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- Hi, and welcome KCAW listeners at one hundred
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- point seven FM and online at kcaw.org,
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- Brookings, Oregon.
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- Hi to our syndicated listeners at KZZH
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- ninety six point seven FM Access Humboldt, Eureka,
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- California.
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- And in the Medford, Ashland area, Ashland 89.5
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- and Medford Ninety Four Point One on KSKQ.
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- Well, this is Joyously Free Radio Gaidio with
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- me, Joni Lindenmayer,
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- the best selling author of None Better, an
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- amazing love story, my story, and a co
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- author of Joyously Free and Healing Religious Hurts.
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- I'm so glad that you are tuning in
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- today.
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- I'm a resident of Harbor, Oregon, retired high
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- school teacher, a recent author who published three
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- books in two years, created an audiobook with
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- friend and film producer Michael Gorse, and we
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- created the film, Wowzer. We are so excited
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- that it was selected at the LA Indie
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- Short Film Festival and was just awarded the
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- most inspirational
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- film at the Wild Rivers Film Festival just
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- recently, August thirteenth to sixteenth here in Brookings,
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- Oregon. Truly a wowzer.
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- But most of all, right here, right now,
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- I love life and love being the producer
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- and host of this high energy,
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- joyously free radio gatio show, so named by
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- my friends Will and Viv.
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- This show talks about LGBTQ
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- plus stories and tips
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- along with religion, church, faith, spirituality,
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- and joy.
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- Simply said, the purpose of the show is
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- to share, radiate, and spread that abundant joy
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- and freedom, hence the the title Joyously Free.
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- Also, the name of my second book that
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- I coauthored with Elizabeth Ann Atkins of two
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- sisters writing. In this radio gatiel broadcast,
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- as in every day in my life, there's
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- no hate speech,
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- There's no hate behaviors, and there's no bullying.
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- This will be blasted with the three c's,
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- courage, confidence, and collaboration.
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- It's together, listeners, that we sparkle and seek
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- understanding,
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- that we think out of a box or
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- no boxes at all, to be open minded
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- as an open parachute.
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- Every day for forty years, my sweetie Carol
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- and I had a salutation,
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- and I'd like to teach it to you
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- so that you also can respond and be
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- with us that way today.
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- I'm going to say it's a brand new
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- day, and if you please respond with it's
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- never been lived before.
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- Here we go.
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- It's a brand new day.
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- It's never been lived before. Woah. I love
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- that. I love that when everybody can participate.
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- Thank you, Jim. I'll introduce him in just
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- a second. He's just sitting a few feet
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- away from me with sparkly eyes. He has
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- notes in front of himself, and I know
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- it's gonna be an incredible conversation.
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- But before we delve into that, let's open
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- our hearts.
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- Ask the divine to shine light on our
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- community
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- and our world.
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- I excitedly believe in hope, in the power
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- of the spiritual,
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- and that Jesus, God, spirit,
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- love, light, whatever name you put on a
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- higher being is always with me and always
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- with you.
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- So be not afraid or troubled,
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- saddened or depressed.
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- Joy and peace are an internal expression
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- of love and harmony that is already within
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- us. We only have to reach deep and
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- let it out.
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- So let's center ourselves.
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- Calmly,
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- slowly,
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- take a deep breath in with the good
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- and exhale out
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- any doubt.
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- Again, breathe in through your nose with hope
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- and exhale out
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- any fear.
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- Last one, take a big deep breath in
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- with joy
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- and out your mouth
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- with any worry or despair.
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- In the name of mother earth, creator God,
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- Jesus redeemer, the blowing winds of the spirit,
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- we say, hi, love, hi, light, hi, spirit.
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- Thank you for being with us today.
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- Well, today's reading, I took from the the
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- Bible, from Matthew, actually.
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- It's called the Beatitudes.
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- Probably many of you have heard about that.
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- And and the word beatitude in Latin is
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- happiness,
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- is blessed.
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- So let me just read it, and then
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- we'll have a little bit of silence. I'm
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- not gonna give any reflections on it, but
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- I'm just gonna read the Beatitudes to you.
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- It's Matthew five verses one through 12.
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- Blessed are the poor in spirit,
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- for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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- Blessed are those who mourn,
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- for they will be comforted.
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- Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit
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- the earth.
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- Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for
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- righteousness,
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- for they will be filled.
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- Blessed are the merciful, for they will be
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- shown mercy.
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- Blessed are the pure in heart, for they
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- will see God.
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- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be
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- called children of God.
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- Blessed are those who are persecuted
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- because of righteousness,
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- for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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- Taking a few minutes or seconds of silence
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- just to let that settle in.
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- Let us end our morning prayer by lifting
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- up our friends and our family.
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- May you and I find divine guidance and
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- healing today.
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- May we rely on the holy one to
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- be with us all day long
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- and to recognize the people in our path
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- throughout the day.
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- We ask and pray that we do your
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- will, oh lord.
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- Amen.
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- Amen. Amen. Amen. Well,
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- everybody listening, we are in for a treat
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- today.
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- We have Jim Abbott, a retired Lutheran pastor,
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- also known as our public theologian.
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- And he is an incredible speaker, a wise,
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- articulate man. And our topic today is
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- based somewhat on a book, but also on
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- his heart and his opinions,
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- separating church from hate,
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- wearing new glasses.
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- Jim, thanks for being here today.
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- Thanks for inviting me. Oh my gosh. What
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- a topic we have to have going on
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- here.
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- We have, like, two hours. Right? We do.
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- We do. Oh my gosh. You know? And
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- I think probably the most important thing is
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- that how can people get ahold of you
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- if they have more comments or questions or
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- conversations they'd like to have with
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- you. Would that be through KCIW?
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- Yes. Okay. So if anybody... As you're listening
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- today and this triggers something in you, please
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- get a hold of KCIW.
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- We are at (541)
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- 661-4098.
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- And or you can go on to the
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- website and leave a comment under the joyously
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- free radio show. That's probably the best. But
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- we're gonna jump right in because Jim does
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- have a lot of things today. So where
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- do you wanna start with your heart and
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- your mind today, Jim?
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- I wanna set the stage a little bit.
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- I'll just be really quick.
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- Growing up,
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- our family
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- lived
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- in six different places,
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- and I went to six
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- different schools in five different states.
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- But the... One of the longest was in
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- Davenport, Iowa.
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- I started sixth grade in Davenport, Iowa. It
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- was a new school. And, of course, in
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- every new town, we would find a new
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- church.
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- It was always a Methodist church. And the
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- way we fit in is my parents
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- would go to the adult Sunday school class
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- and find a class that fit them
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- and that fit my sister and I. Oh.
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- So in sixth grade, I started with a
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- new school and a new church. And in
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- the new school, I noticed that there was
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- kind of a pretty teacher that I had
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- for half the day.
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- And I started listening in church. That's about
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- the time I would sit there in the
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- balcony,
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- and my parents had discovered that if you
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- put my sister on the left next to
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- my mother and me on the right next
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- to my father, then we couldn't fight.
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- So I had to listen to the sermon,
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- and I tried to understand what was going
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- on and how that stuff fit together. Mhmm.
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- And in the school,
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- I was great at reading, but I started
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- having a little trouble seeing stuff on the
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- blackboard. Oh.
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- And, you know, when you don't see the
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- words clearly, it's hard to understand the idea
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- behind the words.
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- So guess what?
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- I got glasses,
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- and everything was sharp and clear.
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- Wowzer.
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- Wowzer. Oh, I like that. Have you ever
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- had an experience like that? When you suddenly
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- see like you've never seen before
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- Absolutely. Seeing
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- through these metal frames and plastic lenses. Of
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- course, I got up my first parents sixth
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- grade and I wear different glasses now.
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- But in one way or another, we all
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- wear glasses. Mhmm. We wear skeptical glasses or
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- stubborn glasses or narrowly focused glasses or frightened
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- glasses.
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- Or we wear generous,
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- flexible,
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- curious glasses,
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- glasses that let you see behind the words
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- to the ideas that the words are trying
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- to express.
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- Now, of course, Jesus did not wear glasses
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- perched on his nose,
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- but he did wear glasses that let him
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- see clearly what his father in heaven wanted
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- him to see and then to share that
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- with his disciples and through them with us.
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- When you read something that's important to you,
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- you bring your whole self to what you're
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- seeing and reading. And for me, at least,
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- the most important books I read are first,
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- the Bible.
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- And then I read a lot of other
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- books that help me understand
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- what those words in the Bible mean. Ah.
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- Now
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- as Joni introduced me, I'm a Lutheran pastor.
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- I'm a late bloomer. I started seminary at
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- age 48.
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- Wow. And,
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- not long after that when I was ordained
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- and serving a church,
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- I had one of those new glasses experiences.
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- I read books by Brian McLaren who I
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- got to meet at a retreat a couple
266
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- years ago,
267
00:10:10.549 --> 00:10:13.690
- and then I've had those experiences since then.
268
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- And one... The most recent one is a
269
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- book by a guy named John Fusilgang.
270
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- I hope I didn't murder that too badly,
271
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- John.
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- I saw him last year
273
00:10:25.095 --> 00:10:28.855
- give the keynote address at the Ecumenical Ministries
274
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- of Oregon. Oh.
275
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- And his book is called Separation of Church
276
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- and Hate.
277
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- What I saw then and need to keep
278
00:10:37.370 --> 00:10:39.629
- seeing new over and over again is this,
279
00:10:40.410 --> 00:10:43.129
- that there are two deeply different ways to
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- read and understand the Bible.
281
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- On the one hand, you can read the
282
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- Bible and say that every word was and
283
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- is literally
284
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- true and there are no factual errors whatsoever.
285
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- And the Bible is there to show us
286
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- really how bad and in need of discipline
287
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- we are,
288
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- and this literalist
289
00:11:01.294 --> 00:11:04.259
- narrow reading can close you in and leads
290
00:11:04.259 --> 00:11:06.120
- you mostly to judge others.
291
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- Joni has a book about that, how people
292
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- are hurt sometimes by churches.
293
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- Or you can read your... With glasses that
294
00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:16.040
- let you see in those same words
295
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- the love and generosity that God has for
296
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- everyone.
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- And you can be a passionate, serious Christian
298
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- without focusing on how much everybody else needs
299
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- to agree with how you see what those
300
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- words mean.
301
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- Well,
302
00:11:31.250 --> 00:11:32.149
- here we go.
303
00:11:36.289 --> 00:11:37.809
- When I try to put on the kind
304
00:11:37.809 --> 00:11:39.589
- of glasses that Jesus had,
305
00:11:39.970 --> 00:11:41.190
- what I see is
306
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- things like this.
307
00:11:44.325 --> 00:11:46.965
- From my daily devotion with father Richard Rohr,
308
00:11:46.965 --> 00:11:48.665
- he notices that Jesus
309
00:11:50.245 --> 00:11:53.285
- did not ever quote from 19 of the
310
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- books of the Bible.
311
00:11:54.804 --> 00:11:58.004
- He just kinda let those slide by. He
312
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- had favorites,
313
00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:00.139
- Exodus, Deuteronomy,
314
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- Isaiah,
315
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- the Psalms.
316
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- It clearly formed his whole conscience... Consciousness, the
317
00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:07.500
- whole Bible.
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- And the only time he quotes from Leviticus
319
00:12:11.414 --> 00:12:14.294
- is the only positive mandate among the long
320
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- list of negatives.
321
00:12:16.134 --> 00:12:18.934
- You must love your neighbor as yourself. Oh,
322
00:12:18.934 --> 00:12:19.434
- yes.
323
00:12:20.615 --> 00:12:21.754
- And that's the paradox.
324
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- If we look at what Jesus ignores, it
325
00:12:24.774 --> 00:12:27.929
- includes passages that make violence legitimate,
326
00:12:29.669 --> 00:12:30.730
- shore up imperialism,
327
00:12:31.990 --> 00:12:33.210
- excluding people,
328
00:12:33.830 --> 00:12:36.710
- the purity laws and the dietary laws. There's
329
00:12:36.710 --> 00:12:38.090
- 600 and some,
330
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- and Jesus,
331
00:12:40.115 --> 00:12:41.254
- the well educated
332
00:12:41.954 --> 00:12:43.575
- Bible formed quoter,
333
00:12:45.394 --> 00:12:46.934
- goes to the deeper stream
334
00:12:47.554 --> 00:12:49.654
- of g... Of God's unconditional
335
00:12:50.034 --> 00:12:50.534
- love,
336
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- the work of the spirit,
337
00:12:52.995 --> 00:12:56.090
- the whole trajectory of his Jewish history, which
338
00:12:56.090 --> 00:12:58.429
- never settles for surface meanings.
339
00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:02.029
- He disagrees with scripture sometimes and
340
00:13:02.649 --> 00:13:03.710
- doesn't have much
341
00:13:04.090 --> 00:13:05.790
- hope for the non essentials.
342
00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:07.929
- I was thinking as I drove over this
343
00:13:07.929 --> 00:13:09.929
- morning that I'm in violation of a couple
344
00:13:09.929 --> 00:13:13.034
- of those Levitical con. I'm wearing some clothes
345
00:13:13.034 --> 00:13:14.254
- that are mixed fabrics,
346
00:13:14.794 --> 00:13:16.154
- and that's against the,
347
00:13:16.554 --> 00:13:17.694
- biblical injunction.
348
00:13:18.475 --> 00:13:20.314
- The one that we all break a whole
349
00:13:20.314 --> 00:13:20.875
- lot is,
350
00:13:21.514 --> 00:13:24.334
- we don't keep the Sabbath very well. Mhmm.
351
00:13:24.634 --> 00:13:27.160
- Although I have given up to the greatest
352
00:13:27.160 --> 00:13:29.180
- extent possible, unless it's an emergency,
353
00:13:29.800 --> 00:13:32.200
- shopping on Sundays. Mhmm. Mhmm.
354
00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:34.460
- And you know what?
355
00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.340
- The divine commandment that he says
356
00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:39.639
- is love the lord your god with all
357
00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:41.565
- your heart, mind, soul, and strength,
358
00:13:42.125 --> 00:13:43.424
- and love your neighbor
359
00:13:43.884 --> 00:13:44.705
- as yourself.
360
00:13:46.524 --> 00:13:47.024
- Jesus
361
00:13:47.485 --> 00:13:49.985
- considers justice and love and mercy,
362
00:13:50.764 --> 00:13:51.585
- being faithful,
363
00:13:52.205 --> 00:13:54.144
- those are the weightier matters
364
00:13:54.524 --> 00:13:55.230
- of the law.
365
00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:58.769
- And he had a hierarchy of values.
366
00:13:59.389 --> 00:14:01.949
- Pope Francis indicated that mercy is right there
367
00:14:01.949 --> 00:14:03.490
- at the top of Christian values,
368
00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:05.730
- and it's not merciful
369
00:14:06.589 --> 00:14:09.504
- to exclude people. Right. Is that also evident
370
00:14:09.504 --> 00:14:11.605
- in the book that you referred to? Yes.
371
00:14:11.665 --> 00:14:13.504
- And I'm gonna get to that in just
372
00:14:13.504 --> 00:14:14.404
- a second. Okay.
373
00:14:15.264 --> 00:14:17.504
- Christians have thrived when we use the Bible
374
00:14:17.504 --> 00:14:19.605
- with the goal of becoming good people
375
00:14:20.230 --> 00:14:22.870
- who, because we follow Jesus, do good works
376
00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:24.649
- in God's good world.
377
00:14:25.669 --> 00:14:29.350
- And we get lost and wandering, and we
378
00:14:29.350 --> 00:14:31.350
- languish when we've used the Bible as a
379
00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:34.149
- weapon to threaten others or a tool to
380
00:14:34.149 --> 00:14:35.289
- intimidate people.
381
00:14:36.024 --> 00:14:38.125
- The very people who most love the Bible
382
00:14:38.504 --> 00:14:40.365
- sometimes get on the wrong track
383
00:14:41.784 --> 00:14:42.684
- and sometimes
384
00:14:43.144 --> 00:14:45.865
- use the Bible for the purposes it wasn't
385
00:14:45.865 --> 00:14:48.904
- intended. Yes. Oh god. And that's what John
386
00:14:48.904 --> 00:14:49.404
- Fusilgang's
387
00:14:49.705 --> 00:14:51.539
- book is about. It's called Separation
388
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:53.379
- of Church and Hate.
389
00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.660
- And he goes through many of the topics
390
00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:57.299
- today
391
00:14:58.399 --> 00:14:59.860
- that generate hate.
392
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:03.779
- And he shows how
393
00:15:05.415 --> 00:15:07.115
- the bible is misused
394
00:15:09.894 --> 00:15:10.795
- to do that.
395
00:15:13.575 --> 00:15:14.075
- And
396
00:15:15.894 --> 00:15:17.434
- And why did that happen?
397
00:15:17.809 --> 00:15:18.870
- Why did that happen?
398
00:15:19.970 --> 00:15:21.350
- It happens because
399
00:15:23.970 --> 00:15:24.949
- we're all
400
00:15:26.209 --> 00:15:27.110
- so delicate,
401
00:15:28.289 --> 00:15:30.629
- and we're all so easily frightened.
402
00:15:32.085 --> 00:15:34.644
- And people pick up on that and use
403
00:15:34.644 --> 00:15:35.544
- that fear
404
00:15:36.644 --> 00:15:37.785
- to build themselves
405
00:15:38.165 --> 00:15:38.665
- up.
406
00:15:42.725 --> 00:15:46.105
- You don't have to put someone else down
407
00:15:46.809 --> 00:15:48.110
- to build yourself
408
00:15:48.809 --> 00:15:50.750
- up. Yes. Yes.
409
00:15:51.370 --> 00:15:53.309
- Now if you pick up this book,
410
00:15:53.690 --> 00:15:54.829
- and I hope you do,
411
00:15:55.610 --> 00:15:57.049
- I'm not... I don't get a I don't
412
00:15:57.049 --> 00:15:58.190
- get a a kickback.
413
00:15:59.595 --> 00:16:01.934
- I'm not on his staff. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
414
00:16:02.315 --> 00:16:03.615
- If you use
415
00:16:05.034 --> 00:16:05.774
- this book,
416
00:16:06.794 --> 00:16:09.294
- if you read it, you will notice two
417
00:16:09.355 --> 00:16:09.855
- things.
418
00:16:10.475 --> 00:16:11.700
- First... Three things.
419
00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:15.480
- First of all, he uses humor.
420
00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:16.519
- Oh,
421
00:16:17.059 --> 00:16:18.600
- yay. I'm into that.
422
00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:21.879
- We were talking before we went live here,
423
00:16:21.940 --> 00:16:23.960
- and I said one of the things about
424
00:16:24.684 --> 00:16:27.504
- sort of the Joanie, Jim, KCIW
425
00:16:28.044 --> 00:16:28.944
- kinda people
426
00:16:29.404 --> 00:16:31.024
- are that we have a sense of humor.
427
00:16:31.084 --> 00:16:32.304
- Yes. Yes.
428
00:16:32.764 --> 00:16:33.264
- Now
429
00:16:34.444 --> 00:16:36.304
- we don't make fun
430
00:16:36.845 --> 00:16:39.299
- of God. That's a really bad idea.
431
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.720
- Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. But we do use her
432
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:43.220
- humor
433
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.059
- to sort of disarm
434
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:46.100
- people
435
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:48.639
- who think that they have all the right
436
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.940
- answers. Right.
437
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:52.500
- The second thing you'll notice
438
00:16:53.065 --> 00:16:55.404
- is that when he talks about the church
439
00:16:56.185 --> 00:16:58.205
- falling into the habit of hate,
440
00:16:58.825 --> 00:17:02.125
- that's often motivated by picking one verse
441
00:17:02.825 --> 00:17:04.845
- or even one part of a verse
442
00:17:05.705 --> 00:17:06.924
- out of the context
443
00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:10.070
- where it was given to us.
444
00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:15.029
- Here's an example
445
00:17:15.730 --> 00:17:18.470
- Okay. That comes to mind. One of my...
446
00:17:18.690 --> 00:17:21.109
- I have about 2,000 favorite Bible stories.
447
00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:23.109
- One of my favorites
448
00:17:23.515 --> 00:17:26.015
- is when Jesus goes home to Nazareth.
449
00:17:26.954 --> 00:17:29.214
- He goes to the synagogue on the Sabbath.
450
00:17:30.954 --> 00:17:33.434
- They hand him the scroll of the prophet
451
00:17:33.434 --> 00:17:33.934
- Isaiah.
452
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.480
- And he says, I've come to bring good
453
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.380
- news to the poor, freedom to the captive,
454
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.500
- justice
455
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:43.940
- to all.
456
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.440
- That's a bad paraphrase, but I'm sure you
457
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.045
- probably are familiar with this. Mhmm. Then he
458
00:17:50.045 --> 00:17:51.424
- rolls up the scroll
459
00:17:51.805 --> 00:17:53.184
- and hands it back
460
00:17:53.484 --> 00:17:54.865
- and he sits down.
461
00:17:56.444 --> 00:17:58.464
- In that time and place,
462
00:17:59.565 --> 00:18:00.065
- Jesus
463
00:18:00.365 --> 00:18:00.865
- omitted
464
00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:03.200
- the second half
465
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:04.960
- of the last verse.
466
00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.160
- Oh.
467
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:09.839
- Which is, and the day of God's vengeance.
468
00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:10.720
- Uh-huh.
469
00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:12.079
- Yeah.
470
00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:15.954
- Maybe that was the reason why they wanted
471
00:18:15.954 --> 00:18:18.694
- to throw him off the cliff. Mhmm. Because
472
00:18:18.835 --> 00:18:21.234
- first, he promises all the things they were
473
00:18:21.234 --> 00:18:24.355
- yearning for, all the things listed in the
474
00:18:24.355 --> 00:18:26.375
- beatitudes that you just said.
475
00:18:27.794 --> 00:18:29.974
- He was speaking to a bunch of poor,
476
00:18:30.380 --> 00:18:30.880
- downtrodden
477
00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:33.440
- people who lived in a system
478
00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:35.519
- that took every opportunity
479
00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.940
- to push them down and make them feel
480
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:40.000
- bad. Mhmm.
481
00:18:42.634 --> 00:18:44.894
- And that... And they were all for it,
482
00:18:44.954 --> 00:18:46.815
- and they blamed it all on the Romans.
483
00:18:47.835 --> 00:18:50.494
- Mhmm. Mhmm. And so they wanted to hear
484
00:18:50.794 --> 00:18:51.294
- vengeance.
485
00:18:51.674 --> 00:18:52.174
- Mhmm.
486
00:18:52.474 --> 00:18:53.534
- And he refused
487
00:18:54.075 --> 00:18:55.134
- to preach that.
488
00:18:56.075 --> 00:18:56.575
- Yep.
489
00:18:57.034 --> 00:18:57.534
- Yep.
490
00:18:57.919 --> 00:18:58.419
- Jesus
491
00:18:58.880 --> 00:18:59.380
- never
492
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:00.980
- preached revenge.
493
00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:02.500
- Right on.
494
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.640
- And I love what you just said a
495
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.700
- few minutes ago, a habit of hate. Yeah.
496
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.960
- Jesus was not one for having any habits
497
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.980
- of hate or any vengeance. No.
498
00:19:13.484 --> 00:19:15.265
- Yes. And how about us today?
499
00:19:16.125 --> 00:19:17.025
- Oh, dear.
500
00:19:17.644 --> 00:19:19.184
- Does the book get into that?
501
00:19:20.525 --> 00:19:22.065
- It it gets into that.
502
00:19:22.845 --> 00:19:25.005
- It's basically a... Then it goes into a
503
00:19:25.005 --> 00:19:27.565
- bunch of short chapters about thou shall not
504
00:19:27.565 --> 00:19:30.200
- hate and then fill in the blank. Oh,
505
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:32.759
- okay. Tell us more. Okay. Well, let me
506
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:34.940
- open up the table of contents here,
507
00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.380
- and, this will get some people upset. Alright?
508
00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:39.579
- I just just saying.
509
00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:42.440
- Well... And that is... At the very beginning,
510
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.964
- I mentioned have an open mind, have a
511
00:19:44.964 --> 00:19:47.045
- open heart, and you're saying it with new
512
00:19:47.045 --> 00:19:49.125
- glasses. So here we go. We have new
513
00:19:49.125 --> 00:19:51.305
- glasses. See things in a new way.
514
00:19:53.845 --> 00:19:55.845
- Thou shalt not take all of this too
515
00:19:55.845 --> 00:19:56.345
- literally.
516
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:57.779
- Mhmm.
517
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.259
- Mhmm. Thou shalt not hate feminists.
518
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:02.980
- Mhmm. Thou shalt not hate gays.
519
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.099
- Thou shalt not hate people who have abortions.
520
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.119
- Thou shalt not hate illegals. Thou shalt not
521
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.180
- hate poor people.
522
00:20:12.664 --> 00:20:14.444
- Thou shalt not hate gun control.
523
00:20:15.224 --> 00:20:17.464
- Thou shalt not hate Jews, Muslims, or even
524
00:20:17.464 --> 00:20:17.964
- atheists.
525
00:20:19.065 --> 00:20:21.625
- There's a whole bunch of people not to
526
00:20:21.625 --> 00:20:22.125
- hate.
527
00:20:23.704 --> 00:20:24.204
- Jesus
528
00:20:24.904 --> 00:20:25.404
- drew
529
00:20:25.785 --> 00:20:26.684
- great crowds,
530
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.099
- and you never hear about a riot
531
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.079
- at one of his public events. Mhmm. What
532
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.400
- you hear about is feeding 5,000 people with
533
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.339
- a few loaves of bread and some fish.
534
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.625
- And... Okay. The feminist will love this one.
535
00:20:41.625 --> 00:20:43.964
- I love the way the Bible says it.
536
00:20:44.744 --> 00:20:47.704
- He fed 5,000 men plus some women and
537
00:20:47.704 --> 00:20:48.204
- children.
538
00:20:49.944 --> 00:20:52.285
- And that's because the words of the Bible
539
00:20:52.664 --> 00:20:55.244
- were written in a time and a culture
540
00:20:55.305 --> 00:20:56.684
- that are very different
541
00:20:57.380 --> 00:20:58.119
- from ours.
542
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:02.679
- And the point of that story, that parable
543
00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:04.359
- about feeding 5,000,
544
00:21:05.139 --> 00:21:06.440
- is that everybody
545
00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:08.599
- was fed. Yes.
546
00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:10.359
- Everybody
547
00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:11.319
- had
548
00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:12.119
- enough.
549
00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:14.484
- Yes. Yes. And they had doggy bags to
550
00:21:14.484 --> 00:21:16.805
- go. There was enough collected at the end
551
00:21:16.805 --> 00:21:19.285
- to be shared. To be shared later, you
552
00:21:19.285 --> 00:21:20.184
- know. Yep.
553
00:21:21.125 --> 00:21:21.625
- Because
554
00:21:22.805 --> 00:21:25.464
- we live in a world of abundance
555
00:21:25.845 --> 00:21:26.904
- that god created.
556
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:29.519
- And so what
557
00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:32.299
- people use to scare you is that there's
558
00:21:32.299 --> 00:21:35.660
- not enough to go around. Mhmm. Mhmm. There's
559
00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:37.680
- not enough to go around. Mhmm.
560
00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:41.039
- And there's a church in Brookings that
561
00:21:41.365 --> 00:21:43.365
- feeds people I think three or four days
562
00:21:43.365 --> 00:21:45.924
- a week and averages somewhere between 70 and
563
00:21:45.924 --> 00:21:48.424
- a 100 people Per day. Per day
564
00:21:48.964 --> 00:21:50.984
- who show up for a free hot meal.
565
00:21:51.044 --> 00:21:52.884
- Right. And there are three or four other
566
00:21:52.884 --> 00:21:54.664
- churches who take up the other days
567
00:22:08.660 --> 00:22:09.494
- And it says, serving
568
00:22:09.974 --> 00:22:12.075
- And it says, serving people
569
00:22:12.454 --> 00:22:15.255
- in Brookings Harbor since sometime in the nineteen
570
00:22:15.255 --> 00:22:15.755
- eighties?
571
00:22:16.055 --> 00:22:17.115
- Mhmm. Mhmm.
572
00:22:18.375 --> 00:22:20.775
- I love those folks. Mhmm. They do great
573
00:22:20.775 --> 00:22:23.335
- work. Mhmm. Absolutely. I wanna put them out
574
00:22:23.335 --> 00:22:23.914
- of business.
575
00:22:24.694 --> 00:22:24.990
- Yeah.
576
00:22:25.549 --> 00:22:26.049
- Yeah.
577
00:22:26.429 --> 00:22:27.970
- Why do we need,
578
00:22:28.349 --> 00:22:29.970
- in 2026,
579
00:22:30.509 --> 00:22:33.250
- to have been feeding people who need
580
00:22:33.549 --> 00:22:35.490
- food for forty years,
581
00:22:36.190 --> 00:22:37.890
- give or take a year? Mhmm.
582
00:22:39.869 --> 00:22:41.454
- Mhmm. So what do you think about that?
583
00:22:41.454 --> 00:22:44.034
- What would be another alternative then based upon
584
00:22:44.095 --> 00:22:44.595
- your
585
00:22:44.974 --> 00:22:47.234
- your information, the book, your heart?
586
00:22:48.734 --> 00:22:50.595
- Well, I wanna start with the book
587
00:22:53.134 --> 00:22:54.755
- because when we bring ourselves
588
00:22:55.454 --> 00:22:56.274
- to the Bible,
589
00:22:57.110 --> 00:22:58.490
- you bring your whole self.
590
00:22:59.269 --> 00:23:01.210
- Your experiences, your history,
591
00:23:02.789 --> 00:23:03.289
- whatever
592
00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:07.370
- you can muster, you give it all.
593
00:23:07.990 --> 00:23:09.930
- And when you do that, you open yourself
594
00:23:09.990 --> 00:23:10.490
- up.
595
00:23:12.285 --> 00:23:13.424
- I'm not a politician.
596
00:23:14.525 --> 00:23:16.605
- I'm a theologian. I study God and how
597
00:23:16.605 --> 00:23:19.244
- that relates to the way I live, you
598
00:23:19.244 --> 00:23:21.965
- live, we all live together. Mhmm. So I
599
00:23:21.965 --> 00:23:24.625
- don't have a practical solution to ending hunger.
600
00:23:25.005 --> 00:23:25.744
- Sorry, folks.
601
00:23:28.789 --> 00:23:30.549
- What I do have is a heart that
602
00:23:30.549 --> 00:23:32.250
- says, we can do better.
603
00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:33.049
- Yes.
604
00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:35.210
- Yes. And a heart that says,
605
00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:39.930
- don't kick anybody out. Right.
606
00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:42.170
- Right. There are people
607
00:23:43.045 --> 00:23:45.365
- who live differently than than... I've been to
608
00:23:45.365 --> 00:23:46.265
- Joni's house
609
00:23:46.644 --> 00:23:49.224
- than Joni and I live. We live differently.
610
00:23:50.085 --> 00:23:51.865
- There are people who prefer...
611
00:23:52.244 --> 00:23:53.384
- There are people who
612
00:23:53.845 --> 00:23:54.664
- who live
613
00:23:55.045 --> 00:23:55.545
- unsheltered.
614
00:23:56.565 --> 00:23:58.184
- There are people who live
615
00:23:59.029 --> 00:24:01.269
- with deep pain that maybe they don't even
616
00:24:01.269 --> 00:24:03.529
- know where it comes from and they use,
617
00:24:05.829 --> 00:24:08.089
- they just can't live an organized
618
00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:11.450
- systematic life. I was early for this appointment.
619
00:24:12.069 --> 00:24:12.569
- Right.
620
00:24:12.950 --> 00:24:13.450
- Right.
621
00:24:14.884 --> 00:24:16.484
- So so I know we're gonna wind down
622
00:24:16.484 --> 00:24:19.384
- here, Jen. Yeah. Any total final comments
623
00:24:20.164 --> 00:24:22.005
- from your heart or from the book? And
624
00:24:22.005 --> 00:24:23.845
- re... Please repeat the title and the author
625
00:24:23.845 --> 00:24:25.204
- of that so people can get a hold
626
00:24:25.204 --> 00:24:26.345
- of that. Separation
627
00:24:26.644 --> 00:24:28.345
- of Church and Hate.
628
00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:33.000
- Okay. That's the title of the book. Great.
629
00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:35.240
- And your last comments from your heart?
630
00:24:36.419 --> 00:24:37.160
- Be kind.
631
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:38.839
- Be generous.
632
00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:44.839
- Be aware that god's love surrounds you
633
00:24:45.355 --> 00:24:46.174
- every minute
634
00:24:46.714 --> 00:24:47.694
- of every day.
635
00:24:49.914 --> 00:24:50.894
- And if I...
636
00:24:52.394 --> 00:24:53.774
- Be not afraid.
637
00:24:54.714 --> 00:24:55.615
- There are people
638
00:24:56.154 --> 00:24:56.894
- in power
639
00:24:57.450 --> 00:24:59.390
- who want us to be afraid.
640
00:25:01.210 --> 00:25:02.349
- Giving up fear
641
00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:03.789
- and grabbing
642
00:25:04.569 --> 00:25:05.069
- hope
643
00:25:05.849 --> 00:25:07.309
- is a way of resisting
644
00:25:08.089 --> 00:25:08.589
- evil.
645
00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:11.869
- Be not afraid.
646
00:25:13.234 --> 00:25:17.075
- Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful. I am with you 1,001
647
00:25:17.075 --> 00:25:19.234
- gazillion percent on that. And I hope you
648
00:25:19.234 --> 00:25:20.994
- are too listeners. And if not, we have
649
00:25:20.994 --> 00:25:22.434
- a... We have some work to do. We
650
00:25:22.434 --> 00:25:24.034
- have a message to get across. We have
651
00:25:24.034 --> 00:25:26.194
- a way to live with abundance and that
652
00:25:26.194 --> 00:25:26.694
- love.
653
00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:31.529
- Yes. So thank you so much, Jim, for
654
00:25:31.529 --> 00:25:33.929
- your for your your input today, for your
655
00:25:33.929 --> 00:25:34.829
- your theological
656
00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:37.849
- perspective. I just love that. And it gives
657
00:25:37.849 --> 00:25:40.009
- the readers... The listeners a chance to read
658
00:25:40.009 --> 00:25:42.375
- a book that you find very, very incredible.
659
00:25:42.375 --> 00:25:44.534
- So thank you. Oh, listeners, we wanna thank
660
00:25:44.534 --> 00:25:46.615
- you for joining us today, those on the
661
00:25:46.615 --> 00:25:48.934
- Southern Oregon Coast, the Northern California Coast, and
662
00:25:48.934 --> 00:25:51.015
- over in the Rogue Valley area for being
663
00:25:51.015 --> 00:25:53.049
- with us in a joyously free manner. We
664
00:25:53.049 --> 00:25:55.289
- hope you've been inspired and challenged by Jim
665
00:25:55.289 --> 00:25:57.690
- today. The stories, the tips, the wearing of
666
00:25:57.690 --> 00:26:00.570
- new glasses, the abundance of love, the getting
667
00:26:00.570 --> 00:26:02.730
- rid of a habit of hate, of choosing
668
00:26:02.730 --> 00:26:04.890
- how you really want to live better and
669
00:26:04.890 --> 00:26:07.615
- better for all of us. Wowser, just fantastic.
670
00:26:07.755 --> 00:26:09.115
- Thank you, Jim, from the top of my
671
00:26:09.115 --> 00:26:11.194
- heart. But my whole heart. Thank you so
672
00:26:11.194 --> 00:26:13.514
- much, Jim. Thank you. We wanna thank the
673
00:26:13.514 --> 00:26:16.575
- the team, Michael Gorse, as well as KCAW.
674
00:26:17.914 --> 00:26:21.034
- My... Michael Gorse combos at Candice and Rose
675
00:26:21.034 --> 00:26:23.380
- to make sure that everybody is thanked and
676
00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:25.779
- honored for what they contribute and do. Give
677
00:26:25.779 --> 00:26:27.940
- Steve Van Cleave, Doris West to be Sally
678
00:26:27.940 --> 00:26:29.940
- and Todd Roy our sponsors for making this
679
00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:31.940
- happen. And we're gonna end the show as
680
00:26:31.940 --> 00:26:33.779
- we always do, and I think it ties
681
00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:35.000
- in with Jim's thing.
682
00:26:35.345 --> 00:26:37.684
- Smile big, wear bright colors.
683
00:26:38.144 --> 00:26:40.244
- And a last comment from Jim is
684
00:26:40.785 --> 00:26:42.945
- This day has never been lived, so let's
685
00:26:42.945 --> 00:26:45.345
- live it good. Woo hoo. Thank you, Jim.
686
00:26:45.345 --> 00:26:47.045
- You're the best. You're the best.
1
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:14.240
- Hi, and welcome KCAW listeners at one hundred
2
00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.545
- point seven FM and online at kcaw.org,
3
00:00:17.545 --> 00:00:18.445
- Brookings, Oregon.
4
00:00:18.745 --> 00:00:20.925
- Hi to our syndicated listeners at KZZH
5
00:00:21.545 --> 00:00:24.984
- ninety six point seven FM Access Humboldt, Eureka,
6
00:00:24.984 --> 00:00:25.484
- California.
7
00:00:25.864 --> 00:00:29.460
- And in the Medford, Ashland area, Ashland 89.5
8
00:00:29.539 --> 00:00:32.280
- and Medford Ninety Four Point One on KSKQ.
9
00:00:33.219 --> 00:00:36.020
- Well, this is Joyously Free Radio Gaidio with
10
00:00:36.020 --> 00:00:37.239
- me, Joni Lindenmayer,
11
00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:39.460
- the best selling author of None Better, an
12
00:00:39.460 --> 00:00:41.859
- amazing love story, my story, and a co
13
00:00:41.859 --> 00:00:44.564
- author of Joyously Free and Healing Religious Hurts.
14
00:00:44.645 --> 00:00:46.644
- I'm so glad that you are tuning in
15
00:00:46.644 --> 00:00:47.144
- today.
16
00:00:47.524 --> 00:00:50.085
- I'm a resident of Harbor, Oregon, retired high
17
00:00:50.085 --> 00:00:52.564
- school teacher, a recent author who published three
18
00:00:52.564 --> 00:00:55.125
- books in two years, created an audiobook with
19
00:00:55.125 --> 00:00:57.579
- friend and film producer Michael Gorse, and we
20
00:00:57.579 --> 00:01:00.219
- created the film, Wowzer. We are so excited
21
00:01:00.219 --> 00:01:02.140
- that it was selected at the LA Indie
22
00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:04.619
- Short Film Festival and was just awarded the
23
00:01:04.619 --> 00:01:05.439
- most inspirational
24
00:01:06.459 --> 00:01:08.939
- film at the Wild Rivers Film Festival just
25
00:01:08.939 --> 00:01:11.739
- recently, August thirteenth to sixteenth here in Brookings,
26
00:01:11.739 --> 00:01:13.615
- Oregon. Truly a wowzer.
27
00:01:14.075 --> 00:01:16.395
- But most of all, right here, right now,
28
00:01:16.395 --> 00:01:18.314
- I love life and love being the producer
29
00:01:18.314 --> 00:01:20.734
- and host of this high energy,
30
00:01:21.034 --> 00:01:24.555
- joyously free radio gatio show, so named by
31
00:01:24.555 --> 00:01:25.950
- my friends Will and Viv.
32
00:01:26.509 --> 00:01:28.289
- This show talks about LGBTQ
33
00:01:28.670 --> 00:01:29.969
- plus stories and tips
34
00:01:30.269 --> 00:01:32.849
- along with religion, church, faith, spirituality,
35
00:01:33.310 --> 00:01:34.049
- and joy.
36
00:01:34.509 --> 00:01:36.989
- Simply said, the purpose of the show is
37
00:01:36.989 --> 00:01:40.189
- to share, radiate, and spread that abundant joy
38
00:01:40.189 --> 00:01:42.814
- and freedom, hence the the title Joyously Free.
39
00:01:42.875 --> 00:01:44.635
- Also, the name of my second book that
40
00:01:44.635 --> 00:01:47.034
- I coauthored with Elizabeth Ann Atkins of two
41
00:01:47.034 --> 00:01:49.935
- sisters writing. In this radio gatiel broadcast,
42
00:01:50.314 --> 00:01:52.635
- as in every day in my life, there's
43
00:01:52.635 --> 00:01:53.370
- no hate speech,
44
00:01:53.850 --> 00:01:56.350
- There's no hate behaviors, and there's no bullying.
45
00:01:56.730 --> 00:01:58.829
- This will be blasted with the three c's,
46
00:01:59.130 --> 00:02:00.909
- courage, confidence, and collaboration.
47
00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:04.329
- It's together, listeners, that we sparkle and seek
48
00:02:04.329 --> 00:02:04.829
- understanding,
49
00:02:05.210 --> 00:02:07.105
- that we think out of a box or
50
00:02:07.105 --> 00:02:09.585
- no boxes at all, to be open minded
51
00:02:09.585 --> 00:02:10.805
- as an open parachute.
52
00:02:11.504 --> 00:02:13.745
- Every day for forty years, my sweetie Carol
53
00:02:13.745 --> 00:02:15.125
- and I had a salutation,
54
00:02:15.425 --> 00:02:16.784
- and I'd like to teach it to you
55
00:02:16.784 --> 00:02:19.104
- so that you also can respond and be
56
00:02:19.104 --> 00:02:20.324
- with us that way today.
57
00:02:20.625 --> 00:02:22.224
- I'm going to say it's a brand new
58
00:02:22.224 --> 00:02:24.479
- day, and if you please respond with it's
59
00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:25.620
- never been lived before.
60
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:26.819
- Here we go.
61
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:28.819
- It's a brand new day.
62
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.919
- It's never been lived before. Woah. I love
63
00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:33.939
- that. I love that when everybody can participate.
64
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.159
- Thank you, Jim. I'll introduce him in just
65
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:37.895
- a second. He's just sitting a few feet
66
00:02:37.895 --> 00:02:39.974
- away from me with sparkly eyes. He has
67
00:02:39.974 --> 00:02:41.974
- notes in front of himself, and I know
68
00:02:41.974 --> 00:02:43.835
- it's gonna be an incredible conversation.
69
00:02:44.135 --> 00:02:46.294
- But before we delve into that, let's open
70
00:02:46.294 --> 00:02:46.955
- our hearts.
71
00:02:47.335 --> 00:02:49.254
- Ask the divine to shine light on our
72
00:02:49.254 --> 00:02:49.754
- community
73
00:02:50.055 --> 00:02:50.955
- and our world.
74
00:02:51.659 --> 00:02:54.219
- I excitedly believe in hope, in the power
75
00:02:54.219 --> 00:02:55.039
- of the spiritual,
76
00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:57.680
- and that Jesus, God, spirit,
77
00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:01.180
- love, light, whatever name you put on a
78
00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:04.379
- higher being is always with me and always
79
00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:05.039
- with you.
80
00:03:05.340 --> 00:03:07.120
- So be not afraid or troubled,
81
00:03:07.474 --> 00:03:08.375
- saddened or depressed.
82
00:03:08.915 --> 00:03:11.254
- Joy and peace are an internal expression
83
00:03:11.555 --> 00:03:14.514
- of love and harmony that is already within
84
00:03:14.514 --> 00:03:17.074
- us. We only have to reach deep and
85
00:03:17.074 --> 00:03:17.974
- let it out.
86
00:03:18.275 --> 00:03:19.735
- So let's center ourselves.
87
00:03:20.754 --> 00:03:21.254
- Calmly,
88
00:03:21.819 --> 00:03:22.319
- slowly,
89
00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:24.959
- take a deep breath in with the good
90
00:03:27.580 --> 00:03:29.120
- and exhale out
91
00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:30.400
- any doubt.
92
00:03:31.739 --> 00:03:34.400
- Again, breathe in through your nose with hope
93
00:03:36.139 --> 00:03:37.395
- and exhale out
94
00:03:38.194 --> 00:03:39.094
- any fear.
95
00:03:40.835 --> 00:03:43.155
- Last one, take a big deep breath in
96
00:03:43.155 --> 00:03:43.895
- with joy
97
00:03:45.395 --> 00:03:46.775
- and out your mouth
98
00:03:47.155 --> 00:03:48.775
- with any worry or despair.
99
00:03:49.314 --> 00:03:51.810
- In the name of mother earth, creator God,
100
00:03:51.810 --> 00:03:54.129
- Jesus redeemer, the blowing winds of the spirit,
101
00:03:54.129 --> 00:03:57.189
- we say, hi, love, hi, light, hi, spirit.
102
00:03:57.250 --> 00:03:59.110
- Thank you for being with us today.
103
00:03:59.650 --> 00:04:01.810
- Well, today's reading, I took from the the
104
00:04:01.810 --> 00:04:03.909
- Bible, from Matthew, actually.
105
00:04:04.224 --> 00:04:05.284
- It's called the Beatitudes.
106
00:04:05.585 --> 00:04:07.444
- Probably many of you have heard about that.
107
00:04:07.504 --> 00:04:10.224
- And and the word beatitude in Latin is
108
00:04:10.224 --> 00:04:10.724
- happiness,
109
00:04:11.025 --> 00:04:11.844
- is blessed.
110
00:04:12.145 --> 00:04:13.504
- So let me just read it, and then
111
00:04:13.504 --> 00:04:14.944
- we'll have a little bit of silence. I'm
112
00:04:14.944 --> 00:04:16.705
- not gonna give any reflections on it, but
113
00:04:16.705 --> 00:04:19.050
- I'm just gonna read the Beatitudes to you.
114
00:04:19.529 --> 00:04:22.430
- It's Matthew five verses one through 12.
115
00:04:23.689 --> 00:04:25.629
- Blessed are the poor in spirit,
116
00:04:26.089 --> 00:04:28.110
- for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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- Blessed are those who mourn,
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- for they will be comforted.
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- Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit
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- the earth.
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- Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for
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- righteousness,
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- for they will be filled.
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- Blessed are the merciful, for they will be
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- shown mercy.
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- Blessed are the pure in heart, for they
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- will see God.
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- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be
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- called children of God.
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- Blessed are those who are persecuted
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- because of righteousness,
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- for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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- Taking a few minutes or seconds of silence
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- just to let that settle in.
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- Let us end our morning prayer by lifting
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- up our friends and our family.
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- May you and I find divine guidance and
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- healing today.
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- May we rely on the holy one to
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- be with us all day long
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- and to recognize the people in our path
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- throughout the day.
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- We ask and pray that we do your
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- will, oh lord.
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- Amen.
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- Amen. Amen. Amen. Well,
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- everybody listening, we are in for a treat
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- today.
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- We have Jim Abbott, a retired Lutheran pastor,
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- also known as our public theologian.
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- And he is an incredible speaker, a wise,
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- articulate man. And our topic today is
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- based somewhat on a book, but also on
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- his heart and his opinions,
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- separating church from hate,
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- wearing new glasses.
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- Jim, thanks for being here today.
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- Thanks for inviting me. Oh my gosh. What
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- a topic we have to have going on
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- here.
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- We have, like, two hours. Right? We do.
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- We do. Oh my gosh. You know? And
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- I think probably the most important thing is
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- that how can people get ahold of you
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- if they have more comments or questions or
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- conversations they'd like to have with
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- you. Would that be through KCIW?
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- Yes. Okay. So if anybody... As you're listening
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- today and this triggers something in you, please
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- get a hold of KCIW.
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- We are at (541)
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- 661-4098.
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- And or you can go on to the
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- website and leave a comment under the joyously
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- free radio show. That's probably the best. But
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- we're gonna jump right in because Jim does
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- have a lot of things today. So where
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- do you wanna start with your heart and
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- your mind today, Jim?
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- I wanna set the stage a little bit.
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- I'll just be really quick.
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- Growing up,
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- our family
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- lived
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- in six different places,
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- and I went to six
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- different schools in five different states.
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- But the... One of the longest was in
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- Davenport, Iowa.
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- I started sixth grade in Davenport, Iowa. It
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- was a new school. And, of course, in
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- every new town, we would find a new
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- church.
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- It was always a Methodist church. And the
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- way we fit in is my parents
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- would go to the adult Sunday school class
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- and find a class that fit them
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- and that fit my sister and I. Oh.
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- So in sixth grade, I started with a
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- new school and a new church. And in
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- the new school, I noticed that there was
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- kind of a pretty teacher that I had
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- for half the day.
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- And I started listening in church. That's about
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- the time I would sit there in the
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- balcony,
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- and my parents had discovered that if you
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- put my sister on the left next to
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- my mother and me on the right next
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- to my father, then we couldn't fight.
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- So I had to listen to the sermon,
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- and I tried to understand what was going
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- on and how that stuff fit together. Mhmm.
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- And in the school,
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- I was great at reading, but I started
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- having a little trouble seeing stuff on the
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- blackboard. Oh.
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- And, you know, when you don't see the
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- words clearly, it's hard to understand the idea
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- behind the words.
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- So guess what?
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- I got glasses,
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- and everything was sharp and clear.
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- Wowzer.
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- Wowzer. Oh, I like that. Have you ever
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- had an experience like that? When you suddenly
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- see like you've never seen before
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- Absolutely. Seeing
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- through these metal frames and plastic lenses. Of
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- course, I got up my first parents sixth
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- grade and I wear different glasses now.
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- But in one way or another, we all
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- wear glasses. Mhmm. We wear skeptical glasses or
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- stubborn glasses or narrowly focused glasses or frightened
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- glasses.
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- Or we wear generous,
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- flexible,
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- curious glasses,
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- glasses that let you see behind the words
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- to the ideas that the words are trying
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- to express.
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- Now, of course, Jesus did not wear glasses
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- perched on his nose,
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- but he did wear glasses that let him
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- see clearly what his father in heaven wanted
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- him to see and then to share that
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- with his disciples and through them with us.
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- When you read something that's important to you,
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- you bring your whole self to what you're
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- seeing and reading. And for me, at least,
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- the most important books I read are first,
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- the Bible.
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- And then I read a lot of other
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- books that help me understand
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- what those words in the Bible mean. Ah.
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- Now
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- as Joni introduced me, I'm a Lutheran pastor.
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- I'm a late bloomer. I started seminary at
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- age 48.
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- Wow. And,
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- not long after that when I was ordained
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- and serving a church,
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- I had one of those new glasses experiences.
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- I read books by Brian McLaren who I
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- got to meet at a retreat a couple
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- years ago,
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- and then I've had those experiences since then.
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- And one... The most recent one is a
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- book by a guy named John Fusilgang.
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- I hope I didn't murder that too badly,
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- John.
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- I saw him last year
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- give the keynote address at the Ecumenical Ministries
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- of Oregon. Oh.
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- And his book is called Separation of Church
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- and Hate.
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- What I saw then and need to keep
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- seeing new over and over again is this,
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- that there are two deeply different ways to
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- read and understand the Bible.
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- On the one hand, you can read the
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- Bible and say that every word was and
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- is literally
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- true and there are no factual errors whatsoever.
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- And the Bible is there to show us
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- really how bad and in need of discipline
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- we are,
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- and this literalist
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- narrow reading can close you in and leads
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- you mostly to judge others.
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- Joni has a book about that, how people
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- are hurt sometimes by churches.
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- Or you can read your... With glasses that
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- let you see in those same words
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- the love and generosity that God has for
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- everyone.
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- And you can be a passionate, serious Christian
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- without focusing on how much everybody else needs
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- to agree with how you see what those
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- words mean.
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- Well,
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- here we go.
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- When I try to put on the kind
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- of glasses that Jesus had,
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- what I see is
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- things like this.
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- From my daily devotion with father Richard Rohr,
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- he notices that Jesus
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- did not ever quote from 19 of the
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- books of the Bible.
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- He just kinda let those slide by. He
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- had favorites,
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- Exodus, Deuteronomy,
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- Isaiah,
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- the Psalms.
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- It clearly formed his whole conscience... Consciousness, the
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- whole Bible.
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- And the only time he quotes from Leviticus
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- is the only positive mandate among the long
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- list of negatives.
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- You must love your neighbor as yourself. Oh,
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- yes.
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- And that's the paradox.
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- If we look at what Jesus ignores, it
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- includes passages that make violence legitimate,
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- shore up imperialism,
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- excluding people,
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- the purity laws and the dietary laws. There's
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- 600 and some,
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- and Jesus,
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- the well educated
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- Bible formed quoter,
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- goes to the deeper stream
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- of g... Of God's unconditional
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- love,
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- the work of the spirit,
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- the whole trajectory of his Jewish history, which
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- never settles for surface meanings.
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- He disagrees with scripture sometimes and
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- doesn't have much
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- hope for the non essentials.
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- I was thinking as I drove over this
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- morning that I'm in violation of a couple
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- of those Levitical con. I'm wearing some clothes
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- that are mixed fabrics,
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- and that's against the,
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- biblical injunction.
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- The one that we all break a whole
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- lot is,
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- we don't keep the Sabbath very well. Mhmm.
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- Although I have given up to the greatest
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- extent possible, unless it's an emergency,
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- shopping on Sundays. Mhmm. Mhmm.
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- And you know what?
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- The divine commandment that he says
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- is love the lord your god with all
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- your heart, mind, soul, and strength,
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- and love your neighbor
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- as yourself.
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- Jesus
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- considers justice and love and mercy,
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- being faithful,
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- those are the weightier matters
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- of the law.
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- And he had a hierarchy of values.
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- Pope Francis indicated that mercy is right there
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- at the top of Christian values,
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- and it's not merciful
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- to exclude people. Right. Is that also evident
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- in the book that you referred to? Yes.
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- And I'm gonna get to that in just
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- a second. Okay.
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- Christians have thrived when we use the Bible
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- with the goal of becoming good people
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- who, because we follow Jesus, do good works
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- in God's good world.
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- And we get lost and wandering, and we
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- languish when we've used the Bible as a
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- weapon to threaten others or a tool to
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- intimidate people.
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- The very people who most love the Bible
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- sometimes get on the wrong track
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- and sometimes
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- use the Bible for the purposes it wasn't
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- intended. Yes. Oh god. And that's what John
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00:14:48.904 --> 00:14:49.404
- Fusilgang's
387
00:14:49.705 --> 00:14:51.539
- book is about. It's called Separation
388
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:53.379
- of Church and Hate.
389
00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.660
- And he goes through many of the topics
390
00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:57.299
- today
391
00:14:58.399 --> 00:14:59.860
- that generate hate.
392
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:03.779
- And he shows how
393
00:15:05.415 --> 00:15:07.115
- the bible is misused
394
00:15:09.894 --> 00:15:10.795
- to do that.
395
00:15:13.575 --> 00:15:14.075
- And
396
00:15:15.894 --> 00:15:17.434
- And why did that happen?
397
00:15:17.809 --> 00:15:18.870
- Why did that happen?
398
00:15:19.970 --> 00:15:21.350
- It happens because
399
00:15:23.970 --> 00:15:24.949
- we're all
400
00:15:26.209 --> 00:15:27.110
- so delicate,
401
00:15:28.289 --> 00:15:30.629
- and we're all so easily frightened.
402
00:15:32.085 --> 00:15:34.644
- And people pick up on that and use
403
00:15:34.644 --> 00:15:35.544
- that fear
404
00:15:36.644 --> 00:15:37.785
- to build themselves
405
00:15:38.165 --> 00:15:38.665
- up.
406
00:15:42.725 --> 00:15:46.105
- You don't have to put someone else down
407
00:15:46.809 --> 00:15:48.110
- to build yourself
408
00:15:48.809 --> 00:15:50.750
- up. Yes. Yes.
409
00:15:51.370 --> 00:15:53.309
- Now if you pick up this book,
410
00:15:53.690 --> 00:15:54.829
- and I hope you do,
411
00:15:55.610 --> 00:15:57.049
- I'm not... I don't get a I don't
412
00:15:57.049 --> 00:15:58.190
- get a a kickback.
413
00:15:59.595 --> 00:16:01.934
- I'm not on his staff. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
414
00:16:02.315 --> 00:16:03.615
- If you use
415
00:16:05.034 --> 00:16:05.774
- this book,
416
00:16:06.794 --> 00:16:09.294
- if you read it, you will notice two
417
00:16:09.355 --> 00:16:09.855
- things.
418
00:16:10.475 --> 00:16:11.700
- First... Three things.
419
00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:15.480
- First of all, he uses humor.
420
00:16:16.019 --> 00:16:16.519
- Oh,
421
00:16:17.059 --> 00:16:18.600
- yay. I'm into that.
422
00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:21.879
- We were talking before we went live here,
423
00:16:21.940 --> 00:16:23.960
- and I said one of the things about
424
00:16:24.684 --> 00:16:27.504
- sort of the Joanie, Jim, KCIW
425
00:16:28.044 --> 00:16:28.944
- kinda people
426
00:16:29.404 --> 00:16:31.024
- are that we have a sense of humor.
427
00:16:31.084 --> 00:16:32.304
- Yes. Yes.
428
00:16:32.764 --> 00:16:33.264
- Now
429
00:16:34.444 --> 00:16:36.304
- we don't make fun
430
00:16:36.845 --> 00:16:39.299
- of God. That's a really bad idea.
431
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.720
- Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. But we do use her
432
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:43.220
- humor
433
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.059
- to sort of disarm
434
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:46.100
- people
435
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:48.639
- who think that they have all the right
436
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.940
- answers. Right.
437
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:52.500
- The second thing you'll notice
438
00:16:53.065 --> 00:16:55.404
- is that when he talks about the church
439
00:16:56.185 --> 00:16:58.205
- falling into the habit of hate,
440
00:16:58.825 --> 00:17:02.125
- that's often motivated by picking one verse
441
00:17:02.825 --> 00:17:04.845
- or even one part of a verse
442
00:17:05.705 --> 00:17:06.924
- out of the context
443
00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:10.070
- where it was given to us.
444
00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:15.029
- Here's an example
445
00:17:15.730 --> 00:17:18.470
- Okay. That comes to mind. One of my...
446
00:17:18.690 --> 00:17:21.109
- I have about 2,000 favorite Bible stories.
447
00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:23.109
- One of my favorites
448
00:17:23.515 --> 00:17:26.015
- is when Jesus goes home to Nazareth.
449
00:17:26.954 --> 00:17:29.214
- He goes to the synagogue on the Sabbath.
450
00:17:30.954 --> 00:17:33.434
- They hand him the scroll of the prophet
451
00:17:33.434 --> 00:17:33.934
- Isaiah.
452
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.480
- And he says, I've come to bring good
453
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.380
- news to the poor, freedom to the captive,
454
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:42.500
- justice
455
00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:43.940
- to all.
456
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:47.440
- That's a bad paraphrase, but I'm sure you
457
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.045
- probably are familiar with this. Mhmm. Then he
458
00:17:50.045 --> 00:17:51.424
- rolls up the scroll
459
00:17:51.805 --> 00:17:53.184
- and hands it back
460
00:17:53.484 --> 00:17:54.865
- and he sits down.
461
00:17:56.444 --> 00:17:58.464
- In that time and place,
462
00:17:59.565 --> 00:18:00.065
- Jesus
463
00:18:00.365 --> 00:18:00.865
- omitted
464
00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:03.200
- the second half
465
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:04.960
- of the last verse.
466
00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.160
- Oh.
467
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:09.839
- Which is, and the day of God's vengeance.
468
00:18:10.220 --> 00:18:10.720
- Uh-huh.
469
00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:12.079
- Yeah.
470
00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:15.954
- Maybe that was the reason why they wanted
471
00:18:15.954 --> 00:18:18.694
- to throw him off the cliff. Mhmm. Because
472
00:18:18.835 --> 00:18:21.234
- first, he promises all the things they were
473
00:18:21.234 --> 00:18:24.355
- yearning for, all the things listed in the
474
00:18:24.355 --> 00:18:26.375
- beatitudes that you just said.
475
00:18:27.794 --> 00:18:29.974
- He was speaking to a bunch of poor,
476
00:18:30.380 --> 00:18:30.880
- downtrodden
477
00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:33.440
- people who lived in a system
478
00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:35.519
- that took every opportunity
479
00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.940
- to push them down and make them feel
480
00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:40.000
- bad. Mhmm.
481
00:18:42.634 --> 00:18:44.894
- And that... And they were all for it,
482
00:18:44.954 --> 00:18:46.815
- and they blamed it all on the Romans.
483
00:18:47.835 --> 00:18:50.494
- Mhmm. Mhmm. And so they wanted to hear
484
00:18:50.794 --> 00:18:51.294
- vengeance.
485
00:18:51.674 --> 00:18:52.174
- Mhmm.
486
00:18:52.474 --> 00:18:53.534
- And he refused
487
00:18:54.075 --> 00:18:55.134
- to preach that.
488
00:18:56.075 --> 00:18:56.575
- Yep.
489
00:18:57.034 --> 00:18:57.534
- Yep.
490
00:18:57.919 --> 00:18:58.419
- Jesus
491
00:18:58.880 --> 00:18:59.380
- never
492
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:00.980
- preached revenge.
493
00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:02.500
- Right on.
494
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.640
- And I love what you just said a
495
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.700
- few minutes ago, a habit of hate. Yeah.
496
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.960
- Jesus was not one for having any habits
497
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.980
- of hate or any vengeance. No.
498
00:19:13.484 --> 00:19:15.265
- Yes. And how about us today?
499
00:19:16.125 --> 00:19:17.025
- Oh, dear.
500
00:19:17.644 --> 00:19:19.184
- Does the book get into that?
501
00:19:20.525 --> 00:19:22.065
- It it gets into that.
502
00:19:22.845 --> 00:19:25.005
- It's basically a... Then it goes into a
503
00:19:25.005 --> 00:19:27.565
- bunch of short chapters about thou shall not
504
00:19:27.565 --> 00:19:30.200
- hate and then fill in the blank. Oh,
505
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:32.759
- okay. Tell us more. Okay. Well, let me
506
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:34.940
- open up the table of contents here,
507
00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.380
- and, this will get some people upset. Alright?
508
00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:39.579
- I just just saying.
509
00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:42.440
- Well... And that is... At the very beginning,
510
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.964
- I mentioned have an open mind, have a
511
00:19:44.964 --> 00:19:47.045
- open heart, and you're saying it with new
512
00:19:47.045 --> 00:19:49.125
- glasses. So here we go. We have new
513
00:19:49.125 --> 00:19:51.305
- glasses. See things in a new way.
514
00:19:53.845 --> 00:19:55.845
- Thou shalt not take all of this too
515
00:19:55.845 --> 00:19:56.345
- literally.
516
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:57.779
- Mhmm.
517
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.259
- Mhmm. Thou shalt not hate feminists.
518
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:02.980
- Mhmm. Thou shalt not hate gays.
519
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.099
- Thou shalt not hate people who have abortions.
520
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.119
- Thou shalt not hate illegals. Thou shalt not
521
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.180
- hate poor people.
522
00:20:12.664 --> 00:20:14.444
- Thou shalt not hate gun control.
523
00:20:15.224 --> 00:20:17.464
- Thou shalt not hate Jews, Muslims, or even
524
00:20:17.464 --> 00:20:17.964
- atheists.
525
00:20:19.065 --> 00:20:21.625
- There's a whole bunch of people not to
526
00:20:21.625 --> 00:20:22.125
- hate.
527
00:20:23.704 --> 00:20:24.204
- Jesus
528
00:20:24.904 --> 00:20:25.404
- drew
529
00:20:25.785 --> 00:20:26.684
- great crowds,
530
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:30.099
- and you never hear about a riot
531
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.079
- at one of his public events. Mhmm. What
532
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.400
- you hear about is feeding 5,000 people with
533
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.339
- a few loaves of bread and some fish.
534
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.625
- And... Okay. The feminist will love this one.
535
00:20:41.625 --> 00:20:43.964
- I love the way the Bible says it.
536
00:20:44.744 --> 00:20:47.704
- He fed 5,000 men plus some women and
537
00:20:47.704 --> 00:20:48.204
- children.
538
00:20:49.944 --> 00:20:52.285
- And that's because the words of the Bible
539
00:20:52.664 --> 00:20:55.244
- were written in a time and a culture
540
00:20:55.305 --> 00:20:56.684
- that are very different
541
00:20:57.380 --> 00:20:58.119
- from ours.
542
00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:02.679
- And the point of that story, that parable
543
00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:04.359
- about feeding 5,000,
544
00:21:05.139 --> 00:21:06.440
- is that everybody
545
00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:08.599
- was fed. Yes.
546
00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:10.359
- Everybody
547
00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:11.319
- had
548
00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:12.119
- enough.
549
00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:14.484
- Yes. Yes. And they had doggy bags to
550
00:21:14.484 --> 00:21:16.805
- go. There was enough collected at the end
551
00:21:16.805 --> 00:21:19.285
- to be shared. To be shared later, you
552
00:21:19.285 --> 00:21:20.184
- know. Yep.
553
00:21:21.125 --> 00:21:21.625
- Because
554
00:21:22.805 --> 00:21:25.464
- we live in a world of abundance
555
00:21:25.845 --> 00:21:26.904
- that god created.
556
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:29.519
- And so what
557
00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:32.299
- people use to scare you is that there's
558
00:21:32.299 --> 00:21:35.660
- not enough to go around. Mhmm. Mhmm. There's
559
00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:37.680
- not enough to go around. Mhmm.
560
00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:41.039
- And there's a church in Brookings that
561
00:21:41.365 --> 00:21:43.365
- feeds people I think three or four days
562
00:21:43.365 --> 00:21:45.924
- a week and averages somewhere between 70 and
563
00:21:45.924 --> 00:21:48.424
- a 100 people Per day. Per day
564
00:21:48.964 --> 00:21:50.984
- who show up for a free hot meal.
565
00:21:51.044 --> 00:21:52.884
- Right. And there are three or four other
566
00:21:52.884 --> 00:21:54.664
- churches who take up the other days
567
00:22:08.660 --> 00:22:09.494
- And it says, serving
568
00:22:09.974 --> 00:22:12.075
- And it says, serving people
569
00:22:12.454 --> 00:22:15.255
- in Brookings Harbor since sometime in the nineteen
570
00:22:15.255 --> 00:22:15.755
- eighties?
571
00:22:16.055 --> 00:22:17.115
- Mhmm. Mhmm.
572
00:22:18.375 --> 00:22:20.775
- I love those folks. Mhmm. They do great
573
00:22:20.775 --> 00:22:23.335
- work. Mhmm. Absolutely. I wanna put them out
574
00:22:23.335 --> 00:22:23.914
- of business.
575
00:22:24.694 --> 00:22:24.990
- Yeah.
576
00:22:25.549 --> 00:22:26.049
- Yeah.
577
00:22:26.429 --> 00:22:27.970
- Why do we need,
578
00:22:28.349 --> 00:22:29.970
- in 2026,
579
00:22:30.509 --> 00:22:33.250
- to have been feeding people who need
580
00:22:33.549 --> 00:22:35.490
- food for forty years,
581
00:22:36.190 --> 00:22:37.890
- give or take a year? Mhmm.
582
00:22:39.869 --> 00:22:41.454
- Mhmm. So what do you think about that?
583
00:22:41.454 --> 00:22:44.034
- What would be another alternative then based upon
584
00:22:44.095 --> 00:22:44.595
- your
585
00:22:44.974 --> 00:22:47.234
- your information, the book, your heart?
586
00:22:48.734 --> 00:22:50.595
- Well, I wanna start with the book
587
00:22:53.134 --> 00:22:54.755
- because when we bring ourselves
588
00:22:55.454 --> 00:22:56.274
- to the Bible,
589
00:22:57.110 --> 00:22:58.490
- you bring your whole self.
590
00:22:59.269 --> 00:23:01.210
- Your experiences, your history,
591
00:23:02.789 --> 00:23:03.289
- whatever
592
00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:07.370
- you can muster, you give it all.
593
00:23:07.990 --> 00:23:09.930
- And when you do that, you open yourself
594
00:23:09.990 --> 00:23:10.490
- up.
595
00:23:12.285 --> 00:23:13.424
- I'm not a politician.
596
00:23:14.525 --> 00:23:16.605
- I'm a theologian. I study God and how
597
00:23:16.605 --> 00:23:19.244
- that relates to the way I live, you
598
00:23:19.244 --> 00:23:21.965
- live, we all live together. Mhmm. So I
599
00:23:21.965 --> 00:23:24.625
- don't have a practical solution to ending hunger.
600
00:23:25.005 --> 00:23:25.744
- Sorry, folks.
601
00:23:28.789 --> 00:23:30.549
- What I do have is a heart that
602
00:23:30.549 --> 00:23:32.250
- says, we can do better.
603
00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:33.049
- Yes.
604
00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:35.210
- Yes. And a heart that says,
605
00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:39.930
- don't kick anybody out. Right.
606
00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:42.170
- Right. There are people
607
00:23:43.045 --> 00:23:45.365
- who live differently than than... I've been to
608
00:23:45.365 --> 00:23:46.265
- Joni's house
609
00:23:46.644 --> 00:23:49.224
- than Joni and I live. We live differently.
610
00:23:50.085 --> 00:23:51.865
- There are people who prefer...
611
00:23:52.244 --> 00:23:53.384
- There are people who
612
00:23:53.845 --> 00:23:54.664
- who live
613
00:23:55.045 --> 00:23:55.545
- unsheltered.
614
00:23:56.565 --> 00:23:58.184
- There are people who live
615
00:23:59.029 --> 00:24:01.269
- with deep pain that maybe they don't even
616
00:24:01.269 --> 00:24:03.529
- know where it comes from and they use,
617
00:24:05.829 --> 00:24:08.089
- they just can't live an organized
618
00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:11.450
- systematic life. I was early for this appointment.
619
00:24:12.069 --> 00:24:12.569
- Right.
620
00:24:12.950 --> 00:24:13.450
- Right.
621
00:24:14.884 --> 00:24:16.484
- So so I know we're gonna wind down
622
00:24:16.484 --> 00:24:19.384
- here, Jen. Yeah. Any total final comments
623
00:24:20.164 --> 00:24:22.005
- from your heart or from the book? And
624
00:24:22.005 --> 00:24:23.845
- re... Please repeat the title and the author
625
00:24:23.845 --> 00:24:25.204
- of that so people can get a hold
626
00:24:25.204 --> 00:24:26.345
- of that. Separation
627
00:24:26.644 --> 00:24:28.345
- of Church and Hate.
628
00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:33.000
- Okay. That's the title of the book. Great.
629
00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:35.240
- And your last comments from your heart?
630
00:24:36.419 --> 00:24:37.160
- Be kind.
631
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:38.839
- Be generous.
632
00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:44.839
- Be aware that god's love surrounds you
633
00:24:45.355 --> 00:24:46.174
- every minute
634
00:24:46.714 --> 00:24:47.694
- of every day.
635
00:24:49.914 --> 00:24:50.894
- And if I...
636
00:24:52.394 --> 00:24:53.774
- Be not afraid.
637
00:24:54.714 --> 00:24:55.615
- There are people
638
00:24:56.154 --> 00:24:56.894
- in power
639
00:24:57.450 --> 00:24:59.390
- who want us to be afraid.
640
00:25:01.210 --> 00:25:02.349
- Giving up fear
641
00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:03.789
- and grabbing
642
00:25:04.569 --> 00:25:05.069
- hope
643
00:25:05.849 --> 00:25:07.309
- is a way of resisting
644
00:25:08.089 --> 00:25:08.589
- evil.
645
00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:11.869
- Be not afraid.
646
00:25:13.234 --> 00:25:17.075
- Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful. I am with you 1,001
647
00:25:17.075 --> 00:25:19.234
- gazillion percent on that. And I hope you
648
00:25:19.234 --> 00:25:20.994
- are too listeners. And if not, we have
649
00:25:20.994 --> 00:25:22.434
- a... We have some work to do. We
650
00:25:22.434 --> 00:25:24.034
- have a message to get across. We have
651
00:25:24.034 --> 00:25:26.194
- a way to live with abundance and that
652
00:25:26.194 --> 00:25:26.694
- love.
653
00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:31.529
- Yes. So thank you so much, Jim, for
654
00:25:31.529 --> 00:25:33.929
- your for your your input today, for your
655
00:25:33.929 --> 00:25:34.829
- your theological
656
00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:37.849
- perspective. I just love that. And it gives
657
00:25:37.849 --> 00:25:40.009
- the readers... The listeners a chance to read
658
00:25:40.009 --> 00:25:42.375
- a book that you find very, very incredible.
659
00:25:42.375 --> 00:25:44.534
- So thank you. Oh, listeners, we wanna thank
660
00:25:44.534 --> 00:25:46.615
- you for joining us today, those on the
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- Southern Oregon Coast, the Northern California Coast, and
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- over in the Rogue Valley area for being
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- with us in a joyously free manner. We
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- hope you've been inspired and challenged by Jim
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- today. The stories, the tips, the wearing of
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- new glasses, the abundance of love, the getting
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- rid of a habit of hate, of choosing
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- how you really want to live better and
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- better for all of us. Wowser, just fantastic.
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- Thank you, Jim, from the top of my
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- heart. But my whole heart. Thank you so
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- much, Jim. Thank you. We wanna thank the
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- the team, Michael Gorse, as well as KCAW.
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- My... Michael Gorse combos at Candice and Rose
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- to make sure that everybody is thanked and
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- honored for what they contribute and do. Give
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- Steve Van Cleave, Doris West to be Sally
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- and Todd Roy our sponsors for making this
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- happen. And we're gonna end the show as
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- we always do, and I think it ties
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- in with Jim's thing.
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- Smile big, wear bright colors.
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- And a last comment from Jim is
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- This day has never been lived, so let's
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- live it good. Woo hoo. Thank you, Jim.
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- You're the best. You're the best.
