does not change, his moral character does not change.
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And I think as Christians, that is, as you just said, that is what we lean on.
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That is that is where our peace and our comfort come, is that God does not shift and change like the seasons, thank God.
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Yeah, um how how does that make you guys feel?
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I guess what is the response to that?
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Well, it wouldn't that be pretty chaotic if uh you had a family and you know, we we talked about the family structure, and you're as parents, you have rules.
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Well, what if you were like, hey, tomorrow the rules are changing?
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Yeah, next week we're gonna change our mind, they're gonna change again, or we're gonna be a little bit more lenient on this.
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It's consistency.
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I mean, I even training your dog, it's consistency, right?
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So God being consistent, that's that's do you think that sometimes they point to the fact that he's not consistent though?
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Like I think about you know, God when when Adam and Eve sinned, I know this is part of the discussion in a little different way, but he said, In the day that you sin, you shall surely die.
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Right.
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And did they die?
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Well, he meant you you're no longer going to live forever, forever.
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It was just spiritual death.
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He had mercy, right?
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Technically, that was mercy because he could have Yeah, in the midst of judgment, there was still mercy.
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They didn't actually fall to the ground and die.
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They didn't die.
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And we do see that in other parts of the scripture, but yeah, he's taken people's lives immediately.
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Where he, you know, he killed his brother, and did God just take his life?
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Right.
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No.
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That does did he deserve that?
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Yes.
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So his mercy doesn't define his justice either.
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You know, you can't God is just and he but he can choose to be merciful.
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So the times where we see God change not change, but do something where he shows his mercy towards someone, we should be grateful for that mercy instead of look at it like, oh, you just weren't consistent.
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But that doesn't change his morality.
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He God still says that was wrong, but for him having mercy on that particular sin, that's what's great about our God is that he can be merciful on something, but it doesn't change the fact that he still says it's not right.
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And I'm not having it.
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And when God does allow that judgment to show, he does judge, or he brings a a part, you know, somebody is judged for their actions, we get very upset when we see it because well, yeah, it's not fair anymore.
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When God's mercy was shown in so many things, but when his justice is shown, we should accept that too.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think the the point we're making too is that's that's for God to decide.
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And that that is where our trust lies.
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Um, I think for us to always try to figure it out and analyze it based on our feelings or emotions is where we go wrong.
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Yeah, I think the fact is, what do I deserve?
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Death and hell.
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That's what I deserve.
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Yeah, I don't deserve heaven, right?
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Right?
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It's only by the mercy and and grace of God through his son Jesus Christ that I will inherit eternal life.
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Yep.
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But what do I deserve?
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What is right?
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Death and hell.
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Yep.
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We all deserve it.
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And I think that is the Christian perspective.
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And I do think we've we're losing that in our culture today because what is the sentiment?
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Everyone is good.
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We're entitled.
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We're good.
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There's good in everybody.
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And we, you know, that used to be kind of an outside the church perspective.
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Now it's creeped into the church, and and uh unfortunately, there's kind of a defining position in most people that, well, we're generally good.
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No, we're not.
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We're generally sinners, and we will be bent towards that if we have the opportunity.
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Um, and I think the the uh the work of Christ in us, the work of the Holy Spirit each day is renewing that, renewing the mind, renewing the heart.
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Otherwise, I'm gonna be bent to sin.
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So yeah, God in his he establishes morality.
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Thank God he has mercy.
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Thank God in every instance he didn't take their lives instantly.
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He could have, and it would have been right to do so.
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I think that's what you're trying to say.
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But let's talk about this.
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The Bible promotes immoral things.
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We have several points to bring out, I think, that come with this argument.
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And the first one, I'll say it this way, I guess it's the Canaanite conquest, yeah, which may not be how people phrase it, but they'll be like, you know, when Israel killed all those people in the Bible, um, that was immoral.
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Yeah, that was bad.
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That was bad.
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And if God does that, I want no part of it.
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I've heard that from so many people.
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But let's talk about this Canaanite conquest.
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Um, but again, let's continue to keep established here that God is the moral truth, right?
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He is He is the one who establishes morality, and I think that's that's important here.
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But there's several passages.
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I've had the privilege in the last several, actually most of this year now, of starting in the Old Testament with Genesis and just I'm now in uh Samuel, 2 Samuel.
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I just started Genesis too.
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Uh it's it's been the most amazing journey, probably because we've been doing these topics.
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I'm an Exodus.
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It's taking me a lot longer.
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But you know what?
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I appreciated every one of those books.
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I would encourage every Christian who's never journeyed through the Old Testament.
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Yeah, don't listen to the ideas that that somehow has no value for you.
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It's absolutely untrue.
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Um, and it really brings light to this discussion specifically because uh we have been circling this whole um uh arena of when God brought the people of Israel into the promised land and that whole journey.
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And um, so here comes the Canaanites, this the this land of people in which God was replacing it, was really judgment, right?
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And then God has a right to do so.
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Yep.
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Um, I think the criticism is that God commanded Israel to go in and destroy all these innocent poor people, men, women, and children.
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That's the argument.
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And I think the mistake made is that they were innocent.
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Yeah, they were not.
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When in fact they were horrible people, they were horrible people, and and I think um as as are we, right, given to our own inclinations, right?
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Um, the they we become sinners and apart from God in a wayward um situation in our lives, we too would would go that way.
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I mean, look at the look at the people of Israel, how many times he had to chasten them.
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Oh, yeah, how many times he unleashed wrath on his own people that he was guiding out of Egypt into the promised land, how many times he had to take their lives sometimes in Egypt.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I'm uh to purify the that's what we were talking about in my Sunday school class.
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And it it's amazing how many times it just is one like you were just led by a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day.
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Not good enough.
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The red sea was split for you, manna fell from the sky, meat fell from the sky, but you're you're you're turning around, you're you're you're you're you're complaining and grumbling, and not only that, but choosing to make gods from your own hands and worship them, and then you're upset when the when the earth opens up and swallows swallows.
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Yeah, you can't read that and not have a fear for God.
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Yeah, but it's almost like God is giving them visuals, uh, and and I guess we we can't really probably even be upset at them.
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Look at what we do on a daily basis.
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We see God's faithfulness, it's different, but we see God's faithfulness on a regular basis.
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But the journey is rewarding as you look at this, and and I I've so as I'm talking about this, the Canaanites, I I I just the the the amount of insight I've gained is just rereading all these books and realizing um, to your point, how much uh grace he had on these people as he was wiping them out, right?
00:16:51.759 --> 00:17:04.480
Even in their sin, even in uh uh I guess a justice that was being done upon the land and and God was giving this land to the Israelites, he still had mercy on these people, even in the judgment.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.240
But um, they weren't perfect people.
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:13.440
And MacArthur, as we echo truth here, we're gonna draw out the truth that God is the creator and has authority over life and death.
00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:21.119
And we need to remind everyone that um uh of that truth that he alone has authority over life and death.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:29.519
And again, we have to realign ourselves as we have this discussion that, like it or not, as creator, he alone has that authority.
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:30.799
I don't have that authority.
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:36.079
Man, government, nobody among us has that authority.
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.880
And so to judge what was taking place here um would be just incorrect.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.160
The Canaanites, as we just mentioned, were not innocent people.
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:56.880
Um, they were not these uh happy inhabited people who or some would say indigenous somehow, that they had earned this wonderful existence and God was just wiping out these poor people.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:09.680
Um, this culture had begun become extraordinary, extraordinarily wicked after centuries of rebellion, including things like child sacrifice, ritual prostitution, idolatry, and widespread violence.
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:15.200
I mean, that that's really what was taking place in the land of Canaan as God was bringing in his people.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:17.680
So um there are multiple scriptures.
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:26.960
Genesis 15 indicates, Genesis 15, 16 indicates that God delayed judgment on the uh Amorites for hundreds of years.
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:27.440
All right.
00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:34.000
So again, his mercy, even in the midst of rightful judgment, um, can be seen.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:41.039
Um so MacArthur emphasizes this was judicial judgment by God Himself.
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.039
And who are we to judge?
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:43.839
Yeah.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.319
Is God not does God not possess that authority?
00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:55.440
As Christians today, in our world today, can we say that God does have that authority?
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:56.559
Yeah, we can.
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.559
I think outside of Christianity, that's where people struggle because they just they don't know.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:02.240
It it sounds too harsh.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:02.640
Yeah.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:03.440
Yeah.
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:20.079
And I I don't know that we have that discussion enough because it just sounds too harsh in today's world where everybody is good and we're trying to pretend that we're saving everybody, but in all reality, um what God did here was absolutely just.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:20.640
Yeah.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:39.519
Um there's many scriptures, Genesis 15, as I just mentioned, Leviticus 18, which you're about to get to, Deuteronomy 9, Romans 9, even talks about this, that that God in his rightful position has that authority, that he establishes what is morally right.
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:55.119
And so um I realize in this discussion that those who are not believers or Christians and look God and and see God as creator, uh ruler of all the all creation are not gonna acknowledge this truth.
00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:02.319
But I want to speak to Christians who who might be standing on the fence on this particular topic and going, I don't know why God wiped them out.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:06.799
Um, and frankly, I'm not I'm not sure where I land on that.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:15.839
But that's who I want to speak to, to say God alone establishes what is morally correct, right?
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:21.119
And we need to align ourselves with that because it's not something that just take took place then.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.039
I see God still doing that today.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:29.920
He didn't get mad all of a sudden and was like today, you really made me mad because you did this.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.839
Yes, he gave them time to repent, right?
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:35.119
Because that's a theme.
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:36.319
God wants all to repent.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:37.200
Right.
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.240
Um, and who knows how many times he warned them.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.240
A lot of times God sends prophets out to say, Hey, you need to stop.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:46.079
But that's mercy, right?
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:52.799
I mean, that and if we look at how we handle things as people, like look at the the World Trade Towers.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.480
As soon as that happened, we went to war, right?
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.279
It was like an immediate knee knee-jerk reaction.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:58.720
But God's patient.
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:04.079
Yeah, and he's he's waiting, he's he's hoping that they'll repent, he's giving them a chance.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:08.319
And like you would said 500 years that he waited, that's a long time.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:15.599
We we don't we don't live 500 years, um, but that's a long time for us for a culture to be given time to repent.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:23.680
And which is a really important uh perspective is that to trust God in that capacity, that's how you have to look at it.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:29.599
Yeah, that that God in his love and mercy w does does nothing unjustly.
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:42.880
So when you look at this particular situation, you can't knowing who God is, knowing his character, you cannot assume that he just uh dealt with these people unjustly, right?
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:44.240
Because that's not the character of God.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:57.759
But if you don't know the character of God, which is a very big deal that uh I would say, as believers, do we understand the character of God or the attributes of God that we should know him?
00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.200
That's why we study God's word.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.880
One of the means that God gives us to know him is opening his word and finding those things out.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:06.240
What who is he?
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:06.559
Yeah.
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:11.599
So that you can because our gods, even man, any man-made god are they're just they're just horrible.
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:13.519
They're way more awful than than you.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.640
There's no justice, no, for the most part.
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:29.759
It could be why this past journey through the old testament or current journey has been more so much so rich to me is because I feel like I'm at a point in my life, I'm mature enough to know the character of God.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:38.319
So I see these this historic unveiling so much richer than I ever had before because I have that utter faith in God.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:38.799
Wisdom.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.359
I don't look at Him go, God, what?
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:42.960
What did you just do here?
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.599
Forget it, shut the book and say, I don't want any part of that.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.319
I know exactly who God is.
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.640
And I know that he dealt justly with every one of these people groups.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:52.880
Yeah.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:01.920
That every one of them had an opportunity, even as Roman says, that we just through nature are aware of the truth.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:03.920
So I think you have to have that.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:14.559
And again, that's an encouragement to Christians to say, if you're gonna debate this argument, if you're gonna even consider it, you have to press in to understand who God is.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:15.119
Yep.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:16.079
With confidence.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:16.880
With confidence.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.799
And if you don't understand something, press in and find out, not the opposite direction.
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:23.519
What else?
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.079
The Bible promote promotes immoral things.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.000
What what are what what are some of the other subpoints here that we're dealing with?
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.519
Yeah, so another one that uh talks about is slavery.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:39.759
Oh, and today the word slavery is is really uh negative, has a lot of negative connotation to it.
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:45.359
So uh some passages modern day slavery is negative, right?
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:46.400
It's been very bad.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:50.880
Because man has destroyed what slavery was supposed to be.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:24:09.359
It was we talked a little bit about this before we started that um slavery is it was for people who had sometimes had nothing, and so they would give themselves to somebody who did have money or position so that they could serve them and be out of poverty and not live like on the streets.
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.519
And so or to pay off a debt.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.599
To pay off a debt, another good good example.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:25.920
So a lot of a lot of things uh were happening, and and in not always because man is sinful, but in a lot of those instances, the the master treated the slaves well.
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.720
This was not a I've got a whip and I'm whipping you all the time type slavery.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:37.680
This was I'm rewarding you for your good work ethic and your hard work, and and they were kind of part of the family.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:40.079
So um, yeah, we got to be clear.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.960
It wasn't race-based type of slavery, right?
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:48.480
Where you just chattel all this group together and say, we don't like who you are, we're putting you in slavery, right?
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:51.440
The same race.
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:52.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:59.039
So I I think that's really important to remember that um the definition was was different back then.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.640
So the criticism, the Bible regulates slavery rather than abolishing it.
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.799
So it it's it's not that we're regulating it.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:17.200
I think what the Bible is is always doing it's a historical reference of what slavery was in those days.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:21.599
And so um it's not saying, well, today we should have slavery too.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.160
It was just saying that in those times slavery was happening.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:30.559
This is how um God wanted structured, and God's structure for slavery was supposed to be good if we followed his.
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:31.599
I don't even know.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:35.039
Would you would you think slavery was I don't think that was God's idea?
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:44.400
I think it was a human thing that happened because that's part of humanity, but there was God did say, you are not to do it that you are not to do this, you are not to do this.
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:45.279
Order it.
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:45.759
Order it.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:47.599
That's that's a that's a good way to put it that way.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.880
You can't just steal a person and sell them into slavery.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.160
It's it's punishable by death, isn't it?
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:56.000
I don't think that's what he's saying either, though.
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.880
I think it's also it wasn't that it was um stealing somebody, it was a willful decision.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:06.960
Yes, yes, uh right there for a practical cultural situation that that did happen.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:13.039
When you look at Oma Onesimus, he was a slave that left fleet but came back.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:23.519
Yeah, and was it such a difficult idea in the culture that we live in, even have discussions like this because there's so much just anti-slavery ideas of what it is.
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:30.559
But when you're really looking at it, the scripture the the New Testament actually gives instruction for slave owners.
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:31.279
Why was that?
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:35.279
Because it was it was at the time part of society, a part of society.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:45.119
Maybe uh uh uh it was they were unable to God did actually give things that the value of human life, the image of God.
00:26:45.359 --> 00:27:01.119
I mean, it was be ultimately because of the Bible that slavery eventually has well, you might make an argument that slavery eventually dissolved because of the advancements of our uh societies, right?
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:01.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:13.759
The advancements of our societies allowed men and women more equal opportunity, yeah, more ways to maybe salvage their life in a situation where they were at the end of the road, right?
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:30.160
Uh, I mean, I'm I'm speaking, you know, a little out of out of you know my own sorts in the sense of I I it's not something I specifically studied, but I think when you go back to biblical times, I think it's probably difficult for us in our modern times to understand the culture and how it functioned then.
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:37.279
Obviously, we see that slavery, indentured servitude was a was a normal part of life.
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:40.079
Um, many wealthy people had many slaves.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:40.640
Yep.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:47.759
Not not in the way that they went into some country, hoarded them, stuck them on a boat, and and brought them to themselves.
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.440
They paid them, they they gave them uh housing and food.
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:58.000
It's just like today, people that are wealthy, they have multiple people that are working in the mansion or if you whatever you want to call it.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.079
Yeah, it was a form of employment, yeah.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.319
It it yeah, but it was it was different, right?
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:06.640
So I I think the discussion, you know, uh let's just bring this back to where we're at.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:07.039
Yep.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.160
The Bible does, you know, it's it's immoral, right?
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:15.119
That somehow it condones this, the the atrocities of slavery.
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:24.079
I think what we're trying to discern here is that at the times in the culture of these this biblical times, this was a normal part of life.
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:36.559
There was an aspect of normal life that included this type of uh indentured slavery to the point where the Bible actually instructs us how to handle slaves.
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:36.960
Yep.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:37.920
Um in a good way.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.960
You can't ignore that.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.640
So that's I think what we're drawing out.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:42.400
Yep, absolutely.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:48.000
So, you know, just going over some of the things that uh we talked about to reinforce it.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.960
So the Bible distinguishes biblical servitude, right?
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:51.920
It's servitude.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:05.279
Yeah, that it's it's people volunteer to do this because they have some situation versus the modern race-based uh uh slavery, it's it's not can I just yeah, uh let me let me just interject.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:07.200
Let me ask you the question.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:21.920
This in today's society, and we might not have to do this today because there's there's means, but if as a a provider of my home, if I got to the point where I could not provide, I could not feed my family, right?
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.519
Would I go to serve someone else who could assist that?
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:26.559
Yeah, I would.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:27.359
Yeah.
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:37.839
If it were an aspect of our culture, if it was a way of um providing for my desperate family, would I?
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:38.559
Absolutely.
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:41.440
I guess that's that's how I would answer that, if that makes any sense.
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:43.599
Right now, we don't have to do that in our society.
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:56.319
We have means that uh thank God have allowed, um, especially in America, allowed us to thrive even in our desperate state or rise back up or equip ourselves.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:57.519
There's so many helps out there.
00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:58.640
There may not have been that.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:00.000
Well, there's uh in political times.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:04.240
Like you said, there's the advancement of the culture, there's so many different things you can do.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:10.559
Where back then it was you were limited, you were either a farmer or some sort of laborer.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:12.000
Um, it was very simple.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:21.920
So, if uh like you said, if you if you were handicapped, you definitely probably were needing somebody to help you, so you would provide them whatever service you could.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.920
So, yeah, things were much different um Bible times.
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:31.200
So, and and once again, God is just saying this is the way things were in the society.
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:37.440
So, I'm going to put some governance around it because it's great, you guys you guys are abusing it, right?
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:46.720
Yeah, so I and and this goes to the point, um, Amy, you were uh hinting at this, like kidnapping and selling a human being in slavery was a capital offense.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.359
Absolutely, it was death under God's law.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:50.319
Absolutely, right?
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.160
Yeah, so it's very important to point out.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:31:00.799
And the only time God says this is punishable by death means it was extremely important, like homosexuality, adultery.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:07.119
I mean, there were some things in the Bible that God was like, I don't want you guys doing this, and so I'm gonna make the punishment really harsh.
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:09.440
So, guys, this slavery was one of those.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:11.759
So don't think that God was like, hey, you know, no big deal.
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:16.000
Slavery it's crazy to think you guys, you guys are doing crazy things down there.
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.160
He was serious about it.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:20.000
So um, let's see.
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.119
So servants were protected under Mosaic law, right?
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:35.759
So there were there were things present, so it wasn't like a wild, wild west where people were just taking people, and the a lot of the slavery had structure around it because of God's word.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:46.720
So once again, it wasn't because God said there was slavery that there was slavery, there was slavery because it was a uh a cultural thing, it's probably better to say servitude.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.680
Yeah, servitude because slavery takes on so many connotations today.
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.240
I was gonna say, is this the same word?
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:52.880
I don't know.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:54.880
I wouldn't I wouldn't use the word slave.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:55.839
Thesaurus.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:56.559
I don't know.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:00.720
It's a great little you know side note to explore too.
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:06.799
Um, but I think that that's what I see when I look at the biblical times and what was allowed.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:19.039
I think that's probably where so much confusion comes in when this argument comes up, because it just feels like wait, wait, God said that's okay to just hoard people and and steal them and bring no, absolutely he did not.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:20.720
That was never condoned.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:32.240
But servitude on multiple levels for various reasons, even in situations where uh in the times if if uh a conquering people you you've taken them in.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:43.119
Now, again, I don't see God ever condoning that, but it happened that God brought protections even for those people in that, I guess, evil situation, right?
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:43.519
Yep.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:53.519
And I think that is where over time you saw that God's truth, his value of humanity eventually worked out slavery out of our culture completely.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.440
Once again, knowing our God, right?
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:57.279
He created us, we are important to him.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:58.559
That's why he's protecting us.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:05.359
So in the New Testament, Christ uh transformed that relationship of uh the servant and the master.
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:09.519
He said that they are equal before God and they're accountable, right, for their role.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:09.839
Yeah.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:16.960
So the slaves had a role and the master had a role, and they're they're supposed to be treating each other well on both sides.
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:25.920
And then Paul had a letter to uh Philemon uh that uh uh onissimus is welcome back, not merely as a servant, but as beloved brother in Christ.
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:31.119
So that that's another thing that Christ um put separation in.
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:35.839
So or uh put uh put cohesity in because we were they were separated initially.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:40.880
So if you are both Christians, slave and master, you guys are equal.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:44.640
There's there and there's brotherly love, there's a brotherhood there.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:56.160
And so I I think it takes away that um where people think that they're above you or better than you because of a title, God broke all of that in a lot of different ways.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:58.079
And this is another one where he said, You're equal.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.359
Yeah, the same.
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:00.559
Yeah, equal in position.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:01.119
Position, yeah.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:02.640
I might have different roles, right?
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:03.200
Correct.
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.160
Yeah, yes, yep.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:05.279
So that's awesome.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.960
Yeah, um, and I think that takes me to my synopsis at the end.
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:21.519
So scripture has laid the moral foundation that eventually fueled the abolition of slavery and not its continuation, right?
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:23.039
So we we have to remember that.
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:27.039
And I've said this a couple times, it was a historical moment.
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:53.440
So the Bible is a historical document, and God was just explaining what was going on, he put rules around it, and then Christ came and he really put some more uh better rules around slavery that ultimately led to one, I would I would say it not being called slavery, but be called being called a servant, and then also that it was eventually just abolished.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:01.119
It's it's no I mean, maybe in some third world countries it happens, but I I think it's mostly gone in our world.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:01.920
Yeah.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:11.920
Yeah, and certainly there's a you know there's a an attitude towards it, which it's it's why this is a pr is is a problem or an argument against the Bible, right?
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:29.519
Because it becomes this low-hanging fruit that people can attack the integrity of scripture and make a wild accusation, a broad sweep of something that I think is far more complex from a human standpoint, from our history standpoint, than I think most even know today.
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:44.800
So we're we're we're dismantling that with that argument and simply saying, is God the you know, uh He is the He defines what morality is, and that is that was his answer to abolish it eventually completely.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:54.159
Um yeah, the the Bible promotes immoral things is what we're talking about, and here's another very common attack.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:56.559
Yeah, uh capital punishment.
00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:05.119
People will go after after the Bible um because in some ways it promotes or endorses execution.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:06.400
Right?
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:11.440
Um people are all over the place on this particular topic.
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:24.639
This one can be touchy, and we have that big case right now where uh that lady was uh sentenced to death in two attempts, and she's now I'm not afraid to show my cards on this particular topic.
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:30.000
I I think capital punishment has a place in in society, unfortunately.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:37.440
Um not that you wish ill on anybody, right, but for the protection of people in general.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:42.400
It's a consequence that consequences puts fear into people of not not continuing doing those things.
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:42.960
Yeah.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:43.360
Yeah.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:43.840
Yeah.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:54.000
I I think the criticism is critics will argue the Bible endorses execution, um, which is such a wild, loose statement that you just have to we have to rein that in, right?
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:56.079
Um to bring truth to it.
00:36:56.159 --> 00:37:05.920
You know, MacArthur often says human life has intrinsic value because humans bear God's image, and that is what scripture teaches, right?
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:06.559
Right.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:12.320
That that humanity as a whole, we are crafted in God's image.
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:18.320
So of course he doesn't endure wild, uh unjust execution of mankind.
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:21.840
That is not his nature, that is not his character.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:29.920
And so I think again, as Christians, you just you have to stand bold on that understanding and that position in an argument like this.
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:35.119
Now, capital punishment is presented as a protection of innocent life.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:35.679
Yeah.
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:44.880
And that is the only way to look at it correctly, I believe, is that there are certain situations in which it is required.
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:52.320
Now, God gives authority to to our government, gives authority to authorities to to measure that out.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:59.119
And I I just think it's a wild and loose concept to say that that has no place in society.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:06.880
Um, when if you take just even a brief look at history, you you realize it's absolutely necessary.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:21.039
Sin becomes dark and evil, and there is a place in which all grace has been given, all mercy has been given, and there's nothing more to do to protect innocent life.
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:22.239
The Canaanites, right?
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.559
I mean, they're probably doing the same thing.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:40.079
I mean, to bring us into this day and age, you have shows on television, whole series built on death, on uh evil, no, well killing, murder, yeah, demonic, yes.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:41.280
Okay, the punisher.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:42.000
Yeah.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:42.800
Come on.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:50.960
I mean, and we sit there and we see these horrible, yeah, really bad things.
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:52.559
What are they, John Wick?
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.199
Uh like there's these people that you're like you can.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:59.039
Somehow society accepts it because they're punishing the bad guys, okay.
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.159
But again, who defines who the bad guy is?
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.280
But yeah, we all are like, yeah.
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:06.960
That is deserved.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:09.440
And it's like, okay, you're right.
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:17.280
There are heinous, awful things that deserve capital punishment.
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:17.920
Right.
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:28.000
It is there, and you feel it when you watch a show like that and you're like, I would never in a million years think that these people should just be killed this way.
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:38.159
But when you know what they've done and you've you've like something seen it, these people, you know, you get this like really angry feeling.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:42.000
I think the attack comes in where God executes that, correct?
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.320
I mean, that's what that God allowed it.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:45.920
That's I think almost based on fear.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:50.480
I mean, if you go back to the old testament, he'll strike people down, just bam.
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:52.239
Of course, he did it in the New Testament as well.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:52.639
Right.
00:39:52.800 --> 00:40:08.639
I think that there's a fear for those who are evil, for those who are uh stalwart, anti-God, you know, that very the very concept of that strikes fear in people, that God is that powerful that He can knock you out in a second.
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:09.599
Bring fear.
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:13.599
That the well, it says the beginning of all wisdom is the fear of God.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:14.800
So as it should be.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:26.239
So if you have a fear, uh a healthy fear that your sin is deserving of punishment, then you're going to hopefully address it.
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:30.559
I I'm I'm at the point where you know, I think it is in Samuel.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:33.360
I just read it, where they're bringing in the Ark of the Covenant.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:40.960
And I think it was Uzzah, one of the priests, reached out to stabilize the Ark and Bam, dead.
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.119
And some people would go, how unjust.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:47.199
Even David did, if you remember, he got angry at God at that moment.
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:53.679
That's why it strikes me in this conversation because when you go into the Old Testament, you read these narratives, you see that these people are just human.
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:58.480
Even David, you know, who what a great defender of God and a heart for God.
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:00.880
Even him, he was baffled by it.
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:01.519
He was angry.
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:06.960
And and God had to almost deal with him over that because he he was pouting.
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.960
He, you know, but what God did at that moment was just.
00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:16.639
Now, we may not understand that because we we don't define what is right and wrong, right?
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.639
What is morat morally correct.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:23.039
But at that moment, that was what God decided was right and wrong.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:24.800
And I think we have to align with that.
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.920
We don't get to say, God, that wasn't right or wrong.
00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:29.679
Right, but that wasn't wrong.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.320
He he had told them that they're not supposed to touch that great detail, right?
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:35.039
So, yeah.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:38.159
I mean, yes, God's holy.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:41.119
We we don't understand it because he thinks differently than us.
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:46.639
So when you get into these, uh, I'll call it a conundrum in your mind where you're like, I don't understand why he did that.
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:48.559
Sometimes we're just not going to.
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:51.039
I I think in this one you can because God warned them.
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:52.480
He said you can't touch uh the ark.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:13.360
And I'm gonna say there's an actual sermon that John talks about this, and it's been a while since I've listened to it, but there's there are resources for verses like that that there's in very deep meaning to why what he did and his disobedience, the act of that.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:18.559
We think it was this just simple little thing that he just reached out and touched it, but just trying to have it.
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:21.039
It really wasn't that.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:22.320
It really wasn't.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:28.239
It was it it was well, flash to today much more deeper issue.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:34.320
Let's just talk about the the the woman who just recently killed three of her children, was it strangled them?
00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:35.519
Right, whatever.
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:42.639
And and and apart from one juror, they were all saying just let her go, she's innocent.
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:44.719
She had that right to just kill her children.
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:45.199
Right.
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:46.960
Where are we in society?
00:42:47.199 --> 00:43:00.320
This argument seems a little bit arbitrary a little bit, but it's not because in our world today, evil has gotten darker and and deeper and crazier than we've ever seen before, right?
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:05.280
To the point where it's okay for a mom to literally kill her kids, right?
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:12.960
And and for 99% of the jurors to say absolutely Yeah, he's not a bad guy.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:23.440
So but this is why we have to be so thankful that God does not change, because as our society is getting wild, and some of the things that they believe uh in and that they say is okay.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:31.039
If we didn't have God to go back to and say this is what he says, we would just continue down this path of just lawlessness.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.119
Yeah, the line just keeps moving.
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:34.800
Whatever, yeah, no big deal.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:46.000
I think that's why this is such an important discussion, especially you know, this particular attack that somehow, you know, uh capital punishment is just this unimoral idea from God.
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.199
Um, our world absolutely requires it.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:49.840
Yeah.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:58.719
Um, and and let's just face it, we're all we're all heading, we're all gonna die and we all deserve hell, right?
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:08.159
So that's That execution is already in place for all of us, apart from the work of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He brings to us.
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:12.880
The good news, as the the New Testament proclaims, apart from that, we were all lost.
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:13.519
Right.
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:21.199
And and so, you know, this discussion seems a little crazy because in the grand scheme of things, God says you all deserve to die.
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:21.920
Yeah.
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:26.639
And um the only way I'm gonna fix that is through my son Jesus Christ.
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:29.599
So and we also have to remember things could be a lot worse.
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.880
If you're in a communist country, there are things they put you to death, yeah.
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:33.679
Or whatever.
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.079
Yeah.
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:37.599
I mean, we in America, we've got it really easy.
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:45.119
So I think people love the fact that, hey, I can complain about something and not like something, and there's no repercussion.
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:48.239
I I mean, I can spit on other people, I can whatever.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.679
I mean, there's just it runs rampant.
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:58.800
But don't miss the point that our our our justice system is based on Judeo Christian uh truths, right?
00:44:59.039 --> 00:44:59.679
Values.
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:02.159
That is what distinguishes America from what it is.
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:06.079
Now, I will argue the justice system is eroding very, very fast.
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:19.360
And I would say it's it's probably more injust than it's just, but the principles of our governing legal system were all built on Christian principles, and I think that's why America is so different and so set aside.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:23.760
I think it's a tragedy that we're seeing what's uh kind of a misuse of that.
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:25.360
But thank God for it.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:30.000
To your point, still the greatest country in the world for those reasons.
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:31.039
So, what else?
00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:32.880
The Bible promotes immoral things.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:34.239
Um, we have a few more.
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:36.559
Um harsh Mosaic laws.
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.119
So, you know, this goes back to my comment.
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:40.480
It could be a lot worse.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:47.920
Um, but you know, the mosaic law said um death if uh you're an adulterer uh for blasphemy, Sabbath violations.
00:45:48.079 --> 00:46:06.000
But these things were important, especially back then, because uh adultery, God knew what that would do to a culture if everyone's just sleeping around, and especially outside of like God wanted the Jews to stay within their culture, he did not want them taking people from outside because it corrupted them.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.079
They they had different gods, different I mean so.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:18.239
But when you say this is a very specific God had this covenant with Israel, yep, that was his chosen people.
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:24.400
They said, All these things that you ask us not to do, or all that you've asked us to do, we will do.
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:28.960
That was the covenant that they voluntarily entered into with God.
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:34.079
And so, you know, this group of people, these things were written for them.
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:40.480
Now, I'm not saying that everybody would benefit from these things, every culture would benefit from these from these.
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:48.719
It was the Mosaic covenant, it was the Mosaic covenant, so it's it's like a covenant that's governed Israel was governing his people, right?
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:50.239
And they agreed to it.
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:54.880
I mean, you can see all the things that you've asked us to do, we will do, which is crazy because they couldn't do it.
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:56.719
It's it was immediately stopped.
00:46:57.760 --> 00:46:59.039
Immediately, yeah, yeah.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:12.400
Uh but I find that interesting because it's not like and all of those different things that we're talking about right now, if if other civilizations actually put them into practice, they benefited from it.
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:12.800
Right.
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:14.239
There was a blessing.
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:22.480
And and I love how you guys said governing because every other society had some sort of governance around what they were allowed to do, not to do.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:30.320
I mean, you see, in some of the Middle East Eastern countries, uh homosexuality is penalized by death, like hang you or yeah, whatever it is.
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:35.920
So saying that these are harsh, what what's the context around that?
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.719
It's yeah, they're protecting something.
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:44.880
So the the adultery, the blasphemy, Sabbath violations were very important within uh the culture within the Jews.
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.199
And you're right, that's something that they agreed to.
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:50.559
Uh so the criticism is well, the penalties seem severe.
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:58.239
You gotta take that in context because there were other countries, other areas where there were things a lot worse going on.
00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:04.400
So this is just once again God protecting the people by putting structure around a society.
00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:08.159
Yeah, it was also his way of governing them at the time.
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.079
I mean, this is prior to Israel having a king, right?
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:12.880
Man-made.
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:14.400
It was God leading them, right?
00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:21.519
The Mosaic covenant on uh was that covenant with his people, and they absolutely agreed to it.
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:26.239
It was a way to preserve and purify his people, and they did agree with it.
00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:27.840
You know, it is what they wanted.
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.719
They just couldn't, they couldn't hold to it.
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:36.159
Yeah, which is of course what brings us to the New Testament that apart from Christ, we can't do it.
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:37.119
There's just no way.
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:38.239
Impossible.
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:38.880
Yeah.
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:39.440
Yeah.
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:45.199
So MacArthur talks about this and he he distinguishes between moral law, civil law, ceremonial law.
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:50.079
So they had all three of those that they had to follow, each one being unique.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:57.119
But once again, each one had a reason uh for uh for for God to give them these things to follow.
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:05.679
So the civil penalties were tied to Israel's covenant relationship with God, which we just talked about, and they're not directly transferable to modern civil governments.
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:06.960
That's good.
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:07.519
Yep.
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:11.039
Yeah, so the Bible promotes immoral things, that's what we're talking about.
00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:15.679
Women is is a big issue when it comes to the Old Testament and the Satan.
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:19.119
Yeah, yeah, that's what it feels like too, doesn't it, though?
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:35.679
These topics are are they they feel like you're baiting yourself into into trouble because um society has so manipulated the conversation when it comes to these types types of topics, to the point where I'll argue churches, pastors are afraid to deal with them.
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:39.280
That's the that's the concern I have for the state of our church.
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:43.360
And so most churches will never touch the topic of women.
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:51.039
And if they do, it's it's it's handled so poorly that it falls more in line with the cultural trends than it does biblical trends.
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:55.199
So um, but the criticism is that the Bible is accused of sexism, right?
00:49:55.280 --> 00:50:01.280
It's stall about men, women were were were um somehow abused in this particular thing.
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:09.519
And and I I think um it should be stated that um we're talking about history, we're talking about mankind.
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:10.079
Yep.
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:16.079
So in all of that, there was sin, there was waywardness, there was things done wrong.
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:24.800
And so, of course, uh the the the playout of humanity and society, there were lots of things that were done injustly.
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:36.800
Um, but it doesn't fall in line with this particular criticism that somehow the Bible endorses this sexist perspective and denies and push pushes down and suppresses women.
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:44.960
Um and and we need to, I completely just deny this attack that that has been put up against the Bible.
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:48.400
And I say that because it's pr it's prevailed.
00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:50.559
I see it in the church, I see it among patches.
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:57.119
17 years of a full-time ministry, um, I can tell you, conversation after conversation, this was taboo.
00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:57.599
Oh, yeah.
00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:59.840
Don't talk about it, don't hint towards it.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:08.639
In fact, open up the door for um the modern um feminist movement.
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:11.440
Open it up and let's just get rid of this argument.
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.159
And I think that's where so much atrocity has happened in the church when it comes to this particular topic.
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:19.440
But from the beginning, both men and women were created equally.
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:29.360
We know that's from Genesis, um, equally in the image of God, well established in scripture, well stated, possessing equal dignity, value, and worth.
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.639
That is what the Bible proclaims.
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:37.119
That is who God is, that is what He's established men and women to be.
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:44.239
Now, the Bible, this is where the confusion gets, and I think it's just lack of study, lack of learning, lack of um common sense.
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:49.119
The Bible teaches um, it doesn't teach inequality at all.
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:51.039
It teaches complementary roles.
00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:51.519
Yep.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.079
And I, you know, it's it's unfortunate.
00:51:54.159 --> 00:52:02.159
After 17 years of ministry, I don't think that we dove into this arena until we had left full-time ministry.
00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:13.440
We dove into John MacArthur's study, and it was really the first time in my life I read books related to the distinct role of men and women from a godly Christian biblical perspective.
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:14.320
Life changing.
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:16.400
It opened it blew my mind.
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:33.440
And I remember thinking, how is it possible that I'm this far along, that I've gone through Bible college, that I've been in full-time ministry for this long, and I've never approached this topic, never read a book, never had a study, never went to a conference, not once.
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:34.400
Because of what you said earlier.
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:37.679
Just don't touch it, don't talk about it.
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:57.679
The power that is in the truths that we're talking about right now, for releasing women from having to be a man or or function in a in a role that was not given to them.
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:06.000
And the the power of of women being able to actually be women, it's an amazing thing.
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:07.840
It's just a beautiful thing, actually.
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:10.000
And when you when we function as we're supposed to.
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:23.360
When you function as you're supposed to, you see that complementary side of it where a woman and a man compliment each other and actually walk together in that complimentary life, it's just absolutely beautiful.
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:29.039
I would argue uh one of the books I read, in fact, I'm about to go through it with my son because I keep putting it off, but it's time.
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:33.519
This book, I I remember going through it with our men's group when we were church planting.
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:38.159
And I said to myself, I said to them, I said so many times, this will heal marriages.
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:43.440
This will 100% puts the responsibility where it's marriage.
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:50.800
If the two understand this and realign themselves, it will literally transform a marriage.
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:53.599
Um, from all the problems that are very common in today's world.
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:58.719
So I will argue here we are in a world where we can't define what a woman is.
00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:00.079
We're not allowed to.
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:00.559
Yeah.
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:04.159
Um men don't even know how to be men anymore.
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:04.719
Yeah.
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:10.239
Uh it's it's it's deteriorated to such a degree that men don't even know how to get careers anymore.
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:12.480
They're caught in their homes, their basements.
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:24.320
Meanwhile, men women are trying to be men and and advancing and discontent beyond reason, not really understanding why, but simply because they're not they're not playing the role God intended for them.
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:24.719
Yep.
00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:38.800
And I know how offensive that can be, but if you really just drop the offense and ask yourself some really, really tough questions about what God intended, especially I'm speaking to Christians who may be still very confused on this.
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:40.880
Where does the discontentment come from?
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.199
Both men and women, where does it come from?
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:51.840
Maybe it's I I'm missing the this distinct role that God has for me as a man or as a woman.
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:56.880
And if I could re if I could understand that, what would it do to my life?
00:54:57.039 --> 00:55:06.800
And I I encourage every believer, men, women, married, unmarried, to pursue this and really begin to figure out what it is God has called us to.
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:18.800
Because this is a this is an attack, this is a big attack on scripture, but I'm gonna argue it's at the it's at the uh pinnacle of our problem in our society today, especially in America at least.
00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:24.800
Um, maybe everywhere, but in America specifically, the confusion is leading to so many problems.
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:26.480
And um, it's my plea.
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:30.559
But equal value does not require identical responsibilities, right?
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:32.880
And why can't we free ourselves from that?
00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:40.559
Let men be who God wanted men to be, be strong, be driven, um, work hard.
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:43.039
Let women be who God intended women to be.
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:51.440
That doesn't mean they can't work, that doesn't mean they can't contribute, that means they have a specific role in the family that God has called them to, and they've been gifted for that.
00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:54.400
And men have been gifted for the role that God created them to be.
00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:54.719
Yep.
00:55:54.880 --> 00:56:00.880
And so if if the two would be all that God wanted, you would see that the Bible makes absolutely sense.
00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:05.599
That his moral judgment in this particular area is perfect.
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:07.360
Yeah, agreed.
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:08.000
Yeah.
00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:12.800
Um, just as father and son are equal in nature, yet serve different roles in redemption.
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:21.920
Scripture presents a men and women is equally valuable, um, while uniquely designed to fulfill different roles and responsibilities.
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:28.880
And I think that that would free us and not I think it dismantles this attack, but I think it's so much more than that.
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:32.719
I think it's it's um our modern problem in our church today.
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:32.960
Yeah.
00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:40.880
And it could be uh the the key to changing um our testimony as a church, yeah, as a whole.
00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:48.480
But I think we already know this because when we have kids, we we treat our son differently than we treat our daughter.
00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:49.840
I've got a boy and a girl.
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:58.719
So I've I I never told my daughter, hey, you're gonna help me carry logs out in the back and so I can get them out of the yard.
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:03.760
I mean, unless you really wanted to, but I would ask my son first for like that heavy lifting, right?
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:08.079
So uh God, God has written this in in our hearts.
00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:10.960
So we we already know this, but I agree.
00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:15.840
We need we need to get into scripture scripture, get into a deeper uh definition of what those roles are.
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:19.679
And it's not offensive, it's just because that's the way God created men and women.
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:26.159
It's yeah, and thank God men don't have children because society would not be thriving, population would be going down.
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:28.400
So thank the Lord that He knew who to give that role to.
00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:32.960
Yeah, I think it's only offensive because of what society has done to the topic.
00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:43.360
Yeah, um, it shouldn't be offensive and it shouldn't be difficult for uh for uh fathers to say, I need to prepare my son to be a man.
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:46.400
It shouldn't be offensive, but it is.
00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:51.840
We're not allowed to tell our our boys that this is the expectation.
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:53.039
We're not allowed to do that.
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:54.960
And and I'm I'm speaking to Christians now.
00:57:55.039 --> 00:58:00.079
I I'm not gonna speak to the lunacy that's that's going on in our country, the far crazy side of this.
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:07.519
I'm speaking to just Christian homes who are still trying to figure out where the line is on this particular topic.
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:14.000
Why is it not okay to have your daughters be be ladies, right?
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:16.320
Define them in that role.
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:17.519
We're not allowed to.
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:22.639
We're being told, in fact, the opposite message, which is let them be whatever they want.
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:26.400
They have no role, no real defined purpose.
00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:28.079
Let them just be whatever.
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:29.760
Is that what God wants?
00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:32.079
Is that what you find in scripture?
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:32.559
Right.
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:46.000
No, and you know, I uh when I think back on our when we were, I mean, probably married for about seven years is when we found these resources that helped us walk into this.
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:47.679
Sorry.
00:58:47.920 --> 00:59:03.599
And um, I I I remember being uh reading about how um I I I remember I am stumbling because I'm remembering right now, but the idea of I didn't know in my life what what was I supposed to be doing?
00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:12.480
Like I I I am I supposed to um be working a job, having having some kind of career?
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:15.519
Am I supposed to be, you know, um serving at the church?
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:17.280
Am I supposed to be planting a garden?
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:22.320
Am I am I supposed to be uh, you know, watching children?
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:23.920
Am I supposed to be having children?
00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:25.360
Am I supposed to be, you know, homes?
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:27.119
What am I supposed to be doing?
00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:34.239
And and I remember when I started reading a very good book called it was there's two that we went through.
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:38.800
The one was called Feminine Appeal uh by Carolyn Mahoney, I think is her name.
00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:48.719
And she um she pointed out how one of the things is our as a as a wife to orient our life around our husband.
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:53.519
And that will determine what I'm supposed to do.
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.840
Such an offensive message, but it's so good because think about this.
00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:03.039
The the orienting my life around my husband meant what's important to him.
01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:04.320
That's what I should be doing.
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:07.119
So, okay, how do how do I how do I do that?
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:16.000
Well, just because um, you know, you know, somebody at church needs a meal cooked for them, and I know that my time, I can't do that.
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:22.320
Well, I'm not that my husband wouldn't want me to bring a meal to somebody, but he might prefer me to just go buy a meal.
01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:33.440
I don't have to spend five hours making that meal because in our life at the time, this is what was more important is that my my time was was geared towards something else.
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:38.719
I can still do this, but I'm gonna do it in a way that's gonna still benefit our family.
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:40.800
And that meant not spending so much time.
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:46.400
I could stop and get them something that was healthy and good, but not using four or five hours to do it.
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:58.000
So I mean, I know it's a very simple way of looking at something, but you know, orienting your or orienting your life around the the man that God gave you is actually a blessing.
01:00:58.159 --> 01:01:04.639
It gives you direction and it's uh it it fulfills that role that God has given us of being the helpmate to our husband.
01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:08.000
Like it was freeing, it's so practical, and that's just one of them.
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:10.079
So practical and so freeing.
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:10.960
I don't know.
01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:11.440
I love it.
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:13.199
I I can't say enough about it.
01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:14.159
It's awesome.
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:34.000
Yeah, I and I know we kind of just went on a bunny trail there, but I think it wraps into not only uh do we want to dismantle the argument that the Bible somehow um diminishes women, but I would argue it establishes direction that would unlock the secret.
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:41.760
The the competitiveness of it that's in your home that you don't even realize is there, that shouldn't be there, yeah, that goes away.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:43.199
Yeah, so many things.
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:47.440
Um it really deserves an entire podcast, to be honest with you.
01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:48.960
In fact, I'll just I'll end it with this.
01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:57.920
My thought on this was when we stepped into the church we're in right now, the thing that caught us the most is it was the first time I went into a Sunday school class, yeah, and it was all about the roles of men and women.
01:01:58.159 --> 01:01:59.679
I thought, okay, this is the place I want to be.
01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:00.559
It's really good.
01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:03.679
Um, because it it was so uncommon.
01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:06.719
Um so I hope that changes.
01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:11.199
Um, I don't think it is in on a common basis in churches, it should.
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:15.519
Um, if you're not in a church that's teaching this, that's the church you need to be in.
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:18.159
Um, because this is what's missing, things like this.
01:02:18.320 --> 01:02:20.559
But um, all right, we got to move on.
01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:24.079
Um, the Bible promotes let's just do one, let's just wrap this up with this next one.
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:26.239
The Bible promotes immoral things.
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.519
Um, what is our last eternal judgment argument?
01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:30.480
Eternal judgment.
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:30.880
Yep.
01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:36.480
So uh this one, there's a lot to say on this, so I I won't go too in depth.
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:40.719
But so the criticism how can a loving God send people to hell?
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:50.559
So you know, I've I've heard I I've heard that a lot, and I've heard a lot of the the arguments for and against that.
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:56.880
So, one, we have to remember God is eternal, so punishment is eternal.
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:03.360
But God has given you a life, whether that's 20 years, 80 years, he's given you a life.
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:10.000
And once again, this is his mercy, his patience for you to repent, come to know him.
01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:14.800
And there are even people that they hear God's word and they still reject it.
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:17.760
But God doesn't kill you right there, he doesn't get rid of that person.
01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:19.440
So this is patience.
01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:23.440
So once again, eternal God, eternal judgment.
01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:29.119
The other thing is He's He's not sending people to hell.
01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:38.320
There is a place that was created not for people at first, God created hell for the the angels that rebelled against him.
01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:40.079
That's what it was originally for.
01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:49.360
Because sin entered the world, man kind of got on that boat that's leading to the lake of fire.
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:49.760
Yeah.
01:03:50.559 --> 01:04:00.559
So that's yeah, so in and that's when you said God said that you will die, that that's the spiritual death that I think he was talking about in that statement in Genesis.
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:20.719
So now that we understand that part, we all are we're we're all born into that boat, we're all on the boat to hell, and it wasn't created for us, but because of our sinful nature and our rejection of him, that's where we go.
01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:31.360
Now, remember, and this is where I don't want to go too deep, but remember babies they don't go to hell, even though they're born into sin, but because they're not at the age of accountability, so please remember that, guys.
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:41.039
So that there's a there's a a very kind God that's not sending babies that have no way of asking for forgiveness and accepting him.
01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:42.800
So remember that we have a good God.
01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:43.599
It's really good.
01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:50.239
So people that have reached the age of accountability, they hear God's word and they're like, nah, not doing that.
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:55.280
I'm still gonna live a sinful life, I'm still gonna do whatever I want, selfish, apart from God.
01:04:55.440 --> 01:04:56.960
I don't want God in my life, right?
01:04:57.039 --> 01:04:59.440
That's the atheists and pretty much everyone else.
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:02.559
I don't want the God of the Bible in my life, willful rejection, right?
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:07.039
So they're saying to God, get out, don't be around me.
01:05:07.599 --> 01:05:08.880
That's what hell is.
01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:11.039
Hell is the absence of God.
01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:14.079
So you're you have chosen that, right?
01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:26.239
So I love that that that different way to look at it because it's not God sending you to hell, you are voluntarily saying, God, I don't want you in my life now or ever.
01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:30.559
And so God's putting you in a place where he's not there.
01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:35.119
And because he's not there, he's he's a God of love and structure and everything else.
01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:37.039
That's why that place is really bad.
01:05:37.119 --> 01:05:39.039
It doesn't have him there.
01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:49.280
So we have to remember that that God's not sending you to hell, you're volunteering for that by rejecting him and saying, I don't, I don't want you around me.
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:52.880
So, you know, MacArthur um talks about this.
01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:55.920
God is loving, God is holy, God is perfectly just.
01:05:56.320 --> 01:05:58.880
The perfectly just part is important.
01:05:59.360 --> 01:06:11.679
In the end, In Revelations, all people will thank God for His for Him being just and holy, and even for the people that were sent to hell because it was just.
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:14.079
So that's what hell demonstrates.
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:15.440
It's God's justice.
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:19.360
And the cross demonstrates his love.
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:25.920
And I've I've been thinking about this because Christ didn't just go to a cross.
01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:34.639
I mean, if if you haven't seen um uh the what is not not the case for Christ, but um the uh the movie where he go he goes to the cross.
01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:38.960
It depicts all of all of the things that led up to him going to the cross.
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:47.039
Not only did he die on the cross, he was punched, spit on, laughed at, mocked, tortured.
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:48.719
Yeah horrible things.
01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:53.440
So, and this is God of creation that created these people.
01:06:53.679 --> 01:06:56.800
He he created these people, and then they're doing this to him.
01:06:57.039 --> 01:06:59.679
He went through some horrible things, but that wasn't the worst of it.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:12.239
Is when he was hanging on the cross and he had to take God's punishment of sin for everybody that would be his, and and God turned away from him, right?
01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:14.800
And and that's when he says, Why have you forsaken me?
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:23.199
It's because now he was in a place without his father, yeah, and he's getting all of that punishment all at once, and none of us could have done that, right?
01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:24.480
No, he did that.
01:07:24.559 --> 01:07:28.159
So remember that the price was paid that that was paid was immense.
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:44.239
So that doesn't mean that um eternal judgment is God, God put it himself in place of that eternal judgment and felt what that eternal judgment is for us to be his, for us to be um ex uh saved.
01:07:44.400 --> 01:07:51.280
Yeah, so we have to remember that that the cross was a huge price to pay, and that demonstrates his love.
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:52.239
He didn't have to do that.
01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:55.440
He could have said, you know what, you guys, I'm done with you.
01:07:55.599 --> 01:07:57.360
I I'm not I'm not doing anything.
01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:03.519
Or he could, or I mean, not that that would be our God because he's he's much better than that, but God could have done something simple, right?
01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:07.519
And just said, Well, oh, you guys will still continue to sacrifice animals, right?
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:17.520
And maybe now you have to do two animals because he could have done something much different, but he did like the ultimate um act of love.
01:08:18.079 --> 01:08:19.119
Who would do that?
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:27.359
For if God didn't have love, he would not have gone on the cross and went through what he went through to um to die for us.
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:28.800
He shed his blood.
01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:34.800
I mean, he he was ripped open by these um by these devices that they were whipping him with.
01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:36.720
They had like these metal barbs in them.
01:08:37.119 --> 01:08:37.520
Horrible.
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:39.840
In in in Christ endured it.
01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:43.760
He he was the one that said, I'm going, he was the one that gave his life up.
01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:48.399
So he's there, like in a shape that none of us probably could have handled.
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:52.479
Pierced, right, on the cross, pulling himself up to take breaths.
01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:58.319
That was that was an amazing amount of strength because once you lose that strength, you you hang and you can't even breathe.
01:08:58.479 --> 01:08:58.640
Yeah.
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:02.880
So all of these things about him being on the cross and he did it out of love.
01:09:03.039 --> 01:09:07.600
And not once did he go, God, I'm not doing this anymore.
01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:08.960
He he said, Thy will be.
01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:09.680
He could have.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:10.239
He could have.
01:09:10.319 --> 01:09:14.079
He could have brought angels down to to wipe the people out that were down there mocking him.
01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:25.279
When I think about that stuff, I'm like, that that proves a lot to me of who God is in the ultimate price that was paid for me and for for my soul.
01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:28.000
I wish people would think about that a little bit more.
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:29.760
It's just not him being on the cross.
01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:32.000
There was a lot of things happening, yeah.
01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:33.279
That whole process.
01:09:33.439 --> 01:09:44.720
Yeah, and I think it's it's uh, you know, to to bring it back to this particular point or argument, it's why would God even create eternal judgment?
01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:45.520
Period.
01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:48.399
Why is it even an option, right?
01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:57.920
Um maybe it's an answer for the fear and anxiety in our in our in people in general, that that that there is an outcome in which they can't control.
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:07.199
Um, you know, I think again, we have to go back to the initial truth that we set out that God alone establishes what is morally true, right?
01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:08.880
What is morally right.
01:10:09.279 --> 01:10:14.239
And you really have to cling to that when it comes to eternal judgment, right?
01:10:14.399 --> 01:10:20.479
That God knows what must take place, you know, uh why sin was allowed in the garden.
01:10:20.800 --> 01:10:25.359
Um, these things are, I think, are so beyond the scope of our understanding.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:34.319
Right, you know, why didn't why why were why wasn't man and and woman designed in a way that he couldn't sin and just keep us from this, right?
01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:46.640
Well, clearly God wanted a relationship with mankind that made that a reality, a define stay out of this particular thing, and yet man couldn't do that.
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:50.319
But I say all that to say that we have to come back in this argument.
01:10:50.399 --> 01:10:58.000
Yes, you you you painted well the the portrait of of Christ and his work to redeem mankind from eternal judgment.
01:10:58.079 --> 01:10:58.239
Right.
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We know that Romans says that it's written on our hearts that through creation and all that we see, we that the truth is revealed to us.
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So no one is without excuse, right?
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We know that that's how the that's what the Bible defines for us.
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Now we understand the argument against this is we don't like that.
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We don't like that.
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We that makes us anxious and and that makes us angry, right?
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But that's not gonna change what is true, right?
01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:23.520
Right.
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I mean, all of us can be angry that we're headed towards death, physical death, but we can't stop it.
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I know mankind is searched for the the the you know, what is it, the fountain of youth of some kind because we we want to preserve our lives, we want to be in control of it, but we're not in control.
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God was creator, he establishes what is right and wrong, and unfortunately, based on sin, all we have is death.
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Thank God we have salvation.
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So, you know, I think it's important that we bring this back into the center perspective of what drives my relationship with God and what drives me to pursue God every day, it's because of this good news that Jesus has made a way for me and I choose life, eternal life.
01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:19.520
And it it clearly states that in God's goodness, he he wishes that all would come to the knowledge of the like it's so important.
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You know, when Jesus was looking over Jerusalem, he was weeping for those who wouldn't choose him.
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So it's it's I think we really do as humanity when we get to this point of being the judge instead of we place ourselves in a position where we feel we are so good and that when we look at God, He is not.
01:12:53.840 --> 01:13:09.359
Where does that where do we where do we get how do we get to that point where we look at ourselves, we must think very highly of ourselves to put ourselves in the judge in this in the judgment seat.
01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:20.640
Like we are we are casting judgment on God and saying you are not good because you are allowing this, yeah, versus us putting ourselves in the in the correct place.
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There's a a real uh pride when we think ourselves higher than we ought to.
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Yeah, and there's something to do with that.
01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:31.520
That pride is the first sin, right?
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That ever I mean, Satan, that's what he said, I will exalt to the highest place, I will become like God.
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And so we are Yeah, there's a presumption in that that says my morality is greater than God's.
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I'm good.
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I would rather everyone be good, and that's my morality, therefore, God is He's lesser than me.
01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:54.720
I mean, that's the argument, right?
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I mean, why not just give everyone a pass and let everyone go into heaven, right?
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That's my morality, it's better than God's morality, therefore, man is supreme.
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And that's the argument.
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Yeah.
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Well, but God did.
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So that's why I want to go in such detail with the cross.
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That was God's pass.
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So the eternal judgment, yeah, that is harsh, but God went through something just as harsh to give us freedom.
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So so the cross is God's answer to the question of hell.
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That that was his response, right?
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And so his just his justice now is fully satisfied, his love was fully displayed, and his invitation invitation was extended to all.
01:14:34.399 --> 01:14:39.520
That's beautiful, and that's so the eternal um punishment topic.
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If you understand the cross and what was done, there's not much of an argument anymore that that's too harsh.
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That's that is just.
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God took the place of that.
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You you now have a you now have a path to to heaven, and it's through Christ and what he did on the cross.
01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:07.199
So, but so if if you say, Well, I'm not doing that, and then you end up in hell, does that mean that you you weren't supposed to be there?
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I mean, that's what that's what people have to think through that that say that this is unjust.
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Let's talk about it, let's explain.
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And you know, this this is this is not a uh factual type thing to convince people, it's really a spiritual thing, but still you give them God's word and let them chew on it.
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So those who reject Christ don't experience a failure of God's love, they experience the just justice he came to save them from.
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That is beautiful.
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Save them from.
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So when we're born, we're all destined for hell, um, especially you know, once we get to the age of accountability.
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So he is saving us from that.
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So yeah, here's what's interesting the Bible as a whole, all all the books, it's one progressive story of salvation, yeah, one cohesive story through history of God's work of salvation for mankind.
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Yeah, it's it's I find it ironic that the attack would be God is so mean that he brings eternal punishment to people, when in fact, the entirety of the Bible itself is the message of good news.
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It's a message of hope, it's a message of mercy and grace.
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That is literally the message and the hope for believers and those who call himself, call themselves followers of Christ, that we've been given an inheritance.
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Yeah, like that is the entire message of the Bible that we don't do.
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So, as Christians discredit this attack when people say he's just harsh and he doesn't care, the entirety of scripture says opposite.
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He absolutely cares, he's done everything to give a lifeline to humanity, to people, everywhere, every person.
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Um, and so that's the hope that we we have.
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That's why we proclaim the good news.
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Yeah, um, so I dismantle this idea that there's somehow immoral, there's an immoral nature of God because he's established eternal judgment.
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Eternal judgment comes from those who reject him.
01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:10.239
Yep, outright reject him.
01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:20.960
Well, and sin entered the world through hum through man, and then God immediately enacts the savior.
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Immediately like sin was not his choice, was not his doing.
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Everything he made was perfect, everything he made was good.
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Man messed it up.
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Man messed it up, yeah.
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He then puts into place the the saving plan to save humanity, and then he also is then yelled at that he hasn't.
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Well, and I like how John MacArthur says it.
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He you know, the act of of you know sin coming into the world through, you know, Adam and Eve, that this was the plan to completely burn out sin.
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Burn out sin.
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Yeah, yes, to let it run its course and put the final you know nail in the coffin on sin as a whole.
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And I I think that that's one healthy way to look at it.
01:18:09.039 --> 01:18:10.640
That you know, why did he allow it?
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Well, there's so many truths to that, but what God's plan is is to seal it forever.
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Yeah, because if he would have I mean that's beautiful being all-knowing, if he would have fought it or tried to kill it off, like this is just start over, it then what does that say to his creation or to even the angels who are outside of that?
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Well, you know, he's not, you know, what he he's afraid of it.
01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:47.199
He's you know, what would have come from that kind of you know, God knows what was best and he allowed it.
01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:48.800
Yep, that's what we got to remember.
01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:50.159
Great discussion, guys.
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I I think every accusation that God is immoral assumes there's an objective standard of morality.
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Yeah, and I think that we need to keep that in mind.
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I hope this discussion has kind of highlighted that, and I think hopefully it brings it to the surface in our hearts and minds.
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And um, the Bible agrees, but it teaches that this standard is not found in culture or human opinion, that it it is in God alone um that we find this objective morality is grounded in the holy and unchanging character of God.
01:19:20.720 --> 01:19:27.279
And if I could say anything to identify that, pursue who God is, discover who God is.
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Like He He reveals Himself in the Bible.
01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:33.600
Might be a really good podcast is going through the attributes of God.
01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:34.479
Uh absolutely.
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I I think it's also missing in the church today, but but that comes through that steady, constant study of scripture.
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He reveals his nature, he reveals who he is, even in the old testament, I think in dramatic ways.
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But be firm in the New Testament.
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I think I encourage people to really understand the good news of the gospel before you even really dive into the Old Testament.
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But I just I think it's important for us to emphasize as we just wrap this up that it is God's rightful position to establish moral truth.
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And as Christians, we've got to cling to that.
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And I think maybe fiercely in today's culture, we just we can't have any um, there can be no room for accommodations.
01:20:20.560 --> 01:20:24.079
And even when it feels like it's cruel, right?
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People, I think the world wants us to feel that God is cruel by the things that he's established.
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And I think it only comes from a persistent understanding of the character of God and and the love in encouraging people to see the truth that we just highlighted, um, that he's done everything in his mercy and his grace to redeem mankind.
01:20:44.479 --> 01:20:45.039
Absolutely.
01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:48.079
Um, so I encourage you to look at that.
01:20:48.159 --> 01:20:52.079
Um, Deuteronomy 32, 4, all his ways are justice.
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I love that.
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Um, so that's our encouragement today.
01:20:55.199 --> 01:20:56.800
I I think this was a great discussion.
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Yeah, hopefully, yeah.
01:20:58.399 --> 01:20:59.680
So three more topics too.
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We have one more podcast to finish out, I thought I guess our uh attack on the Bible, and then we're gonna move on to some other stuff, which will be exciting.
01:21:07.760 --> 01:21:08.000
Yep.
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Um, I know next week we're talking about um work, what it is to um be a uh a work workman for God in today's society.
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We're gonna talk about some topics on that.
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But anyway, thank you for joining us, and uh, this was a great discussion.
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Yeah, have a good one.
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Thank you guys.