WEBVTT
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Imagine there's an email sitting in your inbox.
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It's from your ex.
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You haven't opened it yet, but you've got a good idea of what's in it, and you know that once you read it, you'll be typing a reply before you even get to the finish.
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That was me for a long time.
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Then I set up a folder in Gmail, so his emails skipped my inbox entirely.
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I read them once a week on a Sunday after girding my loins, and I would answer by the Wednesday, so I had a few days to process and to think about things.
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That sounds like a small admin thing, but it made a huge difference not only between responding and reacting, but also how my mental health went during my separation.
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My guest today is Stephanie Pinto.
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Stephanie is an emotional intelligence coach and a pediatric anxiety therapist.
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She wrote from Chaos to Connection and she hosts the Emotionally Intelligent Parenting Podcast.
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Now, I invited Stephanie on to talk about raising emotionally intelligent children.
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That's her work, and that's what I thought we were going to talk about.
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But Steph and I had a great chat, and we do get to the children a little bit today, but the conversation kept turning us back to what emotional intelligence looks like for us on the days when we feel like we don't have any and when we're going through a really hard thing, when your life is on fire and you don't even have a word for how you're feeling.
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The conversation was too good to cut, so I've split it in two.
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Today is mostly about you.
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Next week we'll talk much more about how to help your children be more emotionally intelligent.
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Today we talk about what emotional intelligence is, why empathy without boundaries doesn't help anyone, and why the ability to pause before you respond is worth more in a separation than almost anything else that you can learn.
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I really think you'll get something useful out of this one.
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Let's get started.
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I'm Carolyn Tate, founder of Women's Divorce Academy, and your guide to turning your divorce into the best thing that ever happened to you.
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This is Divorce with Carolyn.
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Can we start with something really obvious?
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What is emotional intelligence and why is it important?
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Yeah, yeah, let's start there because I I feel like it's still a bit of a buzzword and people don't really understand the kind of depth of it and what it means.
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Generally speaking, it's our ability to be aware of and manage our emotions and our behavior well in relationships or in any situation.
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If we want to go a teensy bit deeper, it's really being aware of our own emotions and those of other people in the moment and to use that information to um manage our behavior, to make good decisions and to be resilient, right?
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So there's I like how there's that two-piece sort of the double side there.
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I have to be be able to be aware of and manage my own emotions, but also understanding that other people, my kids or um my partner or someone else, my neighbor, my boss, they also have their own emotional state and their own stuff that they're going through and and understanding and honoring that and then making decisions about you know how I communicate or what I do or boundaries or anything.
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And I like I like that you mentioned resilience because that's something we talk about a lot.
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And also um there's a lot of empathy in there too, right?
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Understanding how other people feel.
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Yeah.
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So on that, I'm glad you brought that up actually.
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Empathy, a a lot of people do still think emotional intelligence really a huge part of it, is empathy.
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And then not wrong, but it's not just about being empathetic to other people and um, you know, giving them grace if they're snappy or rude or something.
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That that is a part of it.
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But it's also when other people are experiencing some kind of upheaval or chaos or or emotional um, you know, uh situation, we're allowed to have boundaries and we're allowed to understand and validate that that person, whoa, they are not usually like that, or they are really something is up with them.
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I think that's really helpful.
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Um, so we can be empathetic and yet have boundaries or or be able to communicate in a way that says, hey, that's that's not okay, or I didn't deserve that, or can we talk about this?
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So yeah, it is it's quite complex actually.
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And I like that too about the boundaries because I think especially women and mums, you know, we make the mistake of of just being kind to a fault and giving so much of ourselves when really that's not helping anybody.
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And there's always, you know, that talk about you can't pour from an empty cup.
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So um, you know, and we'll get into that a bit more, obviously, as we chat.
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But I think, yeah, all of it is so it's interesting that it's all tied up in that emotional intelligence piece.
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But children, of course, are correct me if I'm wrong, pretty egocentric.
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Um minor.
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And um, so how what does emotional intelligence look like at a child's level at maybe different ages?
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Yep, yeah.
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So so it starts off very, very basic.
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And if we think about, if I just quickly go back to when we're when you know we're infants, we have zero emotional intelligence.
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We have zero ability to regulate our emotions.
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Our mum or carer, someone does that for us.
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So if we are hungry, cold, tired, what we cry.
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Like that's it.
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And so zero ability to pause and think about how do I deal with this in a better way, how do I use um my use my words to communicate what I need?
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No, that doesn't happen.
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So obviously that comes along with the first words and being able to um being able to communicate.
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Uh, I was a speech pathologist in a previous life, so before I moved into this, I so I'm very much aware of how powerful communication is.
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And so, as you were saying, Carolyn, with kids, what does it look like?
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Even with toddlers, we can help them to name their emotions.
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It sounds wildly simple and stupid and pointless, but actually, kids who grow up with a limited emotional vocabulary, happy, sad, mad, and things like that, we know, we know from research it's not enough.
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It's not enough.
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We call it emotional granularity, the ability to really name the nuanced sensations and emotions that we're feeling.
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Because let's say, even for for a child, something happens to them and they fall off their scooter and bump their knee, or they have an argument with a sibling.
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If they just say, I'm feeling bad, or I'm really mad, we they they they can miss and we miss the specifics of what's actually happened.
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They might be hurt because their brother has pushed them, or they might be disappointed because they didn't get um something they were hoping for, or they might be anxious and afraid of that thing that's coming up.
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So to give our kids, um, we often just say, name it to tame it in the emotional intelligence space, if we can help our kids by helping them to name emotions and just recognizing them well with our best guess, naming them, um, being a little bit more specific.
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Oh, you look really frustrated, um, rather than why are you so mad or what's wrong with you, or like suck it up, things like that.
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Um, and giving them that emotional vocabulary.
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Again, it sounds really simple, but whoa, like I don't know, most of us did not get that.
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And um it kind of and it does sound simple, and yet I know many adults who can't name more than four feelings too.
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So yeah.
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One of them often is pissed off.
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I'm like, that's not an emotion.
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Yeah.
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I have a friend who uh grew up in a house.
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She always says there were only two emotions allowed.
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It was either angry or happy.
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Those are the two ones you could have.
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There were no, like, you know, in inverted commas weak emotions allowed.
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So it was all, you know, leading with strength, or you know, uh presumed strength.
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Of course it wasn't, but um, because we all know vulnerability is much stronger than just like mouthing off at everybody.
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But I think it was a very sort of 1980s kind of approach, you know.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Like none of us got taught this stuff.
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And when I say none, I'm obviously generalizing.
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Most people did not grow up with parents who were aware of emotional intelligence or spoke about emotions.
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Most of us were, as you said, sort of sweep it under the rug, get over it, go to your room till you're calm, then you can come out, or I'll give you something to cry about.
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It starts with um acknowledging and accepting that our kids or the other person has emotions, like they're feeling some kind of way, accepting that rather than dismissing it, denying it, making light of it or whatever.
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And then um really validating, like, okay, I get that you're feeling this, or I get that you're upset about that, or something is going on, I don't know what it is, and then taking steps to manage our behavior in that situation or in that relationship, manage what we say.
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So to my kids, most of the time, but I am human, most of the time I'll say, What's up?
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Like, are you okay?
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Or that doesn't sound like you, or I'll I'll do that rather than just shutting it down, because then I know I'm I can help my kids process whatever they're feeling in the situation um that happened at school earlier today.
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I can help them process that much quicker.
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And we get on with our day.
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So yeah.
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And I think as we know as adults, right, that if somebody just gives us space to express how we're feeling and maybe just work through it a little bit, it disappears much more quickly.
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It takes that air out much more quickly than there's nothing worse than when you go to someone, oh, I'm feeling really sad, they'll go, like, oh, you think you're sad, look at what happened to me today.
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And it's like, oh my God, can I have a minute?
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Please.
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Like, just I think the the ability for us to, and this comes to the empathy piece, to allow someone else to not feel okay and to sit in that space of like, I'm really mad, I'm really upset, I'm really disappointed, I'm really anxious, or whatever that feeling is.
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When we can allow them to sit in that and validate it, even if we don't agree, we can say, that makes sense how you feel, or I get it, and I see that you are feeling XYZ.
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That, as you said, it takes away the intensity and the heat for them because they feel like, thank you, you get it.
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Like this is big and I am struggling with it, rather than getting the opposite and thinking, you don't get it, you're not listening.
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No, it is a big thing.
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It's I've been dealing with it for weeks, and she won't let it go.
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Like, it's it's simple stuff, but so part of me thinks it's not rocket science, but then my God, none of us got taught this.
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So, so we all do the opposite, and then we wonder why we have people who, you know, are really struggling with mental health and well-being and things like that.
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Or who like don't tell us what's going on in their lives because what's the point?
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Um, and what about that tendency, especially as parents, I think all we want to do is protect our kids and love our kids and fix everything for our kids.
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And so, and kids' problems are so like mostly so basic, right?
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Um we know the answer.
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Yeah, yes.
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So, like, when is the right time to go?
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Okay, here's what you need to do.
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Okay, so let me let me like we I want to go back to what you said.
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We know the answer so often as kids.
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We know the solution.
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We can see it.
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Just talk to your friend tomorrow at school, just text them and ask what they meant by that message.
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Or, you know, go and talk to your sister and say, that's not okay.
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And like whatever, we can see the solution because we are older, we have a more developed brain, we have so much more life experience.
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But that's like, I don't know, if this is a if this is a helpful metaphor.
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If we had a huge problem in our relationship or, you know, and something that was going for on for us or at work, and then we had this like sage-wise 80-year-old who was like, Oh my, you're worried, I was in the war, like this is nothing.
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You know, we didn't have food.
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Yes, thank you.
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And, you know, all of that is true, and I'm not at that stage, and this is big for me, and I'm struggling, and I need some help to get through it.
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So, yes, even though a lot of the time my kids will come to me and they have a problem or they're upset about something or they're mad about what I've said or like a boundary of no, you can't have six cookies, whatever it is.
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Um I have to remind myself that yeah, it's a big thing to them.
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They're struggling with it, they're not okay yet.
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If they could just handle it more maturely and let it go because it's not a big deal, they freaking would, because then they'd be on with their day watching TV or playing on the computer or whatever they're doing.
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So um, yeah, we have to kind of remind ourselves, even though it's small to our kids, again, we go back to just validate it, empathize a little bit.
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Wow, that really sucks.
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I can't believe she did that.
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You were working so hard on it.
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What do you want to do now?
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You know, do you want to go talk to her or do you want to um play something else?
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Do you want to text your friend or do you want to talk to him tomorrow at school?
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Like that's the problem solving, I think the solution stuff you were sort of talking about.
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When do we like solve?
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That has to come a little bit later.
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Because if we do it too soon, our kids are not ready.
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They're sitting in the emotion, they're cranky, they're upset, or they're anxious, whatever it is.
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And if we go into a bit of the neuroscience, their frontal lobe is not really online in order to think rationally and logically and to and to think of solutions.
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They're just sitting in, this is the worst, I hate it, it's never gonna change, and the world is over.
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So we've got to allow a bit of it.
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They don't have the life experience yet to have seen that it passes.
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Yeah, I think that's you know, an advantage we have as as adults is that we've been through something similar before, maybe not the same thing, but we know most of the time that this will pass, this too will pass, is like so true and so annoying at the same time.
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Um, so you know, we have that experience, we have that knowledge.
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They don't have that.
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But I like what you said about you offering them so you like you you were sort of offering them solutions, but also a choice, you know, would you like to do this thing or this thing, which gives them that agency as well, which is so lovely.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think sometimes maybe with older kids, they can make some of those choices on their own without our guidance or scaffolding.
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Younger kids definitely need that kind of my therapist's brain goes into binary choice, this or that.
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Like we vet the choices and the solutions, but we and we know they're going to be helpful.
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But then they get to have that agency and make the decision.
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But yeah, sometimes, sometimes older kids and sometimes if this is a situation with another adult, sometimes it is really helpful to provide almost kickstarts a bit of the, I know you're in this space, but let's think forward.
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Because this will pass, as you said, Carolyn.
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Let's get you moving on and processing.
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Um, you know, there there's it gives that sense of agency, that autonomy of like, okay, I can get through this and I've I've got some choices and options.
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Sometimes we do need that.
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And that's I always think if it's kids or adults or whoever, I'm like, anyone who's in relationship with anyone else, it's this, it's this reciprocal of I'll help you.
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What do you need?
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This is really hard.
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I'm here for you.
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Like it's I I don't think it should be any different with kids and adults in those in those times of stress or conflict.
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Um, you know, I I think all of us should be help helpful, compassionate, empathetic, kind, rather than like, sorry, you got yourself into this mess and you're an adult, I don't need to help you.
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Or, you know, you're you're 12 now.
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I'm like, come on, like let's just be kind and yeah, help each other out.
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I'm just going to pause our chat with Stephanie here for a moment to say this.
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If you're in the early part of your separation and you're making decisions about your children faster than you can even think straight about them, someone asks you, you know, what the schedule's going to look like.
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:39.759
Somebody mentions a binding agreement, and then you're up at 11 o'clock at night Googling terms you've never heard of a month ago, trying to work out whether you've just agreed to something you can't undo.
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:50.159
And underneath all that, there's a worry about being difficult, challenging, about being the one who slows everything down by asking questions, or about not taking care of your kids the way that you want to.
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.240
The separated mothers toolkit exists so you can stop guessing.
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:59.279
A family lawyer explains what a parenting plan is and how it differs from a binding agreement.
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:03.679
There's what child support actually means and what Centerlink will and won't do for you.
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:10.960
And there's a parenting coach and a teen counsellor talking about what your children need from you while all of this is going on.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.159
What changes isn't how you feel about the divorce.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:22.639
What changes is that you can walk into the next conversation knowing what the words mean, what's expected, and what's still up for negotiation.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:27.039
And you can stop agreeing to things because you didn't know that you could ask.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:31.759
$49 Built for Australian mothers at women's divorceacademy.com.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.840
Also the links in the show notes.
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Right?
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Let's get back to Stephanie.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like there's a little bit of a childish uh well, a child in in all of us that is like so happy that we know the answer.
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Or, you know, we and we still love being right, right?
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Like it's which is very emotionally intelligent of us.
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But we're like, you know, I told you not to play with her.
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I told you she'd push you off the swing.
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She's done it before.
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I'd we can never learn.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think sometimes um that's where we, if we can dial up our our emotional intelligence for ourselves and our own self-awareness of, whoa, I do do that.
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I do swoop in and I do jump in, or I am feeling like this is ridiculous.
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Come on.
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Like when we can acknowledge that and be a little bit more um, have that internal self-awareness, that that's actually really helpful.
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Because we we know then sometimes when we're adding fuel to the fire and we're making a situation worse.
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And and we don't have to do that.
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We can still, our kid will get through the thing.
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If we are this this idea of like an oak tree, I'm solid, this is hard, but we will get through it and I'm on your team.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.279
And what do you need from me?
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:51.039
Like I feel like that's I mean, it's not always possible because gosh, we're going through our own stuff as well.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:18:03.359
But that's you know, and maybe we can talk at some point about when we do crumble and things are really hard and we're we have those ruptures and we snap at our kids or we we do and say something that we usually wouldn't.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:10.960
Like that's also you know, we we um we need to be aware of what we're doing then and take steps to kind of repair and things like that.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:28.240
Yeah, and that actually perfectly leads into what I was going to ask you next, which is when a woman, you know, the women that I work with um in Women's Divorce Academy going through, you know, one of the toughest times in your life, often you're not feeling super emotionally intelligent yourself, especially if maybe you don't have the basis already set up for that.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.759
Like, you know, you've you're suddenly dealing with this thing that's really hard.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:40.319
You've got kids who are going through a hard time and you are, yeah, you are not showing up perfectly all the time, of course.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:53.599
How do you balance that kind of, you know, this is you know, we we have a and I will swear now, so uh uh apologies, but uh my friends and I have a joke which we um AFGO, which is another fucking growth opportunity.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.559
Um, you know, anytime something bad happens, we go, AFGO.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:58.480
I love that.
00:18:59.039 --> 00:18:59.839
I'm gonna steal it.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:11.359
And uh and and and this is one of those things that, you know, when you look back, you know, we talk about post-traumatic growth and all those sorts of things, but when you're in the middle of it, you're not going, yay, I'm growing.
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.000
You're going, I like I am stressed to the max.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.039
I've got all this stuff going on.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.519
I don't know how I'm gonna pay my bills, I've got to find a job, I've got to, you know, take care of the kids.
00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:24.079
One of them's acting out, you know, one of them doesn't want to go to their other parents' place, like whatever it is.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:36.000
How when sort of when your life feels a bit on fire, what are some things that you can do to just calm it down, slow things down, and just do the best you can with that?
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:37.279
I love that.
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:45.039
Okay, so I always come back to that quote, don't know whoever first said it, that you can only control yourself, no one else.
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:54.640
You have the ability to show up in any way you want, regardless of your habits and your personality traits and things like that.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:01.119
I have like this underlying uh anxiety that's my kind of undercurrent from since since I was a kid, right?
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.640
So I'm always second guessing and overthinking and checking and things like that.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:25.119
Um and so despite that, eve in in any situation that we're in or any um interaction that we're faced with, even in those individually, we have the opportunity to choose who we want to become in the face of that.
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:25.440
Okay.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.839
And that's how am I gonna show up?
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:29.759
How am I going to communicate here?
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.480
Am I going to jump in and flip my lid and sort this out right now?
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:39.279
Or am I going to pause and go, whoa, this is a A G, what'd you say?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.200
A F G O.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.279
Is this an AFGO?
00:20:43.519 --> 00:21:00.319
Like I think the um it's really, really powerful for us, especially as women and as mums, to have uh the space to pause before we respond to a situation or to a person or what they've just said.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.440
It's not easy.
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:07.599
Oh my god, it is not easy, but we can cultivate that um skill in a way.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:13.599
In the emotional intelligence space, we talk a lot about responding versus reacting or respond, not react.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:27.680
And uh sometimes I will do a whole like a podcast episode on it or a whole workshop on like how do we go from reacting instinctively, like knee jerk, like it's it's unintentional and the words just come out or the text just get sent.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:45.680
But how do we actually flip that and start to choose a more intentional response that's thoughtful, it's thought out, I've put energy into it and it feels right and I'm in the right time or space that I can send this message or have this conversation.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:59.440
So it it does sound a little bit like airy fairy kind of I I get that, but if we can maybe some practical takeaways, can we start practicing in in whatever situation that we're in, could be with our um our kids, could be with our ex partner, whoever.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:11.039
To start forcing ourselves to pause before we respond, before we send the text, before we before we even open the email, if we think, oh my God, it's from him.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.319
Am I in the right space to like check this now?
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.079
Because I'm in the middle of work and I've got this huge project and I'm just seeing this come through.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:25.680
So I think um if we you spoke a bit before about agency and things like that.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.000
I think we, you know, we've got the ability to choose how do I want to behave here?
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.039
How do I want to show up?
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.319
Who do I want to be?
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:37.039
Maybe I don't want to be who I used to be in this relationship or in another one.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.960
Now I'm choosing to be this.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.759
And and you know, you can model off people around you or people in the space or you.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.200
Like I want to be more like Carolyn.
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:47.680
She's decisive and she's got a fire up her butt.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:48.400
What would she do?
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.599
What would Carolyn do?
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:50.640
So yeah.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.559
I need to create an AI app of just what would Carolyn do?
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:57.599
It wouldn't always be wise, but it would always be fun.
00:22:58.640 --> 00:22:59.039
Yeah.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:22:59.680
Yeah.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:01.920
Um it's a really good point.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.319
And I something we talk about a lot too is never say anything that you wouldn't want read out in court or to appear on the front page of a newspaper back when we had newspapers.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:15.920
But you know, when you write something down and you've lost control of it, that's not yours anymore.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:22.160
So, and you're going through something tough that could, you know, and things get used against you, even in the most amicable situations.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:24.000
I see it all the time.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:30.799
And I love it when people are in amicable situations, but I see every week I see someone who thought they were amicable and then they weren't.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.279
And then, you know, there's there's things used against them.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:46.799
And so it's something that we always come back to is never send anything that you don't want your grandmother to read, you want to don't want a judge to read in court, you don't want, you know, a reporter to put in a story somewhere because you never know.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.960
Um, you know, or that your ex or your kids might even see, you know.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:51.759
And yeah.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:55.119
One day they'll be older, and who knows?
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:55.519
Yeah.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.000
Yeah.
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:57.119
That that's so right.
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:08.559
And, you know, kids go through my phone and they'll read messages that I've sent to someone else, and um, and I think, no, like I was saying that I don't, you know, I'm not gonna um book you in for this because I can't, I don't have the time.
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.000
And, you know, um, and then it was about the child who read the message.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:30.079
And so yeah, I I just think it's um it's it's good to be wise, to be able to pause and make good decisions, knowing that your emotional state has a huge impact on your words and your behavior and your decisions.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:39.279
So that's why they say like never make decisions in the heat of the moment, whether that's you're in the depths of despair or whether you're overjoyed because you've won the lottery and you're gonna give it to all your family and friends.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:40.000
Hang on.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:25:02.559
When when your emotions settle, your logical, rational brain comes back online and you do have um uh the ability to access a whole lot more of um situational awareness and and foresight and hindsight and all of these great kind of cognitive skills that would actually help you make a really good decision, not just based on how you're feeling in the moment.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.920
So um to your point, really good.
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:06.480
Yeah.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:11.519
And I think a practical thing that I learned very early on is I have Gmail.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:18.319
And I don't know if other ones do it too, but you can you can funnel your emails into folders and they skip your inbox.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:29.039
So I would make sure every email that came from uh my ex-husband would go into a special folder and once a week I would sit down and gird my loins and go, okay, it's time to have a look.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:29.440
Yeah.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:44.880
Yeah, I seriously considered at one point hiring someone off like fiver.com to just go through it for me and take dot points of the things I needed to address because it was so full of emotion and so full of, you know, really challenging things that I did consider that.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.240
And then I thought, oh, I might miss something, I better not, you know, there's kids involved.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.240
So I didn't, but I did, yeah, just make sure that once a week I sat down and did that.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.880
And then another day, and I and I told him I was doing this.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:00.880
So say it was like a Sunday, for instance, I would read them and then I would answer them by the Wednesday.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:02.400
So I'd have some time.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:07.359
Um, he would know by the Wednesday he'll have an answer, so he wouldn't be harassing me for it mostly.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.599
Um, and you know, I I had some time, which was really useful.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.359
I I really like that um that careful decision making.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:26.079
And I I wonder what if you were you took time to get to that after realizing that the way you were doing it wasn't working or it was too stressful, um, and then you put in place those boundaries.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:55.599
And I think, yeah, if if we can um really attune to our emotional state and realize that when we are seeing red and we are in the depths of frustration or anger or whatever, that that's not the best time to read an email or to make a decision or to respond, like, gosh, you are it's it's it's worth its weight in gold when you know this is not the time because I'm gonna say something I regret and it might be read out in court or whatever.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:58.880
Um, I think to make really good intentional decisions.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:00.799
Um, sometimes we can't do that on our own.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:12.960
We need someone like you, in the community that you have, or we need a, you know, our our mom or a friend to say, okay, here like I'm gonna, I'm gonna make these rules for you, and then you can put the boundaries in place when you're ready.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:24.400
But I think um making intentional, um, well-thought-out decisions in spite of however you feel, um, almost like a business transactional relationship.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:25.519
So this is what works.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:26.079
I don't know.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.039
Does that make sense?
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:28.640
It does make sense, yeah.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.400
Because that's something I've read about before too.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:38.000
And this is sort of usually more down the track with treating your ex, if you're co-parenting, treating your ex like a colleague, like we're both working on this project together.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.359
We don't have to be friends, we just have to get this done, you know.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:51.039
Um, because uh a mistake I think a lot of women make that I see is that they still think their ex should care about their feelings.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:54.079
And then they're really upset when they don't.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:04.960
And it's it sounds really harsh, but you know, a lot of the time, depending on who made the call and what's been happening, you know, a lot a lot of the women that are upset about w about that.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:13.759
Um sorry, we're digressing off our topic, but I just but I just think it's really interesting that a lot of women who feel upset about that uh, you know, are the ones who were left.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:21.599
Um, and maybe he's moved on and he's got like a new partner, which is, you know, classic, and um often from the office or from the gym.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:29.279
And uh and she's like, well, hang on a second, we just spent 25 years together and now I'm here and I'm sad and you don't even care.
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.759
Um, he's off living his best life.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:40.240
Um and it's just a matter of making, I think there's a you have to make peace with that and stay in your lane and go, well, what's what's my big picture now?
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:41.200
Who's looking after me?
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:41.599
It's me.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.559
I'm looking after me.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.839
And I have these beautiful friends and these beautiful children and all these things, but it's not his job anymore to look after me.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.720
And that can be a really tough pill to swallow, I think.
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:52.720
Yes, and I I agree with you.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:58.799
I think if we can, this is almost like a bit radical, a bit of a radical idea.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:11.680
If we can take 100% ownership over our own emotions and emotional state and happiness, if you just call it that, being happy, then no one else is responsible for that but you.
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.599
And don't get me wrong, I lean on my friends and family, and if they're unhappy, I'm unhappy.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:20.720
Like it's not again, I'm not saying this is easy and just chop it, like chop it off, sort of thing.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:36.720
But I think keeping that in mind, especially when a relationship is broken down and there isn't that care or empathy anymore, you can either sit in the pain of that, and sometimes we do need to for a period of time because that's real and it's raw.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:44.559
But then also, again, we I come back to every situation that we're faced with is an opportunity for us to decide who do I want to be in the face of this?
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:45.920
How am I gonna show up?
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.000
Am I gonna let this pull me down?
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:49.759
Or am I, I am I gonna move on?
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:57.119
Am I gonna be responsible for myself and my feelings and my kids and and put us first and sort of shift that hierarchy?
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:59.680
And sorry, he is now over there.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:04.880
Um, so it's yeah, it's it's a great way to kind of think about it and just contemplate, I think.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:13.519
Yeah, I I have a friend who's sort of in the middle of of this sort of thing at the moment, and she was for a few months, she was, oh no, what am I gonna do?
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:14.400
Where am I gonna live?
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.200
What's gonna happen?
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:16.319
Worried about everything.
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:26.160
And then we recently had a conversation which was so lovely because she she said she suddenly had this realization that she can do anything, she can move to the beach, she can start this new life.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.079
And she was like, Oh my god, this is incredible.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:35.839
There's so much opportunity, and it's so nice to see that light come on of like it's not, yes, it's and and not diminishing how hard it is, it's really hard.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:46.000
But with any ending comes new beginnings, and you know, you don't have to compromise with somebody who, you know, might not like your ideas.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:52.880
You can think about what you want to do and and and just make it happen, which is there's not many times in your life that you get that.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.880
It's it's pretty cool once you get to it, but it is a journey to get to that.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:58.640
It's it's almost liberating.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:03.440
Oh, it's incredibly liberating when you get to that point.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.240
Um when you're in it, it doesn't it doesn't feel like that.
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.160
I wonder I wonder what you think about this, Carolyn.
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:20.240
Is it true that a person may have moments of that sort of like windows or sparks, but then they'll fall back into the grief or the the sadness and the anger and things like that.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.200
I I wonder if that's um if that has resonated with people who are listening.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:25.920
Do you know what I mean?
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:26.079
Yeah.
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:29.759
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:39.440
And I know for me, when before I left, because I I called time on my marriage and I had this idea even before, you know, it died a slow death, it withered on the vine over, you know, some years.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:42.880
And and so by the time it finished, it was like this massive relief.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:53.759
And I was I had all these ideas of all the things I was going to do, but then I had this inexplicable grief after we separated of all of the things that I'd lost, even though I'd sort of grieved it for a long time.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:55.519
But then it just, yeah, it came back again.
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.480
This whole, oh my gosh, what happened to my life, right?
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.799
This is not what I had planned, you know.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.680
And um, and yeah, I I think the women I work with too see that they they have moments of that.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.400
That's the end of part one of my chat with Stephanie Pinto.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:22.880
The line I keep coming back to is hers about choosing who you want to be in the face of a situation.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:31.519
Not who you were in the marriage and not who you'll be in five years or who you are with your sister, who you are in the 10 seconds before you hit send.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.200
That's a small window.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.480
It's also close to the only part of this that you can control.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:41.279
And the other half of it is the relief and the grief that turn up together.
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:46.240
You can be certain you did the right thing and still be flattened by all that you've lost.
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:48.319
I totally understand what that feels like.
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:51.119
Those two sit side by side for a lot of us.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:57.759
Stephanie's book is from Chaos to Connection, and she runs a Facebook group called Let's Raise Emotionally Intelligent Kids.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.200
Both are in the show notes.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.720
Next episode, Steph and I turn to the kids.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:11.680
What to do when your children are running their own version of this, how to build a household culture that's actually yours, and how to handle the house that you have no control over.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:13.759
Thanks for listening today.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:29.920
If doing this alone feels heavy, Women's Divorce Academy offers clear guidance, practical tools, and a supportive community for the legal, financial, and emotional realities of divorce.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:36.000
Whether you're considering separation in the middle of it or rebuilding afterwards, there's something here for you.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.799
Find us at Women's DivorceAcademy.com.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.240
Imagine there's an email sitting in your inbox.
00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:03.520
It's from your ex.
00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:12.400
You haven't opened it yet, but you've got a good idea of what's in it, and you know that once you read it, you'll be typing a reply before you even get to the finish.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:14.080
That was me for a long time.
00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:19.039
Then I set up a folder in Gmail, so his emails skipped my inbox entirely.
00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:29.199
I read them once a week on a Sunday after girding my loins, and I would answer by the Wednesday, so I had a few days to process and to think about things.
00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:40.240
That sounds like a small admin thing, but it made a huge difference not only between responding and reacting, but also how my mental health went during my separation.
00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:42.560
My guest today is Stephanie Pinto.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:46.880
Stephanie is an emotional intelligence coach and a pediatric anxiety therapist.
00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:51.840
She wrote from Chaos to Connection and she hosts the Emotionally Intelligent Parenting Podcast.
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:56.079
Now, I invited Stephanie on to talk about raising emotionally intelligent children.
00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.840
That's her work, and that's what I thought we were going to talk about.
00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:17.840
But Steph and I had a great chat, and we do get to the children a little bit today, but the conversation kept turning us back to what emotional intelligence looks like for us on the days when we feel like we don't have any and when we're going through a really hard thing, when your life is on fire and you don't even have a word for how you're feeling.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.680
The conversation was too good to cut, so I've split it in two.
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:23.920
Today is mostly about you.
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:31.359
Next week we'll talk much more about how to help your children be more emotionally intelligent.
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:46.159
Today we talk about what emotional intelligence is, why empathy without boundaries doesn't help anyone, and why the ability to pause before you respond is worth more in a separation than almost anything else that you can learn.
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.560
I really think you'll get something useful out of this one.
00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:50.000
Let's get started.
00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:58.879
I'm Carolyn Tate, founder of Women's Divorce Academy, and your guide to turning your divorce into the best thing that ever happened to you.
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.200
This is Divorce with Carolyn.
00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:12.000
Can we start with something really obvious?
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:15.120
What is emotional intelligence and why is it important?
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:23.759
Yeah, yeah, let's start there because I I feel like it's still a bit of a buzzword and people don't really understand the kind of depth of it and what it means.
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Generally speaking, it's our ability to be aware of and manage our emotions and our behavior well in relationships or in any situation.
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If we want to go a teensy bit deeper, it's really being aware of our own emotions and those of other people in the moment and to use that information to um manage our behavior, to make good decisions and to be resilient, right?
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So there's I like how there's that two-piece sort of the double side there.
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I have to be be able to be aware of and manage my own emotions, but also understanding that other people, my kids or um my partner or someone else, my neighbor, my boss, they also have their own emotional state and their own stuff that they're going through and and understanding and honoring that and then making decisions about you know how I communicate or what I do or boundaries or anything.
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And I like I like that you mentioned resilience because that's something we talk about a lot.
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And also um there's a lot of empathy in there too, right?
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Understanding how other people feel.
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Yeah.
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So on that, I'm glad you brought that up actually.
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Empathy, a a lot of people do still think emotional intelligence really a huge part of it, is empathy.
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And then not wrong, but it's not just about being empathetic to other people and um, you know, giving them grace if they're snappy or rude or something.
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That that is a part of it.
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But it's also when other people are experiencing some kind of upheaval or chaos or or emotional um, you know, uh situation, we're allowed to have boundaries and we're allowed to understand and validate that that person, whoa, they are not usually like that, or they are really something is up with them.
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I think that's really helpful.
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Um, so we can be empathetic and yet have boundaries or or be able to communicate in a way that says, hey, that's that's not okay, or I didn't deserve that, or can we talk about this?
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So yeah, it is it's quite complex actually.
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And I like that too about the boundaries because I think especially women and mums, you know, we make the mistake of of just being kind to a fault and giving so much of ourselves when really that's not helping anybody.
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And there's always, you know, that talk about you can't pour from an empty cup.
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So um, you know, and we'll get into that a bit more, obviously, as we chat.
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But I think, yeah, all of it is so it's interesting that it's all tied up in that emotional intelligence piece.
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But children, of course, are correct me if I'm wrong, pretty egocentric.
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Um minor.
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And um, so how what does emotional intelligence look like at a child's level at maybe different ages?
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Yep, yeah.
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So so it starts off very, very basic.
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And if we think about, if I just quickly go back to when we're when you know we're infants, we have zero emotional intelligence.
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We have zero ability to regulate our emotions.
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Our mum or carer, someone does that for us.
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So if we are hungry, cold, tired, what we cry.
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Like that's it.
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And so zero ability to pause and think about how do I deal with this in a better way, how do I use um my use my words to communicate what I need?
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No, that doesn't happen.
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So obviously that comes along with the first words and being able to um being able to communicate.
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Uh, I was a speech pathologist in a previous life, so before I moved into this, I so I'm very much aware of how powerful communication is.
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And so, as you were saying, Carolyn, with kids, what does it look like?
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Even with toddlers, we can help them to name their emotions.
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It sounds wildly simple and stupid and pointless, but actually, kids who grow up with a limited emotional vocabulary, happy, sad, mad, and things like that, we know, we know from research it's not enough.
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It's not enough.
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We call it emotional granularity, the ability to really name the nuanced sensations and emotions that we're feeling.
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Because let's say, even for for a child, something happens to them and they fall off their scooter and bump their knee, or they have an argument with a sibling.
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If they just say, I'm feeling bad, or I'm really mad, we they they they can miss and we miss the specifics of what's actually happened.
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They might be hurt because their brother has pushed them, or they might be disappointed because they didn't get um something they were hoping for, or they might be anxious and afraid of that thing that's coming up.
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So to give our kids, um, we often just say, name it to tame it in the emotional intelligence space, if we can help our kids by helping them to name emotions and just recognizing them well with our best guess, naming them, um, being a little bit more specific.
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Oh, you look really frustrated, um, rather than why are you so mad or what's wrong with you, or like suck it up, things like that.
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Um, and giving them that emotional vocabulary.
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Again, it sounds really simple, but whoa, like I don't know, most of us did not get that.
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And um it kind of and it does sound simple, and yet I know many adults who can't name more than four feelings too.
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So yeah.
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One of them often is pissed off.
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I'm like, that's not an emotion.
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Yeah.
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I have a friend who uh grew up in a house.
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She always says there were only two emotions allowed.
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It was either angry or happy.
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Those are the two ones you could have.
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There were no, like, you know, in inverted commas weak emotions allowed.
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So it was all, you know, leading with strength, or you know, uh presumed strength.
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Of course it wasn't, but um, because we all know vulnerability is much stronger than just like mouthing off at everybody.
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But I think it was a very sort of 1980s kind of approach, you know.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Like none of us got taught this stuff.
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And when I say none, I'm obviously generalizing.
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Most people did not grow up with parents who were aware of emotional intelligence or spoke about emotions.
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Most of us were, as you said, sort of sweep it under the rug, get over it, go to your room till you're calm, then you can come out, or I'll give you something to cry about.
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It starts with um acknowledging and accepting that our kids or the other person has emotions, like they're feeling some kind of way, accepting that rather than dismissing it, denying it, making light of it or whatever.
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And then um really validating, like, okay, I get that you're feeling this, or I get that you're upset about that, or something is going on, I don't know what it is, and then taking steps to manage our behavior in that situation or in that relationship, manage what we say.
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So to my kids, most of the time, but I am human, most of the time I'll say, What's up?
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Like, are you okay?
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Or that doesn't sound like you, or I'll I'll do that rather than just shutting it down, because then I know I'm I can help my kids process whatever they're feeling in the situation um that happened at school earlier today.
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I can help them process that much quicker.
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And we get on with our day.
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So yeah.
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And I think as we know as adults, right, that if somebody just gives us space to express how we're feeling and maybe just work through it a little bit, it disappears much more quickly.
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It takes that air out much more quickly than there's nothing worse than when you go to someone, oh, I'm feeling really sad, they'll go, like, oh, you think you're sad, look at what happened to me today.
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And it's like, oh my God, can I have a minute?
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Please.
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Like, just I think the the ability for us to, and this comes to the empathy piece, to allow someone else to not feel okay and to sit in that space of like, I'm really mad, I'm really upset, I'm really disappointed, I'm really anxious, or whatever that feeling is.
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When we can allow them to sit in that and validate it, even if we don't agree, we can say, that makes sense how you feel, or I get it, and I see that you are feeling XYZ.
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That, as you said, it takes away the intensity and the heat for them because they feel like, thank you, you get it.
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Like this is big and I am struggling with it, rather than getting the opposite and thinking, you don't get it, you're not listening.
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No, it is a big thing.
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It's I've been dealing with it for weeks, and she won't let it go.
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Like, it's it's simple stuff, but so part of me thinks it's not rocket science, but then my God, none of us got taught this.
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So, so we all do the opposite, and then we wonder why we have people who, you know, are really struggling with mental health and well-being and things like that.
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Or who like don't tell us what's going on in their lives because what's the point?
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Um, and what about that tendency, especially as parents, I think all we want to do is protect our kids and love our kids and fix everything for our kids.
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And so, and kids' problems are so like mostly so basic, right?
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Um we know the answer.
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Yeah, yes.
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So, like, when is the right time to go?
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Okay, here's what you need to do.
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Okay, so let me let me like we I want to go back to what you said.
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We know the answer so often as kids.
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We know the solution.
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We can see it.
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Just talk to your friend tomorrow at school, just text them and ask what they meant by that message.
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Or, you know, go and talk to your sister and say, that's not okay.
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And like whatever, we can see the solution because we are older, we have a more developed brain, we have so much more life experience.
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But that's like, I don't know, if this is a if this is a helpful metaphor.
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If we had a huge problem in our relationship or, you know, and something that was going for on for us or at work, and then we had this like sage-wise 80-year-old who was like, Oh my, you're worried, I was in the war, like this is nothing.
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You know, we didn't have food.
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Yes, thank you.
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And, you know, all of that is true, and I'm not at that stage, and this is big for me, and I'm struggling, and I need some help to get through it.
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So, yes, even though a lot of the time my kids will come to me and they have a problem or they're upset about something or they're mad about what I've said or like a boundary of no, you can't have six cookies, whatever it is.
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Um I have to remind myself that yeah, it's a big thing to them.
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They're struggling with it, they're not okay yet.
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If they could just handle it more maturely and let it go because it's not a big deal, they freaking would, because then they'd be on with their day watching TV or playing on the computer or whatever they're doing.
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So um, yeah, we have to kind of remind ourselves, even though it's small to our kids, again, we go back to just validate it, empathize a little bit.
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Wow, that really sucks.
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I can't believe she did that.
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You were working so hard on it.
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What do you want to do now?
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You know, do you want to go talk to her or do you want to um play something else?
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Do you want to text your friend or do you want to talk to him tomorrow at school?
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Like that's the problem solving, I think the solution stuff you were sort of talking about.
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When do we like solve?
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That has to come a little bit later.
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Because if we do it too soon, our kids are not ready.
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They're sitting in the emotion, they're cranky, they're upset, or they're anxious, whatever it is.
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And if we go into a bit of the neuroscience, their frontal lobe is not really online in order to think rationally and logically and to and to think of solutions.
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They're just sitting in, this is the worst, I hate it, it's never gonna change, and the world is over.
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So we've got to allow a bit of it.
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They don't have the life experience yet to have seen that it passes.
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Yeah, I think that's you know, an advantage we have as as adults is that we've been through something similar before, maybe not the same thing, but we know most of the time that this will pass, this too will pass, is like so true and so annoying at the same time.
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Um, so you know, we have that experience, we have that knowledge.
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They don't have that.
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But I like what you said about you offering them so you like you you were sort of offering them solutions, but also a choice, you know, would you like to do this thing or this thing, which gives them that agency as well, which is so lovely.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think sometimes maybe with older kids, they can make some of those choices on their own without our guidance or scaffolding.
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Younger kids definitely need that kind of my therapist's brain goes into binary choice, this or that.
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Like we vet the choices and the solutions, but we and we know they're going to be helpful.
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But then they get to have that agency and make the decision.
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But yeah, sometimes, sometimes older kids and sometimes if this is a situation with another adult, sometimes it is really helpful to provide almost kickstarts a bit of the, I know you're in this space, but let's think forward.
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Because this will pass, as you said, Carolyn.
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Let's get you moving on and processing.
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Um, you know, there there's it gives that sense of agency, that autonomy of like, okay, I can get through this and I've I've got some choices and options.
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Sometimes we do need that.
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And that's I always think if it's kids or adults or whoever, I'm like, anyone who's in relationship with anyone else, it's this, it's this reciprocal of I'll help you.
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What do you need?
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This is really hard.
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I'm here for you.
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Like it's I I don't think it should be any different with kids and adults in those in those times of stress or conflict.
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Um, you know, I I think all of us should be help helpful, compassionate, empathetic, kind, rather than like, sorry, you got yourself into this mess and you're an adult, I don't need to help you.
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Or, you know, you're you're 12 now.
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I'm like, come on, like let's just be kind and yeah, help each other out.
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:19.600
I'm just going to pause our chat with Stephanie here for a moment to say this.
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:29.759
If you're in the early part of your separation and you're making decisions about your children faster than you can even think straight about them, someone asks you, you know, what the schedule's going to look like.
00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:39.759
Somebody mentions a binding agreement, and then you're up at 11 o'clock at night Googling terms you've never heard of a month ago, trying to work out whether you've just agreed to something you can't undo.
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:50.159
And underneath all that, there's a worry about being difficult, challenging, about being the one who slows everything down by asking questions, or about not taking care of your kids the way that you want to.
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.240
The separated mothers toolkit exists so you can stop guessing.
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:59.279
A family lawyer explains what a parenting plan is and how it differs from a binding agreement.
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:03.679
There's what child support actually means and what Centerlink will and won't do for you.
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:10.960
And there's a parenting coach and a teen counsellor talking about what your children need from you while all of this is going on.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.159
What changes isn't how you feel about the divorce.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:22.639
What changes is that you can walk into the next conversation knowing what the words mean, what's expected, and what's still up for negotiation.
00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:27.039
And you can stop agreeing to things because you didn't know that you could ask.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:31.759
$49 Built for Australian mothers at women's divorceacademy.com.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.840
Also the links in the show notes.
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:34.240
Right?
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Let's get back to Stephanie.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like there's a little bit of a childish uh well, a child in in all of us that is like so happy that we know the answer.
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Or, you know, we and we still love being right, right?
00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.519
Like it's which is very emotionally intelligent of us.
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But we're like, you know, I told you not to play with her.
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I told you she'd push you off the swing.
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She's done it before.
00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:01.600
I'd we can never learn.
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:02.320
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think sometimes um that's where we, if we can dial up our our emotional intelligence for ourselves and our own self-awareness of, whoa, I do do that.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.519
I do swoop in and I do jump in, or I am feeling like this is ridiculous.
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Come on.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:25.839
Like when we can acknowledge that and be a little bit more um, have that internal self-awareness, that that's actually really helpful.
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Because we we know then sometimes when we're adding fuel to the fire and we're making a situation worse.
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And and we don't have to do that.
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We can still, our kid will get through the thing.
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If we are this this idea of like an oak tree, I'm solid, this is hard, but we will get through it and I'm on your team.
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And what do you need from me?
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:51.039
Like I feel like that's I mean, it's not always possible because gosh, we're going through our own stuff as well.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:18:03.359
But that's you know, and maybe we can talk at some point about when we do crumble and things are really hard and we're we have those ruptures and we snap at our kids or we we do and say something that we usually wouldn't.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:10.960
Like that's also you know, we we um we need to be aware of what we're doing then and take steps to kind of repair and things like that.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:28.240
Yeah, and that actually perfectly leads into what I was going to ask you next, which is when a woman, you know, the women that I work with um in Women's Divorce Academy going through, you know, one of the toughest times in your life, often you're not feeling super emotionally intelligent yourself, especially if maybe you don't have the basis already set up for that.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.759
Like, you know, you've you're suddenly dealing with this thing that's really hard.
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You've got kids who are going through a hard time and you are, yeah, you are not showing up perfectly all the time, of course.
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How do you balance that kind of, you know, this is you know, we we have a and I will swear now, so uh uh apologies, but uh my friends and I have a joke which we um AFGO, which is another fucking growth opportunity.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.559
Um, you know, anytime something bad happens, we go, AFGO.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:58.480
I love that.
00:18:59.039 --> 00:18:59.839
I'm gonna steal it.
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And uh and and and this is one of those things that, you know, when you look back, you know, we talk about post-traumatic growth and all those sorts of things, but when you're in the middle of it, you're not going, yay, I'm growing.
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You're going, I like I am stressed to the max.
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I've got all this stuff going on.
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I don't know how I'm gonna pay my bills, I've got to find a job, I've got to, you know, take care of the kids.
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One of them's acting out, you know, one of them doesn't want to go to their other parents' place, like whatever it is.
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How when sort of when your life feels a bit on fire, what are some things that you can do to just calm it down, slow things down, and just do the best you can with that?
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:37.279
I love that.
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:45.039
Okay, so I always come back to that quote, don't know whoever first said it, that you can only control yourself, no one else.
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:54.640
You have the ability to show up in any way you want, regardless of your habits and your personality traits and things like that.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:01.119
I have like this underlying uh anxiety that's my kind of undercurrent from since since I was a kid, right?
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.640
So I'm always second guessing and overthinking and checking and things like that.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:25.119
Um and so despite that, eve in in any situation that we're in or any um interaction that we're faced with, even in those individually, we have the opportunity to choose who we want to become in the face of that.
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:25.440
Okay.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.839
And that's how am I gonna show up?
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:29.759
How am I going to communicate here?
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.480
Am I going to jump in and flip my lid and sort this out right now?
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:39.279
Or am I going to pause and go, whoa, this is a A G, what'd you say?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:41.200
A F G O.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.279
Is this an AFGO?
00:20:43.519 --> 00:21:00.319
Like I think the um it's really, really powerful for us, especially as women and as mums, to have uh the space to pause before we respond to a situation or to a person or what they've just said.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:01.440
It's not easy.
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:07.599
Oh my god, it is not easy, but we can cultivate that um skill in a way.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:13.599
In the emotional intelligence space, we talk a lot about responding versus reacting or respond, not react.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:27.680
And uh sometimes I will do a whole like a podcast episode on it or a whole workshop on like how do we go from reacting instinctively, like knee jerk, like it's it's unintentional and the words just come out or the text just get sent.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:45.680
But how do we actually flip that and start to choose a more intentional response that's thoughtful, it's thought out, I've put energy into it and it feels right and I'm in the right time or space that I can send this message or have this conversation.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:59.440
So it it does sound a little bit like airy fairy kind of I I get that, but if we can maybe some practical takeaways, can we start practicing in in whatever situation that we're in, could be with our um our kids, could be with our ex partner, whoever.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:11.039
To start forcing ourselves to pause before we respond, before we send the text, before we before we even open the email, if we think, oh my God, it's from him.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.319
Am I in the right space to like check this now?
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.079
Because I'm in the middle of work and I've got this huge project and I'm just seeing this come through.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:25.680
So I think um if we you spoke a bit before about agency and things like that.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.000
I think we, you know, we've got the ability to choose how do I want to behave here?
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.039
How do I want to show up?
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.319
Who do I want to be?
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:37.039
Maybe I don't want to be who I used to be in this relationship or in another one.
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.960
Now I'm choosing to be this.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.759
And and you know, you can model off people around you or people in the space or you.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.200
Like I want to be more like Carolyn.
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:47.680
She's decisive and she's got a fire up her butt.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:48.400
What would she do?
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.599
What would Carolyn do?
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:50.640
So yeah.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.559
I need to create an AI app of just what would Carolyn do?
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:57.599
It wouldn't always be wise, but it would always be fun.
00:22:58.640 --> 00:22:59.039
Yeah.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:22:59.680
Yeah.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:01.920
Um it's a really good point.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.319
And I something we talk about a lot too is never say anything that you wouldn't want read out in court or to appear on the front page of a newspaper back when we had newspapers.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:15.920
But you know, when you write something down and you've lost control of it, that's not yours anymore.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:22.160
So, and you're going through something tough that could, you know, and things get used against you, even in the most amicable situations.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:24.000
I see it all the time.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:30.799
And I love it when people are in amicable situations, but I see every week I see someone who thought they were amicable and then they weren't.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.279
And then, you know, there's there's things used against them.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:46.799
And so it's something that we always come back to is never send anything that you don't want your grandmother to read, you want to don't want a judge to read in court, you don't want, you know, a reporter to put in a story somewhere because you never know.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.960
Um, you know, or that your ex or your kids might even see, you know.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:51.759
And yeah.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:55.119
One day they'll be older, and who knows?
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:55.519
Yeah.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.000
Yeah.
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:57.119
That that's so right.
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:08.559
And, you know, kids go through my phone and they'll read messages that I've sent to someone else, and um, and I think, no, like I was saying that I don't, you know, I'm not gonna um book you in for this because I can't, I don't have the time.
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.000
And, you know, um, and then it was about the child who read the message.
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:30.079
And so yeah, I I just think it's um it's it's good to be wise, to be able to pause and make good decisions, knowing that your emotional state has a huge impact on your words and your behavior and your decisions.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:39.279
So that's why they say like never make decisions in the heat of the moment, whether that's you're in the depths of despair or whether you're overjoyed because you've won the lottery and you're gonna give it to all your family and friends.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:40.000
Hang on.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:25:02.559
When when your emotions settle, your logical, rational brain comes back online and you do have um uh the ability to access a whole lot more of um situational awareness and and foresight and hindsight and all of these great kind of cognitive skills that would actually help you make a really good decision, not just based on how you're feeling in the moment.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.920
So um to your point, really good.
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:06.480
Yeah.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:11.519
And I think a practical thing that I learned very early on is I have Gmail.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:18.319
And I don't know if other ones do it too, but you can you can funnel your emails into folders and they skip your inbox.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:29.039
So I would make sure every email that came from uh my ex-husband would go into a special folder and once a week I would sit down and gird my loins and go, okay, it's time to have a look.
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:29.440
Yeah.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:44.880
Yeah, I seriously considered at one point hiring someone off like fiver.com to just go through it for me and take dot points of the things I needed to address because it was so full of emotion and so full of, you know, really challenging things that I did consider that.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.240
And then I thought, oh, I might miss something, I better not, you know, there's kids involved.
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.240
So I didn't, but I did, yeah, just make sure that once a week I sat down and did that.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.880
And then another day, and I and I told him I was doing this.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:00.880
So say it was like a Sunday, for instance, I would read them and then I would answer them by the Wednesday.
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:02.400
So I'd have some time.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:07.359
Um, he would know by the Wednesday he'll have an answer, so he wouldn't be harassing me for it mostly.
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.599
Um, and you know, I I had some time, which was really useful.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.359
I I really like that um that careful decision making.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:26.079
And I I wonder what if you were you took time to get to that after realizing that the way you were doing it wasn't working or it was too stressful, um, and then you put in place those boundaries.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:55.599
And I think, yeah, if if we can um really attune to our emotional state and realize that when we are seeing red and we are in the depths of frustration or anger or whatever, that that's not the best time to read an email or to make a decision or to respond, like, gosh, you are it's it's it's worth its weight in gold when you know this is not the time because I'm gonna say something I regret and it might be read out in court or whatever.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:58.880
Um, I think to make really good intentional decisions.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:00.799
Um, sometimes we can't do that on our own.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:12.960
We need someone like you, in the community that you have, or we need a, you know, our our mom or a friend to say, okay, here like I'm gonna, I'm gonna make these rules for you, and then you can put the boundaries in place when you're ready.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:24.400
But I think um making intentional, um, well-thought-out decisions in spite of however you feel, um, almost like a business transactional relationship.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:25.519
So this is what works.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:26.079
I don't know.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.039
Does that make sense?
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:28.640
It does make sense, yeah.
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.400
Because that's something I've read about before too.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:38.000
And this is sort of usually more down the track with treating your ex, if you're co-parenting, treating your ex like a colleague, like we're both working on this project together.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.359
We don't have to be friends, we just have to get this done, you know.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:51.039
Um, because uh a mistake I think a lot of women make that I see is that they still think their ex should care about their feelings.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:54.079
And then they're really upset when they don't.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:04.960
And it's it sounds really harsh, but you know, a lot of the time, depending on who made the call and what's been happening, you know, a lot a lot of the women that are upset about w about that.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:13.759
Um sorry, we're digressing off our topic, but I just but I just think it's really interesting that a lot of women who feel upset about that uh, you know, are the ones who were left.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:21.599
Um, and maybe he's moved on and he's got like a new partner, which is, you know, classic, and um often from the office or from the gym.
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:29.279
And uh and she's like, well, hang on a second, we just spent 25 years together and now I'm here and I'm sad and you don't even care.
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.759
Um, he's off living his best life.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:40.240
Um and it's just a matter of making, I think there's a you have to make peace with that and stay in your lane and go, well, what's what's my big picture now?
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:41.200
Who's looking after me?
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:41.599
It's me.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:42.559
I'm looking after me.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:47.839
And I have these beautiful friends and these beautiful children and all these things, but it's not his job anymore to look after me.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.720
And that can be a really tough pill to swallow, I think.
00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:52.720
Yes, and I I agree with you.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:58.799
I think if we can, this is almost like a bit radical, a bit of a radical idea.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:11.680
If we can take 100% ownership over our own emotions and emotional state and happiness, if you just call it that, being happy, then no one else is responsible for that but you.
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.599
And don't get me wrong, I lean on my friends and family, and if they're unhappy, I'm unhappy.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:20.720
Like it's not again, I'm not saying this is easy and just chop it, like chop it off, sort of thing.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:36.720
But I think keeping that in mind, especially when a relationship is broken down and there isn't that care or empathy anymore, you can either sit in the pain of that, and sometimes we do need to for a period of time because that's real and it's raw.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:44.559
But then also, again, we I come back to every situation that we're faced with is an opportunity for us to decide who do I want to be in the face of this?
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:45.920
How am I gonna show up?
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.000
Am I gonna let this pull me down?
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:49.759
Or am I, I am I gonna move on?
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:57.119
Am I gonna be responsible for myself and my feelings and my kids and and put us first and sort of shift that hierarchy?
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:59.680
And sorry, he is now over there.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:04.880
Um, so it's yeah, it's it's a great way to kind of think about it and just contemplate, I think.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:13.519
Yeah, I I have a friend who's sort of in the middle of of this sort of thing at the moment, and she was for a few months, she was, oh no, what am I gonna do?
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:14.400
Where am I gonna live?
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.200
What's gonna happen?
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:16.319
Worried about everything.
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:26.160
And then we recently had a conversation which was so lovely because she she said she suddenly had this realization that she can do anything, she can move to the beach, she can start this new life.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.079
And she was like, Oh my god, this is incredible.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:35.839
There's so much opportunity, and it's so nice to see that light come on of like it's not, yes, it's and and not diminishing how hard it is, it's really hard.
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:46.000
But with any ending comes new beginnings, and you know, you don't have to compromise with somebody who, you know, might not like your ideas.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:52.880
You can think about what you want to do and and and just make it happen, which is there's not many times in your life that you get that.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.880
It's it's pretty cool once you get to it, but it is a journey to get to that.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:58.640
It's it's almost liberating.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:03.440
Oh, it's incredibly liberating when you get to that point.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.240
Um when you're in it, it doesn't it doesn't feel like that.
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.160
I wonder I wonder what you think about this, Carolyn.
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:20.240
Is it true that a person may have moments of that sort of like windows or sparks, but then they'll fall back into the grief or the the sadness and the anger and things like that.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.200
I I wonder if that's um if that has resonated with people who are listening.
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:25.920
Do you know what I mean?
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:26.079
Yeah.
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:29.759
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:39.440
And I know for me, when before I left, because I I called time on my marriage and I had this idea even before, you know, it died a slow death, it withered on the vine over, you know, some years.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:42.880
And and so by the time it finished, it was like this massive relief.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:53.759
And I was I had all these ideas of all the things I was going to do, but then I had this inexplicable grief after we separated of all of the things that I'd lost, even though I'd sort of grieved it for a long time.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:55.519
But then it just, yeah, it came back again.
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.480
This whole, oh my gosh, what happened to my life, right?
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.799
This is not what I had planned, you know.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:05.680
And um, and yeah, I I think the women I work with too see that they they have moments of that.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.400
That's the end of part one of my chat with Stephanie Pinto.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:22.880
The line I keep coming back to is hers about choosing who you want to be in the face of a situation.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:31.519
Not who you were in the marriage and not who you'll be in five years or who you are with your sister, who you are in the 10 seconds before you hit send.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.200
That's a small window.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.480
It's also close to the only part of this that you can control.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:41.279
And the other half of it is the relief and the grief that turn up together.
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:46.240
You can be certain you did the right thing and still be flattened by all that you've lost.
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:48.319
I totally understand what that feels like.
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:51.119
Those two sit side by side for a lot of us.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:57.759
Stephanie's book is from Chaos to Connection, and she runs a Facebook group called Let's Raise Emotionally Intelligent Kids.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.200
Both are in the show notes.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.720
Next episode, Steph and I turn to the kids.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:11.680
What to do when your children are running their own version of this, how to build a household culture that's actually yours, and how to handle the house that you have no control over.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:13.759
Thanks for listening today.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:29.920
If doing this alone feels heavy, Women's Divorce Academy offers clear guidance, practical tools, and a supportive community for the legal, financial, and emotional realities of divorce.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:36.000
Whether you're considering separation in the middle of it or rebuilding afterwards, there's something here for you.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.799
Find us at Women's DivorceAcademy.com.
