Why corporate affairs pros want change, with GlobeScan's Chris Coulter

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Welcome to the Earned First podcast. My name is
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Arun Sudhaman. I'm founding editor at Earned First
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and very happy to be joined on the podcast today
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by the CEO of Globescan, Chris Coulter. Chris,
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welcome. Hi, Arun. Thanks for having me. It's
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a pleasure. We've been trying to get you on,
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I think, for a while, but time zones are not
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necessarily that helpful. You are sitting in
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Canada, I believe. That's right. Outside of Toronto.
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Yep. Right. And I am in India, of course. So,
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yeah, definitely appreciate you finding the time
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to do this. And, of course, the main reason that
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we've wanted to get you on this podcast is to
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talk about the Oxford Globe Scan Global Corporate
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Affairs Survey report, of which we are big fans.
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I think it's really vital research. It polls
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almost 300 senior corporate affairs professionals
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across 51 countries. And is this the seventh
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edition? I think it's the seventh year. Yeah,
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we started a little bit on our own for a year
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or two and then met Rupert Younger at the Corporate
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Affairs Academy at the Said School in Oxford.
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And he was also thinking of wanting to do something
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similar and then we sort of joined forces. But
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yeah, it's been a good run of years and it feels
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like we're just building enough momentum, especially
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having a bit of a balance of regional representation
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from different parts of the world, which is,
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as you know, is so interesting and important
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to get out of our own heads and what's happening
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in different regions. No question. It's one of
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the things I like. in particular about the report
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is that it is very global. It's also quite, how
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shall I put it? It's sober in a way that... Dull?
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Sobering, maybe. It's, well, you know, there's...
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there's a lot of corporate affairs research at
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the moment i don't know when you started this
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seven years ago if there was quite as much i
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know there wasn't you're right and yeah why what
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what's why the explosion what's happening do
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you think what's the it's an interesting question
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and i was reading another newsletter from um
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a friend of mine helen dunn in london who writes
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the corporate affairs unpacked newsletter and
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she was she made the observation that she doesn't
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She's pointed out that there are so many corporate
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affairs, corporate comms, surveys, and all of
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them are asking not the same questions, but often
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I do think that the angle maybe reveals something
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about why there are so many. A lot of it does
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seem to revolve around proving how valuable the
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function is, and I do think maybe this is a function
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that does still need, is still searching. Yeah,
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yeah, yeah. A little bit of validation. I think
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that's true. And I think the parallel, we do
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quite a bit of work with sustainability functions
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too. And the parallel with the sustainability
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function justifying itself, proving its value.
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There are parallels with the corporate affairs
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function. I think the corporate affairs function
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has been more established than the sustainability
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one. But those ups and downs that sustainability
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teams have experienced, I think also. similar
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to the patterns corporate affairs folks and like
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everything it seems to be what's the business
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case for these things and how do we prove our
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worth and there's the defensive mentality so
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maybe in those moments people are looking for
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fruit points or rallying together or you know
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reinforcing that oh no we actually are valuable
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contributors to the enterprise and things like
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that Indeed, yeah. And I suppose it's also maybe
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just a reflection of a time -honored PR tactic.
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Yeah, true, true. Get the research report out.
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A lot of it is driven by agencies, and so for
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them it's a business development tool as well.
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Right, yeah. But I think I counted, I saw someone
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had flagged one report for every month of this
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year. so far. And I actually think that wasn't
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even exhaustive. I think there was even more
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than that. So I suspect there's at least, you
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know, at least eight to 10 from this year alone.
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But let's talk about the Globescan Oxford report
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because that I feel is, in my opinion anyway,
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I think it's head and shoulders above some of
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the other studies out there. And it does also
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have the benefit of longevity, which is really
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helpful. Some of the key findings that I'm very
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keen to discuss with you on this podcast, particularly
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because they, you know, impact Asia Pacific perhaps
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more than other regions. But first amongst those
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is that three quarters of all respondents, I
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think 74%, believe corporate affairs needs some
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form of revision. With more than one in six.
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17 % calling for a radical rethink. And that
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desire for change is highest amongst Asia Pacific
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respondents. 92 % of corporate affairs leaders
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in Asia Pacific believe the function needs some
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form of revision. So Chris, what do those findings
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tell you? Yeah, I mean, let's... We'll talk about
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Asia Pacific in a second, but overall, you're
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right. It's a dramatic finding that there's a
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sense of dissatisfaction within corporate affairs
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practitioners and teams, I think, as to the direction
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of travel. The drivers of that dissatisfaction,
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I think, are multifaceted. In many ways, it's
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just harder. It's just that the world has gotten
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much less predictable. As we know, the VUCA -ization
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of what's happening is really happening much
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more than I think even the original conception
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of VUCA. So it's hard. It's a very difficult
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environment. The geopolitics, the geoeconomics,
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all are relatively... new thrusts after, what,
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almost three decades of pretty consistent understanding
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of how the multilateral globalization system
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works. And that's all been thrown up in the air,
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of course, now. So that makes it more challenging.
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So I think corporate affairs professionals are
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feeling more challenged, perhaps needing more
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approaches and tools to do their job effectively.
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reimagine a future fit corporate affairs function.
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What do we need to do? And I think some of it
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is the, as we were talking before, there's a
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little bit of business case justification delivering
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value in some ways, but then I think the advent
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of the geopolitics, the AI revolution. I think
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the demands for growth within so many companies
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and proving your worth and can you not just be
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involved in risk mitigation, but actually contributing
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to the financial success of the organization.
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Those are all not completely novel, but I think
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they all peaked at the same time, which makes
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it difficult. People are searching for how do
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we sort this function out going forward so that
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we can actually deliver on those objectives.
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Indeed, it does suggest that maybe the original
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conception of the corporate affairs function,
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which probably hasn't changed that much in 50
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-odd years, is perhaps not fit for purpose. And
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of course, the impact of AI on the skills required
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and the kind of work that's maybe being automated.
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will have some impact as well. I thought it was
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an encouraging finding, though, that there is
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a desire for change. Would you agree? I think
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so. I think it tells us that collectively people
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are interested in new ideas and new approaches.
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So it's a teachable moment, which these things
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don't always happen. So we're all collectively
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looking for, oh, what's a... what's some novel
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or different thinking that we can apply. So that's
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exciting. So it suggests there's lots of innovation
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that will take place in corporate affairs functions.
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I think there's probably innovation both on how
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you build a function and then how you... how
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you approach the world, you know, like how do
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you actually engage externally? And what was
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interesting in the findings too, Aru, I don't
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know if you know this, but we'd asked these,
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you know, very simple questions at the front,
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kind of open -ended. What's the biggest risk
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-facing business? What's the biggest opportunity
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-facing business? And on the risk side, it's
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geopolitics, but then increasingly AI, which
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is new this year, quite a spike. On the upside,
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it was all around digitization and AI last year
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and this year. And so we see this. A year ago,
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it was like, oh, you know, AI is really exciting.
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We can dig into it. And now there's a sense,
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wait a minute, AI is actually a big risk that
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we have to manage because of deep fakes and the
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speed within which communications travel and
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how content is generated. So all of this means
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we're like, OK, it's a different world. Where
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are some new interesting ideas and approaches
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and how can we identify emerging practice that
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could be adopted by corporate affairs teams?
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I think that's the exciting part. Yeah, it's
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a really good point. AI jumps to become the second
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ranked amongst leading concerns at 44 % up from
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just 17 % last year. Again, I would suggest that's
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not necessarily a bad thing. The reality is catching
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up. with the hype. Fewer than one in five, 18
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% believe their function is prepared to manage
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AI -driven misinformation. That was quite a startling
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finding. Did that surprise you at all? Totally.
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And I think the speed with which compared to
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a year ago, these kind of findings were all of
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a sudden the risks are magnified, quite dramatic.
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And I think that, you know, in last year's work
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we did, we saw that the integration of AI or
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the adoption of AI in teams was pretty superficial,
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you know, helping me write a speech or do a bit
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of desk research and things like that. So there
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wasn't, and I think this is the story of AI a
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little bit across, I mean, recently there was
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a statistic that only 6%. companies have integrated
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AI in such a way that they're more productive.
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The productivity gains, I think, take decades
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almost for these technologies. So we're still
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early in many of these ways, but all of a sudden,
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in that early time, we're also seeing the negative
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potential impacts of this technology, and it'll
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be a wild ride. Yeah, and just concerns. A lot
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of A lot of people who I think are just in the
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dark about what might come next, what might happen
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next. You know, I talk to a lot of corporate
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affairs people and agency people and there's
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still, I think, a reasonable amount of intimidation
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out there just in terms of what AI might mean
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and, you know, just wildly varying levels of
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readiness. for what the technology is doing and
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might do. What's your take around, given your
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deep experience in the field and with these kind
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of communications, corporate affairs, PR folks,
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I mean, is that mindset lend itself to adopting
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technology at this kind of pace? Because I asked
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the question, because in the research, it shows
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that there's, yes, the sense of AI being quite
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a dominant thematic, but also at the same time,
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an increasing sense that we have to talk to real
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stakeholders. The engagement part of corporate
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affairs is also increasingly important. And comms
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people are very people -centric. They're very
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people people. So is it easy for people like
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them, like us, to adopt AI? i wouldn't say this
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is an industry that necessarily has a great track
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record when it comes to technology um in general
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and even digitization i think yeah yeah if you
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go back it's 20 years now pretty much when social
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media hit like really hit and of course you you
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saw a lot of the same type you will you may remember
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you saw a lot of the same types of coverage about
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how you know this is the this is a great moment
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a great opportunity for the comms world right
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because um you know it's all about earned it's
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all about word of mouth it's all about third
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-party advocacy but those things didn't necessarily
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play out and one of the factors in that was that
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it did take a long time for both i think agencies
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and in -house functions to get to grips with
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technology like you said this was a this is isn't
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or was at least a sector that was i think more
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built around relationships yeah um you know and
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more qualitative uh types of engagement which
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is not necessarily a bad thing and and you know
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definitely not something they should lose sight
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of but yeah i think the emergence of ai now is
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um the industry is definitely better prepared
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for it than it would have been um say a decade
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ago but um it's steep and it's not always you
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know it's not the first place that companies
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will be looking when they are thinking about
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where they need to invest in terms of new technology
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so i think yeah all of these things pose certain
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types of challenges um i will say i've been more
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encouraged on the agency side though i feel like
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they have got to grips with it i think a lot
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more quickly than perhaps um Agencies did when
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social media came around. So the adoption curve
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is faster in this round, you think, of this new
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technology? I think so. Yeah. I do think so.
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I think that there's, you know, many agencies
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I think have been quite quick to move in terms
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of AI. And maybe that's just because it's easier
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to get to grips with. I don't know. I'm just
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thinking aloud here. Or maybe it's because, They
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have taken on the experiences from previous waves
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of technology. And back to your question. Sorry
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to ask a question of you. No, it's fine. But
00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:49.100
we referenced the fact that, or you referenced
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the fact that in the research, corporate affairs
00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:55.360
professionals in Asia Pacific were feeling especially
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a sense that it's a time for revising the approach
00:16:00.139 --> 00:16:03.860
to corporate affairs. And what, you know, you're
00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:06.419
in Asia and you spend a lot of time in Asia.
00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.059
Why? What's your sense of why? Why is that more
00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:11.259
heightened in Asia Pacific than other regions
00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:14.659
from the research? Yeah, why is the desire for
00:16:14.659 --> 00:16:18.720
change more in Asia? Probably because, probably,
00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:23.840
if we're being, you know, take a fairly straightforward
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.480
view of it, probably because functions in Asia
00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:33.129
are, you know, attract less investment have you
00:16:33.129 --> 00:16:40.889
know have fewer people um and are often um you
00:16:40.889 --> 00:16:45.090
know fighting harder for that kind of recognition
00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:50.049
and in in order in in terms of being able to
00:16:50.049 --> 00:16:55.049
prove that value so yeah i think that when you
00:16:55.049 --> 00:16:58.440
look at the world as a whole you probably look
00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:01.480
at Asia and the corporate affairs. I wouldn't
00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.019
say it's marginalized in Asia by any means, but
00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:08.359
it's not perhaps as well -funded or as central
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:12.359
as it is perhaps in North America and Europe.
00:17:13.180 --> 00:17:16.319
That's my initial thinking. I would love to see
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.900
more research on that. One other finding to that
00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:23.140
point, which is kind of also relevant, is that
00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:27.220
the... desire for change is highest in asia pacific
00:17:27.220 --> 00:17:32.500
but um people want more modest change than they
00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:36.380
do in other regions so i think in um if you dig
00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:37.940
a little deeper into the results you find that
00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:41.420
people want more radical change elsewhere and
00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:46.230
they want more modest change in asia so And that
00:17:46.230 --> 00:17:48.329
in a way is I feel like they want change, but
00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:50.390
they don't really want to necessarily jeopardize
00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:55.769
too much at the same time. But yeah, it's definitely
00:17:55.769 --> 00:17:57.970
an interesting one. Another thing I wanted to
00:17:57.970 --> 00:18:01.089
ask you about is the biggest risk you identified.
00:18:01.230 --> 00:18:04.569
And the report describes it as geo -economic
00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:08.089
risk. So not exactly geopolitical. And was there
00:18:08.089 --> 00:18:11.849
a reason why you... Just in terms of the semantics
00:18:11.849 --> 00:18:16.289
there? Well, the geopolitics are high and they've
00:18:16.289 --> 00:18:18.950
been high for a while as a sort of risk. And
00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:21.869
we're all trying to manage the... And you can
00:18:21.869 --> 00:18:24.150
think of in the corporate affairs function, especially
00:18:24.150 --> 00:18:27.009
the government affairs role, how challenging
00:18:27.009 --> 00:18:31.829
it is with this idea of nearshoring and cold
00:18:31.829 --> 00:18:37.059
wars and just the volatility in... And the blowing
00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:39.799
up of the system and, you know, as Mark Carney
00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.259
said, fragmented geometry is the way forward.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.420
So it makes it much more complicated rather than
00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:47.980
here's where we're going, everyone. So I think
00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:51.000
there's that. But then we also saw in the data
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:54.400
a subtle but a sense of other aspects that fit
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.700
into the geoeconomics, you know, the tariffs
00:18:56.700 --> 00:19:00.670
that are being applied as well. The sort of power
00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:05.190
games behind who owns AI, where data center is
00:19:05.190 --> 00:19:07.190
going, how those investments are playing out.
00:19:08.109 --> 00:19:10.609
Some of the leverage around critical minerals
00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:17.509
that we've seen and rare earths that have transpired.
00:19:17.569 --> 00:19:20.230
So all of those things in the supply chain aspects
00:19:20.230 --> 00:19:24.190
are, I think. adding you know even more to the
00:19:24.190 --> 00:19:26.809
brew that we're trying to trying to stir through
00:19:26.809 --> 00:19:30.509
so we see it's not just the politics that with
00:19:30.509 --> 00:19:32.630
a capital p there's some other things that are
00:19:32.630 --> 00:19:36.509
coming around where lots of zero -sum you know
00:19:36.509 --> 00:19:38.910
thinking and approaches makes it more challenging
00:19:38.910 --> 00:19:41.069
if you're a global company and with a very big
00:19:41.069 --> 00:19:43.569
supply chain and you're operating on all regions
00:19:43.569 --> 00:19:45.710
of the world it's you know it's a it's a crazy
00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:50.049
patchwork it's um yeah it's such a significant
00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:53.470
shift because And maybe, I don't know if you
00:19:53.470 --> 00:19:56.769
have this data to hand, but I can remember when,
00:19:56.869 --> 00:20:00.769
not in this root survey specifically, but just
00:20:00.769 --> 00:20:04.410
in this kind of research in general, geopolitics
00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:07.269
wouldn't even be in the top five. No, yeah, totally.
00:20:07.829 --> 00:20:11.730
Yeah, yeah, no, it was pretty solid and stable.
00:20:13.169 --> 00:20:16.930
And that is a significant shift. And I do think
00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:19.549
this, you know, we do public opinion research
00:20:19.549 --> 00:20:22.549
too and other kind of stakeholder research. But
00:20:22.549 --> 00:20:24.809
one of the thematics from all of the research
00:20:24.809 --> 00:20:28.970
that we do and how it's shifted is this growing
00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:31.759
sense of insecurity. If you're in the corporate
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.200
affairs function or a different function in a
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.680
company, you're feeling less clear and less secure
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:39.619
about what your job is and what you need to do
00:20:39.619 --> 00:20:42.640
and how you get the outcomes that you're trying
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:47.259
to achieve. It's true for civil society. You
00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:49.960
can see NGOs across the world really feeling
00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.279
less certain about their role. Their effectiveness
00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:57.440
seems to have declined quite substantially. When
00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.500
you look at multilateral organizations, they're
00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:02.000
in a pickle. I mean, the UN system is really
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.720
having a difficult time trying to live its mandate.
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.960
And then even the general public, we see this
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:10.539
almost like an epidemic of feelings of insecurity
00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:14.440
across the world. And again, from very different.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.240
you know reasons there's economic insecurity
00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.259
there's technological insecurity you can see
00:21:20.259 --> 00:21:23.299
the pushback around ai and data centers in the
00:21:23.299 --> 00:21:26.720
us and the primary the primaries that have taken
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:29.180
place leading up to the midterm elections it's
00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:31.920
extraordinary how top of mind and how central
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:35.119
the conversation of data centers is and all of
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.680
the symbolism related to it i think and so you
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.759
have that you have the this insecurity of just
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.650
cost of living you have insecurity climate Automatically,
00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:47.150
people increasingly feel something's weird going
00:21:47.150 --> 00:21:49.710
on with the planet. You can see the extreme heat
00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:52.029
that's transpiring in different parts of the
00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:54.690
world. I was talking to someone in Dubai this
00:21:54.690 --> 00:21:59.920
morning. It's 52 degrees in Dubai. And it's been
00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:04.039
a week of that. So it's insane. And then you
00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:05.859
also have this political instability that people
00:22:05.859 --> 00:22:07.660
get. You know, where are leaders? What are they
00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:10.059
saying? Where's the consistency? So we are in
00:22:10.059 --> 00:22:13.059
a time of great instability after a time of relative
00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:16.460
dramatic stability. And I think this throws up
00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:19.519
like, OK, well, we need new approaches, new ideas.
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:21.500
And that's the good side. The other side is that
00:22:21.500 --> 00:22:24.519
people are all feeling, you know, less. They're
00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.000
feeling more risk averse, which makes it harder
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.759
to. do things like adopt new AI or be bold on
00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:35.380
the AI agenda. And yeah, it's all part of one
00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:38.940
sense of, you know, who we are, where we belong,
00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:41.000
what's our future going to be, who do we trust,
00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:44.799
all those very human, you know, Odyssean, I just
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:46.819
saw the Odyssey a couple of days ago. So thinking
00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:50.220
of how human that story is, it's recurring. And
00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:53.039
now we've got fancy technology on top of it,
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.750
but it's the same kind of stuff. I mean, I watched
00:22:56.750 --> 00:22:58.930
it a couple of weeks ago, and yeah, the parallels
00:22:58.930 --> 00:23:03.309
with today are quite striking, are they not?
00:23:05.309 --> 00:23:08.650
Governance has overtaken environment and social
00:23:08.650 --> 00:23:12.589
as the leading ESG reputation risk, particularly
00:23:12.589 --> 00:23:15.809
in the global south. What do you make of that
00:23:15.809 --> 00:23:22.109
finding, I wonder? I think this is part and parcel
00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:24.190
when we're talking about ESG or sustainability.
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:30.339
That there's a very strong zeitgeist in the corporate
00:23:30.339 --> 00:23:34.819
sustainability agenda to prove worth, kind of
00:23:34.819 --> 00:23:36.420
like corporate affairs, but I think even more
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:39.660
heightened. And the business case, what's the
00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.980
business value of sustainability? And in that
00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:48.680
context, I think the way you do that is less
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:53.140
necessarily proving performance changes on particular
00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:57.680
issues. And getting, sorting things out so it
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.740
actually does deliver value. And I think that's
00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:05.720
where governance is so needed. And what we, and
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:07.920
I think it's true, it's very true with corporate
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:09.900
affairs and they work together, right? These
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.299
two functions quite often, sustainability functions
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:15.190
and corporate affairs functions. It's all about
00:24:15.190 --> 00:24:18.910
integration. A corporate affairs team or a sustainability
00:24:18.910 --> 00:24:22.609
team does not create value on its own. It's its
00:24:22.609 --> 00:24:26.809
ability to integrate to other functions and business
00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:29.430
units. And that's where the value is realized.
00:24:30.049 --> 00:24:33.990
So this is, I think, much more broadly understood.
00:24:34.150 --> 00:24:36.529
And so therefore, if we're integrating, then
00:24:36.529 --> 00:24:39.089
we need the mechanisms to do that. And that's
00:24:39.089 --> 00:24:42.099
where governance, I think, comes in. It also
00:24:42.099 --> 00:24:46.420
does respond directly to the compliance agenda
00:24:46.420 --> 00:24:52.119
and the growing set of regulations that are also
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:56.359
patchwork, but have been proliferating over the
00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.799
number of years. And they're mostly disclosure
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:03.079
related, but still it causes organizations a
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:07.380
lot of... angst to deliver and do the reporting
00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:09.579
and the data management and the disclosure and
00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:11.720
so that the governance again is required. So
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:16.640
I think it's just a reaction to the moment. Yeah.
00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:25.220
How significant is the decline in both corporate
00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:29.539
purpose in terms of I think it's described in
00:25:29.539 --> 00:25:33.200
terms of executive committee discussion only
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.039
less than a third report increased discussion
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.539
of corporate purpose in the past year down sharply
00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:43.099
from 45 percent in 2025 particularly north america
00:25:43.099 --> 00:25:45.839
and europe and of course you also are seeing
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.140
governance has overtaken environments of you
00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:50.880
know by implication environment has become perhaps
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.119
less important and i know you do a lot of sustainability
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:58.720
um research as well what do we make of all of
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.130
these trends is it as simple as as green hushing?
00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:05.450
I think it's a lot to do with green hushing.
00:26:05.769 --> 00:26:09.130
And the cause of green hushing has a couple of
00:26:09.130 --> 00:26:12.269
different drivers of it. One is that there are
00:26:12.269 --> 00:26:16.529
more laws and regulations in certain jurisdictions
00:26:16.529 --> 00:26:19.109
against green hushing. So it's the law. So you're
00:26:19.109 --> 00:26:22.650
exposed with fines and reputational damage if
00:26:22.650 --> 00:26:25.130
you don't adhere. But the other is the political
00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:29.789
risk. And the tea leaves in this time of polarization
00:26:29.789 --> 00:26:34.789
and debates as to what really matters and the
00:26:34.789 --> 00:26:39.730
anti -ESG backlash, mostly driven out of Washington,
00:26:39.930 --> 00:26:43.289
but not exclusively. It's bleeding into other
00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:46.069
parts of the world, too. So I think that that
00:26:46.069 --> 00:26:49.450
has made companies very cautious. You know, they've
00:26:49.450 --> 00:26:51.809
communicated less on things like sustainability
00:26:51.809 --> 00:26:54.410
or purpose because they don't want to be caught
00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:58.150
out. I think it's also, you know, I think there
00:26:58.150 --> 00:27:02.470
was inflation on the purpose conversation and
00:27:02.470 --> 00:27:04.569
the sustainability conversation. It was easy
00:27:04.569 --> 00:27:09.150
to say, oh, you know, purpose matters more than
00:27:09.150 --> 00:27:12.230
anything else or sustainability. And we go back
00:27:12.230 --> 00:27:17.859
to the heyday. What is it? 2018, 2017, when the
00:27:17.859 --> 00:27:20.299
business roundtable in the U .S. really put a
00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:22.660
stake in the ground saying purpose is as important
00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:27.019
as financial success. But nothing transpired
00:27:27.019 --> 00:27:29.160
really from it. So it was very easy to say, but
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:32.559
hard to implement. So we can see from the research,
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.579
there's an ongoing consistent level like, no,
00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:36.819
no, my company has a purpose. We've got a purpose
00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:39.480
statement. But as you pointed out, the degree
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.200
to which that purpose is being operationalized
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:45.059
or being brought to life or shaping decision
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:50.039
making has lessened. And I do feel like we're
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.200
in this mode of, you know, it's much more pragmatic.
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:56.519
It's more transactional. It's more tactical than
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:01.019
these big sweeping conversations we had. five,
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:04.039
six years ago, sort of, you know, before and
00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:07.980
during the pandemic. And how do we make sense
00:28:07.980 --> 00:28:10.900
of that, you know, post this sort of sense? I
00:28:10.900 --> 00:28:14.900
think that there, you know, there was a lot of
00:28:14.900 --> 00:28:20.680
grandstanding. Was the research or the articulation
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:26.779
of the value of purpose overemphasized? Maybe,
00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:29.359
but I don't know. I think the core aspects of
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.269
it. we're all long -term. If you have a purposeful
00:28:32.269 --> 00:28:34.730
organization and people get excited and they're
00:28:34.730 --> 00:28:36.950
focused and it makes better decisions in the
00:28:36.950 --> 00:28:39.630
long run, then I think all of those things stick.
00:28:39.950 --> 00:28:43.809
It's just that there's been such a short -terming
00:28:43.809 --> 00:28:48.329
of approaches, of objectives, and we're all reacting,
00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:51.109
right? And that's part of that insecurity. We're
00:28:51.109 --> 00:28:53.349
not in control, so we're constantly reacting.
00:28:53.809 --> 00:28:56.410
And I think at a time like this, it's hard to...
00:28:56.670 --> 00:28:59.309
to really embrace the long term or even the medium
00:28:59.309 --> 00:29:02.609
term. And I think that's where it breaks down.
00:29:02.670 --> 00:29:04.589
Purpose and sustainability makes sense in the
00:29:04.589 --> 00:29:07.450
medium and long term. In the short term, if you're
00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:10.529
next quarter, you can always kick it to the side
00:29:10.529 --> 00:29:13.250
and be peripheral. And if the signals from investors
00:29:13.250 --> 00:29:17.029
and regulators are growth at all costs in the
00:29:17.029 --> 00:29:20.509
short term, that's how we get to where we are.
00:29:21.829 --> 00:29:27.660
Indeed. To end, I wanted to ask you about value
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:31.140
because so many of these discussions and this
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:35.059
research comes back to the value that the corporate
00:29:35.059 --> 00:29:39.279
affairs function delivers. Less than one in six
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:42.480
in the study, 15%, believe the function influences
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.000
business value across the whole chain. So that's
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:50.339
one thing. But then what really amazed me is
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.019
that... Fewer than half of companies formally
00:29:54.019 --> 00:29:58.119
measure corporate affairs impact. More than 1
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:02.900
in 10, 11%, don't know whether it's being measured
00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:09.559
or not. And for those that are measuring, it's
00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:13.720
the kind of usual story. Three quarters are relying
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:18.029
on media performance metrics. ahead of reputation,
00:30:18.410 --> 00:30:20.930
trust tracking, stakeholder sentiment, employee
00:30:20.930 --> 00:30:26.670
engagement, public policy outcomes. Is that an
00:30:26.670 --> 00:30:29.390
improvement or is it just staggering? It's the
00:30:29.390 --> 00:30:32.069
first time we asked that particular question.
00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:35.150
We were also staggered with that, and I feel
00:30:35.150 --> 00:30:38.230
very naive. We work with lots of corporate affairs
00:30:38.230 --> 00:30:40.930
teams and functions and stuff. So I should know
00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:44.430
better. But to the fact that only half of companies
00:30:44.430 --> 00:30:48.569
are formally measuring success, which is broadly
00:30:48.569 --> 00:30:51.250
defined. So it's also, you know, there are some
00:30:51.250 --> 00:30:53.390
fuzzy elements in there. They're more anecdotal
00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:56.329
and, you know, sort of getting talking to my
00:30:56.329 --> 00:30:59.289
stakeholders, getting feedback versus more formalized
00:30:59.289 --> 00:31:06.759
media tracking and reputation. metrics on reputation
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:09.759
tracking and things like that, still half aren't.
00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:14.660
And so you think that adage of you can only manage
00:31:14.660 --> 00:31:19.299
what you can measure, if it is a formalization
00:31:19.299 --> 00:31:22.200
of the function and trying to prove worth and
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.180
delivery, then there's a gap we have. If you
00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:28.000
have a skeptical board member or a skeptical
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.220
CEO saying, what's the value of this? And we
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:35.700
can't prove or show it. It puts us on the back
00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:42.599
foot for sure. We do a lot of reputation research
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:47.079
for clients. It's costly. It takes time. In a
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:49.700
hyper -quick world, it's sometimes difficult
00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:53.539
to deliver on the short -term needs. I understand
00:31:53.539 --> 00:31:56.319
that people are searching for different approaches
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:02.009
to try and fill some of those gaps. I think it
00:32:02.009 --> 00:32:04.829
just suggests we need to mature the organization
00:32:04.829 --> 00:32:10.009
still. We need to embrace the governance aspect,
00:32:10.069 --> 00:32:12.710
as we were talking before, and not be afraid
00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:15.690
of what we find out. And I think all information
00:32:15.690 --> 00:32:18.509
is friendly. And if we're not delivering on the
00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:20.890
value that the corporate affairs function can
00:32:20.890 --> 00:32:23.329
promise, then let's understand that and let's
00:32:23.329 --> 00:32:26.029
kind of move from whatever that baseline is to
00:32:26.029 --> 00:32:30.460
something more incrementally positive. That's
00:32:30.460 --> 00:32:32.299
how we get respect, I think, internally, and
00:32:32.299 --> 00:32:34.720
that's how we begin to get more effective in
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:39.180
this very dynamic environment. Sounds simple.
00:32:40.579 --> 00:32:44.059
Last question I have for you. I don't know if
00:32:44.059 --> 00:32:47.400
you had noticed some of the articles that have
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.579
come out in the first half of this year. In particular,
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.539
there was one in the Wall Street Journal, and
00:32:52.539 --> 00:32:56.000
it lent itself to this view that the CCO, the
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.549
head of corporate affairs, has... has has finally
00:32:58.549 --> 00:33:02.910
made it has kind of reached the the c -suite
00:33:02.910 --> 00:33:06.569
and the echelons of power yeah it's being relied
00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:12.910
upon more than ever for um you know significant
00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:17.069
decision making and counsel at a time of unprecedented
00:33:17.069 --> 00:33:21.609
complexity uh and you know very seductive view
00:33:21.609 --> 00:33:25.289
a lot a lot of it was very very popular on linkedin
00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:30.059
as you might imagine. Do you think the research
00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:32.480
bears this kind of view out, or is it a little
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:35.140
bit of a reality check? I think it's a little
00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:39.180
bit of hyperbole to say that we've made it now
00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:41.200
and corporate affairs is completely solidified.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.299
I think that's a great signal that there is a
00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:48.460
chief corporate affairs officer role. And we
00:33:48.460 --> 00:33:50.500
can designate it in different language, right?
00:33:50.539 --> 00:33:52.059
It doesn't really matter. Director of Corporate
00:33:52.059 --> 00:33:54.279
Affairs globally or something is also similar.
00:33:54.940 --> 00:33:58.619
I think that's good, but I don't think it's ubiquitous.
00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:00.660
As we can see from the research, we've got lots
00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:04.950
of signals that... There's too much volatility.
00:34:05.250 --> 00:34:08.369
We're dissatisfied with our current approach.
00:34:08.449 --> 00:34:10.789
We need to find different ways. I mean, maybe
00:34:10.789 --> 00:34:13.769
this does suggest there's a requirement for a
00:34:13.769 --> 00:34:16.530
stronger leadership role in these functions to
00:34:16.530 --> 00:34:20.789
deliver and drive. And maybe that's the indication
00:34:20.789 --> 00:34:26.730
of that triumphal sense that we're at a different
00:34:26.730 --> 00:34:29.590
level. And maybe we're getting there. But I do
00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:34.440
think... If the world is more volatile and challenging
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.019
and it's more difficult to anticipate what's
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:39.519
happening, you know, then a corporate affairs
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.219
function delivers on those things and kind of
00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:45.159
ease and smooth out some of those frictions.
00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:48.400
So if you're a CEO or board member and you don't
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.340
have a really strong leader in a corporate affairs
00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:53.159
role, you're exposed and you do need to rely,
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.840
I think, increasingly on those people in that
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.909
function to manage through. So maybe we're on
00:34:59.909 --> 00:35:03.449
the cusp of something, a 2 .0 version of corporate
00:35:03.449 --> 00:35:06.869
affairs that is probably in the mid, we're in
00:35:06.869 --> 00:35:09.630
between those sort of the old era and the new
00:35:09.630 --> 00:35:12.489
era and give a couple more years and see if we've
00:35:12.489 --> 00:35:15.929
matured enough to be that much more solid and
00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:18.630
delivering value and having the tools we need
00:35:18.630 --> 00:35:22.889
to manage through all this complexity. Yeah,
00:35:22.909 --> 00:35:25.630
I mean, it is an exciting time, I think, for
00:35:25.630 --> 00:35:29.679
the function. to your point and as you as you
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:32.619
mentioned it amidst this complexity i do think
00:35:32.619 --> 00:35:35.860
corporate affairs is has never been more important
00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:39.440
totally um totally but i think as you've also
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:42.739
mentioned you know there is there are some signals
00:35:42.739 --> 00:35:46.440
in this research and in in other research as
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:48.460
well and and i think we have to pay attention
00:35:48.460 --> 00:35:51.559
to those as well and perhaps the biggest one
00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:55.420
of those is just the appetite for change yeah
00:35:55.420 --> 00:35:57.519
from corporate affairs professionals themselves
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:00.639
and that will be a very interesting one to track
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.400
so chris uh thank you so much for joining my
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:06.280
pleasure rune it was great to see you great to
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.219
have a conversation with you good i hope to see
00:36:09.219 --> 00:36:09.940
you soon take care