Shruti: 00
Welcome to Confluence, an IASH sponsored podcast that explores various public humanities projects on the Binghamton University campus and elsewhere. I'm so happy we are joined by Dr. Bryan Kirschen and Dr. Dina Danon, Professors at Binghamton University, who in addition to their various scholarly interests, also co-direct Binghamton University's Ladino collaborative or the Ladino Lab, which is an initiative that offers undergraduates, graduate students and faculty training in reading Latino texts andpaleography. The co-directors of Latino collaboratory, Dr. Kishan and Dr. Damon shared with us the motivation and inspiration behind this project. They talk about how the project started. The friendships that have blossomed across age or cultural barriers through this project, the way that this project has not just morphed with the onset of COVID, but also acted as a way for people involved to build community and resilience during this difficult time. Could you share with our audience what the Ladino collaboratory is all about?
Dr. Kirschen: 1:10
Okay, sure.
I'd be happy to first thank you for including us in your in your new podcast. We appreciate it. Our projects, as you mentioned, the Ladino collaboratory or the Latino lab is an NIH sponsored Public Humanities Initiative to teach and educate and share the world of Latino and the Sephardi world with our students, faculty and staff whoever's interested on a language and a language that's considered endangered a language that is spoken and has been spoken by Sephardi Jews, following their expulsion from Spain and primarily throughout who have lived throughout the Ottoman Empire for centuries, Turkey in the Balkans, we work with students every week, for the past three years, we have been training our students primarily on how to read but also at times how to speak this Spanish like language, which is known as Ladino, or Judeo Spanish, but has been written traditionally in Hebrew based characters. So throughout the pandemic, we have been meeting either online or at times in person, and creating a number of opportunities for students and faculty to not only interact with us and to learn about Ladino, but also to interact with speakers of the language today.
Shruti:2:30
That's amazing. You said earlier that it's been three years since you've been doing this project. And I think we spoke about this when we were not recording also about like how this once the project started COVID head, and then things have probably changed from how you envision them. Could you talk about that a little bit? How COVID maybe changed your plans for the project? And how this project may have had a role to play in people coping with COVID?
Dr Danon: 3:01
Yeah, I love that question. Because we got the we got the grant. And then yeah, COVID kind of exploded. And so we were forced to rethink, you know, we zoom was just like, I guess something people had dabbled in, but it wasn't a default for anyone. And so we, you know, had to quickly pivot online. But we found, I think in that enormous opportunities for for the for the project, because we were able to, we were able to build a community that was really international, those, you know, we were able to pair speak, we were able to pair students with speakers all over the world, thanks to zoom. And I don't think that we had even considered that. I don't know, I'm not sure, you know, we hadn't really had a chance to really map out the logistics, you know, before, you know, before the pandemic broke, broke out. So I think we were able to sort of capitalize on Zoom, and actually, we're better off I think the project was better off or it and I could just speak personally and say like those early days of 2020. I mean, I looked forward to it was like, it's just such a special project because the students don't get credit for it. You know, these are students that are passionate, they're engaged, they're interested, like they're here just to learn, you know, and it's just created this really fun, warm, welcoming environment that I looked forward to in the I mean, I continued to look forward to it. It was especially precious in that in those early days where you know, things were just felt like they were spinning out of control. And we had this sweet little community online. That and we occasionally include our our speakers in events, we had them come speak a couple of times like we we do these end of year programs, where the students have done demonstrated, you know, demonstrated all that they've learned. They've written poetry they've performed. They've performed short scenes from plays like they've they've they've performed musical pieces drawing on Ladino repertoire. So it's been, it's been beautiful, actually.
Dr. Kirschen: 5:21
Yeah, I would agree. And I think that, you know, as Dina said that this isn't a class. So for people, it's an outlet to, to learn about something that interests them, but maybe, but in a way, that's not stressful, and in a way that is even enjoyable. And I think that that's something we've seen with Latino and Latino interests over the past few years, that there's really this resurgence of interest, and also opportunity for people, not just at our university, but beyond, to learn about Latino and to connect with speakers. And really, if there is a silver lining, it's that, you know, students, you know, we meet every week with our students. So that's really the main component of our lives, you know that. But as far as connecting with speakers through our apprenticeship program, which is really just a subset of our members, you know, what better way to connect them through zoom? Regardless? Right? I mean, this was this allowed Dina and I to kind of think a little bit beyond the initial scope of the project in the sense that, you know, what can we do through zoom, and this was a great way to facilitate meaningful relationships and interactions with speakers outside of the university.
Dr. Danon: 6:27
Yeah, and Brian actually did a really great thing earlier, earlier this semester with Zoom, where the students visited a museum over zoom, you know, like, they were able to visit the Tenement Museum and meet the the Victoria, in Victoria confini. So, you know, that would never have occurred to anybody that that would have been possible three years ago.
Shruti:6:55
Yeah, that was fabulous, I think in you sent a thing out, and I was able to attend that; that was really, really impressive. And I quite envied the undergraduates who got the opportunity to see that when they were in the undergraduates, you know, it was wonderful. It was really wonderful. When, when you're just saying that, when you were just describing the project, you said that you pair students with speakers of the language today. And I was wondering if you have witnessed in any of these pairings the students and the speakers develop any relationships beyond just the learning of the language?
Dr. Danon:7:31
Sure, Yeah, we have actually, I mean, I mean, Brian could probably speak to this, too. But Brian has, has spearheaded the language apprenticeship program. And so I know that he takes special care and matching the language partners. So we sort of look for people with shared interests, or you know, who come at Latino with maybe a similar background. And so we've seen these amazing friendships kind of blossom between, just because of the way Ladino is, and its history and where it stands right now, many speakers are, are older. And so we've, we've, it's been amazing to see these relationships between like college kids and, and older adults around the world. I should say that we've sort of began to think more expansively about what a native speaker, what a language partner might look like. And so we've started to include speakers who might have come to Ladino maybe hurted growing up, but like, had began to really learn it in seriousness as adults and so you know, we we have a kind of broader range of, of language pairs right now, where we have maybe speakers who again, started to learn it with more kind of regularity and, and in, in maybe even semi formal settings as adults. And so they they sort of have become our language. What's our I don't know, our language masters are our native speakers, or native adjacent speaker. But it's been it's been really cool to see the to see the Binghamton students develop these relationships and they stay in touch, like when they text each other, and they they stay in touch after after the apprenticeship is formally over.
Shruti:9:26
Is it mostly undergraduates who take on these apprentices?
Dr. Kirschen: 9:31
Yes, it's mostly undergraduates. We've had some faculty involved too, which has been amazing. Yeah, that's incredible. And grad students have done I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we've had some grad students do the apprenticeship program also. Yeah.
Shruti:9:45
How many years has the project been going on?
Dr. Kirschen: 9:48
So this is now our third year.
Shruti: 9:51
Wow. I mean, if I may ask, What motivated you to start a project like this something as unique as this one
Dr. Kirschen:
Well, I think it's it's bInghamton University unique in some respects in the sense that thing is quite rare to have faculty or so many faculty members who specialized in some aspect of the Ladino speaking world, as you know, can tell you also, Binghamton University does have a history with Sephardi studies and just Ottomans studies and whatnot, for decades now. So it's not so new, at least to the university. But when I started at Binghamton, about eight years ago, I knew that Dina was here and I was excited to meet her, or to potentially collaborate with her, just because she being a scholar of history, Sephardi history in particular, and me focusing my research on linguistics and the language per se. It made total sense to collaborate and work together and share our love for the language which, and culture and history, which we not only work with, in our, in our research, but also in our, in our classes, with our students. So, you know, after a number of discussions, and and brainstorming sessions, we thought that working with IOSH, and applying for the grant for the Public Humanities Initiative would be a great start. And this is really the first opportunity that we've had to put something together. And I think it's been very meaningful, not only for the two of us, but also for the participants of the Latino lab. And from what we're seeing also the speakers of the language who are not connected to the university, but are getting to learn about the university and our students and just interest in the language as well.
Shruti: 11:42
Do you think that the way that this project is borne out if your scholarly interests now moving into a public humanities realm, this project also has impacted some of the ways in which you think about your other scholarly projects?
Dr. Danon: 11:58
Um, I think that, you know, that's a great question. And there are always I mean, ideally, there's this sort of symbiotic relationship between your kind of teaching portfolio and teaching agenda and your research agenda. And I see that like, you know, the research that I'm doing now, I'm working on this project on the marketplace of matchmaking and marriage, in the Ottoman Sephardi world. And so when I find a really cool source, I bring that to the Ladino. Lab. And we practice reading that. And so that's been kind of really generative for me, but just in terms of the content. But I think also in terms of like, it's always helpful to sort of think about broader audiences for your scholarship, as opposed to, you know, as opposed to the kind of, I mean, not to I'm not trying to suggest that it's not important to sort of publish in scholarly venues. Of course it is. But I also think it's, especially for our fields, which kind of exist in the margins of Jewish Studies in the margins of Middle East Studies. And, you know, I have found that it's really important to sort of make a case, why our case study where I were the diaspora that we study, why it's important, not just because it existed, but because it helps us fill out the picture because it helps us rethink, you know, a lot of the categories and questions that we treat a standard in Jewish history, oftentimes, these come from Western experiences, they come from, you know, the study of Western Europe or the study of Jews in the United States, right. And when we foreground Jews in the Islamic world, Ladino speaking community and Ottoman lens, it forces us in a really healthy way to rethink assumptions about, you know, what had modernity mean, to people outside of, you know, what, how did us become modern and outside of the West? And so we are, what were their relationships, like with their Muslim neighbors? So, you know, that I think, the Ladino lab, kind of, you know, on the one hand, yes, we sort of we can become, I don't know, technocrats and sort of studying the paleography and decoding it and, you know, becoming it and I do find that really rewarding, but I think the challenge is also to sort of take that and make a broader case for its significance to people outside our immediate field. So that's my take on on the on the issue. Brian, I don't know if you want to follow up or…
Dr. Kirschen: 14:23
so within the field of linguistics or Hispanic linguistics or even Judeo Spanish linguistics, variation is really important. And so one of the things that I've had the opportunity to do also co leading or co-directing this initiative with Dina is to explore more. This concept of variation you know, we work with speakers of Ladino outside of this group, from all over and we've incorporated speakers from Ladino of Ladino. From from Greece from Turkey, and even speaker of well would say maybe Judeo Spanish or haka, Thea for I'm Morocco originally. So sing that variation has been very useful to me, especially as I continue to document and examine or even analyze the varieties of this language. And I think it's also been meaningful for students as well to just kind of deconstruct preconceived notions of what language is, like, you know, had mentioned before, especially a language like this, which belongs to a number of different language families and a very different status in regard to vitality. So I think it's been very productive in that regard.
Shruti: 15:31
That sounds great that that sounds like a really productive process for you, as well as the people who have participated in the project so far. Is there anything that you may want to say to the audience who might listen to you talk about the Ladino lab who probably haven't heard about it before? And who might be interested maybe in this project.
Dr. Kirschen: 15:55
I would invite them to come join us. And I'd say this is the I guess this is the last year of the grant. But I don't think it's the last year for our project or initiative on campus. And so we're always eager to meet students who might be interested. And there's, you know, there are no prerequisites, there's no requirements, it's just come out of just the sheer love of learning and curiosity. And that's all no one needs to know anything about Ladino before showing up. So we're delighted to have you.
Dr. Danon: 16:29
Yeah. And while we don't have a large social media presence at this point, we can be contacted at ladino@binghamton.edu. So latino@binghamton.edu, and we will be happy to share news of all that we're doing or things on the horizon.
Shruti: 16:49
That was amazing, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for sharing everything about the project and about your personal interests and everything here has evolved. It was really wonderful. Thank you
Welcome to Confluence, an IASH sponsored podcast that explores various public humanities projects on the Binghamton University campus and elsewhere. I'm so happy we are joined by Dr. Bryan Kirschen and Dr. Dina Danon, Professors at Binghamton University, who in addition to their various scholarly interests, also co-direct Binghamton University's Ladino collaborative or the Ladino Lab, which is an initiative that offers undergraduates, graduate students and faculty training in reading Latino texts andpaleography. The co-directors of Latino collaboratory, Dr. Kishan and Dr. Damon shared with us the motivation and inspiration behind this project. They talk about how the project started. The friendships that have blossomed across age or cultural barriers through this project, the way that this project has not just morphed with the onset of COVID, but also acted as a way for people involved to build community and resilience during this difficult time. Could you share with our audience what the Ladino collaboratory is all about?
Dr. Kirschen: 1:10
Okay, sure.
I'd be happy to first thank you for including us in your in your new podcast. We appreciate it. Our projects, as you mentioned, the Ladino collaboratory or the Latino lab is an NIH sponsored Public Humanities Initiative to teach and educate and share the world of Latino and the Sephardi world with our students, faculty and staff whoever's interested on a language and a language that's considered endangered a language that is spoken and has been spoken by Sephardi Jews, following their expulsion from Spain and primarily throughout who have lived throughout the Ottoman Empire for centuries, Turkey in the Balkans, we work with students every week, for the past three years, we have been training our students primarily on how to read but also at times how to speak this Spanish like language, which is known as Ladino, or Judeo Spanish, but has been written traditionally in Hebrew based characters. So throughout the pandemic, we have been meeting either online or at times in person, and creating a number of opportunities for students and faculty to not only interact with us and to learn about Ladino, but also to interact with speakers of the language today.
Shruti:2:30
That's amazing. You said earlier that it's been three years since you've been doing this project. And I think we spoke about this when we were not recording also about like how this once the project started COVID head, and then things have probably changed from how you envision them. Could you talk about that a little bit? How COVID maybe changed your plans for the project? And how this project may have had a role to play in people coping with COVID?
Dr Danon: 3:01
Yeah, I love that question. Because we got the we got the grant. And then yeah, COVID kind of exploded. And so we were forced to rethink, you know, we zoom was just like, I guess something people had dabbled in, but it wasn't a default for anyone. And so we, you know, had to quickly pivot online. But we found, I think in that enormous opportunities for for the for the project, because we were able to, we were able to build a community that was really international, those, you know, we were able to pair speak, we were able to pair students with speakers all over the world, thanks to zoom. And I don't think that we had even considered that. I don't know, I'm not sure, you know, we hadn't really had a chance to really map out the logistics, you know, before, you know, before the pandemic broke, broke out. So I think we were able to sort of capitalize on Zoom, and actually, we're better off I think the project was better off or it and I could just speak personally and say like those early days of 2020. I mean, I looked forward to it was like, it's just such a special project because the students don't get credit for it. You know, these are students that are passionate, they're engaged, they're interested, like they're here just to learn, you know, and it's just created this really fun, warm, welcoming environment that I looked forward to in the I mean, I continued to look forward to it. It was especially precious in that in those early days where you know, things were just felt like they were spinning out of control. And we had this sweet little community online. That and we occasionally include our our speakers in events, we had them come speak a couple of times like we we do these end of year programs, where the students have done demonstrated, you know, demonstrated all that they've learned. They've written poetry they've performed. They've performed short scenes from plays like they've they've they've performed musical pieces drawing on Ladino repertoire. So it's been, it's been beautiful, actually.
Dr. Kirschen: 5:21
Yeah, I would agree. And I think that, you know, as Dina said that this isn't a class. So for people, it's an outlet to, to learn about something that interests them, but maybe, but in a way, that's not stressful, and in a way that is even enjoyable. And I think that that's something we've seen with Latino and Latino interests over the past few years, that there's really this resurgence of interest, and also opportunity for people, not just at our university, but beyond, to learn about Latino and to connect with speakers. And really, if there is a silver lining, it's that, you know, students, you know, we meet every week with our students. So that's really the main component of our lives, you know that. But as far as connecting with speakers through our apprenticeship program, which is really just a subset of our members, you know, what better way to connect them through zoom? Regardless? Right? I mean, this was this allowed Dina and I to kind of think a little bit beyond the initial scope of the project in the sense that, you know, what can we do through zoom, and this was a great way to facilitate meaningful relationships and interactions with speakers outside of the university.
Dr. Danon: 6:27
Yeah, and Brian actually did a really great thing earlier, earlier this semester with Zoom, where the students visited a museum over zoom, you know, like, they were able to visit the Tenement Museum and meet the the Victoria, in Victoria confini. So, you know, that would never have occurred to anybody that that would have been possible three years ago.
Shruti:6:55
Yeah, that was fabulous, I think in you sent a thing out, and I was able to attend that; that was really, really impressive. And I quite envied the undergraduates who got the opportunity to see that when they were in the undergraduates, you know, it was wonderful. It was really wonderful. When, when you're just saying that, when you were just describing the project, you said that you pair students with speakers of the language today. And I was wondering if you have witnessed in any of these pairings the students and the speakers develop any relationships beyond just the learning of the language?
Dr. Danon:7:31
Sure, Yeah, we have actually, I mean, I mean, Brian could probably speak to this, too. But Brian has, has spearheaded the language apprenticeship program. And so I know that he takes special care and matching the language partners. So we sort of look for people with shared interests, or you know, who come at Latino with maybe a similar background. And so we've seen these amazing friendships kind of blossom between, just because of the way Ladino is, and its history and where it stands right now, many speakers are, are older. And so we've, we've, it's been amazing to see these relationships between like college kids and, and older adults around the world. I should say that we've sort of began to think more expansively about what a native speaker, what a language partner might look like. And so we've started to include speakers who might have come to Ladino maybe hurted growing up, but like, had began to really learn it in seriousness as adults and so you know, we we have a kind of broader range of, of language pairs right now, where we have maybe speakers who again, started to learn it with more kind of regularity and, and in, in maybe even semi formal settings as adults. And so they they sort of have become our language. What's our I don't know, our language masters are our native speakers, or native adjacent speaker. But it's been it's been really cool to see the to see the Binghamton students develop these relationships and they stay in touch, like when they text each other, and they they stay in touch after after the apprenticeship is formally over.
Shruti:9:26
Is it mostly undergraduates who take on these apprentices?
Dr. Kirschen: 9:31
Yes, it's mostly undergraduates. We've had some faculty involved too, which has been amazing. Yeah, that's incredible. And grad students have done I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we've had some grad students do the apprenticeship program also. Yeah.
Shruti:9:45
How many years has the project been going on?
Dr. Kirschen: 9:48
So this is now our third year.
Shruti: 9:51
Wow. I mean, if I may ask, What motivated you to start a project like this something as unique as this one
Dr. Kirschen:
Well, I think it's it's bInghamton University unique in some respects in the sense that thing is quite rare to have faculty or so many faculty members who specialized in some aspect of the Ladino speaking world, as you know, can tell you also, Binghamton University does have a history with Sephardi studies and just Ottomans studies and whatnot, for decades now. So it's not so new, at least to the university. But when I started at Binghamton, about eight years ago, I knew that Dina was here and I was excited to meet her, or to potentially collaborate with her, just because she being a scholar of history, Sephardi history in particular, and me focusing my research on linguistics and the language per se. It made total sense to collaborate and work together and share our love for the language which, and culture and history, which we not only work with, in our, in our research, but also in our, in our classes, with our students. So, you know, after a number of discussions, and and brainstorming sessions, we thought that working with IOSH, and applying for the grant for the Public Humanities Initiative would be a great start. And this is really the first opportunity that we've had to put something together. And I think it's been very meaningful, not only for the two of us, but also for the participants of the Latino lab. And from what we're seeing also the speakers of the language who are not connected to the university, but are getting to learn about the university and our students and just interest in the language as well.
Shruti: 11:42
Do you think that the way that this project is borne out if your scholarly interests now moving into a public humanities realm, this project also has impacted some of the ways in which you think about your other scholarly projects?
Dr. Danon: 11:58
Um, I think that, you know, that's a great question. And there are always I mean, ideally, there's this sort of symbiotic relationship between your kind of teaching portfolio and teaching agenda and your research agenda. And I see that like, you know, the research that I'm doing now, I'm working on this project on the marketplace of matchmaking and marriage, in the Ottoman Sephardi world. And so when I find a really cool source, I bring that to the Ladino. Lab. And we practice reading that. And so that's been kind of really generative for me, but just in terms of the content. But I think also in terms of like, it's always helpful to sort of think about broader audiences for your scholarship, as opposed to, you know, as opposed to the kind of, I mean, not to I'm not trying to suggest that it's not important to sort of publish in scholarly venues. Of course it is. But I also think it's, especially for our fields, which kind of exist in the margins of Jewish Studies in the margins of Middle East Studies. And, you know, I have found that it's really important to sort of make a case, why our case study where I were the diaspora that we study, why it's important, not just because it existed, but because it helps us fill out the picture because it helps us rethink, you know, a lot of the categories and questions that we treat a standard in Jewish history, oftentimes, these come from Western experiences, they come from, you know, the study of Western Europe or the study of Jews in the United States, right. And when we foreground Jews in the Islamic world, Ladino speaking community and Ottoman lens, it forces us in a really healthy way to rethink assumptions about, you know, what had modernity mean, to people outside of, you know, what, how did us become modern and outside of the West? And so we are, what were their relationships, like with their Muslim neighbors? So, you know, that I think, the Ladino lab, kind of, you know, on the one hand, yes, we sort of we can become, I don't know, technocrats and sort of studying the paleography and decoding it and, you know, becoming it and I do find that really rewarding, but I think the challenge is also to sort of take that and make a broader case for its significance to people outside our immediate field. So that's my take on on the on the issue. Brian, I don't know if you want to follow up or…
Dr. Kirschen: 14:23
so within the field of linguistics or Hispanic linguistics or even Judeo Spanish linguistics, variation is really important. And so one of the things that I've had the opportunity to do also co leading or co-directing this initiative with Dina is to explore more. This concept of variation you know, we work with speakers of Ladino outside of this group, from all over and we've incorporated speakers from Ladino of Ladino. From from Greece from Turkey, and even speaker of well would say maybe Judeo Spanish or haka, Thea for I'm Morocco originally. So sing that variation has been very useful to me, especially as I continue to document and examine or even analyze the varieties of this language. And I think it's also been meaningful for students as well to just kind of deconstruct preconceived notions of what language is, like, you know, had mentioned before, especially a language like this, which belongs to a number of different language families and a very different status in regard to vitality. So I think it's been very productive in that regard.
Shruti: 15:31
That sounds great that that sounds like a really productive process for you, as well as the people who have participated in the project so far. Is there anything that you may want to say to the audience who might listen to you talk about the Ladino lab who probably haven't heard about it before? And who might be interested maybe in this project.
Dr. Kirschen: 15:55
I would invite them to come join us. And I'd say this is the I guess this is the last year of the grant. But I don't think it's the last year for our project or initiative on campus. And so we're always eager to meet students who might be interested. And there's, you know, there are no prerequisites, there's no requirements, it's just come out of just the sheer love of learning and curiosity. And that's all no one needs to know anything about Ladino before showing up. So we're delighted to have you.
Dr. Danon: 16:29
Yeah. And while we don't have a large social media presence at this point, we can be contacted at ladino@binghamton.edu. So latino@binghamton.edu, and we will be happy to share news of all that we're doing or things on the horizon.
Shruti: 16:49
That was amazing, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for sharing everything about the project and about your personal interests and everything here has evolved. It was really wonderful. Thank you
