Ryan Does: For this episode we are diving into a foggy, atmospheric, and quite frankly, beautiful gothic world in n in 1990s horror. This is Deconstructing Horror. My name is Ryan, and today we are talking about Tim Burton's 1999 masterpiece, Sleepy Hollow. It is Halloween season. And I wanted something with that autumn, autumnal, fall vibe. But there's no orange leaves in this, there's no red leaves in this. It's it's a Tim Burton movie through and through. so before we talk about the eccentric performance of Johnny Depp and a a stunning world brought to life by Tim Burton based on the original Washington Irving short story, which is also a personal favorite of mine, I wanted to welcome my guest. Sari is back. back to discuss a a Halloween movie. We last spoke about the fly, and since then we have been to Theology Beer Camp, we've had a good time there. But Sari, may reintroduce yourself to people and tell what lens you're bringing to our discussion of Sleepy Hollow.
Sarey: Sure thing. My name is Sari. And I am an artist, a filmmaker, and I also do some marketing consulting. I have a master's in theology and have studied psychology quite a bit. I have a background working in the entertainment industry. And as I mentioned last time I was on, I worked with Rob Zombie for many years. And so I got to that's where I really got hands-on experience. with in the filmmaking world, saw how the sausage is made from develop screen scri writing the script, development, production, post production, distribution, all the things. and where I really fell in love with the filmmaking process. It took me a long time to admit that I wanted to become a director, but then
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: once I once I got a taste of directing, I I was like, my God, this is the best. So yeah, so I come at at films with that. kind of storytelling, vibe making lens as well as, you know, the the sort of theological and psychological perspective as well. I love a good genre film, either horror or sci-fi, that also talks about, you know, human psychology and spirituality in a way that is complex and, you know, it's just more fun than doing it in the real world.
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: I'd rather do it in Sleepy Hollow, frankly.
Ryan Does: Ca like if 'cause if we talk about it with Tim Burton, Sleepy Hollow, we can talk about a headless horseman and and a spooky bloody
Sarey: Exactly. Exactly.
Ryan Does: tree. yeah, there's there's so mu like
Sarey: This is a rated R movie which I kind of was like, I wondered I don't I think s
Ryan Does: I've I didn't realize that.
Sarey: yeah, I I think I mean it's pretty there's a lot of blood. It's pretty bloody and you see like the you know, the decapitated neck many times,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: you know? It's really gooey. it's pretty violent. I remember seeing it in the theater when it came out and you know, it it I I don't know, it was was was Everett Scissor Hands? I think it was P G thirteen. I'm not sure. Maybe writ maybe not, but
Ryan Does: That probably was PG thirteen.
Sarey: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, it just felt very dark. I remember when it came out. Very and there's like there's the part with the mom and the blood coming out of the th you know, it's like it's bloody. It's bloody Or the tree
Ryan Does: So
Sarey: the the tree's bleeding, you know. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Let's fall out. Yeah. It's crazy.
Ryan Does: Right. The tree just opens up and a bunch of heads fall out. It it's maybe maybe the way I should have said that, Sari, is that I did not like knowing about this movie and knowing like it's a it's it's a nineties Johnny Depp performance so he's gonna be a little quirky and Christina Ricci's
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: in this. I'm like, my gosh. You know like the
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: the king and queen of nineties goths are kind of just like here and they're they're they're here to be spooky and creepy. I but I
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: didn't like I didn't think it was gonna be like a bloody movie. And I know that's ridiculous because if you're listening to this right now you're like The villain is the headless horseman who is known
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: for decapitating people. And like yeah, but like when I think of Sleepy Hollow, I think of the old Disney like Ichabod movie and which
Sarey: Yeah yeah.
Ryan Does: beautiful in its own right. but this movie was phenomenal. I put it on just randomly, and then I asked Sari if she would want to talk about a Halloween movie, and we landed on Sleepy Hollow. So w what was your like personal history with maybe just Tim Burton in general, but then like then Sleepy Hollow.
Sarey: Yeah. I was already a big like Tim Nurton Tim Nurton. Tim Burton nerd. by the time this movie came out, which was ninety-nine. I I had read Burton on Burton, which was his autobiography, because I loved Edward Scissorhands so much. And you know, I think if you're growing up and you feel like an outsider, you know, that was what Tim Burton did. He made movies about feeling like an outsider. There's also a little book of like I don't know what you'd call them, like little poetic short stories that he wrote called The Melancholy
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: Death of Oyster Boy and other sad stories. And they were all these just like little sketches of like sad little characters that were all like weird. None of them were real humans. Like Oyster Boy like an oyster head and a human body, you know. And they were all tragic. Like they all die. It was really dark. but anyway, I was really attached to To Tim Burton. I remember reading that he got a start animating at Disney. Like he actually worked on the fox and the hound and
Ryan Does: What?
Sarey: was like, yeah, he was miserable. They had him they had him drawing like the backgrounds because they knew he wasn't like he didn't like drawing these cute little animals. So, you know, that animation background. and then so yeah, and I also love Ed Wood, he's a favorite of mine. you know, talk about Johnny Depp. Like, Johnny Depp was very good in these early roles and very weird, but still had a s an emotional sincerity. It wasn't like quirky, you know. And
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: I feel like that starts to tip later on. He's not as good anymore, and I will just v virtue signal and say he's problematic in a lot of ways. but
Ryan Does: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarey: this is a time when I think he still had it. I think that you start to see like I recently only recently watched the Alice in Wonderland that Tim Burton did. And he plays
Ryan Does: Yeah, yeah.
Sarey: the Mad Hatter, and you start to feel like he's dialing it in and just doing this kind of like weird guy bit
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: that he's, you know. I don't know how people feel about that, but then and then, you know, just doing this McJagger thing as a pirate, like over rinse and repeat what, like eight eight times.
Ryan Does: Well there's a lot of people that only know him as Jackson.
Sarey: I know what the fuck? Like Honestly to me it's so bad. Like I can't stomach that hardly at all. I I
Ryan Does: You can't you can't stomach Captain Jack.
Sarey: can't no. I was never charmed by it. I was like, what no I don't know. Uhhuh.
Ryan Does: So so I'm interested to see if this elicits any reaction out of you. But the first Johnny Depp movie I remember watching as a k as a kid was his movie Benny and June.
Sarey: yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: And he makes he the the only scene for the movie that I can give you, well, two actually is he makes two pieces of waffle dance with forks and then
Sarey: Yeah, with the forks, yeah.
Ryan Does: he he makes grilled cheese on an ironing board. Did I try that as a
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: kid? Hell yes I did. Was my mom pissed? Absolutely. That is that
Sarey: Yeah, yeah, to Yeah. That's a real classic nineties movie. And you remember like seeing the cover of it in Blockbuster when I was walking
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: around in there with my family. yeah, that's that's a yeah, that's an
Ryan Does: He's a vibe.
Sarey: iconic Johnny Dubb. Yeah, he's fine. so anyway, like I said, I saw Sleepy Hollow in the theater when it came out and and had a good time. It was it's it's like not one of my favorite Tim Burton movies, but it's it is beautiful, as you said. Like I rewatched it in prep for this, and I think it's on 2B for free if you anyone
Ryan Does: His
Sarey: wants to watch it. So, and yeah, was taken with how beautiful it looked. And it has that really like that film quality, you know, it's like that grainy. And then like you can tell in his mind he had this like almost black and white world, with then these like big red. bloody breakthrough moments, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah. And then seeing
Ryan Does: Colour is very sparing. Yeah. But
Sarey: I remember seeing Christina Ricci with her like as this like blonde snow queen,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: you know, when her look was always so dark and like you said, goth like but she had this very light look to her with the blonde hair and the long hair and all the period costume and stuff. And it was different a different way of seeing her.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: I I I thoroughly enjoyed this film because well like I told Sarah I was just sitting here and I was like, you know, I wanna watch a like a a fall movie. I wanna watch something kind of autumnal and you know, I'm in the mood and it was overcast outside. I was like, Sleepy Hollow feels like it's time to rip that band-aid off. And I've always loved the Washington Irving story, which is a very different vibe than what Tim Burton did with
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: and we will talk about that, kind of the difference between the two stories. I'm gonna give a little
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: bit of a deep detailed breakdown of like what what is what this movie is about, in case you are unfamiliar. it is directed by Tim Burton, and it stars Johnny Depp, Christina Ricci, and and also just like a cast of faces that you have seen in other movies. So, Michael Gambin and Richard Griffiths are in this movie. They are from the Harry Potter films, and then Ian McDermott, Darth Sidious, the Emperor in Star Wars himself, is one of the other side characters. Like, there's like it's just like old British. British actors casting call. That's all they were gonna that's all they were doing. it was fantastic cast though. I really enjoyed them as kind of an ensemble playing off of Johnny Depp. It it was fun to watch these characters and scenes together. It was released in November of nineteen ninety nine. And it follows Ichabod Crane, played by Johnny Depp, an eccentric New York City constable who uses primitive forensic science to solve his crimes. Sent upstate to an isolated fog enshrouded village of Sleepy Hollow, sent up there by Sir Christopher Lee. in case you were wondering if they were gonna fit one more old British guy into this. Ichabod is tasked with investigating a series of gruesome decapitations. This superstitious town elders insist that the killer is a Supernatural, vengeful phantom known as the Headless Horseman. Armed with rationalism and a whole bag full of gadgets, Ichabod navigates local conspiracy theories and his growing affection for the mysterious Katrina Van Tassel, played by Christina Ricci, as the spectral rider, Headless Horseman, continues a bloody harvest, the cynical investigator is forced to abandon its strict reliance on Cold Lodge. logic and he delves further and further into the realm of myth and legend. So Siri, thank you. Thank you. I I'm glad
Sarey: Well said, well said.
Ryan Does: I write these out in in ahead of time because otherwise it would be
Sarey: Yes.
Ryan Does: like, yeah, then a writer showed up and he killed a few people and you know ya la da. we talked about your love of Burton as a filmmaker and some you referenced some of his other films. What about his approach to film making, which is a very distinct style? And you know, whether it's animation, whether it's live action, what about his approach to film jumps out at you in in Sleepy Hollow?
Sarey: Mm. I would say this he's a he's a world builder and I think everyone thinks of I I think people think of his aesthetic as kind of like there's an aesthetic everyone thinks of when they think of Tim Burton. I think it's very much influenced actually by Nightmare Before Christmas, honestly.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: which is funny because that was a collaboration with a stop motion animator. It's like very much like influenced by Tim Burton's illustration style, but still like these I th the the movies have their own worlds and own aesthetics. And yeah, they all veer dark, but like the world of Edward Scissor Hands with that like colorful suburban cul-de-sac, that is and this like gothic castle. Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: The juxtaposition between the two.
Sarey: And then like Edwood is all old Hollywood and it's in black and white. It's a black and white film. and then Mars Attacks, which is also I love Mars Attacks. It's got an insane
Ryan Does: What a zany movie.
Sarey: I know, it's just like a wild ensemble cast. There's like a hundred famous people in it. It's crazy. and that's like that's a very colorful world and the aliens have their really interesting look to them. really, truly, yeah.
Ryan Does: What a distinct alien design too. Like that like it is really stuck with kind of pop culture for real.
Sarey: Yep, exactly. And then that was like Tim Burton's girlfriend, Lisa Marie at the time, plays that when when the alien dresses up as a woman to get into the White House and
Ryan Does: Yes.
Sarey: ends up biting off Martin Short's finger. That's that that woman alien is played by Lisa Marie who plays
Ryan Does: interesting.
Sarey: who plays Igwod Crane's mom in the flashbacks. That's the same actress. And that was his girlfriend.
Ryan Does: okay.
Sarey: And I think he cheated on her when They made Planet of the Apes and he switched over to maybe it was
Ryan Does: Fantastic. Okay.
Sarey: before I don't if Helena Bonham Carter was next or anyway, whatever. I I digress. but anyway, so this world feels really cohesive, you know, and the world of Sleepy Hollow, it just I just really appreciate how he creates the world that needs to exist for the story to be told in the way he wants to tell it, you know? And
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: And that that has some flexibility. I mean, he has some signature things, but there's pretty a lot of range in w the films I just described, right?
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: so I that's that's what I really respect. Yeah.
Ryan Does: I so you are by far like you you've been exposed to more Burton than I have been, but th the the Burton movies again across live action and animation that I've seen, his world building it feels so lived in. And I love that you said he creates the world that essentially the story needs. And so Sleepy Hollow It it is only as big as Burton needs it to be. You know, it's it's not this J.R.R. Tolkien level like and this tree has a story, and then that's how it's connected to the other tree. It's like we we all we have
Sarey: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ryan Does: everything we need to understand the story he's trying to tell, but then the world building he does is so like it feels like it's been around for so long and we may not get the full exposition for it, but we know like we don't know the story, but we know that there is a story behind the thing he's trying to do. And I appreciate so much of that feel of a movie. And so few movies that I watch now have that give me that feeling. Like, I wanna know that story that, you know, is barely mentioned or touched on.
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: But I think he does it beautifully, especially in this movie.
Sarey: Agreed. Agreed.
Ryan Does: With with him adapting, a he's done a few adaptations, you know, you mentioned Alice in Wonderland, but this movie is an adaptation of a short story from the early nineteenth century. Like, it's a quite an old piece of literature. I have have you read the original short story, Sari? Okay.
Sarey: I haven't, but I would love for you to illuminate me. I haven't read the original. Yeah.
Ryan Does: So i it really it's it's the story, as stripped down as it can be, of Brombones, Ichabod and Katrina's kind of love triangle and then Brombones I believe, you know, for the interpretation of how the story ends, w I believe Brombones is playing a very Harsh trick on Ichabod, but then Ichabod goes missing, and people don't know what happened to the schoolmaster, but they know that at the Harvest Party the prior night they were talking about legends and they talk about a bunch of different American Revolution era
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: legends and myths from that area. So it's it's it's a movie that really does lev or it's a story that really leverages myth and the power of legend in relation to
Sarey: What is it?
Ryan Does: how people tell stories.
Sarey: Is it more ambiguous whether or not the magic is real or the or is or do you feel like what are you? Okay.
Ryan Does: it's pretty ambiguous. it it's treated with a lot of realism where People are telling stories about like, we're telling a story about Major Andre's tree, which is the dead tree in Burton's version, or
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: we're telling the story about the the the witch of Ravenrock, who's also in this film a version of that character.
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: They're telling these stories and yeah, there's a little bit of like the they're they're real, but it's almost like a scary a scary story to like stay away from that part of the forest or stay away from that part of the of
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: the you know borderland with the next county or whatever. But at the end of the at the end the story, it's very specific, like we never saw Ikabod Crane again. Ever. And we just moved on. And
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: like there's this ambiguity to it. But like in in in Burton's version of it, how do you think he handles the the topic of myths and legends and and the power of kind of those those
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: folktales.
Sarey: Yeah, I yeah, 'cause the movie starts out with Ichabod Crane is trying to reform the justice system because it is so influenced by he what he th he thinks it's irrational. He thinks it's influenced influenced by old fashioned ways of doing things and superstitions and
Ryan Does: Superstition.
Sarey: and that they should have to have evidence to convict a criminal, you know, like very s
Ryan Does: Crazy idea.
Sarey: Yeah, exactly. And you're like, go, okay, wow, he's he's like a justice warrior and he's right, 'cause they're just like throwing people in pits for dumb reasons or whatever into the dungeon. you know, but then he has to go and I was like, this is at first I was like, there's like a real like science versus religion thing going on here, but it's it's not really that. Like, all those old white dudes, all old English actor dudes, they're all like representing institutions.
Ryan Does: That's true, yeah.
Sarey: and there is like there's a doctor's kind of like institution of science and and religion and government, you know, politics and all these like systems that are sort of just like and he ends up discovering a conspiracy, right? By collecting evidence, which is his like rational side. But ultimately he has to embrace like a sense of myth, I was gonna say magic, but I think myth is like a a better way to say. Like he has to kind of embrace that there is he has to sort of integrate myth and magic with science and evidence
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: and empirical data, like in order to come at the truth, the whole truth.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: which ends up he needs he needs it is both, right? You're like, is it Is it the myth and the legend? is it the spiritual world? Is it the the devil? Or is it these guys who are conspiratorial and pulling the strings and all that kind
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: of stuff? And it and ultimately it's both, right? what's interesting though is the witch element. He I'll stop talking soon. I'm monologuing again. But like this,
Ryan Does: No, you That's great.
Sarey: his ch His transformation is him having to realize that, right? And it that he needs both, kinda. And he He his visit to Sleepy Hollow coincides with him having this memory these repressed memories come to him in a dream. And he calls his mom like an innocent, a child of nature, but like she's a witch. She's
Ryan Does: But
Sarey: like she's involved in like w witchcraft practices
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: and his father, who's a man of religion, has her killed. and he remembers all this from when he was a seven-year-old boy. But then there's also a bad witch in the story too, right? Like who wants who wants revenge at a landlord. It's kind of funny, right? Like
Ryan Does: I it feels a little petty, but to a awaken this unstoppable monster to just come decapitate like all the people in your town. It's like I feel like we could have handled this a better way.
Sarey: 'Cause the landlord kick when they were little kids, the landlord kicked out, you know
Ryan Does: Bastard.
Sarey: into the snow. I mean, stakes were higher, but
Ryan Does: man.
Sarey: but anyway, so yeah, really interesting if you think about those elements that you know, and then he realizes like Christine the girl the woman he loves is it has a little like You know, witchcraft practice on the side. It's
Ryan Does: Hey.
Sarey: not like her main thing. But, you know, he sees the pentagram and he just is like, I gotta wash my hands. But then he like looks
Ryan Does: This again.
Sarey: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he recognizes that his swing into empirical science happened because of his father's religiosity.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: But then he's got a swing kind of not he doesn't swing towards really religion, but sort of this embracing Of the something more nice of life
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: of yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: Well like he goes into it so black and white and and the reason why he has this black and white view of what can fix this issue of what can reform the system is because When the system is done in that superstitious way, he's seen people be hurt by it, not only just the prisoners that we see right away at the beginning of the of the movie, but With the flashbacks throughout the movie, we see his mom be harmed by an over-reliance and an over-belief in a a rigidness against superstition. So he also has a rigidness in the beginning of the film against superstition, but also as a like kind of like a protective measure. Because he's seen what
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: that over-rigidness can be hurtful and harmful to others, how that can happen. But when we see him
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: kind of dip his toe over the line and he's like, maybe maybe I course corrected too hard. I think that is something that like I know coming out of a harmful religious tradition, there were moments where I overcorrected too hard. And I became
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: too logical. You kinda like you referenced this in our in our conversation that we did on the fly, where you're like, I'm gonna go to Bible college and I'm gonna solve God. That was kind of me coming out of
Sarey: Because that was the mentality. It's just when you're younger, it's like there's a right answer that you can acquire somewhere if you just think about it hard enough. Yeah.
Ryan Does: Right. And I think maybe you've come across some people like this series where when they come out of a a a bad religious environment, they they keep the mentality of rigidness, but they just s substitute what they're rigid about. And
Sarey: Totally.
Ryan Does: like in that initial like shedding of that, you know, gross, you know
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: religious skin that they're
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: like, No I'm totally different but it's like you're just as hardcore about something different though. that's where I feel like Johnny Depp's character we find him at
Sarey: Yeah. And that's
Ryan Does: the beginning.
Sarey: Yeah, and that's also gonna hinder your ability to kinda get at something meaningful and true if you're
Ryan Does: She
Sarey: it if you're too boundary and for like a system. I feel like that is what is being said.
Ryan Does: With the
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: with the difference in worldview that he and Katrina have, kind of like his over reliance on logic and rationalism, and then her kind of
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: dabbling with, you know, folk folk style religion and charms and he she gives him the book on charms, which I was like, I'll bet that comes in at the end. And then when he gets shot,
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: I'm like, ten bucks says like and
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: Kim my my wife Kim was sitting right there and she's like, no, they're gonna kill him I'm like That book is right there. Come on, that like that come on. but how
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: like their world views, how do you see them kind of play off of each other and then more 'cause we're we're talking about Ichabod's character, how does he evolve and grow as a result of encountering her and what she believes?
Sarey: Yeah, it seems like he has lumped any kind of spirituality, mythos, religion as all like one kind of big bad thing. I think kind of whatever she believes about, you know, the folk religion or or the the paganism of the charm book or whatever, that's kind of I think I think that's kind of in the same category with the religious establishment for him, in terms of its ability to get out something real.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: 'Cause he's seen he's also seen people become you know, victims from you know, ascribing to superstition. When he realizes and the child character who is like his buddy in the movie, you know, he's like he thinks that sh you know, he comes to think that Christina Ricci's character is is bad
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: and into some bad shit. And the kid says, like, but she's loving and tender and kind and generous or something like that. Like, can't you and then he says some crazy line. Like something like about how evil can be packaged in kindness or something like that. and
Ryan Does: Yeah. Interesting line to throw in there.
Sarey: Yeah, it is. And then he flips, like you said, he flips through the book at the in the eleventh hour and it's like, wait, a pentagram is a sign of protection? And it kinda worked like you know, and then that kind of like unwrap that was like the the the straw he needed to break the camel's back, you know, and and kind of realize the
Ryan Does: Yeah. The I
Sarey: truth.
Ryan Does: I think the the part of this that like her approach to him it that really resonated was he's only ever been exposed to how superstition can be harmful and Or how people that are superstitious can be harmed or be harmed 'cause I his mom did not harm him. It was the people around his mom. But
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah.
Ryan Does: when he sees that again that she is she is superstitious in the ways that he's familiar with, but she's also incredibly caring, incredibly loving, and she is trying to go the several times in the film she's gone the extra mile to try and either help him or to make him aware of something. She goes into the deep dark forest after them when
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: they're going to Raven Rock, and that's like off limits. You're not
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: supposed to be out there. And she She goes out there
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: to to help them because she also exists.
Sarey: Yeah, that's the sort of a criticism that I have is like I feel like of this film is that her character is a little inconsistent with her bravery. Like she is
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: really fucking brave sometimes, and then she's like fainting. I think there's a lot of convenient fainting in this movie.
Ryan Does: I love okay, so I loved how much J Johnny Depp faints, I believe, four times in this movie. And
Sarey: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: it's because because he's kind of at the peak of his power in this 90s era of his career, he is so beyond goofy and ridiculous that when he faints
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: four times in this film, I'm just like, is Ichabad the damsel
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: in distress?
Sarey: Yeah, it's pretty funny because he's trying to act so professional and brave, but then he is actually very taken aback by the subject matter that is he's approaching.
Ryan Does: That's true.
Sarey: the one of the funniest parts to me is when they go to visit the witch that's in the woods, the recluse witch that's in the cave, and he's like, ma'am, I make no no assumptions about your vocation or your occupation.
Ryan Does: She's just clearly a witch.
Sarey: She's clearly a witch, there's like heads and skulls and potions and dead animals and like It's hilarious. That was the funniest part to me. Yeah.
Ryan Does: He's i he's also one of those actors that he communicates so much with his eyes too. So like when he's at that table
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: with the witch and he's just like wide eyed the entire time. You're like, No no, I believe you man, this is freaky as hell. man. I I thoroughly enjoyed this point. Right, yeah. But so
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. But she helps him. She's trying to help.
Ryan Does: on the whole, Sari, how how do you think like watching Ichabod's character go through this kind of evolution with his relationship with unexplained, unknown kind of elements that that come across, you know, his very like we've said, rational, logical framework. How what can we learn from that? What can we take from the film and then
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: we'll we'll kind of we'll put a bow on this one.
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Like, what are our takeaways?
Ryan Does: Or maybe just what do you take away from Sleepy Hollow?
Sarey: Yeah. Well, it's sort of interesting, I guess maybe this is still part of our l the last point, but he sort of realizes that even the myth is controlled by principles and rules that can be like observed
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: and followed, you know? Like he's the one that recognized he's not just killing anybody he runs into. This is a pattern, this is a certain bloodline, there's a purpose and there's there's a method to this This madness. So he
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: uses even like empirical observation to deal with the supernatural, which is sort of an interesting like him coming to the hybrid approach to things. you know, I I don't know. I appreciated that this I I appreciated kind of the grayness of it, both aesthetically and
Ryan Does: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarey: ideologically. here in Portland we have our share of witches. You know, they're not the cartoony kind that we might see in films, but you know, people have c you know appreciate the power of nature and the energy of nature and that that is something that I think a lot of people who have left like institutional religion kind of gravitate towards.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: But like you said, there's a swing too far in any kind of direction. And I appreciate the the open heartedness of the ending, where
Ryan Does: Yeah, right.
Sarey: the the compass is is love and justice. but that there are positive and negative applications of these different ideologies and that there is might be a usefulness to switching lenses sometimes and seeing things from another perspective. I
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: I appreciate that. That resonates.
Ryan Does: The benefit of seeing other perspectives makes a lot of sense with this film because we encounter quite a few rigid characters at the beginning, and the ones that really are able to thrive at the end of this film are the ones that give up their rigidness and are able to see something from another person's perspective. And it doesn't guarantee success in maybe the way we traditionally think of success, but They are all the better for it at the end. And I I just going into like Halloween season, I I'm I'm excited to have another movie that I can go back to and be like, I really thoroughly enjoy that movie. And when Halloween comes around and there's that first like nip in the air, like I'm in the Midwest, so like we have a tr you know, kind of a a pretty idyllic fall for like two weeks, and then it gets stupid cold and it starts snowing in October. It's ridiculous. but this is another
Sarey: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: movie I can just put on and i it'll make me have those kind of warm fuzzy feelings but also I can l I can be reminded of kind of what we talked about today. Is there any other final thing about Sleepy Hollow I feel like we need to put in here at the the end?
Sarey: I don't know. I think Christopher Walken as the headless horse
Ryan Does: How do we not talk about this?
Sarey: Why are his teeth pointy?
Ryan Does: To look scary, I assume, and it kinda worked, 'cause Christopher Walken is kind of a striking person in itself,
Sarey: Yes.
Ryan Does: but it's like, you made him scarier. Fantastic. I love that for me.
Sarey: Yeah, it was like they only had him in flashback in the beginning and
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: so they had to allow him to grow his head back so that Christopher Watkin could be in the movie one more time at the end you know.
Ryan Does: Yes. Perfect. And and boy that CGI
Sarey: And he just
Ryan Does: in that head growing back scene. It's good up until
Sarey: yeah.
Ryan Does: they do the like the wacky, like bug eyed things and I was like okay. It all in all, such it's just such a great time and yeah.
Sarey: Mm it looks like Mars attacks for a second. Yeah. Yeah. A lot it's a lot of fun. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Ryan Does: Sari, I'm gonna put the link to your website so people can check out more of Secret Art Project and what you've got going on, whether it's films and art you said you're doing art shows, just kind of everything that you're
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: got going on. I hope people check that out. And if you're
Sarey: Thank you.
Ryan Does: If you're at this point in the video, give it a like, a subscription, you won't miss any upcoming episodes. Leave a comment, what's your favorite part of Sleepy Hollow? I would love to know what what you walked away from this film with. But no matter what, everybody, no matter how you're choosing to celebrate Halloween, what what movies are on your Halloween spooky list? Does Sleepy Hollow make the cut? we just hope that no matter what is going on, you remember that the horrors may persist, but so can we.
Sarey: Sure thing. My name is Sari. And I am an artist, a filmmaker, and I also do some marketing consulting. I have a master's in theology and have studied psychology quite a bit. I have a background working in the entertainment industry. And as I mentioned last time I was on, I worked with Rob Zombie for many years. And so I got to that's where I really got hands-on experience. with in the filmmaking world, saw how the sausage is made from develop screen scri writing the script, development, production, post production, distribution, all the things. and where I really fell in love with the filmmaking process. It took me a long time to admit that I wanted to become a director, but then
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: once I once I got a taste of directing, I I was like, my God, this is the best. So yeah, so I come at at films with that. kind of storytelling, vibe making lens as well as, you know, the the sort of theological and psychological perspective as well. I love a good genre film, either horror or sci-fi, that also talks about, you know, human psychology and spirituality in a way that is complex and, you know, it's just more fun than doing it in the real world.
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: I'd rather do it in Sleepy Hollow, frankly.
Ryan Does: Ca like if 'cause if we talk about it with Tim Burton, Sleepy Hollow, we can talk about a headless horseman and and a spooky bloody
Sarey: Exactly. Exactly.
Ryan Does: tree. yeah, there's there's so mu like
Sarey: This is a rated R movie which I kind of was like, I wondered I don't I think s
Ryan Does: I've I didn't realize that.
Sarey: yeah, I I think I mean it's pretty there's a lot of blood. It's pretty bloody and you see like the you know, the decapitated neck many times,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: you know? It's really gooey. it's pretty violent. I remember seeing it in the theater when it came out and you know, it it I I don't know, it was was was Everett Scissor Hands? I think it was P G thirteen. I'm not sure. Maybe writ maybe not, but
Ryan Does: That probably was PG thirteen.
Sarey: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, it just felt very dark. I remember when it came out. Very and there's like there's the part with the mom and the blood coming out of the th you know, it's like it's bloody. It's bloody Or the tree
Ryan Does: So
Sarey: the the tree's bleeding, you know. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Let's fall out. Yeah. It's crazy.
Ryan Does: Right. The tree just opens up and a bunch of heads fall out. It it's maybe maybe the way I should have said that, Sari, is that I did not like knowing about this movie and knowing like it's a it's it's a nineties Johnny Depp performance so he's gonna be a little quirky and Christina Ricci's
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: in this. I'm like, my gosh. You know like the
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: the king and queen of nineties goths are kind of just like here and they're they're they're here to be spooky and creepy. I but I
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: didn't like I didn't think it was gonna be like a bloody movie. And I know that's ridiculous because if you're listening to this right now you're like The villain is the headless horseman who is known
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: for decapitating people. And like yeah, but like when I think of Sleepy Hollow, I think of the old Disney like Ichabod movie and which
Sarey: Yeah yeah.
Ryan Does: beautiful in its own right. but this movie was phenomenal. I put it on just randomly, and then I asked Sari if she would want to talk about a Halloween movie, and we landed on Sleepy Hollow. So w what was your like personal history with maybe just Tim Burton in general, but then like then Sleepy Hollow.
Sarey: Yeah. I was already a big like Tim Nurton Tim Nurton. Tim Burton nerd. by the time this movie came out, which was ninety-nine. I I had read Burton on Burton, which was his autobiography, because I loved Edward Scissorhands so much. And you know, I think if you're growing up and you feel like an outsider, you know, that was what Tim Burton did. He made movies about feeling like an outsider. There's also a little book of like I don't know what you'd call them, like little poetic short stories that he wrote called The Melancholy
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: Death of Oyster Boy and other sad stories. And they were all these just like little sketches of like sad little characters that were all like weird. None of them were real humans. Like Oyster Boy like an oyster head and a human body, you know. And they were all tragic. Like they all die. It was really dark. but anyway, I was really attached to To Tim Burton. I remember reading that he got a start animating at Disney. Like he actually worked on the fox and the hound and
Ryan Does: What?
Sarey: was like, yeah, he was miserable. They had him they had him drawing like the backgrounds because they knew he wasn't like he didn't like drawing these cute little animals. So, you know, that animation background. and then so yeah, and I also love Ed Wood, he's a favorite of mine. you know, talk about Johnny Depp. Like, Johnny Depp was very good in these early roles and very weird, but still had a s an emotional sincerity. It wasn't like quirky, you know. And
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: I feel like that starts to tip later on. He's not as good anymore, and I will just v virtue signal and say he's problematic in a lot of ways. but
Ryan Does: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarey: this is a time when I think he still had it. I think that you start to see like I recently only recently watched the Alice in Wonderland that Tim Burton did. And he plays
Ryan Does: Yeah, yeah.
Sarey: the Mad Hatter, and you start to feel like he's dialing it in and just doing this kind of like weird guy bit
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: that he's, you know. I don't know how people feel about that, but then and then, you know, just doing this McJagger thing as a pirate, like over rinse and repeat what, like eight eight times.
Ryan Does: Well there's a lot of people that only know him as Jackson.
Sarey: I know what the fuck? Like Honestly to me it's so bad. Like I can't stomach that hardly at all. I I
Ryan Does: You can't you can't stomach Captain Jack.
Sarey: can't no. I was never charmed by it. I was like, what no I don't know. Uhhuh.
Ryan Does: So so I'm interested to see if this elicits any reaction out of you. But the first Johnny Depp movie I remember watching as a k as a kid was his movie Benny and June.
Sarey: yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: And he makes he the the only scene for the movie that I can give you, well, two actually is he makes two pieces of waffle dance with forks and then
Sarey: Yeah, with the forks, yeah.
Ryan Does: he he makes grilled cheese on an ironing board. Did I try that as a
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: kid? Hell yes I did. Was my mom pissed? Absolutely. That is that
Sarey: Yeah, yeah, to Yeah. That's a real classic nineties movie. And you remember like seeing the cover of it in Blockbuster when I was walking
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: around in there with my family. yeah, that's that's a yeah, that's an
Ryan Does: He's a vibe.
Sarey: iconic Johnny Dubb. Yeah, he's fine. so anyway, like I said, I saw Sleepy Hollow in the theater when it came out and and had a good time. It was it's it's like not one of my favorite Tim Burton movies, but it's it is beautiful, as you said. Like I rewatched it in prep for this, and I think it's on 2B for free if you anyone
Ryan Does: His
Sarey: wants to watch it. So, and yeah, was taken with how beautiful it looked. And it has that really like that film quality, you know, it's like that grainy. And then like you can tell in his mind he had this like almost black and white world, with then these like big red. bloody breakthrough moments, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah. And then seeing
Ryan Does: Colour is very sparing. Yeah. But
Sarey: I remember seeing Christina Ricci with her like as this like blonde snow queen,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: you know, when her look was always so dark and like you said, goth like but she had this very light look to her with the blonde hair and the long hair and all the period costume and stuff. And it was different a different way of seeing her.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: I I I thoroughly enjoyed this film because well like I told Sarah I was just sitting here and I was like, you know, I wanna watch a like a a fall movie. I wanna watch something kind of autumnal and you know, I'm in the mood and it was overcast outside. I was like, Sleepy Hollow feels like it's time to rip that band-aid off. And I've always loved the Washington Irving story, which is a very different vibe than what Tim Burton did with
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: and we will talk about that, kind of the difference between the two stories. I'm gonna give a little
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: bit of a deep detailed breakdown of like what what is what this movie is about, in case you are unfamiliar. it is directed by Tim Burton, and it stars Johnny Depp, Christina Ricci, and and also just like a cast of faces that you have seen in other movies. So, Michael Gambin and Richard Griffiths are in this movie. They are from the Harry Potter films, and then Ian McDermott, Darth Sidious, the Emperor in Star Wars himself, is one of the other side characters. Like, there's like it's just like old British. British actors casting call. That's all they were gonna that's all they were doing. it was fantastic cast though. I really enjoyed them as kind of an ensemble playing off of Johnny Depp. It it was fun to watch these characters and scenes together. It was released in November of nineteen ninety nine. And it follows Ichabod Crane, played by Johnny Depp, an eccentric New York City constable who uses primitive forensic science to solve his crimes. Sent upstate to an isolated fog enshrouded village of Sleepy Hollow, sent up there by Sir Christopher Lee. in case you were wondering if they were gonna fit one more old British guy into this. Ichabod is tasked with investigating a series of gruesome decapitations. This superstitious town elders insist that the killer is a Supernatural, vengeful phantom known as the Headless Horseman. Armed with rationalism and a whole bag full of gadgets, Ichabod navigates local conspiracy theories and his growing affection for the mysterious Katrina Van Tassel, played by Christina Ricci, as the spectral rider, Headless Horseman, continues a bloody harvest, the cynical investigator is forced to abandon its strict reliance on Cold Lodge. logic and he delves further and further into the realm of myth and legend. So Siri, thank you. Thank you. I I'm glad
Sarey: Well said, well said.
Ryan Does: I write these out in in ahead of time because otherwise it would be
Sarey: Yes.
Ryan Does: like, yeah, then a writer showed up and he killed a few people and you know ya la da. we talked about your love of Burton as a filmmaker and some you referenced some of his other films. What about his approach to film making, which is a very distinct style? And you know, whether it's animation, whether it's live action, what about his approach to film jumps out at you in in Sleepy Hollow?
Sarey: Mm. I would say this he's a he's a world builder and I think everyone thinks of I I think people think of his aesthetic as kind of like there's an aesthetic everyone thinks of when they think of Tim Burton. I think it's very much influenced actually by Nightmare Before Christmas, honestly.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: which is funny because that was a collaboration with a stop motion animator. It's like very much like influenced by Tim Burton's illustration style, but still like these I th the the movies have their own worlds and own aesthetics. And yeah, they all veer dark, but like the world of Edward Scissor Hands with that like colorful suburban cul-de-sac, that is and this like gothic castle. Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: The juxtaposition between the two.
Sarey: And then like Edwood is all old Hollywood and it's in black and white. It's a black and white film. and then Mars Attacks, which is also I love Mars Attacks. It's got an insane
Ryan Does: What a zany movie.
Sarey: I know, it's just like a wild ensemble cast. There's like a hundred famous people in it. It's crazy. and that's like that's a very colorful world and the aliens have their really interesting look to them. really, truly, yeah.
Ryan Does: What a distinct alien design too. Like that like it is really stuck with kind of pop culture for real.
Sarey: Yep, exactly. And then that was like Tim Burton's girlfriend, Lisa Marie at the time, plays that when when the alien dresses up as a woman to get into the White House and
Ryan Does: Yes.
Sarey: ends up biting off Martin Short's finger. That's that that woman alien is played by Lisa Marie who plays
Ryan Does: interesting.
Sarey: who plays Igwod Crane's mom in the flashbacks. That's the same actress. And that was his girlfriend.
Ryan Does: okay.
Sarey: And I think he cheated on her when They made Planet of the Apes and he switched over to maybe it was
Ryan Does: Fantastic. Okay.
Sarey: before I don't if Helena Bonham Carter was next or anyway, whatever. I I digress. but anyway, so this world feels really cohesive, you know, and the world of Sleepy Hollow, it just I just really appreciate how he creates the world that needs to exist for the story to be told in the way he wants to tell it, you know? And
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: And that that has some flexibility. I mean, he has some signature things, but there's pretty a lot of range in w the films I just described, right?
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: so I that's that's what I really respect. Yeah.
Ryan Does: I so you are by far like you you've been exposed to more Burton than I have been, but th the the Burton movies again across live action and animation that I've seen, his world building it feels so lived in. And I love that you said he creates the world that essentially the story needs. And so Sleepy Hollow It it is only as big as Burton needs it to be. You know, it's it's not this J.R.R. Tolkien level like and this tree has a story, and then that's how it's connected to the other tree. It's like we we all we have
Sarey: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ryan Does: everything we need to understand the story he's trying to tell, but then the world building he does is so like it feels like it's been around for so long and we may not get the full exposition for it, but we know like we don't know the story, but we know that there is a story behind the thing he's trying to do. And I appreciate so much of that feel of a movie. And so few movies that I watch now have that give me that feeling. Like, I wanna know that story that, you know, is barely mentioned or touched on.
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: But I think he does it beautifully, especially in this movie.
Sarey: Agreed. Agreed.
Ryan Does: With with him adapting, a he's done a few adaptations, you know, you mentioned Alice in Wonderland, but this movie is an adaptation of a short story from the early nineteenth century. Like, it's a quite an old piece of literature. I have have you read the original short story, Sari? Okay.
Sarey: I haven't, but I would love for you to illuminate me. I haven't read the original. Yeah.
Ryan Does: So i it really it's it's the story, as stripped down as it can be, of Brombones, Ichabod and Katrina's kind of love triangle and then Brombones I believe, you know, for the interpretation of how the story ends, w I believe Brombones is playing a very Harsh trick on Ichabod, but then Ichabod goes missing, and people don't know what happened to the schoolmaster, but they know that at the Harvest Party the prior night they were talking about legends and they talk about a bunch of different American Revolution era
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: legends and myths from that area. So it's it's it's a movie that really does lev or it's a story that really leverages myth and the power of legend in relation to
Sarey: What is it?
Ryan Does: how people tell stories.
Sarey: Is it more ambiguous whether or not the magic is real or the or is or do you feel like what are you? Okay.
Ryan Does: it's pretty ambiguous. it it's treated with a lot of realism where People are telling stories about like, we're telling a story about Major Andre's tree, which is the dead tree in Burton's version, or
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: we're telling the story about the the the witch of Ravenrock, who's also in this film a version of that character.
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: They're telling these stories and yeah, there's a little bit of like the they're they're real, but it's almost like a scary a scary story to like stay away from that part of the forest or stay away from that part of the of
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: the you know borderland with the next county or whatever. But at the end of the at the end the story, it's very specific, like we never saw Ikabod Crane again. Ever. And we just moved on. And
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: like there's this ambiguity to it. But like in in in Burton's version of it, how do you think he handles the the topic of myths and legends and and the power of kind of those those
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: folktales.
Sarey: Yeah, I yeah, 'cause the movie starts out with Ichabod Crane is trying to reform the justice system because it is so influenced by he what he th he thinks it's irrational. He thinks it's influenced influenced by old fashioned ways of doing things and superstitions and
Ryan Does: Superstition.
Sarey: and that they should have to have evidence to convict a criminal, you know, like very s
Ryan Does: Crazy idea.
Sarey: Yeah, exactly. And you're like, go, okay, wow, he's he's like a justice warrior and he's right, 'cause they're just like throwing people in pits for dumb reasons or whatever into the dungeon. you know, but then he has to go and I was like, this is at first I was like, there's like a real like science versus religion thing going on here, but it's it's not really that. Like, all those old white dudes, all old English actor dudes, they're all like representing institutions.
Ryan Does: That's true, yeah.
Sarey: and there is like there's a doctor's kind of like institution of science and and religion and government, you know, politics and all these like systems that are sort of just like and he ends up discovering a conspiracy, right? By collecting evidence, which is his like rational side. But ultimately he has to embrace like a sense of myth, I was gonna say magic, but I think myth is like a a better way to say. Like he has to kind of embrace that there is he has to sort of integrate myth and magic with science and evidence
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: and empirical data, like in order to come at the truth, the whole truth.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: which ends up he needs he needs it is both, right? You're like, is it Is it the myth and the legend? is it the spiritual world? Is it the the devil? Or is it these guys who are conspiratorial and pulling the strings and all that kind
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: of stuff? And it and ultimately it's both, right? what's interesting though is the witch element. He I'll stop talking soon. I'm monologuing again. But like this,
Ryan Does: No, you That's great.
Sarey: his ch His transformation is him having to realize that, right? And it that he needs both, kinda. And he He his visit to Sleepy Hollow coincides with him having this memory these repressed memories come to him in a dream. And he calls his mom like an innocent, a child of nature, but like she's a witch. She's
Ryan Does: But
Sarey: like she's involved in like w witchcraft practices
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: and his father, who's a man of religion, has her killed. and he remembers all this from when he was a seven-year-old boy. But then there's also a bad witch in the story too, right? Like who wants who wants revenge at a landlord. It's kind of funny, right? Like
Ryan Does: I it feels a little petty, but to a awaken this unstoppable monster to just come decapitate like all the people in your town. It's like I feel like we could have handled this a better way.
Sarey: 'Cause the landlord kick when they were little kids, the landlord kicked out, you know
Ryan Does: Bastard.
Sarey: into the snow. I mean, stakes were higher, but
Ryan Does: man.
Sarey: but anyway, so yeah, really interesting if you think about those elements that you know, and then he realizes like Christine the girl the woman he loves is it has a little like You know, witchcraft practice on the side. It's
Ryan Does: Hey.
Sarey: not like her main thing. But, you know, he sees the pentagram and he just is like, I gotta wash my hands. But then he like looks
Ryan Does: This again.
Sarey: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he recognizes that his swing into empirical science happened because of his father's religiosity.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: But then he's got a swing kind of not he doesn't swing towards really religion, but sort of this embracing Of the something more nice of life
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: of yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: Well like he goes into it so black and white and and the reason why he has this black and white view of what can fix this issue of what can reform the system is because When the system is done in that superstitious way, he's seen people be hurt by it, not only just the prisoners that we see right away at the beginning of the of the movie, but With the flashbacks throughout the movie, we see his mom be harmed by an over-reliance and an over-belief in a a rigidness against superstition. So he also has a rigidness in the beginning of the film against superstition, but also as a like kind of like a protective measure. Because he's seen what
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: that over-rigidness can be hurtful and harmful to others, how that can happen. But when we see him
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: kind of dip his toe over the line and he's like, maybe maybe I course corrected too hard. I think that is something that like I know coming out of a harmful religious tradition, there were moments where I overcorrected too hard. And I became
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: too logical. You kinda like you referenced this in our in our conversation that we did on the fly, where you're like, I'm gonna go to Bible college and I'm gonna solve God. That was kind of me coming out of
Sarey: Because that was the mentality. It's just when you're younger, it's like there's a right answer that you can acquire somewhere if you just think about it hard enough. Yeah.
Ryan Does: Right. And I think maybe you've come across some people like this series where when they come out of a a a bad religious environment, they they keep the mentality of rigidness, but they just s substitute what they're rigid about. And
Sarey: Totally.
Ryan Does: like in that initial like shedding of that, you know, gross, you know
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: religious skin that they're
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: like, No I'm totally different but it's like you're just as hardcore about something different though. that's where I feel like Johnny Depp's character we find him at
Sarey: Yeah. And that's
Ryan Does: the beginning.
Sarey: Yeah, and that's also gonna hinder your ability to kinda get at something meaningful and true if you're
Ryan Does: She
Sarey: it if you're too boundary and for like a system. I feel like that is what is being said.
Ryan Does: With the
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: with the difference in worldview that he and Katrina have, kind of like his over reliance on logic and rationalism, and then her kind of
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: dabbling with, you know, folk folk style religion and charms and he she gives him the book on charms, which I was like, I'll bet that comes in at the end. And then when he gets shot,
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: I'm like, ten bucks says like and
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: Kim my my wife Kim was sitting right there and she's like, no, they're gonna kill him I'm like That book is right there. Come on, that like that come on. but how
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: like their world views, how do you see them kind of play off of each other and then more 'cause we're we're talking about Ichabod's character, how does he evolve and grow as a result of encountering her and what she believes?
Sarey: Yeah, it seems like he has lumped any kind of spirituality, mythos, religion as all like one kind of big bad thing. I think kind of whatever she believes about, you know, the folk religion or or the the paganism of the charm book or whatever, that's kind of I think I think that's kind of in the same category with the religious establishment for him, in terms of its ability to get out something real.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: 'Cause he's seen he's also seen people become you know, victims from you know, ascribing to superstition. When he realizes and the child character who is like his buddy in the movie, you know, he's like he thinks that sh you know, he comes to think that Christina Ricci's character is is bad
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: and into some bad shit. And the kid says, like, but she's loving and tender and kind and generous or something like that. Like, can't you and then he says some crazy line. Like something like about how evil can be packaged in kindness or something like that. and
Ryan Does: Yeah. Interesting line to throw in there.
Sarey: Yeah, it is. And then he flips, like you said, he flips through the book at the in the eleventh hour and it's like, wait, a pentagram is a sign of protection? And it kinda worked like you know, and then that kind of like unwrap that was like the the the straw he needed to break the camel's back, you know, and and kind of realize the
Ryan Does: Yeah. The I
Sarey: truth.
Ryan Does: I think the the part of this that like her approach to him it that really resonated was he's only ever been exposed to how superstition can be harmful and Or how people that are superstitious can be harmed or be harmed 'cause I his mom did not harm him. It was the people around his mom. But
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah.
Ryan Does: when he sees that again that she is she is superstitious in the ways that he's familiar with, but she's also incredibly caring, incredibly loving, and she is trying to go the several times in the film she's gone the extra mile to try and either help him or to make him aware of something. She goes into the deep dark forest after them when
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: they're going to Raven Rock, and that's like off limits. You're not
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: supposed to be out there. And she She goes out there
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: to to help them because she also exists.
Sarey: Yeah, that's the sort of a criticism that I have is like I feel like of this film is that her character is a little inconsistent with her bravery. Like she is
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: really fucking brave sometimes, and then she's like fainting. I think there's a lot of convenient fainting in this movie.
Ryan Does: I love okay, so I loved how much J Johnny Depp faints, I believe, four times in this movie. And
Sarey: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: it's because because he's kind of at the peak of his power in this 90s era of his career, he is so beyond goofy and ridiculous that when he faints
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: four times in this film, I'm just like, is Ichabad the damsel
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: in distress?
Sarey: Yeah, it's pretty funny because he's trying to act so professional and brave, but then he is actually very taken aback by the subject matter that is he's approaching.
Ryan Does: That's true.
Sarey: the one of the funniest parts to me is when they go to visit the witch that's in the woods, the recluse witch that's in the cave, and he's like, ma'am, I make no no assumptions about your vocation or your occupation.
Ryan Does: She's just clearly a witch.
Sarey: She's clearly a witch, there's like heads and skulls and potions and dead animals and like It's hilarious. That was the funniest part to me. Yeah.
Ryan Does: He's i he's also one of those actors that he communicates so much with his eyes too. So like when he's at that table
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: with the witch and he's just like wide eyed the entire time. You're like, No no, I believe you man, this is freaky as hell. man. I I thoroughly enjoyed this point. Right, yeah. But so
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. But she helps him. She's trying to help.
Ryan Does: on the whole, Sari, how how do you think like watching Ichabod's character go through this kind of evolution with his relationship with unexplained, unknown kind of elements that that come across, you know, his very like we've said, rational, logical framework. How what can we learn from that? What can we take from the film and then
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: we'll we'll kind of we'll put a bow on this one.
Sarey: Mm-hmm. Like, what are our takeaways?
Ryan Does: Or maybe just what do you take away from Sleepy Hollow?
Sarey: Yeah. Well, it's sort of interesting, I guess maybe this is still part of our l the last point, but he sort of realizes that even the myth is controlled by principles and rules that can be like observed
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: and followed, you know? Like he's the one that recognized he's not just killing anybody he runs into. This is a pattern, this is a certain bloodline, there's a purpose and there's there's a method to this This madness. So he
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: uses even like empirical observation to deal with the supernatural, which is sort of an interesting like him coming to the hybrid approach to things. you know, I I don't know. I appreciated that this I I appreciated kind of the grayness of it, both aesthetically and
Ryan Does: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarey: ideologically. here in Portland we have our share of witches. You know, they're not the cartoony kind that we might see in films, but you know, people have c you know appreciate the power of nature and the energy of nature and that that is something that I think a lot of people who have left like institutional religion kind of gravitate towards.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: But like you said, there's a swing too far in any kind of direction. And I appreciate the the open heartedness of the ending, where
Ryan Does: Yeah, right.
Sarey: the the compass is is love and justice. but that there are positive and negative applications of these different ideologies and that there is might be a usefulness to switching lenses sometimes and seeing things from another perspective. I
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: I appreciate that. That resonates.
Ryan Does: The benefit of seeing other perspectives makes a lot of sense with this film because we encounter quite a few rigid characters at the beginning, and the ones that really are able to thrive at the end of this film are the ones that give up their rigidness and are able to see something from another person's perspective. And it doesn't guarantee success in maybe the way we traditionally think of success, but They are all the better for it at the end. And I I just going into like Halloween season, I I'm I'm excited to have another movie that I can go back to and be like, I really thoroughly enjoy that movie. And when Halloween comes around and there's that first like nip in the air, like I'm in the Midwest, so like we have a tr you know, kind of a a pretty idyllic fall for like two weeks, and then it gets stupid cold and it starts snowing in October. It's ridiculous. but this is another
Sarey: Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: movie I can just put on and i it'll make me have those kind of warm fuzzy feelings but also I can l I can be reminded of kind of what we talked about today. Is there any other final thing about Sleepy Hollow I feel like we need to put in here at the the end?
Sarey: I don't know. I think Christopher Walken as the headless horse
Ryan Does: How do we not talk about this?
Sarey: Why are his teeth pointy?
Ryan Does: To look scary, I assume, and it kinda worked, 'cause Christopher Walken is kind of a striking person in itself,
Sarey: Yes.
Ryan Does: but it's like, you made him scarier. Fantastic. I love that for me.
Sarey: Yeah, it was like they only had him in flashback in the beginning and
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: so they had to allow him to grow his head back so that Christopher Watkin could be in the movie one more time at the end you know.
Ryan Does: Yes. Perfect. And and boy that CGI
Sarey: And he just
Ryan Does: in that head growing back scene. It's good up until
Sarey: yeah.
Ryan Does: they do the like the wacky, like bug eyed things and I was like okay. It all in all, such it's just such a great time and yeah.
Sarey: Mm it looks like Mars attacks for a second. Yeah. Yeah. A lot it's a lot of fun. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
Ryan Does: Sari, I'm gonna put the link to your website so people can check out more of Secret Art Project and what you've got going on, whether it's films and art you said you're doing art shows, just kind of everything that you're
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: got going on. I hope people check that out. And if you're
Sarey: Thank you.
Ryan Does: If you're at this point in the video, give it a like, a subscription, you won't miss any upcoming episodes. Leave a comment, what's your favorite part of Sleepy Hollow? I would love to know what what you walked away from this film with. But no matter what, everybody, no matter how you're choosing to celebrate Halloween, what what movies are on your Halloween spooky list? Does Sleepy Hollow make the cut? we just hope that no matter what is going on, you remember that the horrors may persist, but so can we.
