You’ve Got Mail: Deep Thoughts About Tom Hanks’ Charm, New York City’s Coziness, and the Merits of a Two-Hour RomCom / Commercial for AOL

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Let me talk about charm covering a lot of sins.
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Because oh my god, is Tom Hanks charming?
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Like it oozes from him.
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He is so charming.
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Like he can say the most horrific things, and he's charming.
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Have you ever had something you love dismissed because it's just pop culture?
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What others might deem stupid shit, you know matters.
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You know it's worth talking and thinking about.
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And so do we.
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So come overthink with us as we delve into our deep thoughts about stupid shit.
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This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make it free to produce.
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If you enjoy it even half as much as we do, please consider helping to keep us overthinking.
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You can support us at our Patreon.
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There's a link in the show notes.
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Or leave a positive review so others can find us.
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And of course, share the show with your people.
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I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, because pop culture is still culture.
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And shouldn't you know what's in your head?
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On today's episode, I'll be sharing my deep thoughts about the 1998 Nora Efron film You've Got Mail with my sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and with you.
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Now, before we dive in, listener, I would love to ask you to please do us a favor, if you haven't already, follow us on whichever uh platform you get your pods.
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If you are on Apple Podcasts, it is a plus sign.
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If you are on Spotify, it is a button that says follow.
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Doing that will help others find our podcast.
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It is a free and easy and simple way to help us out.
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And uh we would really appreciate it.
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Now let's dive in.
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So, Trace, I I'm pretty sure you've seen this film.
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It's one of our mom's favorites.
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She she loves this movie.
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So tell me what's in your head about You've Got Mail.
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Yeah, I I've I've I've seen this movie multiple times and Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, and like the moments that come up when I think about the movie are like when she's ill, she has a cold or something, and there's tissues everywhere, and she's like this big personality.
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And the moments when the the reveal finally happens because they've been corresponding and he knew who she was, but she didn't realize who he was.
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And so when that reveal happens and she says, I hoped it was you, which like, you know, made my heart itch when I saw it in the beginning.
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And now when I think about it, I'm like, ooh.
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And then like the final moment, like when one of Tom Hanks's like employees like wants to give her a job or something, or like says she'd be good as an as a as acquisitions editor or something, like somehow like making it okay.
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I'm putting quotes around that, about the fact that her family business was was put out of business by him.
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So those are the moments that come up, those, those specific moments.
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But I am very familiar with the film.
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It's probably been 10 years since I've seen it, but I've seen it many, many times.
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So so that's that's what's in my head is those things.
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Like, I I didn't see how gross the actual like action was in the 90s.
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I just saw the romance.
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And now all I can see is the grossness of the of the action.
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So, but tell me, why are we talking about you've got mail today?
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I remember when it came out, I had an AOL email address.
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And I remember there were like advertisements for it on AOL.
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And uh, it was a big deal.
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And I I I went to go see it and I loved it.
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I think I saw it in the theater.
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I then, right after I finished college, I worked for Barnes and Noble and I watched it many times in my first apartment when I was working for Barnes and Noble and feeling like, oh, I work for Fox books.
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I used to describe working for Barnes and Noble as being uh, you know, working for the literary branch of the evil empire.
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Yeah, I remember when you used to say that.
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And uh what's funny is now it it feels quaint to think of Barnes and Noble as as like the big baddie.
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Yeah.
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Because now that we have Jeff Bezos and yes.
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Any brick and mortar bookstore feels like, yes, please, we want you.
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And then the fact that it's about bookstores, which, you know, has always been something that I I loved was another reason why I really liked it.
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So it was something that I I I never owned it on DVD, but I remember going to the library when I when I lived in Columbus, I'd go to my local library and I would borrow it relatively regularly to re-watch it, even though I'd seen it so many times.
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And I can recall going to visit one of our aunts, and like she she would be like, Oh, I love a little romance.
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Let's watch You've Got Mail, even though we'd seen it so many times.
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Was that mom's youngest sister?
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So I had fond memories of this.
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But I also can remember our stepfather saying, like, how could she forgive him?
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And at the time being like, well, but you know, she got to do, you know, something new, something different with her life.
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And she'd been worried that her life was too small, but feeling a little weird about it.
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So so I I even then I had some like complex feelings about how the whole film played out.
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And considering the fact that this is the fourth iteration of the same story.
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Oh.
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Because uh it started off as a play called, I think, the parfumerie, la parfumerie, that is about correspondence, uh like pen pals between a man and a woman who don't realize that they are rivals who can't stand each other in in real life.
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And then the reason why Kathleen Meg Ryan's characters, Kathleen Kelly's store is called The Shop Around the Corner is because the 1940 version that had Jimmy Stewart was called The Shop Around the Corner.
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Now, Nora Efron modernized it by giving Kathleen Kelly her own business.
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So in the previous iterations of it, they were rivals who worked at the same store and that sort of thing.
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And there are references throughout this movie of Pride and Prejudice.
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And so there's there's uh the like enemies to lovers, like sense of the misunderstanding between Darcy and Lizzie Bennett.
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Sure within this.
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But that addition of capitalism, hmm, there's something something about that.
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And uh it's very quintessentially 90s and very quintessentially Nora Ephron, which is, I think, in general a good thing, but also it it's uh it's not exactly what we thought it was.
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Yeah.
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So I'm gonna give you uh a couple of postcards from the destination before I kind of remind you of the story.
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I'm gonna talk about capitalism and product placement, because as I I said, you know, when you had an AOL email account, when you signed on to AOL, they had like ads for the movie in 1998 because this was really a two-hour commercial for America Online.
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So like I'm I'm on a theme here because my last uh episode was Me Man.
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So I'm gonna be talking about that.
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Um, I'm gonna be talking about how Nora Efron, especially in this film, illustrates a lot of things that are true.
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And it takes hindsight to realize how infuriating these true things are.
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I'm gonna talk about how charm and specifically Tom Hanks' charm covers a lot of sins.
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I want to talk about the irony of the fact that this two-hour commercial is about the destruction of a small business.
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But in some ways, it's not ironic because it makes us be okay with the fact that it's about the destruction of a small business.
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I want to talk about how Nora Efron made this film beloved, like what she did.
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And some of it has to do with how New York is the setting and how beautifully she uses it as the setting.
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And also, like one of the things that I have always personally adored about this film is what I call indie actors.
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I don't know what else you would call them, but they're not like A-list celebrities, but they're phenomenal actors.
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And I'm thinking specifically Parker Posey and Steve Zahn.
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But also I would uh I would add Greg Kinnear to that, who are in this film, which was a major success.
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But, you know, even prior to this and even after this, they they were not necessarily in these big budget films, which I don't know if there's a big budget, but you know, big studio films.
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So I want to talk uh also about the internet and like how it has changed and like how quaint things are watching this.
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And that kind of ties into romance via correspondence as well.
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So those are those are some of the things that I want to talk about in this episode.
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I'm probably not gonna be able to get to all of it.
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So just to remind you of what this film is about, it is autumn in New York.
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We meet Kathleen Kelly.
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She is in a relationship with a writer for I don't remember which newspaper, but he's he's a columnist named Frank, played by Greg Kinnear.
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Kathleen Kelly is played by Meg Ryan.
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They don't live together, but they practically do.
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Like the um, we see him at her apartment all the time.
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He is getting up and leaving, and we see her kind of like checking, make sure he's gone before she checks her email because she is looking for an email from her email pen pal, NY152.
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She is shop curl.
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And so it is established that she has this long-running correspondence that is sort of almost not quite an emotional affair via email.
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And so we see a little bit of their correspondence back and forth.
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We then see that uh the person behind NY152, who lives at 152, that's his address, and they're both in the upper west side of Manhattan, is Joe Fox, played by Tom Hanks.
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And we see them both starting their day and they keep missing each other.
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They're walking, you know, similar paths.
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They both stop at Starbucks and just miss each other.
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They're both walking down the same street at different times, just barely missing each other.
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Kathleen has a small independent children's bookstore called The Shop Around the Corner that was started by her mother 42 years before Cecilia was her mother's name.
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And her mother has passed away.
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We don't know how long ago her mother's been gone, but it seems like at least a decade.
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And she has, it seems like three employees.
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There's her accountant, Bertie, played by Gene Stapleton.
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And then there's George played by Steve Zahn, and I am, I think Kate is uh the young woman who is in college, um, who works there part-time.
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And then Joe is the son of a line of the Fox men who have a chain of bookstores, a la Barnes and Noble, called Fox and Sons Books.
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And they are opening a new branch on the Upper West Side.
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And we see Joe with his father, played by Dabney Coleman, and his grandfather, who um I an old man, uh, talking about um they're expecting protests.
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And uh Dabney Coleman starts saying, like, oh, the liberal latte sipping and like this whole thing.
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And Joe says, readers, dad.
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And Dabney Coleman says, Don't romanticize them, son.
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So we get a sense of like kind of the cutthroat nature of Fox and Son's books.
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Joe is also in a relationship with a woman named Patricia, played by Parker Posey, who he describes as making coffee nervous.
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So that is the setup.
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Kathleen and Joe correspond almost daily.
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They have already set up the rules that they don't tell each other anything personal, like not what their jobs are, not what their names are, nothing like that.
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They just kind of talk generalities, but they talk about books, they talk about music, they talk about how much they love New York.
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So they know that they're both in New York.
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So Joe has an aunt who is about nine years old because his um grandfather had a much younger wife or girlfriend.
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And then he has a brother who is four years old because his father has a much younger paramour, who he's been with for five years, but has not married.
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And so Joe takes the kids out for a day of fun and they stop at the shop around the corner.
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And so that's how they first meet and they're charmed by each other.
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Uh, Joe, of course, knows who he is, but she doesn't know that he's a fox.
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And so she's charmed by him.
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He tells her, just call me Joe.
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She then meets him again at a literary party and is talking to him, and he's trying to avoid her because he knows she'll find out very quickly who he is.
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Uh, and someone comes up to her and says, I can't believe you were talking to Joe Fox.
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And then she then goes, goes and confronts him, and he is very rude to her because he feels feels bad.
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She looks for solace by emailing NY152, not knowing it's Joe.
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Um, he doesn't know that shop girl who's emailing him is Kathleen.
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Well, actually, he actually goes to her for solace, come to think of it.
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He says, I'm not perfect.
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You know, my snark comes out when I'm confronted and, you know, I say the most horrible and nasty things.
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And she says, actually, when I'm confronted, I I freeze and I can't think of anything to say.
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So things continue when the store, when Foxbooks opens, she immediately loses business.
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So she asks for NY152's advice.
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He suggests go to the mattresses because he's into The Godfather, which is basically, you know, fight.
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So she asks Frank, her boyfriend, to write a column.
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And it brings, you know, a whole bunch of business and a whole bunch of um interest into the store and sends picketers to Fox Fox books, but it doesn't make any difference.
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She asks NY152 if they can meet, because Joe had suggested it before and she'd said no.
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So he goes to the cafe where they're going to meet, and he brings Kevin, who is his store manager, who's played by Dave Chappelle, and he's feeling really anxious about it, like about he's afraid she's going, because Kevin keeps saying, like, she could be a real dog, man, which is like just lovely.
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And so he's like, Can you just look in there and look to see?
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She'll have a copy of Pride and Prejudice and a and a rose.
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So Kevin looks in there and says, Oh, she's actually very attractive.
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You know, if you think Kathleen Kelly is beautiful, then I know you'll find her attractive.
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And he's like, Oh, that's fantastic.
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And he's like, Well, if you don't like Kathleen Kelly, I don't know if you'll like her.
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And he's like, What?
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Why not?
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He's like, Because it's Kathleen Kelly.
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And so that's how Joe finds out that Shop Girl is Kathleen.
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He was gonna leave and just, you know, have her be stood up by NY152.
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But then he comes in and she finds her spine and is is is rude to him.
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They have like, it's actually very well done banter, like Lizzie Bennett and Darcy kind of banter to the point where he finally, like, she says something that that really hurts his feelings, and you can see him like, okay, that's my cue to leave, and he leaves.
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But then she thinks she was stood up.
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He is feeling like, you know, she's really like a mean person.
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But she emails him and says, Why, why weren't you there?
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You weren't there, and someone who's making my professional life miserable was, and I don't know what happened.
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And so he says, I can't tell you why I wasn't there.
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And I'm sorry that you had that experience.
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But, you know, I really do want to keep talking to you.
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So they continue uh having the conversation.
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All of this is uh it starts in autumn in New York.
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This is all going through, you know, you see see Christmas happen, and uh we see an author come to the store saying, Oh, I'm so so worried about your store.
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And Kathleen says, No, no, no, we're gonna be fine.
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We're excited for your new book.
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And the author says, Oh, it's gonna be published in January.
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And uh Kathleen says, That's great, we're gonna have you here for the signing.
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And then we see that she's doing the signing at Foxbooks.
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And so things continue.
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Kathleen decides to close the store because it's just not sustainable.
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We see that Joe and Patricia break up.
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He gets stuck in an elevator in his building.
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And he realizes, just based on what's going on in that elevator, that he and Patricia aren't aren't meant for each other.
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Frank and Kathleen break up because Kathleen talks to Bertie, played by Gene Stapleton, who is telling her the story of the time she fell madly in love in Spain and she couldn't marry him because he ran Spain.
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And I realize it had to have been generalisimo Franco.
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And uh Frank is like furious about this.
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And he's like, you know, you have a fling, but not with a fascist dictator.
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And Kathleen's like, back off this, she's very, very dear to me.
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She's like a second mother to me.
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And he's like, Well, I couldn't be with someone who didn't take politics as seriously as I do.
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And honestly, I'm kind of a little bit with Frank on this.
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And uh, and so she then confesses to him, like, you know what?
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I have something to tell you.
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In the last election, when it was uh Rudy Giuliani versus whoever he was running against, I forgot to vote.
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I got a manicure, I was not having my normal day, and I forgot to vote.
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And he's like, All right, I forgive you.
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And so she just gets up and leaves.
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They were there to see a movie.
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She gets up and leaves, and then he gets up and he's like, I'm sorry, that was really uncalled for.
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And they they end up breaking up.
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So we see her closing the store, and on the day the store is closed, she wanders into Foxbooks, goes to the children's section, overhears a clerk unable to help a uh customer because they have no idea what book it is that the person's looking for.
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Of course, she knows.
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And so she's crying.
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It's like the pink ballet slipper.
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It's it's the shoe books.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.240
The person's asking for the shoe books, and she's like, Yeah, by Noah Strepfield.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:49.039
There's uh the ballet shoes, the skating shoes, the and and Joe sees this happen.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:59.759
And so several weeks later, um, after a conversation with his father, Joe realizes, no, I really, really like her and I want to try to befriend her.
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.319
So it's the scene you remember when she's sick.
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:09.519
He like hustles his way into her house, which is kind of not okay, and says, I want to be your friend while she's sick.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:22.480
And then he starts like insinuating himself into her life in real life while also emailing her, saying, I want to meet, but I I have a project that that takes some tweaking.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:35.359
And so he is like befriending her in real life while also emailing her until it gets to a point where he plans to have lunch with her as Joe.
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:40.559
And then NY152 is going to meet her the same day that afternoon.
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:49.440
And so when he has lunch with her, he says to her, like, you know, if it hadn't been for all of the business stuff, uh, I think I would have asked for your number.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:58.960
I would have uh like wanted to have coffee or dinner or drinks with you, and then for as long as we both shall live, like I would have wanted to do that.
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:05.279
And the only thing we would have ever argued about was what video to watch on Saturday night.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:12.720
And he's like, if you could forgive him for standing you up, why can't you forgive me for putting you out of business?
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.599
Because those things are equivalent, those are things are not exactly equivalent.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:19.359
And she's like, I have to go.
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:29.200
And so she then leaves to go meet NY152, and of course it's him, and that's when she says, I had hoped it was you, and that's the end of the they they kiss, and it's the end of the film.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.559
So let me talk about charm covering a lot of sins.
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:37.279
Because oh my god, is Tom Hanks charming?
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.880
Like it oozes from him.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.200
He's so charming.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.640
Like he can say the most horrific things, and he's charming.
00:22:11.349 --> 00:22:11.750
Yeah.
00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:12.309
Yeah.
00:22:12.470 --> 00:22:16.069
Like when when God was like passing out charm, he got in line twice.
00:22:16.230 --> 00:22:16.549
Yeah.
00:22:16.710 --> 00:22:16.869
Yeah.
00:22:17.029 --> 00:22:18.389
I think more than twice.
00:22:18.549 --> 00:22:21.509
Like he got in line twice, and then he's like, Can I have half of yours?
00:22:21.669 --> 00:22:21.990
Tilling.
00:22:22.950 --> 00:22:23.190
Yeah.
00:22:23.509 --> 00:22:24.950
Someone else's.
00:22:25.669 --> 00:22:36.710
Because He is able to, with a straight face, say, like, if you can forgive him for standing you up, why can't you forgive me for the little thing of putting you out of business?
00:22:37.029 --> 00:22:38.230
He says the little thing.
00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:39.430
He actually says that.
00:22:39.589 --> 00:22:45.109
And like he's saying it to make it clear, I know what I did was unforgivable.
00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:48.470
But it's still like, it's unforgivable, Joe.
00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:55.430
And when he comes to see her when she's sick, he says to her, like, it wasn't personal.
00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:59.829
And she responds, I hate it when people say that.
00:23:00.069 --> 00:23:02.710
When they say that, that means it wasn't personal to them.
00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:04.470
It was personal to me.
00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:06.309
It was my mother's store.
00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:07.669
It was my legacy.
00:23:08.069 --> 00:23:10.230
It was my connection to my dead mother.
00:23:10.869 --> 00:23:15.829
And then also, if things are anything, they should at least be personal.
00:23:17.909 --> 00:23:28.230
And I feel like if we had any other actor and any other pairing, because their chemistry is bonkers.
00:23:28.549 --> 00:23:29.190
Yeah.
00:23:30.389 --> 00:23:32.309
This movie would not work.
00:23:32.710 --> 00:23:33.269
Yeah.
00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:38.710
I mean, I'm sure there are other actors who could pull it off, but these two really do make you believe it.
00:23:38.950 --> 00:23:43.109
I I mean, and Hanks, like we talked about it when we talked about A League of Their Own.
00:23:43.269 --> 00:23:46.629
Like his character in that in A League of Their Own is a dick.
00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:50.470
And yet, like the only thing in my memory is how charming Tom Hanks was.
00:23:50.789 --> 00:23:51.990
I think it's similar here.
00:23:52.149 --> 00:23:56.629
Like Joe is he's a bro, you know?
00:23:56.869 --> 00:23:59.909
But we all fall in love with him because he was Tom Hanks.
00:24:00.230 --> 00:24:01.430
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:11.909
I read some commentary about this, some people, and it's mostly like blog posts, people, you know, re-watching it after, you know, 20 years and things like that.
00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:21.750
And some of what people are saying is like, it's not like what he's writing to her, at least early on, is all that charming even.
00:24:22.710 --> 00:24:27.750
You know, some of it is the voiceover delivery of Tom Hanks.
00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:29.509
Like he's talking about his dog.
00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.309
It's not even like it's that great.
00:24:32.629 --> 00:24:36.950
Now, some of it, I mean, some of the dialogue, some of what's written is great, is really, really well done.
00:24:37.269 --> 00:24:46.869
But I have trouble believing that what he's talking about with his dog is enough to make me like want to come back.
00:24:47.269 --> 00:24:48.230
Ignore Yeah.
00:24:48.389 --> 00:24:51.829
Well, ignore Greg Kinnear, who is a very attractive man.
00:24:52.149 --> 00:24:52.789
Yeah.
00:24:54.230 --> 00:24:56.789
That kind of charm covers so much.
00:24:57.349 --> 00:25:03.750
It's also other aspect, and this was I I read it on Lithub and I'll include it in the show notes.
00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:17.990
Someone else was saying, like, while he is a bro in this, and this is all like, you know, they're they're they're cast as like, you know, this big bad capitalism, they're still in books.
00:25:19.109 --> 00:25:27.829
That's not to say that like when Barnes and Noble would come in and put out independent bookstores, that that's really not okay.
00:25:29.669 --> 00:25:35.589
But it's not as if Barnes and Noble is Walmart or Amazon.
00:25:37.029 --> 00:25:48.230
And this Lithub essay that I was reading was saying, like, you know, Barnes Noble doesn't make this like the ginormous profit like Amazon.
00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:49.109
Walmart does.
00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:51.190
Yeah, or Amazon does.
00:25:51.589 --> 00:25:54.629
And you probably remember me talking about this.
00:25:54.789 --> 00:26:00.470
So when I worked at Barnes and Noble, we at one point got a new store manager.
00:26:01.269 --> 00:26:09.109
And like all of us, the booksellers, hated him because he came from Best Buy.
00:26:09.190 --> 00:26:10.470
He wasn't a book person.
00:26:11.589 --> 00:26:12.710
He was awful.
00:26:12.869 --> 00:26:13.990
He was a bro.
00:26:14.149 --> 00:26:15.349
He was like a pew pew.
00:26:16.069 --> 00:26:20.950
Because you actually see Joe and his father and grandfather do finger guns at each other.
00:26:21.109 --> 00:26:24.549
And this guy was unironically a finger guns guy.
00:26:25.750 --> 00:26:36.230
And so that that's that's a like attention as well, is like, because they are like delighted that a small bookstore has gone out of business.
00:26:36.470 --> 00:26:42.950
And I don't know what the, you know, big guys behind Barnes Noble, I don't know what they feel like.
00:26:43.430 --> 00:26:56.069
But I know the like store managed manager level did not feel good about that when small business small bookstores, independent bookstores went out of business.
00:26:56.389 --> 00:26:57.750
Because they love bookstores, right?
00:26:57.829 --> 00:27:09.990
Unlike your Best Buy guy who saw books only as a product, not as a container for what, you know, for story and and wonder and and exploration.
00:27:10.549 --> 00:27:11.190
Yeah.
00:27:11.669 --> 00:27:19.109
And so so like you don't come to own branches of book superstores if you don't love books.
00:27:19.509 --> 00:27:23.109
I mean, unless you acquire them, but I guess then they're not called Fox and Sons.
00:27:23.509 --> 00:27:23.829
Yeah.
00:27:23.990 --> 00:27:24.389
Yeah.
00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:31.430
That's more of a side issue, but like that that kind of gets to like the weirdness of Barnes Noble being the big bad.
00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:35.349
It's effective, but it is a little weird.
00:27:37.509 --> 00:27:47.269
So with charm covering a lot of sins, I want to um talk about how Nora Efron illustrates things that are true, especially about womanhood.
00:27:47.750 --> 00:27:57.909
So do you recall after Kathleen learns that Joe, just call me Joe, is Joe Fox, and they start noticing each other in the neighborhood all the time.
00:27:58.069 --> 00:28:05.589
And there's a point where she's shopping at a grocery store and like she realizes he's there and she's trying to avoid him.
00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:13.349
And so because she's so distracted by him being there, she gets into a cash-only line and she doesn't have cash to check out.
00:28:13.509 --> 00:28:23.349
And it's not until because she keeps doing this, it's not until she's ready to pay and she goes tries to give a credit card that she realizes she's in a cash-only line.
00:28:23.430 --> 00:28:28.309
And the cashier is like getting frustrated with her, as are the everyone in the line behind her.
00:28:29.190 --> 00:28:30.470
Does this sound familiar at all?
00:28:30.789 --> 00:28:31.269
Vaguely.
00:28:31.509 --> 00:28:32.950
Does Joe pay for her?
00:28:33.349 --> 00:28:36.069
Well, Joe shows up, he's like, Do you, do you need some money?
00:28:36.149 --> 00:28:37.589
And she's like, No, of course I don't need money.
00:28:37.750 --> 00:28:40.629
But everyone's like, get in a different line, get in a different line.
00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:48.549
Joe comes in and uh the cashier's name is Rose, and she's got a name tag on, and he starts charming her.
00:28:48.629 --> 00:28:50.069
He's like, he's like, Do you need some money?
00:28:50.149 --> 00:28:53.269
And Kathleen's no, no, of course I don't need money because she doesn't want to take money from him.
00:28:53.430 --> 00:28:53.990
Yeah.
00:28:54.230 --> 00:28:57.349
And he's like, Rose, that's a great name.
00:28:57.589 --> 00:29:02.309
You know, Rose, you've got a you've got a credit card machine right here.
00:29:02.629 --> 00:29:08.309
Do you think you could maybe just break the rules just one time, just one time for my friend here?
00:29:08.869 --> 00:29:16.069
And like, this is also it's uh, there's a it's a Visa product placement because he holds up the credit card so you can see the logo.
00:29:16.309 --> 00:29:19.029
Can you just maybe just one time for this?
00:29:19.349 --> 00:29:25.509
And so she starts like smiling because it's the charm of Tom Hanks.
00:29:26.629 --> 00:29:29.029
He's like, just the one time, just zip zip.
00:29:29.269 --> 00:29:31.349
And so she allows it.
00:29:31.589 --> 00:29:35.509
And uh Kathleen is so embarrassed and she's like, I am so sorry.
00:29:35.589 --> 00:29:37.269
I'm so sorry, I never do this.
00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:48.869
And as soon as the the transaction's done, and Rose is still smiling because, you know, Tom Hanks, she turns to to Kathleen and immediately is mad again.
00:29:49.109 --> 00:29:51.909
And everyone in the in the line is annoyed again.
00:29:52.950 --> 00:30:06.710
And in the moment, like when I saw this in '98, and since I was just thinking about, like, you know, Joe is so charming, you're thinking he can talk his way into or out of anything.
00:30:07.109 --> 00:30:16.629
But on this rewatch, I'm sitting there thinking, like, the woman doesn't no, no, no, as in Kathleen.
00:30:16.869 --> 00:30:20.149
Oh, a man can break the rules.
00:30:21.029 --> 00:30:24.230
And he is rewarded with smiles.
00:30:25.029 --> 00:30:28.789
But the woman breaking the rules is still the villain.
00:30:29.669 --> 00:30:40.950
And we don't see this as like this really embarrassing moment for Kathleen as anything other than like Joe's being a good guy.
00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:43.349
He came to her rescue.
00:30:43.669 --> 00:30:45.669
He's using his charm for good.
00:30:46.309 --> 00:30:48.869
As opposed to critiquing the actual moment itself.
00:30:49.190 --> 00:30:49.589
Yes.
00:30:49.750 --> 00:30:50.069
Yeah.
00:30:50.309 --> 00:30:55.269
And how how this is like this impossible bind that Kathleen was in.
00:30:55.509 --> 00:30:55.990
Yeah.
00:30:56.309 --> 00:31:01.669
Because, you know, it's understandable that she was distracted because she's like, oh, I do not want to deal with this guy.
00:31:01.750 --> 00:31:03.909
And now I'm dealing with this guy.
00:31:04.629 --> 00:31:07.589
And it's way worse than if she had just said hello.
00:31:07.829 --> 00:31:08.149
Yeah.
00:31:08.710 --> 00:31:09.349
Yeah.
00:31:09.909 --> 00:31:17.430
And so this is what I meant when I said Nora Efron illustrates things that are true, and it takes time for us to realize how infuriating they are.
00:31:18.389 --> 00:31:22.470
Because all of that is like just it's reality.
00:31:23.190 --> 00:31:32.149
It's reality that's if there's a man you're trying to avoid, like it ends up making a worse situation.
00:31:32.309 --> 00:31:32.710
Mm-hmm.
00:31:32.950 --> 00:31:34.149
Oftentimes for women.
00:31:34.389 --> 00:31:41.269
Whereas, and I I just saw it, but I can't remember if he's trying to avoid her too or or or not.
00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:46.789
But as soon as he sees she's in trouble, he's like about it.
00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:55.349
So like she can't get out of that grocery store without being embarrassed unless she abandons her cart and just leaves.
00:31:57.349 --> 00:32:10.869
And we're left feeling warm and fuzzy about him, him, in the same way that Rose the cashier is left feeling warm and fuzzy about him, where she's treated like an asshole by everyone in the line and by the cashier.
00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:15.669
Mm-hmm when she was just, she just didn't want to, she just didn't want to deal with this asshole.
00:32:16.789 --> 00:32:20.629
It's fascinating because Nora Efron was so savvy.
00:32:21.109 --> 00:32:26.629
Like she was so savvy about the realities of the cost of womanhood.
00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:33.750
She was so savvy about the realities of the sexual politics and the dynamics of navigating the world as a woman.
00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:40.549
And she showed us those realities, but she put it in candy coding.
00:32:44.069 --> 00:32:46.069
I'm not sure that's the right metaphor.
00:32:47.669 --> 00:32:53.029
But she showed us that without indictment of anyone.
00:32:53.829 --> 00:32:56.629
And I think that's a little different than candy coding.
00:32:58.069 --> 00:32:59.750
And that's why we didn't see it.
00:33:00.230 --> 00:33:03.269
Because she didn't she just showed us like this is what happens.
00:33:03.750 --> 00:33:06.230
And she didn't go like, isn't that shitty?
00:33:06.789 --> 00:33:15.190
Yeah, but she you know, like I do feel like we're we're that scene we're left to think like Joe's a good guy.
00:33:15.509 --> 00:33:17.190
That's why I say cute decoding.
00:33:17.669 --> 00:33:18.869
Yeah, maybe.
00:33:19.509 --> 00:33:20.389
Yeah, maybe.
00:33:20.629 --> 00:33:24.069
Like when I used to watch it, I would smile at Joe.
00:33:24.309 --> 00:33:25.029
Along with Rose.
00:33:25.269 --> 00:33:26.389
Along with Rose.
00:33:27.430 --> 00:33:33.190
Although I definitely related to Kathleen in that moment.
00:33:33.349 --> 00:33:33.750
Mm-hmm.
00:33:34.549 --> 00:33:36.149
But it's Tom Hanks.
00:33:36.470 --> 00:33:37.990
He's the candy coding.
00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:38.789
Yeah.
00:33:39.029 --> 00:33:39.589
I don't know.
00:33:39.669 --> 00:33:50.710
There's something uh I don't know that we have time to pull this apart here, but I think there's there's something really interesting about what Efron does by sort of showing us this very embarrassing moment.
00:33:50.950 --> 00:33:54.629
And I think we're meant to relate to Kathleen.
00:33:55.990 --> 00:34:04.629
And and so we have a moment of like resonance because we've experienced that.
00:34:04.869 --> 00:34:09.190
And so we don't indict any of it because we're like, yeah, that happens.
00:34:09.269 --> 00:34:09.670
That's real.
00:34:10.550 --> 00:34:11.269
You know what I mean?
00:34:11.430 --> 00:34:16.550
And it's almost like we're too close to it to realize how infuriating it is.
00:34:16.789 --> 00:34:22.389
I think that's that's kind of what you are getting at when you say that that Efron illustrates what's true.
00:34:23.190 --> 00:34:24.550
And then it takes a while for us.
00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:27.349
I mean, I feel like that was true of the whole freaking movie.
00:34:27.590 --> 00:34:27.909
Yeah.
00:34:27.990 --> 00:34:28.230
Yeah.
00:34:28.470 --> 00:34:31.909
About the small business being put out of business.
00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:36.470
Like we're watching it, we're like, yeah, that that's real.
00:34:36.789 --> 00:34:37.510
That happens.
00:34:37.670 --> 00:34:43.910
And so there's a resonance with reality that feels satisfying.
00:34:45.030 --> 00:34:51.030
And then as we start to unpack reality, then we can unpack the film that resonated with reality.
00:34:51.510 --> 00:34:53.510
I think that's true of the capitalism.
00:34:53.670 --> 00:35:03.350
I think that's also true of the double standard and the sort of cost of being female that is in this sort of in this in this one scene.
00:35:03.510 --> 00:35:08.470
I think it's also true in the overarching story of capitalism.
00:35:08.950 --> 00:35:13.750
It's not even like of that sort of cutthroat profits over everything.
00:35:14.470 --> 00:35:14.950
Yeah.
00:35:15.350 --> 00:35:29.510
To get into that, so the illustrating things that are true with the downfall of Shop Around the Corner, I feel like Efron wanted to modernize the story and make Kathleen a business owner.
00:35:30.470 --> 00:35:44.950
And I think she wanted to also make it okay that she loses her business by introducing before the possibility of losing her business, introducing her, her saying, like, I live a little life.
00:35:45.030 --> 00:35:49.750
I mean, it's a valuable one, but I run the store that my mother started.
00:35:50.150 --> 00:35:52.070
You know, she's the one who lived a big life.
00:35:52.150 --> 00:35:54.390
She's the one who had the dream of starting the store.
00:35:54.630 --> 00:35:55.269
Yeah.
00:35:55.750 --> 00:35:59.350
And her then writing children's books afterwards.
00:35:59.510 --> 00:36:02.710
And she's uh she talks about she's afraid she's not brave.
00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:06.630
And so closing the store is the brave decision to to make.
00:36:07.430 --> 00:36:21.830
And I feel like Nora Efron wrote that to kind of give cover, kind of kind of say, like, this is Kathleen's, she's being guided to what she actually wants.
00:36:21.990 --> 00:36:22.390
Yes.
00:36:22.630 --> 00:36:23.269
Yeah.
00:36:23.830 --> 00:36:24.550
Completely.
00:36:24.950 --> 00:36:26.310
I completely agree with you.
00:36:26.550 --> 00:36:30.710
I mean, at the end of the day, Efron is also a businesswoman, right?
00:36:30.950 --> 00:36:32.870
She needs a story that will sell.
00:36:33.430 --> 00:36:43.030
And you can't write a romance that like doesn't leave you with the ick where the core action is a small business being put out of business.
00:36:43.110 --> 00:36:50.390
Yeah if there isn't that sort of backup, that backstop that this is the universe working in mysterious ways to give Kathleen what she actually wants.
00:36:51.590 --> 00:36:54.550
And so, yes, I I agree with you.
00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:57.670
I and I'm sure that was a calculated decision on Efron's part.
00:36:57.830 --> 00:36:58.070
Yes.
00:36:58.230 --> 00:37:01.110
But and I mean she this is the story she wanted to tell.
00:37:01.190 --> 00:37:02.950
Like this is the romance she wanted to tell.
00:37:03.030 --> 00:37:10.230
The, the, the Darcy Lizzie, the um whatever the parfumerie was that I wasn't familiar with.
00:37:10.390 --> 00:37:15.990
You know, so how do you like modernize it and still make it okay?
00:37:16.150 --> 00:37:20.230
Like she had some constraints and sh and she she gave them to us.
00:37:20.630 --> 00:37:23.030
Did she do us a service by doing that?
00:37:23.269 --> 00:37:24.550
That's a different question.
00:37:25.190 --> 00:37:27.670
And I think that's what's making you uncomfortable.
00:37:28.070 --> 00:37:42.470
Well, I I think it would be so interesting if Kathleen Kelly, if it were Kelly Books that was the giant corporation and Fox Books that was the little book, little bookshop and switch the genders.
00:37:42.710 --> 00:37:43.350
Yeah.
00:37:43.670 --> 00:37:45.510
That becomes a very different story.
00:37:45.670 --> 00:37:49.750
And frankly, if Efron were still alive, it would be a much harder one for her to write.
00:37:50.070 --> 00:37:53.990
Because of the scene that you saw, that you you brought up with Rose.
00:37:54.789 --> 00:37:59.590
Like there is a sort of universal hatred of the feminine, you know.
00:37:59.830 --> 00:38:09.350
So and the and the feminine assertive, the feminine entrepreneur, the feminine like powerful, all the more hated.
00:38:09.750 --> 00:38:11.750
Well, and that's that's exactly so.
00:38:11.830 --> 00:38:18.710
Parker Posey, who I love, who plays Patricia, who's not right for Joe, she is ridiculed.
00:38:19.350 --> 00:38:22.950
That character is ridiculed for being so cutthroat.
00:38:24.470 --> 00:38:32.230
And part of what I love about part of the reason why I love that actor is that um she commits and doesn't give a shit.
00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:40.789
All of her characters are are that kind of um she got Moxie.
00:38:40.950 --> 00:38:43.269
Like, I don't know how else to describe it.
00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:59.269
So her demeanor is kind of punished for being like when we first meet her, she says, so-and-so just got a literary award.
00:38:59.350 --> 00:39:00.870
He's gonna be insufferable.
00:39:01.030 --> 00:39:03.670
Oh, and such and such just died.
00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:06.230
So that's one more person I'm not talking to.
00:39:06.870 --> 00:39:09.430
Or one less person I'm not talking to.
00:39:10.870 --> 00:39:11.990
I love her.
00:39:12.310 --> 00:39:14.870
She is completely oblivious.
00:39:15.110 --> 00:39:17.750
And that's also kind of fabulous.
00:39:18.070 --> 00:39:24.550
So she is the one that you're remembering who who is like, I want to offer her a job as a children's book editor.
00:39:24.710 --> 00:39:28.230
She's got flawless taste, she's she's famous for it.
00:39:28.470 --> 00:39:29.750
She knows every book.
00:39:29.910 --> 00:39:36.390
And there's a moment where Kathleen says, like, you know, she she offered me a job and like she didn't take it.
00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:44.230
And the thing is, like, that would be a better position for Kathleen to be in financially than writing books.
00:39:44.550 --> 00:39:45.190
Yeah.
00:39:45.430 --> 00:39:45.830
Yeah.
00:39:46.070 --> 00:39:47.830
Ask me how I know that.
00:39:50.390 --> 00:39:58.070
And what Kathleen is being punished for in the scene in the grocery store is trying to break the rules.
00:39:58.470 --> 00:39:59.110
Yeah.
00:39:59.910 --> 00:40:00.470
Yeah.
00:40:00.950 --> 00:40:03.030
We're we're running short on time.
00:40:03.269 --> 00:40:08.630
I would actually, there's a bunch of stuff you listed in the beginning from your postcards, and we're not going to get to all of them.
00:40:08.870 --> 00:40:13.510
But I would like to invite you to unpack why you think this film is so beloved.
00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:18.950
Like the way you said it to me before we hit record was like why this film works.
00:40:19.430 --> 00:40:21.190
And then you said why it's so beloved.
00:40:21.430 --> 00:40:25.590
So I would, I would love to like hear a little, I would love to hear you unpack that a little bit.
00:40:25.670 --> 00:40:31.830
And we can save some of your other postcards for our show We Forgot to Say, which is a patrons only exclusive over on our Patreon.
00:40:32.230 --> 00:40:34.789
So there are several things that I think work really well.
00:40:34.950 --> 00:40:37.670
Now, some of it is like the central pairing.
00:40:37.910 --> 00:40:42.310
As we said, like uh Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan have insane chemistry.
00:40:43.190 --> 00:40:57.750
But I think there's also a kind of coziness to the way that the set design and the filming of New York, which is an odd thing to say about New York.
00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:02.150
Yeah, cozy's not a word that usually cozy's not a word you think of with New York.
00:41:02.470 --> 00:41:14.550
But considering this is about bookstores, it's a just a warm way of directing all of this.
00:41:14.710 --> 00:41:17.269
And it's it's cozy in terms of the set design.
00:41:17.350 --> 00:41:18.630
And not necessarily set design.
00:41:18.710 --> 00:41:25.190
Some of it's just like, because I think the the book, the store that they used as the set for Shop Around the Corner was a real store.
00:41:25.269 --> 00:41:28.550
It was a really antique store that they used for the for the filming.
00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:35.110
And then however they designed the Fox store, also really, really well done.
00:41:35.430 --> 00:41:39.190
It feels cozy, as do the apartments that that we see.
00:41:39.430 --> 00:41:50.070
But then also the exterior shots through autumn, winter, and spring of New York, it is the platonic ideal of New York.
00:41:50.789 --> 00:41:56.310
It's not the trash-ridden, ugly, gross New York.
00:41:56.470 --> 00:42:03.190
Although you do sometimes see, because there's a point where Kathleen is like in a wonderful mood and she's like, isn't it the most beautiful day?
00:42:03.269 --> 00:42:04.710
Don't you love New York in the autumn?
00:42:04.870 --> 00:42:07.910
And you see it like a car accident happening behind her.
00:42:08.310 --> 00:42:13.510
So like you do see that like New York isn't perfect, but it's still like there's something very cozy about it.
00:42:13.590 --> 00:42:18.870
So it's a it's a a comfort movie, which is part of the reason why I kept watching it.
00:42:19.910 --> 00:42:32.550
And so there's there's that aspect of it that I think is is just delightful that Nora Efron I think has has a like a really good handle on.
00:42:33.430 --> 00:42:41.670
And then the humor, it's can be laugh out loud, funny, but it's also just kind of gentle.
00:42:41.990 --> 00:42:59.750
So early on, when the aunt and brother, so the little the kids are being dropped off, the brother's mother has come with the nanny, Nanny Maureen, saying, Nanny Maureen can come with you if you're worried about being able to handle the kids all day.
00:42:59.990 --> 00:43:03.590
And so the kids tell Joe, Nanny Maureen's getting divorced.
00:43:03.750 --> 00:43:08.950
And Nanny Maureen says, Yes, I've learned never marry a man who lies.
00:43:15.750 --> 00:43:22.630
And Joe turns to Annabelle, the his his aunt, and says, That's a good thing to remember.
00:43:23.830 --> 00:43:28.230
Although he should also mention it to Little Matt as well, just in case.
00:43:29.110 --> 00:43:33.830
So like little moments like that where it's just like it takes its time.
00:43:34.870 --> 00:43:45.510
Although that also sets up a joke later on, because Matthew's mother, though the little boy's mother, ends up leaving Joe's father for Nanny Maureen.
00:43:45.830 --> 00:43:46.150
Oh.
00:43:47.510 --> 00:43:51.269
And you kind of see when they when when they're they get interested in each other.
00:43:51.430 --> 00:43:54.150
So like that that's that's a little running joke in the background.
00:43:54.310 --> 00:44:10.310
So there's there's these kind of little moments are are also just just like there was a book that I read called Between by LL Starling that is like 750 pages.
00:44:10.950 --> 00:44:18.070
And it if it were traditionally published, it would have been cut down to probably 350 pages.
00:44:18.630 --> 00:44:21.269
But I adore it as it is.
00:44:21.350 --> 00:44:26.230
And the way that I recommend it is like if you are looking for a book where each scene builds upon.
00:44:26.710 --> 00:44:28.789
Alas to an inevitable conclusion.
00:44:28.870 --> 00:44:30.070
This is not the book for you.
00:44:30.310 --> 00:44:37.510
But if you are willing to let the writer take you on like different trails and pathways, side quests.
00:44:37.750 --> 00:44:39.990
Side quests that are delightful.
00:44:40.630 --> 00:44:43.030
Take this and let the author take you by the hand.
00:44:43.350 --> 00:44:45.670
And you think that that's what this movie's like?
00:44:46.390 --> 00:44:47.350
A little bit.
00:44:47.590 --> 00:44:50.789
Like I think we get Ephron's wit through these little side things.
00:44:51.110 --> 00:44:53.510
Ephron's wit through through these side things.
00:44:54.070 --> 00:45:06.950
Like she she is, and part of it is because like she was at the top of her game, and there are not that many women directors, but she was Nora freaking Ephron and no one was gonna be telling her what to do.
00:45:07.269 --> 00:45:08.230
Did she direct it as well?
00:45:08.470 --> 00:45:09.269
She did, yes.
00:45:09.430 --> 00:45:15.430
Oh she takes her time and she like settles in to the scenes.
00:45:15.750 --> 00:45:17.590
Like nothing is forced.
00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:21.830
It's like a comfortable cardigan.
00:45:24.550 --> 00:45:31.830
So I'm hearing that it's about the pacing, it's about the wit and the humor.
00:45:32.070 --> 00:45:36.870
You didn't mention my favorite thing, which this movie has in space, which is d dramatic irony.
00:45:37.110 --> 00:45:37.670
Oh yes.
00:45:37.990 --> 00:45:40.950
Because we have dramatic irony from the beginning.
00:45:41.510 --> 00:45:49.830
Like we, the viewer, know that Kathleen is shop girl and Joe is NY152.
00:45:49.910 --> 00:45:51.750
Like we know that from the very beginning, right?
00:45:51.990 --> 00:45:57.269
And then we know that Joe knows that Kathleen is shop girl and Kathleen doesn't know.
00:45:57.510 --> 00:46:08.870
Like, and so there's like dramatic irony, like layers of it throughout this film that I know I'm not alone in finding that kind of sort of insider knowledge, if you will.
00:46:09.030 --> 00:46:10.310
Like, I I don't know if that's the right word.
00:46:10.470 --> 00:46:11.830
I don't know if insider is the right word.
00:46:11.910 --> 00:46:16.310
It's it's almost like an omnipotence that because it's delicious.
00:46:16.550 --> 00:46:17.590
It it really is.
00:46:17.750 --> 00:46:21.030
Because, you know, we completely relate with Kathleen.
00:46:21.110 --> 00:46:24.150
Like there's a self-insert there, but we know more than she knows.
00:46:24.310 --> 00:46:29.030
And so there's like a satisfaction in that that feels safe.
00:46:29.830 --> 00:46:30.070
Right.
00:46:30.150 --> 00:46:40.789
Because part of what is is unsafe, not literally physically dangerous, but you know, emotionally unsafe for Kathleen is the fact that she doesn't know that Joe is NY152.
00:46:40.950 --> 00:46:41.510
We do know.
00:46:41.910 --> 00:46:44.550
So we have sort of a a certain degree of safety in that.
00:46:44.789 --> 00:46:57.350
I think that the all the things you named, the chemistry between the two leads, the wit, the pacing, the writing is is amazing, the direction like is like comfortable.
00:46:57.670 --> 00:47:00.630
And the dramatic irony is very satisfying.
00:47:01.590 --> 00:47:01.990
Yeah.
00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:02.390
Yeah.
00:47:02.630 --> 00:47:08.950
But I do want to talk about before we finish up, it's kind of irony, but it's kind of not.
00:47:09.430 --> 00:47:15.510
The irony of the fact that this film is about the destruction of a small business.
00:47:16.390 --> 00:47:21.269
And it's it's a two-hour commercial for America Online, and it is full of product placement.
00:47:21.430 --> 00:47:25.430
There's there's Starbucks, there's Visa, there's um Apple computers.
00:47:26.150 --> 00:47:28.710
I say it's kind of irony because it's not.
00:47:29.350 --> 00:47:33.030
Because she ends up with the multimillionaire.
00:47:33.350 --> 00:47:36.470
Like it's okay that she lost her business.
00:47:36.630 --> 00:47:39.830
Like the destruction of the small business is not a big deal.
00:47:39.990 --> 00:47:43.670
And so, like it's not, it's only as bad as being stood up, apparently.
00:47:43.910 --> 00:47:44.390
Yes.
00:47:44.630 --> 00:47:45.269
Yes.
00:47:45.590 --> 00:47:55.590
It's so odd that this film sort of glances at it, flicks at like capitalism is bad.
00:47:55.830 --> 00:48:00.150
Capitalism destroys these institutions, these neighborhood institutions.
00:48:00.310 --> 00:48:07.269
Capitalism does not have the deep knowledge of neighborhoods, does not have deep knowledge of literature.
00:48:07.430 --> 00:48:14.310
Um so it flicks at that, but at the same time, like this is the movie that capitalism built.
00:48:14.550 --> 00:48:19.750
And uh, you know, Kathleen embraces capitalism pretty much.
00:48:20.230 --> 00:48:24.390
Well, I mean, let's be let's be clear, she is also a like at least a merchant.
00:48:24.550 --> 00:48:25.590
I mean, she owns a merchant.
00:48:26.310 --> 00:48:35.269
Like, and I we don't need to like go get into the actual like definitions of mercantilism versus capitalism, but the pursuit of profit, right?
00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:39.110
Like the pursuit of profit is is more precise.
00:48:39.350 --> 00:48:41.590
What is sort of the big bad here?
00:48:41.910 --> 00:48:44.230
Well, late stage capitalism, let's put it that way.
00:48:45.030 --> 00:48:45.670
Yeah.
00:48:46.070 --> 00:48:46.390
Yeah.
00:48:46.550 --> 00:49:14.789
And that there's a it's interesting, like that you kind of name like irony, but not irony, because there's a degree to which, and I don't know where where Afron would have fallen out on this, but there's a degree to which it's like so inevitable that like Kathleen is like forced to embrace it or die, you know, in the same way that the closure of the shop around the corner was inevitable from the start of this movie.
00:49:15.750 --> 00:49:18.789
Like, Kathleen doesn't have a choice.
00:49:18.950 --> 00:49:22.950
If she wants to keep going, she has to embrace it.
00:49:23.110 --> 00:49:29.670
Like in the same way that like you're a finance writer and you always tell me money is a delusion.
00:49:29.750 --> 00:49:30.870
It's a shared delusion.
00:49:30.950 --> 00:49:31.990
It doesn't actually exist.
00:49:32.150 --> 00:49:35.910
And I believe you, but I can't opt out of the delusion.
00:49:36.150 --> 00:49:38.310
Well, that's because I still have to live in the world.
00:49:38.710 --> 00:49:52.470
And so I think that that like is a is a is a parallel kind of a structure here that like ultimately, like, yeah, it's a shared delusion, but you gotta live in the world in which everyone else is delusional, so you gotta go along with it.
00:49:52.710 --> 00:49:55.110
The same thing with this late-stage capitalism.
00:49:55.590 --> 00:50:06.870
Well, it's that the film is almost trying to critique that.
00:50:07.670 --> 00:50:07.990
Right.
00:50:08.150 --> 00:50:10.630
It comes right to the edge of critique and then doesn't.
00:50:11.110 --> 00:50:21.350
But at the same time, it's made b because, you know, AOL and and uh Apple and Starbucks and Visa gave a whole hell of a lot of money for it.
00:50:21.830 --> 00:50:22.310
Right.
00:50:22.550 --> 00:50:23.030
Right.
00:50:23.269 --> 00:50:23.750
Yeah.
00:50:24.070 --> 00:50:25.510
So it's sort of the same.
00:50:25.670 --> 00:50:30.390
Like and I I don't know how to feel about that.
00:50:30.710 --> 00:50:32.710
Yeah, I totally hear that.
00:50:33.830 --> 00:50:34.470
Yeah.
00:50:38.070 --> 00:50:39.990
All right, let me see if I can reflect back.
00:50:40.070 --> 00:50:41.990
We actually talked about quite a bit here.
00:50:43.030 --> 00:50:50.789
I'll start with what I think you started with, which is charm covering a lot of sins and specifically Tom Hanks' charm.
00:50:50.950 --> 00:50:53.750
And I think that that's true of Tom Hanks in general as an actor.
00:50:53.830 --> 00:51:03.269
Like he can play these really dickish characters and make us love him anyway, because he got in line three or four times for charm when God was hanging handing out charm.
00:51:03.670 --> 00:51:08.470
But I think there's also a degree that, and this will like feed into another point that you made.
00:51:08.630 --> 00:51:27.590
There's a degree to which it's about Tom Hanks, but there's a degree to which it's just about charm and specifically good-looking male charm, especially when we contrast that to, you know, the cost of being female, where it doesn't matter how fucking charming you are.
00:51:27.750 --> 00:51:33.190
You could be, you could be goddamn Meg Ryan and still get the stink eye in the grocery line.
00:51:33.350 --> 00:51:36.950
And that is a something that's true.
00:51:37.110 --> 00:52:03.269
And the way that you named this, which I think is true of Efron, Nora Efron, not just in this movie, but in I think all of her writing, where she reflects reality to us in such a relatable way that we resonate, we feel the resonance with the vibration of reality, and we find that comforting and satisfying because we have lived it and somebody is reflecting it back to us.
00:52:03.510 --> 00:52:11.350
And because of that, because of that resonance with reality, that same frequency as reality, we're too close to it to critique it.
00:52:11.510 --> 00:52:19.750
And so it's all of these years later that we're looking back on it and going, oh, wow, that's actually really fucked up.
00:52:20.950 --> 00:52:23.110
And and and like and infuriating.
00:52:23.190 --> 00:52:24.710
That's the word that you used.
00:52:24.950 --> 00:52:34.070
And I think that that is true, not just in this film, like when we looked at Ali of their own, which is another Ephron written, not directed piece.
00:52:34.550 --> 00:52:40.070
Or when Harry met Sally, we also did when Harry met Sally, which is another Ephron written, not directed piece.
00:52:40.390 --> 00:52:57.910
That that's one of was one of Nora Efron's gifts was the way that she was able to show us in a story something that so deeply reflected reality that millions of us who've lived totally different lives all are like, oh yeah, I see myself in that.
00:52:58.230 --> 00:53:05.350
And because we see ourselves in it, I think it's too close for us to recognize how absolutely infuriating the thing is that she's showing us.
00:53:05.510 --> 00:53:08.390
Because she didn't say to us, look at this, it's infuriating.
00:53:08.630 --> 00:53:09.910
She said, Look at this.
00:53:10.150 --> 00:53:11.830
And we were like, Yeah, I've seen that.
00:53:12.310 --> 00:53:16.150
I think that's an interesting point about storytelling and about cultural critique.
00:53:17.190 --> 00:53:23.030
If it were a different sort of thing, we might say, like, as we sometimes say on this show, like, I'm not mad at Nore Ephron, I'm mad at society.
00:53:25.430 --> 00:53:38.070
You talked about the fact that New York, as portrayed in this movie, is almost cozy, which is not a word that one ordinarily associates with the city of New York.
00:53:38.870 --> 00:53:44.550
But you named that the New York of this movie is like the Platonic ideal of New York.
00:53:44.870 --> 00:53:59.350
And the coziness is c conveyed through that platonic ideal of everything that's good about living in a city, a big city like New York, and also the actual set designs of the apartments in which we find ourselves and the two bookstores in which we find ourselves.
00:53:59.510 --> 00:54:06.710
So that was sort of an interesting point, which contributed to why people find this movie beloved or what works about it.
00:54:06.870 --> 00:54:08.789
So that was one piece of what works about it.
00:54:08.950 --> 00:54:19.110
Another piece is the like, in your words, bonkers chemistry between Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, which you by which you mean like really, really off the charts.
00:54:19.269 --> 00:54:23.430
Like again, these two people stood in line for chemistry multiple times.
00:54:24.550 --> 00:54:34.870
There's also the wit and the humor of Efron that's sort of like slow and gentle, and the pacing, which is also somewhat gentle.
00:54:35.110 --> 00:54:36.470
All those things go together.
00:54:36.630 --> 00:54:39.190
You use the metaphor of like a cozy cardigan.
00:54:39.430 --> 00:54:47.430
I added to that conversation the dramatic irony that runs through this film, which is so satisfying to viewers and readers.
00:54:47.830 --> 00:54:49.190
I feel like I'm forgetting something.
00:54:49.350 --> 00:55:10.070
Oh, you named some of the supporting actors in this film who just are really, really great, including Parker Posey and Steve Zahn, and you named Grant Greg Kinnear as well, who are not sort of the headline, like they're not the first billing actors in anything, I don't think, but are just really incredible actors.
00:55:10.390 --> 00:55:34.150
And then we talked about the irony and not irony of this film, which is a two-hour commercial for America Online with product placements for lots of other brands that's about the destruction of small businesses, but is also like a major, you know, studio motion picture and is itself a product.
00:55:34.310 --> 00:55:42.230
And that led to us having a conversation about the fact that sort of yeah, it's late-stage capitalism, but you gotta keep going.
00:55:42.310 --> 00:55:46.470
Like money's a delusion, but we're all sharing the delusion and you gotta live in the world.
00:55:46.550 --> 00:55:49.830
And maybe there's a certain extent to which Efron was doing that.
00:55:50.150 --> 00:55:52.550
I I think there's something I forgot.
00:55:53.110 --> 00:55:57.750
Oh, the the fact that you named in the storytelling that Efron had to make it okay.
00:55:57.990 --> 00:55:58.470
Oh, yes.
00:55:59.030 --> 00:56:13.510
She won she gave us this Kathleen Kelly, as opposed to sort of earlier versions of this character, has more power and agency insofar as she's a business owner and not just like a sh a perfume counter girl.
00:56:13.910 --> 00:56:14.789
Shop girl.
00:56:15.110 --> 00:56:18.310
Sh she's a shop, she is a shop girl, but she's also the shop owner.
00:56:18.710 --> 00:56:21.430
And so she gave her more power and agency by doing that.
00:56:21.670 --> 00:56:32.710
But but then this the sort of rivalry that ends in the destruction of the bookshop, the shop around the corner, she needed to make us okay with the fact that the shop closed.
00:56:32.870 --> 00:57:06.230
And so there was this backstory piece about how Kathleen's worried that she's living too small and that she's not sure if the shop is actually her dream, and she's not sure if she's brave, so that then we can see that Fox and Sons putting her out of business was actually the universe working in her favor to give her what she actually wanted, which is this is one of those things where, like, I think Efron, I mean, this is a little bit Efron living in that capitalism where she has to sell this movie to us as viewers.
00:57:06.470 --> 00:57:16.550
I think it's also a little bit like you as a storyteller noticing that seam and being like, that's not as tight as I would like.
00:57:16.789 --> 00:57:17.030
Right.
00:57:17.190 --> 00:57:27.990
Like we use this metaphor often because of an uncle of ours whose family grew up in the garment business who taught you to like look at the seams to know if things were quality.
00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:38.150
So I think this is you seeing the seams in this thing and seeing the hand of the storyteller in a more manipulative way than you like.
00:57:38.470 --> 00:57:47.190
You prefer it to be a little like more natural, like this, they're just sort of showing you something rather than seeing the hand of the storyteller going, here, believe this.
00:57:49.110 --> 00:57:57.990
And I and I I think that's in my opinion, that's what led to your discomfort at sort of recognizing that Efron did that on purpose.
00:57:58.070 --> 00:57:59.030
Like, of course she did.
00:57:59.269 --> 00:58:00.470
She did everything on purpose.
00:58:00.710 --> 00:58:01.030
Yeah.
00:58:01.269 --> 00:58:03.910
So now I think I captured everything.
00:58:04.150 --> 00:58:06.150
Yeah, I think that I think that was everything.
00:58:06.470 --> 00:58:07.110
Cool.
00:58:07.830 --> 00:58:08.150
Okay.
00:58:08.630 --> 00:58:09.750
Uh, this was fun.
00:58:09.910 --> 00:58:16.710
Next week, Emily, I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts about the film Short Circuits about the robot.
00:58:16.870 --> 00:58:17.750
Do you remember Johnny Five?
00:58:18.070 --> 00:58:18.789
Johnny Five.
00:58:18.950 --> 00:58:19.110
Yeah.
00:58:19.750 --> 00:58:20.630
And Ali Sheedy.
00:58:20.789 --> 00:58:20.950
Yeah.
00:58:21.190 --> 00:58:21.910
Who's Johnny?
00:58:21.990 --> 00:58:22.310
She's it.
00:58:22.550 --> 00:58:22.870
She's it.
00:58:23.110 --> 00:58:23.750
Anyway.
00:58:24.390 --> 00:58:26.150
So looking forward to that.
00:58:26.230 --> 00:58:35.190
Um, listeners, if you want to, we are going to record the things that Emily didn't get to in our shit we forgot to say about You've Got Mail, head over to our Patreon and you can take a listen.
00:58:35.430 --> 00:58:36.630
Thanks for listening.
00:58:36.789 --> 00:58:41.990
Our theme music is Professor Umlaut by Kevin McLeod from Incompotech.com.
00:58:42.310 --> 00:58:44.550
Find full music credits in the show notes.
00:58:44.710 --> 00:58:49.110
Until next time, remember pop culture is still culture.
00:58:49.269 --> 00:58:51.510
And shouldn't you know what's in your head?