WEBVTT
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Straw media, a Jay women to
get if it's ten years. Yeah,
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welcome to conversations with friends and strangers. I'm Maggie, I'm the Lam in
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the show we take a closer look
at the complicated relationships in the Hulu series
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conversations with friends. Will meet some
of the cast and crew, chat with
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experts and share our own kind of
sexy, kind of uncomfortable, but relatable
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stories about the messy relationships we find
ourselves in. Episode Ten is our character's
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first attempt at truly consensual nonmonogamy,
because everything's out in the open and that
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got us thinking. What does consensual
nonmonogamy look like in the real world?
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Wait, conversations with friends isn't a
DOCU series. We'll hear about how a
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young marriage left behind a big what
if. Then we'll get an inside look
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at an open marriage with pro skate
border and podcast host Jason Ellis. And
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of course we're all hands on deck
with experts. Justin Leigh Miller, Ian
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Kerner and Martha Cowpy to talk about
what a relationship needs in order for no
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monogamy to work. It needs pet
chickens that lay fresh eggs every morning.
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Not exactly, but that would be
nice. For now, let's recap.
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So this episode, episode ten,
big episode, big episode. Melissa wants
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to talk to Francis. Yeah,
the dread in her face when she sees
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that email. It's oof. They
externalized this conversation in the series, so
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Frances actually go is over to their
house. Just terrifying. I could never
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do that. No Way. In
some ways it feels like the affair is
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a sign of life for Nick and
Melissa sees that Francis is having a positive
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effect on him. He's happier,
and so she's willing to try and make
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it work. They all have dinner
together with Bobby. It's awkward, but
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there's a little humor. Their selfaware, and Melissa shares with Francis that she
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also has an alcoholic father, which
kind of signals to Francis that their relationship
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is no longer just their's. Yeah, no longer, here's a nick.
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That's a good point. Speaking of
Frances is alcoholic father, he's still not
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answering her calls and she still has
no money. Nick and Francis Start having
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conversations about children. They're saying I
love us, doing sex. They go
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out on a fancy dinner and Valerie
wants to publish Francis's short story in a
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literary magazine, but she gets a
weird voicemail from her dad. It's kind
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of scary. It turns out he's
okay, kind of, but he's also
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not really okay. And meanwhile bobby
is dealing with her own family drama.
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Yeah, they have, both both
of them have. Both Bobby and Frances
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have family drama going on at the
same time. They go out with some
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friends and they have a great conversation
about monogamy, spontaneous consent, and then
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Bobby and Francis Kiss sweetly. This
episode has their first attempt at truly consensual
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nonmonogamy, because everyone is finally on
the same page, Adam the open,
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and so that got us thinking.
What does consensual nomonogamy look like in the
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real world? Consensual nominogamy and polyamory, interest in them is on the rise.
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We see this in Google searches popular
media depictions. People are increasingly interested
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in understanding what it might be like
to be able to be in a sexual
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and romantic relationship with more than one
person at a time. If we're going
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to talk about consensual nomenogamy, we
have to bring back Doctor Justin Leah Miller.
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Now, despite the fact that interest
is growing, not that many people
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have actually tried consensual nominogamy in real
life. The best available data we have
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suggested about one in five North Americans
have ever been in some type of sexually
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open relationship and only about five percent
are currently practicing it in some form or
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another. So there's a pretty big
gap between people's fantasy about this, they're
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interest in it, and the actual
reality of it. So what is holding
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people back from exploring these alternatives to
monogamy? Well, for starters, there's
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not really a model for how to
do it. They've never seen anyone in
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their own life practicing this style of
relationship and there's so much uncertainty with just
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having one relationship as it is,
so when you start adding multiple relationships into
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the mix, the complexity of that
is something that a lot of people just
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think don't feel equipped to explore on
their own, and that's where I think
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we need more relationship education that exposes
people to different models of having relationships,
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of the people can choose the kind
of relationship that is right for them,
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and a lack of awareness about different
kinds of relationships can lead to some big
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what ifs. I was spending time
with a friend the other day while we
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were working on the show. Her
name Sarah Abramson. She's an amazing photographer
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and artist, and she was telling
me a story about when she was married.
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We got married when I was twenty, okay, out a mutual friend's
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house, and after we got married
my parents bought us our first house.
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They were married for three years,
but together for longer, and there was
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a lot of love there. And
when I was married to him I felt
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like I had found my tribe with
his family. Like his parents are like
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punk royalty, like his mom lived
with sit in Nancy in New York and
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his dad was in the screamers and
his aunt was the bass player. But
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black flag and like. These were
my people and I loved having them as
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a family. I talked to his
mom like once a month, probably.
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So what happened all those years ago
and how does it relate to our story?
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Well, back in San Pedro,
where Sarah's from, there's a big
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music scene and I started developing feelings
for this girl named Jessica who was the
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lead singer of a couple bands there, and she was like that person who's
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the center of attention every party,
super loud, Super Fun and she was
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incredibly talented. It to I thought
she was the coolest person I'd ever met.
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Like that's just how I felt about
her, and that was like the
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general consensus among all our Pedro friends, like just because really cool, like
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she's the person you go to when
you want to have fun. Yeah,
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I can see how that would be
massively alluring. And when I met Alex,
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I mean he wasn't that, but
he was like dirty and grungy and
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punk and like as we matured and
he got like a real job computer programming
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and would go to work and like
Nice clothes and, let you know,
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he changed a lot and I don't
think that we changed in the same way.
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Like when you're in a relationship,
especially a marriage, I think it's
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really hard to grow in unison with
someone like you have to make a conscious
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effort to do so and like communicate
a lot about it, which obviously we
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weren't doing. Yeah, because I
think like people are going to grow,
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but they're going to grow probably at
different paces. So like you're going to
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go through one gross spurt and then
they're going to go through another one.
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And you guys are going to be
constantly HMM. So back then, Sarah
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was having these very intense feelings not
only for someone else but for another girl,
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and it was like tearing me apart, like I felt so guilty and
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I thought that if I could have
feelings for not only another person but a
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girl, that must admit I didn't
love him as much as I thought I
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did, and I like worked up
the courage to have a talk with them
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and like okay. To this day
he is the best man I have ever
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known and probably will ever know.
He's so smart, stupid smart, but
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never makes you feel stupid, very
intuitive, like veries Zen. He's done
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a fuck kind of yoga, but
he just like knew like an he sat
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down next to me and he was
like you don't want to grow old with
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me anymore, do you? And
I just I broke down crying and we
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talked and then he moved out the
next day. Not long after she ended
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up dating Jessica, but it wasn't
really what she had imagined. My relationship
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with her was very toxic. My
relationship with Alex, my ex husband,
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was we literally never fought ever.
But it sounds like Jessica was like a
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representation of like the experimentation and exploration
you still felt like you needed to do
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because you were a really young person, like two thousand one hundred and twenty
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two at this point, right.
Yeah, that's a very good insight.
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I would have to agree to that. Yeah, she was like party animal
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crazy. We literally got each other's
names tattooed on each other after being together
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for like two weeks. SMART decisions, I mean it is like it's intense,
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it's like that feeling of him though
a high. Right, totally.
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Yeah, new, new relationship energy. It's hard to compete with. Yeah,
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as Sarah's gotten older and wiser and
see more possibilities in relationship structures,
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she reflects on that experience from a
new perspective. If I had known about
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open marriages and and things like that, I think we would probably still be
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married, because he, I'm sure
he would have agreed to anything that I
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wanted to do, because that's just
the kind of guy he is. A
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good one. Yeah, and a
loyal one. I broke this man's heart
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and he was not ever mad at
me or showed any animosity towards me a
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single time. He even told me
that I was brave for doing what I
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was doing, which like, is
almost worse. Now, more than ten
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years later, he's living in Maui
with his girlfriend, and the last time
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he was in town, Sarah saw
I'm over coffee and I basically was kind
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of asking, like why, why
we can't be friends, like it's been
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so long now, like isn't your
girlfriend over it or whatever, and he
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basically said no, and he's like
do you really think we could only be
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friends, and I was like no, yeah, and then when we hugged
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goodbye, half joking, half completely
serious, I was like call me when
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you guys were but, like I
even if they do break up every like,
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why would he ever get me a
second chance? You know? Well,
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that remains to be seen. That's
not a judgment that you can make,
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right, and I'm not like I
really try to live my life,
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not like waiting for Alex to be
single again, but there is a small
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part of me that is doing that. It's funny to have your ex husband
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as a what if? Yeah,
right. Sarah takes really beautiful photos and
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publishes a very cool art scene called
slow toast. Will Link Her instagram in
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the show notes so you can check
it out. Even though there's a big
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what if in Sarah Story. There's
no knowing whether or not an open marriage
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would have really worked for them.
Right, we can't really go back in
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time because consensual nonmonogamy just isn't the
right choice for everybody. Patriarchy aside,
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I do think that's some people just
prefer to be with one person. Great,
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so they're both legitimate. Yeah,
but monogamy has somehow become the default
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commitment. Should be based on desire
and choice and honesty. Okay, would
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if we just put pirious side for
a second. I just don't think it's
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im possible to love more than one
person. There are some who consider it
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to be a more evolved relationship style, if you will, but I don't
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think that it's the case that it's
inherently better or superior to monogamy. Monogamy,
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consensual no monogamy can both be great. They're just both right for different
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kinds of people, and I think
where we run into problems is when people
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try to pursue a relationship style that
is just not right for them because they
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feel pressure to be in a particular
type of relationship, something that happens from
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time to time. Justin says,
is that one partner will be very interested
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in exploring new things and the other
goes along with the idea even though it's
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not really what they want, and
we would call this sort of coerced nonmonogamy.
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And that's not a good reason to
open up your relationship and people shouldn't
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be pressured to do things that they
don't want to do. But we do
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know that this sometimes happens because let's
say you've been in a relationship for many
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years and you have this valued,
treasured connection with this other person and you
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don't want to give up that relationship, but that person also wants to have
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other relationship. So sometimes people are
willing to agree to open up the relationship
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despite the fact that that just is
not what they want at all. And
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in those situations it often doesn't turn
out well because it just wasn't a mutually
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agreed upon thing in terms of wanting
to go into it in the first place.
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Ideally, Dr Lee Miller says,
a couple the size to approach opening
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up their relationship from a point of
strength. So opening up the relationship because
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you already have great communication patterns and
you're already on the same page. That's
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when things tend to go well,
but when it's not that mutual, that's
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where problems arise. Justin says in
their work they make a very clear distinction
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between nonconsensual nonmonogamy, AK cheating or
someone isn't being totally upfront about who they're
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being sexually romantically involved with, and
our favorite word, consensual nonmonogamy, where
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everyone is on the same page and
in agreement. Says he loves you and
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and I don't know, I don't
know if he still loves me, which
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is the things are best between us
now things have been better. We make
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this pretty clear distinction between them,
but those things can overlap. For example,
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somebody who's in a polyamerous relationship can
cheat if they break their agreement that
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they have with their partner, and
somebody who is cheating can morph into having
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a consensually no monogamous relationship by coming
out about what it is that they're doing
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and everybody gets on the same page
about it. Now, is that a
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healthy model or a good model for
how to enter the world of consensual no
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monogamy? Probably not right, because
it's starting with this foundation of deceit where
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people didn't know what was up front, and the hall mark of consensual no
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monogamy is that everybody's on the same
page and they want the same things and
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there's honesty and truth, and so
I wouldn't say that that's a necessarily common
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path to say the world of polyamory
or consensual no monogamy. It does happen
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sometimes, but I think it would
be a very risky way to go.
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So how about we take a quick
break and when we come back, open
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a window into a real life relationship
that started from a point of honesty where
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both partners agreed from day one that
a monogamous relationship was not what they wanted.
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Welcome back. Today on the show
we're looking at what consensual nonmonogamy looks
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like in real life and to clarify, there are a lot of different shapes
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a relationship that is consensually non monogamous
can take. Here's Dr Justin Leigh Miller.
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I use the term consensual no monogamy
as sort of the broad umbrella term
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for anybody WHO's in a relationship that
is sexually and romantically open, where they
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can have more than one partner at
once. POLYAMORY is one of those forms
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and in Polyamory, you have multiple
sexual and or romantic partner simultaneously and there's
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usually love bonds between multiple partners.
But polyamory can look incredibly diverse. I've
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done some research on polyamory. We
actually surveyed over three thousand polyamorous people and
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ask them about their relationships and it's
just fascinating to look at the structures that
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these relationships take. But consensual nominogamy
can also include swinging, where people swap
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or exchange partners temporarily. Can also
include what we call cuckolding, where it's
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kind of like a threesome, where
there's a couple and then another person who
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comes in and one partner is watching
their partner have sex with another person but
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they're not physically involved in it.
Then there can also just be the open
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relationships or monogamish relationships, where there's
a primary relationship and there's some amount of
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freedom to pursue other sexual connections.
So the world of consensual nominogamy is incredibly
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broad and polyamory is just one of
many types within it. So I want
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to talk about this for a second. Okay, so one of those terms
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is polycule, and what is a
polycule? Polycule is any type of form
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of polyamory of people that have some
sort of relationship with each other. It
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can be romantic and that sexual,
or sexual not romantic, or just a
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group of people that some of them
are being polyamorous with each other. And
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I don't understand why it's called polycule
and not polly pocket. Yeah, seems
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like a really big missed opportunity.
It is, and I've been thinking about
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it a lot and I've been doing
some research. I found another person who
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calls it a polypocket and they are
polly. I am not. So I
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feel that I can't force terms when
it's something they don't practice. I'm considering
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just so I can say polly pocket. So I'm going to say polly pocket.
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And what situations are you going to
say polly pocket? Probably any situation
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that I can okay, good to
know. Sometimes partners agree that nonmonogamy is
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ideal and they agree right up front. We both told each other that we
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thought that an open relationship made sense
and somebody just leaving with one person for
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the rest of their lives. She
didn't seem possible and I agreed to that.
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This is Jason Ellis. I guess
I'm a professional skateboarder who does radio
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and now podcasting, and maybe I
had a couple of profiles and stuff,
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but I'm really just a podcast there
and a skateboarder. He and his wife
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have an open marriage and he identifies
as bisexual or Pan Sexual. The terminology
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with bisexuality versus Pan Sexuality is pretty
individualized and we're not going to get into
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the specifics here, but let's just
say Jason has sex with all sorts.
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At first it was more of a
team as it, where both of us
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would either meet a go or a
guy and and play around and it was
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always kind of fun and we used
to drink from this first thought, and
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so that made it easier, because
it's usually pretty messy. It would the
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girls not really into into her or
or vice versa, or the guys not
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into me, like it was always
it was never really a perfect fit.
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It was always that was okay,
but I don't really want to do that
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again with that person because of this, this and this, and I'm like,
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after a couple of years of just
like what do we act like?
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It's like a ten percent where you
hook up and you go, yeah,
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here's my number, we should do
that again, it's not even sent.
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Oh my God, we made a
mistake, but they were fun stories.
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But I think in the we got
it got, you know, it got
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I don't know, sometimes it was
I feel there's like resentment building because if
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somebody likes me or they like her
and they don't really like me, then
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we're not gonna like kick them out, like it's still going to happen and
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it's kind of like wow, this
is this kind of hurts a little bit.
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Over the years, things morphed and
they moved into different ways to explore
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the openness of their relationship. Like
I also became a lot more gay since
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I was in a relationship with my
wife. She kind of showed me grinder
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and all that kind of stuff,
and it end up being a more common
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occurrence to go off individually to have
sexual experiences, though they weren't always happening
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with the same frequency. The guys
that she hooked up with, they were
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very rare and if it did happen, if they were too emotionally connected to
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her. I got jealous and then
it was okay for me to sleep with
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guys because we were not emotionally connecting. You know, I wasn't looking for
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love, I was looking for sex, obviously, which I'm trying to get
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you off as well, but it's
purely that. And then, through therapy,
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I started to realize that that's not
really a great way to do things
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and that I have a few childhood
problems that are making me okay with this
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scenario and I should probably evolved or
stop. And then it became like if
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I hook up with a guy,
I like him, he's my friend and
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I trust him and we sleep with
each other as well. And then it
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only recently like right, and we've
actually had like problems with it, because
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all I do is get sucked off
by gay guys and she doesn't do anything,
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and it's not fair. But Jason, sleeping with women was a point
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of jealousy to some Gol was talking
to me and in my wife was like
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yeah, you can go sleep with
her, and then she saw text messages
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of me talking to her in a
nice way and annoyther and I feel like
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that was the same thing that happened
to me and I didn't want to take
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I wouldn't stand for I was like
that guy, hot EMOJI's no way like
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check this guy. There's no harder. You can clock my wife and she
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can't Emoji her and then from this, you know, because I need that,
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it's going to break. Will going
to it was either I was gonna
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completely stop or ruling a break up, or it was just like I hate
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it. I hated my life again
because it was I knew it was breaking
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my wife's hot. So, but
they didn't break up. Instead, they
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did what people in healthy relationships do. They made jokes. No, well,
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maybe, but that's not what I
mean. I mean they talked about
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it. We've been talking a lot
lately and I'm really bad at that.
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I'm reluctant to want to do that. I'm I'm a terrible communicator. Even
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with therapy, I still just like
no, doesn's wrong. So she has
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to like squeeze it out of me. And the agreed that requiring their sexual
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expiration be devoid of intimacy or romance
may not be realistic and they needed to
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try and be okay with that.
I was like, look, some of
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those guys that said you hot EMOJI's
if you want to sleep with him,
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and they like get all lovey dovey
and they want to take you to dinner
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and Shit, you should be allowed
to do that, like, I don't,
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I know. I know that it's
different, like you're not going to
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meet in a hotel room and just
go and then when you're done, you
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leave like and if he text you, like he's thinking about you, I'm
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happy thinking about like if you're going
to have sex with somebody and you know
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they really like you and they trying
to give you everything they that they have,
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who am I? It's just it's
it goes both ways, but it's
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a process. At the moment that
we talked to Jason, they were one
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of those phases where they were still
figuring it out, feelings were getting hurt
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and they were working through it together, and I can tell you that,
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yes, that's what we're doing,
but I can also tell you honestly that
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it hurts, like I'm not I've
already had scenarios of how they're going to
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talk to each other and how they're
going to have sex. That boms me
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out, like I'll do it to
myself. It hasn't even happened and I've
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already done it to myself. HMM. So it sounds like you guys are
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constantly in a process of like reevaluating
and and communicating. Is that? Would
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you say? That's right? Yeah, because it changes. Things have changed.
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We're not into the same things that
we were into. I feel like
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people we've kind of FAM different needs
that can be met and I don't know
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what you know. Okay, as
insecure as I am and confident, it
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hurts, but I think it's kind
of healthy because, yeah, I feel
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bad about it, but I think
it's good for me because I'm doing it
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and if I and when I see
it, when she does it to me,
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it makes it more obvious what I'm
doing and how I better watch my
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fucking peas and ques when it comes
to that stuff. Now, I think
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it goes without saying that Jason Story
is a great example of how a couple
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in a consensually nonmanogamous relationship has to
stay in constant communication, even when it's
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hard or uncomfortable, and having someone
neutral like a therapist on board is really
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helpful. All kinds of complicated human
situations actually do occur in real life.
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Here's Dr Martha Cowpy, and you
know, my job as a therapist is
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to help people sort out what happened, why it happened and what they want
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for themselves moving forward. So that's
to me the crucial question is what do
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you want for yourself and are you
willing to do what's required to get from
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where you are right now to wear
whatever it is that you actually want for
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yourself? And of what they want? As a consensually open relationship, it's
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going to involve becoming really good at
knowing what they want from sort of an
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internal sense of knowing, sharing that
with a partner or partners, even if
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it's hard for the partners to hear, which is basically what we heard in
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decent story, and also being able
to access curiosity instead of getting reactive when
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somebody else wants to say something that's
important to them that maybe it's hard for
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you to hear. So all of
that requires quite a bit of getting grounded,
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being kind of embodied in yourself,
able to hold and get in touch
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with your own reality, but also
at the same time holding somebody else's reality
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as important and valid, even though
there may be some disagreements, and then
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gradually a process can unfold from that
where people can decide what's right for them.
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Both awareness and communication are so important. So if monogamy isn't working for
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you, I think it's important to
remember it's not the only way to have
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a loving and meaningful really chip.
Sometimes we enter into a relationship with that
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understanding from the onset and other times
it's something that comes up later, maybe
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because of differences in sexual desires or
personalities. You know, I think these
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days I'm seeing couples who are willing
to acknowledge those discrepancies. They don't want
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to cheat, nor do they want
to give up on having a sex like
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this is Dr Ian Karner. I've
seen a lot of couples that may be
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signing up for what they hope is
going to be monogamy. Maybe they think
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that they've found their person, or
they have found their person, but there's
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something about the sex that isn't working. So I'm really finding that more and
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more couples are willing to kind of, for lack of lack of a better
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word, sort of outsource the sex
and really engage in some sort of consensual
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nonmonogamy, and very often it can
be very successful. So I admire couples
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who, you know, are willing
to really just look at the issues head
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on and say, we don't want
to go underground with this, we don't
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want to cheat, but there's really
a problem here. But let's not throw
351
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the baby out with the bath water
and are really willing to venture into nonmonogamy
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and in fact that often brings couples
much closer because that really does require communication
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and intimacy and trust. So I
have a lot of respect for a lot
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of people who are on their relationship
journeys and are really opting for nonmonogamy instead
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of a sexless relationship or instead of
potentially cheating. I really like the phrase
356
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outsourcing the sex, say inspect Ye's. It's a little like supply chain management.
357
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Of where I got that word exactly. It's fantastic. But jealousy does
358
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seem to come up a lot and
it's really good at fighting against our desire
359
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to see the person or people we
love happy. Yeah, I mean I
360
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think things like non monogamy or Polyam
or it can be very unpredictable and I
361
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think we want to have a lot
of I guess the term is called compersion,
362
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you know, when we have a
true desire for our partners to experience
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happiness. But things can happen and
you know, in surprising ways. Again,
364
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I was working with a couple and
they very consensually opened up their relationship.
365
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But this was a heterosexual partner and
the male partner found that he wasn't
366
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able to sexually perform and I he
was just like having a lot of unpredictability
367
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with his sexual function and he was
the one who was sort of leading the
368
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charge on this and meanwhile his partner
could have taken it or lead it,
369
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we've left it and was going along
for the ride, but she was just
370
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having this like total sexual liberation and
he was just filled with frustration and disappointment
371
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and he did get really jealous.
He got really jealous that she was having
372
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kind of all of these wild sexual
experiences and he wasn't. Sounds a little
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familiar right? Yeah, a little
bit. That couple that he mentioned made
374
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the decision together to open up their
marriage and it's a different path than Melissa
375
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and nick took in conversations with friends. Yeah, obviously that that other couple
376
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was in therapy together and I wonder
how common sex and relationship therapy is in
377
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Ireland. We didn't actually ask any
of the Irish folks we talked to about
378
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.839
it. I know from my obsession
with Belfast that they're definitely that's still very
379
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very churchy. They're, you know, very Catholic, because I assume that
380
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people are not as open sexually as
they are in Los Angeles, for example.
381
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.079
Yeah, I mean I don't think
sex therapy is as popular anywhere in
382
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the world as much as it is
in Los Angeles. I. New York,
383
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you know, maybe Miami, maybe
Miami. I see a lot of
384
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:52.680
situations where couples have come in and
they're like in sexless relationships or one partner's
385
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not having as much fun as they
want to be having. Rather than really
386
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:02.759
wanting to, rather than being willing
to really, you know, work on
387
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:06.960
it, they'll often just go straight
to let's, you know, open up
388
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:10.920
the relationship. And non monogamy is
something that's really in the Zeit geist right
389
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.000
now. So I feel like a
lot of people are sort of quickly going
390
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.559
to that and sometimes skipping this step
of hey, can we solve this within
391
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:27.519
our relationship, where our agreement originally
was really about monogamy. So I really
392
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:37.680
find that it works when couples can
share communicate those values early on in a
393
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relationship where there are opportunities, you
know, sometimes a couple years later,
394
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to update sort of you know,
where are we in the relationship and maybe,
395
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:55.160
you know, introduce the idea there, but I think nonmonogamy really doesn't
396
00:31:55.160 --> 00:32:00.440
work as much when you're trying to
solve some kind of problem that exists in
397
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:06.160
the relationship and they're hoping that if
you go to nonmonogamy that somehow that will
398
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:09.759
help with the relationship issue. Like
I can't tell you how many couples I
399
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:14.319
work with where they're like, you
know, we're best friends, we love
400
00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:17.200
each other's friends and families, we
go on trips together, like we want
401
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:22.720
to be in each other's lives forever, but we just don't have sex and
402
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.799
so we're going to try and you
know, kind of do some nonmonogamy to
403
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.440
satisfy sexual needs. And you know, very often those are the situations that
404
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:39.000
can lead to jealousy, those are
the situations that can lead to dissatisfaction and
405
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:45.599
distrust because for many of us it
is really hard to split sort of the
406
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:52.759
sex from the intimacy side of things
when coming up with a non monogamy agreement.
407
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:57.720
And says he likes to start slowly
and incrementally. Ideally, the couples
408
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.279
who can do this well have his
few you rules and as few limitations as
409
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:06.079
possible. I mean I was once
recently working with a couple in a nonmonogamy
410
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.880
agreement and they asked, can we
share some of our email correspondence with you,
411
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:13.799
and I was like sure, and
I printed it out and it was
412
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:19.079
like a hundred page contract, I
swear there were just like so many contingencies
413
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:23.119
for every possible situation and they haven't
even started yet. I was like,
414
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:27.960
I don't think we're starting on the
right foot here because ideally, like we
415
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.559
just want as much trust as possible
and as few rules as possible and we
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00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.839
want to like just know that we
have each other's backs and that we are,
417
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.720
you know, really prioritize in our
relationship and not doing things that we
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00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:47.000
know would really be, you know, outside of our partners comfort zone.
419
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:52.400
So, you know, a lot
of couples are interested in exploring nonmonogamy.
420
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.599
I think it's very important for each
partner to be honest about why they want
421
00:33:55.599 --> 00:34:01.079
to do it and will often start
like really slowly and do so in a
422
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:05.440
way that well, maybe we could
say, well, that didn't work,
423
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:13.199
or let's try this, without feeling
like we've taken the relationship over like an
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00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.559
existential cliff. Well, where they
lawyers? By any chance, they should
425
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:22.159
have been. They're actually struggling artists. They might have been. They each
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00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:29.239
have a career in law. But
yeah, I guess there was, you
427
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.159
know, in that, in that. What is it? There's just there's
428
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:35.159
a lot of fear, there's a
lot of anxiety, there's a lot of
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00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:39.960
potential distrust that I don't think couples
that need pages and pages of rules are
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00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:45.559
necessarily going to succeed in monogamy.
You know, some of the couples that
431
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:47.280
I've seen do it best, or
just the ones who are like look,
432
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:52.119
do your thing, I don't need
to know. Sometimes I'm with two partners
433
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:53.880
and one part they both agree on
it. In one partners like, but
434
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.800
I really want to share, I
really want to talk because it's truly going
435
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:01.159
to be bring us closer together to
share all the other the experiences were having.
436
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.599
The other partners sometimes like Hey,
just do your thing, I really
437
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:07.920
don't need to know. It's great
you're doing it, I love you,
438
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:13.320
go do it, but I really
just don't really want to know. So
439
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.239
that's another thing to get on the
same page about how you're gonna communicate about
440
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:22.239
the experiences that you've never had any
extent to which you're going to communicate or
441
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.800
how deep you're going to go in
that communication. Yeah, especially when there's
442
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:31.239
no guide book to it. Guess
what, there actually is a kind of
443
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:37.760
guide book, and the person who
noticed the lack of tools was none other
444
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:43.039
than Dr Martha Kelpy. So she
wrote a book called Polyamory, a clinical
445
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.480
tool kit for therapists and their clients, which is directed out of d audience
446
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:52.199
and her goal was to help train
therapists to be more competent and confident working
447
00:35:52.199 --> 00:36:00.960
with consensual non monogamy and also to
give couples or individuals or groups of people
448
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:07.159
who are engaged in open relationships of
any kind a little help if they aren't
449
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.199
able to find a good therapist or
if they need some more resources to support
450
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:14.960
their personal growth. And a lot
of people don't have access to therapy for
451
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:17.320
one reason or another. Either they
can't find a therapist it's polyamory friendly,
452
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:22.639
or they can't afford it or what
have you. So anyone anywhere can get
453
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.119
a copy of the book and find
some guidance. So I have a unique
454
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:31.840
viewpoint of a therapist and also a
human who knows a lot of people in
455
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:39.000
open relationships and I've seen people come
through some very tough situations and I also
456
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.239
do bunk a whole lot of myths
that come up commonly, even in books
457
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.360
that are about polyamory and favorable about
polyamory. For example, she talks about
458
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.880
what happens when you have a difference
of opinion with your partner, about opening
459
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.320
up your relationship, and how would
you begin to think through that and how
460
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.000
would you work with it? What
do you do with all of those emotions
461
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.679
that you're experiencing? How do you
handle new relationship energy? That kind of
462
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:08.000
thing. And an addition, the
book has twenty five worksheets and it so
463
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:15.760
those can be used by regular humans
who would be helped by the worksheets,
464
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:20.239
or they can be used by therapists
in their practice to help support the work
465
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.280
that they're doing. There's definitely hope
for the relationship between our characters and conversations
466
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:30.159
with friends, but they should probably
get a therapist or pick up a be
467
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:34.159
of Martha's book. We will link
it in the show notes, or both
468
00:37:34.880 --> 00:38:04.440
read therapies. It's not a word
I think there's now it's how to show.
469
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.280
This show is hosted and produced by
me. Maggie bowls and me.
470
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.719
No, I'm Gadweiser. It's written
and edited by me, with assisted editing
471
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.239
by NWAM. Our supervising producer is
Ryan Tillotson, with help from Tyler Nielsen,
472
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.760
Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the
entire Straw hut team. Theme Music
473
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.440
is by Maggie Glass and square fish, and big thanks to Aria a shy,
474
00:38:23.480 --> 00:39:00.440
Lauren Thorpe, xavior Salas and the
Hulu team show on
1
00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:12.480
Straw media, a Jay women to
get if it's ten years. Yeah,
2
00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:16.719
welcome to conversations with friends and strangers. I'm Maggie, I'm the Lam in
3
00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:20.440
the show we take a closer look
at the complicated relationships in the Hulu series
4
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.640
conversations with friends. Will meet some
of the cast and crew, chat with
5
00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:27.000
experts and share our own kind of
sexy, kind of uncomfortable, but relatable
6
00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:35.799
stories about the messy relationships we find
ourselves in. Episode Ten is our character's
7
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:40.960
first attempt at truly consensual nonmonogamy,
because everything's out in the open and that
8
00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:45.320
got us thinking. What does consensual
nonmonogamy look like in the real world?
9
00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:49.399
Wait, conversations with friends isn't a
DOCU series. We'll hear about how a
10
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:53.359
young marriage left behind a big what
if. Then we'll get an inside look
11
00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:57.560
at an open marriage with pro skate
border and podcast host Jason Ellis. And
12
00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:00.880
of course we're all hands on deck
with experts. Justin Leigh Miller, Ian
13
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.760
Kerner and Martha Cowpy to talk about
what a relationship needs in order for no
14
00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:08.120
monogamy to work. It needs pet
chickens that lay fresh eggs every morning.
15
00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:12.480
Not exactly, but that would be
nice. For now, let's recap.
16
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:21.319
So this episode, episode ten,
big episode, big episode. Melissa wants
17
00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:23.760
to talk to Francis. Yeah,
the dread in her face when she sees
18
00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:29.079
that email. It's oof. They
externalized this conversation in the series, so
19
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Frances actually go is over to their
house. Just terrifying. I could never
20
00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:36.359
do that. No Way. In
some ways it feels like the affair is
21
00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:42.000
a sign of life for Nick and
Melissa sees that Francis is having a positive
22
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.640
effect on him. He's happier,
and so she's willing to try and make
23
00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:49.359
it work. They all have dinner
together with Bobby. It's awkward, but
24
00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:55.519
there's a little humor. Their selfaware, and Melissa shares with Francis that she
25
00:01:55.560 --> 00:02:00.159
also has an alcoholic father, which
kind of signals to Francis that their relationship
26
00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:02.400
is no longer just their's. Yeah, no longer, here's a nick.
27
00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:07.280
That's a good point. Speaking of
Frances is alcoholic father, he's still not
28
00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:13.840
answering her calls and she still has
no money. Nick and Francis Start having
29
00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:17.080
conversations about children. They're saying I
love us, doing sex. They go
30
00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:23.039
out on a fancy dinner and Valerie
wants to publish Francis's short story in a
31
00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:28.080
literary magazine, but she gets a
weird voicemail from her dad. It's kind
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00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:30.039
of scary. It turns out he's
okay, kind of, but he's also
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00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:35.319
not really okay. And meanwhile bobby
is dealing with her own family drama.
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00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:38.120
Yeah, they have, both both
of them have. Both Bobby and Frances
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00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.960
have family drama going on at the
same time. They go out with some
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00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:46.639
friends and they have a great conversation
about monogamy, spontaneous consent, and then
37
00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:53.719
Bobby and Francis Kiss sweetly. This
episode has their first attempt at truly consensual
38
00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:58.120
nonmonogamy, because everyone is finally on
the same page, Adam the open,
39
00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:01.759
and so that got us thinking.
What does consensual nomonogamy look like in the
40
00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:09.560
real world? Consensual nominogamy and polyamory, interest in them is on the rise.
41
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We see this in Google searches popular
media depictions. People are increasingly interested
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00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:20.439
in understanding what it might be like
to be able to be in a sexual
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00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:24.400
and romantic relationship with more than one
person at a time. If we're going
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00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:30.120
to talk about consensual nomenogamy, we
have to bring back Doctor Justin Leah Miller.
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00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:32.360
Now, despite the fact that interest
is growing, not that many people
46
00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:38.479
have actually tried consensual nominogamy in real
life. The best available data we have
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00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:43.719
suggested about one in five North Americans
have ever been in some type of sexually
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00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:49.039
open relationship and only about five percent
are currently practicing it in some form or
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00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:54.120
another. So there's a pretty big
gap between people's fantasy about this, they're
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00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:58.719
interest in it, and the actual
reality of it. So what is holding
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00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:02.280
people back from exploring these alternatives to
monogamy? Well, for starters, there's
52
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.280
not really a model for how to
do it. They've never seen anyone in
53
00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:13.199
their own life practicing this style of
relationship and there's so much uncertainty with just
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00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.839
having one relationship as it is,
so when you start adding multiple relationships into
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00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:20.560
the mix, the complexity of that
is something that a lot of people just
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think don't feel equipped to explore on
their own, and that's where I think
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we need more relationship education that exposes
people to different models of having relationships,
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of the people can choose the kind
of relationship that is right for them,
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00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:40.720
and a lack of awareness about different
kinds of relationships can lead to some big
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00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.680
what ifs. I was spending time
with a friend the other day while we
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were working on the show. Her
name Sarah Abramson. She's an amazing photographer
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and artist, and she was telling
me a story about when she was married.
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We got married when I was twenty, okay, out a mutual friend's
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house, and after we got married
my parents bought us our first house.
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They were married for three years,
but together for longer, and there was
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a lot of love there. And
when I was married to him I felt
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00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:11.399
like I had found my tribe with
his family. Like his parents are like
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punk royalty, like his mom lived
with sit in Nancy in New York and
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his dad was in the screamers and
his aunt was the bass player. But
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black flag and like. These were
my people and I loved having them as
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a family. I talked to his
mom like once a month, probably.
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So what happened all those years ago
and how does it relate to our story?
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Well, back in San Pedro,
where Sarah's from, there's a big
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music scene and I started developing feelings
for this girl named Jessica who was the
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lead singer of a couple bands there, and she was like that person who's
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00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:58.600
the center of attention every party,
super loud, Super Fun and she was
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incredibly talented. It to I thought
she was the coolest person I'd ever met.
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Like that's just how I felt about
her, and that was like the
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general consensus among all our Pedro friends, like just because really cool, like
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00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:15.560
she's the person you go to when
you want to have fun. Yeah,
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00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.920
I can see how that would be
massively alluring. And when I met Alex,
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I mean he wasn't that, but
he was like dirty and grungy and
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punk and like as we matured and
he got like a real job computer programming
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00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:39.040
and would go to work and like
Nice clothes and, let you know,
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00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:45.920
he changed a lot and I don't
think that we changed in the same way.
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00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:48.600
Like when you're in a relationship,
especially a marriage, I think it's
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00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:54.399
really hard to grow in unison with
someone like you have to make a conscious
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00:06:54.439 --> 00:07:00.160
effort to do so and like communicate
a lot about it, which obviously we
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00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.240
weren't doing. Yeah, because I
think like people are going to grow,
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00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.399
but they're going to grow probably at
different paces. So like you're going to
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00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.839
go through one gross spurt and then
they're going to go through another one.
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00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:13.360
And you guys are going to be
constantly HMM. So back then, Sarah
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00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.759
was having these very intense feelings not
only for someone else but for another girl,
94
00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:27.240
and it was like tearing me apart, like I felt so guilty and
95
00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:35.839
I thought that if I could have
feelings for not only another person but a
96
00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:42.040
girl, that must admit I didn't
love him as much as I thought I
97
00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:47.120
did, and I like worked up
the courage to have a talk with them
98
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:57.079
and like okay. To this day
he is the best man I have ever
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00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:05.160
known and probably will ever know.
He's so smart, stupid smart, but
100
00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:11.560
never makes you feel stupid, very
intuitive, like veries Zen. He's done
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00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:18.920
a fuck kind of yoga, but
he just like knew like an he sat
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00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.680
down next to me and he was
like you don't want to grow old with
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00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:28.120
me anymore, do you? And
I just I broke down crying and we
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00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.559
talked and then he moved out the
next day. Not long after she ended
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00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:37.159
up dating Jessica, but it wasn't
really what she had imagined. My relationship
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00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.240
with her was very toxic. My
relationship with Alex, my ex husband,
107
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.519
was we literally never fought ever.
But it sounds like Jessica was like a
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00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:52.200
representation of like the experimentation and exploration
you still felt like you needed to do
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00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.080
because you were a really young person, like two thousand one hundred and twenty
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00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.240
two at this point, right.
Yeah, that's a very good insight.
111
00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:03.440
I would have to agree to that. Yeah, she was like party animal
112
00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:09.080
crazy. We literally got each other's
names tattooed on each other after being together
113
00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:15.840
for like two weeks. SMART decisions, I mean it is like it's intense,
114
00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:18.759
it's like that feeling of him though
a high. Right, totally.
115
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:24.480
Yeah, new, new relationship energy. It's hard to compete with. Yeah,
116
00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:30.639
as Sarah's gotten older and wiser and
see more possibilities in relationship structures,
117
00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:35.480
she reflects on that experience from a
new perspective. If I had known about
118
00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:41.759
open marriages and and things like that, I think we would probably still be
119
00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.399
married, because he, I'm sure
he would have agreed to anything that I
120
00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:52.440
wanted to do, because that's just
the kind of guy he is. A
121
00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.679
good one. Yeah, and a
loyal one. I broke this man's heart
122
00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.519
and he was not ever mad at
me or showed any animosity towards me a
123
00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:05.879
single time. He even told me
that I was brave for doing what I
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00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:11.799
was doing, which like, is
almost worse. Now, more than ten
125
00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:15.559
years later, he's living in Maui
with his girlfriend, and the last time
126
00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:20.960
he was in town, Sarah saw
I'm over coffee and I basically was kind
127
00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.879
of asking, like why, why
we can't be friends, like it's been
128
00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:31.679
so long now, like isn't your
girlfriend over it or whatever, and he
129
00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.360
basically said no, and he's like
do you really think we could only be
130
00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.559
friends, and I was like no, yeah, and then when we hugged
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00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:46.399
goodbye, half joking, half completely
serious, I was like call me when
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00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:54.759
you guys were but, like I
even if they do break up every like,
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00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:56.639
why would he ever get me a
second chance? You know? Well,
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that remains to be seen. That's
not a judgment that you can make,
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right, and I'm not like I
really try to live my life,
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not like waiting for Alex to be
single again, but there is a small
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part of me that is doing that. It's funny to have your ex husband
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as a what if? Yeah,
right. Sarah takes really beautiful photos and
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publishes a very cool art scene called
slow toast. Will Link Her instagram in
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the show notes so you can check
it out. Even though there's a big
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what if in Sarah Story. There's
no knowing whether or not an open marriage
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would have really worked for them.
Right, we can't really go back in
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time because consensual nonmonogamy just isn't the
right choice for everybody. Patriarchy aside,
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I do think that's some people just
prefer to be with one person. Great,
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so they're both legitimate. Yeah,
but monogamy has somehow become the default
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commitment. Should be based on desire
and choice and honesty. Okay, would
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if we just put pirious side for
a second. I just don't think it's
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im possible to love more than one
person. There are some who consider it
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to be a more evolved relationship style, if you will, but I don't
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think that it's the case that it's
inherently better or superior to monogamy. Monogamy,
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consensual no monogamy can both be great. They're just both right for different
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kinds of people, and I think
where we run into problems is when people
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try to pursue a relationship style that
is just not right for them because they
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feel pressure to be in a particular
type of relationship, something that happens from
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time to time. Justin says,
is that one partner will be very interested
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in exploring new things and the other
goes along with the idea even though it's
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not really what they want, and
we would call this sort of coerced nonmonogamy.
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And that's not a good reason to
open up your relationship and people shouldn't
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be pressured to do things that they
don't want to do. But we do
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know that this sometimes happens because let's
say you've been in a relationship for many
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years and you have this valued,
treasured connection with this other person and you
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don't want to give up that relationship, but that person also wants to have
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other relationship. So sometimes people are
willing to agree to open up the relationship
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despite the fact that that just is
not what they want at all. And
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in those situations it often doesn't turn
out well because it just wasn't a mutually
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agreed upon thing in terms of wanting
to go into it in the first place.
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Ideally, Dr Lee Miller says,
a couple the size to approach opening
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up their relationship from a point of
strength. So opening up the relationship because
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you already have great communication patterns and
you're already on the same page. That's
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when things tend to go well,
but when it's not that mutual, that's
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where problems arise. Justin says in
their work they make a very clear distinction
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between nonconsensual nonmonogamy, AK cheating or
someone isn't being totally upfront about who they're
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being sexually romantically involved with, and
our favorite word, consensual nonmonogamy, where
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everyone is on the same page and
in agreement. Says he loves you and
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and I don't know, I don't
know if he still loves me, which
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is the things are best between us
now things have been better. We make
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this pretty clear distinction between them,
but those things can overlap. For example,
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somebody who's in a polyamerous relationship can
cheat if they break their agreement that
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they have with their partner, and
somebody who is cheating can morph into having
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a consensually no monogamous relationship by coming
out about what it is that they're doing
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and everybody gets on the same page
about it. Now, is that a
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healthy model or a good model for
how to enter the world of consensual no
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monogamy? Probably not right, because
it's starting with this foundation of deceit where
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people didn't know what was up front, and the hall mark of consensual no
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monogamy is that everybody's on the same
page and they want the same things and
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there's honesty and truth, and so
I wouldn't say that that's a necessarily common
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path to say the world of polyamory
or consensual no monogamy. It does happen
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sometimes, but I think it would
be a very risky way to go.
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So how about we take a quick
break and when we come back, open
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a window into a real life relationship
that started from a point of honesty where
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both partners agreed from day one that
a monogamous relationship was not what they wanted.
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Welcome back. Today on the show
we're looking at what consensual nonmonogamy looks
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like in real life and to clarify, there are a lot of different shapes
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a relationship that is consensually non monogamous
can take. Here's Dr Justin Leigh Miller.
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I use the term consensual no monogamy
as sort of the broad umbrella term
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for anybody WHO's in a relationship that
is sexually and romantically open, where they
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can have more than one partner at
once. POLYAMORY is one of those forms
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and in Polyamory, you have multiple
sexual and or romantic partner simultaneously and there's
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usually love bonds between multiple partners.
But polyamory can look incredibly diverse. I've
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done some research on polyamory. We
actually surveyed over three thousand polyamorous people and
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ask them about their relationships and it's
just fascinating to look at the structures that
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these relationships take. But consensual nominogamy
can also include swinging, where people swap
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or exchange partners temporarily. Can also
include what we call cuckolding, where it's
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kind of like a threesome, where
there's a couple and then another person who
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comes in and one partner is watching
their partner have sex with another person but
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they're not physically involved in it.
Then there can also just be the open
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relationships or monogamish relationships, where there's
a primary relationship and there's some amount of
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freedom to pursue other sexual connections.
So the world of consensual nominogamy is incredibly
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broad and polyamory is just one of
many types within it. So I want
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to talk about this for a second. Okay, so one of those terms
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is polycule, and what is a
polycule? Polycule is any type of form
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of polyamory of people that have some
sort of relationship with each other. It
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can be romantic and that sexual,
or sexual not romantic, or just a
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group of people that some of them
are being polyamorous with each other. And
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I don't understand why it's called polycule
and not polly pocket. Yeah, seems
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like a really big missed opportunity.
It is, and I've been thinking about
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it a lot and I've been doing
some research. I found another person who
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calls it a polypocket and they are
polly. I am not. So I
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feel that I can't force terms when
it's something they don't practice. I'm considering
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just so I can say polly pocket. So I'm going to say polly pocket.
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And what situations are you going to
say polly pocket? Probably any situation
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that I can okay, good to
know. Sometimes partners agree that nonmonogamy is
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ideal and they agree right up front. We both told each other that we
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thought that an open relationship made sense
and somebody just leaving with one person for
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the rest of their lives. She
didn't seem possible and I agreed to that.
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This is Jason Ellis. I guess
I'm a professional skateboarder who does radio
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and now podcasting, and maybe I
had a couple of profiles and stuff,
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but I'm really just a podcast there
and a skateboarder. He and his wife
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have an open marriage and he identifies
as bisexual or Pan Sexual. The terminology
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with bisexuality versus Pan Sexuality is pretty
individualized and we're not going to get into
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the specifics here, but let's just
say Jason has sex with all sorts.
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At first it was more of a
team as it, where both of us
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would either meet a go or a
guy and and play around and it was
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always kind of fun and we used
to drink from this first thought, and
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so that made it easier, because
it's usually pretty messy. It would the
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girls not really into into her or
or vice versa, or the guys not
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into me, like it was always
it was never really a perfect fit.
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It was always that was okay,
but I don't really want to do that
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again with that person because of this, this and this, and I'm like,
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after a couple of years of just
like what do we act like?
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It's like a ten percent where you
hook up and you go, yeah,
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here's my number, we should do
that again, it's not even sent.
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Oh my God, we made a
mistake, but they were fun stories.
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But I think in the we got
it got, you know, it got
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I don't know, sometimes it was
I feel there's like resentment building because if
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somebody likes me or they like her
and they don't really like me, then
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we're not gonna like kick them out, like it's still going to happen and
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it's kind of like wow, this
is this kind of hurts a little bit.
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Over the years, things morphed and
they moved into different ways to explore
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the openness of their relationship. Like
I also became a lot more gay since
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I was in a relationship with my
wife. She kind of showed me grinder
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and all that kind of stuff,
and it end up being a more common
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occurrence to go off individually to have
sexual experiences, though they weren't always happening
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with the same frequency. The guys
that she hooked up with, they were
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very rare and if it did happen, if they were too emotionally connected to
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her. I got jealous and then
it was okay for me to sleep with
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guys because we were not emotionally connecting. You know, I wasn't looking for
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love, I was looking for sex, obviously, which I'm trying to get
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you off as well, but it's
purely that. And then, through therapy,
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I started to realize that that's not
really a great way to do things
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and that I have a few childhood
problems that are making me okay with this
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scenario and I should probably evolved or
stop. And then it became like if
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I hook up with a guy,
I like him, he's my friend and
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I trust him and we sleep with
each other as well. And then it
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only recently like right, and we've
actually had like problems with it, because
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all I do is get sucked off
by gay guys and she doesn't do anything,
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and it's not fair. But Jason, sleeping with women was a point
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of jealousy to some Gol was talking
to me and in my wife was like
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yeah, you can go sleep with
her, and then she saw text messages
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of me talking to her in a
nice way and annoyther and I feel like
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that was the same thing that happened
to me and I didn't want to take
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I wouldn't stand for I was like
that guy, hot EMOJI's no way like
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check this guy. There's no harder. You can clock my wife and she
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can't Emoji her and then from this, you know, because I need that,
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it's going to break. Will going
to it was either I was gonna
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completely stop or ruling a break up, or it was just like I hate
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it. I hated my life again
because it was I knew it was breaking
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my wife's hot. So, but
they didn't break up. Instead, they
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did what people in healthy relationships do. They made jokes. No, well,
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maybe, but that's not what I
mean. I mean they talked about
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it. We've been talking a lot
lately and I'm really bad at that.
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I'm reluctant to want to do that. I'm I'm a terrible communicator. Even
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with therapy, I still just like
no, doesn's wrong. So she has
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to like squeeze it out of me. And the agreed that requiring their sexual
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expiration be devoid of intimacy or romance
may not be realistic and they needed to
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try and be okay with that.
I was like, look, some of
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those guys that said you hot EMOJI's
if you want to sleep with him,
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and they like get all lovey dovey
and they want to take you to dinner
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and Shit, you should be allowed
to do that, like, I don't,
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I know. I know that it's
different, like you're not going to
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meet in a hotel room and just
go and then when you're done, you
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leave like and if he text you, like he's thinking about you, I'm
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happy thinking about like if you're going
to have sex with somebody and you know
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they really like you and they trying
to give you everything they that they have,
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who am I? It's just it's
it goes both ways, but it's
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a process. At the moment that
we talked to Jason, they were one
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of those phases where they were still
figuring it out, feelings were getting hurt
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and they were working through it together, and I can tell you that,
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yes, that's what we're doing,
but I can also tell you honestly that
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it hurts, like I'm not I've
already had scenarios of how they're going to
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talk to each other and how they're
going to have sex. That boms me
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out, like I'll do it to
myself. It hasn't even happened and I've
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already done it to myself. HMM. So it sounds like you guys are
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constantly in a process of like reevaluating
and and communicating. Is that? Would
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you say? That's right? Yeah, because it changes. Things have changed.
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We're not into the same things that
we were into. I feel like
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people we've kind of FAM different needs
that can be met and I don't know
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what you know. Okay, as
insecure as I am and confident, it
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hurts, but I think it's kind
of healthy because, yeah, I feel
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bad about it, but I think
it's good for me because I'm doing it
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and if I and when I see
it, when she does it to me,
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it makes it more obvious what I'm
doing and how I better watch my
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fucking peas and ques when it comes
to that stuff. Now, I think
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it goes without saying that Jason Story
is a great example of how a couple
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in a consensually nonmanogamous relationship has to
stay in constant communication, even when it's
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hard or uncomfortable, and having someone
neutral like a therapist on board is really
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helpful. All kinds of complicated human
situations actually do occur in real life.
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Here's Dr Martha Cowpy, and you
know, my job as a therapist is
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to help people sort out what happened, why it happened and what they want
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for themselves moving forward. So that's
to me the crucial question is what do
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you want for yourself and are you
willing to do what's required to get from
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where you are right now to wear
whatever it is that you actually want for
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yourself? And of what they want? As a consensually open relationship, it's
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going to involve becoming really good at
knowing what they want from sort of an
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internal sense of knowing, sharing that
with a partner or partners, even if
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it's hard for the partners to hear, which is basically what we heard in
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decent story, and also being able
to access curiosity instead of getting reactive when
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somebody else wants to say something that's
important to them that maybe it's hard for
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you to hear. So all of
that requires quite a bit of getting grounded,
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being kind of embodied in yourself,
able to hold and get in touch
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with your own reality, but also
at the same time holding somebody else's reality
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as important and valid, even though
there may be some disagreements, and then
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gradually a process can unfold from that
where people can decide what's right for them.
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Both awareness and communication are so important. So if monogamy isn't working for
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you, I think it's important to
remember it's not the only way to have
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a loving and meaningful really chip.
Sometimes we enter into a relationship with that
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understanding from the onset and other times
it's something that comes up later, maybe
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because of differences in sexual desires or
personalities. You know, I think these
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days I'm seeing couples who are willing
to acknowledge those discrepancies. They don't want
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to cheat, nor do they want
to give up on having a sex like
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this is Dr Ian Karner. I've
seen a lot of couples that may be
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signing up for what they hope is
going to be monogamy. Maybe they think
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that they've found their person, or
they have found their person, but there's
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something about the sex that isn't working. So I'm really finding that more and
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more couples are willing to kind of, for lack of lack of a better
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word, sort of outsource the sex
and really engage in some sort of consensual
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nonmonogamy, and very often it can
be very successful. So I admire couples
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who, you know, are willing
to really just look at the issues head
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on and say, we don't want
to go underground with this, we don't
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want to cheat, but there's really
a problem here. But let's not throw
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the baby out with the bath water
and are really willing to venture into nonmonogamy
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and in fact that often brings couples
much closer because that really does require communication
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and intimacy and trust. So I
have a lot of respect for a lot
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of people who are on their relationship
journeys and are really opting for nonmonogamy instead
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of a sexless relationship or instead of
potentially cheating. I really like the phrase
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outsourcing the sex, say inspect Ye's. It's a little like supply chain management.
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Of where I got that word exactly. It's fantastic. But jealousy does
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seem to come up a lot and
it's really good at fighting against our desire
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to see the person or people we
love happy. Yeah, I mean I
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think things like non monogamy or Polyam
or it can be very unpredictable and I
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think we want to have a lot
of I guess the term is called compersion,
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you know, when we have a
true desire for our partners to experience
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happiness. But things can happen and
you know, in surprising ways. Again,
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I was working with a couple and
they very consensually opened up their relationship.
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But this was a heterosexual partner and
the male partner found that he wasn't
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able to sexually perform and I he
was just like having a lot of unpredictability
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with his sexual function and he was
the one who was sort of leading the
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charge on this and meanwhile his partner
could have taken it or lead it,
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we've left it and was going along
for the ride, but she was just
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having this like total sexual liberation and
he was just filled with frustration and disappointment
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and he did get really jealous.
He got really jealous that she was having
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kind of all of these wild sexual
experiences and he wasn't. Sounds a little
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familiar right? Yeah, a little
bit. That couple that he mentioned made
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the decision together to open up their
marriage and it's a different path than Melissa
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and nick took in conversations with friends. Yeah, obviously that that other couple
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was in therapy together and I wonder
how common sex and relationship therapy is in
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Ireland. We didn't actually ask any
of the Irish folks we talked to about
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it. I know from my obsession
with Belfast that they're definitely that's still very
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very churchy. They're, you know, very Catholic, because I assume that
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people are not as open sexually as
they are in Los Angeles, for example.
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Yeah, I mean I don't think
sex therapy is as popular anywhere in
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the world as much as it is
in Los Angeles. I. New York,
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you know, maybe Miami, maybe
Miami. I see a lot of
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situations where couples have come in and
they're like in sexless relationships or one partner's
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not having as much fun as they
want to be having. Rather than really
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wanting to, rather than being willing
to really, you know, work on
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it, they'll often just go straight
to let's, you know, open up
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the relationship. And non monogamy is
something that's really in the Zeit geist right
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now. So I feel like a
lot of people are sort of quickly going
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to that and sometimes skipping this step
of hey, can we solve this within
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our relationship, where our agreement originally
was really about monogamy. So I really
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find that it works when couples can
share communicate those values early on in a
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relationship where there are opportunities, you
know, sometimes a couple years later,
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to update sort of you know,
where are we in the relationship and maybe,
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you know, introduce the idea there, but I think nonmonogamy really doesn't
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work as much when you're trying to
solve some kind of problem that exists in
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the relationship and they're hoping that if
you go to nonmonogamy that somehow that will
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help with the relationship issue. Like
I can't tell you how many couples I
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work with where they're like, you
know, we're best friends, we love
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00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:17.200
each other's friends and families, we
go on trips together, like we want
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00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:22.720
to be in each other's lives forever, but we just don't have sex and
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00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.799
so we're going to try and you
know, kind of do some nonmonogamy to
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00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.440
satisfy sexual needs. And you know, very often those are the situations that
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can lead to jealousy, those are
the situations that can lead to dissatisfaction and
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distrust because for many of us it
is really hard to split sort of the
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00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:52.759
sex from the intimacy side of things
when coming up with a non monogamy agreement.
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And says he likes to start slowly
and incrementally. Ideally, the couples
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00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.279
who can do this well have his
few you rules and as few limitations as
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00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:06.079
possible. I mean I was once
recently working with a couple in a nonmonogamy
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00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.880
agreement and they asked, can we
share some of our email correspondence with you,
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and I was like sure, and
I printed it out and it was
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00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:19.079
like a hundred page contract, I
swear there were just like so many contingencies
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00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:23.119
for every possible situation and they haven't
even started yet. I was like,
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I don't think we're starting on the
right foot here because ideally, like we
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00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.559
just want as much trust as possible
and as few rules as possible and we
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00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.839
want to like just know that we
have each other's backs and that we are,
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00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.720
you know, really prioritize in our
relationship and not doing things that we
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00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:47.000
know would really be, you know, outside of our partners comfort zone.
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So, you know, a lot
of couples are interested in exploring nonmonogamy.
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00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.599
I think it's very important for each
partner to be honest about why they want
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00:33:55.599 --> 00:34:01.079
to do it and will often start
like really slowly and do so in a
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00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:05.440
way that well, maybe we could
say, well, that didn't work,
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00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:13.199
or let's try this, without feeling
like we've taken the relationship over like an
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00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.559
existential cliff. Well, where they
lawyers? By any chance, they should
425
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:22.159
have been. They're actually struggling artists. They might have been. They each
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00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:29.239
have a career in law. But
yeah, I guess there was, you
427
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.159
know, in that, in that. What is it? There's just there's
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a lot of fear, there's a
lot of anxiety, there's a lot of
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00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:39.960
potential distrust that I don't think couples
that need pages and pages of rules are
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00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:45.559
necessarily going to succeed in monogamy.
You know, some of the couples that
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00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:47.280
I've seen do it best, or
just the ones who are like look,
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00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:52.119
do your thing, I don't need
to know. Sometimes I'm with two partners
433
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:53.880
and one part they both agree on
it. In one partners like, but
434
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.800
I really want to share, I
really want to talk because it's truly going
435
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:01.159
to be bring us closer together to
share all the other the experiences were having.
436
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.599
The other partners sometimes like Hey,
just do your thing, I really
437
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:07.920
don't need to know. It's great
you're doing it, I love you,
438
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:13.320
go do it, but I really
just don't really want to know. So
439
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.239
that's another thing to get on the
same page about how you're gonna communicate about
440
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:22.239
the experiences that you've never had any
extent to which you're going to communicate or
441
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.800
how deep you're going to go in
that communication. Yeah, especially when there's
442
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:31.239
no guide book to it. Guess
what, there actually is a kind of
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00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:37.760
guide book, and the person who
noticed the lack of tools was none other
444
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:43.039
than Dr Martha Kelpy. So she
wrote a book called Polyamory, a clinical
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00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.480
tool kit for therapists and their clients, which is directed out of d audience
446
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:52.199
and her goal was to help train
therapists to be more competent and confident working
447
00:35:52.199 --> 00:36:00.960
with consensual non monogamy and also to
give couples or individuals or groups of people
448
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:07.159
who are engaged in open relationships of
any kind a little help if they aren't
449
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.199
able to find a good therapist or
if they need some more resources to support
450
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:14.960
their personal growth. And a lot
of people don't have access to therapy for
451
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:17.320
one reason or another. Either they
can't find a therapist it's polyamory friendly,
452
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:22.639
or they can't afford it or what
have you. So anyone anywhere can get
453
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.119
a copy of the book and find
some guidance. So I have a unique
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00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:31.840
viewpoint of a therapist and also a
human who knows a lot of people in
455
00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:39.000
open relationships and I've seen people come
through some very tough situations and I also
456
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.239
do bunk a whole lot of myths
that come up commonly, even in books
457
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.360
that are about polyamory and favorable about
polyamory. For example, she talks about
458
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.880
what happens when you have a difference
of opinion with your partner, about opening
459
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.320
up your relationship, and how would
you begin to think through that and how
460
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.000
would you work with it? What
do you do with all of those emotions
461
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.679
that you're experiencing? How do you
handle new relationship energy? That kind of
462
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:08.000
thing. And an addition, the
book has twenty five worksheets and it so
463
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:15.760
those can be used by regular humans
who would be helped by the worksheets,
464
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:20.239
or they can be used by therapists
in their practice to help support the work
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00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.280
that they're doing. There's definitely hope
for the relationship between our characters and conversations
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00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:30.159
with friends, but they should probably
get a therapist or pick up a be
467
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:34.159
of Martha's book. We will link
it in the show notes, or both
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00:37:34.880 --> 00:38:04.440
read therapies. It's not a word
I think there's now it's how to show.
469
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.280
This show is hosted and produced by
me. Maggie bowls and me.
470
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.719
No, I'm Gadweiser. It's written
and edited by me, with assisted editing
471
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.239
by NWAM. Our supervising producer is
Ryan Tillotson, with help from Tyler Nielsen,
472
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.760
Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the
entire Straw hut team. Theme Music
473
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.440
is by Maggie Glass and square fish, and big thanks to Aria a shy,
474
00:38:23.480 --> 00:39:00.440
Lauren Thorpe, xavior Salas and the
Hulu team show on
