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00:00:11.839Welcome to Conversations, where today we have Jeremiah Burke, who is an author of Leading with Grace: Faith-Inspired Principles for Empowering Leadership and Operations.
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00:00:27.760He is the director of Global Reach Leadership Institute, a speaker, leadership coach, and veteran strategist who is passionate about equipping everyday believers to lead with clarity, courage, and compassion.
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00:00:29.280The three C's.
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00:00:31.359Welcome to the show, Jeremiah.
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00:00:32.960How are you today?
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00:00:34.479Oh, thank you for having me.
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00:00:35.840I am doing wonderful.
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00:00:46.320Um, you know, very blessed to have written this book and you know, blessed to have met you and your website and and uh to talk to have this conversation.
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00:00:52.240Yeah, we've had a few different engagements together, which has been fun to partner with you on those.
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00:00:56.799And I would love to first ask you what prompted you to write this book?
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00:01:01.039So it was uh about a 15-year journey, actually.
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00:01:01.520Yeah.
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00:01:05.760So I was going through leadership training in the military.
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00:01:14.879And uh one night I was just thinking, I was like, you know, man, God's truth is God's truth, even if man discovers it a different way.
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00:01:21.680It's like there's got to be a correlation there with the leadership stuff I'm learning and biblical principles.
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00:01:36.400And started researching, I had a notebook, and and you know, not if I left the right time, and I guess God was working the the uh wisdom part of it, because later on, fast forward, God put somebody in my life that inspired me to like, no, I can really write this book, you know.
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00:01:45.040And the more I got into it, the more I realized, you know, everybody says the Bible is the blueprint of your life, but every almost every story is about leadership.
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00:01:48.719You know, you take a Moses, you Nehemiah, you know, all of it.
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00:01:56.560It's they're leading and they're in their influencing and you know, showing God through their leadership and strength and all that.
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00:01:58.799So that was kind of inspiration for the book.
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00:01:59.840That's terrific.
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00:02:04.239And I love how he brought somebody into your life to then inspire you, right?
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00:02:13.680God's word inspired you, and then it's it's fun how he orchestrates things, and then you had the confidence to to move forward with that.
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00:02:15.039So congratulations.
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00:02:16.000Yeah, thanks.
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00:02:17.039With that.
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00:02:24.560Well, typically when people think about leadership, it's all about dominance or control, even hustle.
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00:02:28.400And so, what does it mean to lead with grace?
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00:02:37.120I think it's, you know, the first part is you got to lead yourself, you know, that self-leadership, that self-reflection.
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00:02:40.400Before you can lead anybody else, you have to have your own house in order.
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00:02:44.719So leading with grace, it's about redefining leadership.
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00:02:48.400It's about stewarding influence, it's not about asserting control.
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00:02:51.759You know, you're being a steward, your followers are your steward of them.
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00:03:14.719And so it's it's replacing authority with authenticity, power with purpose, and you know, and replacing dominance with discipleship, you know, actually investing into your people and trying to raise them up instead of just, you know, always say, you know, you know, we got totally managers in the workforce, we need leaders in the workforce, and there's a big difference between the two.
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00:03:20.960You know, there's a ton of books out there on how to manage and what to how to tell your people what to do and all that.
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00:03:30.879But you know, but that's where this book kind of is an internal reflection, and also some some tips and tricks that to look at a problem set in different ways.
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00:03:39.599You know, you know, there's different ways to manage people and also learning how to learn your people to know what works and what doesn't.
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00:03:47.199So I think when when maybe some people think of grace, they think of it as being soft.
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00:03:52.319Is it necessarily leading with grace soft?
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00:03:54.800No, I wouldn't say that.
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00:04:03.120I mean, um, you know, I talk about like certain leadership, you know, not to mistake that, you know, some people mistake that for weakness.
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00:04:11.919And it's like, and you know, don't, you know, and it's like don't get run over by trying to be a certain leadership, but you know, it it is a strength because people see a difference.
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00:04:17.120They see you're invested in their well-being and their health, and and they most people respond to that.
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00:04:26.959A good example, you know, a perfect example of leadership is Jesus himself, you know, and he he was you know like the woman of the world, he was soft, gentle.
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00:04:36.399And then with the Pharisees, he was kind of more direct and you know firm, I guess in the best way.
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00:04:46.560And then, you know, he even redeemed his disciples and and at the same time tried to teach them and then came to the people with parables because that was the way they learned at the time and all that, but at the same time, he was never controlling.
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00:04:59.279So that so I wouldn't say that's soft leadership because there was times when he really let them know they had missed the mark, you know, it's like there has to be a balance of that in leadership, right?
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00:05:08.639And and having those truth-filled conversations and there's consequences, there has to be accountability, all those things around leadership.
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00:05:18.560Yeah, and and leading with grace, you know, uh I didn't talk about like some of the leadership styles that get a bad name, like micromanaging or a more dominant leadership style.
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00:05:19.920Sometimes those are needed.
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00:05:32.079Like micromanaging, like if you like the specs have to be exact, you're gonna be a little more involved, you know, or and then also too, that that more authoritative leadership.
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00:05:35.360Some people, unfortunately, that's all they respond to, or that's all they understand.
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00:05:40.319So you got to meet them there, you know, and be a little more say dominant with that person.
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00:05:44.480Well, you mentioned self-leadership.
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00:06:01.040So why is self-leadership, which we both know is super important, mastering the mind, body, spirit, and soul essential for trying to lead others or helping, you know, your own leadership lead others?
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00:06:10.879Yeah, you know, uh was it Luke, Luke Sixth, I think it is, you know, removing the plank from your own eye, you know, before you know, helping somebody else.
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00:06:12.399You know, that's self-leadership.
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00:06:18.000That's that's you know, your that internal reflection because if you're how can you lead somebody if you're not doing it?
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00:06:23.920You know, it's like how how how can you tell somebody they need to show up on time if you don't show up on time?
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00:06:27.439You know, it's it's it's it's it seems simple, but it isn't.
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00:06:29.199It's a it's a lifelong journey.
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00:06:32.079But you you can't lead from an empty cup.
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00:06:45.600You know, your your physical habits, your mental clarity, your spiritual walk, emotional resilience, you have to you have to focus on all those things to to be that balanced leader that's needed to lead people.
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00:06:48.160Uh, because you're they're looking at you, they're looking up to you.
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00:06:51.920You you have to be the model, you know, you are the model that you want your people to do.
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00:07:01.360And so I think it's a very important that you know that that you do that self-reflection, you know, and and look at yourself and what you can help yourself with.
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00:07:03.439Absolutely.
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00:07:19.839I remember when I first heard of self-leadership, and it just was like a light bulb went off in my head, where you know how imperative it is if you are a leader to first, and you talked about, you know, being an order yourself first.
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00:07:38.800You know, we can't effectively lead others unless we are sitting in a place of of being a healthy leader, not a toxic leader, not a dominant leader, not always authoritative sometimes, perhaps, as you said, but really coming from a point of being grace-filled.
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00:07:43.920And I love that being, you know, self-leadership, but grace-filled.
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00:07:45.519I mean grace-filled leadership.
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00:07:50.399And and the reason I say grace-filled, because you there's a certain amount of grace that you have to have with yourself.
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00:07:51.439Oh, yes.
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00:08:02.160You know, you have to, you know, you know, like even three 360 feedback, you know, listening to your followers and having the grace to say, yeah, they're kind of right, and I'm I'm messing up here.
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00:08:04.720I need to, I need to be better at this thing.
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00:08:08.399And there's a grace to that, a grace to yourself that you have to impart.
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00:08:20.399And and I think that's you know, that's you need that that grace first of yourself before you can build yourself up and and and uh take care of those different aspects of your of your person.
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00:08:39.600So that's super important when we're hearing feedback to have that grace, you know, just be cloaked with grace and and to sit in those spaces of hearing sometimes really difficult things about your leadership or how people are perceiving your leadership, even.
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00:08:48.000Yeah, and you gotta encourage you gotta encourage that because people, you know, your your followers aren't gonna tell you if they don't think they can approach you.
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00:08:54.639And you so you need to show that grace to them, letting them know that, hey, if I'm not missing the mark, you know, please tell me.
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00:08:58.080I have an open door, come in, and we can discuss it and truly discuss it.
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00:09:11.120Don't dismiss what they're saying, even if you might disagree with them or you know, they might not see the whole picture, but still let them, you know, make them feel heard and and and then go from there and then show that you're trying to be a better leader.
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00:09:29.840And that's that's that's a humbleness that a lot of leaders it's hard for them to to get because again, that's where grace comes in, because you know, you have you're supposed to be the guy, the person with all the answers, you know, and and you got to have that grace to say, hey, you know, I'm listening to you, you're right, and try to make a difference, you know, try to change yourself and all that.
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00:09:31.200And that's that's that's hard.
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00:09:33.519It sounds simple, but it's very hard to do.
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00:09:35.919It is, and and again, the perception.
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00:09:40.320I was last week, I was somewhere and I was having a conversation.
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00:09:50.879I was asked what I did, and I told them, you know, I work in leader and team development, and this person said, Oh, leaders, big heads, you know.
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00:09:59.519And and it made me sad because yes, some leaders do have big heads, right?
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00:10:04.720And yeah, and the ego gets the best of them and whatnot.
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00:10:23.120But we need to help leaders see that there is a heart to leadership and there's a heartbeat that you have as a leader, and it's important to understand, you know, what what is the perception of my leadership?
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00:10:28.240If it's that you have a big head, there's a problem there, right?
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00:10:29.120Yeah.
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00:10:30.320Yeah.
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00:10:32.879And and and it it's hard for leaders too.
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00:10:34.720You know, they always say it's lonely at the top.
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00:10:40.080You know, who do they go to to seek guidance to to bounce ideas off of?
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00:10:43.279You know, and a lot of organizations, they're they're the top.
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00:10:46.720There is nobody else that they can be vulnerable to like that.
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00:10:56.000So, you know, I've always encouraged people to find mentors, find, you know, people outside the organization, but at the same level of leadership or management and bounce those ideas off.
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00:11:02.960I mean, that's one thing to one of the things we do in global reach is you know, that it's leadership, health, and wellness coaching.
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00:11:09.519You know, it's it's not just achieving goals, but it's like, okay, let's do it, let's do a gut check, you know, where's your headspace at?
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00:11:10.879Where you where are you?
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00:11:12.080And and do that.
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00:11:23.759So we focus a lot on that mental health aspect of it because you know, you you might be getting that big head, like you said, and not even realize it or being perceived that way with with your followers and all that.
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00:11:25.519So it's it's it's very important.
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00:11:27.440That's where that self-reflection comes in.
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00:11:28.000Yeah.
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00:11:44.399And it's interesting that you say that because I think one of the misconceptions about let's just say executive coaching is always strategy around the vision, the mission, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
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00:11:57.440Where many times, and I'm sure this is exactly what you're saying too, is you're sitting with and you're partnering with a very high-level leader that is still a human.
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00:11:58.240Right.
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00:11:58.639Right.
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00:11:59.600Absolutely.
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00:12:02.320And still has all these things going on.
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00:12:03.120Yeah.
00:12:03.279 -->
00:12:09.759And unfortunately, in the hustle culture, they're not, they don't have time to, you know, or feel like they have time to address their own issues.
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00:12:12.480And so they just compartmentalize it and push it away.
00:12:12.639 -->
00:12:14.399But it's gonna, it's gonna come to the surface.
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00:12:19.600It's gonna show in how you act, how you treat people, you know, and and how you lead.
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00:12:20.159Yeah.
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00:12:25.120Yeah, and there's a place for the you know, strategizing vision and goal and all that.
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00:12:34.399But there again, if you don't have that that self-awareness and that that you know, self-help, it's not it's gonna fall flat.
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00:12:36.639It's not gonna be as effective as you would like it to be.
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00:12:37.919I mean, both are important.
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00:12:47.519And really taking that pause out of your day to partner with somebody and have that self-reflection, like you're saying, is super important.
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00:12:48.159Yeah.
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00:13:16.080Yeah, and you know, and and recently, you know, I know a book came out with Charlie Kirk, and he was talking about taking the Sabbath, you know, taking a day for yourself, and you make that makes you such more of a effective leader, you know, that and and it you know, sometimes you can't afford a day, unfortunately, you know, but but finding that space, you gotta find space where you're just reflecting and praying and and and just you know, recentering yourself, you know.
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00:13:27.600You know, maybe it's in the morning, keep the office door closed for an extra 20 minutes, 10, 20 minutes, and get your head spaced right before you open that door and you start leading, you know, kind of thing.
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00:13:29.360And that can be hard.
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00:13:42.080I know for me, it was really hard because I I work from home and so my office, like many people, it's always here, right?
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00:13:44.559And I like how you said close a door.
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00:13:52.639It's it's taken me, I've I've been practicing, and I think that's again with great, you have to give yourself grace during these times.
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00:13:58.720I've had to give myself grace and and say, today I'm I'm just not working.
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00:14:00.639This is you know, my Sabbath.
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00:14:02.080I am not working.
00:14:03.360 -->
00:14:13.679And it took me a while to get into a rhythm of first giving myself permission to do that because there's always going to be something right that needs to be done.
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00:14:21.440You have a checklist, needs to be done, important to be done, but it's gonna be there the next time you step in.
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00:14:21.919Yeah.
00:14:22.159 -->
00:14:28.399And so for me, just the practice it was a intentional practice for me.
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00:14:37.840Again, permission first, followed by the action of not doing, which can be very difficult for some leaders.
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00:14:38.399Yeah.
00:14:38.559 -->
00:14:38.799Yeah.
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00:14:48.480In my office, I literally have a prayer closet, you know, not a closet, but but I'd have a kneeler podium with my Bible and a cross, and it's on the other side of the desk away from the computer screens.
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00:14:50.000It's actually facing the wall.
00:14:50.159 -->
00:14:55.200So nothing in my office is distracting me while I'm spending that time in prayer and all that.
00:14:55.360 -->
00:14:58.159So I found that works for me to be able to turn everything off.
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00:15:03.679You know, everybody has to find that that way to turn it off, you know, and everybody, you know, everybody's different.
00:15:03.759 -->
00:15:10.159So what it what works, but you gotta find some way, and like you said, give yourself permission to have that have that space and all that.
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00:15:17.360So well, let's get into which is always an interesting topic of discerning God's voice.
00:15:17.519 -->
00:15:24.399So when we think about that, you know, whether this is, you know, a Christian coach, a leader.
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00:15:27.600How do we discern God's voice?
00:15:27.679 -->
00:15:29.840And this could be decision making.
00:15:30.639 -->
00:15:31.519Let's stick there.
00:15:31.679 -->
00:15:44.720So on on decision making, because it's it's one of those things where when people first hear, I heard from God, I know sometimes people get that feeling like that's kind of weird.
00:15:44.960 -->
00:15:46.399Let's just call it that.
00:15:46.720 -->
00:15:55.919I think it's a beautiful thing, and I've I've learned to recognize for myself what that's like, but I would love to hear from you about discernment.
00:15:56.639 -->
00:16:01.840So we'll start out with the the first thing, you know, like you said, people say, Oh, you heard from God.
00:16:02.000 -->
00:16:10.879And there's a danger there of your own inner desires, and and you put it on that that on that label, like, oh yeah, God told me to do this because that's what you wanted to do.
00:16:11.200 -->
00:16:19.039So you that's where it's it should be a process, in my opinion, to to discern God's voice and to and to make sure it is truly godly.
00:16:19.200 -->
00:16:24.240It's not, you know, just a voice from heaven necessarily, because God's going to confirm it.
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00:16:26.960He's not a god of chaos, he's not, you know.
00:16:27.200 -->
00:16:33.440So in the book, I talk about how leaders are over informed and under inspired.
00:16:33.600 -->
00:16:41.360You know, they have always from the world, and you know, they're making decisions based on that, and it gets harder to hear God's voice.
00:16:41.919 -->
00:16:46.879So there again, it it goes back to that that quiet time, you know, like that we talked about.
00:16:47.120 -->
00:16:50.320That you're you're shutting the noise of the world off so you can focus on God.
00:16:50.960 -->
00:16:58.080So to me, there's there's three filters of discernment scripture, you know, it has to line up with scripture.
00:16:58.399 -->
00:17:02.879So if you think you're hearing from God, that's gotta be the first criteria.
00:17:02.960 -->
00:17:03.919It has to line up with scripture.
00:17:04.079 -->
00:17:05.839If it doesn't, it's not God.
00:17:06.400 -->
00:17:07.359Pretty obvious.
00:17:08.160 -->
00:17:16.400Your spirit, you know, do you have peace with it or unrest with it when you're praying about it, you know?
00:17:16.480 -->
00:17:19.359Because if if there's unrest, is that from God?
00:17:19.440 -->
00:17:21.759You know, you gotta you gotta question that then, you know.
00:17:22.000 -->
00:17:29.279But if you have a piece about it, and there were some times that I stepped out in faith, but I wasn't even nervous about it when I should have been.
00:17:29.359 -->
00:17:34.640You know, there was just this piece like, I know, I know I know this is the correction, you know.
00:17:34.799 -->
00:17:39.839And other times, I mean, I'll say even writing this book, I was uncertain and because it wasn't the right time.
00:17:39.920 -->
00:17:42.240I had the knowledge, but I didn't have the experience.
00:17:42.400 -->
00:17:48.480You know, I I learned so much more about leadership because I was a young, you know, young in the military at that point, young rank and all that.
00:17:48.559 -->
00:17:52.160And I moved up the ranks, and every rank I learned a little more about leadership.
00:17:52.480 -->
00:18:02.720And so it it wasn't the right time, and I felt uneasy and unrest, and I was like, oh, you know, I mean, with also with the oh not getting up to even write a book, you know, kind of thing, those self-doubts, too.
00:18:02.880 -->
00:18:11.839But when I really sat down and made it a mission, I was finally at peace with it and and you know, started writing.
00:18:12.079 -->
00:18:13.359And then support.
00:18:15.039 -->
00:18:16.240Wise counsel.
00:18:16.960 -->
00:18:25.519You know, talk to somebody that's strong in the Lord, that has faith, that that and wisdom, and and seek that counsel.
00:18:25.920 -->
00:18:27.279And you see that throughout the Bible.
00:18:27.359 -->
00:18:31.680I mean, you know, very few went on it all alone, even when God was leading them.
00:18:31.839 -->
00:18:38.319They had, you know, Moses had Aaron, you know, Jesus had his disciples, you know, it and and so you gotta seek that wise counsel.
00:18:39.119 -->
00:18:42.640That's that threat check to make sure that is this God or is this my own desires?
00:18:42.799 -->
00:18:55.279You know, and and you know, somebody that's wise enough, they'll ask a few questions, they can usually figure out pretty quickly, you know, which one's which, you know, uh it usually doesn't take long, being that outside look at it kind of thing.
00:18:55.440 -->
00:18:57.680So I like that.
00:18:58.319 -->
00:19:02.799A three-step process get you to the three S's.
00:19:03.200 -->
00:19:04.640Yeah, the three C's earlier.
00:19:04.720 -->
00:19:05.759We got the three S's.
00:19:05.920 -->
00:19:06.720I like that.
00:19:07.279 -->
00:19:07.599Yep.
00:19:07.759 -->
00:19:09.279Scripture, spirit of support.
00:19:09.440 -->
00:19:10.640Yeah, very good.
00:19:11.200 -->
00:19:13.920And and so and and to translate that to coaching.
00:19:15.119 -->
00:19:18.319You know, that's where you can get your clients to slow down a little bit.
00:19:18.640 -->
00:19:23.119Because, you know, especially, you know, I'm sure you've seen it where they're like, God told me to do this, I'm gonna do it today.
00:19:23.279 -->
00:19:44.720You know, it's like, okay, let's slow down, you know, do the process, you know, reflective tools like ask, you know, listen, wait, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and and and journaling, you know, if if that's your kind of coaching style to have your your your the people you're coaching journal, you know, make them journal it out.
00:19:44.799 -->
00:19:46.400Like what is God inviting me to do?
00:19:46.559 -->
00:19:48.640What is his purpose?
00:19:48.720 -->
00:19:54.400You know, what what purpose does it serve that that God I feel God is telling me, and make them really think it out too.
00:19:54.640 -->
00:20:03.839Because not only does that confirm that it's coming from God, now you're setting up the foundation for them to think through how to be successful at whatever it is that they feel God is telling them to do.
00:20:04.000 -->
00:20:06.559So you're kind of it's kind of twofold at that point.
00:20:07.200 -->
00:20:17.759Yeah, because if if you go too fast, sometimes yes, we need to move quickly, but many times if you're moving too quickly, you wish you hadn't.
00:20:17.920 -->
00:20:19.279You wish you took that pause.
00:20:19.359 -->
00:20:22.000And you get ahead of God.
00:20:22.319 -->
00:20:23.519Oh, we don't want to do that.
00:20:23.759 -->
00:20:24.079Yeah.
00:20:24.400 -->
00:20:29.920You know, and and the prime example that just came to my mind was Moses, you know, striking the rock for water.
00:20:30.079 -->
00:20:33.200And the second time God was telling him to speak to the rock.
00:20:33.440 -->
00:20:45.279And you know, he got before he got ahead of God, and he's like, No, I'm gonna it's worked last time, I'm doing it this time, and and struck the rock again, and that wasn't the purpose, and that wasn't where God wanted him to be at that moment, you know, kind of thing.
00:20:45.519 -->
00:20:49.119So and he's patient, yeah.
00:20:50.480 -->
00:21:00.799But I'm sure that like I always sometimes I think of it as he's like, Come on, Kelly, you know, how many times you have to go around this mountain before you listen?
00:21:01.279 -->
00:21:02.799Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of twofold.
00:21:02.880 -->
00:21:09.359There's no like sometimes we don't go fast enough because we're we're doubting that you know God is doing what he's doing, you know.
00:21:09.440 -->
00:21:17.680It's like, I'm not sure, you know, and you just you you pause and you hesitate, and then other times you go too fast.
00:21:17.759 -->
00:21:32.880So you gotta you that there again got that reflection, that you know, counsel from somebody, hopefully, you know, the end goal is to put you in that right frame, that that not too fast, not too slow kind of frame to be right where God wants you at that time and all that.
00:21:33.039 -->
00:21:34.400So sweet spot.
00:21:34.559 -->
00:21:36.160Yes, sweet spot.
00:21:36.559 -->
00:21:37.200Yeah.
00:21:37.680 -->
00:21:39.440So I love practicality.
00:21:39.599 -->
00:21:50.079So, what are some practical ways leaders today can create a culture of flourishing and moving their teams from not just following but thriving?
00:21:50.400 -->
00:21:51.039Right.
00:21:51.440 -->
00:21:59.759Um, so I talk about moving from compliance to capacity, you know, not just telling people what to do and they do it.
00:22:00.160 -->
00:22:04.640But create an environment where people grow into what they're called to and called to be.
00:22:04.799 -->
00:22:15.839You know, that that that takes you know mentorship, coaching, direction, training, you know, but all those things, but you have to you, you know, you have to try to use the right tool at the time.
00:22:16.079 -->
00:22:18.960So that's where you you look at the uh person's capacity.
00:22:19.200 -->
00:22:25.279And what I mean by capacity is a little formula is ability and willingness equals capacity.
00:22:25.440 -->
00:22:34.400So you might be able and know that job, but if you're not willing to do it, there's a certain kind of like you know, coaching or metrics that you need to do with them.
00:22:34.720 -->
00:22:39.200If they're they don't have the skills yet, but they are really willing.
00:22:39.440 -->
00:22:42.480Well, that's training, you know, that's there's a different way to approach that.
00:22:42.640 -->
00:22:58.799And so there's there's different levels of of uh capacity or ability and willingness to determine a follower's capacity, and then that there you you form a strategy to how you're gonna approach that employee and how to get them to be their best and and and be their most productive.
00:22:59.119 -->
00:23:03.039You know, some people you're never gonna get through their number willingness.
00:23:03.119 -->
00:23:14.079There's just some, you know, there's some people out there that not to say they're a lost cause, but you know, they might just wrong job, wrong fit, but they gotta make a paycheck and you're never gonna reach them.
00:23:14.240 -->
00:23:21.200But but the majority, that 90%, if you use the right tools, you're gonna reach them and make them better.
00:23:21.359 -->
00:23:25.039And then ideally, then they start doing that for others.
00:23:25.200 -->
00:23:29.440And then that's your next your your new leader that you've you've mentored and brought up and all that.
00:23:29.519 -->
00:23:36.559So yeah, the whole example, leading by example, and yeah, and having somebody actually get it.
00:23:37.119 -->
00:23:37.440Yeah.
00:23:37.680 -->
00:23:38.960Yeah, that aha moment.
00:23:39.039 -->
00:23:42.240That's that's I love seeing that.
00:23:43.359 -->
00:23:51.039When the light bulb when the light bulb finally uh goes off over their head, I'm like it it's it's a great feeling that God used me to get to them to that point.
00:23:51.759 -->
00:24:00.000So you know, and that gets to measuring success too, you know, metrics and uh KPIs, all that stuff.
00:24:00.640 -->
00:24:18.160And that's where I really get into, you know, the a little more faith-based flourishing, looking at the fruits, you know, because there's times when, you know, and you look at companies that became successful, there was times where it was down and it looked like they weren't successful, you know, Coca-Cola, you know, a lot of them, Hershey.
00:24:18.799 -->
00:24:25.839But if you look at the fruits of what's being produced, you know, that that's you go beyond the metrics at that point.
00:24:26.079 -->
00:24:29.039Yes, you know, shareholders or whatever, you gotta have those metrics.
00:24:29.200 -->
00:24:33.839But sometimes, you know, you might have to take a dip to go even further up sometimes.
00:24:34.079 -->
00:24:42.240And uh, so you're looking at that that you know patience and joy of the team as your team, you know, gung-ho.
00:24:42.400 -->
00:24:47.759So sales aren't there, but you know, their morale's up and they're they're there and they're trying their hardest.
00:24:47.920 -->
00:24:49.359That's not the time to crack the whip.
00:24:49.599 -->
00:24:54.880Yeah, your your metrics are down, and that you know, that the the you know, the instinct is like you're not trying hard enough.
00:24:55.119 -->
00:25:13.599But if you see the thing snow and you see that they are trying, and it's just maybe a slow season or you know, slow period of time, you know, you maybe that's not the best way to go about it because then you you've crushed that that morale and you crushed that enthusiasm that they had, you know, and attempt to try to get better metrics.
00:25:13.759 -->
00:25:15.119So you have to really discern that.
00:25:15.200 -->
00:25:22.079You really have to pay attention to to your the environment and and your people and and what they are doing.
00:25:22.400 -->
00:25:25.279Because if they're not trying, yes, you need to be a little more.
00:25:26.480 -->
00:25:48.960And when I, you know, I'm listening to you, and I'm also thinking, I believe it's it's my belief, my personal belief, that organizations should incorporate not just the hard metrics, the like some of these soft metrics of, you know, how are your people showing up?
00:25:49.119 -->
00:25:50.720And is communication better?
00:25:50.880 -->
00:25:53.279Are is the relationship within the team better?
00:25:53.440 -->
00:25:55.359You know, are they being inspired?
00:25:55.519 -->
00:25:58.720Are they flourishing as a team, right?
00:25:58.960 -->
00:26:04.640Or as individuals, these are are super important and they should not be discounted.
00:26:04.799 -->
00:26:08.960Yes, we need the bottom line, we need to be making money and all da-da-da-da-da.
00:26:09.759 -->
00:26:14.720But if your people aren't doing some of those things, right?
00:26:14.880 -->
00:26:24.720If they're if they're not communicating well, if the relationships are not, they're not motivated, they're coming to work with dread and all those things, that's not good.
00:26:25.279 -->
00:26:28.799Regardless of making money or not.
00:26:29.039 -->
00:26:40.319So, how about incorporating some metrics where we can measure some of these other very viable uh metrics, right?
00:26:40.640 -->
00:26:41.599No, absolutely.
00:26:41.839 -->
00:26:51.119In fact, uh the military does that every year they have a survey of the commander of the command that you're involved in, and they're looking at, you know, how's your work environment?
00:26:51.279 -->
00:26:56.319Are you, you know, it are you feeling harassed, you know, or it's uh a toxic work environment?
00:26:56.480 -->
00:26:57.599How's the communication?
00:26:57.680 -->
00:27:02.319Are you, you know, you know, are you do you know what the company's vision and and mission statement is?
00:27:02.480 -->
00:27:11.279You know, and they ask those those soft questions, and and you know, the the CO and the you know the the his boss see the results.
00:27:11.519 -->
00:27:13.839And then it's like, okay, what are you gonna do about it now?
00:27:14.000 -->
00:27:16.160And then they come up with a plan to to do it.
00:27:16.240 -->
00:27:19.119So it's you know, some type cooperation, some people do do that.
00:27:19.200 -->
00:27:25.680And but if you're not, that's something that you really need to look at, is that the like you call those, those soft metrics, you know.
00:27:25.920 -->
00:27:31.519And then, you know, also not being afraid to give your people responsibility.
00:27:31.680 -->
00:27:34.799Let them grow in their roles, let them grow beyond their roles.
00:27:35.039 -->
00:27:46.799So they are the next generation of leadership, you know, because if you let if you just if they're just doers and you just tell them what to do and they do it, when you're gone, who's replacing you?
00:27:47.279 -->
00:27:54.880Where you can, you know, where you if you build and and also too, then they feel ownership, like, oh, this company, this leader is investing in me.
00:27:55.599 -->
00:27:56.960I want to invest in them.
00:27:57.039 -->
00:28:04.480And there's that, you know, that that transactional part of it where they get the biden, they they get the they feel ownership in what they're doing.
00:28:04.559 -->
00:28:08.079You know, it's like, oh, I I was doing so well that they even gave me more responsibility.
00:28:08.240 -->
00:28:16.160Yeah, well, some people be like, oh, I got more work, you know, you know, and successful is uh is punishment because now they're gonna put give me more work.
00:28:16.480 -->
00:28:22.720But still, I mean, you know, it's it's giving them that responsibility, you know, even to the point of let them fail forward.
00:28:22.880 -->
00:28:26.079Don't be afraid of your people failing.
00:28:26.319 -->
00:28:28.720As long as it's what I call smart failure.
00:28:28.880 -->
00:28:31.119I had a boss that it was like a breath of fresh air.
00:28:31.200 -->
00:28:34.319I mean, I'd been in the military probably 20-something years at this point.
00:28:34.480 -->
00:28:35.839It was the first time I heard anybody say that.
00:28:35.920 -->
00:28:38.640He took all the department heads and he's like, I want you to fail.
00:28:38.799 -->
00:28:44.799He's like, if you fail, he's like, I want innovation, I want innovation, I want some of these problems that we have that we've never been able to solve to be solved.
00:28:45.440 -->
00:28:53.920He's like, as long as you can show me your thought process of why you thought it was a good idea, why it but it didn't it didn't work, he's like, I got your back.
00:28:54.079 -->
00:28:56.880He's like, so that not being afraid to fail upward and all that.
00:28:57.039 -->
00:28:59.599And that was that was like revolutionary to me, you know.
00:28:59.680 -->
00:29:00.160And we did.
00:29:00.240 -->
00:29:03.279We know our we got together and we came up with some really creative ideas.
00:29:03.440 -->
00:29:09.200Not all of them worked, but some of them actually did and solved some problems, long-standing problems that the that the organization had and all that.
00:29:09.359 -->
00:29:22.000So just you know, yeah, let your let your people grow a little bit, you know, and and don't necessarily punish them hard for a failure if there was a logical step to what that they thought that was a good idea, you know, kind of thing.
00:29:22.160 -->
00:29:25.440So that's how the post-it note came to be.
00:29:26.079 -->
00:29:28.880Wasn't supposed to be a post-it note, yeah.
00:29:30.640 -->
00:29:34.400It wasn't supposed to be a permanent delivery or something like that, and it failed, and yeah.
00:29:34.720 -->
00:29:38.720Yeah, um, it was a great failure, great failed attempt for sure.
00:29:38.880 -->
00:29:41.519But you know, it goes back to that word flourishing.
00:29:41.680 -->
00:29:43.599This is how people flourish.
00:29:43.839 -->
00:29:45.759Yes, and that's where we want people.
00:29:45.920 -->
00:29:49.599You know, I'm I am one that I do not like the word potential.
00:29:49.759 -->
00:29:57.839It is like nails on a chalkboard for me, because I feel that there's still a limit to that word.
00:29:58.000 -->
00:30:02.559We want people flourishing, we don't want people living up to their potential.
00:30:02.640 -->
00:30:05.039To me, that's like just self-limiting.
00:30:05.200 -->
00:30:17.119We want people flourishing above their potential, yes, way above, you know, in this wholeness that they were created to be, instead of just putting a cap on it.
00:30:17.359 -->
00:30:26.720So I think, you know, your word of flourishing that you mentioned earlier, that is where, at least for me, I want to see my clients flourish.
00:30:27.039 -->
00:30:27.839Absolutely.
00:30:28.000 -->
00:30:35.359And you know, and it's it's kind of funny, it's it's you know, when I was in the in the military, a lot of people were like, I'm not ready for the next rank.
00:30:35.519 -->
00:30:36.400You know, I'm not ready, you know.
00:30:36.480 -->
00:30:44.079It was like, even though you saw the potential and a lot, and that's right, you're never going to be ready for that next step higher until you're in that position.
00:30:44.240 -->
00:30:44.640That's right.
00:30:44.799 -->
00:30:54.160Because because people one, people aren't gonna, if you're not in that position, people are gonna treat you that way, the expectation isn't there, and you don't even have a chance, a voice or chance to do the stuff at that level of position.
00:30:54.400 -->
00:31:13.599So, you know, don't be afraid to go to that next level, even if if it's a there's a learning curve, and even if you fail a little bit at the beginning, because you're never gonna learn unless you you go to that next level, or you go, you you know, go past your potential, you're not going to flourish, you're not gonna be able to grow if you just stay in the same position.
00:31:13.759 -->
00:31:16.079It's like, yeah, that's that's too that's too far attainable.
00:31:16.160 -->
00:31:18.079I can't reach that, that kind of thing.
00:31:18.240 -->
00:31:27.440And that's where a good leader or a good mentor pulls them along and and and you know, sees that in them and see that, hey, they they can go further than where they're at.
00:31:27.519 -->
00:31:30.079And that's where you got to keep, you know, that's where you got to know your people, you know.
00:31:30.160 -->
00:31:32.559You can't be stuck in your office and go into meetings.
00:31:32.640 -->
00:31:37.519You gotta be out there with your people, you know, and and learn them, understand them and what motivates them.
00:31:38.000 -->
00:31:38.960So important.
00:31:39.279 -->
00:31:39.599Yeah.
00:31:40.000 -->
00:31:51.039And it it is about opening your door, you know, doing walk arounds, or if you're, you know, virtual, having, you know, virtual meetings, and just just say, hey, how are you doing?
00:31:51.200 -->
00:31:54.000You know, learning, like you said, learning your people.
00:31:54.720 -->
00:32:04.160And how I don't know, that's one of the things I feel like I've been knocking on the door to so many leaders is do you really know your people?
00:32:04.480 -->
00:32:06.480Like, how well do you know your people?
00:32:06.720 -->
00:32:08.480Do you know what motivates them?
00:32:08.559 -->
00:32:14.799Yeah, do you know what recognition for them looks like and how they would like to be recognized?
00:32:15.519 -->
00:32:19.440Absolutely, because that that's that that that's key too, is the recognition.
00:32:19.680 -->
00:32:26.319Not everybody wants a you know, employee at the quarter thing, you know, it's like you know, so what what motivates them?
00:32:26.400 -->
00:32:30.240What gives them that that warm feeling that makes them want to do more for eating?
00:32:30.480 -->
00:32:39.200You know, it it might not be a piece of paper, it might be a pat on the back or saying good job to them in front of everybody, or it might, you know, whatever the but they're everybody's motivated differently.
00:32:39.359 -->
00:32:42.079And to find that motivation, might be spent through.
00:32:44.720 -->
00:32:54.559I'll do that for a Klondike, but uh Yeah, it it I just lost my train of thought.
00:32:54.640 -->
00:32:57.200But uh, but yeah, they but no oh intrusive leadership.
00:32:57.279 -->
00:33:03.519Some people call it intrusive leadership, you know, and sometimes they take it too far, like you know, bosses like, oh, what are you doing after work?
00:33:03.599 -->
00:33:04.880What are you doing on the weekend?
00:33:04.960 -->
00:33:16.640And and you're like, oh what family, two different things, you know, no, but but still there's a certain level of intrusiveness that you should go and learn your people, you know, and know what's motivating them.
00:33:16.720 -->
00:33:24.160But also too knowing that hey, something something negative is happening in their life, you know, on their personal life.
00:33:24.400 -->
00:33:38.079So, you know one thing I you know I've I've coached people is is is don't be so quick to to jump on your employees when they're not re measuring, you know, when they're not getting getting to the they're not meeting the mark.
00:33:38.319 -->
00:33:39.359Find out why.
00:33:39.519 -->
00:33:41.519You know, why are they sharing that plate every day?
00:33:41.680 -->
00:33:45.680Oh, well, you know, wife got a new job, they have to drop the kid off every day.
00:33:45.920 -->
00:33:51.519And and that's where you you get a chance to flourish because you're like, okay, you have to drop your kid off every day.
00:33:51.680 -->
00:33:55.359What if you come in a little later and stay a little later if that's possible for that?
00:33:55.599 -->
00:34:00.480And then now they're like, wow, my boss is really interested in my well-being.
00:34:00.640 -->
00:34:00.960That's right.
00:34:01.119 -->
00:34:10.079You know, so find out, you know, why they're not missing the mark, you know, as much as telling them that they're missing the mark and all that, and then come up with solutions with them.
00:34:10.239 -->
00:34:11.280Because then they get buy-in.
00:34:11.360 -->
00:34:14.480It's like, okay, how can we, you know, you're not meeting this mark.
00:34:14.960 -->
00:34:16.079What can we do?
00:34:16.400 -->
00:34:23.119Me, your boss, and you to to rectify this, to, to get this to the mark we need it.
00:34:23.599 -->
00:34:29.280Come up with a plan with the employee, and now they got buy-in because it's their plan.
00:34:29.440 -->
00:34:32.639It's their idea of how to how to get to that mark, you know, kind of thing.
00:34:32.719 -->
00:34:33.679So that's good.
00:34:34.239 -->
00:34:34.880Yeah.
00:34:35.199 -->
00:34:42.320So, and that's you know, that's I tell people, are you people just are your people just performing or are they transforming?
00:34:42.719 -->
00:34:43.920You know, are they innovating?
00:34:44.079 -->
00:35:05.599Are they looking for sol you know, are they doing just doing their job the way they're told to do their job, or are they looking for more efficient ways, you know, better ways to do that, you know, and then that you know, and that's where if you're if you're a good leader, they're gonna do, you know, they're gonna look for better ways, they're gonna look for ways to improve things and and also be efficient.
00:35:05.679 -->
00:35:07.199And and there again, that buy-in.
00:35:07.519 -->
00:35:10.800So but again, it might go also back to that permission.
00:35:10.960 -->
00:35:12.800Like, do your people have permission?
00:35:12.960 -->
00:35:15.360Have you told, have you verbally told them?
00:35:15.440 -->
00:35:19.760Because so many times leaders think in their heads, oh, they should know.
00:35:20.159 -->
00:35:21.360Well, maybe they don't.
00:35:21.599 -->
00:35:27.119That's the so how can we give them permission to be all those things that you said?
00:35:27.760 -->
00:35:39.039If we're not painting our people into the picture of the organization and why we even exist and what we do, they're just gonna come in and get a paycheck.
00:35:39.199 -->
00:35:41.760Yeah, they're not gonna do all those other wonderful things.
00:35:42.079 -->
00:35:45.280Yeah, two pactoes to mine is oh, they should know that.
00:35:45.599 -->
00:35:47.840And well, this is the way we've always done it.
00:35:47.920 -->
00:35:58.159That's two when I hear somebody say that, it's like nails on chalkboard to me because it's like you know, that's that that's two, you know, two sentences that should never come out of a leader's mouth.
00:35:59.199 -->
00:36:00.880Oh tune in leaders.
00:36:01.199 -->
00:36:02.079Yeah, yeah.
00:36:02.320 -->
00:36:10.159So, but yeah, uh yeah, that's just those are two two phrases that it's it they're they're uh they're they're leadership killers in a way.
00:36:10.320 -->
00:36:12.559I mean, they're you know, even not that mentality.
00:36:13.039 -->
00:36:20.639No flourishing, transformation, thriving, all those wonderful words that are positive.
00:36:21.119 -->
00:36:24.559We want to encourage all of that for our people.
00:36:25.280 -->
00:36:29.679Yeah, wow, good stuff, Jeremiah.
00:36:31.599 -->
00:36:37.039Take them 30 minutes to to figure that out, but I'm with you, but that's okay.
00:36:37.280 -->
00:36:41.840We we get to impart the knowledge and experience, right?
00:36:42.000 -->
00:36:44.400Which is yeah, is pretty fantastic.
00:36:45.280 -->
00:36:46.320Yeah, yeah.
00:36:47.360 -->
00:36:48.960So what's the last word here?
00:36:49.119 -->
00:36:53.599What would you like to leave our listeners with?
00:36:55.599 -->
00:37:01.679I think the biggest thing is what we said at the beginning, giving yourself grace.
00:37:02.159 -->
00:37:18.639You know, leaders, you need to give yourself grace, you need to be humble, you know, get that feedback from your people, get that feedback from your peers, you know, and and take that time to self-reflect and look inward in ways that you can uh better yourself.
00:37:19.039 -->
00:37:25.599You know, and and some of that is through prayer, getting in the Bible, using those biblical principles in everyday life.
00:37:26.079 -->
00:37:35.440You know, you don't have to be religious to your people, but you can still model and uh exemplify those biblical principles, and people are gonna take notice.
00:37:35.519 -->
00:37:39.119They're gonna realize there's something different about you than other managers.
00:37:39.440 -->
00:37:43.440So just you know, be humble.
00:37:43.599 -->
00:37:52.559I guess that's that's the the final word is be humble with yourself and and know that you don't know everything and that you you know be willing to learn.
00:37:53.280 -->
00:37:56.159So where can people find your book?
00:37:56.719 -->
00:37:58.239So learn what grows.
00:37:59.920 -->
00:38:05.039So it's it's uh available at all the uh electronic bookstores, uh, Amazon, Barnes and Noble's.
00:38:05.119 -->
00:38:08.320And you can get it directly through Archway Publishing from there.
00:38:08.480 -->
00:38:18.000But yeah, anywhere where there's an ebook ebook version and uh you could or you can order a hot hard copy for those of us that are like the tactile feel of pages in our our hands and all that.
00:38:18.079 -->
00:38:18.719So that's right.
00:38:19.039 -->
00:38:20.239That's the main things.
00:38:20.639 -->
00:38:27.760And then I I you know social media, um Leaning with Grace uh on Facebook is there.
00:38:28.000 -->
00:38:32.480And then uh um LinkedIn, uh Jeremiah Burke.
00:38:32.719 -->
00:38:35.760You know, if you searched out, you can find me there um from there.
00:38:36.159 -->
00:38:44.320Um and then I guess I mean there's a website that just uh it's kind of just a where you can click on it to get get to wherever you can buy the book.
00:38:44.400 -->
00:38:46.880Uh GraceGieldleadership.com.
00:38:48.960 -->
00:38:50.559Yeah, greatleadership.com.
00:38:53.280 -->
00:38:53.599Okay.
00:38:54.239 -->
00:38:54.800All right.
00:38:54.880 -->
00:38:58.320Well, you've heard it here, folks, with Jeremiah Burke.
00:38:58.559 -->
00:38:59.360Thank you so much.
00:38:59.519 -->
00:39:03.280And until next time, you keep doing great things, and we'll see you soon.
00:39:03.599 -->
00:39:04.159Bye.
