Debra Doak: All right, welcome or welcome back. If you're a returning listener to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. Today is a follow-up to last month, and today's episode is another opportunity to hear directly from someone who can share the true impact of working with a DCA certified divorce coach. You know, on this podcast, we typically discuss topics for
Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention.
Debra Doak: That kind of support divorce coaches and other divorce professionals in their professional practice. But I really believe it's also helpful for y'all to hear from actual clients who can articulate the real and practical ways that divorce coaching helps people navigate this difficult time. So today I am joined by my former client, Diane Harris. She's the author of Love Bomb. You can see the book here in her screen. ⁓ It's called Love Bomb. He sold her a dream and delivered a nightmare. And I'm sure that we will get into that and talk about it more. So Diane, welcome to the podcast and thanks for taking the time today to come and talk about your experience.
Dianne: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Deborah. I'm so happy to be here.
Debra Doak: Yeah. So ⁓ just as way of introduction, let me give folks a little bio about you and tell them that you are a relationship coach, a speaker, and an author. So we'll talk about your book again, Love Bomb. He sold her a dream and delivered a nightmare. And what you told me is that after rebuilding your life following an emotionally abusive relationship and divorce, you now help purpose driven women heal. Reclaim their identity and create healthy, emotionally safe relationships. Through her coaching, yeah, through Diane's coaching, writing, and content, which is amazing. I get your newsletter, by the way. ⁓ you're empowering women to choose themselves, find their voice, and become the version of themselves, I love this, who no longer settles for less than they deserve.
Dianne: Absolutely. Thank you.
Debra Doak: Is there anything you'd like to add to that?
Dianne: I am uniquely qualified to help the person that I once was because that was me and ⁓ one point, probably about five years ago. And so that's ⁓ that's I learned I learned the the hard way and now I help women ⁓ choose themselves.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So kind of like me, we turn our mess into a mission. Yeah. Good, good. All right. Well, I guess just let me let's start off kind of at the beginning. and say when you think back to like the really early stages of your separation and divorce, what stands out to you about kind of what that time felt like for you?
Dianne: The first word that comes to my mind was absolute just confusion. Absolute confusion. ⁓ in the in the marriage, it was just can I swear on this podcast? Mindfuckery. That's what it was, because one day it was like the person was trying to get me back and they were being like on their best behavior, and then the next day we were at war and and I was the enemy.
Debra Doak: Mm. Go ahead. Yes.
Dianne: So it was just whiplash. It was whiplash and I I had to ⁓ you know, protect myself. And that's when I reached out to you because I I had heard you on a podcast. That's what it was. I had heard you on a podcast. I'm like, I think I need some help. I really think I need some help because ⁓ I knew I couldn't do it on my own.
Debra Doak: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So remind me, we're you were already in the process of divorce, you already had an attorney by the time we started working together.
Dianne: I think what we were doing is we were trying to mediate. And at that point, ⁓ I really wasn't convinced that that was going to work. ⁓ I think I was hoping that it was going to work. ⁓ it was my second divorce. My first divorce, we did mediate and it was smooth, but with a an antagonistic, ⁓ dysregulated personality style, I just didn't think it was gonna work. So ⁓ I knew that I needed somebody to
Debra Doak: Yeah. ⁓ that's right. Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Dianne: to ⁓ kind of guide me and help me along the way with it I knew it was to be coming high conflict. That's why, you know, I actually I think I what happened was I I got your book first and I read it like very quickly. And I'm like, I found out you were a coach and I'm like, was in my own certification process during this time and I was like, I need help. I need help. And I loved your I loved your your you know your style.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. That's fine. Yeah. You need help. My style. Well, and you know, that's what as coaches we we're not for everybody, but the people that are for us resonate with our vibe and our communication style and everything. And so that resonated for you. When you decided to reach out, what did you understand about divorce coaching at that point? If anything, like what did you know about it? Have you heard of it?
Dianne: Nothing. I'd ⁓ I'd absolutely heard of divorce coaching and I like I said I was in my own coaching certification process, but I didn't know anything about divorce coaching because I I didn't have a divorce coach with my first divorce. ⁓ I didn't I had never even had a life coach at that point. and I was in certification process to become a life coach or or coach in general. And so I had had, you know, I had been coaching, I've been being coached and ⁓ training.
Debra Doak: Right. Mm-hmm.
Dianne: But I didn't I didn't really know much about a divorce coach. No. No.
Debra Doak: Okay. Yeah, I mean most people don't. And that that's part of what we're trying to do is raise awareness.
Dianne: No.
Debra Doak: So just kind of walk me through. So you reached out, we did a consult call, you said, this feels like my person. This person gets what I'm talking about. How would you describe kind of the beginning of our work together? What did that feel like to you?
Dianne: Mm. I remember one of the first things you said was we were b I was reading this one book and it was on covert sub aggressive narcissist. And yes. Yeah. And I remember like you had it like right next to you, and you're like, ⁓ is this the book? And you said, Well, once you read this, you'll have a PhD in ⁓ narcissism. And and it was like I we just connected right away because
Debra Doak: Yeah, the covert passive aggressive narcissist. Yep.
Dianne: Because you knew what I was speaking, because in these relationships they're so confusing and it's very hard to explain to somebody like what what you're actually going through because of the the basis of these relationships is so confusing. It's really hard to explain it to somebody. So you understood me. and that felt really validating to me.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dianne: And you and I respected the fact that you you had had your own situation, you had been doing what you were doing for a long time. You were, you know, ⁓ you had the financial background where, you know, there was definitely ⁓ sets involved. I mean, there was so many, there was so many boxes that you checked off. And I just felt I felt heard, I felt safe, I felt I felt everything that I didn't feel in that marriage with you. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm.
Dianne: I just felt protected and I felt like you were my f you were my person. I mean, it was just yeah. I I had somebody in my corner and it just felt really good. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Good, good. Well, and if I if if I know myself well enough, we probably talked about that book. Talked about the fact that you had done enough learning, that you had a PhD in narcissism, and that we no longer needed to learn anymore about him, because it was now about you and what you wanted to do and what you were trying to create for your future, right?
Dianne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, 'cause yeah, I did go down that rabbit hole of l you know, all the reading all the books and listening to all podcasts and like cra crazy. Like cra 'cause of course I was still trying to fix him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Right, exactly. Right. Or understand him as opposed to just no, I'm just gonna stand in my own sturdiness and negotiate from here.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah. So so that's kind of where we started. You felt like just an instant recognition that I understood what you were going through.
Dianne: Mm.
Debra Doak: You like the fact that I had some financial background, right? And most divorce coaches should be able to handle most finances, but yours was especially complex, right? Once we got into trying to mediate that.
Dianne: It was, I mean, it was it was a sh it it was a short-term marriage. It was only three years and there wasn't any there wasn't any prenuptial agreement. it was never even brought up. And there was he had a lot of assets and it was never brought up. I mean, I would have entertained that because we were middle aged getting married, but it was never brought up, not once. So ⁓ you
Debra Doak: I mean yeah. Not once.
Dianne: I'm sure you've heard of this before when you you don't know who you're actually marrying until you divorce them. ⁓ so yeah. ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: So true. Yeah. So you start into mediating with this man who has ⁓ significant assets, not only in dollar amount, but in number. It was complex in terms of the number of assets that we had to catalog and talk about and and all those things. And then you're also dealing with a person who feels entitled that it's all theirs and was not really participating in the process. So
Dianne: Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: How would you say our work together kind of helped you step through how you negotiated while you were in mediation?
Dianne: Say you were definitely like the voice of reason for me because I think I would start it to gaslight my own myself because I, you know, you between you and my attorneys, you know, I was entitled to certain things that even I was like saying, you know, I why am I entitled to these things? Well, because being married is a contract, right? So you know, if we bought these things together, even if it was, you know, I didn't put
Debra Doak: Right. Right.
Dianne: money into it, it's marital money, you know. So the education there was there. And I, you know, I need to have a future as well, you know. So ⁓ thank God we did not have children together. But you were the voice of reason and and one thing that you introduced me to as well was just the concept of flooding. I remember that because like
Debra Doak: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Dianne: I didn't have terminology for that, but when you explained that to me, I was like, Yes, that's it. Like 'cause he would he could easily flood me. Like my emotions would get flooded. And I just didn't have the terminology. But when you taught me that, I was like, Yes, that's what that is. And you know, how to how to to deal with that when that would happen and how to like disengage and like step away and be calmer and more grounded and take a break and you know, those those things all help. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah, have some strategies, have some tools, be able to improve your distress tolerance, right? And then the other thing I recall, and let's talk about this, is like when you work with attorneys, they're very focused on what you're entitled to, right? And this whole legal process you can go through to get every penny you're entitled to. And I think you and I early on started having more of a discussion around what do you need?
Dianne: Yeah.
Debra Doak: versus what you're entitled to. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think that's important work.
Dianne: Yes. Yes. That was one of the first questions you asked me is is what well you what do you want and what do you need? And and and I remember saying like I want a a home for me and my children because I that's what women like w that's what we're designed for, right? We want to we want to care and put provide for our children, right? And you know, then we went right into like, well, what what does that look like? W how much is that gonna cost? Like reasonably, like we're we don't need a a million dollar home.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm.
Dianne: We, you know, how what how much is that gonna cost? Are we gonna buy? Are we gonna rent? You know, do how many bedrooms do we need? And so that was really calming and you know, we got to work on that. You know, and it was tough because it was COVID. It was COVID when we worked together. So that was really difficult. Very, very, very difficult.
Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah. Kind of Yes. It was hard, right? But you you went out and you did the work of like how much would a home the size that I want in the school district that I want, how much would that cost? And then you said, I would like to have a little bit of secure retirement. Okay, let's run some numbers. What does that number look like? And you said, and then I would like to have some income. Okay. How much would you need to have in the bank to generate that income? Assuming we don't want to rely on an a promise breaker.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: To make alimony payments, what would that look like? And we were able to actually come up with a number, right? When we added the house, the retirement, what you would need in an investment account to generate that income, which I think gave you a really strong position in your negotiation. Instead of doing all the discovery and getting all the documents and paying forensic accountants and doing all that work, you were able to come to the table with a number and say, this is my walk-away number. If I get this, I'm good.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Right. And
Dianne: It went it yeah. It did go sideways a few times, but that's to be expected. Yeah. But you know. And you'll find you'll when you you'll see you'll read about it in the book.
Debra Doak: ⁓ huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do have the book. I've started reading it. I was totally transparent with Diane. I have not finished it yet, but I really look forward to ⁓ and we'll t we'll talk about the book, but y'all really she she went through it. I'm just telling you that. She went through it. ⁓ but if I recall, that was kind of a a difference that allowed you to get to the finish line probably a lot more quickly than you would have if you had done the traditional legal process of
Dianne: Yeah. That's okay. You'll Yeah.
Debra Doak: doing discovery on every one of those hundreds of assets and having forensic people look at everything and ⁓
Dianne: Yeah. That's I'm so glad I didn't do that because it's just it's the time and it's the money and then you know, the the lawyer, you know, it's true. What they say is the attorneys are the ones that do win. And ⁓ it's already so emotional. And I was already so emotionally abused for eight years and then two years of the divorce. So it's a it was a full decade. It was a full decade of being abused, so and not really knowing it. So
Debra Doak: It was a full. Yeah, yeah. And I think no, but I think the other the other shift we were able to work on for you and chime in and correct me if I'm not recalling this. But this idea that ⁓ why am I losing my train of thought? ⁓ trying to identify, we talk a lot in our training with our new coaches about cognitive empathy. I don't have to care about the other person, but can I get in their mind and figure out what's important? And one of the things you identified when we started talking about what's important to what do you think is most important to him? And it was you said he doesn't want anybody looking up his skirt. He doesn't want anybody looking at his books. He doesn't want anybody looking at the numbers behind the scenes of what's going on. Right. And so that's when you use that to your advantage to say, okay, if you don't want to go through all of this, here's my number.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Right. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Right. So we talk a lot about interest-based negotiation. And this is understanding what's important to the other person, whether it's time with the kids or monthly income. And in your case, you very clearly identified that he was so resistant to providing the documentation and mediation that you really needed to make a good decision. and you identified that that probably was most important to him is he did not want somebody in his ⁓ in his QuickBooks looking at things.
Dianne: W no, no. I think yeah. I think that's I think that's a a lot of men don't, but that's fine. I mean I I g I I g I guess I can understand that now looking back. I I I guess I wouldn't either, you know, but
Debra Doak: Yeah. Right. And we're not saying he was doing anything wrong. It's just entitled people typically feel a really big sense of ownership and privacy over that. And so I think that was a that was a turning point for you too, is when you when you identified that, then we were able to strategize what might be effective in getting this agreement to the finish line in a way that felt not like you won, but satisfying to you. Like it was enough.
Dianne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.
Debra Doak: How would you say that the working with me or having the support of a divorce coach impacted things like the amount of conflict you had, how long your process took, how much it costs, how dysregulated you were?
Dianne: It helped me tremendously. ⁓ I mean the the divorce took did take two years because of COVID. So it was a two year divorce for a three year marriage. And I think because it w it was such it it was so high conflict. Yeah. It was so high conflict because I was with a high conflict personality style. And it was su it was so back and forth with the like, you know, he would every
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Here it is. Yes.
Dianne: He would still try to get me back, like even after he filed. Like he was the one that filed and with a with a ⁓ expired ⁓ forget what they're called, but an expired ⁓ whatever they're called when you when they serve you. Yeah. So ⁓ yeah, it was just it was just a just a whirlwind of whiplashing confusion. So ⁓ I think that if I didn't have the support, I think I I could have crumbled. I think I really could have gone into fetal position and just completely crumbled. And I did cave a lot.
Debra Doak: Okay, gotcha.
Dianne: I caved a lot. Even when even when I had you, I caved.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Well
Dianne: Because it's it was so easy to get sucked back in. ⁓ and but I finally did choose myself. I finally did.
Debra Doak: Yeah. I don't Yeah. And if I can just reframe it, I think we're working together. I wouldn't say you caved. What I would say is there are times that you chose to pay the price of freedom. It wasn't it's it was often a a an intentional decision on your part to compromise on some things or take a number lower or give up
Dianne: Yeah, thank you. That's a nice reframe. It wasn't even that. It was more what I just to refr ⁓ it was more like he would like I caved in on like choosing myself and I gave him another chance. 'Cause there was there was like, ⁓ well maybe this person can help fix him. You know? I remember you talking with me about the center of peace. I'm like, ⁓ well, maybe maybe she can help him, you know? Like, ⁓ let's send let's set send him to her her
Debra Doak: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm. Right.
Dianne: program, you know.
Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah. It's it's hard to put down the hopium pipe, as the chump lady would say, right? I that's not my that's not my phrase the chump lady. But she calls it the hopium pipe. And I I think it is not uncommon at all to keep hitting the pipe a few times, right? Yeah, yeah, it burned it burned out, and then we got down to business and
Dianne: Opium pipe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I smoked that damn pipe until it was dead. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Eventually you you got through it.
Dianne: Yeah.
Debra Doak: W what would you say surprised you the most about the experience of divorce and or the experience of working with a coach for your divorce?
Dianne: surprised me the most about the divorce. ⁓ With this particular person, I think at the end, I what surprised me the most was that I didn't I guess I should say this surprised me about me was that I actually didn't think that he was a liar until the end. So I I really learned a lot about myself because I believed every word this man said until the end. And then I was like, wow. Like so I learned a lot about myself because I
Debra Doak: Mm. Yeah.
Dianne: He was not the person that I thought he was. So I've so this is why hence the reason why I've been single.
Debra Doak: Right. And you re you resisted that for quite a while. Yeah.
Dianne: ⁓ I did. And so this hence the reason why I've been single for five years and I've really just put the work in on myself. And ⁓ I mean, I'm not gonna change myself. I'm still a a lover and an an empath and but I've just learned now not to tr take people at face value anymore. Like, you know, people need to earn my trust. ⁓ I still believe in love.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they don't get into the they don't get into the inner circle right away. There's a there's a time period. Yeah.
Dianne: No, and I still believe in I still believe in love. I still believe in it. I just I just he is a very unfortunately broken, you know, person that just lies his way through life, unfortunately. ⁓ but I would I would recommend a divorce coach like yourself and I'm sure your students to anybody. I've I've re yeah, had a an incredible experience with with you and ⁓
Debra Doak: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. ⁓
Dianne: I think I would have been really chewed up and spit out if I didn't have you. More so than I was. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Yeah, you didn't get through it unscathed. ⁓ but I mean, divorcing someone with a little bit of a character disorder or that creates as much chaos as yours did. ⁓ it's traumatic. We get beat up doing it. ⁓ but hopefully we minimize some of the damage or at least mitigated some of it. ⁓ and I
Dianne: I didn't. No. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: I appreciate you being so transparent and honest about what the experience was like for you. And you know, I don't have a magic wand. I can't fix everything as a coach, but it sounds like you still felt supported and felt like there was value and that ⁓ you got through it a l a little better because I was around.
Dianne: Yeah. Hundred percent. Absolutely.
Debra Doak: Good. ⁓ you know, and ⁓ what stands out to me most about your story is yes, it was legally complicated. Yes, it was a little financially complicated. But it's how you really did wake up. You really did choose yourself. You really are were focused on getting free so that you could build the life you deserve. And that's what now you're helping your clients do, right? Yeah.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there's there's a lot of men out men and women out there like that. There is
Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah. That that kind of need that. So if we have people listening today, they're in the middle of kind of that right now and feeling really overwhelmed and feeling defeated, what would you want them to hear?
Dianne: I would say that they should reach out for support because I mean even this is the time to do it. I mean, this is one of the biggest decisions of your life is to get a divorce. And this is the time to to get support because it can really save a lot of time and effort and and money. You can save a lot of money to hire a divorce coach. Even though
Debra Doak: Mm. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. We tell people that.
Dianne: Even though it costs yeah, even though it costs money, it can save you a lot of money. Yeah. Well, and it it's it's way less than an attorney. That's for sure.
Debra Doak: Mm. It seems counterintuitive, right? But I do think it's true. Yes, especially, yeah, a lot less. ⁓ thanks for for sharing that. So if you're listening and some of this is resonating, if you're curious about what working with a divorce coach might look like, I want to encourage you to go to the website, divorce coachesacademy dot com. We have a coach locator there of all the coaches we've trained in a foundation of alternative dispute resolution, which is actually trying to stay out of court, trying to get
Dianne: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Make those good decisions so that you actually can navigate it with a little less overwhelm and a little more ⁓ clarity. Diane, I don't I don't want to hop off here without the opportunity for you to talk a little bit about your book and then tell people where they can connect with you, where can they order the book and what kind of coaching support do you offer?
Dianne: book is on Amazon. It's Love Bomb. And it's ⁓ the subtitle I think is phenomenal. It's ⁓ He Sold Her Dream and Delivered a Nightmare. And it's ⁓ yes, and ⁓ you can find me at Diane Harris.com, which was two N's, two Rs. And ⁓ yes, and you'll can read my story is ⁓ it's pretty raw, it's pretty real and it's very authentic and it's it's something in it's it's
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we'll have the link in the show notes.
Dianne: I've gotten really incredible feedback so far. So I think I think even you, Deb, when you read the rest of it, you're gonna 'cause there's a lot in there that you don't know. So I c I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Yeah, good. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Trust me guys. She went through it. She went through it. This man tried to pull everything out of the hat that he could to discredit you and make you crumble, and yet you didn't. So kudos to you for that.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Mm. No. No. And if I can get through it, I mean anybody can. Absolutely.
Debra Doak: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So I I again I want to thank you. I think it's so meaningful to have folks listening here from a client's perspective, what difference it really made in your in your divorce, in your process, in your ability to now recover now that you've been through it, right? Because that's really what it's all about is we've got to get through it to get back get on the other side. Right. And that's what stands out to me is you divorced someone that was so difficult. made life so hard for you. ⁓ and yet you remained committed, you believed life was going to be better on the other side and you were going to stick through it. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Any any last words you want to share with folks before we kind of call it a day?
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yes. That way. Yes. When I get asked this question, it is always listen to your intuition. Because if I had, I would never have gotten into that relationship in the first place. Listen to your intuition. Listen to your gut. It's always right. Yes. Yes.
Debra Doak: Ditto. Ditto ditto. Yeah, that is a that is very important. And we discount ourselves. We don't listen to our second brain and our gut and what it's telling us. So okay. Well, thank you all for joining us. Diane, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to come on here and chat.
Dianne: Thank you, Deborah. This has been wonderful. I appreciate it so much.
Debra Doak: Awesome. All right, guys. We'll be back next week with another topic about divorce and divorce coaching and how it helps folks navigate with more clarity and less overwhelm. We'll talk to you then.
Dianne: Bye-bye.
Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention.
Debra Doak: That kind of support divorce coaches and other divorce professionals in their professional practice. But I really believe it's also helpful for y'all to hear from actual clients who can articulate the real and practical ways that divorce coaching helps people navigate this difficult time. So today I am joined by my former client, Diane Harris. She's the author of Love Bomb. You can see the book here in her screen. ⁓ It's called Love Bomb. He sold her a dream and delivered a nightmare. And I'm sure that we will get into that and talk about it more. So Diane, welcome to the podcast and thanks for taking the time today to come and talk about your experience.
Dianne: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Deborah. I'm so happy to be here.
Debra Doak: Yeah. So ⁓ just as way of introduction, let me give folks a little bio about you and tell them that you are a relationship coach, a speaker, and an author. So we'll talk about your book again, Love Bomb. He sold her a dream and delivered a nightmare. And what you told me is that after rebuilding your life following an emotionally abusive relationship and divorce, you now help purpose driven women heal. Reclaim their identity and create healthy, emotionally safe relationships. Through her coaching, yeah, through Diane's coaching, writing, and content, which is amazing. I get your newsletter, by the way. ⁓ you're empowering women to choose themselves, find their voice, and become the version of themselves, I love this, who no longer settles for less than they deserve.
Dianne: Absolutely. Thank you.
Debra Doak: Is there anything you'd like to add to that?
Dianne: I am uniquely qualified to help the person that I once was because that was me and ⁓ one point, probably about five years ago. And so that's ⁓ that's I learned I learned the the hard way and now I help women ⁓ choose themselves.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So kind of like me, we turn our mess into a mission. Yeah. Good, good. All right. Well, I guess just let me let's start off kind of at the beginning. and say when you think back to like the really early stages of your separation and divorce, what stands out to you about kind of what that time felt like for you?
Dianne: The first word that comes to my mind was absolute just confusion. Absolute confusion. ⁓ in the in the marriage, it was just can I swear on this podcast? Mindfuckery. That's what it was, because one day it was like the person was trying to get me back and they were being like on their best behavior, and then the next day we were at war and and I was the enemy.
Debra Doak: Mm. Go ahead. Yes.
Dianne: So it was just whiplash. It was whiplash and I I had to ⁓ you know, protect myself. And that's when I reached out to you because I I had heard you on a podcast. That's what it was. I had heard you on a podcast. I'm like, I think I need some help. I really think I need some help because ⁓ I knew I couldn't do it on my own.
Debra Doak: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So remind me, we're you were already in the process of divorce, you already had an attorney by the time we started working together.
Dianne: I think what we were doing is we were trying to mediate. And at that point, ⁓ I really wasn't convinced that that was going to work. ⁓ I think I was hoping that it was going to work. ⁓ it was my second divorce. My first divorce, we did mediate and it was smooth, but with a an antagonistic, ⁓ dysregulated personality style, I just didn't think it was gonna work. So ⁓ I knew that I needed somebody to
Debra Doak: Yeah. ⁓ that's right. Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Dianne: to ⁓ kind of guide me and help me along the way with it I knew it was to be coming high conflict. That's why, you know, I actually I think I what happened was I I got your book first and I read it like very quickly. And I'm like, I found out you were a coach and I'm like, was in my own certification process during this time and I was like, I need help. I need help. And I loved your I loved your your you know your style.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. That's fine. Yeah. You need help. My style. Well, and you know, that's what as coaches we we're not for everybody, but the people that are for us resonate with our vibe and our communication style and everything. And so that resonated for you. When you decided to reach out, what did you understand about divorce coaching at that point? If anything, like what did you know about it? Have you heard of it?
Dianne: Nothing. I'd ⁓ I'd absolutely heard of divorce coaching and I like I said I was in my own coaching certification process, but I didn't know anything about divorce coaching because I I didn't have a divorce coach with my first divorce. ⁓ I didn't I had never even had a life coach at that point. and I was in certification process to become a life coach or or coach in general. And so I had had, you know, I had been coaching, I've been being coached and ⁓ training.
Debra Doak: Right. Mm-hmm.
Dianne: But I didn't I didn't really know much about a divorce coach. No. No.
Debra Doak: Okay. Yeah, I mean most people don't. And that that's part of what we're trying to do is raise awareness.
Dianne: No.
Debra Doak: So just kind of walk me through. So you reached out, we did a consult call, you said, this feels like my person. This person gets what I'm talking about. How would you describe kind of the beginning of our work together? What did that feel like to you?
Dianne: Mm. I remember one of the first things you said was we were b I was reading this one book and it was on covert sub aggressive narcissist. And yes. Yeah. And I remember like you had it like right next to you, and you're like, ⁓ is this the book? And you said, Well, once you read this, you'll have a PhD in ⁓ narcissism. And and it was like I we just connected right away because
Debra Doak: Yeah, the covert passive aggressive narcissist. Yep.
Dianne: Because you knew what I was speaking, because in these relationships they're so confusing and it's very hard to explain to somebody like what what you're actually going through because of the the basis of these relationships is so confusing. It's really hard to explain it to somebody. So you understood me. and that felt really validating to me.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dianne: And you and I respected the fact that you you had had your own situation, you had been doing what you were doing for a long time. You were, you know, ⁓ you had the financial background where, you know, there was definitely ⁓ sets involved. I mean, there was so many, there was so many boxes that you checked off. And I just felt I felt heard, I felt safe, I felt I felt everything that I didn't feel in that marriage with you. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm.
Dianne: I just felt protected and I felt like you were my f you were my person. I mean, it was just yeah. I I had somebody in my corner and it just felt really good. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Good, good. Well, and if I if if I know myself well enough, we probably talked about that book. Talked about the fact that you had done enough learning, that you had a PhD in narcissism, and that we no longer needed to learn anymore about him, because it was now about you and what you wanted to do and what you were trying to create for your future, right?
Dianne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, 'cause yeah, I did go down that rabbit hole of l you know, all the reading all the books and listening to all podcasts and like cra crazy. Like cra 'cause of course I was still trying to fix him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Right, exactly. Right. Or understand him as opposed to just no, I'm just gonna stand in my own sturdiness and negotiate from here.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah. So so that's kind of where we started. You felt like just an instant recognition that I understood what you were going through.
Dianne: Mm.
Debra Doak: You like the fact that I had some financial background, right? And most divorce coaches should be able to handle most finances, but yours was especially complex, right? Once we got into trying to mediate that.
Dianne: It was, I mean, it was it was a sh it it was a short-term marriage. It was only three years and there wasn't any there wasn't any prenuptial agreement. it was never even brought up. And there was he had a lot of assets and it was never brought up. I mean, I would have entertained that because we were middle aged getting married, but it was never brought up, not once. So ⁓ you
Debra Doak: I mean yeah. Not once.
Dianne: I'm sure you've heard of this before when you you don't know who you're actually marrying until you divorce them. ⁓ so yeah. ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: So true. Yeah. So you start into mediating with this man who has ⁓ significant assets, not only in dollar amount, but in number. It was complex in terms of the number of assets that we had to catalog and talk about and and all those things. And then you're also dealing with a person who feels entitled that it's all theirs and was not really participating in the process. So
Dianne: Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: How would you say our work together kind of helped you step through how you negotiated while you were in mediation?
Dianne: Say you were definitely like the voice of reason for me because I think I would start it to gaslight my own myself because I, you know, you between you and my attorneys, you know, I was entitled to certain things that even I was like saying, you know, I why am I entitled to these things? Well, because being married is a contract, right? So you know, if we bought these things together, even if it was, you know, I didn't put
Debra Doak: Right. Right.
Dianne: money into it, it's marital money, you know. So the education there was there. And I, you know, I need to have a future as well, you know. So ⁓ thank God we did not have children together. But you were the voice of reason and and one thing that you introduced me to as well was just the concept of flooding. I remember that because like
Debra Doak: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Dianne: I didn't have terminology for that, but when you explained that to me, I was like, Yes, that's it. Like 'cause he would he could easily flood me. Like my emotions would get flooded. And I just didn't have the terminology. But when you taught me that, I was like, Yes, that's what that is. And you know, how to how to to deal with that when that would happen and how to like disengage and like step away and be calmer and more grounded and take a break and you know, those those things all help. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah, have some strategies, have some tools, be able to improve your distress tolerance, right? And then the other thing I recall, and let's talk about this, is like when you work with attorneys, they're very focused on what you're entitled to, right? And this whole legal process you can go through to get every penny you're entitled to. And I think you and I early on started having more of a discussion around what do you need?
Dianne: Yeah.
Debra Doak: versus what you're entitled to. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think that's important work.
Dianne: Yes. Yes. That was one of the first questions you asked me is is what well you what do you want and what do you need? And and and I remember saying like I want a a home for me and my children because I that's what women like w that's what we're designed for, right? We want to we want to care and put provide for our children, right? And you know, then we went right into like, well, what what does that look like? W how much is that gonna cost? Like reasonably, like we're we don't need a a million dollar home.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm.
Dianne: We, you know, how what how much is that gonna cost? Are we gonna buy? Are we gonna rent? You know, do how many bedrooms do we need? And so that was really calming and you know, we got to work on that. You know, and it was tough because it was COVID. It was COVID when we worked together. So that was really difficult. Very, very, very difficult.
Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah. Kind of Yes. It was hard, right? But you you went out and you did the work of like how much would a home the size that I want in the school district that I want, how much would that cost? And then you said, I would like to have a little bit of secure retirement. Okay, let's run some numbers. What does that number look like? And you said, and then I would like to have some income. Okay. How much would you need to have in the bank to generate that income? Assuming we don't want to rely on an a promise breaker.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: To make alimony payments, what would that look like? And we were able to actually come up with a number, right? When we added the house, the retirement, what you would need in an investment account to generate that income, which I think gave you a really strong position in your negotiation. Instead of doing all the discovery and getting all the documents and paying forensic accountants and doing all that work, you were able to come to the table with a number and say, this is my walk-away number. If I get this, I'm good.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Right. And
Dianne: It went it yeah. It did go sideways a few times, but that's to be expected. Yeah. But you know. And you'll find you'll when you you'll see you'll read about it in the book.
Debra Doak: ⁓ huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do have the book. I've started reading it. I was totally transparent with Diane. I have not finished it yet, but I really look forward to ⁓ and we'll t we'll talk about the book, but y'all really she she went through it. I'm just telling you that. She went through it. ⁓ but if I recall, that was kind of a a difference that allowed you to get to the finish line probably a lot more quickly than you would have if you had done the traditional legal process of
Dianne: Yeah. That's okay. You'll Yeah.
Debra Doak: doing discovery on every one of those hundreds of assets and having forensic people look at everything and ⁓
Dianne: Yeah. That's I'm so glad I didn't do that because it's just it's the time and it's the money and then you know, the the lawyer, you know, it's true. What they say is the attorneys are the ones that do win. And ⁓ it's already so emotional. And I was already so emotionally abused for eight years and then two years of the divorce. So it's a it was a full decade. It was a full decade of being abused, so and not really knowing it. So
Debra Doak: It was a full. Yeah, yeah. And I think no, but I think the other the other shift we were able to work on for you and chime in and correct me if I'm not recalling this. But this idea that ⁓ why am I losing my train of thought? ⁓ trying to identify, we talk a lot in our training with our new coaches about cognitive empathy. I don't have to care about the other person, but can I get in their mind and figure out what's important? And one of the things you identified when we started talking about what's important to what do you think is most important to him? And it was you said he doesn't want anybody looking up his skirt. He doesn't want anybody looking at his books. He doesn't want anybody looking at the numbers behind the scenes of what's going on. Right. And so that's when you use that to your advantage to say, okay, if you don't want to go through all of this, here's my number.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Right. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Right. So we talk a lot about interest-based negotiation. And this is understanding what's important to the other person, whether it's time with the kids or monthly income. And in your case, you very clearly identified that he was so resistant to providing the documentation and mediation that you really needed to make a good decision. and you identified that that probably was most important to him is he did not want somebody in his ⁓ in his QuickBooks looking at things.
Dianne: W no, no. I think yeah. I think that's I think that's a a lot of men don't, but that's fine. I mean I I g I I g I guess I can understand that now looking back. I I I guess I wouldn't either, you know, but
Debra Doak: Yeah. Right. And we're not saying he was doing anything wrong. It's just entitled people typically feel a really big sense of ownership and privacy over that. And so I think that was a that was a turning point for you too, is when you when you identified that, then we were able to strategize what might be effective in getting this agreement to the finish line in a way that felt not like you won, but satisfying to you. Like it was enough.
Dianne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.
Debra Doak: How would you say that the working with me or having the support of a divorce coach impacted things like the amount of conflict you had, how long your process took, how much it costs, how dysregulated you were?
Dianne: It helped me tremendously. ⁓ I mean the the divorce took did take two years because of COVID. So it was a two year divorce for a three year marriage. And I think because it w it was such it it was so high conflict. Yeah. It was so high conflict because I was with a high conflict personality style. And it was su it was so back and forth with the like, you know, he would every
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Here it is. Yes.
Dianne: He would still try to get me back, like even after he filed. Like he was the one that filed and with a with a ⁓ expired ⁓ forget what they're called, but an expired ⁓ whatever they're called when you when they serve you. Yeah. So ⁓ yeah, it was just it was just a just a whirlwind of whiplashing confusion. So ⁓ I think that if I didn't have the support, I think I I could have crumbled. I think I really could have gone into fetal position and just completely crumbled. And I did cave a lot.
Debra Doak: Okay, gotcha.
Dianne: I caved a lot. Even when even when I had you, I caved.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Well
Dianne: Because it's it was so easy to get sucked back in. ⁓ and but I finally did choose myself. I finally did.
Debra Doak: Yeah. I don't Yeah. And if I can just reframe it, I think we're working together. I wouldn't say you caved. What I would say is there are times that you chose to pay the price of freedom. It wasn't it's it was often a a an intentional decision on your part to compromise on some things or take a number lower or give up
Dianne: Yeah, thank you. That's a nice reframe. It wasn't even that. It was more what I just to refr ⁓ it was more like he would like I caved in on like choosing myself and I gave him another chance. 'Cause there was there was like, ⁓ well maybe this person can help fix him. You know? I remember you talking with me about the center of peace. I'm like, ⁓ well, maybe maybe she can help him, you know? Like, ⁓ let's send let's set send him to her her
Debra Doak: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm. Right.
Dianne: program, you know.
Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah. It's it's hard to put down the hopium pipe, as the chump lady would say, right? I that's not my that's not my phrase the chump lady. But she calls it the hopium pipe. And I I think it is not uncommon at all to keep hitting the pipe a few times, right? Yeah, yeah, it burned it burned out, and then we got down to business and
Dianne: Opium pipe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I smoked that damn pipe until it was dead. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Eventually you you got through it.
Dianne: Yeah.
Debra Doak: W what would you say surprised you the most about the experience of divorce and or the experience of working with a coach for your divorce?
Dianne: surprised me the most about the divorce. ⁓ With this particular person, I think at the end, I what surprised me the most was that I didn't I guess I should say this surprised me about me was that I actually didn't think that he was a liar until the end. So I I really learned a lot about myself because I believed every word this man said until the end. And then I was like, wow. Like so I learned a lot about myself because I
Debra Doak: Mm. Yeah.
Dianne: He was not the person that I thought he was. So I've so this is why hence the reason why I've been single.
Debra Doak: Right. And you re you resisted that for quite a while. Yeah.
Dianne: ⁓ I did. And so this hence the reason why I've been single for five years and I've really just put the work in on myself. And ⁓ I mean, I'm not gonna change myself. I'm still a a lover and an an empath and but I've just learned now not to tr take people at face value anymore. Like, you know, people need to earn my trust. ⁓ I still believe in love.
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they don't get into the they don't get into the inner circle right away. There's a there's a time period. Yeah.
Dianne: No, and I still believe in I still believe in love. I still believe in it. I just I just he is a very unfortunately broken, you know, person that just lies his way through life, unfortunately. ⁓ but I would I would recommend a divorce coach like yourself and I'm sure your students to anybody. I've I've re yeah, had a an incredible experience with with you and ⁓
Debra Doak: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. ⁓
Dianne: I think I would have been really chewed up and spit out if I didn't have you. More so than I was. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Yeah, you didn't get through it unscathed. ⁓ but I mean, divorcing someone with a little bit of a character disorder or that creates as much chaos as yours did. ⁓ it's traumatic. We get beat up doing it. ⁓ but hopefully we minimize some of the damage or at least mitigated some of it. ⁓ and I
Dianne: I didn't. No. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: I appreciate you being so transparent and honest about what the experience was like for you. And you know, I don't have a magic wand. I can't fix everything as a coach, but it sounds like you still felt supported and felt like there was value and that ⁓ you got through it a l a little better because I was around.
Dianne: Yeah. Hundred percent. Absolutely.
Debra Doak: Good. ⁓ you know, and ⁓ what stands out to me most about your story is yes, it was legally complicated. Yes, it was a little financially complicated. But it's how you really did wake up. You really did choose yourself. You really are were focused on getting free so that you could build the life you deserve. And that's what now you're helping your clients do, right? Yeah.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there's there's a lot of men out men and women out there like that. There is
Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah. That that kind of need that. So if we have people listening today, they're in the middle of kind of that right now and feeling really overwhelmed and feeling defeated, what would you want them to hear?
Dianne: I would say that they should reach out for support because I mean even this is the time to do it. I mean, this is one of the biggest decisions of your life is to get a divorce. And this is the time to to get support because it can really save a lot of time and effort and and money. You can save a lot of money to hire a divorce coach. Even though
Debra Doak: Mm. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. We tell people that.
Dianne: Even though it costs yeah, even though it costs money, it can save you a lot of money. Yeah. Well, and it it's it's way less than an attorney. That's for sure.
Debra Doak: Mm. It seems counterintuitive, right? But I do think it's true. Yes, especially, yeah, a lot less. ⁓ thanks for for sharing that. So if you're listening and some of this is resonating, if you're curious about what working with a divorce coach might look like, I want to encourage you to go to the website, divorce coachesacademy dot com. We have a coach locator there of all the coaches we've trained in a foundation of alternative dispute resolution, which is actually trying to stay out of court, trying to get
Dianne: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Debra Doak: Make those good decisions so that you actually can navigate it with a little less overwhelm and a little more ⁓ clarity. Diane, I don't I don't want to hop off here without the opportunity for you to talk a little bit about your book and then tell people where they can connect with you, where can they order the book and what kind of coaching support do you offer?
Dianne: book is on Amazon. It's Love Bomb. And it's ⁓ the subtitle I think is phenomenal. It's ⁓ He Sold Her Dream and Delivered a Nightmare. And it's ⁓ yes, and ⁓ you can find me at Diane Harris.com, which was two N's, two Rs. And ⁓ yes, and you'll can read my story is ⁓ it's pretty raw, it's pretty real and it's very authentic and it's it's something in it's it's
Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we'll have the link in the show notes.
Dianne: I've gotten really incredible feedback so far. So I think I think even you, Deb, when you read the rest of it, you're gonna 'cause there's a lot in there that you don't know. So I c I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Yeah.
Debra Doak: Yeah, good. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Trust me guys. She went through it. She went through it. This man tried to pull everything out of the hat that he could to discredit you and make you crumble, and yet you didn't. So kudos to you for that.
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Mm. No. No. And if I can get through it, I mean anybody can. Absolutely.
Debra Doak: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So I I again I want to thank you. I think it's so meaningful to have folks listening here from a client's perspective, what difference it really made in your in your divorce, in your process, in your ability to now recover now that you've been through it, right? Because that's really what it's all about is we've got to get through it to get back get on the other side. Right. And that's what stands out to me is you divorced someone that was so difficult. made life so hard for you. ⁓ and yet you remained committed, you believed life was going to be better on the other side and you were going to stick through it. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Any any last words you want to share with folks before we kind of call it a day?
Dianne: Mm-hmm. Yes. That way. Yes. When I get asked this question, it is always listen to your intuition. Because if I had, I would never have gotten into that relationship in the first place. Listen to your intuition. Listen to your gut. It's always right. Yes. Yes.
Debra Doak: Ditto. Ditto ditto. Yeah, that is a that is very important. And we discount ourselves. We don't listen to our second brain and our gut and what it's telling us. So okay. Well, thank you all for joining us. Diane, thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to come on here and chat.
Dianne: Thank you, Deborah. This has been wonderful. I appreciate it so much.
Debra Doak: Awesome. All right, guys. We'll be back next week with another topic about divorce and divorce coaching and how it helps folks navigate with more clarity and less overwhelm. We'll talk to you then.
Dianne: Bye-bye.
