Mikulas: Welcome back to another episode. today I'm sitting down with Scott Roy, the CEO and co-founder at Witten and Roy Partnership. Scott, thank you for coming on today and what a coincidence in terms of the name.
Scott Roy: Yeah. yeah, it is a it is a coincidence, yes.
Mikulas: So tell me how this all got started. you've been at it for more than eighteen years, I believe. So
Scott Roy: Right. Yep.
Mikulas: how did all c kind of this come together?
Scott Roy: Sure. Well, Whitney Enroy Partnership is a consulting firm that where we help organizations to solve usually selling problems. selling but also related things are sales management and also customer service. And so how I got into all that is that for twenty some odd years, thirty years I guess, I was involved in doing all kinds of work in sales, sales management and customer service. and built a couple of companies and then and then decided to go into consulting when I was about fifty.
Mikulas: Mm. And in the
Scott Roy: So it's all just just just a the you know, it's just a career of making a lot of mistakes and then and then doing some things really well and and then having that sensitivity to know how to diagnose a problem that other people are having and then help them solve it.
Mikulas: Mm, right. And what mistake do you think that these companies make when it comes to sales?
Scott Roy: well, there are many. I think one of the one of the key mistakes is that they oftentimes will put their top salesperson or one of the best salespeople into a sales management role. And the the skills of a sales manager are very different than the skills of a salesperson. And so oftentimes that person who was the great salesperson is now in a position that they can't succeed at and it doesn't help the company succeed. so that's
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: one key key problem. I think another problem is that the companies hire experienced salespeople as opposed to new sales people who then can be trained in that particular company's culture or way of selling, you see. And so w one of the worst things you can do is have a a team that's made up of a bunch of different selling methods because the sales manager can't really help them succeed. And I think probably the third area is that sales is is greatly misunderstood as far as what really good salesmanship looks like. And what what they oftentimes make a mistake of doing is pitching a value proposition. And the salespeople make that mistake. They're actually trying to convince customers to buy, as opposed to really finding out what the problems are that customers have and then matching up the product or service that they're trying to sell to those problems. And that's you know, that's the most powerful way of selling.
Mikulas: Mm. Why do you think
Scott Roy: So those are the top three. Those are the top three that I can think of off the top of my head.
Mikulas: Right, right. Why do you think that companies place the best salespeople to the manager role?
Scott Roy: What you're asking why why is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Yeah.
Mikulas: Yes, yes, because you mentioned it so I'm I'm curious because I've never heard this.
Scott Roy: Yeah. Well the reason why they do it is I it's sort of logical when you think about it. You know, is it someone says, you know, look at John, he's a great salesperson. Well, by osmosis, he's gonna be able to teach everyone else on the team how to be great salespeople. But the problem is, is that is that John you know, he doesn't have the qualities necessarily to actually cultivate great salesmanship and other people. So one example would be a great salesperson typically, typically, not always, but typically has very good, strong work habits. And the people who don't succeed at selling oftentimes have very poor work habits. They don't persist, you know, they don't pick up the phone. They don't make their sales calls, you say. And so the sales the sales manager if they're a top salesperson, just, you know, they get frustrated, and you know, with people who just won't apply themselves, you say. So, I mean that's just one example. But I mean there are many many reasons why a a top salesperson, you know, won't you know, won't be able to succeed as a sales manager. I mean it does happen, it does happen, but I mean I I was a top salesperson and I succeeded as a sales manager, but I think I was probably probably more the exception than the rule.
Mikulas: Hmm. What do you think is kind of the main differencia differentiator between, you know, like a great sales rep and a bad one? if we take out from the equation the you know consistency part?
Scott Roy: Yeah. Yeah. Well we we use a a formula in analyzing sales problems. It's called the race formula and it stands for results equal or results come from attitude plus competence plus execution. Okay. So attitude we think is one of the core capabilities or one of one of the core components to high performance in anything for that matter, you know, in whether it's sports or But sales, I mean in in especially sales, because sales is is a is an at risk profession, right? I mean, because when I go and make a sales call, there's no guarantee that I'm gonna actually sell something. You know. So you know, if I'm an accountant, you know, I've been trained as an accountant and I know what the formulas are and it's a matter of using the right formulas I've been trained, and I always get the right answer, you say. So but in sales, you can do things perfectly and not get the right answer. You know, not get you know, a person to say yes. So attitude and being willing to stick with things and not get discouraged is really, really important. And then secondly, the the C for for the race formula stands for competence. So competence would be the skills that are surrounding the sales profession. You know, how you greet somebody, how you ask questions, you know, how you play back people's answers, how you engage with them, how you present the product that you're presenting, et cetera. So those skills are really, really important. And oftentimes nowadays are not taught very well. this is something that people are assumed they assume that someone can pick that up on their own rather than actually be trained the proper ways of going about engaging a client. And then the last thing is execution, which is the is is is what I say is doing the right things at the right time with the right people, you say. And if I if I have one of those that's the wrong, you know, it's like doing the right things at the wrong time with the right people, then I'm not gonna get a very good result, right? If I'm doing things with the wrong people at the right time at the you know, et cetera, you know, I'm not gonna get the best result. So attitude plus competence plus execution. Now out of those three, I think attitude is probably the most important. In fact, I know it's the most important. And I know that from my own experience as a salesperson. When my attitude is is great, you know, then you know, it's it's infectious and my attitude is poorer, then you know, why in the world would anybody want to spend a penny with me, right? So
Mikulas: I f I how do you look at conviction when it comes to sales? Because I think it's a important part that the
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: sales rep actually believes that what he is selling is a good product that will help the end customer. Because
Scott Roy: Yes.
Mikulas: a lot I think a lot of times, or maybe you know, in the past sales had a very bad kind of name and it it's
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: even nowadays I think it's perceived as a negative thing. when in re
Scott Roy: Yeah, yeah it is. You're right.
Mikulas: when in reality you're tr really trying to help the person. It
Scott Roy: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean it it it it's certainly in my lifetime, and I'm almost seventy, in my lifetime it's always been seen as a you know, as a profession that you you take when nothing else works out. You know? It's
Mikulas: Yeah.
Scott Roy: like it's like if I can't get a job doing something else, you know, then then I I have to resort to sales. And there's something, you know, that people think that most salespeople are silver tongued devils, you know, that basically know how to sell ice to Eskimos. You've heard that before, I'm sure. You know, or
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: you know, or were sly and sneaky, right? But but the truth is is that if you if you really are honorable in the way that you go about selling, and and you are convicted on the product or service that you are offering, and you're also not trying to convince another person. So being convicted is important. But being convincing is probably the last thing you want to do as a salesperson. Now that sounds very counterintuitive. And I'm sure there are some sales, many salespeople who, if they, if they listen to this podcast, would disagree with me on that. But I couldn't disagree more with the fact that me trying to convince you is the way most salespeople try to sell. We believe that that's probably not the best way to do it. The best way for me to help you. make it i i is to help you make a very good decision. That's a very that's the job as a salesperson, is what are the challenges or problems you're trying to solve in your business or in your home. and you know well, now that we understand what those problems are, I have a product or service that can help you with that. And let me show you how it works. Okay? And so then I can work on building your what what we call decision intelligence. And decision intelligence starts with you understanding the problem you're trying to solve at a deeper level than you probably were understanding it before we had the conversation, you say. And so once you understand it and then you understand how much it's costing you to have that problem, the cost of the problem, not the solution. But once that you see that the the cost of doing nothing, of just suffering with the problem you have, if that number and hopefully it is a number, you know, financial number, if that number is large enough, then you're gonna be very motivated to do something about it, right? You know, it's like
Mikulas: Mm. Right.
Scott Roy: it it's like it's like I a good good example is I I got a water bill one time here at my house for utilities in my home. And and normally the water is about thirty dollars or forty dollars a month. Well one month it was eight over eight hundred dollars. Okay. And I you know, of course my eyes b you know.
Mikulas: Yeah.
Scott Roy: popped out of my head, right? And and so I looked at this and I went, my God, you know, and so you can imagine if you were in that situation, you probably wouldn't take a few days to go ahead and get that corrected. You'd probably do it right away, you see. And so that's what creates urgency in the selling process.
Mikulas: Scott, tell me before this recording I was looking at your site and you
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: had a statement that said if you can sell, you can save the world. How did that come together and what does it mean?
Scott Roy: Well, a lot of the work that we do, Mick, is is in the global south or some people call it the the developing world. In the past we used to call it third world, right? But this is Africa and Asia, Central America, South America. we do most of our consulting in those regions and work with organizations that are purpose driven, organizations that have a product or a service that really benefits the poor. Okay. And so an example of that would be like a solar lighting, an inexpensive, you know, hundred dollar solar lighting kit that lights the entire house, you say, as opposed to burning kerosene or candles or using batteries, you say. And so what we do is we work with those organizations that are selling those items and we help them improve so that they can deliver the impact they're trying to do. And so that's what we mean by you know, s you know, selling to save the world. If you can't sell, then people won't buy the products that will actually make the world a better place and their life a better, you know, make their life better. So actually that's not our statement. That was a statement by a man named Kevin Starr, who is the head of the Malago Foundation. and that that quote is on the cover of our book, Sell Well Do Good. So
Mikulas: Well, now that you opened it, tell me about your book. what's kind of the key message that you would like
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: people to that are listening right now to take from it if they haven't read it?
Scott Roy: Sure. Well, this goes back to what we were talking about before, Mick, is that what people most people think selling is is is fooling people or tricking people. And as you know, you've said and what I've said is that look, you know, I think it's an honorable profession and it's important to help people solve problems. And so in the book Sell Well, do good, which you know a lot of times people look at that and they go, Well, wait a minute, how can you sell and do good? You know, and actually actually
Mikulas: Ha ha ha.
Scott Roy: you you sell to you know, you you can sell in such a way that y you're you're presenting your product or or service as a solution to a problem that people have. And that's the core of the book. It's a it's a way, it's reorienting the the way a person thinks about sales. So this is either a person who's just getting into sales or is already in sales and is, you know, looking for a way to do it where they feel you know confident and Proud of what they do, you say. And and so that book, the or what we call the orange book, is is designed for primarily business to consumer selling, and primarily it's geared in the developing world or the global south. And then our other book, which is called Decision Intelligence Selling, is the blue book, and that's geared more for B2B selling in in the West, you know, in more what what people would call developed countries of the global north. And so, you know, you can be selling very inexpensive, you know, solar light kits to a a client, or you could be selling, you know, a seeds or fertilizer or whatever it might be, one on one with clients, or you can be selling entire, you know, cloud solutions, you know, or computer solutions or, you know, whatever to big corporations. And this this approach, what we call decision intelligence DQ. is y is applicable in both environments.
Mikulas: Hmm. Do you think that there is a difference between selling like a lower ticket item for B2C? And then on the other hand, as you mentioned, you know, cloud, big I don't know, data racks, for example.
Scott Roy: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's I mean, usually there are a lot more zeros, right, behind the beh the scientists say
Mikulas: Hmm. Yeah.
Scott Roy: well it depends on what the currency is. I mean, if you go to Uganda, I think one Ugandan shilling is equal to three thousand eight hundred or one one three thousand eight hundredths of a dollar. So whatever that works out to be. So one dollar equals three thousand eight hundred shillings. But but s seriously the the the biggest difference is when a business is buying something that's you know, a million dollars or a hundred thousand dollars or even ten thousand dollars, that's a pretty big decision, right? And and so it's gonna involve more than just one person. as opposed to somebody who's selling solar lights, you know, your whole conversation is gonna be maybe twenty minutes or thirty minutes and the decision is gonna be made there on on the spot. whereas a much more complex sale, which is what the blue book speaks to, you know, can take you know, eighteen months. It can take, you know, forty-five different conversations with different people within an organization to get to the point where you've actually made the sale. you know, you can have a sales cycle that lasts up to th you know, I mean, I've heard of sales cycles lasting three years, you know, for for one product to be sold. A very very big expensive you know, six hundred million dollar product, but I mean you know, those those
Mikulas: Yeah.
Scott Roy: take a long time.
Mikulas: Hmm. So Scott, you've been been at it for multiple you know, multiple decades right now. What would you say to your you know 20-year-old Scott if you had to, you know, get a coffee with him today? what would be your advice?
Scott Roy: I'd say stick with it. I mean I was twenty, that's when I started selling. And and I was selling door to door here in the United States. I was selling books, educational books. And I was in college and I I've gotta say, at the time that was the hardest thing I ever did, you know, up to up to the age of twenty. And I would say afterwards, it's probably one of the most difficult things I've done my entire life, right? and it it it's not that the job itself was hard. It was just so hard to manage my emotions and my attitude during that job, you say. And that's the real challenge in sales is how do you manage your attitude? How do you manage it when you don't get a sale? You know, when you you've given ten or fifteen or twenty presentations and nobody's bought from you. And, you know, you're you're on straight commission. You know, you're not getting paid unless you you know, unless you make a sale. you know, that's a very, very challenging experience to to go and do that. But I did that for five summers. but at that first summer when I was twenty, I wanted to quit a lot, you know, but I didn't. I stayed at it and and I did it for five summers while I was going to college and made good money and paid for my college, right? So and then of course got the prof you know, built the profession of salesmanship and then and now sales consulting. And so it's it's been a it's been a wise choice. So but but
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: if I were speaking to my twenty year old, I would I would say, look, you know, get off your back and just you know, stick to it, you'll be fine.
Mikulas: Right. How do you look at AI when it comes to your profession as a consultant?
Scott Roy: Yeah, I mean t the usefulness of it in in the in the profession of consulting itself is is really helpful. I mean it really saves time with analysis and of statistics and numbers which are always a part of the work that we do. We don't rely in you know, obviously entirely on it, but we we y we can use AI to speed up the process of understanding and maybe even gain a few insights that we wouldn't have seen otherwise. Because of the volume of data and just cutting through the data and getting to the point where you're able to see what's going on. Yeah. as far as as far as the usefulness as a selling organization, because we sell as well, right? I have quite a few people who reach out to me each week trying to convince me to go through lead generation through AI. And I just resist it. I don't I don't want to do that.
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: You know, what I want to do is is get referred by our clients, you know, and that's generally how we build our b have built our business over the last eighteen years is that we're we're known for excellent work and and you know that reputation speaks volumes, quite frankly, and that's what makes the phone ring, right? But but I think You know, I I think it also depends on the product that you sell. you know, b selling consulting services, you have to have a lot of confidence in the person that you're hiring, obviously. You know, because you know, if you're you're if you're talking to a consultant, the consultant is gonna say that they can solve your problems. But how do you know that they can really solve your problems? Right? How d how how do you know that for sure, right? And the reason you're probably calling a consultant is well not always, but but at least when people call us is because they have thrown in the towel on trying to figure out a way to improve their sales, right? So so it's
Mikulas: Okay.
Scott Roy: like the you know, a lot of times people are pretty desperate when when that when that phone rings, right? The house is on fire, so to speak. I wish they'd call a little earlier because you know, having that sort of sense of sense of urgency is is not helpful in an organization. I mean, that, you know, emergency, not a sense of urgency, but that sense of emergency is you know, is not helpful in thinking clearly and making good decisions. you know, you oftentimes when you feel that pressure and it's so intense, you're gonna do things that are really s you look back and that And think, God, that was stupid. You know, that was really stupid that we did that. People don't make good decisions usually when they're under pressure. So we would pr we would much prefer working with somebody who says, Look, I know I'm not an expert in sales, and you're s you know, you you are and or at least you say you are. You know, we're gonna hire you and you help us develop our strategy so that we get it right from day one, right? We sometimes we get a chance to do that. in fact I was on the phone yesterday with with a client who did that with us twice. And and he, you know, he's now moved on from that position after being there ten years. And now he wants to be a consultant with us. So but but but he you know he was proactive and he understood the importance of of of of getting it right from day one.
Mikulas: If you look at like into the future, what's your vision with the firm and with everything going on that you have? do you have a third book go coming out?
Scott Roy: No, we we've decided we were gonna write one on management, but we decided not to do that. we're using other ways to get, you know, to get messages out. Like I I recorded a series, it ac actually was a book that we had written as it was our first book, but we never published it. and it was called Stop Doing Stupid. and what we were looking at were thirty topics, ten in attitude, ten in competence, and ten in execution. that sales managers and salespeople make mistakes, right? And so we we looked at ten common mistakes in each of those categories. And we just basically said, stop doing this and start doing this, you say. And and so what we did is we actually broke that book up into thirty short videos, accompanied by the text. So that I I did a two minute intro and then and then they would get you know, people would get the text of, you know, stop doing stupid and on a particular topic. So no no no books in our future. I
Mikulas: Hm. Yeah, I've
Scott Roy: don't think. I I don't think. But my my business partner has retired. I'm still in the business and I'm I intend to continue in the business. you know, long after most people retire. I'm s I'm sixty nine right now. I just got back from Guatemala working with an organization there and just and and just you know just recently got back from India working with a very large and very potentially very game changing consultation with the India Postal Service that that could supply glasses to every Indian citizen in the world in in across India, you know, over a a billion people. So we'll we'll
Mikulas: Hmm.
Scott Roy: see. We'll see where that goes.
Mikulas: I think like on a similar note that you said earlier about not doing stupid stuff, AI is great at actually making more shiny objects. I feel like a lot of people like nowadays. are using AI for the wrong stuff and
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: you can do with AI everything so quickly that you know it becomes like really challenging even for me
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: sometimes that when I for example look at LinkedIn and I see all of these posts saying you know that there is a new AI thing going on and it's the best and you should you should try it and you know, to resist the urge and really look at it like from face value that like the fundamentals won't change. Like for example, if you if we take sales that there is has to be some kind of trust established, a relationship of some sort, and there needs to be the need and the problem to fix. and no AI really can fix that. Right. Scott, if people would like to partner up or reach out to you, what's kind of the best place for them to do so?
Scott Roy: Yeah, they can write to me directly if they'd like, Scott at Wrpartnership dot com. it's W R Whitney and Roy, but WRPartnership dot com. Or you can visit the website and and then on there is a a link to click to send a an email. And our
Mikulas: Sweet.
Scott Roy: books are available on on Amazon as well as as well as Barnes and Nobles and Apple Books and all that too. So in hardback or Yeah, in the softback.
Mikulas: Great. So I will leave contact information down below.
Scott Roy: Thank you.
Mikulas: And Scott, thank you for coming on and sharing your thoughts.
Scott Roy: Thank you, Mick. Appreciate it.
Scott Roy: Yeah. yeah, it is a it is a coincidence, yes.
Mikulas: So tell me how this all got started. you've been at it for more than eighteen years, I believe. So
Scott Roy: Right. Yep.
Mikulas: how did all c kind of this come together?
Scott Roy: Sure. Well, Whitney Enroy Partnership is a consulting firm that where we help organizations to solve usually selling problems. selling but also related things are sales management and also customer service. And so how I got into all that is that for twenty some odd years, thirty years I guess, I was involved in doing all kinds of work in sales, sales management and customer service. and built a couple of companies and then and then decided to go into consulting when I was about fifty.
Mikulas: Mm. And in the
Scott Roy: So it's all just just just a the you know, it's just a career of making a lot of mistakes and then and then doing some things really well and and then having that sensitivity to know how to diagnose a problem that other people are having and then help them solve it.
Mikulas: Mm, right. And what mistake do you think that these companies make when it comes to sales?
Scott Roy: well, there are many. I think one of the one of the key mistakes is that they oftentimes will put their top salesperson or one of the best salespeople into a sales management role. And the the skills of a sales manager are very different than the skills of a salesperson. And so oftentimes that person who was the great salesperson is now in a position that they can't succeed at and it doesn't help the company succeed. so that's
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: one key key problem. I think another problem is that the companies hire experienced salespeople as opposed to new sales people who then can be trained in that particular company's culture or way of selling, you see. And so w one of the worst things you can do is have a a team that's made up of a bunch of different selling methods because the sales manager can't really help them succeed. And I think probably the third area is that sales is is greatly misunderstood as far as what really good salesmanship looks like. And what what they oftentimes make a mistake of doing is pitching a value proposition. And the salespeople make that mistake. They're actually trying to convince customers to buy, as opposed to really finding out what the problems are that customers have and then matching up the product or service that they're trying to sell to those problems. And that's you know, that's the most powerful way of selling.
Mikulas: Mm. Why do you think
Scott Roy: So those are the top three. Those are the top three that I can think of off the top of my head.
Mikulas: Right, right. Why do you think that companies place the best salespeople to the manager role?
Scott Roy: What you're asking why why is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Yeah.
Mikulas: Yes, yes, because you mentioned it so I'm I'm curious because I've never heard this.
Scott Roy: Yeah. Well the reason why they do it is I it's sort of logical when you think about it. You know, is it someone says, you know, look at John, he's a great salesperson. Well, by osmosis, he's gonna be able to teach everyone else on the team how to be great salespeople. But the problem is, is that is that John you know, he doesn't have the qualities necessarily to actually cultivate great salesmanship and other people. So one example would be a great salesperson typically, typically, not always, but typically has very good, strong work habits. And the people who don't succeed at selling oftentimes have very poor work habits. They don't persist, you know, they don't pick up the phone. They don't make their sales calls, you say. And so the sales the sales manager if they're a top salesperson, just, you know, they get frustrated, and you know, with people who just won't apply themselves, you say. So, I mean that's just one example. But I mean there are many many reasons why a a top salesperson, you know, won't you know, won't be able to succeed as a sales manager. I mean it does happen, it does happen, but I mean I I was a top salesperson and I succeeded as a sales manager, but I think I was probably probably more the exception than the rule.
Mikulas: Hmm. What do you think is kind of the main differencia differentiator between, you know, like a great sales rep and a bad one? if we take out from the equation the you know consistency part?
Scott Roy: Yeah. Yeah. Well we we use a a formula in analyzing sales problems. It's called the race formula and it stands for results equal or results come from attitude plus competence plus execution. Okay. So attitude we think is one of the core capabilities or one of one of the core components to high performance in anything for that matter, you know, in whether it's sports or But sales, I mean in in especially sales, because sales is is a is an at risk profession, right? I mean, because when I go and make a sales call, there's no guarantee that I'm gonna actually sell something. You know. So you know, if I'm an accountant, you know, I've been trained as an accountant and I know what the formulas are and it's a matter of using the right formulas I've been trained, and I always get the right answer, you say. So but in sales, you can do things perfectly and not get the right answer. You know, not get you know, a person to say yes. So attitude and being willing to stick with things and not get discouraged is really, really important. And then secondly, the the C for for the race formula stands for competence. So competence would be the skills that are surrounding the sales profession. You know, how you greet somebody, how you ask questions, you know, how you play back people's answers, how you engage with them, how you present the product that you're presenting, et cetera. So those skills are really, really important. And oftentimes nowadays are not taught very well. this is something that people are assumed they assume that someone can pick that up on their own rather than actually be trained the proper ways of going about engaging a client. And then the last thing is execution, which is the is is is what I say is doing the right things at the right time with the right people, you say. And if I if I have one of those that's the wrong, you know, it's like doing the right things at the wrong time with the right people, then I'm not gonna get a very good result, right? If I'm doing things with the wrong people at the right time at the you know, et cetera, you know, I'm not gonna get the best result. So attitude plus competence plus execution. Now out of those three, I think attitude is probably the most important. In fact, I know it's the most important. And I know that from my own experience as a salesperson. When my attitude is is great, you know, then you know, it's it's infectious and my attitude is poorer, then you know, why in the world would anybody want to spend a penny with me, right? So
Mikulas: I f I how do you look at conviction when it comes to sales? Because I think it's a important part that the
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: sales rep actually believes that what he is selling is a good product that will help the end customer. Because
Scott Roy: Yes.
Mikulas: a lot I think a lot of times, or maybe you know, in the past sales had a very bad kind of name and it it's
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: even nowadays I think it's perceived as a negative thing. when in re
Scott Roy: Yeah, yeah it is. You're right.
Mikulas: when in reality you're tr really trying to help the person. It
Scott Roy: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean it it it it's certainly in my lifetime, and I'm almost seventy, in my lifetime it's always been seen as a you know, as a profession that you you take when nothing else works out. You know? It's
Mikulas: Yeah.
Scott Roy: like it's like if I can't get a job doing something else, you know, then then I I have to resort to sales. And there's something, you know, that people think that most salespeople are silver tongued devils, you know, that basically know how to sell ice to Eskimos. You've heard that before, I'm sure. You know, or
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: you know, or were sly and sneaky, right? But but the truth is is that if you if you really are honorable in the way that you go about selling, and and you are convicted on the product or service that you are offering, and you're also not trying to convince another person. So being convicted is important. But being convincing is probably the last thing you want to do as a salesperson. Now that sounds very counterintuitive. And I'm sure there are some sales, many salespeople who, if they, if they listen to this podcast, would disagree with me on that. But I couldn't disagree more with the fact that me trying to convince you is the way most salespeople try to sell. We believe that that's probably not the best way to do it. The best way for me to help you. make it i i is to help you make a very good decision. That's a very that's the job as a salesperson, is what are the challenges or problems you're trying to solve in your business or in your home. and you know well, now that we understand what those problems are, I have a product or service that can help you with that. And let me show you how it works. Okay? And so then I can work on building your what what we call decision intelligence. And decision intelligence starts with you understanding the problem you're trying to solve at a deeper level than you probably were understanding it before we had the conversation, you say. And so once you understand it and then you understand how much it's costing you to have that problem, the cost of the problem, not the solution. But once that you see that the the cost of doing nothing, of just suffering with the problem you have, if that number and hopefully it is a number, you know, financial number, if that number is large enough, then you're gonna be very motivated to do something about it, right? You know, it's like
Mikulas: Mm. Right.
Scott Roy: it it's like it's like I a good good example is I I got a water bill one time here at my house for utilities in my home. And and normally the water is about thirty dollars or forty dollars a month. Well one month it was eight over eight hundred dollars. Okay. And I you know, of course my eyes b you know.
Mikulas: Yeah.
Scott Roy: popped out of my head, right? And and so I looked at this and I went, my God, you know, and so you can imagine if you were in that situation, you probably wouldn't take a few days to go ahead and get that corrected. You'd probably do it right away, you see. And so that's what creates urgency in the selling process.
Mikulas: Scott, tell me before this recording I was looking at your site and you
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: had a statement that said if you can sell, you can save the world. How did that come together and what does it mean?
Scott Roy: Well, a lot of the work that we do, Mick, is is in the global south or some people call it the the developing world. In the past we used to call it third world, right? But this is Africa and Asia, Central America, South America. we do most of our consulting in those regions and work with organizations that are purpose driven, organizations that have a product or a service that really benefits the poor. Okay. And so an example of that would be like a solar lighting, an inexpensive, you know, hundred dollar solar lighting kit that lights the entire house, you say, as opposed to burning kerosene or candles or using batteries, you say. And so what we do is we work with those organizations that are selling those items and we help them improve so that they can deliver the impact they're trying to do. And so that's what we mean by you know, s you know, selling to save the world. If you can't sell, then people won't buy the products that will actually make the world a better place and their life a better, you know, make their life better. So actually that's not our statement. That was a statement by a man named Kevin Starr, who is the head of the Malago Foundation. and that that quote is on the cover of our book, Sell Well Do Good. So
Mikulas: Well, now that you opened it, tell me about your book. what's kind of the key message that you would like
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: people to that are listening right now to take from it if they haven't read it?
Scott Roy: Sure. Well, this goes back to what we were talking about before, Mick, is that what people most people think selling is is is fooling people or tricking people. And as you know, you've said and what I've said is that look, you know, I think it's an honorable profession and it's important to help people solve problems. And so in the book Sell Well, do good, which you know a lot of times people look at that and they go, Well, wait a minute, how can you sell and do good? You know, and actually actually
Mikulas: Ha ha ha.
Scott Roy: you you sell to you know, you you can sell in such a way that y you're you're presenting your product or or service as a solution to a problem that people have. And that's the core of the book. It's a it's a way, it's reorienting the the way a person thinks about sales. So this is either a person who's just getting into sales or is already in sales and is, you know, looking for a way to do it where they feel you know confident and Proud of what they do, you say. And and so that book, the or what we call the orange book, is is designed for primarily business to consumer selling, and primarily it's geared in the developing world or the global south. And then our other book, which is called Decision Intelligence Selling, is the blue book, and that's geared more for B2B selling in in the West, you know, in more what what people would call developed countries of the global north. And so, you know, you can be selling very inexpensive, you know, solar light kits to a a client, or you could be selling, you know, a seeds or fertilizer or whatever it might be, one on one with clients, or you can be selling entire, you know, cloud solutions, you know, or computer solutions or, you know, whatever to big corporations. And this this approach, what we call decision intelligence DQ. is y is applicable in both environments.
Mikulas: Hmm. Do you think that there is a difference between selling like a lower ticket item for B2C? And then on the other hand, as you mentioned, you know, cloud, big I don't know, data racks, for example.
Scott Roy: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's I mean, usually there are a lot more zeros, right, behind the beh the scientists say
Mikulas: Hmm. Yeah.
Scott Roy: well it depends on what the currency is. I mean, if you go to Uganda, I think one Ugandan shilling is equal to three thousand eight hundred or one one three thousand eight hundredths of a dollar. So whatever that works out to be. So one dollar equals three thousand eight hundred shillings. But but s seriously the the the biggest difference is when a business is buying something that's you know, a million dollars or a hundred thousand dollars or even ten thousand dollars, that's a pretty big decision, right? And and so it's gonna involve more than just one person. as opposed to somebody who's selling solar lights, you know, your whole conversation is gonna be maybe twenty minutes or thirty minutes and the decision is gonna be made there on on the spot. whereas a much more complex sale, which is what the blue book speaks to, you know, can take you know, eighteen months. It can take, you know, forty-five different conversations with different people within an organization to get to the point where you've actually made the sale. you know, you can have a sales cycle that lasts up to th you know, I mean, I've heard of sales cycles lasting three years, you know, for for one product to be sold. A very very big expensive you know, six hundred million dollar product, but I mean you know, those those
Mikulas: Yeah.
Scott Roy: take a long time.
Mikulas: Hmm. So Scott, you've been been at it for multiple you know, multiple decades right now. What would you say to your you know 20-year-old Scott if you had to, you know, get a coffee with him today? what would be your advice?
Scott Roy: I'd say stick with it. I mean I was twenty, that's when I started selling. And and I was selling door to door here in the United States. I was selling books, educational books. And I was in college and I I've gotta say, at the time that was the hardest thing I ever did, you know, up to up to the age of twenty. And I would say afterwards, it's probably one of the most difficult things I've done my entire life, right? and it it it's not that the job itself was hard. It was just so hard to manage my emotions and my attitude during that job, you say. And that's the real challenge in sales is how do you manage your attitude? How do you manage it when you don't get a sale? You know, when you you've given ten or fifteen or twenty presentations and nobody's bought from you. And, you know, you're you're on straight commission. You know, you're not getting paid unless you you know, unless you make a sale. you know, that's a very, very challenging experience to to go and do that. But I did that for five summers. but at that first summer when I was twenty, I wanted to quit a lot, you know, but I didn't. I stayed at it and and I did it for five summers while I was going to college and made good money and paid for my college, right? So and then of course got the prof you know, built the profession of salesmanship and then and now sales consulting. And so it's it's been a it's been a wise choice. So but but
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: if I were speaking to my twenty year old, I would I would say, look, you know, get off your back and just you know, stick to it, you'll be fine.
Mikulas: Right. How do you look at AI when it comes to your profession as a consultant?
Scott Roy: Yeah, I mean t the usefulness of it in in the in the profession of consulting itself is is really helpful. I mean it really saves time with analysis and of statistics and numbers which are always a part of the work that we do. We don't rely in you know, obviously entirely on it, but we we y we can use AI to speed up the process of understanding and maybe even gain a few insights that we wouldn't have seen otherwise. Because of the volume of data and just cutting through the data and getting to the point where you're able to see what's going on. Yeah. as far as as far as the usefulness as a selling organization, because we sell as well, right? I have quite a few people who reach out to me each week trying to convince me to go through lead generation through AI. And I just resist it. I don't I don't want to do that.
Mikulas: Mm.
Scott Roy: You know, what I want to do is is get referred by our clients, you know, and that's generally how we build our b have built our business over the last eighteen years is that we're we're known for excellent work and and you know that reputation speaks volumes, quite frankly, and that's what makes the phone ring, right? But but I think You know, I I think it also depends on the product that you sell. you know, b selling consulting services, you have to have a lot of confidence in the person that you're hiring, obviously. You know, because you know, if you're you're if you're talking to a consultant, the consultant is gonna say that they can solve your problems. But how do you know that they can really solve your problems? Right? How d how how do you know that for sure, right? And the reason you're probably calling a consultant is well not always, but but at least when people call us is because they have thrown in the towel on trying to figure out a way to improve their sales, right? So so it's
Mikulas: Okay.
Scott Roy: like the you know, a lot of times people are pretty desperate when when that when that phone rings, right? The house is on fire, so to speak. I wish they'd call a little earlier because you know, having that sort of sense of sense of urgency is is not helpful in an organization. I mean, that, you know, emergency, not a sense of urgency, but that sense of emergency is you know, is not helpful in thinking clearly and making good decisions. you know, you oftentimes when you feel that pressure and it's so intense, you're gonna do things that are really s you look back and that And think, God, that was stupid. You know, that was really stupid that we did that. People don't make good decisions usually when they're under pressure. So we would pr we would much prefer working with somebody who says, Look, I know I'm not an expert in sales, and you're s you know, you you are and or at least you say you are. You know, we're gonna hire you and you help us develop our strategy so that we get it right from day one, right? We sometimes we get a chance to do that. in fact I was on the phone yesterday with with a client who did that with us twice. And and he, you know, he's now moved on from that position after being there ten years. And now he wants to be a consultant with us. So but but but he you know he was proactive and he understood the importance of of of of getting it right from day one.
Mikulas: If you look at like into the future, what's your vision with the firm and with everything going on that you have? do you have a third book go coming out?
Scott Roy: No, we we've decided we were gonna write one on management, but we decided not to do that. we're using other ways to get, you know, to get messages out. Like I I recorded a series, it ac actually was a book that we had written as it was our first book, but we never published it. and it was called Stop Doing Stupid. and what we were looking at were thirty topics, ten in attitude, ten in competence, and ten in execution. that sales managers and salespeople make mistakes, right? And so we we looked at ten common mistakes in each of those categories. And we just basically said, stop doing this and start doing this, you say. And and so what we did is we actually broke that book up into thirty short videos, accompanied by the text. So that I I did a two minute intro and then and then they would get you know, people would get the text of, you know, stop doing stupid and on a particular topic. So no no no books in our future. I
Mikulas: Hm. Yeah, I've
Scott Roy: don't think. I I don't think. But my my business partner has retired. I'm still in the business and I'm I intend to continue in the business. you know, long after most people retire. I'm s I'm sixty nine right now. I just got back from Guatemala working with an organization there and just and and just you know just recently got back from India working with a very large and very potentially very game changing consultation with the India Postal Service that that could supply glasses to every Indian citizen in the world in in across India, you know, over a a billion people. So we'll we'll
Mikulas: Hmm.
Scott Roy: see. We'll see where that goes.
Mikulas: I think like on a similar note that you said earlier about not doing stupid stuff, AI is great at actually making more shiny objects. I feel like a lot of people like nowadays. are using AI for the wrong stuff and
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: you can do with AI everything so quickly that you know it becomes like really challenging even for me
Scott Roy: Mm-hmm.
Mikulas: sometimes that when I for example look at LinkedIn and I see all of these posts saying you know that there is a new AI thing going on and it's the best and you should you should try it and you know, to resist the urge and really look at it like from face value that like the fundamentals won't change. Like for example, if you if we take sales that there is has to be some kind of trust established, a relationship of some sort, and there needs to be the need and the problem to fix. and no AI really can fix that. Right. Scott, if people would like to partner up or reach out to you, what's kind of the best place for them to do so?
Scott Roy: Yeah, they can write to me directly if they'd like, Scott at Wrpartnership dot com. it's W R Whitney and Roy, but WRPartnership dot com. Or you can visit the website and and then on there is a a link to click to send a an email. And our
Mikulas: Sweet.
Scott Roy: books are available on on Amazon as well as as well as Barnes and Nobles and Apple Books and all that too. So in hardback or Yeah, in the softback.
Mikulas: Great. So I will leave contact information down below.
Scott Roy: Thank you.
Mikulas: And Scott, thank you for coming on and sharing your thoughts.
Scott Roy: Thank you, Mick. Appreciate it.
