Ryan: Hello everyone, on this edition of Deconstructing Horror, we are going to be trying a brand new format in anticipation for the upcoming Rings of Power series coming out from Amazon. And I am also really excited to be joined by a good friend who's going to be joining me at Theology Beer Camp. Nick Polk is here to talk about the top 10 horrors in Lord of the Rings. Nick. I'm very excited to talk about horror in Tolkien's writing, specifically the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Today we're gonna be ranking our, we worked together on this, we're gonna be ranking our top ten horror characters, the horrors of Middle-earth. Are you excited to to see where everybody landed?
Nick: Yeah, dude. I mean just specifically getting nerdy about each one two and why they're horrific is just is gonna be sick.
Ryan: So for those of you that maybe don't know, Nick, what would be like your your quick little bio
Nick: you know for for street cred, I am the production editor for Malorn, which is the academic journal of the Tolkien Society. I've been doing that for six years now, and I've been a member of the society for ten. And then I have written some academic articles, and then I have a Substack and podcast called Tolkien Pop, where I explore all kinds of things. Tolkien, pop culture, philosophy, literary theory, theology, et cetera, et cetera.
Ryan: He's also a teacher, everybody. So he's like he's like a smart cookie. So Nick Nick has helped me out of many questions with Tolkien, where I'll be watching the movies and I'll just send Nick a text and I'll be like, hey, does this mean what I think it means? And he's always given me honest feedback. So when I asked him who are some of the most horrifying entities, beings, monsters, creatures in all of Lord of the Rings. There's n literally no other person I would rather do this with. so I think we should dispense with the profundities and the prologues and get to our number 10 entrant on our Lord of the Rings top ten horrors. Number ten is Gollum. So Nick, Why Gollum?
Nick: I mean Gollum sort of represents the unnatural twisting of the human physique that is present in a lot of horror. And Gollum is a hobbit originally back in the day, but hobbits are a subset of humans and he has a very human-like form. And When he's unnaturally old, six hundred years old, somewhere around there, just just sunken in, you know, skin, n bones poking out
Ryan: Stooped back like a hunchback almost.
Nick: yes, teeth. And in the books there's actually rumors that he eats babies as well. And so
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: yeah, so he he steals babies out of cribs apparently and eats them, so he's also a cannibal.
Ryan: What so so hold on, all this time I did not know that this twisted, deformed, former ha hobbit small folk, I did not know that he was a cannibalistic baby eater. So that I need to add to my my little thinking cap when I look at Gollum. I think Gollum is a really great for using horror terminology and horror subgenre to describe things. He is a form of body horror. in Lord of the Rings. This gradual centuries old twisting of form. And he like it even twists his his mind and his brain. And we see that come out in the the dual personalities of of the character that eventually lead to his downfall. I I love I love Gollum at number 10. For something for some reason I I thought it was gonna be higher maybe. But we have plenty of of great spooky creatures ahead, including number nine. The wargs, the these animalistic direwolf sized hyenas. Nick, why are wars horrifying? And what are what makes them especially scary or frightening?
Nick: So wargs are not just fantasy wolves with a little extra oomph behind them. it's
Ryan: Ha ha ha.
Nick: it's it's debated whether or not they should be or they are, 'cause Tolkien just couldn't make up his mind in a lot of ways. But
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: so Ryan and I have talked about how there's werewolves in Middle Earth, technically, but wargs are sort of in the same Way and the way Tolkien describes werewolves and I think wargs at some point or at least hints at it is that wargs are actually empty shells of former wolves that are possessed by evil spirits, which is what makes them monstrous.
Ryan: They would have been a lot higher on my list if I had known that going into this. That is awesome. I I mean it's not awesome, but I I love that. That they're not just wolves. Aha, that's where you're wrong. They're not wolves on like just a crap ton of creatine. And they're just like all, you know, yoked up. They are demon-possessed husks of wolves. So hold on, so far, we've got a body horror cannibal named Gollum first, and then we have demonically possessed husks of wolves called wargs. I cannot wait to see what the rest of this list entails. I I also think wargs are they're they're they're a little horrifying also because when the riders of Rohan are attacked on the road they are overtaken by these like these monstrous beasts and they're there's they're ripped from their horses that they're they're so animalistic and untamed and really unpredictable. that's I think that that's like just a a really cool juxtaposition to you know these regal, you know, earthy riders of Rohan who are, you know, just defending the the women and children on the road. the wargs and the warg riders are almost the exact opposite. Good contrast.
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: at number eight On our top 10 horrors of Lord of the Rings is the mouth of Sauron. And if if you're looking if you're looking at this on YouTube right now, this should go without saying. But Nick, why is the mouth of Sauron frightening and fearful? And also maybe for those that don't know much about this character, why are they called the mouth of Sauron? What is their function?
Nick: Yeah, so if you are just a movie watcher of Lord of the Rings and you have not watched the extended editions, you may not be familiar with the Mouth of Sauron, because that's
Ryan: That's true.
Nick: that's only where he shows up is in the extended editions. And he actually looks horrifying. And I think they do a really good job of making him just look so gross and nasty. but there actually isn't anything supernatural about the mouth of Sauron. the Mouth of Sauron is is a descendant of a long line of old Numenorians, which is the type of people that Aragorn descends from long, long time ago. there was a group of Numenorians that decided to worship Sauron and Morgoth. And they
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: were called the Black Numenorians. So you think of Black Mass, you think of Satan worshippers, all the satanic panic stuff. That's what
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: the mouth of Saur Sauron is. And so he eventually works his way up where he's probably done human sacrifice, he has maybe even partaken in human flesh, and now he has become the sort of captain or spokesman for Sauron, where he's also probably also has a little bit of Sauron's, you know, bits of Sauron in his body to allow him to exude a s amount of fear.
Ryan: Because he is not a or at least we're not shown this in the extended edition of Return of the King. We're not shown him being a physical threat to Aragorn or to Gandalf as they go and meet on at the Black Gate, but he he enacts this psychological horror on them when he pulls out the mithril shirt, the the thing that Frodo was supposed to be wearing to to be protected, and you see the hobbits, like they they freak out. Because they think that equal that the the that equals Frodo is dead and that this is just like a fool's errand, even more than it already was. so so that use that that leads to a decapitation. But but the mouth of Sauron for that moment strikes a ton of fear into their hearts that Frodo is actually dead. No one else tells them that. And oftentimes we don't really even get we don't get speeches or monologues from a lot of Sauron's servants. So he also adds voice to fear that way, in a very psychological way. So if we're following and checking off the subgenres, Nick, we've got we've had our body horror, we've had our creature feature, this is our psychological horror. So at number
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: seven on our list is another servant of Sauron, the Felbeast, the winged mounts of I'm assuming a a future entrant on this list, the Nazgul. So what are the Fellbeasts and what makes them especially terrifying?
Nick: So there are beings in Middle Earth that it is just unknown where they originate from. And if
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: you are a fan of Tolkien, Tolkien spends insane amount of time and energy into talking about just where the origins of species and their languages come from. What is their sort of metaphysical makeup? And
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: With the fell beasts and other creatures, the fell beasts are basically like there are evil things on this earth that we cannot explain. Almost similar to sort of like
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: a Lovecraftian sort of horror, where
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: it's like we can't explain this evil and this kind of grotesque sort of yeah, just nothingness, meaninglessness kind of embodied in a creature. And Sauron finds them, enslaves them, you makes them mounts and the way he trains them is by feeding them all sorts of mystery meat, probably human flesh and you know, there's all actually s there there'll be a couple things that we look in here where you're like, Why is this thing so monstrous? And you're like, Yeah, it's because Sauron fed them human flesh and you know, all that stuff.
Ryan: Here's what I'm picking up on cause because I've I've watched there were parts of Lord of the Rings as a younger kid I skipped past because I was like, nope, nope, not not that. That is way too scary for me at this age, maybe ever. And now I've gotten to the point where I can look at it and like, my gosh. There is definitely a way you could do Lord of the Rings, and it could be a straight up dark fantasy horror epic. There are so many monsters. So many.
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: And there's so many paranormal, supernatural, demonic entities in this. And I don't think that became as clear in my mind. but the fell beasts are they're they're they're twisted dragons, and that they they're these, you know, long, more serpentine dragons than we would get, like in the the Hobbit and the Hobbit films. And you may be wondering, like, is Smaug gonna be on this list? No, Smaug is not gonna be on this list because I'm gonna try and convince Nick to do the Hobbit as a top ten. But don't tell him. So the Fellbeasts are a really cool kind of a serpentine raptor-like entity. And and one of the most iconic scenes with them, the the Witch King of Angmar says to not come between a Nazgul and his prey, and that's when the Fellbeast. goes for Eowyn and she's like not today junior and then she gets the better of one and we see the eagles take them out but up until that point they are incredibly monstrous threats they they take out soldiers they take out different parapets on Minas Tirith they are truly a formidable thing from the sky so
Nick: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: there's really nothing about them that isn't terrifying put it that way.
Nick: Well, and last you know, just the last little thing here is that Tolkien also said they were inspired in part by pterodactyls. So
Ryan: That makes perfect sense. I believe it. that they they do kind of serve a similar function that when you see pterodactyls in dinosaur movies, like, they're just gonna pick that person up and just drop them like
Nick: yeah, Jurassic Park three all the way, baby.
Ryan: yet Jurassic World, that famous
Nick: Correct.
Ryan: yep, yep, the Mozasaur scene. anyway, anywho, we got off on the to dinosaurs as two men two grown children are want to do. Number six, we're in the subgenre of kaiju now with The Watcher in the Water. So Nick, what is The Watcher in the Water and what about it is so horrifying?
Nick: Similarly with the Fell Beast, there the Watch in the Water is like we don't know what it is. It's kind of it but also another element that makes the Watch in the Water terrifying is that it's its own thing. It it it's debated like within like nerds about who reads like the all of the, you know, sacred Tolkien texts about what exactly is The Watcher in the Water. Is the Watcher in the Water a servant of Sauron? Is it influenced by Sauron? Most
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: most most consensus is that it's just a horrible h monster from the depths of the earth that basically is so powerful and terrifying and untamable that it just exists as similar to the Fellbeast, a sort of cosmic horror entity. Yeah.
Ryan: You keep bringing up cosmic horror, and I think that's actually instead of kaiju, we'll get to a kaiju. instead of kaiju, that almost makes me think more of Lovecraft how he describes the deep ones and the the the ancient unknowable monsters of the depths. The fact that, you know, y you who have done a a good healthy amount of of research and writing in the sphere of Tolkien, there's like the watcher in the water is the watcher in the water. And and and yeah, the The fellowship fights back against him, but they they don't even come close to defeating this thing. It traps them in Moria. And it's almost like the Watch from the Water is like, that one got away. They will not get far. Like,
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: they're they're going to their doom. the Watch from the Water, definitely one of those parts as a kid where as the hobbits were throwing the ro pebbles in the water, I was like, well. I may have not seen a lot of horror movies up until this point, but I know that ain't good. So the The Watch in the Water is perfect to kinda end our our first, you know, half of this list. But number five, real quickly, we go into the the supernatural paranormal world with the King of the Dead and his army. What are they? Who are they? And I know I know what I'm gonna say to this, but I wanna see if we have different things to say about why they're such horrifying characters.
Nick: man, I think it is partially because of how unstoppable they are. And part of it is that so long time ago, at the Battle of the Last Alliance, they were men that lived in that region of the mountains, and they had sworn an oath to Gondor that said, Hey, we're we got you, we we're Felty. They're basically like, Hey, they pay rent. you know, for Gondor's protection you
Ryan: Right.
Nick: know, in exchange for for all these things. And as
Ryan: They're bannermen.
Nick: soon as say what?
Ryan: They're they're they're like bannermen. That when the when the call
Nick: Yeah, exactly.
Ryan: when the call goes out, they ride with Gondor. Well, they
Nick: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Ryan: would.
Nick: They would. And that's why they become cursed, is that they are called to fight, they bail, and because they fail to fulfill their oath, which is always a big no no that has negative consequences in Middle earth, is they basically get turned into ghosts. there is thousands of years of lore in Rohan and around that these ghosts just basically feed on people. If you go to Dunharrow, which is where the you know the paths of the dead are, people don't come back. They disappear forever. And the only person who can command them is the heir of Gondor. And you have to understand too that Aragorn shows up, but the King of Gondor Like the k the Gondor Gondor's throne hasn't had a heir in a thousand years at this point. So when Ga Aragorn shows up and he's like, I'm the heir, listen to me.
Ryan: Ha ha ha.
Nick: No one's gonna believe him. They're gonna be like, Dog, you're dead. I don't know who you think you are. But have fun.
Ryan: Yeah, exactly. I so one thing I love about the unstoppability, the unstoppability, if that's even word, of the army of the dead and the king is they are ethereal, but they can interact with the physical plane at their
Nick: Right.
Ryan: at their will. That in that trait in and of itself, and the fact that only one blade in the entire trilogy interacts with them. That should probably make them number one because they are nigh unstoppable. Gimli even says, like, you know, quite helpful in a tight pinch, these lads. Like, why are you letting them go? And I'm like, I get I like I get it. Aragorn held their oaths fulfilled, but Mordor would have been an entirely different story. Like we wouldn't have had to do this black
Nick: Correct.
Ryan: gate stuff. but the the king The dead and his army land at number five. Number four is also a spectral entrant on our list. It is the marsh wraiths of the dead marshes. we've been referencing the Battle of the Last Alliance a few times. Nick put the marsh wraiths really high on his personal
Nick: I did.
Ryan: list. So I want to know who who are they? For those that maybe don't know why these ghosts are here, but why did you put them so high? Even though they they landed our overall number four next.
Nick: There's a couple things and I think part of it for the movies themselves, I think Peter Jackson just does such a good job of making those scenes so terrifying where he's able to just create create this sort of slow build to Frodo feeling possessed, the faces in the water are so well done, and then just the part where he's being grabbed by sort of the things in the water. It scared me as a kid.
Ryan: scares me in as an adult.
Nick: Yeah, it's like l genuinely I think for me that's the most horrifying thing that Peter Jackson did in the in the trilogy for me. and so there's
Ryan: Okay. Okay. Noted.
Nick: some bias there, I think. But part of it too is that that's so frightening is that we don't know why the wraiths are even there. Like no one knows.
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: So they die and all of a sudden candles, those flames, will o' wisps start popping up and people just start disappearing. And people are like, is it Sauron? Is it just because revenge? And is it because these things? And I think it's there's a there's so many different things where I think like you can make the argument that other things in this list are way scarier. But for me, because it's like a natural it the way that I read read Tolkien and in the text and the way things are is that this is basically if You crossbred a ran a couple of plants and made your own hybrid. This happens with a bunch of horror elements. You p take a bunch of dead guys,
Ryan: Right.
Nick: you throw in a swamp. All of a sudden there's magic. They show up. It's a mystery. They kill people. And I'm like, I don't it just it freaks me out.
Ryan: I do like it's like it's it's poltergeist but in a swamp and like why are they there? Because someone did something and this burial ground was made a like a spectral haunted house. you know, it's it's a yeah.
Nick: Yeah. I'll put it I'll put it this way. We know how to defeat everything on this list. We don't know how
Ryan: That's
Nick: the mar there's there's no known cure or, you know, defense against the
Ryan: I
Nick: wraiths.
Ryan: you know, I didn't even think about that. That they like we don't we don't see we see Aragorn physically interact with Andorrill with the King of the Dead and his sword. We do not see Frodo like start fist fighting all these Marshwraiths. It's only when Gollum pulls him out and and Sam and they rescue him. He was fully gonna go to the bottom of that. Marsh and drown and become one of one of I had not thought about that. Wow, that's good. speaking of things that Frodo interacts with, number three, so just so you know, before we reveal number three, just so you know, the Marsh Wraiths were Nick's personal number one. And the next entrant on the list were my personal number ones. So neither one of us got our way when it comes to who landed at number one. But at number three, the Nazgul, the ring wraiths. Our number three. Now, a lot of the parts of the movies that I referenced as that I didn't watch as a kid were ring wraith related because I was terrified of these. Nick, who are the ring wraiths? what are the Nazgul and why why do you find them so terrifying?
Nick: Yeah, I mean it's such a great number one is that, you know, the Nazgul begin as just regular men. Sauron manipulates them. It's unclear who these people are. We only know one name of one of the Nazgul, Camul, and we don't even know Camul's origins. we it's kind of just speculative. So that's you know adds to the mystery, the terr the unknown, terrifying aspect there. But eventually over time, the rings, as as Sauron manipulates them and and corrupts them, turns them into undead nothings, essentially wraiths. And they exist for f you know, thousands of years, you know, maybe a thousand plus years, so hundreds maybe, where they just live in this sort of in between realm and you can't kill them unless you kill Sauron and which who in their who is actually going to succeed at that at this point in the history. And then of course if you look watch the movies or even read the books, I told Brian, my wife read the books for the first time last year or the year before, and when she got to the part where the Nazgul are sniffing for the hobbits, she was like This is kinda scary. Like she was like, I didn't realize this was like a horror book.
Ryan: Kelly, I agree with you. I
Nick: Yeah.
Ryan: so They are Grim Reapers. But
Nick: Yeah, totally.
Ryan: it's an entire boy band of Grim Reapers. So the fact that the their their Morgul Blades curse people with the same kind of curse. Aragorn makes it very clear that if Frodo does not get to Rivendell, he will become w like one of them and he will join. I always say the Shadow Realm because I can't get Yu-Gi-Oh! out of my head, but like he they he will go. To this place of shadow where they belong, where that where they are. And when Frodo puts on the ring, he sees them in their decayed, rotted, spectral forms. They're horrifying in that form. The other thing that I think makes them so intimidating is the screech that they emit. They tell
Nick: my gosh, it's so good.
Ryan: they tell you they're there. They want you to know they're there. There's no like, yes, they sneak up like on them a little bit, but when they're far off from Weathertop and they see the flame, they screech. Like they don't just be like, shh, better stay quiet. So we can sneak up on them. No, they they let out that screech because it in my mind, at least how Peter Jackson characterizes them, they want you to be afraid of them. And mission
Nick: Well
Ryan: accomplished, I was.
Nick: And in the books they have a a power called the black breath. And I think it's almost
Ryan: Yes.
Nick: kind of personified through that screech in in the in the in the movies, because when someone's inflicted with the black breath, the more s terrified they are, basically the more poisoned they're going to be. And
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: yeah. Yeah.
Ryan: I just I I love and now as an adult, I'm like, more NASGOL, please. because I think they're just a great simple design of such a such an iconic character. at number two, we have another very intimidating, very I'm just I'll just say this, someone I would not want to encounter in, say, a dark mine. At number two, we have Durins Bane, the Balrog. Who is Dorin's Bane? And I feel like if you look at the picture of him that I'm showing you right now, it's pretty self explanatory. But Nick, what about the Balrog is so terrifying to you?
Nick: Yeah, the Balrog is literally a demon. So originally the Balrog so the Balrog is in the same like category of
Ryan: T you
Nick: being tier, yeah, tier of power and being as Gandalf as well as Sauron. So they're on the same plane or the same tier of being and power. The Balrog went the bad way. He became a demon.
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: And so there are in the beginning of the world, there's actually a ton of Balrogs that exist.
Ryan: Right.
Nick: And eventually over time they either disappear or are defeated, whatever. There's only a couple of Balrogs that have been defeated by anybody, and none of them are defeated by mortals, by the way. So if you're a person
Ryan: Right. Mostly like high ranking elves.
Nick: high ranking elves and And and then of course Gandalf. And the Balrogs, man, I mean, if we're talking about Kaiju, maybe they might fit here where like it's it's like, okay, unless you have an angel with you, and even then it's not guaranteed, you're going to just be obliterated. You are dead. You know?
Ryan: Yeah. I so discussing this with my wife who's also read all the books and and she loves to p pontificate at length on different aspects of of the books in the movies, I asked her, Why do you like what do you find scary about the Balrog? She's like, Well, the Balrog is not actually like it's intimidating. She didn't really classify it as scary, and then I thought, you know what's really scary about the Balrog? Everything that happens before you see him. So
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: the the the glowing, the loud, the the the the the drums in the deep, like the everything about Moria is scary until like the Balrog shows up and then you're like, we're so screwed. Like the and and Gandalf even says, like, your swords are literally no good here. Like there's there's not a thing you're gonna do with that. Because you're right, like it's it's a kaiju sized demon with wings, a whip, and a sword. And it breathes fire. So like sure. And that this is this is one aspect of Peter Jackson's trilogy, and really it's fellowship, but the Balrog to me du it ages so well. Like it
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: there is no other creature, monster, whatever that was. mostly CGI done. There's no other creation with CGI that I think ages better. The Balrog is intimidating and goosebump inducing to this day. It's such a good creature design.
Nick: One hundred percent. Like everything like you can watch it on four K in twenty twenty six and you watch Lord of the Rings in four K and there's some things where you're like, Ooh, that aged very poorly.
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: Fair enough. The Balrog dude looks crisp.
Ryan: It just re real briefly, 'cause we've we've gotten a little few nuggets of interesting backstory from a few, you know, cannibalistic baby eaters, you know, satanic Numenorians, you know, all that all that fun stuff. Why is this specific Balrog that the fellowship encounters, why is it called Durinsbane? 'Cause it has a name.
Nick: Yeah. So
Ryan: It has an actual like title, I guess.
Nick: Yeah, and even in the legendarium and and in the in the sacred texts, it's argued that potentially Doran's Bane could actually be the only Balrog that's ever existed. potentially. But the reason why Doransbane is named Doran's Bane is that at one point in the dwarves history, all of the great leaders of the dwarves are named Dorin, because there's this whole thing about reincarnation. If Doran dies, you know eventually down the line someone will be born and it looks like Durin. They're hey it's re Duran reincarnated. Here he is. during Yeah,
Ryan: The once in future Doran.
Nick: exactly. Exactly. so Durin, I think it's the third if you've seen Rings of Power, and I think they actually get the the right Durin does a lot of mining for goods and just goes too far. and awakens the Balrog and kills Durin and the dwarves basically have to get get out
Ryan: I cannot wait.
Nick: of there. Yeah.
Ryan: my god, I'm so excited. because I had forgotten about that that was like one of the things we build up to at the end of season two. until this moment, Nick. the Balrog
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: is coming. 'cause honestly, how is the Balrog not just like a horror movie in and of itself? Like the it's like this doom meets Diablo kind of like horror hellscape.
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: And the dwarves really only have themselves to blame and their greed. it's just it's gonna be so good. so before we get to number one, I wanted to tell people a few of the honorable mentions and maybe get from Nick like one of the honorable mentions that you know is like Ryan ruined it. This guy almost got into the top ten. so which one you would have bumped up a little more? So here's some our honorable mentions. And and just so you know, viewer and listener, you will notice a trend. With at least the first few of these honorable mentions. The goblins, the goblins of Moria, more specifically, the Oricai of Isengard, the Orcs of Mordor, and their commander, Gothmog, who for some reason I feel like I know a lot of, especially women who are Lord of the Rings fans, it's like, my gosh, isn't Gothmog such a cutie? It's like sure. Old Tomor face himself.
Nick: I guess. We listen and we don't judge.
Ryan: Then we have We listen and we don't judge, especially about Gothmog. But then we have the cave trolls of Moria, as Sean Bean so famously said. They have a cave troll, fantastic. Then we have the Mumakil, who are the you know the the Haradron, the Olifants, the that kind of group of Sauron's servants. And then I threw the Ents in here because the Ents are a monstrous being. This was the one where I'll just say this real quick. The Ents were the one that I was like, you know, we don't view them as horrifying creatures. and and they ranked super low in our rankings. But I will say this, before the hobbits go into Fangorn, Fangorn is like off limits. The the The the the Isengard orcs don't go there, the Rohiram don't go there. It's like this haunted old dark forest. And the Ents are more legend. They're they're like they're like a whisper of a legend. And it's a giant like life I know they're not actually trees, but like it's this living tree that is strong and it's intimidating and it i hi I could see the ants being a lot more horrific if they maybe weren't so like, you know Okay, Hobbits, hop on. but just that the stats on them could be a little bit more intimidating. Nick, did you have one on this list where you're like, that one I would have loved to have seen go along?
Nick: Honestly, I I think I agree with you with the ants, honestly, 'cause I thought about it. It
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: was one of those that I wrestled with and I think it's only because of what side they ultimately fall on. But if you're an orc and Isengard and one of those you see an army of those things coming at you, you're
Ryan: no thanks.
Nick: you're I mean, I'm paralyzed. I'm peeing myself. You know what I mean? Like it's just
Ryan: Your
Nick: absolutely terrifying.
Ryan: you are six degrees of screwed. you know,
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: it's not good. all these are kind of the foot soldier kind of characters. so s so they really don't have like the there's a few strong like individuals like a Gothmog or with the Orokai alerts is very intimidating. but overall they they kind of fall into that fodder category. So I I was glad that we got a little bit more specific individuals to talk about. And that applies to our number one, Nick. Our number one is Shilob, the child of Ungoliant. Why is Shilob the giant spider in Nir Kirath Ungul? Why is Shilob number one on our list? What is so terrifying about a giant spider that it that has a giant paralyzing stinger? What could be horrifying about that?
Nick: I mean nothing really, you know, NBD. Yeah. No one has arachnophobia.
Ryan: No, God, not at all. what what what is Shilob? Like what why I've always kind of wondered at this and maybe you can expound a little bit about this. Why is Shilob held up there in Mordor? Because clearly Shilob will eat orcs and goblins and it's not like it's not like Shelob's a pet, but also Where does Shilob come from? Ma maybe the backstory will add to a little bit of the horrific nature of this character for people.
Nick: Yeah. so she's she's the descendant of Ungoliant, and for those of you who don't know, which if you've just w read the books or seen the movies, it would be it would be understandable. Ungolion is a giant cosmic spider that existed
Ryan: Here.
Nick: she just shows up. Like no one knows where Ungoleant come came from. So in like the beginning of Tolkien's created universe Morgoth is the big bad, he's the satanic character, he wants to destroy things, and he basically goes out into the void of the universe and he just stumbles upon Ungolion, who's just there eating Starlight because she can. And
Ryan: That's what you do. Well, Angolian has like this insatiable hunger where it just
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: keeps eating.
Nick: Yeah, it's a rumor that she even ate herself 'cause she ran out of things to eat. so even Morgoth is afraid of her. And so similarly
Ryan: That is even the big bad is afraid of this other character.
Nick: Yeah. She seems to have just appeared. so as an you know, Ungolion for some i reason is able to breed with other spiders or monster spiders, who knows? And eventually gives birth to a long line of evil spiders that show up in the hobbit. And she lub is sort of like the matriarch in this part of the world in time. She Lub at the is also a producer of darkness and she can also consume light to a certain degree. And also Sauron just lets her exist because Sauron is also afraid of Shelob. So when you've got also
Ryan: Insane.
Nick: another big bad who's like, I mean, I I'm gonna leave her alone and just feed her some of my minions every once in a while so she doesn't mess with me, right?
Ryan: So w just one little a add on here. as we tell try to convince listeners like Sheila, Sheila's not even like it's not as big as a Balrog and doesn't, you know, it's not as formidable in a fight as a Nazgul. Like, okay, Sauron is on some level afraid of her. I'm sorry. Sauron's not afraid of almost anything on this list except for the creature, the monster, the being that landed at number one. Let's let that like just kind of sink in. N Nick, is there anything else about Shilob we should know as she lands at number one?
Nick: I think just because She Lub is is more of a less sentient being, that's probably what would take her down a little bit. because she is more of an animal. She's more of like Sarin treats her like a cat. But, you know, obviously if you're,
Ryan: Pretty big cat.
Nick: you know, big cat, obviously it's gonna eat you. And also, this has nothing to do with horror, but just think about how amazing it is that Sam defeats She Lub. He doesn't kill her, but he faces her and wins, and you're just like, that's Sam's a freaking legend, dude. So there you go.
Ryan: Sa yeah, yeah. Sam is many, many people's favorite character in Lord of the Rings. I mean, justifiably. You would almost have to justify the opposite. Like, you don't like Sam? Are do are you do you hate puppies in sunshine too? So Nick, we've done our top ten. just quickly, look, we had Gollum at number ten, the wargs at number nine, the mouth of Sauron at number eight, number seven was the Fellbeast, number six was the Watcher in the Water, number five was the King of the Dead and his army, four was the Marshraiths, three was the Nazgul, number two was the Balrog, and number one was Shelob. Final thoughts on our top ten. Did we nail it? Did we disagree to the point where you're not gonna do the Hobbit with me? what where did you land with our final results? Are we not on speaking terms anymore? I d I'm I'm very curious.
Nick: Worst list ever.
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: No, all things all things, I think we have a very, very solid list. I will say that one thing as we talked and as I even thought about coming to this, I do think Gollum could arguably be higher on the list as far as like higher ranked because of just the baby eating cannibalism. But I think we have a pretty solid list that that feels pretty good. I think you can argue too that maybe the Marsh wraiths could go somewhere on that list at any places. But yeah, other than those two, I was like, I could see moving. I think we just have a very solid list.
Ryan: All in all, I think we I had a lot of fun doing this. And good news, everybody. As we were talking, and even before, I thought of other Middle-earth ones we could do. We could do The Hobbit, we could do Rings of Power,
Nick: yes.
Ryan: we could do. We just got done talking about Ungolion. We could do the Silmarillion. And I know Nick's little nerdy polkin heart would just explode if we were like. Top ten horrors in the Silmarillion. Maybe Nick and I are the only ones that would ever even listen to that, but Ungolion has to be high up on that. And we talked so much about Ungoliount and Morgoth and isn't there a big giant dragon in that one too, Nick? like what's
Nick: multiple.
Ryan: the so many dragons. and you know, hey, which one would you like to see us do next? The Hobbit, Rings of Power, Silmarillion? I you know, I I'm sure we could I'm sure we can make a top ten work with each one of them because Tolkien is known for like hobbits and elves and like wizards and stuff. He created a lot of terrifying things. So, Nick, thank you so much for doing this top ten horrors of Lord of the Rings. we will include links down below for your Substack, for Tolkien Pop, your awesome podcast. is there any last last thought you have, man?
Nick: No, just thanks for doing this. Anytime we can nerd out about this is gonna be awesome. And when you're like,
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: we could do this forever, you know, and I'm like,
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: you know, the first thing that popped into my head when you were like the Silmarillion and I was just riding on a panda bear on a rainbow and I just wanted to scream, Take me to Pleasure Town, Ryan.
Ryan: my gosh. Anytime, friend. so everybody, as we head off, just remember that even if the horrors persist, so can we.
Nick: Yeah, dude. I mean just specifically getting nerdy about each one two and why they're horrific is just is gonna be sick.
Ryan: So for those of you that maybe don't know, Nick, what would be like your your quick little bio
Nick: you know for for street cred, I am the production editor for Malorn, which is the academic journal of the Tolkien Society. I've been doing that for six years now, and I've been a member of the society for ten. And then I have written some academic articles, and then I have a Substack and podcast called Tolkien Pop, where I explore all kinds of things. Tolkien, pop culture, philosophy, literary theory, theology, et cetera, et cetera.
Ryan: He's also a teacher, everybody. So he's like he's like a smart cookie. So Nick Nick has helped me out of many questions with Tolkien, where I'll be watching the movies and I'll just send Nick a text and I'll be like, hey, does this mean what I think it means? And he's always given me honest feedback. So when I asked him who are some of the most horrifying entities, beings, monsters, creatures in all of Lord of the Rings. There's n literally no other person I would rather do this with. so I think we should dispense with the profundities and the prologues and get to our number 10 entrant on our Lord of the Rings top ten horrors. Number ten is Gollum. So Nick, Why Gollum?
Nick: I mean Gollum sort of represents the unnatural twisting of the human physique that is present in a lot of horror. And Gollum is a hobbit originally back in the day, but hobbits are a subset of humans and he has a very human-like form. And When he's unnaturally old, six hundred years old, somewhere around there, just just sunken in, you know, skin, n bones poking out
Ryan: Stooped back like a hunchback almost.
Nick: yes, teeth. And in the books there's actually rumors that he eats babies as well. And so
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: yeah, so he he steals babies out of cribs apparently and eats them, so he's also a cannibal.
Ryan: What so so hold on, all this time I did not know that this twisted, deformed, former ha hobbit small folk, I did not know that he was a cannibalistic baby eater. So that I need to add to my my little thinking cap when I look at Gollum. I think Gollum is a really great for using horror terminology and horror subgenre to describe things. He is a form of body horror. in Lord of the Rings. This gradual centuries old twisting of form. And he like it even twists his his mind and his brain. And we see that come out in the the dual personalities of of the character that eventually lead to his downfall. I I love I love Gollum at number 10. For something for some reason I I thought it was gonna be higher maybe. But we have plenty of of great spooky creatures ahead, including number nine. The wargs, the these animalistic direwolf sized hyenas. Nick, why are wars horrifying? And what are what makes them especially scary or frightening?
Nick: So wargs are not just fantasy wolves with a little extra oomph behind them. it's
Ryan: Ha ha ha.
Nick: it's it's debated whether or not they should be or they are, 'cause Tolkien just couldn't make up his mind in a lot of ways. But
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: so Ryan and I have talked about how there's werewolves in Middle Earth, technically, but wargs are sort of in the same Way and the way Tolkien describes werewolves and I think wargs at some point or at least hints at it is that wargs are actually empty shells of former wolves that are possessed by evil spirits, which is what makes them monstrous.
Ryan: They would have been a lot higher on my list if I had known that going into this. That is awesome. I I mean it's not awesome, but I I love that. That they're not just wolves. Aha, that's where you're wrong. They're not wolves on like just a crap ton of creatine. And they're just like all, you know, yoked up. They are demon-possessed husks of wolves. So hold on, so far, we've got a body horror cannibal named Gollum first, and then we have demonically possessed husks of wolves called wargs. I cannot wait to see what the rest of this list entails. I I also think wargs are they're they're they're a little horrifying also because when the riders of Rohan are attacked on the road they are overtaken by these like these monstrous beasts and they're there's they're ripped from their horses that they're they're so animalistic and untamed and really unpredictable. that's I think that that's like just a a really cool juxtaposition to you know these regal, you know, earthy riders of Rohan who are, you know, just defending the the women and children on the road. the wargs and the warg riders are almost the exact opposite. Good contrast.
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: at number eight On our top 10 horrors of Lord of the Rings is the mouth of Sauron. And if if you're looking if you're looking at this on YouTube right now, this should go without saying. But Nick, why is the mouth of Sauron frightening and fearful? And also maybe for those that don't know much about this character, why are they called the mouth of Sauron? What is their function?
Nick: Yeah, so if you are just a movie watcher of Lord of the Rings and you have not watched the extended editions, you may not be familiar with the Mouth of Sauron, because that's
Ryan: That's true.
Nick: that's only where he shows up is in the extended editions. And he actually looks horrifying. And I think they do a really good job of making him just look so gross and nasty. but there actually isn't anything supernatural about the mouth of Sauron. the Mouth of Sauron is is a descendant of a long line of old Numenorians, which is the type of people that Aragorn descends from long, long time ago. there was a group of Numenorians that decided to worship Sauron and Morgoth. And they
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: were called the Black Numenorians. So you think of Black Mass, you think of Satan worshippers, all the satanic panic stuff. That's what
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: the mouth of Saur Sauron is. And so he eventually works his way up where he's probably done human sacrifice, he has maybe even partaken in human flesh, and now he has become the sort of captain or spokesman for Sauron, where he's also probably also has a little bit of Sauron's, you know, bits of Sauron in his body to allow him to exude a s amount of fear.
Ryan: Because he is not a or at least we're not shown this in the extended edition of Return of the King. We're not shown him being a physical threat to Aragorn or to Gandalf as they go and meet on at the Black Gate, but he he enacts this psychological horror on them when he pulls out the mithril shirt, the the thing that Frodo was supposed to be wearing to to be protected, and you see the hobbits, like they they freak out. Because they think that equal that the the that equals Frodo is dead and that this is just like a fool's errand, even more than it already was. so so that use that that leads to a decapitation. But but the mouth of Sauron for that moment strikes a ton of fear into their hearts that Frodo is actually dead. No one else tells them that. And oftentimes we don't really even get we don't get speeches or monologues from a lot of Sauron's servants. So he also adds voice to fear that way, in a very psychological way. So if we're following and checking off the subgenres, Nick, we've got we've had our body horror, we've had our creature feature, this is our psychological horror. So at number
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: seven on our list is another servant of Sauron, the Felbeast, the winged mounts of I'm assuming a a future entrant on this list, the Nazgul. So what are the Fellbeasts and what makes them especially terrifying?
Nick: So there are beings in Middle Earth that it is just unknown where they originate from. And if
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: you are a fan of Tolkien, Tolkien spends insane amount of time and energy into talking about just where the origins of species and their languages come from. What is their sort of metaphysical makeup? And
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: With the fell beasts and other creatures, the fell beasts are basically like there are evil things on this earth that we cannot explain. Almost similar to sort of like
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: a Lovecraftian sort of horror, where
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: it's like we can't explain this evil and this kind of grotesque sort of yeah, just nothingness, meaninglessness kind of embodied in a creature. And Sauron finds them, enslaves them, you makes them mounts and the way he trains them is by feeding them all sorts of mystery meat, probably human flesh and you know, there's all actually s there there'll be a couple things that we look in here where you're like, Why is this thing so monstrous? And you're like, Yeah, it's because Sauron fed them human flesh and you know, all that stuff.
Ryan: Here's what I'm picking up on cause because I've I've watched there were parts of Lord of the Rings as a younger kid I skipped past because I was like, nope, nope, not not that. That is way too scary for me at this age, maybe ever. And now I've gotten to the point where I can look at it and like, my gosh. There is definitely a way you could do Lord of the Rings, and it could be a straight up dark fantasy horror epic. There are so many monsters. So many.
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: And there's so many paranormal, supernatural, demonic entities in this. And I don't think that became as clear in my mind. but the fell beasts are they're they're they're twisted dragons, and that they they're these, you know, long, more serpentine dragons than we would get, like in the the Hobbit and the Hobbit films. And you may be wondering, like, is Smaug gonna be on this list? No, Smaug is not gonna be on this list because I'm gonna try and convince Nick to do the Hobbit as a top ten. But don't tell him. So the Fellbeasts are a really cool kind of a serpentine raptor-like entity. And and one of the most iconic scenes with them, the the Witch King of Angmar says to not come between a Nazgul and his prey, and that's when the Fellbeast. goes for Eowyn and she's like not today junior and then she gets the better of one and we see the eagles take them out but up until that point they are incredibly monstrous threats they they take out soldiers they take out different parapets on Minas Tirith they are truly a formidable thing from the sky so
Nick: Mm-hmm.
Ryan: there's really nothing about them that isn't terrifying put it that way.
Nick: Well, and last you know, just the last little thing here is that Tolkien also said they were inspired in part by pterodactyls. So
Ryan: That makes perfect sense. I believe it. that they they do kind of serve a similar function that when you see pterodactyls in dinosaur movies, like, they're just gonna pick that person up and just drop them like
Nick: yeah, Jurassic Park three all the way, baby.
Ryan: yet Jurassic World, that famous
Nick: Correct.
Ryan: yep, yep, the Mozasaur scene. anyway, anywho, we got off on the to dinosaurs as two men two grown children are want to do. Number six, we're in the subgenre of kaiju now with The Watcher in the Water. So Nick, what is The Watcher in the Water and what about it is so horrifying?
Nick: Similarly with the Fell Beast, there the Watch in the Water is like we don't know what it is. It's kind of it but also another element that makes the Watch in the Water terrifying is that it's its own thing. It it it's debated like within like nerds about who reads like the all of the, you know, sacred Tolkien texts about what exactly is The Watcher in the Water. Is the Watcher in the Water a servant of Sauron? Is it influenced by Sauron? Most
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: most most consensus is that it's just a horrible h monster from the depths of the earth that basically is so powerful and terrifying and untamable that it just exists as similar to the Fellbeast, a sort of cosmic horror entity. Yeah.
Ryan: You keep bringing up cosmic horror, and I think that's actually instead of kaiju, we'll get to a kaiju. instead of kaiju, that almost makes me think more of Lovecraft how he describes the deep ones and the the the ancient unknowable monsters of the depths. The fact that, you know, y you who have done a a good healthy amount of of research and writing in the sphere of Tolkien, there's like the watcher in the water is the watcher in the water. And and and yeah, the The fellowship fights back against him, but they they don't even come close to defeating this thing. It traps them in Moria. And it's almost like the Watch from the Water is like, that one got away. They will not get far. Like,
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: they're they're going to their doom. the Watch from the Water, definitely one of those parts as a kid where as the hobbits were throwing the ro pebbles in the water, I was like, well. I may have not seen a lot of horror movies up until this point, but I know that ain't good. So the The Watch in the Water is perfect to kinda end our our first, you know, half of this list. But number five, real quickly, we go into the the supernatural paranormal world with the King of the Dead and his army. What are they? Who are they? And I know I know what I'm gonna say to this, but I wanna see if we have different things to say about why they're such horrifying characters.
Nick: man, I think it is partially because of how unstoppable they are. And part of it is that so long time ago, at the Battle of the Last Alliance, they were men that lived in that region of the mountains, and they had sworn an oath to Gondor that said, Hey, we're we got you, we we're Felty. They're basically like, Hey, they pay rent. you know, for Gondor's protection you
Ryan: Right.
Nick: know, in exchange for for all these things. And as
Ryan: They're bannermen.
Nick: soon as say what?
Ryan: They're they're they're like bannermen. That when the when the call
Nick: Yeah, exactly.
Ryan: when the call goes out, they ride with Gondor. Well, they
Nick: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Ryan: would.
Nick: They would. And that's why they become cursed, is that they are called to fight, they bail, and because they fail to fulfill their oath, which is always a big no no that has negative consequences in Middle earth, is they basically get turned into ghosts. there is thousands of years of lore in Rohan and around that these ghosts just basically feed on people. If you go to Dunharrow, which is where the you know the paths of the dead are, people don't come back. They disappear forever. And the only person who can command them is the heir of Gondor. And you have to understand too that Aragorn shows up, but the King of Gondor Like the k the Gondor Gondor's throne hasn't had a heir in a thousand years at this point. So when Ga Aragorn shows up and he's like, I'm the heir, listen to me.
Ryan: Ha ha ha.
Nick: No one's gonna believe him. They're gonna be like, Dog, you're dead. I don't know who you think you are. But have fun.
Ryan: Yeah, exactly. I so one thing I love about the unstoppability, the unstoppability, if that's even word, of the army of the dead and the king is they are ethereal, but they can interact with the physical plane at their
Nick: Right.
Ryan: at their will. That in that trait in and of itself, and the fact that only one blade in the entire trilogy interacts with them. That should probably make them number one because they are nigh unstoppable. Gimli even says, like, you know, quite helpful in a tight pinch, these lads. Like, why are you letting them go? And I'm like, I get I like I get it. Aragorn held their oaths fulfilled, but Mordor would have been an entirely different story. Like we wouldn't have had to do this black
Nick: Correct.
Ryan: gate stuff. but the the king The dead and his army land at number five. Number four is also a spectral entrant on our list. It is the marsh wraiths of the dead marshes. we've been referencing the Battle of the Last Alliance a few times. Nick put the marsh wraiths really high on his personal
Nick: I did.
Ryan: list. So I want to know who who are they? For those that maybe don't know why these ghosts are here, but why did you put them so high? Even though they they landed our overall number four next.
Nick: There's a couple things and I think part of it for the movies themselves, I think Peter Jackson just does such a good job of making those scenes so terrifying where he's able to just create create this sort of slow build to Frodo feeling possessed, the faces in the water are so well done, and then just the part where he's being grabbed by sort of the things in the water. It scared me as a kid.
Ryan: scares me in as an adult.
Nick: Yeah, it's like l genuinely I think for me that's the most horrifying thing that Peter Jackson did in the in the trilogy for me. and so there's
Ryan: Okay. Okay. Noted.
Nick: some bias there, I think. But part of it too is that that's so frightening is that we don't know why the wraiths are even there. Like no one knows.
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: So they die and all of a sudden candles, those flames, will o' wisps start popping up and people just start disappearing. And people are like, is it Sauron? Is it just because revenge? And is it because these things? And I think it's there's a there's so many different things where I think like you can make the argument that other things in this list are way scarier. But for me, because it's like a natural it the way that I read read Tolkien and in the text and the way things are is that this is basically if You crossbred a ran a couple of plants and made your own hybrid. This happens with a bunch of horror elements. You p take a bunch of dead guys,
Ryan: Right.
Nick: you throw in a swamp. All of a sudden there's magic. They show up. It's a mystery. They kill people. And I'm like, I don't it just it freaks me out.
Ryan: I do like it's like it's it's poltergeist but in a swamp and like why are they there? Because someone did something and this burial ground was made a like a spectral haunted house. you know, it's it's a yeah.
Nick: Yeah. I'll put it I'll put it this way. We know how to defeat everything on this list. We don't know how
Ryan: That's
Nick: the mar there's there's no known cure or, you know, defense against the
Ryan: I
Nick: wraiths.
Ryan: you know, I didn't even think about that. That they like we don't we don't see we see Aragorn physically interact with Andorrill with the King of the Dead and his sword. We do not see Frodo like start fist fighting all these Marshwraiths. It's only when Gollum pulls him out and and Sam and they rescue him. He was fully gonna go to the bottom of that. Marsh and drown and become one of one of I had not thought about that. Wow, that's good. speaking of things that Frodo interacts with, number three, so just so you know, before we reveal number three, just so you know, the Marsh Wraiths were Nick's personal number one. And the next entrant on the list were my personal number ones. So neither one of us got our way when it comes to who landed at number one. But at number three, the Nazgul, the ring wraiths. Our number three. Now, a lot of the parts of the movies that I referenced as that I didn't watch as a kid were ring wraith related because I was terrified of these. Nick, who are the ring wraiths? what are the Nazgul and why why do you find them so terrifying?
Nick: Yeah, I mean it's such a great number one is that, you know, the Nazgul begin as just regular men. Sauron manipulates them. It's unclear who these people are. We only know one name of one of the Nazgul, Camul, and we don't even know Camul's origins. we it's kind of just speculative. So that's you know adds to the mystery, the terr the unknown, terrifying aspect there. But eventually over time, the rings, as as Sauron manipulates them and and corrupts them, turns them into undead nothings, essentially wraiths. And they exist for f you know, thousands of years, you know, maybe a thousand plus years, so hundreds maybe, where they just live in this sort of in between realm and you can't kill them unless you kill Sauron and which who in their who is actually going to succeed at that at this point in the history. And then of course if you look watch the movies or even read the books, I told Brian, my wife read the books for the first time last year or the year before, and when she got to the part where the Nazgul are sniffing for the hobbits, she was like This is kinda scary. Like she was like, I didn't realize this was like a horror book.
Ryan: Kelly, I agree with you. I
Nick: Yeah.
Ryan: so They are Grim Reapers. But
Nick: Yeah, totally.
Ryan: it's an entire boy band of Grim Reapers. So the fact that the their their Morgul Blades curse people with the same kind of curse. Aragorn makes it very clear that if Frodo does not get to Rivendell, he will become w like one of them and he will join. I always say the Shadow Realm because I can't get Yu-Gi-Oh! out of my head, but like he they he will go. To this place of shadow where they belong, where that where they are. And when Frodo puts on the ring, he sees them in their decayed, rotted, spectral forms. They're horrifying in that form. The other thing that I think makes them so intimidating is the screech that they emit. They tell
Nick: my gosh, it's so good.
Ryan: they tell you they're there. They want you to know they're there. There's no like, yes, they sneak up like on them a little bit, but when they're far off from Weathertop and they see the flame, they screech. Like they don't just be like, shh, better stay quiet. So we can sneak up on them. No, they they let out that screech because it in my mind, at least how Peter Jackson characterizes them, they want you to be afraid of them. And mission
Nick: Well
Ryan: accomplished, I was.
Nick: And in the books they have a a power called the black breath. And I think it's almost
Ryan: Yes.
Nick: kind of personified through that screech in in the in the in the movies, because when someone's inflicted with the black breath, the more s terrified they are, basically the more poisoned they're going to be. And
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: yeah. Yeah.
Ryan: I just I I love and now as an adult, I'm like, more NASGOL, please. because I think they're just a great simple design of such a such an iconic character. at number two, we have another very intimidating, very I'm just I'll just say this, someone I would not want to encounter in, say, a dark mine. At number two, we have Durins Bane, the Balrog. Who is Dorin's Bane? And I feel like if you look at the picture of him that I'm showing you right now, it's pretty self explanatory. But Nick, what about the Balrog is so terrifying to you?
Nick: Yeah, the Balrog is literally a demon. So originally the Balrog so the Balrog is in the same like category of
Ryan: T you
Nick: being tier, yeah, tier of power and being as Gandalf as well as Sauron. So they're on the same plane or the same tier of being and power. The Balrog went the bad way. He became a demon.
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: And so there are in the beginning of the world, there's actually a ton of Balrogs that exist.
Ryan: Right.
Nick: And eventually over time they either disappear or are defeated, whatever. There's only a couple of Balrogs that have been defeated by anybody, and none of them are defeated by mortals, by the way. So if you're a person
Ryan: Right. Mostly like high ranking elves.
Nick: high ranking elves and And and then of course Gandalf. And the Balrogs, man, I mean, if we're talking about Kaiju, maybe they might fit here where like it's it's like, okay, unless you have an angel with you, and even then it's not guaranteed, you're going to just be obliterated. You are dead. You know?
Ryan: Yeah. I so discussing this with my wife who's also read all the books and and she loves to p pontificate at length on different aspects of of the books in the movies, I asked her, Why do you like what do you find scary about the Balrog? She's like, Well, the Balrog is not actually like it's intimidating. She didn't really classify it as scary, and then I thought, you know what's really scary about the Balrog? Everything that happens before you see him. So
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: the the the glowing, the loud, the the the the the drums in the deep, like the everything about Moria is scary until like the Balrog shows up and then you're like, we're so screwed. Like the and and Gandalf even says, like, your swords are literally no good here. Like there's there's not a thing you're gonna do with that. Because you're right, like it's it's a kaiju sized demon with wings, a whip, and a sword. And it breathes fire. So like sure. And that this is this is one aspect of Peter Jackson's trilogy, and really it's fellowship, but the Balrog to me du it ages so well. Like it
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: there is no other creature, monster, whatever that was. mostly CGI done. There's no other creation with CGI that I think ages better. The Balrog is intimidating and goosebump inducing to this day. It's such a good creature design.
Nick: One hundred percent. Like everything like you can watch it on four K in twenty twenty six and you watch Lord of the Rings in four K and there's some things where you're like, Ooh, that aged very poorly.
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: Fair enough. The Balrog dude looks crisp.
Ryan: It just re real briefly, 'cause we've we've gotten a little few nuggets of interesting backstory from a few, you know, cannibalistic baby eaters, you know, satanic Numenorians, you know, all that all that fun stuff. Why is this specific Balrog that the fellowship encounters, why is it called Durinsbane? 'Cause it has a name.
Nick: Yeah. So
Ryan: It has an actual like title, I guess.
Nick: Yeah, and even in the legendarium and and in the in the sacred texts, it's argued that potentially Doran's Bane could actually be the only Balrog that's ever existed. potentially. But the reason why Doransbane is named Doran's Bane is that at one point in the dwarves history, all of the great leaders of the dwarves are named Dorin, because there's this whole thing about reincarnation. If Doran dies, you know eventually down the line someone will be born and it looks like Durin. They're hey it's re Duran reincarnated. Here he is. during Yeah,
Ryan: The once in future Doran.
Nick: exactly. Exactly. so Durin, I think it's the third if you've seen Rings of Power, and I think they actually get the the right Durin does a lot of mining for goods and just goes too far. and awakens the Balrog and kills Durin and the dwarves basically have to get get out
Ryan: I cannot wait.
Nick: of there. Yeah.
Ryan: my god, I'm so excited. because I had forgotten about that that was like one of the things we build up to at the end of season two. until this moment, Nick. the Balrog
Nick: yeah.
Ryan: is coming. 'cause honestly, how is the Balrog not just like a horror movie in and of itself? Like the it's like this doom meets Diablo kind of like horror hellscape.
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: And the dwarves really only have themselves to blame and their greed. it's just it's gonna be so good. so before we get to number one, I wanted to tell people a few of the honorable mentions and maybe get from Nick like one of the honorable mentions that you know is like Ryan ruined it. This guy almost got into the top ten. so which one you would have bumped up a little more? So here's some our honorable mentions. And and just so you know, viewer and listener, you will notice a trend. With at least the first few of these honorable mentions. The goblins, the goblins of Moria, more specifically, the Oricai of Isengard, the Orcs of Mordor, and their commander, Gothmog, who for some reason I feel like I know a lot of, especially women who are Lord of the Rings fans, it's like, my gosh, isn't Gothmog such a cutie? It's like sure. Old Tomor face himself.
Nick: I guess. We listen and we don't judge.
Ryan: Then we have We listen and we don't judge, especially about Gothmog. But then we have the cave trolls of Moria, as Sean Bean so famously said. They have a cave troll, fantastic. Then we have the Mumakil, who are the you know the the Haradron, the Olifants, the that kind of group of Sauron's servants. And then I threw the Ents in here because the Ents are a monstrous being. This was the one where I'll just say this real quick. The Ents were the one that I was like, you know, we don't view them as horrifying creatures. and and they ranked super low in our rankings. But I will say this, before the hobbits go into Fangorn, Fangorn is like off limits. The the The the the Isengard orcs don't go there, the Rohiram don't go there. It's like this haunted old dark forest. And the Ents are more legend. They're they're like they're like a whisper of a legend. And it's a giant like life I know they're not actually trees, but like it's this living tree that is strong and it's intimidating and it i hi I could see the ants being a lot more horrific if they maybe weren't so like, you know Okay, Hobbits, hop on. but just that the stats on them could be a little bit more intimidating. Nick, did you have one on this list where you're like, that one I would have loved to have seen go along?
Nick: Honestly, I I think I agree with you with the ants, honestly, 'cause I thought about it. It
Ryan: Okay.
Nick: was one of those that I wrestled with and I think it's only because of what side they ultimately fall on. But if you're an orc and Isengard and one of those you see an army of those things coming at you, you're
Ryan: no thanks.
Nick: you're I mean, I'm paralyzed. I'm peeing myself. You know what I mean? Like it's just
Ryan: Your
Nick: absolutely terrifying.
Ryan: you are six degrees of screwed. you know,
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: it's not good. all these are kind of the foot soldier kind of characters. so s so they really don't have like the there's a few strong like individuals like a Gothmog or with the Orokai alerts is very intimidating. but overall they they kind of fall into that fodder category. So I I was glad that we got a little bit more specific individuals to talk about. And that applies to our number one, Nick. Our number one is Shilob, the child of Ungoliant. Why is Shilob the giant spider in Nir Kirath Ungul? Why is Shilob number one on our list? What is so terrifying about a giant spider that it that has a giant paralyzing stinger? What could be horrifying about that?
Nick: I mean nothing really, you know, NBD. Yeah. No one has arachnophobia.
Ryan: No, God, not at all. what what what is Shilob? Like what why I've always kind of wondered at this and maybe you can expound a little bit about this. Why is Shilob held up there in Mordor? Because clearly Shilob will eat orcs and goblins and it's not like it's not like Shelob's a pet, but also Where does Shilob come from? Ma maybe the backstory will add to a little bit of the horrific nature of this character for people.
Nick: Yeah. so she's she's the descendant of Ungoliant, and for those of you who don't know, which if you've just w read the books or seen the movies, it would be it would be understandable. Ungolion is a giant cosmic spider that existed
Ryan: Here.
Nick: she just shows up. Like no one knows where Ungoleant come came from. So in like the beginning of Tolkien's created universe Morgoth is the big bad, he's the satanic character, he wants to destroy things, and he basically goes out into the void of the universe and he just stumbles upon Ungolion, who's just there eating Starlight because she can. And
Ryan: That's what you do. Well, Angolian has like this insatiable hunger where it just
Nick: Yes.
Ryan: keeps eating.
Nick: Yeah, it's a rumor that she even ate herself 'cause she ran out of things to eat. so even Morgoth is afraid of her. And so similarly
Ryan: That is even the big bad is afraid of this other character.
Nick: Yeah. She seems to have just appeared. so as an you know, Ungolion for some i reason is able to breed with other spiders or monster spiders, who knows? And eventually gives birth to a long line of evil spiders that show up in the hobbit. And she lub is sort of like the matriarch in this part of the world in time. She Lub at the is also a producer of darkness and she can also consume light to a certain degree. And also Sauron just lets her exist because Sauron is also afraid of Shelob. So when you've got also
Ryan: Insane.
Nick: another big bad who's like, I mean, I I'm gonna leave her alone and just feed her some of my minions every once in a while so she doesn't mess with me, right?
Ryan: So w just one little a add on here. as we tell try to convince listeners like Sheila, Sheila's not even like it's not as big as a Balrog and doesn't, you know, it's not as formidable in a fight as a Nazgul. Like, okay, Sauron is on some level afraid of her. I'm sorry. Sauron's not afraid of almost anything on this list except for the creature, the monster, the being that landed at number one. Let's let that like just kind of sink in. N Nick, is there anything else about Shilob we should know as she lands at number one?
Nick: I think just because She Lub is is more of a less sentient being, that's probably what would take her down a little bit. because she is more of an animal. She's more of like Sarin treats her like a cat. But, you know, obviously if you're,
Ryan: Pretty big cat.
Nick: you know, big cat, obviously it's gonna eat you. And also, this has nothing to do with horror, but just think about how amazing it is that Sam defeats She Lub. He doesn't kill her, but he faces her and wins, and you're just like, that's Sam's a freaking legend, dude. So there you go.
Ryan: Sa yeah, yeah. Sam is many, many people's favorite character in Lord of the Rings. I mean, justifiably. You would almost have to justify the opposite. Like, you don't like Sam? Are do are you do you hate puppies in sunshine too? So Nick, we've done our top ten. just quickly, look, we had Gollum at number ten, the wargs at number nine, the mouth of Sauron at number eight, number seven was the Fellbeast, number six was the Watcher in the Water, number five was the King of the Dead and his army, four was the Marshraiths, three was the Nazgul, number two was the Balrog, and number one was Shelob. Final thoughts on our top ten. Did we nail it? Did we disagree to the point where you're not gonna do the Hobbit with me? what where did you land with our final results? Are we not on speaking terms anymore? I d I'm I'm very curious.
Nick: Worst list ever.
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: No, all things all things, I think we have a very, very solid list. I will say that one thing as we talked and as I even thought about coming to this, I do think Gollum could arguably be higher on the list as far as like higher ranked because of just the baby eating cannibalism. But I think we have a pretty solid list that that feels pretty good. I think you can argue too that maybe the Marsh wraiths could go somewhere on that list at any places. But yeah, other than those two, I was like, I could see moving. I think we just have a very solid list.
Ryan: All in all, I think we I had a lot of fun doing this. And good news, everybody. As we were talking, and even before, I thought of other Middle-earth ones we could do. We could do The Hobbit, we could do Rings of Power,
Nick: yes.
Ryan: we could do. We just got done talking about Ungolion. We could do the Silmarillion. And I know Nick's little nerdy polkin heart would just explode if we were like. Top ten horrors in the Silmarillion. Maybe Nick and I are the only ones that would ever even listen to that, but Ungolion has to be high up on that. And we talked so much about Ungoliount and Morgoth and isn't there a big giant dragon in that one too, Nick? like what's
Nick: multiple.
Ryan: the so many dragons. and you know, hey, which one would you like to see us do next? The Hobbit, Rings of Power, Silmarillion? I you know, I I'm sure we could I'm sure we can make a top ten work with each one of them because Tolkien is known for like hobbits and elves and like wizards and stuff. He created a lot of terrifying things. So, Nick, thank you so much for doing this top ten horrors of Lord of the Rings. we will include links down below for your Substack, for Tolkien Pop, your awesome podcast. is there any last last thought you have, man?
Nick: No, just thanks for doing this. Anytime we can nerd out about this is gonna be awesome. And when you're like,
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: we could do this forever, you know, and I'm like,
Ryan: Yeah.
Nick: you know, the first thing that popped into my head when you were like the Silmarillion and I was just riding on a panda bear on a rainbow and I just wanted to scream, Take me to Pleasure Town, Ryan.
Ryan: my gosh. Anytime, friend. so everybody, as we head off, just remember that even if the horrors persist, so can we.
