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I'm Gabrielle Sinclair and this is Communio Calling.
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Today on Communio Calling, we have Paul O'Shea, who is the Dean of Mission for Rose Bank College, and we have Fran Feller, who is the program coordinator for Good Samaritan Education.
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So today we're going to be talking about Polding, John B.
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Polding, one of the co-founders of the Sisters of the Good Samaritan of the Order of St.
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Benedict.
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But let's just jump in.
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We've got lots to discuss, so let's go.
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Well, welcome.
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Today we have with us Fran Bella and Paul O'Shea.
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And as you might know, our podcast, Communio Calling, is intentionally grounded in sharing story as part of honouring the fabric of our connection, our incarnational reality and the expression of diversity of who we are.
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So let's start with Story.
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Fran, would you like to tell us a bit about your story, the influences and your family growing up, and perhaps when you first encountered the Good Sands?
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Sure.
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Thanks, Gabriel, and thanks for inviting me on today.
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I've had an awareness of St.
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Benedict most of my life.
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I don't remember it, but my first encounter with the charism came when I was baptised at St.
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Benedict's Church, which was part of St.
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Gertrude's Parish in Smithville in southwestern Sydney when I was only three weeks old.
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So growing up at St.
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Gertrude's Parish was very much a central part of life for our family.
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It was part of a growing European community made up of predominantly Italian and Maltese migrants and their families.
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Both my parents are from Malta and quite faithful Catholics.
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So St.
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Gertrude's Parish, as you can tell from the great Benedictine Saints name, was um was run by St.
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Benedictine priests of the Silvestrine congregation.
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And when there was a need to build a new church, as the parish was growing in the 1970s, they naturally dedicated it to St.
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Benedict once again.
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So attending mass weekly was a compulsory activity for everybody in the Vela family.
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I grew up with an awareness of St.
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Benedict.
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I'm not sure if I really knew a lot about him, but an awareness of St.
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Benedict and some of the Benedictine saints, like St.
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Gertrude and Saint Sylvester.
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And the awareness came from the stained glass windows in the church.
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The stained glass windows were quite dramatic.
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They're probably about five or six metres in length, the height of them, quite tall.
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And just gazing at those windows, you know, there were windows of St.
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Benedict, Saint Sylvester, Saint Gertrude, and just looking at them and just pondering on who they were.
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And spent many years doing that as a youngster.
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Very good.
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There's also a great mosaic of Saint Benedict behind the altar.
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And I spent many years looking at that mosaic.
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And so this great, great mosaic with the words aura at labora.
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And luckily they had the English translation, pray and work underneath it.
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So I understood what that meant.
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But it was just immersed in the Benedictine Saints, just through colour and through art.
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It was terrific.
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But what this church also had was a magnificent window dedicated to Paulding.
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So it was the first time an understanding of who Paulding was.
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Now, apparently, Paulding had a great presence in Smithfield, which is this smallish suburb, which was developing at the time.
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And my understanding is that he used a ride to Liverpool to minister and to teach catechesis around Liverpool, but he'd always stop at a house in Smithfield for a cup of tea.
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So he had a quite presence there.
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Oh, that's wonderful.
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Well, I mean, we'll talk more about polling later, Brad, but more about you.
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So you said your parents were both remote.
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So does that mean you're first generation Australian?
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First generation.
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So education was quite important for my parents.
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I really were interested in a good education.
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And part of a good definition of good education was it had to be Catholic.
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So off I went to St.
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Gertrude's primary school again.
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Saints were present there in the charism.
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But then I went along to a Murray sister school for my secondary schooling.
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And I absolutely loved it.
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It was just such a wonderful experience with the Murrah sisters.
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And I think it's there, particularly in my senior years, where I decided that I love this so much.
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I think I could do this for a living.
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And I decided to become a teacher.
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But it was also, I think, in my senior years where I began to earn my own faith.
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It wasn't the compulsory activity that it had been years before.
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And from that, I decided that I'd go to ACU, complete a Bachelor of Education, and study religious studies and history as my two majors.
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Yeah, wonderful.
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And that's where I had my first encounter with the Good Samaritan Sisters, because I had a few lecturers who were Good Samaritan Sisters, quite strong, independent, and great teachers there.
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So that was my first encounter with the Good Samaritan Sisters.
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Oh, thanks, Fran.
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Such a rich history there.
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Paul, how about you?
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Can you tell us a bit about your growing up, your family, and the influences in your early life, and then where it's led you today?
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Okay, well, a very different story to Fran.
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I come from a line of Irish Catholic background, and I grew up in central western New South Wales in St.
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Bridget's Parish, Dubbo, and I went to school there, and I was taught by the Delasalle brothers and the Sisters of Mercy.
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So my religious formation grew up in rural New South Wales, very minimalist, I suppose, liturgical style, but with a very strong sense of community and of belonging.
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And out of that, through getting to know of our parish priests and some of the sisters quite well, they introduced me to the liturgy of the hours.
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And that's been one of the mainstays of my spiritual life ever since, which is a roundabout way of saying that, in a sense, that love of liturgy came through those inspirational men and women that I met growing up.
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I was an altar boy, a server, a reader, and uh a part-time parish organist.
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So I was pretty much involved in parish life.
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My first contact with the Good Sam's really didn't come until I started working at Rosebank in 2011.
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So I've come to the Good Sam and the Benedictine story much later in life.
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I spent a lot of time with the Theresian Carmelites and have a great love for St.
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Teresa and Jesus and John of the Cross and Therese of Lesieux.
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And a lot of my formation has been in that tradition.
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And so when I came to Rosebank, having worked in other Catholic schools in Sydney for quite a while, it was a new experience.
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First of all, it was moving into a co-ed environment.
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I taught mostly in all boys' schools, and it was very different.
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And it took a while to begin to figure out what the difference was.
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And after a while, it came about through meeting a couple of good Sams, two of whom are very well known to we three, Elizabeth Brennan and Christine Manning.
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And through getting to know them and being introduced to the story of Polding and Scholastica Gibbons and to the Benedictine tradition, all I can say is that within about a year or so, it was this feeling as though I'd come home.
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It was the only way I can describe it.
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When I think about in the previous schools where I taught and in growing up in the parish and what have you, uh, wonderful, wonderful people, great tradition and what have you, but it never quite resonated with me.
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It was always something missing, I suppose, for me.
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But coming to Rosebank and coming into the Good Sam world, it was as though, well, it's here and it's been waiting for you and you've finally arrived.
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So I was ready for it.
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And over the last 10, 11 years that I've been at Rosebank, well now it's the 12th year at Rosebank, that awareness of this wonderfully rich tradition has just grown and grown.
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And as Christine Manning pointed out to me at one point, a number of years ago, the Benedictine way is one way of living out your baptism.
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And that's all it is.
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It's no better than or less than any other one of the ways within the Christian family.
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And I thought, gee, yeah, there's something wow.
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And that led to a number of other conversations, and then came the clincher, which was when I was asked, have you thought about the oblates?
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And I said, No, I haven't.
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What are they?
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I think the best kept secret of the sisters was was revealed to me.
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And I thought, gee.
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And I started the journey to oblation, which happened last August after COVID interrupted a few things.
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And it's just reinforced what I said at the start.
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I feel like I've come home.
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I've grown to love this tradition in its Australian format.
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And I think that for me, in coming in contact with the sisters and the Good Samaritan Benedictine family, and discovering that it's a group of women who have opened their doors to all women and men who seek after God in this particular way of living, in whatever way of life you're in, I think is just fantastic.
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It's it's been absolutely wonderful.
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So that's where I am at the moment.
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And I'm so happy to be here.
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And the more I read about polling and scholastica gibbons, and the more I enter into Benedict's way of being a Christian, I think it's just fantastic.
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Yeah, thanks, Paul.
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I know I've had a similar experience of that sense of coming home in my encounter, and like you, a fair bit later in life.
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Like, how have I not known this before?
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Where was this secret hiding?
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But you know, some of the best secrets are hiding in plain sight.
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Absolutely.
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So today we are going to dig a little bit deeper into the John B.
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Polding story, and not just the first Archbishop of Sydney, but the first bishop of Australia and a Benedictine from Downside Abbey in England.
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So let's set the scene.
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He arrived in Australia in 1835.
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What was the Australia he set out into?
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What do you think he had in mind compared to what he was faced to in this new reality called Australia?
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The first thing that comes into my mind is that as an English Benedictine in the early 19th century, he had experienced monastic life as missionary monastic life.
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The great abbeys and what have you of England had long disappeared through the Reformation.
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And Holding came into a Catholic community that was really just beginning to re-emerge after a couple of hundred years of not necessarily brutal persecution, but certainly of being outsiders in their own country.
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And it was with a re-emerged sense of mission and of active missionary work, which might seem strange when you think of Benedictine monks as perhaps being cloistered and all the rest of it.
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But the English Benedictines were missionaries.
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Many of them didn't live in monastic communities most of the time.
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They were out literally on mission.
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So when Paulding was approached to be the first bishop of Australia, the Vicar General, the Vicar Apostolic of New Holland, I think he would have approached that with a sense of this is what God is calling me for.
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I've been called to be a missionary to this vast land on the other side of the world, and I will go as a missionary, who is also a Benedictine.
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And I think when he arrived in Sydney in September 1835, I don't think anything could have prepared him for the culture shock that must have hit him.
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This highly cultivated, urbane gentleman coming into the rough and tumble of colonial Sydney in the 1830s would have been a shock.
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He would have literally landed with the smell of Sydney Harbour all around him, which would have been appalling.
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He would have been surrounded with convict ships being unloaded, with the vision of children running wild in the street, of every second building around the rocks being a pub or a brothel or something like that.
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It would have been quite confronting.
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But I don't think he ever let that get in the way of what he believed was his call to be a missionary bishop, a missionary Christian to these people.
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And I think it's evidence in his life that Polding had that wonderful gift of being able to be with people from across the whole socioeconomic spectrum.
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I keep thinking of the day of his funeral when you had tens of thousands of people lining the street all the way to Petersham Cemetery from St.
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Mary's.
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Most of those people weren't Catholics.
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And that didn't matter.
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He had this gift of being able to touch people's hearts wherever they were.
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That doesn't mean he wasn't without his own particular foibles.
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I mean, I still think he entertained the great vision of establishing an English Benedictine community style of living in Sydney.
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And it remained, I think, one of his constant heartaches that it never happened.
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Fran, I was just going to ask you to give us a bit of a picture of what the demographics were, because an Englishman coming into this particular scenario, who were the main states?
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Like who were the Catholics he was attending to?
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Well, you know, he came into a colony where there was social disparity.
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There was the convicts, mainly the Irish convicts who were Catholic, and I think about 30% of the actual colony were convicts.
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He was ministering to Irish Catholics, but he also came to a colony where there was social divisions for women, the poor, First Nations people, and the convicts themselves.
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I think what he did as well is he saw himself as following in the footsteps of those Benedictine missionaries who'd gone out to Europe.
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Particularly, I think he felt an affiliation with Augustine, who brought Christianity to England as well.
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So he saw himself as a missioner and he began an intensive mission once he came here.
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He wasn't put off by what it was like when he got here.
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And like Paul, I don't think anything could have prepared him for what he actually saw in terms of the social conditions and the poverty and everything else that he saw.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And coming in as the new face of the Catholic Church and having the Church of England being so tied up with authority, I'd imagine that must have been such a different way to enter into, although I guess it was similar to the how it operates in England too, but that's something that he was used to.
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Have you got any insights into his relationship with authority in that space?
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Well, I think being English actually gave him a little bit of an advantage because the British government didn't see him with suspicion.
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You know, they were more suspicious of the Irish, I don't know if I should use that term, but you know, the idea that it was an advantage that he was English.
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And I think there was a little bit more trust with holding.
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I agree with that.
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I think there's another element.
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Holding, being English and coming from England, understood how the system worked, and he had the gift of being able to work with the system.
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And certainly he appears to have had quite positive relations with the colonial government, with the governors.
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And how did he get along with other religious leaders?
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I'm not 100% certain, but I think in whatever situation he would have been in, if he met Bishop Broughton, for example, the Anglican Bishop of Sydney, he would have been as he was with everybody gracious, personable, welcoming, but always with the sense that I'm here on this mission and the mission is what comes first.
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But I will always be gracious and polite to everybody.
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There's one story that I think is actually quite funny.
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In 1842, Polding was formally declared by the Pope as Bishop of Sydney.
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And then a couple of weeks later, the news came that the Pope had made him Archbishop of Sydney.
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Bishop Broughton, the Anglican bishop, was never the Archbishop.
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So on the Queen's birthday, May the 24th, the governor would hold a levee, a party.
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And according to strict precedent, an archbishop always outranked a bishop.
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So polding always went ahead of the Anglican bishop, which caused um quite a considerable social storm at the time.
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So but polling, I think, would have been gracious every step of the way.
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I bet.
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I think he held a unique position where he could make a difference, especially for the Catholic community in Australia, because the British government, as I was saying earlier, had those misgivings about the Irish, I think his English attributes and the Benedictines in general.
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Well, an enduring image of many that encountered Polding across Australia is captured at Rosebank College in the statue of him in his riding gear and with his horse.
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And what can you share with us about his missionary journeys?
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He was very much the man on horseback and out and about.
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There are many stories across Australia of him planting crosses on top of mountains on his ride to kind of claiming and dedicating Australia to Christ.
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How do you think people encountered him?
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I think before he actually rode out, I think one of the main things that has struck me through my reading about Paulding was he approached Burke almost immediately when he realized that the convicts were coming in from the boats.
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And he asked Burke if he could have some time with the Catholic convicts before they went out to the vastness of Australia, before they went out to work in different areas of Australia.
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And he wanted to have a retreat with them.
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So he had them for a few days.
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Some of the sources say a few days, some say 10 days, but he spent some time with them on retreat, preparing them for what Australia was like, giving them some sort of religious instruction, but also religious exercises, but also pastoral care.
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And he was really quite known for his pastoral care.
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And that program proved really successful in the fact that, you know, a few years later, most of those Catholics who he ministered to before they actually went out to the different places in Australia led successful lives, led successful lives in Australia.
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There's a terrific quote that shows that he got right down in amongst it.
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And it came from a French Canadian political prisoner.
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And it was something like, he said, We're all touched by the zeal and charity of these clergy, but to see the bishop come crawl about for three days in succession in the depths of our quarters.
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So he got right in there and amongst it.
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And I think, you know, that's what made him enduring to many.
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And that's even before he actually went out to the different places.
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When you think that he arrives in September 1835, less than five years later, he's back on a ship heading back to Europe to recruit more priests and any religious he could get to come out to Australia.
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In 1843, I think it was, he's up on Stradbroke Island establishing a mission to First Nations people up there.
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:31.519
And I think one of the things that impresses me so much about this man was from all accounts, he was a man of very deep prayer.
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.799
He never neglected his prayer life, his Lexio.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:42.079
And that I think gave him the energy to keep on these missionary journeys across Australia on horseback.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:48.319
And you think of the time it took to get from Sydney to London, from Sydney to Stradbroke, from Sydney to Melbourne.
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.880
I mean, as we discovered, even just getting to Glebe was a half day's ride.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.359
I mean, getting to Rosebank from Sydney Town would have been almost a full day's ride.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:58.720
The man never stopped.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.240
And even with what seemed to be a failure, I mean, the Stradbroke Island mission was a failure.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:05.279
It dissolved.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:11.200
Bringing the first lot of Christian brothers out here again in the 1840s didn't go particularly well.
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:20.160
And part of that was because Polding could be downright stubborn at times and wanted everybody to be a Benedictine, and couldn't imagine why you wouldn't want to be a Benedictine.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:27.920
The man did have some flaws, but at the same time, he never stopped pushing ahead because the mission was what mattered.
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:29.440
The mission had to continue.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:44.400
Well, I think, and I look at the statue of him outside of the school here at Rosebanks and think that's how most of his flock across Australia would have encountered him as a man in his riding gear with his horse and probably the dog coming to meet them.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.119
He didn't wait for them to come to him.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:54.559
He went to meet them, dotted around New South Wales, all of these little churches that undoubtedly he went to.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:59.920
He was with his flock, as Pope Francis would say, he had the smell of the sheep about him.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:09.440
I think he saw the need for such an intensive mission, and he really set the tone for that because he didn't stop.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:13.359
Like he was on his horses, riding to every area that he could go to.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.599
He was back in Rome, he was in Europe recruiting other religious orders.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.160
But I think he thought that he was faced with a colony that really needed a good shepherd.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.359
And I believe that's what he really was, and he wasted no time.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:31.519
Paul, I have to say, the first time I saw the statue of Paulding and his horse, I was taken aback.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.680
It was quite moving because I was expecting such a large figure.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:47.039
But that statue really for me just shows the humility of every time I see it, I just see a man who is generous, warm hearted, and you know, full of humility.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.200
Yeah, I think so.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.720
And one of the other things I love about that statue is the way it's positioned.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.519
He's looking sort of diagonally towards Scholastica gibbons and working here at Rosebank and becoming a part of the good.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:15.039
Sam's story, I see another side of this man working with this incredible woman and him recognizing in her the gifts and the talents that she had and that she brought with her that he worked with.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:23.440
I never get the sense in any of Paulding's relationships with religious women or women in general that he ever attempted to dominate.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:25.599
That comes to a good point there.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.200
We have a very warm view towards Paulding.
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:33.599
There's some that don't have quite so warm a view towards Paulding, particularly the charities.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:45.200
As you've already mentioned, Paulding didn't quite understand why everyone didn't want to be Benedictine, and in fact, tried to convince the charities once he had them on board that they should become Benedictine, then they weren't quite so keen on that.
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:50.799
But as you say, he did really work with people and he really engaged in partnership.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:59.039
He knew that he couldn't do it alone, this enormous undertaking that he was charged to be a shepherd and not to go it alone.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:08.160
So tell us a bit more about who he worked with and how those kind of partnerships and relationships were built and building into then the founding of the Sisters of the Good Samaritan.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:16.960
So I think one of his great partnerships was with Mary Aikenhead prior to his departure or in advance of his departure.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:24.319
He approached her because, you know, these were the first sisters in Ireland, I believe, that were actually not enclosed.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:32.160
And Mary Aikenhead's Sisters of Charity had a fourth vow, and their fourth vow that they took was service of the poor.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:43.759
So not being a closed order, they were known as the walking nuns in Ireland, and they moved into the streets, into homes, into jails, into hospitals.
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:54.000
And I think he could see that these were the people, these were the sisters, I beg your pardon, who could really be part of this mission in Australia and could cope with the situation in Australia.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:24:00.480
So I think that partnership was a really valuable one, you know, for the colony and for particularly for women in the colony.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:08.640
So there were some charities that came out with him on the boat because he'd already had that conversation with Mary Aikenhead before he even arrived in Australia.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:09.200
Is that right?
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:12.160
I made a mistake earlier in the cathedral.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.920
No, the charities arrived in 1838, he arrived in 1835.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:16.880
My mistake.
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:28.559
But on that point, I think that holding the Benedictine who wanted everybody to be Benedictine was the holding who, when he slowed down and took a deep breath, realized that probably wasn't going to happen.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.079
And I think he was big enough to finally recognise that.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:37.440
And there are numerous accounts where he would apologize or he would, you know, say, all right, let's carry on.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:37.920
Of course.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:45.359
But I also think it's testimony to the strength of those women, particularly the charities, who said to his face, no, we're not going to do that.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:46.960
We're not going to be Benedictines.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.920
We're Irish sisters of charity, and that's who we are.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.559
And I can totally understand his point of view on one point.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.640
I can't understand why anyone else would not want to be Benedictine too at the same time.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:01.920
As you were saying before, I recognize that it's just one expression, and he would have done the same.
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:02.640
Yes.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:07.119
And he, I think he sort of came to the point where, all right, well, okay, okay, okay.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.599
By which time, you know, you've got other religious orders and congregations coming into this country.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:26.319
But you know, there's another side of the whole story as well, is that it was effectively a lay Catholic community until Paulding really got here and began to implement or bring in the institutional church, which was part of the mission.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:38.400
But I don't think he ever lost sight of the importance of lay Catholics, because you know, the reality was most people had little access to the clergy anyway, particularly out in the rural areas.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:39.279
And he knew that.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:54.160
So I think he valued the role of catechists, the handing on of the faith, and remembering that the religious communities, the non-clerical religious communities, are essentially communities of lay men and women who group together with a common religious purpose.
00:25:54.319 --> 00:26:12.319
And I think he valued that, which puts him in one sense at odds with many elements, particularly from the Irish side, that developed a very strong clericalist sense because it was so linked to a re-emergence of Irish nationalism and it set them up in that way.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.119
And it was a strong community focus and all of that thing.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:25.200
But I think Polding had a far more gentle approach, and I think he had a very deep appreciation of the gifts and talents of those who were not necessarily clergy.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:26.079
Yeah.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.640
On that, so let's go back to that relationship with Mother Scholastica Gibbons.
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:31.920
How did that emerge?
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:42.240
Well, look, I think Polding on the mission was looking for co-workers who would work with him to start something and then would continue it.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:52.160
And of course, Scholastica Gibbons was this incredible woman, blessed by grace and nature to use that phrase, and at a skilled administrator.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:58.559
And of course, she was integral to doing the work of the Sisters of Charity with the poor in Sydney.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:12.000
And he met her, of course, at the Good Shepherd Refuge and saw in her the talents, the gifts, the missionary zeal that he wanted to work with.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:25.920
And with the work that had already been happening around the Haymarket and Campbell Street with the first Good Shepherd Refuge, he saw the need was there, and the need was being addressed in a number of ways already.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:29.440
I think Polding wanted to support that work.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.920
I don't think he wanted to come in and take it over.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.799
He wanted to support it and help it develop and grow.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:48.640
And as a man of his time, I think he believed the best way to do that was to found a congregation of religious women who would minister to women on the streets, sex workers, what we would call victims of domestic abuse, that sort of thing.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:55.680
And Scholastica Givens was the woman who appeared to be the best co-worker with him.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.960
And when I say co-worker, I mean a co-worker.
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:00.880
She was not his subordinate.
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:05.920
She was an incredibly tactful, diplomatic, but strong woman.
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.599
I mean, that story when he says, Why won't you wear the Benedictine habit?
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:10.240
Or would you?
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:11.519
And she said, No, I won't.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:13.759
I'm a charity sister, I'm not a good Samaritan.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:15.039
I think he would have gone.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:26.079
I think he developed a good partnership with her because he could see that this need in Sydney was not going away.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:32.240
And there was a need to have more sisters on board and more help on board for the women of Sydney.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:42.160
At the same time, I think Australia in the 1840s and into the 1850s was going through a major economic recession.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.480
Poverty was so widespread.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:53.599
And until the advent of the gold rush in the 1850s, Sydney was a grim place to be, was not a pleasant place to be.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:04.240
So polding saw consecrated religious women within an institution that had a place within the Catholic Church that had a recognized canonical place.
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:16.160
That meant it came under some sort of episcopal protection, if you like, would provide a security for continuing the missionary work in the event that others were unable to continue.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.119
Now, I've got no historical evidence to support that.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.720
It's just a thought that I have.
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:34.319
But I think it fits with the time and with holding believing that the missionary work was guided by the spirit, that the spirit would lead, and he would follow where the spirit led.
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:39.200
And I don't think at any point he ever was into empire building or anything like that.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.160
The need was there, the missionary work was to be done.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:44.880
He would follow the promptings of the spirit to do it.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:56.319
And I think that's where it led him to Scholastica Gibbons, and it led them to then create, under his original idea, congregation of active Benedictine women.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:13.680
And of course, she was essentially the leader of two congregations then in the early stages of the Good Samaritans, because she was still leading and the head of the charities, while then developing alongside holding these new forms of religious women as the Sisters of the Good Samaritan.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.960
And running St.
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.319
Vincent's Hospital.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:19.839
Well, exactly.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:21.920
I don't know.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:37.279
What that partnership meant was when we keep our eye on the bigger picture as well, was that thousands of women were able to find shelter and start a new life because of that partnership between holding and scholastica gibbons.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:46.319
And the fact that more than a few of the women who came into the refuge asked to stay and did so for the rest of their lives.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.440
And that seems to be a pattern that developed through St.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:51.359
Magdalene's at Tempe as well.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:54.640
More than a few of the women stayed there for the rest of their lives.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:58.160
They found a community, they found a family, and they stayed there.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:09.200
And again, I think that's testament to Polding's vision and his ability that once the work had started and was flourishing, he stepped back.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:10.960
I think that's an extraordinary thing.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:29.440
When I think of his some of his contemporary bishops, particularly in Bathurst and Brisbane, who micromanaged every aspect of their diocese to the point where we know that the story with Mary McKillop that you know she couldn't work in Brisbane, so she left.
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.400
And the split with the Josephites in Bathurst.
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:34.319
Holding was never like that.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:43.519
And I think that also points to bigness of heart and bigness of spirit, and his own trust that the work would flourish as God wanted it to flourish.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:45.680
To me, that's one of his greatest.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:32:04.079
It's a really empowering model of leadership, and that with those benedicting qualities coming through, that subsidiarity of knowing, yep, stepping back, letting the local do what they do best and where they have the knowledge, and you know, dropping in for support and mentoring and all that sort of thing, but still allowing it to flourish where it's rooted.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:18.480
I think one of the other benedicting qualities we find when we really kind of dig into some of Holding's story is the engagement he had with the Indigenous community of Australia and how he was able to meet them as equals and advocate for them.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:28.480
As we're coming up to the date's not set yet, but a lot of discussion around bringing a voice to a more authentic voice for our Indigenous people.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:34.400
What stories have you got to tell us about Holdings engagement with our Indigenous communities in Australia?
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:40.960
Well, he definitely showed a genuine concern for the welfare and rights of Indigenous peoples.
00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:44.720
I think he was one of very few people who advocated for them at the time.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.759
So I think he was the man before his time.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:08.640
He recognized the First Nations peoples were being dispossessed of their land, and he really had a deep compassion.
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:16.720
He followed that up in Lenten Pastoral in 1849, which is essentially addressed to the Catholics of the diocese.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:29.039
And he says that the wretched, unfortunate Aborigines of the country, the first occupants of the lands over which your flocks and herds now roam, have a very strong claim upon you.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:35.920
Nor will the Lord hold you innocent if you have not used your best endeavors to promote their temporal and eternal well-being.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:42.240
That's nearly 165 years before the recognition of the stolen generations.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:59.440
I mean, gee, the man's human humanity, the man's humility and his ableness to see the image and likeness of God in First Nations Australians in 1849 is powerful.
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:07.599
I imagine there were many Catholics that could see, but he used his voice.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:16.400
Almost in that statement, that pastor statement, there's echoes of John Paul's statement at Uluru in the 80s.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:25.760
Well, our community will never be fully itself without the recognition and the voice of our First Nations people and how much we have to benefit from that.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:26.880
Absolutely.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.079
Absolutely.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.599
I think he saw everybody for who they were.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.360
Like he valued the dignity and integrity of everybody.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:45.920
So, you know, I really do believe that he stood strongly in word and action for everybody in the community, particularly those on the margins, and particularly for our First Nations peoples at the time.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:46.400
Yeah.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:35:10.559
And having said all of that, you know, I think it's also important to remember that in his role as archbishop, he was a loyal and faithful Catholic in the sense of he was a middle to late 19th century Catholic bishop, Roman Catholic bishop, in a church that still held that everybody outside the Catholic Church was at best possibly saved.
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:11.119
Yes.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:19.360
And you know, you've got the 1869 council meeting in Australia where the bishops pushed very hard for the mixed marriages.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.639
No, send your kids to Catholic schools, all the rest of it.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:28.880
So, you know, he really was also at the same time a man of the church of his own day and age.
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:30.320
A man of his time.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.559
And I think it's important to recognize that so that we don't pathologize him.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:43.280
I mean, he was able to walk in two worlds, but at the heart of all of it, he never lost that graciousness that I think pervaded everything.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:44.800
That was who he was.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:46.320
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.960
In April earlier this year, I had the pleasure of visiting Dowie Abbey.
00:35:51.119 --> 00:36:00.000
Myself and the other visiting pilgrims were given a talk about 19th century Benedictines, including polding, from one of the English monks there.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.960
And they gave a less than flattering overview of polling from the English perspective.
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:07.119
And for me, two things became very clear.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:15.280
Firstly, even though, as our country are trying to peel back those layers of the colonial mindset, the English have no other way of seeing the world.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.719
That's who they have been forever, which illuminates the second boot.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:26.480
That I was quite shocked about the revelation that the English Benedictines see Polding essentially as a failure.
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:32.880
What's your reaction to hearing that quite jarring kind of reflection on Polding's ministry here in Australia?
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.920
And what do you think Polding's legacy is?
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:44.960
I well, I'm sitting on the other side of the world in Australia, and I hear that.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:50.960
And I think my first reaction is then I don't think you've understood anything about his mission.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:37:08.159
Well, because they saw his mission, they understood his mission, regardless of the Archbishop of Sydney element, they saw his Benedictine mission as planting Benedictine monastic life in its English sense of that idea, whole as bolas in Australia, then it should flourish from there.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.079
And of course, it didn't happen that way.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:11.440
No, it didn't.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:26.800
It's a bit sad that they can't see that holding established a form of Benedictine life that is an authentic development of the tradition in a new environment for a new time and a new purpose.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:34.800
I think, you know, the romantic vision of establishing English Benedictinism in Australia is precisely that it's a fantasy.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:55.199
But he followed the promptings of the spirit, and the spirit did what the spirit does, and she opened up whole new ways, and we are the beneficiaries of that.
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:57.679
Well, that's it.
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:11.039
I mean, I raised my hand and it's like, well, we have really a very much more warm um reflection or impression of holding, and I kind of got the the look down the nose, like, oh yes, we know that's true.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.119
We we know that's how you see him, but that's not reality from our point of view.
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:25.920
The following day I was talking to the archivist from Downside, who is in the early stages of writing a book about holding, so stay tuned, and who I was very much encouraging he had to come to Australia when he gets to that stage.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:40.719
And I was saying to him, it's like we are the beneficiaries, but also the new revelation of that expression as Good Samaritans here in Australia as the new a way of being benedictine that is for this place, which is very Benedictine.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.079
It's for this place.
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.599
So yeah, that's it's really interesting.
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:48.320
Yeah.
00:38:48.559 --> 00:39:00.320
I guess when I first heard that, I felt a bit sad because I don't think the English Benedictines really understood the um scale of Paulding's mission here in Australia and what Australia was actually like.
00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:00.880
Oh yeah.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:09.599
I think the needs of the colony were far greater than the Benedictine dream, the sense that we're going to set up, transplant what was in the UK to this nation.
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:17.039
I think there was too few priests, and you know, the challenge with the Irish clergy as well for Paulding was a bit tricky.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.400
But what I think is the greatness of Paulding actually lies in that he never unwavered from his mission.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:23.599
He stuck to his mission.
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:31.599
So that's why it kind of saddens me that you know the English have that jarring take on Paulding because he was about service to God and service to the community.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:38.800
And there's that lovely quote about him that says he had a passion for the reign of God and compassion for the people of God.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:40.159
I'd agree with that 100%.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:58.400
And look, I think if anything, polling demonstrates not just the flexibility of Benedict's vision, but also his faithfulness to listening in his lectio and in his prayer, listening to the spirit and listening to the voice of Christ, urging him.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:03.440
I keep hearing that wonderful phrase from the lentin, the pastor of 1874.
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:09.039
You know, do we not feel a call to become the ministers of Christ's mercy, the messengers of Christ's compassion?
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.119
That to me is what drove him.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:12.719
That's what compelled him.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.000
And that ability for him to see Christ in the other.
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.960
That profound humility, the hospitality that he showed to everybody.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:32.000
Well, he certainly seems to be, while a man of his times, being able to read the signs of his times and the lay of the land and what the promptings of the spirit was.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:37.119
We know he had some failings and some failures too, and didn't always get that right.
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.440
But I mean, none of us do all the time.
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:44.239
I think he comes across as a very human, human being, which is a good thing to be.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:53.679
And as we say, we don't want to deify him in that respect, but we are very proud of the legacy that he has left in our hands as well as we continue.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:02.239
Now, as we're wrapping up, there's one question I ask of all of my guests on Communio Calling, and it is do you have a favorite?
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.679
Now it might be your favorite today or your favorite of all time.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:08.960
Quote from the rule of Benedict, and why?
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:11.599
Too many to choose from.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:23.280
I like in chapter 72, the verse that goes, let them prefer nothing, whatever, to Christ, and may Christ bring us all together to everlasting life.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:32.400
So I just love that because you know it just shows the Christ-centeredness of Benedict's rule, but that whole communal seeking of God together as well.
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:33.199
What about you?
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.239
What have you what riches have you got for us today, Paul?
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:38.239
Well, Franz already said it.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:40.480
That's the one that always comes to mind.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:49.920
And for the same reasons, let us prefer nothing whatever to Christ, and may Christ bring us all together to everlasting life.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:56.320
We use it here as one of our blessings at the end of prayer, and I just think it says everything.
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:22.000
I think in the Us is Polding and Scholastica Gibbons, is Benedict, is Scholastica, is the whole communion of the Benedictine family, of the Good Samaritan family, and especially here at Rosebank, with the presence of the original Good Samaritan sisters with us and Mother Scholastica, you know, that communion of saints with us here, yeah, bring us all together to everlasting life.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.840
That all is the clincher, just that three-letter word, all.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:27.119
Absolutely.
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.440
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure talking about polling with you today.
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.679
And I'm sure we will uh talk again.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:46.800
And for those of you that have had the pleasure already of joining one of the Sydney pilgrimages, you'll hear more of polding, and hopefully you'll get a chance along the way to join one of the pilgrimages as we continue them throughout the years.
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.320
Thanks again.
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:49.920
Thank you, Gabrielle.
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.559
Thank you, Fran.
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:52.079
Thank you, Paul.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:53.440
Thank you, Gabriel.
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.639
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:09.199
It's so great to get stuck into some of the stories about holding and hear a bit more of that whole person.
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:38.480
It's important not to deify our important people, our legends, as it were, in our community, but to really hear the stories of the full person and to know that those realities are possible in everyday life and to hear the story of that Benedictine mission, that living out, that listening to the signs of the times, that perseverance and understanding of the spirit in everyday life, to hear the signs of the times and to work with it.
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:50.480
And hearing that model of leadership where it was possible to empower so many different people and so many different ministries along the way, and then to step back and allow them to meet the needs of the local community.
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:59.039
So I hope you enjoyed that conversation and learned a bit more about polding and our history and foundation of our community and who we are.
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:04.239
So I hope this conversation has sparked some new insights about John B.
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:14.639
Polding, so that as you go along your day, that the transforming table of hospitality be wide, inspiring you with mercy and compassion to go and do likewise.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.200
I'm Gabrielle Sinclair and this is Communio Calling.
00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:23.920
Today on Communio Calling, we have Paul O'Shea, who is the Dean of Mission for Rose Bank College, and we have Fran Feller, who is the program coordinator for Good Samaritan Education.
00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:27.280
So today we're going to be talking about Polding, John B.
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:32.640
Polding, one of the co-founders of the Sisters of the Good Samaritan of the Order of St.
00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:33.520
Benedict.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:34.880
But let's just jump in.
00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.679
We've got lots to discuss, so let's go.
00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:45.759
Well, welcome.
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:49.840
Today we have with us Fran Bella and Paul O'Shea.
00:00:50.159 --> 00:01:01.920
And as you might know, our podcast, Communio Calling, is intentionally grounded in sharing story as part of honouring the fabric of our connection, our incarnational reality and the expression of diversity of who we are.
00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:03.600
So let's start with Story.
00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:11.519
Fran, would you like to tell us a bit about your story, the influences and your family growing up, and perhaps when you first encountered the Good Sands?
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:12.159
Sure.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.719
Thanks, Gabriel, and thanks for inviting me on today.
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:16.560
I've had an awareness of St.
00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:18.719
Benedict most of my life.
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:24.879
I don't remember it, but my first encounter with the charism came when I was baptised at St.
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Benedict's Church, which was part of St.
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Gertrude's Parish in Smithville in southwestern Sydney when I was only three weeks old.
00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:33.519
So growing up at St.
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Gertrude's Parish was very much a central part of life for our family.
00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:46.239
It was part of a growing European community made up of predominantly Italian and Maltese migrants and their families.
00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:50.480
Both my parents are from Malta and quite faithful Catholics.
00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:51.280
So St.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:57.040
Gertrude's Parish, as you can tell from the great Benedictine Saints name, was um was run by St.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.400
Benedictine priests of the Silvestrine congregation.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:06.879
And when there was a need to build a new church, as the parish was growing in the 1970s, they naturally dedicated it to St.
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.479
Benedict once again.
00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:14.800
So attending mass weekly was a compulsory activity for everybody in the Vela family.
00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:16.560
I grew up with an awareness of St.
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Benedict.
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:21.840
I'm not sure if I really knew a lot about him, but an awareness of St.
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:25.039
Benedict and some of the Benedictine saints, like St.
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Gertrude and Saint Sylvester.
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And the awareness came from the stained glass windows in the church.
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.599
The stained glass windows were quite dramatic.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:38.080
They're probably about five or six metres in length, the height of them, quite tall.
00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.479
And just gazing at those windows, you know, there were windows of St.
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Benedict, Saint Sylvester, Saint Gertrude, and just looking at them and just pondering on who they were.
00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:50.400
And spent many years doing that as a youngster.
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Very good.
00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.120
There's also a great mosaic of Saint Benedict behind the altar.
00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.840
And I spent many years looking at that mosaic.
00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.520
And so this great, great mosaic with the words aura at labora.
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:05.599
And luckily they had the English translation, pray and work underneath it.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.199
So I understood what that meant.
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:12.400
But it was just immersed in the Benedictine Saints, just through colour and through art.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:13.360
It was terrific.
00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:18.159
But what this church also had was a magnificent window dedicated to Paulding.
00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:22.719
So it was the first time an understanding of who Paulding was.
00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:30.639
Now, apparently, Paulding had a great presence in Smithfield, which is this smallish suburb, which was developing at the time.
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:41.919
And my understanding is that he used a ride to Liverpool to minister and to teach catechesis around Liverpool, but he'd always stop at a house in Smithfield for a cup of tea.
00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.759
So he had a quite presence there.
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Oh, that's wonderful.
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Well, I mean, we'll talk more about polling later, Brad, but more about you.
00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:50.159
So you said your parents were both remote.
00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.479
So does that mean you're first generation Australian?
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First generation.
00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.159
So education was quite important for my parents.
00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:58.639
I really were interested in a good education.
00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.000
And part of a good definition of good education was it had to be Catholic.
00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:04.000
So off I went to St.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:05.759
Gertrude's primary school again.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:08.719
Saints were present there in the charism.
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:13.520
But then I went along to a Murray sister school for my secondary schooling.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:14.960
And I absolutely loved it.
00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.639
It was just such a wonderful experience with the Murrah sisters.
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And I think it's there, particularly in my senior years, where I decided that I love this so much.
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I think I could do this for a living.
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And I decided to become a teacher.
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But it was also, I think, in my senior years where I began to earn my own faith.
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It wasn't the compulsory activity that it had been years before.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:45.199
And from that, I decided that I'd go to ACU, complete a Bachelor of Education, and study religious studies and history as my two majors.
00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:46.240
Yeah, wonderful.
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:56.480
And that's where I had my first encounter with the Good Samaritan Sisters, because I had a few lecturers who were Good Samaritan Sisters, quite strong, independent, and great teachers there.
00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:00.319
So that was my first encounter with the Good Samaritan Sisters.
00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:01.759
Oh, thanks, Fran.
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:03.680
Such a rich history there.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:04.879
Paul, how about you?
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:13.120
Can you tell us a bit about your growing up, your family, and the influences in your early life, and then where it's led you today?
00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.839
Okay, well, a very different story to Fran.
00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:23.439
I come from a line of Irish Catholic background, and I grew up in central western New South Wales in St.
00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:32.639
Bridget's Parish, Dubbo, and I went to school there, and I was taught by the Delasalle brothers and the Sisters of Mercy.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:44.000
So my religious formation grew up in rural New South Wales, very minimalist, I suppose, liturgical style, but with a very strong sense of community and of belonging.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:54.000
And out of that, through getting to know of our parish priests and some of the sisters quite well, they introduced me to the liturgy of the hours.
00:05:54.240 --> 00:06:07.839
And that's been one of the mainstays of my spiritual life ever since, which is a roundabout way of saying that, in a sense, that love of liturgy came through those inspirational men and women that I met growing up.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:13.680
I was an altar boy, a server, a reader, and uh a part-time parish organist.
00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.319
So I was pretty much involved in parish life.
00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:24.879
My first contact with the Good Sam's really didn't come until I started working at Rosebank in 2011.
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.519
So I've come to the Good Sam and the Benedictine story much later in life.
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I spent a lot of time with the Theresian Carmelites and have a great love for St.
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Teresa and Jesus and John of the Cross and Therese of Lesieux.
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And a lot of my formation has been in that tradition.
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And so when I came to Rosebank, having worked in other Catholic schools in Sydney for quite a while, it was a new experience.
00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:52.399
First of all, it was moving into a co-ed environment.
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I taught mostly in all boys' schools, and it was very different.
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And it took a while to begin to figure out what the difference was.
00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:12.399
And after a while, it came about through meeting a couple of good Sams, two of whom are very well known to we three, Elizabeth Brennan and Christine Manning.
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:30.480
And through getting to know them and being introduced to the story of Polding and Scholastica Gibbons and to the Benedictine tradition, all I can say is that within about a year or so, it was this feeling as though I'd come home.
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.480
It was the only way I can describe it.
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When I think about in the previous schools where I taught and in growing up in the parish and what have you, uh, wonderful, wonderful people, great tradition and what have you, but it never quite resonated with me.
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It was always something missing, I suppose, for me.
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:56.720
But coming to Rosebank and coming into the Good Sam world, it was as though, well, it's here and it's been waiting for you and you've finally arrived.
00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.399
So I was ready for it.
00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:11.439
And over the last 10, 11 years that I've been at Rosebank, well now it's the 12th year at Rosebank, that awareness of this wonderfully rich tradition has just grown and grown.
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:21.439
And as Christine Manning pointed out to me at one point, a number of years ago, the Benedictine way is one way of living out your baptism.
00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:22.639
And that's all it is.
00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:27.920
It's no better than or less than any other one of the ways within the Christian family.
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.519
And I thought, gee, yeah, there's something wow.
00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:38.960
And that led to a number of other conversations, and then came the clincher, which was when I was asked, have you thought about the oblates?
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:40.720
And I said, No, I haven't.
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What are they?
00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.879
I think the best kept secret of the sisters was was revealed to me.
00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:48.320
And I thought, gee.
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And I started the journey to oblation, which happened last August after COVID interrupted a few things.
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And it's just reinforced what I said at the start.
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I feel like I've come home.
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:05.200
I've grown to love this tradition in its Australian format.
00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:30.159
And I think that for me, in coming in contact with the sisters and the Good Samaritan Benedictine family, and discovering that it's a group of women who have opened their doors to all women and men who seek after God in this particular way of living, in whatever way of life you're in, I think is just fantastic.
00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:31.840
It's it's been absolutely wonderful.
00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:33.840
So that's where I am at the moment.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.080
And I'm so happy to be here.
00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:46.639
And the more I read about polling and scholastica gibbons, and the more I enter into Benedict's way of being a Christian, I think it's just fantastic.
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:48.159
Yeah, thanks, Paul.
00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:55.279
I know I've had a similar experience of that sense of coming home in my encounter, and like you, a fair bit later in life.
00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:57.519
Like, how have I not known this before?
00:09:57.919 --> 00:09:59.519
Where was this secret hiding?
00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.960
But you know, some of the best secrets are hiding in plain sight.
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:04.320
Absolutely.
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.960
So today we are going to dig a little bit deeper into the John B.
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:19.279
Polding story, and not just the first Archbishop of Sydney, but the first bishop of Australia and a Benedictine from Downside Abbey in England.
00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:20.960
So let's set the scene.
00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:24.559
He arrived in Australia in 1835.
00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:27.440
What was the Australia he set out into?
00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:33.919
What do you think he had in mind compared to what he was faced to in this new reality called Australia?
00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:47.679
The first thing that comes into my mind is that as an English Benedictine in the early 19th century, he had experienced monastic life as missionary monastic life.
00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:53.519
The great abbeys and what have you of England had long disappeared through the Reformation.
00:10:53.759 --> 00:11:08.879
And Holding came into a Catholic community that was really just beginning to re-emerge after a couple of hundred years of not necessarily brutal persecution, but certainly of being outsiders in their own country.
00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:21.279
And it was with a re-emerged sense of mission and of active missionary work, which might seem strange when you think of Benedictine monks as perhaps being cloistered and all the rest of it.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:23.600
But the English Benedictines were missionaries.
00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.320
Many of them didn't live in monastic communities most of the time.
00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:29.679
They were out literally on mission.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:42.080
So when Paulding was approached to be the first bishop of Australia, the Vicar General, the Vicar Apostolic of New Holland, I think he would have approached that with a sense of this is what God is calling me for.
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:51.759
I've been called to be a missionary to this vast land on the other side of the world, and I will go as a missionary, who is also a Benedictine.
00:11:51.919 --> 00:12:03.120
And I think when he arrived in Sydney in September 1835, I don't think anything could have prepared him for the culture shock that must have hit him.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:12.159
This highly cultivated, urbane gentleman coming into the rough and tumble of colonial Sydney in the 1830s would have been a shock.
00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:17.519
He would have literally landed with the smell of Sydney Harbour all around him, which would have been appalling.
00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:30.799
He would have been surrounded with convict ships being unloaded, with the vision of children running wild in the street, of every second building around the rocks being a pub or a brothel or something like that.
00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:32.480
It would have been quite confronting.
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:42.960
But I don't think he ever let that get in the way of what he believed was his call to be a missionary bishop, a missionary Christian to these people.
00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:52.480
And I think it's evidence in his life that Polding had that wonderful gift of being able to be with people from across the whole socioeconomic spectrum.
00:12:52.639 --> 00:13:01.039
I keep thinking of the day of his funeral when you had tens of thousands of people lining the street all the way to Petersham Cemetery from St.
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:01.679
Mary's.
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.399
Most of those people weren't Catholics.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:05.759
And that didn't matter.
00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:10.159
He had this gift of being able to touch people's hearts wherever they were.
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.759
That doesn't mean he wasn't without his own particular foibles.
00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:21.279
I mean, I still think he entertained the great vision of establishing an English Benedictine community style of living in Sydney.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:26.320
And it remained, I think, one of his constant heartaches that it never happened.
00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:35.840
Fran, I was just going to ask you to give us a bit of a picture of what the demographics were, because an Englishman coming into this particular scenario, who were the main states?
00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:38.240
Like who were the Catholics he was attending to?
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:43.519
Well, you know, he came into a colony where there was social disparity.
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:51.600
There was the convicts, mainly the Irish convicts who were Catholic, and I think about 30% of the actual colony were convicts.
00:13:51.840 --> 00:14:04.639
He was ministering to Irish Catholics, but he also came to a colony where there was social divisions for women, the poor, First Nations people, and the convicts themselves.
00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:12.240
I think what he did as well is he saw himself as following in the footsteps of those Benedictine missionaries who'd gone out to Europe.
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:19.519
Particularly, I think he felt an affiliation with Augustine, who brought Christianity to England as well.
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:25.039
So he saw himself as a missioner and he began an intensive mission once he came here.
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.759
He wasn't put off by what it was like when he got here.
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:37.600
And like Paul, I don't think anything could have prepared him for what he actually saw in terms of the social conditions and the poverty and everything else that he saw.
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:38.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:58.879
And coming in as the new face of the Catholic Church and having the Church of England being so tied up with authority, I'd imagine that must have been such a different way to enter into, although I guess it was similar to the how it operates in England too, but that's something that he was used to.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:03.759
Have you got any insights into his relationship with authority in that space?
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:12.639
Well, I think being English actually gave him a little bit of an advantage because the British government didn't see him with suspicion.
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:20.320
You know, they were more suspicious of the Irish, I don't know if I should use that term, but you know, the idea that it was an advantage that he was English.
00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.279
And I think there was a little bit more trust with holding.
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:26.159
I agree with that.
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:27.519
I think there's another element.
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:35.679
Holding, being English and coming from England, understood how the system worked, and he had the gift of being able to work with the system.
00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:42.000
And certainly he appears to have had quite positive relations with the colonial government, with the governors.
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:45.519
And how did he get along with other religious leaders?
00:15:45.600 --> 00:16:04.559
I'm not 100% certain, but I think in whatever situation he would have been in, if he met Bishop Broughton, for example, the Anglican Bishop of Sydney, he would have been as he was with everybody gracious, personable, welcoming, but always with the sense that I'm here on this mission and the mission is what comes first.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.279
But I will always be gracious and polite to everybody.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.000
There's one story that I think is actually quite funny.
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:15.679
In 1842, Polding was formally declared by the Pope as Bishop of Sydney.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:21.360
And then a couple of weeks later, the news came that the Pope had made him Archbishop of Sydney.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.519
Bishop Broughton, the Anglican bishop, was never the Archbishop.
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:31.840
So on the Queen's birthday, May the 24th, the governor would hold a levee, a party.
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.840
And according to strict precedent, an archbishop always outranked a bishop.
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:42.320
So polding always went ahead of the Anglican bishop, which caused um quite a considerable social storm at the time.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.480
So but polling, I think, would have been gracious every step of the way.
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:47.279
I bet.
00:16:47.519 --> 00:17:02.480
I think he held a unique position where he could make a difference, especially for the Catholic community in Australia, because the British government, as I was saying earlier, had those misgivings about the Irish, I think his English attributes and the Benedictines in general.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:13.119
Well, an enduring image of many that encountered Polding across Australia is captured at Rosebank College in the statue of him in his riding gear and with his horse.
00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:16.240
And what can you share with us about his missionary journeys?
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.359
He was very much the man on horseback and out and about.
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:29.759
There are many stories across Australia of him planting crosses on top of mountains on his ride to kind of claiming and dedicating Australia to Christ.
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:32.079
How do you think people encountered him?
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:47.519
I think before he actually rode out, I think one of the main things that has struck me through my reading about Paulding was he approached Burke almost immediately when he realized that the convicts were coming in from the boats.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:57.440
And he asked Burke if he could have some time with the Catholic convicts before they went out to the vastness of Australia, before they went out to work in different areas of Australia.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.319
And he wanted to have a retreat with them.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.160
So he had them for a few days.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:16.799
Some of the sources say a few days, some say 10 days, but he spent some time with them on retreat, preparing them for what Australia was like, giving them some sort of religious instruction, but also religious exercises, but also pastoral care.
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:19.200
And he was really quite known for his pastoral care.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:34.319
And that program proved really successful in the fact that, you know, a few years later, most of those Catholics who he ministered to before they actually went out to the different places in Australia led successful lives, led successful lives in Australia.
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.799
There's a terrific quote that shows that he got right down in amongst it.
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.839
And it came from a French Canadian political prisoner.
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:52.400
And it was something like, he said, We're all touched by the zeal and charity of these clergy, but to see the bishop come crawl about for three days in succession in the depths of our quarters.
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.640
So he got right in there and amongst it.
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:58.000
And I think, you know, that's what made him enduring to many.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:02.480
And that's even before he actually went out to the different places.
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:17.119
When you think that he arrives in September 1835, less than five years later, he's back on a ship heading back to Europe to recruit more priests and any religious he could get to come out to Australia.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:24.480
In 1843, I think it was, he's up on Stradbroke Island establishing a mission to First Nations people up there.
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:31.519
And I think one of the things that impresses me so much about this man was from all accounts, he was a man of very deep prayer.
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.799
He never neglected his prayer life, his Lexio.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:42.079
And that I think gave him the energy to keep on these missionary journeys across Australia on horseback.
00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:48.319
And you think of the time it took to get from Sydney to London, from Sydney to Stradbroke, from Sydney to Melbourne.
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.880
I mean, as we discovered, even just getting to Glebe was a half day's ride.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.359
I mean, getting to Rosebank from Sydney Town would have been almost a full day's ride.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:58.720
The man never stopped.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:04.240
And even with what seemed to be a failure, I mean, the Stradbroke Island mission was a failure.
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:05.279
It dissolved.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:11.200
Bringing the first lot of Christian brothers out here again in the 1840s didn't go particularly well.
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:20.160
And part of that was because Polding could be downright stubborn at times and wanted everybody to be a Benedictine, and couldn't imagine why you wouldn't want to be a Benedictine.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:27.920
The man did have some flaws, but at the same time, he never stopped pushing ahead because the mission was what mattered.
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:29.440
The mission had to continue.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:44.400
Well, I think, and I look at the statue of him outside of the school here at Rosebanks and think that's how most of his flock across Australia would have encountered him as a man in his riding gear with his horse and probably the dog coming to meet them.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.119
He didn't wait for them to come to him.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:54.559
He went to meet them, dotted around New South Wales, all of these little churches that undoubtedly he went to.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:59.920
He was with his flock, as Pope Francis would say, he had the smell of the sheep about him.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:09.440
I think he saw the need for such an intensive mission, and he really set the tone for that because he didn't stop.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:13.359
Like he was on his horses, riding to every area that he could go to.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.599
He was back in Rome, he was in Europe recruiting other religious orders.
00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.160
But I think he thought that he was faced with a colony that really needed a good shepherd.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.359
And I believe that's what he really was, and he wasted no time.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:31.519
Paul, I have to say, the first time I saw the statue of Paulding and his horse, I was taken aback.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.680
It was quite moving because I was expecting such a large figure.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:47.039
But that statue really for me just shows the humility of every time I see it, I just see a man who is generous, warm hearted, and you know, full of humility.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.200
Yeah, I think so.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.720
And one of the other things I love about that statue is the way it's positioned.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.519
He's looking sort of diagonally towards Scholastica gibbons and working here at Rosebank and becoming a part of the good.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:15.039
Sam's story, I see another side of this man working with this incredible woman and him recognizing in her the gifts and the talents that she had and that she brought with her that he worked with.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:23.440
I never get the sense in any of Paulding's relationships with religious women or women in general that he ever attempted to dominate.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:25.599
That comes to a good point there.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.200
We have a very warm view towards Paulding.
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:33.599
There's some that don't have quite so warm a view towards Paulding, particularly the charities.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:45.200
As you've already mentioned, Paulding didn't quite understand why everyone didn't want to be Benedictine, and in fact, tried to convince the charities once he had them on board that they should become Benedictine, then they weren't quite so keen on that.
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:50.799
But as you say, he did really work with people and he really engaged in partnership.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:59.039
He knew that he couldn't do it alone, this enormous undertaking that he was charged to be a shepherd and not to go it alone.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:08.160
So tell us a bit more about who he worked with and how those kind of partnerships and relationships were built and building into then the founding of the Sisters of the Good Samaritan.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:16.960
So I think one of his great partnerships was with Mary Aikenhead prior to his departure or in advance of his departure.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:24.319
He approached her because, you know, these were the first sisters in Ireland, I believe, that were actually not enclosed.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:32.160
And Mary Aikenhead's Sisters of Charity had a fourth vow, and their fourth vow that they took was service of the poor.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:43.759
So not being a closed order, they were known as the walking nuns in Ireland, and they moved into the streets, into homes, into jails, into hospitals.
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:54.000
And I think he could see that these were the people, these were the sisters, I beg your pardon, who could really be part of this mission in Australia and could cope with the situation in Australia.
00:23:54.079 --> 00:24:00.480
So I think that partnership was a really valuable one, you know, for the colony and for particularly for women in the colony.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:08.640
So there were some charities that came out with him on the boat because he'd already had that conversation with Mary Aikenhead before he even arrived in Australia.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:09.200
Is that right?
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:12.160
I made a mistake earlier in the cathedral.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.920
No, the charities arrived in 1838, he arrived in 1835.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:16.880
My mistake.
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:28.559
But on that point, I think that holding the Benedictine who wanted everybody to be Benedictine was the holding who, when he slowed down and took a deep breath, realized that probably wasn't going to happen.
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.079
And I think he was big enough to finally recognise that.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:37.440
And there are numerous accounts where he would apologize or he would, you know, say, all right, let's carry on.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:37.920
Of course.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:45.359
But I also think it's testimony to the strength of those women, particularly the charities, who said to his face, no, we're not going to do that.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:46.960
We're not going to be Benedictines.
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.920
We're Irish sisters of charity, and that's who we are.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.559
And I can totally understand his point of view on one point.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.640
I can't understand why anyone else would not want to be Benedictine too at the same time.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:01.920
As you were saying before, I recognize that it's just one expression, and he would have done the same.
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:02.640
Yes.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:07.119
And he, I think he sort of came to the point where, all right, well, okay, okay, okay.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.599
By which time, you know, you've got other religious orders and congregations coming into this country.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:26.319
But you know, there's another side of the whole story as well, is that it was effectively a lay Catholic community until Paulding really got here and began to implement or bring in the institutional church, which was part of the mission.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:38.400
But I don't think he ever lost sight of the importance of lay Catholics, because you know, the reality was most people had little access to the clergy anyway, particularly out in the rural areas.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:39.279
And he knew that.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:54.160
So I think he valued the role of catechists, the handing on of the faith, and remembering that the religious communities, the non-clerical religious communities, are essentially communities of lay men and women who group together with a common religious purpose.
00:25:54.319 --> 00:26:12.319
And I think he valued that, which puts him in one sense at odds with many elements, particularly from the Irish side, that developed a very strong clericalist sense because it was so linked to a re-emergence of Irish nationalism and it set them up in that way.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.119
And it was a strong community focus and all of that thing.
00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:25.200
But I think Polding had a far more gentle approach, and I think he had a very deep appreciation of the gifts and talents of those who were not necessarily clergy.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:26.079
Yeah.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.640
On that, so let's go back to that relationship with Mother Scholastica Gibbons.
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:31.920
How did that emerge?
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:42.240
Well, look, I think Polding on the mission was looking for co-workers who would work with him to start something and then would continue it.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:52.160
And of course, Scholastica Gibbons was this incredible woman, blessed by grace and nature to use that phrase, and at a skilled administrator.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:58.559
And of course, she was integral to doing the work of the Sisters of Charity with the poor in Sydney.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:12.000
And he met her, of course, at the Good Shepherd Refuge and saw in her the talents, the gifts, the missionary zeal that he wanted to work with.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:25.920
And with the work that had already been happening around the Haymarket and Campbell Street with the first Good Shepherd Refuge, he saw the need was there, and the need was being addressed in a number of ways already.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:29.440
I think Polding wanted to support that work.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.920
I don't think he wanted to come in and take it over.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.799
He wanted to support it and help it develop and grow.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:48.640
And as a man of his time, I think he believed the best way to do that was to found a congregation of religious women who would minister to women on the streets, sex workers, what we would call victims of domestic abuse, that sort of thing.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:55.680
And Scholastica Givens was the woman who appeared to be the best co-worker with him.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.960
And when I say co-worker, I mean a co-worker.
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:00.880
She was not his subordinate.
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:05.920
She was an incredibly tactful, diplomatic, but strong woman.
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.599
I mean, that story when he says, Why won't you wear the Benedictine habit?
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:10.240
Or would you?
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:11.519
And she said, No, I won't.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:13.759
I'm a charity sister, I'm not a good Samaritan.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:15.039
I think he would have gone.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:26.079
I think he developed a good partnership with her because he could see that this need in Sydney was not going away.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:32.240
And there was a need to have more sisters on board and more help on board for the women of Sydney.
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:42.160
At the same time, I think Australia in the 1840s and into the 1850s was going through a major economic recession.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.480
Poverty was so widespread.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:53.599
And until the advent of the gold rush in the 1850s, Sydney was a grim place to be, was not a pleasant place to be.
00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:04.240
So polding saw consecrated religious women within an institution that had a place within the Catholic Church that had a recognized canonical place.
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:16.160
That meant it came under some sort of episcopal protection, if you like, would provide a security for continuing the missionary work in the event that others were unable to continue.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.119
Now, I've got no historical evidence to support that.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:20.720
It's just a thought that I have.
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:34.319
But I think it fits with the time and with holding believing that the missionary work was guided by the spirit, that the spirit would lead, and he would follow where the spirit led.
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:39.200
And I don't think at any point he ever was into empire building or anything like that.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.160
The need was there, the missionary work was to be done.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:44.880
He would follow the promptings of the spirit to do it.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:56.319
And I think that's where it led him to Scholastica Gibbons, and it led them to then create, under his original idea, congregation of active Benedictine women.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:13.680
And of course, she was essentially the leader of two congregations then in the early stages of the Good Samaritans, because she was still leading and the head of the charities, while then developing alongside holding these new forms of religious women as the Sisters of the Good Samaritan.
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.960
And running St.
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.319
Vincent's Hospital.
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:19.839
Well, exactly.
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:21.920
I don't know.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:37.279
What that partnership meant was when we keep our eye on the bigger picture as well, was that thousands of women were able to find shelter and start a new life because of that partnership between holding and scholastica gibbons.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:46.319
And the fact that more than a few of the women who came into the refuge asked to stay and did so for the rest of their lives.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.440
And that seems to be a pattern that developed through St.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:51.359
Magdalene's at Tempe as well.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:54.640
More than a few of the women stayed there for the rest of their lives.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:58.160
They found a community, they found a family, and they stayed there.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:09.200
And again, I think that's testament to Polding's vision and his ability that once the work had started and was flourishing, he stepped back.
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:10.960
I think that's an extraordinary thing.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:29.440
When I think of his some of his contemporary bishops, particularly in Bathurst and Brisbane, who micromanaged every aspect of their diocese to the point where we know that the story with Mary McKillop that you know she couldn't work in Brisbane, so she left.
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:32.400
And the split with the Josephites in Bathurst.
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:34.319
Holding was never like that.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:43.519
And I think that also points to bigness of heart and bigness of spirit, and his own trust that the work would flourish as God wanted it to flourish.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:45.680
To me, that's one of his greatest.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:32:04.079
It's a really empowering model of leadership, and that with those benedicting qualities coming through, that subsidiarity of knowing, yep, stepping back, letting the local do what they do best and where they have the knowledge, and you know, dropping in for support and mentoring and all that sort of thing, but still allowing it to flourish where it's rooted.
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:18.480
I think one of the other benedicting qualities we find when we really kind of dig into some of Holding's story is the engagement he had with the Indigenous community of Australia and how he was able to meet them as equals and advocate for them.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:28.480
As we're coming up to the date's not set yet, but a lot of discussion around bringing a voice to a more authentic voice for our Indigenous people.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:34.400
What stories have you got to tell us about Holdings engagement with our Indigenous communities in Australia?
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:40.960
Well, he definitely showed a genuine concern for the welfare and rights of Indigenous peoples.
00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:44.720
I think he was one of very few people who advocated for them at the time.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.759
So I think he was the man before his time.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:08.640
He recognized the First Nations peoples were being dispossessed of their land, and he really had a deep compassion.
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:16.720
He followed that up in Lenten Pastoral in 1849, which is essentially addressed to the Catholics of the diocese.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:29.039
And he says that the wretched, unfortunate Aborigines of the country, the first occupants of the lands over which your flocks and herds now roam, have a very strong claim upon you.
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:35.920
Nor will the Lord hold you innocent if you have not used your best endeavors to promote their temporal and eternal well-being.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:42.240
That's nearly 165 years before the recognition of the stolen generations.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:59.440
I mean, gee, the man's human humanity, the man's humility and his ableness to see the image and likeness of God in First Nations Australians in 1849 is powerful.
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:07.599
I imagine there were many Catholics that could see, but he used his voice.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:16.400
Almost in that statement, that pastor statement, there's echoes of John Paul's statement at Uluru in the 80s.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:25.760
Well, our community will never be fully itself without the recognition and the voice of our First Nations people and how much we have to benefit from that.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:26.880
Absolutely.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.079
Absolutely.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.599
I think he saw everybody for who they were.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:35.360
Like he valued the dignity and integrity of everybody.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:45.920
So, you know, I really do believe that he stood strongly in word and action for everybody in the community, particularly those on the margins, and particularly for our First Nations peoples at the time.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:46.400
Yeah.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:35:10.559
And having said all of that, you know, I think it's also important to remember that in his role as archbishop, he was a loyal and faithful Catholic in the sense of he was a middle to late 19th century Catholic bishop, Roman Catholic bishop, in a church that still held that everybody outside the Catholic Church was at best possibly saved.
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:11.119
Yes.
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:19.360
And you know, you've got the 1869 council meeting in Australia where the bishops pushed very hard for the mixed marriages.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.639
No, send your kids to Catholic schools, all the rest of it.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:28.880
So, you know, he really was also at the same time a man of the church of his own day and age.
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:30.320
A man of his time.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.559
And I think it's important to recognize that so that we don't pathologize him.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:43.280
I mean, he was able to walk in two worlds, but at the heart of all of it, he never lost that graciousness that I think pervaded everything.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:44.800
That was who he was.
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:46.320
Yeah, it's interesting.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.960
In April earlier this year, I had the pleasure of visiting Dowie Abbey.
00:35:51.119 --> 00:36:00.000
Myself and the other visiting pilgrims were given a talk about 19th century Benedictines, including polding, from one of the English monks there.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.960
And they gave a less than flattering overview of polling from the English perspective.
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:07.119
And for me, two things became very clear.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:15.280
Firstly, even though, as our country are trying to peel back those layers of the colonial mindset, the English have no other way of seeing the world.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.719
That's who they have been forever, which illuminates the second boot.
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:26.480
That I was quite shocked about the revelation that the English Benedictines see Polding essentially as a failure.
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:32.880
What's your reaction to hearing that quite jarring kind of reflection on Polding's ministry here in Australia?
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.920
And what do you think Polding's legacy is?
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:44.960
I well, I'm sitting on the other side of the world in Australia, and I hear that.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:50.960
And I think my first reaction is then I don't think you've understood anything about his mission.
00:36:51.199 --> 00:37:08.159
Well, because they saw his mission, they understood his mission, regardless of the Archbishop of Sydney element, they saw his Benedictine mission as planting Benedictine monastic life in its English sense of that idea, whole as bolas in Australia, then it should flourish from there.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.079
And of course, it didn't happen that way.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:11.440
No, it didn't.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:26.800
It's a bit sad that they can't see that holding established a form of Benedictine life that is an authentic development of the tradition in a new environment for a new time and a new purpose.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:34.800
I think, you know, the romantic vision of establishing English Benedictinism in Australia is precisely that it's a fantasy.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:55.199
But he followed the promptings of the spirit, and the spirit did what the spirit does, and she opened up whole new ways, and we are the beneficiaries of that.
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:57.679
Well, that's it.
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:11.039
I mean, I raised my hand and it's like, well, we have really a very much more warm um reflection or impression of holding, and I kind of got the the look down the nose, like, oh yes, we know that's true.
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.119
We we know that's how you see him, but that's not reality from our point of view.
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:25.920
The following day I was talking to the archivist from Downside, who is in the early stages of writing a book about holding, so stay tuned, and who I was very much encouraging he had to come to Australia when he gets to that stage.
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:40.719
And I was saying to him, it's like we are the beneficiaries, but also the new revelation of that expression as Good Samaritans here in Australia as the new a way of being benedictine that is for this place, which is very Benedictine.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.079
It's for this place.
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.599
So yeah, that's it's really interesting.
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:48.320
Yeah.
00:38:48.559 --> 00:39:00.320
I guess when I first heard that, I felt a bit sad because I don't think the English Benedictines really understood the um scale of Paulding's mission here in Australia and what Australia was actually like.
00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:00.880
Oh yeah.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:09.599
I think the needs of the colony were far greater than the Benedictine dream, the sense that we're going to set up, transplant what was in the UK to this nation.
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:17.039
I think there was too few priests, and you know, the challenge with the Irish clergy as well for Paulding was a bit tricky.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.400
But what I think is the greatness of Paulding actually lies in that he never unwavered from his mission.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:23.599
He stuck to his mission.
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:31.599
So that's why it kind of saddens me that you know the English have that jarring take on Paulding because he was about service to God and service to the community.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:38.800
And there's that lovely quote about him that says he had a passion for the reign of God and compassion for the people of God.
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:40.159
I'd agree with that 100%.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:58.400
And look, I think if anything, polling demonstrates not just the flexibility of Benedict's vision, but also his faithfulness to listening in his lectio and in his prayer, listening to the spirit and listening to the voice of Christ, urging him.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:03.440
I keep hearing that wonderful phrase from the lentin, the pastor of 1874.
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:09.039
You know, do we not feel a call to become the ministers of Christ's mercy, the messengers of Christ's compassion?
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.119
That to me is what drove him.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:12.719
That's what compelled him.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.000
And that ability for him to see Christ in the other.
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.960
That profound humility, the hospitality that he showed to everybody.
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:32.000
Well, he certainly seems to be, while a man of his times, being able to read the signs of his times and the lay of the land and what the promptings of the spirit was.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:37.119
We know he had some failings and some failures too, and didn't always get that right.
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.440
But I mean, none of us do all the time.
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:44.239
I think he comes across as a very human, human being, which is a good thing to be.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:53.679
And as we say, we don't want to deify him in that respect, but we are very proud of the legacy that he has left in our hands as well as we continue.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:02.239
Now, as we're wrapping up, there's one question I ask of all of my guests on Communio Calling, and it is do you have a favorite?
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.679
Now it might be your favorite today or your favorite of all time.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:08.960
Quote from the rule of Benedict, and why?
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:11.599
Too many to choose from.
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:23.280
I like in chapter 72, the verse that goes, let them prefer nothing, whatever, to Christ, and may Christ bring us all together to everlasting life.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:32.400
So I just love that because you know it just shows the Christ-centeredness of Benedict's rule, but that whole communal seeking of God together as well.
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:33.199
What about you?
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.239
What have you what riches have you got for us today, Paul?
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:38.239
Well, Franz already said it.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:40.480
That's the one that always comes to mind.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:49.920
And for the same reasons, let us prefer nothing whatever to Christ, and may Christ bring us all together to everlasting life.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:56.320
We use it here as one of our blessings at the end of prayer, and I just think it says everything.
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:22.000
I think in the Us is Polding and Scholastica Gibbons, is Benedict, is Scholastica, is the whole communion of the Benedictine family, of the Good Samaritan family, and especially here at Rosebank, with the presence of the original Good Samaritan sisters with us and Mother Scholastica, you know, that communion of saints with us here, yeah, bring us all together to everlasting life.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.840
That all is the clincher, just that three-letter word, all.
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:27.119
Absolutely.
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.440
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure talking about polling with you today.
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.679
And I'm sure we will uh talk again.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:46.800
And for those of you that have had the pleasure already of joining one of the Sydney pilgrimages, you'll hear more of polding, and hopefully you'll get a chance along the way to join one of the pilgrimages as we continue them throughout the years.
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.320
Thanks again.
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:49.920
Thank you, Gabrielle.
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.559
Thank you, Fran.
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:52.079
Thank you, Paul.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:53.440
Thank you, Gabriel.
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.639
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:09.199
It's so great to get stuck into some of the stories about holding and hear a bit more of that whole person.
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:38.480
It's important not to deify our important people, our legends, as it were, in our community, but to really hear the stories of the full person and to know that those realities are possible in everyday life and to hear the story of that Benedictine mission, that living out, that listening to the signs of the times, that perseverance and understanding of the spirit in everyday life, to hear the signs of the times and to work with it.
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:50.480
And hearing that model of leadership where it was possible to empower so many different people and so many different ministries along the way, and then to step back and allow them to meet the needs of the local community.
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:59.039
So I hope you enjoyed that conversation and learned a bit more about polding and our history and foundation of our community and who we are.
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:04.239
So I hope this conversation has sparked some new insights about John B.
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:14.639
Polding, so that as you go along your day, that the transforming table of hospitality be wide, inspiring you with mercy and compassion to go and do likewise.
