Special Topic: Surviving (and Thriving?) in a PhD/Research Training While Raising Young Kids

WEBVTT
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What is Demystifying Research? Hosted by me, Kelly Harris,
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and me, Katherine Hoyt. Demystifying Research is a space where
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we dialogue on training, careers, and all things research.
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Everything from, is research right for me, to thinking about
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applications, mentorship, which research degree is right for
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me, handling failure and rejection, CVs versus resumes,
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and funding. This is a space where we engage in
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discussions around the questions we all have or or have had
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when considering a career in research and science. As clinician
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scientists, we seek to answer questions and address issues that aren't clearly
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addressed in more formal spaces, things that weren't addressed in our clinical
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training, questions that we may not know how or where to begin to seek answers.
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This is not a space only for scientists and researchers, but for anyone
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who may be interested in science and research. We're so glad you've joined us.
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Let's dive in. Well,
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thank you all for joining us back for our special guest topic
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today. We have been gone for a little while,
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and so this is back by request. We are going to have a conversation
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today about surviving, thriving, managing the
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rest of life while you manage your research training.
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So we know that relationships, parenting,
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beginning to start a family, managing a family with multiple children,
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all of these things are really difficult
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in any circumstance, but then maybe especially difficult when
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you're learning new things and learning a whole nother career
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as you pursue your research training. So Kelly and I today are
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welcoming Dr. Jessica Kersey to talk about
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her experience being a parent and a spouse with a
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spouse away while you were beginning and entering
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your research career. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and
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why you're joining us today? Sure. I'm an
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OT and researcher at Washington University
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in St. Louis. I'm an assistant professor. I started— I did my
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PhD at the University of Pittsburgh,
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2017 to 2021,
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during which time I had my first child in 2019,
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right before the pandemic hit. Um, and then had
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my second child when I did my postdoctoral fellowship in
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Chicago at UIC in 2022,
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and then started my first faculty position in 2023,
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where I've been since. My children are now 4 and 7.
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Um, and I have a wonderful supportive spouse
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named Sean, who I have been married to for a long time. Oh, thanks,
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Jess. Um, is it okay if I call you Jess, or do you prefer Dr.
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Please? Yes. Okay, just wanted to check whatever your preference was
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for recording purposes.
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Well, I guess I'll just get started. Maybe Kelly, or do
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you prefer Dr. Harris or Kelly today? Oh my gosh, no, just Kelly.
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Well, I don't know, I thought I'd ask again.
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We've already done our intros, but do you want to share a little bit about
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your pathway? I'll just share, like,
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I won't share my research intro piece, but I will share that
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that I'm here both like in a co-host and guest capacity because I too had
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young children during my PhD and in my
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postdoc and early career years. And I think
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I— so I had a child just before starting my PhD, and I had a
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5-year-old at the time, or he was maybe 4 and a half or 5.
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And so I had young children throughout my PhD and then,
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you know, adolescents during my early career. I have
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my first child about to go to college, so he's 18 now, and my youngest
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is 14 heading to high school.
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So I'll be asking questions and speaking to the topic myself.
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Well, I was gonna say, I'm sure that's keeping you busy.
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I know it is, actually. I shouldn't say I guess. I know it is.
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Yeah. Fun times. Yeah.
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So the first thing that that I was gonna pose
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to you, Jess, that I think nobody actually fully
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prepared me for, even though I tried. I tried.
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I was previously married when I started my
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PhD. And I knew it would
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be hard, but I didn't know quite exactly how it would be
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hard and how to prepare my spouse and my family for what
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what that experience would be like. Why, why do
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you think parenting during a PhD is like uniquely challenging
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or different than parenting while working?
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So I will gladly try to answer that one.
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I have always been a person who takes on many
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things, have always felt like I am like limitless in what
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I can take on and do. Uh, before starting my PhD,
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I worked full-time in an inpatient rehab facility and
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also ran my own business on the side and also had a podcast on the
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side and also volunteered with our state OT association and had hobbies
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and a social life. And I was busy from way too early in the
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morning until way too late at night, but I was willing to make some
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sacrifices and do all of those things because they gave me a lot of satisfaction
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and I was in control of my time. And could adjust
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and prioritize where I needed to, um, with few other
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influencing factors. Um, I had a predictable work schedule,
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um, somewhat predictable, uh, private practice time,
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had some flexibility about when I chose to volunteer or do other activities.
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Uh, when there are children involved, that is obviously a very different situation,
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especially when they are very young and they are dependent on you at all times.
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And we never know when Daycare might close and suddenly
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we need to drop everything to provide all-day childcare.
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And also just, it just completely shifts the
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focus of priorities, this, the focus on time and
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where we are able to have flexibility in our lives,
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which feels like something that is really important during a PhD program.
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And to have a limit on that flexibility, I think, is part of what makes
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it really hard. On top of that is like the cognitive and
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emotional components.
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Parenting takes a lot of cognitive energy,
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which is really exhausting. And that leaves, for me at least,
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it felt like it left far less cognitive energy
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to devote to training or other aspects of life.
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Before having kids, my PhD mentor
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at Pitt, Beth Skidmore, told me from the day I started, like,
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you have got to stop all of these extra things that you're doing and you
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need to be a lot more focused. And I was like, you don't know me.
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I have been doing this my whole life. I can do this. I can do
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all these things and it's going to be fine. And it really did take until
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I had a kid for me to be like, oh, this is why. And it's
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because I actually have been diverting a lot of my cognitive effort elsewhere.
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And now I don't have that capacity. And then also,
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you know, having especially like little babies, there's just such
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an emotional component of like feeling like you need
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to be a really good parent and feeling like you need to be there and
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do a good job. This little life is like in your hands.
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And every, you know, misstep feels like I'm failing.
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And that's a hard, I think, thing to deal with emotionally when
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we are already in a position where in a PhD program, maybe we
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feel like we are failing every day. And then to have that outside of work
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also is— it is hard.
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I feel like that is actually like a huge thing. Like, I have been reflecting
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on that recently, like when you are learning or doing something new or
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something that is stretching
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your brain in ways that you haven't before, it feels scary.
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And it— I don't know how else to say it, but it like makes
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me feel insecure and like a little stupid and a little like
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vulnerable. Like in each of those steps
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of PhD, postdoc, you know, now I'm early career, like applying
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for an R01, and I feel like,
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and Like, obviously, either of you fix
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what I'm saying or contradict me. But like, when you're
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busy, even if you're busy in other ways, it takes away from
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that time to be creative. And I do think research,
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besides being a cognitive load and doing a PhD being a cognitive
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load, you're doing something inherently novel.
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And so it requires creativity, and it's hard to be creative if you're tired.
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Or distracted? Yeah, I think,
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I think that, and I think it also like,
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I don't know, for me, having kids upped the pressure of the work because it
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almost becomes even more important. So like I do pediatric research and so
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I think about them a lot when I am doing work. So I think there's
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like all of those pieces. The other thing I was
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thinking about, which kind of ties in to the point that you're making
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about like the cognitive load, Um, an emotional component,
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but I think there's like logistical challenges, right? So I, similar to
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you, Jess, um, and I don't know if I actually knew this,
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that we shared this in common before having this conversation, but like, I also
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was like a say no to nothing, do everything. Like there's no limits to what
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I can do kind of person before. And I'm learning that that's A, unhealthy for
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me and B, like unsustainable. But I had a private practice.
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I was full-time private practice. Um, so I had like an actual
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brick-and-mortar clinic, and then I also did like community-based work
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before going into my PhD. And I was like, oh, I can do both of
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these things at the same time. Like, I can keep this practice going, like this
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actual physical space with employees. Like, I can— it's fine. Um,
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and then also have young children. And so that was a complication.
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But the other side of that is my husband is also self-employed.
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And when I started school at the— when I started my PhD,
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The program, the school, the university, not the program, required me to
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take their insurance and required but
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didn't have medication. So I had a child with asthma who needed medication every
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month. And so like the logistics of like figuring out how,
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like we had been in this, both of us self-employed, but with like a good
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system. And then you switch to this system that kind of changes those things.
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And so like there are logistical things that I think make family life difficult
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in school. Things that are rules and requirements that
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don't really consider that there are not just 18 to 22 or 25-year-old
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individuals here, but there are families who have other things
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that matter come up. So I think, like, for me, that was
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a big transition going back to school and, like, thinking about how not
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only financially, like, life can change, because also when
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I was in school, things are much better now. Probably not,
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probably not better enough, but like how much money you
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could make and how much you're technically legally supposed to work outside of your PhD
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and how much the program actually provides for like
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living. All of those things have an impact
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on how, on like your life. So I think like there's the mental and emotional
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piece, but then there's also just like the real life logistics of like
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Financial sustainability and, you know, all of those things that come into
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play. And then I think also, like, in a relationship, just building a
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different routine. And I think you talked about that some, Jess, right? Like thinking about
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how, like, this, you know, being in this PhD program then fits into
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my life in different ways. So I don't know. I think it's like
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uniquely challenging because it's all of those. It's the confluence of all of those things
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at the same time. Yeah, there's challenges
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to the PhD program above and beyond what is our typical work,
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and then there's challenges of parenting above and beyond what typical
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life has previously been. And both of those things at once is a
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hard combination. And I think that's important to just like
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acknowledge for people who feel like they're struggling, like it's valid.
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Yeah, doesn't make it easier even if it's
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valid. Correct. It doesn't make it easier, but there are ways
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that you can manage. And I think one of the things I kept reminding myself
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was like, this is temporary. So this is not,
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you know, this is the next 4 years or
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5 years, not 10 or 20.
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For either of you, I guess I'm just wondering, like you both talked
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about things that were harder. Was there anything that surprised you or that was harder
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or easier than you expected? Or was it like exactly how you thought?
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So I'll jump in
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and just— I had a lot of guilt around like
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time I spent. So I can remember when I first started my
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PhD program, A, like I wasn't, you know, I was older
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than when I had been an undergrad and like the strategies that worked for me
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then to like you know, get work done in the middle of the night only
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worked for so long. I was not like— I was no longer able to be
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up all night to do work. And so I think, um,
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when I was trying to like get a routine together, I remember very vividly
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one day after school I was trying to work after school and my daughter was
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like, why are you always in front of your computer? And I
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was like, oh, okay, shut the computer. So like I can no
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longer work in a certain time frame because this is their time and that needs
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to be cleared, right? And so I had a lot of guilt around that.
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But I think to your question about like a surprise is
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I do feel like my kids got really concrete benefits in watching me
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work and watching me manage that, that I have been able to watch them
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employ in their own schooling and in their own, you know, like drives
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and desires for life. Um, when I was trying to finish,
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I ended up writing like One of the chapters, I feel like a whole chapter
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of my dissertation over their spring break one year. And like, they were disappointed to
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not be able to go anywhere and do anything, but they were so supportive in
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ways I had not anticipated. And I think they learned, like,
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you know, I would just talk through that, talk to them about like why I'm
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doing what I'm doing and what matters. And so going through that process and like
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having those conversations with them, and then conversations we had, I remember like at graduation
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and around that whole weekend and seeing them things
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that they are doing because of what they were able to watch me
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do is quite rewarding. So I think like
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the shorter way to say it is I just feel like there are lessons for
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them that are shaping who they are as students, as learners,
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who they will be as adults, the types of things that they feel like are,
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you know, their ambition, all of those things.
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Like, that's so important to recognize, like, while parents
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may be feeling that guilt, there may actually be a flip positive
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that it's not like totally selfish. It's actually just
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a different environment where they're getting the opportunity to learn from you
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too, like, and observe good,
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like, good learning behaviors.
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Sometimes there's sacrifices.
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Yeah, and just exposure. They hear about things
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that like Yeah, as probably most scientist kids, right?
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You hear— they hear about things that they might not otherwise
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hear about because they are there.
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Do you have any surprises or like surprising easy, surprising hard things,
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Jess? I guess I would call this a surprise,
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but more so not really a surprise, but more so something that I think was
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really important for me to learn about myself. I didn't
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really know until this confluence of like personal and
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outside like really difficult things going on at the same
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time, um, is when I started
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to notice more of the things that I needed to
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do to like be productive and to,
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uh, like maintain my mental health. Like, I,
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looking back, there were certainly red flags that I ignored
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or denied, whatever denial, whatever it was. Um,
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but it was during this time
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of trying to do a dissertation with a newborn, um,
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where things started to emerge around like anxiety,
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which again, I think I always had more of and just ignored,
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and difficulties with attention. Like, I probably have ADHD that
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was never diagnosed and I just managed it. But then when there's like many demands,
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it like really reared its head and
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made me have to think really carefully about how I structure my work time and
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get things done. And so I feel like it was
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an experience for me of learning a lot about myself and what I
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need to do to be effective
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both in work and at home. Made me
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just kind of like think through some of those things more carefully than I ever
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previously had needed to, because the stakes felt, I guess,
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a bit higher. I'm just thinking about what you said,
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and I— A,
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how I guess, like, how challenging that can be, but also
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that's a, like, huge thing to learn and then be able to, like, turn that
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around into, like, To be able to like manage work better
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and life as a student. So I don't know, I just feel like that
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sounds like,
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like a lot, but like almost a wonderful
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like reflection on the ways that we grow. I think it like definitely forced
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me to mature a lot. Yeah, I think what I'm trying to say is like—
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acknowledge and accept those things. Yeah, like you take on this really hard thing
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and then grow and like in ways and learn about ourselves in ways we
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like would never have imagined, is I think what I'm trying to say.
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Yeah, I feel like a PhD is like,
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it's definitely the hardest thing I've ever done, but it wasn't the
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like classes that
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was, that was the hardest thing. I think the hardest thing is like
18:59.521 --> 19:03.352
generating. And like, so learning those things about yourself, like attention
19:03.465 --> 19:06.749
and time and stuff, particularly if you're
19:06.910 --> 19:10.638
also responsible for a small human that requires a lot of
19:11.138 --> 19:14.254
your time, is so tough. I kind of—
19:14.558 --> 19:15.250
I'm wondering,
19:17.938 --> 19:21.167
we've even done podcasts on like productivity and time management,
19:21.281 --> 19:24.834
Kelly. Like, I know we've talked about this before, and now I'm
19:25.334 --> 19:28.788
kind of chuckling to myself because there's like a bazillion websites out there that
19:29.288 --> 19:32.101
are like, do this, do that, you know, like with all the top 10 ways
19:32.150 --> 19:36.175
to use your time better. Is there any advice that has been like
19:36.950 --> 19:40.451
trash for like how to be a parent and a
19:40.951 --> 19:44.615
researcher at the same time? Or like, I don't
19:44.680 --> 19:47.743
know, is there advice that's helped? But I'm kind of curious
19:48.243 --> 19:50.338
if there's any. I don't know. I think it's kind of funny the amount of
19:50.838 --> 19:54.578
advice that exists out there. I mean,
19:55.718 --> 19:59.090
I feel like there's a lot of bad advice. I guess I just want
19:59.590 --> 20:02.879
to have a conversation. To me, what's at the root of bad
20:03.379 --> 20:06.797
advice is the assumption that what works for one person
20:07.297 --> 20:10.651
works for everybody. And so things that I see
20:11.151 --> 20:14.649
as bad advice are not necessarily— it's not necessarily bad advice for others,
20:14.681 --> 20:17.282
right? I think there's like, you know,
20:18.219 --> 20:20.952
I just, I think, and so I think this idea about like learning who you
20:21.050 --> 20:23.588
are, which is kind of what Jess was talking about and like what works for
20:24.088 --> 20:27.969
you and what doesn't, is such a key thing that
20:28.674 --> 20:31.689
I feel like, I don't know if I, I'm trying
20:32.189 --> 20:36.444
to think, I don't know that I have ever met somebody who has done a,
20:36.799 --> 20:40.753
you know, like a PhD or similar terminal degree
20:41.253 --> 20:45.306
program, MD or whatever, that hasn't said like, that hasn't been able to share
20:45.613 --> 20:47.421
what they've learned about themselves in the process. I feel like it's like part of
20:47.921 --> 20:50.180
doing something something like this.
20:51.764 --> 20:54.968
So I say I— and I think any hard thing, like people who,
20:55.113 --> 20:58.558
you know, there are other careers in which it's a similar process,
20:58.574 --> 21:01.636
right? So I think it's like knowing who you are. I feel like it forces
21:02.136 --> 21:03.958
you to know who you are, to figure out who you are, figure out what
21:03.974 --> 21:06.637
works for you, figure out how you're going to be efficient and get things done.
21:12.672 --> 21:16.431
And I like knowing that what works for one person is not necessarily— like,
21:16.480 --> 21:19.530
you have to find your own strategies. That, that to me, like, you know,
21:20.030 --> 21:21.710
the thing I used to always hear is like, Kelly, you need to write 15
21:22.210 --> 21:26.009
minutes every day. So that strategy does not work for
21:26.509 --> 21:29.370
me. Not my thing. And for the longest time, I was like, okay, I'm gonna
21:29.870 --> 21:32.650
forever fail at this if I don't, you know, do that. And there's other things
21:33.150 --> 21:35.670
like that, but that's not— it doesn't work for me. And like, once I let
21:36.170 --> 21:39.550
go of that as something that I needed to be able to do, it was
21:40.050 --> 21:43.490
fine. Um, I've turned my camera off twice because I've been interrupted by children.
21:44.176 --> 21:47.719
And like, there are people who would say like, I need
21:48.219 --> 21:50.749
to have a firmer boundary, and I do at times, but also like,
21:51.727 --> 21:54.933
I'm working remote. This— so like, I guess what I was, I was gonna actually
21:55.433 --> 21:59.566
ask you, Jess, is like, we're talking about the challenges of getting a PhD,
21:59.582 --> 22:03.397
and but like, what are the benefits of this field
22:03.430 --> 22:06.492
and being able to work a job like this that is not a
22:06.992 --> 22:10.275
9-to-5 job that requires you to be out of your house every day, all day,
22:10.339 --> 22:13.674
certain hours, clock in and out, not be able to go get your child from,
22:13.754 --> 22:17.429
you know, whatever. Um, what are the benefits that the flexibility of
22:18.264 --> 22:22.182
this career offers for parents?
22:23.001 --> 22:26.983
So honestly, this is one of the things that I find to be— the flexibility
22:27.240 --> 22:30.564
and schedules is one of the things that I find to be very difficult.
22:30.933 --> 22:34.225
I don't actually find it to be a benefit because I would find it
22:34.725 --> 22:38.576
much easier to have a 9-to-5 job and know I just am
22:39.076 --> 22:42.559
taking PTO today. To take care of my kids because someone's
22:42.640 --> 22:46.457
sick and home unexpectedly versus feeling like, well,
22:47.524 --> 22:50.716
I'm at home, I could still get some stuff done and trying to do some
22:50.765 --> 22:52.698
things while there's a sick kid in the background.
22:54.294 --> 22:55.874
I find that to be much harder.
22:57.749 --> 23:01.429
Also having the flexibility with a schedule
23:01.865 --> 23:05.723
where my husband has much less flexibility with the schedule. And so
23:05.755 --> 23:09.312
he has been incredibly supportive in a lot of ways that I can definitely,
23:09.361 --> 23:13.831
I'm sure I will touch on today. But one of the things that I've sacrificed
23:14.331 --> 23:18.165
to support him is that because his work schedule is a lot less flexible,
23:18.359 --> 23:21.613
he's in meetings most of the day with people who are depending on him to
23:22.113 --> 23:24.890
get things moving forward, is when there is a sick kid,
23:25.344 --> 23:28.005
I'm the one who deals with it because it's easier for me to flex my
23:28.505 --> 23:33.854
time. And that's one of the things that's—
23:34.227 --> 23:36.532
I guess the benefit of that is that I can do that for him.
23:38.755 --> 23:42.991
I can be a good supportive partner in that way, even though
23:43.969 --> 23:48.776
it is not my favorite thing, because I
23:48.808 --> 23:52.415
mentioned I had to learn about like how to be
23:52.431 --> 23:56.285
efficient with how I work and come up
23:56.785 --> 23:59.515
with strategies that were specific to the way that I need to work.
24:00.241 --> 24:03.965
And that for me is being in my office. And that
24:04.013 --> 24:07.960
for me is like large chunks of uninterrupted time. I could
24:08.104 --> 24:11.441
also never do the 15-minute work thing because it takes me 30 minutes— like writing,
24:11.810 --> 24:14.570
it takes me like 30 minutes to like really get started. I need a large
24:14.602 --> 24:17.410
chunk of time to make writing effective for me.
24:17.971 --> 24:21.597
And so I like— my approach is— it sounds like I know
24:22.097 --> 24:25.175
it's different from Catherine's, and it sounds like it's different from Kelly's, but I love
24:25.675 --> 24:27.870
to be in my office and I love to make very good use of that
24:27.918 --> 24:30.566
time and then to like the degree possible,
24:31.048 --> 24:34.868
be done and not work outside of work.
24:36.168 --> 24:39.956
And that's a strategy that I've made, make good use
24:40.456 --> 24:43.632
of the time when I'm there, and then worry about it a lot less when
24:44.132 --> 24:47.211
I'm not there. It's how I've managed the cognitive components,
24:47.565 --> 24:51.481
the energy and fatigue and emotion
24:51.497 --> 24:53.969
components and balancing my time with my family.
24:54.708 --> 24:58.431
And I know that that doesn't work for everybody. But that makes it really hard
24:58.931 --> 25:01.369
for me on those days when there is a sick kid because then I feel
25:01.869 --> 25:05.929
like I'm gone, I'm behind now. But having
25:06.025 --> 25:09.541
done that enough times, I think one of the most important things that I've
25:09.654 --> 25:13.603
done is actually like really carefully and proactively
25:14.103 --> 25:17.007
manage my schedule, which I know like when you like invited me to this,
25:17.103 --> 25:20.748
you're like, we don't want to just talk about schedules, we want like better strategies.
25:20.796 --> 25:24.071
But also like that is my number one strategy is like knowing
25:24.087 --> 25:27.989
what is coming for the next several months even. And planning far
25:28.181 --> 25:32.035
out in advance because I know that I will not do
25:32.051 --> 25:35.150
well if I have a grant due in 3 days.
25:35.888 --> 25:39.228
Because if my kid gets sick, like, that's going to be a crisis for my
25:39.357 --> 25:42.359
household to figure out how to manage. And I don't ever— like, I don't want
25:42.859 --> 25:44.687
to be in that position. So my grant is going to be done like at
25:44.720 --> 25:48.172
least a week early from when it needs to like really
25:48.672 --> 25:51.865
be done. Anything that has a due date, I am doing way in advance.
25:52.554 --> 25:56.289
So I'm looking way ahead in my schedule. I'm blocking out
25:56.789 --> 26:00.826
the highest priority tasks and the time-sensitive tasks early and prioritizing
26:00.842 --> 26:04.353
those so that I can get those done and be able to flex around
26:04.401 --> 26:07.495
some of the other things that are less time-sensitive when things do come up
26:07.995 --> 26:11.823
like illness, unexpected illness, or unexpected time away. I think
26:12.323 --> 26:15.382
I got way off topic there. What was the question? No, no, I think that
26:15.882 --> 26:19.597
was really helpful advice. So it was. I actually don't remember the
26:20.097 --> 26:23.491
question. Oh, I think I was— I do remember the question. I was saying,
26:23.779 --> 26:26.936
I was asking about like the how a PhD is different from traditional
26:26.984 --> 26:30.814
jobs, and I was framing it as a benefit
26:30.830 --> 26:33.938
and a positive. And I really appreciate that you came back like, actually,
26:33.954 --> 26:37.400
Kelly, I don't see it that way. And it's interesting,
26:37.464 --> 26:41.197
I think I would agree.
26:41.982 --> 26:46.053
So like scheduling is a big thing for me, and I schedule out a lot,
26:46.133 --> 26:49.549
but I also have learned I have to be super flexible with
26:49.581 --> 26:53.349
the schedule. Because I think, I think like I'm listening, I was listening
26:53.849 --> 26:56.316
to what you were sharing and I think there's several things in there, right?
26:56.717 --> 27:00.293
We're talking a lot about parenting, but it's hard on relationships because
27:00.886 --> 27:04.414
of what you just said, right? Like there's in your household
27:04.914 --> 27:07.830
and my household, there are 2 people with jobs with different types of schedules,
27:07.862 --> 27:10.812
different types of commitments, and balancing that I think is difficult.
27:13.207 --> 27:15.413
But I think that like,
27:17.860 --> 27:21.514
as you're— for me, as I have gone through this, so like between my
27:22.014 --> 27:25.234
PhD was largely driven by like my school schedule and when things were
27:25.734 --> 27:28.151
going to be due and like meeting those kind of deadlines and then moving into
27:28.280 --> 27:31.547
early career, it was a different type of schedule,
27:31.984 --> 27:35.720
one that I set. And I, you know, figuring out how to not be too
27:35.784 --> 27:39.086
flexible and how to set appropriate boundaries was like I feel like I
27:39.586 --> 27:42.517
had to work through that a lot. I probably still do sometimes.
27:43.258 --> 27:46.543
And thinking about, like,
27:47.352 --> 27:51.089
what is protected family time? What is protected work time? I think having those kinds
27:51.589 --> 27:54.954
of guardrails have been really helpful, even when I'm not super scheduled,
27:55.372 --> 27:58.785
is I think what I'm trying to say. Like, scheduling matters. I'm not always
27:58.817 --> 28:02.198
great with scheduling. I go through, like, spurts of really good with my schedule
28:02.698 --> 28:05.174
and then less good with my schedule. But then I think also, like, my kids'
28:05.207 --> 28:08.846
needs have changed as they have aged. And so how much
28:08.942 --> 28:12.330
I haven't— you know, an athlete who has a pretty rigorous schedule that
28:12.830 --> 28:16.184
requires travel. And so when that started happening, I was like, okay,
28:16.810 --> 28:19.941
this changes— like, this has to change how I think about things and when I
28:20.441 --> 28:23.265
work and when I, you know, who's going to be supporting her,
28:23.811 --> 28:27.086
who's, you know, staying at home, how are we managing that? And so I just
28:27.586 --> 28:31.325
think I have had to be flexible about how I think about my scheduling
28:31.598 --> 28:35.563
and what works. Over time as we've gone through these different phases of like,
28:36.520 --> 28:39.700
you know, kind of as my kids have aged, I guess I should say,
28:40.363 --> 28:44.615
and as my career needs have changed. Learning to delegate
28:45.115 --> 28:48.239
to me is a good strategy. I think not necessarily for a PhD
28:48.739 --> 28:51.805
student, but as you're moving into early career, um,
28:51.886 --> 28:55.543
we like to do everything ourselves. Well, I like to do everything myself.
28:56.127 --> 28:59.400
I have a little, little couple control issues, um,
28:59.563 --> 29:03.534
but so I had to really learn how to manage that and And let
29:04.034 --> 29:07.357
it be OK to just delegate. And to your point, Jess, walk away and not
29:07.405 --> 29:11.374
worry about it and have people on
29:11.874 --> 29:15.273
my team that I can trust to handle things. I think that was part of
29:15.773 --> 29:19.785
it. But I think the best strategy for me
29:20.285 --> 29:24.092
that helped me manage my— I was talking about the guilt side— is making sure
29:24.140 --> 29:27.644
I had protected time for family. So then how I manage my work
29:28.144 --> 29:31.413
schedule, is important and I have to do that,
29:31.478 --> 29:34.924
but also like being very clear about these are the hours that are theirs.
29:36.852 --> 29:39.598
And it's been better for my kids. It's been better for my marriage. It's about,
29:39.680 --> 29:43.372
you know, all of those things. I've learned strategies
29:43.469 --> 29:47.124
from both of you that I've used as a person that has difficulty like
29:47.624 --> 29:50.812
getting started. And then sometimes the moments when even
29:51.006 --> 29:54.025
I've scheduled to work on something, my attention may be not there,
29:54.396 --> 29:57.447
but like figuring out like how do you overcome that? Like from Jess,
29:57.479 --> 30:01.058
I've definitely learned from you like blocking. Like I block intentionally
30:01.558 --> 30:05.090
block on my calendar now. Like, I'm reviewing this paper at this time.
30:06.118 --> 30:08.768
And like, that's what's happening. And I feel like you do that a lot,
30:08.784 --> 30:12.671
Jess. And Kelly, like, I've learned from you too, like blocking, like learning
30:12.783 --> 30:16.510
about my— where I write best, for example. I learned this from
30:16.558 --> 30:19.835
you. And like, just don't allow people to schedule on my calendar
30:19.867 --> 30:23.288
then. I used to really let people do that. This has nothing
30:23.384 --> 30:25.537
to do with the topic. I just wanted to— as you both were talking,
30:25.569 --> 30:28.155
I was like thinking about the things that I've learned from both of you that
30:28.655 --> 30:30.917
have helped me. Oh, I think it does have to do with the topic.
30:31.079 --> 30:33.640
I mean, these are ways that you protect your time, right? And I think,
30:33.657 --> 30:36.960
like, it's to me
30:36.976 --> 30:40.734
a key challenge when you have young kids and you're doing this kind of
30:40.830 --> 30:42.669
thing. So I think it's related.
30:45.629 --> 30:49.421
I think, like, the scheduling bit is probably just such a big
30:49.921 --> 30:54.020
deal, like being able to keep your— like, get everything done and find
30:54.520 --> 30:57.537
ways that, like, if something's not gonna happen in that time, how is it gonna
30:58.037 --> 31:01.757
happen? I guess maybe I'm feeling I'm reliving some
31:02.257 --> 31:05.645
PhD stress, perhaps. Like, how does it get done if it doesn't get done?
31:07.474 --> 31:11.062
I guess is maybe what I'm thinking about. But so,
31:11.307 --> 31:14.822
thoughts on that? Well, I guess one of the
31:14.903 --> 31:20.454
other, one of the, something I would call a benefit to parenting
31:20.713 --> 31:23.993
with, you know, in this, in an academic research career.
31:24.074 --> 31:27.074
So training and an early career and I don't know,
31:27.090 --> 31:30.058
maybe this is something I shouldn't be saying in this forum,
31:30.122 --> 31:33.844
but I just, I feel like perspective, right, is something that I
31:33.876 --> 31:37.406
have learned. And so you were mentioning, Katherine, that like the PhD is the
31:37.906 --> 31:41.241
hardest thing you've done. I no longer think that. It's definitely not the hardest thing
31:41.353 --> 31:45.444
I've done. And not
31:45.944 --> 31:49.295
because it's not hard. It was certainly hard. But I guess I just
31:49.795 --> 31:54.271
think about like the things that matter in my life. And to
31:54.771 --> 31:58.208
me, kids and family bring perspective. And so that's one of the things I remind
31:58.708 --> 32:02.128
myself is like, in the grand scheme of things, like,
32:02.465 --> 32:06.208
what is— what are my top, top priorities? And my, like, work is
32:06.417 --> 32:09.903
certainly a high priority. I'm not saying that it is not. I am
32:09.936 --> 32:13.229
just saying it is— there's perspective, right? And so I think like
32:13.729 --> 32:17.374
right now the research space is very challenging, right?
32:17.711 --> 32:20.021
It's challenging In a multitude of ways.
32:21.416 --> 32:24.605
But the, like, the climate in academic research is challenging. And so one of the
32:25.105 --> 32:28.739
ways that I manage that is perspective, right? Like the perspective
32:28.771 --> 32:33.114
that I think my kids and my family bring that force me to,
32:33.498 --> 32:36.816
you know, not binge write as long as I might want to,
32:37.344 --> 32:39.412
or to like come, you know what I mean? To come out of that,
32:39.428 --> 32:43.177
like the forcing me to think about like, yes, this matters.
32:43.274 --> 32:45.391
Yes, this is important. But also,
32:47.705 --> 32:51.111
there are these other things that are perhaps— I
32:51.143 --> 32:54.533
agree with that a lot. And I think the other thing that's come
32:55.033 --> 32:59.594
up a lot, changing, shifting a little bit, but kind of related, I hope.
33:00.381 --> 33:04.227
It seems like a theme we've maybe touched on so far is
33:04.259 --> 33:08.531
that approaches need to be personalized to people's priorities
33:08.564 --> 33:11.642
and styles. Like, Um,
33:12.078 --> 33:15.518
Catherine, I know you and I have like such similar personalities
33:15.550 --> 33:19.265
in so many ways, and yet we have completely different ways of approaching work
33:19.765 --> 33:21.686
and like managing difficulties with attention.
33:24.163 --> 33:26.411
Um, maybe I shouldn't have outed you as having difficulty. Oh, I don't care.
33:26.476 --> 33:27.224
No, it's totally fine.
33:30.482 --> 33:33.592
But I know your approach is to like take breaks during the day. I'm gonna
33:34.092 --> 33:37.772
stop for an hour and I'm gonna like do some laundry, or I'm gonna you
33:38.272 --> 33:40.672
know, move home and finish my day at home or whatever it might be.
33:40.881 --> 33:44.310
Where for me, like, once I step away from something,
33:44.438 --> 33:47.563
it is so hard for me to get back on it that I don't— like,
33:47.947 --> 33:51.521
that would never work for me. Um, and so I feel like there's
33:51.553 --> 33:54.790
so many different ways to go about things that are dependent on,
33:55.078 --> 33:58.219
like, how you work best, but then also, like, what— where you want to
33:58.267 --> 34:01.905
place your priorities. And Kelly, I hear, you know, you blocking your family
34:01.969 --> 34:04.903
time is a really important component for you,
34:05.561 --> 34:08.916
and that's really important for me also. I know that like when I come home,
34:09.253 --> 34:12.639
I— unless there's like something where, you know, we have some sort of
34:13.139 --> 34:16.138
special event or something, it's not like I'm never skipping kid time,
34:17.037 --> 34:20.664
um, for work. It happens occasionally, but like that's
34:21.164 --> 34:24.435
my priority is trying to be with my kids when I come
34:24.935 --> 34:27.404
home and then like be with my husband when they go to bed, whether we
34:27.904 --> 34:29.651
watch a movie or go do something or whatever.
34:30.919 --> 34:34.669
Um, which is another motivation for me to try to like make
34:35.169 --> 34:38.701
really good use of my work time when I'm there and try
34:39.201 --> 34:41.291
my best to achieve all of my goals for the day. And if I don't,
34:41.808 --> 34:44.899
spend the 5 minutes to rework my schedule to figure out how I'm going
34:45.399 --> 34:49.014
to catch up another time that is not during my family time.
34:51.967 --> 34:55.260
I like that strategy, Jess, of like, you know, like you have everything
34:55.374 --> 34:58.850
kind of blocked like that, that you're like, okay, this didn't happen for some reason.
34:59.284 --> 35:02.741
So like right now, when is it gonna happen? Instead of
35:02.757 --> 35:05.845
like pushing your day or feeling guilty about it,
35:07.349 --> 35:09.418
right? Because I've been in that cycle and that's not a good cycle either.
35:11.294 --> 35:14.867
Feeling guilty about it, feeling guilty about not getting it done, or feeling guilty
35:15.367 --> 35:19.119
about it like taking family time is like— figure out to take
35:19.619 --> 35:21.831
the time to figure out a strategy. Like it can be hard to figure out
35:22.331 --> 35:25.059
a strategy. It can take time and it can take emotional energy and cognitive energy.
35:25.337 --> 35:30.252
But it's like worth spending the time thinking about those things and
35:30.752 --> 35:34.024
trying them out, probably. I think the other thing that was—
35:34.282 --> 35:38.075
I, um, so I like to work out. I like
35:38.091 --> 35:40.560
exercise of some sort. And,
35:41.383 --> 35:44.867
um, so just like I'm saying, I, you know, take this approach to like
35:45.367 --> 35:49.994
block time for family, but like blocking time for myself from family
35:50.010 --> 35:53.701
for work. But also from both things for me has been
35:53.749 --> 35:56.829
a useful strategy. So it used to be like in our house, um,
35:57.663 --> 36:00.983
when my kids were both like elementary school age, like I didn't do breakfast.
36:01.063 --> 36:05.555
It's not my thing. I'm not picking it up. So dad's doing breakfast
36:05.859 --> 36:09.180
or we're having food that kids can get on their own. That's my workout
36:09.228 --> 36:12.724
time. And like, you know, I can remember having this conversation
36:13.224 --> 36:14.521
with my husband and he's like, I don't understand why you don't get up and
36:15.021 --> 36:17.232
cook breakfast. And I was like, because I want to be useful to you and
36:17.312 --> 36:19.693
to my work for the rest of the day. So I'm going to go work
36:19.725 --> 36:23.733
out, and everybody's going to figure it out. Everybody will
36:23.765 --> 36:26.852
eat, and life will move on. But I will be ready to take
36:27.352 --> 36:30.773
children to school. And before that, it is me. And that was
36:30.821 --> 36:34.505
really helpful for me to just have that time to myself. And I think it
36:35.005 --> 36:37.225
was also really helpful because they respected that and knew, like, OK,
36:38.868 --> 36:41.258
mom's going to go work out, go for a run, go do whatever.
36:43.016 --> 36:46.033
And so he would make breakfast. And that was,
36:46.957 --> 36:49.959
that was our routine for the longest of time. Now they're old enough to get
36:50.459 --> 36:52.165
themselves breakfast, which is also delightful.
36:54.150 --> 36:57.659
But so I think like thinking about
36:57.724 --> 37:01.797
what we individually need to be able to be present in
37:01.893 --> 37:06.706
these multiple spaces and to be at our best when we're there is
37:06.803 --> 37:10.408
also important. Like just the self-care pieces, I think what I'm talking
37:10.440 --> 37:14.492
about. I really like how you like figured
37:14.992 --> 37:18.211
out that kind of like division of what you needed and how that also
37:19.117 --> 37:21.447
affected your work for your relationship too.
37:24.240 --> 37:28.131
Is that— did either of you do anything like since you had families or
37:28.631 --> 37:32.103
were, you know, early fam— young families when you started
37:32.603 --> 37:36.308
your PhD, like to prepare for the time during your PhD, or do you feel
37:36.808 --> 37:39.994
like it was the same? Is this a silly question?
37:41.526 --> 37:43.604
Maybe you go to ChatGPT, lead me astray.
37:45.622 --> 37:48.781
Are you, are you asking, are you asking like,
37:49.023 --> 37:52.647
what do you need to talk about in advance to prepare for, for doing a—
37:52.971 --> 37:56.045
or if you think like, not at all, like live your life,
37:56.644 --> 38:00.096
see what happens? I mean, I have thoughts being on the back end of
38:00.596 --> 38:03.080
it, but I didn't have kids going in, so I feel like Kelly maybe should
38:03.170 --> 38:03.809
start us off?
38:07.957 --> 38:11.481
Um, I— so, so I had— I was pregnant when I applied
38:11.513 --> 38:14.378
to the PhD program. I've told you both that. And,
38:15.119 --> 38:18.517
um, I just laugh when you're like, are there
38:19.017 --> 38:21.705
things you did to prepare? Because I'm like, I had no idea what I was
38:21.818 --> 38:25.192
getting myself into. Prepare for what? I remember telling
38:25.208 --> 38:27.710
my husband like, yeah, I think I'm gonna go back to school. And he was
38:27.742 --> 38:29.680
like, have you lost your mind? Like,
38:30.788 --> 38:34.321
what? What? For what? What are you gonna do? I mean, he was like,
38:34.562 --> 38:37.212
you have a business. I have, I have no idea what you're talking about.
38:37.453 --> 38:40.472
This makes no sense to me. And so there was a lot of conversation and
38:40.505 --> 38:44.713
like, you know, because I also was— I'm a person who I feel
38:45.213 --> 38:48.551
like my, my entire career, I remember being in my master's. So my clinical background
38:49.051 --> 38:52.711
is a speech pathologist. And I remember being in my master's program and
38:53.211 --> 38:54.895
I was like, oh, this is not what I'm going to do for the rest
38:55.395 --> 38:58.781
of my life. No idea what I'm actually gonna do. I'm gonna do
38:59.281 --> 39:02.163
this now because this is where I am and this feels right. But I just
39:02.663 --> 39:05.190
know now that this is like not the end career for me. But I had
39:05.690 --> 39:08.381
no idea. But I was like, I— so I just kind of, um,
39:09.557 --> 39:12.620
have been somebody that goes with like, this feels like the right next step.
39:13.200 --> 39:14.457
I can't see the end yet,
39:16.468 --> 39:20.337
but I feel like this is what I should be doing. That is not my
39:21.356 --> 39:24.723
spouse, right? He's not the type that's like, I'm just gonna
39:24.739 --> 39:28.329
go with the feels here. And so I think like that's a
39:28.345 --> 39:31.471
balance in our personalities, obviously. But I think going into the PhD, I was like,
39:31.551 --> 39:35.030
this feels like the next right step. I could explain, I could tell anybody why,
39:36.120 --> 39:39.422
but like exactly where I was going with it, I couldn't have written the kind
39:39.922 --> 39:42.356
of where I am today and what I'm doing at that point.
39:43.029 --> 39:45.690
So like, what am I preparing for? I don't know, I'm going back to school.
39:46.123 --> 39:49.140
I know how to do school. So like, that was where my mind was.
39:49.268 --> 39:53.475
I had also done school, you know, over a decade before. School was very different,
39:53.958 --> 39:56.859
and I got there and was like, oh, things are— this— we're doing things a
39:57.359 --> 40:00.406
little different now. I gotta learn a whole new system, you know. So I think
40:00.906 --> 40:03.760
it's like, I don't know, for me it's hard. Like, how are you prepared?
40:04.259 --> 40:07.368
You don't know what you're preparing for. So I— so no, I did not.
40:09.187 --> 40:13.058
Yeah, I feel like, um, again, being on the back end
40:13.558 --> 40:17.138
of this and looking looking back to where I was going in, what would
40:17.170 --> 40:20.508
be helpful is I feel like to just have a conversation
40:20.540 --> 40:23.911
up front that it is a lot of unknowns, that we know
40:24.411 --> 40:26.896
this is going to be really hard, we know it's going to be time-consuming,
40:27.040 --> 40:29.833
and that it's going to change our routines and the way that we live our
40:30.333 --> 40:34.343
lives, and that we need to be aware of that and be
40:34.843 --> 40:38.355
ready to adjust as we go and like regularly communicate
40:38.855 --> 40:42.465
about it. So like as we get Like, as I got more insight into
40:42.609 --> 40:45.548
what, like, a dissertation was going to be like, what a postdoc was going to
40:45.564 --> 40:49.209
be like, we were constantly adjusting what
40:49.258 --> 40:52.935
was, what was working for us in terms of balancing schedules,
40:53.031 --> 40:56.227
balancing roles and responsibilities, and changing routines.
40:56.886 --> 41:01.045
Like, we did a lot of adjusting as we went because
41:01.077 --> 41:04.208
it is hard to know, and it is hard to plan. But I do think
41:04.708 --> 41:07.741
that maybe in advance, just like having a good conversation about, like,
41:08.543 --> 41:11.029
because this is going to be busy and some things are going to have to
41:11.529 --> 41:14.942
give. Like, what are my priorities and what are your priorities and what are our
41:15.442 --> 41:19.656
priorities for our relationship? And like having at least those things explicitly
41:19.945 --> 41:23.281
defined so that as you move forward
41:23.781 --> 41:27.049
with adjustments and plans, you know what are the things that need to come first.
41:27.931 --> 41:29.984
Um, and like for Sean,
41:30.994 --> 41:34.956
also maybe has a little bit of undiagnosed anxiety, gets anxious
41:35.326 --> 41:38.859
about not being at work when people are expecting him
41:39.359 --> 41:41.846
to be at work. And I know that about him. And his schedule is not
41:42.346 --> 41:45.733
flexible. And mine is. And that's part of why I take on that job of
41:45.829 --> 41:49.026
handling sick days. And so that's his priority.
41:49.700 --> 41:53.121
And so I support it. He knows that my priority is,
41:54.021 --> 41:57.474
you know, other things. He supports my priorities too. I have a long list of
41:57.974 --> 42:00.461
priorities. And also, I think,
42:00.985 --> 42:04.779
Being kind of on the lookout for each other's, like, well-being and mental
42:04.812 --> 42:06.294
health is also important.
42:08.509 --> 42:12.159
Um, maybe clear that I don't always have, like, great insight into how I'm
42:12.659 --> 42:15.976
feeling, uh, in the moment. And Sean has taken times where
42:16.476 --> 42:19.121
he's, like, sat me down and been like, you seem like you're not great.
42:19.525 --> 42:23.251
What's going on? And what do we need to do to make
42:23.751 --> 42:27.124
sure that you're going to be okay? Um, where that's maybe not, like,
42:27.140 --> 42:30.588
something I would have initiated for myself. And he's watching out and knows about
42:31.088 --> 42:34.597
it and watches for me. And there was even a time when,
42:36.245 --> 42:39.783
when we first moved to St. Louis, when he was still working a
42:39.880 --> 42:43.482
really, really busy job in Chicago and was traveling a lot and was working really
42:43.499 --> 42:47.504
long hours. And I was feeling really, really stressed. And that
42:47.536 --> 42:50.717
was clearly not working. So he got a new job here in St. Louis where
42:50.766 --> 42:53.979
he had a lot more free time. And that has really improved our lives.
42:54.502 --> 42:58.243
And we are like very lucky and privileged to like have that opportunity.
42:59.319 --> 43:02.803
But that was also a hard adjustment for me because I
43:03.156 --> 43:06.544
had this year of being really, really busy and taking on
43:07.044 --> 43:10.639
a lot of responsibilities and then suddenly didn't have to do that anymore.
43:11.200 --> 43:14.701
And like adjusting back was also hard and being able
43:14.749 --> 43:18.105
to turn off sometimes. And it had been a while since I had pursued any
43:18.605 --> 43:21.285
of my hobbies and I like, didn't know what to do with myself. And I
43:21.785 --> 43:25.158
was finding myself like scrolling my phone for like— he started telling me
43:25.658 --> 43:29.323
like, you're just gonna like go be by yourself in your room for like an
43:29.501 --> 43:32.850
hour and like do something relaxing, read a book, whatever, take a long shower,
43:32.915 --> 43:35.585
find some way to relax. And I would just like waste time on my phone
43:36.085 --> 43:38.756
because the thought of even like planning an activity was overwhelming.
43:40.611 --> 43:44.018
And he fortunately like OT'd
43:44.518 --> 43:48.029
me and was like, well, come up with your list of like hobbies that you
43:48.077 --> 43:51.189
want to start doing again and like come up with the steps.
43:51.445 --> 43:54.573
Like, what are the things that you need? And like, what materials do you need
43:55.073 --> 43:58.101
to buy? And like, do you need the book? Do you need like an updated
43:58.601 --> 44:02.431
library card? Or do you need like some supplies? And like
44:02.931 --> 44:05.173
locked me in our room basically and it's like, don't come out until you have
44:05.673 --> 44:09.616
some ideas. And I did. I started like painting by numbers
44:09.968 --> 44:13.660
and like reading books and like crocheting, and like,
44:13.820 --> 44:17.674
I needed that push from someone outside
44:18.174 --> 44:21.367
of me, like, to just get me back on track. Um,
44:21.431 --> 44:24.835
and so I feel like that's a really, like, an example of why
44:24.915 --> 44:28.287
it's important to, like, also keep an eye on each other and support each other
44:28.913 --> 44:31.963
emotionally. I absolutely love that.
44:32.108 --> 44:35.961
Yeah, I didn't know that. I, I love
44:36.461 --> 44:39.638
all the things I just learned about Shawn in this past couple minutes.
44:40.153 --> 44:43.530
Because I guess what I heard you say in the beginning was just
44:43.611 --> 44:47.278
being flexible, right? And I feel like
44:47.343 --> 44:50.884
that's so important, but understanding each other. And I
44:50.981 --> 44:56.107
think knowing what
44:56.382 --> 44:59.390
the uncertainty— how each
44:59.890 --> 45:02.915
of you handles uncertainty and the need for flexibility.
45:03.977 --> 45:06.654
And I don't know. I just love the story. I feel like that's so important
45:07.154 --> 45:10.632
in thinking about Um, like, this is also like just
45:11.001 --> 45:14.831
Relationships 101. I feel like you just gave us, Jess. Um,
45:14.847 --> 45:18.613
also, I will just say, like, as someone who's always been pretty Type A and
45:18.933 --> 45:21.385
has like— I've made a real effort to let go of a lot of that
45:21.433 --> 45:24.814
in parenthood because it's just not sustainable. But as someone who still
45:25.314 --> 45:28.917
is like pretty Type A, it has really helped us to
45:29.205 --> 45:33.099
even develop like an outside of work, like, clear schedule.
45:33.532 --> 45:36.611
Like, we have a babysitter every Thursday and we
45:36.643 --> 45:40.140
like go to trivia together so that we always have like one night where
45:40.268 --> 45:43.106
we're— neither of us is responsible for bedtime. We just do our own thing.
45:43.379 --> 45:47.404
We go out or do whatever. And then we have one, one weekend day
45:48.030 --> 45:52.376
each weekend. I take Saturdays and he takes Sundays where we
45:52.392 --> 45:55.391
don't leave our room until like 10 or 11,
45:56.081 --> 45:59.320
even if we wake up at the same time as the kids. Like It's our
45:59.417 --> 46:03.188
off time and our quiet time to like be alone and not be expected
46:03.204 --> 46:06.784
to be around or do anything for just like some quiet alone time.
46:07.698 --> 46:11.598
And then we have our weeknights where we kind of know Sean
46:11.630 --> 46:14.969
does bedtime on these 3 nights and I do
46:14.985 --> 46:17.842
bedtime on these 3 nights. And on these nights, he— I know that he's going
46:18.342 --> 46:20.923
to play video games with his friends. And on this night, he has his paint
46:21.423 --> 46:24.197
club. And on this night, I have standing happy hour with my friend. And so
46:24.213 --> 46:28.442
we have like structure so that we know like I
46:28.474 --> 46:32.974
am expected to be doing something that is not childcare during
46:33.071 --> 46:36.901
this time that is for me or for Shawn to support our
46:36.982 --> 46:39.490
own hobbies or to support our relationship with each other.
46:41.560 --> 46:45.302
That has also I think been a game changer in helping us like
46:45.447 --> 46:50.190
maintain some healthy routines and
46:50.206 --> 46:52.767
I wish I could claim that that was my idea but it was— it was
46:52.816 --> 46:55.857
not. It seems like a really good idea.
46:56.100 --> 46:59.335
Like, I don't know that I've heard somebody like lay out so cleanly before,
46:59.352 --> 47:02.815
like, this is how we also maintain ourselves and
47:02.912 --> 47:06.295
don't just get like sucked into life
47:06.554 --> 47:09.080
taking you in every day and scrolling our phones.
47:10.112 --> 47:13.380
Um, so again, this mostly was prompted by Sean,
47:14.942 --> 47:18.774
primarily due to his concerns about my mental health at times that
47:18.806 --> 47:22.586
got really stressful. But also because one of his priorities
47:22.635 --> 47:26.062
is continuing to have like his time for his hobbies.
47:26.806 --> 47:30.264
And that for him is
47:30.361 --> 47:32.814
playing video games with his brother and his cousin once a week.
47:34.477 --> 47:37.721
And he is really good at
47:38.221 --> 47:42.085
identifying what his priorities are and putting boundaries around it and sticking to it.
47:42.797 --> 47:45.950
And I have been less good about that. And so having
47:46.031 --> 47:49.695
him like helped me see that and work through it.
47:50.261 --> 47:52.929
At first, I was like, this is kind of ridiculous. And it like made me
47:53.429 --> 47:57.467
feel a lot of guilt, like I'm not gonna do that because like I actually
47:57.967 --> 48:01.048
like need to be with my kids or whatever. And it took a long time
48:01.484 --> 48:05.049
for me to realize that like actually it's fine for them to just like
48:05.097 --> 48:08.671
hang with dad right now. And I don't need to be there all the
48:09.171 --> 48:12.342
time. I can go do something that's fun.
48:13.257 --> 48:16.915
Um, but getting over like the guilt of that, that Sean never seemed
48:16.963 --> 48:20.156
to feel and I always seemed to feel, um,
48:20.236 --> 48:23.862
was a really hard journey. But it has paid off so much with like
48:24.006 --> 48:26.846
much better quality of life. I, um,
48:28.274 --> 48:32.108
used to do triathlons. I, while I was actually doing my PhD,
48:32.188 --> 48:35.943
I picked up triathlons as like a hobby. I have no idea
48:36.443 --> 48:39.696
why. Um, I need something else complicated, complicated,
48:39.809 --> 48:42.969
that takes time to do. But anyway, I used to ride with someone who had
48:43.469 --> 48:46.530
a really busy job, also 2 children. Um,
48:46.546 --> 48:50.123
her husband stayed at home, and so like, I think that was an added
48:50.171 --> 48:53.298
support that she had. But I remember having this conversation with her about like how
48:53.798 --> 48:57.244
she manages to do all these things and, and the time away from kids,
48:57.309 --> 48:59.875
that piece. And she was like,
49:00.500 --> 49:03.949
this is— they— this is teaching them to be better people and
49:04.029 --> 49:07.673
like self-sufficient and to understand That like it's important for
49:08.173 --> 49:10.293
me to take time for myself. I mean, it was such a— to me,
49:10.309 --> 49:13.346
it was such an insightful conversation for me to just think about like,
49:13.909 --> 49:17.573
what is actually the lesson for my kids if I, A,
49:17.782 --> 49:21.302
feel like, you know, like they can't function without me, I always have
49:21.802 --> 49:25.381
to be there, and like if I set this model for them that
49:26.010 --> 49:29.173
is unhealthy for me. Um,
49:29.351 --> 49:32.060
so anyway, just that made me think of it listening to what you're saying,
49:32.173 --> 49:36.576
Jess, about like learning to like take time for yourself and not
49:36.705 --> 49:40.079
feel guilty about it. And so she helped me to think about
49:40.579 --> 49:43.295
like, oh, this is actually really good for my kids in a different way,
49:44.914 --> 49:49.221
that my not being present sometimes is helpful for them
49:49.286 --> 49:52.195
and allows them time to like— I don't know. Anyway,
49:55.170 --> 49:58.868
yeah, I feel like just in terms of themes, I'm just thinking about what we've
49:59.368 --> 50:02.657
been talking about. Like 2 big things are standing out to me, the flexibility
50:03.157 --> 50:08.170
piece, but like this partnership idea and like how you structure and handle whatever
50:08.218 --> 50:11.356
partnership exists in your family structure and
50:11.856 --> 50:13.755
how that looks, right? So I think,
50:14.109 --> 50:17.377
you know, I know single parents
50:17.877 --> 50:20.870
who are going back to school and have children, and so thinking about what that
50:21.370 --> 50:22.313
support system looks like,
50:24.547 --> 50:28.327
how deep your, you know, bench is for support, what that— who those people
50:28.441 --> 50:33.088
are and what kinds of partnerships you're building with them. But, you know, and Um,
50:33.588 --> 50:36.238
just, yeah, who your partner is and how you're working together and what is the,
50:36.254 --> 50:39.694
like, structure you set and really personalizing that seemed to be,
50:39.758 --> 50:43.209
like, the big takeaway that I'm hearing. Um,
50:43.322 --> 50:46.911
yeah, in this conversation. Yeah, I feel like that's what I've learned
50:46.960 --> 50:50.598
from both of you today, like, things that I didn't know about
50:50.662 --> 50:53.604
either of you even though I've known you both for years, like,
50:55.510 --> 50:58.856
the real importance of figuring out what works for you
50:59.788 --> 51:01.604
And like how your,
51:02.761 --> 51:06.923
like, your village that's supporting you is
51:07.019 --> 51:10.474
able to show up for you and, or, or not. Like, what are the
51:10.974 --> 51:13.238
things you have to do for yourself? What are the things that you can ask
51:13.738 --> 51:17.143
the people around you to support you with? And like, try maybe some trial
51:17.643 --> 51:21.642
and error of those different strategies. Yeah. Because everybody's
51:22.142 --> 51:26.813
is like, Jess, I think you said this earlier, like, It may look
51:26.877 --> 51:29.973
similar, but, but in practice is very,
51:30.005 --> 51:33.198
very different. So like, we all have our own strategies. I think,
51:33.214 --> 51:36.839
Kelly, you love the flexibility of our, of like
51:36.919 --> 51:39.550
our chosen career paths. And yeah,
51:40.529 --> 51:43.882
yeah, but like I do, there are boundaries, right? Like work from home is not
51:44.382 --> 51:46.609
always great for me and I have to like, you know what, I gotta,
51:46.833 --> 51:50.090
I need to be back away from like, it's summertime though. And I,
51:50.700 --> 51:54.039
so anyway. Yeah, we're all at home right now for anybody who's listening.
51:55.500 --> 51:57.652
But one of the things I learned is like, I like to work from home
51:57.684 --> 52:00.831
more in the summer because my kids are at home and I only have so
52:01.331 --> 52:05.552
many summers left, you know, like those kinds of things. And so I— but
52:06.052 --> 52:08.298
yeah, the other thing I was thinking about that we didn't explicitly talk about,
52:09.165 --> 52:13.372
but clearly we all know each other, we all work together. And I think having
52:13.998 --> 52:17.836
some kind of network wherever you are. So when I was a student, there were
52:18.061 --> 52:21.899
other students in my program who also had children or were having children.
52:22.716 --> 52:25.887
Not many, but there were a couple.
52:26.050 --> 52:29.005
And I think so, like, having folks who,
52:29.279 --> 52:33.057
who understand
52:33.619 --> 52:36.593
that, like, we all have different routines, we all have different things that work for
52:37.093 --> 52:40.008
us. But I think we all kind of also have each other.
52:40.700 --> 52:44.060
And that's, I think, a helpful strategy. Second that.
52:44.629 --> 52:47.864
Oh my gosh. Yeah. When I had my first kid in the PhD program,
52:48.623 --> 52:51.051
So maybe that was the thing that surprised me. It was like I had all
52:51.099 --> 52:54.089
these friends who didn't have kids. I was the only one in our, like,
52:54.169 --> 52:58.168
PhD program at Pitt who was, like, having a kid. And yet
52:59.011 --> 53:02.012
they were there for me in, like, the most supportive and, like,
53:02.255 --> 53:05.791
amazing ways. And also, you know,
53:05.807 --> 53:09.740
we— there is clearly so much that is, like, super toxic
53:09.804 --> 53:12.080
about academic culture,
53:13.672 --> 53:16.345
but also some things that are really nice about OT culture.
53:17.048 --> 53:23.231
And being in a primarily like female-dominated profession
53:23.810 --> 53:28.396
of people who like are supportive of motherhood and supportive of parenthood and
53:28.412 --> 53:32.157
supportive of like the need for balance, I think was also— I was
53:32.269 --> 53:35.659
far more supported by my mentors and my institutions
53:36.305 --> 53:38.905
for both of my kids than I ever would have imagined.
53:41.076 --> 53:45.133
That was, I guess, a surprise. I was expecting it to be very bad
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and it was not. Yeah, I think that's excellent.
53:49.910 --> 53:53.790
So we're gonna wrap up, but the one thing, there was one like audience question
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that I wanted to just get your take on, Jess, and I'll give my take
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as well. And it's the, should I wait until my kids are older question?
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Because I feel like this is something that people who are thinking about this
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as an issue grapple with, right? So do you wanna go first?
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I will pass again what my PhD mentor shared
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with me when I revealed that I was having a baby and I was a
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little panicked about it. Her response was, there's never a wrong
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time to do what you think is best for your family. There's never a wrong
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time to do what you think is best for your career.
54:31.068 --> 54:34.253
There's pros and cons to probably both approaches.
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Like, Life is still hard when kids are older. I see you all the time
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at sports games in the evenings. Like, you still have busy kid schedules
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and, like, unexpected childcare needs, I imagine. And that does not go away.
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And that does not mean that it is— who knows, maybe it is better to
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wait. But I feel like regardless of when you feel like it is the right
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time for kids, when you feel like it is the right time for PhD,
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like, you can make it work.
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With flexibility and creativity and,
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uh, I guess some, some grit.
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Yeah, I like that. I like— I'm sure
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that that was Beth. Yes. Yeah, sounds like, sounds like
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Beth. Um, I, I will also give advice. My, um, I got this
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from my mom actually, and I— this was, I think, in thinking about
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like the right time to have kids, and she just her philosophy about everything is
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like, if you wait until you have enough or until you're ready for enough
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money for kids, enough money for what this, or enough time for X,
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like you'll be waiting forever was her advice to me. So to
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your, like similarly, um, if it feels right for you, for your family,
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for, then do it. Um, and so I guess, um,
55:49.033 --> 55:52.273
you know, I think another key takeaway
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of our conversation here today is You know, we talked about flexibility,
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personalizing your approaches, trial and error, but like understanding
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that we're all in it. Like parenting is like, you learn by doing,
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you figure it out as you go along. There's not a manual. Similarly, I think
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managing these types of things, parenting with, with, with a PhD in
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early career, or with some other kind of high-demand career,
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you find the strategies that work for you and, and find
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people who can support you in the ways that you need— friends,
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family, babysitters, what have you.
56:28.953 --> 56:32.899
So thank you all for listening. If you have other questions we didn't cover,
56:33.028 --> 56:36.701
feel free to send them our way. Thank you for joining us today.
56:37.183 --> 56:40.728
Check out our other episodes to hear more. You can find the first
56:41.228 --> 56:45.204
season on YouTube under Washington University Program in Occupational Therapy's
56:45.220 --> 56:48.691
channel under the First Fridays for OT Research playlist.
56:49.559 --> 56:53.160
And more episodes of Demystifying Research linked under the research tab
56:53.320 --> 56:56.580
on the Washington University OT webpage at ot.wustl.edu.
56:58.230 --> 57:02.080
That's ot.wustl.edu.
57:02.649 --> 57:05.378
Send us your ideas for future episodes at demystifyingresearch@wustl.edu.