WEBVTT
1
00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:05.280
Hi Ruin. I'm Jason Vanished of
Lighthouse and this is the creating high performing
2
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.080
teams podcast. We have an awesome
guest today, Valentine, a Turner,
3
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:15.640
who is a remote leadership expert.
She is both a facilitator helping companies to
4
00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:19.839
update and adjust their process of practice, is to collaborate remotely, and she
5
00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.120
lives this every day as the head
of product at Klaus, which is a
6
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:28.039
company that is also working remotely.
So Valentine has done some awesome stuff on
7
00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:31.440
the lighthouse blog with us before helping
us with advice we could share with all
8
00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:35.479
of you about mastering remote work,
which obviously has become a bigger deal for
9
00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:40.679
everybody, with covid making everyone suddenly
be remote. That being said, being
10
00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.600
a good manager and leader in a
remote environment is simply not just a matter
11
00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.679
of turning all of your in person
meetings into zoom meetings. I think we've
12
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:51.280
all probably learned over the last two
years that doesn't actually work out so well.
13
00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:55.679
So, as we enter a year
two or three of this journey and
14
00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:59.439
to so many of us becoming remote
and many companies now starting to have a
15
00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:03.520
mixed hybrid set up, I wanted
to bring on someone on the show that's
16
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.400
an expert in this to talk about
how you can handle remote and hybrid situations,
17
00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:11.319
how you can master a Syncretis,
communicate and a lot more. So
18
00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:12.599
we're very excited to have you on
the show today, Valentinea. Thanks for
19
00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:19.000
joining us. Thank you for having
me. Cool. So one of the
20
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.200
biggest shifts, I think, in
remote work, and I mentioned in the
21
00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.480
introduction, is this idea of this
meeting could have been an email has never
22
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:27.840
been more true. No one wants
to be on zoom eight hours a day,
23
00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:34.079
and so the answer people often advocate
for is asynchronous communication. But what
24
00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:38.040
does that actually mean? What is
a synchronous communication actually entail, and how
25
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.040
can someone tell whether this meeting should
be an email? Is a time to
26
00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.879
say hey, we shouldn't have that
meeting, or or asynchronous communication as the
27
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:51.640
right tool for the job? So
let textbook definition of asynchronous communication is I'm
28
00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.040
sending your message and you get back
to me whenever you have time. And
29
00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:59.840
then some companies interpret this as we
need an answer within an hour and others
30
00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:04.079
say you can just answer, let's
say in the next twenty four hours.
31
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.280
Like some companies have really strict ruled
about it. But the idea is you
32
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.719
don't need to be in the same
space, in be that physical or virtual,
33
00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:19.120
to actually have a conversation and to
exchange your viewpoints. Now this whole
34
00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:23.639
idea of this meeting could have been
an email. Actually there it's a it's
35
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:29.520
a step further, because if you
think the meeting should have been an email,
36
00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:37.319
you should send an email afterwards,
because on your computer you're basically not
37
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:43.039
only competing with an email, you're
competing with instagram and WHATSAPP. You're competing
38
00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.000
with everything, because it's all on
the same computer. Like at least when
39
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.879
you had people in the meeting room, they had to pretend to be like
40
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.560
there, but now they can put
off video and if it's a bigger meeting,
41
00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.560
you don't know whether they're actually still
there right the if you feel like
42
00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.280
you're losing people in the meeting,
then you need to actually stop and say,
43
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.719
okay, what are we doing here? And there are different, different
44
00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:07.759
topics that you can look at.
Is the topic actually relevant and we need
45
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.240
to discuss this now, or do
I want to set up a google doc
46
00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.000
and everybody can just put in their
comments when they have a quiet time and
47
00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.960
they are really focused does. Everybody
here needs to be in the meeting,
48
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.319
because the problem with a meeting is
only the people who are in the meeting
49
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:28.120
can speak up and only the people
who actually enjoy speaking up in meetings are
50
00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.120
going to speak up. So you
lose the input from people who are on
51
00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:37.599
vacation or who, for whatever schedule
Shenanigans, can't be there, and you
52
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.199
lose the voice of the people who
are not super comfortable speaking up when there's
53
00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:44.960
thirteen other people on the call.
Yeah, I think that last one is
54
00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.639
a big one. It's interesting how
remote flips some of that, where introverts
55
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:53.400
certainly have a much harder time,
I think, participating live, and especially
56
00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:59.080
brainstorming style meetings or ones where it's
harder prepare and advance, and certainly would
57
00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.120
still probably have the same challenges if
you're all on a zoom together in the
58
00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.680
moment and trying to like raise your
hand, like I know, once a
59
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:10.080
zoom gets to a certain size,
I don't know. For me that line
60
00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.400
feels like it's probably somewhere. I'm
seven or eight people. It's just like
61
00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:15.120
a possible seven yard. How can
I even raise my hand to get to
62
00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.920
say anything unless you have like someone
who's extremely diligent about like calling on people.
63
00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.600
It's very easy for one or two
people to absolutely dominate, talk over
64
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.399
people, or even not even mean
to, but like you never feel like
65
00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:29.839
you had a pause long enough for
you get it, to get to speak.
66
00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.639
Yeah, and I think the problem
here is actually the technology, because
67
00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:38.040
it's too easy to simply call a
zoom call, which means because if you
68
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:42.079
had to call a meeting and reserve
the meeting room and make everybody move within,
69
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.439
you put like more care into preparing
the meeting. If you have a
70
00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.759
meeting in person, there's usually an
agenda involved. There are so many meetings
71
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:51.720
now on zone. Let's just have
a quick zoom call and there is no
72
00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.759
structure, there's no agenda to it. Nobody really knows WHO's in charge and
73
00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:00.360
body really knows what is actually what
is being discussed, and this makes the
74
00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:05.600
zoom fatigue even worse, because you
feel like you're swimming without a clear guideline
75
00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.879
in the Sea of information and don't
know what to do with all of this.
76
00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:14.079
And you can actually mitigate that with
structure. Like one thing is prepare
77
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:15.920
the meeting. Don't just call a
meeting, but prepare the meeting. And
78
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.920
sent the agenda and advanced, especially
if they are introverts on the team,
79
00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:25.519
because if they know the topic and
know the questions I've been asked answered,
80
00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.439
then you can actually do that.
And then, if there's more than eight
81
00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.480
people, use breakout rooms like you
don't. Ever, not every discussion needs
82
00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.399
to be had between fifteen people.
You can perfectly well say, okay,
83
00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:39.879
we'll just going to split up for
ten minutes in groups of four and then
84
00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.800
we'll come back and see what came
up in these groups. Yeah, those
85
00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.560
are two very good, good pieces
of advice. Are the two things.
86
00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:48.040
I don't know how that there's one, have an agenda, which I think,
87
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.639
frankly, in person or remote,
you should have that. It too
88
00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:55.600
many companies, too many teams don't
have it. And then number two is
89
00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.560
absolutely if you have a really big
group, I think first of all you
90
00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.600
should ask yourself if you want to
do one in the meeting, because it's
91
00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.600
meetings are expensive. If you look
at the value per hour of all your
92
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.319
employees, especially for those you listening
who have lots of knowledge workers on your
93
00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:12.839
team, it's very expensive to have
fifteen people in a meeting if they don't
94
00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.360
actually need to, especially when it's
the case of actually like a five minute
95
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.959
download or debrief with them afterwards or
then being c seed on the email of
96
00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:23.199
the recap of what happened gets them
almost everything they need out of the meeting.
97
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:26.040
Having all fifteen people in the meeting
is a lot. So if you
98
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.120
are going to have that, you
want to make it very useful and make
99
00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:31.839
sure you get their input, which
means then you're suggestion of breakout rooms,
100
00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:36.560
which is actually in zoom much easier
than in in like physical practice. would
101
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.399
be much harder to be in a
giant conference room at work and be like
102
00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:44.079
actually, let's go take over to
other conference rooms. But Zoom can obviously
103
00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.399
infinitely divie, and so that's actually
a great particular suggestion and you can make
104
00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:50.800
the two ways like you can make
it at random and just mix them as
105
00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:55.399
a zoom, because zoom has this
like random allocation, or you can actually
106
00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.319
especially if you have you bring to
like different departments or different parts of the
107
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.079
company together. You can think already
before the meetings who do I want to
108
00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.000
put in touch with each other and
be like, okay, I want one
109
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.800
marketing person and one developer on in
each of these groups, and maybe also
110
00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:15.279
like you can actually mix and make
sure that and nobody really because it's nobody
111
00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:17.759
feels like they put into a room
with somebody they don't want to be in
112
00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.519
a room with, because it's not
a room, like it's just a break
113
00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:26.680
room. So you can actually put
people together strategically to also, sometimes you
114
00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:30.360
just know this person at this other
person have very different view, so let's
115
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:31.800
them, put them in a breakout
room and see what happens then, because
116
00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:35.920
they are going to communicate a lot, like very different if there is no
117
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.879
audience. So you can actually use
a meeting to bring people closer together and
118
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.480
then in the meeting being more productive
by putting them into the safe space,
119
00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:48.160
which just a two or three instead
of seventeen or whatever people, because then
120
00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.560
everybody's just watching how the show goes
down. Oh, I love that.
121
00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:55.279
That is one of those things where
it's like there's all these little clever things
122
00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.399
that I think really great leaders do, and clear you thought that way.
123
00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.360
I think as a product leader,
I'm sure you understand that idea of cross
124
00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.040
functional collaboration. Oh yeah, we're
so. I was in product before I
125
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.160
started lighthouse as well, so I
totally appreciate that, but I think that's
126
00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:11.160
one of those little subtle things where
it's, if you zoom out far enough,
127
00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.399
like an average or poor manager can
look very similar to a great manager.
128
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.560
But it's all these little things like, Oh, I'm gonna have a
129
00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:20.079
really good agenda. How long did
it take you to make an agenda?
130
00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.319
I know for me at this point
I can make a good agenda for a
131
00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.000
meetium five, maybe ten minutes,
and so once you get good at that,
132
00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.519
it's like those little five and ten
minute things, like thinking, mom,
133
00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:30.600
not you can hit a random breakout
room. Let me think about who
134
00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.759
I want to make sure I pair
together and spending a couple more minutes here
135
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.720
and there. Those little things actually
compound and add up together when you are
136
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.039
thawful like that. And then,
in the end, five million minutes before
137
00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.879
you finished a meeting, do like
an official. This is what we are
138
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.399
taking away from the meeting. HMM, so that somebody who spaced out,
139
00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.440
and you will always have people who
space out. You, yeah, hearing
140
00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.399
the meeting, actually knows what the
result of the meeting is, and then
141
00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.559
send this out as and like we
talked about this and this, especially if
142
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.840
there were decisions being made, and
we decided this and this, and maybe
143
00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:03.919
even put it into a public place, like not only any email, where
144
00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:07.399
you're basically siloid to the people who
are on the Ya thread, so that
145
00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.600
people who maybe didn't make it to
the the meeting can just read it and
146
00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:13.159
be like Ayah, that's fine,
or no, no, that you like
147
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.639
you'd only forgot about this other thing
and hectually actually have an option to speak
148
00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:24.120
up afterwards. And that's a way
how you can like add asynchronicity to your
149
00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.320
meetings, because, yeah, the
thing was asynchronicity is there is a lot
150
00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:33.240
of companies, like a lot of
experts who talk about asynchronous communication and remote
151
00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:37.519
come from companies that have been remote
forever, which means they had a lot
152
00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.799
of experience. But these companies also
have a certain biased towards people who love
153
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.799
to write and hate to be on
called. That's why they are remote and
154
00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.840
that's why they are synchronous, because
the founder doesn't like calls, or they
155
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.480
were from the very beginning, one
in Sweden and the other one in in
156
00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.720
Canada, whatever, and they didn't
have another chance. But so these expert
157
00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.519
are biased, and now we put
all the people who actually loved being in
158
00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.519
the office and tell them, oh, you should not have any meetings anymore,
159
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:07.840
and that doesn't work either. So, especially if you have a hybrid
160
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:13.159
team, you need to find a
balance where the people who actually think in
161
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.840
writing have the option to actually write
down their thought and actually discuss their thought,
162
00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.480
maybe in writing, but where you
don't leave the experts feeling out of
163
00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.120
the loop because they actually think through
talking through that points, because some people
164
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.279
actually develop their ideas as they are. I call it rubbert ducking with someone
165
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.159
else. So you need to give
them disappearent opportunity as well. Oh,
166
00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.639
absolutely, that's a very good point. In it at like we see it
167
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.799
every of Lighthouse we've been remote and
then we were in person and or we
168
00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:45.840
were remote again, and it's funny
to see how different people thrived in different
169
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.720
scenarios. I know for myself.
Fortunately I've learned to be a chameleon because
170
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.200
of being a product person, but
it's I know the designer on our team
171
00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.879
does some of his best work when
he and I just are on a call
172
00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:00.360
and he has like sketch open and
we try stuff together and like the feedback
173
00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.200
I give him there. I know
he likes much better than the feedback.
174
00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.080
I give him a synchronously. Yeah, because he can ask me follow questions
175
00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.320
a week. What did you sorry, you said you like that. You
176
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.840
didn't like that way. What part
did you actually what did you mean by
177
00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.279
that? And we can lege into
and he'll literally sometimes make like hot fixes
178
00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.360
and changes there. But then there's
other people on the team that it's some
179
00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.080
of the marketers on our team and
stuff. They very much prefer, let's
180
00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.080
say, Hey, they write for
a living, so let's say it.
181
00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.639
Let's just right for our communication as
well. And so, yeah, you
182
00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.919
do notice that different people respond differently, and I think like realizing that it's
183
00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.120
we're not trading all of our screw
drivers for hammers, to recognize when to
184
00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.919
use each of them and when actually
using both as actually maybe better than any
185
00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.120
one individually. And I think that
also what makes a good leader, like
186
00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.679
to understand whom of your tea in
your team needs what. And one example
187
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.720
there is you need one and once, and that's one of the things and
188
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.440
remote work that I'm that's a hill
I'm going to die on. You need
189
00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:58.440
to like weekly or at least bi
weekly, one and once. You need
190
00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.200
to talk to you people, because
you don't see what's going in their lives
191
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.519
by like these random interactions in the
office. So you have to put a
192
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:11.279
liberal of structure into it, and
one thing is doing like asynchronous check ins
193
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.480
on slag or teams or whatever,
where people just put in what they do
194
00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.240
in the day today, but like
once the week get together, even if
195
00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.000
it's half an hour, and just
talk about not only about what's going on
196
00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.679
in work but also what is going
on in their lives because they are working
197
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.200
from home. If their kids dot
can't go to school because the micron is
198
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.720
all around, then this will impact
their work, whether you want that or
199
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:37.519
not. So you need to know
that. And then if somebody really wants
200
00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.480
to like just talk, then you
talk. But if somebody opens up a
201
00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:46.960
lot more in a chat one and
one, you can absolutely mix it up
202
00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.320
and from time to time do one
and ones that are synchronous, but you're
203
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.200
writing on a Google dog or you
discussing something on a Google dog. Yeah,
204
00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.679
you don't need there is no one
size fits all and has to work
205
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.039
for everyone, and you can experiment
and it's much easier to experiment in a
206
00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.639
remote environment than in an office environment. Yes, absolutely, I think that's
207
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.279
a really good point, especially the
more you, as a leader, can
208
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.639
adapt a little bit to your team
and recognize that there are different styles,
209
00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:15.080
the better. I know, I'm
not sure. Are you familiar with the
210
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.200
idea some people kicked around maybe about
a year or two go, about manager
211
00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.960
read me's No, okay, so
the way manager read me's work is that
212
00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.200
the idea was, hey, what
if I wrote up a guide about like?
213
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:28.159
However, you use it like a
man use a manual about yeah,
214
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:33.159
exactly. Its was at was very
polarizing debate. I personally, I actually
215
00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.320
sit on the fence on it to
some extent. I appreciate the idea of
216
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.159
telling people that, because I know
there's things I repeat every person I've ever
217
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.919
managed. There are like a handful
of concepts and values I have that are
218
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.559
like, Hey, I need you, just stick to these if you these
219
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.320
are my third rails. Like one
of them is manage my expectations. It's
220
00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:50.120
if something goes wrong personally and professionally, all I need to do is tell
221
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.600
me and we'll figure it out together. They only time you're truly in trouble
222
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.720
is if you hide from me and
don't say anything and I have to chase
223
00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.360
you down. That's the only time
you'll get in trouble with me and the
224
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:01.399
first thing going to tell you is, hey, if you just manage my
225
00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:05.759
expectations, we would have done x
and y sooner. But I also understand
226
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:07.519
from other side, like you're talking
about, one of the challenges I think
227
00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:11.600
of read me, and why I
know some people, especially on twitter,
228
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:13.519
are very passionate about them being the
wrong way to lead, is that it
229
00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.679
can create that one size fits all
management where this works best for me,
230
00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.559
so I only hire and want to
work with people who do it exactly my
231
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.759
way. You definitely don't want to
be that way. You want to recognize
232
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.960
where your team's at and and try
and at least meet them halfway on some
233
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.639
stuff, like I understand that sometimes
people may make asks that are a little
234
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.480
further than you can really accommodate,
but you should look for some things where
235
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.840
you can meet them like, for
instance, I know for the introverts on
236
00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.679
my team I make absolutely sure they
get the agenda ahead of time. That
237
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:41.639
way they know what I want to
talk about, they have a chance to
238
00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.440
think about it and they can prepare. And I know that there are other
239
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.399
people that are totally fine with us
kind of going a little more winging it
240
00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.360
and just running through what's going on. Adapting to the people. I think
241
00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.279
is an important thing to call out. So I wanted to highlight that fact
242
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.679
that you can tell your teams some
guard rails, but you should also try
243
00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.759
and adapt to your team. Yeah, actually, like I work, because
244
00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:03.919
I I work in a very international
team, like Klaus is an company from
245
00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.679
Estonia. So, like we have
a lot of Estonians in the company,
246
00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.919
but we also have people from Britain, from Portugal. I live in Spain,
247
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.039
but I am German. So I
work a lot with the culture map
248
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.559
by Aaron Meyer, and she actually
has a tool online where you can on
249
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:22.200
the eight different like she has eight
different categories where you can slaught yourself in
250
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:26.080
and then they are always like extra, like extra word and introvert, like
251
00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.240
you have like a sliding scale.
And the interesting thing about this tool is
252
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.720
that when I worked at automatic,
which is a very American infused company,
253
00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:41.240
I was always being told that I
was very direct and very bold, and
254
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.159
now I work with like people from
the Netherlands and they tell me I'm very
255
00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.799
soft spoken and very direct, and
it's not that I changed, it's just
256
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.919
because it depends how you compare to
the other person. So I think the
257
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:58.440
problem with the read me files is
a little bit that you show your position
258
00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.600
but you don't really have the comparison
from where the other person is looking at
259
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:07.320
you. So it might actually be
a better idea to like create a read
260
00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:11.679
me file and discuss it with the
other person and then ask questions. Okay,
261
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.600
you say that you want direct feedback. What does direct actually mean for
262
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:21.279
you, and where do you want
it and how do you want it?
263
00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:25.600
And are there like do you want
maybe direct feedback, but you want it
264
00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.039
written because you won't don't want me
to tell it to you. I'll be
265
00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:33.679
staring at my face since I'm criticizing
you. These like little things that often
266
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.320
get lost in these conversations, but
they're very important because it's not only like
267
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.200
how am I, but how am
I when I interact with you? Absolutely
268
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.639
it's a very good point and I'll
make sure for people listening I'll get a
269
00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.240
link from Valentine about the culture map, so you can check that out in
270
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.559
the show notes. Going back to
asynchronous communications, so, like you said,
271
00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.519
I think it's a lot easier if
you're like remote first, and you've
272
00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.200
always been doing this stuff. I
think it almost naturally happens, both from
273
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.600
the perspective of you start doing it
from day one, so it's ingrained in
274
00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:07.519
the culture as well as you probably
hire people who are predisposed. If I
275
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.319
recall correctly, automatic has had a
practice of like really making their hiring process
276
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:17.200
make sure you're comfortable with writing a
lot and like how you interact with the
277
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.680
team in the interview process is actually
very written driven. Yeah, yeah,
278
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:25.279
no, there are no calls until
you're hired exactly, and so knowing that
279
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.200
that's one way you can end up
embracing remote. But for companies making the
280
00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.359
transition, I think that's the larger
audience of the world of managers who may
281
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.839
be struggling with this. So let's
say we've got a manager here who's listening
282
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.480
the podcast and their company has been
remote because of covid there the looking like
283
00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:47.119
they're going to at least stay partially
remote for the foreseeable future and they're dying
284
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:51.200
and zoom meetings. So how would
a manager like that maybe starts implement some
285
00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:56.400
asynchness communication, which should they be
doing foundationally to start to transition maybe some
286
00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.279
of those meanings away or some of
the things they're doing haphazardly to and brace
287
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.599
a syncretis communication in a company where
they're used to. Hey, we were
288
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.359
always in the office together and were
used to that world. HMM. So
289
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.000
there's one thing is for the people
who really enjoy because there are people who
290
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.119
really enjoy being like on no video
called the entire day, is to offer
291
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.640
this as an option and not as
a mandatory thing for the team, and
292
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.480
there are a lot of different programs, like you don't need to use zoom
293
00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.160
for that. Way You people can
like walk in and out of it like
294
00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.599
a coffee room or something, and
just work together and heavy this feeling with
295
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.079
somebody else is working with them.
But in general, and I recommend that
296
00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:36.640
for managers, by actually recommend that
for anyone who has more as we meetings
297
00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:41.000
per week, is do every three
months, do a meeting audit and basically
298
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.200
delete. Well, you probably can't
physically delete them, but take a completely
299
00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.480
free agenda and for every single meeting, think about is this meeting first?
300
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:57.359
Is this meeting actually necessary? And
for that you can look in past meeting
301
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:03.400
notes. If there are no past
meeting notes, try to remember what you
302
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.519
talked about the last three times.
If you can't remember that. Why the
303
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.279
heck are you having that meeting?
Yeah, like it obviously isn't adding any
304
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.680
Vailue. The only the only exception
there is one in once, like the
305
00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.319
one, and one should go into
your agenda, yes or yes because,
306
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.960
and then probably a team meeting and
a one in one with with your own
307
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:26.839
mayor. But everything else there are
different kind of meetings. There meetings where
308
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.319
you make a decision. Those need
an agenda, those need like clear your
309
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.079
information where people can look before then. And then there are meetings that are
310
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:38.160
brainstorm that and there is a huge
debate whether you can brainstormings. Actually better
311
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:44.440
asynchronous than synchronous, but there you
can lose stuff like mirror or its to
312
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.680
like structure that. And then there
are meetings where people just talk to define
313
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.119
that they're going to have an ex
meeting, and those meetings you want to
314
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:55.079
get them, them out of your
agenda, out of your diary. And
315
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.079
then the more difficult things. Actually
how do you need to learn to decline
316
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.200
meetings, because the problem is people's
are not meeting invites when they're stuck,
317
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:11.079
because it's much easier to quickly ask
for a meeting then to formulate a clear
318
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.400
question and send out that question.
So you just, you just invite three
319
00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.519
people to a meeting and then these
flee people say yes. Why? Like
320
00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.960
just because Google made the button for
yes bigger than the buttom for. No.
321
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.200
It's an invitation, it's not a
citation. This is not like you're
322
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:30.440
not being cited for a judge or
something like. It's an invitation and you
323
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:37.400
can decline invitations and starting to actually
decline invitation to yourself and then maybe send
324
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.160
an email say hey, I decline
this invitation because I already have six meetings
325
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.319
that they and I know that I
won't be able to add any value for
326
00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:47.920
this. Can you give me a
summary so I can tell you my opinion
327
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.720
ahead of time and then you can
take this like into consideration, or and
328
00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.359
also telling other people's I'm inviting you
for this meeting, but if you want,
329
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.240
you can send me your opinion in
an email and you don't need to
330
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.880
come to that meeting, which also
helps you to figure out who in your
331
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.519
team actually enjoys the meetings and who
in your team prefers not to have them,
332
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.920
and then to force that. We
have two meeting free days at clous
333
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.319
declared like Wednesdays. And Friday are
meeting three days. That doesn't mean that
334
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.359
no one has meeting on the days, but we don't do group meetings on
335
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.440
that day. So if you want
to do a oneonone on that day,
336
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.000
that's totally fine. But there are
lots of people who have both days completely
337
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.039
blocked in their agenda for meeting and
that's fine because it's component. That means
338
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:33.160
if you want to do more meetings, like there is no space in the
339
00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:36.279
agenda. And if there's no space
left in the agenda, people actually start
340
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.759
thinking about which meetings do I not
meet? And that's what yere. You
341
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:45.519
want to get away from this automatic, I'll just call a meeting situation,
342
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.119
but the actually have people think about
whether they want to call a meeting.
343
00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.440
Yeah, if forces, it's a
forcing function of creating a budget. Essentially,
344
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.039
yeah, you can only have sixty
percent your week consumed by meetings.
345
00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.319
Exactly. I know I have a
number of friends who are in that executive
346
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:06.359
to middle management layer and they absolutely
run into this challenge of like, I'm
347
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:08.839
in meetings eight hours a day,
every day and it's awful and my brain
348
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:14.160
is just over overloader with with crap, and so having those no meeting days
349
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.839
is equally as affected for like your
engineer, who just wants it a pure
350
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.920
day of unadulterated focus and getting in
a zone, as it is actually for
351
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.920
managers, where I think one of
the taxes that managers don't think about is
352
00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.920
when you're in these meetings all day
like, you don't get other things done,
353
00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.039
and those other things are often long
term thinking, strategic decision making,
354
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:38.079
sir, and research, looking beyond, looking beyond this this week to future
355
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.920
weeks and maybe even doing some of
this creation of being like, actually,
356
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:45.480
I have thirty minutes free to look
at my counter for the rest of the
357
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.359
month and see what meetings I can
get rid of. HMM. And it's
358
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.839
something that needs to start from above. If doesn't, if you're a manager
359
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.279
or an executive, it is your
duty to start this movement. Absolutely a
360
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.880
leadership by example is huge here,
because certainly if you show it's safe to
361
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.200
decline meeting it, it means the
rest of the team can't. And then
362
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.559
if you also show, Hey,
I'm not just declining ignoring you, I'm
363
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.799
declining and asking for more infos so
that I can add a sentence or two
364
00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:17.960
of input. I have found,
especially with like engineers, who are just
365
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.920
prefer to focus, often get hey, I'm going to sit down with our
366
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:23.960
designer. Do you want to join
this meeting? And they often say no.
367
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.559
But please keep in mind this and
this constraint and if you come out
368
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.559
of the meeting with technical questions that
you think affect your design decisions, either
369
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.680
a will have a quick call just
to talk about those or be present me
370
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.960
the two options and we'll talk about
which is better based on that and like
371
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:47.119
that two sentence constraint. Just save
them both thirty to sixty minutes city in
372
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.720
the meeting and all the interruption of
their daily flow. Because we're all are,
373
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.039
you know, layhouse of global we
can't just be like, oh,
374
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.200
we're only going to have meetings in
the morning because my morning is someone else's
375
00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:02.279
after Ye, who's morning? Yeah, up exactly. So we've talked about
376
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.480
sure, what the positives here and
like how to transition to you, but
377
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.519
what are some of the pitfalls and
problems of asynchronous communication? One of the
378
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.279
biggest pitfalls, I think, is
that people are not used to writing stuff
379
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:18.279
down and a lot of people are
scared of writing things down because if you're
380
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.559
in a meeting and we are talking, I can see on your face whether
381
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.680
I'm hitting the mark or not,
and if you're very confused or if you're
382
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.000
my manager and you start to look
like angry, like I can't mitigate that
383
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.720
as I'm wiggling my way through the
meeting. And if you've writing, you
384
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:40.599
don't have that immediate feedback. So
you really need a culture of psychological safety
385
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.480
for people to write down opinions.
It's very, very easy for people to
386
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.359
write down one plus one is too
m but do you prefer green or blue?
387
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:53.400
Is already like more, more difficult
question, because there's no right answer.
388
00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:00.559
And so by actually modeling what's this
writing, and by also asking easy
389
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.359
questions as you transition to a more
written focus and giving clear structures, like,
390
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.079
if you want somebody to write up
a summary of a meeting, give
391
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.079
them a cheat sheet on how a
summary should look like, because if you
392
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:15.720
tell somebody, can somebody here do
meeting notes, the amount of people who
393
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.039
don't know how meeting notes work and
then you get like this, five pages
394
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:25.160
of verbal written down basically as if
you had a strengs surph yeah, thing,
395
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:29.680
yeah, and this requires again from
the company, from the manager side,
396
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.240
is certain type of you can learn
how to write well, like this
397
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.880
is not rocket science, but you
need to learn it. You were not
398
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.240
born with this and if you come
from a very oral culture, will company
399
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.799
culture side, then it's normal that
you don't know this and it's fine,
400
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.440
but you can learn this and then
like actually giving people the opportunity to try
401
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.519
it, to fail, to learn
what I really is having people doing meeting
402
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:57.519
notes in a Google dog and then
I go through the the Google doc and
403
00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:03.279
basically cross out half of it and
then comment why I crossed these things out.
404
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:07.000
So I don't only correct what I
see, but I actually explain my
405
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.599
thought process and then you'll you do
like five, four, six times,
406
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.160
and then people can be used to
Oh, I really don't have to write
407
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.759
down everything and it's fine if I
summarize something, and it's okay if this
408
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.880
is not entirely clear, because I'm
the idea is not that you judge somebody
409
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.640
for what they have writing, but
actually writing is just one way to express
410
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.559
what's going on in your brain,
and that's valid where something is going on
411
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.279
in your brain with hope. So
starting this conversation is is fine, and
412
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.039
then always telling people, look,
if we're discussing on a google dog or
413
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:47.559
in confluence or whatever, until we
finalize this document and we are all happy.
414
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.880
This is work in progress. It's
fine like and you can change your
415
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.079
mind, and actually it's good if
you change your mind, because it's neat
416
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:57.680
it need. It means you have
taken new arguments into your thought process.
417
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.319
There's nothing worse than somebody who never
ever changes their opinion, because it means
418
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.759
they are basically absolutely rigid and don't
learn. Absolutely and I think one of
419
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.599
the most important things to call out
there is just the fact that, like
420
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.920
hey managers, one of your jobs
to be a coach, and coaches give
421
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.480
feedback and they give praise and positive
reinforcement, and so you may not think
422
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:25.000
that meeting notes is an area you
should be spending time on, but it's
423
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.000
actually a high leverage area for you
to invest your time, because if everyone
424
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:34.160
on your team knows how to take
good notes and they're there may be some
425
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.480
flexibility, but if there's some level
of standardization, it makes it easy for
426
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.640
the whole team to start to develop
a share culture and language on how these
427
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.720
go. So it's actually a very
high leverage thing for you to do,
428
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.440
to invest in teaching your team how
to do these things and invest time and
429
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.440
showing them what makes good notes and
what doesn't. HMM. And it's also
430
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:57.359
it's a transferable skill because if you
can have a one hour meeting and synthesize
431
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:03.839
this in two paragraphs, you can
then have a threehour interview with the customer
432
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.880
and get down out like the three
grains of wisdom that you need for the
433
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.160
product organization like this, like the
whole idea of Oh, we don't need
434
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.039
meeting nude, that meeting notes,
this is too much writing. Yeah,
435
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:23.519
but it's a great way to practice
skills and then at some point you don't
436
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.160
need it for it, because it
is true you don't need meeting notes for
437
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.720
every single meeting, but it's a
great way to practice taken good notes and
438
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.480
actually helping people to transfer what they
hear into something that is written down.
439
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.759
Yeah, do you have any favorite
resources? Maybe we can link too in
440
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.119
the show notes. There is a
book which is some Tis of writing well,
441
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.759
which is like from the s or
six days, so that you like
442
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:47.519
it's or maybe not that old,
but yeah, I'm probably with the book
443
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.799
linked to it old, but it's
really good and I think I have another
444
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.960
two or three books that I can
send the links to you afterwards, but
445
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.880
they on writing list. The one
that I constantly recommend because it's so it's
446
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:02.799
a very quick read. Like ignore
that. He completely, like it is
447
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.039
from the area are it is from. Yeah, but like the when it
448
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.480
comes to how to write, the
advice of Somel. Yeah, totally.
449
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.359
That's always one of the funny things. Like it's amazing how many times,
450
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:15.279
how many times books right there.
Actually, my favorite copywriting book was written
451
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.799
in like one thousand nine hundred and
forty five. And what's Hilarious is if
452
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.000
you read it through the Lens of
what he talks about for a full page
453
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.240
magazine Ad why, it's like exactly
like a laney page. On the air.
454
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.680
It absolutely and as soon like got
halfway through the book and started thinking
455
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.599
that way and I started thinking about
all the web pages that I knew that
456
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.160
were relatively well designed, and I
was like, Oh, it's all the
457
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.559
same and just so I love those
kinds of books that like, I think
458
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.680
it's the sentelp calls them. They're
lendy there, more than twenty years old,
459
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.200
but the advice is timeless. So
that's great. We'll make sure you
460
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.559
flude some links to that kind of
stuff, because certainly we want to give
461
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.160
you a good place to start,
because certainly if you're going to coach your
462
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:52.920
team on how to get better at
these we want to make sure you start
463
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.519
with a good foundation and maybe have
some things you can point your team too
464
00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:02.279
as well. So, Um,
think about some of these pitfalls of asycrenis
465
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:07.599
communication. So giving them feedback is
one way to make sure and making sure
466
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.640
you have notes in general and their
good notes are one way to mitigator.
467
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.200
Are there any other things that the
manager should look out for that are pitfalls
468
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.160
for a secretis communication and, in
particular, how to then avoid those?
469
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.359
Check who's participating and WHO's not participating? Okay, and that's then something that
470
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720
you can look at in one and
once. And I don't mean that everybody
471
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.799
needs to participate at the same level, but if there are people whose voice
472
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:38.279
you never hear or read, then
it's I think it's worth digging into.
473
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:42.519
Why is that or what is actually
happening there? And maybe they are just
474
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:48.480
they need like a smaller group to
actually participate, or maybe something is wrong
475
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.119
and they're completely disconnected from what they
are doing, which can also happen,
476
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.039
which can happen because simply they feel
lost or because they have stuff going on
477
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:00.279
in their private life that hopefully you
are aware because you have one on once
478
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:06.519
with them. But there is an
interesting you can actually analyze who participates how,
479
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.839
for example in your slack and create
like it looks a little bit like
480
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.920
a spider web and figure out who's
communicating with whom and who's maybe on the
481
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.640
edge and who's like very important,
etc. Dr Katterina Bullock Carbonet I can
482
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.079
also like this. Her company does
this for a living. Basically, they
483
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:29.359
help you analyze the communication patterns within
your company and it's very interesting because if
484
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:33.920
you understand and the communication pattern in
your company, you can also you see,
485
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.559
are there risks like step burke,
for example, one or two people.
486
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.759
If they leave, then you don't
have a company anymore because everything goes
487
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.559
through them. Or are there people
that never talk to anyone and you're like,
488
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.759
oh, they might be on turn
risk because they're clearly not really invested
489
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.680
in what they're doing anymore. So
you can look a lot of these things
490
00:31:52.759 --> 00:32:00.039
up through the communication that's happening,
and you can do this with data analysis
491
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:06.200
or you can just check, like
who is doing who's never writing anything personal
492
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.279
in their checkens, or who is
never writing their checkens on that you have
493
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.960
the asynchronous chickens that you have,
or who is only ever talking on one
494
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.960
topic and seems not to be at
all aware that this other topic is also
495
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.000
going on. So like having a
little bit of pulse on what is going
496
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:24.680
on. It doesn't mean you have
to read everything, which after a certain
497
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:29.720
size at a company is completely not
viable, but getting an idea at least
498
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.880
for the people that report to you
how engaged they are. And that doesn't
499
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:38.160
look engagement. Is this this fuzzy
thing where I because I don't think you
500
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.759
company needs to be your family or
your best friend either. In the end,
501
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.920
like it's a job that you do
because you want to pay your rent.
502
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:50.319
But there's still you still want everybody
to like be comfortable and to be
503
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.759
participatory, not twelve hours a day, but definitely whatever they need to get
504
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.200
their job done. Yeah, so
we talked about how you may have a
505
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.000
group meeting and you realize that some
of the people on the team would actually
506
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.559
participate better a synchronously, whether it
be sharing a couple of thoughts before the
507
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.200
meeting or shortly thereafter. So that's
a great way to take an in person
508
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:13.880
meeting and make it asynchronous or remote
friendly. But what about going the other
509
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:15.559
direction? Do you talk about like
maybe some extroverts, of people who like
510
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:20.279
to work things out live? What
can you do for them if, essentially,
511
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.680
that meeting either never happened or it's
become a synchronous and you're finding that
512
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:28.400
person is a participating in a written
format? What what has worked very well
513
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:32.359
with me is using loom videos.
Oh Nice, because, and we actually
514
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:37.880
started this because somebody wanted to like
do a screen share with a product idea,
515
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:40.240
but it was impossible to get because
of time zone difference. Like we
516
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:45.519
didn't find the way to actually be
on the same goal. So they made
517
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.480
a video for me and then the
good thing with loomas that you can actually
518
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.160
comment on the time stamp, which
makes it very easy to then have the
519
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:59.559
other person talks and then you've ride
your thoughts as your watching the video and
520
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:02.960
they can and it's it creates this
very interesting, very hybrid way of conversation.
521
00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.640
And then they would send me video
after video and I would send them
522
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:09.719
back like comments on the video.
So it was like one person was able
523
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.239
to talk and the other was because
I work better and writing and the other
524
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.599
way person was able to write back. So that work pretty well. And
525
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:21.639
that's the thing why you can and
remote. You can experiment so much because
526
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:25.199
they are so many tools by now
out there that you don't necessarily need to
527
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.480
use as they are described. Loom, the idea was that you watch videos,
528
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.840
but not that you have like a
conversation viallum and written. And because
529
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.760
loom on the free account has like
a four or five minute break, like
530
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.239
you can do five minutes and that's
it. People eggs, especially people who
531
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:46.119
love to take the long winding road
when they explaining idea. They really have
532
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:50.280
to like get a little bit more
sucthinct. So you also good. It's
533
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:55.159
a good in its strength. Yeah, exactly. Cool. So and the
534
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:00.199
other thing, which also you can
start with Google doc and then have the
535
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.519
initial discussion there and then move it
to a meeting and kind of shortened the
536
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.000
meeting because everybody's on the same page. I think Amazon does it that.
537
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.880
They like you had a document and
then at the beginning of the meeting everybody
538
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:14.800
reads document and only then you start
discussing. Yeah, I think one of
539
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:19.119
the biggest I think advocates of these
kind of like meetings is Amazon and people
540
00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:22.119
like that, where it's basically like
the meeting is there to make a decision,
541
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:23.599
and so if you're making the decision, you should have all the evidence
542
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:28.920
in information prepared ahead of time and
then that way all you're doing is debating
543
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.239
the decision you're making, because that
is something where often being real time with
544
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.920
is actually important, because it's like
hey, a bunch of people are going
545
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:39.559
to have different tasks and responsibilities based
on the decision you it's much harder to
546
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:43.519
do that a synchronously and I guess
you can set a deadline. Hey,
547
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.119
everybody have it by midnight GMT,
and then we'll make a decision. The
548
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:50.119
next morning everyone will have assignments in
the ring box or something. But like,
549
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:54.920
there's certainly like that decisionmaking is particularly
effective and helpful way to to make
550
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:59.599
decisions, while a lot of this
other stuff, like ideating and considering,
551
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.480
like rate offs and things like that
could certainly be a synchness. So far
552
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:07.559
we've talked a lot about a synchness
communication, but what about when you start
553
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.960
to be in a hybrid environment?
I've always personally felt, having worked in
554
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:15.039
person fully remote and hybrid. I've
done all of them at a bunch of
555
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.840
different size companies. Hybrids the worst
of both worlds in my experience. And
556
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:23.119
yet most companies are embracing that because
some people like cannot wait to get back
557
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:29.480
in the office. They love being
around their team members, having the routine
558
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:31.039
of I go in the office,
this is where I do work, I'm
559
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.840
focused and then when I leave the
office I'm home with my kids and I
560
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.400
do my think there are a lot
of reasons why people love coming to the
561
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.480
office, but it's not I don't
know any companies where everybody came back.
562
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:45.079
That is like more than like ten
employees. So for people heading into that
563
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.960
hybrid environment, what should they be
looking out for and how does maybe some
564
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:58.039
advice we've talked about change. So
the big question is why does the office
565
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:02.599
exist for your company? And it's
totally fine to say we have an office
566
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:07.679
because we want that the people who
are very social don't have to go to
567
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:12.280
a coffee shop but actually can go
to an office and like we provide whatever
568
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:16.920
coffee shops provide for them in the
office. Or we understand that people don't
569
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:22.800
want to work at home because not
everybody has a dedicated room where they can
570
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:28.079
hide from their kids. Yeah,
maybe they have a flatmate who's also in
571
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.719
sales, and if you have two
people haveing sales calls in the living room,
572
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:36.840
like, you're going to go crazy
pretty quickly. So like offering if
573
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:42.639
the office is there so that people
who need somewhere to work. But then
574
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:46.480
the perk of the office is actually
having a place to work or to meet
575
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:52.480
other people. It's not the pivote. The the pivotal place where processes happen,
576
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.719
and I think that's what currently a
lot of companies are still struggling with.
577
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.920
If you have a hybrid company,
your processes and your workflows need to
578
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:07.079
be as if you were remote.
So basically, their office needs to be
579
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.199
like a second screen. When you
have one, it's great because it makes
580
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.719
your life like a little bit more
comfortable, but if suddenly you have to
581
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.599
move your computer somewhere else and you
only have one screen, it doesn't mean
582
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.760
that you stop working or that your
work is worse. And so for us
583
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.679
at class, for example, because
we have an office in talent and some
584
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:30.199
people go to the office, be
it because they are hiding from their cats
585
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:35.719
or whatever reason. If we have
meetings, everybody dials in on their computer
586
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.480
with their headphones, like we don't
have three people in the meeting room and
587
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:43.480
then the others on this screen,
and like this type of hybrid where you
588
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:46.320
have some people in person and then
other people are lost on the screen because
589
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:51.559
on the people on the screen they
get they don't hear like the side conversations
590
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:53.960
that happen in the room. They
can't really say hey, people, can
591
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.039
you please listen to me because they
are with like sixteen others on the screen,
592
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:01.280
like it's in doesn't work, or
rather it puts people on a very
593
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.320
unequal playing field and then this correct
case it's actually visually even an under equal
594
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:12.519
playing field. So just make sure
that pretend your remote and then if some
595
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.960
people sit in the office while you
pretend your remote, that's fine, and
596
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:19.159
then when you have to shut down
the office yet again, it doesn't matter,
597
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.920
like it doesn't disrupt your flow.
Yeah, it's a very good point.
598
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:25.679
I've worked at companies where they'll have
this big long, like conference room
599
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.840
table, like you don't like a
board rooms, and then they have a
600
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:32.480
camera and like a big screen TV
and the camera looks at everyone. And
601
00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:36.920
so what's funny is if you have
a bunch of people on Zoom and a
602
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.960
bunch of people in the room.
It was always really awkward because, because
603
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.039
it's like those side conversations and stuff, it be very hard to switch from
604
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.400
people in the conference room talking to
the people on remote talking. Yeah,
605
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:50.400
and so that was weird. And
then, on the other hand, if
606
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.480
you were the only person remote,
it was all so weird because then you're
607
00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:59.920
like on forty, forty inch TV. You're enormous and so like there's this
608
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.599
other flip where like you dominate the
room and it's really awkward because you like
609
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.039
looking up at this person a look
enormous and I've been on both sides.
610
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:09.880
I've intimidated people unintentionally when I was
there, yeah, on the big screen,
611
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:12.679
and then I was in the room
and that's when I rose. Oh
612
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.159
Man, it's weird when it's just
one person on that gigantic screen. triestingly
613
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.360
enough, these conference rooms are optimized
for the people in the room, correct,
614
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.400
correct, absolutely are never optimized for
the poor person who stuck on the
615
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:28.239
screen, because the people who could
create and designed these rooms, they are
616
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:32.599
never on the screen. Yeah,
exactly, exactly. I do know.
617
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:37.039
There is this one tool of this
little APP called Ors, a little piece
618
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:39.679
of hardware. It's a caught a
meetingum I remember they came out a few
619
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.960
years ago. They were trying to
solve this so they put it in the
620
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.199
center of the Conference Room Table and
then it had a whole bunch of cameras
621
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:51.000
around the top of the device.
So we literally try and chop up everybody
622
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:54.119
in the conference room to have each
person individually on a camera. And so
623
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.519
it's solved part of the problem,
but I don't think. I think it's
624
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.199
still probably struggled with the whole like
who's turn is to talk and stuff,
625
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:05.480
because there's so many subtle things that
come across in person that like you just
626
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:09.480
know when someone wants to say something
and unless you're like really learning body language.
627
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:14.079
Like one of my favorite tips is
if someone has their their fingers,
628
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.159
their hand touching their mouth, that
usually means they have something to say because
629
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:20.960
they're literally physically holding back saying yeah, well, like someone was talking.
630
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.920
That's probably your best thing to look
for remotely, but one a lot of
631
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:25.719
people don't know how to look for
that. So hopefully you pick up that
632
00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:30.039
tip today, but to there's a
lot of other more subtle queues where people
633
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:31.719
don't always necessarily put their hands to
their mouth, where they still have something
634
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:37.400
to say. That's just ten times
easier to pick up in the in the
635
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:39.440
conference room than it is in remote. And when you have that hybrid it's
636
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:43.199
just so easy to get going in
a circle with all the in person people.
637
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:45.840
In the remote people never really get
that pause they were looking for to
638
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:50.280
raise their hand. Yeah, that's
very true. So that's when, I
639
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.559
think it was the first meeting that
I had at clouds was like this and
640
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:57.559
then, yeah, we never did
this again. Nice. So it's you
641
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.400
tell them they can we get everybody
on individual cameras, or what did you
642
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.880
do? How? No, example, how did that? How goes you
643
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.400
have that meeting? It was awkward
and and now, like for all the
644
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.119
managers out there who are in a
similar spot, like I love, let's
645
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.599
be a bird on your shoulder,
like, how did it go to actually
646
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.880
try and get them to like recognize
the problem and change how they were doing
647
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:20.519
things? Actually, like at that
point, that was the first time that
648
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.119
it actually happened to me. So
I was on the screen and everybody else
649
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.880
was in the room and I came
on the screen and I was like,
650
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:29.880
what are you doing in this room
and they were like, we having a
651
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.840
meeting. Notes like yeah, but
I'm not having a meeting with the room.
652
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.480
Yeah, so like, why don't
you all go to your and actually
653
00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:42.679
I don't remember if we split up
the meeting and everybody went back to the
654
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.159
computer or if we then the second
meeting that on the computer. And that's
655
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:54.000
the second get invest into good headphones
and microphones, like people, because the
656
00:42:54.159 --> 00:43:00.599
thing is with microphones whether your headphones
are good in terms of you hearing the
657
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:07.000
other person. But a very few
people actually record themselves to hear the usually
658
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:13.559
a trecious quality of their mics,
because most of those gaming mics, they
659
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:19.280
were not made for you to sound
clear and crisp as you're having a sensitive
660
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.639
conversation, like they were made so
that you can scream while you're killing like
661
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:28.639
some monster on screen, like they
pick up everything and it's not a good
662
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:30.800
experience for the other person on the
other the side, and what is very
663
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:37.480
often underappreciated, if you have a
conversation with somebody who sound is really bad,
664
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:42.320
it puts you on edge, like
it raises a little bit distress level
665
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.079
in the room, and that's fine, for your first meeting, maybe even
666
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.320
for a second meeting, but for
the eighth meeting of the day, want
667
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:53.360
to kill the other person. Yeah, so like good audio and like the
668
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:58.800
one that I'm currently using, it's
like sixty dollars, like you don't have
669
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:02.760
to invest like four hundred euros for
each of your workers. But make sure
670
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.960
that they have a good headphone and
that they, if they are not sure,
671
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.840
record yourself with those ear butts that
you think are so cool and then
672
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.599
think if you would like to listen
to yourself for eight hours with that audio
673
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:22.119
quality. Absolutely, and maybe a
quick loom video when you're explaining to someone
674
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.480
is a good time, because it
sound like that's a great point and I
675
00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:27.079
think one of the cool things I've
heard a lot of startups, especially due
676
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.199
as perks, is they're giving people
a budgets to really make remote work work
677
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:34.280
for them. So I'm curious.
We've talked about headphones and microphones. Is
678
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.880
there anything else you think is an
important kind of starter kit for anybody who
679
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.280
is either partially remote or fully remote, if they have a little bit of
680
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.239
budget from their company or they're willing
to invest in themselves. So if you
681
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:47.199
depends a little bit on the if
you have a really big budget, get
682
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:52.679
a really fancies chair, okay.
If you don't have a big budget,
683
00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:57.679
get a Yoga Ball, okay,
which is, I don't know, seventeen,
684
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:01.119
twenty ballers or something, and you
get it at your local sports or
685
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:05.800
so that you can actually shift.
You probably don't want to sit on that
686
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:07.960
thing the entire day, but like
from time to time for half an hour
687
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:12.480
or that, that makes a real
difference. And if you can get a
688
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.519
standing desk, like something where you
can actually sometimes stand and sometimes it like.
689
00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:21.440
The thing is you don't want to
be static on a kitchen's share for
690
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.159
eight hours a day because, yeah, I know we are all still young
691
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:29.360
and fit, but this will change
and your back will not thank you if
692
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.920
you're have spent like ten years of
your life on a kitchen stair chair.
693
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:37.800
For I haven't. I have an
Ikea, how you call this in English,
694
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:42.400
bookshelf, and I simply have to
screen in the bookshelf and then I
695
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.199
like put a longer shelves and so
I can stand there. So it's it
696
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:50.920
was way cheaper than a standing desk
because basically the screen is also our TV
697
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:53.800
whenever when I'm not working so there
are I have a standing this with with
698
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:59.320
that idea shelf, and then I
have a yoga ball for when I don't
699
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:02.079
want to stand. So I basically
move back and forth between a normal chair,
700
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:07.800
the yoga ball and standing and like
having this variety actually is really helpful
701
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.880
and the Yoga Ball is really good
for your course strength. So absolutely I
702
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.039
get that, because we're like that, going moving. Yeah, if you
703
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.320
can't afford the treadmill desk, the
yoga balls could compromise exactly. Treadmill desk
704
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.239
like for me the problem is not
that much to budget but the space.
705
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:24.840
Oh, yeah, absolutely, that
would be. I mean that it is.
706
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:30.400
Don't know anyone who actually has a
bigger house. Yeah, I actually
707
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:32.000
don't know anyone who has a treadmill
dusk, but I've seen somebody adds for
708
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.559
it. I assume somebody's done it. I just can't imagine actually walking and
709
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.320
typing. I would just wouldn't be
able to do it. But that's on.
710
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.159
I have been on zoom calls with
people who were on a desk and
711
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.679
I think it's just as because they
walk very small, slow and it's not
712
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:52.400
like they're right. They're like yeah, actually walking very slow and I guess
713
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.199
on the Yoga Ball I'm also like
a little bit Bouncy, so it's probably
714
00:46:54.239 --> 00:47:00.599
the same impact. Absolutely, absolutely
so, coming full circle, we've talked
715
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.039
about a lot of different things today. If a manager is thinking, Mommy,
716
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:08.119
we got a lot of work to
do with our suddenly forced into it
717
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:12.920
remote or hybrid team, what do
you think are the two or three biggest
718
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.360
things that are the first baby steps
towards some of the bigger stuff we talked
719
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:19.760
about today that managers could do?
What could they go and either do themselves
720
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.119
or talk to their team about in
the next couple of so the first thing,
721
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:23.440
I think, is make sure that
you have those one and once in
722
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:28.760
your agenda and that you don't skip
them just because you are stressed, because,
723
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:30.360
from a manager point of view,
like I get it, you have
724
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:34.440
sixteen people that report to you,
so you spend the entire day in meetings
725
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:37.679
and you just like so tired of
is. But for you individual contributeds,
726
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:42.800
that's often the only real meeting that
they have per week apart from the team
727
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.840
meeting. So, depending on their
role, they actually this is the one
728
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.440
time where they can actually talk about
what is going on in their life with
729
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:54.519
somebody without feeling like they're stealing the
time from someone else. So don't skip
730
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:59.639
those meetings like it's important, and
it's even more important for the other person
731
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.440
that then it is for you.
And then do a meeting, our audit,
732
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:07.320
like which of those meetings in your
agenda should not be? There can
733
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.559
be shorter, like just because Google
things and meeting should be an hour or
734
00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:14.519
thirty minutes doesn't mean it have to
be an hour thirty minutes. You can
735
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:21.039
perfectly will have fifteen minutes meetings.
There is no there's no law against short
736
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:25.320
meetings. And start declining meetings,
and not just decline and then leave it
737
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:30.719
at that, but actually decline and
then send an email afterwards and explain why
738
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:34.840
you declined, especially when you decline
people who are hierarchic, like on a
739
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.639
lower level than you are, so
that it doesn't sound like, Oh,
740
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:39.119
I don't want to talk to you, but more pay like I want to
741
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.599
give us both space to get our
work done. So can you give me
742
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:46.840
more influent I can give you my
opinion or and then, Oh, and
743
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:51.079
block out your lunch break as a
meeting. So no, but that out
744
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:53.199
there meeting into your lunch. Yes, no, those are great. I
745
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:57.840
think we've given people a lot of
food for thought today, so thank you
746
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.519
for joining me today, Valentina,
and I will make sure to load up
747
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.360
the show notes today and the the
further readings so that you can check out
748
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:06.800
some of these books and things we
talked about today, because I think there's
749
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:10.960
a lot of food for thought here
and certainly gives people some great things to
750
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:15.559
start to work on to improve their
remote or hybrid situation. So thank you
751
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.559
again, Valentina. It was really
fun to experiments like people should make more
752
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:22.960
experiments. It's good if they don't
work out. You just learned absolutely this
753
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:28.320
has been the creating high performing teams
podcast and we'll talk to you next time.
754
-->
1
00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:05.280
Hi Ruin. I'm Jason Vanished of
Lighthouse and this is the creating high performing
2
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.080
teams podcast. We have an awesome
guest today, Valentine, a Turner,
3
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:15.640
who is a remote leadership expert.
She is both a facilitator helping companies to
4
00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:19.839
update and adjust their process of practice, is to collaborate remotely, and she
5
00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.120
lives this every day as the head
of product at Klaus, which is a
6
00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:28.039
company that is also working remotely.
So Valentine has done some awesome stuff on
7
00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:31.440
the lighthouse blog with us before helping
us with advice we could share with all
8
00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:35.479
of you about mastering remote work,
which obviously has become a bigger deal for
9
00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:40.679
everybody, with covid making everyone suddenly
be remote. That being said, being
10
00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.600
a good manager and leader in a
remote environment is simply not just a matter
11
00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.679
of turning all of your in person
meetings into zoom meetings. I think we've
12
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:51.280
all probably learned over the last two
years that doesn't actually work out so well.
13
00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:55.679
So, as we enter a year
two or three of this journey and
14
00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:59.439
to so many of us becoming remote
and many companies now starting to have a
15
00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:03.520
mixed hybrid set up, I wanted
to bring on someone on the show that's
16
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.400
an expert in this to talk about
how you can handle remote and hybrid situations,
17
00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:11.319
how you can master a Syncretis,
communicate and a lot more. So
18
00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:12.599
we're very excited to have you on
the show today, Valentinea. Thanks for
19
00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:19.000
joining us. Thank you for having
me. Cool. So one of the
20
00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.200
biggest shifts, I think, in
remote work, and I mentioned in the
21
00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.480
introduction, is this idea of this
meeting could have been an email has never
22
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:27.840
been more true. No one wants
to be on zoom eight hours a day,
23
00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:34.079
and so the answer people often advocate
for is asynchronous communication. But what
24
00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:38.040
does that actually mean? What is
a synchronous communication actually entail, and how
25
00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.040
can someone tell whether this meeting should
be an email? Is a time to
26
00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.879
say hey, we shouldn't have that
meeting, or or asynchronous communication as the
27
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:51.640
right tool for the job? So
let textbook definition of asynchronous communication is I'm
28
00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:55.040
sending your message and you get back
to me whenever you have time. And
29
00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:59.840
then some companies interpret this as we
need an answer within an hour and others
30
00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:04.079
say you can just answer, let's
say in the next twenty four hours.
31
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.280
Like some companies have really strict ruled
about it. But the idea is you
32
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.719
don't need to be in the same
space, in be that physical or virtual,
33
00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:19.120
to actually have a conversation and to
exchange your viewpoints. Now this whole
34
00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:23.639
idea of this meeting could have been
an email. Actually there it's a it's
35
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:29.520
a step further, because if you
think the meeting should have been an email,
36
00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:37.319
you should send an email afterwards,
because on your computer you're basically not
37
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:43.039
only competing with an email, you're
competing with instagram and WHATSAPP. You're competing
38
00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.000
with everything, because it's all on
the same computer. Like at least when
39
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.879
you had people in the meeting room, they had to pretend to be like
40
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.560
there, but now they can put
off video and if it's a bigger meeting,
41
00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.560
you don't know whether they're actually still
there right the if you feel like
42
00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.280
you're losing people in the meeting,
then you need to actually stop and say,
43
00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.719
okay, what are we doing here? And there are different, different
44
00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:07.759
topics that you can look at.
Is the topic actually relevant and we need
45
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.240
to discuss this now, or do
I want to set up a google doc
46
00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.000
and everybody can just put in their
comments when they have a quiet time and
47
00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.960
they are really focused does. Everybody
here needs to be in the meeting,
48
00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.319
because the problem with a meeting is
only the people who are in the meeting
49
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:28.120
can speak up and only the people
who actually enjoy speaking up in meetings are
50
00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.120
going to speak up. So you
lose the input from people who are on
51
00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:37.599
vacation or who, for whatever schedule
Shenanigans, can't be there, and you
52
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.199
lose the voice of the people who
are not super comfortable speaking up when there's
53
00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:44.960
thirteen other people on the call.
Yeah, I think that last one is
54
00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.639
a big one. It's interesting how
remote flips some of that, where introverts
55
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:53.400
certainly have a much harder time,
I think, participating live, and especially
56
00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:59.080
brainstorming style meetings or ones where it's
harder prepare and advance, and certainly would
57
00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.120
still probably have the same challenges if
you're all on a zoom together in the
58
00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:05.680
moment and trying to like raise your
hand, like I know, once a
59
00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:10.080
zoom gets to a certain size,
I don't know. For me that line
60
00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.400
feels like it's probably somewhere. I'm
seven or eight people. It's just like
61
00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:15.120
a possible seven yard. How can
I even raise my hand to get to
62
00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.920
say anything unless you have like someone
who's extremely diligent about like calling on people.
63
00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.600
It's very easy for one or two
people to absolutely dominate, talk over
64
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.399
people, or even not even mean
to, but like you never feel like
65
00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:29.839
you had a pause long enough for
you get it, to get to speak.
66
00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.639
Yeah, and I think the problem
here is actually the technology, because
67
00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:38.040
it's too easy to simply call a
zoom call, which means because if you
68
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:42.079
had to call a meeting and reserve
the meeting room and make everybody move within,
69
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.439
you put like more care into preparing
the meeting. If you have a
70
00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.759
meeting in person, there's usually an
agenda involved. There are so many meetings
71
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:51.720
now on zone. Let's just have
a quick zoom call and there is no
72
00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.759
structure, there's no agenda to it. Nobody really knows WHO's in charge and
73
00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:00.360
body really knows what is actually what
is being discussed, and this makes the
74
00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:05.600
zoom fatigue even worse, because you
feel like you're swimming without a clear guideline
75
00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.879
in the Sea of information and don't
know what to do with all of this.
76
00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:14.079
And you can actually mitigate that with
structure. Like one thing is prepare
77
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:15.920
the meeting. Don't just call a
meeting, but prepare the meeting. And
78
00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.920
sent the agenda and advanced, especially
if they are introverts on the team,
79
00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:25.519
because if they know the topic and
know the questions I've been asked answered,
80
00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:28.439
then you can actually do that.
And then, if there's more than eight
81
00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.480
people, use breakout rooms like you
don't. Ever, not every discussion needs
82
00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.399
to be had between fifteen people.
You can perfectly well say, okay,
83
00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:39.879
we'll just going to split up for
ten minutes in groups of four and then
84
00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.800
we'll come back and see what came
up in these groups. Yeah, those
85
00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.560
are two very good, good pieces
of advice. Are the two things.
86
00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:48.040
I don't know how that there's one, have an agenda, which I think,
87
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.639
frankly, in person or remote,
you should have that. It too
88
00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:55.600
many companies, too many teams don't
have it. And then number two is
89
00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.560
absolutely if you have a really big
group, I think first of all you
90
00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.600
should ask yourself if you want to
do one in the meeting, because it's
91
00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.600
meetings are expensive. If you look
at the value per hour of all your
92
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.319
employees, especially for those you listening
who have lots of knowledge workers on your
93
00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:12.839
team, it's very expensive to have
fifteen people in a meeting if they don't
94
00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.360
actually need to, especially when it's
the case of actually like a five minute
95
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.959
download or debrief with them afterwards or
then being c seed on the email of
96
00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:23.199
the recap of what happened gets them
almost everything they need out of the meeting.
97
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:26.040
Having all fifteen people in the meeting
is a lot. So if you
98
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.120
are going to have that, you
want to make it very useful and make
99
00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:31.839
sure you get their input, which
means then you're suggestion of breakout rooms,
100
00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:36.560
which is actually in zoom much easier
than in in like physical practice. would
101
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.399
be much harder to be in a
giant conference room at work and be like
102
00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:44.079
actually, let's go take over to
other conference rooms. But Zoom can obviously
103
00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.399
infinitely divie, and so that's actually
a great particular suggestion and you can make
104
00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:50.800
the two ways like you can make
it at random and just mix them as
105
00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:55.399
a zoom, because zoom has this
like random allocation, or you can actually
106
00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.319
especially if you have you bring to
like different departments or different parts of the
107
00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.079
company together. You can think already
before the meetings who do I want to
108
00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.000
put in touch with each other and
be like, okay, I want one
109
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.800
marketing person and one developer on in
each of these groups, and maybe also
110
00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:15.279
like you can actually mix and make
sure that and nobody really because it's nobody
111
00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:17.759
feels like they put into a room
with somebody they don't want to be in
112
00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.519
a room with, because it's not
a room, like it's just a break
113
00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:26.680
room. So you can actually put
people together strategically to also, sometimes you
114
00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:30.360
just know this person at this other
person have very different view, so let's
115
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:31.800
them, put them in a breakout
room and see what happens then, because
116
00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:35.920
they are going to communicate a lot, like very different if there is no
117
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.879
audience. So you can actually use
a meeting to bring people closer together and
118
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.480
then in the meeting being more productive
by putting them into the safe space,
119
00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:48.160
which just a two or three instead
of seventeen or whatever people, because then
120
00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.560
everybody's just watching how the show goes
down. Oh, I love that.
121
00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:55.279
That is one of those things where
it's like there's all these little clever things
122
00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.399
that I think really great leaders do, and clear you thought that way.
123
00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.360
I think as a product leader,
I'm sure you understand that idea of cross
124
00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.040
functional collaboration. Oh yeah, we're
so. I was in product before I
125
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.160
started lighthouse as well, so I
totally appreciate that, but I think that's
126
00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:11.160
one of those little subtle things where
it's, if you zoom out far enough,
127
00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.399
like an average or poor manager can
look very similar to a great manager.
128
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.560
But it's all these little things like, Oh, I'm gonna have a
129
00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:20.079
really good agenda. How long did
it take you to make an agenda?
130
00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.319
I know for me at this point
I can make a good agenda for a
131
00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.000
meetium five, maybe ten minutes,
and so once you get good at that,
132
00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.519
it's like those little five and ten
minute things, like thinking, mom,
133
00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:30.600
not you can hit a random breakout
room. Let me think about who
134
00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.759
I want to make sure I pair
together and spending a couple more minutes here
135
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.720
and there. Those little things actually
compound and add up together when you are
136
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.039
thawful like that. And then,
in the end, five million minutes before
137
00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.879
you finished a meeting, do like
an official. This is what we are
138
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.399
taking away from the meeting. HMM, so that somebody who spaced out,
139
00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.440
and you will always have people who
space out. You, yeah, hearing
140
00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.399
the meeting, actually knows what the
result of the meeting is, and then
141
00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.559
send this out as and like we
talked about this and this, especially if
142
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.840
there were decisions being made, and
we decided this and this, and maybe
143
00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:03.919
even put it into a public place, like not only any email, where
144
00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:07.399
you're basically siloid to the people who
are on the Ya thread, so that
145
00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.600
people who maybe didn't make it to
the the meeting can just read it and
146
00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:13.159
be like Ayah, that's fine,
or no, no, that you like
147
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.639
you'd only forgot about this other thing
and hectually actually have an option to speak
148
00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:24.120
up afterwards. And that's a way
how you can like add asynchronicity to your
149
00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.320
meetings, because, yeah, the
thing was asynchronicity is there is a lot
150
00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:33.240
of companies, like a lot of
experts who talk about asynchronous communication and remote
151
00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:37.519
come from companies that have been remote
forever, which means they had a lot
152
00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.799
of experience. But these companies also
have a certain biased towards people who love
153
00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.799
to write and hate to be on
called. That's why they are remote and
154
00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.840
that's why they are synchronous, because
the founder doesn't like calls, or they
155
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.480
were from the very beginning, one
in Sweden and the other one in in
156
00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.720
Canada, whatever, and they didn't
have another chance. But so these expert
157
00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.519
are biased, and now we put
all the people who actually loved being in
158
00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:05.519
the office and tell them, oh, you should not have any meetings anymore,
159
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:07.840
and that doesn't work either. So, especially if you have a hybrid
160
00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:13.159
team, you need to find a
balance where the people who actually think in
161
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.840
writing have the option to actually write
down their thought and actually discuss their thought,
162
00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.480
maybe in writing, but where you
don't leave the experts feeling out of
163
00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.120
the loop because they actually think through
talking through that points, because some people
164
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.279
actually develop their ideas as they are. I call it rubbert ducking with someone
165
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.159
else. So you need to give
them disappearent opportunity as well. Oh,
166
00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.639
absolutely, that's a very good point. In it at like we see it
167
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.799
every of Lighthouse we've been remote and
then we were in person and or we
168
00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:45.840
were remote again, and it's funny
to see how different people thrived in different
169
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.720
scenarios. I know for myself.
Fortunately I've learned to be a chameleon because
170
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.200
of being a product person, but
it's I know the designer on our team
171
00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.879
does some of his best work when
he and I just are on a call
172
00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:00.360
and he has like sketch open and
we try stuff together and like the feedback
173
00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.200
I give him there. I know
he likes much better than the feedback.
174
00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.080
I give him a synchronously. Yeah, because he can ask me follow questions
175
00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.320
a week. What did you sorry, you said you like that. You
176
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.840
didn't like that way. What part
did you actually what did you mean by
177
00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.279
that? And we can lege into
and he'll literally sometimes make like hot fixes
178
00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.360
and changes there. But then there's
other people on the team that it's some
179
00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.080
of the marketers on our team and
stuff. They very much prefer, let's
180
00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:24.080
say, Hey, they write for
a living, so let's say it.
181
00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.639
Let's just right for our communication as
well. And so, yeah, you
182
00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.919
do notice that different people respond differently, and I think like realizing that it's
183
00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:37.120
we're not trading all of our screw
drivers for hammers, to recognize when to
184
00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.919
use each of them and when actually
using both as actually maybe better than any
185
00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.120
one individually. And I think that
also what makes a good leader, like
186
00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.679
to understand whom of your tea in
your team needs what. And one example
187
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.720
there is you need one and once, and that's one of the things and
188
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:56.440
remote work that I'm that's a hill
I'm going to die on. You need
189
00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:58.440
to like weekly or at least bi
weekly, one and once. You need
190
00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.200
to talk to you people, because
you don't see what's going in their lives
191
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.519
by like these random interactions in the
office. So you have to put a
192
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:11.279
liberal of structure into it, and
one thing is doing like asynchronous check ins
193
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.480
on slag or teams or whatever,
where people just put in what they do
194
00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.240
in the day today, but like
once the week get together, even if
195
00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.000
it's half an hour, and just
talk about not only about what's going on
196
00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.679
in work but also what is going
on in their lives because they are working
197
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.200
from home. If their kids dot
can't go to school because the micron is
198
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.720
all around, then this will impact
their work, whether you want that or
199
00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:37.519
not. So you need to know
that. And then if somebody really wants
200
00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:41.480
to like just talk, then you
talk. But if somebody opens up a
201
00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:46.960
lot more in a chat one and
one, you can absolutely mix it up
202
00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:50.320
and from time to time do one
and ones that are synchronous, but you're
203
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.200
writing on a Google dog or you
discussing something on a Google dog. Yeah,
204
00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.679
you don't need there is no one
size fits all and has to work
205
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.039
for everyone, and you can experiment
and it's much easier to experiment in a
206
00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.639
remote environment than in an office environment. Yes, absolutely, I think that's
207
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.279
a really good point, especially the
more you, as a leader, can
208
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.639
adapt a little bit to your team
and recognize that there are different styles,
209
00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:15.080
the better. I know, I'm
not sure. Are you familiar with the
210
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.200
idea some people kicked around maybe about
a year or two go, about manager
211
00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.960
read me's No, okay, so
the way manager read me's work is that
212
00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.200
the idea was, hey, what
if I wrote up a guide about like?
213
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:28.159
However, you use it like a
man use a manual about yeah,
214
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:33.159
exactly. Its was at was very
polarizing debate. I personally, I actually
215
00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.320
sit on the fence on it to
some extent. I appreciate the idea of
216
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.159
telling people that, because I know
there's things I repeat every person I've ever
217
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.919
managed. There are like a handful
of concepts and values I have that are
218
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.559
like, Hey, I need you, just stick to these if you these
219
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.320
are my third rails. Like one
of them is manage my expectations. It's
220
00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:50.120
if something goes wrong personally and professionally, all I need to do is tell
221
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.600
me and we'll figure it out together. They only time you're truly in trouble
222
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.720
is if you hide from me and
don't say anything and I have to chase
223
00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.360
you down. That's the only time
you'll get in trouble with me and the
224
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:01.399
first thing going to tell you is, hey, if you just manage my
225
00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:05.759
expectations, we would have done x
and y sooner. But I also understand
226
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:07.519
from other side, like you're talking
about, one of the challenges I think
227
00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:11.600
of read me, and why I
know some people, especially on twitter,
228
00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:13.519
are very passionate about them being the
wrong way to lead, is that it
229
00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.679
can create that one size fits all
management where this works best for me,
230
00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.559
so I only hire and want to
work with people who do it exactly my
231
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.759
way. You definitely don't want to
be that way. You want to recognize
232
00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.960
where your team's at and and try
and at least meet them halfway on some
233
00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.639
stuff, like I understand that sometimes
people may make asks that are a little
234
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.480
further than you can really accommodate,
but you should look for some things where
235
00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.840
you can meet them like, for
instance, I know for the introverts on
236
00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.679
my team I make absolutely sure they
get the agenda ahead of time. That
237
00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:41.639
way they know what I want to
talk about, they have a chance to
238
00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.440
think about it and they can prepare. And I know that there are other
239
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.399
people that are totally fine with us
kind of going a little more winging it
240
00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.360
and just running through what's going on. Adapting to the people. I think
241
00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.279
is an important thing to call out. So I wanted to highlight that fact
242
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.679
that you can tell your teams some
guard rails, but you should also try
243
00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.759
and adapt to your team. Yeah, actually, like I work, because
244
00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:03.919
I I work in a very international
team, like Klaus is an company from
245
00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:05.679
Estonia. So, like we have
a lot of Estonians in the company,
246
00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.919
but we also have people from Britain, from Portugal. I live in Spain,
247
00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.039
but I am German. So I
work a lot with the culture map
248
00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.559
by Aaron Meyer, and she actually
has a tool online where you can on
249
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:22.200
the eight different like she has eight
different categories where you can slaught yourself in
250
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:26.080
and then they are always like extra, like extra word and introvert, like
251
00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.240
you have like a sliding scale.
And the interesting thing about this tool is
252
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.720
that when I worked at automatic,
which is a very American infused company,
253
00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:41.240
I was always being told that I
was very direct and very bold, and
254
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.159
now I work with like people from
the Netherlands and they tell me I'm very
255
00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.799
soft spoken and very direct, and
it's not that I changed, it's just
256
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.919
because it depends how you compare to
the other person. So I think the
257
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:58.440
problem with the read me files is
a little bit that you show your position
258
00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.600
but you don't really have the comparison
from where the other person is looking at
259
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:07.320
you. So it might actually be
a better idea to like create a read
260
00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:11.679
me file and discuss it with the
other person and then ask questions. Okay,
261
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.600
you say that you want direct feedback. What does direct actually mean for
262
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:21.279
you, and where do you want
it and how do you want it?
263
00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:25.600
And are there like do you want
maybe direct feedback, but you want it
264
00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.039
written because you won't don't want me
to tell it to you. I'll be
265
00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:33.679
staring at my face since I'm criticizing
you. These like little things that often
266
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.320
get lost in these conversations, but
they're very important because it's not only like
267
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.200
how am I, but how am
I when I interact with you? Absolutely
268
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.639
it's a very good point and I'll
make sure for people listening I'll get a
269
00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.240
link from Valentine about the culture map, so you can check that out in
270
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.559
the show notes. Going back to
asynchronous communications, so, like you said,
271
00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.519
I think it's a lot easier if
you're like remote first, and you've
272
00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.200
always been doing this stuff. I
think it almost naturally happens, both from
273
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.600
the perspective of you start doing it
from day one, so it's ingrained in
274
00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:07.519
the culture as well as you probably
hire people who are predisposed. If I
275
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.319
recall correctly, automatic has had a
practice of like really making their hiring process
276
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:17.200
make sure you're comfortable with writing a
lot and like how you interact with the
277
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.680
team in the interview process is actually
very written driven. Yeah, yeah,
278
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:25.279
no, there are no calls until
you're hired exactly, and so knowing that
279
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:29.200
that's one way you can end up
embracing remote. But for companies making the
280
00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:33.359
transition, I think that's the larger
audience of the world of managers who may
281
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.839
be struggling with this. So let's
say we've got a manager here who's listening
282
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.480
the podcast and their company has been
remote because of covid there the looking like
283
00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:47.119
they're going to at least stay partially
remote for the foreseeable future and they're dying
284
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:51.200
and zoom meetings. So how would
a manager like that maybe starts implement some
285
00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:56.400
asynchness communication, which should they be
doing foundationally to start to transition maybe some
286
00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.279
of those meanings away or some of
the things they're doing haphazardly to and brace
287
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.599
a syncretis communication in a company where
they're used to. Hey, we were
288
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.359
always in the office together and were
used to that world. HMM. So
289
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.000
there's one thing is for the people
who really enjoy because there are people who
290
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.119
really enjoy being like on no video
called the entire day, is to offer
291
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.640
this as an option and not as
a mandatory thing for the team, and
292
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.480
there are a lot of different programs, like you don't need to use zoom
293
00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.160
for that. Way You people can
like walk in and out of it like
294
00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.599
a coffee room or something, and
just work together and heavy this feeling with
295
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.079
somebody else is working with them.
But in general, and I recommend that
296
00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:36.640
for managers, by actually recommend that
for anyone who has more as we meetings
297
00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:41.000
per week, is do every three
months, do a meeting audit and basically
298
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:47.200
delete. Well, you probably can't
physically delete them, but take a completely
299
00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.480
free agenda and for every single meeting, think about is this meeting first?
300
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:57.359
Is this meeting actually necessary? And
for that you can look in past meeting
301
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:03.400
notes. If there are no past
meeting notes, try to remember what you
302
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.519
talked about the last three times.
If you can't remember that. Why the
303
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.279
heck are you having that meeting?
Yeah, like it obviously isn't adding any
304
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.680
Vailue. The only the only exception
there is one in once, like the
305
00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.319
one, and one should go into
your agenda, yes or yes because,
306
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.960
and then probably a team meeting and
a one in one with with your own
307
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:26.839
mayor. But everything else there are
different kind of meetings. There meetings where
308
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.319
you make a decision. Those need
an agenda, those need like clear your
309
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.079
information where people can look before then. And then there are meetings that are
310
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:38.160
brainstorm that and there is a huge
debate whether you can brainstormings. Actually better
311
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:44.440
asynchronous than synchronous, but there you
can lose stuff like mirror or its to
312
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.680
like structure that. And then there
are meetings where people just talk to define
313
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.119
that they're going to have an ex
meeting, and those meetings you want to
314
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:55.079
get them, them out of your
agenda, out of your diary. And
315
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.079
then the more difficult things. Actually
how do you need to learn to decline
316
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.200
meetings, because the problem is people's
are not meeting invites when they're stuck,
317
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:11.079
because it's much easier to quickly ask
for a meeting then to formulate a clear
318
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.400
question and send out that question.
So you just, you just invite three
319
00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.519
people to a meeting and then these
flee people say yes. Why? Like
320
00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.960
just because Google made the button for
yes bigger than the buttom for. No.
321
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.200
It's an invitation, it's not a
citation. This is not like you're
322
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:30.440
not being cited for a judge or
something like. It's an invitation and you
323
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:37.400
can decline invitations and starting to actually
decline invitation to yourself and then maybe send
324
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.160
an email say hey, I decline
this invitation because I already have six meetings
325
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.319
that they and I know that I
won't be able to add any value for
326
00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:47.920
this. Can you give me a
summary so I can tell you my opinion
327
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.720
ahead of time and then you can
take this like into consideration, or and
328
00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.359
also telling other people's I'm inviting you
for this meeting, but if you want,
329
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.240
you can send me your opinion in
an email and you don't need to
330
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.880
come to that meeting, which also
helps you to figure out who in your
331
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.519
team actually enjoys the meetings and who
in your team prefers not to have them,
332
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:11.920
and then to force that. We
have two meeting free days at clous
333
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.319
declared like Wednesdays. And Friday are
meeting three days. That doesn't mean that
334
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.359
no one has meeting on the days, but we don't do group meetings on
335
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:21.440
that day. So if you want
to do a oneonone on that day,
336
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.000
that's totally fine. But there are
lots of people who have both days completely
337
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.039
blocked in their agenda for meeting and
that's fine because it's component. That means
338
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:33.160
if you want to do more meetings, like there is no space in the
339
00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:36.279
agenda. And if there's no space
left in the agenda, people actually start
340
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.759
thinking about which meetings do I not
meet? And that's what yere. You
341
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:45.519
want to get away from this automatic, I'll just call a meeting situation,
342
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.119
but the actually have people think about
whether they want to call a meeting.
343
00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.440
Yeah, if forces, it's a
forcing function of creating a budget. Essentially,
344
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.039
yeah, you can only have sixty
percent your week consumed by meetings.
345
00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.319
Exactly. I know I have a
number of friends who are in that executive
346
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:06.359
to middle management layer and they absolutely
run into this challenge of like, I'm
347
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:08.839
in meetings eight hours a day,
every day and it's awful and my brain
348
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:14.160
is just over overloader with with crap, and so having those no meeting days
349
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.839
is equally as affected for like your
engineer, who just wants it a pure
350
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.920
day of unadulterated focus and getting in
a zone, as it is actually for
351
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.920
managers, where I think one of
the taxes that managers don't think about is
352
00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.920
when you're in these meetings all day
like, you don't get other things done,
353
00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:33.039
and those other things are often long
term thinking, strategic decision making,
354
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:38.079
sir, and research, looking beyond, looking beyond this this week to future
355
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.920
weeks and maybe even doing some of
this creation of being like, actually,
356
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:45.480
I have thirty minutes free to look
at my counter for the rest of the
357
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.359
month and see what meetings I can
get rid of. HMM. And it's
358
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.839
something that needs to start from above. If doesn't, if you're a manager
359
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.279
or an executive, it is your
duty to start this movement. Absolutely a
360
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.880
leadership by example is huge here,
because certainly if you show it's safe to
361
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.200
decline meeting it, it means the
rest of the team can't. And then
362
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.559
if you also show, Hey,
I'm not just declining ignoring you, I'm
363
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.799
declining and asking for more infos so
that I can add a sentence or two
364
00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:17.960
of input. I have found,
especially with like engineers, who are just
365
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.920
prefer to focus, often get hey, I'm going to sit down with our
366
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:23.960
designer. Do you want to join
this meeting? And they often say no.
367
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.559
But please keep in mind this and
this constraint and if you come out
368
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.559
of the meeting with technical questions that
you think affect your design decisions, either
369
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.680
a will have a quick call just
to talk about those or be present me
370
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.960
the two options and we'll talk about
which is better based on that and like
371
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:47.119
that two sentence constraint. Just save
them both thirty to sixty minutes city in
372
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.720
the meeting and all the interruption of
their daily flow. Because we're all are,
373
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.039
you know, layhouse of global we
can't just be like, oh,
374
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.200
we're only going to have meetings in
the morning because my morning is someone else's
375
00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:02.279
after Ye, who's morning? Yeah, up exactly. So we've talked about
376
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.480
sure, what the positives here and
like how to transition to you, but
377
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.519
what are some of the pitfalls and
problems of asynchronous communication? One of the
378
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.279
biggest pitfalls, I think, is
that people are not used to writing stuff
379
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:18.279
down and a lot of people are
scared of writing things down because if you're
380
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.559
in a meeting and we are talking, I can see on your face whether
381
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.680
I'm hitting the mark or not,
and if you're very confused or if you're
382
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:30.000
my manager and you start to look
like angry, like I can't mitigate that
383
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.720
as I'm wiggling my way through the
meeting. And if you've writing, you
384
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:40.599
don't have that immediate feedback. So
you really need a culture of psychological safety
385
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.480
for people to write down opinions.
It's very, very easy for people to
386
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.359
write down one plus one is too
m but do you prefer green or blue?
387
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:53.400
Is already like more, more difficult
question, because there's no right answer.
388
00:24:53.880 --> 00:25:00.559
And so by actually modeling what's this
writing, and by also asking easy
389
00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.359
questions as you transition to a more
written focus and giving clear structures, like,
390
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.079
if you want somebody to write up
a summary of a meeting, give
391
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.079
them a cheat sheet on how a
summary should look like, because if you
392
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:15.720
tell somebody, can somebody here do
meeting notes, the amount of people who
393
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.039
don't know how meeting notes work and
then you get like this, five pages
394
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:25.160
of verbal written down basically as if
you had a strengs surph yeah, thing,
395
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:29.680
yeah, and this requires again from
the company, from the manager side,
396
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.240
is certain type of you can learn
how to write well, like this
397
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.880
is not rocket science, but you
need to learn it. You were not
398
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:41.240
born with this and if you come
from a very oral culture, will company
399
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.799
culture side, then it's normal that
you don't know this and it's fine,
400
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.440
but you can learn this and then
like actually giving people the opportunity to try
401
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.519
it, to fail, to learn
what I really is having people doing meeting
402
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:57.519
notes in a Google dog and then
I go through the the Google doc and
403
00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:03.279
basically cross out half of it and
then comment why I crossed these things out.
404
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:07.000
So I don't only correct what I
see, but I actually explain my
405
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.599
thought process and then you'll you do
like five, four, six times,
406
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.160
and then people can be used to
Oh, I really don't have to write
407
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.759
down everything and it's fine if I
summarize something, and it's okay if this
408
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.880
is not entirely clear, because I'm
the idea is not that you judge somebody
409
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:29.640
for what they have writing, but
actually writing is just one way to express
410
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.559
what's going on in your brain,
and that's valid where something is going on
411
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.279
in your brain with hope. So
starting this conversation is is fine, and
412
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.039
then always telling people, look,
if we're discussing on a google dog or
413
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:47.559
in confluence or whatever, until we
finalize this document and we are all happy.
414
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.880
This is work in progress. It's
fine like and you can change your
415
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.079
mind, and actually it's good if
you change your mind, because it's neat
416
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:57.680
it need. It means you have
taken new arguments into your thought process.
417
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:03.319
There's nothing worse than somebody who never
ever changes their opinion, because it means
418
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.759
they are basically absolutely rigid and don't
learn. Absolutely and I think one of
419
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.599
the most important things to call out
there is just the fact that, like
420
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.920
hey managers, one of your jobs
to be a coach, and coaches give
421
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.480
feedback and they give praise and positive
reinforcement, and so you may not think
422
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:25.000
that meeting notes is an area you
should be spending time on, but it's
423
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.000
actually a high leverage area for you
to invest your time, because if everyone
424
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:34.160
on your team knows how to take
good notes and they're there may be some
425
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.480
flexibility, but if there's some level
of standardization, it makes it easy for
426
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.640
the whole team to start to develop
a share culture and language on how these
427
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.720
go. So it's actually a very
high leverage thing for you to do,
428
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.440
to invest in teaching your team how
to do these things and invest time and
429
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.440
showing them what makes good notes and
what doesn't. HMM. And it's also
430
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:57.359
it's a transferable skill because if you
can have a one hour meeting and synthesize
431
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:03.839
this in two paragraphs, you can
then have a threehour interview with the customer
432
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.880
and get down out like the three
grains of wisdom that you need for the
433
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.160
product organization like this, like the
whole idea of Oh, we don't need
434
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:18.039
meeting nude, that meeting notes,
this is too much writing. Yeah,
435
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:23.519
but it's a great way to practice
skills and then at some point you don't
436
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.160
need it for it, because it
is true you don't need meeting notes for
437
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.720
every single meeting, but it's a
great way to practice taken good notes and
438
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.480
actually helping people to transfer what they
hear into something that is written down.
439
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.759
Yeah, do you have any favorite
resources? Maybe we can link too in
440
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.119
the show notes. There is a
book which is some Tis of writing well,
441
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.759
which is like from the s or
six days, so that you like
442
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:47.519
it's or maybe not that old,
but yeah, I'm probably with the book
443
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.799
linked to it old, but it's
really good and I think I have another
444
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.960
two or three books that I can
send the links to you afterwards, but
445
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.880
they on writing list. The one
that I constantly recommend because it's so it's
446
00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:02.799
a very quick read. Like ignore
that. He completely, like it is
447
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.039
from the area are it is from. Yeah, but like the when it
448
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.480
comes to how to write, the
advice of Somel. Yeah, totally.
449
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.359
That's always one of the funny things. Like it's amazing how many times,
450
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:15.279
how many times books right there.
Actually, my favorite copywriting book was written
451
00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.799
in like one thousand nine hundred and
forty five. And what's Hilarious is if
452
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:22.000
you read it through the Lens of
what he talks about for a full page
453
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:26.240
magazine Ad why, it's like exactly
like a laney page. On the air.
454
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.680
It absolutely and as soon like got
halfway through the book and started thinking
455
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.599
that way and I started thinking about
all the web pages that I knew that
456
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.160
were relatively well designed, and I
was like, Oh, it's all the
457
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.559
same and just so I love those
kinds of books that like, I think
458
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.680
it's the sentelp calls them. They're
lendy there, more than twenty years old,
459
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.200
but the advice is timeless. So
that's great. We'll make sure you
460
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:48.559
flude some links to that kind of
stuff, because certainly we want to give
461
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.160
you a good place to start,
because certainly if you're going to coach your
462
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:52.920
team on how to get better at
these we want to make sure you start
463
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.519
with a good foundation and maybe have
some things you can point your team too
464
00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:02.279
as well. So, Um,
think about some of these pitfalls of asycrenis
465
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:07.599
communication. So giving them feedback is
one way to make sure and making sure
466
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.640
you have notes in general and their
good notes are one way to mitigator.
467
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.200
Are there any other things that the
manager should look out for that are pitfalls
468
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.160
for a secretis communication and, in
particular, how to then avoid those?
469
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.359
Check who's participating and WHO's not participating? Okay, and that's then something that
470
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720
you can look at in one and
once. And I don't mean that everybody
471
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.799
needs to participate at the same level, but if there are people whose voice
472
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:38.279
you never hear or read, then
it's I think it's worth digging into.
473
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:42.519
Why is that or what is actually
happening there? And maybe they are just
474
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:48.480
they need like a smaller group to
actually participate, or maybe something is wrong
475
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.119
and they're completely disconnected from what they
are doing, which can also happen,
476
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.039
which can happen because simply they feel
lost or because they have stuff going on
477
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:00.279
in their private life that hopefully you
are aware because you have one on once
478
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:06.519
with them. But there is an
interesting you can actually analyze who participates how,
479
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:10.839
for example in your slack and create
like it looks a little bit like
480
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:14.920
a spider web and figure out who's
communicating with whom and who's maybe on the
481
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.640
edge and who's like very important,
etc. Dr Katterina Bullock Carbonet I can
482
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.079
also like this. Her company does
this for a living. Basically, they
483
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:29.359
help you analyze the communication patterns within
your company and it's very interesting because if
484
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:33.920
you understand and the communication pattern in
your company, you can also you see,
485
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.559
are there risks like step burke,
for example, one or two people.
486
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:41.759
If they leave, then you don't
have a company anymore because everything goes
487
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.559
through them. Or are there people
that never talk to anyone and you're like,
488
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.759
oh, they might be on turn
risk because they're clearly not really invested
489
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.680
in what they're doing anymore. So
you can look a lot of these things
490
00:31:52.759 --> 00:32:00.039
up through the communication that's happening,
and you can do this with data analysis
491
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:06.200
or you can just check, like
who is doing who's never writing anything personal
492
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.279
in their checkens, or who is
never writing their checkens on that you have
493
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.960
the asynchronous chickens that you have,
or who is only ever talking on one
494
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.960
topic and seems not to be at
all aware that this other topic is also
495
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.000
going on. So like having a
little bit of pulse on what is going
496
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:24.680
on. It doesn't mean you have
to read everything, which after a certain
497
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:29.720
size at a company is completely not
viable, but getting an idea at least
498
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.880
for the people that report to you
how engaged they are. And that doesn't
499
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:38.160
look engagement. Is this this fuzzy
thing where I because I don't think you
500
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.759
company needs to be your family or
your best friend either. In the end,
501
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.920
like it's a job that you do
because you want to pay your rent.
502
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:50.319
But there's still you still want everybody
to like be comfortable and to be
503
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.759
participatory, not twelve hours a day, but definitely whatever they need to get
504
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:59.200
their job done. Yeah, so
we talked about how you may have a
505
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.000
group meeting and you realize that some
of the people on the team would actually
506
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.559
participate better a synchronously, whether it
be sharing a couple of thoughts before the
507
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.200
meeting or shortly thereafter. So that's
a great way to take an in person
508
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:13.880
meeting and make it asynchronous or remote
friendly. But what about going the other
509
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:15.559
direction? Do you talk about like
maybe some extroverts, of people who like
510
00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:20.279
to work things out live? What
can you do for them if, essentially,
511
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.680
that meeting either never happened or it's
become a synchronous and you're finding that
512
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:28.400
person is a participating in a written
format? What what has worked very well
513
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:32.359
with me is using loom videos.
Oh Nice, because, and we actually
514
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:37.880
started this because somebody wanted to like
do a screen share with a product idea,
515
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:40.240
but it was impossible to get because
of time zone difference. Like we
516
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:45.519
didn't find the way to actually be
on the same goal. So they made
517
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.480
a video for me and then the
good thing with loomas that you can actually
518
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.160
comment on the time stamp, which
makes it very easy to then have the
519
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:59.559
other person talks and then you've ride
your thoughts as your watching the video and
520
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:02.960
they can and it's it creates this
very interesting, very hybrid way of conversation.
521
00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.640
And then they would send me video
after video and I would send them
522
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:09.719
back like comments on the video.
So it was like one person was able
523
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:14.239
to talk and the other was because
I work better and writing and the other
524
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.599
way person was able to write back. So that work pretty well. And
525
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:21.639
that's the thing why you can and
remote. You can experiment so much because
526
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:25.199
they are so many tools by now
out there that you don't necessarily need to
527
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.480
use as they are described. Loom, the idea was that you watch videos,
528
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.840
but not that you have like a
conversation viallum and written. And because
529
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.760
loom on the free account has like
a four or five minute break, like
530
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:43.239
you can do five minutes and that's
it. People eggs, especially people who
531
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:46.119
love to take the long winding road
when they explaining idea. They really have
532
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:50.280
to like get a little bit more
sucthinct. So you also good. It's
533
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:55.159
a good in its strength. Yeah, exactly. Cool. So and the
534
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:00.199
other thing, which also you can
start with Google doc and then have the
535
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.519
initial discussion there and then move it
to a meeting and kind of shortened the
536
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.000
meeting because everybody's on the same page. I think Amazon does it that.
537
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.880
They like you had a document and
then at the beginning of the meeting everybody
538
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:14.800
reads document and only then you start
discussing. Yeah, I think one of
539
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:19.119
the biggest I think advocates of these
kind of like meetings is Amazon and people
540
00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:22.119
like that, where it's basically like
the meeting is there to make a decision,
541
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:23.599
and so if you're making the decision, you should have all the evidence
542
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:28.920
in information prepared ahead of time and
then that way all you're doing is debating
543
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:32.239
the decision you're making, because that
is something where often being real time with
544
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.920
is actually important, because it's like
hey, a bunch of people are going
545
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:39.559
to have different tasks and responsibilities based
on the decision you it's much harder to
546
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:43.519
do that a synchronously and I guess
you can set a deadline. Hey,
547
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.119
everybody have it by midnight GMT,
and then we'll make a decision. The
548
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:50.119
next morning everyone will have assignments in
the ring box or something. But like,
549
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:54.920
there's certainly like that decisionmaking is particularly
effective and helpful way to to make
550
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:59.599
decisions, while a lot of this
other stuff, like ideating and considering,
551
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.480
like rate offs and things like that
could certainly be a synchness. So far
552
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:07.559
we've talked a lot about a synchness
communication, but what about when you start
553
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.960
to be in a hybrid environment?
I've always personally felt, having worked in
554
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:15.039
person fully remote and hybrid. I've
done all of them at a bunch of
555
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.840
different size companies. Hybrids the worst
of both worlds in my experience. And
556
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:23.119
yet most companies are embracing that because
some people like cannot wait to get back
557
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:29.480
in the office. They love being
around their team members, having the routine
558
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:31.039
of I go in the office,
this is where I do work, I'm
559
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.840
focused and then when I leave the
office I'm home with my kids and I
560
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.400
do my think there are a lot
of reasons why people love coming to the
561
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.480
office, but it's not I don't
know any companies where everybody came back.
562
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:45.079
That is like more than like ten
employees. So for people heading into that
563
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.960
hybrid environment, what should they be
looking out for and how does maybe some
564
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:58.039
advice we've talked about change. So
the big question is why does the office
565
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:02.599
exist for your company? And it's
totally fine to say we have an office
566
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:07.679
because we want that the people who
are very social don't have to go to
567
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:12.280
a coffee shop but actually can go
to an office and like we provide whatever
568
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:16.920
coffee shops provide for them in the
office. Or we understand that people don't
569
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:22.800
want to work at home because not
everybody has a dedicated room where they can
570
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:28.079
hide from their kids. Yeah,
maybe they have a flatmate who's also in
571
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.719
sales, and if you have two
people haveing sales calls in the living room,
572
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:36.840
like, you're going to go crazy
pretty quickly. So like offering if
573
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:42.639
the office is there so that people
who need somewhere to work. But then
574
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:46.480
the perk of the office is actually
having a place to work or to meet
575
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:52.480
other people. It's not the pivote. The the pivotal place where processes happen,
576
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.719
and I think that's what currently a
lot of companies are still struggling with.
577
00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:00.920
If you have a hybrid company,
your processes and your workflows need to
578
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:07.079
be as if you were remote.
So basically, their office needs to be
579
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.199
like a second screen. When you
have one, it's great because it makes
580
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.719
your life like a little bit more
comfortable, but if suddenly you have to
581
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.599
move your computer somewhere else and you
only have one screen, it doesn't mean
582
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.760
that you stop working or that your
work is worse. And so for us
583
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.679
at class, for example, because
we have an office in talent and some
584
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:30.199
people go to the office, be
it because they are hiding from their cats
585
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:35.719
or whatever reason. If we have
meetings, everybody dials in on their computer
586
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.480
with their headphones, like we don't
have three people in the meeting room and
587
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:43.480
then the others on this screen,
and like this type of hybrid where you
588
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:46.320
have some people in person and then
other people are lost on the screen because
589
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:51.559
on the people on the screen they
get they don't hear like the side conversations
590
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:53.960
that happen in the room. They
can't really say hey, people, can
591
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.039
you please listen to me because they
are with like sixteen others on the screen,
592
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:01.280
like it's in doesn't work, or
rather it puts people on a very
593
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.320
unequal playing field and then this correct
case it's actually visually even an under equal
594
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:12.519
playing field. So just make sure
that pretend your remote and then if some
595
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.960
people sit in the office while you
pretend your remote, that's fine, and
596
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:19.159
then when you have to shut down
the office yet again, it doesn't matter,
597
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.920
like it doesn't disrupt your flow.
Yeah, it's a very good point.
598
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:25.679
I've worked at companies where they'll have
this big long, like conference room
599
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:29.840
table, like you don't like a
board rooms, and then they have a
600
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:32.480
camera and like a big screen TV
and the camera looks at everyone. And
601
00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:36.920
so what's funny is if you have
a bunch of people on Zoom and a
602
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.960
bunch of people in the room.
It was always really awkward because, because
603
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.039
it's like those side conversations and stuff, it be very hard to switch from
604
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.400
people in the conference room talking to
the people on remote talking. Yeah,
605
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:50.400
and so that was weird. And
then, on the other hand, if
606
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.480
you were the only person remote,
it was all so weird because then you're
607
00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:59.920
like on forty, forty inch TV. You're enormous and so like there's this
608
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.599
other flip where like you dominate the
room and it's really awkward because you like
609
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.039
looking up at this person a look
enormous and I've been on both sides.
610
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:09.880
I've intimidated people unintentionally when I was
there, yeah, on the big screen,
611
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:12.679
and then I was in the room
and that's when I rose. Oh
612
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.159
Man, it's weird when it's just
one person on that gigantic screen. triestingly
613
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:20.360
enough, these conference rooms are optimized
for the people in the room, correct,
614
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.400
correct, absolutely are never optimized for
the poor person who stuck on the
615
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:28.239
screen, because the people who could
create and designed these rooms, they are
616
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:32.599
never on the screen. Yeah,
exactly, exactly. I do know.
617
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:37.039
There is this one tool of this
little APP called Ors, a little piece
618
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:39.679
of hardware. It's a caught a
meetingum I remember they came out a few
619
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.960
years ago. They were trying to
solve this so they put it in the
620
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.199
center of the Conference Room Table and
then it had a whole bunch of cameras
621
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:51.000
around the top of the device.
So we literally try and chop up everybody
622
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:54.119
in the conference room to have each
person individually on a camera. And so
623
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.519
it's solved part of the problem,
but I don't think. I think it's
624
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.199
still probably struggled with the whole like
who's turn is to talk and stuff,
625
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:05.480
because there's so many subtle things that
come across in person that like you just
626
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:09.480
know when someone wants to say something
and unless you're like really learning body language.
627
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:14.079
Like one of my favorite tips is
if someone has their their fingers,
628
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.159
their hand touching their mouth, that
usually means they have something to say because
629
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:20.960
they're literally physically holding back saying yeah, well, like someone was talking.
630
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.920
That's probably your best thing to look
for remotely, but one a lot of
631
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:25.719
people don't know how to look for
that. So hopefully you pick up that
632
00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:30.039
tip today, but to there's a
lot of other more subtle queues where people
633
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:31.719
don't always necessarily put their hands to
their mouth, where they still have something
634
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:37.400
to say. That's just ten times
easier to pick up in the in the
635
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:39.440
conference room than it is in remote. And when you have that hybrid it's
636
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:43.199
just so easy to get going in
a circle with all the in person people.
637
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:45.840
In the remote people never really get
that pause they were looking for to
638
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:50.280
raise their hand. Yeah, that's
very true. So that's when, I
639
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.559
think it was the first meeting that
I had at clouds was like this and
640
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:57.559
then, yeah, we never did
this again. Nice. So it's you
641
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.400
tell them they can we get everybody
on individual cameras, or what did you
642
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.880
do? How? No, example, how did that? How goes you
643
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.400
have that meeting? It was awkward
and and now, like for all the
644
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.119
managers out there who are in a
similar spot, like I love, let's
645
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.599
be a bird on your shoulder,
like, how did it go to actually
646
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.880
try and get them to like recognize
the problem and change how they were doing
647
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:20.519
things? Actually, like at that
point, that was the first time that
648
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.119
it actually happened to me. So
I was on the screen and everybody else
649
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.880
was in the room and I came
on the screen and I was like,
650
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:29.880
what are you doing in this room
and they were like, we having a
651
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.840
meeting. Notes like yeah, but
I'm not having a meeting with the room.
652
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.480
Yeah, so like, why don't
you all go to your and actually
653
00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:42.679
I don't remember if we split up
the meeting and everybody went back to the
654
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.159
computer or if we then the second
meeting that on the computer. And that's
655
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:54.000
the second get invest into good headphones
and microphones, like people, because the
656
00:42:54.159 --> 00:43:00.599
thing is with microphones whether your headphones
are good in terms of you hearing the
657
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:07.000
other person. But a very few
people actually record themselves to hear the usually
658
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:13.559
a trecious quality of their mics,
because most of those gaming mics, they
659
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:19.280
were not made for you to sound
clear and crisp as you're having a sensitive
660
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.639
conversation, like they were made so
that you can scream while you're killing like
661
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:28.639
some monster on screen, like they
pick up everything and it's not a good
662
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:30.800
experience for the other person on the
other the side, and what is very
663
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:37.480
often underappreciated, if you have a
conversation with somebody who sound is really bad,
664
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:42.320
it puts you on edge, like
it raises a little bit distress level
665
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.079
in the room, and that's fine, for your first meeting, maybe even
666
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:49.320
for a second meeting, but for
the eighth meeting of the day, want
667
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:53.360
to kill the other person. Yeah, so like good audio and like the
668
00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:58.800
one that I'm currently using, it's
like sixty dollars, like you don't have
669
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:02.760
to invest like four hundred euros for
each of your workers. But make sure
670
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.960
that they have a good headphone and
that they, if they are not sure,
671
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.840
record yourself with those ear butts that
you think are so cool and then
672
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.599
think if you would like to listen
to yourself for eight hours with that audio
673
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:22.119
quality. Absolutely, and maybe a
quick loom video when you're explaining to someone
674
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.480
is a good time, because it
sound like that's a great point and I
675
00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:27.079
think one of the cool things I've
heard a lot of startups, especially due
676
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.199
as perks, is they're giving people
a budgets to really make remote work work
677
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:34.280
for them. So I'm curious.
We've talked about headphones and microphones. Is
678
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.880
there anything else you think is an
important kind of starter kit for anybody who
679
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.280
is either partially remote or fully remote, if they have a little bit of
680
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.239
budget from their company or they're willing
to invest in themselves. So if you
681
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:47.199
depends a little bit on the if
you have a really big budget, get
682
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:52.679
a really fancies chair, okay.
If you don't have a big budget,
683
00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:57.679
get a Yoga Ball, okay,
which is, I don't know, seventeen,
684
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:01.119
twenty ballers or something, and you
get it at your local sports or
685
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:05.800
so that you can actually shift.
You probably don't want to sit on that
686
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:07.960
thing the entire day, but like
from time to time for half an hour
687
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:12.480
or that, that makes a real
difference. And if you can get a
688
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.519
standing desk, like something where you
can actually sometimes stand and sometimes it like.
689
00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:21.440
The thing is you don't want to
be static on a kitchen's share for
690
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.159
eight hours a day because, yeah, I know we are all still young
691
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:29.360
and fit, but this will change
and your back will not thank you if
692
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.920
you're have spent like ten years of
your life on a kitchen stair chair.
693
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:37.800
For I haven't. I have an
Ikea, how you call this in English,
694
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:42.400
bookshelf, and I simply have to
screen in the bookshelf and then I
695
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.199
like put a longer shelves and so
I can stand there. So it's it
696
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:50.920
was way cheaper than a standing desk
because basically the screen is also our TV
697
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:53.800
whenever when I'm not working so there
are I have a standing this with with
698
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:59.320
that idea shelf, and then I
have a yoga ball for when I don't
699
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:02.079
want to stand. So I basically
move back and forth between a normal chair,
700
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:07.800
the yoga ball and standing and like
having this variety actually is really helpful
701
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.880
and the Yoga Ball is really good
for your course strength. So absolutely I
702
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.039
get that, because we're like that, going moving. Yeah, if you
703
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.320
can't afford the treadmill desk, the
yoga balls could compromise exactly. Treadmill desk
704
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.239
like for me the problem is not
that much to budget but the space.
705
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:24.840
Oh, yeah, absolutely, that
would be. I mean that it is.
706
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:30.400
Don't know anyone who actually has a
bigger house. Yeah, I actually
707
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:32.000
don't know anyone who has a treadmill
dusk, but I've seen somebody adds for
708
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.559
it. I assume somebody's done it. I just can't imagine actually walking and
709
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:38.320
typing. I would just wouldn't be
able to do it. But that's on.
710
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.159
I have been on zoom calls with
people who were on a desk and
711
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.679
I think it's just as because they
walk very small, slow and it's not
712
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:52.400
like they're right. They're like yeah, actually walking very slow and I guess
713
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.199
on the Yoga Ball I'm also like
a little bit Bouncy, so it's probably
714
00:46:54.239 --> 00:47:00.599
the same impact. Absolutely, absolutely
so, coming full circle, we've talked
715
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:05.039
about a lot of different things today. If a manager is thinking, Mommy,
716
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:08.119
we got a lot of work to
do with our suddenly forced into it
717
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:12.920
remote or hybrid team, what do
you think are the two or three biggest
718
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.360
things that are the first baby steps
towards some of the bigger stuff we talked
719
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:19.760
about today that managers could do?
What could they go and either do themselves
720
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.119
or talk to their team about in
the next couple of so the first thing,
721
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:23.440
I think, is make sure that
you have those one and once in
722
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:28.760
your agenda and that you don't skip
them just because you are stressed, because,
723
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:30.360
from a manager point of view,
like I get it, you have
724
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:34.440
sixteen people that report to you,
so you spend the entire day in meetings
725
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:37.679
and you just like so tired of
is. But for you individual contributeds,
726
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:42.800
that's often the only real meeting that
they have per week apart from the team
727
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.840
meeting. So, depending on their
role, they actually this is the one
728
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:50.440
time where they can actually talk about
what is going on in their life with
729
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:54.519
somebody without feeling like they're stealing the
time from someone else. So don't skip
730
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:59.639
those meetings like it's important, and
it's even more important for the other person
731
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:01.440
that then it is for you.
And then do a meeting, our audit,
732
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:07.320
like which of those meetings in your
agenda should not be? There can
733
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.559
be shorter, like just because Google
things and meeting should be an hour or
734
00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:14.519
thirty minutes doesn't mean it have to
be an hour thirty minutes. You can
735
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:21.039
perfectly will have fifteen minutes meetings.
There is no there's no law against short
736
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:25.320
meetings. And start declining meetings,
and not just decline and then leave it
737
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:30.719
at that, but actually decline and
then send an email afterwards and explain why
738
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:34.840
you declined, especially when you decline
people who are hierarchic, like on a
739
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:37.639
lower level than you are, so
that it doesn't sound like, Oh,
740
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:39.119
I don't want to talk to you, but more pay like I want to
741
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.599
give us both space to get our
work done. So can you give me
742
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:46.840
more influent I can give you my
opinion or and then, Oh, and
743
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:51.079
block out your lunch break as a
meeting. So no, but that out
744
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:53.199
there meeting into your lunch. Yes, no, those are great. I
745
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:57.840
think we've given people a lot of
food for thought today, so thank you
746
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.519
for joining me today, Valentina,
and I will make sure to load up
747
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.360
the show notes today and the the
further readings so that you can check out
748
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:06.800
some of these books and things we
talked about today, because I think there's
749
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:10.960
a lot of food for thought here
and certainly gives people some great things to
750
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:15.559
start to work on to improve their
remote or hybrid situation. So thank you
751
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.559
again, Valentina. It was really
fun to experiments like people should make more
752
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:22.960
experiments. It's good if they don't
work out. You just learned absolutely this
753
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:28.320
has been the creating high performing teams
podcast and we'll talk to you next time.
754
-->
