WEBVTT
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And I think as we think about healthcare applications, we have to make sure that it's not just available to all, but it's accessible to all.
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And it is something that no matter your technological confidence, you feel it is something that is available and right and usable by you.
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Welcome to Decoded, the podcast where we explore how data, technology, and human insights are reshaping patient care worldwide.
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I'm Jogi Kamlo, biologist dreamer and founder at Sophia Genetics.
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In each episode, we decode ideas with pioneers who have helped shape the way industries think, build, and move forward.
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Today I'm really excited to welcome one of the most prominent leaders of the UK technology scene, who has built a global company and then taken that experience into government.
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Before AI was part of every security strategy, Poppy Gustafson was working on one question: how do you protect an organization from threats nobody has seen before?
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She co-founded Dark Trace in 2013 and became CEO in 2016.
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Under her leadership, the company grew into a global leader in cybersecurity and listed on the London Stock Exchange in 2021.
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In 2024, Dark Trace was acquired by Thomas Bravo for record$5.3 billion.
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The same year, Prime Minister Kirsturmer appointed her Minister of State for Investment.
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Her mission attract investment into the UK economy, promoting the country to investors around the world.
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She sits in the House of Lords as Baroness Gustafson.
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This is a conversation about building a global company from Europe and about what it takes to attract investment and scale ambition, and about how Europe can make AI work for everyone.
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Hi Poppy.
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Hello, Yagi.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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So, Poppy, as I said, you've been uh one of the very successful tech entrepreneurs uh in Europe, but you studied mathematics and then chartered uh accounting.
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How did you end up going to technology space?
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Yeah, I keep trying to persuade everyone that some of the coolest people in the world are chartered accountants, but most people are unconvinced still.
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Um let's remind ourselves that when we founded Dark Trace, I was a CFO.
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So, really, the sort of founding story of Dark Trace was a it was a combination of the sort of brilliant former government intelligence people who were responsible for things like looking after London during the 2012 Olympics and making sure you keep everyone safe.
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And all of they they came with this idea about how you take vast quantities of data and use it to identify those small clues that could be indicative of a threat.
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So you had these people who we affectionately referred to as the spooks, and they came together with mathematicians, which we shall affectionately call the geeks.
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And that was really how Dark Trace came together, it was this combination of the spooks and the geeks.
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My role, and as you point out, I am a mathematician by background, but I was not one of those technologists.
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My role was how do you take these two brilliant sets of people and be that sort of third leg of the stool, which is how do you build a business around them?
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So I was originally CFO way back when that business started.
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And the parts that I was really interested in is how do you bring this to market?
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How do you sell it?
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How do you make it a repeatable process?
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How do you sort of industrialize the business into something that is built for growth?
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Um, but as I reflect, I think my accounting skills have been a real asset to me.
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And I think even during my time as an accountant, I loved, like I've always been numerant, but I love thinking, right, what are the human behaviors that I need to encourage in order to make that number in cell C4 or whatever it is?
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If I want to make that number bigger, what do I have to get Bob in sales to do?
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Like, what are the human behaviors that translate to that financial result?
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And I think that was something that always really interested me.
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And I really enjoyed doing as a CFO, thinking, right, what is it?
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What are the behaviors I need to see change in order to have an income segment that looks more like A, B, or C.
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It's very interesting.
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Or maybe the first uh charter of the content uh who was uh stronger in soft skills than on hard skills is what you just define us, right?
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I mean, it was it was the part that interested me.
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And I think like I think it's it was knowing that and being able to identify the key people behind each of the numbers that you needed to motivate and inspire that you know drove to the success of many businesses.
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But also it meant like later on in my career, going through the IPO and things like this, and you are up against these investors that have incredibly precise and detailed knowledge of your financial results.
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And, you know, sometimes they let's try and bamboozle you with all these challenges around your drop-through margins and whatever it is.
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But having that training meant that you'd always have a really firm underpinning, which either meant I understood it, or I felt very capable of saying, I don't understand what you're asking me.
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Please can you explain that to me in a little bit more detail?
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I never felt insecure about my sort of financial expertise when I was in front of investors.
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Absolutely.
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And was it, by the way, an advantage for Jung not coming originally from the tech world to enable your people to simplify as well their technology, simplify their marketing, simplify the value proposition?
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I think it was.
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And coming from a maths background, as soon as you say you've got a maths degree, everyone says, Oh, you must be really clever.
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I sort of bask in the glory of that, you know, association.
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But then also, secondly, they'll say, Oh, I can't do maths.
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And you think you can absolutely do maths.
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These are my friends coming to me saying, Oh, I can't do math.
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I think you're doing maths all the time.
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Like maths is just logic and reasoning, and it's not arithmetic or things like that, which people often think.
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And you quickly realize that when people say, I can't do maths, what they mean is I can't understand algebra, is what they really mean.
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I I don't speak the language of mathematics.
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And we had this brilliant lecture during our my math degree, which was by this professor who is teaching like the history of mathematics and like how zero was first introduced and things like this.
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But one of the things he did was Pythagoras's theorem, so right angle triangle x squared plus y squared equals z squared.
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And he did a visual proof of it.
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So instead of talking in X and Y's and Z as I just did, he just had a selection of triangles on the overhead projector, as it was in those days, and shuffled them about and was able to sort of visually articulate why Pythagoras's theorem must be right.
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And that was a really valuable moment for me because I thought what this guy has done is he's made those mathematical logical principles accessible, even if you don't speak the language of mathematics.
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And then fast forward to thinking about dark trace, you are building this incredibly complicated AI system.
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And if you're not careful, when you're trying to sell it, you very quickly end up having a conversation about algorithms and the technology and recursive Bayesian inference and all these things that are great, but are not really what the technology is about.
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It's there to solve problems.
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And I think if you're able to communicate the power of computer science in a language that's accessible to people that don't just come from that computer science background, it would unlock a much larger market for us to be able to come in and sell into.
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And I think that's one of the things that we did really well at Dark Trace.
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Absolutely.
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Well, there is uh a lot of hope now for the one listening and who are not necessarily uh technologists or data scientists, starting from finance background, as we just understood, uh one can lead as well a leading uh tech company dominating a space.
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So, Poppy, uh, as you said, you started as a CFO, became CEO in 2016.
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The company grew massively, if I'm not mistaken, you've been serving over 10,000 uh organizations, which are mainly customers with your software or by AI, 2,400 employees.
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Uh, at the time I think you sold the company to uh Thomas Bravo.
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What have been in your journey, your main learnings uh to become a very effective CEO?
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I think communication is something that was really important as the business scales.
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And I think early on in a business, you know everyone.
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You know all of their names, you know the names of their kids, you know what role they do, and you've met all of them.
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And you can communicate with quite a lot of nuance.
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So we're gonna try and do this, we're gonna see if this works.
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If it does work, it'll look a bit like this.
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If it doesn't work, we'll probably see it pop out here and let's keep an eye on it and see how it goes.
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When you've got a much larger organization, you no longer communicate to all of your employees, you're communicating through your employees.
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You take your messages and pass it on.
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So you have to be much more binary in your communication.
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We will do this, it will be done on Tuesday, and it will look like this.
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You can't articulate nuance because that gets sort of filtered down and turns into something else as it as it moves through the organization.
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So that was a real, that was a real sort of learning for me, is feeling I can no longer communicate to people on that one-on-one basis.
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It had to be through a much more strict and rigorous communication style.
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So that was a bit of a learning process for me, and that probably happened around sort of 250 people or so, where I really had to think about how it was that I communicated and I could no longer just rely on knowing everyone.
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So I can remember going through that process and that feeling quite challenging.
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The other thing I think that I really valued was my C-suite.
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So the team I had around me were just phenomenal.
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Like they were so good at what they did.
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And I always used to try and think about it in terms of sort of balance.
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So if you think I used to sort of visually picture like an umbrella once it's put up, and you have these opposing forces that keep the whole structure tight, and you need someone that's very strong at a particular aspect that could be like commercial, but that's going to put a little bit of a strain against the technology aspect, which is going to put a little bit of a strain against that operational aspect, which put a bit of a constrain against your financial.
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And everything's in slight tension with each other as the business is growing, and it needs to be in tension with each other in order to function, but you can't have too much tension.
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And thinking about how you structure that C-suite to make sure that there is the appropriate amount of tension and that all perspectives are heard and voiced, but no particular one is overly dominating at any given time, was something that I really, really enjoyed doing, but was a sort of ever-changing beast.
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Like it would it would be around all the time.
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But I really loved that.
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Excellent.
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Uh I can share I had the same experience as you when uh at Sophia we were around 250 as well.
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And when you realize that things change and you're moving from people to process, and that indeed you cannot speak to the department in a non-structured way, right?
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And uh for me at least it was not an easy thing.
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Uh, and I can recognize that for you it's something you have to work on, uh, despite all the discipline you had already with your degree in mathematics and in accounting.
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Especially because, like, if you're a relationships person, which a lot of CEOs are, you often trade on those relationships in order to get stuff done.
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And when you reach a certain size, that's no longer, you can't just rely on that.
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And you have to learn a new way to mobilize your workforce at scale that isn't just relying on people wanting to do it for you.
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Absolutely.
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And this across five continents until Darktress was acquired in 2024 by Toma Bravo.
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Was for you this a sign as well of all the success that was built over the years?
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Yes, I think so.
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And it also, like I stood down at the Toma Bravo acquisition just before.
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And I think one of my methods of scaling the business is always to try and spot those brilliant people in your business that seem to sort of do everything.
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And you know who it is, those people that like know where all the how to make the printer work and know the contacts for so and so.
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And when you've got a difficult customer coming in, they're the person you go to.
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And every team has them, and it's your responsibility to sort of find who they are, but then replace them with a structure around them and allow that person to go off and find the next big bottleneck or challenge within the business that then they go and solve.
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And then you sort of chase them through the business and resolve it with process.
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But I was aware, as the time of Bravo acquisition was coming to a close, that I was becoming a bit of the rate limiting step of the business.
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And I think that's partly because you spend so long within a business and you know it so intimately that you're weighed down with all of the things that you have tried and failed to do in the past, and you almost become that person that's like, oh no, we've tried that and didn't work because of A, B, and C.
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And I was very, very conscious that it needed that fresh perspective.
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And this was the ideal time for it to be able to come and do.
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So, yes, it was a consequence of the success, which I'm incredibly proud of.
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But I was also acutely aware that for the next chapter of the business, it did need someone that would have the energy and the perspective to try out new things again.
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Thank you for being so so candid.
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I think uh this is uh very uh refreshing uh actually, because you know, some people believe that they can be Superman or Suoman, and uh, you know, will always be the most pertinent and so on, and so uh with as well the messages you pass on the value of the people, I can really appreciate that this was genuine uh in your case, and that you thought that yeah, indeed, someone else could basically take your bat on and uh unable to even grow further the impact of um of Dark Trace.
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Speaking about you, so at that time when uh successfully uh Dark Trace was acquired by Tuma Bravo, you decided uh to make a quite non-conventional move, according at least to what I've seen from other tech entrepreneurs.
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And you went to the UK government as Minister of Investment under Prime Minister Keir Starmer.
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I would be very curious to understand at the time what was your motivation?
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Was it like you wanted to bring something unique, specific to your country?
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Absolutely.
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Like at first, it's an incredible privilege to be asked to do it.
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Um, let's be honest, like it was what, three, four weeks after I'd left Dartrace.
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Timing probably wasn't perfect.
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I could have done with a little bit more time off by the beach drinking cocktails, but you know.
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But I thought you don't you don't say no to an offer like that.
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And I was really excited about the opportunity to come and support, particularly on the growth agenda.
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So thinking about how do we really think about the UK economy and put that growth back into it.
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And the government was talking about growth being its priority, and I wanted to be a part of that, so it was something that I grabbed with with both hands and thought, you know, I've gotta I'm keen to come and give it a go.
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And I did really enjoy it.
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I really enjoyed my time.
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So, Poppy, in this capacity, you led the government's office for investment and promoted the UK all around the world.
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What did the job involve and uh what did you achieve as well uh from where you sat now, what makes global investors choose a specific country like the UK?
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I think I went all over for my role, as you said.
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And with the exception of one country, everywhere was incredibly positive on the UK.
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And what they loved was, you know, rule of law, a fantastic educated population that has incredible skills.
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The other thing they really loved that we sort of don't necessarily take advantage of, we've got a very diverse population.
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Uh, so if you're in healthcare, that's a real sort of valuable asset.
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Stable, perhaps not consistent government, but you know, a stable government, and everyone really liked that great infrastructure and very well connected.
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The place that was most negative about the UK was the UK.
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And I think whenever you spoke to people within Britain, we're all a little bit down in the dumps about the UK.
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But outside, everyone was incredibly positive about the UK and wanted, really saw it as a sort of first-class place to be able to come and expand their businesses or to be able to make investments.
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It's interesting.
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Maybe there are other countries uh I thought about France where the French are probably the most critical as well about their own government.
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But I'm not going together.
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I wouldn't like to be a politician nowadays myself.
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I found it a very, very hard job.
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Nobody likes you in the end.
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So, from your experience, how would you compare the fast-moving technology world you've been in, uh, including leading direct race versus the more administrative and consensual culture in a government?
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Uh it's obviously it's much slower being in government.
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But I was expecting it to be, but also I want it to be, because in your role as minister, you have a lot of people coming into your office and saying, what government needs to do is A, B, and C, and they're very vocal about this, and they've got a you know, corporate governments team or corporate affairs team who come in and like lobby and they're very well paid and they're very articulate, and they really want to hammer home what it is that their business needs to be able to succeed in the UK.
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And that's absolutely right, they should be doing it.
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The government's role is to then think, okay, right, well, what are the what are the consequences?
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What are the voices that aren't at the table?
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What's the impact to them, whether it's small business or you know, the domestic expertise or whatever it is, and they have to go and find out the impact to those people about, you know, how would they be infected if we implemented A, B, and C.
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So it does have to be a slow and methodical process.
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Like government is not a business.
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You can't just make a decision, and if it's not working, think, oh, oops, let's stop doing that then.
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Like the consequences may not be felt for many, many years after making a decision, by which time you could have caused some serious harm.
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So government is much, much slower, and it's right that it's much slower because it's dealing with some incredibly important issues that does require proper thought and consideration.
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I wouldn't want my government to be thoughtless like that.
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I think the thing that surprised me is that it's much less of a team sport than businesses.
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And whenever I had an idea when I was running a business, I'd be like, I've got a great idea.
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And then people would queue up to tell me all the ways in which my idea was completely rubbish.
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Uh, and then it would iterate, and then we'd have something that was much better at the back of it.
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In government, if you have a great idea, I'd pitch it to the civil servants, and people would nod and smile, and then go off and deliver it.
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And I'm like, what?
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It's just come out of my brain.
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Like this needs a little bit more sort of challenge.
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And I think it's much there's a lot of reverence for the ministerial group that I felt a little found a bit uncomfortable.
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I wanted more sort of challenge than perhaps I received.
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Wow, that's super interesting.
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I would have almost expected the opposite.
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So you're telling us that actually maybe a government is a bit less consensual administratively versus uh a company, or at least versus how you led your company, where we understood that people are very, very important for you, and were, as you said, you want it as well to have diverse opinions in your C suite to make sure that when you were taking an opinion uh decision, it was the right one.
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Both at the dark face and uh within the UK government, uh, you're being close to very strategic technological developments.
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And as you know, some people today say that Europe is lagging in technology, uh, and in particular in AI, which is something close to your heart as well.
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What are your thoughts?
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Do you think that Europe is lagging because of our inability Of building new technology, our inability on, I would say, strong academic scientific background, our inability on investing enough money, or our policies.
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What are the limiting factors in your opinion and from your experience?
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:21.519
It's so challenging, isn't it?
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:28.960
Because the reality is, is there's a huge competition between China and America.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:34.240
And Europe is a distant cousin in that, in that competition.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.920
And we're struggling to get our voice heard.
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.319
But also what is our identity?
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:54.240
Like how what's our role in this dynamic of China versus America as a race to sort of gain dominance within technology or whatever it is that they're competing against?
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.160
And I don't know that we know the answer to that.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:03.279
I don't think Europe's quite figured out its cause or purpose.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.440
And I think that's where it perhaps lags behind.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:26.720
Um, it doesn't lag behind in expertise and capability, like we have got some of the best and brilliant minds, and there's fantastic technology coming out of UK and Europe all of the time, and we have the privilege to see a lot of a lot of it, you and I, given our roles, and that's a real luxury.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.559
I think we do have a challenge around the financing side.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:37.440
And you look at the incredible companies coming out of America who are doing amazing things, but they're burning cash hand over fist.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.240
And at some point that'll change and they'll be making money.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.240
But we as Europeans, we find that a little bit more distasteful.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:49.839
We'd much rather see businesses making money earlier than they do in the US.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.079
And I think that causes a little bit of a limitation in our our ability to our ability to scale.
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:08.000
But I think Europe is unfairly, or Europe is often characterized as overly regulated.
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:15.279
And I know that in the past there has been regulation that has been very constrained to businesses and their ability to innovate.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:24.319
But technology is ultimately a trust game, and we need people to trust in the technology in order for them to use it.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:29.119
And as we all know, that trust is hard fought and quickly lost.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:35.359
And regulation is a tool in the armory to build trust.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:53.519
And I wonder whether that is where Europe is able to sort of carve out a little bit of a space for itself, is that it has the really good opportunity to build a high level of trust in the capability that comes out of this what was once characterized as an overly regulated environment.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.079
And I wonder if that may be an opportunity for Europe.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:56.960
I don't know.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:58.000
What do you think?
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.000
Well said, I think so.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:08.319
I think that uh our cultures are being defined as well by uh how we grew up, right?
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:13.519
And uh depending on the civilizations, we we grew up in a certain way.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:27.839
Plus uh Europe obviously in the 40s went through uh the world war, uh second world war, and we had to I think try to to build trust among us while we one would think that we were maybe enemies, right?
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.759
Before that across countries.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:41.200
So if trust is what will uh be required, I hope, I think, that our values and uh the values of our civilization in Europe will help us get there.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:43.119
Fingers crossed.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.880
Yeah, yeah, fingers crossed, absolutely, uh Poppy.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.759
Anyway, we want everyone to win, right?
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.839
And we will touch that uh at the end.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:57.599
Uh it's not about uh the English, about the Europeans, about the Chinese, about the Americans.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:10.480
It's we want a war one word, uh, one word where we can uh as humans all uh all benefit from uh technology but as well uh uh education services, health services and so on.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:29.039
Speaking about healthcare in particular, which as you know is um our domain of expertise and the one where you've been following Sophia as well since quite some time, can we uh Europeans uh make that AI is something that will benefit the most?
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:37.759
Uh, because in our values, uh in general, depending on the systems, let's say the NHS, the ambition is to serve everyone, right?
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:56.319
And like in other countries where maybe there are some discrepancies between uh some populations, uh some having more means and being able to go to expensive private clinics that will best get the best technologies, while others going to community hospitals where they're not going to be served the same way.
00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.559
So do you believe it's a bit of a philosophical question, huh?
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:11.440
Do you believe that AI could be something that makes uh every people benefit from the quite the same quality of care in hospitals?
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:21.039
I I think it it can, and it also absolutely should.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:28.960
And we used to always say that technology was incredibly democratizing.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:44.160
And people would always give the example that you know the CEO of Apple has the same iPhone as your taxi driver in a you know, a third world country using that same capability and that same technology.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.839
And that's that's an amazing, that's an amazing thing to be part of.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:28:07.920
My nervousness shifts a little bit as we see sort of recent geopolitics being overlaid in that, and whether it's you know the latest version of Claude that's being restricted, or for the first time, we're seeing that democratization of technology being inhibited.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:21.839
And that puts a little bit of a sort of an alarm bell in my head as I think we get this wrong if we turn this into a situation where it's not available to all.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.200
And I think a big part of it is accessibility.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:45.680
And I do wonder if we were to get this horribly wrong, the the big disparity that the people will face not only will be sort of economic um disparity, but also technological disparity, like your ability to access the technological advantages that society offers to you.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:29:01.599
So I always think about the example of if you're in London and you're trying to use the underground, if you've got contactless on your phone, you're away, you're through the barriers, it's super easy, very low cost, and it's just just a great way to get around.
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:12.799
Whereas if you're of my parents' generation, who don't necessarily have that, there's no longer the ticket desks, they can't buy themselves a ticket.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:20.319
For them to then access the underground is much more complicated than it ever was, and it's no longer accessible to them.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:30.720
And I think as we think about healthcare applications, we have to make sure that it's not just available to all, but it's accessible to all.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:40.559
And it is something that no matter your technological confidence, you feel it is something that is available and right and usable by you.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:41.920
Very well said.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.720
On the personal note, uh, Poppy, and this will be my last question.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:49.039
You have two young children.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.799
What are you looking forward for the future of humanity?
00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:02.880
I think the first thing to say is that optimism is always a competitive advantage, and I will always have a bit of a sort of optimistic bias.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:16.559
And I think what I love about technology is that it's so unpredictable, but it tends to be better than what we predict.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:28.960
Like as humans, we have an acute radar for risk, and we're very good at managing, imagining all the ways that things could go wrong and all the ways in which the world could end.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:34.400
And that's right, it's what's kept us alive and allowed us to evolve into the people that we are today.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:39.519
But we're also very good at underestimating that upside.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:49.519
And I always give the example of um Blade Runner, which was created in 1982, which was the year I was born, and I think it was set in 2020.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:31:17.759
But the future that was imagined in this world was like all these huge concrete buildings everywhere, no trees, everything was concrete, robots everywhere, flying cars, and except when they go to make this incredibly futuristic video call, they park their flying space car and then cross the weird concrete road into a video phone booth to make this video call.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:27.759
And the only reality of today's world compared to this one that's imagined in Blade Runner is that if we want to make a video call, we have that capability in our pocket.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.519
But in 1982, that was unimaginable.
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:41.359
They could imagine robots and concrete jungles, but the reality of that incredible accessibility of communication was unimaginable.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:52.319
And that is what I feel excited about is that that upside that technology will bring to us that will be a reality for my girls, is unimaginable to me today.
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.720
And I think that's why I love being within the technology sector.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.279
Thank you very much, uh, Poppy.
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:06.319
Uh, your message on optimism was uh very, very pertinent and uh and very strong.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:17.759
And definitively we are in a world where the youngest are receiving a lot of, I would say, um messages that create uh fear on themselves.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:23.519
So this was uh something uh that uh was very fresh, I would say.
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:32.000
And uh I hope that uh you're right, and that with this optimism we'll all together be able to create uh a better world for tomorrow.
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.519
Poppy, thank you very much for joining me on Decodi today.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:36.799
It was uh an honor.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:45.599
What I love most from this conversation is the idea that great technology and ambitious policy can work hand on hand to build a better future.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:50.240
And as well, that to make it happen, we need to remain optimistic.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:57.920
From Dark Trace to the UK government, your journey has been about building ambitious companies and attracting the investment that helps them go.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.160
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to Decodit.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.799
We'll continue meeting the leaders and builders shaping the future of Healthcare Technology and AI.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.160
I'm Yo Hy Kamelong.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:11.279
Thank you for listening, and let's keep moving forward.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:10.080
And I think as we think about healthcare applications, we have to make sure that it's not just available to all, but it's accessible to all.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:20.239
And it is something that no matter your technological confidence, you feel it is something that is available and right and usable by you.
00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:28.000
Welcome to Decoded, the podcast where we explore how data, technology, and human insights are reshaping patient care worldwide.
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.399
I'm Jogi Kamlo, biologist dreamer and founder at Sophia Genetics.
00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:40.320
In each episode, we decode ideas with pioneers who have helped shape the way industries think, build, and move forward.
00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:51.759
Today I'm really excited to welcome one of the most prominent leaders of the UK technology scene, who has built a global company and then taken that experience into government.
00:00:52.079 --> 00:01:02.880
Before AI was part of every security strategy, Poppy Gustafson was working on one question: how do you protect an organization from threats nobody has seen before?
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:09.200
She co-founded Dark Trace in 2013 and became CEO in 2016.
00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:19.200
Under her leadership, the company grew into a global leader in cybersecurity and listed on the London Stock Exchange in 2021.
00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:25.920
In 2024, Dark Trace was acquired by Thomas Bravo for record$5.3 billion.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:33.519
The same year, Prime Minister Kirsturmer appointed her Minister of State for Investment.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:40.239
Her mission attract investment into the UK economy, promoting the country to investors around the world.
00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.640
She sits in the House of Lords as Baroness Gustafson.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:57.519
This is a conversation about building a global company from Europe and about what it takes to attract investment and scale ambition, and about how Europe can make AI work for everyone.
00:01:57.760 --> 00:01:58.560
Hi Poppy.
00:01:58.799 --> 00:01:59.439
Hello, Yagi.
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:01.040
It's a pleasure to be here.
00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:14.879
So, Poppy, as I said, you've been uh one of the very successful tech entrepreneurs uh in Europe, but you studied mathematics and then chartered uh accounting.
00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:18.319
How did you end up going to technology space?
00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:26.800
Yeah, I keep trying to persuade everyone that some of the coolest people in the world are chartered accountants, but most people are unconvinced still.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:32.240
Um let's remind ourselves that when we founded Dark Trace, I was a CFO.
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:48.800
So, really, the sort of founding story of Dark Trace was a it was a combination of the sort of brilliant former government intelligence people who were responsible for things like looking after London during the 2012 Olympics and making sure you keep everyone safe.
00:02:48.879 --> 00:03:02.240
And all of they they came with this idea about how you take vast quantities of data and use it to identify those small clues that could be indicative of a threat.
00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:13.199
So you had these people who we affectionately referred to as the spooks, and they came together with mathematicians, which we shall affectionately call the geeks.
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:18.960
And that was really how Dark Trace came together, it was this combination of the spooks and the geeks.
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:25.680
My role, and as you point out, I am a mathematician by background, but I was not one of those technologists.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:34.639
My role was how do you take these two brilliant sets of people and be that sort of third leg of the stool, which is how do you build a business around them?
00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:39.280
So I was originally CFO way back when that business started.
00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:43.840
And the parts that I was really interested in is how do you bring this to market?
00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:44.560
How do you sell it?
00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.080
How do you make it a repeatable process?
00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:51.599
How do you sort of industrialize the business into something that is built for growth?
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:58.319
Um, but as I reflect, I think my accounting skills have been a real asset to me.
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:15.439
And I think even during my time as an accountant, I loved, like I've always been numerant, but I love thinking, right, what are the human behaviors that I need to encourage in order to make that number in cell C4 or whatever it is?
00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:20.879
If I want to make that number bigger, what do I have to get Bob in sales to do?
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:25.120
Like, what are the human behaviors that translate to that financial result?
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.319
And I think that was something that always really interested me.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:32.480
And I really enjoyed doing as a CFO, thinking, right, what is it?
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:38.480
What are the behaviors I need to see change in order to have an income segment that looks more like A, B, or C.
00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:40.240
It's very interesting.
00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:51.040
Or maybe the first uh charter of the content uh who was uh stronger in soft skills than on hard skills is what you just define us, right?
00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:54.959
I mean, it was it was the part that interested me.
00:04:55.040 --> 00:05:11.839
And I think like I think it's it was knowing that and being able to identify the key people behind each of the numbers that you needed to motivate and inspire that you know drove to the success of many businesses.
00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:25.279
But also it meant like later on in my career, going through the IPO and things like this, and you are up against these investors that have incredibly precise and detailed knowledge of your financial results.
00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:31.600
And, you know, sometimes they let's try and bamboozle you with all these challenges around your drop-through margins and whatever it is.
00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:41.439
But having that training meant that you'd always have a really firm underpinning, which either meant I understood it, or I felt very capable of saying, I don't understand what you're asking me.
00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:43.759
Please can you explain that to me in a little bit more detail?
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:49.519
I never felt insecure about my sort of financial expertise when I was in front of investors.
00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:51.120
Absolutely.
00:05:51.439 --> 00:06:07.120
And was it, by the way, an advantage for Jung not coming originally from the tech world to enable your people to simplify as well their technology, simplify their marketing, simplify the value proposition?
00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:08.240
I think it was.
00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:15.040
And coming from a maths background, as soon as you say you've got a maths degree, everyone says, Oh, you must be really clever.
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:18.800
I sort of bask in the glory of that, you know, association.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.560
But then also, secondly, they'll say, Oh, I can't do maths.
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.519
And you think you can absolutely do maths.
00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:27.759
These are my friends coming to me saying, Oh, I can't do math.
00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:29.920
I think you're doing maths all the time.
00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:38.959
Like maths is just logic and reasoning, and it's not arithmetic or things like that, which people often think.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:47.680
And you quickly realize that when people say, I can't do maths, what they mean is I can't understand algebra, is what they really mean.
00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.879
I I don't speak the language of mathematics.
00:06:51.120 --> 00:07:02.879
And we had this brilliant lecture during our my math degree, which was by this professor who is teaching like the history of mathematics and like how zero was first introduced and things like this.
00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:10.639
But one of the things he did was Pythagoras's theorem, so right angle triangle x squared plus y squared equals z squared.
00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:13.199
And he did a visual proof of it.
00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:28.480
So instead of talking in X and Y's and Z as I just did, he just had a selection of triangles on the overhead projector, as it was in those days, and shuffled them about and was able to sort of visually articulate why Pythagoras's theorem must be right.
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:41.759
And that was a really valuable moment for me because I thought what this guy has done is he's made those mathematical logical principles accessible, even if you don't speak the language of mathematics.
00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:50.079
And then fast forward to thinking about dark trace, you are building this incredibly complicated AI system.
00:07:50.399 --> 00:08:04.639
And if you're not careful, when you're trying to sell it, you very quickly end up having a conversation about algorithms and the technology and recursive Bayesian inference and all these things that are great, but are not really what the technology is about.
00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:06.319
It's there to solve problems.
00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:21.279
And I think if you're able to communicate the power of computer science in a language that's accessible to people that don't just come from that computer science background, it would unlock a much larger market for us to be able to come in and sell into.
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.240
And I think that's one of the things that we did really well at Dark Trace.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:25.279
Absolutely.
00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:43.279
Well, there is uh a lot of hope now for the one listening and who are not necessarily uh technologists or data scientists, starting from finance background, as we just understood, uh one can lead as well a leading uh tech company dominating a space.
00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:49.759
So, Poppy, uh, as you said, you started as a CFO, became CEO in 2016.
00:08:50.240 --> 00:09:03.759
The company grew massively, if I'm not mistaken, you've been serving over 10,000 uh organizations, which are mainly customers with your software or by AI, 2,400 employees.
00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:07.840
Uh, at the time I think you sold the company to uh Thomas Bravo.
00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:15.279
What have been in your journey, your main learnings uh to become a very effective CEO?
00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:24.399
I think communication is something that was really important as the business scales.
00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:28.000
And I think early on in a business, you know everyone.
00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:34.320
You know all of their names, you know the names of their kids, you know what role they do, and you've met all of them.
00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:37.840
And you can communicate with quite a lot of nuance.
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.440
So we're gonna try and do this, we're gonna see if this works.
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:43.200
If it does work, it'll look a bit like this.
00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.240
If it doesn't work, we'll probably see it pop out here and let's keep an eye on it and see how it goes.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:56.240
When you've got a much larger organization, you no longer communicate to all of your employees, you're communicating through your employees.
00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.159
You take your messages and pass it on.
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.480
So you have to be much more binary in your communication.
00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:06.320
We will do this, it will be done on Tuesday, and it will look like this.
00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:14.720
You can't articulate nuance because that gets sort of filtered down and turns into something else as it as it moves through the organization.
00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:22.960
So that was a real, that was a real sort of learning for me, is feeling I can no longer communicate to people on that one-on-one basis.
00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:29.519
It had to be through a much more strict and rigorous communication style.
00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:41.360
So that was a bit of a learning process for me, and that probably happened around sort of 250 people or so, where I really had to think about how it was that I communicated and I could no longer just rely on knowing everyone.
00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:47.039
So I can remember going through that process and that feeling quite challenging.
00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:53.360
The other thing I think that I really valued was my C-suite.
00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:57.919
So the team I had around me were just phenomenal.
00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:00.240
Like they were so good at what they did.
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:06.559
And I always used to try and think about it in terms of sort of balance.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:30.399
So if you think I used to sort of visually picture like an umbrella once it's put up, and you have these opposing forces that keep the whole structure tight, and you need someone that's very strong at a particular aspect that could be like commercial, but that's going to put a little bit of a strain against the technology aspect, which is going to put a little bit of a strain against that operational aspect, which put a bit of a constrain against your financial.
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:40.720
And everything's in slight tension with each other as the business is growing, and it needs to be in tension with each other in order to function, but you can't have too much tension.
00:11:40.879 --> 00:12:01.519
And thinking about how you structure that C-suite to make sure that there is the appropriate amount of tension and that all perspectives are heard and voiced, but no particular one is overly dominating at any given time, was something that I really, really enjoyed doing, but was a sort of ever-changing beast.
00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.240
Like it would it would be around all the time.
00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.159
But I really loved that.
00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:07.279
Excellent.
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:15.440
Uh I can share I had the same experience as you when uh at Sophia we were around 250 as well.
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:25.279
And when you realize that things change and you're moving from people to process, and that indeed you cannot speak to the department in a non-structured way, right?
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.080
And uh for me at least it was not an easy thing.
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:36.799
Uh, and I can recognize that for you it's something you have to work on, uh, despite all the discipline you had already with your degree in mathematics and in accounting.
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:45.679
Especially because, like, if you're a relationships person, which a lot of CEOs are, you often trade on those relationships in order to get stuff done.
00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:51.120
And when you reach a certain size, that's no longer, you can't just rely on that.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:13:00.559
And you have to learn a new way to mobilize your workforce at scale that isn't just relying on people wanting to do it for you.
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:01.679
Absolutely.
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:11.679
And this across five continents until Darktress was acquired in 2024 by Toma Bravo.
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.879
Was for you this a sign as well of all the success that was built over the years?
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:18.080
Yes, I think so.
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:25.519
And it also, like I stood down at the Toma Bravo acquisition just before.
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:38.480
And I think one of my methods of scaling the business is always to try and spot those brilliant people in your business that seem to sort of do everything.
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:45.600
And you know who it is, those people that like know where all the how to make the printer work and know the contacts for so and so.
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.200
And when you've got a difficult customer coming in, they're the person you go to.
00:13:49.600 --> 00:14:04.399
And every team has them, and it's your responsibility to sort of find who they are, but then replace them with a structure around them and allow that person to go off and find the next big bottleneck or challenge within the business that then they go and solve.
00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.559
And then you sort of chase them through the business and resolve it with process.
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:17.360
But I was aware, as the time of Bravo acquisition was coming to a close, that I was becoming a bit of the rate limiting step of the business.
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:35.360
And I think that's partly because you spend so long within a business and you know it so intimately that you're weighed down with all of the things that you have tried and failed to do in the past, and you almost become that person that's like, oh no, we've tried that and didn't work because of A, B, and C.
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:41.600
And I was very, very conscious that it needed that fresh perspective.
00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.759
And this was the ideal time for it to be able to come and do.
00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:51.039
So, yes, it was a consequence of the success, which I'm incredibly proud of.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:15:00.559
But I was also acutely aware that for the next chapter of the business, it did need someone that would have the energy and the perspective to try out new things again.
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:02.879
Thank you for being so so candid.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:35.360
I think uh this is uh very uh refreshing uh actually, because you know, some people believe that they can be Superman or Suoman, and uh, you know, will always be the most pertinent and so on, and so uh with as well the messages you pass on the value of the people, I can really appreciate that this was genuine uh in your case, and that you thought that yeah, indeed, someone else could basically take your bat on and uh unable to even grow further the impact of um of Dark Trace.
00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:51.200
Speaking about you, so at that time when uh successfully uh Dark Trace was acquired by Tuma Bravo, you decided uh to make a quite non-conventional move, according at least to what I've seen from other tech entrepreneurs.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:57.919
And you went to the UK government as Minister of Investment under Prime Minister Keir Starmer.
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.240
I would be very curious to understand at the time what was your motivation?
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:06.639
Was it like you wanted to bring something unique, specific to your country?
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.000
Absolutely.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.320
Like at first, it's an incredible privilege to be asked to do it.
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:17.279
Um, let's be honest, like it was what, three, four weeks after I'd left Dartrace.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:18.879
Timing probably wasn't perfect.
00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:23.360
I could have done with a little bit more time off by the beach drinking cocktails, but you know.
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.039
But I thought you don't you don't say no to an offer like that.
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:31.440
And I was really excited about the opportunity to come and support, particularly on the growth agenda.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:38.320
So thinking about how do we really think about the UK economy and put that growth back into it.
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:51.360
And the government was talking about growth being its priority, and I wanted to be a part of that, so it was something that I grabbed with with both hands and thought, you know, I've gotta I'm keen to come and give it a go.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:52.559
And I did really enjoy it.
00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:53.679
I really enjoyed my time.
00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:01.679
So, Poppy, in this capacity, you led the government's office for investment and promoted the UK all around the world.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:12.400
What did the job involve and uh what did you achieve as well uh from where you sat now, what makes global investors choose a specific country like the UK?
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.119
I think I went all over for my role, as you said.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:25.119
And with the exception of one country, everywhere was incredibly positive on the UK.
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:34.960
And what they loved was, you know, rule of law, a fantastic educated population that has incredible skills.
00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:40.400
The other thing they really loved that we sort of don't necessarily take advantage of, we've got a very diverse population.
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:45.359
Uh, so if you're in healthcare, that's a real sort of valuable asset.
00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:54.559
Stable, perhaps not consistent government, but you know, a stable government, and everyone really liked that great infrastructure and very well connected.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.960
The place that was most negative about the UK was the UK.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:05.599
And I think whenever you spoke to people within Britain, we're all a little bit down in the dumps about the UK.
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:16.880
But outside, everyone was incredibly positive about the UK and wanted, really saw it as a sort of first-class place to be able to come and expand their businesses or to be able to make investments.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:18.000
It's interesting.
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:25.519
Maybe there are other countries uh I thought about France where the French are probably the most critical as well about their own government.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:26.960
But I'm not going together.
00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.000
I wouldn't like to be a politician nowadays myself.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.240
I found it a very, very hard job.
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.000
Nobody likes you in the end.
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:48.640
So, from your experience, how would you compare the fast-moving technology world you've been in, uh, including leading direct race versus the more administrative and consensual culture in a government?
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:53.440
Uh it's obviously it's much slower being in government.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:21.759
But I was expecting it to be, but also I want it to be, because in your role as minister, you have a lot of people coming into your office and saying, what government needs to do is A, B, and C, and they're very vocal about this, and they've got a you know, corporate governments team or corporate affairs team who come in and like lobby and they're very well paid and they're very articulate, and they really want to hammer home what it is that their business needs to be able to succeed in the UK.
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.319
And that's absolutely right, they should be doing it.
00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:28.880
The government's role is to then think, okay, right, well, what are the what are the consequences?
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.039
What are the voices that aren't at the table?
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:44.559
What's the impact to them, whether it's small business or you know, the domestic expertise or whatever it is, and they have to go and find out the impact to those people about, you know, how would they be infected if we implemented A, B, and C.
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:49.680
So it does have to be a slow and methodical process.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:51.519
Like government is not a business.
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.319
You can't just make a decision, and if it's not working, think, oh, oops, let's stop doing that then.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:03.599
Like the consequences may not be felt for many, many years after making a decision, by which time you could have caused some serious harm.
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:13.039
So government is much, much slower, and it's right that it's much slower because it's dealing with some incredibly important issues that does require proper thought and consideration.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.000
I wouldn't want my government to be thoughtless like that.
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:24.079
I think the thing that surprised me is that it's much less of a team sport than businesses.
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:32.559
And whenever I had an idea when I was running a business, I'd be like, I've got a great idea.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.880
And then people would queue up to tell me all the ways in which my idea was completely rubbish.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:41.039
Uh, and then it would iterate, and then we'd have something that was much better at the back of it.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:49.519
In government, if you have a great idea, I'd pitch it to the civil servants, and people would nod and smile, and then go off and deliver it.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:50.400
And I'm like, what?
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.640
It's just come out of my brain.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.599
Like this needs a little bit more sort of challenge.
00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:06.640
And I think it's much there's a lot of reverence for the ministerial group that I felt a little found a bit uncomfortable.
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.559
I wanted more sort of challenge than perhaps I received.
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:12.400
Wow, that's super interesting.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.799
I would have almost expected the opposite.
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:36.160
So you're telling us that actually maybe a government is a bit less consensual administratively versus uh a company, or at least versus how you led your company, where we understood that people are very, very important for you, and were, as you said, you want it as well to have diverse opinions in your C suite to make sure that when you were taking an opinion uh decision, it was the right one.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:45.200
Both at the dark face and uh within the UK government, uh, you're being close to very strategic technological developments.
00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:54.960
And as you know, some people today say that Europe is lagging in technology, uh, and in particular in AI, which is something close to your heart as well.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:56.079
What are your thoughts?
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:16.559
Do you think that Europe is lagging because of our inability Of building new technology, our inability on, I would say, strong academic scientific background, our inability on investing enough money, or our policies.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.920
What are the limiting factors in your opinion and from your experience?
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:21.519
It's so challenging, isn't it?
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:28.960
Because the reality is, is there's a huge competition between China and America.
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:34.240
And Europe is a distant cousin in that, in that competition.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.920
And we're struggling to get our voice heard.
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.319
But also what is our identity?
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:54.240
Like how what's our role in this dynamic of China versus America as a race to sort of gain dominance within technology or whatever it is that they're competing against?
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.160
And I don't know that we know the answer to that.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:03.279
I don't think Europe's quite figured out its cause or purpose.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.440
And I think that's where it perhaps lags behind.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:26.720
Um, it doesn't lag behind in expertise and capability, like we have got some of the best and brilliant minds, and there's fantastic technology coming out of UK and Europe all of the time, and we have the privilege to see a lot of a lot of it, you and I, given our roles, and that's a real luxury.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.559
I think we do have a challenge around the financing side.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:37.440
And you look at the incredible companies coming out of America who are doing amazing things, but they're burning cash hand over fist.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.240
And at some point that'll change and they'll be making money.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.240
But we as Europeans, we find that a little bit more distasteful.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:49.839
We'd much rather see businesses making money earlier than they do in the US.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.079
And I think that causes a little bit of a limitation in our our ability to our ability to scale.
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:08.000
But I think Europe is unfairly, or Europe is often characterized as overly regulated.
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:15.279
And I know that in the past there has been regulation that has been very constrained to businesses and their ability to innovate.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:24.319
But technology is ultimately a trust game, and we need people to trust in the technology in order for them to use it.
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:29.119
And as we all know, that trust is hard fought and quickly lost.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:35.359
And regulation is a tool in the armory to build trust.
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:53.519
And I wonder whether that is where Europe is able to sort of carve out a little bit of a space for itself, is that it has the really good opportunity to build a high level of trust in the capability that comes out of this what was once characterized as an overly regulated environment.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.079
And I wonder if that may be an opportunity for Europe.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:56.960
I don't know.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:58.000
What do you think?
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.000
Well said, I think so.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:08.319
I think that uh our cultures are being defined as well by uh how we grew up, right?
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:13.519
And uh depending on the civilizations, we we grew up in a certain way.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:27.839
Plus uh Europe obviously in the 40s went through uh the world war, uh second world war, and we had to I think try to to build trust among us while we one would think that we were maybe enemies, right?
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.759
Before that across countries.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:41.200
So if trust is what will uh be required, I hope, I think, that our values and uh the values of our civilization in Europe will help us get there.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:43.119
Fingers crossed.
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.880
Yeah, yeah, fingers crossed, absolutely, uh Poppy.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.759
Anyway, we want everyone to win, right?
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.839
And we will touch that uh at the end.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:57.599
Uh it's not about uh the English, about the Europeans, about the Chinese, about the Americans.
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:10.480
It's we want a war one word, uh, one word where we can uh as humans all uh all benefit from uh technology but as well uh uh education services, health services and so on.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:29.039
Speaking about healthcare in particular, which as you know is um our domain of expertise and the one where you've been following Sophia as well since quite some time, can we uh Europeans uh make that AI is something that will benefit the most?
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:37.759
Uh, because in our values, uh in general, depending on the systems, let's say the NHS, the ambition is to serve everyone, right?
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:56.319
And like in other countries where maybe there are some discrepancies between uh some populations, uh some having more means and being able to go to expensive private clinics that will best get the best technologies, while others going to community hospitals where they're not going to be served the same way.
00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:00.559
So do you believe it's a bit of a philosophical question, huh?
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:11.440
Do you believe that AI could be something that makes uh every people benefit from the quite the same quality of care in hospitals?
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:21.039
I I think it it can, and it also absolutely should.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:28.960
And we used to always say that technology was incredibly democratizing.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:44.160
And people would always give the example that you know the CEO of Apple has the same iPhone as your taxi driver in a you know, a third world country using that same capability and that same technology.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:47.839
And that's that's an amazing, that's an amazing thing to be part of.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:28:07.920
My nervousness shifts a little bit as we see sort of recent geopolitics being overlaid in that, and whether it's you know the latest version of Claude that's being restricted, or for the first time, we're seeing that democratization of technology being inhibited.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:21.839
And that puts a little bit of a sort of an alarm bell in my head as I think we get this wrong if we turn this into a situation where it's not available to all.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.200
And I think a big part of it is accessibility.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:45.680
And I do wonder if we were to get this horribly wrong, the the big disparity that the people will face not only will be sort of economic um disparity, but also technological disparity, like your ability to access the technological advantages that society offers to you.
00:28:45.839 --> 00:29:01.599
So I always think about the example of if you're in London and you're trying to use the underground, if you've got contactless on your phone, you're away, you're through the barriers, it's super easy, very low cost, and it's just just a great way to get around.
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:12.799
Whereas if you're of my parents' generation, who don't necessarily have that, there's no longer the ticket desks, they can't buy themselves a ticket.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:20.319
For them to then access the underground is much more complicated than it ever was, and it's no longer accessible to them.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:30.720
And I think as we think about healthcare applications, we have to make sure that it's not just available to all, but it's accessible to all.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:40.559
And it is something that no matter your technological confidence, you feel it is something that is available and right and usable by you.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:41.920
Very well said.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:46.720
On the personal note, uh, Poppy, and this will be my last question.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:49.039
You have two young children.
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.799
What are you looking forward for the future of humanity?
00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:02.880
I think the first thing to say is that optimism is always a competitive advantage, and I will always have a bit of a sort of optimistic bias.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:16.559
And I think what I love about technology is that it's so unpredictable, but it tends to be better than what we predict.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:28.960
Like as humans, we have an acute radar for risk, and we're very good at managing, imagining all the ways that things could go wrong and all the ways in which the world could end.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:34.400
And that's right, it's what's kept us alive and allowed us to evolve into the people that we are today.
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:39.519
But we're also very good at underestimating that upside.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:49.519
And I always give the example of um Blade Runner, which was created in 1982, which was the year I was born, and I think it was set in 2020.
00:30:49.839 --> 00:31:17.759
But the future that was imagined in this world was like all these huge concrete buildings everywhere, no trees, everything was concrete, robots everywhere, flying cars, and except when they go to make this incredibly futuristic video call, they park their flying space car and then cross the weird concrete road into a video phone booth to make this video call.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:27.759
And the only reality of today's world compared to this one that's imagined in Blade Runner is that if we want to make a video call, we have that capability in our pocket.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.519
But in 1982, that was unimaginable.
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:41.359
They could imagine robots and concrete jungles, but the reality of that incredible accessibility of communication was unimaginable.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:52.319
And that is what I feel excited about is that that upside that technology will bring to us that will be a reality for my girls, is unimaginable to me today.
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:56.720
And I think that's why I love being within the technology sector.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.279
Thank you very much, uh, Poppy.
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:06.319
Uh, your message on optimism was uh very, very pertinent and uh and very strong.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:17.759
And definitively we are in a world where the youngest are receiving a lot of, I would say, um messages that create uh fear on themselves.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:23.519
So this was uh something uh that uh was very fresh, I would say.
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:32.000
And uh I hope that uh you're right, and that with this optimism we'll all together be able to create uh a better world for tomorrow.
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.519
Poppy, thank you very much for joining me on Decodi today.
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:36.799
It was uh an honor.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:45.599
What I love most from this conversation is the idea that great technology and ambitious policy can work hand on hand to build a better future.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:50.240
And as well, that to make it happen, we need to remain optimistic.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:57.920
From Dark Trace to the UK government, your journey has been about building ambitious companies and attracting the investment that helps them go.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.160
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe to Decodit.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.799
We'll continue meeting the leaders and builders shaping the future of Healthcare Technology and AI.
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:08.160
I'm Yo Hy Kamelong.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:11.279
Thank you for listening, and let's keep moving forward.
