Doodlebug on What Originality Really Meant in Hip-Hop's Golden Era

Podcast Mechanic: even know who's listening to the music but anybody that is and it and it does anything for them I'm I'm very, very happy about that. You know what I'm saying? That's what you do the music for in the first place. Jack and I'm Shah Cor. And this week, we're honored to welcome another renowned creator, a Grammy winning MC, solo artist who has never stopped building one third of the legendary diggable planets. Someone who really needs no introduction. Doodle bug, aka C knowledge. I appreciate you you know I'm saying helping me to make this a little bit more accessible for myself, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no pr no problem, man. No problem. For sure. No problem. Like we was just building on a few seconds ago, like when you guys made Reaching, did you did you guys know that y'all were doing something different? Did you were you like tapped into what was going on in hip hop and you was like, yo, we just gonna go in this direction with it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a prerequisite in that era. You know what I'm saying? You had to be original. I mean I those are the that's the era of people running up on stage and yanking you off stage if you KRS wanted to be a bad, right? Exactly, exactly. So that that was it was real. It was to the to this generation, it's a myth, you know what I'm saying? You don't see that too much nowadays. But back in the day, I mean, it was your whole reputation was built on your originality, your style, your you know what I'm saying, your stage presence, your show. Because The industry wasn't a major part of the hip hop culture back in those early days, you know what I'm saying? In the early days, it was more about the live show and you know what I'm saying, and then establishing your sting. You know what I'm saying? Some people like to sing rap, some people had ill dance steps, some people had you know I'm saying different different elements they added to it. Some people used an instrument, some people had a DJ that was just really ill and they highlighted the DJ in the MC situation. You know what I'm saying? But you are but you had to have your own thing. When people made routines and stuff like that It was serious. You know what I'm And if they heard you saying their routine, yo, your cat would travel across town to get you. You know what I mean? Yeah. So yeah, it was a it was a conscious effort to be original and find our own lane in hip hop. You know what I mean? And you guys definitely did that. Me and Jay was talking before we hopped on the on the chat here. And I was saying to my to my knowledge, we hadn't really seen a model where it was two male MCs and a female MC. You know, we seen models where a female may have been in the crew, like a Roxanne Shantae or something like that. Yeah. So we hadn't really seen that. So I thought that was dope in itself that that set y'all apart alone. You know, not to mention the sound set you apart. so were you guys really cognizant of that? Like You know, like we finna we finna kill it. They ain't never seen this before. nah, not really. I mean, it was just it was just a natural evolution natural evolution, you know what I'm saying? How it happened, you know what I'm saying? I was I met I was already friends with Ladybug when I was living in DC. I met her just on the scene, you know what I'm saying? Okay when she was in a dance crew back in the day in D C on the hip hop scene, I would see her at different parties and we connected, got cool. And then I'm I met Ishmael, you know, we were in college just college days. So I met Ishmael. We partied a lot. We would travel from DC to New York, even sometimes even Boston. You know what I'm saying? To get to find a party. The party was live enough. We would travel, you know what I'm saying? Nice. So I would see him at a lot of these parties. And eventually we started, a friend of our, a mutual friend, got us in the same circle and we was we built was talking and I found out we had so many things in common. He was talking about this group he was working on called Diggable Planets that he developed. And he broke down the whole insect theory and it intrigued it intrigued me a lot. You know what I'm saying? Piqued my interest a lot. I didn't I wouldn't have approached hip hop like that, but I understood the You know what it was what it was based on, you know what I'm saying? What was you know I'm saying? Commun com community. You know what I'm saying? Right. All for one, one for all, put aside your ego like like insects do. It's not about ego in the insect world. It's all about, you know what I'm saying, efficiency and getting things done and doing it th for the hive, you know what I'm saying? So that hive mistake was was was very high on my list of priorities and and when he started talking about what the group was about, I was like, I'm with that. That's so interesting that you said that, about like community because I was trying to put my finger on it, what what really sets you guys apart when I was thinking about this interview, and it almost came like a like a light bulb when I've what you guys, you guys, it feels like genuine family. And not just loosely, not the loose term family, but like It it feels like you guys are blood related. And I know you're not, but it feels like that when you hit the chemistry is so undeniable that I think that's one of the things that set you apart. Y'all don't seem like just some people who are happen be talented and let's just come together to do something cool. It's like you feel the brotherhood slash sisterhood between you guys and I think that's amazing. And you still feel it today. Like like I felt that. When I first heard y'all and and I still feel that today. So that's kudos to y'all for being able to because like you know, it's a lot of groups that came out around that time that aren't active or aren't together, and you guys are still doing it as a family. We're striving to keep this thing alive and the chemistry, I mean, we all When we met each other in different ways, you what I'm saying? I met Ladybug first and then I met Ishmael later. And then when he told me about the group thing, Ladybug and I was always hanging out, stuff like that. he ca he comes to find out that his grandmother lived around the corner from my grandmother in Philadelphia. Yeah. And Wow. We started thinking now. He came over one day to my grandmother's house and Ladybug was over there, Mary Ann was over there w with us with me and We just started talking and building about music and stuff and then that's how we recognized Ladybug's musical talent. 'Cause we were sitting around talking about ideas about the group and blah, blah, blah, blah. She wasn't really involved at the 'cause of at the in the beginning because wasn't the plan. But then eventually Ishmael saw the vision and realized that her talent, you know what I'm saying, as well as the fact that we all were so we were cool and we and and and we we hung together, it was just natural. We just had fun together, you know what I'm saying? And we like the same kinds of music and stuff like that. So he thought it would be a good idea to have her be a part of the situation too. And then he, at the time he was intern at this record label in New York called Sleepin' Back Records. And while he was there, he utilized that job to finagle his way to different A and R's and get the demo tape to him, you know what I'm saying? Because to deliver certain things to different record labels, you know what I'm saying? From that from Sleeping Bag Records, he could send over packages and he would dip off the demo. And one of the places he stopped at was new label called Pendulum Records. Ruben Rodriguez started it, May He Rest in Peace. And one of the ARs there heard our heard our music and his name was Dennis Wheeler. May He Rest in Peace too. He's not with us anymore, but he heard it and heard something and liked it a lot. And he fought for us. And convinced the rest of the label to to mess with us. And they invited us up to New York. Ladybug and I had to jump on the New Jersey transit and travel up to New York and we met Ishmael up there and we went to this meeting and I was so nervous, man. It was crazy. No, they asked us to perform right there in the office and we rocked it and they liked what they and then not too long after that they wanted to sign us. Nice. So you and Ladybug already had a chemistry prior to y'all hooking up with Ishmael or you like running around town with Ishmael and stuff like that. like how did that work into your chemistry when it came to like writing music? Like you know, like e everybody like pushing each other, and what was it like to kind of like step back when you had to step back? Because you know, you guys got a lot of joints where y'all going off and on. You know what I'm saying? Like verse for verse and stuff like that. And and like how did that kind of like work out? Well, Ishmael is the brainchild to this whole to that whole insect theory, the diggable planets, you know what I'm saying? He came to me with the idea. I love I was at the time I was in a group in Philadelphia called the Dread Poet Society. And we had a song called Skin Treatment. And the song that we we produ we used and we we used the sample Art Blakey and the Jazz Messages Stretching, which turns out to be the cool like that. Ishmael heard the demo when he and I connected. He heard the demo. No, he let me hear some of his music. I let me he let him hear some of mine. And he heard the demo was like, yo, that's dope. And then as we got cool, he starts saying and I he started and he re and I guess he realized that I was gonna be down with him what he was doing. He trusted me enough. He was like, yo, that song y'all had, I don't know what y'all gonna do, but if you're if you're cool, if your crew is cool with it, can we use that sample? And I was like, yeah, I talked to him and I talked to them, you know what I'm saying, and they w they approved it. And so Ishmael grabbed the sample and and flipped it and turned it into what the song that you hear today. And he basically had a lot of the concept of that whole first album done. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. He asked Mecca and I to add our flavor to it. You know what I'm saying? There were certain songs where we would jump on, he'd be Yo, this is the idea, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we write our verse to it, you know what I'm saying, and come back. He put and he put it all together and made it what it what you heard on on Wax. Nice, nice. So me and Jay, our connection is we formed a band when we were in a music program at at in college. And when I say a band, it was a a live band. We were just trying to show different facets of hip hop and stuff like that. When I saw you guys earlier this year at Janice. I immediately went on Facebook after the show and was like, Man, seeing Diggable Planets made me miss performing with my band. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause it's it's it's nothing like playing with a band. A DJ is dope, you know what I'm saying? And it's dope if you can put both together. Nah, that's even doper. That's even doper, right? But it's something about that live instrumentation, bro. And so your band that's called what, the the culprits? Yeah, the we call the culprits. Yeah. Exactly. We got Ace Karini on drums, Thaddeus Turner, the Thadillac on guitars and bass line I mean on keyboards. Got his brother Tugbo Turner on bass. my main man Carlos Overall on the saxophone and percussions. Yeah. And we got Darius Wilrich on the keys. I love it, bro. Those are all cool jazz names too. Right. Every last one you could like if you go all the way back to like you know, the sixties and seventies and just like Yo, what's up, Daddy? Right, right. And and and and I saw similarities to us in the sense that you guys give the band space to get down. You know what I'm saying? You know, so the MCs can fall back, catch their breath, whatever they gotta do, take take a sip of water and let the bear just jam out. So I I I man, you guys it's an experience to see you guys, man. And again, kudos to you because when I saw you guys, I saw so many of my friends that I saw that I saw that Facebook post you posted. You saw that? Yeah, I saw the the video you were showing us performing and Yes. Yes, bro. You go back you saw mad people you haven't seen in a long time. In long time, bro. And I knees held up, bro. That's what I was impressed with. Cause we had to stand up for like an hour and a half, bro, but our knees held up, bro. Nowadays I have to I have to like measure that when I go to a show, I had to like look is it general mission or is this seat? 'Cause you know what I'm Yeah. Is this show worth me standing up for show? And you did several crowd checks, like, yo, y'all with us? Y'all with us? So I was like, I think he's seeing all the gray hairs out there. Grave diamond baby. Yeah, man. You know what I'm saying? But Yeah, man, you guys killed that show, man. Let's talk about blowout comb, because you guys are right now on the on a tour, thirty year anniversary of that incredible album, right? Y'all sophomore album. So a couple of things. So the first thing I wanna ask about that specific album is we've all heard of the sophomore jinx, right? You guys put out a classic before that. The you know, the reaching refutation re let me get it right. A new reputation of time and space. Time and space, yes. So you guys kill it with that. Going into the blowout comb, are you guys thinking, man? We don't wanna have a sophomore jinx. Is that even on your mind? Because I know that was a thing. Nah, it really wasn't on our it wasn't prevalent on our mind. I mean, when you have meetings with the record label, it kinda you know what I'm saying, you start you think about it in those terms because in those meetings the the b they're thinking in terms of business. We think in terms of creativity, being an artist, living free, being a free and independent thinker. You know what I'm saying? That's the that's what that was our whole vibe. Yeah. Record sales and all that wasn't really a thing to us. You know what I'm saying? We just wanted to make good music and wanted to to like it. We want to see our video on Rap City. You know, right. That was that was our long stage in our life. Yeah. Once we became in a more engrossed into the record label, major record label business side of it, is when we start becoming more aware and conscious of that side and becoming, you know what I'm saying? But when we were doing blowout comb. That wasn't in our thought pattern. Our thought pattern was now, from the experience of doing all those tours, because that first time was so successful. We toured around the world multiple times, did so many shows, saw so many things, and it all came back to just dang it's a lot of different places, a lot of different faces, but it's it's kinda still the same, man. You know what I'm saying? Racism is everywhere. You know what I'm saying? All that sexism, fan it's all it's everywhere. And I realized that 'cause that was a was one of the first times I ever traveled around the world. You know what I'm saying? Music gave me the ability to do that. You know what I'm saying? And I saw it. So you got to see the good, bad, and the ugly. Yeah, and that and it kind of and it kind of we also saw it on a from a POV of an industry insider, you know what I'm saying? Right, right. As well as just being a a a black person in Europe. Walking around doing you know what I'm saying and getting punched ducks and you know what I'm saying? Right. And at the shows you get in love, treated like you like a superstar. Then when you hit the sh then when it's no show, you just walking around just a regular person, people looking at you all crazy and you know what I'm saying, different kind of interact. Not not everybody, you know what I'm saying? Not everybody. But but you but you but you feel it though. You feel it, you know what I'm saying? And it's like I realize that it's everywhere. Things like that is what shaped our minds at the time to develop blowout comb. You know what I'm saying? We wanted to come and speak on things that affected us and people that look like us, you know what I'm saying? Right, yeah. I was gonna say that, like I feel like even from the title, it was so unapologetically black. And I love that about that that alb even the the album cover with the with the pick, you know what I mean? When you guys were touring, like how well received was the group when you were going to all of those different places that you experienced? man, when we was in the show we was in when we were the show, I mean everybody was there to hear the music and they they knew who we were cause, you know, whatever, you know, the the major record label machine, you what I'm saying, pushed it mm very well, that first album. It caught some kind of fire. And all the shows were well received. I mean, the only show I can think of in our whole tenure that we even had any disputes was in Buffalo. one of the tours we did in Buffalo in the in the mid nineties, we would Jazzy Joyce was touring with us as our DJ and we were touring and we did some show and it was some j it was some jealous cats or something. I don't know what the I don't know what they was in, but they just kept the crowd was just all out. It was packed up. I mean it was thick packed. Yeah. And these cat some cats just started throwing sh at the stage. And I was like, yo, what? I looked at the stage. He was like, yo, what the what's going on? We got off after we just continued the show. And after the show, we came out in the crowd and they and then they came up on us and then then just a big and then then we just started brawling. my gosh. And then the crowd, the whole club started fighting. Right. it was a crazy situation. my goodness. It was a crazy situation. Jadie Joyce was upset like a mug, man. And I zipped off. I had to run off to the bat. I like a ounce or I was not trying to get arrested that night. I'll recog yeah, I dipped in the bathroom. A couple of people in our band got arrested. I think Ladybug and a couple of other bim band members got arrested that night and we had to go get them. I think Jazzy Joyce got arrested that night too, to be honest with you. And I think and we had to go the next day and get them bailed out and then continue the tour. But yeah, it was crazy. But that was really the only time That I can think of that we really had any real beef at a at any of our shows, you know what I'm saying? So what's it like to perform that music now, like thirty something years later? You're obviously at a different point, but these these songs are like like so just part of us. Like these are household songs. So do you still get excited? Is it just like, man, I gotta do cool like that again, or do you still get excited? Do you still get that? Very excited. Still very excited. Like, and then there was a groups that came out after that. Camp Lowe, Slum Village, you know what I mean? Like, do you think that the way Diggable Planets was rocking was inspiration for groups like them? 'Cause I could get 'cause when I hear Camp Low, I can hear You can see the tree. Yeah. You can definitely see the tree, the branches. You know, we all I think we all inspired each other. You know what I think we kinda all came up in the same era, you know what I'm saying? And all I I knew of all of them, you know what I'm saying? They knew of us, we knew of them. We was mad cool with Campbell. We still cool with Campbell, Cheap and and you know what I'm saying, Suede. We cool with them to this day, you know what I'm saying? We we toured with them a few years ago. I've been trying to I've been talking to to the the group trying to see if we can make it happen again, you know I'm saying? Nice. Some point that'll be dope. But I don't know if They got their own style. I mean, they got their own style. I mean, I'm sure we all inspired each other in some kind of way, but I can't really take that credit, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, 'cause when you when when you go you know, a lot a lot of people that are going back and like listening to music and looking at the dates of like when things came out and stuff like that, and then going and kinda like reading the you know, when groups dropped and when groups formed and stuff like that. And some of those dates can be like you know, misconceiving because, you know, a lot of groups have been together longer than that. So when you bring when you bring up that you all knew each other, it you know, it it sent off something in my head like, okay, yeah, that that makes sense because if all you guys were like out at that time and like interacting with each other and stuff like that, that you know, that makes that makes a lot more sense of how relevant, you know, all of the sound put together would be. Yeah. I definitely think you guys opened doors to just you know, you and the Daylas and the Tribe Call Quest to have that that, you know, that abstract type of hip hop that was the alternative to quote unquote gangster rap or quote unquote hardcore rap. And that's what, you know, I was thinking about we know famous song by Common, I Used to Lover. The line where he says I used to just cool out, cool out and listen to her. Yeah. It always makes me think of you guys. Specifically Jimmy digging cats. Wow. When I think of that line, it's weird how I you know what I'm saying, 'cause it's a common song, but when he says that, that's where my mind goes to cause I can remember just putting on them headphones and waiting to hear that thing thing thing. my god. This is another classic sample of the country. my god. Yes, yes. That's that's cool in the gate, right? right? I think so, yes. Yeah, I think that's coolin' the gay, yeah. but yeah, bro. So quick question, man. So we just mentioned how the last album was Blowout Comb. Now, you guys obviously still touring. you know, we gotta ask, any new music? As the group? I don't I can't I don't know. I don't know. We we've talked about it. We've definitely talked about it. And I'm definitely that is I'm with it. Because I mean now is the perfect time. see? You never know. We never know. Because we seeing this we seeing all the OGs killing it right now. So I think y'all can slide right up in there. We see the We see the Smith and Westons coming back. We see L L coming back. We see the Yeah, yeah, I feel you, man. I'm with it. It's three of us. We all got different schedules. We got schedules priorities, things like that. You know what I'm saying? We'll see. We'll see. But I remember we've been talking about it and everybody sounds like and they've been saying the right things, but we just haven't actually gotten it done yet. Yeah, no doubt. So talk about your like identity outside of the planets, you know, with the cosmic funk orchestra and how you're building as C knowledge. and that's different in terms of like freedom and what direction you can open up when you create in that sense. You know, it's like I said, I'm gonna keep doing this forever. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes the group is not doing nothing. So I still wanna make music. Yeah. I mean, you know, we're we're touring and stuff like that, but as we're not making creating music, so I gotta vent that energy somewhere. You know what I'm saying? So I just Make music. I don't even sometimes I don't even be thinking about releasing it. I just do it just as a it's almost like therapy, you know what I'm saying? I feel Sometimes you just gotta get these words off on onto a piece of paper. Yeah. Onto your a tablet or your phone or whatever. I I I used to I used to hate writing rhymes on a phone. Back in the day my friends would be like writing on it. Like, yo, man, why are you even writing the phone? I was always writing in my past. Exclusive. I just th I literally just recently got more into writing it on my phone now. You know what I'm saying? I am right there with you, bro. Like I used to watch this guy put his stuff on his phone and I'm like, it just didn't feel natural. Like I'm 'cause I wanted to write. I like I love seeing like the word scratched out. Yeah. And then the new word put there. And I'm like, I can't do that with the but now I will say it's I've caught up to where I do more on the phone. Me too, I do in the paper. But I feel you, bro. I was I was kicking his scream and I was like, no, no, I'm gonna write these bars now, man. Yeah, for real. So yeah, I'm well in that sense, I just like to create the music and some you know, and it turns into the cosmophone orchestra music or sometimes I do the it turns into doodle bug eighty empire music. like we're working on the new doodle bug eighty empire project right now. Okay. We're like seven songs deep into it right now. And hopefully we release it maybe top of next year or end of this year. It depends on how when we finish it and how we want to do it. and I'm also working on another solo project with a producer named Jimmy Whispers out of the DMV. And it's coming out really dope. About four songs into that one. Nice. And I'm also writing co writing a graphic novel series with my business partner Thomas View Esquire. You know what I'm saying? We're writing this book called the epic of the Heaven and Earth Association. And we already put one book out about two years ago. And we're right now we're in a process of getting an illustrator to put the to visualize the the story. And once we get all that done, we're gonna put that out hopefully maybe end of this year, top of next year. Before we get into this next question Jay about to ask, I wanna ask real quick while we here, so what's your process? Like like how do you like to to to put your stuff together. Do you like to get the beat first or do you write and then try to pick a beat later to be like, I think this beat'll work with this rhyme. How you like to do it? I prefer the beat and write, but I also but being on the road and being on the car, ideas pop in your head. You'll see something, you'll hear something on the radio or you'll s you know what I'm saying? Or you're talking to somebody and something spark a an idea. Yeah. And I pull over or when I get to the red light, I get on my phone and start and write the idea down. I like that. I do that sometimes, you know what I'm saying? But I like to I like to hear a groove. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But I have written songs to be a Yeah, and match and found beats like, that might go with that. Right. And it's like, shit that does go with that. Right. Sometimes I do do that. And sometimes if I'm lucky enough, some of my musician friends and I will get together and craft a beat. You know what I'm saying? Custom to the to the flow and to the rhyme that I'm doing, which is actually real dope. You know what I'm saying? It's fun. It's fun to do That's fun. That's a fun way to do 'Cause I think a fun way to do it. I think the default for us MCs is to write to the beat. But like you say, when when that creative juice is in you, sometimes you can't wait till beat comes. You gotta write down the thoughts. And then that becomes a fun process to try to listen to different beats. Yeah. And try your flows out on, you know, almost like a test draft. I got songs that never that never found a beat. Right. Now, is there is there a particular like part of the beat that you like to kind of like focus in on? Like when you're writing to like is has there been like several beats where you're like Okay, I'm I'm focusing on the drums. I like to write to this, or I'm focusing on the bass or, you know, like whatever s other instrumentation is going on there, or it's just like the whole beat in general. Each beat is ha each beat is his own story within itself. Say I don't know, I just when I hear the beat, I I vibe to it. If it's a I've heard millions of beats and sometimes, you know, I hear a beat and I'd be like, Yeah, I like that beat, but I don't like it for me. Yeah. Yeah. But I like that and that beat is dope, but I don't I I just can't See me rhyming to it. I can see somebody else rhyming to it, but I still like the beat. Yeah. Sometimes I hear a beat and I'm like, it catch like, okay. I like this. Then I put it aside and I listen to it again the next day to make sure that I wasn't just really hot. Right. You know what I'm saying? Then if I and then if I confirm that I did really like that beat, then I'll start writing something to it. You know what I mean? So when you're putting a a project together, how much is it You're you you made all these songs and now it's time to dwindle it down or are you so locked in that pretty much whatever you're working on is gonna make the project? I just make songs and then after I make them, I listen to the whole body of them and I figure out, okay, yeah, these this these fit. These fit fit. I I I I try sometimes I it ain't perfect it ain't a perfect process. You know what I'm saying? There's no perfect process, I don't think. But I sometimes I try to come up with a title, a concept. And then I try to build songs around that. Yeah. Sometimes I just make songs. And then as I after I make the songs, I listen to I like, okay. Then I make a title based on what the vibe or what I'm feeling off of that body of work right there. You know what I'm saying? It's different ways I do it. You know what I'm saying? I there's no one way I really do it. You know what I'm saying? Right. So a Galactic Love Supreme. 15 years in the making, right? man. It took us a while. But it was worth It was worth it. you met with AD Empire in Little Italy. and then you guys actually worked on a track and then that track never came out. Yeah, yeah. Talk about Well it came out. It came out on the it's on the Galactic Left Supreme. I miss a song called Amore. Right. Okay, okay, that's the one. That's the first song. We did it we did it. That was the first song we ever did together. They came to me. I was on tour in Canada and They came to the show and they were like, Yo, blah, blah, blah, blah. We would love to do some some music with you, da da da da da and so the next day I had a day or two off in c in Toronto. So we met up in Little Italy section of Toronto and we sat and had some, you know, tea and just and sh you know, and they I they mad cool. I mean as we as we started talking, we built such a rapport, know what I'm saying? They they became like my broth my de facto brothers, you know, you know what I'm saying? And Got mad cool and then when I left they were like they s they called me up after I got home and I was like, Yo, we got a song, we gotta do the song They sent me the track, I wrote my verse, recorded it, sent it back to and it became that song and then we sat on it for a minute. COVID hit. And we sit around bored and they just have like, yo, remember that joint we did a long time ago? And I was like, What? I said, Yo, send me that joint. I can't remember it. And they sent it to me and I was like, okay, yeah, this joint is still banging. Yeah. And they Yeah, yeah. And they was like, we could do some more, man. Ain't nothing else to do. I said, Yeah. So we just started sending ideas back and forth and then it just turned into a Galactic Love Supreme. I love it, man. That's such a fire album, bro. And it's like I can hear I can hear that I can hear it in your rhymes that you still enjoy it. You know what I'm saying? I could tell when the MC still just loves it. If i if the if you don't make another dime, you go still rhyme. I could I I that's that's what I got from that album. I started off making no money doing this shit. Right. Right. The pa and the passion and love for it is very where I could actually monetize it, you what I'm saying? Because it was long time it wasn't being monetized. You know what I'm saying? Right. When it finally got monetized, it was like, I'm so glad I didn't give up. You know what I'm saying? Right. You know what I'm saying? But everybody's everybody's journey is different. You know what I'm saying? Everybody's journeying. So how many songs did y'all actually put together before you decided on like what tracks was going to go in the album? Like calling back to what he was saying earlier about like putting a track list together and stuff like that. And kind of Because I mentioned to him earlier when he walked in. That album spans almost like so many different styles of music. Yeah. You got like you got like a island couple island like feeling like joints on there. You know what I'm saying? You got some boom bad joints on there. Of course you got the classic foundation, jazzy joints on there and stuff like that, and like some really R and B feeling melodic joints on there. So like that that You cover a lot of ground on that album. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's indicative of who I am as a person. I mean, I listen to all types of music, you know what I'm saying? I look so it so many different things inspire me, you know what I'm saying, to do music. So I don't want it to sound all the same, you know what I'm saying? I want it to reflect who I am, you know what I mean? And and another thing that I think that's dope about the music that you do, whether it's you with the the the solo stuff or with the group, you guys, y'all music is timeless, bro. So like I could put that first album on and it it it ages it aged very well. It doesn't feel like this was only meant for this era, bro. Like it's still a vibe to to this day, bro. So that's not easy to do. You know it's not. That's not easy to do. one of the best when it comes to that to me is Stevie Wonder. Michael Jackson, you know, though they their music will always be timeless. Timeless and relevant for the My kid. Matthew Jackson all the time, the Jackson Pop all the time. Like like it just came out. You know what I'm saying? Right. I was just literally having that conversation yesterday about at church with with some people about how Mike music Touches the kids in a way that I've never seen another artist that what like like cause Mike has been gone 16, 17 years. So these kids now didn't grow up listening to him, but you would think they did. You know what I'm saying? I I I don't I I like I don't I don't know if if it's a cause after like dissecting Michael, you know, after watching it and then going back like through the catalog and stuff like that, like I don't know if it was like his youthfulness. That energy and never really kinda like growing up. Yeah. That that ha or having the opportunity to grow up and stuff like that. Because it was it a lot of those parts were really sad how how, you know, he really didn't have any like friends and stuff like that. But but just being like youthful and the great that's a great point actually, yeah. It was that like illuminating. Beautiful energy is captured in the music. That's a great point. Yeah, and they and they and they feel it. They feel it. They feel it. Yeah, they feel it, man. So what does it mean for you, Doodle Bug, to still be creating music that makes people feel good and more importantly, to think critically. Man, I I I'm I don't even know who's listening to the music, but anybody that is and then and that does anything for them, I'm I'm very Very happy about that. You know what I'm saying? That's what you do the music for in the first place. Well, first of all, first and foremost, you do the music for yourself. Right. Right. Absolutely. Do the music yourself and you invite the rest of the world to come into your world. And if they like it, yo, say, come on, you know what I'm saying? Let's do this. Yeah. So we all got different stories to tell. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I mean it feels really it feels good, man. 'Cause I've had Fans come up to me at different shows, they go planet shows and they come up to me and bring some of my solo vinyl. I'm saying like, yo, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they tell me stories about it. I'm like, yo, it touches my it t it touches my heart strings. I ain't gonna find it's dope, bro. That's gotta be gratifying, man. So it is, man. You don't know you don't you don't know who's listening. I mean, I don't I'm not like a a big rap star or nothing like that. You know, I'm just me, you know what I'm saying? So when people listen to it, it's a that's a big thing to me, you what I'm saying? And that's why, you know, that's why doing this podcast together is important to us because we wanna be able to give people like you your flowers, bro, and let you know that your music did and still does touch us, bro. And like, you know, you know, never take that for granted, bro. That's that's that's you d you're doing God's work, bro. You know what I'm saying? You you you you motivating and you inspiring through your gift, bro. So never t never ever take that lightly, bro. That's that's a It's a huge responsibility, but it's it's also one that's very gratifying, bro. No doubt. 'Cause you get to put your thoughts on paper and that affects somebody all these miles away. Like I told you, I'm grew up in Saint Pete, Florida, bro. You know what I mean? Way far away from New York. But I was connected. You know what I'm saying? You you you were affecting me through that music, bro. Yeah, I mean I know, 'cause I mean similar Artists did the same thing for me. For you. So what's next for Doodle Bug and slash C knowledge? Same person. And what are you what are you building towards? right now, you know, I'm finishing up this music for the next Galactic Love Supreme project. Working on my solo project, title to be determined. And continuing working with my family, Ladybug and Butter. You what I'm saying? With the diggable planet stuff. We got a lot of stuff planned for the future. Lot shows and stuff and some projects that we're gonna put out. so hopefully, you know what I'm saying, we'll keep that moving and keep that going and I wanna branch out with my graphic novel series and do more things like that, you know what I'm saying? And so yeah, I'm working on stuff like that and trying to stay grounded with my family, you know what I mean? before we let you go and ask and and let the people know where they they can connect with you, do you have a couple of minutes to kind of like talk about? The graphic novel a little bit more. Yeah, it's a it's an afro futuristic. It's an allegorical tale of like the protagonist is the Afronauts. The antagonist is a group of people called the Retchen. The Afronauts live in a place called the Seventh Dimension. the Wretchen are a greedy, corrupt, bunch of people who All they wanna do is just exploit every creature in the universe, you know what I'm saying? They hear about this thing called the twelve jewels that the astronauts lay claim to, and in their greedy minds, they think the twelve jewels is like diamonds and things like that, resources that they exploit. But it's actually the twelve jewels is a mind state, you know what I'm saying? Code of life that people live by, you know what I'm saying? And so they go on this mission to kidnap astronauts from across the universe and they bring to this prison planet which is planet supermarket where everything is for sale. You know what I'm saying? They f the astronauts forget who they are. And there's a group called the Heaven and Earth Association, which are commissioned by the Council of Monks in the seventh dimension to come back to Planet Supermarket and try to save the astronauts and bring back home. And all but while they're there, teach them o wake wake them up to who they really are. They're the they're the afronauts. You what I'm saying? Afronauts are not just blacks. They're all types. You know what I'm saying? Because from the from from Africa and from the from black comes everything. You know what I'm saying? Right. Seed of all it's a seed of civilization. You know what I'm saying? So Afronauts represent all righteous people around around the the universe. And the wretching in the book are represented their their When you you know who wretched is by their face. Their their bodies are all blue because they're cold blooded cold blooded individuals, you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? They don't go they don't care. All they care about is getting loot. You know what I'm saying? Right. They'll do whatever it takes, you know what I'm saying, to exploit people around the universe. So that's basically what the comic book is about. So that's that's the gist of it. And you can go to our website, epic dash heaven earth. dot com and you can see excerpts from the book and you could order the book from there and you can see trailers for our little podcast series that we started about it. You know what I'm saying? So if interest then you can go there and check it out. And you can also come up to me at any show. I usually have a copy or two in my book bag, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So where where else can everybody else connect with you and get your music and and check out whatever other stuff that's You can hit me up. Of course, my main pl platform is C knowledgepresents.bandcamp dot com. You know what I'm saying? That's where you can purchase my vinyl, my C Ds, my Mer my merchandise. and you know, to those who like to stream, my music is on all those streaming services. But I prefer you go by the physical, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause that's the artist lives off the physical. The stream is just kind Like the it's like a calling card really, 'cause we ain't make money off of it. Right, yeah. Well, do the bug, it has been an honor, my brother. Thank you so much for taking our time. Your busy busy day. You know, I know you be doing the fatherly duties and picking the babies up from from school and stuff, so man, we really appreciate you. I appreciate y'all having me on your platform, man. Nough respects. I'm Jack and I'm Shaw Corps and this has been another dope conversation.