When Caring For Everyone Comes at a Cost: The Daughter Tax Explained

WEBVTT
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When we tell you this number.
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You're going to die. I'm telling you guys, you're going to pull over right now
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if you're driving because you are going to, to put it directly.
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The article looked at how daughters, not sons, still disproportionately become
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the default caregiver for aging parents,
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often sacrificing their careers, income, retirement savings,
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and even their own health in the process.
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Here we go.
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Ready. Buckle up. Researchers estimate that unpaid caregiving can cost the average
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woman nearly in lost wages and retirement savings over her lifetime.
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Okay. That is. I saw that and I was like, no way. And then I was like, Karen, episode. Okay.
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Welcome to Drinks with the Girls, conversations for women over 40 around connection,
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change, and the power of female friendship.
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Living well with stories to tell. I'm Karen, and this is Lisa.
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We are moms and solopreneurs stepping into our own, diving into real conversations
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about things that matter to women in midlife.
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We're here to spill the tea on everything that affects women in their 40s and beyond.
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Topics like loss and grief, changing relationships, launching kids,
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menopause, and reinventing ourselves in midlife. We are here to tackle it all.
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Connect with us through a blend of our lived experiences, our friendship,
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the memory of our moms, plus a collection of real stories, honest conversations,
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and engaging interviews that will make women over 40 feel seen
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and remind them that they're not alone on this journey called life. Let's go.
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Welcome back to another episode of Drinks with the Girls. Today,
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we're going to talk about something that i had never heard of lisa brought this
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article to my attention it's called the daughter tax,
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this is the invisible cost that women pay because they are expected to care
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for everyone else not just financially but that when you when we tell you this number you're you're.
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Gonna die i'm telling you guys you're gonna pull over right now if you're driving
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because you are gonna to put it yes directly
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So they looked at the invisible costs financially, emotionally,
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mentally, professionally, and personally.
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And the article looked at how daughters, not sons, still disproportionately
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become the default caregiver for aging parents,
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often sacrificing their careers, income, retirement savings,
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and even their own health in the process.
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Here we go.
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Ready. Buckle up. Researchers estimate that unpaid caregiving can cost the average
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woman nearly $300,000 in lost wages and retirement savings over her lifetime.
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Okay, that is six figures, people. Six figures.
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I'm going to say it one more time. $300,000 per woman.
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I saw that and I was like, no way.
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And then i was like karen episode
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Yeah like we and honestly like i've lived it lisa's living it we we know,
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and we bet you know too what living the daughter tax feels like certainly if
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not financially emotionally but you know we're always the ones that have to,
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take work off if somebody needs care right so yeah anyway but we'll dive in.
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But hold our powder hold our powder
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Before we get going guess what i'm drinking i oh that is a cool glass isn't
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that is so nifty my daughter-in-law and son but i'm sure my daughter-in-law
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picked about gave those to me for christmas one year are they those are really.
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Rad i love this
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And i wanted to use this specifically because it was clear i wanted you to see how pretty this is.
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Pretty it's like i
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Did not have high hopes for it.
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Iridescent what is it
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It is called to us and it is a sparkling beverage wine alternative which i thought
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this there's no way this will be good.
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Tell me tell me you know
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Sparkling red, zero alcohol, varietal grapes from California,
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canned in Sonoma County. So I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, this is going to really
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be like a wine, right? I'm afraid. Then I look at the ingredients.
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Purified filtered carbonated water, sugar, red grape juice, concentrate, natural flavors.
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It's basically grape juice.
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Damn it.
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Right? Good job to us.
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So good, but just not like, yes, you'll drink it, but this is not a wine alternative.
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It literally tastes like the.
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Like sparkling. Oh, Marnelli.
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Right. With the cranberries. Oh, wow.
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They're marketers. Well done. Well played.
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Yeah. Well played. What do you. Oh, hello. Langers.
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I just saw that. You know, they make juice. Yes. Great juice.
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Oh, man. Like hats off. That is an impressive hoodwinking job. I'm, wow.
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I've been hoodwinked.
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Damn.
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What are you drinking?
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Wow. I am drinking the Millennial Cigarette, a Diet Coke fountain with the ice
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that's melted. So I may take a break in between and put some more ice in it.
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Yeah. Couldn't be bothered running on fumes today. There we go.
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Period. The end. Okay. Let's get into it. So,
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I think what's interesting, well, there's so many things that are interesting
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about this, but I think that the angle with this one that I was really blown
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away about is just quantifying it, right? Because it's like,
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oh, yeah, it affects your mental health. Oh, yeah, it affects this.
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But they literally researched this down to the dollar.
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So that's when I was like, holy crap, this isn't just like, yeah,
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it's really stressful. Like, it's costing mama money.
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Like a lot of money that's a house well not in California but
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Well and honestly I kind of joked in the beginning how I lived this and it's
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true like when my stepmom had her stroke,
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the daughters I mean we had no sons we had no brothers it's four girls we were
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all expected to drop everything to come and help care,
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and I mean I have a sister who's a flight attendant so she had to you know cancel trips.
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I had a sister who did the books for a local grocery store. She actually ended up quitting.
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Another sister, she owns her own hair salon. Her clientele took a hit because
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she had to keep putting people off or referring them.
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I mean, I was lucky I could work from home so that I had the flexibility.
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But still, you know, when you're expected to give care at that level,
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your mind's not really, you know, in the game. So I get it. But yeah,
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when they put that in print, the $300,000, I was dumbfounded.
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Yeah, this may or may not have contributed to the latest argument I had with
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my father, which basically centered around,
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you literally had to spend two weeks of your life digging out grandpa's house when he passed.
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And you're doing this to me. I can't believe you're doing this to me because
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I have commissions as part of my compensation plan.
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So when I have to drop everything, right, my brother does not live in state,
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not that he won't help, but hello, I'm right here, 45 minutes away.
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When I have to drop everything, that meter starts running.
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I got the typical thing that he always says when he doesn't want to talk about
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anything anymore and he has no intention of doing it, but he's trying to fob me off.
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I will take it under advisement.
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Oh.
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Wow.
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Yeah. Don't be fooled by those fancy words. Anywho, that's my cross to bear currently.
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But yeah, I think I saw this article right about that time that we had that
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little encounter. And I'm like, anyways. anyways.
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The tricky thing about this for us women is that it literally starts from day one.
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So we're socialized, right, as daughters that we need to sacrifice.
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You know, being a good daughter means, you know, making sure that everybody's
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taken care of, especially when you're an adult daughter.
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And, you know, I know I've told this story on some of our episodes,
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but when my stepmom had her stroke,
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and the medical professionals came in to train us on the feeding tube and how
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to move her in bed and just all the things,
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you know, my dad looked at me and said, get in there nurse.
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But he didn't go in. He didn't go in to learn how to change her feeding tube.
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So it's just like, and what do you say to your dad? Like, you know,
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you're in that situation. It's extremely difficult to say, I think I'm going
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to take a pass on this one.
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Oh, I remember having a conversation with my dad about the time my mom started
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doing things like waking up in the middle of the night and making eggs for the
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40 house guests that she thought were upstairs and leaving the stove on,
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blowing out washing machines because she just kept stuffing it and stuffing
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it and saying, Dad, you need more help.
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And him telling me, well, it's really invasive. I don't want people around all the time.
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Anywho.
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So we all know we've done a caregiving episode. You know, we all we all know
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that piece. We know that as daughters, we are expected to to step up.
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I mean, of course, blanket generalization
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here. Of course, are there sons that step up to 100 percent?
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Are there some daughters who dip out and say, no, thanks, for sure.
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But on a whole, it's the daughters who are sacrificing their own families,
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their time and their money, their income to help care for usually aging parents.
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But I think we need to talk about the deeper conversation and it's the identity
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also because, you know, the identity piece is such a mind. Fuck.
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Is the word you were searching for?
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Well i wasn't searching i'm just trying to be better i'm trying to save my fucks
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for really good oh but i really.
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When something's really fuck worthy is what you're
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Saying exactly but yeah so it's it's the the whole identity piece that we all
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you know as women deal with through the decades is is a mindfuck because it's like,
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you know we spend our lives caring for the people And then it's like,
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well, if I'm not caring for the people,
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who am I without that piece?
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You know, and let's just say in my scenario, like, who would I be if I told
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my dad, no, I'm not going to do, I'm not comfortable with this, which I wasn't.
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I'm not good at medical stuff, which I'm not. I don't want to.
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But that, I couldn't do that, right?
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And it's like, well, who would I have been had I been able to do that?
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So I just think it's, you know, looking at all these little pieces that go along
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with these invisible roles and these things that we sign up for as women that,
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we never really had a choice in.
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So I want to say two things. First off,
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I think, and you experienced this too from your family,
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I am starting to get the, now that I've dipped out and
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just have backed way off because I got tired of getting sucked into the hell
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mouth of being of service at his beck and call all the time,
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I'm starting to get the calls from family members.
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Well, you know, he's just an old man. Well, how much of a big deal is it?
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And it's like, really, bitches, you want to come and do it? Oh, wait. OK.
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Right now, I have friends. I can think of one in particular who whose mom is
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lovely and a pleasure to do things for.
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And she knows how lucky she is. I have friends who are in that situation.
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But I got to say, 75 percent of us are in not so nice situations.
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Through various things from attitude of parents to the health concerns that
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they have to like, if it's a memory care thing to wealth of the parent,
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like there's so many variables that can mess that up.
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But I would venture to say that the people that are in a situation where they
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can share the load, whatever it is, it's manageable in the minority, in my experience.
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Yeah, luckily there were four of us, four daughters to share the load.
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Because honestly, I don't think just one of us could have done it.
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I just, I don't. So I, I, I feel for you, for you and your situation.
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That whole time in our lives was just so incredibly awful.
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You know, we're all just doing the best that we can, but yeah,
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one of my sister's values was different than mine in this regard.
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And, and she's just basically, no, this is what we do for our parents.
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We drop everything, whether it's our jobs, our own kids, whatever we have going
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on at our house, we just, nothing else matters. We drop everything to go take care of our parents.
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And it's not to say I didn't love my parents and didn't want to care for them.
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But the feeling of obligation, you know, and this responsibility that I don't
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have a say in, that's when I had an issue, you know?
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And I think it's a matter of degrees too, right?
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It's like, In a lot of situations, it doesn't matter what you do.
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Total subservience to the situation is...
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You said it values. I think that's great. That's what's valued.
00:14:25.514 --> 00:14:29.281
Anything less than like my brother loves to say, you know, Lisa,
00:14:29.281 --> 00:14:35.371
anything other than us moving in with him and waiting on him hand and foot will never be adequate.
00:14:35.371 --> 00:14:38.801
My name is Karen Shatafian and I am a shameless coffee addict,
00:14:38.801 --> 00:14:42.451
an empowerment coach for women, and my love language is authenticity.
00:14:42.811 --> 00:14:47.205
My mission is helping women unapologetically design a life they're in love with.
00:14:47.461 --> 00:14:51.141
Because what the hell are we waiting for. My website, KarenChatafian.com has
00:14:51.141 --> 00:14:55.118
all my coaching packages and free offers like my midlife reclamation guide.
00:14:55.408 --> 00:14:59.111
In it, you'll find tools to help you decide how to create the most inspired
00:14:59.111 --> 00:15:01.817
and empowered version of yourself and your life.
00:15:02.258 --> 00:15:06.001
You can find me on Facebook and Instagram talking about ways women can show
00:15:06.001 --> 00:15:09.270
up for themselves after decades of showing up for everyone else.
00:15:09.781 --> 00:15:13.502
Join me as we throw off the shackles and live our best freaking lives.
00:15:13.856 --> 00:15:16.385
See the show notes for all the details cheers.
00:15:17.143 --> 00:15:21.181
And and that's another issue i have where it's like it doesn't matter the good
00:15:21.181 --> 00:15:26.571
stuff that i did all the things that i did that were way above and beyond because
00:15:26.571 --> 00:15:30.479
now that i'm pulling back you know i'm a bad daughter
00:15:31.601 --> 00:15:36.981
and i mean i'm to the point where it's so damaged that i don't really care if
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i'm a bad daughter but it would have been nice not to get to this point And
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when I think about what it's going to take,
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when he is incapacitated or gone, having watched you go through this, still go through this.
00:15:51.565 --> 00:15:56.708
Yeah, I don't like to think about it. It makes me panicky, to be completely honest.
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It is a lot. And, you know, I just had a flash to when my dad was still alive.
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And at the end, I was able to reconcile my feelings about all of it and my feelings
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for him. So I'm happy about that because it would have been rough had he passed
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away and I still was holding on to some of the resentments I had.
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But man, I had some resentments.
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And I remember, and I talked about this, I think on our caregiving episode,
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but he was talking to somebody on the phone and he said, I'm just so glad I have daughters.
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And if that doesn't explain the daughter tax right there.
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Yeah, that's pretty much period, end of story.
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He even knew. If I had sons, I'd be up shit creek.
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Which, again, his sons-in-law, Tony, my brother-in-laws, were fantastic, right?
00:16:49.915 --> 00:16:53.889
But so it's not to say there were no men. It's just myself and my sisters.
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But we were definitely running the ship.
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It's the expectation, right? Like the fact that I have dipped out, it's a big deal.
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And, you know, for me, I've had to weigh the fact that I'm just sick of keeping
00:17:08.459 --> 00:17:12.244
my mouth shut and sick of not feeling like
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I matter, like there aren't very serious and real issues that I'm dealing with that,
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like you said, like I am supposed to be at his beck and call to the detriment
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of literally everything. I am the sole wage earner.
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If I'm not earning money, it's it's not pretty.
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So I think that's it. I think it's just the expectation and the degree that sends me over the edge.
00:17:38.266 --> 00:17:42.755
Anything less than total dedication is not looked upon favorably.
00:17:43.405 --> 00:17:43.678
Yeah.
00:17:44.521 --> 00:17:48.103
And here's like, there are so many things that are intertwined with this.
00:17:48.451 --> 00:17:50.877
You know, it's like our good girl conditioning.
00:17:51.371 --> 00:17:54.192
What are you? Oh, you're not being a good daughter, right? Yep.
00:17:54.621 --> 00:17:59.902
You are literally trying to preserve yourself, your sanity, your family,
00:17:59.902 --> 00:18:02.532
your finances, but you are not a good daughter.
00:18:03.159 --> 00:18:08.572
I was writing a post today about kids, about what people say,
00:18:08.572 --> 00:18:11.252
you know, when you tell somebody you're going to get a divorce and you're a
00:18:11.252 --> 00:18:13.619
woman and for their first thing is, well, what about the kids?
00:18:14.025 --> 00:18:18.972
And it's the same thing. Like they want women, they, society,
00:18:19.312 --> 00:18:24.892
you know, whoever wants women to sacrifice themselves no matter what for the
00:18:24.892 --> 00:18:26.852
children and for the parents.
00:18:27.165 --> 00:18:32.337
It doesn't matter if you are wildly unhappy. It doesn't matter if you're building resentment.
00:18:32.785 --> 00:18:37.330
All of it. And none of it matters because we are expected to sacrifice ourselves
00:18:37.574 --> 00:18:41.521
for the children and the parents and a lot of times other people in the middle.
00:18:42.167 --> 00:18:46.432
Yeah. It's like, it always cracks me up when people like, oh,
00:18:46.432 --> 00:18:49.842
you're so lucky that your husband helps with the cooking and,
00:18:50.306 --> 00:18:52.032
you know, raising of the kids and all.
00:18:52.032 --> 00:18:57.122
And it's like, as my cousin, shout out to Wendy, would say, he made these children too.
00:18:57.122 --> 00:19:02.742
Or like, oh, my husband offered to babysit while I went out with my friends.
00:19:02.742 --> 00:19:08.200
It's like, I'm pretty sure babysitting is defined as not for your own children.
00:19:08.974 --> 00:19:13.212
Right but it's like it's like the opposite they get praised the more they do
00:19:13.612 --> 00:19:20.716
feel and it's this feeling of it's extra oh you're extra lucky oh you lucked out oh what a great dad
00:19:21.573 --> 00:19:25.962
right so they the praise is heaped on that's that's the meter for them but for
00:19:25.962 --> 00:19:30.530
us the minute we go in any other direction other than total subservience we
00:19:31.435 --> 00:19:32.039
It's a thing.
00:19:32.646 --> 00:19:33.302
Absolutely.
00:19:33.957 --> 00:19:36.913
Like, we are taking, I think I've talked about this on the podcast,
00:19:36.913 --> 00:19:41.063
it's our 20th wedding anniversary, the date just passed, but we're taking a
00:19:41.063 --> 00:19:43.980
cruise to the Adriatic in September.
00:19:45.163 --> 00:19:52.310
Literally, the only time we have been on vacation together without children
00:19:52.612 --> 00:19:56.291
for more than a night, the entire time we've known each other.
00:19:57.108 --> 00:19:58.031
Oh, your kids aren't going?
00:19:58.565 --> 00:19:59.819
Oh, hell no.
00:20:00.341 --> 00:20:01.403
That's awesome.
00:20:01.403 --> 00:20:06.263
No, we're doing two. The one we're doing shortly is with our Autism on the Seas
00:20:06.263 --> 00:20:11.276
cruise folks. But then the one for our anniversary. Oh, oh, hell no. No, that's the big deal.
00:20:11.763 --> 00:20:12.907
Who are your kids going to stay with?
00:20:13.122 --> 00:20:15.493
See, this is this is the thing. And a lot of you guys know that,
00:20:15.493 --> 00:20:19.340
you know, my kids have disabilities. Yeah, they're going to Liam's caregiver.
00:20:20.088 --> 00:20:22.823
Awesome. Yeah. I'm so happy for you guys.
00:20:22.823 --> 00:20:26.242
I'm like, I don't even know what I'm going to do with myself.
00:20:26.625 --> 00:20:26.915
Yeah.
00:20:27.188 --> 00:20:29.513
If I don't have to worry about someone for two weeks. I mean,
00:20:29.513 --> 00:20:33.173
I'm sure I will, but I'm already like, okay, it's too expensive.
00:20:33.173 --> 00:20:35.663
I'm not calling home. We'll text like whatever.
00:20:36.261 --> 00:20:43.358
And I'm just gonna just chill. It's yeah, I don't even know how to wrap my head around it right now.
00:20:44.528 --> 00:20:49.236
And then we can just slide right into the next theme of this episode so nicely with that.
00:20:49.567 --> 00:20:50.947
Boom. Segway.
00:20:51.388 --> 00:20:56.143
It's literally, you said, who am I if I'm, if I'm not constantly taking care
00:20:56.143 --> 00:21:00.593
of or thinking about or worrying about, you know, and not just your kids, you're everybody.
00:21:00.593 --> 00:21:04.173
And, and all moms do this. Like, who am I if I'm not, you know,
00:21:04.173 --> 00:21:07.083
it's like when my kids went to college, oh my gosh, you know,
00:21:07.083 --> 00:21:11.212
that's, that's a wild experience for a stay-at-home mom.
00:21:11.858 --> 00:21:15.063
Because literally my whole role was taking care of these people,
00:21:15.803 --> 00:21:17.506
you know, like every minute.
00:21:17.970 --> 00:21:22.123
And then, yeah, they decide to get up, be or grow up and be more independent.
00:21:22.123 --> 00:21:25.674
And then they leave. And then you're like, who the hell am I now?
00:21:26.295 --> 00:21:31.983
So I think the caregiving piece is so embroiled into into who we are as women,
00:21:31.983 --> 00:21:34.608
you know, whether it's kids or parents.
00:21:35.038 --> 00:21:39.323
Yeah. And I think the other difficult thing about the whole daughter tax thing
00:21:39.323 --> 00:21:44.633
is like as my other cousin said there is no happy ending right like we all know
00:21:44.633 --> 00:21:50.019
where it all ends and so it it yeah
00:21:51.011 --> 00:21:54.523
What does that mean there is no happy ending well yes.
00:21:55.523 --> 00:22:00.203
Well like if you are caregiving for a parent it's not like they're going to
00:22:00.203 --> 00:22:05.305
make this miraculous recovery i mean when you get to the point where you caregiving for a parent
00:22:05.988 --> 00:22:11.706
the only time it's going to end is when your loved one passes absolutely yes
00:22:12.124 --> 00:22:14.516
so it's a shitty deal no matter how you slice it
00:22:15.433 --> 00:22:21.438
Yeah it's like when my stepmom passed away and by the way she lived like almost two years,
00:22:23.127 --> 00:22:27.188
And she didn't want to be in that. Like she would tell us like she wasn't her
00:22:27.188 --> 00:22:31.928
mind wasn't all there. But sometimes she would say, I got to get out of here.
00:22:31.928 --> 00:22:33.344
I don't I don't want this.
00:22:33.651 --> 00:22:37.318
You know, and so it was gut wrenching. And yeah.
00:22:37.738 --> 00:22:42.736
And ultimately, when she did pass away, it was very bittersweet because she was finally at peace.
00:22:43.422 --> 00:22:46.385
And but she's gone. So, yeah.
00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:54.778
Yeah. Yeah. So I think the question is, you know, knowing how we're raised as
00:22:54.778 --> 00:22:57.899
girls and women, right? Knowing that we're socialized this way.
00:22:58.427 --> 00:23:03.513
First of all, when you do feel like I did, you know, felt like I,
00:23:03.884 --> 00:23:07.458
I was, I felt very guilty about verbalizing my resentment toward my dad at the
00:23:07.458 --> 00:23:11.477
time, you know, but doing what you're doing, setting a boundary with your dad,
00:23:12.098 --> 00:23:13.608
it's kind of rebellious.
00:23:13.608 --> 00:23:18.458
It feels like you're doing something wrong. Oh, 100%.
00:23:18.458 --> 00:23:22.878
When I put the boundary down about Christmas and that he wasn't going to spend
00:23:22.878 --> 00:23:25.397
Christmas with us because of all the stuff that had happened,
00:23:26.043 --> 00:23:32.784
like, that was weeks and weeks of therapy just to get to the point where I could put that boundary down.
00:23:33.375 --> 00:23:33.648
Yeah.
00:23:33.961 --> 00:23:35.106
That was rough.
00:23:35.628 --> 00:23:40.738
Yeah. But I think that's the beautiful thing about being our age because we
00:23:40.738 --> 00:23:42.502
can't, well, I'll speak for myself.
00:23:42.781 --> 00:23:45.213
I wouldn't be able to set any boundaries in my 30s.
00:23:45.538 --> 00:23:48.777
Like, I would just be like, okay, whatever. Sure.
00:23:49.102 --> 00:23:51.788
I wouldn't be able to give my dad any pushback or, you know,
00:23:51.788 --> 00:23:54.908
have honest conversations with him about how I felt. I would just suck it up
00:23:54.908 --> 00:23:58.077
and do it, whatever, because that's what good daughters do.
00:23:58.698 --> 00:24:03.262
So I think when we get, you know, to this age and we lose our estrogen...
00:24:04.283 --> 00:24:07.624
And so we don't care as much anymore. And not that we don't care because,
00:24:07.624 --> 00:24:09.454
of course, we care. We love them. They're a family.
00:24:09.794 --> 00:24:14.326
You know, we care about them. But we don't care to be the doormat.
00:24:14.553 --> 00:24:18.245
We don't care to be the go-to person all the damn time.
00:24:18.814 --> 00:24:19.474
Like you said,
00:24:19.474 --> 00:24:25.270
What did you say? The expected person. You know, it's like, no, done.
00:24:25.612 --> 00:24:31.534
Well, and that's the frustrating thing I feel is it's like you lose all,
00:24:31.534 --> 00:24:34.934
Well, not that you need to be recognized, but it's like the points go away for
00:24:34.934 --> 00:24:40.076
all the good things you do do if you're not doing 100 percent of it.
00:24:40.761 --> 00:24:44.224
And that's the piece that I don't understand that I finally got fed up with
00:24:44.224 --> 00:24:48.987
is it's like, well, no, that's you're just doing what you you're expected to do.
00:24:49.586 --> 00:24:54.459
You know, what's the deal? So I think that's part of it.
00:24:54.616 --> 00:24:58.734
I mean, I know for me, it was like getting to the whole we're not spending Christmas
00:24:58.734 --> 00:25:01.844
together thing was just the weight of so many years.
00:25:01.844 --> 00:25:05.434
Like, you know, the Italian Christmas traditions and all that.
00:25:05.434 --> 00:25:13.406
Like, I was literally going up against, you know, 57 years of tradition.
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:18.524
It was hardcore. I have had that meal every single Christmas.
00:25:19.544 --> 00:25:22.383
With the exception of one time when we were visiting somewhere.
00:25:23.126 --> 00:25:28.490
Maybe two or three times when we were overseas and done it in that way over 50 years.
00:25:29.181 --> 00:25:32.216
And I was like, nope. So it's
00:25:34.196 --> 00:25:40.904
It's just hard because I also don't feel like I don't think we make it easy to talk about either.
00:25:41.456 --> 00:25:48.805
You know, I think obviously death and all that is a really rough conversation to have with people.
00:25:49.194 --> 00:25:53.966
And I think that, you know, understandably, it's hard to have that.
00:25:53.966 --> 00:25:57.576
The other thing that I think is a problem, because I remember having this conversation
00:25:57.576 --> 00:25:59.899
with both my mom and my dad about what they would want.
00:26:00.671 --> 00:26:08.019
It all goes to hell when it's actually here. My mom did not want to stick around
00:26:08.467 --> 00:26:12.200
with a feeding tube, with all the things, just like you said, your stepmom.
00:26:12.425 --> 00:26:15.752
And my dad overrode all of it.
00:26:16.205 --> 00:26:21.526
We were heading for a hospital ethics hearing just before she finally passed
00:26:21.526 --> 00:26:27.077
away because he was just ordering all sorts of invasive tests,
00:26:27.936 --> 00:26:33.609
refusing what the doctor was saying, refusing the things that she had put in her advance directive.
00:26:33.969 --> 00:26:38.426
Like I was fighting him on it. My brother and my dad were ganging up on me so
00:26:38.426 --> 00:26:41.806
that I, you know, I had felt like I was the only one that was fighting for what
00:26:41.806 --> 00:26:44.482
she actually wanted. That's literally where we were headed.
00:26:45.602 --> 00:26:49.286
So it's all well and good to say those things and make those plans.
00:26:49.286 --> 00:26:51.453
But when you're in that moment.
00:26:52.070 --> 00:26:52.343
Yeah.
00:26:53.649 --> 00:26:58.533
And I just have to say, for anybody who doesn't have all their plans set up,
00:27:00.392 --> 00:27:05.482
if you have children, set your plans up because that is something that makes
00:27:05.482 --> 00:27:12.072
the caregiver, whether your parents are still alive or not, it makes, they have a plan.
00:27:12.072 --> 00:27:16.935
Whoever is executing the plan before or after has the plan. If there's no plan.
00:27:17.388 --> 00:27:22.352
Oh, yeah, you are, you are screwed nine ways to Sunday. And people get freaked
00:27:22.352 --> 00:27:24.631
out because it's lawyers and, oh, my God, it's expensive.
00:27:25.078 --> 00:27:29.772
It's honestly not expensive to do a will. If you want to do an estate plan,
00:27:29.772 --> 00:27:32.352
which is a little bit more involved, which I highly recommend.
00:27:32.352 --> 00:27:35.510
Yeah, it's a little bit more. But I am telling you.
00:27:36.328 --> 00:27:43.211
There's no fresh hell like somebody's estate being in test date and you having to deal with all that.
00:27:43.211 --> 00:27:46.421
Like, I mean, think about it. Look at everything you have to deal with.
00:27:46.421 --> 00:27:49.280
Like, Karen has to sell her dad's house and deal with all this stuff,
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:52.502
you know, which still hasn't sold. And he's passed in February.
00:27:53.263 --> 00:27:59.091
And this is a giant nightmare. But there was a plan in place. So it's like.
00:27:59.091 --> 00:28:00.221
It's a nightmare with the plan.
00:28:00.521 --> 00:28:03.461
Exactly. But at least you know which nightmare you're in for,
00:28:03.461 --> 00:28:06.001
you know, and you don't have to have the courts get involved.
00:28:06.001 --> 00:28:11.381
At any rate, we digress, rabbit hole, moving on. Hey there, I'm Lisa Coracella-McDell,
00:28:11.381 --> 00:28:16.199
your midlife Pacific Northwest princess, here to guide you in the art of next leveling your life.
00:28:16.669 --> 00:28:19.267
I'm passionate about women's health and wellness in midlife,
00:28:19.505 --> 00:28:22.733
especially for moms parenting kids with unique needs like I do.
00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:27.181
I truly believe we can learn, grow, advocate, and care for the planet while
00:28:27.181 --> 00:28:30.448
taking care of ourselves and our families. And I'd love to help you do the same.
00:28:30.634 --> 00:28:34.871
And I'm beyond excited to tell you about my membership for Maxed Out Mamas just
00:28:34.871 --> 00:28:38.931
like me, the Empowered Parent Collective. It's a space for parents to confidently
00:28:38.931 --> 00:28:42.551
advocate for their kids, build inclusive communities, educate themselves,
00:28:42.551 --> 00:28:44.687
and find balance and support along the way.
00:28:45.042 --> 00:28:48.131
To find out more about the Empowered Parent Collective, my classes,
00:28:48.131 --> 00:28:52.891
wellness offerings, parenting tips, advocacy resources, and exclusive drinks
00:28:52.891 --> 00:28:56.646
with the girls goodies, head to nextlevellifewithlisa.com.
00:28:57.040 --> 00:28:59.270
Let's survive and thrive in the messy middle together.
00:28:59.966 --> 00:29:07.041
So the big question is, how do we, if we're going to maintain these caregiving
00:29:07.041 --> 00:29:10.771
roles, which we probably are because we love our people, we're socialized this
00:29:10.771 --> 00:29:14.084
way, right? So it's not like we're going to just stop caring for everybody.
00:29:14.705 --> 00:29:18.407
How do we care for our people without disappearing ourselves?
00:29:19.801 --> 00:29:24.119
I mean, I think the boundary thing is the secret. It is sure not easy to do.
00:29:25.109 --> 00:29:30.472
I feel like for me, it just has been this constant, like, you know,
00:29:31.027 --> 00:29:34.144
what do you want to say? Building the muscle up over the past few years.
00:29:34.777 --> 00:29:38.573
Setting little boundaries and then all the way up to some of the bigger ones
00:29:38.573 --> 00:29:41.133
that I've been setting. You know, even with my kids, you know,
00:29:41.133 --> 00:29:45.683
like my daughter was being a nyah nyah yesterday. And I finally was like,
00:29:45.683 --> 00:29:48.088
you know what? I don't deserve to be treated like this.
00:29:48.401 --> 00:29:53.028
I will speak to you when you are able to be respectful and kind and I walked away
00:29:54.511 --> 00:29:58.386
I think that you have to get comfortable with doing that because no one else
00:29:58.386 --> 00:30:03.266
is going to do it for you. And I think that we think, I don't know what we think,
00:30:03.266 --> 00:30:07.043
that if we wait around long enough that people will be like, oh, I'm so sorry.
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:12.646
It doesn't really happen that way, often at least.
00:30:12.646 --> 00:30:16.166
So I think that you are the only one that's going to be able to change this,
00:30:16.166 --> 00:30:22.646
sadly. And I think that being better and better about setting boundaries is
00:30:23.026 --> 00:30:26.040
really kind of the key, in my opinion.
00:30:26.835 --> 00:30:30.736
Right. And I think we need to teach our young, the young women in our lives
00:30:30.736 --> 00:30:35.626
how to do this early on, because then they won't get to their 40s and 50s and
00:30:35.626 --> 00:30:38.224
feel like, oh my God, I'm losing my mind,
00:30:38.793 --> 00:30:42.636
you know, because I'm juggling all these balls and I'm trying to take care of
00:30:42.646 --> 00:30:44.802
everybody because I can't set boundaries.
00:30:44.999 --> 00:30:48.576
So if we can encourage our young, the young women in our lives to learn how
00:30:48.576 --> 00:30:52.526
to set boundaries, then they won't feel guilty setting boundaries with their
00:30:52.526 --> 00:30:55.152
parents or whoever they need to when they're older.
00:30:55.518 --> 00:30:59.806
Yeah. So then our girls won't feel like they're doing something wrong when they're
00:30:59.806 --> 00:31:01.433
setting boundaries. I tell you what.
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:07.486
It's but it's society. Like, I mean, my daughter is going through something
00:31:07.486 --> 00:31:13.105
with her sport right now where she was trying to join a club team and it's really
00:31:13.453 --> 00:31:15.816
competitive and difficult and she was struggling.
00:31:15.816 --> 00:31:21.346
And the coach did some stuff that I was absolutely not OK with and would have
00:31:21.346 --> 00:31:23.589
said something had I known.
00:31:24.154 --> 00:31:26.191
But she kept it to herself. Why?
00:31:26.830 --> 00:31:31.966
Because she wants to fit into the team. Why? She's not expected to say no.
00:31:32.366 --> 00:31:34.829
She knows that, you know, she wouldn't get picked for games.
00:31:35.228 --> 00:31:41.968
She didn't want me to get involved because, as she puts it, you're going to go full Karen on him.
00:31:42.594 --> 00:31:43.370
Oh, ouch.
00:31:43.580 --> 00:31:49.351
Well, exactly. Number one. But number two, well, yes, your point being,
00:31:49.699 --> 00:31:52.676
But also I had to sit down and say to her Look
00:31:53.912 --> 00:31:59.207
There's no world in which you need to put up with abuse from anyone.
00:31:59.341 --> 00:32:03.521
I don't care what the scenario is and certainly not from adults.
00:32:03.950 --> 00:32:08.604
And you speak up, you say something. And if you can't, you talk to an adult
00:32:09.201 --> 00:32:12.452
that can help you out. But I told her, I was like, you're gone.
00:32:12.452 --> 00:32:15.062
You don't have to put up with that. But she's like, oh, but you spent all this
00:32:15.062 --> 00:32:17.372
money on it. I was like, I get it. I get it.
00:32:17.812 --> 00:32:21.782
But no, you do not have to stay in an abusive situation.
00:32:21.782 --> 00:32:27.642
And I was just so, I mean, I wouldn't have known, but it's, that's what I mean.
00:32:27.642 --> 00:32:33.762
It's just that indoctrination is like, it's, it's just seeping out of the pores of the walls. Right.
00:32:33.762 --> 00:32:37.842
Yeah. And I think in sports, in athletics, in college athletics,
00:32:37.842 --> 00:32:42.132
it's just normalized. It's so normalized for girls and boys.
00:32:42.132 --> 00:32:42.546
Yeah.
00:32:42.918 --> 00:32:51.072
And it's not okay. So why do you think we as women feel like other people's
00:32:51.072 --> 00:32:57.592
needs are so urgent or so important and ours can go on the back burner?
00:32:58.694 --> 00:33:00.336
Like, do you feel that way? I feel that.
00:33:00.458 --> 00:33:03.632
Do you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I've got to fight it all the time.
00:33:03.963 --> 00:33:07.772
I feel like a lot of this comes from the biological imperative.
00:33:07.772 --> 00:33:14.452
And what I mean by that is that when a baby is tiny, I don't care if you actually
00:33:14.452 --> 00:33:16.762
gave birth to that baby, if you adopted, whatever.
00:33:16.762 --> 00:33:24.562
If you are caregiving for a newborn infant, it is 100% of the time you.
00:33:24.562 --> 00:33:28.990
Yes, if you have a father involved, it's great, and they can give you a break.
00:33:29.286 --> 00:33:32.882
But let me tell you, I was actually, my husband was listening to this reel.
00:33:32.882 --> 00:33:35.092
I need to find out what it is when I can put it in the show notes.
00:33:35.092 --> 00:33:37.627
But this woman, this comedian was going off about how
00:33:38.536 --> 00:33:42.411
She was pretending she was a newborn and this idea of handing the baby to the father.
00:33:42.724 --> 00:33:46.976
I was like, bitch, what are you doing? You're handing me to some smelly man
00:33:46.976 --> 00:33:48.116
that doesn't smell like you.
00:33:48.116 --> 00:33:51.126
He can't even feed me. What are those round circles for?
00:33:51.126 --> 00:33:55.196
And it was like we were laughing hysterically. But that's what I mean is there's
00:33:55.196 --> 00:34:00.646
this biological piece to it that is just is what it is.
00:34:00.646 --> 00:34:03.666
Now, there's obviously different scenarios, right?
00:34:03.666 --> 00:34:07.006
There are two dads that can raise a baby, all of that. I'm just saying in the
00:34:07.006 --> 00:34:12.729
particular scenario of a woman caring for a newborn, whatever that looks like,
00:34:13.518 --> 00:34:19.376
there is an undeniable biological piece to it of feeding of whatever,
00:34:19.376 --> 00:34:20.576
even if you're bottle feeding.
00:34:20.576 --> 00:34:26.456
And I feel like it kind of sets us up is my point in this long floundering ramble.
00:34:27.196 --> 00:34:34.724
You are so spot on. I just lived that last week because I went to go babysit
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:40.916
my grandson with my son because my daughter-in-law had to go out of town for,
00:34:42.192 --> 00:34:44.646
a family situation with her mom and her brother.
00:34:44.646 --> 00:34:50.016
And so she was gone for two nights. So I was the cavalry and I came in to help.
00:34:50.793 --> 00:34:56.976
And, and I mean, my son is a great dad, extremely hands-on, you know,
00:34:57.356 --> 00:35:01.786
I, I love watching him learn and figure it out and just kind of be involved
00:35:01.786 --> 00:35:04.173
and do the things that he should be doing.
00:35:05.075 --> 00:35:10.165
He's not his, he's not my daughter-in-law. He's not mama, you know?
00:35:10.165 --> 00:35:15.003
And, and, and he, and I were joking. It's like moms and dads just do things differently.
00:35:15.521 --> 00:35:18.330
So the baby is literally, he's not even, he's almost two months old.
00:35:18.931 --> 00:35:25.715
And my son, when he cries, my son wants to be like, tickle him or like hold
00:35:25.715 --> 00:35:28.625
him and be like, kind of like playful with him.
00:35:28.788 --> 00:35:31.045
Oh, Jesus Christ. And it's like, it's like,
00:35:31.045 --> 00:35:34.855
Babe, sometimes that works. Sometimes he likes that because he definitely likes
00:35:34.855 --> 00:35:36.357
to be moved and rocked and all that.
00:35:36.711 --> 00:35:40.885
But sometimes you have to wrap him up and just pull all his limbs in and just,
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:43.115
you know, rock the hell out of him.
00:35:43.115 --> 00:35:49.585
And then, you know, but it's just, I vividly felt what you are talking about
00:35:49.585 --> 00:35:52.845
right now. And it's, and it's true. And, and being a mother myself,
00:35:52.845 --> 00:35:57.573
even though I'm not a mother of my grandson, those, those instincts just all come back.
00:35:58.863 --> 00:36:04.443
And again, stereotypically, sure. Are there some men that know this instinctually
00:36:04.443 --> 00:36:06.038
and some women that don't? Sure.
00:36:06.501 --> 00:36:12.263
But I also think the research shows that there's like pheromones and all sorts
00:36:12.263 --> 00:36:15.249
of stuff that are involved. I don't care if you're breastfeeding or not.
00:36:15.726 --> 00:36:20.953
When a baby is that young, it recognizes its caregiver by sense of smell.
00:36:20.953 --> 00:36:24.282
I'm 99% sure that that is like science based.
00:36:24.560 --> 00:36:28.583
So some of it is just like, I mean. Yeah.
00:36:29.047 --> 00:36:34.653
You know, hopefully mom rolled around on some like baby towels or spit up thing
00:36:34.653 --> 00:36:37.407
or something so that, you know, you have that scent there.
00:36:38.165 --> 00:36:38.449
Yeah.
00:36:39.206 --> 00:36:41.226
So my point is that it starts there.
00:36:41.731 --> 00:36:45.812
Yeah. So we're fighting biology and we're fighting socialization.
00:36:46.091 --> 00:36:46.573
Yes.
00:36:46.573 --> 00:36:46.938
So.
00:36:47.246 --> 00:36:47.963
Exactly.
00:36:48.763 --> 00:36:54.233
So easy. Our beloved listeners, we have to fight against this because those
00:36:54.233 --> 00:36:55.963
two things are pretty damn strong.
00:36:57.183 --> 00:37:01.643
Yeah. So if we want to choose ourselves, which we talk a lot about on this podcast,
00:37:01.643 --> 00:37:06.693
about, you know, choosing ourselves, we really have to recognize,
00:37:06.693 --> 00:37:08.290
yes, what we're up against.
00:37:08.958 --> 00:37:13.383
And then also, it's not like this big, you know, choosing yourself doesn't have
00:37:13.383 --> 00:37:18.373
to mean doing this big, huge decision or making this big, huge change.
00:37:18.373 --> 00:37:20.561
It could be tiny little things.
00:37:21.014 --> 00:37:21.356
Right?
00:37:21.699 --> 00:37:25.123
Until you get used to choosing yourself and then hopefully lead up to the bigger thing.
00:37:25.123 --> 00:37:25.455
Yeah.
00:37:25.669 --> 00:37:30.563
And and leading up to the setting those hard boundaries like you've had to set with your dad, you know?
00:37:31.291 --> 00:37:31.547
Yeah.
00:37:32.167 --> 00:37:35.513
But if you're not used to choosing yourself at all in any realm,
00:37:35.513 --> 00:37:39.923
you're never going to be able to do it when you need to, because life's going
00:37:39.923 --> 00:37:43.033
to hand you some shit sandwiches and you're going to you're going to have to
00:37:43.033 --> 00:37:44.550
know how to take care of yourself.
00:37:45.828 --> 00:37:49.896
So, and we're going to talk about some ways to do that specifically.
00:37:50.233 --> 00:37:55.138
And those of you that are after-hours subscribers and members,
00:37:55.138 --> 00:37:59.352
we are going to try to do like what we always do, provide some solutions.
00:38:00.019 --> 00:38:05.738
So yeah, so if you are a Patreon member, you will be hearing that on the Patreon
00:38:05.738 --> 00:38:09.115
podcast. What is the Patreon, you ask? Well, let me explain it to you this way.
00:38:09.545 --> 00:38:14.188
Karen, when was the last time you had a bougie cocktail and how much did it cost? Yes.
00:38:14.942 --> 00:38:18.302
Gosh, a bougie cocktail? I can't even remember the last time,
00:38:18.302 --> 00:38:21.482
but it was probably like $17 or $18.
00:38:21.482 --> 00:38:28.482
Okay, have I got a deal for you? After Hours is literally half the cost of a
00:38:28.482 --> 00:38:33.546
bougie cocktail per month. That's it. $9.97 a month, y'all.
00:38:34.196 --> 00:38:39.995
You cannot get a bougie cocktail for $9.97 a month. I'm just keeping it real out there.
00:38:40.419 --> 00:38:46.248
So on the outro, there's information about how to become a member.
00:38:46.577 --> 00:38:49.422
There's information in the show notes. If you're watching us on YouTube,
00:38:49.422 --> 00:38:50.862
there's a reel at the end of this.
00:38:51.187 --> 00:38:55.669
But essentially, the other thing you're doing is you are allowing us to keep
00:38:55.982 --> 00:38:59.894
delivering the content that you've known and loved for two years.
00:39:00.277 --> 00:39:05.782
Your contribution is literally going to us expanding the community and doing
00:39:05.782 --> 00:39:09.142
more because, see, prior episodes, we've gotten to the point where we need a
00:39:09.142 --> 00:39:11.193
little help to do that and to keep it
00:39:11.716 --> 00:39:17.234
sustainable and impactful and continue to bring the quality of content that we are bringing you.
00:39:17.914 --> 00:39:20.126
Anything to add, Ms. Karen, to that?
00:39:20.334 --> 00:39:24.515
You know, if you are a Patreon member, you get the episodes a day early.
00:39:24.793 --> 00:39:25.281
Yes, you do.
00:39:25.890 --> 00:39:30.522
So that's kind of nice. And also, you have a front row seat to,
00:39:31.382 --> 00:39:35.892
because, you know, Lisa and I have things, we're cooking up for this community.
00:39:35.892 --> 00:39:37.972
The cooking is happening, yes.
00:39:37.972 --> 00:39:40.862
The cooking is happening. So you will have a front row seat to that.
00:39:40.862 --> 00:39:45.412
You will already be a part of the inner, I don't want to say inner circle,
00:39:45.412 --> 00:39:49.852
because I definitely don't want to exclude those who are not joining the Patreon yet.
00:39:50.131 --> 00:39:51.356
We love all our people.
00:39:52.018 --> 00:39:55.842
But you will be. You will be, you know, pulling up a chair, sitting at the table
00:39:55.842 --> 00:40:00.789
with us in our after-hours lounge and really having the deeper conversations
00:40:01.172 --> 00:40:02.124
that are important to have.
00:40:02.922 --> 00:40:06.102
And commercial-free, too. No commercials. Nothing. No outros.
00:40:06.102 --> 00:40:09.676
Nada. Just pretty much mainlining us for...
00:40:10.774 --> 00:40:16.644
A good hour. All right, people. Well, like, share. Send this to someone that
00:40:16.644 --> 00:40:20.445
you know is paying a heavy daughter tax right about now.
00:40:21.236 --> 00:40:25.584
Take a minute to go back and reflect on that number. Holy crap in a bucket. Yeah.
00:40:26.252 --> 00:40:30.152
But yeah, send it to someone you think would benefit from it. Yeah. Anything to add?
00:40:31.218 --> 00:40:36.937
No, we appreciate you being here. We would love for you to join us in After Hours and our Patreon.
00:40:37.529 --> 00:40:41.424
If you are leaving now, we just know we appreciate and love every one of you.
00:40:41.424 --> 00:40:44.115
And we will see you next week on the podcast.
00:40:44.772 --> 00:40:47.574
See you next time. Well, we've reached the part of the conversation where we
00:40:47.574 --> 00:40:49.054
probably should stop talking.
00:40:49.054 --> 00:40:49.934
But we never do.
00:40:50.354 --> 00:40:54.194
We really don't. But hold up. You're probably wondering where the rest of this episode went.
00:40:54.194 --> 00:40:57.874
I got you. This is why we have one brain. We've launched Drinks with the Girls
00:40:57.874 --> 00:41:00.115
2.0 and it's over on Patreon.
00:41:00.434 --> 00:41:04.579
We've realized some of our best conversations happen after we've officially wrapped things up.
00:41:04.788 --> 00:41:08.324
This is where you'll get the end of the conversation, plus early access to all
00:41:08.324 --> 00:41:10.529
the episodes so you never miss Last Call.
00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:14.824
You'll get the stories we probably shouldn't share, the things we weren't planning
00:41:14.824 --> 00:41:18.934
to say, the random rabbit holes that somehow become the best part of the conversation.
00:41:18.934 --> 00:41:21.854
Basically, all the stuff that happens when the microphones are still on,
00:41:21.854 --> 00:41:25.604
but we're no longer behaving ourselves like that ever happens. And best of all.
00:41:25.604 --> 00:41:30.054
You'll get in on the ground floor of the rocket ship that is Drinks with the Girls 2.0.
00:41:30.054 --> 00:41:33.004
We've been teasing this for a while now, and it's finally here.
00:41:33.004 --> 00:41:37.334
You'll get to own your very own slice of Drinks with the Girls 2.0 and help
00:41:37.334 --> 00:41:39.694
us launch this sucker into the stratosphere.
00:41:39.694 --> 00:41:43.124
So if you'd like to pull up a seat for one more round or join us for a coffee
00:41:43.124 --> 00:41:45.770
date, come join us on Patreon. The link is in the show notes.
00:41:45.886 --> 00:41:47.708
We'd love to have you, and we're saving you a seat.
00:41:48.399 --> 00:41:51.702
Wait, why are you still here? Head over to Patreon and join us now!