Tonya Crombie, Ph.D

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Welcome to another episode of Drop and Knowledge.
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We're grateful for your support.
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Please remember to like this episode, and again, thank you for joining our village today.
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We're privileged to have a leadership development fanatic, executive coach, professor at Southeastern Louisiana University School of Business, a dedicated wife to Bill, and a mother of two adult children.
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She holds an MBA in marketing and a doctorate in industrial and organizational psychology.
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Today we welcome Dr.
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Tanya Crombie.
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Thank you all so much.
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I love I'm so excited to be here.
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Well, thanks.
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So we're going to jump right in.
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You uh obviously have um some significant academic credentials.
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And um, but as we all know, you don't just kind of wake up one day and get those.
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Um so we'd like to kind of start in on you kind of telling us a little bit about your your career path and journey.
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Um, and if there's anything from your youth that you felt kind of ended up playing a role, share that with us as well.
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Um and wherever you want to kind of jump in.
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Okay.
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Um, so I'm gonna go back to when I was back in the 80s when I was a teenager.
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Um, my aspiration, my life aspiration was to be an attorney.
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Okay.
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Um, so my dad is an attorney, my grandfather's an attorney.
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There was a law firm in Lake Charles where I grew up, Collings and Collins attorney at law.
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I was Tony Collins at the time.
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So it was sort of like just going into the family business made a lot of sense.
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And you guys may be both too young to remember this, but in the 80s there was a show called LA Law.
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I remember.
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And LA Law, Susan Day played Grace Van Owen.
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I don't know if you remember.
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Grace Van Owen was she was an assistant DA.
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She had like awesome clothes.
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She was dating Harry Hamlin, who was really hot.
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And she would put bad guys in jail every single week.
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Every week she put somebody, a terrible person away.
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And so I was like, there, that's the dream right there.
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I will be Susan Day.
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I'm going to be an assistant DA someday.
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I'm going to put bad guys in jail.
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I'm going to have a hot boyfriend and wear awesome clothes.
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And it just seemed like such a great job.
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So dreaming.
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Exactly.
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They do a great job of making the practice of law look so sexy on TV.
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Yes, it did.
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And and like that whole, you know, you're going to put somebody away every single week.
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And then you never lose, you know, it was all the things.
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So the best thing that happened to me at that age was I was in this class, a class of, and I went to Louisiana Public Schools just so you know, but I was in a class of six students.
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Oh, wow.
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Yeah.
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Me, Katherine Shelley, um, Rajiv Singh, Drew Claudell, and JD.
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That's amazing.
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Gaspar.
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So the six of us were in this class, and we, our senior year, all got to say, hey, I really think I want to be whatever.
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And they got us a job in that field.
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Oh, wow.
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Yeah.
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So, like my friend Shelley wanted to be an architect, so she went and worked in an architect field.
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I got a job working at the Calcus Street Parish District Attorney's Office.
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How cool is that?
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Super cool.
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Richard Ayub, who later went on to be uh lieutenant or the AG, right?
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Yeah, yes, Attorney General of the state of Louisiana, but he was the district attorney at the time.
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So I worked in that office from the time I was senior in high school until I graduated from college.
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Um, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me in my life because I learned that it was nothing like LA Law.
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It was a shocking revelation that working, that it was, I mean, it was really nothing like it.
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And I learned a lot of other stuff.
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I worked in the Traffic Violations Bureau.
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So um I spent five years where nobody comes there because they're happy.
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You know, nobody comes into the Traffic Violations Bureau, like, hey, good to see you.
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And nobody was feeding either.
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Nobody's nobody's guilty of anything at the DA's office, just so you know.
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Um, but but it was it was such a good experience.
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I did it for five years, and about junior year of college, I had the hard, hard revelation that this is not what I want to do.
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I'm about to have a bachelor's degree in psychology.
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There is not a whole lot you can do with bachelor's degree of psychology.
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Um, so I got to come up with plan B pretty quickly.
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Um, and I had I was good friends because I went to a small enough university, a lot like Southeastern, when you get into junior and senior year, you're taking the same classes with all the same people.
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So I was on all the same classes with a bunch of girls, and one of my sorority sisters was one of them, and she worked for a clinical psychologist at the time.
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That was her college job, and we were studying, and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
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And she's like, Well, let me tell you, you don't want to be a clinical psychologist either.
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And I was like, Okay, and so then she said, But I've done some research.
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Industrial organizational psychologists make the most money.
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She said, So I think we both should just do that, and so literally that was how the decision was made.
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I knew nothing about industrial organizational psychology.
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Yeah, truly.
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I was like, Yeah, it's psychology.
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I'm sure I'll like it.
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I knew nothing about it.
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I went to I got accepted into a PhD program, went to graduate school, was probably again, probably a good couple of years into it.
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Because my my master's degree at that program was just psychology.
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They put all of the different disciplines into one program and we all got the same master's degree.
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And then uh we started specializing after our master's in the in the field.
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And so that's when I figured out what IO psychology was.
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Why do you think your friend said, do you recall that conversation?
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Maybe some of the details of why she thought she didn't want to, and also could also vouch for you not to be a clinical psychologist.
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Um I do remember, and she is still my friend today, and we both have a very um dark sense of humor.
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That is one of our things.
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We share memes and jokes that are like darkly funny.
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And so she like was using very appropriate clinical terms of like, girl, we do not want to work with crazy people for the rest of our lives, you know.
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It was that sort of really mature, deep, thoughtful conversation.
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But she was, you know, working with this clinical psychologist, and she was just saying, like, let me tell you the type of people that are coming in and it'll suck your soul.
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And I was like, I think you're probably right.
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And so you're hearing this coming off of working with the DA's office.
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And even though you were in traffic, I'm sure you were exposed to other areas that's tough to handle.
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Crazy.
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Lots of crazies.
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Yes, people who probably should lots of people who should be getting mental health support are in the criminal justice system.
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So I was dealing with the same population to a large extent.
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And uh I I knew she was right.
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Yeah.
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It's hard to um, you know, I have some friends who have been in law enforcement, it's very similar.
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Yes.
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Um, who've been DAs for a long time, um, or met people who've been psychologists or psychiatrists, and it is a special calling.
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It really, really because you have to be able to silo your work from your professional life.
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And when you're dealing with things that are that highly charged and highly emotional and you're dealing with people's lives, you know, it's not like you're a banker and dealing with money.
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That affects people's lives, right?
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But but this is a whole different game.
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It is.
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Um, it's interesting at a young age you were exposed to two areas that were very different in many ways, but at the top of the funnel, so to speak, were quite similar.
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So can you tell our villagers um what an industrial psychologist does?
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So, again, I learned this late in my journey of becoming one, but um they basically take the principles of psychology and apply it to work situations.
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So instead of, and this is such a better fit for me.
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I've since learned a lot, done my strengths profile and all this, and this is really who I am as a person.
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I like taking something that is good and making it great.
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And there are people who love taking something that's struggling and making it good, and that's a like you said, special calling, it's wonderful.
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It just isn't me.
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And so this was like the perfect fit for me that we are in working with healthy people in the world of work and trying to help select the best people, understanding who's gonna be the best fit for jobs, um, evaluating performance, motivating people, understanding all the triggers, teaching people how to lead better, teaching people how to work as teams better, um, looking at things like organizational surveys and knowing what to do with that information.
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Um so it was a it was really completely by sheer dumb luck, but it was like the perfect I I have zero regrets about getting a a PhD in industrial psychology because I I just feel like it was like such the perfect thing for me.
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That's good.
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Sounds like somebody upstairs knew where they were sending you.
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Yeah, totally, totally.
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I do believe that there are several things in my journey that are like that that like you never would have predicted it.
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It doesn't make sense, and yet it was the perfect thing.
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Was anyone in your family disappointed that you weren't gonna go down the law school path at any point?
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I'm just oh my gosh, my dad sat me down, and you're an attorney, so you probably can figure this uh or understand it.
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Um my dad sat me down when I was saying, I'm gonna take the L side, I'm gonna go to law school, and he was like, Do not do it.
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He he said, There are so many unhappy lawyers, everybody, not everybody, but a large, large number of people, and I've seen this too, because my brother did end up going to law school, and I've just known so many attorneys over my life, and there are so many who are unhappy.
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And even as somebody who has now been in education and working with students, I hear students say things all the time, which was exactly what I thought.
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It that idea of, well, I'm kind of smart, I'm kind of good, I'm a good student, I'm not really great at math, so I'll be an attorney, which is like a 17 leaps between I'm not good at math, therefore attorney.
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That's there's a lot, there's a lot of other things that you need to think about, such as, would you like to do the job that attorneys do?
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Would you like this type of work?
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And I for me, I think the answer would have been no.
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I don't think my dad loved it, even though he was a really great attorney, super smart.
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Um Well, it's interesting because Prex and Law often ends up in maybe two notches below the DA's office in clinical psychology.
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But oftentimes, day in, day out, you're dealing with you know complex complicated issues where people's livelihoods or um their maybe their lives if you're doing family law, you know, and you're doing maybe that's custody work or divorce, things like that.
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And it's it starts to weigh weigh on people, and and I think a lot of people probably aren't cut out for it.
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And then I think this is across the board an issue in in America.
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I don't know if this happens in other countries, but it's like we you were talking about LA law.
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Yeah and it's like we sensationalize these careers.
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Yes.
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And I feel it happens with nurses a lot as well.
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Yes.
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Um, where and forensics became it became like every high school kid I knew for a while was watching CSI and was like, I think that's what I want to do.
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Right.
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I was like, it was I was like, oh, it's the LA law of this generation.
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And ultimately, I think I don't know how it would ever happen, but allowing high school students and encouraging college students, which now a lot of them have to work, so we have that other problem, but to to do internships and externships really is an opportunity I always say for people to almost learn what they don't like.
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Yes.
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If you if you go to one and you find something you like, that's great.
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But typically, if you're bouncing around because you're not sure what you want to do, um, I think it's a good way to go.
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Well, I know I'm glad I did this, and I'm gonna leave in the right way.
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But Anna, this is the last time I'll be seeing you.
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I will not be applying for a job here.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, Owen Crombie had that exact experience this summer, and and he was kind of a little shell-shocked about how much he hated it.
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And I was like, baby, it is a this was a great experience because you need to know.
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It's just as important to know what you don't want to do as what you do.
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Yeah, I agree.
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I mean, and for me, I thought I wanted to be an attorney too.
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Then I worked with Chris and quickly realized no, I do not want to be an attorney.
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I knew I never wanted to be in a courtroom.
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Just and while I enjoyed learning, you know, the stuff that that Chris and I did, um it instantly showed me that I want to do more business stuff.
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I wanted to interact with people.
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So then I do have a little bit of a background in HR too.
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So I got the best of both worlds, really.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But definitely important to learn what you do not want to do.
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Yes.
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So you get your PhD.
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So I get my PhD.
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And you think, and I think I like this, yeah, which is good.
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Yeah, I while I was getting my PhD, the um a lot of PhD programs in a lot of law schools, so you might have had this experience, are very like competitive, and people almost will sabotage other people because they they see everybody's competition.
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That was not my experience at all.
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I had an awesome, awesome group of friends in grad school.
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I attribute a lot of things that I was able to do to students who were a little bit ahead of me who like I I worked, I think from my maybe my first, at least my second, but maybe it might have been my first year of grad school.
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I started working for um the only licensed IO psychologist in the state of Mississippi at that time.
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There was one that I worked for him, Max McDaniel.
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And I did project work with him.
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Also amazing, because just like you said, I don't know if I would have known if I liked it or not, but Max, and he was just a great mentor and he taught and was just a kind, kind guy.
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He would say all the time, I'll give you some free advice that's worth every penny.
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So I always remember that from Max.
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And then uh another one of my friends did an internship at a uh consulting firm in Houston.
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And after he did it, I talked to him and he was like, You should apply, go do the same one, which I did.
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And so that kind of opened some doors that I don't know if would have been opened.
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So right when I graduated, I had already had two different consulting experiences, so I got a job at a consulting, a big consulting firm.
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Um, and was started in Houston.
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In their Houston office, moved to an Atlanta office.
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Um super fun.
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It was super um, it was like the perfect thing to do at that age.
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It's like being a young associate.
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We had billable hours, they would post our billable hours in the break room every single month.
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You knew where you ranked, and um you had to the the senior people had to like you and want to work with you, or you were gonna just die on the line.
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And so again, great learning experience.
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Um flew all over the place, got to a point where it was like I just didn't even think about getting on a plane.
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I would, I one time they said, you know, okay, you gotta go to Mexico City.
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I got all the way to Mexico City and was like, I don't have any money to, you know, because I'm so used to just jumping on planes and going.
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And I was like, ooh, this is a little bit more different.
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It's not like it is today when we had cell phones and any of that stuff.
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I was like, uh, I gotta figure this out now.
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Um, but it it just kind of built some resilience and some belief in myself that I can always figure stuff out.
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Um, and that's I think a really important belief to have.
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I want my kids to have that belief that you will always be able to figure it out.
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You don't have to know, just trust that you'll be able to figure it out if if things happen.
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Um, so I did that for a while.
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Um, a guy that one of the more senior people that I worked with went into corporate.
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He wanted, he offered me a job to go work for him if somebody already knew and I wanted that experience.
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So I went and worked in corporate for several years.
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Uh he left.
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I ended up taking his job, ended up getting to hire some people, um, had a team, did did the exact corporate um progression that so many people do, which is like find your perfect job and then get promoted beyond that and realize, well, this stinks.
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I really liked what I was doing before this.
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Um I like, can we pause there?
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This is interesting.
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Why do you think I'm gonna put you to work here?
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:55.039
Because Anna and I have both certainly had our fair share um of promoting people probably to a place that was more than what they they could take, whether that is from an academic skill set, maybe it's just personality, it could be a variety of things.
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:03.119
And it happens all the time, and I have friends in business, and and they'll tell me a story, and I start to think to myself, uh-oh.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:05.119
Sounds like the Peter principle.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:05.519
Right.
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:10.240
Why do you think that happens so often in from a psychological standpoint?
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:11.680
Oh, I have lots of theory.
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.160
I mean, I I talk about it from a leadership development perspective because that is my world.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.799
As you said, I'm a leadership development fanatic.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:29.920
Um one of the biggest reasons is we leaders look at our people and we're like, Chris is a great attorney.
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:31.440
He is out there killing it.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:35.039
So I'm gonna put him in a job where he manages other attorneys.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:39.920
Well, that is a entirely different skill set than when you were a great attorney.
00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:50.559
Um and I was good at when I what I where I went wrong in mine was I was good as an individual contributor.
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.680
When they promoted me, I got to hire my team.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:55.920
So I hired a bunch of people who were exactly like me.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.000
And remember, I came from consulting world.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.039
Consulting world, consultants eat their children.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.720
You know, this is a it is not a loving, friendly environment, at least it wasn't back then.
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:12.160
So I hired a bunch of people who are just like me, who are all like drivers.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:17.440
And I I didn't really lead them, I didn't have to.
00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:22.720
I thought I was when I said, Hey guys, we're gonna do this, and they go out and do it and do it really well.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:24.480
I was like, see, I'm a great leader.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:29.279
And then they said, Oh, you're doing so well, your team is doing so well.
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:34.480
I'm gonna put you over all these other people that you didn't choose who are not necessarily just like you.
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:43.359
And I had one tool in my toolbox, which is tell people and and do it, you know, show them, set a good example.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.440
It's called pace setting leadership style.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:46.799
I was a pace setter.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:51.839
I work really hard and I set really high goals and have really high standards.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:57.440
And by and I assumed because it had always worked before, that surely this will work now.
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:05.440
Well, I needed it's like a this the analogy I use when I teach it is you you got a a whole bag of golf pups.
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:06.799
I had one.
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:17.680
I had a putter and nothing else, and you know, I needed a driver, I needed a seminar, and you know, I needed a lot of other stuff that I just did not have at that time, and nobody had ever taught me.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.960
And did you have a mentor in the in the business at this time?
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.359
Like in that, not really at that time.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.079
My mentor would have been the guy who hired me, who left the company, probably.
00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:39.359
And uh and it and the only reason I got promoted into the role I was in is because there had been a lot of leadership changes, so I wasn't necessarily super close to the leadership um at that time.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.279
So I was taking some notes.
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:52.319
So on the reasons why people promote people maybe beyond where they should be, I have three things here.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:53.200
One, need.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:54.160
Yes.
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:56.160
Oh, we got a vacancy to fill.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:56.640
Who's up?
00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.119
And that person looks they're doing a good job.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.279
They're another reason, and it could be all of these, by the way, I think.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:12.799
Um a person has demonstrated a high level of skill in a particular area, and therefore they become the candidate for other areas.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:13.680
Totally.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:20.640
Um people tend to maybe think, like you were saying, hire like me.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:21.039
Yeah.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:27.759
Or think that they can maybe groom someone or quickly coach them to be something they're not.
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:28.480
Yes.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.640
We've both seen that a lot.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:33.599
Um, any other thing comes to mind?
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:39.839
There's just so many, I mean, 50% of people who get promoted fail or underperform.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.079
That's a that's a statistic out there.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.880
So, and the big reason in my mind, and of course, if you're a hammer, you think everything's a nail.
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:50.480
I'm a leadership development person.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.759
So I do believe people don't get leadership training.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.000
The average age when people get their first bit of leadership training is in their forties.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
I try and teach it in college.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:10.160
Because truly, you need to understand how to motivate people and how to work with people and how to appreciate the differences in people.
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.960
Because that's another thing we often do is I was just teaching on this yesterday.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:24.160
I was like, you know, we assume when people do things that annoy us, it's because they're annoying or they're trying to annoy us or whatever.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:32.400
When often it's because their skill set or their strength area is almost the complete opposite of mine.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:38.160
And so they just approach the world so differently that it's frustrating, but it's also good.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:45.759
And if you can appreciate what's good about it instead of thinking of them as being annoying, teams are going to work so much better.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:47.839
It took me a long, long time.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.240
I can now recognize it very quickly.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:51.759
It took me 51%.
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:53.279
Because we did me a long time.
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:55.359
We didn't nobody taught us that in college.
00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:58.480
Nobody taught us that in, you know, even in our early career.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:22:58.720
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:09.519
So we had a consultant that I had met, um, Harold Swarr, who recently passed away, um, who had a a group called Emergenetics.
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:16.000
And it had this theory of it was like a like a test you would take, similar to an IQ test, but it wasn't IQ.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:21.119
And it basically was designed to show you where your own brain preferences were.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.400
Where were you most comfortable?
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.759
It was not an academic thing.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.279
And it actually wasn't a skill.
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.119
Someone could perform very well, but but it could be wearing them out.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:34.400
And the example I gave is some people go to conferences because they have to, and they do an outstanding job.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:36.640
But when they get home, they are wiped out.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:38.559
Their brain is just tired.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:43.519
They don't actually, their brain prefers not to do it, even though to all of us they're a high performer in it.
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:43.839
Right.
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:56.079
But going through that um myself, and then we engaged them for the firm several times, it really taught me to how important it was to not see people as frustrating when they think differently.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:56.400
Yes.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.000
It put some science behind it for me.
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:58.240
Yes.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:02.559
And it's definitely made a difference in the way I approach people.
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:03.519
Same.
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:04.240
Same.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:10.720
And it so it makes a difference in like on a practical side and on an interpersonal side.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:11.119
Right.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:26.640
Because if I go walk into an interaction with you thinking, oh, Chris is so annoying, I'm gonna have to go deal with annoying Chris again, I have a totally different vibe and energy than if I'm like, Chris is good at this stuff that I am not good at.
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:33.519
I'm so lucky I get to go work with and talk to Chris about it because he's gonna say something totally different than anything I would think of.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:34.720
And that's good.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:36.079
That's helpful.
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:39.200
And I my energy is totally different because I thought that way.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:39.759
Yes.
00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:54.240
Which kind of emergenetics kind of helped us in our leadership roles to understand how other people preferred um, I guess, to be dealt with and to communicate with in certain and to communicate in certain meetings.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:58.559
So we would know who we're like our visual persons or analytical people.
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:09.599
And so you kind of learned how to properly communicate with them because if the analytical person, if you're going in there and you're not prepared, you're gonna lose them.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:12.400
Um yeah, the best partnerships.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:13.920
I'm sure you guys have this.
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:19.119
I I would do a I do a leadership program that I teach with an economist.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:31.359
So he's got his PhD in economics, which is about as different from psychology as it gets, and also very related, but but he sees the world from a very kind of analytical perspective.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:35.599
I see it from much more of an interpersonal perspective.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:50.559
Um, he also grew up on a farm, and so he has a farm analogy for everything that happens to that, and I did not grow up on a farm or know anything about farm, so he's constantly like saying things like, well, that hay is already in the barn.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.960
And I'm like, okay, you're gonna have to examine.
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.440
What does that mean exactly?
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:00.000
But it's just I love working with him because he's so different than me.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.480
And I just think we both are better because we have such different strengths.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:05.839
That's awesome.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:10.960
Um, okay, we diverge then for a minute, but that was good because I was curious as to what your thoughts are.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.960
Because I think a lot of people running businesses or managing people struggle with that issue.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.880
They do, and I I will say put your people in leadership development training.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:20.559
And that was going to be my question.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:33.200
What would you recommend to, you know, business owners or leaders that are, you know, mentoring people on stepping up or being promoted?
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:39.599
I mean, leadership training, there's good leadership training, and there's not good leadership training.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:49.200
And there's what people like fun education, I've heard it called, where it's like, oh, we got to go spend two days having fun and nothing changes.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:58.559
Do your due diligence, find somebody who knows what they're doing, who has a background in it, who understands adult learning theory and that sort of thing.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:03.759
And and know that to make change, it's not a day.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:10.160
Um, like the program that I do is 10 days with people, and it could be more than that.
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:27.759
Um, but we spend 10 days of a lot of different things, and there's you know, a lot of interaction and discussion and role-playing exercises and all kinds of stuff like that to make the learning stick, to give people chances to practice.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.640
Um, that's good leadership training.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:43.680
But you know, half day, I'm gonna teach you a technique tends not to work as well because um, like the program, just like you guys were just talking about your um starting with self-awareness.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.279
That's that's what you want.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:28:10.319
I start with some tools about this is who you are, and so I can teach you all these techniques, but you have to know what you do best and which techniques will work for you, and how you can tweak this for who you are, because that's that's something else I think leader with leadership training tends to be is like go do performance appraisals this way, and it's not gonna work for everybody, right?
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:15.519
Do you do you think everyone is capable of being a leader?
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.279
No, and I don't well, I guess capable probably I don't think everybody wants it.
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:32.559
I don't think everybody has the motivation, I don't think everybody has the um the drive because to be good, you really have to care about other people's success.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:40.720
And some people are very, very motivated to be individual, great individual contributors, and we need them, and that is okay.
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:47.200
Some people went to school, became an engineer, and their entire dream is to be a great engineer.
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:55.359
And I don't think we should have to put them as the head of all the engineers so that they can feel like they have grown in their career.
00:28:55.519 --> 00:29:00.400
I feel like there should always be a way to grow in your career in a way that makes sense for you.
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.920
Because some people just don't want to do it.
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:17.519
Well, and this goes back to what I see as another problem in our I'm just gonna say corporate world in America, is that we misassign and mislabel success.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:18.640
Absolutely.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:19.599
All over the place.
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:20.319
Absolutely.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:30.960
Um and one of the big places is there has been this hierarchy inside of organizations for you know organizational purposes.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:32.240
Yeah, makes sense.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:38.400
But then this what's the word I'm looking for?
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:43.440
Um we then we started to tie success to where you are in the org chart.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:44.240
Yes.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:30:03.359
And it it makes a lot of people feel, take that engineer as an example, feel like they're not as successful as Anna, because Anna is the manager of the engineers, and if I'm not in management, then um I'm not successful.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:16.079
Yeah, and the other tricky thing is we have so we have five engineers, and Anna is not the best engineer, but she's the best leader of people.
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:28.160
And therefore, we promote Anna to be the head of engineering, and the people below her are like, well, Angela, she wasn't even that good as an engineer, you know, but that's not the criteria.
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:28.880
Right.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:42.000
She's the best one to lead, therefore, she is better than the greatest engineer who has very little motivation, very little interpersonal skills, all those things that we really need in our leaders.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:48.960
So sometimes we make that mistake of you're the best one at accounting, so we're gonna put you at the top of the accounting, and it's a disaster.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:54.160
We see it in sports too, where some of the greatest athletes then try to coach.
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:57.039
Yeah, and they don't have as much success.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.119
I'm not gonna say they failed, but they're just not as good.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.200
Who never played or played at a lower level who are amazing coaches?
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:03.599
Yes.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.000
That's probably the vast majority if you think about it.
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:07.839
Yeah, because that's their drive.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:14.640
That's they've been studying how do I get players to be great, not studying how do I be a great player.
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.079
Two entirely different things.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:16.480
Right.
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.759
So do you believe that there are natural leaders?
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:26.240
And what I mean by that are, you know, sometimes I see certain kids and I'm like, he's a leader, not a follower.
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:32.000
I think there are certain skills, uh, well, I'm a big uh Clifton strengths.
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.960
The the there's that's it's 34 strengths.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:36.079
I use it all the time.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:44.240
Uh I use them on my classes, so it's a good um assessment that boils it down to 34 different strengths.
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:46.880
One of the strengths, for example, is command.
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:53.599
And these strengths are things that tend to be natural recurring patterns of thought, feeling, or behavior.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:55.119
That's how we define them.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:01.440
And then if you use them a lot, they start off as talents, they become strengths when you've practiced and really honed them.
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:08.160
Um, so people tend to come into the world or at an early age demonstrating these things.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:17.680
Command is one that we see that kid who's on the playground saying, All right, we're playing kickball today, you're a team captain, you're a team captain, you know, just start.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:19.920
And they are so comfortable in that role.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.880
And I would say that's probably a command talent.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:29.119
Um, and if they keep have opportunities to practice it, they will have that talent.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:35.279
Now, does that mean that someone who doesn't have command can't be a good leader?
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.079
No, because there are a thousand different ways that we're gonna lead and do it successfully.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.319
Some of them, it just is more obvious to the naked eye, I guess.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:55.599
And sometimes it's uh they just, you know, it's that quiet, supportive leader, or there's just so many different ways that people are really good leaders.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:00.799
Do you ever go do some consulting with a group, this 10-day program?
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:08.720
And while you're in there, you're on like day three, and this is the leadership team, and you know, you drive it home and you're thinking to yourself, five of them need to go.
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:11.039
That guy Chris is nice to have a beer with.
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:17.759
He has he may be talented, he has not put in the work, you know, to get the strength.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:27.680
And I've got some concerns with this group because some of the people they've designated as current leaders or maybe even future leaders, just in your mind, based on all of your experience.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.359
Not that you scarlet letter anybody, but you just get concerned, you're like, uh-oh.
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:45.680
I often think I I notice people who I think to myself, I don't know if this person aspires to what the company aspires to for them.
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:53.119
And and I think it's okay for people to opt out.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:54.640
I think it's totally okay.
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:03.279
And I think providing an opportunity to learn this stuff and then to let them say, you know what, that was great, thank you, but that's not who I am.
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:03.839
That's not one.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.680
I want to be a great salespeople are notorious for this.
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:28.159
If you are a great salesperson and it gets you going to go out and make the deal, and you know, you're a hunter, you don't necessarily get a lot of um that you know rush that you get from from m sealing a deal when you tell Chris how to go sell.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:36.960
I think again, that's often a head of sales is the same example, is a good head of sales is often not your top salesperson.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.320
Uh man, my mind's going.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:57.440
How do you how do you work with someone who uh aspires, and I'll use the air quote, aspires, to be whatever it is, a senior manager, the CEO one day.
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:04.719
But it becomes very clear that they're a little more talk than action.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.559
They're not a love, this talent to strength takes the practice.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:08.880
Yeah.
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:10.079
I've never thought about that before.
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:14.000
That's pretty much a diamond in the rough versus a polished diamond.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:22.079
So I've seen lots of talented people, people I perceive to be talented, who aspire and talk a good game.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:28.880
But unfortunately, they never demonstrated the willingness to practice to use that.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:29.280
Right.
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:39.199
To to close the gap between their natural talent and what it's gonna take to polish it to be able to utilize it in a in a corporate setting, right?
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:39.760
Right.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:49.599
And I find it very hard, I found it very hard for a long time to have to cook to have those conversations um with those people.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.480
I'm curious as to um because you have to see that, right?
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:55.039
Oh yeah.
00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:18.159
I mean I'll tell you, going back to my personal journey, so when I um went into the corporate world um and I had this PhD in psychology, um, and my boss was somebody, I was in the hotel business, and so my boss was someone who had come up through the hotel business into being the head of HR for an international organization.
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:18.559
Wow.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:39.360
Um, and so we didn't have the same depth and background in HR, and he would, if when there was that person, and I distinctly remember I'm thinking of a specific person, but they would do that, they did this several times where they'd be like, So, Tanya, you know, Bob, Bob's a great franchise salesperson.
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:45.360
Um, he thinks he needs to be the head of franchise, but Bob is never going to be a head of franchise.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.199
We need you to talk to him and let him know.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:55.280
I think that's a conversation Bob's boss should probably be having with him or should have had with him probably 10 years ago.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:11.280
Um and so I would I would sit down and I would not, just for the record, I would never say, so I I brought you in today to tell you you will never be that's not, but I would just ask them a lot of questions about like, what do you love?
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:13.280
What do you, what gets you going?
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:17.599
And and a lot of times people know, people at that level.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:26.559
Um, when I kind of what's what's your favorite thing, and what do you what do you see in the future, and what do you want your lifestyle to be like?
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:36.159
Like a lot of times in that one conversation, he it was clear he loved sales, he was a great salesperson, he loved sales in the future.
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:44.639
He wanted to, you know, have a lot of time with his family, he wanted had these, you know, this other side of his life that he wants to spend time with.
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:51.679
So I was kind of like, so does this path that you think you want make sense really?
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.719
And he kind of came to the conclusion himself that no, that that path isn't.
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:00.159
So that was the way I handled that tricky one.
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:06.079
But um I think sometimes, yeah, it's we have to be comfortable.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:16.800
One, just in organizations in general, we just have to normalize giving feedback to people because right now it's so like, Chris, I need you to come in and talk to me, and you're like, oh no, oh no.
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:24.400
If we did it all the time, when I said, Hey, Chris, I gotta just say the way that meeting went the other day, I think we need to talk about how we can make it better.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:26.320
And that's just a normal conversation.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.519
You're not freaking out.
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.400
It's not like I'm about to get fired or anything.
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:32.400
And um, we're not good at that.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:39.599
And if we're having those kind of conversations all the time, then people aren't having this, like, I think I'm the next CEO.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:45.440
They're they're kind of realizing, well, I'm probably not the next CEO because I can't even get the presentation quite right.
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:46.800
Yeah, I gotta work on this.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:48.960
That ongoing communication.
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:49.599
Yeah.
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:59.039
And I agree, I I think as leaders, we do struggle sometimes to keep those conversations going because we get busy, right?
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.320
We get busy, we avoid it, we don't, they they are gone.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:05.119
I mean, I teach this and I am not good at it.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:10.400
I have like times that I'm like, oh my gosh, I've got to tell that student this thing.
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:18.400
And then two weeks will go by and I'll be like, well, at this point, might as well just let it go, you know, and I never told them that thing, you need to do this.
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:18.960
Right.
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:28.880
Well, and I think inside of businesses, HR has become commoditized.
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:29.679
Yeah.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:36.320
Um, it it's it's not what it should be in small to midsized businesses or what I think it was intended to be.
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:50.880
It ends up becoming more of payroll benefit planning, well, disciplinary, exit, you know, onboarding and exit and all very the that uh that managers don't want to do and they just want to shut up and let HR take care of this.
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:56.719
And then HR ends up wearing multiple hats when they shouldn't be wearing all of these multiple hats.
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:57.920
That's what I always found.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.599
Like, if you want me to focus on HR, let me focus on HR.
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:06.159
But then you could owe in payroll and budgets and all this stuff, and it's like, okay.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:13.199
Well, there was this one business owner one time that said that um HR was a luxury.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:16.079
We won't we won't give his name.
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:21.599
Um and what I was trying to say was that it was me.
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:36.320
Was that in leaner times where you had to make some tough decisions around the economics of the business, that sometimes HR is a place if it's gotten a little heavy to to trim back.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:38.239
That's always the case.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:41.119
I always knew when I was in corporate I was overhead.
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:44.480
I was not bringing in business, therefore.
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:55.599
And the but the reality of it is because we're not, and I and I wasn't either in leading the business, treating HR the way it should be.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:56.079
Right.
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:59.760
Because if we were a strategic advantage if you use it right, that's exactly right.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:18.000
And if it we were reinforcing 360-degree feedback, reinforcing uh morale, what is our culture, those warm and fuzzy things, then um then I think more people would would realize the the true value of it.
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:20.960
But it's just hard to get there in small and mid-sized businesses.
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:21.840
It is.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:22.480
It is.
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:29.840
I um so I as I mentioned, I use the Clifton Strengths a lot, and um it's Gallup, the Gallup organization that puts it out.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:56.400
And they have this very cool um research-based path that they have created, start kind of starting with you know, shareholder value and returns and and working its way from that to you know, energized customers, which delivers those things, and from energized customers, the thing that delivers energized customers, and I'm gonna skip some because I don't remember them all, but it's you know, leadership.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:41.039
Um and um actually goes before that um engaged employees, engaged employees, employees who have a good fit-to-role tend to be more engaged, and good managers are good at putting the right employee in the right roles, which then delivers all of the other pieces, these engaged employees which are deliver, you know, engaged customers, which deliver all the returns and the revenue, and and they actually have done the research to prove that they like a manager is responsible for like 70% of employee engagement, which is kind of huge.
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:44.639
Yeah, I mean there's other stuff, obviously, but that's a big number.
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:56.960
And to go back to maybe what we're talking about earlier, if you put the wrong person to pick on the engineer for a moment, yeah, the great engineer now is put on a management role.
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:12.960
You can already predict turnover's gonna go up, dissatisfaction, customer engagement's gonna go down because the people who are working with those customers are mad and unhappy and grumpy, and they're not putting in the extra mile, all the stuff.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:18.159
You know, and and I think you would agree conceptually, all these things make a lot of sense to me.
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:18.639
Yeah.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:21.760
Um, and it's the execution of them.
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:22.079
Yeah.
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.559
That is just it's just so hard.
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:25.360
It is.
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:29.920
Culture is hard, and culture also another research study.
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:34.559
30% of returns can be predicted by culture.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:35.199
Wow.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:36.159
Organization.
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:39.440
So it's obviously 30% is enough that you care.
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.039
Because if I said I'm gonna take 30% of your revenue away, you would care.
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.920
Um so it's it's a big chunk.
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:55.599
But when you tell that to people who are running businesses, I think the reason they don't it's not that they don't believe the statistic, but they don't know what to do.
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:56.880
Well, it's not tangible.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:57.280
Yeah.
00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.280
Culture's an intangible, right?
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:00.800
At least In my opinion.
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:06.639
So when you look at other components of the PL, they're tangible.
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:10.480
We've got rent and we've got variable expenses and we can go adjust these.
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:14.480
When you're like, yeah, but you know, there's turn turnover is a great example in my mind.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:17.360
If you look at the statistics on turnover and what it costs the business.
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:22.320
But when you go look at the PL, it's hard to pluck that cost out.
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:23.039
Yes.
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:26.719
And so I think that's one of the big struggles for business owners or managers.
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.039
It's like, well, I don't disbelieve what Dr.
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:35.360
Crombie has told us about the 30 percent or the turnover of an employee is going to cost the organization forty-six thousand dollars.
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:40.639
I believe her, but I got the PL, and it's really hard to track it back to this.
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:45.920
And I think that gap between the intangible things that I think are real important.
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:56.480
I think we would all agree in running a business and and having a well-performing business, it's hard to move from that intangible to the tangible.
00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:57.119
Yeah.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:58.800
Yeah, I think you're right.
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:04.320
And I think people underestimate how much turnover cost all every single day.
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:10.800
I uh I did a pro team project with a bunch of students, and that was the project.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:21.280
We we had a client basically come in and say, we've got this thing happening, and um we want you guys to go and talk to some people and come back with some recommendations.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.119
And it was low risk, you know.
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:29.760
The the students get a really good experience of working with the rope problem, and and maybe the company gets something good out of it.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.280
If they don't, they didn't spend any money.
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:33.440
So it was kind of a win-win for everybody.
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:45.039
Um, and I remember one student who works in his family-owned business, so he he had a really good understanding of business, the PL, all of that sort of thing.
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:51.519
Um, and he said, There's no way we can recommend them spending money.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.440
Um, because you know, the problem is turnover.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:03.119
And I was like, Okay, if you learn nothing else, remember turnover is expensive.
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:09.920
You you actually can spend money and come out ahead if you can fix this problem.
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:18.239
Now there's an end game to that, but there is an amount of money you can spend that is cheaper than what you are losing right now with this turnover.
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:18.559
Right.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:22.320
Uh and that that kind of mindset is hard to get people over.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:25.440
Like they don't like you said, I don't see it on the PL.
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:31.440
Therefore, spending money feels like when I go hire Tanya, I see it.
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:32.000
Right.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:34.719
Whether I think it's a good spend or not, I see it.
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:49.599
Or yeah, or when Anna leaves and I have to replace her, yeah, I know it's gonna I'm gonna feel it in the organization, but I don't see it in the PL except for actually got a reduction in the in my expense line until we replace her.
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.599
And um I just think that's a big push-pull.
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:54.480
It is.
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:55.039
It is.
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.840
And in sales organizations easier because you have a direct line to what they're producing.
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:12.000
And you s and you often see, or even um people who are servicing accounts, I've seen it too in that kind of business where we just lost a customer because they're mad because we don't have the service people that we need.
00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:12.400
Right.
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:12.719
Right.
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:13.280
Yeah.
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:16.239
Oh well, yeah, definitely there's clearer examples.
00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:16.880
Yeah.
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:27.280
Um but you're right, when you lose an HR person, when you lose a you know, an account accountant, you're like, okay, well, things are still going.
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:32.800
Or when you get sued for not having a good handbook.
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:35.840
Or I mean that that's an actual true story for me.
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:42.719
I worked for an organization where our CEO, he he didn't want a handbook, he didn't want policies and procedures.
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:44.639
And sure enough, what happened?
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:46.000
He got sued.
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:49.280
And then he was like, oh, wait a second.
00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:54.159
And that's what led him to finally go, we need an HR department.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:55.440
And why?
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:59.760
Because he saw a legal expense and a risk of a bigger expense.
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:00.559
Exactly.
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:08.480
And so and I think I know who you're referring to, who is a an awesome visionary and and got a tremendous business background.
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:12.880
But even there, it's like he it's because you don't see it.
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:22.480
And we went to we had you know a lot of turnover in in our business for a long time.
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:31.199
Um I'd read all these books and articles and I would I would know that it wasn't good.
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:34.800
You know, then I would come back to well, would I rehire the person?
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:35.199
No.
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:37.280
So I was like, well, okay, well, it was the right decision.
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:39.519
We just have to deal with the with whatever the cost is.
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:41.039
But that wasn't always right on that.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:47.360
Well, and the other thing I would say, um there's good turnover and bad turnover.
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:49.840
I always say that when I teach HR classes.
00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:54.239
I also say sometimes your turnover problem is a selection problem.
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:56.320
You're not hiring the right people.
00:48:56.480 --> 00:49:01.440
And that that actually was part of what that that student project was finding.
00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:10.559
Like the people who are coming in don't have realistic expectations of what they're gonna do, so then they're very dissatisfied and leave quickly.
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:17.280
So it was a there's often selection aspects that are impacting turnover.
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:20.239
Well, I want to bounce back now to your journey.
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:21.039
All right.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:32.400
Well, I'm gonna, I I I've actually got a great segue from what we were just talking about to my journey, uh, and answering a question you said before we started, which was why do you have an MBA in marketing?
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:48.880
So um, while I was in corporate um and kind of had been uh promoted to a level that uh I I really wasn't great in, but more importantly, I didn't love what I was doing anymore.
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.280
I had loved what it was, and that also makes you great, right?
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:53.679
When you love what you're doing, you tend to be better at your job.
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:56.159
And I didn't love it so much anymore.
00:49:56.400 --> 00:50:10.559
Um and one of the head of at that time Holiday and Express Marketing, it was, I think we were still, I can't remember, he was originally head of marketing, and then we restructure and he became head of the Holiday and Express brand.
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:23.519
Um, and he said to me, and I'm paraphrasing this wasn't the exact conversation, but it was something like, you know, you're really smart, you do good work, you should not be in HR.
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:25.119
You don't belong in H.
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:30.880
And that was pretty much the a lot of the feeling of a lot of the executives at that time.
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:34.559
That was like, HR is where we send the people who can't cut it elsewhere.
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:36.639
You could cut it somewhere else.
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:38.079
Come work for me.
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:48.480
And I wasn't super happy with where I was, and um, and so I went and worked in marketing with my IO psychology degree.
00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:50.239
It was great, it was amazing.
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:51.440
I learned a ton of stuff.
00:50:51.519 --> 00:51:06.159
I was working with like real brand marketers, people who had worked at Coca-Cola and Procter and Gamble and those those kind of places, and and I got the opportunity to get my MBA through a leadership development program that the company had.
00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:07.679
So you have two MBAs?
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.280
So, no, that was the one and only.
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:11.199
I have a master's in psychology and an MBA.
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:12.880
Oh, yeah, mas I'm sorry, two master's degrees.
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:14.480
Yeah, two master's degrees.
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:20.079
Um, so yeah, I I went and worked in marketing for a while, which was awesome.
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.280
I was traveling internationally quite a bit.
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.000
Bill and I got married around this time.
00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:32.639
Um and he was working for Hewitt at that time, which is another consulting firm.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:34.239
He was traveling all the time.
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:45.519
I was traveling internationally enough, and um, we decided to have a baby, and so life changed dramatically at that point, and I knew something was gonna have to give.
00:51:45.760 --> 00:52:04.400
I um when Owen was born, the the night Owen I went into labor, he I went into labor, he was in Chicago, and he came home like at midnight, had just come in the door, was cracking open a beer, and I was like, put down the beer, we're going to the hospital.
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:06.960
And I just told him, I was like, you need to stop traveling.
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:11.360
And he's like, Well, he's not due for a while, you know, and he was our first child, we didn't know.
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:15.519
So that was uh that was kind of one of those like this is not gonna work.
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:19.440
So I made the decision to be a stay-at-home mom.
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:33.360
And that was a huge uh huge adjustment for a lot of reasons, but the main thing that I learned from that was how much my identity was tied up in what I did.
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:35.360
And it I struggled.
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:44.559
I struggled every time we went somewhere, like I'd go to a cocktail party with Bill, and you're just chatting with people.
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:50.239
And my entire experience up until that point would be Chris comes up and says, Hey, I'm Chris, I'd say, hi, I'm Tony.
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:51.199
So what do you do?
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.280
And I'd say, Well, I'm the blah blah blah.
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:56.159
I'm the director of this, and we'd have a great conversation.
00:52:56.320 --> 00:53:02.480
And the minute you say, I'm a stay-at-home mom, Chris starts looking around the room for somebody else to talk to.
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:06.320
And I felt like the least interesting person in the world.
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:08.079
It was awful.
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:12.320
And I was like, you know, I I find myself, I told I can remember like.
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:14.320
And how old were you?
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:22.480
I was 33, 34, somewhere in that, you know, in my mid mid, early mid-30s.
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:25.360
And I'm feeling everything you are saying.
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:32.320
Like I've been exactly in that moment where I'm like, God, I feel like I'm living in someone's shadow.
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:32.960
Yeah.
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:34.480
That's that's what I've felt.
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:37.119
And and you want to like pull out your resume.
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:37.440
Right.
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:42.079
Like, wait, like, I'm actually, I've had a successful, successful career.
00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:44.159
I chose to be a stay-at-home mom.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:52.400
But it's such a kick in the pants at how little we value that and how we discount it, and how the assumptions we made.
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:56.880
And I will say, I'm sure I was as guilty when I was working.
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:57.360
100%.
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:03.760
If I would have been out there and someone was like, Oh, I'm a stay-at-home mom, there's a million things you check off in your head about who that person is.
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:10.960
Oh, well, they probably never went to college, or they just got married and wanted to have kids, and I have nothing in common with this person and all the stuff.
00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:14.239
And so it was that was such a kick in the pants.
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:33.360
But such, you know, again, the kick in the pants things in life are often something you need to go through to like get comfortable in your own skin, and it's, you know, realize you have worth in your own inside of you that other people do does not determine your worth as a human being.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:37.920
But it was, it was not a fun journey through that, I would say.
00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:40.960
Yeah, I'm glad that you've experienced it because it was, it was.
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:46.239
I remember telling my sister-in-law who also has a PhD, um, and she was like, I know.
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:51.199
She's like, you don't know how many times I find myself like trying to work into the conversation.
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:53.360
Well, when I got my PhD, right?
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:58.800
Because you just want to have some way of not seeming like a loser.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:05.280
And you just feel like kind of a loser when you say, Oh, I just raised the future of the world.
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.800
You know, I just am trying to bring decent humans into this world.
00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:33.280
And what's interesting in that dynamic is Bill during that period probably had this positive feeling, a sense of pride around the family y'all were making, the decision that you've made to pause your career to be with the kids.
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:40.960
And so the the dichotomy of where you were mentally, and probably at the same cocktail party, he's having a drink across the room.
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:42.239
He's like, Oh yeah, that's my wife a day.
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:42.960
Oh, what does she do?
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:45.199
Oh, well, she's staying home with our children.
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:46.239
She's gonna raise our children.
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:51.119
You know, she left a career to do that, and and he's probably like feeling so good about it.
00:55:51.199 --> 00:55:54.239
And there you were kind of struggling with it, like you said.
00:55:55.280 --> 00:56:00.960
Thank God he is he is the person he is, because he was never anything but supportive.
00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:07.440
He is to this day, he has never treated me like I was a burden or like well, I'm the one making the money.
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:09.599
Because that would have pushed me right over the edge if he had.
00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:11.280
I don't think I could have gone on.
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:14.000
But he was always like, we have done all this together.
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:16.800
We, you know, look at what we've accomplished.
00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:18.719
Um how long have you been married?
00:56:19.119 --> 00:56:21.039
25 years in April.
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:21.360
Wow.
00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:22.000
Nice.
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:22.719
Congrats.
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:23.440
Thank you.
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:24.559
Oh, that's awesome.
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:30.719
And look, it's not to take away from stay-at-home moms either, because that's a very, very, very difficult job.
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:32.800
The hardest job I've done.
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:34.320
I was gonna say it might be the hardest job.
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:35.360
The hardest job.
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:39.519
And not not everybody is fit for that one either, in all honesty.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.880
I often wondered, am I a good fit for this?
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:46.559
Because it was so much, I felt it was so much easier, corporate.
00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:46.880
Yeah.
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:48.159
It was so much easier to me then.
00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:51.280
Because you can get rid of people that are working out, right?
00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:52.559
But you can't get rid of your kids.
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:53.199
I know.
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:57.280
I mean, nobody cried that I bought the wrong brand of orange juice when I was at work.
00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:57.519
Right.
00:56:58.480 --> 00:56:58.639
Okay.
00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:02.000
But it did happen on the regular when I was at home.
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:02.639
True.
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:03.360
So true.
00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:03.840
Yeah.
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:16.559
And I'm I'm hoping that there's a one of the maybe the awakenings that's occurring right now is that um people are starting to I think COVID helped with this.
00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:22.400
I mean, obviously COVID was a terrible thing, but you have some unintended consequences, and sometimes they're good.
00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:22.960
They're good.
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:33.679
Um and I think that that experience has really changed a lot of mindsets, and I feel like it's starting to impact the younger group that's in college.
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:43.599
Um, and I know to me, I I encourage young females to, you know, to value having a family as much as they would a career.
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:48.079
And um I I think I'm probably still in a minority of that.
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.360
Um ultimately that person has to decide.
00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:53.119
You just made a great point.
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:56.159
You know, it's what are you truly fit for, right?
00:57:56.480 --> 00:58:00.000
And what is going to make you allow you to build your own identity.
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:05.280
And when you're younger, you don't really know what that is, and then whatever your first job is, that's kind of what it becomes.
00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:13.039
Or if you're, let's say you're a great tennis player in high school and you might have a 4.0 and you might be getting, but you're you're the great tennis player.
00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:13.920
That's your identity.
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:14.320
Exactly.
00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:21.440
And if you were to have an injury and couldn't play tennis, which happens a lot, all of a sudden there's like, whoa, wait a minute.
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:22.000
Who am I?
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:22.719
Who am I?
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:31.599
Even though you know you're like this beautiful person, you got tons of friends, you're working hard, you got good graph, you have the and so you, you know, the parents are like, what are you talking about?
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:35.039
You just can't play tennis and it's important, but you have the rest of you.
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:35.599
Right.
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:41.599
And um, and I think that you know, setting that identity on the right things is another thing that we brought.
00:58:42.559 --> 00:58:43.199
That we don't talk to people.
00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:50.400
You can have the career, you can become the stay-at-home mom, and then later on in life you have time to go back to a career.
00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:54.320
So I definitely think that you know it you can have it all.
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:55.199
Yeah, you can.
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:57.519
Yeah, you can have it all, just not all at the same time.
00:58:57.760 --> 00:58:58.400
Not all at the same time.
00:58:58.559 --> 00:58:59.360
Not all at the same time.
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:00.480
That's exactly it.
00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:15.840
And and like I really I felt like when I was a stay-at-home mom too, and I think this has also gotten better, but it did often feel like stay-at-home moms and working moms were pitted against each other.
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:25.360
Like the, you know, I'm better because I'm staying at home, or but look at me, I am better because I'm doing these great things.
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:35.039
And I I feel like it's getting better that we I truly do believe I have friends who never quit their job.
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:38.400
I have one friend who is like killing it in her profession.
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:45.039
She has kids, her daughter, we were pregnant with our daughter, our daughters at the same time, and she kept on working.
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:48.639
She raised amazing kids, successful kids.
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:54.079
She has an amazing career, and I think she made the perfect choice for her.
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:55.760
I don't judge her in any way.
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:58.800
Her kids are great, they did a great job raising their kids.
00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:09.039
It just was a different choice, and I think that's the way everybody really should look at it, as opposed to there's one right choice for the way to have a family or have have your kids or raise your kids.
01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:11.920
So, really a lot of ways you can do it successfully.
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:12.400
Yep.
01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:13.599
I agree.
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:25.039
So, this might be a good transition point to talk about your book, Stop Worrying About Your Anxious Child, which I thoroughly enjoyed.
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:31.440
And I felt like I would read certain things in a chapter and then I'd write a question and then you'd answer the question.
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:33.199
I was like, oh my God, this is so crazy.
01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:36.559
It's like she knows what what I was gonna think.
01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:40.960
So um, tell us a little bit about your book and why you decided to write it.
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:53.039
So, as you know, because you read it, um, I am the parent of an anxious child, and uh that was another one of those really transformational things in my life.
01:00:53.280 --> 01:01:16.559
Um because let me think about so I had the way I like to describe my child, both my children have their own struggles with anxiety, in all honesty, but one of them kind of really sparked that book because there was a period of time where it was really um it was kind of debilitating and it was affecting everybody in the family.
01:01:16.719 --> 01:01:19.920
Um, and it was a perfect storm for that child.
01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:25.679
This is a child who I believe in hindsight has always had anxiety.
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:30.320
Um, and it just it looked like tantrums when she was little.
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:42.960
It looked like fingernail biting always, it looked like being afraid to go into new situations, it looked like um the you know, the peeling off my leg to go to everything, everything.
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:57.039
Um always I I and I just kind of was managing the way I parented her around it because I just knew who she was, and like if I wanted when I wanted her to play soccer, I found a friend because I knew if she could go in with a friend, she would be okay.
01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:02.559
But if I tried to send her in to go play soccer at four or five years old by herself, it was never gonna happen.
01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:02.880
Right.
01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:06.400
She also is the second, so she always had a brother who was a year older.
01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:18.239
So having a brother a year older also kind of helped her manage a lot of it because her entire um coping mechanism forever was Owen, ask them this.
01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:19.760
Owen, go get that for me.
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:21.440
Owen, tell them this thing.
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.159
And Owen would do it because Owen was like, okay.
01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:33.199
So she she had a lot of good coping skills, and we had lived for the life that she really remembers.
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:35.679
We were in Houston, we were in a great little neighborhood.
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:43.199
It was we walked to her elementary school, she knew everybody, you know, it was that kind of little idyllic little life.
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:47.199
When she was going to sixth grade, we moved.
01:02:48.079 --> 01:02:50.239
And sixth grade is a rough time anyway.
01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:57.679
But sixth grade, you got puberty, you got boys, you got girl drama, you got a lot of stuff that starts happening about that time.
01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:11.679
So we moved, it was a new school, there was just it kind of just, and I think all of the developmental things that are happening also were part of it, not just the move, but the move definitely didn't make it any better.
01:03:11.920 --> 01:03:16.480
And it it just kind of so sixth grade, I it wasn't it wasn't too bad.
01:03:16.639 --> 01:03:22.719
Seventh grade started getting bad, eighth grade was a dumpster fire, eighth grade was terrible.
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:23.280
Oh wow.
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:27.280
Um and I did not recognize this child anymore.
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:29.599
I was like, I just don't even know who this person is.
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:39.679
That like, and and because I am who I am, I have a background in psychology, I felt like I, you know, I'm I can and I'm a fixer.
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.559
I'm a person who's like, okay, well, great, well, let's do some research, you know, we'll find an answer.
01:03:44.719 --> 01:03:46.000
This is what I did for a living.
01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:49.039
I can project plan the crap out of this right now.
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:54.000
Uh so that does not work, but then there's the execution side.
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:55.840
Yes, that did not work.
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.480
So I nothing was really working.
01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:01.039
I was trying to get her into therapy.
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:02.480
She hated her therapist.
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:09.360
She would come out of her therapy sessions and say, Well, she obviously doesn't know anything because she's told me exactly what you always say.
01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:12.880
I was like, maybe it's because I'm right.
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:17.119
But you know, she it was just bad.
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:25.679
And um I wanted a book, I wanted something like that book when I was going through it.
01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:27.360
That's one reason I wrote it.
01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:41.199
The other reason I wrote it is this huge aha of my personal journey with this was the awareness that the only person I can control in this situation is me.
01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:46.079
And I need, I it didn't, it was sort of I learned that on the back end.
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:54.400
What I realized in the moment was I am not coping well, I am not doing well, I am my emotions are way too tight.
01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:56.960
I am getting, you know, all into it.
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:04.480
Her, her, every bit of her energy I was absorbing and just magnifying and making her worse, making me worse.
01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:06.000
It was just a hot mess.
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:11.519
And so I said, you know, I have been teaching people for probably 10 years.
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:16.400
I've been teaching to younger people, to adults that I've coached, meditation.
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:19.039
Meditation is such a everybody should meditate.
01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:21.199
You should meditate.
01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:26.480
I, on the other hand, did not meditate, had never meditated, had tried, never could do it.
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:28.559
And I was like, I'm just gonna.
01:05:28.880 --> 01:05:37.199
It was kind of a desperation move of like, I am going to just sit here in silence and I don't, whatever happens, happens.
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:42.159
And I'm gonna commit to just keep I'll keep doing it, even though I'm not good at it.
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:49.360
I think my I had so much built up around this idea of like meditation, just like everything.
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:50.800
I think of this about everything.
01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:52.800
There's an outcome, there's a goal.
01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:54.559
Everything I do has to have a goal.
01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:59.760
So I was like, so the goal is that I will be this calm yoga person that.
01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:02.159
I will never be.
01:06:02.719 --> 01:06:05.519
And so I out of desperation, I was like, I'm giving it.
01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:06.719
There's no goal.
01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:08.480
I'm gonna do it as long as I can.
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:10.719
I'm gonna do it every day, and we're just gonna see what happens.
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:16.960
And when I stopped trying to achieve something, is when I got the benefits of what you actually the goal.
01:06:17.679 --> 01:06:20.800
It was by letting go that I started figuring it out.
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:23.119
And I started getting myself calmed down.
01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:27.039
And when I started getting myself calmed down, actually she got better.
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:29.920
Because I I was a lot of the problem.
01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:37.519
And is often the case because we're so I mean, it's such an emotional thing to parent.
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:41.440
And when your child is struggling, you can't help but take all that in.
01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:42.079
Yes.
01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:44.320
And then you're just not at your best.
01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:45.360
True.
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:52.000
And so the I tell people all the time the best way to help somebody who's struggling with anxiety is to manage your own anxiety.
01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:57.519
And and that that when I as I was reading your book, I'm like, oh my God, so true.
01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:10.000
But starting off with the anxiety being like a normal thing, I would have never associated my child's what I call heat behavior issues as anxiety.
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:12.400
But the way you describe it, it is anxiety.
01:07:12.559 --> 01:07:18.239
It's trying to get him every day, same thing, to do something, and he doesn't want to do it.
01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:21.760
Something as simple as getting dressed, to go to school, eating breakfast.
01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:25.760
It's like the same routine and the same things we struggle with.
01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:29.440
And then sometimes I get frustrated and it causes him to get frustrated.
01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:32.960
And now everybody's having a meltdown, and it's like, oh.
01:07:33.920 --> 01:07:37.840
So as I as I read that, I was like, okay, this is good.
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:38.880
It's in a book.
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.920
I'm not out there by myself and alone.
01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:46.800
So I appreciated that you said it was it was normal.
01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:47.280
Yeah.
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:48.559
And by the way, I'm Og.
01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:52.400
I'm always thinking 10 steps ahead.
01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:52.880
Yeah.
01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:54.559
And I've been like that forever.
01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:56.960
And I'm like, it was so good to read.
01:07:57.039 --> 01:07:58.800
Like, you you don't know the future.
01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:00.719
You can't control the future.
01:08:01.039 --> 01:08:03.039
So just don't worry about it.
01:08:03.199 --> 01:08:03.599
Yeah.
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:07.199
And I have to now remind myself, don't worry about it.
01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:09.199
Control what I can control and let everything.
01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:17.760
I mean, that was the great lesson of COVID, is none of us thought, well, tomorrow everything's shutting down and you're gonna stay home for a year.
01:08:18.399 --> 01:08:26.720
So I was like, if nothing else that we've all learned, you got to give up control and just accept something could happen tomorrow that we aren't planning on.
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:35.119
So all this energy we spend, like, well, what if and I mean with our kids, we constantly are like, what if they never get into college?
01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:37.520
What if they never, you know, can get a job?
01:08:37.680 --> 01:08:40.239
What if they live in my basement and they're like five years old?
01:08:40.479 --> 01:08:40.640
Right.
01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:41.439
Right.
01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:47.840
You just let's just get to kindergarten today and worry about the rest could pass today.
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:48.880
Yeah.
01:08:49.520 --> 01:09:03.520
Um I wonder what my mom was thinking as she had to drag me to school in kindergarten in first grade, to the point that she stopped doing it, made my grandfather take me, and then he stopped doing it, made the guy that worked for him do it.
01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:05.520
And then I guess I stopped.
01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:08.159
Maybe he had maybe the maybe his name was Vance.
01:09:08.239 --> 01:09:11.920
Maybe Vance had the magic because I stopped shortly thereafter.
01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:15.600
But maybe it was because of the reaction I was getting from my mom.
01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:16.640
Oh, totally.
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:17.920
And then from my grandfather.
01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:18.479
Totally.
01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:21.039
And then Vance was just it was just a task for him.
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:22.560
He's like, get in the damn car, let's go.
01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:23.199
So true.
01:09:23.279 --> 01:09:24.880
There were they had no emotion in it.
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:29.039
It was just like I I gotta get him, and then I have to do this other job.
01:09:29.199 --> 01:09:30.239
It's just one more thing.
01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:33.119
So would you suggest to do anything different?
01:09:33.279 --> 01:09:39.520
Let's use the example of a kid crying to go to school every single day because they have anxiety, right?
01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:40.880
It's an anxiety thing.
01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:47.119
I mean, is there a point where you're like, well, maybe that setting isn't good for my child?
01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:51.119
It's so hard because, yes, sometimes that is true.
01:09:51.439 --> 01:10:02.079
And what I tell my students all the time, because all my students of this generation is the anxious generation, they all talk about it and they all claim they have social anxiety.
01:10:02.239 --> 01:10:08.239
Um, and maybe they do, or there are two things can be true at the same time.
01:10:08.399 --> 01:10:18.800
Maybe they have social anxiety, and I think that they missed out on some socialization because of COVID, because they use technology to socialize.
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:24.720
I think there's a lot of reasons why doing it the way we expect them to do it is hard for them.
01:10:25.039 --> 01:10:35.840
Um, and what I know about the brain is that there is nothing more reinforcing to an anxious brain than to take away the thing that's making them anxious.
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:38.079
It feels amazing.
01:10:38.239 --> 01:10:45.119
So if right now you're sitting there and you're like, I can't go to school, I'm so anxious and I want to go to school, and I say, you know what, you don't have to go to school.
01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:47.840
Oh, it feels amazing.
01:10:48.319 --> 01:10:49.680
So reinforcing.
01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:52.720
What it teaches the brain is that was great.
01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:54.960
Let's do that every single day.
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:56.640
I will never go to school again.
01:10:56.720 --> 01:10:58.079
It feels amazing.
01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:16.640
And what we have to teach the brain is, and I would try and explain this to my daughter, and she was not a big fan of it at the time, but I think she's come to realize I was right, um, is an anxious brain at its core is saying there is really it's survival.
01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:18.479
It's all about survival.
01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:24.399
And whatever is making it anxious, it is blowing up and saying, if you do this thing, you might die.
01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:26.800
That is that is what true anxiety is.
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:29.680
If you do whatever, if you go talk to that girl, you might die.
01:11:29.840 --> 01:11:32.079
If you walk into that class, you might die.
01:11:32.159 --> 01:11:34.079
If you do the presentation, you might die.
01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:40.079
And your brain is that's what real anxiety is, is a reaction to, I might die.
01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:47.520
And it when we do the thing we're most scared of, our brain then makes a connection, huh?
01:11:47.920 --> 01:11:49.199
I didn't die.
01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:52.880
I went, I made that, did that presentation and I didn't die.
01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:56.880
It's not going to be like, oh, well, so next time you're have no anxiety.
01:11:57.039 --> 01:12:04.640
But little by little, when you do the thing, your brain eventually will accept, I can do this thing and I won't die.
01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:13.680
And that is how I think we all learn to talk to people and learn to ask a girl to prom and you know, all the things we had to do that were terrifying.
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:14.479
Right.
01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:16.800
That's a good way to look at it.
01:12:16.880 --> 01:12:33.680
But I think as the kids get older into teenage years, and anxiety has really become I don't know if it's more prevalent, more diagnosed.
01:12:34.960 --> 01:12:36.560
Um I think it's both.
01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:37.920
Yeah.
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:38.319
Yeah.
01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:39.279
So both.
01:12:39.439 --> 01:12:57.199
And then I do think there's an aspect of um I'm using a bad word when I say this, but a fad for lack of a way of uh a self-imposed label that it puts you into a more comfortable group.
01:12:57.439 --> 01:12:57.600
Yes.
01:12:57.840 --> 01:12:59.840
I don't know if I'm I know I'm not using clinical words here.
01:13:00.399 --> 01:13:02.079
I think, yeah, we've got Dr.
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:06.319
Google, we're self-diagnosing, you know, uh everything.
01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:07.920
Well, the social media.
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:08.800
Exactly.
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:16.479
Social media, there's a a post about uh because Amanda has come to me with, you know, narcolepsy, like all kinds of things.
01:13:16.800 --> 01:13:18.000
Like, I think I've got narcoleps.
01:13:18.079 --> 01:13:25.039
I'm like, I don't think you have narcolepsy, but they see it on a social media post and they're like, you know, that's what I have.
01:13:25.199 --> 01:13:26.159
Now I know.
01:13:26.399 --> 01:13:28.319
Um so yes.
01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:43.039
So as they get older, the hard it to me it gets very difficult to, you know, when you have a an eight-year-old who I did, and both of my daughters have had anxiety.
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:48.560
And my younger one would exhibit it in crowds.
01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:54.880
Just as a younger child, just did not like crowds.
01:13:56.159 --> 01:14:05.039
And um it makes me feel better that hear what you said from a clinical standpoint because I was just doing it like old school, which is, well, crowds are part of life.
01:14:05.359 --> 01:14:05.680
Right.
01:14:05.920 --> 01:14:09.760
And this is where I think I struggled, and I think lots of parents struggle, right?
01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:13.359
You know, it's like, okay, well, crowds are part of life.
01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:22.560
And while you could avoid concerts and things like that if you know that that's not your deal as you get older, there's still gonna be situations at an airport or wherever it might be that you're gonna have to be in a crowd.
01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:24.079
Got across a busy street.
01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:31.039
So the old school kind of mentality of, you know, forget treatment, forget drugs, forget all that.
01:14:31.199 --> 01:14:34.960
We're just gonna do it old school, like probably like my great-grandfather would have done.
01:14:35.119 --> 01:14:37.439
We're just gonna go to some things with crowds.
01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:41.439
And not regularly, but exposure.
01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:44.000
Yeah, exposure is a type of therapy.
01:14:44.399 --> 01:14:54.239
I think over time I got lucky in that um now she is totally fine and loves concerts and has really, I'm like, is this the same same kid?
01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:54.640
Right.
01:14:55.199 --> 01:15:04.079
Um but I do think that parents, and I think I got lucky on that one because I didn't, like I say, I wasn't getting that from the help of someone who's trained in this.
01:15:04.319 --> 01:15:21.199
But I think for parents it becomes a real challenge that where you see some anxiety in your child, especially as they get older, your inability to control everything and then to make certain decisions, kind of in the old school approach, which now you feel like, well, wait a minute, but what if I'm jeopardizing my child?
01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:21.520
Right.
01:15:21.680 --> 01:15:22.159
Right.
01:15:22.479 --> 01:15:31.760
What if I'm causing it to get worse by forcing her to go to a concert or to stay at the same school, which is a much bigger problem.
01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:32.319
Yes.
01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:37.760
Or to not let her do this or to do this, uh, it becomes really scary.
01:15:38.079 --> 01:15:38.880
It's so hard.
01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:41.760
And I I wish I could say, here's the one right answer.
01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:42.960
There really isn't.
01:15:43.119 --> 01:15:51.680
And I wouldn't even say, as a parent, like with everything I just said, were there days that I told my daughter, fine, just stay home?
01:15:51.920 --> 01:15:52.560
Yes.
01:15:53.039 --> 01:15:53.680
I did.
01:15:54.560 --> 01:15:59.760
Because sometimes it would just get so ratcheted up that I felt like you need a mental health day.
01:15:59.920 --> 01:16:01.920
Take a mental, your your grades are fine.
01:16:02.079 --> 01:16:04.960
Take the mental health day from what we're gonna start fresh tomorrow.
01:16:05.039 --> 01:16:08.079
And it and that actually kind of worked too.
01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:13.520
So it is there is not like this, you should always be a hard ass.
01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:16.640
You would always make them do the thing, or you should give in.
01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:22.319
You definitely, I definitely don't believe in just give in to everything because then you will you will damage them.
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:23.279
Bigger issue.
01:16:23.680 --> 01:16:23.920
Yeah.
01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:24.239
Right.
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:27.199
So I don't, it's it is tough.
01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:46.640
I will bring it kind of full circle to what we talked about earlier with the you know, being able to see people to kind of reframe the way we see people, because I think that is one of the things that that I like to use with that issue that you just talked about about everybody's a diagnosis.
01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:52.960
And I rem I remember with my daughter being like, that we are not gonna go down this road.
01:16:53.119 --> 01:16:54.560
You are not your diagnosis.
01:16:54.720 --> 01:16:57.279
You are all these wonderful things.
01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:02.960
You are funny, you're creative, you are, you know, you are kind, you are not anxious.
01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:10.159
You are someone who is very sensitive to the world around you.
01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:12.239
You're I called her reactive.
01:17:12.319 --> 01:17:16.479
She is my reactive baby, and she was she is a reactive adult.
01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:22.479
She was always like, and I mean in every sense of the word, that child, if I put something on her skin, she got a rash.
01:17:22.640 --> 01:17:30.159
If I like, if she needed it to, if she was tired, she would scream bloody murder when she was, and I'd be like, What is wrong with this baby?
01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:31.199
And then she falls asleep.
01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:32.079
I'm like, oh, okay.
01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:33.840
Or I'd feed her, and she'd be like, you know, fine.
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:34.960
Oh, she was hungry.
01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:38.720
But like it would just come out of nowhere, and I was like, what is it up with this?
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:42.560
She was super, super reactive, and she continued to be in it.
01:17:42.720 --> 01:17:54.319
And that, and I just now the way that I tried to teach her as she got older was know who you are, know what you need, know who you have been this way since you were a baby.
01:17:54.560 --> 01:17:56.479
When you're hungry, you're not at your best.
01:17:56.640 --> 01:17:58.960
When you're tired, you're not at your best.
01:17:59.199 --> 01:18:04.640
When you are overwhelmed with stimuli, you you have to find ways to manage this.
01:18:04.960 --> 01:18:10.239
And it's not because you're anxious, it's because this is just how you are built.
01:18:10.479 --> 01:18:14.720
I and I I even remember having a conversation because she's like, well, Owen's not like that.
01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:18.239
I was like, baby, this is how you are, and Owen is like this.
01:18:18.319 --> 01:18:24.079
And there's pros and cons either way, because Owen doesn't have this up here that you have either.
01:18:24.239 --> 01:18:28.800
He doesn't have the low lows, but he doesn't have the same high highs as a general rule either.
01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:31.279
He's just kind of no drama.
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:34.079
You have super high highs.
01:18:34.319 --> 01:18:37.119
When she's happy, she's the happiest kid ever.
01:18:37.520 --> 01:18:38.000
Yeah.
01:18:38.319 --> 01:18:51.600
So it's just having to, I do think that reframing the diagnosis and and helping, even I do it with my college students, helping them say one, that it's normal, it's this is the way our brain is designed to work.
01:18:52.079 --> 01:18:58.720
That if we were in, if you were actually in a situation where you were in danger, you you would be glad.
01:18:58.960 --> 01:19:02.079
I also try and tell them everybody's on a continuum.
01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:07.039
But you're combating another one of my struggles with where we are in America.
01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:08.800
And I love this country.
01:19:09.119 --> 01:19:17.760
Um, but I see our struggles um, or what I perceive to be, is you're battling with with what you just said.
01:19:18.479 --> 01:19:27.359
The world that says, nope, you have a diagnosis, you have an issue, and because of that, this is what you must do.
01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:30.880
And a lot of times that includes medicine, right?
01:19:31.119 --> 01:19:34.960
Prescription drugs or or maybe it's therapy.
01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:44.720
And obviously, at least how I feel, there is a time and place, and as very therapy can be life-saving and has and does for many.
01:19:44.960 --> 01:19:45.279
Yes.
01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:55.760
Um prescription drugs to to manage brain, whatever we want to call it, you know, abnormalities, whatever we may want to say, there's there is definitely time and place.
01:19:56.079 --> 01:19:58.800
And then unfortunately, I feel like there's the other side of it.
01:19:59.119 --> 01:20:00.159
Yeah, we can over medicate over.
01:20:00.800 --> 01:20:11.680
And I feel like society has, especially the last 10 to 15 years, it's like it just amplified the opposite message of what of what you're saying.
01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:22.640
And in most cases, the people, the messengers there are not, you know, with a PhD and two master's degrees in a life, you know, body of personal experiences and work, right?
01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:25.119
And so it's a real challenge.
01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:35.359
And I think, and I talk to a lot of parents who have young children, you know, teenage children, adult children, and it's a it's a real, it's a big issue that they all struggle with.
01:20:35.840 --> 01:20:36.239
It is.
01:20:36.399 --> 01:20:39.600
And again, it's it's very much the same as what I said before.
01:20:39.760 --> 01:20:44.960
There's everybody really has to make a case by case.
01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:48.800
I there is no one size fits all answer to these things.
01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:56.159
Um with so I mean, we could talk about ADHD, we could talk about a lot of things, the same issues.
01:20:56.239 --> 01:21:01.279
Like sometimes do we over-medicate people who didn't need the medication?
01:21:01.520 --> 01:21:01.920
Yes.
01:21:02.159 --> 01:21:10.960
Are there times when people find realize as adults I should have been medicated this whole time, and now that I'm on this medication, it is life-changing?
01:21:11.199 --> 01:21:11.840
Yes.
01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:28.960
So it is, you know, every person is unique, um, but I still, regardless of any of it, I just think we we are so much better when we don't identify with the diagnosis.
01:21:29.359 --> 01:21:41.119
When we consider, and though, and here's the example when I said the continuum, I tell my students all the time, I said, um we are on human beings are on the everything's on a continuum.
01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:41.840
Everything.
01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:44.000
I said, I have asthma.
01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:48.960
That means on the continuum of breathing, I am at the low end.
01:21:49.039 --> 01:21:50.800
I don't breathe as well as most people.
01:21:51.199 --> 01:21:53.439
I said, but here's what I don't do.
01:21:53.680 --> 01:22:00.640
I don't walk around saying I'm broken, I'm flawed, something is wrong with me, I'm not as good as everybody else.
01:22:01.439 --> 01:22:12.159
And anxiety, attention, a lot of these other things that we are diagnoses, we just need to look at is that I don't have as good an attention span.
01:22:12.319 --> 01:22:14.560
I'm not able to focus as long as you are.
01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:17.840
I might even need medication to manage it.
01:22:18.479 --> 01:22:22.319
But I'm not broken, I'm not flawed, I'm not less than because of that.
01:22:23.039 --> 01:22:28.000
And I think that's like if I had one message, I would probably be what I would say about it.
01:22:28.319 --> 01:22:29.680
Because it's so important.
01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:38.560
You know, there we all are really, and and ADHD is another example of like there's some real gifts of ADHD that we miss.
01:22:38.800 --> 01:22:38.960
Right.
01:22:39.119 --> 01:22:47.279
A people with ADHD tend to be super creative, they're very adaptable, they are very, they're easy to kind of get them to like some people.
01:22:47.439 --> 01:22:50.880
I'm one of those, like when I'm focused, I don't like you messing with me.
01:22:51.119 --> 01:22:54.159
And ADHD, you're like, oh, okay, I'll go do that now, you know.
01:22:54.399 --> 01:22:55.199
Like it's right.
01:22:55.520 --> 01:22:57.039
So there's some gifts in that.
01:22:57.199 --> 01:22:57.840
There's some strong.
01:22:58.159 --> 01:23:01.760
But do you feel there's gifts in it when someone is medicated?
01:23:02.159 --> 01:23:04.880
And now you're kind of controlling that.
01:23:05.199 --> 01:23:11.600
I think it depends on the extent of the problem and this the really that is the extent of the problem.
01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:16.560
Is it impacting their day-to-day ability to function and and live?
01:23:16.880 --> 01:23:22.079
And if so, and if medication can help that, I'm not I'm definitely not against it.
01:23:22.319 --> 01:23:36.319
Um, but if it's just kind of inconvenient and they're focusing just fine, and actually they found there are lots of people who do kind of find the place where they can be ADHD and it works for them and they don't need medication, that's great too.
01:23:36.720 --> 01:23:51.039
Do you feel like, generally speaking, the the professionals who are doing the majority of the diagnosis are putting the time in with the patient to truly understand what it is they need?
01:23:51.199 --> 01:23:57.680
Or do you feel like we've just found ourselves in this place where that's the minority, and unfortunately the majority is it's kind of check the box.
01:23:57.760 --> 01:24:01.840
Here's the here's the here's the elements of whatever this diagnosis is.
01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:10.640
We've got five of the ten present, therefore, this is what I do, as opposed to really trying to do a little bit more.
01:24:11.039 --> 01:24:14.000
I think, I think there's good and bad in every single profession.
01:24:14.079 --> 01:24:21.439
And I think to try and use a broad brush, I mean, my one of my dearest, dearest friends is a prescriber.
01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:29.039
And I would send anybody to her because she I know how much care and time she spends.
01:24:29.279 --> 01:24:39.600
Um have I been to a primary care physician who has offered me things when I was so like, you know, I'm just kind of feeling like I'm off.
01:24:39.680 --> 01:24:40.960
And they're like, Well, would you like this?
01:24:41.119 --> 01:24:41.840
Would you like this?
01:24:42.239 --> 01:24:44.000
Yes, that is happening to me as well.
01:24:44.079 --> 01:24:53.520
When I've kind of been like, okay, I know a little bit more about this than the average person, and I am a little astounded that you're throwing this out there so glibly, you know.
01:24:53.680 --> 01:24:55.439
So it's like, whoa.
01:24:55.920 --> 01:24:59.840
But so there's there's good and bad in every profession.
01:24:59.920 --> 01:25:05.760
And I think, you know, we could have a whole podcast on that, you know, when we try and say all cops are bad, all cops are good.
01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:06.399
There's good and bad.
01:25:06.640 --> 01:25:07.199
Well, that wasn't.
01:25:07.680 --> 01:25:08.720
Yeah, but you know what I mean.
01:25:08.880 --> 01:25:15.439
There's but there are some really, really, really dedicated professionals who are trying so hard.
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:25.039
I mean, my other one of my dearest, dearest friends is a pediatrician, and I know she would never just pull up this prescription pad for a kid.
01:25:25.199 --> 01:25:33.039
She will do all sorts of tests, she will send them to specialists before she's gonna just start medicating as a first option.
01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:35.279
You gotta advocate for yourself.
01:25:35.520 --> 01:25:35.600
Yeah.
01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:38.079
Yeah, and parents have to understand.
01:25:38.720 --> 01:25:43.760
It's it's hard being a parent though, because the the emotion makes you not um clear-headed enough.
01:25:44.079 --> 01:25:48.720
Well, and in these categories, the the fear of the other side is very, very scary.
01:25:49.119 --> 01:25:49.439
It is.
01:25:49.680 --> 01:26:12.479
Um there's danger to not medicating because what happens with um some of these, some of these anxiety and and ADHD is the risk is a child who really is struggling, who stumbles across a substance that manages it alcohol, weed, and they are like, oh my god, this is the greatest thing I've ever discovered.
01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:14.960
I'm just gonna smoke weed every single day for the rest of my life.
01:26:15.359 --> 01:26:15.760
You're right.
01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:17.359
And that's a danger too.
01:26:17.600 --> 01:26:17.920
You're right.
01:26:18.079 --> 01:26:25.199
I've never thought about it like that because one of my biggest fears with my child who's a little boy and they're just hyper, they're just different.
01:26:25.279 --> 01:26:40.319
And at six years old, you know, I kind of feel like if he's misbehaving, is it gonna get to a point where they're, you know, the school's like, oh, he needs to be tested for this, and then he ends up on medication when I'm like, maybe he just needed more playtime.
01:26:40.479 --> 01:26:40.720
Right.
01:26:40.880 --> 01:26:41.199
Right.
01:26:41.439 --> 01:26:43.279
So that's one of my biggest fear.
01:26:43.439 --> 01:26:46.960
But you're right, you know, I need to be open-minded about it.
01:26:47.359 --> 01:26:48.560
And be an advocate.
01:26:48.800 --> 01:26:49.039
Right.
01:26:49.199 --> 01:26:52.960
And when it to me, when it doesn't feel right, someone has to prove to me I'm wrong.
01:26:53.279 --> 01:26:54.000
Trust your gut.
01:26:54.239 --> 01:26:59.680
The other thing that if you want to drive me insane is take recess away from a kid who's misbehaving.
01:26:59.840 --> 01:27:00.640
Because you're right.
01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:10.079
If that kid, the reason he's misbehaving is because he's been sitting in a it's not natural for a child to be forced to sit for that many hours at six years old.
01:27:10.319 --> 01:27:11.039
At six, right.
01:27:11.199 --> 01:27:15.760
And when they they used to do that in my elementary school and it would just burn me up.
01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:18.560
Like, well, that's a great solution.
01:27:18.720 --> 01:27:19.039
Right.
01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:20.479
Take his recess away.
01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:22.560
They need more places.
01:27:22.960 --> 01:27:23.359
Exactly.
01:27:23.520 --> 01:27:25.199
Send him out and go make him run like that.
01:27:25.520 --> 01:27:26.399
Yes, as a punishment.
01:27:26.800 --> 01:27:28.000
That's a better punishment.
01:27:28.319 --> 01:27:28.880
That's true.
01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:32.479
That is well, I know I can say for myself, I've learned a lot today.
01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:33.119
Awesome.
01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:34.479
This has been very good.
01:27:34.640 --> 01:27:38.800
And we like to conclude with a very one particular question.
01:27:39.039 --> 01:27:39.279
Okay.
01:27:39.520 --> 01:27:41.520
And so I'll pass it on to Anna to ask it.
01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:43.600
I get I get the fun question.
01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:51.119
If you could have dinner with anyone, um, who would it be and why?
01:27:52.640 --> 01:27:52.960
Okay.
01:27:53.600 --> 01:27:57.439
So I'm just gonna go with my there's probably a million answers that I could give.
01:27:57.520 --> 01:27:58.640
I'm sure everybody says that.
01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:05.119
Um my top of my Is there is a British author who has written several books that I love.
01:28:05.279 --> 01:28:10.560
I love British people anyway because they just have a different sensibility and just a funny sense of humor.
01:28:10.720 --> 01:28:22.399
And so Nick Hornby is the person who I would say he's his books are amazing, they're hilarious, they're insightful, and um I just think sitting around talking to him about people would be fascinating.
01:28:22.720 --> 01:28:23.039
Awesome.
01:28:23.279 --> 01:28:23.600
There you go.
01:28:23.680 --> 01:28:25.119
Now I gotta look up Nick Hornby.
01:28:25.520 --> 01:28:32.960
Oh uh About a Boy, the movie with Hugh Grant, or um High Fidelity with John Kyesak.
01:28:33.279 --> 01:28:35.039
Those are some of his books that get made in the movies.
01:28:35.199 --> 01:28:35.840
Oh, cool.
01:28:36.479 --> 01:28:37.600
Well, thank you very much.
01:28:37.760 --> 01:28:38.399
Yes, thank you.
01:28:38.640 --> 01:28:39.199
We appreciate it.
01:28:39.279 --> 01:28:40.800
I know you're busy and we appreciate your time.
01:28:41.039 --> 01:28:41.680
Yeah, I loved it.
01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:42.560
Thank you guys.
01:28:42.640 --> 01:28:43.359
This was so fun.
01:28:43.680 --> 01:28:44.479
Awesome.