When Chaos Feels Like Home: Healing From High-Conflict Family Cycles with Dr. Tracy Hutchinson

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A gentle heads up.
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This episode explores high conflict parenting and family trauma.
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So please prioritize your well-being and feel free to skip sections or pause if you need to.
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Welcome to Coping with Ghosting, the podcast that provides hope, healing, and understanding for anyone who's been ghosted, betrayed, or hurt in relationships.
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I'm your host, Gretta, a certified post-betrayal transformation coach.
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Today we're venturing into a topic that has affected many of us, high conflict parents and family members, and how they can impact our adult relationships, self-worth, and sense of safety.
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We'll also be looking at estrangement versus ghosting and why making meaning is a vital part of the recovery process.
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Joining me to deep dive into all of this is Dr.
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Tracy Hutchinson, psychotherapist, professor, and author who specializes in narcissistic, sociopathic abuse, and family trauma recovery.
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She has served as an assistant professor at multiple universities and currently teaches at the graduate level at the College of William and Mary.
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Her expertise has been featured in Vogue, the Associated Press, and across television and radio.
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And her latest book is called Adult Children of High Conflict Parents, Find Freedom from Your Past, Heal the Pain of Toxic Relational Trauma, and Cultivate Lasting Self-Love.
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And I read this book and I absolutely loved it.
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I highly recommend it.
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And so thank you so much for being here today, Dr.
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Hutchinson.
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Thank you for having me, Gretta.
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I look forward to it.
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Yes, this is really great.
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I would like to just start off with what are the signs of having a high conflict parent or family member?
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And how can somebody know if they have one?
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Well, a high conflict parent can be, you know, now we have social media and people throw a lot of terms around like narcissism.
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You could have a parent that's an alcoholic.
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But really, if you have a lot of conflict within the relationship over time and it does not get repaired, so think alcoholic, narcissistic, even though you probably wouldn't know it.
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It could be, you know, psych psychopathy or sociopathy, but you probably wouldn't know it.
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But you've had problems with these family members, whether they be your parents or other family members chronically over time.
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Um, it could be overt, you know, so obvious high conflict screaming, yelling, these types of things, but it could also be um covert, so just emotional neglect.
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Um, emotionally immature parents fall under this umbrella as well.
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That's you know a widely used term these days.
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Um, so you know, you you know, it's very possible to have a high conflict parent.
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So, you know, I really started out, you know, when I was doing clinical practice with people coming in with various problems.
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So they would be coming in like, oh, uh, you know, I'm having panic attacks or my anxiety is so high, or I keep attracting this type of person, male or female.
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They keep ghosting me, they keep breadcrumbing me.
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What is the issue?
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What's going on?
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And invariably over time, going into the psychosocial, you know, um, which is like a deep dive into someone's history, you start to uncover um uh themes.
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And many times the client doesn't even know or is aware that they have a dysfunctional family, believe it or not, because there's so much brainwashing that goes on um, you know, within the family, and they actually just think it's normal.
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You know, their friends have families like this, they have families like this, and there is that trauma bond as well that kind of it kind of blinds a person from actually seeing what's really going on and how much harm something has caused.
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My heart goes out to anyone who's experiencing this right now.
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And again, listeners or viewers, if this resonates, take a deep breath because it can be a lot to take in.
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So yeah.
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So, you know, sometimes it just, you know, you start reading a book or you start, you know, seeing something and it becomes extremely triggering because it is it's a lot.
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You've been through a lot in your life, in your upbringing for sure.
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There's no question about it.
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And so if you haven't unpacked that over time, it can be very alarming to your um, we'll call it your IFS, your internal family system.
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So, you know, putting it down, you know, calming down your vagal nerve system with deep breaths, all of it is, you know, necessary.
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Right.
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So how does growing up with a high conflict parent affect people later on in adulthood?
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Like in their relationships, their career, their self-worth, all of that?
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Yeah.
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So uh growing up with toxic family dynamics, I'll just, you know, use that a high conflict parent or, you know, toxic family, this could also be, you know, siblings too.
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And it could be extended family.
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Um, how it can manifest, it can absolutely manifest in low self-esteem, not feeling good enough, low self-worth, settling for relationships that are emotionally abusive.
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Kind of think that it's, you know, normal, or your trauma response jumps in.
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You don't even know what you're tolerating.
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Um, so um, it can affect people in a myriad of ways.
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You know, equally speaking, someone could be extremely high functioning.
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I have a, you know, many of my most of my patients are very high functioning, meaning, you know, uh performing well at their job, moms, dads, you know, taking care of their children, all of that.
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But when they start to uncover things, it exacerbates what's currently going on with their mental health symptoms and, you know, their own feelings of not feeling good enough, feeling completely defective or effed up.
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Um a lot of shame.
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Um, you know, and the body really does keep score.
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That's a book.
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You know, it's a seminal classic by Dr.
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Vander Koelk, um, 2014, 2015.
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And it, you know, he's right, the body literally will keep score.
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So people present in counseling with something they think is unrelated.
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They're too depressed, they're anxious, something's going on, they're attracting all these people, like I said.
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And really, all that all those are trauma symptoms that are stored in the autonomic nervous system.
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And it's really just asking to be healed, to be honest.
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Um, so patterns too, and being ghosted chronically can lead to why am I attracting a person like this?
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And how is that person, perhaps, related to someone similar that I have known in the past?
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Mom, dad, brother, sister, past relationship.
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You know, what's similar about all of this?
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These are like the deeper questions to really like ask and unpack.
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I did a lot of that when I did EMDR.
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Yeah, you did EMDR.
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Excellent.
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Yeah.
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So I do, yeah, trauma therapist.
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So EMDR.
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Yeah.
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Did it, did you find that it worked for you?
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It was magical.
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It is.
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Yeah.
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EMDR is one of the, you know, I mean, the efficacy of EMDR, it just speaks for itself.
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Um, and being able to move through trauma without actually having to speak it is like one of the beauties of it.
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And it does it in a faster pace.
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But as you know, it's intense.
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It's like an intense workout.
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I mean, you know, like a lot of clients are like, oh, you know, I want to do EMDR.
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And it's like, well, I have to assess to see if you're suitable for doing it right now, because you can't just open up all your trauma and let you go home and you can't function at work the next day.
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You know, you've got to have the right coping mechanisms in place.
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Um, but yeah, EMDR highly recommend for adverse childhood experiences, dysfunctional families, all of that.
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But as you know, the work is hard, but it's worth it.
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It's definitely worth it.
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One thing that I noticed is that a lot of people who are growing up in really unhealthy environments, they just consistently get into these jobs, into these relationships where everything feels really chaotic.
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There's a lot of highs and lows and ups and downs, but they don't even recognize it.
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It feels like home.
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It feels normal and natural.
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So for the listener who might not really know the signs of these unhealthy relationships, unhealthy workplaces, like what could they look for?
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What are some of the flags that, oh, maybe, maybe this is something that I need to reflect on and get out of as opposed to settle for feeling like I'm stuck in this turbulent life forever?
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Yes.
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So one thing that is consistent with a dysfunctional, and you're right about the workplace, many times, the universe, I just I talk a lot of things about from a spiritual lens.
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The universe is bringing you, why do I have a toxic work environment?
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Why is it completely chaotic?
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Why is my boss, why do I feel like I'm like on a roller coaster or a hurricane?
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Why is everyone talking behind each other's back?
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Why do I feel like pins and needles when I'm, you know, walking in?
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So one thing across the board, drama.
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There's a lot of drama, whether that's at work, at home, within the relationship, you continuously will feel like you're walking on eggshells or there's roller coasters or hurricanes that are coming.
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They can be covert or over, but trust your trust your gut and trust your system.
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Do you feel at peace and do you feel at ease in your workplace or in your relationship?
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Generally speaking, um, you know, do you feel peaceful?
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Do you feel okay?
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Or are you always on guard and vigilant to what's going on?
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Um, so there's just consistently a lot of drama.
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And here's the thing: growing up in an environment like that, sometimes people don't even know what it's like to have a healthy relationship or to have a peaceful relationship or to have someone really love them unconditionally, you know, show unconditional love or care.
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Many times they find that in their family, you know, their friends that are like family, but they really don't know how to receive that or to even recognize it.
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So I see that a lot in clients during their healing process when they start to get into a healthier relationship.
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Sometimes it's difficult for them to receive that love.
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And also, what's wrong that it's so calm?
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And we're communicating okay.
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And this person has a secure attachment style.
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So they're not all over me blowing up my phone, or they're not, you know, being abusive towards me or neglecting me or saying bad things to me, you know, emotionally abusive things.
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So it's definitely, you know, like a learning, you know, an awareness and a learning curve that develops over time, hopefully, because many people actually stay in the dark about it, sadly.
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Right.
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And it feels almost boring at that point to be in this predictable, healthy relationship.
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You're kind of just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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I'm speaking from personal experience.
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I'm just like, wait, what could go wrong?
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This is good.
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This is such a foreign experience.
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Exactly.
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But it can, you know, uh it can't, it does take some adjusting to.
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Because just think about growing up in that kind of environment where there's a lot of drama, a lot of volatility.
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You know, in the book Roller Coasters and Hurricanes, literally is a um uh a chapter of the book.
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You know, you're constantly and continuously on high alert and you're looking for danger every everywhere you go because you don't know when the next explosion is going to happen.
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But it could be just covert neglect, too.
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Meaning it could be a parent who is depressed and stays in their bedroom and, you know, is completely emotionally neglectful, does not check in at all, maybe you know, provides the givens of existence as far as like, you know, food, security and home, but is not there emotionally, you know, at all during a person's upbringing.
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So all of those factors really.
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Um, you know, the research supports that people actually become hardwired to that kind of drama.
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And it make, you know, there's pluses and there's minuses, just like anything in life.
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One plus about it is many people who grow up in environments like that become uh highly apt in functioning in crisis.
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They can function highly in crisis.
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You see, you do see, I mean, I've seen many nurses, ER doctors, first responders, people like that be able to stay completely calm and they actually attract those professions that many people would not be able to tolerate because they are used to that drama and staying calm.
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They know how to manage that.
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But of course, conversely, um the trauma response is the issue.
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So if let's say your trauma response is fawn, fawn is I'm so sorry.
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What can I do that's wrong?
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Oh, I must have done something, that's why you ghosted me.
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Oh, let me chase a little bit more.
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Your bread crumbing, what did I say?
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What did I do?
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It's a fawn response.
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When in actuality, you know, in dysfunctional dynamics, you didn't do anything wrong, but you're still employing this, the response, your natural response.
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Some people have uh flight, they're they're out of here.
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Flight, gone, working too hard, workaholic, go, go, go, go, go, can't stay in touch with their emotions, freeze.
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Try to have a relationship with someone whose trauma responses freeze.
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You won't feel heard, you won't think that they're listening to you.
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But what when a little bit of drama happens, they go, they're gone.
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And so it's difficult for them to stay present, and that causes a lot of problems in relationships.
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So, really, I mean, it um, you know, it it can be problematic.
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And you don't even know why you're fun, you don't even know why you're apologizing.
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I mean, I just had a client say that recently.
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She's like, you know, someone looked at me when I was apologizing on the phone to this toxic friend and said, Why are you apologizing in this situation?
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And she, you know, kind of like woke up, like, yeah, why am I apologizing?
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This is what I do.
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I just say I'm sorry because it must have been me when actually it's not.
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So that's where self-respect and self-love come in.
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There's so much that you just said that I want to unpack.
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The first thing is a comment.
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I was addicted to apologizing to people.
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I would say sorry for everything and anything.
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I actually have a little hack for that.
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Okay, so there's this thing in a phone, in an iPhone.
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I don't know if it's in other phones, I assume it is, where if you type in one thing, it will autocorrect it to be another.
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So every time I write the word sorry, it switches to thank you for your patience.
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So it immediately reminds me that I don't need to apologize that much.
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Yes, that's a good one.
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Mm-hmm.
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And the other thing is, why do people who grow up in toxic families often feel like they're to blame for everything?
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Like it's always my fault.
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Why is this?
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Because it is.
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Meaning, meaning, growing up in a family system like that, you're consistently gas-lit and you don't even know it.
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So another part, another uh uh chapter in the book is growing up in an emotionally invalidating environment.
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So whether the person is saying it's all your fault that we're fighting like this, or you know, oh, why are you responding like this?
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A lot of children, adult children, and when they're children and adults, they learn to self-soothe themselves because they're not soothed properly, because the parent is often extremely emotionally immature and does not know how to rupture or repair, absolutely does not know how to, generally speaking, consistently validate someone's emotions.
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So people who grew up in that environment often are brainwashed to thinking it is really all their fault that normal emotional reactions that are commiserate to the environment, that an emotionally validating parent would be like, Yeah, of course you feel that way.
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It's often turned around and skewed on you.
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So many people don't even actually know how they feel.
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They don't know how they feel.
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You ask them, uh, what's what what brings that up in you?
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Or, you know, what are you feeling?
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I have no idea.
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Where do you feel it in your body?
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I have no idea.
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I don't know.
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I have no idea.
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And that becomes a part of counseling too.
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So you can actually know what you really feel so you can respond to it and not automatically.
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So there's a lot of, unfortunately, brainwashing and gaslighting that's done emotionally.
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So, you know, people grow up thinking that it is all their fault, and then they're overtly told often that it's all your fault, whether it's from, you know, your the parents or other family members or abusive partners, emotionally abusive partners.
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It's your fault that I'm reacting this way.
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If you didn't do this, then I wouldn't be so blank.
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Got it.
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In your book, you talk a lot about cognitive dissonance.
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Can you share what that is and what it looks like?
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Sure.
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So cognitive dissonance is a state of mind, and this is one of the most important pieces, I think, um, of being in a dysfunctional relationship, dysfunctional family, dysfunctional relationship.
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So um there's research to support cognitive dissonance, let's say, with dating uh people who are high on the dark triad traits of psychopathy and sociopathy, correlated with partners who are generally highly empathic, uh, forgive very easy, have a high sense of loyalty towards people generally, give benefit of the doubt.
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All these conscientiousness traits are very healthy traits in a relationship.
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Just not when you get into a relationship with someone who doesn't have those traits.
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So they're good.
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So then comes the trauma bonding, and here comes the stuckness.
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Okay, I'll just use this, this, but this can be the same as a parent and a child, adult child, child, family member, you know, government workplace.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.960
So cognitive dissonance is okay, so we've been dating for eight months, and you know, he loves me.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.759
Let's do I'll just use male-female in this case.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.039
You know, he loves me so much.
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.319
He's so sweet, like he's so nice, like we went on all these trips together.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.480
Oh, but sometimes he goes missing for two days.
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:49.440
I don't know where he is.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:50.880
He hides his cell phone from me.
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:52.400
Oh, no, but he says that he loves me.
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.960
He invited me to to meet his family.
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:55.680
He must love me.
00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:01.200
Well, no, he didn't because my friend just said that he was on a dating app and saw him.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.440
Goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.160
It's actually quite tumultuous feeling.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:13.839
So it's sort of like being on a lake and you have two, one foot in one canoe and the other foot in another canoe, and you're trying to balance.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:15.759
It's impossible to try to balance that.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.039
So there's cognitive dissonance about the relationship, the good and the bad.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:23.440
The mind keeps going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, which makes it hard to leave.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.079
Cognitive dissonance about the person.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.079
He's so bad, he did this, I can't believe it.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.079
My friends tell me not to date him.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:33.839
Oh no, but he does this.
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.079
Look, he's so successful, he's so sweet to people.
00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:38.400
He does blah, blah, blah but he can't be all that bad.
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.680
And the worst is the cognitive dissonance towards oneself.
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:50.960
So, like in where the research supports, like, you know, in that case, it would be um sometimes highly um successful.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:21:03.119
The research supports women can get into relationships with a psychopath or a sociopath, and the cognitive dissonance for themselves, the research says, would be like, Oh, why is it so hard for me to leave?
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:04.559
I know that he this is bad for me.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.480
Look at all the bad things he's done, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:07.680
You know, how can I do that?
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:08.640
Because I'm so successful.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:09.599
I've done all of this.
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.559
I'm a good mom.
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.039
You know, I'm great in my community, I'm strong, I'm all of this, but why am I so weak?
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.960
So back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, it could be tumultuous.
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:24.400
So that is actually an area that we um focus on in trauma work.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.559
It's the cognitive dissonance about the relationship and the self going back and forth.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:37.359
And it it it really um helps something flourish of staying in a dysfunctional relationship because you just can't really make sense of it.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.039
And EMGR and trauma therapy can help clear that up.
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.839
And so this goes for that, it goes for parents and family.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:47.200
Hear this a lot.
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.279
So someone will be talking about like, oh, how a parent is narcissistic.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.759
And, you know, um, they really do seem to have those traits when you like listen to them.
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.759
But then you'll have uh the friend group or the extended family.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.400
Group say that that's your mother.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.319
My mom's got issues too.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:05.039
We fight.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:06.640
Oh, all moms are like that.
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:08.240
All mother-in-laws are like that.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:13.200
You know, you you know, maybe you should say you're sorry, because all families have problems.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:17.519
And while that's true, there's different levels of family problems.
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:21.359
Um, some are completely and totally dysfunctional and toxic.
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.480
And there is no choice but to estrange.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:28.400
Do it for your own mental health, you do it for your own safety.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.119
You've exhausted everything that you can.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:37.839
And it literally is like poison to stay in contact with someone like that consistently.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:54.319
So you make the the uh decision to estrange, and you know that I talk about that a little bit in the book because that's a very hard decision to figure out what kind of relationship you can have with someone who is dysfunctional or toxic.
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:58.160
That's a difficult subject.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:04.000
I am estranged from a family member, and it it is really hard for me.
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.640
Um, so my you'll see my eyes watering, but I've done a lot of work around it.
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:16.079
I know I'm a good person, and I have to do it for my own um safety, my physical and emotional safety.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:18.000
So that's a hard choice that I made.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:24.640
I do want to like let the listeners know that estrangement is different from ghosting.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:32.559
And that ghosting is the practice of ending a personal relationship with somebody uh without any warning.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.160
It's very sudden and you withdraw from all communication, right?
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:43.519
And I would say in my case, estrangement is a choice that I make for self-protection.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:45.680
That's completely different.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:50.319
My boundaries were consistently violated over time.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:57.359
This person I couldn't unfortunately have a conversation with that they could understand or hear or receive.
00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.920
And it wasn't sudden, like ghosting it.
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:01.920
So I just want to clarify that.
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:07.920
I'd love to hear how you define estrangement and why is it so common these days.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:22.079
So, you know, first, I, you know, I want to say that what I heard you say, and this is so common with clients, is that they don't actually want to estrange from anyone in their family.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:24.960
They don't actually have a choice.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.680
It's so emotionally violent and abusive.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:33.839
You cannot have a conversation, but they actually want to have a brother that's in their life.
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:39.119
They want to have a mother or an aunt or a father or a sister in their life.
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:44.000
But it's impossible because they don't have the proper rupture repair skills.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.480
And oftentimes they're terrorized.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.799
You don't people don't like to hear that word, but look at the word terrorized.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:55.039
You know, terrorized, being bullied, all of that.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.960
And that is something they often say is, you know, but I'd be a bad person if I didn't take care of my mother.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:14.720
I'm still a good person, all of these things because of the guilt that they feel, because you because society tells us and has historically that we should have relationships with people who are our blood.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:25.119
And while we learn the most from our love relationships and our family relationships for sure, you know, we do stick it out, but no one has to tolerate abuse ever.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:37.359
Um, and so I think that people are coming forward and understanding and learning and knowing that you can estrange and it is okay.
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:39.839
You will feel guilty and that's okay.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.160
You know, if you feel guilty, give yourself a pat on the back.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.400
That means I'm choosing self-love and self-respect.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:45.759
Self-respect is the big one.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:46.640
Self-respect.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:50.000
This person is not able to respect me in this conversation.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.720
Like you just said, I can't have a conversation with this person.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:54.559
They just, you know, will not do it.
00:25:54.559 --> 00:26:00.880
So I either choose to dance this dance of kind of like abuse, or I choose self-love and self-respect.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:08.880
You know, if something changes in the future, they start to work on themselves, which is highly unlikely, most likely, and with emotionally immature people, um, that would be a different story.
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.000
So um, you know, that's one of the reasons why.
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:21.119
And I what I'm seeing now is like they're they're calling it a movement, you know, like, oh, everyone's estranging.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:29.279
I see it with my uh older adult clients, with their children, actually, um, that they're estranging from their parent.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:37.279
And oftentimes they're not even giving the parent uh an explanation of why to have even a conversation with them.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.799
The parents willing to go to therapy, they're willing to do anything.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.799
So I see it on two different ends.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:48.160
The an older generation was taught and brainwashed you stick with your family no matter what.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:50.079
It's your mother, it's your father, it's whatever.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:50.799
That's what you do.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:52.240
We don't talk about things outside.
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:55.039
We take care of each other, but there's a lot of abuse going on.
00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:05.119
And then we have a younger generation who are making decisions that they need to, but sometimes making decisions and not really thinking completely through of the whole entire consequence.
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:18.000
You know, like um let's just say that you choose to, you and your husband or wife or partner choose to estrange from parents because they really are narcissistic and they're manipulative and all of that.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:26.720
And then you have children, um, you know, you have to kind of think about well, am I okay with having my children estranged from their grandparents?
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:29.279
You know, am I am I okay with that decision?
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:30.640
Are they just really narcissistic?
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.599
And I can, I can, I don't have to estrange from them.
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:38.400
I can tolerate them on a couple holidays, and my partner can be a buffer or not.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.480
I mean, there's a lot, there's just a lot to consider, you know, with all of that.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:58.480
So talking it out with a therapist or someone whose season is really important, but the decision is yours and you do not, you have permission not to tolerate abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, any type of abuse.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.000
You just don't have to do it.
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.000
Absolutely.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:03.359
Self-respect.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:06.480
Why do you think this is so common these days?
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:13.599
Um, well, I think that people are speaking up about it more.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:25.119
You know, I can tell you that in my getting my master's degree, getting my PhD, I even teach uh counseling and have taught for the last 15 years graduate level counseling.
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:28.640
They don't teach this in graduate level programs.
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.720
They they don't they don't teach this.
00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:39.119
I mean, this problem literally, like many problems why people write books, is people find it out from seeing their patients and clients.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.960
They find it out anecdotally.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.519
For instance, Dr.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:51.599
Vanderkoek, who wrote The Body Keep Score, literally, you know, back in the 70s or the 80s, I think it was the 80s when he was getting his MD.
00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.599
I think he's a psychiatrist.
00:28:53.599 --> 00:29:06.000
Um, you know, he said, well, the the prevalence of I think sexual abuse or incest is like, I don't know, 0.05% or something like that in my textbooks.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.640
And he said, Why are they all sitting in my office?
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.880
So it's about it, it's about with anything that's toxic, there's a lot of shame.
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.880
There's a lot of it only happened to me, so I'm not gonna talk about it.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:26.079
And there's also a lot of I tolerated my childhood, I'm putting it away, and I'm not, I don't need to go back there.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.480
I can't tell you how many clients I've have said the day I turned 18, I left my house.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.319
The eight, my on my 18th birthday, I left my house and I just never look back.
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:38.079
And then later in life, they start to unpack all of this.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:43.119
And they don't usually come into therapy or counseling thinking that they're gonna unpack that.
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:45.680
They they're just like, no, I'm having all these problems.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:46.799
I'm getting triggered.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:48.880
I'm getting, I don't know why I'm getting triggered.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:50.640
I'm getting triggered and I really don't know why.
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.880
And then we start to unpack it, and that's what it is.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:58.319
And they they say, I never wanted to come back, I never wanted to deal with any of that.
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:00.720
Who would want to deal with any of that?
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:01.599
No one.
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:25.839
It's not fun, but it is worth it because, as you know, if you get a good therapist, you get someone who can emotionally validate you and see you for who you are, and actually form a sense of like, you know, unconditional love or positive regard for you and your mistakes and your shame and all of that, and accept you for who you really are, regardless.
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:30.799
And that's what a emotionally validating parent would have done.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:39.279
How can somebody know if they're able to possibly repair a relationship with a high conflict family member?
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:40.960
And what does that look like?
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:44.319
What kind of boundaries could be enforced?
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:50.160
Okay, well, that is really like on a case-by-case basis.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:31:00.720
If you have like a parent that you're having conflict with, you know, and they say obviously, you know, they can say that they're sorry.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:06.880
They could say, you know, I shouldn't have treated you like that.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:11.359
If they can show empathy, they could show perspective taking for you.
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:13.279
They could say, I'm going to get better.
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:15.599
I mean, these are all workable circumstances.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:16.640
I mean, they just really are.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:25.759
If somebody's really trying and they're clueless, but they're trying and they're like, you know, there's just something missing, you know, you might be able to have a relationship with them.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.000
But it really, you know, kind of depends.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.000
You know, I have it in my book, like level one, level two, level three.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:49.599
And then there is the levels of, you know, um, you see that they've reached their capability and they're just not going to change, but they're not completely abusive, volatile, sociopathic, psychopathic, which a lot of people would call like evil or dark or something like that.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:32:03.359
But you just see that they do a lot of like passive-aggressive kind of comments, but yet you want to go to a family function because you want to be around your siblings, or you want to see your cousins, or you want your kids to have a relationship with their grandparent.
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.400
So you really approach that relationship differently.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:10.799
You don't go in it thinking we are actually gonna resolve anything deep.
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.759
You know, we're we're not gonna resolve anything deep.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:16.640
We're just, I'm just gonna manage the relationship.
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:20.559
Manage it and manage it like you sort of would with a child.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:27.440
You're not gonna go into any deep conversation, but hey, we're all getting together and you are gonna drive me crazy.
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:28.319
I already know it.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.160
But what can we do to keep things light?
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:39.279
Let's look at family, let's look at fun family vacation photos, or let's play a game, or let's, you know, you distract them with something, or let's talk about a recipe.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:48.160
I don't know, or let's go do an activity that, you know, you're not really going to go deep with them because they actually do not have the repair skills.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:59.759
They act, they they might not even see it, what they have done, because they were brought up by an alcoholic or narcissistic parent and they're completely shut down, and they haven't that generation didn't go to therapy.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:02.880
It wasn't not as open as it is right now at all.
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:07.839
Going to therapy was, you know, in in a lot of cultures, it's the same way.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:10.319
Going to therapy means there's something seriously wrong with you.
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:11.440
It isn't like that now.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.759
I mean, some people do think that that's just not true.
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:14.880
You know what I mean?
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:22.799
You know, having a therapist is like just, you know, having a doctor or whatever, you're working on yourself, and there's a lot of crazy things that are going on in the world.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:35.039
Um, so it's it's um, you know, I guess you can choose what kind of relationship you could choose, what kind of communication.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:39.039
Maybe you won't do text messing, you won't do phone calls, maybe it'll just be email only.
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:55.359
Maybe you again you have a buffer, maybe there are some, you know, subjects that are absolutely off topic, and that is the end, and that's your boundary, and you can, you know, not engage, but you can, you know, just give quick, just like you did with the you know, reframing on your phone.
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.039
Like instead of saying sorry, you say thank you for your patience, something like that.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.759
You know, um, I'm not this is not up for discussion.
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:03.599
I'm not going to say it again.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.279
Change the subject.
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:09.440
I'm really just here to enjoy your company and to have a good time today.
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:10.880
That's why I'm here.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.440
You know, and then limit, limit.
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:14.239
Yeah.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:16.800
Yeah, that's wonderful.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:20.400
And I highly recommend that everybody read this book.
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.280
Can you say the name of your book again and how people can get it?
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:28.320
Because this is really the guidebook of how to deal with everything that we're talking about here.
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:29.679
It's so valuable.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.199
It's great information.
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:32.079
Thank you.
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:35.440
So uh the book is adult children of high conflict parents.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.119
So you can buy it anywhere.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:42.320
You know, we're a retail bookseller, so Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anything like that.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:47.440
You can um get a hold of me through social media, Instagram, Facebook.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.360
I have a website, www.drtracyhutchinson.com.
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:57.039
Um, you know, all my social media is there, and I'm sure it would be like in the show notes or something like that.
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:05.599
Um, but you know, just to, you know, as a caveat, like to know that, you know, once you pick up the book, you don't have to read the whole thing.
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:12.079
It could take you, it could take people years to read this book or anything that could be emotionally triggering like this.
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:17.519
And your body will tell you, like, whoa, I'm reading this and I'm checking out, like, I don't want to do it.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:19.440
You, you, you, you put it down.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:23.039
You might not look at it for a couple weeks, you might not look at it for a year.
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:33.119
You might look at um, you know, later chapters on like meaning making or spirituality, or, you know, just validating that, you know, you should be angry about the situation.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.440
It's so unfair, or you know, something like that.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:41.280
But to really be, you know, show a lot of self-compassion and self-love for yourself.
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.440
Just having the willingness to heal.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:49.840
I mean, just having the willingness to take the first step to heal, you really already are on your healing journey.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.800
I mean, you really are.
00:35:50.800 --> 00:36:00.719
I mean, it's just a matter of time that, you know, in a synchronistic way, you'll hear another podcast or another book will come to you, or you'll see something on your Instagram, you know.
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:07.920
It, I mean, it will just start to develop and it can take a while, and that's totally okay because this healing does not happen overnight.
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:09.360
Yeah.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:11.119
It definitely doesn't.
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:14.320
And I love the ending of your book.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:20.079
I felt so uplifted and hopeful, and uh it deeply resonated with me.
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:27.840
Uh, could you share why making meaning is so important and how can somebody begin to do it?
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:48.639
So, you know, I think making meaning in any adverse experience in life, and we all have them, it's it's inevitable that we're gonna we're gonna have adverse experiences and challenges that happen, that you will be betrayed in your life, you will have pain and grief and sadness.
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:55.119
Things will happen that are great, but things will happen that you never expected to happen in a bad way.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:57.760
So, how does one get through that?
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:00.320
You've got to find a way to make sense of this.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.800
How can I make sense of something terrible or horrible that I didn't want?
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:12.159
And a lot of times making meaning is using your own spiritual framework or how you think the world works.
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:16.559
I mean, this is one of the powers I have seen in people who heal from their traumas.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:27.039
They have some sort of meaning-making system in place, whether that's a religious framework, oh, the universe, spiritual, whatever it is, karma, this is my karma.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.639
And so, oh, you know, I'm dealing with this because I'm like moving through it.
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:34.960
Whatever it is for you, finding a meaning for it is important.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:39.440
And also, there is a reason for your adverse experiences.
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:46.960
Many times, I mean, I don't know why you started the pro podcast, Grata, but I'm just gonna assume you had some experience with ghosting.
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:47.519
Okay.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:55.280
And so now all those painful ghost ghosting experiences that you had in your life now finding meaning.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:01.360
Hey, I'm gonna start a podcast and I'm gonna start providing solace for people.
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:02.639
Oh, wow.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.679
Like she's talking about ghosting and like talking about these concepts.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:13.440
So you found some meaning and a way to, you know, um, turn something bad like lemons and make it into lemonade.
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:14.880
We can all do that.
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:17.679
Well, all of us can do it, but it does take time to do it.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:34.880
And so if if people don't find a way to make meaning of the bad things that happen or normalize it and know that everyone has bad experiences or adverse experience in their life, they can become bitter, they can become stuck, they won't grow, and they can have a very negative outlook on people and the world.
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:36.559
And it's just simply not true.
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Meaning, the people who've abused you or who have been emotionally immature or toxic or narcissistic, there's plenty of other emotionally healthy people out there.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:52.559
And people who can be there and show up for you, um, say that they're sorry.
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.320
There's a whole other world of that.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:39:00.719
So there is no all of men are like this, or all parents are like this, or all this.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.320
Like that, that's just not true.
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:12.719
So meaning making really helps promote resilience, it helps promote self-respect and self-love, and it helps people um really like self-actualize and grow.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:17.119
And that's really like the whole point of I think us being here.
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:21.039
Yes, yes, times a thousand.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:31.760
I think of the people who are extraordinarily challenging in my life as teachers, and here's what they're teaching me: they're teaching me patience.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:44.559
I get to practice my patience, forgiveness, unconditional love, compassion, deep compassion, because somebody is going through something that I don't understand and but I feel for them.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:46.960
I have more empathy because of them.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:56.239
So it is hard, but when I reframe it all as they're teaching me something, it makes it a little bit more digestible.
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:56.960
Yes.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.440
So that is very true that they actually are your teachers.
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:08.320
And are you really going to learn the things you're supposed to learn in this lifetime if it's all bliss and unicorns?
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:09.119
I don't think so.
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:14.880
If you go to the gym, you know, you don't, you, you don't gain strength and muscle.
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:16.719
You gain it through resistance.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:20.320
I mean, you gain it through um being challenged.
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And so you're growing that muscle.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:32.159
So, yes, difficult people can challenge you to really become more loving towards them unconditionally, actually, um, more compassionate and forgiving.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:38.719
Forgiving is a big one because believe it or not, these people are generally not acting like this on purpose.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:41.599
They are not doing this on purpose.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:43.119
The research supports this.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.679
You know, I explain it to clients.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:50.000
They're missing, if it was a computer, they're missing a big chip.
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They're missing the chip, they can't get it back.
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They're doing the best that they can.
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Look, try to look at if you can tolerate how what they are doing well.
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:05.360
But if they're not and they're too toxic, you can make the the decision that you you need to make.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:17.440
And if we really are going to ascend in consciousness, really as a humanity, all of us need to become forgiving and more loving and more compassionate, more tolerant of others.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:29.199
And it is hard, but they definitely are your teachers in this, I'll just say, spiritual assignment that, you know, is yours and only yours.
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:35.360
So we each have our own little agenda that we're going through of the things that we need to learn.
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:37.840
People are teaching that to us.
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:41.679
The world that we are living in is teaching that to us.
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:49.920
And so that is like your unique little um uh agenda, curriculum.
00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.400
And we're all on our own little curriculum.
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.280
And another important piece, like with social media, with everything, is oh, but their life is so great.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.559
And but no, but they don't have that, every single person has a cross to bear.
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:01.599
Every single one.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:05.679
And you might not see that cross to bear because they're really good at thinking it.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:12.079
They're really good at making really cute, nice family photos or pictures and everything's as therapists.
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:13.760
We know it's not like that.
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:15.280
Everyone has their cross to bear.
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:21.199
That can even make life more bearable, knowing that everyone has their own cross to bear and everyone suffers.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:28.079
But if you can make your suffering into something that makes you more advanced, you know, that's key.
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:29.679
And then you can help others with it.
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:32.320
And you don't have to start a podcast or be a therapist.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:39.679
You can just be more compassionate and more light and vibrant in your daily interactions with people.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:50.400
And every single person that you connect with, whether that's at Starbucks, yoga studio, um, the person taking out your garbage, you're affecting them vibrationally and energetically.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:51.679
I mean, you just you are.
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:52.559
That's how we work.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:54.159
We're all interconnected.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:01.840
Taking care of yourself, filling your own cup, it will ripple outward and vibrate around the whole world.
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:04.639
Wow, I sound so cheesy right now, but it's true.
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:05.920
It's true.
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:07.760
It is.
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:10.719
Well, this has been amazing.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:14.480
Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap up?
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:22.239
You know, I just know that if you are listening to this podcast, you are already on your healing journey.
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:42.320
And it is important if you are chronically being ghosted or tolerating any kind of um dysfunctional dynamic that you do kind of look at why and your your behaviors, but also your patterns and your past.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:47.039
It's they're the keys to unlock healthy relationships in the future.
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:48.800
Beautifully said.
00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:52.239
And thank you so much for being here and joining me today, Dr.
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:53.039
Hutchinson.
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.119
Thank you so much for having me.
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:56.320
I appreciate it.
00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:58.079
Everybody get the book.
00:43:58.079 --> 00:43:59.519
I promise it is worth.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:02.559
The read, even though uh, like Dr.
00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:10.639
Hutchinson said, it can be a little bit challenging to get through, but it it took me about two weeks and I'm really glad I did it overall.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:13.519
I feel lifted up, joyful, lighter.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:15.199
I definitely learned a lot from it.
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:16.719
So highly recommend it.
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:18.159
Thank you.
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:18.639
Yeah.
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:19.360
Yeah.
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.280
And friends, please follow me.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.199
I'm at coping with ghosting.
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:28.159
It's on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, even TikTok now.
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:29.679
And leave a comment.
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:35.039
I'd love to hear what you're thinking, how this has helped you, anything like that.
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.880
And please join me at Coping with Ghosting.
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:43.840
There's a free Facebook group, and we can really help to support you there.
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:48.239
Finally, remember you're not alone in anything that you're facing.
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:54.400
You're worthy of care and connection, and you deserve the best.