speaker-1: Hello everyone! Welcome back to another remastered episode of DevToDev season one. DevToDev is the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. And I wanted to bring this episode back for a couple of reasons. One, I really enjoyed it, it was a great conversation. I was lucky enough to work with Zane for a couple of years while we were both at Cinemax Online Studios. He was an awesome designer to work with. I think his story is fascinating from the toy car trade that got him started trading toy cars for a Game Boy and Pokemon Yellow to realizing he needed to pivot from robotics and engineering career because although he enjoyed the programming part, he didn't enjoy the robotics part, and so he built ⁓ an ASCII monster hunter demo and then managed to switch courses and fast-track the game design course, which is a really fascinating story and a good example of someone finding their niche and doing the work to really make sure they land it. And finally, F. Dane loves problems and that sort of Genesis of that comes from his dad. The line, the only thing that stops you from solving a problem is yourself, and also how you know that's persisted throughout his career and become his focus. I think those elements of the conversation are worth highlighting again. And if you haven't heard them, I think they're well worth listening to. And if you have, I think they're worth listening to again. But also I think Zayn is a tech designer and tech design is a role that I don't think many people understand or know much about or talk about. Right. It's not one of the commonly described roles when people discuss what you can do in in game development. So I think it's worth rehighlighting it, especially if you're a budding, you know, game developer wanting to get in into the industry or Perhaps relatively early in your game design career, or if you're a tech designer yourself, tech designers differ wildly across different studios. So I think it's an it's great insight. As a not as technical, but technical designer myself, I found it a really interesting look into how tech design works and what ⁓ this particular tech designer Zayn enjoys about the role. So please check it out. I hope you enjoy it. As always, use your little nudges. We're on Patreon. That's where this episode can be found originally along with the other 16 episodes of season one. ⁓ I've been re Mastering a few of these throughout this hiatus between season two and three, which has been really fun, sort of bringing some of the techniques from season two back to season one, adding intros and and new graphics and stuff, which has been fun. But also, you know, an opportunity to point people at the Patreon and hey, if you if you're interested in checking out more of these conversations, they're there. Before season two also migrates there when season three starts in a couple of weeks. So please check those out. Thank you to everyone that likes and shares as always. Really appreciate it. Please continue to do that. If you know someone that you think has had an interesting career in game dev and you would like me to talk to them, please let me know. Please reach out either on the socials or at dev2dev podcast at gmail.com. ⁓ I would love some guest recommendations. I'm definitely lining up a good chunk of people for season three. Excited for season three to kick off, but always open to new discussions, especially if I don't know them. As mentioned in season two, I really enjoy those conversations, getting to know people live on the pod and in the discussion. So I'll be back again at the end for the for the outro, but in the meantime, let's sit back and listen in to a remastered edition of Dev to Dev with Zane Draper. Yes, I'm really excited to dig into your history Zane. You've got some fascinating bits and bobs to to talk about and you know what your experience was. ⁓ so thank you for taking the time. ⁓ I always like to start this conversation with my favourite question. What first inspired you about video games?
speaker-0: Ooh, I've been playing games since I was, you know, a kid. ⁓ I think ⁓ the first thing that I played that really kind of made me feel like this is something I was really interested in. ⁓ it was ⁓ on the original Game Boy. ⁓ I little backstory was the Game Boy color. ⁓ I traded ten toy cars in kindergarten for ⁓ the original Game Boy with Pokemon Yellow. ⁓ and Pokemon Yellow is kind of what ⁓ what hooked me ⁓ from there on. ⁓ and I just been playing ever since and ⁓ I don't think I really knew it would be a career ⁓ as so much as I knew I was obsessed with them. ⁓ but eventually it did turn into one. So ⁓ pretty pretty early transition for me.
speaker-1: Love that and I'm gonna say, heck of an exchange rate. Ten toy cars for a Game Boy in Pokemon Yellow.
speaker-0: His mom was not happy, but I refused to give it back.
speaker-1: ⁓ Well done, sir. Well done. ⁓ okay, so Game Boy, Pokemon, kind of ⁓ the the thing that kick started you. Wh where where did you grow up? Where did that where was this kind of ⁓ happening?
speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ Bath, New York. So ⁓ just a really, really small town, not a lot of people there. ⁓ and ⁓ not not a tech hub, no game studios or anything around there, but ⁓ yeah, just small town, ⁓ small town America, I guess.
speaker-1: Right, right. And so, you know, growing up in a small town, fell in love with video games, what what kind of age did you say that was, kindergarten?
speaker-0: That was kindergarten when I when I first started playing the color.
speaker-1: Right, okay. So so nice and young, trying to you know, video games got hooked to you really early, that's good. and ⁓ so do you have any siblings? Did you grow up with any other any other gamers in the house?
speaker-0: Yeah, I I've got three siblings, ⁓ all gamers. ⁓ you know, my my older brother Eric used to ⁓ he had the S N E S ⁓ and he'd invite us over to play once in a while ⁓ with him and his friends. So ⁓ that was that was really big. ⁓ and then my little brothers have been playing as well ⁓ their entire lives.
speaker-1: Okay, so big gaming family then, all all gamers. Okay. ⁓ and so sort of Game Boy SNES, that kind of era was what piqued your interest. Was there anything particular about those games or was it just games in general, just the interactivity?
speaker-0: Games games in general, ⁓ I think. ⁓ I definitely I had ⁓ Tetris and everything as well. ⁓ I may ⁓ I think it's always the challenge of them that that kind of hooks me. ⁓ narrative is always a lot of fun and I've always enjoyed them, but it's it's kind of those minute by minute challenges that kind of draw you in or draw me in personally, ⁓ and kind of ⁓ drive that addiction like kind of like the Bellatro formula there where you're you're kinda playing round by round and that's kind of what hooks me more than any any long term effect, though I do love a narrative game.
speaker-1: Right, interesting. So kind of the immediate challenge, trying to beat yourself, beat your score, trying to just get better and better is what drives you. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Almo almost like a gambling loop, without any actual gambling, but kinda that that immediate payoff and you're like, ⁓ I think I could do better than that. I think I could beat that score. ⁓ I gotta try again. ⁓ and then I I'll just you lose hours into it, you know?
speaker-1: Right, and it's so that that has that always been the draw? Is that does that continue to be the draw now?
speaker-0: Yeah, I I still love those challenge games. I think I've in my in my advancing years, ⁓ I've transitioned more into what I call a social gamer. ⁓ the individual games matter less and less to me these days. They still gotta be fun. ⁓ but I usually find that I'm drawn to whatever I can play with other people. If that's if that's couch co-op, if that's, you know, tower fall just with a couple friends that are sitting on the couch, or if that's the new battlefield game or something like that. As long as I've got people to play with, I think that's become more of the the draw for me in ⁓ these days.
speaker-1: it. Okay, that makes sense. ⁓ okay, so so early kind of competition ⁓ challenge games kind of you know things that on those early consoles getting you excited. did you in that early in those early years did you ever think that you could make video games? Were you ever drawn to the actual production of video games or was it just the playing?
speaker-0: Just the playing. When I was a kid, ⁓ it was always one of those things that all of your your friends were talking about, ⁓ I'm gonna make video games when I when I grow up. And ⁓ for me that never really stuck as a possibility. I even when I went to college, I didn't think that was a career path. You know, I I had no clue what I was going to college for. ⁓ but video games was never even on my radar as an option until I think my almost my third year of college. And all of a sudden I was like, That's ⁓ people do that. I could do that. ⁓ so no, all through my childhood it was it was mostly just a a passion for playing. ⁓ that eventually turned into a career years and years down the road.
speaker-1: Got it. ⁓ yeah, and so you went to Rochester Institute of Technology, correct? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yep. I did I did a year at ⁓ community college, a local Corning Community College, ⁓ where I I just transitioned my program three times. ⁓ philosophy, mathematics, and then computer programming, ⁓ because I had no clue what I wanted to do. And then after that first year I transitioned to R I T.
speaker-1: Right, okay. And so you you were there for programming. So so programming had kind of drawn you at the engineering side of kind of drawing you in at some point?
speaker-0: Well, actually when I when I started at RIT, my first three years or two and a half years at R IT were actually for a robotics electrical engineering program. I didn't even know that ⁓ it wasn't until I was halfway through my program at RIT that I was like, ⁓ they have a game design program and it's it kind of encapsulates that coding ⁓ that I love. Cause I I didn't know I liked program until I got into that robotics program and we're doing more like chip development and stuff. And then in the third year or second year, they had to start to dive into like actual programming languages to design the chips. And I'm like, no, this is this is my thing. I really, really enjoy this. and then I realized I didn't really enjoy robotics as much. It was too small scale, and ⁓ you don't really see the payoff for what you're working on very quickly. It takes a long time to develop the tech. ⁓ and then you turn around and you I think for one of my classes as a demo, I made like a little ⁓ ASCII ⁓ command-lined monster hunter game. And I was like, No, this if I could do this for a career, that's that's the way to go.
speaker-1: Right, that's fascinating. So y you didn't really have any programming sort of desires until you stumbled across it on a different course and the and what was it about engineering that drew you in so quickly?
speaker-0: problem solving. I I think it's the same thing that draws me into playing games. ⁓ is the same thing that draws me into, you know, ⁓ any type of tech development or, you know, developing video games is pretty much always just problem solving, whether that's solving a design problem to make something fun or just solving a coding problem or debugging. problem solving is kind of ⁓ my my my go to answer for that. It's always whenever I'm doing interviews, I'll be like, This is the cheesiest answer ever. But I don't the the property in what I'm working on is important, but the bigger thing is it's just gotta be have have dynam dynamic problems to work on. ⁓ and that's what drew me to engineering without a doubt.
speaker-1: Yeah. Interesting. So problem solving but and also I I'm I'm guessing here having the tools to solve them, right? 'Cause engineering is like a direct there's a problem, I directly execute the code to solve that problem kind of thing. There's a one to one relationship there.
speaker-0: Yeah, ex absolutely. ⁓ and and I think in in games even more so you see that result immediately. You ⁓ you can run and see like, did I s did I solve the problem or is it still there? You can you can you can see that result ⁓ instantly. So it was just kind of that natural evolution from, you know, that an engineering focused background to, you know, getting into something that is visual and you can see people play and you can solve those problems immediately.
speaker-1: Right, got it. That makes sense. So you see the challenge, you figure out a solution, you solve it, it happens in front of you and then you move on to the next one. That that's yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so so you stumble across a game design course whilst doing something else and I'm I'm guessing it's that you were like as a gamer, that was just immediately like, That's that sounds fun, I wanna do that.
speaker-0: It did. I I I didn't think it was gonna happen. ⁓ the RIT Game Depp program was pretty, pretty strict. ⁓ and that was for like new students. So transfer students within the college were also I think only like three or four made it over that year, ⁓ for like a transfer from another program. ⁓ but ⁓ I didn't think it was gonna happen, but I wanted to take that shot. So that semester I learned like three new programming languages. I made a portfolio of like five really, really bad games. ⁓ But to just to show off that I was willing to learn and kind of jump into all these different things and and they loved it and I was able to transfer over and I think I started in my second semester of my third year. ⁓ and I and I finished a four year program I think in like two years. So it was it was quite the rough
speaker-1: Yeah, and I guess you you it you must have taken to it like a duck to water then to to kind of be able to complete it that quickly. It just it just clicked with you right away.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and it was a game design ⁓ and development program. So a lot of the programming I had already done in the other program was ⁓ and in engineering was already like at that level where I needed to be. So it was easy to kind of transfer over there. And then it was picking up all those design skills and and that understanding about how to make a game fun ⁓ that I kinda had to focus on for those years in the program.
speaker-1: Interesting. Yeah. So it was so that game design angle was kind of more creative than you know, than a straight engineering course. I guess you had that blend of engineering and game design in that course.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, it was both. ⁓ they really wanted to focus on making sure you had those technical skills. But then there was entire classes on game design and and coming up with ⁓ you know, game docs and pitches and then ⁓ coming up with final deliveries for games that were fun and you'd get evaluated on that. But then you had to do all that implementation yourself to prove that you also knew how to use an engine or or to code or anything like that.
speaker-1: Wow, yeah, very technical course. That's that sounds like fun. ⁓ and so from there, ⁓ out out of college, how did you transition from I mean, I guess during college you were doing there was quite a lot of overlap with ⁓ co designing some other projects and and working on i I I wanna just dig into a little bit the the Associate Association of Blind and Visually Impaired projects you worked on, the Labyrinth. Like how did that come about?
speaker-0: Yeah, that was that was a student project, ⁓ something we were just working on where we ⁓ you know, the RITC has a very diverse p ⁓ community. We have a lot of deaf or blind students. ⁓ so we wanted to set up a game that could be played by ⁓ students that were visually impaired. ⁓ and so that was a lot of just audio scaping, ⁓ trying to make sure an audio ⁓ aud ⁓ audio based world was something that could be navigable. So ⁓ a lot of that was just text-based prompts, ⁓ but also trying to use that kind of three-dimensional audio just to make an environment. I think it was a dungeon we were working on. So, like cueing audio, like, ⁓ there's a trap springing to your right, or you hear a monster off to your left in the distance. ⁓ so just a lot of that kind of stuff. It was, it was ⁓ very student-led. We had a voice actor that was another student ⁓ to kind of narrate the whole thing. ⁓ a lot of fun, but it was it was a very unique project that we were on.
speaker-1: Got it. Interesting. And and a real convergence there of design and and programming then, yeah. Like you're really trying to solve that's a tricky game design problem to solve, to create mechanics for for the visit. So really interesting how that must have really pushed your game design and implementation skills.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And it wasn't done in a game engine or anything. We were doing that all from scratch. So it was kind of like that that initial bite at ⁓ very very diverse problem solving and kind of led into a lot of ⁓ later projects and things, that kind of mentality of being open to solving the problem outside of a kind of traditional game engine or or ⁓ project sense.
speaker-1: Hmm, that's cool. ⁓ and so so from college, how did you sort of transition from there into an industry job?
speaker-0: Yeah, so ⁓ I I had kind of bounced around between a couple of different jobs when I was in college, doing like ⁓ basic QA for a ⁓ a ⁓ Candy Crush style game, ⁓ doing level testing and things like that. And then I did a volunteer project at a a studio called Galaxy and Turmoil, which was just kind of a a large scale FPS free-to-play, ⁓ that I worked with, but it volunteer, not paid or anything. ⁓ so I was working actually at the school, ⁓ working on a VR game, ⁓ for for ⁓ a football team actually for a VR experience for a pre-game setup. ⁓ when a a friend of mine ⁓ who is working at a local game studio, one of the only local game studios called Work It Man, ⁓ he ⁓ was working there and he had come in to visit some friends because he had just graduated the year before. ⁓ and he goes, Yeah, they're they're looking for people. And I'm like, You I'm looking for I'm looking for people. How about how about you take my application in? ⁓ and he goes, Okay, I'll I'll see if they're I'll see if they're interested and he takes the application in and Luckily the studio was really, really entwined with RIT. Most of the people that they hire. I think it was like ninety-five percent of the staff at the time was RIT alumni or even professors who were kind of working with the studio. ⁓ so it was a pretty ⁓ honestly, in this in the state of the industry, ⁓ it was a pretty iz easy interview. I things went really, really well. I walked in, I did one interview with them. ⁓ it went great. I walked out of there, went to my favorite sushi place across the street, and I I think I had a call by the time I was driving home that I had got the job. So it was ⁓ the easiest interview process I've had since since college, but ⁓ landed me in kind of that kind of definitive role that my time at work, man, I feel like kind of really shaped ⁓ how I approach and how I work ⁓ with problems these days.
speaker-1: Interesting, yeah, and y I guess you were hired as a programmer, correct?
speaker-0: Workman is kind of z kind of unique, which is ⁓ one of the ⁓ selling points for it for me, is that ⁓ they didn't have programmer or designer roles. They only had a developer role. And that meant that you were doing both. ⁓ we were working with clients, all kinds of people, Nickelodeon, Disney, you know, all kinds of different ⁓ people would come and hire the studio. ⁓ and you got to help design the work, design what the game should be like, but then you had to do all of the implementation yourself. ⁓ we worked anywhere from like a a three person team to a fifteen person team. on different projects. ⁓ so it you were doing both, which ⁓ I think the RIC program really lent itself well to because all of a sudden you're you're in you're in the fire and you're going, ⁓ I need to I need to make this and I need to design this and it needs to be good because these are real clients. ⁓ so it it paid off really, really quick ⁓ as soon as I joined with the studio.
speaker-1: Yeah, I was gonna say that sounds like the professional version of your college college experience. Yeah.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. And and I think I think because the college was so entwined with the studio that it it lent itself well. They didn't need to focus on f finding two different roles. The people that were graduating from the program did both things. They were and they were very good at both things. So
speaker-1: Right, that makes a lot of sense. So that must have be like you say, it gave you a really good grounding in development. A lot of projects you got to work on, a lot of different types of projects I'm guessing.
speaker-0: Absolutely. We worked on everything. They still work on everything. I you know, you would spend one week you're working on like a Barbie title ⁓ for for, you know, ⁓ you know, a a a major studio, and then the next week you're working with a local museum to set up a a fish tank experiment where like kids can interact with it and then they install it in the in the the actual museum itself. And ⁓ then the next week you're working on, unfortunately, a crypto game and you know, it's just a lot of experience. So you're bouncing between, you know, there you're not really using Too many too much of a game engine. Sometimes we'd use Unity, but other times you're building stuff from scratch, or you're making a web game, or you're you're building things ⁓ kind of in the moment as you need them. And I think that kind of approach made this built this mentality, I think, for everyone who's worked there, that you know, there's always a solution to the problem. You just need to find it. And you can find it. You just you need to have that kind of confidence in your approach. ⁓ and I think having to do that, I think I did over two dozen projects with them, having to do it that many times, all of a sudden you're like, There's no problem that's going to stress you out because you've been you've been on those stressful projects. So like you, you just have this approach of knowing that you can find the answer. You just need to take a breath and you'll you'll make it through it.
speaker-1: It's funny how that correlates so well with ⁓ Landon who who I had on a couple of episodes ago who'd done the same thing but from a more production production role. Yeah, expressed a similar kind of element of once you've gone through that process you can handle it anything. It feels like that really sort of forges you in the fire if you like.
speaker-0: Yeah, I I was listening to that. Absolutely. I think I think my time at Workin' Man was more not in a negative way, but like that higher stress environment where we'd spend a lot of time, you know. There were late nights where we'd we'd have a project that was due the next morning and two or three of us were in the office until like eight, nine PM, maybe midnight. We'd order food, but you're like heads down grinding at at this, trying to fall solve these problems because there's no one to assist. There's no Unreal Engine support group that you can reach out to or anything. So you you were you were pretty much that last line figuring it out. And then you go to these big AAA studios and they have their own problems, but they're much more organized. They have entire support staff. They have producers. We didn't have any production at Work and Man outside of like a project manager. and you realize, ⁓ things are much calmer in some ways and much worse in other ways, or much different in other ways. ⁓ so it it's ⁓ definitely kind of built a lot of callous on that stress response. You don't really stress as much when you've already been through pretty much, you know. the worst that the industry has to offer as far as those late nights that crunch, you kind of you're ready for pretty much anything at that.
speaker-1: That explains a lot, Zayn, from working with you for for several years. You were the chillest one of the most chill, most level headed people I've ever worked with. So it makes a lot of sense that now I understand that, you know, forging that that you were there for like five years, weren't you?
speaker-0: Five years, yeah. Yep. And I loved it. I ⁓ whatever I'm saying about, you know, how stressful it was. Though the people I worked with there are still some of my ⁓ my favorite folks I've ever worked with. It it truly was i it's is a cliche to say it they're like family when you're working at a company. But that was it was a small studio. Every day after work we'd all kind of ⁓ cluster into the back and we'd play Super Smash Bros together. at like to the point where we we'd get done at five and we'd be there until like seven PM and my wife would be like, Hey, are we having dinner? And I'd be I I'm swear I'm on my way home. I just I was on a streak. I was winning. I had to stay. ⁓ so ⁓ they phenomenal people, phenomenal management, and ⁓ a fantastic studio. So ⁓ as as hard as it was and as as callous building as it was to that stress response, I would not would not trade that away at all.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's a really important part of being a game developer sometimes, right? Not every studio, you know, not every studio has is you know, like you say, many of the big studios it's kind of difficult for that to happen, but in the really small studios, you know, however it works out, that camaraderie you can grow and that time that you want to spend together in the trenches building stuff afterwards, you know, relaxing and and and you know, calming down after an intense period is is very, very ⁓ v very meaningful both as you know, both as a person and as a a colleague and as an employee. ⁓ Yeah. Okay, so so from there you moved on to Lost Boys, correct?
speaker-0: I did. Yeah. I I think it was just five years at Working Man. I had reached a point where I wanted to just kind of experiment and try try something new to work with bigger teams because that was the thing about Working Man is maximum size was ten to fifteen for an individual project. Other times you I I'd be working on three projects at the same time, but each team is only three to four people. So a bit small. So I I kind of wanted to expand and grow into ⁓ you know, that bigger team dynamic, get that experience ⁓ and switch things up. So Yeah, I I ended up searching around. Work ⁓ Lost Boys was ⁓ expanding at the time. ⁓ so they were looking for to to fill lots of spots. ⁓ and I kind of ⁓ I f I feel like I I always tell my wife, I s I just snuck in at the right time. ⁓ kind of they had a door open and I'm just kind of like stepping around the corner. They didn't notice me. ⁓ and yeah, yeah, it was ⁓ a another fantastic team ⁓ that I I especially I worked on a couple different things while I was with them. ⁓ but in particular the first project I worked. ⁓ was a very ⁓ a very ⁓ close knit team. ⁓ they were always on Discord together. C like throughout the day we were always in the Discord call, eight hours. ⁓ and people would drop in and out, but you're always chatting. So a a fantastic transition from that ⁓ very in-person studio of ⁓ of working man to my first like full time remote position with Lost Boy.
speaker-1: Right, yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you. That that was a remote role. So yeah, like like you say, that transition, trying to build those bridges and be that you know, gr build that camaraderie was challenging, but it sounds like you found the right team to to do that with.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and working man, ⁓ I was with Working Man through through the COVID era. So ⁓ we were in in person for probably the first three and a half years of my time with the studio. And then we walked in one day and I saw people carrying out their computers and I was like, What? What's going on? And my my boss, ⁓ Keith, he's like, Well, grab your computer, we're all working from home for he goes, It'll probably only be a week or two. ⁓ and I'm like, Okay, I'm I two weeks working from home, I'll take it. And then that turned into a year and a half of ⁓ you know, working from home. I think we started going back into the office once or twice a week, but not not really a requirement. So we I I had made that transition to remote. ⁓ we that studio, you know, working man wasn't as used to it. So it was a growing pain type of thing. But then when we jumped to Lost Boys, they were set up as a as a remote first studio and they were ready to go. And you know, they had a really great setup with ⁓ different Discord servers for the different teams so you could interact with each other. You know, we'd have a different waiting room for all the different ⁓ teams. So there's an engineering room, a designer room, and you would just see people see people sitting in them. So you could hop in and it was just like going to someone's desk where you'd you'd ⁓ hop in and just chat with them, ask a question about a problem you were having, and then you could hop back out. So ⁓ they were they were a really great landing space for that kind of remote role.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's great. And and that I think lines up with I do I'm a firm believer that you can create the kind of communication bridges that you sort of take for granted in person remote, you just have to put the remote the work in and it sounds like Lost Boys had had kind of figured that out and and had that set up, ready to go.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. I I think they I think they knew. I I think they had an a in-house office where some people worked, ⁓ but they knew that they needed to kind of build that framework. ⁓ and and they might be one of the few studios I've known that used really leaned into Discord, ⁓ which I I find to be a phenomenal tool for co-op. ⁓ you know, Slack and Teams and all these different apps, they they're they're good for like DMing and communication or scheduled calls, but Discord kind of has this unique vibe where you just have those open call rooms where anyone can hop in. And then you can see if people are in that call room and just hop in, chat with them for a bit, or even if they're sitting in there, they can mute themselves up so you know that they're like heads down working, but they're still around. ⁓ so it it's I I think a phenomenal tool for for working remote that ⁓ more people should lean into for sure.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good point. ⁓ and so so in that transition over to Lost Boys, ⁓ you'd sort of been a a you know, designer, engineer, tech designer you've kind of done everything at at Working Man. So did you was that a similar transition at Lost Boys? Did you did your role shift at all?
speaker-0: yeah, I I jumped right into the the tech design role, ⁓ which ⁓ is one of those roles that I think every studio is different in what they mean by tech design. but luckily I think Lost Boys also had a very, very broad definition of what it was. ⁓ and it pretty much was we have a problem, let's throw a tech designer at it and see if they can solve that problem. Cause you could get your hands dirty in blueprints or code, ⁓ and then you could also make sure that whatever you're working on, whether it was a tool or an actual final product. It looked good 'cause you knew your design ethics as well. and ⁓ yeah, I I think the the transition was pretty pretty one to one. ⁓ I think ⁓ working man ⁓ built those those specific building blocks or base blocks for the that career to build on top of once I got over there because I was working on tools to help level designers. I was working on, you know, weapons and actually making sure the feel was good, getting that combat loop down. So Across the board, it was pretty much whatever I think I was the only tech designer. So whatever they needed, whatever any team needed, if it had a technical design element to it, I was the the go-to ⁓ for for the project I was on. So it was really exciting. And because of that, it had that huge range of problems where one day you're working on a gun and making it feel good. And the next it's like a level designer's having a problem with, I need to spawn 300 of these elements and place them, but the tool kind of sucks to do it. Can you come up with another solution versus hey, here's a here's a of vehicle we're working on and and it is running sideways rather than forward. How do we what's going wrong with this? ⁓ so just a huge variety of problems that kind of is my bread and butter.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean tech designer is literally problem solver the job, isn't it, in many ways.
speaker-0: Truly, yeah. Yeah. and different studios I think it just varies on what the problems they want you to focus are. Like some are very broad and you can tackle everything. Others ⁓ are more just like tools focused. So you they just want you to work on on the tools and make sure those are usable for design. So it really varies where you go.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I I think hearing where you know, where you started, you know, your professional career kind of started, it makes complete sense that that you would be a tech designer because like you say it does blur those lines really well between engineering design, you know, sort of lots of crafts kind of overlapping them.
speaker-0: Absolutely. I I always have this, ⁓ my wife is a teacher ⁓ and I interact with a lot of students who are interested in the in ⁓ in the industry. ⁓ and it's always this weird thing where I have to describe what tech design is. ⁓ and a lot of times I start by telling students that when they make a game, you can make a smaller game by yourself. But you know, the more diverse your team is, the more they can specialize in their individual things, the more your game is gonna shine. Like if you find someone who is an expert in a combat design. they're gonna make a really cool combat loop. But if you find someone who is an expert in level design, that combat gets to take place in a level based place. So I I always tell them you you can you can be very broad, but the more you get into the industry, it's it's pays to specialize and you get to create really unique things. And then they ask what tech design is and I'm like, everything? ooh, I kind of trapped myself, didn't I? It's whatever they want, whenever they want it, ⁓ you just have to kind of solve the problem. So if that's your thing, dive into it.
speaker-1: Yes yeah. You want specialists except for when you want really good generalists.
speaker-0: Exactly. A hundred percent. And it feels like tech design, ⁓ th there are definitely some specialized tech designers, whether it's AI or UI or anything like that. But it does feel like it is the role where you kind of go to if you want someone who can just do whatever you need at the time. Especially ⁓ the smaller the studio, I think the more that stands.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can relate to that a lot, I think, as a you know, as a creative designer that is I'm not as technical as you, but is technical, then I feel like yeah, you do end up being that kind of jack of all trades, like, hey, I I kind of understand a lot of these things, so I can jump in and help, I can offer suggestions. It's a fun role if you can kind of if you can carry it off. ⁓ so and yeah, and it sounds like Lost Boys really lent into that for you, which is which is really cool. ⁓ so you were at Lost Boys for ⁓ about a year and a half. How did that role transition ⁓ you know, from that into into Zoss?
speaker-0: Sure, sure. ⁓ yeah. I ⁓ spent ⁓ yeah, I was there about a year and a half, I think, at at Lost Boys. ⁓ unfortunately, ⁓ they were part of the Embracer ⁓ cascade of mergers. ⁓ so ⁓ we ended up cutting quite a few of the projects and unfortunately a a decent amount of the team, I think almost two hundred of us ended up getting let go. ⁓ which happens ⁓ in the industry quite quite a lot, especially these days. So it's I think that's a familiar, familiar tune for a lot of us. ⁓ but ⁓ They they were really great. They they supported us in the transition, tried to help us with like career services and things like that. ⁓ and I ended up ⁓ interviewing at a couple different places, ⁓ but ended up ⁓ meeting with ⁓ the tech design team at Zoss ⁓ and interviewed with them, did my first panel interview, which I had never done before, and I think it was six interviews ⁓ within six hours in one day. So it was quite the marathon. ⁓ but it went great. It ⁓ the team was was really good. They, you know, kind of ⁓ live that vibe of like solving whatever problem comes their way. But but Zoss was much more specialized. So ⁓ I ended up focusing on ⁓ a specific path of like movement or character work ⁓ in the tech design space. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. And and and talk to me about that that shift from from interviewing. It sounds like the you know, like you said, the two previous jobs, the first one had been ⁓ you know, ⁓ the easiest interview you could ever have, it sounds like in many ways. It was, yeah. Yeah. And the Lost Boys, I guess, was a remote interview like the Zoss one, but relatively you know, relatively w you know, relatively con contained, I guess, overall. But the Zoss one was a full panel. So how was that? How did that go for you? How was that experience like?
speaker-0: Nerve wracking ⁓ to a degree. ⁓ I think if there's if there's one thing I I think I've realized over the years, I'm good at just chatting with people. ⁓ so ⁓ to a degree, I I when I used to do more engineering focused interviews, so especially that transition from ⁓ working man to lost boys, I had kind of I had a very broad scope of what I was willing to jump into. I had a lot of engineering background with programming, so that was a I was having conversations like that. And I think there's nothing more nerve-wracking than an engineering interview. ⁓ They are tough. Even if you have a 20 years' experience, you get in there and you're like, I don't know anything. I don't remember anything. Have I done this work? I'm I'm an imposter. ⁓ So so I I had started with those interviews and then with the the tech design and the design interviews, they're much more like there's there's still some technical elements, but you're you're explaining things, you're talking things through and I'm much more comfortable in that space. So So while there is a element of ⁓ nerves, I think, a lot of times ⁓ when I approach ⁓ a interview, ⁓ my goal is to just get people off topic. If if I can successfully get someone off topic, ⁓ then I feel like I've I've done well because that means they they were willing to just chat. So the the example I always use is ⁓ a friend of mine, Jeff, was ⁓ he was interviewing me for Lost Boys, ⁓ and he had his background as one of his ⁓ carnivorous plants, like a Venus flytrap thing. And I think we spent 15 minutes of our 35 minute conversation talking about Venus flytraps. ⁓ and I had a I had callback like immediately after that. So so I I the nerves have definitely died down over the years. They're never gone. ⁓ but you know, they feel more like conversations. But a tech like a tech panel interview throws all that out the window because you are you're answering real questions like hard questions or problems that the team is trying to solve at the time and they want to see if you have a unique perspective. And then it's five hours of that throughout the day. And it is it's a lot, you know, it wears you down, especially to get to the last one. I think the last one was with the tech director, Cliff, ⁓ who's phenomenal. But you by that point your brain is like soup, and he's asking some some decent questions, and you're like, you're like your eyes twitching a little bit, and you're trying to like make sure you're still coherent. So it it was it it was a huge ramp up. I think every interview I've had since leaving college, every time, like group of interviews. get harder. They they they just get more ⁓ substantial, I think would be the better term rather than harder. There's there's more to prove, more to talk about, more to like discuss every time you you get back into the interview pool.
speaker-1: Yeah, and and yeah, of course the evo the evolution of the technology, the evolution of, you know, languages or you know, whatever of it depending on that gap. Yeah, I guess I've never thought I mean I've always been terrified of engineering interviews. I think I would fail. I remember once I went to a studio and they thought I was interviewing for an engineer, and the first person that came in asked me questions and I just sort of blinked at them and went, A are you interviewing the right person? 'Cause they were asking me I was like, I don't that's engineer. I don't know that. ⁓ but you
speaker-0: I think that I think that response is also the response you get, even if you're in the right interview. Every time I've gotten into an engineering interview, they'll ask me something simple like what's a class in C sharp? And I'm like, I've never heard of a class. What are you talking about? I'm I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna let myself out. ⁓ they they just they're always nerve wracking.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can imagine. And I would imagine in the tech design role there's a chance. I I I like I think designer roles designer interviews tend to be a little bit more about personality, right? Who you are as a person, and a little bit of creative riffing, hopefully, right? Can you design? Do you know the basics? Can you get people excited about stuff? I would imagine and obviously engineering does ⁓ the feel like the opposite end, they're like hard skills, right? You've got to be a yes, it's personality, of course, but a lot of it is hard skills, do you have the chops to, you know, to actually engine you know, be an engineer here? I would imagine tech design could almost be both, which is
speaker-0: And you never know which it's gonna be. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, especially you get into a panel interview, you're always like, I have no idea if they're gonna ask me hard questions. Like ⁓ I I you know, I think they'd kind of divided those those panel interviews between like different departments ⁓ as Zoss. So you you kind of bounce between, I know I'm gonna talk to two engineers, but how much do they expect me to know about this? ⁓ I've had ⁓ interviews more recently that are ⁓ way more technically inclined when you get into those engineering interviews where they want to know that you can you can speak their language, that you can interact and, you know, pick up the ball if you need to on more simple, like you know, engineering solutions so that the engineering team doesn't need to get into it. So but you never know what you're gonna get. It's always kind of a grab bag. ⁓ and and ⁓ where sometimes you do get those designer questions, which I I'm not saying are easier, but it's more of like it's a process thing. Like they want to know how your brain thinks, how you work, how you approach things and how how well you can communicate those. versus you get into those interview in engineering questions and you're like, they want specific solutions. There's a right answer here that you need to give and you're like, ⁓ no, brain just shuts down.
speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, I can imagine that's terrifying. And and have you found kind of over your time as a tech designer, have you found that threshold for the level of engineering that you're that you need to to change, to have gone up, gone down? Like you say, is it kind of studio specific? Is it time specific? Like have you experienced any of that?
speaker-0: Yeah, it it really is studios ⁓ specific. And and obviously the role that you're going for, like, you know, I I fall ⁓ pretty fairly into the senior tech designer role right now, but I've had interviews for like principal roles, ⁓ trying to you know just move up that ladder a little bit. And they they do get more complicated where they want to make sure you know that process. ⁓ but yeah, like I like we said, some studios really want you to be able to code and to be able to jump in and and do some C work if you need to. Simpler stuff than an engineer, but they want to make sure you can do both. ⁓ versus other studios don't want you to touch code at all. They might want you to jump into blueprints and Unreal, but they more want you to be able to communicate. So if we come up with a design, they want to make sure you can write up a a technical design doc on what we need from engineering, but they don't actually want you to do anything. You just need to understand the process. So in those the the questions become much more like like a design pr approach where it's like approach of thought, how you how you solve the problem, how you communicate that problem from ⁓ you know, design to engineering and then back once whatever it is has been worked on. ⁓ so it it really depends on the studio. I think, you know, ⁓ in tech design, each r each interview is is very unique. There's no there's no real duplicating. You can't have a cheat sheet of questions about like this is my this is my canned answer to this problem or this typical solution. Like what's your greatest strength? every everyone is very specifically catered to what they want out of their tech designer in the role. So the questions tend to be quite unique.
speaker-1: Yeah, and and in the like you mentioned the the Zos, the Xenemex Online Studios role that was more player mechanics focused, ⁓ more specialized. Have you found kind of an area across your your your time so far, have you found a particular area of of of sort of this tech design role where you're more drawn to a specialty? Is there a particular specialty that sort of resonated with you more than another one?
speaker-0: ⁓ I don't I don't think so, honestly. ⁓ I think ⁓ and it it's always again one of those interview questions when people ask, like, where what do you enjoy working on the most? And I'm always like nothing specific. I just you gotta give me good problems. And and games d never runs out of good problems. No no game, even a shipped game that's been out for ten years, ⁓ like ESO at Zoss, like it's always got problems. There's always things to solve. ⁓ so that's always my question, is I don't feel the need to specialize or to have a specific area of problem solving, whether it's tools or whether it's ⁓ you know, working on an actual gameplay mechanic, they kind of have the same feel where someone's going to use this. Either a designer is going to use that tool or a player is going to play with that mechanic. And so you're still kind of filling that same role of of ⁓ of satisfying some end user. So the problem is just in a different space, but it it's it is always the problem itself that it draws me the most.
speaker-1: Interesting. And so that that focus on problem solving, y I mean it sounds like that's you know, s is present at the genesis of your career in many ways, right? That's always been a part of you. But it is that I I c side by slightly, I can relate very much to I kinda don't care what I'm working on, I just enjoy the process of of doing what I do, right? Like I relate to that a lot and I do think that is can be a really difficult answer to give at an interview because people could be like, ⁓ you're just totally non committal or like, No, like I just love making the stuff, right? That's where the fun is. But but for you, is that does that stem from what you've learned in your career or does that stem does that correlate to who you are as a person?
speaker-0: Ooh, good good question. ⁓ I think it's a combination. I think I think ⁓ when we graduate from college and we're working, you know, and we're trying to get into the game industry, I think we all have specific games that we want to work on. Like I'm a big Elder Scrolls fan. If someone came to me and I had the opportunity to work on an Elder Scrolls game, sold. That's a that's a career peak for me. ⁓ but you realize that when you're getting into the street, that's not those you don't get to make those choices. You you want to find the role in the industry. So you kind of reach out to any studio that has an opening, especially in the beginning. As you move on and you specialize and you and you're further in your industry your career, you get to pick and choose a little bit more and and kind of define the role. But I think early on, especially at Work and Man, you those aren't games that I would play. A lot of them were for kids. They were for, you know, specific specific sol ⁓ areas or or demos for people that ⁓ you know want to play these types of games. So they weren't for me or anything I would play. So you kind of push that part to the side where you you're like, I'm not gonna play this game, but it's still a a game that I'm making. I need to be, I need to care about this game because someone's gonna play it. Like it's I'm not its target demographic, but ⁓ these kids are gonna really enjoy it. I have nieces and nephews who have played my games I've made. And there's nothing better than when they get really excited to tell me about, ⁓ we found your game and we were playing it on the computer. And I'm like, that's great. So so I I guess for me there's there's that combination of you know, my career has kind of shown me that you don't get to focus on just the games you like. You gotta you gotta focus on the games that your audience likes. But at the same time, I think I it is a very much a personal ⁓ personality thing where I just like solving problems. You know, I I'm I'm big into woodworking. I'm big into, you know, housework. I'm big into like ⁓ all kinds of things that just require very unique solutions. And solving the problem is just ⁓ I think the enjoyment I get out of it. So it it's a good combination of both, where the career has been shaped by the fact that I'm not targeting a specific type of game, but I can do that because I still enjoy everything I work on as long as it's challenging.
speaker-1: Yeah, interesting. So the the problem solver is is Zane and sort of where you focus it has been the career, it sounds like. Yeah. And and where does that problem solving originate from? You know, where do you think is that is that from in your DNA, right? Is that something is it could you point to an area where you feel like that problem solving really, really showed itself and became, you know, who you are?
speaker-0: A hundred percent. ⁓ and it it's my dad. ⁓ my dad is ⁓ a a do-it-yourself kind of guy, to the point where literally ⁓ anything he wants thinks he can do or anything he wants to do, he thinks he can do it and will do it. ⁓ and I I think he kind of instilled in my brothers and I that ⁓ the only thing that stops you from solving a problem or coming up with a solution is yourself. If you don't think you have the confidence to do it, or you if you don't think you have the knowledge to do it and you don't have that confidence. then there's nothing to kind of nothing to work with. You don't have that starter spark to get things rolling. So but if you approach a problem you're like, I can solve this, I can figure this out, ⁓ then you you will. You'll you'll at least have the confidence to keep moving forward. ⁓ for him, that's he's a much more hands-on worker. He he works with cars and, you know, construction and electronics and all kinds of stuff. He's a very hands-on guy. ⁓ and for me that turned into, you know, ⁓ especially programming when I first got into college. Like you just you approach, you're like, I can solve this. It might take time, but it's not like this is beyond what I can do. ⁓ and I think that carries into every part of my life. ⁓ in ⁓ you know, as far as traveling or meeting people or, you know, kind of putting yourself out there. You just gotta have that kind of confidence to kick kick the ball rolling and you go from there. And I I think that's where that problem solving comes from. There's never a a problem that's going to stress me out because there's a solution somewhere. I just need to find it and dedicate a little time, but it it all starts with confidence, ⁓ in knowing that you can. ⁓ and he I I very much credit him with ⁓ kind of instilling that that in all of us as kids.
speaker-1: I love that. And when you combine that with what you were saying about working man being, you know, a cauldron that kind of, you know, ⁓ that the a a forge that fired you if you like, that seems like a a a wicked combination to make you a really powerful developer.
speaker-0: It was very fortuitous, I think. Like, you know, ⁓ when I was a workman, we worked on like I worked on a a local company that did AR glasses. ⁓ and I developed a game for AR glasses. I was like a a miner, like you ⁓ you build a mining colony and it's just ki it's kinda like a cookie clicker thing. So, you know, for that to a Barbie game to, you know, crypto, like we just it was ⁓ we were all over the board just working with whoever and I think those two things really combined into setting up a good foundation for the rest of the career that I've had.
speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. And you've mentioned, you know, AR there. I know, you know, across your career you've worked on sort of VR and AR, which again have very unique problems. So I'm guessing those were very interesting areas to work in as well.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And especially when I started working in VR back in college, it was pretty new. They had the Vive and the original Oculus, but the space was still relatively unexplored. When we started, it wasn't even common knowledge that you should have like a frame of ⁓ reference if you're moving the player. So like like being in a vehicle is gonna make you less motion sickness or less motion sick because you can see the frame of the vehicle around you, versus if I'm just grabbing a player and moving them through the sky in VR, there's no frame of there's there's no grounding element. So We had to s discover all of that stuff, you know, when we were making these games. And we made a lot of mistakes when we were making those games that we know we know better now. But, you know, you're kind of on that ground floor of building what this is. ⁓ and with the AR goggles, those don't even have a platform for building or developing on. So you had to do like raw Android apps from from from scratch in order to make anything show up on them. So it just across the board there was so many different ⁓ solutions we had to approach.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's f to me feels like a big reason why VR and AR has kind of at least been moderately successful this time around, 'cause it feels like, you know, people like yourself have been so drawn to but this is a whole new problem set that we have to solve and we've got such technology that we can build our own games, we can build our own engines, we can build our own tech, we can solve them quickly or try and solve them quickly, which has sort of led to a feels like it's led to a lot more software and a lot more forward progress than maybe we've had before.
speaker-0: Absolutely. I I think ⁓ you know, and we've got new VR headsets coming out all the time. Steam just announced their new one. ⁓ and ⁓ AR I think is ⁓ personally it's a space where I think we have enormous potential. I think VR is one of those things where it lends itself very well to games, but ⁓ you still have to put that headset on and you're immersed in this other world versus an AR headset. You can just put that game into the real world. You can have Mario coins when you're running down the street and you're still interacting with the real world, but you kind of build ⁓ a game on top of it. So both fascinating spaces, but I I'm very excited to see AR kind of flourish into something larger.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's cool. ⁓ I I want to ask you a b ⁓ a very specific question about a very specific time at Zos that I think relates to the challenge of being a developer, kind of joining a team. And so so when you joined Zos, you know, working as a tech designer on the player mechanics, ⁓ you came into a space that was owned by another very technical designer and That's quite challenging, right? It's quite challenging to sort of come in and try and sort of carve your own piece out of that and not and I think you did it you and you and that designer in question, Cole, did a fantastic job of kind of figuring that space. Talk to me about what that was like to kind of join a team that was already rolling and to sort of find carve your own niche.
speaker-0: ⁓ it was a very unique ⁓ not problem, but a very unique situation to find yourself in because you're right. ⁓ Cole, ⁓ the designer who was on there, ⁓ was technically technically not a technical designer. ⁓ he was a a senior designer, very ⁓ had a level design background and everything, but he's so technical. He had been on the project for so long, ⁓ that he knows how everything works. He's the one who set up everything in the technical space ahead of time. ⁓ So it it was quite a ⁓ there was a bit of a conflict on that front, like a very friendly conflict, trying to figure out where we divide that line. And I and I'd I'd say even for the first year of working together, there was still a bit of a gray area where we had specific things that we knew we were the person for. If it's a tools thing, we know I'm doing that. If if it's like a ⁓ level design feedback or something like that, that's very much coal for those movement metrics and things. But Then there's all that gray area in between like who responds when someone asks a question. Even if it's slightly technical, Cole still knows all that stuff. But do I respond first? Am I stepping on Cole's toes if I respond first? So it it took us a while to figure that out. And I I think in the end we just sat down and we had a conversation and we just made a doc. And we're like, here are all the things that are specifically in your category, and here are all the things that are specifically in mine. If anyone asks a question on those, we are going to be the person who responds. And then we know. We're not stepping on someone else's toes. But then we still had that middle column where it's like, here's all of our gray area stuff where we both know just as much as the other person about this. So whoever gets to it first or answers a question or has this approach, we're not stepping on toes. We are just putting our best foot forward, responding as quick as we can. ⁓ and I think once we laid out that dock of like just to solidify in both of our minds what to do or how to how to respond, ⁓ it made things so much easier. We had a clear framework to go off of. We knew we weren't kind of I was always concerned about stepping on Cole's toes because he had been the face of our team for so long before I got there. ⁓ that I never wanted to be like, ⁓ I'm gonna bat Cole aside here. I'm gonna take the limelight, I'm gonna answer these questions. So ⁓ it just, you know, even if it was never like an actual personality conflict, because I think Cole is one of my favorite people I've ever worked with, ⁓ and one of the nicest people too, like just such a good guy. ⁓ you still wanted to ⁓ you know, avoid those kind of ⁓ Unintentional confrontations of like, ⁓ Cole was gonna answer this. I stepped, I stepped in front of him in line. So having that framework, I think, helped us a ton. But it it took a while to get there. And I think it was a problem neither of us had really run into before because I think ⁓ our roles were also very broadly defined. We weren't, we weren't given specific things. I think ⁓ for Zoss, tech designers are tools designers ⁓ versus my role. on the team was not. I w I I helped with the tool design, but usually I would hand it off to another tech designer. So it meant I was a very technical person focused on our specific area. ⁓ but so was Cole. So kind of there was no defined line between us that we had to kind of figure out on our own. ⁓ but I think after after that that meeting we had, everything kind of smoothed out, I think really, really well.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I I ⁓ I I think as generalists, which I think in many ways both you and ⁓ Zayn you U Zayn and and Cole and I think tech designers can be, ⁓ I think navigating that space speaks to a lot of who you both are as people, right? Because you know, I it's very easy for someone to come into that role and go and grab a load of stuff and go, This is mine, I'm doing this now, you know, and and ruffle feathers and Yeah, I think that that's that's a difficult challenge on these larger teams, especially if you come from smaller spaces where you are more wearing many hats and like whoever gets to it just does it because we're you know, that's kind of where we are. Exactly, yeah. Navigating that space in a large team and and and that transition from doing that to a large team is really tough and I think you guys did a phenomenal job. ⁓ 'cause it's a hard thing to do.
speaker-0: ⁓ a finger in every pot. Yeah. I I think the further you move up that ladder, especially into a role like you have, where you know, you are you're you're a director, you're kind of if you're stepping into a new studio, you you have all these people you're looking over. But even even at a lower level, when you start to move from like a junior to a mid to a senior to a principal, the further up that ladder you go when you're brought into a pre existing team, there's more there is an element of you you wanna be able to sh grab what you need to work on and work on it. But there's other people who either have more seniority or if they're lower than you, you don't want to make them feel like you're taking away their lunch, this thing they're super excited for. So it's always it's always a process trying to integrate yourself into a team ⁓ and and make sure things go smooth. ⁓ and I imagine that gets significantly more difficult the further up that ladder you go.
speaker-1: think it can but I think it's always tough right wherever you are right to find your place to carve out your niche and also if you're that way inclined not piss a load of people off right like Yes some people do come in with a size twelves and that's what they do, right? But I think you know I think some people want to be the most effective they can be without upsetting a load of people and you know, I think I think it's important. It's a it's a tough challenge. ⁓
speaker-0: Yep, which is a good way to be inclined.
speaker-1: Okay, as we sort of start to wind this down, a couple of questions I'd love to zero in on. ⁓ how has making games changed you as a gamer?
speaker-0: Ooh, it it ⁓ opens your eyes to a lot of things, I think. ⁓ I tend to play games with a lot of friends and they get very annoyed when I'm like, ⁓ this is why this is happening. Mm, I wish they had done this differently. ⁓ it makes you very analytical. ⁓ and I think you have to almost intentionally turn that part of your brain off. ⁓ which is why I never game on my computer because I'm at my computer all day working on games. So I need to come almost like dissociate a little bit and I'm I'm a console gamer because I can It's a whole different space. My mentality is different when I'm in my living room. ⁓ but it's it's that analytical side you kind of have to turn off ⁓ to fully enjoy the game, I think.
speaker-1: That's interesting. I'm very similar. I find I get very uncomfortable sitting playing games on my work PC, not because I don't want to, just 'cause I'm like, that doesn't feel like my gaming space. That feels like my working space. So interesting you have kind of a similar i you if you separate yourself, then you can separate your focus.
speaker-0: Yeah, yep. I I can't work. ⁓ you're at your computer all day, you know, playing games. It doesn't feel relaxing really to to stay at your work computer and play games. So I need to ⁓ I need to go down and and sit on my console. It's I'm very excited for the Steam Machine because it means I can take all my computer games with me down to my TV. ⁓ so yeah, ⁓ that's I I have a hard line between the two. My friends don't understand why I don't play PC games at my computer a lot. ⁓ and I have to explain this to them ⁓ rather frequently.
speaker-1: Got it. That makes sense. ⁓ and how has being a game developer changed you as a human?
speaker-0: ⁓ I think I think in game design we are are very lucky in the type of role we have. ⁓ because even if it's not the genre we like ⁓ or or specifically play ourselves, it's still a very creative and ⁓ I wanna say happy industry. We are working on entertainment, ⁓ versus, you know, working in education or anything. Like there ⁓ there's an element to what we do that is difficult work, but it is fun work. And I think that ⁓ if anything only bolsters your ⁓ create creative elements in the rest of your life, but also kind of a happiness element. We don't need to ⁓ you know, ⁓ there's a there's turmoil in our industry, but day to day the work can be stressful, but we know we're working on something fun and we know we're working on something that a l a lot of people will enjoy. ⁓ and I think that's just an overall peace of mind that you get ⁓ from this career that you might not get in a lot of other careers. Not that those aren't rewarding in their own way, but I I think it's a very different experience to work in in the creative industries.
speaker-1: Interesting. So it kind of the the the fun nature of, you know, to use that word, the fun nature of it kind of gives you peace, right? Gives you happiness in y yeah, you know, what you're doing is fun and therefore it it it feeds back into you as your your everyday life as hey, this is this is a fun role, fun job.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's almost like a sense of wellness, I think. You're still challenging yourself yourself, still like expanding your mind and your creative talents and things, but you're doing so in a space where, you know, I think in my 10 year career almost, I've only had like one coworker that I really had any kind of confrontation with or like, you know, butted heads with. For the most part, the our our our career or our industry is filled with people who are very open and and accepting and creative and just pleasant people to be around. And I think that it just it speaks to an element of wellness that comes with working in this industry. There are unwell elements. Getting laid off is hard for everybody and and that has become more and more a part of our industry. But I think when you have that role, it is there's something very unique and special about it.
speaker-1: Yeah, agreed. ⁓ and last question. You mentioned, you know, siblings that were gamers, you mentioned you, your dad that was very much a problem solver. Like how does your family relate to your your career, your profession?
speaker-0: I don't know that they do at all. Neither of my parents are gamers. My dad is, I would say, an anti-gamer. He does not understand gaming. ⁓ but ⁓ they have never kind of connected with ⁓ the game industry as a whole. I think they're very excited. ⁓ but I will say that when I ⁓ initially told them that I was dropping electrical engineering to go into game design, they were a little concerned. ⁓ they didn't think that was a real they didn't know that that was a real career. They they supported me very much, but ⁓ I don't think games have ever been a thing that they kind of ⁓ connect with ⁓ super directly, to the point where when they people ask them what I do, they're just like games. I we don't know how to describe what he does. ⁓ but ⁓ they're very, very supportive. But ⁓ they ⁓ there's kind of that that wall between, you know, the the type of experience they had, the type of lives they had and, you know, those of people who work in the game industry or even play games. ⁓ my brothers though, very excited. ⁓ they love whatever free stuff I can pass along to them. ⁓ they they are all about it. ⁓ and ⁓ they play a lot of the games. I'll force them to play any game that I've worked on. ⁓ or their kids. If I have a niece or a nephew who is in that age bracket for a game I've made, I will force them to play it. ⁓ same for anybody's I have. ⁓ anything that I I get published, they get a free copy of it or I'm I force them to play it. ⁓ so you know, I'm kind of that kind of that balance. The younger generation of my family and friends, very much on board and connected. My parents, supportive, but from afar.
speaker-1: And then your wife, is she does she play games? You mentioned she's in education. Does you know, does she relate
speaker-0: She plays when I can convince her to. ⁓ she used to play some Call of Duty and things like that. But nowadays we do like Pico Park or those kind of friendly ⁓ family not family games, but like problem solving. We do a lot of ⁓ overcooked and overcooked too, ⁓ where we just sit on the couch and yell at each other and scream chef at each other a lot. ⁓ so those are the type of games she gets into where they're ⁓ very much like myself, they're social games or Mario Party, those kind of things. So that's kind of her sphere of gaming, but nothing too like No triple A games or any any competitive stuff.
speaker-1: Got it. Okay. Well, thank you, Zone. I appreciate your time. It's good to get to know you. You know, we worked together for a while, but these conversations always help me understand and often make me go, ⁓ that explains so much about you know the experience. ⁓ yeah, thank you for your time.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. Yay.
speaker-1: That is the remastered episode of Dev to Dev season one episode thirteen with Zane Draper. Hope you enjoyed listening to it for the first time or again as much as I did. Check out another, I think another remastered episode next week, and then I've got one more theme lined up, I think, before the end of the summer and the end of this hiatus, and we kick off season three with the first episode that I'm really excited about you all hearing the season three. In the meantime, yes, as mentioned, please like and share as you can. Please look out for me on the Corner of Story and Game podcast as well as the Level Design Lobby podcast. I'm going to be on those pretty soon. And I'm excited about those conversations. They've been really fun. Please, if you could leave a review, that really helps. I'd really appreciate it. It's been a while since I asked that, but please, it always helps to get a review. Definitely helps with discoverability, as I've mentioned, is always my the hardest challenge with the podcasts. So thank you to everyone that listens. Please continue to do so, and I will catch you on the next one.
speaker-0: Ooh, I've been playing games since I was, you know, a kid. ⁓ I think ⁓ the first thing that I played that really kind of made me feel like this is something I was really interested in. ⁓ it was ⁓ on the original Game Boy. ⁓ I little backstory was the Game Boy color. ⁓ I traded ten toy cars in kindergarten for ⁓ the original Game Boy with Pokemon Yellow. ⁓ and Pokemon Yellow is kind of what ⁓ what hooked me ⁓ from there on. ⁓ and I just been playing ever since and ⁓ I don't think I really knew it would be a career ⁓ as so much as I knew I was obsessed with them. ⁓ but eventually it did turn into one. So ⁓ pretty pretty early transition for me.
speaker-1: Love that and I'm gonna say, heck of an exchange rate. Ten toy cars for a Game Boy in Pokemon Yellow.
speaker-0: His mom was not happy, but I refused to give it back.
speaker-1: ⁓ Well done, sir. Well done. ⁓ okay, so Game Boy, Pokemon, kind of ⁓ the the thing that kick started you. Wh where where did you grow up? Where did that where was this kind of ⁓ happening?
speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ Bath, New York. So ⁓ just a really, really small town, not a lot of people there. ⁓ and ⁓ not not a tech hub, no game studios or anything around there, but ⁓ yeah, just small town, ⁓ small town America, I guess.
speaker-1: Right, right. And so, you know, growing up in a small town, fell in love with video games, what what kind of age did you say that was, kindergarten?
speaker-0: That was kindergarten when I when I first started playing the color.
speaker-1: Right, okay. So so nice and young, trying to you know, video games got hooked to you really early, that's good. and ⁓ so do you have any siblings? Did you grow up with any other any other gamers in the house?
speaker-0: Yeah, I I've got three siblings, ⁓ all gamers. ⁓ you know, my my older brother Eric used to ⁓ he had the S N E S ⁓ and he'd invite us over to play once in a while ⁓ with him and his friends. So ⁓ that was that was really big. ⁓ and then my little brothers have been playing as well ⁓ their entire lives.
speaker-1: Okay, so big gaming family then, all all gamers. Okay. ⁓ and so sort of Game Boy SNES, that kind of era was what piqued your interest. Was there anything particular about those games or was it just games in general, just the interactivity?
speaker-0: Games games in general, ⁓ I think. ⁓ I definitely I had ⁓ Tetris and everything as well. ⁓ I may ⁓ I think it's always the challenge of them that that kind of hooks me. ⁓ narrative is always a lot of fun and I've always enjoyed them, but it's it's kind of those minute by minute challenges that kind of draw you in or draw me in personally, ⁓ and kind of ⁓ drive that addiction like kind of like the Bellatro formula there where you're you're kinda playing round by round and that's kind of what hooks me more than any any long term effect, though I do love a narrative game.
speaker-1: Right, interesting. So kind of the immediate challenge, trying to beat yourself, beat your score, trying to just get better and better is what drives you. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Almo almost like a gambling loop, without any actual gambling, but kinda that that immediate payoff and you're like, ⁓ I think I could do better than that. I think I could beat that score. ⁓ I gotta try again. ⁓ and then I I'll just you lose hours into it, you know?
speaker-1: Right, and it's so that that has that always been the draw? Is that does that continue to be the draw now?
speaker-0: Yeah, I I still love those challenge games. I think I've in my in my advancing years, ⁓ I've transitioned more into what I call a social gamer. ⁓ the individual games matter less and less to me these days. They still gotta be fun. ⁓ but I usually find that I'm drawn to whatever I can play with other people. If that's if that's couch co-op, if that's, you know, tower fall just with a couple friends that are sitting on the couch, or if that's the new battlefield game or something like that. As long as I've got people to play with, I think that's become more of the the draw for me in ⁓ these days.
speaker-1: it. Okay, that makes sense. ⁓ okay, so so early kind of competition ⁓ challenge games kind of you know things that on those early consoles getting you excited. did you in that early in those early years did you ever think that you could make video games? Were you ever drawn to the actual production of video games or was it just the playing?
speaker-0: Just the playing. When I was a kid, ⁓ it was always one of those things that all of your your friends were talking about, ⁓ I'm gonna make video games when I when I grow up. And ⁓ for me that never really stuck as a possibility. I even when I went to college, I didn't think that was a career path. You know, I I had no clue what I was going to college for. ⁓ but video games was never even on my radar as an option until I think my almost my third year of college. And all of a sudden I was like, That's ⁓ people do that. I could do that. ⁓ so no, all through my childhood it was it was mostly just a a passion for playing. ⁓ that eventually turned into a career years and years down the road.
speaker-1: Got it. ⁓ yeah, and so you went to Rochester Institute of Technology, correct? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yep. I did I did a year at ⁓ community college, a local Corning Community College, ⁓ where I I just transitioned my program three times. ⁓ philosophy, mathematics, and then computer programming, ⁓ because I had no clue what I wanted to do. And then after that first year I transitioned to R I T.
speaker-1: Right, okay. And so you you were there for programming. So so programming had kind of drawn you at the engineering side of kind of drawing you in at some point?
speaker-0: Well, actually when I when I started at RIT, my first three years or two and a half years at R IT were actually for a robotics electrical engineering program. I didn't even know that ⁓ it wasn't until I was halfway through my program at RIT that I was like, ⁓ they have a game design program and it's it kind of encapsulates that coding ⁓ that I love. Cause I I didn't know I liked program until I got into that robotics program and we're doing more like chip development and stuff. And then in the third year or second year, they had to start to dive into like actual programming languages to design the chips. And I'm like, no, this is this is my thing. I really, really enjoy this. and then I realized I didn't really enjoy robotics as much. It was too small scale, and ⁓ you don't really see the payoff for what you're working on very quickly. It takes a long time to develop the tech. ⁓ and then you turn around and you I think for one of my classes as a demo, I made like a little ⁓ ASCII ⁓ command-lined monster hunter game. And I was like, No, this if I could do this for a career, that's that's the way to go.
speaker-1: Right, that's fascinating. So y you didn't really have any programming sort of desires until you stumbled across it on a different course and the and what was it about engineering that drew you in so quickly?
speaker-0: problem solving. I I think it's the same thing that draws me into playing games. ⁓ is the same thing that draws me into, you know, ⁓ any type of tech development or, you know, developing video games is pretty much always just problem solving, whether that's solving a design problem to make something fun or just solving a coding problem or debugging. problem solving is kind of ⁓ my my my go to answer for that. It's always whenever I'm doing interviews, I'll be like, This is the cheesiest answer ever. But I don't the the property in what I'm working on is important, but the bigger thing is it's just gotta be have have dynam dynamic problems to work on. ⁓ and that's what drew me to engineering without a doubt.
speaker-1: Yeah. Interesting. So problem solving but and also I I'm I'm guessing here having the tools to solve them, right? 'Cause engineering is like a direct there's a problem, I directly execute the code to solve that problem kind of thing. There's a one to one relationship there.
speaker-0: Yeah, ex absolutely. ⁓ and and I think in in games even more so you see that result immediately. You ⁓ you can run and see like, did I s did I solve the problem or is it still there? You can you can you can see that result ⁓ instantly. So it was just kind of that natural evolution from, you know, that an engineering focused background to, you know, getting into something that is visual and you can see people play and you can solve those problems immediately.
speaker-1: Right, got it. That makes sense. So you see the challenge, you figure out a solution, you solve it, it happens in front of you and then you move on to the next one. That that's yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so so you stumble across a game design course whilst doing something else and I'm I'm guessing it's that you were like as a gamer, that was just immediately like, That's that sounds fun, I wanna do that.
speaker-0: It did. I I I didn't think it was gonna happen. ⁓ the RIT Game Depp program was pretty, pretty strict. ⁓ and that was for like new students. So transfer students within the college were also I think only like three or four made it over that year, ⁓ for like a transfer from another program. ⁓ but ⁓ I didn't think it was gonna happen, but I wanted to take that shot. So that semester I learned like three new programming languages. I made a portfolio of like five really, really bad games. ⁓ But to just to show off that I was willing to learn and kind of jump into all these different things and and they loved it and I was able to transfer over and I think I started in my second semester of my third year. ⁓ and I and I finished a four year program I think in like two years. So it was it was quite the rough
speaker-1: Yeah, and I guess you you it you must have taken to it like a duck to water then to to kind of be able to complete it that quickly. It just it just clicked with you right away.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and it was a game design ⁓ and development program. So a lot of the programming I had already done in the other program was ⁓ and in engineering was already like at that level where I needed to be. So it was easy to kind of transfer over there. And then it was picking up all those design skills and and that understanding about how to make a game fun ⁓ that I kinda had to focus on for those years in the program.
speaker-1: Interesting. Yeah. So it was so that game design angle was kind of more creative than you know, than a straight engineering course. I guess you had that blend of engineering and game design in that course.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, it was both. ⁓ they really wanted to focus on making sure you had those technical skills. But then there was entire classes on game design and and coming up with ⁓ you know, game docs and pitches and then ⁓ coming up with final deliveries for games that were fun and you'd get evaluated on that. But then you had to do all that implementation yourself to prove that you also knew how to use an engine or or to code or anything like that.
speaker-1: Wow, yeah, very technical course. That's that sounds like fun. ⁓ and so from there, ⁓ out out of college, how did you transition from I mean, I guess during college you were doing there was quite a lot of overlap with ⁓ co designing some other projects and and working on i I I wanna just dig into a little bit the the Associate Association of Blind and Visually Impaired projects you worked on, the Labyrinth. Like how did that come about?
speaker-0: Yeah, that was that was a student project, ⁓ something we were just working on where we ⁓ you know, the RITC has a very diverse p ⁓ community. We have a lot of deaf or blind students. ⁓ so we wanted to set up a game that could be played by ⁓ students that were visually impaired. ⁓ and so that was a lot of just audio scaping, ⁓ trying to make sure an audio ⁓ aud ⁓ audio based world was something that could be navigable. So ⁓ a lot of that was just text-based prompts, ⁓ but also trying to use that kind of three-dimensional audio just to make an environment. I think it was a dungeon we were working on. So, like cueing audio, like, ⁓ there's a trap springing to your right, or you hear a monster off to your left in the distance. ⁓ so just a lot of that kind of stuff. It was, it was ⁓ very student-led. We had a voice actor that was another student ⁓ to kind of narrate the whole thing. ⁓ a lot of fun, but it was it was a very unique project that we were on.
speaker-1: Got it. Interesting. And and a real convergence there of design and and programming then, yeah. Like you're really trying to solve that's a tricky game design problem to solve, to create mechanics for for the visit. So really interesting how that must have really pushed your game design and implementation skills.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And it wasn't done in a game engine or anything. We were doing that all from scratch. So it was kind of like that that initial bite at ⁓ very very diverse problem solving and kind of led into a lot of ⁓ later projects and things, that kind of mentality of being open to solving the problem outside of a kind of traditional game engine or or ⁓ project sense.
speaker-1: Hmm, that's cool. ⁓ and so so from college, how did you sort of transition from there into an industry job?
speaker-0: Yeah, so ⁓ I I had kind of bounced around between a couple of different jobs when I was in college, doing like ⁓ basic QA for a ⁓ a ⁓ Candy Crush style game, ⁓ doing level testing and things like that. And then I did a volunteer project at a a studio called Galaxy and Turmoil, which was just kind of a a large scale FPS free-to-play, ⁓ that I worked with, but it volunteer, not paid or anything. ⁓ so I was working actually at the school, ⁓ working on a VR game, ⁓ for for ⁓ a football team actually for a VR experience for a pre-game setup. ⁓ when a a friend of mine ⁓ who is working at a local game studio, one of the only local game studios called Work It Man, ⁓ he ⁓ was working there and he had come in to visit some friends because he had just graduated the year before. ⁓ and he goes, Yeah, they're they're looking for people. And I'm like, You I'm looking for I'm looking for people. How about how about you take my application in? ⁓ and he goes, Okay, I'll I'll see if they're I'll see if they're interested and he takes the application in and Luckily the studio was really, really entwined with RIT. Most of the people that they hire. I think it was like ninety-five percent of the staff at the time was RIT alumni or even professors who were kind of working with the studio. ⁓ so it was a pretty ⁓ honestly, in this in the state of the industry, ⁓ it was a pretty iz easy interview. I things went really, really well. I walked in, I did one interview with them. ⁓ it went great. I walked out of there, went to my favorite sushi place across the street, and I I think I had a call by the time I was driving home that I had got the job. So it was ⁓ the easiest interview process I've had since since college, but ⁓ landed me in kind of that kind of definitive role that my time at work, man, I feel like kind of really shaped ⁓ how I approach and how I work ⁓ with problems these days.
speaker-1: Interesting, yeah, and y I guess you were hired as a programmer, correct?
speaker-0: Workman is kind of z kind of unique, which is ⁓ one of the ⁓ selling points for it for me, is that ⁓ they didn't have programmer or designer roles. They only had a developer role. And that meant that you were doing both. ⁓ we were working with clients, all kinds of people, Nickelodeon, Disney, you know, all kinds of different ⁓ people would come and hire the studio. ⁓ and you got to help design the work, design what the game should be like, but then you had to do all of the implementation yourself. ⁓ we worked anywhere from like a a three person team to a fifteen person team. on different projects. ⁓ so it you were doing both, which ⁓ I think the RIC program really lent itself well to because all of a sudden you're you're in you're in the fire and you're going, ⁓ I need to I need to make this and I need to design this and it needs to be good because these are real clients. ⁓ so it it paid off really, really quick ⁓ as soon as I joined with the studio.
speaker-1: Yeah, I was gonna say that sounds like the professional version of your college college experience. Yeah.
speaker-0: A hundred percent. And and I think I think because the college was so entwined with the studio that it it lent itself well. They didn't need to focus on f finding two different roles. The people that were graduating from the program did both things. They were and they were very good at both things. So
speaker-1: Right, that makes a lot of sense. So that must have be like you say, it gave you a really good grounding in development. A lot of projects you got to work on, a lot of different types of projects I'm guessing.
speaker-0: Absolutely. We worked on everything. They still work on everything. I you know, you would spend one week you're working on like a Barbie title ⁓ for for, you know, ⁓ you know, a a a major studio, and then the next week you're working with a local museum to set up a a fish tank experiment where like kids can interact with it and then they install it in the in the the actual museum itself. And ⁓ then the next week you're working on, unfortunately, a crypto game and you know, it's just a lot of experience. So you're bouncing between, you know, there you're not really using Too many too much of a game engine. Sometimes we'd use Unity, but other times you're building stuff from scratch, or you're making a web game, or you're you're building things ⁓ kind of in the moment as you need them. And I think that kind of approach made this built this mentality, I think, for everyone who's worked there, that you know, there's always a solution to the problem. You just need to find it. And you can find it. You just you need to have that kind of confidence in your approach. ⁓ and I think having to do that, I think I did over two dozen projects with them, having to do it that many times, all of a sudden you're like, There's no problem that's going to stress you out because you've been you've been on those stressful projects. So like you, you just have this approach of knowing that you can find the answer. You just need to take a breath and you'll you'll make it through it.
speaker-1: It's funny how that correlates so well with ⁓ Landon who who I had on a couple of episodes ago who'd done the same thing but from a more production production role. Yeah, expressed a similar kind of element of once you've gone through that process you can handle it anything. It feels like that really sort of forges you in the fire if you like.
speaker-0: Yeah, I I was listening to that. Absolutely. I think I think my time at Workin' Man was more not in a negative way, but like that higher stress environment where we'd spend a lot of time, you know. There were late nights where we'd we'd have a project that was due the next morning and two or three of us were in the office until like eight, nine PM, maybe midnight. We'd order food, but you're like heads down grinding at at this, trying to fall solve these problems because there's no one to assist. There's no Unreal Engine support group that you can reach out to or anything. So you you were you were pretty much that last line figuring it out. And then you go to these big AAA studios and they have their own problems, but they're much more organized. They have entire support staff. They have producers. We didn't have any production at Work and Man outside of like a project manager. and you realize, ⁓ things are much calmer in some ways and much worse in other ways, or much different in other ways. ⁓ so it it's ⁓ definitely kind of built a lot of callous on that stress response. You don't really stress as much when you've already been through pretty much, you know. the worst that the industry has to offer as far as those late nights that crunch, you kind of you're ready for pretty much anything at that.
speaker-1: That explains a lot, Zayn, from working with you for for several years. You were the chillest one of the most chill, most level headed people I've ever worked with. So it makes a lot of sense that now I understand that, you know, forging that that you were there for like five years, weren't you?
speaker-0: Five years, yeah. Yep. And I loved it. I ⁓ whatever I'm saying about, you know, how stressful it was. Though the people I worked with there are still some of my ⁓ my favorite folks I've ever worked with. It it truly was i it's is a cliche to say it they're like family when you're working at a company. But that was it was a small studio. Every day after work we'd all kind of ⁓ cluster into the back and we'd play Super Smash Bros together. at like to the point where we we'd get done at five and we'd be there until like seven PM and my wife would be like, Hey, are we having dinner? And I'd be I I'm swear I'm on my way home. I just I was on a streak. I was winning. I had to stay. ⁓ so ⁓ they phenomenal people, phenomenal management, and ⁓ a fantastic studio. So ⁓ as as hard as it was and as as callous building as it was to that stress response, I would not would not trade that away at all.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's a really important part of being a game developer sometimes, right? Not every studio, you know, not every studio has is you know, like you say, many of the big studios it's kind of difficult for that to happen, but in the really small studios, you know, however it works out, that camaraderie you can grow and that time that you want to spend together in the trenches building stuff afterwards, you know, relaxing and and and you know, calming down after an intense period is is very, very ⁓ v very meaningful both as you know, both as a person and as a a colleague and as an employee. ⁓ Yeah. Okay, so so from there you moved on to Lost Boys, correct?
speaker-0: I did. Yeah. I I think it was just five years at Working Man. I had reached a point where I wanted to just kind of experiment and try try something new to work with bigger teams because that was the thing about Working Man is maximum size was ten to fifteen for an individual project. Other times you I I'd be working on three projects at the same time, but each team is only three to four people. So a bit small. So I I kind of wanted to expand and grow into ⁓ you know, that bigger team dynamic, get that experience ⁓ and switch things up. So Yeah, I I ended up searching around. Work ⁓ Lost Boys was ⁓ expanding at the time. ⁓ so they were looking for to to fill lots of spots. ⁓ and I kind of ⁓ I f I feel like I I always tell my wife, I s I just snuck in at the right time. ⁓ kind of they had a door open and I'm just kind of like stepping around the corner. They didn't notice me. ⁓ and yeah, yeah, it was ⁓ a another fantastic team ⁓ that I I especially I worked on a couple different things while I was with them. ⁓ but in particular the first project I worked. ⁓ was a very ⁓ a very ⁓ close knit team. ⁓ they were always on Discord together. C like throughout the day we were always in the Discord call, eight hours. ⁓ and people would drop in and out, but you're always chatting. So a a fantastic transition from that ⁓ very in-person studio of ⁓ of working man to my first like full time remote position with Lost Boy.
speaker-1: Right, yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you. That that was a remote role. So yeah, like like you say, that transition, trying to build those bridges and be that you know, gr build that camaraderie was challenging, but it sounds like you found the right team to to do that with.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and working man, ⁓ I was with Working Man through through the COVID era. So ⁓ we were in in person for probably the first three and a half years of my time with the studio. And then we walked in one day and I saw people carrying out their computers and I was like, What? What's going on? And my my boss, ⁓ Keith, he's like, Well, grab your computer, we're all working from home for he goes, It'll probably only be a week or two. ⁓ and I'm like, Okay, I'm I two weeks working from home, I'll take it. And then that turned into a year and a half of ⁓ you know, working from home. I think we started going back into the office once or twice a week, but not not really a requirement. So we I I had made that transition to remote. ⁓ we that studio, you know, working man wasn't as used to it. So it was a growing pain type of thing. But then when we jumped to Lost Boys, they were set up as a as a remote first studio and they were ready to go. And you know, they had a really great setup with ⁓ different Discord servers for the different teams so you could interact with each other. You know, we'd have a different waiting room for all the different ⁓ teams. So there's an engineering room, a designer room, and you would just see people see people sitting in them. So you could hop in and it was just like going to someone's desk where you'd you'd ⁓ hop in and just chat with them, ask a question about a problem you were having, and then you could hop back out. So ⁓ they were they were a really great landing space for that kind of remote role.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's great. And and that I think lines up with I do I'm a firm believer that you can create the kind of communication bridges that you sort of take for granted in person remote, you just have to put the remote the work in and it sounds like Lost Boys had had kind of figured that out and and had that set up, ready to go.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. I I think they I think they knew. I I think they had an a in-house office where some people worked, ⁓ but they knew that they needed to kind of build that framework. ⁓ and and they might be one of the few studios I've known that used really leaned into Discord, ⁓ which I I find to be a phenomenal tool for co-op. ⁓ you know, Slack and Teams and all these different apps, they they're they're good for like DMing and communication or scheduled calls, but Discord kind of has this unique vibe where you just have those open call rooms where anyone can hop in. And then you can see if people are in that call room and just hop in, chat with them for a bit, or even if they're sitting in there, they can mute themselves up so you know that they're like heads down working, but they're still around. ⁓ so it it's I I think a phenomenal tool for for working remote that ⁓ more people should lean into for sure.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good point. ⁓ and so so in that transition over to Lost Boys, ⁓ you'd sort of been a a you know, designer, engineer, tech designer you've kind of done everything at at Working Man. So did you was that a similar transition at Lost Boys? Did you did your role shift at all?
speaker-0: yeah, I I jumped right into the the tech design role, ⁓ which ⁓ is one of those roles that I think every studio is different in what they mean by tech design. but luckily I think Lost Boys also had a very, very broad definition of what it was. ⁓ and it pretty much was we have a problem, let's throw a tech designer at it and see if they can solve that problem. Cause you could get your hands dirty in blueprints or code, ⁓ and then you could also make sure that whatever you're working on, whether it was a tool or an actual final product. It looked good 'cause you knew your design ethics as well. and ⁓ yeah, I I think the the transition was pretty pretty one to one. ⁓ I think ⁓ working man ⁓ built those those specific building blocks or base blocks for the that career to build on top of once I got over there because I was working on tools to help level designers. I was working on, you know, weapons and actually making sure the feel was good, getting that combat loop down. So Across the board, it was pretty much whatever I think I was the only tech designer. So whatever they needed, whatever any team needed, if it had a technical design element to it, I was the the go-to ⁓ for for the project I was on. So it was really exciting. And because of that, it had that huge range of problems where one day you're working on a gun and making it feel good. And the next it's like a level designer's having a problem with, I need to spawn 300 of these elements and place them, but the tool kind of sucks to do it. Can you come up with another solution versus hey, here's a here's a of vehicle we're working on and and it is running sideways rather than forward. How do we what's going wrong with this? ⁓ so just a huge variety of problems that kind of is my bread and butter.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean tech designer is literally problem solver the job, isn't it, in many ways.
speaker-0: Truly, yeah. Yeah. and different studios I think it just varies on what the problems they want you to focus are. Like some are very broad and you can tackle everything. Others ⁓ are more just like tools focused. So you they just want you to work on on the tools and make sure those are usable for design. So it really varies where you go.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I I think hearing where you know, where you started, you know, your professional career kind of started, it makes complete sense that that you would be a tech designer because like you say it does blur those lines really well between engineering design, you know, sort of lots of crafts kind of overlapping them.
speaker-0: Absolutely. I I always have this, ⁓ my wife is a teacher ⁓ and I interact with a lot of students who are interested in the in ⁓ in the industry. ⁓ and it's always this weird thing where I have to describe what tech design is. ⁓ and a lot of times I start by telling students that when they make a game, you can make a smaller game by yourself. But you know, the more diverse your team is, the more they can specialize in their individual things, the more your game is gonna shine. Like if you find someone who is an expert in a combat design. they're gonna make a really cool combat loop. But if you find someone who is an expert in level design, that combat gets to take place in a level based place. So I I always tell them you you can you can be very broad, but the more you get into the industry, it's it's pays to specialize and you get to create really unique things. And then they ask what tech design is and I'm like, everything? ooh, I kind of trapped myself, didn't I? It's whatever they want, whenever they want it, ⁓ you just have to kind of solve the problem. So if that's your thing, dive into it.
speaker-1: Yes yeah. You want specialists except for when you want really good generalists.
speaker-0: Exactly. A hundred percent. And it feels like tech design, ⁓ th there are definitely some specialized tech designers, whether it's AI or UI or anything like that. But it does feel like it is the role where you kind of go to if you want someone who can just do whatever you need at the time. Especially ⁓ the smaller the studio, I think the more that stands.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can relate to that a lot, I think, as a you know, as a creative designer that is I'm not as technical as you, but is technical, then I feel like yeah, you do end up being that kind of jack of all trades, like, hey, I I kind of understand a lot of these things, so I can jump in and help, I can offer suggestions. It's a fun role if you can kind of if you can carry it off. ⁓ so and yeah, and it sounds like Lost Boys really lent into that for you, which is which is really cool. ⁓ so you were at Lost Boys for ⁓ about a year and a half. How did that role transition ⁓ you know, from that into into Zoss?
speaker-0: Sure, sure. ⁓ yeah. I ⁓ spent ⁓ yeah, I was there about a year and a half, I think, at at Lost Boys. ⁓ unfortunately, ⁓ they were part of the Embracer ⁓ cascade of mergers. ⁓ so ⁓ we ended up cutting quite a few of the projects and unfortunately a a decent amount of the team, I think almost two hundred of us ended up getting let go. ⁓ which happens ⁓ in the industry quite quite a lot, especially these days. So it's I think that's a familiar, familiar tune for a lot of us. ⁓ but ⁓ They they were really great. They they supported us in the transition, tried to help us with like career services and things like that. ⁓ and I ended up ⁓ interviewing at a couple different places, ⁓ but ended up ⁓ meeting with ⁓ the tech design team at Zoss ⁓ and interviewed with them, did my first panel interview, which I had never done before, and I think it was six interviews ⁓ within six hours in one day. So it was quite the marathon. ⁓ but it went great. It ⁓ the team was was really good. They, you know, kind of ⁓ live that vibe of like solving whatever problem comes their way. But but Zoss was much more specialized. So ⁓ I ended up focusing on ⁓ a specific path of like movement or character work ⁓ in the tech design space. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. And and and talk to me about that that shift from from interviewing. It sounds like the you know, like you said, the two previous jobs, the first one had been ⁓ you know, ⁓ the easiest interview you could ever have, it sounds like in many ways. It was, yeah. Yeah. And the Lost Boys, I guess, was a remote interview like the Zoss one, but relatively you know, relatively w you know, relatively con contained, I guess, overall. But the Zoss one was a full panel. So how was that? How did that go for you? How was that experience like?
speaker-0: Nerve wracking ⁓ to a degree. ⁓ I think if there's if there's one thing I I think I've realized over the years, I'm good at just chatting with people. ⁓ so ⁓ to a degree, I I when I used to do more engineering focused interviews, so especially that transition from ⁓ working man to lost boys, I had kind of I had a very broad scope of what I was willing to jump into. I had a lot of engineering background with programming, so that was a I was having conversations like that. And I think there's nothing more nerve-wracking than an engineering interview. ⁓ They are tough. Even if you have a 20 years' experience, you get in there and you're like, I don't know anything. I don't remember anything. Have I done this work? I'm I'm an imposter. ⁓ So so I I had started with those interviews and then with the the tech design and the design interviews, they're much more like there's there's still some technical elements, but you're you're explaining things, you're talking things through and I'm much more comfortable in that space. So So while there is a element of ⁓ nerves, I think, a lot of times ⁓ when I approach ⁓ a interview, ⁓ my goal is to just get people off topic. If if I can successfully get someone off topic, ⁓ then I feel like I've I've done well because that means they they were willing to just chat. So the the example I always use is ⁓ a friend of mine, Jeff, was ⁓ he was interviewing me for Lost Boys, ⁓ and he had his background as one of his ⁓ carnivorous plants, like a Venus flytrap thing. And I think we spent 15 minutes of our 35 minute conversation talking about Venus flytraps. ⁓ and I had a I had callback like immediately after that. So so I I the nerves have definitely died down over the years. They're never gone. ⁓ but you know, they feel more like conversations. But a tech like a tech panel interview throws all that out the window because you are you're answering real questions like hard questions or problems that the team is trying to solve at the time and they want to see if you have a unique perspective. And then it's five hours of that throughout the day. And it is it's a lot, you know, it wears you down, especially to get to the last one. I think the last one was with the tech director, Cliff, ⁓ who's phenomenal. But you by that point your brain is like soup, and he's asking some some decent questions, and you're like, you're like your eyes twitching a little bit, and you're trying to like make sure you're still coherent. So it it was it it was a huge ramp up. I think every interview I've had since leaving college, every time, like group of interviews. get harder. They they they just get more ⁓ substantial, I think would be the better term rather than harder. There's there's more to prove, more to talk about, more to like discuss every time you you get back into the interview pool.
speaker-1: Yeah, and and yeah, of course the evo the evolution of the technology, the evolution of, you know, languages or you know, whatever of it depending on that gap. Yeah, I guess I've never thought I mean I've always been terrified of engineering interviews. I think I would fail. I remember once I went to a studio and they thought I was interviewing for an engineer, and the first person that came in asked me questions and I just sort of blinked at them and went, A are you interviewing the right person? 'Cause they were asking me I was like, I don't that's engineer. I don't know that. ⁓ but you
speaker-0: I think that I think that response is also the response you get, even if you're in the right interview. Every time I've gotten into an engineering interview, they'll ask me something simple like what's a class in C sharp? And I'm like, I've never heard of a class. What are you talking about? I'm I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna let myself out. ⁓ they they just they're always nerve wracking.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can imagine. And I would imagine in the tech design role there's a chance. I I I like I think designer roles designer interviews tend to be a little bit more about personality, right? Who you are as a person, and a little bit of creative riffing, hopefully, right? Can you design? Do you know the basics? Can you get people excited about stuff? I would imagine and obviously engineering does ⁓ the feel like the opposite end, they're like hard skills, right? You've got to be a yes, it's personality, of course, but a lot of it is hard skills, do you have the chops to, you know, to actually engine you know, be an engineer here? I would imagine tech design could almost be both, which is
speaker-0: And you never know which it's gonna be. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, especially you get into a panel interview, you're always like, I have no idea if they're gonna ask me hard questions. Like ⁓ I I you know, I think they'd kind of divided those those panel interviews between like different departments ⁓ as Zoss. So you you kind of bounce between, I know I'm gonna talk to two engineers, but how much do they expect me to know about this? ⁓ I've had ⁓ interviews more recently that are ⁓ way more technically inclined when you get into those engineering interviews where they want to know that you can you can speak their language, that you can interact and, you know, pick up the ball if you need to on more simple, like you know, engineering solutions so that the engineering team doesn't need to get into it. So but you never know what you're gonna get. It's always kind of a grab bag. ⁓ and and ⁓ where sometimes you do get those designer questions, which I I'm not saying are easier, but it's more of like it's a process thing. Like they want to know how your brain thinks, how you work, how you approach things and how how well you can communicate those. versus you get into those interview in engineering questions and you're like, they want specific solutions. There's a right answer here that you need to give and you're like, ⁓ no, brain just shuts down.
speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, I can imagine that's terrifying. And and have you found kind of over your time as a tech designer, have you found that threshold for the level of engineering that you're that you need to to change, to have gone up, gone down? Like you say, is it kind of studio specific? Is it time specific? Like have you experienced any of that?
speaker-0: Yeah, it it really is studios ⁓ specific. And and obviously the role that you're going for, like, you know, I I fall ⁓ pretty fairly into the senior tech designer role right now, but I've had interviews for like principal roles, ⁓ trying to you know just move up that ladder a little bit. And they they do get more complicated where they want to make sure you know that process. ⁓ but yeah, like I like we said, some studios really want you to be able to code and to be able to jump in and and do some C work if you need to. Simpler stuff than an engineer, but they want to make sure you can do both. ⁓ versus other studios don't want you to touch code at all. They might want you to jump into blueprints and Unreal, but they more want you to be able to communicate. So if we come up with a design, they want to make sure you can write up a a technical design doc on what we need from engineering, but they don't actually want you to do anything. You just need to understand the process. So in those the the questions become much more like like a design pr approach where it's like approach of thought, how you how you solve the problem, how you communicate that problem from ⁓ you know, design to engineering and then back once whatever it is has been worked on. ⁓ so it it really depends on the studio. I think, you know, ⁓ in tech design, each r each interview is is very unique. There's no there's no real duplicating. You can't have a cheat sheet of questions about like this is my this is my canned answer to this problem or this typical solution. Like what's your greatest strength? every everyone is very specifically catered to what they want out of their tech designer in the role. So the questions tend to be quite unique.
speaker-1: Yeah, and and in the like you mentioned the the Zos, the Xenemex Online Studios role that was more player mechanics focused, ⁓ more specialized. Have you found kind of an area across your your your time so far, have you found a particular area of of of sort of this tech design role where you're more drawn to a specialty? Is there a particular specialty that sort of resonated with you more than another one?
speaker-0: ⁓ I don't I don't think so, honestly. ⁓ I think ⁓ and it it's always again one of those interview questions when people ask, like, where what do you enjoy working on the most? And I'm always like nothing specific. I just you gotta give me good problems. And and games d never runs out of good problems. No no game, even a shipped game that's been out for ten years, ⁓ like ESO at Zoss, like it's always got problems. There's always things to solve. ⁓ so that's always my question, is I don't feel the need to specialize or to have a specific area of problem solving, whether it's tools or whether it's ⁓ you know, working on an actual gameplay mechanic, they kind of have the same feel where someone's going to use this. Either a designer is going to use that tool or a player is going to play with that mechanic. And so you're still kind of filling that same role of of ⁓ of satisfying some end user. So the problem is just in a different space, but it it's it is always the problem itself that it draws me the most.
speaker-1: Interesting. And so that that focus on problem solving, y I mean it sounds like that's you know, s is present at the genesis of your career in many ways, right? That's always been a part of you. But it is that I I c side by slightly, I can relate very much to I kinda don't care what I'm working on, I just enjoy the process of of doing what I do, right? Like I relate to that a lot and I do think that is can be a really difficult answer to give at an interview because people could be like, ⁓ you're just totally non committal or like, No, like I just love making the stuff, right? That's where the fun is. But but for you, is that does that stem from what you've learned in your career or does that stem does that correlate to who you are as a person?
speaker-0: Ooh, good good question. ⁓ I think it's a combination. I think I think ⁓ when we graduate from college and we're working, you know, and we're trying to get into the game industry, I think we all have specific games that we want to work on. Like I'm a big Elder Scrolls fan. If someone came to me and I had the opportunity to work on an Elder Scrolls game, sold. That's a that's a career peak for me. ⁓ but you realize that when you're getting into the street, that's not those you don't get to make those choices. You you want to find the role in the industry. So you kind of reach out to any studio that has an opening, especially in the beginning. As you move on and you specialize and you and you're further in your industry your career, you get to pick and choose a little bit more and and kind of define the role. But I think early on, especially at Work and Man, you those aren't games that I would play. A lot of them were for kids. They were for, you know, specific specific sol ⁓ areas or or demos for people that ⁓ you know want to play these types of games. So they weren't for me or anything I would play. So you kind of push that part to the side where you you're like, I'm not gonna play this game, but it's still a a game that I'm making. I need to be, I need to care about this game because someone's gonna play it. Like it's I'm not its target demographic, but ⁓ these kids are gonna really enjoy it. I have nieces and nephews who have played my games I've made. And there's nothing better than when they get really excited to tell me about, ⁓ we found your game and we were playing it on the computer. And I'm like, that's great. So so I I guess for me there's there's that combination of you know, my career has kind of shown me that you don't get to focus on just the games you like. You gotta you gotta focus on the games that your audience likes. But at the same time, I think I it is a very much a personal ⁓ personality thing where I just like solving problems. You know, I I'm I'm big into woodworking. I'm big into, you know, housework. I'm big into like ⁓ all kinds of things that just require very unique solutions. And solving the problem is just ⁓ I think the enjoyment I get out of it. So it it's a good combination of both, where the career has been shaped by the fact that I'm not targeting a specific type of game, but I can do that because I still enjoy everything I work on as long as it's challenging.
speaker-1: Yeah, interesting. So the the problem solver is is Zane and sort of where you focus it has been the career, it sounds like. Yeah. And and where does that problem solving originate from? You know, where do you think is that is that from in your DNA, right? Is that something is it could you point to an area where you feel like that problem solving really, really showed itself and became, you know, who you are?
speaker-0: A hundred percent. ⁓ and it it's my dad. ⁓ my dad is ⁓ a a do-it-yourself kind of guy, to the point where literally ⁓ anything he wants thinks he can do or anything he wants to do, he thinks he can do it and will do it. ⁓ and I I think he kind of instilled in my brothers and I that ⁓ the only thing that stops you from solving a problem or coming up with a solution is yourself. If you don't think you have the confidence to do it, or you if you don't think you have the knowledge to do it and you don't have that confidence. then there's nothing to kind of nothing to work with. You don't have that starter spark to get things rolling. So but if you approach a problem you're like, I can solve this, I can figure this out, ⁓ then you you will. You'll you'll at least have the confidence to keep moving forward. ⁓ for him, that's he's a much more hands-on worker. He he works with cars and, you know, construction and electronics and all kinds of stuff. He's a very hands-on guy. ⁓ and for me that turned into, you know, ⁓ especially programming when I first got into college. Like you just you approach, you're like, I can solve this. It might take time, but it's not like this is beyond what I can do. ⁓ and I think that carries into every part of my life. ⁓ in ⁓ you know, as far as traveling or meeting people or, you know, kind of putting yourself out there. You just gotta have that kind of confidence to kick kick the ball rolling and you go from there. And I I think that's where that problem solving comes from. There's never a a problem that's going to stress me out because there's a solution somewhere. I just need to find it and dedicate a little time, but it it all starts with confidence, ⁓ in knowing that you can. ⁓ and he I I very much credit him with ⁓ kind of instilling that that in all of us as kids.
speaker-1: I love that. And when you combine that with what you were saying about working man being, you know, a cauldron that kind of, you know, ⁓ that the a a forge that fired you if you like, that seems like a a a wicked combination to make you a really powerful developer.
speaker-0: It was very fortuitous, I think. Like, you know, ⁓ when I was a workman, we worked on like I worked on a a local company that did AR glasses. ⁓ and I developed a game for AR glasses. I was like a a miner, like you ⁓ you build a mining colony and it's just ki it's kinda like a cookie clicker thing. So, you know, for that to a Barbie game to, you know, crypto, like we just it was ⁓ we were all over the board just working with whoever and I think those two things really combined into setting up a good foundation for the rest of the career that I've had.
speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. And you've mentioned, you know, AR there. I know, you know, across your career you've worked on sort of VR and AR, which again have very unique problems. So I'm guessing those were very interesting areas to work in as well.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And especially when I started working in VR back in college, it was pretty new. They had the Vive and the original Oculus, but the space was still relatively unexplored. When we started, it wasn't even common knowledge that you should have like a frame of ⁓ reference if you're moving the player. So like like being in a vehicle is gonna make you less motion sickness or less motion sick because you can see the frame of the vehicle around you, versus if I'm just grabbing a player and moving them through the sky in VR, there's no frame of there's there's no grounding element. So We had to s discover all of that stuff, you know, when we were making these games. And we made a lot of mistakes when we were making those games that we know we know better now. But, you know, you're kind of on that ground floor of building what this is. ⁓ and with the AR goggles, those don't even have a platform for building or developing on. So you had to do like raw Android apps from from from scratch in order to make anything show up on them. So it just across the board there was so many different ⁓ solutions we had to approach.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's f to me feels like a big reason why VR and AR has kind of at least been moderately successful this time around, 'cause it feels like, you know, people like yourself have been so drawn to but this is a whole new problem set that we have to solve and we've got such technology that we can build our own games, we can build our own engines, we can build our own tech, we can solve them quickly or try and solve them quickly, which has sort of led to a feels like it's led to a lot more software and a lot more forward progress than maybe we've had before.
speaker-0: Absolutely. I I think ⁓ you know, and we've got new VR headsets coming out all the time. Steam just announced their new one. ⁓ and ⁓ AR I think is ⁓ personally it's a space where I think we have enormous potential. I think VR is one of those things where it lends itself very well to games, but ⁓ you still have to put that headset on and you're immersed in this other world versus an AR headset. You can just put that game into the real world. You can have Mario coins when you're running down the street and you're still interacting with the real world, but you kind of build ⁓ a game on top of it. So both fascinating spaces, but I I'm very excited to see AR kind of flourish into something larger.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's cool. ⁓ I I want to ask you a b ⁓ a very specific question about a very specific time at Zos that I think relates to the challenge of being a developer, kind of joining a team. And so so when you joined Zos, you know, working as a tech designer on the player mechanics, ⁓ you came into a space that was owned by another very technical designer and That's quite challenging, right? It's quite challenging to sort of come in and try and sort of carve your own piece out of that and not and I think you did it you and you and that designer in question, Cole, did a fantastic job of kind of figuring that space. Talk to me about what that was like to kind of join a team that was already rolling and to sort of find carve your own niche.
speaker-0: ⁓ it was a very unique ⁓ not problem, but a very unique situation to find yourself in because you're right. ⁓ Cole, ⁓ the designer who was on there, ⁓ was technically technically not a technical designer. ⁓ he was a a senior designer, very ⁓ had a level design background and everything, but he's so technical. He had been on the project for so long, ⁓ that he knows how everything works. He's the one who set up everything in the technical space ahead of time. ⁓ So it it was quite a ⁓ there was a bit of a conflict on that front, like a very friendly conflict, trying to figure out where we divide that line. And I and I'd I'd say even for the first year of working together, there was still a bit of a gray area where we had specific things that we knew we were the person for. If it's a tools thing, we know I'm doing that. If if it's like a ⁓ level design feedback or something like that, that's very much coal for those movement metrics and things. But Then there's all that gray area in between like who responds when someone asks a question. Even if it's slightly technical, Cole still knows all that stuff. But do I respond first? Am I stepping on Cole's toes if I respond first? So it it took us a while to figure that out. And I I think in the end we just sat down and we had a conversation and we just made a doc. And we're like, here are all the things that are specifically in your category, and here are all the things that are specifically in mine. If anyone asks a question on those, we are going to be the person who responds. And then we know. We're not stepping on someone else's toes. But then we still had that middle column where it's like, here's all of our gray area stuff where we both know just as much as the other person about this. So whoever gets to it first or answers a question or has this approach, we're not stepping on toes. We are just putting our best foot forward, responding as quick as we can. ⁓ and I think once we laid out that dock of like just to solidify in both of our minds what to do or how to how to respond, ⁓ it made things so much easier. We had a clear framework to go off of. We knew we weren't kind of I was always concerned about stepping on Cole's toes because he had been the face of our team for so long before I got there. ⁓ that I never wanted to be like, ⁓ I'm gonna bat Cole aside here. I'm gonna take the limelight, I'm gonna answer these questions. So ⁓ it just, you know, even if it was never like an actual personality conflict, because I think Cole is one of my favorite people I've ever worked with, ⁓ and one of the nicest people too, like just such a good guy. ⁓ you still wanted to ⁓ you know, avoid those kind of ⁓ Unintentional confrontations of like, ⁓ Cole was gonna answer this. I stepped, I stepped in front of him in line. So having that framework, I think, helped us a ton. But it it took a while to get there. And I think it was a problem neither of us had really run into before because I think ⁓ our roles were also very broadly defined. We weren't, we weren't given specific things. I think ⁓ for Zoss, tech designers are tools designers ⁓ versus my role. on the team was not. I w I I helped with the tool design, but usually I would hand it off to another tech designer. So it meant I was a very technical person focused on our specific area. ⁓ but so was Cole. So kind of there was no defined line between us that we had to kind of figure out on our own. ⁓ but I think after after that that meeting we had, everything kind of smoothed out, I think really, really well.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I I ⁓ I I think as generalists, which I think in many ways both you and ⁓ Zayn you U Zayn and and Cole and I think tech designers can be, ⁓ I think navigating that space speaks to a lot of who you both are as people, right? Because you know, I it's very easy for someone to come into that role and go and grab a load of stuff and go, This is mine, I'm doing this now, you know, and and ruffle feathers and Yeah, I think that that's that's a difficult challenge on these larger teams, especially if you come from smaller spaces where you are more wearing many hats and like whoever gets to it just does it because we're you know, that's kind of where we are. Exactly, yeah. Navigating that space in a large team and and and that transition from doing that to a large team is really tough and I think you guys did a phenomenal job. ⁓ 'cause it's a hard thing to do.
speaker-0: ⁓ a finger in every pot. Yeah. I I think the further you move up that ladder, especially into a role like you have, where you know, you are you're you're a director, you're kind of if you're stepping into a new studio, you you have all these people you're looking over. But even even at a lower level, when you start to move from like a junior to a mid to a senior to a principal, the further up that ladder you go when you're brought into a pre existing team, there's more there is an element of you you wanna be able to sh grab what you need to work on and work on it. But there's other people who either have more seniority or if they're lower than you, you don't want to make them feel like you're taking away their lunch, this thing they're super excited for. So it's always it's always a process trying to integrate yourself into a team ⁓ and and make sure things go smooth. ⁓ and I imagine that gets significantly more difficult the further up that ladder you go.
speaker-1: think it can but I think it's always tough right wherever you are right to find your place to carve out your niche and also if you're that way inclined not piss a load of people off right like Yes some people do come in with a size twelves and that's what they do, right? But I think you know I think some people want to be the most effective they can be without upsetting a load of people and you know, I think I think it's important. It's a it's a tough challenge. ⁓
speaker-0: Yep, which is a good way to be inclined.
speaker-1: Okay, as we sort of start to wind this down, a couple of questions I'd love to zero in on. ⁓ how has making games changed you as a gamer?
speaker-0: Ooh, it it ⁓ opens your eyes to a lot of things, I think. ⁓ I tend to play games with a lot of friends and they get very annoyed when I'm like, ⁓ this is why this is happening. Mm, I wish they had done this differently. ⁓ it makes you very analytical. ⁓ and I think you have to almost intentionally turn that part of your brain off. ⁓ which is why I never game on my computer because I'm at my computer all day working on games. So I need to come almost like dissociate a little bit and I'm I'm a console gamer because I can It's a whole different space. My mentality is different when I'm in my living room. ⁓ but it's it's that analytical side you kind of have to turn off ⁓ to fully enjoy the game, I think.
speaker-1: That's interesting. I'm very similar. I find I get very uncomfortable sitting playing games on my work PC, not because I don't want to, just 'cause I'm like, that doesn't feel like my gaming space. That feels like my working space. So interesting you have kind of a similar i you if you separate yourself, then you can separate your focus.
speaker-0: Yeah, yep. I I can't work. ⁓ you're at your computer all day, you know, playing games. It doesn't feel relaxing really to to stay at your work computer and play games. So I need to ⁓ I need to go down and and sit on my console. It's I'm very excited for the Steam Machine because it means I can take all my computer games with me down to my TV. ⁓ so yeah, ⁓ that's I I have a hard line between the two. My friends don't understand why I don't play PC games at my computer a lot. ⁓ and I have to explain this to them ⁓ rather frequently.
speaker-1: Got it. That makes sense. ⁓ and how has being a game developer changed you as a human?
speaker-0: ⁓ I think I think in game design we are are very lucky in the type of role we have. ⁓ because even if it's not the genre we like ⁓ or or specifically play ourselves, it's still a very creative and ⁓ I wanna say happy industry. We are working on entertainment, ⁓ versus, you know, working in education or anything. Like there ⁓ there's an element to what we do that is difficult work, but it is fun work. And I think that ⁓ if anything only bolsters your ⁓ create creative elements in the rest of your life, but also kind of a happiness element. We don't need to ⁓ you know, ⁓ there's a there's turmoil in our industry, but day to day the work can be stressful, but we know we're working on something fun and we know we're working on something that a l a lot of people will enjoy. ⁓ and I think that's just an overall peace of mind that you get ⁓ from this career that you might not get in a lot of other careers. Not that those aren't rewarding in their own way, but I I think it's a very different experience to work in in the creative industries.
speaker-1: Interesting. So it kind of the the the fun nature of, you know, to use that word, the fun nature of it kind of gives you peace, right? Gives you happiness in y yeah, you know, what you're doing is fun and therefore it it it feeds back into you as your your everyday life as hey, this is this is a fun role, fun job.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's almost like a sense of wellness, I think. You're still challenging yourself yourself, still like expanding your mind and your creative talents and things, but you're doing so in a space where, you know, I think in my 10 year career almost, I've only had like one coworker that I really had any kind of confrontation with or like, you know, butted heads with. For the most part, the our our our career or our industry is filled with people who are very open and and accepting and creative and just pleasant people to be around. And I think that it just it speaks to an element of wellness that comes with working in this industry. There are unwell elements. Getting laid off is hard for everybody and and that has become more and more a part of our industry. But I think when you have that role, it is there's something very unique and special about it.
speaker-1: Yeah, agreed. ⁓ and last question. You mentioned, you know, siblings that were gamers, you mentioned you, your dad that was very much a problem solver. Like how does your family relate to your your career, your profession?
speaker-0: I don't know that they do at all. Neither of my parents are gamers. My dad is, I would say, an anti-gamer. He does not understand gaming. ⁓ but ⁓ they have never kind of connected with ⁓ the game industry as a whole. I think they're very excited. ⁓ but I will say that when I ⁓ initially told them that I was dropping electrical engineering to go into game design, they were a little concerned. ⁓ they didn't think that was a real they didn't know that that was a real career. They they supported me very much, but ⁓ I don't think games have ever been a thing that they kind of ⁓ connect with ⁓ super directly, to the point where when they people ask them what I do, they're just like games. I we don't know how to describe what he does. ⁓ but ⁓ they're very, very supportive. But ⁓ they ⁓ there's kind of that that wall between, you know, the the type of experience they had, the type of lives they had and, you know, those of people who work in the game industry or even play games. ⁓ my brothers though, very excited. ⁓ they love whatever free stuff I can pass along to them. ⁓ they they are all about it. ⁓ and ⁓ they play a lot of the games. I'll force them to play any game that I've worked on. ⁓ or their kids. If I have a niece or a nephew who is in that age bracket for a game I've made, I will force them to play it. ⁓ same for anybody's I have. ⁓ anything that I I get published, they get a free copy of it or I'm I force them to play it. ⁓ so you know, I'm kind of that kind of that balance. The younger generation of my family and friends, very much on board and connected. My parents, supportive, but from afar.
speaker-1: And then your wife, is she does she play games? You mentioned she's in education. Does you know, does she relate
speaker-0: She plays when I can convince her to. ⁓ she used to play some Call of Duty and things like that. But nowadays we do like Pico Park or those kind of friendly ⁓ family not family games, but like problem solving. We do a lot of ⁓ overcooked and overcooked too, ⁓ where we just sit on the couch and yell at each other and scream chef at each other a lot. ⁓ so those are the type of games she gets into where they're ⁓ very much like myself, they're social games or Mario Party, those kind of things. So that's kind of her sphere of gaming, but nothing too like No triple A games or any any competitive stuff.
speaker-1: Got it. Okay. Well, thank you, Zone. I appreciate your time. It's good to get to know you. You know, we worked together for a while, but these conversations always help me understand and often make me go, ⁓ that explains so much about you know the experience. ⁓ yeah, thank you for your time.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. Yay.
speaker-1: That is the remastered episode of Dev to Dev season one episode thirteen with Zane Draper. Hope you enjoyed listening to it for the first time or again as much as I did. Check out another, I think another remastered episode next week, and then I've got one more theme lined up, I think, before the end of the summer and the end of this hiatus, and we kick off season three with the first episode that I'm really excited about you all hearing the season three. In the meantime, yes, as mentioned, please like and share as you can. Please look out for me on the Corner of Story and Game podcast as well as the Level Design Lobby podcast. I'm going to be on those pretty soon. And I'm excited about those conversations. They've been really fun. Please, if you could leave a review, that really helps. I'd really appreciate it. It's been a while since I asked that, but please, it always helps to get a review. Definitely helps with discoverability, as I've mentioned, is always my the hardest challenge with the podcasts. So thank you to everyone that listens. Please continue to do so, and I will catch you on the next one.
