Katie Marshall: Hi Sienna, welcome to Commonplace, it's so lovely to have you here.
Sienna Wells: Thank you for having me. very, excited to get to happen today.
Katie Marshall: it yeah I mean when I thought of you as a guest I thought this is very sort of sienna territory so it's wonderful to have you finally here. I mean I bumped into you very briefly at the first book fair which was an amazing experience for me to see to see all those stalls especially all the work you've done as well but for people who don't know you could you just briefly introduce yourself and your work.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, of course. So I'm a medieval manuscript dealer and historian, and I specialize in manuscripts produced in medieval Europe within a Christian context. And I work at Tom W. Ailing, which is a bookshop based in South Oxfordshire in England. And I run the medieval and Renaissance manuscript department. And I've been working in the Antichrist book trade since the winter of 2024. So yeah, that's a bit of me.
Katie Marshall: Yeah. Yes. And a lot of people will probably have seen your social media. I mean, you do such a beautiful job of really displaying how bright and vibrant the medieval period was. I mean, I think the dark ages conception has completely gone now if anyone really ever believed it, but yeah. So you really sort of make us believe in these as living objects, which I think is really brilliant, you and I'm looking forward to talking more about that. But what sort of sparked your interest specifically in sort of medieval and Renaissance prints?
Sienna Wells: So I've been interested in books for a really long time, but it was at university which really sparked my interest in the history of books, pre-printing press. And if I'm honest, it wasn't just like a spark, it was like this inferno that happened. And I initially studied English literature and creative writing for my undergraduate. I did a module in the history of art with literature, which kind of shifted my focus away from writing to look at the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood's interpretation of witches, which was really interesting. But with that change of direction, I decided to study the history of art for my MA part time at the University of Bristol. And at that kind of point, I was starting to work in museums and art galleries and a variety of different roles from working in art camps, curatorial, archival, duty manager. And I really thought curating was what I want to do when I work in art world so every time every hour that I was at university I was trying to break into that industry but one of my lecturers at the time during my MA made this passing comment about Nick's Rowland's books and he was the Chancellor for Philip the Good in the 15th century. And I'd never come across medieval books before, but when I went home I just started looking at them and I didn't really have a clue what I was looking at, because it was just something so enchanting and different about them compared to, you know, a printed book that we have now. And this bled into this kind full-blown obsession which completely changed what I wanted to specialise in. So I... learn every single thing that I possibly could about medieval books just so then I could understand them and then produce a dissertation on them, you know, from the imagery, the structure, some Latin, paleography, how they were made, who was making them. And it was from that point I just, knew I had to work with them somehow. So I did everything in my power to make that happen and yeah, I'm here now.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, I mean, it's really amazing that journey because I mean, you can see the creative writing influence in the way that you sort of you tell the story of the object and their afterlife. It's not all about sort technical processes, is it? It's about the people behind them and who touched them and why they kept them the way they did.
Sienna Wells: Exactly, that's what's really important to me, is to kind of draw out those other stories that are in them because as objects they're amazing but there's so much more to them.
Katie Marshall: Yes. I mean, I think it's quite a new field, isn't it? Because I did a material culture module in my final year at Cambridge and I chose to cheat print and sort of ephemera as my focus. yeah, I mean, obviously the loss rate is a lot higher than some of the manuscripts you're looking at, but it's still that idea of the book being part of life and not just sort of created and that's the end of it. know, they're part of the social and the technological processes of the period, aren't they? And everything that came afterwards, including us really.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, they're fantastic and they live multiple lives. That's something that I always say.
Katie Marshall: So what's one of the biggest challenges that you've come across? You're quite sort of new to this field, but I mean already like incredibly knowledgeable obviously about these sort of manuscripts. What's one of the biggest challenges you've encountered in your work and especially with dealing with these sort of illuminated manuscripts?
Sienna Wells: think genuinely there's just so many things to learn and to know about in terms of medieval books from the imagery, paleography, Latin, and you can like specialise within those groups so deeply. The types of books that you get, the text, and it's such a huge expense of time that these books are being produced and I genuinely really love learning, but I'm someone that puts a lot of pressure on myself to know everything all at once and particularly when I enjoy it. But that just stems from, you know, high sense of curiosity and wonder. But I also have so much care for the subject. And because I haven't come from a traditional background in it, I kind of I'm very guilty of just swamping myself with information because I just want to know everything now. I remember a scholar once said to me that the feeling of anxiety or feeling like you're out of depth is actually a really great thing because it means that your brain is being exposed to new information and what a joy and privilege that is. And the more you start to learn something, the more you realise you don't know, but it's taking that opportunity to kind of step back and then grow and learn. And rather than be frightened, be like, oh no, it's too much. It's just embracing that feeling of, this is just new information coming my way. So I'm definitely a product of my own work, but more importantly, those around me who've helped and shown me things. And I think it's that desire for knowledge and learning that won't go away. So it's a good thing, but it definitely is something that I battle with myself quite a lot. Cause I do just go, oh, I want to know it now.
Katie Marshall: No, but it's so great. I mean, we always think that people above us, you they know everything, but they're constantly learning and doubting themselves as well. I mean, it spurs you on and it makes you a better version of yourself. And sometimes it's hard to forget to look back really and see how far you've come. I mean, it is really incredible in such a short amount of time. But yeah, it's so multidisciplinary as well, the work that you do. So the fact that you're so interested genuinely in all areas of it really, I think shows and shines through.
Sienna Wells: Okay, yeah, it's honestly, been such a, it's like a pinch me moment all the time. And it is lovely because yeah, there's just so much to learn. So many people are willing to share, which is just really, really beautiful. So I very lucky, but it's just trying to remind myself as part of the process and you never stop learning. You never stop learning.
Katie Marshall: No, I mean, a lot of these books, not so much is unknown about them. And I say like our attitudes towards the books is changing quite quickly as well. Like if we think about the 19th century, they were so against the marks and all the different inscriptions that you sort of thrive off in your work nowadays, that you have such a different idea about how valuable they are, don't we? They're not seen as dirty books anymore. They're seen as insights into stories, like little wormholes, aren't they, into the past? Yeah.
Sienna Wells: No exactly, they're rich, they're so rich. Yeah, stories and people, so it's true.
Katie Marshall: Yeah. could you talk a little bit about some misconceptions about medieval manuscripts and maybe the literary culture of the time that these books were made in?
Sienna Wells: Yeah, so I guess this one might sound a little bit bizarre, but I think sometimes people forget that medieval manuscripts are books, objects, and there's this idea that they're perfect, but that's just that's not the reality. And I think the majority of time people's interactions with medieval manuscripts are perhaps in a museum display, like one section is open, it's behind some glass and often the glass might be dark and then you walk up to it and it lights up because it's to protect the book. And the ones that are often picked are very, very beautifully decorated and some very, very affluent provenance. But they... And the ones that aren't on display are often hidden in archives or in libraries and you can get them brought up for research. again, it's just, you don't have that same feeling that they've kind of lost that interactive and tactile quality. And this is for preservation reasons, but these were objects that were made to be held and to be used, some for display, sure, but they were destined for hands and they are a product of being made by hands, all parts. And I think that's what they're very subject to human error. This kind of perfection idea isn't the reality because there'd be mistakes such as spelling or bits of text that's missed out and recopied or people having fun and drawing things and things being found in the wrong order. But you don't always hear that side of things. And the same goes for the people that own these books, the kinds of medieval books that we're used to really hearing about, you know, maybe in the news or in these books. beautiful displays are ones that are commissioned and owned by a royal patron for example and while these manuscripts are still spectacular in terms of provenance and technical skill that isn't where the story ends there's just not very good records of medieval manuscripts owned by less affluent members of society and that doesn't mean that they didn't exist you just have to be a bit more creative about finding them out so sometimes indirect evidence can help us learn a lot more about book ownership across various social classes. an example is there was a legal case that happened in London in, I think it was 1500, where Avis Godfrey was accused of stealing a book of hours from Elizabeth Second, who was a maid. So it's always like really important to just look below the surface of things rather than just taking things at face value. And in terms of like literacy, you know, Education was primarily accessible to more affluent members of society, as there was more generally a focus on practical skills in daily life, such as farming. But again, there would be exceptions. So I think the thing with the medieval period is just not everything is what it seems. And there's always more that you can go down and tease out. But it's just, if it's not direct, you've got to look in these other avenues to find things out.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, it's really interesting what you're saying about sort of mistakes as well, because a lot of catalogues, they sort of will list books in their perfect sort of ideal form, won't they? They won't sort of talk about the individual characteristics so much as to measure it against this idea of a perfect copy of this book and then sort of price them, I suppose, in the book trade according to that, which sort of devalues that story.
Sienna Wells: Mm. Mm. No, I think. No, no, exactly. I just think with mistakes, it's genuinely one of my favourite things to spot because it's just, it's that kind of portal to that's a person who they've, they've gone to work, say for their scribe and they've been copying things out and it's, it's quite a labour intensive job. And suddenly they've got something wrong. It's like, gosh, this is actually a really expensive mistake. And just like we would now, you might feel a bit panicked if it's going to cost your company or manager lots of money. you go, imagine just going home and be like, Oh, I've made a really expensive mistake. And I feel a bit rubbish about it. Or I've just started as a scribe and I'm finding it really challenging. And it's, it's just things like that. It's, just helps. dunno. So a reminder of these, these people who are producing them are just people and they aren't machines. They get it wrong and they have their own life and you can kind of get a tiny, tiny window into it. part of them and even without knowing their name you just get a sense of who they are so it's really nice.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, also our idea of what reading actually meant is probably very different in the medieval period, wasn't it, with the oral culture and sort of that idea of book hospitality and allowing people to use your library and reading sort of meaning reading aloud most of the time. I think we're probably not aware of the extent to which people engaged with these books in different ways, as there's no record of it.
Sienna Wells: No, exactly. You oral culture is so, so important in the history of books. And I think, again, like you say, just because the records aren't there, it doesn't mean it wasn't existing. It was. It was very, very important. And it was how a different way that people could interact with literature and a really important one, too, because a lot of these stories had kind of... things about general life and would help people through a literary basis. So yeah, it's really, really interesting. It's not, again, it's just not what you might think of it naturally, but there's just so many different layers to book culture.
Katie Marshall: Exactly, You mentioned the Book of Hours, which is obviously really sort of inspiring and thought provoking type of book from this period. they're often shown people holding them, aren't they? So they're not only beautiful and decorative, but they're also highly interactive and personal to people. So could you just talk a little bit about the medieval connection to the materiality of books?
Sienna Wells: it's such a wonderful thing. And I think it's genuine on my favourite topics. But I'll explain like about the Book of Hours first, because it's that is the kind of the vehicle for a lot of this touch relationship. the Book of Hours is considered to be a medieval bestseller and they ranged from simple to luxurious. They could be very pristine or well-thumbed. And they essentially are devotional manual designed for personal prayer containing offices and other religious texts called Hours. And each office is centered around a specific theme, such as the Virgin Mary, And the office of the Virgin Mary's was a particular favourite of the medieval period. And this contained psalms, reading and prayers. And it's a simplified version of the divine office that was adapted for everyday use by people not necessarily working within a religious context. And they use the term hours to refer to specific times of day that were designated for prayer and it followed kind of a daily structure that they would have in monasteries. but they were very much like portals to someone's interior. And you can learn a lot about a person without knowing their name. And so the one that I have in the office is a very, very small book of hours. And there's lots of signs of use for the office of the dead. And this would be used when someone died, this particular prayer cycle. And the first prayer was to be recited the night before a funeral. And the miniature opening this office shows a burial scene that has been rubbed extensively to the point where the pigment on the priest's have gone. the same with the body. And to me, this shows that this page was frequently returned to, perhaps the owner experienced a lot of death in their life or perhaps a very significant death, which greatly impacted them as they returned to this page in grief. And while we don't know their name, we can hold a piece of them that in our and you know 500 year old grief is something that we can really I don't know everyone can connect to and I think that's the thing about books it's there's just something so personal about them they would be passed down generations and sometimes different family lines would have one book that would go through them and people would write in the calendars like birthdays anniversaries of marriage of death and yeah they would kiss and rub miniatures as they were praying so it's like a really physical connection and you still get that with books now and I write in my books but it's just this kind of I think because the medieval period feels so distant and particularly these books can feel really distant you do get a sense of grief, hope, desire, everything which is what I love to see in books but again you don't always see it sometimes they're really pristine and really clean
Katie Marshall: you
Sienna Wells: And again, you can still learn something about somebody by how they kept their book. You know, if they didn't want to write it, that's a choice for them. And, you know, you'd have various degrees of interaction. And there's a scholar called Catherine Rudy, and she's an absolute pioneer in this field. And I highly recommend reading her on this subject. But in one of her papers, she suggested that
Katie Marshall: Mm.
Sienna Wells: Philip the Good, was the Duke of Burgundy in the 15th century, may have a step further by scraping off the pigment from the face of Christ in a manuscript by using a sharp instrument as it left the parchment bare. And she suggested that it's possible that these pigments were then diluted in water and then drunk by Philip the Good as a medicinal act of devotion and a spiritual food. So the kind of medieval connection to books was just very...
Katie Marshall: you
Sienna Wells: very physical sometimes and yeah, you learn so much about someone by how they have handled or haven't handled their book.
Katie Marshall: Thanks. I think we can relate to that so much in our sort technology saturated lives. I people turning back to journaling and really embracing that sort of sensory experience, know, of having a book in your hand. I don't know, I think you can, know, feel so different in our approach now. mean people, like I said, in the 19th century they would almost whitewash these sort of things out, wouldn't they? But we're losing that trail of human touch through the ages which really are as important as the book themselves, aren't they?
Sienna Wells: one. Yeah, yeah, think it's, you know, sometimes even with medieval manuscripts, sometimes you'll see a name, which is later, maybe perhaps from the 18th century, and there's ones that crossed out and then they've added their name. it's just, there's just something about how books travel through time and even having them now, we're all part of that history. And that will go on even though we're not writing in the books or I'm not writing about medieval books. It's still you're interacting and learning about them. and that kind of inserts you into that life cycle of that book. And it's just something that's really special. And I always say that medieval manuscripts, when you're looking at them, it's like reaching your hand through time and holding the hands of every single person that have come before. And some people are silent in their presence and some people are really loud. And every single person still matters, both from production, ownership. maybe it's in someone's drawer and it's just, you know, every single part of that history is so important and it's just kind of having a, sometimes an open mind to be like, you know, even if I can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Someone's been there at some point. So, yeah.
Katie Marshall: I mean, it's so true what you say, it is as physically close as we can get to people in history, touching the things they touched. mean, there's so much to think about, isn't it? Especially if it's somebody you feel connected to through their story. So kind of linking into this sort of seeing us as part of the life cycle of these books and carrying on their legacy. I'm sure there's something that you've come across as a sort of elephant in the room, I think for a lot of book dealers at the minute and museum creators is the change in attitude towards how we handle these books. I think we've turned away from using gloves, haven't we? So do you want to explain why this is and why touching them with your hands has become sort of normal practice now?
Sienna Wells: Yeah, this is a really good question. It's something I get asked quite a lot. And I guess in like simple terms, it's because we don't want to damage the books and manuscripts. And you you might see in films or in TV or in the news, people wearing gloves handle old, rare or valuable books, but it is all for show. The truth is that in all cases, wearing gloves increases the risk of damaging the book. because gloves provide an additional layer which reduces your sensitivity and manual dexterity. So it wouldn't be possible for you to turn the pages safely in a book or you can't really feel the pages that you're holding on to if you were wearing gloves. Also, gloves are no cleaner than hands. They retain more dirt and the fibres of the cotton gloves can really lift pigments and ink from the pages and transfer dirt from one book to another. know, leading libraries and museums around the world have published their advice on it and why gloves shouldn't be used in their reading rooms. And instead you should handle books with clean and dry hands. So give them a really good wash, dry them, and then that is the safest way. And unless you, you know, you're handling a book which has got something incredibly toxic on it, you know, if it's like an arsenic green binding, then yeah, wear gloves to handle that because that wouldn't be safe. But Generally it's safe practice to handle them without gloves.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of how the bookmakers intended, isn't it? It's the most natural way of handling them. mean, they've lasted all these centuries with people holding them and doing much more to them, haven't they, than us being so gentle and holding them like this precious object now.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think it's just when like with the book of hours I have in the office, it's tiny. And if I was wearing gloves, I just wouldn't be able to safely turn it. And yeah, you've got to just be able to feel it. it's just, yeah, it's just so much better for the object. And otherwise, you know, you do run the risk of ripping it or putting it in some way. And yeah, so best practice just clean, clean, hands.
Katie Marshall: their sensitivity. Thank you for clearing that up. think a lot of people still, I think, question themselves or double check, you know, when they see it. So we're so used to that idea. So could you talk a little bit, because I think that there's still this assumption that scribes and, you know, guild members and monks, obviously monks are always male, but I mean, the book trade itself was very male dominated. So do you want to talk a bit about the involvement of women in the book trade and production?
Sienna Wells: This is honestly my favourite topic. And it's basically there's a very common perception that men were the makers of medieval manuscripts, particularly when there's an unnamed scribe or illuminator. People just tend to assume they're male, but this is not always the case. Women existed as scribes, illuminator, book traders, runners of workshops, and they thrived. One piece of evidence that we have for female scribes is through colophons. And that's kind of a note that is left behind by a scribe and it sometimes supplies information such as a name. There's a really, really interesting study that the University of Bergen did in 2025 and they determined that at least 110,000 manuscripts were copied by female scribes based on colophons, of which 8,000 should still exist. And they mentioned a colophon from a female scribe named Birgitta in the 15th century. And her colophon said something along the lines of, you know, I'm a nun in a monastery at Munkaleve at Bergen. And she'd written this solta with initials, but not as well as she'd ought or something like that. And you just get that tiny, tiny glimpse. into, again, somebody and their life. But another way that they could be identified was by referring to themselves as a scriptrix. And that's a female scribe or soro, which means sister in Latin. you know, like you said, medieval book trade was regulated by the establishment of guilds. And there are some examples of guild records, which gives us an insight into the operations of the early book trade and into women's involvement in this. There was the Guild of St. John the Evangelist and from the 15th century in Bruges, it was required that anyone working in the book trade had to join. So between 1454 and 1500, women made up a quarter of its members and they were named apprentices, illuminators, owners of workshops, such as Christine Burns, who was an illuminator. And she ran a workshop around the late 15th century and she trained men and women as illuminators. So it's really important that if we see an unnamed work, which you do most of the time, we don't assume it was created by a man. And I think it's just like that constant questioning. You you've got Gude, she was a German nun, an illuminator from the 12th century. And she's known for creating one of the earliest signed self-portraits. And it's just like, I only found out about her in the last few years. And it's just, you know.
Katie Marshall: Yeah.
Sienna Wells: How? It's such an amazing thing. And she has a line she wrote in under her portrait saying, Gouda, a sinner, wrote and painted this book. And, you know, it isn't just people that were creating the books, but also people who were authoring things. You Marjorie Kemp authored the Book of Marjorie Kemp, which is known as the earliest surviving autobiography written by women in English. And she was born around the mid 14th century. And then you've got Christine de Pizan, who is considered to be the earliest professional female author. And it's just all these amazing women in medieval history, I think, are now more and more people are starting to do more research and attitudes are starting to change. But certainly, do, you know, when I have conversations with people, is a knee-jerk reaction. People go, he, he's a great illuminator. And I'm just like, you don't know, you don't know. And I think...
Katie Marshall: Yes. Yeah, I always come back to the quote by Virginia Woolf that anonymous is always a woman.
Sienna Wells: Yes, no exactly. And I think it's so important to question. And I think I feel particularly passionate about it because, you know, I'm a woman in the book trade and I feel like I'm continuing this tradition of women in these spaces. And yeah, this was really special to know that, you know, the time period I studied women were there and they were doing really amazing things.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure that, you know, they'd be thrilled with the work you've been doing. I'm sure that, you know, I mean, obviously that's a history waiting to be fully told. And that's exciting in itself, but it's a shame that, as you say, it's taken this long to really recognise these women and how incredibly influential they were. mean, Christine Depizan has obviously been recognised for quite a while, but I'm sure there are lots of women who were equally as amazing as her and, you know, really impacted print culture throughout the medieval period.
Sienna Wells: exactly.
Katie Marshall: So I think commonplace books are actually something that is a great insight into the lives of women and what they read. So if you could have access to anyone's commonplace book throughout history as a sort of insight into their working life, their personal thoughts, who would that be?
Sienna Wells: This is a really hard question because there is genuinely so many people that I would be really interested in knowing about. But I guess if I had to one right now, it'd probably be Christine Burns, the illuminator that ran the workshop around the late 15th century and was training people. I just think it'd be really interesting to get an insight into what inspired her, what was going on around her, what was her life like and... what was she thinking about? And particularly as, you a woman heading a workshop, it just, there's just something about it. And I think I've got a name and her occupation, but the rest is unknown. And it's just, it's things like that. I really love, I'm so curious to understand people and know people. And I think, I've got this kind of glimpse of her, I'm like, I really want to know more. Because again, it can also teach us so much about. book trade, how it operated and just understanding, you know, women who was doing amazing things in that time. Yeah, I'd love hers.
Katie Marshall: Yes. And it'd be nice to ask her sort of how she got interested in this world as well, like what triggered her. obviously, you know, having a name in occupation is really annoying. Just, you know, it's so little, but I mean, you can imagine so much, can't you, the endless possibilities of what her day-to-day life was and her interactions and her conversations and what she was reading. it's... Yeah.
Sienna Wells: what she was enjoying and you know, did she like to paint a certain thing or something she was like, I don't want to do that. Those little things that just make people who they are.
Katie Marshall: Yes. And not another one. Yes, yeah. So, should we touch on a little bit about what makes you who you are in your commonplace book? Because I think you'll have some really great insights. I mean, one question I kind of want to bring into this before I talk about what your commonplace book would look like is how would you describe yourself as a person?
Sienna Wells: Ooh, that's a good question. I would describe myself as curious. I'm very, very, curious and both academically and also in people. Curious and hmm. I just I love to understand and to learn and that, yeah, transcends every aspect of my life. I don't think we'll ever go away. Very hopeful and positive. And that's something that I like to try to be. yeah, think curiosity, curious is the biggest thing in my life.
Katie Marshall: No. Yeah, vital, yeah. So what would your commonplace book look like? Obviously you've looked at so many books and I'm sure you have an idea of the sort of aesthetic that you choose for your commonplace book.
Sienna Wells: Again, this is a really cool question because I get to think about all the lovely books that I get to handle. But I think in terms of binding, I really like cathedral bindings. They're beautiful. They've got the shape of a cathedral on the front. And I really love dark brown leather, lots of gilt decorations, lettering, gilt edges. And if I was going to go further, I would.
Katie Marshall: you
Sienna Wells: I would have parchment pages, just because I feel like it would be wrong if I didn't. And, you know, there'd be a really nice illumination perhaps on the front page of just lots of amazing medieval women. Because I think, you know, that's something I really care about. And yeah, that would be really, really fun. And maybe a nice clasp, really over the top.
Katie Marshall: Yep. Yep. Mmm. Yeah, I love how specific it was, I wouldn't expect any less. So we talked about, I mean, if people had your commonplace book, would it be sort of well-formed or would it be sort of pristine?
Sienna Wells: I'll be so well-thumbed. I'm someone that my books at home or my journals are not destroyed, but they are, you know, I break spines of my own books and I write in them. put, you know, if it's a journal, I put things in it like flowers or...
Katie Marshall: Yeah. for love. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: pictures, I write over everything. it would be, I have a very tactile relationship with my books and my commonplace book would definitely reflect that. Otherwise I feel like it just, wouldn't be me.
Katie Marshall: Yes. No, no, course. Yeah. So if you were to record like a particular philosophy or a quote, is there one that stands out that's had an impact on your life when you're working or your personal life really?
Sienna Wells: It's funny because I used to genuinely love a quote when I was little. I used to print off pages and pages and pages of quotes and I collaged them all over my wall by my bed and put them all over my ceiling as well so I could read them. But first I think of one. inspires me. I think it's the I'm not afraid of storms, I'm learning how to sail my ship by Louisa May, or cop little women, wrote this women and it's, yeah, it's just something about, you know, some things are out of your control, like the weather. And some conditions are really hard. But it's just about how you move through it. And it's, you know, I like to think of that during hard times, both if I'm struggling with something at work or in my personal life. think it's just, it's a voice that speaks to me quite a lot. It's, know, wherever it is, I can do this. And it's just about learning and adapting and moving forward.
Katie Marshall: It's very similar to the idea of that other quote, is trees bending with the wind and not snapping, isn't it? It's moving with the things you can't control instead of trying to force your way back against them. It just makes things doubly as worse. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: Yes. No, exactly. I think it's, yeah, things like that. I love just hope, hope as well and perseverance. Mm, exactly.
Katie Marshall: Yes, yeah, nothing's permanent. Yeah. So obviously you're very, have a very good idea about sort of visual culture and probably what you like in that area as well. So what about one photograph or even a copy of a piece of art that you could put into your commonplace book that you'd like to keep coming back to?
Sienna Wells: I think a photograph would be a photograph of my mum, my granddad and myself all dancing together. It was at my Nana's birthday and she was sitting in the kitchen. And that's a photograph. It's obviously a personal one. I'd put it in there because it just... Both my mum and my granddad are really key figures in my life. They inspire me so much. And also it was a nice memory, but my granddad is a really big history fan and he would talk to me for hours and hours and hours about different historical things, both to do with our family and just general history. And my mum, when I was growing up, would take me to lots of different historical sites. So that's a really key thing for me is they both kind of brought me into this curiosity and wanting to see and understand and be part of it. So yeah, and they're such amazing and kind people. So that would definitely be it. Yeah.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, lovely. Yeah, that's perfect because it's reminding you also why you're doing everything and what's what's led you to this point really
Sienna Wells: Exactly.
Katie Marshall: So what about music? Is it something that you turn to when you're wanting to uplift yourself? Is it something you listen to while you're working? What's sort of your relationship to music?
Sienna Wells: I've got such a deep connection to music. I think particular songs for me really... will take me back to a particular moment and if I listen to them again I'm almost like transported there and there's a song called Outro by M83 and that's probably one of the most emotionally charged ones for me because I did the Brighton Marathon back in April for the charity Refuge and I had rolled my ankle and my tracker wasn't working and I was in a lot of pain so I was really just going off of I think I'm near the end and I've just got to keep going and you you've gone through months and months of training whilst you know working as well so I'd be getting up at ridiculous hours so I could run before work or run after work.
Katie Marshall: Huh.
Sienna Wells: and running for a charity also made it a really big moment. And that song came on on the kind of the final bit of the marathon. And I was just a bit, I was, I was gone. I was in so much pain. And someone shouted to me to look up. They were like, look up, up, look up. The finish line's ahead of you. And I was listening to that song and there's a moment in it when it goes like really quiet. You can't just really hear anything. just then the crowds were starting to yell and It was so, so then the song started to build up again. So I took one head by now and was just listening to both. And honestly, it was just such a big moment. And the line came up like, now and forever I'm your king as I crossed the line. And I just cried my eyes out. I felt so emotional and it was a poignant moment I'll never forget.
Katie Marshall: So well. Wow. I the timing of music can be so strange sometimes how it pops up in your live content. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, I know. It was a really amazing song. My headphones were on shuffle and I don't actually remember most of the music I heard during the marathon because I was just trying to get through it. It's the last 10k, which is really hard. I think because of, you know, working and running and doing other hobbies, it'd been such an intense time that it was just this cathartic moment. So that's a special song to me.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, absolutely. I imagine every time you listen to it now, you can remember that moment where somebody shouted out and then the crowd coming over. Yeah, how magical to make it like your song in a way to have that kind of soundtrack over the song. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, no, I always think back to that moment. I was listening to it in the car this morning and it just it's like this transportation back in time. Yeah.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, like a movie scene. Yeah. We're in main character moment.
Sienna Wells: Yeah.
Katie Marshall: So what about a particular place in the world if you could have a postcard, where would that be from?
Sienna Wells: Definitely from Geneva. I went there a few years ago, my first ever solo trip and I was going through quite a tough time and so that place holds a lot of significance to me. I booked it last minute and I was like, I'm going, let's just go for it and see what it's like and I decided on that trip. like, I'm gonna just...
Katie Marshall: Mm.
Sienna Wells: go for a time of change. So I'm going to do this and I'll be fine. I'm going to get through it, but I'm going to change my life and it's going to be okay. And I was staying in this really small village, actually out of the city. And I was there during the summer solstice and I went out at night and the moon was really bright and there was no one around. It was just so quiet. It was such a sleepy little village. And I just remember like skipping and twirling down the road listening to
Katie Marshall: Thank you.
Sienna Wells: to the, I think it's the end of beginning. And I just was like, I know it's going to be okay. So a postcard from there, that would be what was going in.
Katie Marshall: Yeah. I love that detail, that sounds like something that I would do. I'm glad somebody gets it, you know, when you're completely alone and you're just like, yeah, it's so magical when you can just do that and yeah, no, I completely understand that. What about, I mean, obviously, like the manuscripts you deal with, you're not necessarily reading them as books. So what if you had to record like a book that you'd recommend to people to keep going back to that you've read recently or a long time ago?
Sienna Wells: It's like. Mm. I really loved the book, Salke by Francesca Simon. It's such a rich retelling of a Welsh myth. The way it's written is incredible. It's got multiple voices and it's about the lady of the lake. And I felt so bewitched by that narrative. And it was one of those books I picked up and I started reading it and I just couldn't put it down. it devoured me and I then devoured it. was reading it so quickly and it's fantastic. I can't recommend it. It's just so you're just completely taken out of your body into another world. So I really, really recommend that book.
Katie Marshall: Great, yeah, sounds wonderful. What about cooking? Do you like to cook? Is there a recipe, a family recipe maybe or something you started cooking recently that you'd like to write down?
Sienna Wells: I definitely, love cooking. Cooking for me is a big hobby. I find it really fun. I think it would be a recipe for, I've got a cookbook called Pasta Granny's and it's an amazing cookbook and it's basically. just lots of very, very simple Italian recipes for pasta. And you can also make pasta in the sauce. And it's just lovely. And I've got really fond memories of making dishes from that cookbook with people or for myself. And there's one recipe in there, which is like a tomato pasta dish with like sausages and shallots. And it's super simple, but it's one of those things where sometimes like simple is really nice. And you can just...
Katie Marshall: Hmm.
Sienna Wells: make it slowly with somebody on your own. And yeah, I just love, I love a cookbook. So that would definitely just got so many nice memories of doing it.
Katie Marshall: Hmm. Perfect, yeah. So if you were looking forward and backwards, what's something that you're grateful for right now and something you'd like to achieve by this time next year?
Sienna Wells: Something I'm grateful for right now is genuinely the people in my life who have believed in me so fiercely, particularly in moments where I just didn't believe in myself. And I'm so lucky to have such an amazing group of friends and family who have always supported and championed me, even when I've just, you know, gone, I'm just gonna go do this and they're like, go for it. And then they're cheering me on and... I'm very lucky with the people that also give me opportunities and open doors and believe in me in that sense that I can do something that I might not have thought I could do. And then looking forward. I guess I really just want to keep growing in my job as a medieval manuscript dealer and historian. I really love engaging with people and talking to people so more public speaking and engagement. It's not something that I would naturally do or I never thought of myself as doing because I used be very shy. But my love for the subject and also sharing that with people is so important to me. So it's something that next year I'd love to be doing more talks.
Katie Marshall: Mm.
Sienna Wells: maybe going and visiting schools and getting people excited about medieval history about things you don't necessarily get to learn. So it's just yeah, continue like growing, growing and also in the book trade, know, really establishing myself and growing more. So that would be the goal.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, wonderful. mean, you talked about sort of being, having been shy, think until you found your people and your passion, I think a lot of people probably think they're shy or they had the right people cheering them on. I think, you you found your passion. mean, I'm sure so many people would be inspired, know, especially younger people, you can imagine yourself back then having somebody speak about it and encourage you to look into something that you didn't think was for you. It's so important. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: 100%. So, you know, it's the people around you really lift you up and also the thing that you care about lifts you up
Katie Marshall: Especially when you talked about, you know, the lineage of women in this industry as well. I mean, it's probably something that spurs you on every day. So you talked a bit about how much you like to touch and use your books as living objects. What would you put in your commonplace book as a sort of wild card, which can be anything from a press flower to an anecdote or a sketch, basically anything that you'd like to put in for yourself.
Sienna Wells: I would definitely put in a memory. So I had a teacher at school called Mr. Hoyes and I have to thank him for my whole career, which is why he would have to be in there. And so I was super uninterested in everything at school. I had a really, really awful experience with a teacher who belittled me academically very badly to the point where I genuinely thought I would never achieve anything. And I just wanted to leave school as soon as possible. I just was, it wasn't for me. And in year nine, Mr. Hoyes was my teacher for English and he thought I could be a very talented writer based on some homework that I'd submitted, some creative writing. And he set up this group to meet at lunch to do creative writing and then give feedback. And he asked my mum if she could encourage me to go. and he essentially tutored me in how to write and we'd read each other's work to one another because he was a writer and we would give feedback so I was starting to develop a critical mind and he introduced me to some fantastic pieces of literature and really got me into reading and I still have the copy of The Great Gatsby which he gave me which was my first book I read properly and the creative writing club got bigger. And I every single Wednesday at lunch without fail until I left school after my GCSEs, to which my grades were far better than had been anticipated based on him getting that kind of sparking that interest. And it really felt like I found something and I went on to study creative writing at university. And it was, it's quite sad because Mr. Hoy sadly passed away, but anything that I write is dedicated to him. as he was a fantastic teacher and really, really an important person as part of my career and also personal development. So that would be my wild card.
Katie Marshall: Wow, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so sorry to hear you had that experience with a teacher. I like it can really completely destroy people's confidence, that sort of thing. I mean, I've had like bad experiences in school and sort of had a non-conventional route to history. I've been a bit like you, so I can totally relate to that. you know, just having one thing change or one person introduce you to something and set you on this path. mean, the tale could have been so different, couldn't it? It is for a lot of children, which...
Sienna Wells: One.
Katie Marshall: I mean, it makes it even more important that you go through if you feel like you want to talk to students and things because you could be that person for them, which I totally understand, having heard that.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, think it's just, you know, teachers are such important figures in your life growing up. And I just I'm so grateful that I had him as my teacher, because otherwise my life could be very different. I don't know what I would have been doing now. And I really, really enjoy what I am doing. And it's a real testament to him. So very, very grateful. And yeah, a teacher can really change your life. So.
Katie Marshall: Thank you so much for this conversation, Sienna. I mean, you're such a wonderful person by the sounds of it and like really inspiring to so many people to sort of see this area that once was so closed off and elitist in many ways and see that it's for everybody and everybody has, know, range of people have enjoyed these books throughout the ages and we shouldn't be any different. think that sort of that's my main takeaway from everything you've been doing. So thank you so much for sharing your insights. It's been really wonderful to speak to you.
Sienna Wells: Thank you so much for having me. It's just such a wonderful idea for a podcast. it's just so lovely to kind of talk about both medieval books and also just like commonplace book. It's just so interesting and no, I'm really grateful. So thank you. had a lovely time. Thank you.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much.
Sienna Wells: Thank you for having me. very, excited to get to happen today.
Katie Marshall: it yeah I mean when I thought of you as a guest I thought this is very sort of sienna territory so it's wonderful to have you finally here. I mean I bumped into you very briefly at the first book fair which was an amazing experience for me to see to see all those stalls especially all the work you've done as well but for people who don't know you could you just briefly introduce yourself and your work.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, of course. So I'm a medieval manuscript dealer and historian, and I specialize in manuscripts produced in medieval Europe within a Christian context. And I work at Tom W. Ailing, which is a bookshop based in South Oxfordshire in England. And I run the medieval and Renaissance manuscript department. And I've been working in the Antichrist book trade since the winter of 2024. So yeah, that's a bit of me.
Katie Marshall: Yeah. Yes. And a lot of people will probably have seen your social media. I mean, you do such a beautiful job of really displaying how bright and vibrant the medieval period was. I mean, I think the dark ages conception has completely gone now if anyone really ever believed it, but yeah. So you really sort of make us believe in these as living objects, which I think is really brilliant, you and I'm looking forward to talking more about that. But what sort of sparked your interest specifically in sort of medieval and Renaissance prints?
Sienna Wells: So I've been interested in books for a really long time, but it was at university which really sparked my interest in the history of books, pre-printing press. And if I'm honest, it wasn't just like a spark, it was like this inferno that happened. And I initially studied English literature and creative writing for my undergraduate. I did a module in the history of art with literature, which kind of shifted my focus away from writing to look at the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood's interpretation of witches, which was really interesting. But with that change of direction, I decided to study the history of art for my MA part time at the University of Bristol. And at that kind of point, I was starting to work in museums and art galleries and a variety of different roles from working in art camps, curatorial, archival, duty manager. And I really thought curating was what I want to do when I work in art world so every time every hour that I was at university I was trying to break into that industry but one of my lecturers at the time during my MA made this passing comment about Nick's Rowland's books and he was the Chancellor for Philip the Good in the 15th century. And I'd never come across medieval books before, but when I went home I just started looking at them and I didn't really have a clue what I was looking at, because it was just something so enchanting and different about them compared to, you know, a printed book that we have now. And this bled into this kind full-blown obsession which completely changed what I wanted to specialise in. So I... learn every single thing that I possibly could about medieval books just so then I could understand them and then produce a dissertation on them, you know, from the imagery, the structure, some Latin, paleography, how they were made, who was making them. And it was from that point I just, knew I had to work with them somehow. So I did everything in my power to make that happen and yeah, I'm here now.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, I mean, it's really amazing that journey because I mean, you can see the creative writing influence in the way that you sort of you tell the story of the object and their afterlife. It's not all about sort technical processes, is it? It's about the people behind them and who touched them and why they kept them the way they did.
Sienna Wells: Exactly, that's what's really important to me, is to kind of draw out those other stories that are in them because as objects they're amazing but there's so much more to them.
Katie Marshall: Yes. I mean, I think it's quite a new field, isn't it? Because I did a material culture module in my final year at Cambridge and I chose to cheat print and sort of ephemera as my focus. yeah, I mean, obviously the loss rate is a lot higher than some of the manuscripts you're looking at, but it's still that idea of the book being part of life and not just sort of created and that's the end of it. know, they're part of the social and the technological processes of the period, aren't they? And everything that came afterwards, including us really.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, they're fantastic and they live multiple lives. That's something that I always say.
Katie Marshall: So what's one of the biggest challenges that you've come across? You're quite sort of new to this field, but I mean already like incredibly knowledgeable obviously about these sort of manuscripts. What's one of the biggest challenges you've encountered in your work and especially with dealing with these sort of illuminated manuscripts?
Sienna Wells: think genuinely there's just so many things to learn and to know about in terms of medieval books from the imagery, paleography, Latin, and you can like specialise within those groups so deeply. The types of books that you get, the text, and it's such a huge expense of time that these books are being produced and I genuinely really love learning, but I'm someone that puts a lot of pressure on myself to know everything all at once and particularly when I enjoy it. But that just stems from, you know, high sense of curiosity and wonder. But I also have so much care for the subject. And because I haven't come from a traditional background in it, I kind of I'm very guilty of just swamping myself with information because I just want to know everything now. I remember a scholar once said to me that the feeling of anxiety or feeling like you're out of depth is actually a really great thing because it means that your brain is being exposed to new information and what a joy and privilege that is. And the more you start to learn something, the more you realise you don't know, but it's taking that opportunity to kind of step back and then grow and learn. And rather than be frightened, be like, oh no, it's too much. It's just embracing that feeling of, this is just new information coming my way. So I'm definitely a product of my own work, but more importantly, those around me who've helped and shown me things. And I think it's that desire for knowledge and learning that won't go away. So it's a good thing, but it definitely is something that I battle with myself quite a lot. Cause I do just go, oh, I want to know it now.
Katie Marshall: No, but it's so great. I mean, we always think that people above us, you they know everything, but they're constantly learning and doubting themselves as well. I mean, it spurs you on and it makes you a better version of yourself. And sometimes it's hard to forget to look back really and see how far you've come. I mean, it is really incredible in such a short amount of time. But yeah, it's so multidisciplinary as well, the work that you do. So the fact that you're so interested genuinely in all areas of it really, I think shows and shines through.
Sienna Wells: Okay, yeah, it's honestly, been such a, it's like a pinch me moment all the time. And it is lovely because yeah, there's just so much to learn. So many people are willing to share, which is just really, really beautiful. So I very lucky, but it's just trying to remind myself as part of the process and you never stop learning. You never stop learning.
Katie Marshall: No, I mean, a lot of these books, not so much is unknown about them. And I say like our attitudes towards the books is changing quite quickly as well. Like if we think about the 19th century, they were so against the marks and all the different inscriptions that you sort of thrive off in your work nowadays, that you have such a different idea about how valuable they are, don't we? They're not seen as dirty books anymore. They're seen as insights into stories, like little wormholes, aren't they, into the past? Yeah.
Sienna Wells: No exactly, they're rich, they're so rich. Yeah, stories and people, so it's true.
Katie Marshall: Yeah. could you talk a little bit about some misconceptions about medieval manuscripts and maybe the literary culture of the time that these books were made in?
Sienna Wells: Yeah, so I guess this one might sound a little bit bizarre, but I think sometimes people forget that medieval manuscripts are books, objects, and there's this idea that they're perfect, but that's just that's not the reality. And I think the majority of time people's interactions with medieval manuscripts are perhaps in a museum display, like one section is open, it's behind some glass and often the glass might be dark and then you walk up to it and it lights up because it's to protect the book. And the ones that are often picked are very, very beautifully decorated and some very, very affluent provenance. But they... And the ones that aren't on display are often hidden in archives or in libraries and you can get them brought up for research. again, it's just, you don't have that same feeling that they've kind of lost that interactive and tactile quality. And this is for preservation reasons, but these were objects that were made to be held and to be used, some for display, sure, but they were destined for hands and they are a product of being made by hands, all parts. And I think that's what they're very subject to human error. This kind of perfection idea isn't the reality because there'd be mistakes such as spelling or bits of text that's missed out and recopied or people having fun and drawing things and things being found in the wrong order. But you don't always hear that side of things. And the same goes for the people that own these books, the kinds of medieval books that we're used to really hearing about, you know, maybe in the news or in these books. beautiful displays are ones that are commissioned and owned by a royal patron for example and while these manuscripts are still spectacular in terms of provenance and technical skill that isn't where the story ends there's just not very good records of medieval manuscripts owned by less affluent members of society and that doesn't mean that they didn't exist you just have to be a bit more creative about finding them out so sometimes indirect evidence can help us learn a lot more about book ownership across various social classes. an example is there was a legal case that happened in London in, I think it was 1500, where Avis Godfrey was accused of stealing a book of hours from Elizabeth Second, who was a maid. So it's always like really important to just look below the surface of things rather than just taking things at face value. And in terms of like literacy, you know, Education was primarily accessible to more affluent members of society, as there was more generally a focus on practical skills in daily life, such as farming. But again, there would be exceptions. So I think the thing with the medieval period is just not everything is what it seems. And there's always more that you can go down and tease out. But it's just, if it's not direct, you've got to look in these other avenues to find things out.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, it's really interesting what you're saying about sort of mistakes as well, because a lot of catalogues, they sort of will list books in their perfect sort of ideal form, won't they? They won't sort of talk about the individual characteristics so much as to measure it against this idea of a perfect copy of this book and then sort of price them, I suppose, in the book trade according to that, which sort of devalues that story.
Sienna Wells: Mm. Mm. No, I think. No, no, exactly. I just think with mistakes, it's genuinely one of my favourite things to spot because it's just, it's that kind of portal to that's a person who they've, they've gone to work, say for their scribe and they've been copying things out and it's, it's quite a labour intensive job. And suddenly they've got something wrong. It's like, gosh, this is actually a really expensive mistake. And just like we would now, you might feel a bit panicked if it's going to cost your company or manager lots of money. you go, imagine just going home and be like, Oh, I've made a really expensive mistake. And I feel a bit rubbish about it. Or I've just started as a scribe and I'm finding it really challenging. And it's, it's just things like that. It's, just helps. dunno. So a reminder of these, these people who are producing them are just people and they aren't machines. They get it wrong and they have their own life and you can kind of get a tiny, tiny window into it. part of them and even without knowing their name you just get a sense of who they are so it's really nice.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, also our idea of what reading actually meant is probably very different in the medieval period, wasn't it, with the oral culture and sort of that idea of book hospitality and allowing people to use your library and reading sort of meaning reading aloud most of the time. I think we're probably not aware of the extent to which people engaged with these books in different ways, as there's no record of it.
Sienna Wells: No, exactly. You oral culture is so, so important in the history of books. And I think, again, like you say, just because the records aren't there, it doesn't mean it wasn't existing. It was. It was very, very important. And it was how a different way that people could interact with literature and a really important one, too, because a lot of these stories had kind of... things about general life and would help people through a literary basis. So yeah, it's really, really interesting. It's not, again, it's just not what you might think of it naturally, but there's just so many different layers to book culture.
Katie Marshall: Exactly, You mentioned the Book of Hours, which is obviously really sort of inspiring and thought provoking type of book from this period. they're often shown people holding them, aren't they? So they're not only beautiful and decorative, but they're also highly interactive and personal to people. So could you just talk a little bit about the medieval connection to the materiality of books?
Sienna Wells: it's such a wonderful thing. And I think it's genuine on my favourite topics. But I'll explain like about the Book of Hours first, because it's that is the kind of the vehicle for a lot of this touch relationship. the Book of Hours is considered to be a medieval bestseller and they ranged from simple to luxurious. They could be very pristine or well-thumbed. And they essentially are devotional manual designed for personal prayer containing offices and other religious texts called Hours. And each office is centered around a specific theme, such as the Virgin Mary, And the office of the Virgin Mary's was a particular favourite of the medieval period. And this contained psalms, reading and prayers. And it's a simplified version of the divine office that was adapted for everyday use by people not necessarily working within a religious context. And they use the term hours to refer to specific times of day that were designated for prayer and it followed kind of a daily structure that they would have in monasteries. but they were very much like portals to someone's interior. And you can learn a lot about a person without knowing their name. And so the one that I have in the office is a very, very small book of hours. And there's lots of signs of use for the office of the dead. And this would be used when someone died, this particular prayer cycle. And the first prayer was to be recited the night before a funeral. And the miniature opening this office shows a burial scene that has been rubbed extensively to the point where the pigment on the priest's have gone. the same with the body. And to me, this shows that this page was frequently returned to, perhaps the owner experienced a lot of death in their life or perhaps a very significant death, which greatly impacted them as they returned to this page in grief. And while we don't know their name, we can hold a piece of them that in our and you know 500 year old grief is something that we can really I don't know everyone can connect to and I think that's the thing about books it's there's just something so personal about them they would be passed down generations and sometimes different family lines would have one book that would go through them and people would write in the calendars like birthdays anniversaries of marriage of death and yeah they would kiss and rub miniatures as they were praying so it's like a really physical connection and you still get that with books now and I write in my books but it's just this kind of I think because the medieval period feels so distant and particularly these books can feel really distant you do get a sense of grief, hope, desire, everything which is what I love to see in books but again you don't always see it sometimes they're really pristine and really clean
Katie Marshall: you
Sienna Wells: And again, you can still learn something about somebody by how they kept their book. You know, if they didn't want to write it, that's a choice for them. And, you know, you'd have various degrees of interaction. And there's a scholar called Catherine Rudy, and she's an absolute pioneer in this field. And I highly recommend reading her on this subject. But in one of her papers, she suggested that
Katie Marshall: Mm.
Sienna Wells: Philip the Good, was the Duke of Burgundy in the 15th century, may have a step further by scraping off the pigment from the face of Christ in a manuscript by using a sharp instrument as it left the parchment bare. And she suggested that it's possible that these pigments were then diluted in water and then drunk by Philip the Good as a medicinal act of devotion and a spiritual food. So the kind of medieval connection to books was just very...
Katie Marshall: you
Sienna Wells: very physical sometimes and yeah, you learn so much about someone by how they have handled or haven't handled their book.
Katie Marshall: Thanks. I think we can relate to that so much in our sort technology saturated lives. I people turning back to journaling and really embracing that sort of sensory experience, know, of having a book in your hand. I don't know, I think you can, know, feel so different in our approach now. mean people, like I said, in the 19th century they would almost whitewash these sort of things out, wouldn't they? But we're losing that trail of human touch through the ages which really are as important as the book themselves, aren't they?
Sienna Wells: one. Yeah, yeah, think it's, you know, sometimes even with medieval manuscripts, sometimes you'll see a name, which is later, maybe perhaps from the 18th century, and there's ones that crossed out and then they've added their name. it's just, there's just something about how books travel through time and even having them now, we're all part of that history. And that will go on even though we're not writing in the books or I'm not writing about medieval books. It's still you're interacting and learning about them. and that kind of inserts you into that life cycle of that book. And it's just something that's really special. And I always say that medieval manuscripts, when you're looking at them, it's like reaching your hand through time and holding the hands of every single person that have come before. And some people are silent in their presence and some people are really loud. And every single person still matters, both from production, ownership. maybe it's in someone's drawer and it's just, you know, every single part of that history is so important and it's just kind of having a, sometimes an open mind to be like, you know, even if I can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Someone's been there at some point. So, yeah.
Katie Marshall: I mean, it's so true what you say, it is as physically close as we can get to people in history, touching the things they touched. mean, there's so much to think about, isn't it? Especially if it's somebody you feel connected to through their story. So kind of linking into this sort of seeing us as part of the life cycle of these books and carrying on their legacy. I'm sure there's something that you've come across as a sort of elephant in the room, I think for a lot of book dealers at the minute and museum creators is the change in attitude towards how we handle these books. I think we've turned away from using gloves, haven't we? So do you want to explain why this is and why touching them with your hands has become sort of normal practice now?
Sienna Wells: Yeah, this is a really good question. It's something I get asked quite a lot. And I guess in like simple terms, it's because we don't want to damage the books and manuscripts. And you you might see in films or in TV or in the news, people wearing gloves handle old, rare or valuable books, but it is all for show. The truth is that in all cases, wearing gloves increases the risk of damaging the book. because gloves provide an additional layer which reduces your sensitivity and manual dexterity. So it wouldn't be possible for you to turn the pages safely in a book or you can't really feel the pages that you're holding on to if you were wearing gloves. Also, gloves are no cleaner than hands. They retain more dirt and the fibres of the cotton gloves can really lift pigments and ink from the pages and transfer dirt from one book to another. know, leading libraries and museums around the world have published their advice on it and why gloves shouldn't be used in their reading rooms. And instead you should handle books with clean and dry hands. So give them a really good wash, dry them, and then that is the safest way. And unless you, you know, you're handling a book which has got something incredibly toxic on it, you know, if it's like an arsenic green binding, then yeah, wear gloves to handle that because that wouldn't be safe. But Generally it's safe practice to handle them without gloves.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of how the bookmakers intended, isn't it? It's the most natural way of handling them. mean, they've lasted all these centuries with people holding them and doing much more to them, haven't they, than us being so gentle and holding them like this precious object now.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think it's just when like with the book of hours I have in the office, it's tiny. And if I was wearing gloves, I just wouldn't be able to safely turn it. And yeah, you've got to just be able to feel it. it's just, yeah, it's just so much better for the object. And otherwise, you know, you do run the risk of ripping it or putting it in some way. And yeah, so best practice just clean, clean, hands.
Katie Marshall: their sensitivity. Thank you for clearing that up. think a lot of people still, I think, question themselves or double check, you know, when they see it. So we're so used to that idea. So could you talk a little bit, because I think that there's still this assumption that scribes and, you know, guild members and monks, obviously monks are always male, but I mean, the book trade itself was very male dominated. So do you want to talk a bit about the involvement of women in the book trade and production?
Sienna Wells: This is honestly my favourite topic. And it's basically there's a very common perception that men were the makers of medieval manuscripts, particularly when there's an unnamed scribe or illuminator. People just tend to assume they're male, but this is not always the case. Women existed as scribes, illuminator, book traders, runners of workshops, and they thrived. One piece of evidence that we have for female scribes is through colophons. And that's kind of a note that is left behind by a scribe and it sometimes supplies information such as a name. There's a really, really interesting study that the University of Bergen did in 2025 and they determined that at least 110,000 manuscripts were copied by female scribes based on colophons, of which 8,000 should still exist. And they mentioned a colophon from a female scribe named Birgitta in the 15th century. And her colophon said something along the lines of, you know, I'm a nun in a monastery at Munkaleve at Bergen. And she'd written this solta with initials, but not as well as she'd ought or something like that. And you just get that tiny, tiny glimpse. into, again, somebody and their life. But another way that they could be identified was by referring to themselves as a scriptrix. And that's a female scribe or soro, which means sister in Latin. you know, like you said, medieval book trade was regulated by the establishment of guilds. And there are some examples of guild records, which gives us an insight into the operations of the early book trade and into women's involvement in this. There was the Guild of St. John the Evangelist and from the 15th century in Bruges, it was required that anyone working in the book trade had to join. So between 1454 and 1500, women made up a quarter of its members and they were named apprentices, illuminators, owners of workshops, such as Christine Burns, who was an illuminator. And she ran a workshop around the late 15th century and she trained men and women as illuminators. So it's really important that if we see an unnamed work, which you do most of the time, we don't assume it was created by a man. And I think it's just like that constant questioning. You you've got Gude, she was a German nun, an illuminator from the 12th century. And she's known for creating one of the earliest signed self-portraits. And it's just like, I only found out about her in the last few years. And it's just, you know.
Katie Marshall: Yeah.
Sienna Wells: How? It's such an amazing thing. And she has a line she wrote in under her portrait saying, Gouda, a sinner, wrote and painted this book. And, you know, it isn't just people that were creating the books, but also people who were authoring things. You Marjorie Kemp authored the Book of Marjorie Kemp, which is known as the earliest surviving autobiography written by women in English. And she was born around the mid 14th century. And then you've got Christine de Pizan, who is considered to be the earliest professional female author. And it's just all these amazing women in medieval history, I think, are now more and more people are starting to do more research and attitudes are starting to change. But certainly, do, you know, when I have conversations with people, is a knee-jerk reaction. People go, he, he's a great illuminator. And I'm just like, you don't know, you don't know. And I think...
Katie Marshall: Yes. Yeah, I always come back to the quote by Virginia Woolf that anonymous is always a woman.
Sienna Wells: Yes, no exactly. And I think it's so important to question. And I think I feel particularly passionate about it because, you know, I'm a woman in the book trade and I feel like I'm continuing this tradition of women in these spaces. And yeah, this was really special to know that, you know, the time period I studied women were there and they were doing really amazing things.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure that, you know, they'd be thrilled with the work you've been doing. I'm sure that, you know, I mean, obviously that's a history waiting to be fully told. And that's exciting in itself, but it's a shame that, as you say, it's taken this long to really recognise these women and how incredibly influential they were. mean, Christine Depizan has obviously been recognised for quite a while, but I'm sure there are lots of women who were equally as amazing as her and, you know, really impacted print culture throughout the medieval period.
Sienna Wells: exactly.
Katie Marshall: So I think commonplace books are actually something that is a great insight into the lives of women and what they read. So if you could have access to anyone's commonplace book throughout history as a sort of insight into their working life, their personal thoughts, who would that be?
Sienna Wells: This is a really hard question because there is genuinely so many people that I would be really interested in knowing about. But I guess if I had to one right now, it'd probably be Christine Burns, the illuminator that ran the workshop around the late 15th century and was training people. I just think it'd be really interesting to get an insight into what inspired her, what was going on around her, what was her life like and... what was she thinking about? And particularly as, you a woman heading a workshop, it just, there's just something about it. And I think I've got a name and her occupation, but the rest is unknown. And it's just, it's things like that. I really love, I'm so curious to understand people and know people. And I think, I've got this kind of glimpse of her, I'm like, I really want to know more. Because again, it can also teach us so much about. book trade, how it operated and just understanding, you know, women who was doing amazing things in that time. Yeah, I'd love hers.
Katie Marshall: Yes. And it'd be nice to ask her sort of how she got interested in this world as well, like what triggered her. obviously, you know, having a name in occupation is really annoying. Just, you know, it's so little, but I mean, you can imagine so much, can't you, the endless possibilities of what her day-to-day life was and her interactions and her conversations and what she was reading. it's... Yeah.
Sienna Wells: what she was enjoying and you know, did she like to paint a certain thing or something she was like, I don't want to do that. Those little things that just make people who they are.
Katie Marshall: Yes. And not another one. Yes, yeah. So, should we touch on a little bit about what makes you who you are in your commonplace book? Because I think you'll have some really great insights. I mean, one question I kind of want to bring into this before I talk about what your commonplace book would look like is how would you describe yourself as a person?
Sienna Wells: Ooh, that's a good question. I would describe myself as curious. I'm very, very, curious and both academically and also in people. Curious and hmm. I just I love to understand and to learn and that, yeah, transcends every aspect of my life. I don't think we'll ever go away. Very hopeful and positive. And that's something that I like to try to be. yeah, think curiosity, curious is the biggest thing in my life.
Katie Marshall: No. Yeah, vital, yeah. So what would your commonplace book look like? Obviously you've looked at so many books and I'm sure you have an idea of the sort of aesthetic that you choose for your commonplace book.
Sienna Wells: Again, this is a really cool question because I get to think about all the lovely books that I get to handle. But I think in terms of binding, I really like cathedral bindings. They're beautiful. They've got the shape of a cathedral on the front. And I really love dark brown leather, lots of gilt decorations, lettering, gilt edges. And if I was going to go further, I would.
Katie Marshall: you
Sienna Wells: I would have parchment pages, just because I feel like it would be wrong if I didn't. And, you know, there'd be a really nice illumination perhaps on the front page of just lots of amazing medieval women. Because I think, you know, that's something I really care about. And yeah, that would be really, really fun. And maybe a nice clasp, really over the top.
Katie Marshall: Yep. Yep. Mmm. Yeah, I love how specific it was, I wouldn't expect any less. So we talked about, I mean, if people had your commonplace book, would it be sort of well-formed or would it be sort of pristine?
Sienna Wells: I'll be so well-thumbed. I'm someone that my books at home or my journals are not destroyed, but they are, you know, I break spines of my own books and I write in them. put, you know, if it's a journal, I put things in it like flowers or...
Katie Marshall: Yeah. for love. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: pictures, I write over everything. it would be, I have a very tactile relationship with my books and my commonplace book would definitely reflect that. Otherwise I feel like it just, wouldn't be me.
Katie Marshall: Yes. No, no, course. Yeah. So if you were to record like a particular philosophy or a quote, is there one that stands out that's had an impact on your life when you're working or your personal life really?
Sienna Wells: It's funny because I used to genuinely love a quote when I was little. I used to print off pages and pages and pages of quotes and I collaged them all over my wall by my bed and put them all over my ceiling as well so I could read them. But first I think of one. inspires me. I think it's the I'm not afraid of storms, I'm learning how to sail my ship by Louisa May, or cop little women, wrote this women and it's, yeah, it's just something about, you know, some things are out of your control, like the weather. And some conditions are really hard. But it's just about how you move through it. And it's, you know, I like to think of that during hard times, both if I'm struggling with something at work or in my personal life. think it's just, it's a voice that speaks to me quite a lot. It's, know, wherever it is, I can do this. And it's just about learning and adapting and moving forward.
Katie Marshall: It's very similar to the idea of that other quote, is trees bending with the wind and not snapping, isn't it? It's moving with the things you can't control instead of trying to force your way back against them. It just makes things doubly as worse. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: Yes. No, exactly. I think it's, yeah, things like that. I love just hope, hope as well and perseverance. Mm, exactly.
Katie Marshall: Yes, yeah, nothing's permanent. Yeah. So obviously you're very, have a very good idea about sort of visual culture and probably what you like in that area as well. So what about one photograph or even a copy of a piece of art that you could put into your commonplace book that you'd like to keep coming back to?
Sienna Wells: I think a photograph would be a photograph of my mum, my granddad and myself all dancing together. It was at my Nana's birthday and she was sitting in the kitchen. And that's a photograph. It's obviously a personal one. I'd put it in there because it just... Both my mum and my granddad are really key figures in my life. They inspire me so much. And also it was a nice memory, but my granddad is a really big history fan and he would talk to me for hours and hours and hours about different historical things, both to do with our family and just general history. And my mum, when I was growing up, would take me to lots of different historical sites. So that's a really key thing for me is they both kind of brought me into this curiosity and wanting to see and understand and be part of it. So yeah, and they're such amazing and kind people. So that would definitely be it. Yeah.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, lovely. Yeah, that's perfect because it's reminding you also why you're doing everything and what's what's led you to this point really
Sienna Wells: Exactly.
Katie Marshall: So what about music? Is it something that you turn to when you're wanting to uplift yourself? Is it something you listen to while you're working? What's sort of your relationship to music?
Sienna Wells: I've got such a deep connection to music. I think particular songs for me really... will take me back to a particular moment and if I listen to them again I'm almost like transported there and there's a song called Outro by M83 and that's probably one of the most emotionally charged ones for me because I did the Brighton Marathon back in April for the charity Refuge and I had rolled my ankle and my tracker wasn't working and I was in a lot of pain so I was really just going off of I think I'm near the end and I've just got to keep going and you you've gone through months and months of training whilst you know working as well so I'd be getting up at ridiculous hours so I could run before work or run after work.
Katie Marshall: Huh.
Sienna Wells: and running for a charity also made it a really big moment. And that song came on on the kind of the final bit of the marathon. And I was just a bit, I was, I was gone. I was in so much pain. And someone shouted to me to look up. They were like, look up, up, look up. The finish line's ahead of you. And I was listening to that song and there's a moment in it when it goes like really quiet. You can't just really hear anything. just then the crowds were starting to yell and It was so, so then the song started to build up again. So I took one head by now and was just listening to both. And honestly, it was just such a big moment. And the line came up like, now and forever I'm your king as I crossed the line. And I just cried my eyes out. I felt so emotional and it was a poignant moment I'll never forget.
Katie Marshall: So well. Wow. I the timing of music can be so strange sometimes how it pops up in your live content. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, I know. It was a really amazing song. My headphones were on shuffle and I don't actually remember most of the music I heard during the marathon because I was just trying to get through it. It's the last 10k, which is really hard. I think because of, you know, working and running and doing other hobbies, it'd been such an intense time that it was just this cathartic moment. So that's a special song to me.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, absolutely. I imagine every time you listen to it now, you can remember that moment where somebody shouted out and then the crowd coming over. Yeah, how magical to make it like your song in a way to have that kind of soundtrack over the song. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, no, I always think back to that moment. I was listening to it in the car this morning and it just it's like this transportation back in time. Yeah.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, like a movie scene. Yeah. We're in main character moment.
Sienna Wells: Yeah.
Katie Marshall: So what about a particular place in the world if you could have a postcard, where would that be from?
Sienna Wells: Definitely from Geneva. I went there a few years ago, my first ever solo trip and I was going through quite a tough time and so that place holds a lot of significance to me. I booked it last minute and I was like, I'm going, let's just go for it and see what it's like and I decided on that trip. like, I'm gonna just...
Katie Marshall: Mm.
Sienna Wells: go for a time of change. So I'm going to do this and I'll be fine. I'm going to get through it, but I'm going to change my life and it's going to be okay. And I was staying in this really small village, actually out of the city. And I was there during the summer solstice and I went out at night and the moon was really bright and there was no one around. It was just so quiet. It was such a sleepy little village. And I just remember like skipping and twirling down the road listening to
Katie Marshall: Thank you.
Sienna Wells: to the, I think it's the end of beginning. And I just was like, I know it's going to be okay. So a postcard from there, that would be what was going in.
Katie Marshall: Yeah. I love that detail, that sounds like something that I would do. I'm glad somebody gets it, you know, when you're completely alone and you're just like, yeah, it's so magical when you can just do that and yeah, no, I completely understand that. What about, I mean, obviously, like the manuscripts you deal with, you're not necessarily reading them as books. So what if you had to record like a book that you'd recommend to people to keep going back to that you've read recently or a long time ago?
Sienna Wells: It's like. Mm. I really loved the book, Salke by Francesca Simon. It's such a rich retelling of a Welsh myth. The way it's written is incredible. It's got multiple voices and it's about the lady of the lake. And I felt so bewitched by that narrative. And it was one of those books I picked up and I started reading it and I just couldn't put it down. it devoured me and I then devoured it. was reading it so quickly and it's fantastic. I can't recommend it. It's just so you're just completely taken out of your body into another world. So I really, really recommend that book.
Katie Marshall: Great, yeah, sounds wonderful. What about cooking? Do you like to cook? Is there a recipe, a family recipe maybe or something you started cooking recently that you'd like to write down?
Sienna Wells: I definitely, love cooking. Cooking for me is a big hobby. I find it really fun. I think it would be a recipe for, I've got a cookbook called Pasta Granny's and it's an amazing cookbook and it's basically. just lots of very, very simple Italian recipes for pasta. And you can also make pasta in the sauce. And it's just lovely. And I've got really fond memories of making dishes from that cookbook with people or for myself. And there's one recipe in there, which is like a tomato pasta dish with like sausages and shallots. And it's super simple, but it's one of those things where sometimes like simple is really nice. And you can just...
Katie Marshall: Hmm.
Sienna Wells: make it slowly with somebody on your own. And yeah, I just love, I love a cookbook. So that would definitely just got so many nice memories of doing it.
Katie Marshall: Hmm. Perfect, yeah. So if you were looking forward and backwards, what's something that you're grateful for right now and something you'd like to achieve by this time next year?
Sienna Wells: Something I'm grateful for right now is genuinely the people in my life who have believed in me so fiercely, particularly in moments where I just didn't believe in myself. And I'm so lucky to have such an amazing group of friends and family who have always supported and championed me, even when I've just, you know, gone, I'm just gonna go do this and they're like, go for it. And then they're cheering me on and... I'm very lucky with the people that also give me opportunities and open doors and believe in me in that sense that I can do something that I might not have thought I could do. And then looking forward. I guess I really just want to keep growing in my job as a medieval manuscript dealer and historian. I really love engaging with people and talking to people so more public speaking and engagement. It's not something that I would naturally do or I never thought of myself as doing because I used be very shy. But my love for the subject and also sharing that with people is so important to me. So it's something that next year I'd love to be doing more talks.
Katie Marshall: Mm.
Sienna Wells: maybe going and visiting schools and getting people excited about medieval history about things you don't necessarily get to learn. So it's just yeah, continue like growing, growing and also in the book trade, know, really establishing myself and growing more. So that would be the goal.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, wonderful. mean, you talked about sort of being, having been shy, think until you found your people and your passion, I think a lot of people probably think they're shy or they had the right people cheering them on. I think, you you found your passion. mean, I'm sure so many people would be inspired, know, especially younger people, you can imagine yourself back then having somebody speak about it and encourage you to look into something that you didn't think was for you. It's so important. Yeah.
Sienna Wells: 100%. So, you know, it's the people around you really lift you up and also the thing that you care about lifts you up
Katie Marshall: Especially when you talked about, you know, the lineage of women in this industry as well. I mean, it's probably something that spurs you on every day. So you talked a bit about how much you like to touch and use your books as living objects. What would you put in your commonplace book as a sort of wild card, which can be anything from a press flower to an anecdote or a sketch, basically anything that you'd like to put in for yourself.
Sienna Wells: I would definitely put in a memory. So I had a teacher at school called Mr. Hoyes and I have to thank him for my whole career, which is why he would have to be in there. And so I was super uninterested in everything at school. I had a really, really awful experience with a teacher who belittled me academically very badly to the point where I genuinely thought I would never achieve anything. And I just wanted to leave school as soon as possible. I just was, it wasn't for me. And in year nine, Mr. Hoyes was my teacher for English and he thought I could be a very talented writer based on some homework that I'd submitted, some creative writing. And he set up this group to meet at lunch to do creative writing and then give feedback. And he asked my mum if she could encourage me to go. and he essentially tutored me in how to write and we'd read each other's work to one another because he was a writer and we would give feedback so I was starting to develop a critical mind and he introduced me to some fantastic pieces of literature and really got me into reading and I still have the copy of The Great Gatsby which he gave me which was my first book I read properly and the creative writing club got bigger. And I every single Wednesday at lunch without fail until I left school after my GCSEs, to which my grades were far better than had been anticipated based on him getting that kind of sparking that interest. And it really felt like I found something and I went on to study creative writing at university. And it was, it's quite sad because Mr. Hoy sadly passed away, but anything that I write is dedicated to him. as he was a fantastic teacher and really, really an important person as part of my career and also personal development. So that would be my wild card.
Katie Marshall: Wow, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so sorry to hear you had that experience with a teacher. I like it can really completely destroy people's confidence, that sort of thing. I mean, I've had like bad experiences in school and sort of had a non-conventional route to history. I've been a bit like you, so I can totally relate to that. you know, just having one thing change or one person introduce you to something and set you on this path. mean, the tale could have been so different, couldn't it? It is for a lot of children, which...
Sienna Wells: One.
Katie Marshall: I mean, it makes it even more important that you go through if you feel like you want to talk to students and things because you could be that person for them, which I totally understand, having heard that.
Sienna Wells: Yeah, think it's just, you know, teachers are such important figures in your life growing up. And I just I'm so grateful that I had him as my teacher, because otherwise my life could be very different. I don't know what I would have been doing now. And I really, really enjoy what I am doing. And it's a real testament to him. So very, very grateful. And yeah, a teacher can really change your life. So.
Katie Marshall: Thank you so much for this conversation, Sienna. I mean, you're such a wonderful person by the sounds of it and like really inspiring to so many people to sort of see this area that once was so closed off and elitist in many ways and see that it's for everybody and everybody has, know, range of people have enjoyed these books throughout the ages and we shouldn't be any different. think that sort of that's my main takeaway from everything you've been doing. So thank you so much for sharing your insights. It's been really wonderful to speak to you.
Sienna Wells: Thank you so much for having me. It's just such a wonderful idea for a podcast. it's just so lovely to kind of talk about both medieval books and also just like commonplace book. It's just so interesting and no, I'm really grateful. So thank you. had a lovely time. Thank you.
Katie Marshall: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much.
