Robert Caro

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Brought to you by Transport for Ireland.
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Hi, my name is Robert Caro. And I'm really cautiously
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optimistic about being old Conor O'Brien's friend.
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Fall is here, hear the yell. Back to school, ring
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the bell. Brand new shoes, walkin' loose.
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Climb the fence, books and pens.
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I can tell that we are.
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Gonna be friends.
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Hello there and welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.
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This is the show where I very desperately use the
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podcast format to make people be friendly to me for
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an hour at a time. Then they usually get away.
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I'm joined by my assistant, Sonoma Sesson. You're my assistant
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in real life, aren't you? I am your assistant in
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real life. Do you feel like you assist me? Why
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do you always ask me these questions? Yes, I assist you.
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I am the only assistant you have. Things happen, and
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they happen because I assist you. Yes, okay. Take it easy. No,
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you do this all the time. You're shouting into a
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very sensitive microphone. I'm sorry. If you're driving right now,
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I apologize for Sona's... Shriek. It's always like, hey, I'm
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here with my assistant, Soda. She sucks at her job.
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You do not. And then there's Matt. He's got a beard.
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I could do your intro for you. I didn't get
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to Matt. Yes, Matt Gourley, if that's even a real name.
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How are you, Matt? Good to see you.
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Good to see you.
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Oh, come on. Show a little enthusiasm. I haven't gone
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after you yet. Well, I feel like you're about to. No,
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I'm not. I've got my guard up. I've got my
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shield up. I've never seen... It's impressive. I've never seen
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headphones that are tweed before. He has tweed headphones.
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Oh my God.
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Pretty funny. Score one for Conan.
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It is pretty good.
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I'll give you that one. That's pretty good. I thought
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you'd be on your best behavior today. You know what?
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You'd think I would be on my best behavior because
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this is a very, very, very special episode of Conan
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O'Brien Needs a Friend. I've been pursuing my next guest
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for years, years and years and years.
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That sounds threatening.
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The New York Times referred to this man as the
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white whale to my Ahab, which means he'll end up
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killing me. He is considered by many, many people to
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be one of the greatest biographers of all time for
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his groundbreaking work on Robert Moses and his many books
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on Lyndon Johnson. Well, the impossible has happened. He is here,
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sitting right across from me. He can't escape, ladies and gentlemen. Mr.
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Robert Caro. You know the story that I've been trying
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to hunt you down to get an interview with you
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for years, and I don't think you even knew that.
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No, my publisher arranges things, and I never even heard that.
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Yeah, and your publisher apparently really hates my guts. And
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probably for good reason. But I'm just going to back
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up here. I'm sure I have many listeners who are
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very familiar with your work, and I'm sure I also
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have many listeners who are very young. who haven't read
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your work, aren't familiar with your work. And I want
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to stop for just a second and say, for God's sake,
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do yourself a favor. Sometimes I think people freeze up
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when they hear historical biography or historic work. They think, well,
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this is going to be dry. This is going to
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be homework. And what Robert Caro has done is he
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has figured out a way to write history in In
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a way where you read it and you feel like
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you're reading a gripping novel. All of it's true. He's
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a stickler for the facts. But it's so well written
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that your heart is in your mouth at times when
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you're reading these accounts. You've written about a guy named
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Robert Moses who intrigued you because... you found out that
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he was probably the most powerful man in the history
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of New York, but he had never been elected to anything.
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Nobody really knew how he had this power. But this
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is the man that if you are in New York City,
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you cannot... probably walk 15 feet without running into something
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that Robert Caro built. What did Robert Caro build?
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Robert Moses.
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I'm sorry, Robert Moses. What did you.
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Ever do, Robert Caro?
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Sorry. You can tell I really didn't do my research.
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I thought it was you that built all the bridges.
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But I'm sorry, Robert Moses, literally he built everything you
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can imagine in New York City.
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He built 627 miles of expressways and parkways. If you're
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driving on a highway in or around New York City
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or its suburbs, you are driving on a road built
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by one man.
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Robert Moses.
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If you're on a modern bridge, the Verrazano, the Triborough, etc.,
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you're driving on a bridge he built. If you're in
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a park, you're in a park that he either created
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or reshaped. He built so much in New York that
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when he was with the New York City Public Housing Authority,
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he didn't even include what he had done there in
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his resume. But in fact, he built Apartments for 148,000 people.
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So that city is shaped by this one man who,
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as you say, was never elected to anything.
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That is a book called The Power Broker. This book
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is absolutely riveting. It's beautifully told. And what I'm doing
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right now is I'm going back and I'm listening to
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the audio book. Have you ever listened to the audio
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book of any of your?
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Actually, I haven't.
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You know what? They got someone very good to read it.
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So I understand.
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Yeah, he's very good. And so I have, here in
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Los Angeles, you have to drive everywhere and it takes forever.
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And I put on The Power Broker a few weeks
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ago and I listened to it when I'm driving around
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and it reminds me how well the book is written.
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how great the story is. And I also know that
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it will never run out. I can listen to this
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for 20 years. It's a really long one, but it's fantastic.
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They apparently have a very good reader with a little
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British accent.
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You hear my accent, right?
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Yes, I hear your.
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Accent, yeah.
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So I said to my agent once, can I read
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this one? And she said, then the price will go down.
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You've got a pretty thick New York accent there.
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Yeah.
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So they didn't want you reading it. So yeah, you also,
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you have just won world acclaim for your writings about
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Lyndon Johnson, starting with the first book, Path to Power. Again,
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I know I sound like a school teacher, but I
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would implore people who are listening, go out and get
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this book or get it on your Kindle or get
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the book on tape, get the Power Broker and get
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started and listen to the story. of this young guy,
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Lyndon Johnson, and it's absolutely, and it will floor you,
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because what you've managed to do is write, as I said,
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you write history in a way that puts you there.
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You really feel like, I understand this kid, Lyndon Johnson.
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I understand what it's like to live in the hill
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country in Texas at that time. You have a lot
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of empathy for these people that you write about. We
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talked a little bit about that last night, but your
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sense of place, in order to write about Lyndon Johnson,
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you moved. You decided, I can't write about this guy
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unless I move to the hill country in Texas and
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live there.
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Yes.
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And your wife, who's with us today, Ina, who also
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does the research and is such a powerful force in
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your creative life, She said, okay, let's do it.
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She didn't quite say that. She said, why can't you
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do a biography of Napoleon? But then, of course, being minor,
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she said, sure.
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Sure, okay. Yeah, it would be nice. Why can't you pick...
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Why couldn't you have picked a historic figure who lived
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mostly in the south of France and ate a lot
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of delicious pastries? To really understand him, Robert Caro and
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Ina had to eat all those pastries. He lived in
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a castle, and I need to live in a castle.
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But no, you had to write about someone who lived
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in the hill country. And you didn't set out to
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go into this kind of detail, but one of the
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things that just was so remarkable in that first book
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is that you went back to the hill country and
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you wanted to really understand how hard it was for
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people to live. There was no electricity in the hill
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country when Lyndon Johnson was born and grew up. He
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was the one that brought the electricity there. You spent
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a lot of time really figuring out what a day
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was like for someone who lived. And it was really
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the story of poverty.
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Yes, and loneliness.
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The loneliness out there was something that I couldn't understand
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because I grew up in New York City. Lyndon Johnson
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lived out on the Johnson Ranch, which is really in
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the middle of nowhere. One corner of that ranch came
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down to... what they called the Austin-Fredericksburg Highway. But it
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was an unpaved, rutted road between Austin and Fredericksburg. And
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Lyndon Johnson's little brother used to tell me how he
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and Lyndon would go down and sit on the corner
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of that fence closest to the road in the hope
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that one new rider or a carriage would come by
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and have one new person to talk to. I couldn't
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even understand that loneliness or, as you say.
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The poverty. There was no cash there.
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You know, you could get a dime if you sold
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a dozen eggs, but you had to sell them in
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a place called Marble Falls, which was 23 miles from
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Johnson City. So a friend of Lyndon Johnson's, a guy
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named Ben Crider, told me how every Saturday, market day,
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he'd ride those 23 miles carrying a dozen eggs in
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a box in front of him, holding the box in
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both hands so that they wouldn't break. I said, I'm
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not understanding these people. And I'm not understanding Lyndon Johnson.
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You're just going to have to move there and try
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to learn what it was like to live there.
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So you move there with Ina, and you uproot yourself
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from New York. You're living in the hill country. One
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of the effects this had, because you live there and
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you stayed there, is that the people started to get
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to know you.
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Yes, exactly.
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And then you went from being that guy from New
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York with the glasses who's asking a lot of questions
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about Lyndon Johnson... You transform over time into, oh, there's Bob.
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There's Bob Carroll. I know him.
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Or there's Ina. Because the women, there were a lot
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of widows in the hill country. They wouldn't really be frank,
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you know, talk to me about their personal lives, what
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it was like without electricity.
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We had three fig trees on our property.
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So Ina learned how to make fig preserves, and she'd
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go first with the gift of fig preserves, and suddenly
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people got friendly to me.
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Has Ina continued to make fig preserves, and should we
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market those?
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No.
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Okay, no, okay.
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Oh, okay. Okay.
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Clearly not a fan. They were okay, but not up
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to your standards of fig preserves. There's a scene in
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the book, in the first book that you wrote on
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Lyndon Johnson, where the pivotal point in his life was
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his father. He looked up to his father, idolized his father.
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Lyndon Johnson idolized his father. And then like so many
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sort of almost Greek tragedies, his father makes a mistake.
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His father invests in this ranch. The soil wasn't good
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in the ranch. Yes. And suddenly they're broke. And one
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of the things you were able to do when you
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got out there is actually see why that ranch failed.
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Yes.
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And it's a great story.
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Well, then I'll tell it to you.
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Okay. That's how this works. Yeah.
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So Lyndon Johnson idolized his father.
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He was a legislator in the Texas legislature, and he
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passed a lot of progressive legislation. And Lyndon said, you know,
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the happiest days of my life were when I would
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go out campaigning from farm to farm.
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With my father. You'd see how everyone respected him and all.
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Then his father made, as you just said it, one mistake.
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The Johnson Ranch was covered, what became the Johnson Ranch
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was covered with beautiful grass. It's so beautiful when you
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drive out there today. So one of Lyndon's cousins, his
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00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:48.940
favorite cousin, Ava, said, well, I want to show you
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something about Sam Johnson and what it means to make
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a mistake. So she drove me to a hill at
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the edge.
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Of the ranch. She said, now get out of the car.
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I got out of the car. She said, now kneel down.
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I knelt down.
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She said, now stick your fingers into the soil, this
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soil covered with beautiful grass. And you stuck your fingers
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00:14:08.620 --> 00:14:11.799
and you couldn't even get the whole finger in because
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00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:13.220
there was so little grass there.
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00:14:13.610 --> 00:14:15.870
That it looked beautiful, but if you tried to make.
279
00:14:15.710 --> 00:14:19.210
A living from it, either plant cotton, then the grass
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00:14:19.529 --> 00:14:23.049
washed away, or graze cattle, or the cattle laid it down,
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you couldn't do anything with it. So in an instant,
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00:14:26.990 --> 00:14:29.580
as you just put it, they were broke. From about
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00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:33.320
the age of 13, the father became the laughingstock of town,
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and they lived in a little house in Johnson City
285
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that every month Lyndon was afraid the bank was going
286
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to take away. And they often didn't even have food
287
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in the house because the mother was also often sick,
288
00:14:46.610 --> 00:14:50.009
so neighbors had to bring covered dishes there. And his
289
00:14:50.090 --> 00:14:54.899
feelings toward his father changed to one of absolute conflict
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00:14:54.980 --> 00:14:56.360
the rest of his boyhood.
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00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:57.120
Yeah.
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00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.860
There's a great scene you talk about in the book
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00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:03.279
that you got out of Lyndon Johnson's brother. where the
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00:15:03.330 --> 00:15:07.230
father and Lyndon are fighting bitterly at the table, and
295
00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:10.710
the father is demeaning Lyndon, saying, you're not college material.
296
00:15:10.769 --> 00:15:12.710
You're not college material, and you're.
297
00:15:12.610 --> 00:15:14.610
Going to be a failure. Yeah.
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00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:18.350
And Lyndon snaps back, and what are you? You're just
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a bus inspector.
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Yeah.
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00:15:20.509 --> 00:15:24.610
And you read that exchange, and it's like you're reading
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00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:28.389
a classic play. It's Willie Loman. It's Death of a Salesman.
303
00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:28.929
It's just.
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00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.279
it hits you right in the gut, this terrible disappointment
305
00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:34.549
that the father, that the son has for the father
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00:15:35.190 --> 00:15:37.250
and the resentment the father has for the son that
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00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:38.610
he maybe gets another chance.
308
00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:39.330
Yes.
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00:15:39.570 --> 00:15:41.970
That's a terrific way of summing it up. And that's
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00:15:42.250 --> 00:15:43.009
really what happened.
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00:15:43.309 --> 00:15:46.820
You know, there's another thing that just talking to anyone
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00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:49.360
out there who's listening who might think, well, I haven't
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00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:52.519
read these books, but why Lyndon Johnson? What's the significance
314
00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:54.799
of Lyndon Johnson? I know he was a president. I
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00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.600
know he was president during Vietnam, but what, What's the
316
00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:00.299
real significance there? One of the things that stands out
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00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:03.700
in one of your books, Master of the Senate, is
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00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:08.860
that up until Lyndon Johnson, the Senate didn't function. And
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00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:12.879
then he becomes... Majority leader. He becomes the majority leader.
320
00:16:13.269 --> 00:16:15.289
And then when he's done being majority leader and he
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00:16:15.309 --> 00:16:17.610
becomes the vice president, eventually the president, but the minute
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00:16:17.649 --> 00:16:19.809
he stops that job, it has never really worked since.
323
00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:24.169
What is it that Lyndon Johnson had that enabled him
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00:16:24.850 --> 00:16:27.519
to make... the Senate work that no one else has
325
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:29.259
been able to crack in the history of our country.
326
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:33.320
You know, that's the nature of political genius. To me,
327
00:16:33.580 --> 00:16:38.440
if you're interested, you're interested in how government works. You're
328
00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:41.679
looking at a genius. He comes to be majority leader.
329
00:16:42.070 --> 00:16:45.350
Johnson comes in, he wants to pass civil rights legislation
330
00:16:45.389 --> 00:16:49.789
and voting rights legislation. And you watch him vote by vote,
331
00:16:50.049 --> 00:16:54.129
turn that Senate around. And you really say, could anyone
332
00:16:54.190 --> 00:16:57.970
else have done this? I sometimes think, I do think,
333
00:16:58.529 --> 00:17:02.009
we wouldn't have that voting rights legislation today if Lyndon
334
00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:05.670
Johnson hadn't had this genius for it then. When John
335
00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:10.519
Kennedy is assassinated on that day, he's proposed this wonderful
336
00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:14.160
civil rights bill in a wonderful speech. But that bill
337
00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:16.859
wasn't going nowhere. It was absolutely dead.
338
00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:18.940
Right. The South was not going to, they were not
339
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:19.819
going to let that happen.
340
00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:21.579
No, it wasn't going to happen.
341
00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:25.529
So four days after Johnson becomes president, he has to
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give his first address to Congress, a joint session of Congress.
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He's not even in the Oval Office then. He's still
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00:17:31.589 --> 00:17:35.279
in his private home. downstairs at the kitchen table, three
345
00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.039
or four of his speechwriters are gathered around trying to
346
00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:40.240
write this speech. And he comes down after a while
347
00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:42.019
and asks how they're doing. And they say, well, the
348
00:17:42.059 --> 00:17:45.140
only thing we can agree on is don't make civil
349
00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:48.480
rights a priority. You do that, you're going to antagonize
350
00:17:48.529 --> 00:17:50.869
these Southern Committee chairmen. They're going to do to you
351
00:17:50.970 --> 00:17:53.829
what they did to Kennedy, and you're going to stop
352
00:17:53.869 --> 00:17:57.329
your whole legislative program. You know what Johnson's—and they say,
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00:17:57.349 --> 00:18:00.990
you know, it's a noble cause, but it's a lost cause.
354
00:18:01.049 --> 00:18:03.579
Don't fight for it. And you know what Johnson says?
355
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.880
He says, well, what the hell is the presidency for then?
356
00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:09.960
And in his speech, he says to them, they're all
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00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.779
sitting in front of him, all the Southern city chairmen,
358
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.440
and he says, our first priority is going to pay
359
00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.720
us Jack Kennedy's civil rights bill. And you watch him
360
00:18:19.819 --> 00:18:23.170
do that, and you say, I say, I never knew
361
00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:25.289
you could do this. I never knew you could do that.
362
00:18:26.430 --> 00:18:28.769
It's a poem of real genius.
363
00:18:29.250 --> 00:18:35.079
Yeah. Obviously, we have... leaders that can inspire. You mentioned Kennedy,
364
00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:38.170
and we have leaders like Obama that can inspire. And
365
00:18:38.230 --> 00:18:42.549
then there's the workings, the gears and the levers of
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00:18:42.670 --> 00:18:44.710
government that no one seems to be able to figure
367
00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:47.029
out anymore. And Lyndon Johnson may have been the last
368
00:18:47.089 --> 00:18:51.539
person who saw how it all worked. You called him, well,
369
00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:53.900
you found out that he was the best vote counter.
370
00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:56.240
He could figure out who was with him, who was
371
00:18:56.299 --> 00:18:59.059
not with him. And he could keep a tally in
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00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.039
his head at all times. And he made that system hum,
373
00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:04.200
unlike anyone else.
374
00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:04.660
Yes.
375
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:08.039
And, you know, part of it was people were afraid
376
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:10.119
of him and he made them afraid of him.
377
00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:15.779
And he was also, Lyndon Johnson was 6'4. And he,
378
00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.259
all these famous pictures, a bunch of them in your books,
379
00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:21.220
but they're everywhere of him getting, when he wanted to
380
00:19:21.259 --> 00:19:24.539
talk you into something, he, you know, today we have
381
00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:28.289
this concept of personal space. There's a whole movement about
382
00:19:28.369 --> 00:19:31.779
personal space and you don't invade someone's personal space. And
383
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.980
he would get chest to chest with people and lean
384
00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:40.519
over them and put his finger into their– and you
385
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.769
look at it now and you think, well, there's lawsuits
386
00:19:42.849 --> 00:19:47.890
left and right here. Men suing Lyndon Johnson for– it
387
00:19:47.930 --> 00:19:51.279
looks like he's physically assaulting them, but he's just leaning
388
00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:54.099
in and covering them like a blanket.
389
00:19:55.299 --> 00:20:00.049
Never thought of it that way, but that's certainly the case.
390
00:20:00.529 --> 00:20:03.230
You're a victim of your own success, which is you
391
00:20:03.250 --> 00:20:07.200
have so enthralled people with these books about Lyndon Johnson and...
392
00:20:08.609 --> 00:20:13.170
Now people are waiting for this installment that I think
393
00:20:13.210 --> 00:20:19.740
takes us from 64 to, I'm guessing, his death. Since 1973,
394
00:20:19.730 --> 00:20:24.400
does he die? And people want that book. And when
395
00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:26.440
is that book coming? And you've made it clear that
396
00:20:27.019 --> 00:20:29.480
there's a lot of research you need to do to
397
00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:31.880
really write this, including you believe you need to go
398
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.359
to Vietnam and spend some time there to understand that
399
00:20:35.420 --> 00:20:38.000
war and see it from the Vietnamese perspective. Is that right?
400
00:20:38.470 --> 00:20:42.200
And see it from the perspective of American boys who
401
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.180
for the first time had a fight in jungles, what
402
00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:48.019
that was like, yeah. You know, we dropped more bombs
403
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:52.750
on Vietnam than we dropped on Germany in World War II.
404
00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:53.430
Yeah.
405
00:20:53.789 --> 00:20:55.769
What you're talking about doing is going there and really
406
00:20:55.829 --> 00:20:59.150
living it, seeing it from that perspective and When you
407
00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:01.500
do something like that, I'm assuming Aina's going to go
408
00:21:01.539 --> 00:21:02.539
with you on this one too?
409
00:21:02.859 --> 00:21:05.319
Well, unless she wants to go to Paris.
410
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.380
There were peace talks in Vietnam in Paris. So Aina,
411
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.190
you could go and you could work on, you could say, look,
412
00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:19.829
I'll cover Paris. The Parisian, yeah, Parisian perspective on Paris.
413
00:21:20.049 --> 00:21:23.430
And you can do that. And stay at the Hotel
414
00:21:23.470 --> 00:21:25.210
George Sank. I think that would be, I think maybe
415
00:21:25.230 --> 00:21:29.690
that's where Kissinger stayed. And you can be in the jungle.
416
00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:33.920
You know, if you're a young adult aged 19 to
417
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.619
25 or a full time third level student, you can
418
00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:39.599
get half price public transport with a TFI lead card.
419
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Sounds complex.
420
00:21:41.140 --> 00:21:42.640
No, it's simple. 50% off journeys.
421
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422
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423
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:49.759
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427
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429
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430
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.529
It's interesting to me, it's fascinating to me, in how
431
00:22:09.549 --> 00:22:10.869
much of your work you've had to kind of be
432
00:22:10.910 --> 00:22:13.329
a detective. And not even kind of be a detective,
433
00:22:13.349 --> 00:22:15.789
you've had to be a detective. You've had to track
434
00:22:15.930 --> 00:22:19.759
people down. There is a great part in this new
435
00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:22.890
book working... There's this myth that Lyndon Johnson, when he
436
00:22:22.950 --> 00:22:26.549
was in high school and college, was very popular. And
437
00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:31.000
people just, they sound like broken records. And they're just saying, oh, yeah,
438
00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:34.279
good old Lyndon, good old Lyndon. But you suspect that
439
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:36.180
there might be more to the story than that. And
440
00:22:36.220 --> 00:22:39.049
you keep asking and people keep saying, there's this one
441
00:22:39.089 --> 00:22:41.630
guy who really knew Lyndon. Is it Vernon Whiteside? Yes.
442
00:22:41.869 --> 00:22:45.089
Vernon Whiteside. You say, is it Vernon Whiteside? They say,
443
00:22:45.130 --> 00:22:48.269
if you could get to Vernon Whiteside, boy, he'd tell
444
00:22:48.289 --> 00:22:50.670
you some stories. And a lot of people just told you,
445
00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:51.990
but that's too bad because he's dead.
446
00:22:52.150 --> 00:22:52.410
Yes.
447
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.460
Everyone thought he was dead because he had had this
448
00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:59.619
ranch and he was gone. But I'm trying to interview
449
00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:03.470
all the classmates. Anyway, they were all saying, I heard
450
00:23:03.569 --> 00:23:05.730
over and over again, oh, what's odd?
451
00:23:05.789 --> 00:23:06.390
He died.
452
00:23:06.650 --> 00:23:07.529
What's odd?
453
00:23:07.609 --> 00:23:07.869
He died.
454
00:23:07.910 --> 00:23:10.849
Oh, he died. He died. Yeah.
455
00:23:11.650 --> 00:23:13.599
That's what I was. That's how I was trying to
456
00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:13.890
do it.
457
00:23:13.970 --> 00:23:15.880
I'll do all your voices from now on. Let me
458
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.619
take over on the voices. But people convince you he's dead. Now,
459
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:23.140
to me, if I was a, thank God I'm not
460
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.000
a reporter or a biographer, I would have said, well,
461
00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:27.710
he's dead. So nothing we can do about that. Let's
462
00:23:27.750 --> 00:23:28.119
move on.
463
00:23:28.589 --> 00:23:30.910
So one day I was calling another, I tried to
464
00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:33.730
interview every one of his classmates who was still alive.
465
00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:36.289
And I called this guy, his name was Horace Richards.
466
00:23:36.529 --> 00:23:38.759
And I said, I wanted to drive down and see him.
467
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.200
He lived near Galveston. And he said, well, I don't
468
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.720
know the inside of some of these stories, but there's
469
00:23:44.849 --> 00:23:47.009
one guy who did old Vernon Whiteside.
470
00:23:47.049 --> 00:23:50.289
And I said, yeah, but old Whiteside, he did.
471
00:23:50.309 --> 00:23:53.529
The guy probably thought you were making fun of him.
472
00:23:54.730 --> 00:23:57.690
And he said, hell no, he ain't dead.
473
00:23:57.950 --> 00:23:59.779
He was here visiting me yesterday.
474
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:02.240
Oh, my God. So it turned out they thought he
475
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:04.539
was dead because he had sold his ranch, bought a
476
00:24:04.579 --> 00:24:08.460
mobile home, and taken his wife for a 15-month tour there.
477
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:11.859
all the way up to Alaska of the entire United States.
478
00:24:11.900 --> 00:24:14.980
And I said, well, where is he going? He said, well,
479
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.599
you know, they were going to have a permanent mobile
480
00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:21.559
home someplace in Florida. He said, the only thing I remember,
481
00:24:21.579 --> 00:24:23.480
it was north of Miami, and.
482
00:24:23.349 --> 00:24:27.109
It had Beach in its name. Oh, God.
483
00:24:27.150 --> 00:24:30.990
So I remember, today you have a national telephone directory
484
00:24:31.069 --> 00:24:31.789
on your computer.
485
00:24:31.809 --> 00:24:33.789
You can find anybody. Then you didn't.
486
00:24:34.049 --> 00:24:37.450
Every little town had its own phone book. So Einer,
487
00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:40.710
the New York Public Library used to have hundreds and
488
00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:43.779
hundreds of these little phone books. And I remember Einer
489
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.039
and I sitting on the floor in this little room
490
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:49.339
where they were, looking at every town that had Beach
491
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:52.460
in its name north of Florida. Which has to be
492
00:24:52.579 --> 00:24:55.539
hundreds of them. Well, it was an awful lot of them.
493
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.819
And we just divided them up and started calling. And interestingly,
494
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.789
if I had started at the other end of my list,
495
00:25:03.450 --> 00:25:06.700
I wouldn't have found them because I suddenly was talking
496
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:07.930
to someone in Highland Beach.
497
00:25:07.970 --> 00:25:09.970
I was calling all the mobile home places.
498
00:25:10.509 --> 00:25:13.029
And she said, oh, yes, the Whitesides pulled in here
499
00:25:13.069 --> 00:25:15.509
a couple of hours ago. So if I had called
500
00:25:15.549 --> 00:25:18.049
a couple of hours sooner, I wouldn't have found them.
501
00:25:18.509 --> 00:25:20.190
I didn't want to give them a chance to say
502
00:25:20.250 --> 00:25:22.190
no to me, that he wouldn't talk to me. So
503
00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:24.470
I jumped on a plane and went there and knocked
504
00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:28.369
on the door. And this big gentleman, as I recall,
505
00:25:28.410 --> 00:25:31.740
in an undershirt, you know, I came to you and
506
00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:33.500
I said, I'm Bob Carroll.
507
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:35.359
I'm writing biography of Lyndon Johnson.
508
00:25:35.539 --> 00:25:37.420
He said, oh, then you want to know about the
509
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:39.200
stolen elections in college.
510
00:25:39.269 --> 00:25:41.289
He said, come on in. And he just.
511
00:25:42.069 --> 00:25:43.190
What a dream come true.
512
00:25:43.289 --> 00:25:43.730
Yeah.
513
00:25:44.009 --> 00:25:45.569
Oh, you want to know about the time he stole
514
00:25:45.589 --> 00:25:49.029
an election in college? Come on in. Yeah. That's gold.
515
00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:53.359
And I just sat there and he filled in. and confirmed,
516
00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:55.940
you know, all the stories. But there was one other
517
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.099
thing that I thought you were going to mention. I
518
00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:01.819
know you know about this. So I'm calling this one woman,
519
00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:04.180
and she says, I don't know why you keep asking
520
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.339
these questions to me, Mr. Caro, or Mr. Cairo, as
521
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.220
they call him. It's all there in black and white.
522
00:26:11.259 --> 00:26:13.579
I said, all there in black and white where? She said,
523
00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:16.380
in the yearbook. It's all there, what we called him
524
00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:19.240
about the stolen elections, that we called him Bull Johnson.
525
00:26:19.619 --> 00:26:22.339
And I'll use the word. His name was Bull Johnson
526
00:26:22.420 --> 00:26:24.440
for bullshit. People just thought he was full of it.
527
00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:27.920
That was his nickname at college, Bullshit Johnson, the man
528
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:31.650
who later coined the credibility gap because no one could
529
00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:35.410
believe him on Vietnam. So I said, what pages are
530
00:26:35.450 --> 00:26:38.029
you talking about? And she got her yearbook, and she
531
00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:41.150
named five pages. So I had been through that yearbook
532
00:26:41.190 --> 00:26:43.799
several times without ever seeing this, and I looked. And
533
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:46.640
those pages were gone. And then you could see someone
534
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:49.599
had cut them out, you know, at the very spine
535
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:52.839
of the book, something very sharp, like a razor blade.
536
00:26:53.660 --> 00:26:56.130
And I said, boy, someone cut the, I looked, I
537
00:26:56.349 --> 00:26:59.630
found several other copies of the yearbook. The pages were missing.
538
00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:03.509
I finally found one that the pages were in. And
539
00:27:03.650 --> 00:27:07.289
all this documentation was there. And I remember thinking, what
540
00:27:07.329 --> 00:27:10.059
am I dealing with here? You know, I'm dealing with
541
00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:13.500
a human being who at the age of 21, was
542
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:16.789
so concerned about his reputation, or you could say his
543
00:27:16.910 --> 00:27:19.849
place to come in history, that he has cut out
544
00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:24.670
of hundreds of copies of his college yearbook, pages that
545
00:27:24.690 --> 00:27:25.380
were derogatory.
546
00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:26.460
They were making fun of him.
547
00:27:26.859 --> 00:27:27.680
More than fun.
548
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:31.660
Chronicling things that he did that made them not trust him.
549
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:32.119
Yeah.
550
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.509
And also, who steals a college election? I mean, that
551
00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:40.279
tells you so much about Lyndon Johnson in just that sentence.
552
00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:42.519
I stole an election in college.
553
00:27:42.819 --> 00:27:43.420
Yeah, yeah.
554
00:27:43.789 --> 00:27:46.089
And the reason that he did it tells a lot
555
00:27:46.130 --> 00:27:49.650
about Lyndon Johnson because— He had this eye, as he
556
00:27:49.690 --> 00:27:52.490
later had in the Senate, for what gives you power.
557
00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:55.670
You know, it's interesting because he learned early, if you
558
00:27:55.730 --> 00:27:58.180
really need to win an election, and it's crucial you
559
00:27:58.220 --> 00:28:00.200
win an election, you do what you have to do.
560
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.119
And you talk about this in one of your books.
561
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.299
He has a chance to run for Senate. And he realizes,
562
00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:09.440
I have just got to win. And it's going to
563
00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:12.480
be a very, very close election. but he doesn't take
564
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:15.480
any chances. And it was always, always rumored that he
565
00:28:15.500 --> 00:28:18.400
had stolen it, but there was no proof. And people said,
566
00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:20.519
you're never going to find proof because this is a
567
00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:22.619
guy that never put anything in writing. You're never going
568
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.529
to find it. You're never going to find the proof.
569
00:28:25.420 --> 00:28:28.599
And this is the part where, you know, if you're
570
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.740
listening and you are a fan of the show Breaking Bad,
571
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:35.069
this is the level of drama we're talking about. You
572
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.289
track down, there's a legendary guy, is it Luis Salas?
573
00:28:38.390 --> 00:28:38.609
Yes.
574
00:28:38.950 --> 00:28:42.490
Luis Salas is this legendary, almost, some people just call
575
00:28:42.509 --> 00:28:45.390
him Indio, which made me think of this show Breaking Bad.
576
00:28:45.869 --> 00:28:49.190
But he's this character that wears a gun on his hip.
577
00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:51.750
And the barrel is so long it goes down to
578
00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:56.029
his knee, and he's a big, tough guy. And people said, well, no,
579
00:28:56.089 --> 00:28:58.930
he's gone. You'll never find him. He was rumored to
580
00:28:58.970 --> 00:29:03.289
be the one who probably helped steal the election. You
581
00:29:03.390 --> 00:29:06.670
found him. You found him. He was alive.
582
00:29:06.690 --> 00:29:06.759
Yes.
583
00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:11.700
And when you found him, he was no longer the giant,
584
00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:16.700
you know, imposing guy named Indio who was mysterious. You
585
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:18.299
found a very different guy because it was much later
586
00:29:18.339 --> 00:29:18.680
in life.
587
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:21.019
Yeah, well, it took a long time because he had
588
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.759
killed a man in a barroom brawl in Durango.
589
00:29:23.829 --> 00:29:26.769
Well, we've all done that. Oh, my God. Mr. Carroll,
590
00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:28.970
we've all done that. That's how I had to get
591
00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:31.589
into television.
592
00:29:32.170 --> 00:29:36.130
And he was down in Mexico someplace. People kept telling
593
00:29:36.150 --> 00:29:39.049
me he was alive, but they don't know where he was.
594
00:29:39.069 --> 00:29:43.440
They used to say, Luis moves around a lot. People
595
00:29:43.460 --> 00:29:46.569
ask why my books take long. Let me tell you,
596
00:29:46.710 --> 00:29:51.130
trying to find a Mexican who moves around a lot,
597
00:29:51.769 --> 00:29:53.250
that's not a matter of hours.
598
00:29:53.470 --> 00:29:56.769
Right, right, right. And when you kill a man in Durango,
599
00:29:57.009 --> 00:29:59.019
you move around a lot.
600
00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:02.500
But I finally found he was actually back in Texas.
601
00:30:02.539 --> 00:30:04.900
He was living in a mobile home in the backyard
602
00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:08.220
of his daughter, Grace, in Houston. So I, again, I'm
603
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:09.990
not going to give him a chance to say, no,
604
00:30:10.349 --> 00:30:11.170
you won't talk to me.
605
00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:13.269
So I knock on the door. It was very funny.
606
00:30:13.430 --> 00:30:16.210
I expect, just like you said, that to be looking
607
00:30:16.349 --> 00:30:21.569
up at the 6'4 inch bruiser and this 84-year-old frail
608
00:30:21.630 --> 00:30:25.210
little old man opens the door. I'm looking down at him.
609
00:30:26.130 --> 00:30:28.309
But he wasn't just willing to talk to me. He
610
00:30:28.329 --> 00:30:30.990
was anxious to talk to me. And I hadn't been
611
00:30:31.049 --> 00:30:34.029
talking to him very long. You see, he was on
612
00:30:34.089 --> 00:30:37.990
the stand. There was a federal investigation into this election.
613
00:30:38.369 --> 00:30:41.589
He's on the stand, and the judge has just said
614
00:30:41.730 --> 00:30:44.529
something like, my memory has been not bad on this,
615
00:30:44.609 --> 00:30:48.079
but approximately, now we're going to open the ballot box
616
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.079
where you certified the votes.
617
00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:51.420
He was the election judge.
618
00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:53.299
Right, he's the key to the whole thing, yeah.
619
00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:54.579
He was the key to the whole thing.
620
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:57.839
At that moment, it's such a dramatic thing, you always
621
00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:00.880
think when you're writing it, you're exaggerating. A man runs
622
00:31:00.980 --> 00:31:03.349
into the courtroom with a piece of paper, and he says.
623
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:04.900
Supreme Court.
624
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.059
Justice Hugo Black has ordered this investigation stopped.
625
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:10.259
And in fact, it was never reopened again.
626
00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:13.440
So what was Louis Salas going to say when they
627
00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:16.480
opened this box and they asked about the 200 votes
628
00:31:16.529 --> 00:31:18.250
that were added to Johnson's total?
629
00:31:19.029 --> 00:31:21.589
And he says, you know, Robert, I have written it
630
00:31:21.690 --> 00:31:22.210
all down.
631
00:31:22.410 --> 00:31:26.329
And he goes over to this large brass-bound trunk in
632
00:31:26.349 --> 00:31:26.829
the corner.
633
00:31:27.349 --> 00:31:32.119
And he pulls out a 94-page manuscript. That he has written, he's.
634
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:36.140
Very bad on grammar and all, but he says he
635
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:39.240
wrote this for history. It's called Box 13. The name
636
00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:42.420
of this precinct is Box, they call them boxes in Texas,
637
00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:43.599
Box 13.
638
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:45.690
And it says exactly how he did it.
639
00:31:46.369 --> 00:31:48.769
So after I found that, I said, you know, I'm
640
00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:51.769
never going to have to write the same sentence that
641
00:31:51.890 --> 00:31:54.250
is in all these other books, that nobody will ever
642
00:31:54.369 --> 00:31:57.109
really know if Johnson stole it. I said, I can
643
00:31:57.150 --> 00:31:59.009
write the sentence, he stole it.
644
00:31:59.670 --> 00:31:59.819
Wow.
645
00:32:00.210 --> 00:32:03.289
And there's the person, I mean, telling you, I did it.
646
00:32:03.569 --> 00:32:04.009
In writing.
647
00:32:04.190 --> 00:32:04.490
In writing.
648
00:32:04.529 --> 00:32:05.150
Telling me in writing.
649
00:32:05.509 --> 00:32:08.170
So I said, you know, I said, well, what if
650
00:32:08.210 --> 00:32:11.309
he dies? What if he denies this? So I asked
651
00:32:11.329 --> 00:32:13.349
him this question. Your heart is in your throat. And
652
00:32:13.410 --> 00:32:16.670
I said, would you mind if we made a copy
653
00:32:16.710 --> 00:32:17.440
of this for me?
654
00:32:18.019 --> 00:32:19.059
And he says, sure.
655
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:21.940
And we went to a neighborhood convenience store, and we
656
00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:23.259
stood there while we copied it.
657
00:32:23.299 --> 00:32:25.619
I have it in a drawer in my desk to
658
00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:26.140
this day.
659
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:30.210
So he's the dream person. He's the dream find. Not
660
00:32:30.250 --> 00:32:33.220
only is he going to tell you, yes, I was there.
661
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.880
I knew Lyndon Johnson and I'm the one that stole
662
00:32:35.900 --> 00:32:38.710
the election for him. And there's a Kinko's down the street.
663
00:32:38.750 --> 00:32:39.529
We can make copies.
664
00:32:41.690 --> 00:32:43.450
You summed up one of the great moments.
665
00:32:45.750 --> 00:32:48.400
There's a moment where you're trying to understand what it
666
00:32:48.430 --> 00:32:53.400
was like for Lyndon Johnson when he first came to Washington, D.C.,
667
00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:56.400
and you really wanted to understand it. So you retraced
668
00:32:56.740 --> 00:32:59.470
how he would have walked to the Capitol building or
669
00:32:59.529 --> 00:33:01.589
to his office that was near the Capitol building and
670
00:33:02.029 --> 00:33:04.190
And you figured out what time of day he'd be
671
00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:08.009
walking there. And you wanted to see where the sun
672
00:33:08.089 --> 00:33:12.440
was so that you could really understand that feeling that
673
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:14.720
he would have and exactly what it looked like to him.
674
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.789
You're very methodical about the facts, but it's also key
675
00:33:18.869 --> 00:33:22.430
for you to in a novelistic sense almost, to put
676
00:33:22.470 --> 00:33:26.130
yourself there as a human being and see and feel
677
00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:26.849
what it's like.
678
00:33:27.210 --> 00:33:30.630
Well, you're very complimentary. I'm not sure I deserve all that.
679
00:33:30.950 --> 00:33:33.619
Well, you do, but it's nice that you don't think
680
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:34.420
you do, but you do.
681
00:33:34.619 --> 00:33:38.839
But the incident you're talking about was really a fascinating example.
682
00:33:39.609 --> 00:33:44.490
of what can come out of doing that. So Lyndon
683
00:33:44.529 --> 00:33:48.849
Johnson then lived in a little shabby hotel down near
684
00:33:49.210 --> 00:33:53.190
Union Station, and he'd walk up the hill to Capitol Hill,
685
00:33:53.329 --> 00:33:56.339
his office, and then he'd walk along the whole east
686
00:33:56.430 --> 00:33:58.519
front of the Capitol, which you know is as long
687
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.599
as two and a half football fields. It's 750 feet long.
688
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:05.319
I found the woman who worked in the office with him.
689
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:10.030
He's then, whatever, 22 years old. She's also a ranch girl,
690
00:34:10.070 --> 00:34:14.170
like he's a ranch boy. So they're getting up early
691
00:34:14.190 --> 00:34:16.309
in the morning, and she says, she's coming from the
692
00:34:16.369 --> 00:34:19.150
other direction. And she says, you know, the thing that
693
00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:21.409
got me, he'd walk up the hill, and as soon
694
00:34:21.449 --> 00:34:23.210
as he got in front of the Capitol, he'd start
695
00:34:23.289 --> 00:34:26.380
running as if he was very excited with his arms flapping.
696
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:30.360
He would run the length of the Capitol every morning.
697
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.920
She said, when it was at first, it was winter,
698
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:35.980
and he was very poor, so I knew he didn't
699
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:38.320
have a coat. So I thought he was running because
700
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.429
he was cold. But then she said to me, you know,
701
00:34:40.469 --> 00:34:43.150
then it turned warm in spring, and he was still running.
702
00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:45.849
So I said, I want to see, is there something
703
00:34:45.889 --> 00:34:47.849
that excited him, that made.
704
00:34:47.690 --> 00:34:48.769
Him run every morning?
705
00:34:49.769 --> 00:34:52.429
So I can't tell you how many times I walked
706
00:34:52.929 --> 00:34:56.019
that same road. I didn't see anything in particular that
707
00:34:56.059 --> 00:34:58.639
would excite him. Then I thought of something. You know, Bob,
708
00:34:58.820 --> 00:35:01.019
you never did it. He did it very early in
709
00:35:01.059 --> 00:35:03.019
the morning because they're ranch kids, so they.
710
00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:04.420
Get up with the sun. Mm-hmm.
711
00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:07.789
He did it at 5.30 or 6 o'clock in the morning.
712
00:35:07.829 --> 00:35:10.449
You've never done it then. I did it at some
713
00:35:10.489 --> 00:35:12.960
hour like that. And all of a sudden I felt
714
00:35:13.059 --> 00:35:15.760
I understood it because what happens is this is the
715
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.860
east front of the capital, the capital front that faces
716
00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:22.239
the east. The sun comes up, let's say, at 530.
717
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.860
So it's at full force. Its level rays hit this
718
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:32.739
entire long mass of white marble with its columns and
719
00:35:32.780 --> 00:35:37.929
its heroic figures above. And it's lit up like some gigantic,
720
00:35:38.090 --> 00:35:41.650
blazing white movie sets. And he said, of course he
721
00:35:41.690 --> 00:35:44.869
got excited. He's coming from this land of little log,
722
00:35:45.329 --> 00:35:49.300
dog-run cabins. And all of a sudden, he's seeing... This
723
00:35:49.389 --> 00:35:52.159
is what I can attain. This is the power of
724
00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:54.360
a sovereign state or whatever you want to say. I
725
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:57.340
can have this if I succeed up here. Of course
726
00:35:57.380 --> 00:35:58.199
he got excited.
727
00:35:58.260 --> 00:35:58.559
Yeah.
728
00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:03.219
It's cinematic. All that marble glowing, exciting this poor kid
729
00:36:03.260 --> 00:36:04.539
from the hill country.
730
00:36:05.539 --> 00:36:08.139
It excites and it's sort of thrilling to me to
731
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:08.480
see it.
732
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:12.980
Well, yeah. And you've captured that in the books. You
733
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.340
have all these people that are always anxious for the
734
00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:18.889
next book. Whenever you finish a book, And they love it,
735
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.239
and it's taken you nine, ten years. Of course, this
736
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:25.440
is the nature of human beings. Immediately, they want the
737
00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:29.619
next one. What have you done for me lately? Hey, Caro,
738
00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:33.269
that's great. I just finished it. It was 1,200 pages,
739
00:36:33.309 --> 00:36:36.409
and it was beautiful. Where's the next one? And you
740
00:36:36.429 --> 00:36:41.190
must encounter... Fans, people in New York, you and Ina
741
00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:43.829
are known people, and you're walking around, you're taking your
742
00:36:43.869 --> 00:36:45.969
walk in Central Park, you're trying to enjoy your lives,
743
00:36:46.010 --> 00:36:47.889
and people are wondering, why aren't you working right now?
744
00:36:48.699 --> 00:36:50.920
Do you have that effort? Do you have people trying
745
00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:52.579
to guilt you into, why are you out right now
746
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:53.380
having an ice cream?
747
00:36:54.460 --> 00:36:57.099
I don't think anyone tries to guilt me, but I
748
00:36:57.139 --> 00:37:01.989
do get asked an unfortunate number of times every day
749
00:37:02.010 --> 00:37:04.150
or week, you know, when is the next one coming?
750
00:37:04.489 --> 00:37:06.590
I'll tell you who never asks me, it's my publisher.
751
00:37:07.030 --> 00:37:10.530
My publishers never asked me, when is your book going
752
00:37:10.550 --> 00:37:13.039
to be done? When are you going to deliver? I've
753
00:37:13.059 --> 00:37:14.260
been very lucky that way.
754
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.760
Now, was your publisher happy that you took a break
755
00:37:16.780 --> 00:37:17.940
to do this book working?
756
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:19.460
No, he was furious.
757
00:37:20.909 --> 00:37:24.170
Not my editor. Your editor. Your editor just wants all
758
00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:26.840
things done. Look, we've got this big book on Johnson.
759
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.219
You've got to finish that. And you say, well, I'm
760
00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:33.280
working on something else right now. Yes. And that probably
761
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:34.829
irritates the editor.
762
00:37:35.309 --> 00:37:35.550
Yes.
763
00:37:36.070 --> 00:37:40.389
Yeah. But editors are fun to irritate sometimes. It's hard
764
00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:42.610
to have a conversation with someone like you and not
765
00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:45.940
think about what's happening today. And I'm sure you get
766
00:37:45.980 --> 00:37:48.059
asked this a lot, and none of us can really
767
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:50.800
know because we're living in this moment. None of us
768
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:53.780
really understand this moment, but it has occurred to me
769
00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:57.510
that there are incredible similarities between a Donald Trump and
770
00:37:57.550 --> 00:38:03.170
a Lyndon Johnson. A need to win, win at any cost, boastfulness, sometimes,
771
00:38:03.449 --> 00:38:06.159
you know, crude behavior. The list goes on and on.
772
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:09.519
Well, you know, I'm so buried in my own work
773
00:38:09.579 --> 00:38:10.119
right now.
774
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:10.519
Mm-hmm.
775
00:38:11.309 --> 00:38:14.250
That I'm not paying the kind of attention that I
776
00:38:14.670 --> 00:38:15.269
ought to pay.
777
00:38:15.469 --> 00:38:17.530
I mean, I read the paper every day. I follow
778
00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:18.590
it like everyone else.
779
00:38:18.809 --> 00:38:23.110
But I haven't really thought of the answers about what's
780
00:38:23.150 --> 00:38:24.909
going on right now.
781
00:38:24.969 --> 00:38:25.949
I think I told you.
782
00:38:25.849 --> 00:38:29.369
Last night, I think the really unfortunate thing from our
783
00:38:29.469 --> 00:38:32.230
point of view, my point of view anyway, is that
784
00:38:32.289 --> 00:38:36.969
people doubt that they're facts, that they're scientific facts. As
785
00:38:37.050 --> 00:38:40.670
I said, There is no one truth, but there are facts.
786
00:38:41.150 --> 00:38:46.889
And if democracy doesn't have, if people don't have facts
787
00:38:47.050 --> 00:38:49.530
that they can make a judgment on, whichever way their
788
00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:53.269
judgment is going to be, then what does it amount
789
00:38:53.369 --> 00:38:56.829
to that power comes from their casting votes at a
790
00:38:56.869 --> 00:39:00.119
ballot box? On what basis are they casting them? So
791
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:04.000
I think nothing is more serious than that. But the
792
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:07.460
fact is, When we talk about facts, fact is something
793
00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:09.719
that you may have heard, but you can prove it
794
00:39:09.860 --> 00:39:12.900
by something you find in, let's say, in the Johnson Papers.
795
00:39:13.019 --> 00:39:13.699
There it is.
796
00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:17.590
And that's what an informed electorate is, that they've informed
797
00:39:17.630 --> 00:39:21.130
themselves about facts. And that's the way it's been in
798
00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:24.489
our history. So now it's not starting to become, it
799
00:39:24.570 --> 00:39:27.869
has become something where facts are, as.
800
00:39:27.829 --> 00:39:29.090
You put it, relative.
801
00:39:29.730 --> 00:39:33.260
So there's... you say, so what is the power of democracy,
802
00:39:33.940 --> 00:39:37.440
the power of informed electorate? I think James Madison said
803
00:39:37.539 --> 00:39:41.019
something like, if people in a democracy want to have power,
804
00:39:41.260 --> 00:39:43.099
they have to know, I know.
805
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:44.599
He didn't say it this way, but this is what
806
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:44.940
he meant.
807
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.920
They have to have facts to base the power of
808
00:39:48.980 --> 00:39:52.780
their vote on And that seems to me not to
809
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:57.440
be fading, but to have faded. And I don't actually
810
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:03.239
think anything's more truly dangerous to the concept. If you
811
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:07.389
don't have an informed electorate, then what exactly is conferring
812
00:40:07.469 --> 00:40:08.610
power in this country?
813
00:40:09.269 --> 00:40:12.210
Yeah, that is showing, and this is something we can't
814
00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:14.059
know right now because we're right in the middle of it,
815
00:40:14.170 --> 00:40:17.280
but is Trump, There's two ways you can look at it.
816
00:40:17.570 --> 00:40:22.530
One is that he is this complete one-off. He's an anomaly.
817
00:40:22.949 --> 00:40:26.119
Or the other possibility, that this is the beginning of
818
00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:31.000
a new type of politician. Yes, you wonder, you know,
819
00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:33.519
in terms, you could say, of Rome.
820
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:38.059
Is he an aberration in the long line of Roman emperors?
821
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:39.159
Or is he the first.
822
00:40:41.059 --> 00:40:44.619
In a different line of Roman emperors like Caligula and Nero.
823
00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:47.760
We don't know that right now. I think we're right
824
00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:49.769
to be scared about it, to tell you the truth.
825
00:40:50.369 --> 00:40:54.349
But the fact is we don't know. Sorry to use
826
00:40:54.369 --> 00:40:55.210
the word fact again.
827
00:40:55.550 --> 00:40:58.750
Yeah, yeah. How dare you? But that's your fact, man.
828
00:40:58.809 --> 00:41:00.230
That's not my fact.
829
00:41:00.550 --> 00:41:03.340
But we really don't know the answer now.
830
00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:05.360
Yeah. And I'd like to point out to everybody that
831
00:41:05.420 --> 00:41:08.320
Caligula is the one who made his horse a senator.
832
00:41:08.659 --> 00:41:13.920
That is something that In the current administration. Sounds probable.
833
00:41:13.940 --> 00:41:15.519
I'm waiting to hear where you go from there. I'm
834
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:18.159
just going to say, like, you look at some of
835
00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:23.960
the appointees and you think I'd take a horse. You
836
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:25.989
almost did a spit take. You took some coffee. You
837
00:41:26.449 --> 00:41:28.409
almost got Robert Caro to do a spit take. Now,
838
00:41:28.429 --> 00:41:29.949
there are a couple of his appointees where I'd say,
839
00:41:29.969 --> 00:41:34.750
can we get a horse in there instead? Maybe Caligula
840
00:41:34.809 --> 00:41:38.929
had the right idea. I do worry. You're such a
841
00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:42.789
hard worker. And I left this event last night. I
842
00:41:42.849 --> 00:41:46.190
left it late. And then we are taping this very
843
00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:48.829
early in the morning. You got here before I did.
844
00:41:50.269 --> 00:41:53.170
I'm a whippersnapper. You got here before I did. And
845
00:41:54.050 --> 00:41:56.530
I thought to myself, they're working this guy too hard.
846
00:41:57.849 --> 00:42:00.849
I don't feel tired. You don't feel tired. Okay, well,
847
00:42:00.869 --> 00:42:02.849
you're on something. I'll find out what it is. You
848
00:42:02.869 --> 00:42:05.949
know what Sam Rayburn said? He said, never say you're tired.
849
00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:09.480
Because then you start feeling sorry for yourself. And if
850
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:12.500
you start feeling sorry for yourself, you're finished.
851
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:13.559
Wow.
852
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:20.119
That's fantastic. I feel sorry for myself all the time.
853
00:42:22.150 --> 00:42:23.889
I think I just thought of a really good prank
854
00:42:23.969 --> 00:42:28.639
for your publisher. which is call your publisher up and say,
855
00:42:28.659 --> 00:42:33.429
I'm done with the working tour, and I was going
856
00:42:33.449 --> 00:42:35.829
to get back to work on Lyndon Johnson, but I
857
00:42:35.869 --> 00:42:38.750
just had a quick inspiration. I'm just going to spend
858
00:42:38.789 --> 00:42:41.369
a year or two on a biography of Conan O'Brien.
859
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:48.639
I'll let you know how it goes. I'm imagining heart
860
00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:52.019
attacks could be involved. He really seems like a fantastic,
861
00:42:52.300 --> 00:42:54.800
interesting character, and I want to go live in Brookline,
862
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:57.929
Massachusetts and talk to people who knew him and find
863
00:42:57.989 --> 00:43:00.570
out what kind of ruthless cad this guy was. That'd
864
00:43:00.590 --> 00:43:04.289
be a fun prank, and I would enjoy it. I think...
865
00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:08.489
I have held you here long enough against your will.
866
00:43:09.699 --> 00:43:14.659
I reiterate to anyone listening, do yourself a favor. You
867
00:43:14.699 --> 00:43:17.480
can get Working. It's out there right now. If you're
868
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.219
interested in writing and the writing process, and it's a
869
00:43:20.260 --> 00:43:23.679
terrific read, it's Working by Robert Caro. And do yourself
870
00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:26.320
another favor. If you have not checked out the Lyndon
871
00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:29.980
Johnson books, start with Path to Power, and you will
872
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:36.440
be enthralled. Or The Power Broker about Robert Moses. It's just,
873
00:43:37.340 --> 00:43:41.079
I think, the best biographical writing of our time or
874
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:42.639
any time. I really believe that.
875
00:43:43.300 --> 00:43:43.719
Thank you.
876
00:43:44.059 --> 00:43:48.239
But again, I'm a comedian, so I have no. None
877
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:51.019
of this means anything. I hate to break it to you.
878
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.460
Thank you so much for doing this. It's just one
879
00:43:54.500 --> 00:43:56.000
of the great honors of my life. Thank you.
880
00:43:56.219 --> 00:43:57.219
It was great to be here.
881
00:43:58.389 --> 00:44:00.150
You know if you're a young adult aged 19 to
882
00:44:00.150 --> 00:44:03.699
25 or a full-time third-level student, you can get half-price
883
00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:05.760
public transport with a TFI LeapCard.
884
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Sounds complex.
885
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:09.860
No, it's simple. 50% off journeys.
886
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:11.119
So.
887
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:12.500
So more money in.
888
00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:13.820
Your pocket for things you like doing.
889
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.019
Because I've saved 50% on fares?
890
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:18.340
Yes, you've got it.
891
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.960
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892
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893
00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:24.820
at leapcard.ie.
894
00:44:25.179 --> 00:44:26.619
Brought to you by Transport for Ireland.
895
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:34.840
It's time for another segment of voicemails.
896
00:44:35.059 --> 00:44:38.050
And I wanted to do this one, especially in Sona's defense,
897
00:44:38.280 --> 00:44:41.250
because do you remember the voicemails we did where someone
898
00:44:41.269 --> 00:44:43.809
called in and said that you were mispronouncing Freddie Mercury?
899
00:44:43.989 --> 00:44:47.650
Yes. Yeah, I remember. And then I walked in and
900
00:44:47.690 --> 00:44:50.690
talked about my hard G's. You have hard G's. It's
901
00:44:50.710 --> 00:44:54.199
not your fault. We were raised, but your G's are
902
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.949
very hard. Very hard. Yes. And do you remember he
903
00:44:58.010 --> 00:45:00.920
said that he never mispronounces anything? Yes. I really don't.
904
00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:04.780
Hey, Will, could you play voicemail number 17?
905
00:45:04.780 --> 00:45:07.179
How do you not call this out?
906
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:11.340
Conan says, Saturday Night Live. Saturday Night Live.
907
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:18.469
Not Saturday Night Live. Sunday Night. Jesus Christ. First of all,
908
00:45:18.530 --> 00:45:21.690
I worked there. I guess this guy also worked there.
909
00:45:22.170 --> 00:45:23.820
I don't think he did. Oh, you don't think he did?
910
00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:28.139
I'm assuming if he's correcting my pronunciation of Saturday Night Live, then...
911
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.139
It's true. It's true. He just did it? Yeah. Because
912
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:35.780
I worked on... Can I just explain for a second here?
913
00:45:36.219 --> 00:45:39.750
All right? Because I'm in the right here. Everyone who
914
00:45:39.809 --> 00:45:44.050
works at SNL, when they say it for real, they
915
00:45:44.070 --> 00:45:46.809
call it Saturday Night Live. That is a thing that
916
00:45:46.849 --> 00:45:49.130
we do. That is like we're in the club. People
917
00:45:49.170 --> 00:45:51.820
who are outside the show, who have never worked there,
918
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:56.050
call it Saturday Night Live. Ask anybody who's ever worked there,
919
00:45:56.110 --> 00:45:57.789
where'd you work? And they'll say, Saturday Night Live. I
920
00:45:57.809 --> 00:45:59.570
don't buy this. I don't buy this for a second.
921
00:45:59.889 --> 00:46:03.409
It's true. And I will tell you why few people
922
00:46:03.469 --> 00:46:07.329
know this, but Lorne Michaels, who created the show, is
923
00:46:07.530 --> 00:46:10.829
famously from Toronto, but people don't know that he was
924
00:46:10.929 --> 00:46:15.429
born in Louisiana and grew up there as a little child.
925
00:46:16.349 --> 00:46:19.139
And so he has a little bit of a Southern
926
00:46:19.179 --> 00:46:22.659
Louisiana twang. Okay. So when Lorne called me up and
927
00:46:22.699 --> 00:46:24.760
asked if I'd like to be a writer— There, he said,
928
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.699
would you like to come join us on Saturday Night Live? No. Oh,
929
00:46:27.739 --> 00:46:32.230
my God. This is an absolutely true story. No. No,
930
00:46:32.590 --> 00:46:34.570
I swear to God. Now, you're not going to hear
931
00:46:34.590 --> 00:46:37.670
this a lot. Oh, my God. No, no, listen. If
932
00:46:37.690 --> 00:46:39.639
you talk to Lorne, it only comes out when he
933
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:42.440
says Saturday Night Live. And sometimes... He says, would you
934
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.679
like to join me? Because, you know, mostly he talks
935
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.340
like this and it's like that. But then whenever he
936
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:48.980
says the name of the show, he goes and it's
937
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.530
just his old Louisiana roots coming out. But he says,
938
00:46:51.590 --> 00:46:53.429
you know, we had a really good time and Chevy
939
00:46:53.449 --> 00:46:55.349
Chase was there and it was really good. Sorry, not laugh.
940
00:46:55.829 --> 00:46:59.010
And no, this is true. This is true. And then
941
00:46:59.070 --> 00:47:01.489
I'll tell you something else. Every now and then it
942
00:47:01.550 --> 00:47:04.739
comes out. If he offers you something to drink, he'll
943
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.000
say like, you know, would you like some wine? Would
944
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:09.500
you like maybe some bourbon? Or would you, you know,
945
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.300
would you like a gin and tonic? Or would you
946
00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:14.130
like a, would you like a sweet tea? He does,
947
00:47:14.190 --> 00:47:16.389
he says sweet tea. I gotta go. So those are,
948
00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:19.789
these are all real things. So first of all, that guy,
949
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.539
can get on his go-fuck-yourself horse. Well, it's not just
950
00:47:24.579 --> 00:47:27.420
that guy. Will, can you play number 23 as well? Oh,
951
00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:28.239
I like this.
952
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:31.840
Conan, it's Renee calling, and I think you need to
953
00:47:31.940 --> 00:47:37.789
talk about the very funny way you pronounce Saturday Night Live.
954
00:47:37.969 --> 00:47:41.929
Oh, my God. In a way I can't quite explain,
955
00:47:42.690 --> 00:47:46.210
but just listen to it, and then it would be
956
00:47:46.269 --> 00:47:48.239
helpful if you would explain that.
957
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:48.449
Yeah.
958
00:47:48.469 --> 00:47:51.059
It sounds more like Saturday night.
959
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:53.190
I can't do it.
960
00:47:53.550 --> 00:47:57.050
It's not Saturday night talk. She's not from Louisiana. Something else.
961
00:47:57.090 --> 00:47:59.179
When can I talk? Because this is a waste of time.
962
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:00.980
I think Dana Harvey might do it.
963
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:01.280
Yeah.
964
00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:01.639
But anyway.
965
00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:03.829
Listen to how you say it. Yeah.
966
00:48:04.110 --> 00:48:04.849
And help me understand it.
967
00:48:04.909 --> 00:48:06.809
When can I talk? When is this stupid thing over?
968
00:48:06.829 --> 00:48:10.260
Let Renee finish. Let Renee finish. Okay. Well, this is
969
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:14.380
just infuriating because, first of all, did you notice that
970
00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:17.460
she just said Dana Carvey does it too? Yeah. Do
971
00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:19.929
you know why Dana Carvey does it too? Because he's
972
00:48:20.070 --> 00:48:20.860
in the club.
973
00:48:21.150 --> 00:48:21.449
Okay.
974
00:48:21.690 --> 00:48:25.429
We are a small society of select individuals who worked
975
00:48:25.510 --> 00:48:26.190
on Saturday Night Live.
976
00:48:26.710 --> 00:48:27.570
Oh my God.
977
00:48:28.130 --> 00:48:28.369
And look.
978
00:48:28.969 --> 00:48:32.510
This is so dumb. It is not dumb. So you
979
00:48:32.530 --> 00:48:34.760
can play, I don't understand Gorley, if I can call
980
00:48:34.780 --> 00:48:37.840
you Gorley. It's my name. Well, is it though a name?
981
00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:41.139
Oh my God, what is Gorley? I got a case
982
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:43.530
of the Gorleys. Sounds like I have a- I don't know.
983
00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:44.590
We can't get into it right now.
984
00:48:44.610 --> 00:48:45.389
It's some kind of a rash.
985
00:48:46.789 --> 00:48:51.349
Your leg's gone gory on you. Listen, when challenged, I
986
00:48:51.389 --> 00:48:54.230
lash out like any animal. You do? You really do.
987
00:48:54.530 --> 00:48:56.889
And when not challenged. And when not challenged, I lash
988
00:48:56.949 --> 00:49:00.920
out even more like a really sick animal. You can
989
00:49:00.980 --> 00:49:03.500
play as many people as you want. I see what
990
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:06.980
you're saying. But it doesn't change the fact that Lorne
991
00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:13.000
Michaels was born in Louisiana and he invented... Saturday Night Live.
992
00:49:13.579 --> 00:49:16.260
And I'm happy to take these questions and give you
993
00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:17.840
the answers, but if you guys are then going to
994
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:19.340
sit around and say fake news.
995
00:49:20.139 --> 00:49:22.199
I'm going to sit right here and say fake news
996
00:49:22.219 --> 00:49:23.179
because I'm on the web.
997
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.179
And Lorne Michaels was born in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
998
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:26.820
Yeah.
999
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:29.639
You don't think Lorne has the ability and the power.
1000
00:49:29.659 --> 00:49:31.219
We're talking about one of the most powerful people in
1001
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:33.960
the business. Lorne likes the myth that he came down
1002
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:34.619
from the north.
1003
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:35.639
Okay.
1004
00:49:35.780 --> 00:49:40.500
Okay. And he loves this whole concept that he descended
1005
00:49:40.579 --> 00:49:43.280
from the north. It's It's very Game of Thrones. He
1006
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:47.929
came from the north. He came down to House Lannister,
1007
00:49:48.070 --> 00:49:51.670
and he came down south, and winter's coming, and the wall.
1008
00:49:51.869 --> 00:49:54.389
That's all very Lorne. It's all very Lorne mythology. House
1009
00:49:54.449 --> 00:49:57.869
Lannister is not up north. Oh, I see. You didn't
1010
00:49:57.909 --> 00:50:00.449
read the books. You're going off the TV show. Okay,
1011
00:50:00.469 --> 00:50:02.929
that's fine. But anyway, the point is this. No, no, no.
1012
00:50:02.949 --> 00:50:04.230
It's all right, Gorley. We'll do it your way, and
1013
00:50:04.250 --> 00:50:06.269
if that's even a real name. But my point is,
1014
00:50:07.730 --> 00:50:10.469
and I want to make this point sincerely— Lorne doesn't
1015
00:50:10.570 --> 00:50:15.590
want people knowing he's from Louisiana. I see. Do the math. Okay,
1016
00:50:16.250 --> 00:50:16.690
all right.
1017
00:50:16.849 --> 00:50:19.949
I just don't understand why him calling it Saturday Night Live,
1018
00:50:19.969 --> 00:50:20.769
if this is your exclamation.
1019
00:50:20.789 --> 00:50:21.489
Out of respect for Lorne.
1020
00:50:21.510 --> 00:50:23.869
He invented the show. So you just changed the way
1021
00:50:23.929 --> 00:50:27.380
you pronounce Saturday? Well, I'm going to tell you something.
1022
00:50:27.389 --> 00:50:28.800
He calls it Saturday Night Live.
1023
00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:29.300
And you know what?
1024
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:33.679
I'm sorry if you don't understand the concept of respecting
1025
00:50:33.739 --> 00:50:36.559
your boss. But you also are now doing it differently.
1026
00:50:36.579 --> 00:50:39.679
You're not saying Saturday Night Live. You're saying Saturday Night Live.
1027
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:43.230
You're getting really, like, I don't know what's happening. You're scatting.
1028
00:50:43.449 --> 00:50:45.670
I'm saying it exactly the way it should be said,
1029
00:50:45.710 --> 00:50:47.949
Saturday Night Live. And sometimes I play around with it
1030
00:50:47.969 --> 00:50:49.690
a little bit because I'm a jazz artist. I see.
1031
00:50:49.730 --> 00:50:52.139
And you know that I'm a big jazz fan and
1032
00:50:52.179 --> 00:50:53.519
I play a lot of jazz in my spare time.
1033
00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:53.880
Yeah.
1034
00:50:54.059 --> 00:50:54.360
So.
1035
00:50:54.380 --> 00:50:58.119
Okay. What's the matter? Never played jazz. You haven't seen
1036
00:50:58.139 --> 00:50:58.659
me play jazz.
1037
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:00.639
I don't know if this, I don't know what's happening,
1038
00:51:01.090 --> 00:51:03.670
but you can't pronounce Saturday Night Live properly.
1039
00:51:03.929 --> 00:51:07.250
That's what this is. No. And you are reaching. Guess what?
1040
00:51:07.530 --> 00:51:11.610
You just proved you can't pronounce Saturday Night Live correctly.
1041
00:51:11.630 --> 00:51:13.250
I guess I'm not part of the club. I didn't
1042
00:51:13.269 --> 00:51:16.809
work there. So I pronounce it like everybody else would
1043
00:51:16.849 --> 00:51:18.909
pronounce it. Oh, you didn't work there. Saturday Night Live.
1044
00:51:18.949 --> 00:51:21.230
I'm sorry, because you were correcting my pronunciation.
1045
00:51:21.289 --> 00:51:21.610
I'm sorry.
1046
00:51:21.630 --> 00:51:24.860
I thought you weren't there. Oh. No, no, I was
1047
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.320
wondering what years you were there. Did you have a character? Oh,
1048
00:51:27.340 --> 00:51:29.539
that's right. You did French character. Do your French character.
1049
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:31.360
I'm not going to do my French character. Do your
1050
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:34.340
valley girl. I'm sober. Do your valley girl. No, I'm
1051
00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:36.179
completely sober right now.
1052
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:38.760
Those come out when I'm... What.
1053
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:42.800
The heck was that? That was fascinating. That actually was great. Hey, Will,
1054
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:44.400
what was that? Those are the chimes of truth. Because
1055
00:51:44.420 --> 00:51:46.059
you were asking me for my character. Will, what was that?
1056
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:48.610
Are you having a massage back there? I thought I.
1057
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:50.699
Had do not disturb on this laptop.
1058
00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:54.989
Oh, wait, so you're the guy that lectures us. Like
1059
00:51:55.010 --> 00:51:57.869
we're children about to put your phone on airplane mode.
1060
00:51:58.250 --> 00:51:58.989
That's terrific.
1061
00:51:59.010 --> 00:52:02.809
You're lashing out at everybody right now. You are so
1062
00:52:02.969 --> 00:52:05.730
angry that someone called you out for pronouncing a word
1063
00:52:05.789 --> 00:52:09.139
incorrectly because you call me out all the time.
1064
00:52:09.860 --> 00:52:14.119
And now you're yelling at Will. You're calling Gourley a disease.
1065
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:17.139
I am not.
1066
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:21.530
You're asking me when I worked at Saturday Night Live. I.
1067
00:52:23.219 --> 00:52:32.199
I hate to be criticized for being right. I don't
1068
00:52:32.219 --> 00:52:34.000
like to make you guys feel bad that we're in
1069
00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:36.639
a special cool club that calls it Saturday Night Live.
1070
00:52:37.340 --> 00:52:38.119
I appreciate that.
1071
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:42.179
And that concludes another episode of Canin O'Brien Needs a Friend.
1072
00:52:43.099 --> 00:52:47.130
You know, you work here at my pleasure. You work here.
1073
00:52:47.150 --> 00:52:49.059
I work here at your dismay. I.
1074
00:52:52.230 --> 00:52:54.949
You know, if I wanted you gone, Gorley, it would
1075
00:52:55.050 --> 00:53:00.119
take maybe 35 phone calls. And then I'm sure there'd
1076
00:53:00.139 --> 00:53:01.739
be a few months and then there'd be paperwork. But
1077
00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:04.539
eventually you'd be gone because I absolutely you may have
1078
00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:07.380
already started that. No, no, I really I don't know
1079
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:11.639
how this podcast works. Can I just put something else
1080
00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:13.650
out there? And I'm not reaching for pity here. I
1081
00:53:13.690 --> 00:53:14.150
really not.
1082
00:53:14.170 --> 00:53:14.670
Oh, boy.
1083
00:53:15.309 --> 00:53:17.210
If you don't believe, and it is an absolutely true
1084
00:53:17.230 --> 00:53:19.389
story about Lauren being from Louisiana and it being a
1085
00:53:19.409 --> 00:53:21.190
secret club and people in the know calling it Saturday
1086
00:53:21.210 --> 00:53:24.630
Night Live. But if you don't believe that, consider the
1087
00:53:24.650 --> 00:53:30.400
possibility that I have a neurological ailment. Listen, I know,
1088
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:34.320
and I want to make something clear here, that I
1089
00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:37.559
grew up in a large family and I developed a
1090
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:39.780
little bit of a teasing, rough and tumble style with
1091
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:45.860
my siblings and But I don't want it misunderstood. You know, Sona,
1092
00:53:45.980 --> 00:53:48.440
you know that I love you. I think you're fantastic.
1093
00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:51.320
We've been friends, besties for a long time. You're the
1094
00:53:51.380 --> 00:53:55.840
second older brother I never wanted. Exactly. And Gorley, you
1095
00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:58.510
know that I respect you. You do a great job
1096
00:53:58.530 --> 00:54:03.329
with the podcast. And I'm one day committed to learning
1097
00:54:03.349 --> 00:54:07.250
your first name. I know that that's a process that
1098
00:54:07.289 --> 00:54:09.190
takes a while. But I'm going to look into it
1099
00:54:09.230 --> 00:54:12.090
and I'll find out, hunt it down. But I don't
1100
00:54:12.110 --> 00:54:13.829
want anyone out there listening to think I really don't,
1101
00:54:13.849 --> 00:54:16.449
you know, I don't like these people or that I
1102
00:54:16.489 --> 00:54:20.280
want to give them a hard time. That's my way
1103
00:54:20.300 --> 00:54:24.199
of communicating. And I just want people out there to
1104
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:26.239
know how much both of these people mean to me
1105
00:54:27.059 --> 00:54:29.440
and know that this is all. Yes.
1106
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:30.280
What is it, Sona?
1107
00:54:30.710 --> 00:54:32.579
I was waiting. Yeah, I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the.
1108
00:54:32.829 --> 00:54:34.909
The hammer is going to. The thing. Oh, you think
1109
00:54:34.949 --> 00:54:36.380
a hammer is going to fall? Yeah, I think there's
1110
00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:38.900
going to be a thing following. There's always a thing following.
1111
00:54:39.179 --> 00:54:39.960
I was being sincere.
1112
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:41.559
But do you think now that we called him out
1113
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:44.000
that he was going to drop the hammer? But then
1114
00:54:44.099 --> 00:54:45.599
once we said that, he's going to take the high
1115
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:47.139
road and say, no, I was being sincere.
1116
00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:51.239
Yeah, because every time he compliments, you're like, it sounds sincere.
1117
00:54:51.300 --> 00:54:55.440
And then it's followed by something that is just really
1118
00:54:55.460 --> 00:54:56.280
just painful.
1119
00:54:56.400 --> 00:55:01.199
No, no. I sincerely respect both of you and I
1120
00:55:01.489 --> 00:55:03.289
love the work that you do with me here on
1121
00:55:03.329 --> 00:55:05.829
this podcast. And I think we make a great trio.
1122
00:55:06.309 --> 00:55:09.010
And that's all there is to say on that subject.
1123
00:55:09.070 --> 00:55:12.090
And then you'll say like the 30 percent you give
1124
00:55:12.130 --> 00:55:13.590
this job is really valued.
1125
00:55:13.590 --> 00:55:15.769
30 percent is a little high. And if it weren't
1126
00:55:15.789 --> 00:55:18.900
for your beard, Matt, we'd so and so. Yeah.
1127
00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:19.239
Wow.
1128
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:20.920
You really, it's a good thing you're not in the
1129
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:27.090
business of insulting yourself. That was pretty lame. Well, it
1130
00:55:27.110 --> 00:55:30.050
just goes to show it's not my character. I like
1131
00:55:30.090 --> 00:55:33.360
to build people. You like to build people up by playing.
1132
00:55:34.710 --> 00:55:39.150
You're on a hunt. You're on a constant search. No.
1133
00:55:39.349 --> 00:55:43.099
Constant search for voicemails of someone who can criticize me.
1134
00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:46.320
There are very, very few, but oh, you'll find them,
1135
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:52.219
said the kindly Gorley. Will, could you play number five? Hey, Conan.
1136
00:55:52.989 --> 00:55:53.769
My name's Kyle.
1137
00:55:53.809 --> 00:55:55.670
I'm sitting here with my friend Alex, and we're just
1138
00:55:55.690 --> 00:56:01.710
having a conversation about cavemen and people with abnormally large skulls.
1139
00:56:02.409 --> 00:56:05.639
And I thought, you know what? Let me Google the
1140
00:56:05.739 --> 00:56:09.719
exact phrase, man with big skull. And I don't know
1141
00:56:09.739 --> 00:56:12.360
how to tell you this, but a picture of you
1142
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:15.980
comes up in the image results. And I feel like
1143
00:56:16.019 --> 00:56:16.719
that's something.
1144
00:56:16.460 --> 00:56:19.179
You might want to know. You have a good day now.
1145
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.139
I am not offended at all because having a large
1146
00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:28.949
cranial vault, I'm flattered. And I'll say it again, a
1147
00:56:29.130 --> 00:56:33.449
large cranial vault. It's a sign of intelligence. So maybe
1148
00:56:33.550 --> 00:56:36.579
this is proof that I'm the most highly evolved person
1149
00:56:36.860 --> 00:56:40.719
of our species. Anyone buying this? Can I get that water?
1150
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:47.750
I'm so thirsty. Thank you. Listen, I hope we cleared
1151
00:56:47.769 --> 00:56:50.150
some stuff up today. We do. Let me just quickly recap.
1152
00:56:50.570 --> 00:56:52.510
It's pronounced sad, not laugh. And also I have a
1153
00:56:52.530 --> 00:56:54.289
large skull. I think that's what we're learning.
1154
00:56:54.650 --> 00:56:54.869
Yeah.
1155
00:56:55.409 --> 00:56:58.280
A large skull, but it's proportional to my very large body.
1156
00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:01.980
All of my limbs and various parts are. Quite oversized.
1157
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:02.980
Let's get that out there.
1158
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:04.440
I know.
1159
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:08.940
What? Can you recap the part where you complimented us? Yeah. No,
1160
00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:09.610
I think we got it.
1161
00:57:12.690 --> 00:57:16.210
Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend with Sonam Ovsessian and Conan
1162
00:57:16.250 --> 00:57:20.650
O'Brien as himself. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced
1163
00:57:20.690 --> 00:57:23.619
by Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco and
1164
00:57:23.699 --> 00:57:27.219
Chris Bannon and Colin Anderson at Earwolf. Special thanks to
1165
00:57:27.260 --> 00:57:28.019
Jack White for.
1166
00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:30.860
The theme song. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino.
1167
00:57:33.210 --> 00:57:35.889
Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and the show is
1168
00:57:35.929 --> 00:57:38.530
engineered by Will Becton. You can rate and review this
1169
00:57:38.570 --> 00:57:41.199
show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review
1170
00:57:41.239 --> 00:57:44.019
featured on a future episode. Got a question for Conan?
1171
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:50.219
Call the Team Coco hotline at 323-451-2821 and leave a message. It, too,
1172
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.639
could be featured on a future episode. And if you
1173
00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:55.780
haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend
1174
00:57:56.059 --> 00:58:04.389
on Apple Podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are downloaded. This
1175
00:58:04.449 --> 00:58:09.190
has been a Team Coco production in association with Earwolf.
1176
00:58:16.170 --> 00:58:18.530
You know if you're a young adult aged 19 to
1177
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