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Cultivated marketer, episode 40.
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The five Cs of branding
with Kim Derek Rose Deba.
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In this episode of Cultivated Marketer,
you'll wanna see why it would make sense
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for us to talk to someone who's an expert
in branding, but has two first names.
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If you're curious.
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On how that could make sense at all.
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You'll want to check out this episode.
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No, seriously, we talk with an expert
in branding and delve into the even more
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creative side of life with our guest.
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All right, Matt, so we are without
Julie, and I know she, she would've
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loved to have been a part of this
conversation with, with Derek Rose
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Deba, also known on the fiction side
of things, folks, as Kim Rose Deba.
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You're gonna hit a just fair warning.
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You're gonna hear us alternate
between Kim and Derek and the, there's
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not split personality there he is.
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He's got a pseudonym.
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But we had a great time talking
with, with Derek and I think.
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I just really resonated with this
notion of a lot of the things he shared.
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And going back to our focus, you and
I kept drawing this thing back into
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this focus of professional development.
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Even though ostensibly we got into this
conversation talking about corporate
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branding, I kept overlaying it and he has
a great story about Oprah Winfrey, right?
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He, I kept overlaying it with this
whole notion of personal branding
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and how his five Cs could apply to.
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To personal branding and particularly
the last one, which he talked about
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being so important, but, so maybe a
little, a little bit harder to execute
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as this or people to wrap their arms
around as this notion of consistency.
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Yeah, I agree and, and you know
what I really like about it?
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I've known Derek, you'll hear about
this in the episode a long time.
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We.
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Worked together on the IBC board
and I just think the world of
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him, he's such a super smart guy.
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And, and just a quick plug.
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I know Brent, we have a lot of
listeners in the Kansas City area.
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Mm-hmm.
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Uh, it's been announced that
Derek is gonna be the keynote
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speaker at Business Communicator
Summit coming up end of February.
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We'll talk more about that
as it gets closer, but.
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So if you're in the KC area, this
will be a great episode to listen to.
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'cause you know, Derek will have a
lot more to offer when he comes in
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for BCS, but what I like about him is,
yeah, I mean, he's definitely a brand
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expert, you know, corporate guy worked
for, I think Bayer for something like
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25 years leading marketing teams and
about his experience as you can get
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of any of our guests in that area.
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But he explains branding in
a very understandable way.
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Right?
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So it's like.
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I could, I could bring him in to
teach my, my class of college students
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and they would get a lot out of it
because, and he, as he says, you know,
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we try to make branding too complex
all the time, but in reality it does
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resonate with people on so many levels.
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The personal you mentioned, and of course
with our organizations and just the way
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he cues it up, the way he talks about it.
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The Five Cs are a great, I think,
convention as we as, as marketers.
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Kinda keep coming back to that.
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You know, these are all things
that I think make him a, an
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exceptional expert in this space.
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And was so glad we were, we were able
to, to have him come on the air and, and,
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and he see, you know, like a lot of our
older, I know Brent, this resonated with
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you, kind of a bit of reinvention now,
a little bit later in his career, right.
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To doing, gonna be doing
some picture writing.
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Yeah, doing some fiction writing
and is gonna come out with a book
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here in a couple months that we'll
end up, we'll end up featuring.
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I'll make sure I don't lose sight of that.
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In fact, our, our company newsletter is
actually, we did a holiday gift guide.
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If I would've included that in this.
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If the book had been ready, I
would've made sure it was included
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in the holiday gift guide.
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'cause we've done some work for authors.
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Getting it, whether it be an audio book or
help them build websites for their books.
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So yeah, I, that, that part did
personally resonated with me for sure.
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I think the other, the other part that
resonated with me and you, you talked
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about the complexity of branding.
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Going back to your, your thoughts around
the complexity of branding, how many.
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Different definitions.
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Did he say, oh God, he had his own
definition of branding, but it was
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like 37 different definitions of brand?
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Yes.
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I,
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I've seen there's dozens, right?
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There's dozens of definitions and so it's
no wonder that particularly young pros
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and students can get confused because
it, it's just, we've, it's one of those
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where we've, we've just ratcheted the, the
up to complexity to such a degree that.
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You know, gosh, if you're, if you're
new in the field or something, I can
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see why anybody would be confused.
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But he does a great job of, of
really bringing it back and, and, and
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keeping it at an understandable level.
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Yeah, the, the five Cs I thought
was a great convention and,
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and the way he outlined it.
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And so folks, whether you get it here
as part of the podcast, we'll we'll
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have a preview here in the podcast.
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And again, as Matt mentioned, if you're in
the Kansas City area, it's February 26th.
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26th, I think.
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Yeah, February 26th.
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Look at that.
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February 26th and 2026.
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Yeah.
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K-C-I-A-B-C.
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And even if you're outside the region
and you're near Kansas City, come on in.
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It's a great time.
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And Derek will be one
of the keynote speakers.
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I think there are a couple keynote
speakers and we might have another
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guest that might be a keynote speaker,
but I'm not gonna say anything 'cause
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I don't wanna step in it and I'm
really good at stepping in things.
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So, but I hope you enjoy our conversation
with Derek Rose Deba, or if you're
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appealing to the fiction side of
things, search Kim Rose Deba and you'll
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find his book it's Balance of Evil.
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Is the book that's gonna
be coming out in March.
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So with that check out and listen to our
conversation here with Derek Rose Deba.
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Welcome to Cultivated Marketer, where we
talk marketing professional development,
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so your Garden of Opportunity grows.
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This is Brent Bowen.
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I'm Matt Tidwell.
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Julie Maison is off on assignments
for this episode, unfortunately,
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I think she's completing her last
class of the semester right now.
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So all the best wishes to Julie.
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I know she's missing us and missing
the conversation, but Julie's off
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doing yeoman's work teaching the.
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Teaching the best and brightest of
the, the future on comms and marketing.
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So Julie, we'll catch you on the next one.
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We're so excited to have
our guest with us today.
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I'm dually excited to, to have
our guest today, and we'll explain
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that duality here in a minute.
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Uh, it will.
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Become apparent, but our guest has
empowered global corporations in
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strategic planning, advertising,
public relations, and corporate
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communications for three decades.
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He is a proven expert in
building iconic Fortune 500
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brands that span all industries.
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His nonfiction book, branding
Queens introduced the.
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Five Cs of branding and this is where
we dip into the duality a little bit.
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And he's now entering the
notorious world of fiction with
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his debut novel Balance of Evil.
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Kim Derek Rose Debo, welcome to the show.
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We, we will alter, if we're
talking fiction, I think we
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established, we'll call you Kim.
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If we're talking corporate branding,
we'll call you Derrick, 'cause
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most people that are probably
listening to this will probably
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call you Derrick through the show.
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But we're excited Avi, on this show.
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Whatever.
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Whatever we call you.
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We're so thrilled to have you on.
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Thank you.
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I'm, I'm
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excited to be here too.
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Yeah, this is really great, Derek.
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It's a real treat for me to get
to reconnect with you, and I'll
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just let our listeners know that,
that Derek and I have a, a bit, a
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bit of a history, a bit of a past.
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We spent some time together
on the International Board
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of directors for IABC at.
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It's sort of a difficult
time as I recall it now.
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We only had just a global pandemic
and just a couple of other things
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that impacted organizations like IABC.
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So he and I, he and I have been
in, in some battles together.
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And, and Derek, it's
great to see you again.
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And thanks so much for being on the show.
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It's just been so great to kind of
keep up from afar with all of your
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cums and goings and, and we had a
similar background both working in.
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Corporate pharmaceuticals.
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I know that was our group pharma
companies, I should say, for a long time.
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And, and so it's just great to
to to catch up with you and maybe
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that's a good place to start.
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You know, you really had some interesting
experiences in, in your lifetime, and
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I knew about some of them, but not all.
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So this will be enlightening for me too.
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But I know that, gosh, you, you, a young
person, you traveled Europe on $10 a day,
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you had a stint carrying an Olympic torch.
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And you've obviously done
your corporate career, you've
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mentored young professionals.
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Tell us a little about your journey,
and particularly this, this latest
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chapter where you've now, you know,
decided to share your knowledge in
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a really profound way as an author.
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How is that?
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Was, was that on your Bingo card initially
or did that just kind of come up or, or
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help us understand that.
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So I don't think life
goes on a straight line.
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You're right.
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E
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everything.
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You know, you just fall
into certain things.
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So I've stepped away from my, my
day job recently, and I started
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writing, actually just doing COVID.
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I started actually my writing
career, which I never had planned.
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If you had gone, asked me if you had
met me, actually when I was a student,
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English was probably my worst subject.
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I remember one teacher actually
taking me aside and saying, is
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this, is this your second language?
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No, it was my first language.
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So it's taken me all of this to find
my new self, but I'm taking with me
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all my experiences of advertising
and branding and communications and
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marketing, and I'm sharing it because
I've got over 30 years in my head.
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That's all in, in there.
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I got.
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Get it out.
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I gotta get it out.
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So, so, you know, writing
is a way of doing that.
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And then I've, as Brent mentioned
earlier, I am now sort of toying with
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the direct toying, actually, I wrote
my first manuscript, which is right now
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with my editor of my first thriller.
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So yeah, you, you don't plan, I, I,
I don't think you plan your life.
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You do.
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I started as a, as a,
a major in economics.
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That showed you how much I was planning to
become, you know, a communication person.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think that's great too, because I was
just, I was just a conversation with
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a colleague the other day about what
we were talking about a young student
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who's a kind of a bright, shining star.
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And, you know, advice to give
young people who wanna be in,
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in marketing communications.
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And part of it is just, you know,
do don't feel like you're gonna
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be on a straight linear path.
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Do step out of your comfort zone,
do look for different things.
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And I think that obviously that's
a lesson for all of us at any
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age, as you're a great example of.
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But yeah, I'm so glad you brought
that up because I think people,
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particularly young pros that I deal with.
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You know, they've got this ideal of what
the, what the trajectory should be and how
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it's all gonna end up at the, at the end,
and oftentimes different things intervene.
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So that, that's, that's great.
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I love it.
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Yeah.
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So just on that, I worked for Ogilvy
for many years, uh, I think seventh
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largest advertising agency in the world.
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We were the training ground for
a lot of new people coming in.
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And so I would do these sort
of exploratory interviews
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with university students.
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You know, those that are starting to
think about, you know, their careers.
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And they would come in and they'd
go, okay, what should I take?
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You know, what's, what's the
best courses I should take?
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And I'm going, I don't know.
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Take whatever you really want to take
and everything you're passionate about,
235
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because to do communications, it's not
buddy discipline, it's about life and
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it's really understanding other people.
237
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So I always, all these kids come in and
go, oh, you know, what should I what?
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You know, here's my course plan,
is this, how does this look?
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00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:50,160
And I go, I don't know, just live life.
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Great advice.
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00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:53,220
Yeah, that's great advice.
242
00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:57,900
And it's interesting, as you were
talking about unpacking 30 years and
243
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then then also experiencing life.
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A lot of that coalesced into
your book, branding Queens.
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00:12:06,180 --> 00:12:08,640
Then also the five Cs of branding.
246
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,650
Help us understand a little bit about
the, the, the five Cs and then, and
247
00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:17,970
also this probably applies to your,
your new life too, because we were
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00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:21,630
just, before we got on air, you were
talking about how now you're a bit of an
249
00:12:21,630 --> 00:12:27,030
entrepreneur, so how, how did the five
Cs work and then how can entrepreneurs
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00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:29,100
like your writing self Kim, apply those?
251
00:12:30,135 --> 00:12:30,765
Yeah, no.
252
00:12:31,245 --> 00:12:32,865
So thanks for asking brand.
253
00:12:32,925 --> 00:12:38,655
But the five Cs were really just sort of
buckets for me to, to understand a brand.
254
00:12:38,685 --> 00:12:41,775
'cause a brand is complex.
255
00:12:42,405 --> 00:12:47,805
There's a website that has 37 different
definitions of what a brand is.
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00:12:48,630 --> 00:12:54,120
So if you've got 37 different
definitions, you know, what really is it?
257
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,650
So it's really complex.
258
00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,480
I, I'm gonna start with just giving
you my definition of what a brand
259
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,570
is because I think it's important
to understand where I'm coming from
260
00:13:03,570 --> 00:13:04,980
and then I'll get into the five Cs.
261
00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:07,350
And, and mine is really simple.
262
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A brand is not what you do or say, but
it's how you make your customers feel.
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00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,385
'cause at the end of the day,
that's what you're leaving with.
264
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,160
There's a product, there's a service.
265
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You know, they use it, they do whatever
they would have to with it, but
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it's that feeling that's left behind
and, and the five Cs, which is quite
267
00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:31,940
quickly, you know, it's commitment.
268
00:13:32,290 --> 00:13:37,240
Construct community
content and consistency.
269
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And so I, I'll start with the
first one, which is the commitment.
270
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You know, this is your why.
271
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This is your purpose.
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This is your vision of
what your brand stands for.
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00:13:47,530 --> 00:13:51,760
Now, when you start building a
brand, this is probably the hardest.
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Because you really don't
know what your purpose is.
275
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You know what you're trying to do.
276
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A good example is, is Estee Lauder,
the the, she's in the book branding
277
00:14:04,095 --> 00:14:09,525
Queens, and she started off by
saying that she had jars of hope so
278
00:14:09,525 --> 00:14:13,485
it wasn't cold cream or you know,
some sort of cream that's in a jar.
279
00:14:13,995 --> 00:14:17,775
It was a jar of hope, and
so that was her purpose.
280
00:14:18,135 --> 00:14:20,445
Now, most don't start that way.
281
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They start with the cream.
282
00:14:22,620 --> 00:14:26,820
It's it, and you're trying to make
the best cream ever because you
283
00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:31,770
have to today in this world, you
know, that's, that's baseline is,
284
00:14:31,770 --> 00:14:33,060
is the quality of the product.
285
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,280
So that's your commitment.
286
00:14:35,550 --> 00:14:36,780
The next one, construct.
287
00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:40,800
This is the one probably we, we
all sort of start with, which is,
288
00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:42,360
what does the brand look like?
289
00:14:42,810 --> 00:14:43,890
What does it feel like?
290
00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:46,500
What's its personality,
what's its identity?
291
00:14:47,055 --> 00:14:49,665
That's the logo, the color, you know?
292
00:14:49,965 --> 00:14:51,405
But do you go beyond that?
293
00:14:51,615 --> 00:14:56,205
Probably most when you first start,
you're not thinking of a personality,
294
00:14:56,835 --> 00:14:58,095
but it's important that you do.
295
00:14:58,665 --> 00:14:59,925
So that's the second one.
296
00:14:59,925 --> 00:15:01,755
The third one is your community.
297
00:15:01,755 --> 00:15:05,175
And a lot of people said, well, oh, I
thought it was gonna be your customer.
298
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That's your C for a customer.
299
00:15:06,795 --> 00:15:10,305
And I go, yeah, but it's
bigger than just a customer.
300
00:15:10,875 --> 00:15:12,195
Because you've got your employees.
301
00:15:12,195 --> 00:15:15,225
Your employees are just as important
as your customers, particularly at
302
00:15:15,225 --> 00:15:19,785
the beginning, actually at all times,
because they represent your brand.
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00:15:20,205 --> 00:15:24,345
They can be your influencers, they can
be your, you know, ambassadors out there.
304
00:15:25,125 --> 00:15:27,255
So that's the community aspect.
305
00:15:27,795 --> 00:15:29,355
And then the next one is content.
306
00:15:29,355 --> 00:15:32,324
And this is sort of again,
the marketing world.
307
00:15:32,505 --> 00:15:37,875
This is all your communications, but
beyond just marketing, there are other
308
00:15:37,875 --> 00:15:39,944
really powerful things you can do.
309
00:15:40,275 --> 00:15:44,834
And we're seeing this now with, with,
with technology and with with social media
310
00:15:44,834 --> 00:15:50,444
and, and you know, the importance of,
of public relations when you start out.
311
00:15:51,074 --> 00:15:53,475
Like I am building my brand.
312
00:15:53,805 --> 00:16:00,225
You have no money to buy advertising,
so you rely on public relations.
313
00:16:00,464 --> 00:16:01,725
That word of mouth, things like this.
314
00:16:01,725 --> 00:16:02,505
That word of mouth.
315
00:16:02,505 --> 00:16:03,260
Word of mouth.
316
00:16:03,555 --> 00:16:06,015
This is, that's what I was thinking about.
317
00:16:06,015 --> 00:16:10,755
Word of mouth, word of social
is today, but hugely important.
318
00:16:10,755 --> 00:16:10,765
Mm-hmm.
319
00:16:11,850 --> 00:16:15,660
Now that I know you're, you're dipping
into that entrepreneurial world.
320
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:19,710
It, my wife and I, two days ago, were
in a Barnes and Noble and we're in
321
00:16:19,710 --> 00:16:24,480
the thriller section, and she's a big
thriller reader and a young, young man,
322
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,120
probably about my son's age, 24, 25.
323
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,170
So I'm interested in getting thrillers
and she handed him one book and
324
00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:32,850
said, this is where you start.
325
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:36,860
Prepared to be disappointed from here
on out after reading this book though,
326
00:16:40,250 --> 00:16:43,850
because she goes, this is by far and
away in 15 years of reading thrillers.
327
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:45,230
This is the best one I've read.
328
00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:48,110
So, which you leads into
329
00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:54,290
my last C, which is consistency,
because if you can't repeat it over
330
00:16:54,290 --> 00:16:56,720
and over, then it won't be a brand.
331
00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:57,200
Mm-hmm.
332
00:16:58,310 --> 00:17:00,050
And that's the hardest one.
333
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,640
And funny, when I did, I look back
at, I used to write a, a, um, blog
334
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,339
and that came sort of the, the
foundation for my second book of omics.
335
00:17:11,790 --> 00:17:15,270
And when I started looking at all the
topics that I had been writing about
336
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:18,960
as it concerned sort of the five Cs,
and I was putting, you know, different
337
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,940
topics within the, the, the five
buckets, the consistency one was empty
338
00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:26,310
and the reason it was empty, it is.
339
00:17:26,714 --> 00:17:31,365
It is so rules, regulations, guidelines.
340
00:17:31,725 --> 00:17:36,705
It's about, you know, innovation,
which is really important, but how do
341
00:17:36,705 --> 00:17:40,575
you get to that innovation to continue
to move your product forward, move
342
00:17:40,575 --> 00:17:42,525
your, your, your business forward?
343
00:17:43,305 --> 00:17:46,215
And it's that feedback component as well.
344
00:17:46,215 --> 00:17:49,725
So that last one becomes hugely important.
345
00:17:49,725 --> 00:17:53,685
I know OO Pro Winfrey continually
said, I am not a brand.
346
00:17:54,825 --> 00:17:59,595
Until one day she found out that a
brand is something that's consistent.
347
00:18:00,195 --> 00:18:05,955
And then her, she admitted I'm a brand
'cause I am absolutely consistent
348
00:18:05,955 --> 00:18:09,975
in, in my goals of what I'm trying
to do with my target audience
349
00:18:10,305 --> 00:18:11,655
and what I'm trying to achieve.
350
00:18:12,075 --> 00:18:14,925
And so she admitted that she was a brand.
351
00:18:15,405 --> 00:18:17,685
Understanding that consistency
was really important.
352
00:18:18,015 --> 00:18:18,375
Yeah.
353
00:18:18,794 --> 00:18:19,514
That's great.
354
00:18:19,814 --> 00:18:22,605
You know, a couple things come to mind
just maybe to brag on our guest a little
355
00:18:22,605 --> 00:18:25,485
bit here, Brent, but Mackenzie and I did
serve together on a board for a while.
356
00:18:25,814 --> 00:18:28,425
You know how there's always that one
person on the board who served the
357
00:18:28,425 --> 00:18:32,084
con, really sort of the, the angel
on the shoulder kind of reminding
358
00:18:32,235 --> 00:18:33,915
Derek really played that role for us.
359
00:18:33,915 --> 00:18:35,834
And, and it was in a
tough, tough time, right?
360
00:18:35,834 --> 00:18:38,235
Because it's pandemic and here we
are, the school board organization.
361
00:18:38,595 --> 00:18:41,294
But he kept, you know, I, I love
working with Derek because he
362
00:18:41,294 --> 00:18:42,554
would always bring us back to.
363
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:43,530
Are we sticking?
364
00:18:43,535 --> 00:18:44,340
Are, are we committed?
365
00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:47,460
Are, are, are we living that first seed,
the most important one, the commitment
366
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:49,290
when or are we getting off track, right.
367
00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:50,460
With the bright, shiny thing.
368
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:53,370
And, and that was easy to do in
a period like that because Right.
369
00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:55,620
I mean, everybody's just trying
to struggle to figure out
370
00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:58,080
what's gonna work and instead of
staying close to our knitting.
371
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,320
And, and so Derek, he now, he, you,
now he talks to talk and his books and
372
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:02,700
in other places who watch the walk.
373
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:03,210
I've seen it.
374
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:05,430
So, and you know, the other
thing that comes to mind is I'm
375
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:07,170
just watching for the other day.
376
00:19:07,564 --> 00:19:10,625
A series of five presentations from
brand new startup entrepreneurs, Brent.
377
00:19:10,625 --> 00:19:12,185
So you're familiar with
like 1 million Comp?
378
00:19:12,274 --> 00:19:12,395
Mm-hmm.
379
00:19:12,635 --> 00:19:12,875
Oh yeah.
380
00:19:12,875 --> 00:19:14,435
Coffman Foundation like that.
381
00:19:14,764 --> 00:19:17,225
And what was struck, 'cause I was
looking at 'em for class ideas.
382
00:19:17,225 --> 00:19:20,345
'cause entrepreneurs, every one of 'em,
these are early stage entrepreneurs,
383
00:19:20,645 --> 00:19:24,695
they, instead of starting with
the jar of Hope, they, they were
384
00:19:24,695 --> 00:19:27,730
immediately going, the cream, here's
what we're gonna sell you here.
385
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:30,245
And, and it just struck me, you know,
they had their little four minute
386
00:19:30,245 --> 00:19:34,054
elevator pitch that all entrepreneurs
do and there was no why there, there
387
00:19:34,054 --> 00:19:36,125
was no, it was, it was literally just.
388
00:19:36,510 --> 00:19:38,790
You know, here's the new
widget, here's the new app.
389
00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:41,160
And Brent, you and I have heard
these pitches all the time.
390
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,230
You just sit there and shake
your head and go, what?
391
00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:47,250
What's really behind that from a, you
know, kind of some, um, philosophy
392
00:19:47,250 --> 00:19:49,015
standpoint or just a vision standpoint?
393
00:19:49,075 --> 00:19:49,775
We see.
394
00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:51,660
So, so go ahead and brought that up.
395
00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:53,100
Hey Derek, I wanna ask
you another thing though.
396
00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:54,360
'cause you worked among branching.
397
00:19:54,765 --> 00:19:57,795
You know, you know, as I say, not
only on the nonprofit side and from
398
00:19:57,795 --> 00:20:00,915
a volunteer perspective, but also in
in large corporations and agencies.
399
00:20:01,365 --> 00:20:05,685
Can you share a success story maybe from
your own past of, you know, you felt
400
00:20:05,685 --> 00:20:10,335
really good about kind of transforming a
company's brand identity or really leading
401
00:20:10,335 --> 00:20:13,875
them to a new place brand wise, that,
that, that really made sense for them.
402
00:20:14,625 --> 00:20:16,004
Any war stories come to mind there?
403
00:20:16,395 --> 00:20:22,545
So I was interested in this, this
question because my first reaction is why?
404
00:20:22,575 --> 00:20:24,075
Why do you want to change?
405
00:20:24,764 --> 00:20:29,805
You have to have a very, very good
reason to change anything because
406
00:20:29,805 --> 00:20:31,545
your brand is owned by your customer.
407
00:20:32,264 --> 00:20:35,895
So you tinkering with it
can have consequences.
408
00:20:36,465 --> 00:20:37,064
To the brand.
409
00:20:37,185 --> 00:20:39,524
I'll use Jaguar for an example.
410
00:20:40,215 --> 00:20:44,895
Recently, you know, they, they
got this new agency and they.
411
00:20:45,645 --> 00:20:46,905
Changed everything.
412
00:20:47,055 --> 00:20:47,685
Everything.
413
00:20:47,685 --> 00:20:51,615
The logo, the color palette, the design.
414
00:20:51,615 --> 00:20:54,795
They had these strange people
and we know the outcome of that.
415
00:20:54,795 --> 00:20:59,325
That was a, that was a, I mean, from
a PR perspective, I would not have
416
00:20:59,325 --> 00:21:01,155
wanted been their communication person.
417
00:21:01,845 --> 00:21:08,175
So recently you probably, I've, I've
worked on several, but the consumer.
418
00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:09,180
Saw nothing.
419
00:21:09,630 --> 00:21:10,950
Things had changed.
420
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,190
You know, the color,
color palette had shifted.
421
00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:19,230
Maybe the logo, you know, some cases
what, what happens in a lot of cases,
422
00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:23,550
what's happening today is they're
adjusting to the new, new formats
423
00:21:23,550 --> 00:21:25,290
of how it's being communicated.
424
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:31,710
I mean, we're gonna see more,
I think we will see more actual
425
00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:34,665
video of logos than we will see.
426
00:21:35,535 --> 00:21:41,325
Static logos because we're going
into a world which is visual and
427
00:21:41,325 --> 00:21:48,795
video is King TikTok, you know, you
now have the ability, like any film,
428
00:21:48,795 --> 00:21:52,185
produce, production company, film
production companies, were the first
429
00:21:52,185 --> 00:21:56,355
to actually, you know, show you a
logo that you know is building and
430
00:21:56,625 --> 00:22:01,365
you know, and it's got lots of music
and it has, and they're still iconic.
431
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,490
You know, some of these paramount, you
know, for example, what's stopping that
432
00:22:06,490 --> 00:22:08,530
from any other brand to do that today?
433
00:22:08,770 --> 00:22:13,660
Nothing because you have the ability
to actually showcase it, probably
434
00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:15,670
more so than you do in print.
435
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:21,010
Print is, you know, passe and I, you
know, how often do you see something
436
00:22:21,010 --> 00:22:22,720
that's just sitting, doing nothing?
437
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:30,370
So, you know, I, I go back to, to your,
to the question is a successful rebrand.
438
00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:38,370
One that you didn't notice because the
customer hasn't had a jolt, the customer
439
00:22:38,370 --> 00:22:44,400
hasn't been misaligned or taken down
a road that they don't want to go.
440
00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,840
You know, and other examples of
that, however, there are situations
441
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,310
where, you know, you buy out
another brand and there has to be
442
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:55,260
some sort of an adjustment there.
443
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,210
But again, it's very delicate.
444
00:22:57,854 --> 00:22:59,354
How you're going to do that.
445
00:22:59,715 --> 00:23:03,074
Generally what you try to do is
keep the two brands separate.
446
00:23:03,584 --> 00:23:06,074
You know, a good example
is Kraft and Heinz.
447
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,290
You know, Kraft bought out Heinz,
and, and now that I think they're
448
00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:15,659
splitting it off again into, to a couple
different, but changing dramatically.
449
00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:22,139
Some have to, if it's been a, you know,
a brand that has been not doing well or
450
00:23:22,169 --> 00:23:25,590
maybe have some negative connotations
to it, you may change the name again,
451
00:23:26,459 --> 00:23:30,629
from a, from a worked with one, which
was a telecom here in in Canada.
452
00:23:31,695 --> 00:23:36,585
And it was a government operated
organization, so they had the
453
00:23:36,585 --> 00:23:39,075
opportunity to brand from ground zero.
454
00:23:39,495 --> 00:23:41,475
And so we worked with them to, to do that.
455
00:23:41,475 --> 00:23:45,825
That was easy though, because there
was no real association to the, it was
456
00:23:45,825 --> 00:23:50,385
a, you know, it was the Alberta, you
know, telecom co, you know, anyways, it
457
00:23:50,385 --> 00:23:53,355
had had no real affinity personality.
458
00:23:53,355 --> 00:23:55,514
Yeah, no, because it was forced on people.
459
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:59,490
Now it was, you know, a brand
that you had to actually build a
460
00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:02,399
customer base and reward customers.
461
00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:07,470
And one of the things they did over
time is they bought out a small
462
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:11,280
tel, actually a mobile company, I
think it was Clear, clear mobile or
463
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,210
something, and they had this incredible.
464
00:24:15,535 --> 00:24:22,705
Marketing campaign and they used animals
and they used flowers and plants.
465
00:24:22,945 --> 00:24:28,855
Very simplistic white background,
and their brand was bigger than
466
00:24:28,855 --> 00:24:30,625
their market that they had.
467
00:24:31,285 --> 00:24:33,010
So tell us smartly.
468
00:24:33,705 --> 00:24:34,665
Bought them out.
469
00:24:35,115 --> 00:24:38,655
It was a small player, and they
took that marketing campaign.
470
00:24:38,655 --> 00:24:39,524
They'd been running them.
471
00:24:39,524 --> 00:24:44,175
Same marketing campaign for paying
now for 20 years, at least 20 years.
472
00:24:44,534 --> 00:24:48,705
And to me that was a, that was a, that
was a, you know, I was not involved in
473
00:24:48,705 --> 00:24:55,635
this, but that was a, a, a point where
it was a brilliant decision by somebody.
474
00:24:56,264 --> 00:24:59,564
And then the brilliant decision
to keep it going for 20 years.
475
00:25:00,150 --> 00:25:04,125
Most brand managers, you know, start
getting, you know, itchy feet about.
476
00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:05,490
Three years.
477
00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:10,530
I go back to again, 'cause I
mentioned earlier of Estee Lauder.
478
00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:15,300
Her first campaign was with
a, with a, a model of Graham,
479
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:16,440
I'm forgotten Her first name.
480
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:16,980
First name.
481
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:19,050
Ran for 15 years.
482
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,340
Consistency.
483
00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:23,070
Again, go back to the one
that I was mentioning earlier.
484
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,720
Hugely important.
485
00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:29,370
We marketers, me communicators,
get bored of this stuff.
486
00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:30,360
We gotta change it up.
487
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,450
So, so to answer your question,
it's a long, long response.
488
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:41,100
Is I try to avoid unless there's a problem
that you're trying to fix and then trying
489
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:45,660
to do it in a way that's thoughtful
to your customer and make sure your
490
00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:47,514
customer's on board with that journey.
491
00:25:48,225 --> 00:25:49,785
With the Jaguar there.
492
00:25:49,785 --> 00:25:53,385
I don't believe there was any
customer involvement whatsoever.
493
00:25:53,745 --> 00:25:58,035
Yeah, you referenced feedback loop
earlier and so I, as you were talking
494
00:25:58,035 --> 00:26:02,805
about Jaguar, we, we, in this show in
past episodes have even talked about
495
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:07,635
something similar to Jaguar with Cracker
Barrel in the missteps around a lot of
496
00:26:07,635 --> 00:26:12,014
the rebranding associated with Cracker
Barrel and of a lot of that I don't even
497
00:26:12,014 --> 00:26:14,565
believe was associated with feedback loop.
498
00:26:14,565 --> 00:26:17,055
It was they were trying to anticipate.
499
00:26:17,355 --> 00:26:20,055
What the future consumer would look like.
500
00:26:20,205 --> 00:26:20,595
Right.
501
00:26:20,595 --> 00:26:26,805
So it's that, that, again, it just,
just helps illustrate, I think what
502
00:26:26,805 --> 00:26:30,375
you just spoke about for the last
few minutes is let's, if, unless
503
00:26:30,375 --> 00:26:32,055
it's really broken, maybe not.
504
00:26:32,055 --> 00:26:34,365
Just throw yourself into
that and create a mess.
505
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:35,220
Yeah.
506
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:36,090
Yeah.
507
00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:39,960
Which, which you talked about this
consistency and I, I, we will move back
508
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,780
into, associated to your book Omics,
and I'm interested about what inspired
509
00:26:45,780 --> 00:26:50,280
you to write that book and what some of
the key takeaways were from the book.
510
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,710
But I, this show is also about personal.
511
00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:55,680
Development, professional development.
512
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,060
And when you mentioned Oprah Winfrey,
I mean even when you were actually
513
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:04,500
providing your definition of a
brand and your definition being
514
00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:06,960
one of how you make someone feel.
515
00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:08,640
I didn't think of a company.
516
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,320
My first thought actually went to my wife.
517
00:27:11,274 --> 00:27:14,485
Like my, if you asked my wife what
her personal brand is, she would
518
00:27:14,485 --> 00:27:18,685
say, I don't have a brand, but I'm
like, oh, oh dear you, you have a
519
00:27:18,685 --> 00:27:20,665
brand and it's an excellent brand.
520
00:27:21,115 --> 00:27:24,084
'cause she makes people, she
makes people feel wonderful.
521
00:27:24,175 --> 00:27:24,504
Right.
522
00:27:24,504 --> 00:27:29,605
So, you know, if we're thinking about
corporate brand or even personal brand,
523
00:27:29,965 --> 00:27:34,735
you know, let's go back to omics a bit
and maybe what inspired you and what
524
00:27:34,735 --> 00:27:38,185
some of the key takeaways maybe for
either a corporation or an individual.
525
00:27:38,564 --> 00:27:44,445
Yeah, so it was really just taking
those 30 years that I had stuffed into
526
00:27:44,445 --> 00:27:50,175
my head and everyone talks, branding,
everyone's talking about brands.
527
00:27:50,175 --> 00:27:54,975
Brands are the most overused word
I think, currently in the world.
528
00:27:55,514 --> 00:27:59,895
Like, you know, brand this, brand that
I need this brand and it's misused.
529
00:28:00,270 --> 00:28:00,990
A great deal.
530
00:28:01,650 --> 00:28:05,160
So there is some frustration that
has been building up in me over
531
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:11,220
the time is to go, okay, I've gotta
get these 30 years on into a book.
532
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:17,910
The five Cs seems to resonate with people
because it's easy to remember and there
533
00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:20,040
are five, you know, simple buckets.
534
00:28:20,445 --> 00:28:25,695
So that when you are having to build a
brand or you are going to be a brand,
535
00:28:26,385 --> 00:28:32,564
you can navigate this complex world
and sort of look at it from, okay, from
536
00:28:32,564 --> 00:28:38,355
your customer perspective, from your,
your vision to how are you going to
537
00:28:38,355 --> 00:28:43,185
keep this thing consistent and deliver
whatever you're going to promise
538
00:28:43,185 --> 00:28:45,105
you're going to deliver continuously.
539
00:28:46,064 --> 00:28:49,935
So it was, I had it in my
head and I had to get it out.
540
00:28:49,995 --> 00:28:53,895
So I did, you know, it should have
been my first book 'cause that, you
541
00:28:53,895 --> 00:28:55,635
know, made sense to put that book out.
542
00:28:56,115 --> 00:29:00,855
In actual fact branding Queens, I
had a fair bit of it in there and
543
00:29:00,855 --> 00:29:03,225
my beta readers said, you know what?
544
00:29:03,584 --> 00:29:07,395
These stories of these 20
entrepreneurial women are fantastic.
545
00:29:07,905 --> 00:29:10,425
Can you take out all
of that branding stuff?
546
00:29:11,625 --> 00:29:11,985
So
547
00:29:12,135 --> 00:29:12,584
I did.
548
00:29:12,824 --> 00:29:13,304
I did.
549
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:14,050
Okay.
550
00:29:14,350 --> 00:29:14,830
Yes.
551
00:29:14,889 --> 00:29:16,149
Listening to our audience.
552
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:16,659
Yeah.
553
00:29:16,719 --> 00:29:19,389
You know, one thing though, I noticed
in omics, I was gonna ask you about it.
554
00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:21,939
'cause I think that that's something
that when I, I teach a branding class,
555
00:29:21,939 --> 00:29:25,449
I often talk about a similar theme
with my students, but you talk in
556
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:30,040
omics about how it's often the small
interactions with brands that inspire.
557
00:29:30,460 --> 00:29:33,160
One, to become loyal to that
brand, but can you expand maybe
558
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,030
a little bit more on that?
559
00:29:34,030 --> 00:29:34,810
What do you mean by that?
560
00:29:34,810 --> 00:29:37,840
And maybe an, an example
or, or two just Yeah.
561
00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:40,840
I'm, I'm, I don't know if I'm lucky.
562
00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:43,945
I'm sure we all have
experiences with brands that we.
563
00:29:44,909 --> 00:29:46,979
You know, it's the ones that's funny.
564
00:29:46,979 --> 00:29:51,000
It's the ones that have disappointed us
that we spend a lot of time talking about.
565
00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:53,550
You know, airlines being a
really good example of that.
566
00:29:53,550 --> 00:29:58,530
We all have a horror story of an
airline, but the good ones are
567
00:29:58,590 --> 00:30:03,615
also just as as interesting, but
they're probably no more impactful.
568
00:30:04,165 --> 00:30:06,504
For us, and it's simple things.
569
00:30:06,504 --> 00:30:10,135
You know, I, in my book, I, I
have an illustration of one of
570
00:30:10,135 --> 00:30:11,935
just going into a coffee shop.
571
00:30:12,625 --> 00:30:15,745
You know, you've had, you know,
people don't know what's going on.
572
00:30:15,745 --> 00:30:18,804
Like, you know, it's always like when
you're driving, you know, and somebody's
573
00:30:18,804 --> 00:30:20,274
racing and honking and whatever.
574
00:30:20,274 --> 00:30:21,955
You don't know what's
going on in their heads.
575
00:30:22,254 --> 00:30:24,445
What, what's their situation is.
576
00:30:24,445 --> 00:30:27,534
So, you know, give them a
little, really little room.
577
00:30:27,985 --> 00:30:30,115
You come in a coffee
shop, you're frustrated.
578
00:30:30,115 --> 00:30:30,504
You just.
579
00:30:30,715 --> 00:30:33,625
Maybe had that drive and
you get in and you're late.
580
00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:35,005
You know you're late for your meeting.
581
00:30:35,535 --> 00:30:40,785
And the barista who you see
every day sees in your face that
582
00:30:40,785 --> 00:30:42,045
you're not having a good day.
583
00:30:42,345 --> 00:30:46,875
And they acknowledge that
that's simple humanity, right?
584
00:30:47,655 --> 00:30:52,155
But it goes a long way for a brand because
it means that their people behind that.
585
00:30:52,155 --> 00:30:54,915
And that's why your employees
become extremely important.
586
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,775
If you have a brand that's, you know, got
a connection through, through salespeople,
587
00:31:00,675 --> 00:31:03,050
that person's will make that feeling.
588
00:31:03,710 --> 00:31:04,400
For the brand.
589
00:31:04,910 --> 00:31:07,910
I'll give you another
example, A situation for me.
590
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:14,000
When I opened my business account for
my publishing of my books, I went to my
591
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:20,990
local bank and the branch manager, and we
set up the account and she goes, oh, so.
592
00:31:21,399 --> 00:31:22,270
What is your business?
593
00:31:22,270 --> 00:31:25,060
And I said, well, I'm an author
and I'm publishing a book.
594
00:31:25,060 --> 00:31:26,170
And she says, what's the book about?
595
00:31:26,170 --> 00:31:27,670
And she said, are you
gonna do a launch party?
596
00:31:27,670 --> 00:31:29,530
I said, no, I'm not doing a launch party.
597
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:34,600
And a week later I get a phone call
from the branch manager of the branch,
598
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:35,950
and I go, oh, what does she want?
599
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:37,510
I go, well, does something happen?
600
00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:42,730
And she goes, you know, I've been thinking
we'd love to do a launch party for your.
601
00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:43,399
Book.
602
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:48,110
We have entrepreneurial women, we have
this, this group that we get together
603
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:49,760
with all these entrepreneurial women.
604
00:31:49,940 --> 00:31:54,050
We'd like to bring them them in and have
you maybe, you know, talk about your book.
605
00:31:54,479 --> 00:31:54,989
Wow.
606
00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:00,659
You know, this was, I tell this story all
the time to the, I go in the bank, I still
607
00:32:00,659 --> 00:32:04,350
go into the bank and occasionally there's
a new teller and I'll go in, oh, you know
608
00:32:04,350 --> 00:32:06,209
what, this is what your bank did for me.
609
00:32:06,419 --> 00:32:07,409
And they go, oh, what's your book?
610
00:32:07,409 --> 00:32:08,280
And I weigh it down.
611
00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:10,439
So hopefully I've got another book sale.
612
00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:14,850
But it's so simple thing, it generally,
it happens when something's bad.
613
00:32:14,879 --> 00:32:15,270
Right?
614
00:32:15,959 --> 00:32:18,750
You know, you all, we all have
a story where, you know, a
615
00:32:18,750 --> 00:32:20,639
brand pulled us out of trouble.
616
00:32:21,155 --> 00:32:24,935
It's that, you know, that tow truck
driver that comes out from nowhere.
617
00:32:25,205 --> 00:32:26,735
You know, it's those kinds of things.
618
00:32:26,975 --> 00:32:29,735
And those are the stories
that we word of mouth, right.
619
00:32:30,274 --> 00:32:32,675
You share and they become very powerful.
620
00:32:32,915 --> 00:32:33,064
Yeah.
621
00:32:33,064 --> 00:32:35,435
I'm so glad you mentioned employees
'cause Right, and that's where those
622
00:32:35,435 --> 00:32:38,254
micro interactions are happening
on that frontline employee.
623
00:32:38,584 --> 00:32:41,435
And so at least in so many of our
kind of day-to-day retail spaces.
624
00:32:41,435 --> 00:32:43,115
So yeah, it's both.
625
00:32:43,115 --> 00:32:43,415
Great.
626
00:32:43,415 --> 00:32:43,804
Thank you Dan.
627
00:32:45,159 --> 00:32:52,389
So I, I, Derek, I want, I want to go back
to something you said around the feedback
628
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:54,610
loop and around changing your brand.
629
00:32:54,610 --> 00:32:57,879
And as I'd mentioned prior, a
lot of what we do in this show is
630
00:32:57,879 --> 00:33:00,580
around professional development.
631
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:04,690
And as somebody that may be a little
later in their career, they may or
632
00:33:04,690 --> 00:33:09,129
may have not received that feedback
in order to, to branch off and do
633
00:33:09,129 --> 00:33:11,740
something different, try something new.
634
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,560
You know, you even s. Talked about a
little bit of the inspiration of you
635
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,960
didn't anticipate that you would want
to become a, a, a writer and an author.
636
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,490
What advice, as you've been thinking
about your career journey and, and
637
00:33:25,490 --> 00:33:29,090
some of the things that have inspired
you, what piece of advice could you
638
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:32,840
offer to those listening that might
be a little later, further along
639
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,680
in their career about reinventing
yourself or, or listening to yourself?
640
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:37,925
Listening to that little.
641
00:33:38,530 --> 00:33:42,820
That little thing on your shoulder,
that devil or angel, Matt attributed
642
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:47,260
you to you to being angelic, but maybe
even the devil a little bit around
643
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:50,679
what's, what's talking to you and, and
thinking about reinventing yourself.
644
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:52,959
Don't live by fear.
645
00:33:53,439 --> 00:33:58,990
Fear is probably the one of the strongest
motivators that we have, certainly.
646
00:33:59,804 --> 00:34:02,715
As we get older, that
fear increases, right?
647
00:34:02,715 --> 00:34:03,794
There's greater risk.
648
00:34:04,485 --> 00:34:08,264
I, I did things when I, I look
back when I was younger, you know,
649
00:34:08,264 --> 00:34:13,125
I pulled up, got married, and we
moved from Vancouver Island, which
650
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:15,105
is on the west coast to Toronto.
651
00:34:15,165 --> 00:34:15,975
No jobs.
652
00:34:16,455 --> 00:34:20,714
We had seven suitcases and
we're gonna start our careers.
653
00:34:20,955 --> 00:34:22,335
Would I do that today?
654
00:34:22,574 --> 00:34:25,514
No, I wouldn't have, I'd be seven.
655
00:34:25,514 --> 00:34:26,594
Seven trucks.
656
00:34:26,895 --> 00:34:28,125
I just recently moved.
657
00:34:28,125 --> 00:34:31,094
It's horrible, right?
658
00:34:31,545 --> 00:34:33,764
But live without fear.
659
00:34:34,574 --> 00:34:35,955
You can do small things.
660
00:34:35,955 --> 00:34:37,425
You can test things.
661
00:34:37,845 --> 00:34:41,835
You don't have to go both feet
in, you know, feet first and
662
00:34:41,835 --> 00:34:43,185
hope it's all gonna happen.
663
00:34:44,025 --> 00:34:45,735
You can test, you can do things.
664
00:34:45,765 --> 00:34:47,535
So I started my writing.
665
00:34:48,045 --> 00:34:49,185
I started a block.
666
00:34:49,425 --> 00:34:50,415
I did my block.
667
00:34:50,475 --> 00:34:54,105
I watched, saw people like Reddit.
668
00:34:54,675 --> 00:34:56,505
I saw feedback.
669
00:34:56,505 --> 00:34:57,675
I got feedback.
670
00:34:58,335 --> 00:34:59,805
So then I was able to do more.
671
00:35:00,825 --> 00:35:01,785
Branding Queens.
672
00:35:01,785 --> 00:35:05,024
When I first started it, I thought
it was gonna be a blog, and then it
673
00:35:05,024 --> 00:35:08,774
got a little bigger than a blog and I
go, okay, it could be part, it could
674
00:35:08,774 --> 00:35:11,174
be, you know, part one, part two.
675
00:35:11,565 --> 00:35:14,265
People don't read part
one, part two, and blogs.
676
00:35:14,685 --> 00:35:17,024
So I was sort of humming.
677
00:35:17,535 --> 00:35:22,245
Finally, there was a day that I thought,
okay, how many words are in a book?
678
00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:23,400
I didn't know.
679
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,200
So then I went on Googled and
found, you know, the average is for
680
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,490
a nonfiction could be everywhere
from 60,000 to 80, 90,000.
681
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:34,440
And I was at 40,000.
682
00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:39,090
I was halfway, so I didn't
know where I was going.
683
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,500
And you know, ignorance,
sometimes it's bless, but.
684
00:35:44,565 --> 00:35:44,865
I don't
685
00:35:44,865 --> 00:35:45,135
know.
686
00:35:45,135 --> 00:35:46,395
Just do it.
687
00:35:46,815 --> 00:35:47,145
Yeah.
688
00:35:47,715 --> 00:35:51,405
Or as a old colleague of mine, like
to say the, the opposite of ignorance
689
00:35:51,405 --> 00:35:55,275
is bliss is clarity doesn't always
bring comfort, so just go in and do it.
690
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:56,890
Yeah.
691
00:35:59,115 --> 00:35:59,355
Yep.
692
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,040
I love it.
693
00:36:00,310 --> 00:36:03,460
No, I love what, I love what you
were saying about watch out for fear.
694
00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:04,810
I mean, it's that plaque
on the wall, right?
695
00:36:04,810 --> 00:36:06,250
What would you do if you weren't afraid?
696
00:36:06,370 --> 00:36:09,340
You know, that, that kind of,
that, that kind of reminder for us.
697
00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:12,790
Let's switch gears though a little bit
though, and talk more about younger
698
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:15,340
to, again, professional development,
staying on the team of the show.
699
00:36:15,735 --> 00:36:18,315
Younger professionals, uh, I
know you've worked around them,
700
00:36:18,315 --> 00:36:19,755
Derek hired them, et cetera.
701
00:36:20,085 --> 00:36:22,845
And in your own career, just like,
I mean, you know, you sort of never
702
00:36:22,845 --> 00:36:25,035
met a professional development
opportunity you didn't like, right?
703
00:36:25,035 --> 00:36:27,705
I mean, we, we just are
really committed to that.
704
00:36:27,705 --> 00:36:29,775
But this is a tough time for
professional development.
705
00:36:29,835 --> 00:36:32,715
I think you and I
experienced that in IABC.
706
00:36:32,775 --> 00:36:36,585
Memberships are dropping, people aren't
committing at those younger ages.
707
00:36:36,585 --> 00:36:38,985
Like, like we just would've
thought, well, you a no brainer.
708
00:36:38,985 --> 00:36:42,765
Of course you belong to IABC or PRSA
in the states, or whatever it is.
709
00:36:42,765 --> 00:36:43,335
Whereas now.
710
00:36:43,685 --> 00:36:45,395
As you and I both know,
that is not the case.
711
00:36:45,395 --> 00:36:49,505
These, these organizations are losing,
you know, that demographic at a pretty
712
00:36:49,505 --> 00:36:51,005
large clip, or at least definitely.
713
00:36:51,005 --> 00:36:52,385
And of course the pandemic didn't help.
714
00:36:52,715 --> 00:36:53,645
So these are tough times.
715
00:36:53,825 --> 00:36:57,005
In your own words, why is it important
for professionals, especially
716
00:36:57,005 --> 00:37:02,345
younger pros, to make that kind of
investment and, and sort of bank on
717
00:37:02,345 --> 00:37:03,285
the returns they're gonna get from?
718
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:11,160
So I, I'm gonna step back to me working
on this concept of, because there's
719
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,080
so much change, and change is an easy
answer to, to your question, how do
720
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,720
you stay ahead of change when it's
happening faster and faster and faster?
721
00:37:22,770 --> 00:37:27,330
But I go back to sort of what I
call human truths, which is sort of
722
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:31,259
fundamental of how we think and act.
723
00:37:32,145 --> 00:37:37,785
To me, one of the, the fundamentals
is we starve for community and, you
724
00:37:37,785 --> 00:37:42,795
know, it's important for us to have a
community and that I think is far more
725
00:37:42,795 --> 00:37:48,525
important than just staying ahead of
if you can stay ahead of, because you
726
00:37:48,525 --> 00:37:53,115
know, if change is happening so fast,
at least if you're in a community.
727
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,990
At least you're, you're grounded.
728
00:37:54,990 --> 00:38:00,089
You've got a, you've got a support
system that is there to help you when
729
00:38:00,089 --> 00:38:04,109
you need help, as opposed to, you
know, go out there and ask ai, you
730
00:38:04,109 --> 00:38:05,759
know, what's the solution for this?
731
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,950
They'll give you a solution, but you're
not gonna have the historical context.
732
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:14,610
Attached to it to go, is it
actually gonna really work?
733
00:38:15,330 --> 00:38:16,860
Yeah, I mean, AI is really good.
734
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:18,240
I like using ai.
735
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:19,350
Tell me the answer.
736
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:25,020
But I've had 30 years of experience of,
you know, sure it looks like it works,
737
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,940
but it really actually doesn't work.
738
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:30,390
So a community I think
is really important.
739
00:38:31,050 --> 00:38:32,400
Yeah, I love the focus on community.
740
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:32,610
Brent.
741
00:38:32,610 --> 00:38:35,280
How many times on this show we talked
about, you know, it's ironic that.
742
00:38:35,415 --> 00:38:39,945
In this day and age when younger,
mid-career pros, et cetera, are
743
00:38:39,945 --> 00:38:42,285
working increasingly remotely, right.
744
00:38:42,345 --> 00:38:43,695
You know, they're not in teams.
745
00:38:43,695 --> 00:38:45,165
There is no water cooler.
746
00:38:45,404 --> 00:38:48,015
I know we've talked about this with
Katie McCauley and other guests that
747
00:38:48,255 --> 00:38:51,134
you know, it's ironic that at the
time where people need a community
748
00:38:51,134 --> 00:38:52,634
more than probably ever before.
749
00:38:53,285 --> 00:38:56,165
Organizations, these big professional
development organizations are
750
00:38:56,165 --> 00:38:58,535
really struggling to get people
to get those folks to join.
751
00:38:58,535 --> 00:39:01,565
So I think bringing that back to
community, Derek makes a lot of sense.
752
00:39:01,565 --> 00:39:01,835
Yeah.
753
00:39:01,835 --> 00:39:05,855
And in per an in-person community
too, I think that's the, the,
754
00:39:05,855 --> 00:39:09,665
there's a lot of, uh, you know,
Derek references a digital community.
755
00:39:09,665 --> 00:39:14,944
I, I. I've, we've talked to guests
who look at AI as a personal assistant
756
00:39:15,275 --> 00:39:20,045
or a coworker in some regards, but
again, there's, it's lacking contact.
757
00:39:20,404 --> 00:39:24,214
The best description I've heard of
ai and I even had a conversation
758
00:39:24,214 --> 00:39:27,785
with a, a former colleague the
other day that was having it help.
759
00:39:28,105 --> 00:39:32,185
Rewrite her resume and it added
a, added a company and a job she
760
00:39:32,185 --> 00:39:34,044
didn't ever have into the resume.
761
00:39:34,044 --> 00:39:37,944
And I said, uh, maybe telling you
something that you need to apply
762
00:39:37,944 --> 00:39:41,095
for that company, for that role
because the algorithms clearly
763
00:39:41,095 --> 00:39:43,225
saying that you need to apply there.
764
00:39:43,225 --> 00:39:47,904
But I mean, we still, it's AI right
now is still very much what I've
765
00:39:47,904 --> 00:39:52,315
heard it described as a 5-year-old
with a PhD. It's lack a lot of
766
00:39:52,315 --> 00:39:52,705
context.
767
00:39:55,475 --> 00:39:57,004
That's how my wife prescribes me, Brent.
768
00:39:57,004 --> 00:40:02,315
So at the end of the day, at the end of
the day, we're communicating with people
769
00:40:02,765 --> 00:40:04,355
who knows how to communicate with people.
770
00:40:04,355 --> 00:40:05,435
Best is people.
771
00:40:05,505 --> 00:40:12,345
Yeah, I, I think Matt, I think we're gonna
see sort of a, a shift of, you know, we've
772
00:40:12,345 --> 00:40:17,265
gone to this very digital world of being
able to not have to have face-to-face.
773
00:40:17,865 --> 00:40:22,005
And I believe as time goes on, there's
gonna be that that pendulum's gonna
774
00:40:22,005 --> 00:40:24,135
swing and it's gonna swing sort of back.
775
00:40:24,634 --> 00:40:28,805
The need to want to have
that physical experience.
776
00:40:28,895 --> 00:40:29,165
Yeah.
777
00:40:29,404 --> 00:40:32,525
Well, this has been a
tremendous conversation, Eric.
778
00:40:32,915 --> 00:40:38,255
Anything else that you'd like to
mention that we may have missed through
779
00:40:38,255 --> 00:40:39,430
the, the course of our discussion?
780
00:40:40,185 --> 00:40:40,365
Yeah.
781
00:40:40,365 --> 00:40:41,984
And where can people find
out more about you then?
782
00:40:42,225 --> 00:40:48,044
So, no, I mean the five Cs I think
can be used by anybody 'cause
783
00:40:48,044 --> 00:40:51,705
it's pretty straightforward and
simple as long as you use all five.
784
00:40:52,064 --> 00:40:58,035
And if you understand what a brand is, and
again, my definition, it's my definition,
785
00:40:58,035 --> 00:41:02,774
it may not be everybody's definition,
but at the end of the day, you are trying
786
00:41:02,774 --> 00:41:09,254
to connect with people somehow, and that
connection becomes really important.
787
00:41:10,275 --> 00:41:12,045
To sustain it over time.
788
00:41:12,315 --> 00:41:17,145
So you have to understand what is it that
you're trying to connect and if you're
789
00:41:17,145 --> 00:41:21,045
gonna change it, you know, 'cause we had
the long conversation about changing.
790
00:41:21,045 --> 00:41:21,055
Mm-hmm.
791
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:25,905
Or you know, you know, transitioning,
understand what you're changing so
792
00:41:25,905 --> 00:41:28,245
that you don't change that connection.
793
00:41:28,605 --> 00:41:31,275
'cause that takes a long time
to build that connection.
794
00:41:31,485 --> 00:41:31,634
Yeah.
795
00:41:31,634 --> 00:41:32,565
To get it back, you know, it.
796
00:41:33,705 --> 00:41:34,095
Yeah.
797
00:41:34,605 --> 00:41:36,945
So again, it's a journey.
798
00:41:37,125 --> 00:41:38,595
Building a brand is a journey.
799
00:41:38,595 --> 00:41:39,945
It happens every day.
800
00:41:40,065 --> 00:41:42,195
It's not something you
start at the beginning.
801
00:41:42,585 --> 00:41:44,655
There's the logo done.
802
00:41:44,895 --> 00:41:46,005
Check that one off.
803
00:41:46,005 --> 00:41:46,725
Let's move on.
804
00:41:47,175 --> 00:41:51,555
Building a brand is is every day,
every time you interact with a
805
00:41:51,555 --> 00:41:55,935
customer, every interaction with
a customer, not just the physical.
806
00:41:56,235 --> 00:42:00,105
Every time you touch a customer
is a way to build your brand.
807
00:42:01,025 --> 00:42:05,465
So whether it's, you understand
that everything that you do when
808
00:42:05,465 --> 00:42:09,665
you're talking to that target
group directly or indirectly is
809
00:42:09,665 --> 00:42:10,625
either building your brand or.
810
00:42:11,549 --> 00:42:12,629
Detracting from your brand.
811
00:42:13,470 --> 00:42:17,459
I can be reached, LinkedIn
is my best channel.
812
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,140
Love to connect with anybody.
813
00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:21,000
It's I'm at Derek Roz Deba.
814
00:42:21,029 --> 00:42:23,549
R-O-Z-R-O-Z-D-E-B-A.
815
00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:25,620
So love to connect.
816
00:42:26,399 --> 00:42:31,859
Well, we've truly enjoyed our interaction
with you on both sides, Kim and Derek.
817
00:42:32,009 --> 00:42:34,980
So we will include links to
your LinkedIn, your professional
818
00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:38,730
LinkedIn, as well as links to.
819
00:42:39,405 --> 00:42:42,100
Brandon Queens and Balance of Evil.
820
00:42:42,610 --> 00:42:46,755
Balance of Evil, balance of Evil in
the show notes, because I've, I've got
821
00:42:46,755 --> 00:42:51,105
a soft spot for the fiction portion
of this as we discussed during,
822
00:42:51,105 --> 00:42:52,455
both during the show and before.
823
00:42:52,455 --> 00:42:55,365
So we really appreciate
you joining us today.
824
00:42:55,845 --> 00:42:56,085
Thank
825
00:42:56,085 --> 00:42:56,295
you.
826
00:42:56,355 --> 00:42:56,715
Thank you.
827
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:56,940
And
828
00:42:56,940 --> 00:42:59,055
hopefully it'll be out in March.
829
00:42:59,115 --> 00:42:59,445
Okay.
830
00:42:59,505 --> 00:43:03,405
That's what I, I'm hoping it'll,
it'll be out in March, so thank you.
831
00:43:03,735 --> 00:43:04,335
Excellent.
832
00:43:04,785 --> 00:43:06,105
Well, Derek, it's been a
833
00:43:06,105 --> 00:43:07,095
pleasure having you on.
834
00:43:07,425 --> 00:43:07,905
Thank you.
835
00:43:07,965 --> 00:43:09,225
It was a pleasure being here.
836
00:43:09,345 --> 00:43:09,825
Thanks, Eric.
837
00:43:10,065 --> 00:43:13,695
If you found value in today's
episode, check us out on our
838
00:43:13,695 --> 00:43:16,155
website cultivated marketer.com.
839
00:43:16,875 --> 00:43:19,065
You'll also be able to subscribe to us.
840
00:43:19,215 --> 00:43:24,135
Rate us, and leave us a comment on
your favorite podcast platform such as
841
00:43:24,285 --> 00:43:27,915
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.
842
00:43:28,755 --> 00:43:31,905
Remember, a garden of opportunity grows.
843
00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:33,779
With cultivated marketer.
00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:02,730
Cultivated marketer, episode 40.
2
00:00:03,330 --> 00:00:09,570
The five Cs of branding
with Kim Derek Rose Deba.
3
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:15,930
In this episode of Cultivated Marketer,
you'll wanna see why it would make sense
4
00:00:15,930 --> 00:00:23,070
for us to talk to someone who's an expert
in branding, but has two first names.
5
00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:24,810
If you're curious.
6
00:00:25,165 --> 00:00:27,685
On how that could make sense at all.
7
00:00:28,134 --> 00:00:29,755
You'll want to check out this episode.
8
00:00:29,905 --> 00:00:37,585
No, seriously, we talk with an expert
in branding and delve into the even more
9
00:00:37,585 --> 00:00:40,435
creative side of life with our guest.
10
00:00:54,690 --> 00:00:59,850
All right, Matt, so we are without
Julie, and I know she, she would've
11
00:00:59,850 --> 00:01:03,780
loved to have been a part of this
conversation with, with Derek Rose
12
00:01:03,780 --> 00:01:08,460
Deba, also known on the fiction side
of things, folks, as Kim Rose Deba.
13
00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:10,680
You're gonna hit a just fair warning.
14
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,240
You're gonna hear us alternate
between Kim and Derek and the, there's
15
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,100
not split personality there he is.
16
00:01:17,430 --> 00:01:18,840
He's got a pseudonym.
17
00:01:19,350 --> 00:01:22,385
But we had a great time talking
with, with Derek and I think.
18
00:01:23,475 --> 00:01:29,205
I just really resonated with this
notion of a lot of the things he shared.
19
00:01:30,255 --> 00:01:34,905
And going back to our focus, you and
I kept drawing this thing back into
20
00:01:34,905 --> 00:01:37,395
this focus of professional development.
21
00:01:37,815 --> 00:01:41,925
Even though ostensibly we got into this
conversation talking about corporate
22
00:01:41,925 --> 00:01:46,785
branding, I kept overlaying it and he has
a great story about Oprah Winfrey, right?
23
00:01:47,175 --> 00:01:50,955
He, I kept overlaying it with this
whole notion of personal branding
24
00:01:51,195 --> 00:01:54,045
and how his five Cs could apply to.
25
00:01:54,210 --> 00:01:57,960
To personal branding and particularly
the last one, which he talked about
26
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,869
being so important, but, so maybe a
little, a little bit harder to execute
27
00:02:03,869 --> 00:02:07,679
as this or people to wrap their arms
around as this notion of consistency.
28
00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:10,769
Yeah, I agree and, and you know
what I really like about it?
29
00:02:10,769 --> 00:02:12,810
I've known Derek, you'll hear about
this in the episode a long time.
30
00:02:12,810 --> 00:02:12,900
We.
31
00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:15,600
Worked together on the IBC board
and I just think the world of
32
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:16,770
him, he's such a super smart guy.
33
00:02:16,775 --> 00:02:17,940
And, and just a quick plug.
34
00:02:18,210 --> 00:02:20,370
I know Brent, we have a lot of
listeners in the Kansas City area.
35
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:20,490
Mm-hmm.
36
00:02:20,730 --> 00:02:23,040
Uh, it's been announced that
Derek is gonna be the keynote
37
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,280
speaker at Business Communicator
Summit coming up end of February.
38
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,110
We'll talk more about that
as it gets closer, but.
39
00:02:28,445 --> 00:02:31,715
So if you're in the KC area, this
will be a great episode to listen to.
40
00:02:31,745 --> 00:02:34,325
'cause you know, Derek will have a
lot more to offer when he comes in
41
00:02:34,325 --> 00:02:37,445
for BCS, but what I like about him is,
yeah, I mean, he's definitely a brand
42
00:02:37,445 --> 00:02:40,265
expert, you know, corporate guy worked
for, I think Bayer for something like
43
00:02:40,265 --> 00:02:44,255
25 years leading marketing teams and
about his experience as you can get
44
00:02:44,255 --> 00:02:45,695
of any of our guests in that area.
45
00:02:45,695 --> 00:02:49,745
But he explains branding in
a very understandable way.
46
00:02:49,745 --> 00:02:50,075
Right?
47
00:02:50,075 --> 00:02:50,329
So it's like.
48
00:02:50,855 --> 00:02:53,855
I could, I could bring him in to
teach my, my class of college students
49
00:02:53,855 --> 00:02:56,705
and they would get a lot out of it
because, and he, as he says, you know,
50
00:02:56,705 --> 00:03:00,605
we try to make branding too complex
all the time, but in reality it does
51
00:03:00,605 --> 00:03:02,075
resonate with people on so many levels.
52
00:03:02,075 --> 00:03:05,525
The personal you mentioned, and of course
with our organizations and just the way
53
00:03:05,525 --> 00:03:07,265
he cues it up, the way he talks about it.
54
00:03:07,265 --> 00:03:10,840
The Five Cs are a great, I think,
convention as we as, as marketers.
55
00:03:11,255 --> 00:03:12,695
Kinda keep coming back to that.
56
00:03:12,965 --> 00:03:15,005
You know, these are all things
that I think make him a, an
57
00:03:15,005 --> 00:03:16,595
exceptional expert in this space.
58
00:03:16,595 --> 00:03:20,500
And was so glad we were, we were able
to, to have him come on the air and, and,
59
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,915
and he see, you know, like a lot of our
older, I know Brent, this resonated with
60
00:03:23,915 --> 00:03:27,484
you, kind of a bit of reinvention now,
a little bit later in his career, right.
61
00:03:27,484 --> 00:03:29,015
To doing, gonna be doing
some picture writing.
62
00:03:29,350 --> 00:03:32,739
Yeah, doing some fiction writing
and is gonna come out with a book
63
00:03:32,739 --> 00:03:36,190
here in a couple months that we'll
end up, we'll end up featuring.
64
00:03:36,190 --> 00:03:37,929
I'll make sure I don't lose sight of that.
65
00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:42,339
In fact, our, our company newsletter is
actually, we did a holiday gift guide.
66
00:03:42,339 --> 00:03:44,500
If I would've included that in this.
67
00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:47,140
If the book had been ready, I
would've made sure it was included
68
00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:48,160
in the holiday gift guide.
69
00:03:48,190 --> 00:03:49,929
'cause we've done some work for authors.
70
00:03:50,685 --> 00:03:55,335
Getting it, whether it be an audio book or
help them build websites for their books.
71
00:03:55,335 --> 00:04:00,195
So yeah, I, that, that part did
personally resonated with me for sure.
72
00:04:00,765 --> 00:04:04,905
I think the other, the other part that
resonated with me and you, you talked
73
00:04:04,905 --> 00:04:06,375
about the complexity of branding.
74
00:04:06,375 --> 00:04:10,245
Going back to your, your thoughts around
the complexity of branding, how many.
75
00:04:10,510 --> 00:04:11,590
Different definitions.
76
00:04:11,590 --> 00:04:14,920
Did he say, oh God, he had his own
definition of branding, but it was
77
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,680
like 37 different definitions of brand?
78
00:04:17,890 --> 00:04:17,980
Yes.
79
00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:18,010
I,
80
00:04:18,010 --> 00:04:19,329
I've seen there's dozens, right?
81
00:04:19,329 --> 00:04:23,410
There's dozens of definitions and so it's
no wonder that particularly young pros
82
00:04:23,410 --> 00:04:26,950
and students can get confused because
it, it's just, we've, it's one of those
83
00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:30,955
where we've, we've just ratcheted the, the
up to complexity to such a degree that.
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You know, gosh, if you're, if you're
new in the field or something, I can
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see why anybody would be confused.
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But he does a great job of, of
really bringing it back and, and, and
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keeping it at an understandable level.
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Yeah, the, the five Cs I thought
was a great convention and,
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and the way he outlined it.
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And so folks, whether you get it here
as part of the podcast, we'll we'll
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have a preview here in the podcast.
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And again, as Matt mentioned, if you're in
the Kansas City area, it's February 26th.
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26th, I think.
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Yeah, February 26th.
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Look at that.
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February 26th and 2026.
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Yeah.
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K-C-I-A-B-C.
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And even if you're outside the region
and you're near Kansas City, come on in.
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It's a great time.
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And Derek will be one
of the keynote speakers.
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I think there are a couple keynote
speakers and we might have another
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guest that might be a keynote speaker,
but I'm not gonna say anything 'cause
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I don't wanna step in it and I'm
really good at stepping in things.
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So, but I hope you enjoy our conversation
with Derek Rose Deba, or if you're
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appealing to the fiction side of
things, search Kim Rose Deba and you'll
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find his book it's Balance of Evil.
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Is the book that's gonna
be coming out in March.
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So with that check out and listen to our
conversation here with Derek Rose Deba.
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Welcome to Cultivated Marketer, where we
talk marketing professional development,
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so your Garden of Opportunity grows.
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This is Brent Bowen.
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I'm Matt Tidwell.
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Julie Maison is off on assignments
for this episode, unfortunately,
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I think she's completing her last
class of the semester right now.
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So all the best wishes to Julie.
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I know she's missing us and missing
the conversation, but Julie's off
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doing yeoman's work teaching the.
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Teaching the best and brightest of
the, the future on comms and marketing.
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So Julie, we'll catch you on the next one.
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We're so excited to have
our guest with us today.
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I'm dually excited to, to have
our guest today, and we'll explain
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that duality here in a minute.
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Uh, it will.
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Become apparent, but our guest has
empowered global corporations in
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strategic planning, advertising,
public relations, and corporate
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communications for three decades.
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He is a proven expert in
building iconic Fortune 500
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brands that span all industries.
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His nonfiction book, branding
Queens introduced the.
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Five Cs of branding and this is where
we dip into the duality a little bit.
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And he's now entering the
notorious world of fiction with
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his debut novel Balance of Evil.
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Kim Derek Rose Debo, welcome to the show.
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We, we will alter, if we're
talking fiction, I think we
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established, we'll call you Kim.
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If we're talking corporate branding,
we'll call you Derrick, 'cause
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most people that are probably
listening to this will probably
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call you Derrick through the show.
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But we're excited Avi, on this show.
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Whatever.
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Whatever we call you.
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We're so thrilled to have you on.
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Thank you.
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I'm, I'm
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excited to be here too.
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Yeah, this is really great, Derek.
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It's a real treat for me to get
to reconnect with you, and I'll
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just let our listeners know that,
that Derek and I have a, a bit, a
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bit of a history, a bit of a past.
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We spent some time together
on the International Board
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of directors for IABC at.
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It's sort of a difficult
time as I recall it now.
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We only had just a global pandemic
and just a couple of other things
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that impacted organizations like IABC.
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So he and I, he and I have been
in, in some battles together.
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And, and Derek, it's
great to see you again.
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And thanks so much for being on the show.
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It's just been so great to kind of
keep up from afar with all of your
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cums and goings and, and we had a
similar background both working in.
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Corporate pharmaceuticals.
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I know that was our group pharma
companies, I should say, for a long time.
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And, and so it's just great to
to to catch up with you and maybe
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that's a good place to start.
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You know, you really had some interesting
experiences in, in your lifetime, and
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I knew about some of them, but not all.
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So this will be enlightening for me too.
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But I know that, gosh, you, you, a young
person, you traveled Europe on $10 a day,
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you had a stint carrying an Olympic torch.
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And you've obviously done
your corporate career, you've
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mentored young professionals.
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Tell us a little about your journey,
and particularly this, this latest
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chapter where you've now, you know,
decided to share your knowledge in
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a really profound way as an author.
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How is that?
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Was, was that on your Bingo card initially
or did that just kind of come up or, or
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help us understand that.
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So I don't think life
goes on a straight line.
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You're right.
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E
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everything.
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You know, you just fall
into certain things.
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So I've stepped away from my, my
day job recently, and I started
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writing, actually just doing COVID.
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I started actually my writing
career, which I never had planned.
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If you had gone, asked me if you had
met me, actually when I was a student,
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English was probably my worst subject.
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I remember one teacher actually
taking me aside and saying, is
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this, is this your second language?
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No, it was my first language.
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So it's taken me all of this to find
my new self, but I'm taking with me
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all my experiences of advertising
and branding and communications and
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marketing, and I'm sharing it because
I've got over 30 years in my head.
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That's all in, in there.
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I got.
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Get it out.
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I gotta get it out.
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So, so, you know, writing
is a way of doing that.
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And then I've, as Brent mentioned
earlier, I am now sort of toying with
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the direct toying, actually, I wrote
my first manuscript, which is right now
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with my editor of my first thriller.
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So yeah, you, you don't plan, I, I,
I don't think you plan your life.
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You do.
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I started as a, as a,
a major in economics.
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That showed you how much I was planning to
become, you know, a communication person.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think that's great too, because I was
just, I was just a conversation with
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a colleague the other day about what
we were talking about a young student
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who's a kind of a bright, shining star.
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And, you know, advice to give
young people who wanna be in,
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in marketing communications.
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And part of it is just, you know,
do don't feel like you're gonna
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be on a straight linear path.
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Do step out of your comfort zone,
do look for different things.
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And I think that obviously that's
a lesson for all of us at any
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age, as you're a great example of.
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But yeah, I'm so glad you brought
that up because I think people,
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particularly young pros that I deal with.
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You know, they've got this ideal of what
the, what the trajectory should be and how
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it's all gonna end up at the, at the end,
and oftentimes different things intervene.
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So that, that's, that's great.
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I love it.
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Yeah.
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So just on that, I worked for Ogilvy
for many years, uh, I think seventh
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largest advertising agency in the world.
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We were the training ground for
a lot of new people coming in.
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And so I would do these sort
of exploratory interviews
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with university students.
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You know, those that are starting to
think about, you know, their careers.
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And they would come in and they'd
go, okay, what should I take?
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You know, what's, what's the
best courses I should take?
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And I'm going, I don't know.
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Take whatever you really want to take
and everything you're passionate about,
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because to do communications, it's not
buddy discipline, it's about life and
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it's really understanding other people.
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So I always, all these kids come in and
go, oh, you know, what should I what?
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You know, here's my course plan,
is this, how does this look?
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And I go, I don't know, just live life.
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Great advice.
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Yeah, that's great advice.
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And it's interesting, as you were
talking about unpacking 30 years and
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then then also experiencing life.
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A lot of that coalesced into
your book, branding Queens.
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Then also the five Cs of branding.
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Help us understand a little bit about
the, the, the five Cs and then, and
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also this probably applies to your,
your new life too, because we were
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just, before we got on air, you were
talking about how now you're a bit of an
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entrepreneur, so how, how did the five
Cs work and then how can entrepreneurs
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like your writing self Kim, apply those?
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Yeah, no.
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So thanks for asking brand.
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But the five Cs were really just sort of
buckets for me to, to understand a brand.
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'cause a brand is complex.
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There's a website that has 37 different
definitions of what a brand is.
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So if you've got 37 different
definitions, you know, what really is it?
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So it's really complex.
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I, I'm gonna start with just giving
you my definition of what a brand
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is because I think it's important
to understand where I'm coming from
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and then I'll get into the five Cs.
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And, and mine is really simple.
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A brand is not what you do or say, but
it's how you make your customers feel.
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'cause at the end of the day,
that's what you're leaving with.
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There's a product, there's a service.
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You know, they use it, they do whatever
they would have to with it, but
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it's that feeling that's left behind
and, and the five Cs, which is quite
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quickly, you know, it's commitment.
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Construct community
content and consistency.
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And so I, I'll start with the
first one, which is the commitment.
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You know, this is your why.
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This is your purpose.
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This is your vision of
what your brand stands for.
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Now, when you start building a
brand, this is probably the hardest.
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Because you really don't
know what your purpose is.
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You know what you're trying to do.
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A good example is, is Estee Lauder,
the the, she's in the book branding
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Queens, and she started off by
saying that she had jars of hope so
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it wasn't cold cream or you know,
some sort of cream that's in a jar.
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It was a jar of hope, and
so that was her purpose.
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Now, most don't start that way.
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They start with the cream.
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It's it, and you're trying to make
the best cream ever because you
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have to today in this world, you
know, that's, that's baseline is,
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is the quality of the product.
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So that's your commitment.
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The next one, construct.
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This is the one probably we, we
all sort of start with, which is,
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what does the brand look like?
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What does it feel like?
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What's its personality,
what's its identity?
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That's the logo, the color, you know?
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But do you go beyond that?
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Probably most when you first start,
you're not thinking of a personality,
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but it's important that you do.
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So that's the second one.
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The third one is your community.
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And a lot of people said, well, oh, I
thought it was gonna be your customer.
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That's your C for a customer.
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And I go, yeah, but it's
bigger than just a customer.
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Because you've got your employees.
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Your employees are just as important
as your customers, particularly at
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the beginning, actually at all times,
because they represent your brand.
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They can be your influencers, they can
be your, you know, ambassadors out there.
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So that's the community aspect.
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And then the next one is content.
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And this is sort of again,
the marketing world.
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This is all your communications, but
beyond just marketing, there are other
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really powerful things you can do.
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And we're seeing this now with, with,
with technology and with with social media
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and, and you know, the importance of,
of public relations when you start out.
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Like I am building my brand.
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You have no money to buy advertising,
so you rely on public relations.
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That word of mouth, things like this.
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That word of mouth.
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Word of mouth.
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This is, that's what I was thinking about.
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Word of mouth, word of social
is today, but hugely important.
318
00:16:10,755 --> 00:16:10,765
Mm-hmm.
319
00:16:11,850 --> 00:16:15,660
Now that I know you're, you're dipping
into that entrepreneurial world.
320
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:19,710
It, my wife and I, two days ago, were
in a Barnes and Noble and we're in
321
00:16:19,710 --> 00:16:24,480
the thriller section, and she's a big
thriller reader and a young, young man,
322
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,120
probably about my son's age, 24, 25.
323
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,170
So I'm interested in getting thrillers
and she handed him one book and
324
00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:32,850
said, this is where you start.
325
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:36,860
Prepared to be disappointed from here
on out after reading this book though,
326
00:16:40,250 --> 00:16:43,850
because she goes, this is by far and
away in 15 years of reading thrillers.
327
00:16:43,850 --> 00:16:45,230
This is the best one I've read.
328
00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:48,110
So, which you leads into
329
00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:54,290
my last C, which is consistency,
because if you can't repeat it over
330
00:16:54,290 --> 00:16:56,720
and over, then it won't be a brand.
331
00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:57,200
Mm-hmm.
332
00:16:58,310 --> 00:17:00,050
And that's the hardest one.
333
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,640
And funny, when I did, I look back
at, I used to write a, a, um, blog
334
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,339
and that came sort of the, the
foundation for my second book of omics.
335
00:17:11,790 --> 00:17:15,270
And when I started looking at all the
topics that I had been writing about
336
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:18,960
as it concerned sort of the five Cs,
and I was putting, you know, different
337
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,940
topics within the, the, the five
buckets, the consistency one was empty
338
00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:26,310
and the reason it was empty, it is.
339
00:17:26,714 --> 00:17:31,365
It is so rules, regulations, guidelines.
340
00:17:31,725 --> 00:17:36,705
It's about, you know, innovation,
which is really important, but how do
341
00:17:36,705 --> 00:17:40,575
you get to that innovation to continue
to move your product forward, move
342
00:17:40,575 --> 00:17:42,525
your, your, your business forward?
343
00:17:43,305 --> 00:17:46,215
And it's that feedback component as well.
344
00:17:46,215 --> 00:17:49,725
So that last one becomes hugely important.
345
00:17:49,725 --> 00:17:53,685
I know OO Pro Winfrey continually
said, I am not a brand.
346
00:17:54,825 --> 00:17:59,595
Until one day she found out that a
brand is something that's consistent.
347
00:18:00,195 --> 00:18:05,955
And then her, she admitted I'm a brand
'cause I am absolutely consistent
348
00:18:05,955 --> 00:18:09,975
in, in my goals of what I'm trying
to do with my target audience
349
00:18:10,305 --> 00:18:11,655
and what I'm trying to achieve.
350
00:18:12,075 --> 00:18:14,925
And so she admitted that she was a brand.
351
00:18:15,405 --> 00:18:17,685
Understanding that consistency
was really important.
352
00:18:18,015 --> 00:18:18,375
Yeah.
353
00:18:18,794 --> 00:18:19,514
That's great.
354
00:18:19,814 --> 00:18:22,605
You know, a couple things come to mind
just maybe to brag on our guest a little
355
00:18:22,605 --> 00:18:25,485
bit here, Brent, but Mackenzie and I did
serve together on a board for a while.
356
00:18:25,814 --> 00:18:28,425
You know how there's always that one
person on the board who served the
357
00:18:28,425 --> 00:18:32,084
con, really sort of the, the angel
on the shoulder kind of reminding
358
00:18:32,235 --> 00:18:33,915
Derek really played that role for us.
359
00:18:33,915 --> 00:18:35,834
And, and it was in a
tough, tough time, right?
360
00:18:35,834 --> 00:18:38,235
Because it's pandemic and here we
are, the school board organization.
361
00:18:38,595 --> 00:18:41,294
But he kept, you know, I, I love
working with Derek because he
362
00:18:41,294 --> 00:18:42,554
would always bring us back to.
363
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:43,530
Are we sticking?
364
00:18:43,535 --> 00:18:44,340
Are, are we committed?
365
00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:47,460
Are, are, are we living that first seed,
the most important one, the commitment
366
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:49,290
when or are we getting off track, right.
367
00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:50,460
With the bright, shiny thing.
368
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:53,370
And, and that was easy to do in
a period like that because Right.
369
00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:55,620
I mean, everybody's just trying
to struggle to figure out
370
00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:58,080
what's gonna work and instead of
staying close to our knitting.
371
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,320
And, and so Derek, he now, he, you,
now he talks to talk and his books and
372
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:02,700
in other places who watch the walk.
373
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:03,210
I've seen it.
374
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:05,430
So, and you know, the other
thing that comes to mind is I'm
375
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:07,170
just watching for the other day.
376
00:19:07,564 --> 00:19:10,625
A series of five presentations from
brand new startup entrepreneurs, Brent.
377
00:19:10,625 --> 00:19:12,185
So you're familiar with
like 1 million Comp?
378
00:19:12,274 --> 00:19:12,395
Mm-hmm.
379
00:19:12,635 --> 00:19:12,875
Oh yeah.
380
00:19:12,875 --> 00:19:14,435
Coffman Foundation like that.
381
00:19:14,764 --> 00:19:17,225
And what was struck, 'cause I was
looking at 'em for class ideas.
382
00:19:17,225 --> 00:19:20,345
'cause entrepreneurs, every one of 'em,
these are early stage entrepreneurs,
383
00:19:20,645 --> 00:19:24,695
they, instead of starting with
the jar of Hope, they, they were
384
00:19:24,695 --> 00:19:27,730
immediately going, the cream, here's
what we're gonna sell you here.
385
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:30,245
And, and it just struck me, you know,
they had their little four minute
386
00:19:30,245 --> 00:19:34,054
elevator pitch that all entrepreneurs
do and there was no why there, there
387
00:19:34,054 --> 00:19:36,125
was no, it was, it was literally just.
388
00:19:36,510 --> 00:19:38,790
You know, here's the new
widget, here's the new app.
389
00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:41,160
And Brent, you and I have heard
these pitches all the time.
390
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,230
You just sit there and shake
your head and go, what?
391
00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:47,250
What's really behind that from a, you
know, kind of some, um, philosophy
392
00:19:47,250 --> 00:19:49,015
standpoint or just a vision standpoint?
393
00:19:49,075 --> 00:19:49,775
We see.
394
00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:51,660
So, so go ahead and brought that up.
395
00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:53,100
Hey Derek, I wanna ask
you another thing though.
396
00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:54,360
'cause you worked among branching.
397
00:19:54,765 --> 00:19:57,795
You know, you know, as I say, not
only on the nonprofit side and from
398
00:19:57,795 --> 00:20:00,915
a volunteer perspective, but also in
in large corporations and agencies.
399
00:20:01,365 --> 00:20:05,685
Can you share a success story maybe from
your own past of, you know, you felt
400
00:20:05,685 --> 00:20:10,335
really good about kind of transforming a
company's brand identity or really leading
401
00:20:10,335 --> 00:20:13,875
them to a new place brand wise, that,
that, that really made sense for them.
402
00:20:14,625 --> 00:20:16,004
Any war stories come to mind there?
403
00:20:16,395 --> 00:20:22,545
So I was interested in this, this
question because my first reaction is why?
404
00:20:22,575 --> 00:20:24,075
Why do you want to change?
405
00:20:24,764 --> 00:20:29,805
You have to have a very, very good
reason to change anything because
406
00:20:29,805 --> 00:20:31,545
your brand is owned by your customer.
407
00:20:32,264 --> 00:20:35,895
So you tinkering with it
can have consequences.
408
00:20:36,465 --> 00:20:37,064
To the brand.
409
00:20:37,185 --> 00:20:39,524
I'll use Jaguar for an example.
410
00:20:40,215 --> 00:20:44,895
Recently, you know, they, they
got this new agency and they.
411
00:20:45,645 --> 00:20:46,905
Changed everything.
412
00:20:47,055 --> 00:20:47,685
Everything.
413
00:20:47,685 --> 00:20:51,615
The logo, the color palette, the design.
414
00:20:51,615 --> 00:20:54,795
They had these strange people
and we know the outcome of that.
415
00:20:54,795 --> 00:20:59,325
That was a, that was a, I mean, from
a PR perspective, I would not have
416
00:20:59,325 --> 00:21:01,155
wanted been their communication person.
417
00:21:01,845 --> 00:21:08,175
So recently you probably, I've, I've
worked on several, but the consumer.
418
00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:09,180
Saw nothing.
419
00:21:09,630 --> 00:21:10,950
Things had changed.
420
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,190
You know, the color,
color palette had shifted.
421
00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:19,230
Maybe the logo, you know, some cases
what, what happens in a lot of cases,
422
00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:23,550
what's happening today is they're
adjusting to the new, new formats
423
00:21:23,550 --> 00:21:25,290
of how it's being communicated.
424
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:31,710
I mean, we're gonna see more,
I think we will see more actual
425
00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:34,665
video of logos than we will see.
426
00:21:35,535 --> 00:21:41,325
Static logos because we're going
into a world which is visual and
427
00:21:41,325 --> 00:21:48,795
video is King TikTok, you know, you
now have the ability, like any film,
428
00:21:48,795 --> 00:21:52,185
produce, production company, film
production companies, were the first
429
00:21:52,185 --> 00:21:56,355
to actually, you know, show you a
logo that you know is building and
430
00:21:56,625 --> 00:22:01,365
you know, and it's got lots of music
and it has, and they're still iconic.
431
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,490
You know, some of these paramount, you
know, for example, what's stopping that
432
00:22:06,490 --> 00:22:08,530
from any other brand to do that today?
433
00:22:08,770 --> 00:22:13,660
Nothing because you have the ability
to actually showcase it, probably
434
00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:15,670
more so than you do in print.
435
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:21,010
Print is, you know, passe and I, you
know, how often do you see something
436
00:22:21,010 --> 00:22:22,720
that's just sitting, doing nothing?
437
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:30,370
So, you know, I, I go back to, to your,
to the question is a successful rebrand.
438
00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:38,370
One that you didn't notice because the
customer hasn't had a jolt, the customer
439
00:22:38,370 --> 00:22:44,400
hasn't been misaligned or taken down
a road that they don't want to go.
440
00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:48,840
You know, and other examples of
that, however, there are situations
441
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,310
where, you know, you buy out
another brand and there has to be
442
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:55,260
some sort of an adjustment there.
443
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,210
But again, it's very delicate.
444
00:22:57,854 --> 00:22:59,354
How you're going to do that.
445
00:22:59,715 --> 00:23:03,074
Generally what you try to do is
keep the two brands separate.
446
00:23:03,584 --> 00:23:06,074
You know, a good example
is Kraft and Heinz.
447
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,290
You know, Kraft bought out Heinz,
and, and now that I think they're
448
00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:15,659
splitting it off again into, to a couple
different, but changing dramatically.
449
00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:22,139
Some have to, if it's been a, you know,
a brand that has been not doing well or
450
00:23:22,169 --> 00:23:25,590
maybe have some negative connotations
to it, you may change the name again,
451
00:23:26,459 --> 00:23:30,629
from a, from a worked with one, which
was a telecom here in in Canada.
452
00:23:31,695 --> 00:23:36,585
And it was a government operated
organization, so they had the
453
00:23:36,585 --> 00:23:39,075
opportunity to brand from ground zero.
454
00:23:39,495 --> 00:23:41,475
And so we worked with them to, to do that.
455
00:23:41,475 --> 00:23:45,825
That was easy though, because there
was no real association to the, it was
456
00:23:45,825 --> 00:23:50,385
a, you know, it was the Alberta, you
know, telecom co, you know, anyways, it
457
00:23:50,385 --> 00:23:53,355
had had no real affinity personality.
458
00:23:53,355 --> 00:23:55,514
Yeah, no, because it was forced on people.
459
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:59,490
Now it was, you know, a brand
that you had to actually build a
460
00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:02,399
customer base and reward customers.
461
00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:07,470
And one of the things they did over
time is they bought out a small
462
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:11,280
tel, actually a mobile company, I
think it was Clear, clear mobile or
463
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,210
something, and they had this incredible.
464
00:24:15,535 --> 00:24:22,705
Marketing campaign and they used animals
and they used flowers and plants.
465
00:24:22,945 --> 00:24:28,855
Very simplistic white background,
and their brand was bigger than
466
00:24:28,855 --> 00:24:30,625
their market that they had.
467
00:24:31,285 --> 00:24:33,010
So tell us smartly.
468
00:24:33,705 --> 00:24:34,665
Bought them out.
469
00:24:35,115 --> 00:24:38,655
It was a small player, and they
took that marketing campaign.
470
00:24:38,655 --> 00:24:39,524
They'd been running them.
471
00:24:39,524 --> 00:24:44,175
Same marketing campaign for paying
now for 20 years, at least 20 years.
472
00:24:44,534 --> 00:24:48,705
And to me that was a, that was a, that
was a, you know, I was not involved in
473
00:24:48,705 --> 00:24:55,635
this, but that was a, a, a point where
it was a brilliant decision by somebody.
474
00:24:56,264 --> 00:24:59,564
And then the brilliant decision
to keep it going for 20 years.
475
00:25:00,150 --> 00:25:04,125
Most brand managers, you know, start
getting, you know, itchy feet about.
476
00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:05,490
Three years.
477
00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:10,530
I go back to again, 'cause I
mentioned earlier of Estee Lauder.
478
00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:15,300
Her first campaign was with
a, with a, a model of Graham,
479
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:16,440
I'm forgotten Her first name.
480
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:16,980
First name.
481
00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:19,050
Ran for 15 years.
482
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:20,340
Consistency.
483
00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:23,070
Again, go back to the one
that I was mentioning earlier.
484
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,720
Hugely important.
485
00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:29,370
We marketers, me communicators,
get bored of this stuff.
486
00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:30,360
We gotta change it up.
487
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,450
So, so to answer your question,
it's a long, long response.
488
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:41,100
Is I try to avoid unless there's a problem
that you're trying to fix and then trying
489
00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:45,660
to do it in a way that's thoughtful
to your customer and make sure your
490
00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:47,514
customer's on board with that journey.
491
00:25:48,225 --> 00:25:49,785
With the Jaguar there.
492
00:25:49,785 --> 00:25:53,385
I don't believe there was any
customer involvement whatsoever.
493
00:25:53,745 --> 00:25:58,035
Yeah, you referenced feedback loop
earlier and so I, as you were talking
494
00:25:58,035 --> 00:26:02,805
about Jaguar, we, we, in this show in
past episodes have even talked about
495
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:07,635
something similar to Jaguar with Cracker
Barrel in the missteps around a lot of
496
00:26:07,635 --> 00:26:12,014
the rebranding associated with Cracker
Barrel and of a lot of that I don't even
497
00:26:12,014 --> 00:26:14,565
believe was associated with feedback loop.
498
00:26:14,565 --> 00:26:17,055
It was they were trying to anticipate.
499
00:26:17,355 --> 00:26:20,055
What the future consumer would look like.
500
00:26:20,205 --> 00:26:20,595
Right.
501
00:26:20,595 --> 00:26:26,805
So it's that, that, again, it just,
just helps illustrate, I think what
502
00:26:26,805 --> 00:26:30,375
you just spoke about for the last
few minutes is let's, if, unless
503
00:26:30,375 --> 00:26:32,055
it's really broken, maybe not.
504
00:26:32,055 --> 00:26:34,365
Just throw yourself into
that and create a mess.
505
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:35,220
Yeah.
506
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:36,090
Yeah.
507
00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:39,960
Which, which you talked about this
consistency and I, I, we will move back
508
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,780
into, associated to your book Omics,
and I'm interested about what inspired
509
00:26:45,780 --> 00:26:50,280
you to write that book and what some of
the key takeaways were from the book.
510
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,710
But I, this show is also about personal.
511
00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:55,680
Development, professional development.
512
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,060
And when you mentioned Oprah Winfrey,
I mean even when you were actually
513
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:04,500
providing your definition of a
brand and your definition being
514
00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:06,960
one of how you make someone feel.
515
00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:08,640
I didn't think of a company.
516
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,320
My first thought actually went to my wife.
517
00:27:11,274 --> 00:27:14,485
Like my, if you asked my wife what
her personal brand is, she would
518
00:27:14,485 --> 00:27:18,685
say, I don't have a brand, but I'm
like, oh, oh dear you, you have a
519
00:27:18,685 --> 00:27:20,665
brand and it's an excellent brand.
520
00:27:21,115 --> 00:27:24,084
'cause she makes people, she
makes people feel wonderful.
521
00:27:24,175 --> 00:27:24,504
Right.
522
00:27:24,504 --> 00:27:29,605
So, you know, if we're thinking about
corporate brand or even personal brand,
523
00:27:29,965 --> 00:27:34,735
you know, let's go back to omics a bit
and maybe what inspired you and what
524
00:27:34,735 --> 00:27:38,185
some of the key takeaways maybe for
either a corporation or an individual.
525
00:27:38,564 --> 00:27:44,445
Yeah, so it was really just taking
those 30 years that I had stuffed into
526
00:27:44,445 --> 00:27:50,175
my head and everyone talks, branding,
everyone's talking about brands.
527
00:27:50,175 --> 00:27:54,975
Brands are the most overused word
I think, currently in the world.
528
00:27:55,514 --> 00:27:59,895
Like, you know, brand this, brand that
I need this brand and it's misused.
529
00:28:00,270 --> 00:28:00,990
A great deal.
530
00:28:01,650 --> 00:28:05,160
So there is some frustration that
has been building up in me over
531
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:11,220
the time is to go, okay, I've gotta
get these 30 years on into a book.
532
00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:17,910
The five Cs seems to resonate with people
because it's easy to remember and there
533
00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:20,040
are five, you know, simple buckets.
534
00:28:20,445 --> 00:28:25,695
So that when you are having to build a
brand or you are going to be a brand,
535
00:28:26,385 --> 00:28:32,564
you can navigate this complex world
and sort of look at it from, okay, from
536
00:28:32,564 --> 00:28:38,355
your customer perspective, from your,
your vision to how are you going to
537
00:28:38,355 --> 00:28:43,185
keep this thing consistent and deliver
whatever you're going to promise
538
00:28:43,185 --> 00:28:45,105
you're going to deliver continuously.
539
00:28:46,064 --> 00:28:49,935
So it was, I had it in my
head and I had to get it out.
540
00:28:49,995 --> 00:28:53,895
So I did, you know, it should have
been my first book 'cause that, you
541
00:28:53,895 --> 00:28:55,635
know, made sense to put that book out.
542
00:28:56,115 --> 00:29:00,855
In actual fact branding Queens, I
had a fair bit of it in there and
543
00:29:00,855 --> 00:29:03,225
my beta readers said, you know what?
544
00:29:03,584 --> 00:29:07,395
These stories of these 20
entrepreneurial women are fantastic.
545
00:29:07,905 --> 00:29:10,425
Can you take out all
of that branding stuff?
546
00:29:11,625 --> 00:29:11,985
So
547
00:29:12,135 --> 00:29:12,584
I did.
548
00:29:12,824 --> 00:29:13,304
I did.
549
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:14,050
Okay.
550
00:29:14,350 --> 00:29:14,830
Yes.
551
00:29:14,889 --> 00:29:16,149
Listening to our audience.
552
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:16,659
Yeah.
553
00:29:16,719 --> 00:29:19,389
You know, one thing though, I noticed
in omics, I was gonna ask you about it.
554
00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:21,939
'cause I think that that's something
that when I, I teach a branding class,
555
00:29:21,939 --> 00:29:25,449
I often talk about a similar theme
with my students, but you talk in
556
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:30,040
omics about how it's often the small
interactions with brands that inspire.
557
00:29:30,460 --> 00:29:33,160
One, to become loyal to that
brand, but can you expand maybe
558
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,030
a little bit more on that?
559
00:29:34,030 --> 00:29:34,810
What do you mean by that?
560
00:29:34,810 --> 00:29:37,840
And maybe an, an example
or, or two just Yeah.
561
00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:40,840
I'm, I'm, I don't know if I'm lucky.
562
00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:43,945
I'm sure we all have
experiences with brands that we.
563
00:29:44,909 --> 00:29:46,979
You know, it's the ones that's funny.
564
00:29:46,979 --> 00:29:51,000
It's the ones that have disappointed us
that we spend a lot of time talking about.
565
00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:53,550
You know, airlines being a
really good example of that.
566
00:29:53,550 --> 00:29:58,530
We all have a horror story of an
airline, but the good ones are
567
00:29:58,590 --> 00:30:03,615
also just as as interesting, but
they're probably no more impactful.
568
00:30:04,165 --> 00:30:06,504
For us, and it's simple things.
569
00:30:06,504 --> 00:30:10,135
You know, I, in my book, I, I
have an illustration of one of
570
00:30:10,135 --> 00:30:11,935
just going into a coffee shop.
571
00:30:12,625 --> 00:30:15,745
You know, you've had, you know,
people don't know what's going on.
572
00:30:15,745 --> 00:30:18,804
Like, you know, it's always like when
you're driving, you know, and somebody's
573
00:30:18,804 --> 00:30:20,274
racing and honking and whatever.
574
00:30:20,274 --> 00:30:21,955
You don't know what's
going on in their heads.
575
00:30:22,254 --> 00:30:24,445
What, what's their situation is.
576
00:30:24,445 --> 00:30:27,534
So, you know, give them a
little, really little room.
577
00:30:27,985 --> 00:30:30,115
You come in a coffee
shop, you're frustrated.
578
00:30:30,115 --> 00:30:30,504
You just.
579
00:30:30,715 --> 00:30:33,625
Maybe had that drive and
you get in and you're late.
580
00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:35,005
You know you're late for your meeting.
581
00:30:35,535 --> 00:30:40,785
And the barista who you see
every day sees in your face that
582
00:30:40,785 --> 00:30:42,045
you're not having a good day.
583
00:30:42,345 --> 00:30:46,875
And they acknowledge that
that's simple humanity, right?
584
00:30:47,655 --> 00:30:52,155
But it goes a long way for a brand because
it means that their people behind that.
585
00:30:52,155 --> 00:30:54,915
And that's why your employees
become extremely important.
586
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,775
If you have a brand that's, you know, got
a connection through, through salespeople,
587
00:31:00,675 --> 00:31:03,050
that person's will make that feeling.
588
00:31:03,710 --> 00:31:04,400
For the brand.
589
00:31:04,910 --> 00:31:07,910
I'll give you another
example, A situation for me.
590
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:14,000
When I opened my business account for
my publishing of my books, I went to my
591
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:20,990
local bank and the branch manager, and we
set up the account and she goes, oh, so.
592
00:31:21,399 --> 00:31:22,270
What is your business?
593
00:31:22,270 --> 00:31:25,060
And I said, well, I'm an author
and I'm publishing a book.
594
00:31:25,060 --> 00:31:26,170
And she says, what's the book about?
595
00:31:26,170 --> 00:31:27,670
And she said, are you
gonna do a launch party?
596
00:31:27,670 --> 00:31:29,530
I said, no, I'm not doing a launch party.
597
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:34,600
And a week later I get a phone call
from the branch manager of the branch,
598
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:35,950
and I go, oh, what does she want?
599
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:37,510
I go, well, does something happen?
600
00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:42,730
And she goes, you know, I've been thinking
we'd love to do a launch party for your.
601
00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:43,399
Book.
602
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:48,110
We have entrepreneurial women, we have
this, this group that we get together
603
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:49,760
with all these entrepreneurial women.
604
00:31:49,940 --> 00:31:54,050
We'd like to bring them them in and have
you maybe, you know, talk about your book.
605
00:31:54,479 --> 00:31:54,989
Wow.
606
00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:00,659
You know, this was, I tell this story all
the time to the, I go in the bank, I still
607
00:32:00,659 --> 00:32:04,350
go into the bank and occasionally there's
a new teller and I'll go in, oh, you know
608
00:32:04,350 --> 00:32:06,209
what, this is what your bank did for me.
609
00:32:06,419 --> 00:32:07,409
And they go, oh, what's your book?
610
00:32:07,409 --> 00:32:08,280
And I weigh it down.
611
00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:10,439
So hopefully I've got another book sale.
612
00:32:10,830 --> 00:32:14,850
But it's so simple thing, it generally,
it happens when something's bad.
613
00:32:14,879 --> 00:32:15,270
Right?
614
00:32:15,959 --> 00:32:18,750
You know, you all, we all have
a story where, you know, a
615
00:32:18,750 --> 00:32:20,639
brand pulled us out of trouble.
616
00:32:21,155 --> 00:32:24,935
It's that, you know, that tow truck
driver that comes out from nowhere.
617
00:32:25,205 --> 00:32:26,735
You know, it's those kinds of things.
618
00:32:26,975 --> 00:32:29,735
And those are the stories
that we word of mouth, right.
619
00:32:30,274 --> 00:32:32,675
You share and they become very powerful.
620
00:32:32,915 --> 00:32:33,064
Yeah.
621
00:32:33,064 --> 00:32:35,435
I'm so glad you mentioned employees
'cause Right, and that's where those
622
00:32:35,435 --> 00:32:38,254
micro interactions are happening
on that frontline employee.
623
00:32:38,584 --> 00:32:41,435
And so at least in so many of our
kind of day-to-day retail spaces.
624
00:32:41,435 --> 00:32:43,115
So yeah, it's both.
625
00:32:43,115 --> 00:32:43,415
Great.
626
00:32:43,415 --> 00:32:43,804
Thank you Dan.
627
00:32:45,159 --> 00:32:52,389
So I, I, Derek, I want, I want to go back
to something you said around the feedback
628
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:54,610
loop and around changing your brand.
629
00:32:54,610 --> 00:32:57,879
And as I'd mentioned prior, a
lot of what we do in this show is
630
00:32:57,879 --> 00:33:00,580
around professional development.
631
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:04,690
And as somebody that may be a little
later in their career, they may or
632
00:33:04,690 --> 00:33:09,129
may have not received that feedback
in order to, to branch off and do
633
00:33:09,129 --> 00:33:11,740
something different, try something new.
634
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,560
You know, you even s. Talked about a
little bit of the inspiration of you
635
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,960
didn't anticipate that you would want
to become a, a, a writer and an author.
636
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,490
What advice, as you've been thinking
about your career journey and, and
637
00:33:25,490 --> 00:33:29,090
some of the things that have inspired
you, what piece of advice could you
638
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:32,840
offer to those listening that might
be a little later, further along
639
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,680
in their career about reinventing
yourself or, or listening to yourself?
640
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:37,925
Listening to that little.
641
00:33:38,530 --> 00:33:42,820
That little thing on your shoulder,
that devil or angel, Matt attributed
642
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:47,260
you to you to being angelic, but maybe
even the devil a little bit around
643
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:50,679
what's, what's talking to you and, and
thinking about reinventing yourself.
644
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:52,959
Don't live by fear.
645
00:33:53,439 --> 00:33:58,990
Fear is probably the one of the strongest
motivators that we have, certainly.
646
00:33:59,804 --> 00:34:02,715
As we get older, that
fear increases, right?
647
00:34:02,715 --> 00:34:03,794
There's greater risk.
648
00:34:04,485 --> 00:34:08,264
I, I did things when I, I look
back when I was younger, you know,
649
00:34:08,264 --> 00:34:13,125
I pulled up, got married, and we
moved from Vancouver Island, which
650
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:15,105
is on the west coast to Toronto.
651
00:34:15,165 --> 00:34:15,975
No jobs.
652
00:34:16,455 --> 00:34:20,714
We had seven suitcases and
we're gonna start our careers.
653
00:34:20,955 --> 00:34:22,335
Would I do that today?
654
00:34:22,574 --> 00:34:25,514
No, I wouldn't have, I'd be seven.
655
00:34:25,514 --> 00:34:26,594
Seven trucks.
656
00:34:26,895 --> 00:34:28,125
I just recently moved.
657
00:34:28,125 --> 00:34:31,094
It's horrible, right?
658
00:34:31,545 --> 00:34:33,764
But live without fear.
659
00:34:34,574 --> 00:34:35,955
You can do small things.
660
00:34:35,955 --> 00:34:37,425
You can test things.
661
00:34:37,845 --> 00:34:41,835
You don't have to go both feet
in, you know, feet first and
662
00:34:41,835 --> 00:34:43,185
hope it's all gonna happen.
663
00:34:44,025 --> 00:34:45,735
You can test, you can do things.
664
00:34:45,765 --> 00:34:47,535
So I started my writing.
665
00:34:48,045 --> 00:34:49,185
I started a block.
666
00:34:49,425 --> 00:34:50,415
I did my block.
667
00:34:50,475 --> 00:34:54,105
I watched, saw people like Reddit.
668
00:34:54,675 --> 00:34:56,505
I saw feedback.
669
00:34:56,505 --> 00:34:57,675
I got feedback.
670
00:34:58,335 --> 00:34:59,805
So then I was able to do more.
671
00:35:00,825 --> 00:35:01,785
Branding Queens.
672
00:35:01,785 --> 00:35:05,024
When I first started it, I thought
it was gonna be a blog, and then it
673
00:35:05,024 --> 00:35:08,774
got a little bigger than a blog and I
go, okay, it could be part, it could
674
00:35:08,774 --> 00:35:11,174
be, you know, part one, part two.
675
00:35:11,565 --> 00:35:14,265
People don't read part
one, part two, and blogs.
676
00:35:14,685 --> 00:35:17,024
So I was sort of humming.
677
00:35:17,535 --> 00:35:22,245
Finally, there was a day that I thought,
okay, how many words are in a book?
678
00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:23,400
I didn't know.
679
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,200
So then I went on Googled and
found, you know, the average is for
680
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,490
a nonfiction could be everywhere
from 60,000 to 80, 90,000.
681
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:34,440
And I was at 40,000.
682
00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:39,090
I was halfway, so I didn't
know where I was going.
683
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,500
And you know, ignorance,
sometimes it's bless, but.
684
00:35:44,565 --> 00:35:44,865
I don't
685
00:35:44,865 --> 00:35:45,135
know.
686
00:35:45,135 --> 00:35:46,395
Just do it.
687
00:35:46,815 --> 00:35:47,145
Yeah.
688
00:35:47,715 --> 00:35:51,405
Or as a old colleague of mine, like
to say the, the opposite of ignorance
689
00:35:51,405 --> 00:35:55,275
is bliss is clarity doesn't always
bring comfort, so just go in and do it.
690
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:56,890
Yeah.
691
00:35:59,115 --> 00:35:59,355
Yep.
692
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,040
I love it.
693
00:36:00,310 --> 00:36:03,460
No, I love what, I love what you
were saying about watch out for fear.
694
00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:04,810
I mean, it's that plaque
on the wall, right?
695
00:36:04,810 --> 00:36:06,250
What would you do if you weren't afraid?
696
00:36:06,370 --> 00:36:09,340
You know, that, that kind of,
that, that kind of reminder for us.
697
00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:12,790
Let's switch gears though a little bit
though, and talk more about younger
698
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:15,340
to, again, professional development,
staying on the team of the show.
699
00:36:15,735 --> 00:36:18,315
Younger professionals, uh, I
know you've worked around them,
700
00:36:18,315 --> 00:36:19,755
Derek hired them, et cetera.
701
00:36:20,085 --> 00:36:22,845
And in your own career, just like,
I mean, you know, you sort of never
702
00:36:22,845 --> 00:36:25,035
met a professional development
opportunity you didn't like, right?
703
00:36:25,035 --> 00:36:27,705
I mean, we, we just are
really committed to that.
704
00:36:27,705 --> 00:36:29,775
But this is a tough time for
professional development.
705
00:36:29,835 --> 00:36:32,715
I think you and I
experienced that in IABC.
706
00:36:32,775 --> 00:36:36,585
Memberships are dropping, people aren't
committing at those younger ages.
707
00:36:36,585 --> 00:36:38,985
Like, like we just would've
thought, well, you a no brainer.
708
00:36:38,985 --> 00:36:42,765
Of course you belong to IABC or PRSA
in the states, or whatever it is.
709
00:36:42,765 --> 00:36:43,335
Whereas now.
710
00:36:43,685 --> 00:36:45,395
As you and I both know,
that is not the case.
711
00:36:45,395 --> 00:36:49,505
These, these organizations are losing,
you know, that demographic at a pretty
712
00:36:49,505 --> 00:36:51,005
large clip, or at least definitely.
713
00:36:51,005 --> 00:36:52,385
And of course the pandemic didn't help.
714
00:36:52,715 --> 00:36:53,645
So these are tough times.
715
00:36:53,825 --> 00:36:57,005
In your own words, why is it important
for professionals, especially
716
00:36:57,005 --> 00:37:02,345
younger pros, to make that kind of
investment and, and sort of bank on
717
00:37:02,345 --> 00:37:03,285
the returns they're gonna get from?
718
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:11,160
So I, I'm gonna step back to me working
on this concept of, because there's
719
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,080
so much change, and change is an easy
answer to, to your question, how do
720
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,720
you stay ahead of change when it's
happening faster and faster and faster?
721
00:37:22,770 --> 00:37:27,330
But I go back to sort of what I
call human truths, which is sort of
722
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:31,259
fundamental of how we think and act.
723
00:37:32,145 --> 00:37:37,785
To me, one of the, the fundamentals
is we starve for community and, you
724
00:37:37,785 --> 00:37:42,795
know, it's important for us to have a
community and that I think is far more
725
00:37:42,795 --> 00:37:48,525
important than just staying ahead of
if you can stay ahead of, because you
726
00:37:48,525 --> 00:37:53,115
know, if change is happening so fast,
at least if you're in a community.
727
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,990
At least you're, you're grounded.
728
00:37:54,990 --> 00:38:00,089
You've got a, you've got a support
system that is there to help you when
729
00:38:00,089 --> 00:38:04,109
you need help, as opposed to, you
know, go out there and ask ai, you
730
00:38:04,109 --> 00:38:05,759
know, what's the solution for this?
731
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,950
They'll give you a solution, but you're
not gonna have the historical context.
732
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:14,610
Attached to it to go, is it
actually gonna really work?
733
00:38:15,330 --> 00:38:16,860
Yeah, I mean, AI is really good.
734
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:18,240
I like using ai.
735
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:19,350
Tell me the answer.
736
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:25,020
But I've had 30 years of experience of,
you know, sure it looks like it works,
737
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,940
but it really actually doesn't work.
738
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:30,390
So a community I think
is really important.
739
00:38:31,050 --> 00:38:32,400
Yeah, I love the focus on community.
740
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:32,610
Brent.
741
00:38:32,610 --> 00:38:35,280
How many times on this show we talked
about, you know, it's ironic that.
742
00:38:35,415 --> 00:38:39,945
In this day and age when younger,
mid-career pros, et cetera, are
743
00:38:39,945 --> 00:38:42,285
working increasingly remotely, right.
744
00:38:42,345 --> 00:38:43,695
You know, they're not in teams.
745
00:38:43,695 --> 00:38:45,165
There is no water cooler.
746
00:38:45,404 --> 00:38:48,015
I know we've talked about this with
Katie McCauley and other guests that
747
00:38:48,255 --> 00:38:51,134
you know, it's ironic that at the
time where people need a community
748
00:38:51,134 --> 00:38:52,634
more than probably ever before.
749
00:38:53,285 --> 00:38:56,165
Organizations, these big professional
development organizations are
750
00:38:56,165 --> 00:38:58,535
really struggling to get people
to get those folks to join.
751
00:38:58,535 --> 00:39:01,565
So I think bringing that back to
community, Derek makes a lot of sense.
752
00:39:01,565 --> 00:39:01,835
Yeah.
753
00:39:01,835 --> 00:39:05,855
And in per an in-person community
too, I think that's the, the,
754
00:39:05,855 --> 00:39:09,665
there's a lot of, uh, you know,
Derek references a digital community.
755
00:39:09,665 --> 00:39:14,944
I, I. I've, we've talked to guests
who look at AI as a personal assistant
756
00:39:15,275 --> 00:39:20,045
or a coworker in some regards, but
again, there's, it's lacking contact.
757
00:39:20,404 --> 00:39:24,214
The best description I've heard of
ai and I even had a conversation
758
00:39:24,214 --> 00:39:27,785
with a, a former colleague the
other day that was having it help.
759
00:39:28,105 --> 00:39:32,185
Rewrite her resume and it added
a, added a company and a job she
760
00:39:32,185 --> 00:39:34,044
didn't ever have into the resume.
761
00:39:34,044 --> 00:39:37,944
And I said, uh, maybe telling you
something that you need to apply
762
00:39:37,944 --> 00:39:41,095
for that company, for that role
because the algorithms clearly
763
00:39:41,095 --> 00:39:43,225
saying that you need to apply there.
764
00:39:43,225 --> 00:39:47,904
But I mean, we still, it's AI right
now is still very much what I've
765
00:39:47,904 --> 00:39:52,315
heard it described as a 5-year-old
with a PhD. It's lack a lot of
766
00:39:52,315 --> 00:39:52,705
context.
767
00:39:55,475 --> 00:39:57,004
That's how my wife prescribes me, Brent.
768
00:39:57,004 --> 00:40:02,315
So at the end of the day, at the end of
the day, we're communicating with people
769
00:40:02,765 --> 00:40:04,355
who knows how to communicate with people.
770
00:40:04,355 --> 00:40:05,435
Best is people.
771
00:40:05,505 --> 00:40:12,345
Yeah, I, I think Matt, I think we're gonna
see sort of a, a shift of, you know, we've
772
00:40:12,345 --> 00:40:17,265
gone to this very digital world of being
able to not have to have face-to-face.
773
00:40:17,865 --> 00:40:22,005
And I believe as time goes on, there's
gonna be that that pendulum's gonna
774
00:40:22,005 --> 00:40:24,135
swing and it's gonna swing sort of back.
775
00:40:24,634 --> 00:40:28,805
The need to want to have
that physical experience.
776
00:40:28,895 --> 00:40:29,165
Yeah.
777
00:40:29,404 --> 00:40:32,525
Well, this has been a
tremendous conversation, Eric.
778
00:40:32,915 --> 00:40:38,255
Anything else that you'd like to
mention that we may have missed through
779
00:40:38,255 --> 00:40:39,430
the, the course of our discussion?
780
00:40:40,185 --> 00:40:40,365
Yeah.
781
00:40:40,365 --> 00:40:41,984
And where can people find
out more about you then?
782
00:40:42,225 --> 00:40:48,044
So, no, I mean the five Cs I think
can be used by anybody 'cause
783
00:40:48,044 --> 00:40:51,705
it's pretty straightforward and
simple as long as you use all five.
784
00:40:52,064 --> 00:40:58,035
And if you understand what a brand is, and
again, my definition, it's my definition,
785
00:40:58,035 --> 00:41:02,774
it may not be everybody's definition,
but at the end of the day, you are trying
786
00:41:02,774 --> 00:41:09,254
to connect with people somehow, and that
connection becomes really important.
787
00:41:10,275 --> 00:41:12,045
To sustain it over time.
788
00:41:12,315 --> 00:41:17,145
So you have to understand what is it that
you're trying to connect and if you're
789
00:41:17,145 --> 00:41:21,045
gonna change it, you know, 'cause we had
the long conversation about changing.
790
00:41:21,045 --> 00:41:21,055
Mm-hmm.
791
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:25,905
Or you know, you know, transitioning,
understand what you're changing so
792
00:41:25,905 --> 00:41:28,245
that you don't change that connection.
793
00:41:28,605 --> 00:41:31,275
'cause that takes a long time
to build that connection.
794
00:41:31,485 --> 00:41:31,634
Yeah.
795
00:41:31,634 --> 00:41:32,565
To get it back, you know, it.
796
00:41:33,705 --> 00:41:34,095
Yeah.
797
00:41:34,605 --> 00:41:36,945
So again, it's a journey.
798
00:41:37,125 --> 00:41:38,595
Building a brand is a journey.
799
00:41:38,595 --> 00:41:39,945
It happens every day.
800
00:41:40,065 --> 00:41:42,195
It's not something you
start at the beginning.
801
00:41:42,585 --> 00:41:44,655
There's the logo done.
802
00:41:44,895 --> 00:41:46,005
Check that one off.
803
00:41:46,005 --> 00:41:46,725
Let's move on.
804
00:41:47,175 --> 00:41:51,555
Building a brand is is every day,
every time you interact with a
805
00:41:51,555 --> 00:41:55,935
customer, every interaction with
a customer, not just the physical.
806
00:41:56,235 --> 00:42:00,105
Every time you touch a customer
is a way to build your brand.
807
00:42:01,025 --> 00:42:05,465
So whether it's, you understand
that everything that you do when
808
00:42:05,465 --> 00:42:09,665
you're talking to that target
group directly or indirectly is
809
00:42:09,665 --> 00:42:10,625
either building your brand or.
810
00:42:11,549 --> 00:42:12,629
Detracting from your brand.
811
00:42:13,470 --> 00:42:17,459
I can be reached, LinkedIn
is my best channel.
812
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,140
Love to connect with anybody.
813
00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:21,000
It's I'm at Derek Roz Deba.
814
00:42:21,029 --> 00:42:23,549
R-O-Z-R-O-Z-D-E-B-A.
815
00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:25,620
So love to connect.
816
00:42:26,399 --> 00:42:31,859
Well, we've truly enjoyed our interaction
with you on both sides, Kim and Derek.
817
00:42:32,009 --> 00:42:34,980
So we will include links to
your LinkedIn, your professional
818
00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:38,730
LinkedIn, as well as links to.
819
00:42:39,405 --> 00:42:42,100
Brandon Queens and Balance of Evil.
820
00:42:42,610 --> 00:42:46,755
Balance of Evil, balance of Evil in
the show notes, because I've, I've got
821
00:42:46,755 --> 00:42:51,105
a soft spot for the fiction portion
of this as we discussed during,
822
00:42:51,105 --> 00:42:52,455
both during the show and before.
823
00:42:52,455 --> 00:42:55,365
So we really appreciate
you joining us today.
824
00:42:55,845 --> 00:42:56,085
Thank
825
00:42:56,085 --> 00:42:56,295
you.
826
00:42:56,355 --> 00:42:56,715
Thank you.
827
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:56,940
And
828
00:42:56,940 --> 00:42:59,055
hopefully it'll be out in March.
829
00:42:59,115 --> 00:42:59,445
Okay.
830
00:42:59,505 --> 00:43:03,405
That's what I, I'm hoping it'll,
it'll be out in March, so thank you.
831
00:43:03,735 --> 00:43:04,335
Excellent.
832
00:43:04,785 --> 00:43:06,105
Well, Derek, it's been a
833
00:43:06,105 --> 00:43:07,095
pleasure having you on.
834
00:43:07,425 --> 00:43:07,905
Thank you.
835
00:43:07,965 --> 00:43:09,225
It was a pleasure being here.
836
00:43:09,345 --> 00:43:09,825
Thanks, Eric.
837
00:43:10,065 --> 00:43:13,695
If you found value in today's
episode, check us out on our
838
00:43:13,695 --> 00:43:16,155
website cultivated marketer.com.
839
00:43:16,875 --> 00:43:19,065
You'll also be able to subscribe to us.
840
00:43:19,215 --> 00:43:24,135
Rate us, and leave us a comment on
your favorite podcast platform such as
841
00:43:24,285 --> 00:43:27,915
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Stitcher.
842
00:43:28,755 --> 00:43:31,905
Remember, a garden of opportunity grows.
843
00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:33,779
With cultivated marketer.
