Zero: 0:00
On this very special episode of Dad You're Wrong. We are re-recording a part two we already did, because part of the episode was lost and that meant that we didn't have a full episode. But I think we should replace episodes that are lost anyway. And this one was a part two. So we're back for an episode no one else heard, but we're kind of working off the notes from what we do still have. So this episode might be a little weird.
Chicory: 0:29
It will be a little bit weird, but that's okay. It'll be okay.
Zero: 0:32
We are nothing if not a little weird.
Chicory: 0:34
Something like that. Anyway, Zero, help me. I need a crutch.
Zero: 0:41
Let's do the intro, while you think.
Chicory: 0:43
Oh Shit. You're right. Buy time, buy time. Welcome to Dad You're Wrong. Regularly ruminating on rhetorical reasoning for regaling irrational relations with the ramifications of reality.
Zero: 0:54
I'm zero.
Chicory: 0:56
I'm Chicory. People call me Chi.
Chicory: 0:59
So to recap, we were playing D&D proper and the GM did a terrible Asian racist accent and I tried to call him on it and he was like, "There aren't any Asians present" or something like that. And then later in the game, he threw in a non-player character as part of a gang of people that we needed to fight and he was being funny. And he made like a "SHE" joke where the NPC was suddenly a girl and then he said, or they or whatever. And then the other player character was trying to be nice and say like, No, it's like dehumanizing someone to call them a "they" or an "it" And I was like,
Chicory: 1:44
No, some people use the pronoun they. They them theirs. And I kind of made the flash decision not to say "I'm one of those people" because of already having seen the reaction to being called out with not understanding that being racist is a bad thing, even when there are no other people around. So I just didn't wanna start that shit, and that was kind of where we left off from the last time we where this time we're gonna talk about why I didn't want to do that and the ramifications of outing yourself and why sometimes it can feel [uncomfortable noise] suspense and icky and not good to do that.
Zero: 2:31
Yeah, that's a pretty decent sort of summary of where we ended up and where we're going with in this episode as a follow up. So something I want to ask, "Do you think you would have felt comfortable with they/them conversation if you hadn't already had the "Yes, Racism is bad, even if there are none of the people you're being racist towards around" conversation?
Chicory: 2:53
Hmmmmmmmm
Chicory: 2:55
You know, maybe like these guys didn't seem like that bad of guys.
Zero: 3:03
So then, in terms of outing yourself, your concern was not specifically with outing yourself to these people until it was clear that these people, whatever they may have thought about themselves and their reputations in communities as tolerant individuals, they were not displaying that tolerance actively in a situation where they felt they didn't have to.
Chicory: 3:29
Yeah
Zero: 3:31
So I think just starting there is perhaps something that we can talk about in a general discussion beyond the actual like... Like, we should talk about what you say to people after they've already dinged your trust a bit. Because that's sort of what we're talking about is they had already shown themselves to be not entirely trustworthy. And then they did a thing where maybe you could have started a conversation there. I think this is what Dad You're Wrong hinges around is this idea that there are some people you CAN talk to and you feel like you can talk to and One your determination for those people are is a lot more lenient than mine, and that's why you're gonna have more of these stories. But you don't think that they became bad people just because they made that one joke. But it's then scared off you from having perhaps a conversation. No one can see it so they don't know that you're not from any part of Asia.
Chicory: 4:31
No.
Zero: 4:31
So, like making a joke about the R L sounds in Chinese and Japanese language. It offends you because you're not a terrible person, but it doesn't have the personal impact on you. Well, I mean, outside of some of your relatives. But in terms of personal impact, the second circumstance has a lot more personal impact on you than the first. But the first circumstance makes you less likely to come out to people. And then these are the people who might feel more betrayed, like "you didn't trust me to come out to me." And then it's really hard to point to all the little what, literally are microaggressions later, where they're acting hurt now.
Chicory: 5:13
Yeah, it's sort of a consistency issue that if you trip a little wire here and trip a little wire there, trip a little wire here, there, everywhere. I'm sorry, I don't know why I did that... It sounded like the song. You know what I mean?
Zero: 5:29
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, Carry on.
Chicory: 5:31
It builds up. So if you start with a baseline of like a scale of 1 to 5 like a five scale of trust and you know, you go up one because you know you're a nerd But then you consistently make all of these small, detrimental jokes or assumptions or all of these other sort of word plays or things that, like maybe you think or a joke but actually are pretty serious. They add up. It's sort of like gymnastics. Where they ding points? I don't know if I'm doing a good job describing this feeling.
Zero: 6:11
I think that that's actually a pretty good. Like there's a lot of talk about microaggressions and the way they hurt people, right? People who have a lot of microaggressions against them might be snappier with people who do things that hurt them because they're not really mad at that person. They're mad at all the legacy stuff they had to go through throughout the day because if you go off on someone on the bus versus if you go off on someone in your house there is very different ramifications and like we're very concerned, and I think reasonably so, I don't want to make it sound like this is not a reasonable concern, particularly in some place like a Con, which is a very public venue. It's very easy to get concerned about being seen as a troublemaker and so once you had already called out for the bad accent thing, it then means that now that you're actually in your lane, you don't want to inhabit as much of that lane because now it's like, Well, everybody's here to have a good time. I cannot stop living the existence I live but at the same time I don't want to be the person constantly dragging the table down because that's a lot of burden for me to carry, and I am also here to have a good time and I think often people forget that. Like if I'm hanging out on Twitter,
Chicory: 7:33
yeah,
Zero: 7:34
and I make a comment about how people are causing problems. I didn't necessarily come to Twitter to pick a fight with a bunch of people about how people are causing problems. But other people are like, Oh my gosh, why do you just hate everything? Are making this weird assumption that everything you do is based around the fact of everything that is done to you and our identities as humans really shouldn't be wrapped up in this idea that we are what is done to us, even though that is often how things are portrayed in reality. We cannot escape things that are done to us often, particularly after the fact. But other people often want to use those to define your existence.
Chicory: 8:18
That took a left turn
Zero: 8:19
that took a left turn. One should be the name of the episode, and two could have been the name of this podcast.
Chicory: 8:25
[Laughs]
Zero: 8:25
I'm sad we didn't.
Chicory: 8:25
[Continues Laughing]
Zero: 8:25
Anyway, So how do you bring up these ideas that directly affect you in a way that doesn't seem like you're just doing this for attention? Because the other people at that table don't know which of these are, like, really important to you and don't know which of them are like you just standing up for the right thing because it's the right thing, which is weird to say. I mean, it's unfortunately a thing we have to put up with in society. But if you stand up for the right thing because not being a racist jerk is always the wrong choice?
Chicory: 9:09
No, being a racist jerk is always the wrong choice, right?
Zero: 9:13
Oh, yes. Being a racist jerk is always the wrong choice. Not being a racist jerk is apparently a difficult choice. Thank you. So, yeah, in that situation, you've set yourself up for the actual lane that you can argue from from personal experience to be more difficult by virtue of you being a good person earlier in the conversation, and I don't think those people were trying to trap you. But you've ended up in a very weird trap that our society sets up where now it is harder for you to defend your identity because you were being an ally for someone else's identity even when they weren't present. And so I think that a big thing in this situation to remember is that, well, one the statement that do good things because they're the right things to do, particularly if you're more of the good type, which I think you definitely fall into more of like the DND good alignment. At least than I do, but in general, do stuff that is good because it's the right thing to do. But when it comes down to really defending the lane you are in, don't be afraid to enter that lane as well, because you, if you feel up to it, should be fighting in that lane. You're much more equipped to do it. You're being a good ally by helping other people fight. You're defending yourself and people like you by fighting for your own things. Both are good, and one would hope that by demonstrating what being an ally actually is, you would be gaining more allies at tables like this, particularly if you're at a home game or a table where you're going to run into these people over and over again and they can remember that you're not just fighting for yourself. You're willing to fight for other people,
Chicory: 11:07
I think, sort of to like explain myself and my choice, and this is not necessarily a good thing. I think it's just like a weird, almost like a trope that it's easier to protect other people than it is to protect yourself sometimes. So if it's something that you have on the line. Because I'm white. I don't know if you can tell, but defending somebody who is not white. It's like it's no skin off my nose, right? People being a racist doesn't affect me, or it does. But that's the kind of a different thing. We can unpack that statement later.
Zero: 11:45
We will.
Chicory: 11:49
But you kind of get what I'm saying, right?
Zero: 11:51
Yeah
Chicory: 11:51
It's not my lane and it's not... It's like I'm not risking that much other than the goodwill of like my friends. But screw them for being racist anyways. Whereas if it's something that's like my identity, part of myself, and they're like, Well we're just gonna write that off anyways and be fucking jerks about it, then it hurts me more. Does that make sense?
Zero: 12:15
Yeah, you're describing risk management. To a certain extent, I do want to say it is very clearly not the easy choice to not be racist / bigot. A lot of people actively don't make that choice, so I'll start out by saying, Don't necessarily sell yourself short for being willing to make that choice. The follow up is that means you're using minorities as a shield for your own emotions, and you're not willing to risk your own emotions.
Chicory: 12:40
I know I knew that was coming, and I knew it's not good. Look, okay,
Zero: 12:45
because at the end of the day, essentially what you're saying not sub consciously or unconsciously, but at least in a less conscious manner, you have an acknowledgement. That if this person really doubled down on being insulting to a group you don't personally identify with, you can cut and run and just continue to have a good time and brush that moment aside. It will not personally affect you in the long term, which I think is what you were trying to say. At the end of the day. If you're on your way home, somebody's racism towards people who are not like you or bigotry or other things is very unlikely to affect you, and you know that that's like something you have internalized. That's in some ways what privilege is. Privilege is a lot of things, but you have the privilege that if somebody is super racist against brown skinned people, it's not likely to actually affect your life on a regular basis like it's going to come up because it's part of American society. But you're not going to get pulled over for driving while black. It's not a thing you have to be the slightest bit concerned about.
Chicory: 13:48
No
Zero: 13:48
Which means, yeah, it is actually easier for you then to stand up and say in a circumstance that's not you driving, people shouldn't be arrested for driving while black because at the end of the day it cost you very little to say that That's not the same as saying it's easy, But it does in fact cost you very little to say that
Chicory: 14:08
This is one of the Dan Harmonisms that I think that he kind of nailed. It should be really easy to not be a piece of shit. Just do less things. Just do less things.
Zero: 14:23
I mean, to be fair, that's always been my premise. My entire premise on this podcast is don't spend time with people, cut people out of your life immediately, for being bad so I support this?
Chicory: 14:36
No, but I mean, like, I think his point well, and I'm translating this, my interpretation of it, the way that I try to exhibit this is being neutral to someone is less energy than like being polite to someone is less energy than being mean to someone is than to like believe that somebody is like, not human. You have to do so many mental gymnastics to say I think a lot of the things that racist people think. And if you just don't do that, it's a lot easier. And this is a left turn. Be ready. I'm pulling on the J brake, but it's like people that really don't want the Earth to be several billion years old. And so they make up all of these things to try to explain how evolution isn't a thing and how dinosaur bones are only a couple thousand years old because they only want the earth to be 6000 years old. It's so many mental gymnastics to make that happen.
Zero: 15:42
That was definitely a left turn.
Chicory: 15:44
I'm sorry, tangent.
Zero: 15:47
I think it actually illustrates your point pretty well. I think that what it is for a lot of folks, that's really important to keep in mind if you choose to converse with them, is that for them this is easier to cling to. It is more comfortable, and I encountered this a lot with people I deal with on a day to day basis. It's not that you're wrong. You're right. It is easier to follow the truth than a lie because a lie, you have to keep all of your facts straight, and the truth is relatively stable. Science is interesting because what we thought was real in science can change because science is designed to be challenged. But like once a consensus develops because it has been challenged so heavily, it's pretty static. The fact that space time is curved is not really a debate right now. It's a weird concept, but once you wrap your head around it, it's a thing that exists. You don't have to come up with new mental gymnastics to explain it. People already did those mental gymnastics, so you don't have to keep new information straight. You don't to integrate it into a framework of lies. You just have reality. That being said, once somebody has their reality, they get real uncomfortable if you challenge that reality, particularly when you challenge that reality with the truth, because it's very difficult for them to disprove the truth. And very few people like the truth. So most of the time, when two people are arguing about something, it's lies arguing with lies, and it's easy to just prove lies. So at the end of the conversation, you're like, I disproved all their points. Therefore, my point is correct, which is not true.
Chicory: 17:29
That's not always true. I think that's one of the cool things about science. And maybe one of the why science takes so long sometimes is that you can disprove a theory much easier. Science is not designed to prove theories. It's only designed to disprove theories.
Zero: 17:47
Yeah, it's true. That's probably the thing people get most confused about the word theory is that a theory is a question that science is asking, and then you throw experiments at it not to prove the theory, but to disconfirm the theory.
Chicory: 18:00
Basically, yeah,
Zero: 18:01
you have your equations and whatever you came up with, that kind of like set the theory in motion like the most popular one is the theory of evolution right where Darwin observes that all these birds of the same species but some of them are real weird and different. And then people are like, I wonder if living in different parts of these islands change these birds from the one bird that landed here and then people are like that sounds weird. How do we show people it's wrong? And then people just haven't for, like, 150 years. And so it's pretty much just people agree that that theory is true because we keep trying to disprove it. And it's like the evidence keeps pointing to this being right, not wrong. And so yeah, sure you can't prove it because it's science. Arguably, if you believe it's true, you're doing bad science.
Chicory: 18:48
I was gonna say, like maybe something having to do with how I don't want to talk about that. I was thinking about like how science has basically been used for evil a lot of times with like phrenology, and I don't want to fucking talk about for knowledge.
Zero: 19:04
Different episode. We should do that.
Zero: 19:05
We shoud do the pseudo science and eugenics and racist science episode and people I still believe in them. We're gonna have to see if we have any personal examples from life dealing with this or if people have letters they should send in letters about people you like and want to keep talking to you who believe in pseudo scientific explanations for ah, really racist ideas. And there are plenty still alive in the U. S. So I'll probably I could probably think if you just don't talk to this
Chicory: 19:35
grumpy noises
Zero: 19:36
related to sort of this discussion about creatures changing and traits being done as defense. I remember one of the concerns that you had about bringing this idea up is the idea that she would be accused of trans trending or we're trending or any of these things where oh, you're just and this hard. He was just so weird. It is difficult for me to articulate it. You're just pretending to be not says, because it is popular to be not says right now, which has, like so many problems, it's difficult to articulate. But it's definitely a thing that some people not only believe but will accuse others off.
spk_2: 20:20
I think at
Chicory: 20:21
least they have the concept of Trans versus Sis which is I found out at my work that not everybody even knows the word cysts in 2018
spk_2: 20:34
which I guess
Chicory: 20:35
maybe not everybody needs to
Zero: 20:37
its 2000 like
Chicory: 20:38
2019. I don't know what year it is. 2019.
Zero: 20:41
The longest decade following the longest deck.
Chicory: 20:46
Oh, oh, oh. Anyway, But you have one of my co workers. I didn't know the words, knew the word Trans. I had to define what a trans person is and how they're different from people and drug, which was a long and tortuous conversation.
Zero: 21:06
Man, I wish I could have been there. Just listen to you do that
spk_2: 21:09
conversation, I think would Oh, my gosh. I think what I came up with
Chicory: 21:14
was that, um Trans is who you are. And drag is a pastime.
Zero: 21:20
No, you know, we should probably do an episode at some point for convenient metaphors.
spk_2: 21:29
You know what I like? Something I had about the circle that work okay at work. And then
Chicory: 21:37
this coworker basically didn't believe in the concept of people being non binary. And I tried to use examples of people that are genetically intersex and how there are intersex pronouns and concepts and in other cultures. And this guy was just having none of it, just, you know, and it was rough.
Zero: 22:05
Yeah. I mean, we technically have an episode planned about those things. It does bring up a good thing here, though. Where and just I feel like it just makes that statement even weirder that you would be trans trending to be popular. But it's okay, because queer trending and trance trending isn't a thing. Right? And you are?
spk_2: 22:28
I'm not. I'm not going to
Zero: 22:29
say I agree with everything you just said. We can save that for later, and we'll let the viewers will let the listener decide. Email Chick ary.
spk_2: 22:37
No, you're in a lot of heat apostrophe r I'm said this is
Chicory: 22:41
the second strike of the episode. Okay, second straight.
Zero: 22:45
You also can't put an apostrophe and an email, but
Chicory: 22:48
we don't have that email. Are you gonna make that email? Oh,
spk_2: 22:51
no. I don't think it's important to note,
Zero: 22:53
particularly with what you say.
spk_2: 22:55
Uh, this episode I'm definitely
Chicory: 22:57
the dad, but also the least dad of the dads. In this episode, I want to say
Zero: 23:03
you're doing fun. I think it is good four people. I I will say that I don't know why we had no plans on any outline our discussion to talk about drag culture, but we should probably just add it to a
spk_2: 23:18
few. But I'm going to say for
Zero: 23:22
the sake of keeping this podcast relatively reasonable length and not diverting too badly, that I personally I think it is good for people to explore the spectrum of gender and sexuality and other spectrums that quote unquote deviate from the norm. I think it's good for people to explore those, and I think we are too hard on people who determined. I think that the problems for being asses hat white dude come more from the fact that a lot of says hat white dudes have put no time into examining what being a sissy that white dude actually means. And I don't think it is positive to the community. 200 people cool, examined their sexuality and examine their gender and discovered for lack of a better term that they were sees straight people. The LGBT community has a real problem with coming down on people who say they are bi curious. Also, who there's a problem by people being discounted among LG circles anyway. But that aside, like people who are bi curious of the discover they are straight, are not inherently bad. But they can certainly do bad things because they are people, not because they are exploring their sexuality. You should not treat other groups as a costume or as a means to an end. There's the stereotype of drunk people who make out with people of the same sex to entice people of the opposite sex. That is always bad. But that is bad because you were using not because you are challenging the spectrum of sexuality. And if you are pushing the bounds of sexuality and a genuine and honest way or gender or other things in our society, I think that that sort of self exploration is more healthy than not. But you have to be honest with yourself about it, and that's where the problems come in is that people are very bad at being honest with themselves, so most people go about this in a bad way. But the idea of immediately castigating someone because they are unsure about something is a problem in our society. and
spk_2: 25:59
I'm gonna
Chicory: 25:59
see no lies
spk_2: 26:02
detected. But but no lives,
Chicory: 26:07
detective, Like, to me, that scans. I guess my original original question that we've strayed from was more. I don't know if we even need to go back to, like what to do in that sort of situation. When you are surrounded by sis head dudes that are in their element when you're the only not sis head white dude at the table and sort of how to deal with that pressure. Because, at least in the nerd community, it's not the first time that that's happened to me where, like I can remember being told that because I before I had the words for being non binary, I thought of myself as a female, which is one of the nice things I think about labels is that I don't know. I have a lot of conversation or mental conversations with my one of my siblings that's like labels are bad and link, why would you need all of these labels? And to me, the good thing about labels is that then you have words to be able to express how you're feeling and like how you identify and what you like and all of these good things. So being ableto have the concept of being non binary is really great, because growing up in the Midwest, you only had two options. Basically,
Zero: 27:40
I think my favorite quote on that is actually from Amanda Palmer, who's like I've dated men. I've dated women. I believe in using labels to make conversations easier. So I'm okay with being called bisexual. I assume that that conversations with your brother?
Chicory: 27:54
No, my brother is the one who thought of me as being a female and was like, Well, you have to play a female character.
Zero: 28:03
Wow, You just You just threw him under the bus.
spk_2: 28:07
Look, he has grown a
Chicory: 28:09
long way, Okay? This was when he was, like, 15 and I was 13. And doing anything else was not Ah, concept. Okay, But today in today's world, in 2018 and 19 he is super understanding and supportive of me being non binary. And he's great. Okay, not
spk_2: 28:30
going to stand up. Okay, So
Chicory: 28:32
pretend that he wasn't an awful 15 year old.
Zero: 28:36
That is actually an excellent story of how a person can grow and change from time They are a teenage in time that they are adult. You might want to just if this comes up in a situation that's not odd. Cast. Give the clarifying information on timeline before you throw your brother under
spk_2: 28:54
the because because what's we're talking about? This thing that happened, it happened recently. Also, here's like my brother did what? Oh, but it was like 15 years ago, 17 years ago. I don't share that story,
Zero: 29:20
but, like context, this is something we can actually apply to Dad. Wrong folks listening when you were
spk_2: 29:27
having conversations. It is good to provide intellectual context to the story before you share the bad part of the story because
Zero: 29:39
otherwise people may get the hilariously wrong.
spk_2: 29:45
Yeah,
Chicory: 29:47
yeah, Okay. But now we're sorted, right? My brother's gone back to being a good person. Everybody's is on the same page.
spk_2: 29:54
His deafness. Here, brother, I was
Zero: 29:56
actually shocked when you told me the first part of your story because I was like, Wow, I actually thought he was a lot better than
spk_2: 30:04
that. So I was really surprised at how
Zero: 30:06
hard you were throwing him
spk_2: 30:07
under the bus these days. People. Then it's like I've known you do
Zero: 30:10
for a long time. So I'm like, Okay, so I could totally see him saying that when he was 15. The story? All eight. Since what's context was
spk_2: 30:17
provided, It was like it was like a roller coaster. Okay, It was definitely a rolling. You're just wildly up to the top and then pushed everything off that it was ups and downs, Ups and downs loop the loops. Where was I going with this? I have no idea. I'm sure. What's that? Were exciting, though, Um, where is it going with
Chicory: 30:41
it? Cheat. Remember, CI?
Zero: 30:43
You only had two options growing up in Nebraska. So you were discussing the value of labels as opposed to the classic Gen Xer idea of all labels Or bad. Why would you want to put labels on yourself? It only constricts.
Chicory: 30:54
Yeah. So, back to the past, where we were at the convention and I didn't want it out myself because of all of this fucking history. And I don't know white guys. Check yourself.
spk_2: 31:07
Well, I think a good way to
Zero: 31:08
soft sort of. It's not really soft outing yourself, but like soft introduced, this concept that's becoming more popular is Yeah, just roll in. And when you're in a situation, encourage people to ask for pronounce and remember, it's not preferred pronouns. It's what are your pro now
Chicory: 31:27
choose. I think you called me on that last recording,
Zero: 31:30
right, which nobody heard. We could've seamlessly blended that. Now, when you encourage people to tell you what they're pronouns are just at the top one you've already added yourself is a troublemaker nailing it. But second of all, you can gauge their reaction and related to one of the Twitter threats I saw running earlier today with somebody saying, Yeah, I go to conferences where they put out buttons and stickers that are like my pronouns Are he have? Has she heard hers the years there? Sometimes I know that at trans pride up here they had the Z series, which is different. I'm glad that they were trying for stuff beyond a but Zizi Tzar. So the e z i e z e r. And then write your own in. So my pronouns are this, And at the end of the she hers ones, the buttons would run out and there'd be a huge stack of the he him his buttons, so you would do better. But beyond that general good life advice, you can roll into a space and just ask folks, Hey, I want to respect your pronouns. What are they? And just go around the table real quick as soon as you show up. That gives you kind of a soft way to out yourself, although it is still risky. But if you feel safe enough to out yourself, you should out yourself quickly because it will give people time to adjust the time you're spending. And it's
spk_2: 33:04
sort of
Zero: 33:05
lets you be a better ally, because by already exposing yourself, you can stand up for other people. The table. Now the unfortunate, unfortunate, fortunate side effect of that is, maybe people wouldn't have used racist voices around you if they knew that you were already a Social Justice dragoon. But that's probably better for your quality of life, but worse for the world is a hole because you can't call them out on it. But it also has that risk of you might lose friends, but
spk_2: 33:35
I mean, or do you
Zero: 33:36
prefer, like being with people who know who you are, potentially losing friends?
spk_2: 33:41
It is a risk either way, I don't
Zero: 33:42
know honestly, The last time we talked about it, I sufficiently covered. But not everybody could be out. Being out is actually a risk, particularly at someplace like strategic on, where you literally don't know who you're at the table with and what effect they could have on their lives. Rather what effect they could have on your life. So and a public situation. It is really difficult, and you do have to be able to read the room, and I think that that's where it comes in. The pronoun thing is really useful, cause it plants, scenes you, and that also loves you to make a choice, particularly you started. You can then control it and just have this mode where you go around the table. And if you meet someone who's real huffy about their pronouns. One. You know that person's a problem,
Chicory: 34:29
not a troublemaker. A problem.
Zero: 34:31
Yeah, well, I don't think being a troublemaker is a problem, necessarily. So, no, you know, to keep an eye on him,
Chicory: 34:37
it's like, Yeah, it's
spk_2: 34:38
also a smaller risk at such a con
Chicory: 34:41
in some ways, because it is pretty public. There's always some risk involved in any social situation. Usually people are pretty nice. I don't know, because I didn't out myself. I guess I can't really speak to that.
Zero: 34:57
We're not necessarily asking to speak on that. We are asking you to
spk_2: 35:00
speculate. Yes, the only question that I didn't have
Chicory: 35:05
to bring it up in like a recurring game in the recurring game that you and I are in. It's no problem because everybody has kind of already known that I'm non binary. But, uh,
Zero: 35:18
to be fair in that recurring game that you and I are in, I'm the main game master and I enforce that for N. Peces will get really mad at you if you screw up there. Pronounce, too.
Chicory: 35:27
Yeah, true story, true story. But in some of them, from historic ALS and stuff like that, or with my family that I'm not out to, it's just I don't know. I'm not looking forward to having that conversation. And I might just hide it for, like, another another another year until everybody's dead and I never have to out myself to anyone, because fucking hell,
Zero: 35:52
yeah, that's called being in the closet. It's a time honored tradition for LGBT.
spk_2: 35:56
Well, it's not great. Not a comfortable place to be, um, show title. I thought it was Well, that's a left turn.
Zero: 36:08
Yeah, but I like it's not great. It's not a comfortable place to be.
Chicory: 36:13
I don't know what about for like, ah, recurring games like or if you all have, like a were you make characters separately and then you bring them in. Is it a thing where you think that the g m. You should have, like, a moment of introducing all of the characters? Or is it one of those things that you want? Oh, like cinema veritas and be like, Well, will it come up in game? Did that
spk_2: 36:39
question makes sense?
Zero: 36:41
Okay, yeah, I'm marveling at your use of Latin momentarily. So first of all, no. Make character separately and bring them to the table. Everybody should make characters together,
Chicory: 36:51
but sometimes world adults and we don't have time.
Zero: 36:55
No, that's just what the first. If you have time to get up for a game session, your first game sessions character. It does not do the whole group here at roll adults. Sometimes a person can't make it to the character creation session, but, like most of your table should be there for character creation. Don't have the whole group make character separately, Didn't get together for the game. Just give up your first game for clarification. And if you do that, then you can introduce those concepts there. So the question of being in the closet once you accept that you're not going to out yourself immediately, they've become sort of like you said. When do I out myself? Or do I just wait for all these jokers to die off?
Chicory: 37:37
Oh man,
Zero: 37:38
which we establish what will probably be the episode after this. Now, some of us want to live forever, and some don't, so you might not be able to get all of them to die off. God damn it, if you think that the group will act differently if you out yourself are you and just to clarify you are not required to be of service to anyone unless you choose to service is a thing that is given, not owed. But are you doing a disservice to yourself in your community and arguably the other people I waiting to out yourself. You may give your family or your friends or your recurring group a easier path toe acclamation to these ideas by outing yourself. And that is, as we established earlier in episode, a tremendous risk to you that also could cause tremendous good and you have to balance that risk is like, is that you don't owe service to a community because you're part of a community, particularly a community you didn't choose to be born here. This is actually one of the things that has a corollary. Just because a person is bored white with privilege, they don't owe White this a defense. You can, in fact, be born privileged and white and still be like, Wow, this is really an advantage for me, but it sucks that it's happening. You do not owe service and community to anyone. Service and community is given to people on a case by case basis. Some people just happen to make that case. Nope, you're the same group is me. I've given it geo, and that's fine for them. You don't have to do that, but if you're willing to put yourself on the line in a very personal way, you could be starting those ripples that branch out of on your family who currently feel no pressure to think about these concepts and you coming out. Even if they reject you, will cause that pressure to exist on them know better how they initially react.
spk_2: 39:32
I guess it's true.
Chicory: 39:33
The communities that I'm actively a part of or have been actively a part of are not usually What I think of as
spk_2: 39:44
surface kind of community is
Chicory: 39:46
I'm thinking of like a church community. You know what I mean? Like a Greenpeace community where everybody kind of gets together and, like volunteers, like a volunteer community. Okay, those kinds of things, the communities that I've been part of and impart of, like actively, I guess our lake sports communities and so toe help each other is part of the reason that you're there. You can't do that thing without other people. You can't climb by yourself. You can if you're Alex Honnold. But even he sorts out the route with a partner and, like needs a lot of help to frequent. People don't really think about that, but he definitely does. And to do like camping trips to do rock climbing, you at least need one other person consistently. And that's the beginning of a community. The other one was the fencing community of youth that I was part of. We
Zero: 40:44
were part of Yeah, that is how we met.
Chicory: 40:46
That is how we met. And that's look again. You can't fence by yourself.
Zero: 40:51
Well, you cared what you did to get arrested.
spk_2: 40:53
Well, I mean, like, if you're gonna do like,
Chicory: 40:54
a fight club scenario, but even that's like what you're gonna just do like a 1,000,000 toe touches like it's hard to poke yourself in like the thing it doesn't work as well.
Zero: 41:03
I appreciate the fact that I'm making jokes running around randomly stabbing people in the street and you immediately go to the FAA fencer. Yeah, but like in the
spk_2: 41:10
tollbooth, because every fencers unite. No, I think the difference
Chicory: 41:18
is that you were thinking about going and basically forcibly fencing other people with them, unsuspecting it. And I was thinking like a fight club scenario where if you start out the fight club and you're punching yourself, but with a fencing spoilers book
Zero: 41:32
toilets for a 20 year old movie that nobody who watches understands anyone
Chicory: 41:36
can't hit yourself with it. you. Can you almost. I mean, like you can. But what are you going to do? You can't really?
Zero: 41:42
If you flick your wrist really hard
spk_2: 41:44
yet you could hit your opposite wrist.
Zero: 41:46
Well, that would be easy, but I was thinking you could probably get your upper thigh, right?
Chicory: 41:50
Yeah. You could
spk_2: 41:51
leave a hell of a well, but my point is that you're not like the same thing. You
Chicory: 41:56
could like prey by yourself. You can exist as a gay person by yourself. You can exist as a non binary person without being part of the LGBTQ community.
Zero: 42:07
Well, yes, I think distinction. You're not making that. We should probably make you are describing communities you could choose to be a part of. I don't know that people actually choose things like their sexuality and their gender so much as they discover them.
Chicory: 42:23
I guess that's true.
Zero: 42:24
Or, you know, you don't choose your race either. You're a part of that community. Whether you like it or not, You do not, actually. Oh, that community, anything I think that you should probably like, look at what you can do to help the community's You're a part of even if you did not choose to be a part of them. But, you know, sometimes you're just born into a situation that it's just sucks all the time. And then I would say Just try not to hurt the communities.
Chicory: 42:51
Do you think that this distinction that I missed just now of communities that you choose versus communities that you're born into or that you realize you're a part of later in life, like being non binary or being gay, I guess, Or maybe being Trans, some people find out that their translator in life
Zero: 43:12
anybody can discover things about themselves at any very odd.
Chicory: 43:17
I'm trying to drive carefully here, Okay,
spk_2: 43:19
that's trying to drive
Zero: 43:20
carefully. The night is dark and
Chicory: 43:23
will not hear here it's full of smog, Okay? But that for a lot of CIS white people, especially assis white men, but also sis white females that because in many ways being white is like the default in commercials or in film or ah, lot of other ways in like the over our king cultural zeitgeist. That is why they see especially like the term LGBT community evoked a community that you choose to be a part of,
Zero: 44:03
uh well, one, I have an internal question is whiteness zeitgeist? That itself is a really interesting question that I'm gonna interrogate on my own off podcast. I'm gonna take that off line and think about that really hard.
spk_2: 44:19
I don't know. It might be like
Chicory: 44:21
she trying to use, like, a fancy word and not fully knowing.
spk_2: 44:26
That's fine. I'm actually gonna think about
Zero: 44:28
whether used it correctly. I don't have that answer right now for the answer you do have. I think you have to a certain extent, hit the nail on the head when you are seen as the default and don't have to make choices. Everything that that is not you seems like a choice. And not only does it seem like a choice, it seems like a bad choice. This is actually the point of that question. Were talking about earlier, right, the trance training and we're trending and stuff. People are so worried about being angry at somebody for wanting to be unique, that they're missing the point that sometimes challenging the status quo
spk_2: 45:02
is, in fact, a highly
Zero: 45:03
positive thing. It's not always you brought a fight club and sort of the moral of Fight Club is that, you know conformity is bad, but also trying to be two different, but also be bad extremes of risky Paracelsus. You know, the dose makes the poison.
spk_2: 45:18
I thought the point
Chicory: 45:19
of Fight Club was that they weren't like, happy with the status quo. But then when they made their own sort of community, they just copied the status quo over again.
Zero: 45:30
We do not have time to get into the point of Fight Club, but that's the shortest version is Fight Club is a movie about how people are very bad at interrogating their own motives and intentions. That is the shortest way I can break down by club. It is not what most people get out of the film, but that film is about people who are very bad itself. Analysis and project that onto the world around. I would love to actually do a podcast about Fight club, but that's not really the point of Dad. You're wrong.
Chicory: 46:05
So some up zero
Zero: 46:07
like the whole
spk_2: 46:07
episode? Yeah. I mean, we got time. We're a little over
Chicory: 46:11
an hour. We gotta go. Okay? Encourage other people to always ask for pronouns. Check
spk_2: 46:17
Are you going over the outline? Yes, on the air, always trying to sum up. But then you called me on it because the outline is the sum. I apologize
Zero: 46:29
for ruining your attempt to look
spk_2: 46:31
like you had a really good memory by just using the outline our producer wrote. Oh, wait, no, I don't
Zero: 46:41
apologize the slightest bit for called not the tiniest about not now iota of a
spk_2: 46:49
policy fair. But And this is good for
Chicory: 46:53
all paper writing times when you just need to, like, fill out that last page of the last paragraph or so, just sum up and go over your outline and it'll make you sound really good. It does. It works. I got a lot of days on papers in college
Zero: 47:10
that is also the technical format for writing an essay. Well,
spk_2: 47:14
then, it's good advice, isn't
Chicory: 47:15
it? Zero.
Zero: 47:16
It is good advice, but it's not original dancing. Do advice, but pay attention to your teachers. You tell you how to write an essay,
spk_2: 47:23
Listen, or you could write your teachers off
Chicory: 47:27
and then find someone that tells you to do it in a slightly different way to dio.
Zero: 47:31
I mean, this is the Internet. That was more likely.
spk_2: 47:34
It's like
Chicory: 47:34
OK, OK, different tangent. But Jordan
spk_2: 47:38
Place, you're going is my constant bucket.
Chicory: 47:42
Drin Peterson. I ate this clown.
spk_2: 47:44
All he did was taking all of the things
Chicory: 47:47
that your mom and grandma told you to dio and then repackage it being said by like a tall white guy A
Zero: 47:54
little
Chicory: 47:55
I don't know. I think so. He seems tall when he's standing on stage alone.
Zero: 48:00
Last time we talked about coming out stories and how the idea of a coming out story where the character arc of film is a person imagining all the worst scenarios and things that could go wrong with coming out. And then the light climax of the film is them coming out. And being pretty much accepted would be like the heartwarming Thanksgiving film that this country needs.
Chicory: 48:26
Oh my God, I would love that. It would give everybody well, here's how not to react. And here's how to react and you get music cues so you know which one is the good one?
Zero: 48:38
That's a good idea. The problem, as you talked about, is the risk you're taking Israel. It's not abstract, which I do want to call you out again. That is the exact same attitude that people who are like, Well, there's no Asian people here we're having. You should consider the people you're standing up for. Azriel. It shouldn't necessarily. You're not taking a personal risk, but you are still helping defend people who are at risk.
Chicory: 49:01
That's true bad CI
Zero: 49:03
When you imagine those scenarios of what could go wrong, what are you really worried about? Could go wrong if you come out to your family at Thanksgiving. That's a topic we talked about a lot in this country. You don't want to be the trouble maker at the table and how that allows old racist people to control the conversation. Everyone else might want to have it. Thanksgiving if you're okay with talking about them cause understand, this is very personal. What are the scenarios you're imagining? And what is your ideal scenario when you come out? Like if this movie was being made about you but are a couple of the horror stories and then when we hit the climax and you came out to your family like what would you want them to say?
Chicory: 49:41
Okay, so daydreaming about all of the bad things. My parents, who are just a mix of trying to be understanding. But like my dad, wouldn't watch Ellen for a long time. Sorry, Dad, I'm throwing, you know,
Zero: 49:57
that's your problem. But although now you're right. Good job. Ellen, also prickly, advanced the cause of dads.
spk_2: 50:07
Now he's okay with her,
Chicory: 50:08
but he's still
Zero: 50:09
well. She's also friends with George W. Bush.
Chicory: 50:11
Yeah, so which goes on to say that, like rich people have more in common with each other than they do with almost anyone else? Sorry, but also eat the rich. So yeah, so I just see, like a lot of having to explain it to my parents and like, what is it? And then basically being told, Well, that's not even a thing. And, well, we're just you're always be our little girl and all of these kinds of things.
Zero: 50:37
It's bizarre to me that you are concerned about being called a troublemaker. It seems like the last thing you are concerned about 90%
spk_2: 50:44
of I think it's just my
Chicory: 50:48
cover story. For all of the like, nitty gritty,
Zero: 50:51
I feel like it's something you found is safe to lean on, but it's not at all, actually,
Chicory: 50:56
yeah, I would say it's like a a veil or a mask. It's a filter
spk_2: 51:01
because I'm
Chicory: 51:02
definitely down to start some trouble.
Zero: 51:04
Yeah, you are, man your dad. I totally believe that story.
Chicory: 51:09
Felix wouldn't watch Roseanne, too,
Zero: 51:12
instead of unpacking that and how hard the nineties were for you. Are you just basically concerned your family will stop talking to you? Is that your concern is being essentially disowned by your family?
spk_2: 51:24
No, I think weirdly
Chicory: 51:27
my dad. It's mostly getting to really knock down, drag out fight about being a disappointment to
spk_2: 51:35
my family.
Chicory: 51:36
But I think the fear is just to be told over and over and over again. No, you're wrong. That doesn't exist. And you're wrong about yourself.
Zero: 51:48
I mean, that's a very reasonable fear. This is something I've talked about with other people in the past. It is a massive convenience to be able to shelve things which are uncomfortable and say, perhaps I will deal with this later, and it is not a thing everyone gets, and there's nothing wrong with using that, particularly if you feel you need to use it. But when you choose that half to say this would be hard because it would be constant. You are making a choice many people don't gets, and that choice itself is one that is very easy to gloss over because you can hide it behind various things you like. But it should also be fuel for doing the good work that you believe needs to be done. Is that memory that you could avoid talking about this situation? You can avoid this label with the people you're close to for as long as you need, arguably for as long as you want to, cause you don't strictly need to do it except your peace of mind. And what is peace of mind? Worth is its own question. But if your biggest fear is being questioned, you are doing better than a lot of people and what you are giving up, because it would be uncomfortable for you. I want to acknowledge that and not try to downplay it. It would be uncomfortable. What you're giving up is the opportunity to teach because every time you got questioned and told, this is not true, that's your chance to say yes it is. I'm right here, and this is very uncomfortable. Just call out your family for calling you a liar is they are making it personal. If that is your biggest fear than your fears of being questioned and not in the way most people would say that does come down to the question of where do you want to do? Good in the world is you have limited energy are the ripples you could cause they're bigger than ripples. You could cause somewhere else. And I can't make that decision for you. And that is sort of the point of our podcast. So I'm glad that we could wrap it up with this thought. Where do you want to spend your energy causing ripples in the pond? How big do you want those ripples to be? Maybe strategic on a pleasure to have bigger ripples, right? Because those people go to other tables. And if you can spread stuff, there is strategic on a bigger reach than your family, who maybe are a bunch of necklaces like the family in excess Chainsaw massacre, like maybe it's just not worth mother face coming out is non binary because their entire family lives in the mansions of Texas, and it won't reach anybody. There's not a lot of ripples there. They eat everyone who shows up. It's really rough. Maybe you being willing to have this conversation strategic Khan will cause a ton of ripples to spring. You'll throw a big rock in the pond and then more water droplets of fly in the air and caused more smaller ripples and every person to make those decisions for themselves. And we try to provide tools to help. That that is something people will need to think about is how do you apply your energy to cast those ripples in a productive way? All of us.
Chicory: 55:03
The thing that I thought we were gonna be more focusing on is then what are the words that would be best used to actually come out because, like what I would want to dio and what I'm now thinking about doing is basically just making a T shirt and like spray painting it with I'm non binary. I used a them they're pronouns because Alec anybody likes having this conversation. It's like a good conversation to have, but it's one of those things that
spk_2: 55:33
you could just
Chicory: 55:33
accept it, That'd be great.
spk_2: 55:36
I think the thing that we've
Zero: 55:37
covered that you should do in this conversation is make people understand these air, not preferred pronouns. Okay, well, come from my point of view, once you shoot that down as being like, terrible will work together to find a better
spk_2: 55:48
point. You know, I think you could just
Zero: 55:51
tell people. Hey, it's not my fault. Your vocabulary and imagination are limited. Reality is bigger than your dreams. The stuff you make up is not all of reality. And it's not my fault that you can't accept that and that your active not accepting that means you are not accepting me. This is what is true about me. And I am telling you this as a courtesy because I care about you and the conversation starts there. You're up front with them. And if they clap back and are like that's not riel, then
spk_2: 56:20
that's their problem for telling you
Zero: 56:21
what your reality is. People don't get to do that,
Chicory: 56:24
I guess. Like the question I'm looking for is like, how do you bring this up? You're setting down the turkey and you're carving the turkey or like when you answer the door and you're like, Hi, ma, I haven't seen you in a long time. By the way, I'm they. Then there's
Zero: 56:36
I mean, you could do that, I think. Do you not have conversations with your family?
Chicory: 56:41
Uh, we have conversations about other fifth. It's like Cousin A finally had their child and cousin be got into the school. And nephew A is like working on this project in college. Those
spk_2: 57:01
are pretty
Chicory: 57:01
normal Thanksgiving conversations.
Zero: 57:04
I think the last thing is giving all my family talk about was pollen. So I know that our producer and my uncle gotten in arguments about adopting Children. So you know what? Family is different.
Chicory: 57:16
My family because of my dad. Basically, we have disavowed people talking about politics because my dad will just yell over people.
spk_2: 57:26
Yeah, don't let that happen. I guess I would
Zero: 57:29
say it sounds like everybody knows this will happen, and the conversations you're going tohave later are. Why are you blaming me? Because that has a bad behavior. Every year we need to stop enabling. That's bad behavior, because shouting out other people's arguments is the bad behavior you existing as a person in the world is not that day. As for where you bring it up, work it very casually into the conversation. Like, Did you hear about that new K pop and BTS? Also
spk_2: 57:58
a non
Zero: 57:59
binary? But joking aside, it really can come up any time it's reasonable, or even like when you're sending out the Thanksgiving invites. Remember the pronoun conversation. Get it out of the way in the email beforehand and give those people a chance not to show up. And then, if they show up in one to cause trouble, your lineage will have revealed itself and you can ascend
spk_2: 58:19
T. O. Yes, that's definitely my goal. Okay, I think I would
Chicory: 58:26
rather go with the slip it in casual conversation.
Zero: 58:31
Your dad shouldn't get to control the conversation simply because he is in council train.
spk_2: 58:35
Think I looked up
Chicory: 58:36
that word from last time in Calc Trent, and I think it means something slightly different,
Zero: 58:41
probably stubbornly resistant to authority or control
Chicory: 58:45
practice refractory, recalcitrant mark this stubborn resistance to authority, but my dad wants to be this authority. I think that's what his resentment is is that everyone else is recalcitrant, and that doesn't allow him to like be the authority,
Zero: 59:02
fight, fight power. But on some rage against the machine, Some grandsons, some public enemy, in reference to our earlier conversation, started as early as possible. It's your family. You can actually just tell them at the door. Hey, I'm using the pronouns. They Then there's I'll help you out if you forget frame, it is you being polite if you're genuinely worried and you don't want to offend your family, say, here is what I am doing. And if you make a mistake, I am happy to help you out while you are here. Be the one who puts out the olive branch first. These are my pronouns. They're not my preferred pronounce. These are my pronouns. If you don't use them, it will hurt my feelings. But if you use them incorrectly and you're not like making a big deal of using them wrong on purpose, I will help you out, because I understand that this is sort of set. You
spk_2: 59:49
don't have to do
Zero: 59:50
that for everybody, but you can do that for your family. If your dad really wants to be the authority, maybe you could even approach him first and say Hey, I would like your help making this happen. I
spk_2: 1:0:01
think I'd rather
Chicory: 1:0:01
start with my brother and sister in law and work out from there.
Zero: 1:0:06
Okay, First of all, find the allies in your family. But beyond that don't go into it being aggressive. I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with going into it being aggressive. But in these specific instance you're talking about, I think that you can go into it saying this is me. I understand. You may have difficulty with this. I am willing to help you through that difficulty. Do that if you can. Publicly even don't necessarily do it privately. If you don't believe that will work. And then they will feel that pressure again. The social pressure as other people do it. And as they see you being gracious, graciousness has and always will be a weapon that people will use to keep other people in line. There is no reason you cannot also use that weapon. Anybody who knows the Southerner knows the graciousness could be a weapon.
Chicory: 1:1:03
Aren't have failed that being born in the South does not use graciousness as
Zero: 1:1:09
a weapon. Well, your dad is a guy. Mmm. guys don't have to do that. South Tool, the wind. The South guys could just shoot people.
spk_2: 1:1:18
Uh, I wish you were wrong,
Chicory: 1:1:20
but that's a really good summation.
Zero: 1:1:23
I've met people from the south and your family. To be fair, you're mom's graciousness is really interesting and not Southern graciousness. She
Chicory: 1:1:32
has Midwestern graciousness, which is a different graciousness
spk_2: 1:1:35
altogether us. Which is a different kind of
Zero: 1:1:38
Crixus. That's how I would do it. Don't be afraid to make it sort of a public announcement. Keep the group sort of s maybe the way you described it brother and sister in law first and then branch out and sort of include more family members. Various things will work out different families, but make it feel like one. You're bringing them or into you, and two you want to help them. But be firm that this is not changing about you. You will help them reach the point that is not harmful to you anymore. But this is not an option. And this is not a thing they get to decide is not true. You do need to stick to those points.
Chicory: 1:2:23
Copy. Wrapping up. Get these things out of the way as soon as you can.
Zero: 1:2:29
Yes, as soon as you can. Being the operative word. Which is not necessarily the same as immediately.
spk_2: 1:2:34
I didn't say
Chicory: 1:2:34
immediately tonight.
Zero: 1:2:35
No, but I'm not always clarifying for you. You ready? We'll have not only fair, fair. She loves you, Dad. But you're wrong. Sometime,
Chicory: 1:2:45
most of the time, I mean Oh, my God, I Coke. A special ending. Bit I call my dad and ask him about what is the difference between, like, normal nuclear bombs and dirty nuclear bombs? And he laid it all out. He
spk_2: 1:2:57
was really right, Dad,
Chicory: 1:3:00
you're right about nuclear bones. Good job.
Zero: 1:3:04
I mean, the dirty bomb just sprays more nuclear material over an area and can be done with a standard
spk_2: 1:3:09
you. But she had all the
Chicory: 1:3:10
number zero and he had like, why does it do that? And like, how does the how is the reaction? Slightly different. All of that kind of stuff.
Zero: 1:3:17
Oh, that's cool.
spk_2: 1:3:19
It is super
Zero: 1:3:20
cool. I love you, Dad, but
spk_2: 1:3:22
sometimes you're right about I love you, Dad. You're You're not right about everything. You're really wrong on a lot of things.
spk_3: 1:3:32
But nukes a gun thank you for joining us for this odd re recorded at the sort of dead wrong I'm Whitney, editor and producer music was created by zero. You can find transcripts but show notes at Dodger Rock that buzz sprout dot com. You can also connect with us by email at Dad drug at gmail dot com or on Twitter at Daijiro. That's D E a d Why o U R e w r O Ed Jeep Please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your podcast platform would love to hear what you think. If you have a died, you're wrong situation of your own that you would like us to discuss. Please send us an email with the story and your questions. Thanks again, and we hope you will join us in January for the next episode.
On this very special episode of Dad You're Wrong. We are re-recording a part two we already did, because part of the episode was lost and that meant that we didn't have a full episode. But I think we should replace episodes that are lost anyway. And this one was a part two. So we're back for an episode no one else heard, but we're kind of working off the notes from what we do still have. So this episode might be a little weird.
Chicory: 0:29
It will be a little bit weird, but that's okay. It'll be okay.
Zero: 0:32
We are nothing if not a little weird.
Chicory: 0:34
Something like that. Anyway, Zero, help me. I need a crutch.
Zero: 0:41
Let's do the intro, while you think.
Chicory: 0:43
Oh Shit. You're right. Buy time, buy time. Welcome to Dad You're Wrong. Regularly ruminating on rhetorical reasoning for regaling irrational relations with the ramifications of reality.
Zero: 0:54
I'm zero.
Chicory: 0:56
I'm Chicory. People call me Chi.
Chicory: 0:59
So to recap, we were playing D&D proper and the GM did a terrible Asian racist accent and I tried to call him on it and he was like, "There aren't any Asians present" or something like that. And then later in the game, he threw in a non-player character as part of a gang of people that we needed to fight and he was being funny. And he made like a "SHE" joke where the NPC was suddenly a girl and then he said, or they or whatever. And then the other player character was trying to be nice and say like, No, it's like dehumanizing someone to call them a "they" or an "it" And I was like,
Chicory: 1:44
No, some people use the pronoun they. They them theirs. And I kind of made the flash decision not to say "I'm one of those people" because of already having seen the reaction to being called out with not understanding that being racist is a bad thing, even when there are no other people around. So I just didn't wanna start that shit, and that was kind of where we left off from the last time we where this time we're gonna talk about why I didn't want to do that and the ramifications of outing yourself and why sometimes it can feel [uncomfortable noise] suspense and icky and not good to do that.
Zero: 2:31
Yeah, that's a pretty decent sort of summary of where we ended up and where we're going with in this episode as a follow up. So something I want to ask, "Do you think you would have felt comfortable with they/them conversation if you hadn't already had the "Yes, Racism is bad, even if there are none of the people you're being racist towards around" conversation?
Chicory: 2:53
Hmmmmmmmm
Chicory: 2:55
You know, maybe like these guys didn't seem like that bad of guys.
Zero: 3:03
So then, in terms of outing yourself, your concern was not specifically with outing yourself to these people until it was clear that these people, whatever they may have thought about themselves and their reputations in communities as tolerant individuals, they were not displaying that tolerance actively in a situation where they felt they didn't have to.
Chicory: 3:29
Yeah
Zero: 3:31
So I think just starting there is perhaps something that we can talk about in a general discussion beyond the actual like... Like, we should talk about what you say to people after they've already dinged your trust a bit. Because that's sort of what we're talking about is they had already shown themselves to be not entirely trustworthy. And then they did a thing where maybe you could have started a conversation there. I think this is what Dad You're Wrong hinges around is this idea that there are some people you CAN talk to and you feel like you can talk to and One your determination for those people are is a lot more lenient than mine, and that's why you're gonna have more of these stories. But you don't think that they became bad people just because they made that one joke. But it's then scared off you from having perhaps a conversation. No one can see it so they don't know that you're not from any part of Asia.
Chicory: 4:31
No.
Zero: 4:31
So, like making a joke about the R L sounds in Chinese and Japanese language. It offends you because you're not a terrible person, but it doesn't have the personal impact on you. Well, I mean, outside of some of your relatives. But in terms of personal impact, the second circumstance has a lot more personal impact on you than the first. But the first circumstance makes you less likely to come out to people. And then these are the people who might feel more betrayed, like "you didn't trust me to come out to me." And then it's really hard to point to all the little what, literally are microaggressions later, where they're acting hurt now.
Chicory: 5:13
Yeah, it's sort of a consistency issue that if you trip a little wire here and trip a little wire there, trip a little wire here, there, everywhere. I'm sorry, I don't know why I did that... It sounded like the song. You know what I mean?
Zero: 5:29
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, Carry on.
Chicory: 5:31
It builds up. So if you start with a baseline of like a scale of 1 to 5 like a five scale of trust and you know, you go up one because you know you're a nerd But then you consistently make all of these small, detrimental jokes or assumptions or all of these other sort of word plays or things that, like maybe you think or a joke but actually are pretty serious. They add up. It's sort of like gymnastics. Where they ding points? I don't know if I'm doing a good job describing this feeling.
Zero: 6:11
I think that that's actually a pretty good. Like there's a lot of talk about microaggressions and the way they hurt people, right? People who have a lot of microaggressions against them might be snappier with people who do things that hurt them because they're not really mad at that person. They're mad at all the legacy stuff they had to go through throughout the day because if you go off on someone on the bus versus if you go off on someone in your house there is very different ramifications and like we're very concerned, and I think reasonably so, I don't want to make it sound like this is not a reasonable concern, particularly in some place like a Con, which is a very public venue. It's very easy to get concerned about being seen as a troublemaker and so once you had already called out for the bad accent thing, it then means that now that you're actually in your lane, you don't want to inhabit as much of that lane because now it's like, Well, everybody's here to have a good time. I cannot stop living the existence I live but at the same time I don't want to be the person constantly dragging the table down because that's a lot of burden for me to carry, and I am also here to have a good time and I think often people forget that. Like if I'm hanging out on Twitter,
Chicory: 7:33
yeah,
Zero: 7:34
and I make a comment about how people are causing problems. I didn't necessarily come to Twitter to pick a fight with a bunch of people about how people are causing problems. But other people are like, Oh my gosh, why do you just hate everything? Are making this weird assumption that everything you do is based around the fact of everything that is done to you and our identities as humans really shouldn't be wrapped up in this idea that we are what is done to us, even though that is often how things are portrayed in reality. We cannot escape things that are done to us often, particularly after the fact. But other people often want to use those to define your existence.
Chicory: 8:18
That took a left turn
Zero: 8:19
that took a left turn. One should be the name of the episode, and two could have been the name of this podcast.
Chicory: 8:25
[Laughs]
Zero: 8:25
I'm sad we didn't.
Chicory: 8:25
[Continues Laughing]
Zero: 8:25
Anyway, So how do you bring up these ideas that directly affect you in a way that doesn't seem like you're just doing this for attention? Because the other people at that table don't know which of these are, like, really important to you and don't know which of them are like you just standing up for the right thing because it's the right thing, which is weird to say. I mean, it's unfortunately a thing we have to put up with in society. But if you stand up for the right thing because not being a racist jerk is always the wrong choice?
Chicory: 9:09
No, being a racist jerk is always the wrong choice, right?
Zero: 9:13
Oh, yes. Being a racist jerk is always the wrong choice. Not being a racist jerk is apparently a difficult choice. Thank you. So, yeah, in that situation, you've set yourself up for the actual lane that you can argue from from personal experience to be more difficult by virtue of you being a good person earlier in the conversation, and I don't think those people were trying to trap you. But you've ended up in a very weird trap that our society sets up where now it is harder for you to defend your identity because you were being an ally for someone else's identity even when they weren't present. And so I think that a big thing in this situation to remember is that, well, one the statement that do good things because they're the right things to do, particularly if you're more of the good type, which I think you definitely fall into more of like the DND good alignment. At least than I do, but in general, do stuff that is good because it's the right thing to do. But when it comes down to really defending the lane you are in, don't be afraid to enter that lane as well, because you, if you feel up to it, should be fighting in that lane. You're much more equipped to do it. You're being a good ally by helping other people fight. You're defending yourself and people like you by fighting for your own things. Both are good, and one would hope that by demonstrating what being an ally actually is, you would be gaining more allies at tables like this, particularly if you're at a home game or a table where you're going to run into these people over and over again and they can remember that you're not just fighting for yourself. You're willing to fight for other people,
Chicory: 11:07
I think, sort of to like explain myself and my choice, and this is not necessarily a good thing. I think it's just like a weird, almost like a trope that it's easier to protect other people than it is to protect yourself sometimes. So if it's something that you have on the line. Because I'm white. I don't know if you can tell, but defending somebody who is not white. It's like it's no skin off my nose, right? People being a racist doesn't affect me, or it does. But that's the kind of a different thing. We can unpack that statement later.
Zero: 11:45
We will.
Chicory: 11:49
But you kind of get what I'm saying, right?
Zero: 11:51
Yeah
Chicory: 11:51
It's not my lane and it's not... It's like I'm not risking that much other than the goodwill of like my friends. But screw them for being racist anyways. Whereas if it's something that's like my identity, part of myself, and they're like, Well we're just gonna write that off anyways and be fucking jerks about it, then it hurts me more. Does that make sense?
Zero: 12:15
Yeah, you're describing risk management. To a certain extent, I do want to say it is very clearly not the easy choice to not be racist / bigot. A lot of people actively don't make that choice, so I'll start out by saying, Don't necessarily sell yourself short for being willing to make that choice. The follow up is that means you're using minorities as a shield for your own emotions, and you're not willing to risk your own emotions.
Chicory: 12:40
I know I knew that was coming, and I knew it's not good. Look, okay,
Zero: 12:45
because at the end of the day, essentially what you're saying not sub consciously or unconsciously, but at least in a less conscious manner, you have an acknowledgement. That if this person really doubled down on being insulting to a group you don't personally identify with, you can cut and run and just continue to have a good time and brush that moment aside. It will not personally affect you in the long term, which I think is what you were trying to say. At the end of the day. If you're on your way home, somebody's racism towards people who are not like you or bigotry or other things is very unlikely to affect you, and you know that that's like something you have internalized. That's in some ways what privilege is. Privilege is a lot of things, but you have the privilege that if somebody is super racist against brown skinned people, it's not likely to actually affect your life on a regular basis like it's going to come up because it's part of American society. But you're not going to get pulled over for driving while black. It's not a thing you have to be the slightest bit concerned about.
Chicory: 13:48
No
Zero: 13:48
Which means, yeah, it is actually easier for you then to stand up and say in a circumstance that's not you driving, people shouldn't be arrested for driving while black because at the end of the day it cost you very little to say that That's not the same as saying it's easy, But it does in fact cost you very little to say that
Chicory: 14:08
This is one of the Dan Harmonisms that I think that he kind of nailed. It should be really easy to not be a piece of shit. Just do less things. Just do less things.
Zero: 14:23
I mean, to be fair, that's always been my premise. My entire premise on this podcast is don't spend time with people, cut people out of your life immediately, for being bad so I support this?
Chicory: 14:36
No, but I mean, like, I think his point well, and I'm translating this, my interpretation of it, the way that I try to exhibit this is being neutral to someone is less energy than like being polite to someone is less energy than being mean to someone is than to like believe that somebody is like, not human. You have to do so many mental gymnastics to say I think a lot of the things that racist people think. And if you just don't do that, it's a lot easier. And this is a left turn. Be ready. I'm pulling on the J brake, but it's like people that really don't want the Earth to be several billion years old. And so they make up all of these things to try to explain how evolution isn't a thing and how dinosaur bones are only a couple thousand years old because they only want the earth to be 6000 years old. It's so many mental gymnastics to make that happen.
Zero: 15:42
That was definitely a left turn.
Chicory: 15:44
I'm sorry, tangent.
Zero: 15:47
I think it actually illustrates your point pretty well. I think that what it is for a lot of folks, that's really important to keep in mind if you choose to converse with them, is that for them this is easier to cling to. It is more comfortable, and I encountered this a lot with people I deal with on a day to day basis. It's not that you're wrong. You're right. It is easier to follow the truth than a lie because a lie, you have to keep all of your facts straight, and the truth is relatively stable. Science is interesting because what we thought was real in science can change because science is designed to be challenged. But like once a consensus develops because it has been challenged so heavily, it's pretty static. The fact that space time is curved is not really a debate right now. It's a weird concept, but once you wrap your head around it, it's a thing that exists. You don't have to come up with new mental gymnastics to explain it. People already did those mental gymnastics, so you don't have to keep new information straight. You don't to integrate it into a framework of lies. You just have reality. That being said, once somebody has their reality, they get real uncomfortable if you challenge that reality, particularly when you challenge that reality with the truth, because it's very difficult for them to disprove the truth. And very few people like the truth. So most of the time, when two people are arguing about something, it's lies arguing with lies, and it's easy to just prove lies. So at the end of the conversation, you're like, I disproved all their points. Therefore, my point is correct, which is not true.
Chicory: 17:29
That's not always true. I think that's one of the cool things about science. And maybe one of the why science takes so long sometimes is that you can disprove a theory much easier. Science is not designed to prove theories. It's only designed to disprove theories.
Zero: 17:47
Yeah, it's true. That's probably the thing people get most confused about the word theory is that a theory is a question that science is asking, and then you throw experiments at it not to prove the theory, but to disconfirm the theory.
Chicory: 18:00
Basically, yeah,
Zero: 18:01
you have your equations and whatever you came up with, that kind of like set the theory in motion like the most popular one is the theory of evolution right where Darwin observes that all these birds of the same species but some of them are real weird and different. And then people are like, I wonder if living in different parts of these islands change these birds from the one bird that landed here and then people are like that sounds weird. How do we show people it's wrong? And then people just haven't for, like, 150 years. And so it's pretty much just people agree that that theory is true because we keep trying to disprove it. And it's like the evidence keeps pointing to this being right, not wrong. And so yeah, sure you can't prove it because it's science. Arguably, if you believe it's true, you're doing bad science.
Chicory: 18:48
I was gonna say, like maybe something having to do with how I don't want to talk about that. I was thinking about like how science has basically been used for evil a lot of times with like phrenology, and I don't want to fucking talk about for knowledge.
Zero: 19:04
Different episode. We should do that.
Zero: 19:05
We shoud do the pseudo science and eugenics and racist science episode and people I still believe in them. We're gonna have to see if we have any personal examples from life dealing with this or if people have letters they should send in letters about people you like and want to keep talking to you who believe in pseudo scientific explanations for ah, really racist ideas. And there are plenty still alive in the U. S. So I'll probably I could probably think if you just don't talk to this
Chicory: 19:35
grumpy noises
Zero: 19:36
related to sort of this discussion about creatures changing and traits being done as defense. I remember one of the concerns that you had about bringing this idea up is the idea that she would be accused of trans trending or we're trending or any of these things where oh, you're just and this hard. He was just so weird. It is difficult for me to articulate it. You're just pretending to be not says, because it is popular to be not says right now, which has, like so many problems, it's difficult to articulate. But it's definitely a thing that some people not only believe but will accuse others off.
spk_2: 20:20
I think at
Chicory: 20:21
least they have the concept of Trans versus Sis which is I found out at my work that not everybody even knows the word cysts in 2018
spk_2: 20:34
which I guess
Chicory: 20:35
maybe not everybody needs to
Zero: 20:37
its 2000 like
Chicory: 20:38
2019. I don't know what year it is. 2019.
Zero: 20:41
The longest decade following the longest deck.
Chicory: 20:46
Oh, oh, oh. Anyway, But you have one of my co workers. I didn't know the words, knew the word Trans. I had to define what a trans person is and how they're different from people and drug, which was a long and tortuous conversation.
Zero: 21:06
Man, I wish I could have been there. Just listen to you do that
spk_2: 21:09
conversation, I think would Oh, my gosh. I think what I came up with
Chicory: 21:14
was that, um Trans is who you are. And drag is a pastime.
Zero: 21:20
No, you know, we should probably do an episode at some point for convenient metaphors.
spk_2: 21:29
You know what I like? Something I had about the circle that work okay at work. And then
Chicory: 21:37
this coworker basically didn't believe in the concept of people being non binary. And I tried to use examples of people that are genetically intersex and how there are intersex pronouns and concepts and in other cultures. And this guy was just having none of it, just, you know, and it was rough.
Zero: 22:05
Yeah. I mean, we technically have an episode planned about those things. It does bring up a good thing here, though. Where and just I feel like it just makes that statement even weirder that you would be trans trending to be popular. But it's okay, because queer trending and trance trending isn't a thing. Right? And you are?
spk_2: 22:28
I'm not. I'm not going to
Zero: 22:29
say I agree with everything you just said. We can save that for later, and we'll let the viewers will let the listener decide. Email Chick ary.
spk_2: 22:37
No, you're in a lot of heat apostrophe r I'm said this is
Chicory: 22:41
the second strike of the episode. Okay, second straight.
Zero: 22:45
You also can't put an apostrophe and an email, but
Chicory: 22:48
we don't have that email. Are you gonna make that email? Oh,
spk_2: 22:51
no. I don't think it's important to note,
Zero: 22:53
particularly with what you say.
spk_2: 22:55
Uh, this episode I'm definitely
Chicory: 22:57
the dad, but also the least dad of the dads. In this episode, I want to say
Zero: 23:03
you're doing fun. I think it is good four people. I I will say that I don't know why we had no plans on any outline our discussion to talk about drag culture, but we should probably just add it to a
spk_2: 23:18
few. But I'm going to say for
Zero: 23:22
the sake of keeping this podcast relatively reasonable length and not diverting too badly, that I personally I think it is good for people to explore the spectrum of gender and sexuality and other spectrums that quote unquote deviate from the norm. I think it's good for people to explore those, and I think we are too hard on people who determined. I think that the problems for being asses hat white dude come more from the fact that a lot of says hat white dudes have put no time into examining what being a sissy that white dude actually means. And I don't think it is positive to the community. 200 people cool, examined their sexuality and examine their gender and discovered for lack of a better term that they were sees straight people. The LGBT community has a real problem with coming down on people who say they are bi curious. Also, who there's a problem by people being discounted among LG circles anyway. But that aside, like people who are bi curious of the discover they are straight, are not inherently bad. But they can certainly do bad things because they are people, not because they are exploring their sexuality. You should not treat other groups as a costume or as a means to an end. There's the stereotype of drunk people who make out with people of the same sex to entice people of the opposite sex. That is always bad. But that is bad because you were using not because you are challenging the spectrum of sexuality. And if you are pushing the bounds of sexuality and a genuine and honest way or gender or other things in our society, I think that that sort of self exploration is more healthy than not. But you have to be honest with yourself about it, and that's where the problems come in is that people are very bad at being honest with themselves, so most people go about this in a bad way. But the idea of immediately castigating someone because they are unsure about something is a problem in our society. and
spk_2: 25:59
I'm gonna
Chicory: 25:59
see no lies
spk_2: 26:02
detected. But but no lives,
Chicory: 26:07
detective, Like, to me, that scans. I guess my original original question that we've strayed from was more. I don't know if we even need to go back to, like what to do in that sort of situation. When you are surrounded by sis head dudes that are in their element when you're the only not sis head white dude at the table and sort of how to deal with that pressure. Because, at least in the nerd community, it's not the first time that that's happened to me where, like I can remember being told that because I before I had the words for being non binary, I thought of myself as a female, which is one of the nice things I think about labels is that I don't know. I have a lot of conversation or mental conversations with my one of my siblings that's like labels are bad and link, why would you need all of these labels? And to me, the good thing about labels is that then you have words to be able to express how you're feeling and like how you identify and what you like and all of these good things. So being ableto have the concept of being non binary is really great, because growing up in the Midwest, you only had two options. Basically,
Zero: 27:40
I think my favorite quote on that is actually from Amanda Palmer, who's like I've dated men. I've dated women. I believe in using labels to make conversations easier. So I'm okay with being called bisexual. I assume that that conversations with your brother?
Chicory: 27:54
No, my brother is the one who thought of me as being a female and was like, Well, you have to play a female character.
Zero: 28:03
Wow, You just You just threw him under the bus.
spk_2: 28:07
Look, he has grown a
Chicory: 28:09
long way, Okay? This was when he was, like, 15 and I was 13. And doing anything else was not Ah, concept. Okay, But today in today's world, in 2018 and 19 he is super understanding and supportive of me being non binary. And he's great. Okay, not
spk_2: 28:30
going to stand up. Okay, So
Chicory: 28:32
pretend that he wasn't an awful 15 year old.
Zero: 28:36
That is actually an excellent story of how a person can grow and change from time They are a teenage in time that they are adult. You might want to just if this comes up in a situation that's not odd. Cast. Give the clarifying information on timeline before you throw your brother under
spk_2: 28:54
the because because what's we're talking about? This thing that happened, it happened recently. Also, here's like my brother did what? Oh, but it was like 15 years ago, 17 years ago. I don't share that story,
Zero: 29:20
but, like context, this is something we can actually apply to Dad. Wrong folks listening when you were
spk_2: 29:27
having conversations. It is good to provide intellectual context to the story before you share the bad part of the story because
Zero: 29:39
otherwise people may get the hilariously wrong.
spk_2: 29:45
Yeah,
Chicory: 29:47
yeah, Okay. But now we're sorted, right? My brother's gone back to being a good person. Everybody's is on the same page.
spk_2: 29:54
His deafness. Here, brother, I was
Zero: 29:56
actually shocked when you told me the first part of your story because I was like, Wow, I actually thought he was a lot better than
spk_2: 30:04
that. So I was really surprised at how
Zero: 30:06
hard you were throwing him
spk_2: 30:07
under the bus these days. People. Then it's like I've known you do
Zero: 30:10
for a long time. So I'm like, Okay, so I could totally see him saying that when he was 15. The story? All eight. Since what's context was
spk_2: 30:17
provided, It was like it was like a roller coaster. Okay, It was definitely a rolling. You're just wildly up to the top and then pushed everything off that it was ups and downs, Ups and downs loop the loops. Where was I going with this? I have no idea. I'm sure. What's that? Were exciting, though, Um, where is it going with
Chicory: 30:41
it? Cheat. Remember, CI?
Zero: 30:43
You only had two options growing up in Nebraska. So you were discussing the value of labels as opposed to the classic Gen Xer idea of all labels Or bad. Why would you want to put labels on yourself? It only constricts.
Chicory: 30:54
Yeah. So, back to the past, where we were at the convention and I didn't want it out myself because of all of this fucking history. And I don't know white guys. Check yourself.
spk_2: 31:07
Well, I think a good way to
Zero: 31:08
soft sort of. It's not really soft outing yourself, but like soft introduced, this concept that's becoming more popular is Yeah, just roll in. And when you're in a situation, encourage people to ask for pronounce and remember, it's not preferred pronouns. It's what are your pro now
Chicory: 31:27
choose. I think you called me on that last recording,
Zero: 31:30
right, which nobody heard. We could've seamlessly blended that. Now, when you encourage people to tell you what they're pronouns are just at the top one you've already added yourself is a troublemaker nailing it. But second of all, you can gauge their reaction and related to one of the Twitter threats I saw running earlier today with somebody saying, Yeah, I go to conferences where they put out buttons and stickers that are like my pronouns Are he have? Has she heard hers the years there? Sometimes I know that at trans pride up here they had the Z series, which is different. I'm glad that they were trying for stuff beyond a but Zizi Tzar. So the e z i e z e r. And then write your own in. So my pronouns are this, And at the end of the she hers ones, the buttons would run out and there'd be a huge stack of the he him his buttons, so you would do better. But beyond that general good life advice, you can roll into a space and just ask folks, Hey, I want to respect your pronouns. What are they? And just go around the table real quick as soon as you show up. That gives you kind of a soft way to out yourself, although it is still risky. But if you feel safe enough to out yourself, you should out yourself quickly because it will give people time to adjust the time you're spending. And it's
spk_2: 33:04
sort of
Zero: 33:05
lets you be a better ally, because by already exposing yourself, you can stand up for other people. The table. Now the unfortunate, unfortunate, fortunate side effect of that is, maybe people wouldn't have used racist voices around you if they knew that you were already a Social Justice dragoon. But that's probably better for your quality of life, but worse for the world is a hole because you can't call them out on it. But it also has that risk of you might lose friends, but
spk_2: 33:35
I mean, or do you
Zero: 33:36
prefer, like being with people who know who you are, potentially losing friends?
spk_2: 33:41
It is a risk either way, I don't
Zero: 33:42
know honestly, The last time we talked about it, I sufficiently covered. But not everybody could be out. Being out is actually a risk, particularly at someplace like strategic on, where you literally don't know who you're at the table with and what effect they could have on their lives. Rather what effect they could have on your life. So and a public situation. It is really difficult, and you do have to be able to read the room, and I think that that's where it comes in. The pronoun thing is really useful, cause it plants, scenes you, and that also loves you to make a choice, particularly you started. You can then control it and just have this mode where you go around the table. And if you meet someone who's real huffy about their pronouns. One. You know that person's a problem,
Chicory: 34:29
not a troublemaker. A problem.
Zero: 34:31
Yeah, well, I don't think being a troublemaker is a problem, necessarily. So, no, you know, to keep an eye on him,
Chicory: 34:37
it's like, Yeah, it's
spk_2: 34:38
also a smaller risk at such a con
Chicory: 34:41
in some ways, because it is pretty public. There's always some risk involved in any social situation. Usually people are pretty nice. I don't know, because I didn't out myself. I guess I can't really speak to that.
Zero: 34:57
We're not necessarily asking to speak on that. We are asking you to
spk_2: 35:00
speculate. Yes, the only question that I didn't have
Chicory: 35:05
to bring it up in like a recurring game in the recurring game that you and I are in. It's no problem because everybody has kind of already known that I'm non binary. But, uh,
Zero: 35:18
to be fair in that recurring game that you and I are in, I'm the main game master and I enforce that for N. Peces will get really mad at you if you screw up there. Pronounce, too.
Chicory: 35:27
Yeah, true story, true story. But in some of them, from historic ALS and stuff like that, or with my family that I'm not out to, it's just I don't know. I'm not looking forward to having that conversation. And I might just hide it for, like, another another another year until everybody's dead and I never have to out myself to anyone, because fucking hell,
Zero: 35:52
yeah, that's called being in the closet. It's a time honored tradition for LGBT.
spk_2: 35:56
Well, it's not great. Not a comfortable place to be, um, show title. I thought it was Well, that's a left turn.
Zero: 36:08
Yeah, but I like it's not great. It's not a comfortable place to be.
Chicory: 36:13
I don't know what about for like, ah, recurring games like or if you all have, like a were you make characters separately and then you bring them in. Is it a thing where you think that the g m. You should have, like, a moment of introducing all of the characters? Or is it one of those things that you want? Oh, like cinema veritas and be like, Well, will it come up in game? Did that
spk_2: 36:39
question makes sense?
Zero: 36:41
Okay, yeah, I'm marveling at your use of Latin momentarily. So first of all, no. Make character separately and bring them to the table. Everybody should make characters together,
Chicory: 36:51
but sometimes world adults and we don't have time.
Zero: 36:55
No, that's just what the first. If you have time to get up for a game session, your first game sessions character. It does not do the whole group here at roll adults. Sometimes a person can't make it to the character creation session, but, like most of your table should be there for character creation. Don't have the whole group make character separately, Didn't get together for the game. Just give up your first game for clarification. And if you do that, then you can introduce those concepts there. So the question of being in the closet once you accept that you're not going to out yourself immediately, they've become sort of like you said. When do I out myself? Or do I just wait for all these jokers to die off?
Chicory: 37:37
Oh man,
Zero: 37:38
which we establish what will probably be the episode after this. Now, some of us want to live forever, and some don't, so you might not be able to get all of them to die off. God damn it, if you think that the group will act differently if you out yourself are you and just to clarify you are not required to be of service to anyone unless you choose to service is a thing that is given, not owed. But are you doing a disservice to yourself in your community and arguably the other people I waiting to out yourself. You may give your family or your friends or your recurring group a easier path toe acclamation to these ideas by outing yourself. And that is, as we established earlier in episode, a tremendous risk to you that also could cause tremendous good and you have to balance that risk is like, is that you don't owe service to a community because you're part of a community, particularly a community you didn't choose to be born here. This is actually one of the things that has a corollary. Just because a person is bored white with privilege, they don't owe White this a defense. You can, in fact, be born privileged and white and still be like, Wow, this is really an advantage for me, but it sucks that it's happening. You do not owe service and community to anyone. Service and community is given to people on a case by case basis. Some people just happen to make that case. Nope, you're the same group is me. I've given it geo, and that's fine for them. You don't have to do that, but if you're willing to put yourself on the line in a very personal way, you could be starting those ripples that branch out of on your family who currently feel no pressure to think about these concepts and you coming out. Even if they reject you, will cause that pressure to exist on them know better how they initially react.
spk_2: 39:32
I guess it's true.
Chicory: 39:33
The communities that I'm actively a part of or have been actively a part of are not usually What I think of as
spk_2: 39:44
surface kind of community is
Chicory: 39:46
I'm thinking of like a church community. You know what I mean? Like a Greenpeace community where everybody kind of gets together and, like volunteers, like a volunteer community. Okay, those kinds of things, the communities that I've been part of and impart of, like actively, I guess our lake sports communities and so toe help each other is part of the reason that you're there. You can't do that thing without other people. You can't climb by yourself. You can if you're Alex Honnold. But even he sorts out the route with a partner and, like needs a lot of help to frequent. People don't really think about that, but he definitely does. And to do like camping trips to do rock climbing, you at least need one other person consistently. And that's the beginning of a community. The other one was the fencing community of youth that I was part of. We
Zero: 40:44
were part of Yeah, that is how we met.
Chicory: 40:46
That is how we met. And that's look again. You can't fence by yourself.
Zero: 40:51
Well, you cared what you did to get arrested.
spk_2: 40:53
Well, I mean, like, if you're gonna do like,
Chicory: 40:54
a fight club scenario, but even that's like what you're gonna just do like a 1,000,000 toe touches like it's hard to poke yourself in like the thing it doesn't work as well.
Zero: 41:03
I appreciate the fact that I'm making jokes running around randomly stabbing people in the street and you immediately go to the FAA fencer. Yeah, but like in the
spk_2: 41:10
tollbooth, because every fencers unite. No, I think the difference
Chicory: 41:18
is that you were thinking about going and basically forcibly fencing other people with them, unsuspecting it. And I was thinking like a fight club scenario where if you start out the fight club and you're punching yourself, but with a fencing spoilers book
Zero: 41:32
toilets for a 20 year old movie that nobody who watches understands anyone
Chicory: 41:36
can't hit yourself with it. you. Can you almost. I mean, like you can. But what are you going to do? You can't really?
Zero: 41:42
If you flick your wrist really hard
spk_2: 41:44
yet you could hit your opposite wrist.
Zero: 41:46
Well, that would be easy, but I was thinking you could probably get your upper thigh, right?
Chicory: 41:50
Yeah. You could
spk_2: 41:51
leave a hell of a well, but my point is that you're not like the same thing. You
Chicory: 41:56
could like prey by yourself. You can exist as a gay person by yourself. You can exist as a non binary person without being part of the LGBTQ community.
Zero: 42:07
Well, yes, I think distinction. You're not making that. We should probably make you are describing communities you could choose to be a part of. I don't know that people actually choose things like their sexuality and their gender so much as they discover them.
Chicory: 42:23
I guess that's true.
Zero: 42:24
Or, you know, you don't choose your race either. You're a part of that community. Whether you like it or not, You do not, actually. Oh, that community, anything I think that you should probably like, look at what you can do to help the community's You're a part of even if you did not choose to be a part of them. But, you know, sometimes you're just born into a situation that it's just sucks all the time. And then I would say Just try not to hurt the communities.
Chicory: 42:51
Do you think that this distinction that I missed just now of communities that you choose versus communities that you're born into or that you realize you're a part of later in life, like being non binary or being gay, I guess, Or maybe being Trans, some people find out that their translator in life
Zero: 43:12
anybody can discover things about themselves at any very odd.
Chicory: 43:17
I'm trying to drive carefully here, Okay,
spk_2: 43:19
that's trying to drive
Zero: 43:20
carefully. The night is dark and
Chicory: 43:23
will not hear here it's full of smog, Okay? But that for a lot of CIS white people, especially assis white men, but also sis white females that because in many ways being white is like the default in commercials or in film or ah, lot of other ways in like the over our king cultural zeitgeist. That is why they see especially like the term LGBT community evoked a community that you choose to be a part of,
Zero: 44:03
uh well, one, I have an internal question is whiteness zeitgeist? That itself is a really interesting question that I'm gonna interrogate on my own off podcast. I'm gonna take that off line and think about that really hard.
spk_2: 44:19
I don't know. It might be like
Chicory: 44:21
she trying to use, like, a fancy word and not fully knowing.
spk_2: 44:26
That's fine. I'm actually gonna think about
Zero: 44:28
whether used it correctly. I don't have that answer right now for the answer you do have. I think you have to a certain extent, hit the nail on the head when you are seen as the default and don't have to make choices. Everything that that is not you seems like a choice. And not only does it seem like a choice, it seems like a bad choice. This is actually the point of that question. Were talking about earlier, right, the trance training and we're trending and stuff. People are so worried about being angry at somebody for wanting to be unique, that they're missing the point that sometimes challenging the status quo
spk_2: 45:02
is, in fact, a highly
Zero: 45:03
positive thing. It's not always you brought a fight club and sort of the moral of Fight Club is that, you know conformity is bad, but also trying to be two different, but also be bad extremes of risky Paracelsus. You know, the dose makes the poison.
spk_2: 45:18
I thought the point
Chicory: 45:19
of Fight Club was that they weren't like, happy with the status quo. But then when they made their own sort of community, they just copied the status quo over again.
Zero: 45:30
We do not have time to get into the point of Fight Club, but that's the shortest version is Fight Club is a movie about how people are very bad at interrogating their own motives and intentions. That is the shortest way I can break down by club. It is not what most people get out of the film, but that film is about people who are very bad itself. Analysis and project that onto the world around. I would love to actually do a podcast about Fight club, but that's not really the point of Dad. You're wrong.
Chicory: 46:05
So some up zero
Zero: 46:07
like the whole
spk_2: 46:07
episode? Yeah. I mean, we got time. We're a little over
Chicory: 46:11
an hour. We gotta go. Okay? Encourage other people to always ask for pronouns. Check
spk_2: 46:17
Are you going over the outline? Yes, on the air, always trying to sum up. But then you called me on it because the outline is the sum. I apologize
Zero: 46:29
for ruining your attempt to look
spk_2: 46:31
like you had a really good memory by just using the outline our producer wrote. Oh, wait, no, I don't
Zero: 46:41
apologize the slightest bit for called not the tiniest about not now iota of a
spk_2: 46:49
policy fair. But And this is good for
Chicory: 46:53
all paper writing times when you just need to, like, fill out that last page of the last paragraph or so, just sum up and go over your outline and it'll make you sound really good. It does. It works. I got a lot of days on papers in college
Zero: 47:10
that is also the technical format for writing an essay. Well,
spk_2: 47:14
then, it's good advice, isn't
Chicory: 47:15
it? Zero.
Zero: 47:16
It is good advice, but it's not original dancing. Do advice, but pay attention to your teachers. You tell you how to write an essay,
spk_2: 47:23
Listen, or you could write your teachers off
Chicory: 47:27
and then find someone that tells you to do it in a slightly different way to dio.
Zero: 47:31
I mean, this is the Internet. That was more likely.
spk_2: 47:34
It's like
Chicory: 47:34
OK, OK, different tangent. But Jordan
spk_2: 47:38
Place, you're going is my constant bucket.
Chicory: 47:42
Drin Peterson. I ate this clown.
spk_2: 47:44
All he did was taking all of the things
Chicory: 47:47
that your mom and grandma told you to dio and then repackage it being said by like a tall white guy A
Zero: 47:54
little
Chicory: 47:55
I don't know. I think so. He seems tall when he's standing on stage alone.
Zero: 48:00
Last time we talked about coming out stories and how the idea of a coming out story where the character arc of film is a person imagining all the worst scenarios and things that could go wrong with coming out. And then the light climax of the film is them coming out. And being pretty much accepted would be like the heartwarming Thanksgiving film that this country needs.
Chicory: 48:26
Oh my God, I would love that. It would give everybody well, here's how not to react. And here's how to react and you get music cues so you know which one is the good one?
Zero: 48:38
That's a good idea. The problem, as you talked about, is the risk you're taking Israel. It's not abstract, which I do want to call you out again. That is the exact same attitude that people who are like, Well, there's no Asian people here we're having. You should consider the people you're standing up for. Azriel. It shouldn't necessarily. You're not taking a personal risk, but you are still helping defend people who are at risk.
Chicory: 49:01
That's true bad CI
Zero: 49:03
When you imagine those scenarios of what could go wrong, what are you really worried about? Could go wrong if you come out to your family at Thanksgiving. That's a topic we talked about a lot in this country. You don't want to be the trouble maker at the table and how that allows old racist people to control the conversation. Everyone else might want to have it. Thanksgiving if you're okay with talking about them cause understand, this is very personal. What are the scenarios you're imagining? And what is your ideal scenario when you come out? Like if this movie was being made about you but are a couple of the horror stories and then when we hit the climax and you came out to your family like what would you want them to say?
Chicory: 49:41
Okay, so daydreaming about all of the bad things. My parents, who are just a mix of trying to be understanding. But like my dad, wouldn't watch Ellen for a long time. Sorry, Dad, I'm throwing, you know,
Zero: 49:57
that's your problem. But although now you're right. Good job. Ellen, also prickly, advanced the cause of dads.
spk_2: 50:07
Now he's okay with her,
Chicory: 50:08
but he's still
Zero: 50:09
well. She's also friends with George W. Bush.
Chicory: 50:11
Yeah, so which goes on to say that, like rich people have more in common with each other than they do with almost anyone else? Sorry, but also eat the rich. So yeah, so I just see, like a lot of having to explain it to my parents and like, what is it? And then basically being told, Well, that's not even a thing. And, well, we're just you're always be our little girl and all of these kinds of things.
Zero: 50:37
It's bizarre to me that you are concerned about being called a troublemaker. It seems like the last thing you are concerned about 90%
spk_2: 50:44
of I think it's just my
Chicory: 50:48
cover story. For all of the like, nitty gritty,
Zero: 50:51
I feel like it's something you found is safe to lean on, but it's not at all, actually,
Chicory: 50:56
yeah, I would say it's like a a veil or a mask. It's a filter
spk_2: 51:01
because I'm
Chicory: 51:02
definitely down to start some trouble.
Zero: 51:04
Yeah, you are, man your dad. I totally believe that story.
Chicory: 51:09
Felix wouldn't watch Roseanne, too,
Zero: 51:12
instead of unpacking that and how hard the nineties were for you. Are you just basically concerned your family will stop talking to you? Is that your concern is being essentially disowned by your family?
spk_2: 51:24
No, I think weirdly
Chicory: 51:27
my dad. It's mostly getting to really knock down, drag out fight about being a disappointment to
spk_2: 51:35
my family.
Chicory: 51:36
But I think the fear is just to be told over and over and over again. No, you're wrong. That doesn't exist. And you're wrong about yourself.
Zero: 51:48
I mean, that's a very reasonable fear. This is something I've talked about with other people in the past. It is a massive convenience to be able to shelve things which are uncomfortable and say, perhaps I will deal with this later, and it is not a thing everyone gets, and there's nothing wrong with using that, particularly if you feel you need to use it. But when you choose that half to say this would be hard because it would be constant. You are making a choice many people don't gets, and that choice itself is one that is very easy to gloss over because you can hide it behind various things you like. But it should also be fuel for doing the good work that you believe needs to be done. Is that memory that you could avoid talking about this situation? You can avoid this label with the people you're close to for as long as you need, arguably for as long as you want to, cause you don't strictly need to do it except your peace of mind. And what is peace of mind? Worth is its own question. But if your biggest fear is being questioned, you are doing better than a lot of people and what you are giving up, because it would be uncomfortable for you. I want to acknowledge that and not try to downplay it. It would be uncomfortable. What you're giving up is the opportunity to teach because every time you got questioned and told, this is not true, that's your chance to say yes it is. I'm right here, and this is very uncomfortable. Just call out your family for calling you a liar is they are making it personal. If that is your biggest fear than your fears of being questioned and not in the way most people would say that does come down to the question of where do you want to do? Good in the world is you have limited energy are the ripples you could cause they're bigger than ripples. You could cause somewhere else. And I can't make that decision for you. And that is sort of the point of our podcast. So I'm glad that we could wrap it up with this thought. Where do you want to spend your energy causing ripples in the pond? How big do you want those ripples to be? Maybe strategic on a pleasure to have bigger ripples, right? Because those people go to other tables. And if you can spread stuff, there is strategic on a bigger reach than your family, who maybe are a bunch of necklaces like the family in excess Chainsaw massacre, like maybe it's just not worth mother face coming out is non binary because their entire family lives in the mansions of Texas, and it won't reach anybody. There's not a lot of ripples there. They eat everyone who shows up. It's really rough. Maybe you being willing to have this conversation strategic Khan will cause a ton of ripples to spring. You'll throw a big rock in the pond and then more water droplets of fly in the air and caused more smaller ripples and every person to make those decisions for themselves. And we try to provide tools to help. That that is something people will need to think about is how do you apply your energy to cast those ripples in a productive way? All of us.
Chicory: 55:03
The thing that I thought we were gonna be more focusing on is then what are the words that would be best used to actually come out because, like what I would want to dio and what I'm now thinking about doing is basically just making a T shirt and like spray painting it with I'm non binary. I used a them they're pronouns because Alec anybody likes having this conversation. It's like a good conversation to have, but it's one of those things that
spk_2: 55:33
you could just
Chicory: 55:33
accept it, That'd be great.
spk_2: 55:36
I think the thing that we've
Zero: 55:37
covered that you should do in this conversation is make people understand these air, not preferred pronouns. Okay, well, come from my point of view, once you shoot that down as being like, terrible will work together to find a better
spk_2: 55:48
point. You know, I think you could just
Zero: 55:51
tell people. Hey, it's not my fault. Your vocabulary and imagination are limited. Reality is bigger than your dreams. The stuff you make up is not all of reality. And it's not my fault that you can't accept that and that your active not accepting that means you are not accepting me. This is what is true about me. And I am telling you this as a courtesy because I care about you and the conversation starts there. You're up front with them. And if they clap back and are like that's not riel, then
spk_2: 56:20
that's their problem for telling you
Zero: 56:21
what your reality is. People don't get to do that,
Chicory: 56:24
I guess. Like the question I'm looking for is like, how do you bring this up? You're setting down the turkey and you're carving the turkey or like when you answer the door and you're like, Hi, ma, I haven't seen you in a long time. By the way, I'm they. Then there's
Zero: 56:36
I mean, you could do that, I think. Do you not have conversations with your family?
Chicory: 56:41
Uh, we have conversations about other fifth. It's like Cousin A finally had their child and cousin be got into the school. And nephew A is like working on this project in college. Those
spk_2: 57:01
are pretty
Chicory: 57:01
normal Thanksgiving conversations.
Zero: 57:04
I think the last thing is giving all my family talk about was pollen. So I know that our producer and my uncle gotten in arguments about adopting Children. So you know what? Family is different.
Chicory: 57:16
My family because of my dad. Basically, we have disavowed people talking about politics because my dad will just yell over people.
spk_2: 57:26
Yeah, don't let that happen. I guess I would
Zero: 57:29
say it sounds like everybody knows this will happen, and the conversations you're going tohave later are. Why are you blaming me? Because that has a bad behavior. Every year we need to stop enabling. That's bad behavior, because shouting out other people's arguments is the bad behavior you existing as a person in the world is not that day. As for where you bring it up, work it very casually into the conversation. Like, Did you hear about that new K pop and BTS? Also
spk_2: 57:58
a non
Zero: 57:59
binary? But joking aside, it really can come up any time it's reasonable, or even like when you're sending out the Thanksgiving invites. Remember the pronoun conversation. Get it out of the way in the email beforehand and give those people a chance not to show up. And then, if they show up in one to cause trouble, your lineage will have revealed itself and you can ascend
spk_2: 58:19
T. O. Yes, that's definitely my goal. Okay, I think I would
Chicory: 58:26
rather go with the slip it in casual conversation.
Zero: 58:31
Your dad shouldn't get to control the conversation simply because he is in council train.
spk_2: 58:35
Think I looked up
Chicory: 58:36
that word from last time in Calc Trent, and I think it means something slightly different,
Zero: 58:41
probably stubbornly resistant to authority or control
Chicory: 58:45
practice refractory, recalcitrant mark this stubborn resistance to authority, but my dad wants to be this authority. I think that's what his resentment is is that everyone else is recalcitrant, and that doesn't allow him to like be the authority,
Zero: 59:02
fight, fight power. But on some rage against the machine, Some grandsons, some public enemy, in reference to our earlier conversation, started as early as possible. It's your family. You can actually just tell them at the door. Hey, I'm using the pronouns. They Then there's I'll help you out if you forget frame, it is you being polite if you're genuinely worried and you don't want to offend your family, say, here is what I am doing. And if you make a mistake, I am happy to help you out while you are here. Be the one who puts out the olive branch first. These are my pronouns. They're not my preferred pronounce. These are my pronouns. If you don't use them, it will hurt my feelings. But if you use them incorrectly and you're not like making a big deal of using them wrong on purpose, I will help you out, because I understand that this is sort of set. You
spk_2: 59:49
don't have to do
Zero: 59:50
that for everybody, but you can do that for your family. If your dad really wants to be the authority, maybe you could even approach him first and say Hey, I would like your help making this happen. I
spk_2: 1:0:01
think I'd rather
Chicory: 1:0:01
start with my brother and sister in law and work out from there.
Zero: 1:0:06
Okay, First of all, find the allies in your family. But beyond that don't go into it being aggressive. I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with going into it being aggressive. But in these specific instance you're talking about, I think that you can go into it saying this is me. I understand. You may have difficulty with this. I am willing to help you through that difficulty. Do that if you can. Publicly even don't necessarily do it privately. If you don't believe that will work. And then they will feel that pressure again. The social pressure as other people do it. And as they see you being gracious, graciousness has and always will be a weapon that people will use to keep other people in line. There is no reason you cannot also use that weapon. Anybody who knows the Southerner knows the graciousness could be a weapon.
Chicory: 1:1:03
Aren't have failed that being born in the South does not use graciousness as
Zero: 1:1:09
a weapon. Well, your dad is a guy. Mmm. guys don't have to do that. South Tool, the wind. The South guys could just shoot people.
spk_2: 1:1:18
Uh, I wish you were wrong,
Chicory: 1:1:20
but that's a really good summation.
Zero: 1:1:23
I've met people from the south and your family. To be fair, you're mom's graciousness is really interesting and not Southern graciousness. She
Chicory: 1:1:32
has Midwestern graciousness, which is a different graciousness
spk_2: 1:1:35
altogether us. Which is a different kind of
Zero: 1:1:38
Crixus. That's how I would do it. Don't be afraid to make it sort of a public announcement. Keep the group sort of s maybe the way you described it brother and sister in law first and then branch out and sort of include more family members. Various things will work out different families, but make it feel like one. You're bringing them or into you, and two you want to help them. But be firm that this is not changing about you. You will help them reach the point that is not harmful to you anymore. But this is not an option. And this is not a thing they get to decide is not true. You do need to stick to those points.
Chicory: 1:2:23
Copy. Wrapping up. Get these things out of the way as soon as you can.
Zero: 1:2:29
Yes, as soon as you can. Being the operative word. Which is not necessarily the same as immediately.
spk_2: 1:2:34
I didn't say
Chicory: 1:2:34
immediately tonight.
Zero: 1:2:35
No, but I'm not always clarifying for you. You ready? We'll have not only fair, fair. She loves you, Dad. But you're wrong. Sometime,
Chicory: 1:2:45
most of the time, I mean Oh, my God, I Coke. A special ending. Bit I call my dad and ask him about what is the difference between, like, normal nuclear bombs and dirty nuclear bombs? And he laid it all out. He
spk_2: 1:2:57
was really right, Dad,
Chicory: 1:3:00
you're right about nuclear bones. Good job.
Zero: 1:3:04
I mean, the dirty bomb just sprays more nuclear material over an area and can be done with a standard
spk_2: 1:3:09
you. But she had all the
Chicory: 1:3:10
number zero and he had like, why does it do that? And like, how does the how is the reaction? Slightly different. All of that kind of stuff.
Zero: 1:3:17
Oh, that's cool.
spk_2: 1:3:19
It is super
Zero: 1:3:20
cool. I love you, Dad, but
spk_2: 1:3:22
sometimes you're right about I love you, Dad. You're You're not right about everything. You're really wrong on a lot of things.
spk_3: 1:3:32
But nukes a gun thank you for joining us for this odd re recorded at the sort of dead wrong I'm Whitney, editor and producer music was created by zero. You can find transcripts but show notes at Dodger Rock that buzz sprout dot com. You can also connect with us by email at Dad drug at gmail dot com or on Twitter at Daijiro. That's D E a d Why o U R e w r O Ed Jeep Please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your podcast platform would love to hear what you think. If you have a died, you're wrong situation of your own that you would like us to discuss. Please send us an email with the story and your questions. Thanks again, and we hope you will join us in January for the next episode.
