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Hello, and welcome to comic boom, the comics and education podcast.
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If you're interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you.
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My name is Lucy Starbuck Bradley.
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And each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator and academic, a librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries classrooms, and hopefully onto your bookshelves at home too.
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This episode of comic, boom is sponsored by ALCS the authors licensing and collecting society.
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Hello, everyone today's episode.
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I'm very excited because I will be speaking to the Ricard sisters, Sophie and Scarlet Ricard who collaborate to create brilliant graphic novels.
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So if he does the words and Scarlet draws the pictures, as it says on their website, they were brought up in the Ribble valley in Lancashire.
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And a lot of their work features stories from around that region as well.
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For example, no surrender, which we'll we'll talk about in this episode.
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Scarlet has worked as a commercial artist, illustrator signwriter and portrait painter.
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Sophie has worked as a civil servant pub landlady cabin crew, and child counselor.
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So a real variety of roles leading up to becoming graphic novelists.
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I love that.
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The ragged Charles a philanthropist was published in autumn 2020 by self-made hero.
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It's a graphic adaptation of Robert Trestles socialists classic.
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In autumn 2022, they then bought out no surrender also was self-made hero.
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That book was a graphic adaptation of Constance Maud's suffrage classic.
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in this episode, we hear all about how they work together.
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And collaborate on that book despite living 200 miles apart as always.
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I'm really fascinated by the way in which people work together to create.
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Books the records, this is a great example.
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Absolutely loved talking to them, finding out about their work about them.
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there are approaches to adapting classic literature and bringing it to a new audience in graphic novel form.
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Really really interesting and bring such a new element to discussions around the role that graphic novels can have in classrooms and libraries, I think is a really brilliant angle to take Sophie and Scarlet are also part of our lakes, international comics, art festival collaboration.
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They'll be at the festival this year.
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And talk to us a little bit about that we may remember we ran special episodes last year in the run-up to the lakes, international comics, art festival, featuring guests that would be appearing at the festival itself we are doing the same this year.
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I'm delighted to announce that the next four episodes will be lakes, international comics, art festival specials.
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A really interesting bunch of creators who will all be also be appearing at the festival at the end of September.
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So the festival is back at bonus on Windemere from Friday the 27th to Sunday, the 29th of September, 2024.
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You can get tickets online if you're up near that way.
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I'd definitely recommend it.
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I'll be traveling quite some distance to attend, and it is definitely worth it from my perspective.
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The events include live draws, interviews, presentations, workshops, exhibitions, book, launches, events for children with the little lift calf activities.
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There's also a comics marketplace where you can spend more money than you intended to on comics.
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I'm sure I will be.
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And it provides a chance to get up close and talk to meets comics creators from across the world.
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And it really is an international event.
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So really looking forward to speaking to some creators who will be at the festival over the next three episodes after this one.
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Definitely recommend.
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Getting out, out to, um, lakes, international comics office.
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Right.
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And if you can't just checking it on their website, they Little LICAF, their children education arm.
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Provide some really interesting, and top quality resources for teaching with comics in the classroom too.
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So definitely check that out.
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If you're teaching with comics or running a comics club in your library.
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I definitely recommended.
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But now onto the main event for this episode, talking to Sophie and Scarlet Ricard, here's what they had to say.
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Hello Sophie and Scarlet, welcome to Comic Boom.
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Hello Lucy, thanks very much for having us.
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You are very welcome.
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I'm going to start the episode off, as I always do, by asking, I'll ask Scarlet first, can you tell me a little bit about your journey as a comics reader?
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Where did that all start for you?
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Was that from childhood or a little bit later on?
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It's a funny one this, I think it, I've never really been a comics reader.
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which is a funny thing.
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Um, I, I think my first introduction to comics was like a lot of people, Raymond Briggs, um our grandmother had Father Christmas in the room where we used to go and stay when we stayed with them.
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And we were there most weekends.
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When we were kids.
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And so, I remember reading that, but thinking that that was the only book like that, I didn't know it was a thing that you could have comics.
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I thought it was just Raymond Briggs had done this one thing.
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And I remember just loving the observation of the every day and the sort of absurdity of it was right up my street.
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and then much later when I was about 14.
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to go down to stay with our, our dad and his wife down in Kent and, his wife had a, a book of, Posey Simmons, like her sort of Guardian comics, and I was just fascinated by that, and I read it over and over and over again, and a lot of the references went right over my head, no idea,
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yeah,
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about that sort of highfalutin London dinner party set.
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Um, but, again, it was her observation, she's so good at just observing everyday life and, you know, pinpointing stuff like that.
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So, so I was into those things, but really I'm not, embarrassingly, I'm not a big reader.
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I do struggle quite a lot, with reading like normal books.
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I'm not diagnosed but I think I'm probably ADHD and I just struggle with the concentration and it's sort of similar for me with all books because I need to put a lot of effort into sort of concentration and blocking everything else out in order to absorb the information and I always feel like I've got other things I should be doing
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Yeah.
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it's frustrating.
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but I think those two things were the sort of seminal.
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comics
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and do you enjoy exploring now the other comics that are out there as an adult?
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Or is that still something that you maybe do less for pleasure, more for, for, for research
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I, I, um, don't tend to do a lot for research, but, I mean, I love, there's so many fantastic things coming out, and I love, you know, the, the style of stuff, and there's great stories, but I just don't have time at the moment to properly read anything, because I'm always working.
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Um, so I feel guilty that I'm not like, I'm not with it.
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You know, about what people have been doing recently because I've just been head down drawing.
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getting, yeah, exactly.
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It's quite an all consuming task, I imagine.
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Sophie, how about you?
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Was yours a very similar journey, or was did you have a bit of a different path?
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Well, one thing that you're going to realize from spending this time with us is that Scarlett and I are completely different from each other.
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We are, like, people sometimes ask, are you real sisters or, like, metaphorical sisters?
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And I'm like, no, no, we are real sisters.
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We grew up together.
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We have the same parents.
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But we have not very much in common apart from that.
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So.
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I had the Beano like every other self respecting tomboy of the generation.
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But other than that, obviously reading the same books that Scarlet read, it's true that we just don't have like comics, what I think of as heritage.
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So sometimes the comics community Well, I mean, always the comics community is extremely welcoming and friendly and encouraging.
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when, when, when one makes work.
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But we find ourselves feeling a little bit sometimes like, imposters because we don't have this background steeped in comics culture.
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Like we were not going to comic cons as teenagers.
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We were not reading.
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any Batman, Spider Man, anything like that.
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We don't really understand.
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Yeah, I've, I have the same thing.
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Like I didn't read a lot of, you know, there's, there's so much that I feel like people assume that you've, you've read or accessed or been really immersed in.
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And I'm like, well, I don't really know much about superhero comics at all apart from the movies.
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Um, and, um, I'm more like came, yeah, I did read them as a child, but I'm more, my passion developed more as an adult.
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And so, yeah, I'm more interested in kind of like stories about women and, you know, and.
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Different things like that.
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Autobiography and stuff that maybe isn't, people don't know much about outside the comic scene.
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So when people know that I like comics, they assume I'm talking about superhero comics and it's like, no, no.
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a very exciting medium.
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frustrating when it's described as though it's a genre.
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So you have, you know, the history section and the art section and the comic section, and it just makes no sense because the comics that we're making.
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And the Batman, Spider Man comics are not very closely related.
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It's a way of expressing it.
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That's exciting.
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And it means that people aren't necessarily accessing it.
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So we have feedback that for quite a lot of our readers, particularly with the ragged trouser philanthropists, that that was the first comic first full length work of narrative art.
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They'd attempted to read and they didn't know
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mm,
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which is a
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yeah.
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Yeah, completely, but great that there's something out there that you've made that can, can bring people into this Scarlet, how did it, how did it then turn out that you've, you're making graphic novels then, how did this happen?
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Amazing.
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since I was small.
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And I just, I think when I was really small, I just used to use it as a way of, sort of processing what was happening around me.
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And so I just used to draw every day as a sort of winding down thing, I think.
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I'm really early on, I really struggled to.
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to decide what to draw, because there's just too much stuff out there.
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Like, it's so immersive, the world.
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There's too many things, and I could never just pick one thing to draw.
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So, Sophie, who's always had stories in her head, all, ever since she was really small, used to tell me what to draw, to take the pressure off.
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So I just used to say, Oh, Sophie, tell me what to draw.
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And Sophie would say, I
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head.
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But I can quite clearly remember sitting at the dining table And it being high, like, so I was quite a small child, but I don't know how young I was and, and doing Scarlet saying, tell me what to draw and I would say a thing and then add to it and being told to stop breathing on you because I would be trying to watch,
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don't mind that now.
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I try and keep my distance
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So yes, it was a natural progression really for us because Sophie's a writer and I'm a drawer and we wanted to tell stories.
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And so it was kind of, we sort of fell into it because it was the best way for us to tell stories.
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and also the kind of the idea that if you work together you're more likely to actually do something, you're more likely to finish a project, you're egging each other on.
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And so like, I could eventually maybe have, you know, written a comic or a picture book or something.
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And so if he could have eventually written a novel, but, but I think the two of us together.
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made it actually happen.
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So we combined our strengths.
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So the first book we did was an original fiction, which was Man's Best Friend.
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And we did, we worked on that together for fun.
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kind of, I mean, it was sort of like inventing comics in a stupid way because we didn't have any proper reference.
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Just thinking about it now, looking back on it, it was like, yeah, we
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and we didn't ask for any help.
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We just.
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We just went for it, but we weren't taking ourselves very seriously either.
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We were just having a good time.
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Yeah.
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yeah, we just did it for the fun of it.
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and really enjoyed it.
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So we decided to keep doing it.
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So from that, did you develop a kind of a way of working that you replicated on your future projects?
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I'm fascinated by the collaboration that goes on with comics making.
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I find it really, really interesting how different people work together.
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And yeah, I don't know, Sophie, maybe you can start us off with explaining how that duo works.
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So our collaboration methods have developed over time, but it's not that different to how we approach Man's Best Friend.
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So the Main thing to understand is that we live about 250 miles apart.
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So we don't see each other in 3d very often at all.
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In fact, often the time we see each other is coming to LICAF.
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But then we get to go on a jolly together.
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So we've been collaborating online since before it was cool.
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Since way before COVID we were using, email and FaceTime to get things done.
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But essentially it goes like this.
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We have an idea for a story, whether that's an original story or a proposal of a book to adapt.
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And then we discuss it a lot and then I spend time with it and turn it into a sort of script, a bit like a film script, not at all like a comic script.
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So I'm not.
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At all as prescriptive of what as what we have since discovered real comics writers do I would not dream of telling Scarlet what angle to draw something from like I will tell her what to put on the page if it's important for the plot and I write the dialogue, but I don't
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But not but you don't do it in the sense of like what panels are gonna be there though Do you just say oh this house this house needs to have steps to the
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yeah.
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So it looks like a screenplay and it'll say something like, uh, uh, Joe is waking up, it's dark outside still, and he's wearing his pajamas.
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Like that's the kind of direction you might get.
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And then when that's finished, we'll read over it together.
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And at that point we do the most collaborative bit, which is we get a lever arch file full of A4 copy paper, usually already printed on one side.
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Cause we're cheap and Scarlet has a pencil and we go through the script and she really roughs out.
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What is going to go on each page so we can work out our left and right so we can get our double page spreads in the right places so that we can make sure where the dialogue is going to go on the page and we go through the whole book like that.
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So this is something we learned the hard way with the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist but I'll never quite forgive myself that Scarlett drew a whole chapter that's not in the book.
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It got cut.
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Yikes.
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So we're much much better at planning now.
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And not wasting effort.
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Mm.
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so when we've got that rough version, then it's over to Scarlett and I start thinking about the next thing.
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And what do you do next, Scarlett?
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What to do next?
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So, so on the, on the rough version, we have, like code letters that, that attach to the script.
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So every time there's a bit of dialogue, it's, we have A, B, C, whatever next to it on the script.
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And I just, I've put that in the speech bubbles in the rough.
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So I know approximately what's going to go in each.
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bubble and then I lay the book out, on the computer and InDesign with all the panel layout and everything based on the rough.
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And then I draw it all on an iPad, which, I used to feel really uncomfortable about that because I hated the idea of not having originals.
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It didn't feel like proper somehow.
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Um, but actually it's really changed my life.
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I, I can, I can draw anywhere without making a mess.
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I, you know, I can just pick it up for five minutes on a train and carry on where I left off.
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And it's, it's just, and also Sophie and I both have a connective tissue disability.
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Which is genetic, not a coincidence, which means that, I actually find it very difficult to draw extended periods on paper now, without my hands going into spasm, and I find it really hard, but the iPad's really smooth, so I can draw for hours without it affecting me, yeah.
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So, so we, so what I do is every, I do it page by page, so I lay out, I lay out chapter by chapter on the computer, but then on the iPad it's page by page, so I'll sketch it out based on the rough, and then draw it properly, and then colour it, and do the lettering and everything, because I, for some reason, I like to do all the lettering by hand rather than using a font.
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and then at the end of the day I send the page to Sophie and then we have a little chat about it and make sure it's working all right and because often she's not expecting what I send her because of course I'm imagining it different to how she imagined it and So, so we have like a little conversation if something's not completely clear or, or Sophie's thinking about something that we need to put in for later on in the plot that like needs to be in the background or something, I'll add those bits after that.
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And then when I've completed a chapter, we send it to our editor, David Hine, who is brilliant with all of this stuff.
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And he goes through the chapter and.
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and comes back to us if there's, you know, something that doesn't make sense.
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And I mean, he's, he's
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generous notes, doesn't he?
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really lovely, yeah, very generous.
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And, and he's taught us a lot about making comics in this, in the time since, because we, he started with us with the Ragged Trouser Philanthropist self made hero, our publisher put us together with him.
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And so a lot of the stuff he's taught us is real craft stuff that we obviously didn't
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Didn't
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because we made it up as we went along.
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Yeah.
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So we've learned a lot.
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so when it came to doing No Surrender, we asked a self made hero if we could have Dave again, and they said yes.
00:18:33.513 --> 00:18:38.233
And he's also working with us on this one that we're working on at the moment as well.
00:18:38.308 --> 00:18:40.576
so he's like the third person in the team.
00:18:40.751 --> 00:18:41.392
Yeah.
00:18:41.571 --> 00:18:42.051
Yeah.
00:18:42.582 --> 00:18:43.392
That's brilliant.
00:18:43.432 --> 00:18:47.622
And how do you come about to actually, sort of, select the projects that you're going to work on?
00:18:47.622 --> 00:18:49.961
You've got two historical novels.
00:18:50.241 --> 00:18:51.701
Just being translated into comic form.
00:18:52.092 --> 00:18:58.827
is that what you see as your USP or are you thinking of doing something different in the future or what draws you to those projects?
00:18:59.073 --> 00:19:00.542
It's, it's a funny thing.
00:19:00.722 --> 00:19:06.167
how it came about, Scarlet, I mean, I always blame her for this.
00:19:06.178 --> 00:19:07.137
It was Scarlet's idea.
00:19:07.528 --> 00:19:11.428
She could, she explained earlier that she's not a big reader.
00:19:11.817 --> 00:19:14.057
And I, as I said, we're very different from each other.
00:19:14.057 --> 00:19:23.336
I am a big reader and there's nothing I like more than long, 19th century, early 20th century novels, preferably everyone dies in the end.
00:19:23.406 --> 00:19:26.747
I like them to be difficult and depressing if at all possible.
00:19:27.547 --> 00:19:39.096
And so Scarlet could see that particularly in the case of the Ragged Trouser Philanthropist, that it's one of those books that people wish they'd read, but it's actually really difficult and that there is a lot of value in it.
00:19:39.276 --> 00:19:52.452
In the work that people are not able to get to because it's hiding behind 255, 000 words of not d so it's making the most of our shared talents.
00:19:53.002 --> 00:20:02.643
To create something from the Ragged Childhood Philanthropist that people can access by using what Scarlet's good at, which is a picture telling a thousand words.
00:20:03.282 --> 00:20:11.061
And so of course, once we'd done that once, we then started realizing, well, often people come say, have you thought of this?
00:20:11.092 --> 00:20:12.011
Have you tried this?
00:20:12.112 --> 00:20:12.511
Don't know.
00:20:12.541 --> 00:20:15.281
They suggest books to us, but no surrender.
00:20:15.281 --> 00:20:15.521
Yeah.
00:20:15.916 --> 00:20:23.547
Who was like a sister to the ragged trousers philanthropists in that it's from the same era and but it's and it's telling
00:20:23.701 --> 00:20:25.257
Uh,
00:20:25.287 --> 00:20:28.086
different political story, but in a very similar way.
00:20:28.116 --> 00:20:34.487
So it's completely fiction, but it's written by someone who was there who had boots on the ground and was part of the movement.
00:20:34.797 --> 00:20:36.196
So it's very authentic.
00:20:36.767 --> 00:20:40.747
And the one that we're working on now also fits into that category.
00:20:40.846 --> 00:20:41.747
Similar era.
00:20:41.997 --> 00:20:45.307
written by, it's, it's raising the voice of someone who is there.
00:20:45.836 --> 00:20:56.596
And what we hope to do in the adaptations is not just to make them accessible, but to make them newly relevant so that people can enjoy the ideas that are in the story.
00:20:56.696 --> 00:21:05.777
And to feel close to the people in a way that reading the history wouldn't, because you can identify with them.
00:21:06.144 --> 00:21:26.518
there's something about sort of the, um, Edwardian prose from, from this distance that, that's like a layer of thick brown varnish over the past, and I think it's hard for people to access the feeling that these are real people who are just like you and me because of the because of that.
00:21:26.577 --> 00:21:34.753
and so one of the things that's quite fun to do is to try and scrape that back a bit and, you know, get our cotton buds out, whatever they do in conservation.
00:21:35.473 --> 00:21:45.256
Um, and, and try and bring those, Bring those people to, to the fore, and just remind everybody that these are real people who had real lives.
00:21:45.306 --> 00:21:52.796
So that's part of the fun of it, but also with the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, I attempted to read it several times.
00:21:52.976 --> 00:22:10.875
like a lot of people have, I found it really heavy going, but what, but I also found the description fascinating because he was a very descriptive writer and he described every tiny detail of, you know, painting a door or something.
00:22:11.137 --> 00:22:18.968
And I, I was trying to read it and thinking, God, if all of this description was in a drawing, the book would be half the length.
00:22:19.038 --> 00:22:20.407
It'd be so much easier to read.
00:22:20.417 --> 00:22:21.157
Yeah,
00:22:21.528 --> 00:22:24.137
And that's kind of where I originally got the idea.
00:22:24.137 --> 00:22:27.317
And I actually thought of that before we ever did Man's Best Friends.
00:22:27.407 --> 00:22:28.907
I didn't think that I would do it.
00:22:28.958 --> 00:22:29.667
I just thought, oh,
00:22:29.718 --> 00:22:30.928
Yeah, Wouldn't it be great?
00:22:30.929 --> 00:22:36.377
Um, Uh,
00:22:36.448 --> 00:22:38.837
of, I think I must have had it in the back of my mind.
00:22:38.953 --> 00:22:51.957
And then, of course, when, uh, the sort of Corbyn movement in the Labour Party was happening and everyone started talking about the Ragged Trousered philanthropist again, it made me think of the fact I'd, I'd thought that once.
00:22:51.957 --> 00:22:59.717
And so I suggested it to Sophie because by then we'd already, we'd done Man's Best Friend, so we were sort of a bit more like ready to do a new thing.
00:22:59.916 --> 00:23:03.507
And we weren't, we weren't looking for an adaptation to do.
00:23:04.182 --> 00:23:04.432
It
00:23:04.487 --> 00:23:09.962
We probably, we probably won't be drawing Edwardian politics indefinitely.
00:23:09.962 --> 00:23:14.712
We've described this slavery, which is our current work in progress, as the third in a trilogy.
00:23:15.303 --> 00:23:16.863
So the three go together.
00:23:17.060 --> 00:23:26.911
And this slavery draws the threads of, politics of femaleness and industrial labor politics together into one.
00:23:26.911 --> 00:23:31.740
So it kind of is quite a tidy way to end a set of three.
00:23:32.019 --> 00:23:38.769
yeah, it's a searing, it's another searing attack on capitalism and the patriarchy, but in one book.
00:23:39.459 --> 00:23:40.278
So, so
00:23:40.318 --> 00:23:41.338
I think Scarlet, would.
00:23:41.993 --> 00:23:44.634
Who would really like to be allowed to draw a light switch one day?
00:23:44.634 --> 00:23:46.334
A plug
00:23:46.388 --> 00:24:00.128
yeah, I just like to, it's all those little things you just never think about, like when, when you're drawing a character and you've got to think about them switching the light on, you know, like, have they got, have they got electricity?
00:24:00.963 --> 00:24:01.673
Is it gas?
00:24:01.673 --> 00:24:03.104
Has the gas been cut off?
00:24:03.344 --> 00:24:04.683
Have they got an oil lamp?
00:24:04.743 --> 00:24:06.743
Is it just a candle situation?
00:24:06.743 --> 00:24:07.013
Like,
00:24:07.608 --> 00:24:10.858
I was going to ask you about the sort of research that goes on.
00:24:10.858 --> 00:24:18.848
Like, just thinking about even just like the clothes that people are wearing and the, how much research do you have to do to get that right?
00:24:18.848 --> 00:24:23.669
Or are you not so worried about the details of that being completely accurate?
00:24:23.699 --> 00:24:26.019
Or is it more about the general sort of vibe?
00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:26.266
Are
00:24:26.266 --> 00:24:33.929
you would think from looking at what Scarlet draws, that she spends hours and hours looking up this stuff, but she just seems to just know it.
00:24:35.963 --> 00:24:36.784
you a time traveller?
00:24:37.644 --> 00:24:51.814
we were brought up in, in, um, a very sort of, I suppose, a very, um, curious, environment where our grandparents, particularly were really interested in domestic history.
00:24:54.203 --> 00:25:01.743
used to show me, she had all kinds of weird things in the kitchen, Victorian implements, and she'd show me how to use them and stuff.
00:25:01.743 --> 00:25:04.473
And so a lot of it is just in there somewhere.
00:25:04.653 --> 00:25:10.173
And, uh, like we've, we've grown up with, you know, old furniture and our dad's a joiner.
00:25:10.354 --> 00:25:11.983
He specialised in old buildings.
00:25:11.983 --> 00:25:18.773
My husband's a painter and decorator and I've done work with him, you know, so there's, and I've worked as a sign writer in the past.
00:25:18.784 --> 00:25:25.432
So, All of these things kind of tied in together, but, I do love a bit of research though, it has to be said,
00:25:26.222 --> 00:25:28.923
You've always been into history, haven't you?
00:25:29.252 --> 00:25:33.313
Like, right from, like, you even enjoyed it at school and stuff.
00:25:33.752 --> 00:25:35.712
But you, you go shopping, don't you?
00:25:36.472 --> 00:25:37.999
When, when we first start,
00:25:38.098 --> 00:25:58.209
yeah, I, I've got, I've got Pinterest, and I, I go around, like, finding good outfits and stuff, so I, I go shopping with no money on Google, on Google Images, and, and anything that looks, Like, oh, I could imagine that person wearing something like that, then I just save it in the Pinterest for that person.
00:25:58.628 --> 00:26:02.179
And then I can go back and refer to it in the future.
00:26:02.179 --> 00:26:15.393
So like when I'm having to draw, yeah, when I'm having to draw the same place, like the same room over and over and over again, it's quite good to have the original source material every now and then to just refer to.
00:26:15.413 --> 00:26:19.847
Like, you know, I'm drawing a room that's got a grand piano in it at the moment.
00:26:20.097 --> 00:26:26.718
And every now and then, instead of using it from my memory, I'll just have another look at it just in case I've forgotten how it goes.
00:26:27.397 --> 00:26:33.101
But I'm very, very lucky in the sense that, I've always, I've always really drawn from memory.
00:26:33.101 --> 00:26:36.270
I don't tend to use, I don't tend to draw from sight.
00:26:36.320 --> 00:26:42.240
Got a very good, it seems to me, remarkable 3D visual imagination.
00:26:42.260 --> 00:26:48.520
So if you draw a scene from one side, And then you start to draw it from the other side.
00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:52.111
You just know what it looks like already, which absolutely baffles me.
00:26:52.151 --> 00:26:53.641
I can't even reverse park.
00:26:54.010 --> 00:26:58.431
Like, I don't understand how it works, but it, it comes easily to you, doesn't it?
00:26:58.471 --> 00:27:00.520
That 3D imagination.
00:27:01.665 --> 00:27:02.955
That's really interesting.
00:27:03.015 --> 00:27:11.724
Yeah, I sort of, I think of myself being in the room and so I'm sort of in my head moving around and thinking about what's behind you and what's in front of you.
00:27:12.013 --> 00:27:13.683
I love all I love the challenge.
00:27:14.354 --> 00:27:18.618
And also what you were saying about, accuracy in some ways.
00:27:18.618 --> 00:27:18.868
Yeah.
00:27:18.909 --> 00:27:20.909
Accuracy is great.
00:27:20.949 --> 00:27:26.816
And, and it helps to be weird to make, the reader feel immersed in the world, I think.
00:27:26.816 --> 00:27:30.286
But I don't take it so seriously that I can't sleep at night.
00:27:30.326 --> 00:27:34.596
Like, I think it's like, um, it's like adapting for film.
00:27:34.675 --> 00:27:39.935
I think sometimes things will just not be quite right because you can't get everything perfect.
00:27:40.486 --> 00:27:47.205
And one of the benefits of drawing 1910 is that nobody's around now who remembers what it was like.
00:27:47.721 --> 00:27:48.891
We do have like,
00:27:48.965 --> 00:27:49.316
a bit.
00:27:50.431 --> 00:27:59.401
we have an overriding principle that the story and the communication of the story and the enjoyment of the reader comes first before everything.
00:28:00.336 --> 00:28:01.086
Mm.
00:28:01.306 --> 00:28:11.313
And so, we will adapt for the enjoyment of the reader first, then accuracy, authenticity comes after that.
00:28:11.532 --> 00:28:14.803
So sometimes we will bend the rules to make it work.
00:28:15.123 --> 00:28:23.762
You've got to make the most of the medium, but also it's, there is no point in making a perfect book if nobody reads it,
00:28:24.103 --> 00:28:24.702
Yeah.
00:28:24.823 --> 00:28:25.242
Yeah.
00:28:25.482 --> 00:28:26.232
Really agree.
00:28:26.323 --> 00:28:26.742
Yeah.
00:28:27.722 --> 00:28:32.904
And how do you, I'm really interested in character because there's, there's, a lot of people in your books.
00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:36.835
Like, there's a lot of different characters and they all, they, I feel like.
00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:47.880
They feel really real as well and, you know, very distinct from one another and, but in terms of the character design, it's not like a simple, like, oh, that one's got a hat on and therefore every time I see someone's hat I know it's that character.
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.539
It's, you know, they're very specific.
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:50.490
That's how I draw.
00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:52.940
Stick a hat on them.
00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:53.869
That technique.
00:28:56.049 --> 00:28:56.609
Exactly.
00:28:57.690 --> 00:28:59.910
So how do you do that character design?
00:29:00.348 --> 00:29:04.481
So it comes from the two of us being so different again, I'm just realizing.
00:29:04.481 --> 00:29:08.491
So I've got quite an analytical way, uh, uh, approach.
00:29:08.942 --> 00:29:12.751
And so when I'm doing the adaptation, I try and distill.
00:29:12.751 --> 00:29:16.321
It's like, um, having squash instead of juice.
00:29:16.352 --> 00:29:18.366
You've got to do a lot with the juice.
00:29:18.757 --> 00:29:19.386
volume.
00:29:19.777 --> 00:29:23.946
So you've got to try and distill a character into their most essential features.
00:29:24.406 --> 00:29:33.289
And so, um, I, I might end up cutting things about them that are less relevant to their purpose in the story, that kind of thing.
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:47.269
And so I have this analytical framework that they go into, but then when I hand over to Scarlet, she has this really immersive style where she basically walks for a mile in their shoes and she's drawing them.
00:29:47.269 --> 00:29:51.730
She, she does the faces like she is really imagining being there with them.
00:29:51.730 --> 00:29:52.960
They feel very real.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:59.950
And so the combination of the two, I think is how it ends up being that way.
00:30:00.230 --> 00:30:02.519
We do do the other things though.
00:30:02.609 --> 00:30:06.400
Like for example, in No Surrender, we've got three.
00:30:06.765 --> 00:30:07.744
Prominent women.
00:30:07.805 --> 00:30:09.914
And we've got a brunette, a redhead and a blonde.
00:30:10.204 --> 00:30:10.884
Cause why wouldn't
00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:15.869
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
00:30:15.984 --> 00:30:22.194
but yeah, and trying in the Ragged trouser philanthropist, at least people kept the same outfits on mostly all the way through.
00:30:22.384 --> 00:30:26.275
So you can distinguish them by their clothes in no surrender.
00:30:26.315 --> 00:30:36.244
It was part of the plot that our main character, Jenny would like go dressing up as this and then that, and so you've got to make sure she's still her when she takes her dress off, you know.
00:30:36.999 --> 00:30:48.998
Yeah, and actually the characters in this slavery that we're working on now, again, You know change clothes and experiences and stuff and you have to make sure they're definitely still there yeah, it's an interesting one.
00:30:49.218 --> 00:30:55.770
I think um, I don't think Of myself as being great on character design.
00:30:55.780 --> 00:31:14.519
Like I don't put an awful lot of time and effort into it Um, I tend to i've found that I can't really draw them until I know them Which, I know it sounds, it's all chicken and egg, but I can't know them until I've seen them living and, and saying things and thinking stuff.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:27.420
So I just start, I start the book and then get to, get to know them while I'm drawing them and then inevitably go back to the first few pages and redraw them at the end
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:29.400
That's really interesting.
00:31:29.420 --> 00:31:32.039
And then readjust it back to the person that you now know.
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:32.680
I love that.
00:31:32.771 --> 00:31:38.071
Yeah, because it is really weird how they become their own selves very quickly
00:31:38.326 --> 00:31:41.396
You've also got some interesting likenesses in this slavery.
00:31:41.396 --> 00:31:47.777
We've got a mother and daughter that look related, that not alike, but you can see where she gets it from.
00:31:48.086 --> 00:31:51.196
And a father, a father and daughter as well in that same way.
00:31:51.196 --> 00:31:53.196
And that's an interesting new angle for us.
00:31:53.196 --> 00:31:54.406
It's been fun to work on that.
00:31:55.182 --> 00:31:55.811
Mmm,
00:31:56.511 --> 00:32:05.632
and as they get, because in this slavery there's a time jump of six years in the middle of the book, so I've also had to make the characters suddenly six years older.
00:32:05.795 --> 00:32:09.961
you know, and, and it's, six years is like a subtle amount time in a way
00:32:10.046 --> 00:32:12.570
Yeah, exactly, because it's not like 20 years
00:32:12.570 --> 00:32:18.321
but at the beginning of the book there's like toddlers who are now, you know, seven or eight or whatever, you know.
00:32:19.214 --> 00:32:21.714
Yeah, it is really, it is fascinating.
00:32:21.815 --> 00:32:33.625
One of the really, I find it a bit embarrassing, the one we're working on at the moment, the two main characters are sisters, and this is nothing to do with us, this was written by Ethel Carney Holdsworth, who wrote the original.
00:32:33.674 --> 00:32:37.034
The description that Sophie, because Sophie does like a cast list,
00:32:37.144 --> 00:32:39.334
I have to confess, I made a PowerPoint.
00:32:40.993 --> 00:32:41.574
She did.
00:32:42.074 --> 00:32:43.703
And it's been very useful.
00:32:44.284 --> 00:32:44.584
Thank
00:32:44.739 --> 00:32:44.919
This
00:32:44.923 --> 00:32:45.334
Thanks, though.
00:32:45.398 --> 00:32:45.759
cute.
00:32:48.281 --> 00:32:55.442
Yeah, she made the PowerPoint of all the main cast and then the sort of, extras and stuff, you know.
00:32:55.811 --> 00:33:01.281
So, so I got to say, and, and also, God, she, she, Sophie really does love a spreadsheet.
00:33:01.632 --> 00:33:06.971
She also laid out the whole story and where all the characters reappear.
00:33:06.991 --> 00:33:15.791
So, so when I've got crowd scenes, In this book that I'm working on now, the crowd, the people in the crowd are recognisable characters that will recur
00:33:16.396 --> 00:33:16.616
Mm,
00:33:17.844 --> 00:33:22.691
and, That was because Sophie had like laid it all out, which chapter they were going to appear in and stuff.
00:33:22.704 --> 00:33:32.164
and so, Sophie had given me a little bit of a description and described one sister as being like a dove and the other sister being like a hawk.
00:33:32.173 --> 00:33:40.324
and the way I've drawn them, I've accidentally made them really look like us, which is really, like, it's really embarrassing.
00:33:41.213 --> 00:33:42.023
If anything.
00:33:42.278 --> 00:33:51.098
I've turned into the character I'm drawing because when I started I had shorter hair and it wasn't that curly and suddenly I've got like long curly hair and that's this.
00:33:51.679 --> 00:33:52.888
It's really strange.
00:33:52.929 --> 00:33:54.318
Yeah, I'm turning into her.
00:33:55.054 --> 00:33:56.253
That is creepy.
00:33:56.568 --> 00:33:58.949
I didn't turn into Frank Owen, but.
00:33:59.314 --> 00:33:59.763
Well, I don't know.
00:33:59.794 --> 00:34:00.534
Maybe I did.
00:34:00.663 --> 00:34:01.913
Maybe I did politically.
00:34:02.669 --> 00:34:02.888
Um.
00:34:02.943 --> 00:34:03.503
I'm not sure.
00:34:04.276 --> 00:34:08.579
But it is fascinating the way that characters take on their own, their own selves.
00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:10.679
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.869
Can you tell us a little bit more about your next project?
00:34:13.869 --> 00:34:15.320
When's that going to be out?
00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:23.271
Is there like an easy synopsis that listeners can, uh, just to whet their appetite for the next book?
00:34:23.666 --> 00:34:25.396
So this slavery.
00:34:25.905 --> 00:34:35.996
is a novel written by a woman called Ethel Carney Holdsworth who,, started work in the mills age 11.
00:34:36.815 --> 00:34:37.146
Yeah.
00:34:37.646 --> 00:34:46.565
And then when she was 18, had her first book of poetry published, she was an extremely talented writer who went on to become a really successful novelist.
00:34:46.795 --> 00:34:49.646
She wrote romantic novels about mill girls.
00:34:49.797 --> 00:34:53.603
And one of them was actually made into a film in the twenties.
00:34:53.713 --> 00:34:57.003
So it must have been one of the first doing the film of the books.
00:34:57.434 --> 00:34:58.574
She was outselling H.
00:34:58.614 --> 00:34:58.804
G.
00:34:58.804 --> 00:34:59.224
Wells.
00:34:59.233 --> 00:35:01.043
She was incredibly successful.
00:35:01.543 --> 00:35:09.684
This Slavery is her unpopular book because she, was so rude as to mix romance and politics.
00:35:09.693 --> 00:35:19.153
So instead of it just being a cheap romance for mill girls to read, it was a cheap romance for mill girls to read that encouraged them to go on strike.
00:35:19.153 --> 00:35:32.514
So, so the book itself is the story of two sisters who grow up Working in the mills, their father is dead and they live with their mother and grandmother in a little house in respectable poverty.
00:35:32.903 --> 00:35:37.414
And then it just very much like today, it only takes one thing to go wrong.
00:35:37.724 --> 00:35:42.813
And they are destitute because the difference between coping and not coping is a very thin line.
00:35:43.744 --> 00:35:47.114
And basically the story is about what happens next.
00:35:47.114 --> 00:35:49.853
And the two sisters choose very different paths.
00:35:50.414 --> 00:35:54.554
One of the sisters is a real firebrand, a very angry person.
00:35:54.554 --> 00:35:55.253
And she.
00:35:55.583 --> 00:36:00.443
Becomes politically radicalized and causes no end of trouble.
00:36:01.164 --> 00:36:09.483
The other sister has chronic illness and has the chance to get out of this life by marrying rich.
00:36:09.983 --> 00:36:12.423
So she becomes the.
00:36:12.824 --> 00:36:17.733
other side, if you like, because she marries one of the people who ends up owning a mill.
00:36:18.184 --> 00:36:23.614
And so the two sisters lives run in parallel in the same time, but having very different experiences.
00:36:24.014 --> 00:36:31.844
And it all comes to a head in a, piece of industrial action that involves the whole town and all kinds of skullduggery going on.
00:36:31.903 --> 00:36:46.239
And you really become involved in the moral tussles that the two sisters have and also in their characters, how they choose to react the choices that they make.
00:36:46.398 --> 00:36:52.072
And the slavery of the title is, to do with, You either, as a woman, you've got a choice.
00:36:52.072 --> 00:36:53.771
A working class woman has a choice.
00:36:53.771 --> 00:37:00.192
You either work in the mill and you're a slave to the boss and the, and the, you know, where you're being paid real pittance.
00:37:00.831 --> 00:37:03.641
Or you marry a man that you don't love.
00:37:04.411 --> 00:37:07.751
And then you're sort of under, under him.
00:37:07.958 --> 00:37:09.411
you've got no other option.
00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:12.661
And, I mean, obviously, if you're lucky, you can marry a man you do love.
00:37:12.710 --> 00:37:13.340
But, that's
00:37:13.376 --> 00:37:13.876
Yeah.
00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:15.731
But you still would belong to him.
00:37:15.896 --> 00:37:16.996
you still would belong to him.
00:37:16.996 --> 00:37:19.916
Yeah, you have no, no autonomy.
00:37:19.927 --> 00:37:20.927
So, yeah.
00:37:20.981 --> 00:37:35.757
Carney Holdsworth made some really brave and radical points basically raising the question is what is the difference of selling your labor by the hour to run a loom and selling your body by the hour?
00:37:36.302 --> 00:37:37.711
In other ways.
00:37:37.762 --> 00:37:40.322
And what is the difference between marriage and that?
00:37:40.434 --> 00:37:44.153
So it, the, the slavery of the title is about sexual slavery.
00:37:44.164 --> 00:37:45.563
It's about wage slavery.
00:37:45.574 --> 00:37:55.304
It's about how the entire economic system is underpinned by this, unpaid labor of women, which is not completely gone away.
00:37:55.304 --> 00:37:55.954
Has it?
00:37:56.034 --> 00:37:56.384
No.
00:37:58.418 --> 00:37:59.009
That sounds
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:01.599
It's really well written as well.
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:02.579
It's exciting.
00:38:02.588 --> 00:38:06.989
It's got a lot of, riots and fires and lots of romance.
00:38:07.313 --> 00:38:12.483
of crown scenes, loads of horses, all the things Scarlet likes best when I put them in the script.
00:38:15.608 --> 00:38:16.068
Yeah,
00:38:16.878 --> 00:38:17.579
Wow, that
00:38:17.739 --> 00:38:19.559
I was just thinking another thing.
00:38:20.148 --> 00:38:22.449
I was just thinking, so we're going back to characters.
00:38:22.509 --> 00:38:24.668
I was just thinking about the Ragged Trouser Philanthropist.
00:38:25.179 --> 00:38:30.748
The original story, I think had something like 95 different people in it.
00:38:31.610 --> 00:38:40.659
and so Sophie had to do quite a lot of work at the beginning to consolidate some of those people into one person or decide who just to cull
00:38:40.717 --> 00:38:58.038
And that's, that's how the spreadsheet works, because what I would do is work out what a person's function is, and then maybe merge three people into one, so the same person can keep coming back to, to provide a function, as opposed to introducing a new person every time.
00:38:59.003 --> 00:39:01.992
Or sometimes you might cut a whole B plot.
00:39:02.472 --> 00:39:12.543
And the other thing the spreadsheet's good for is if somebody dies or goes away, to black them out so you can't accidentally have them at the back of the room in another scene after they've died.
00:39:12.563 --> 00:39:14.182
Because it would be really easy to do that.
00:39:14.182 --> 00:39:21.742
When you're drawing a page a day for 18 months, like, it's very easy to lose track of that kind of
00:39:21.902 --> 00:39:22.813
yeah, absolutely.
00:39:22.813 --> 00:39:23.693
I can imagine.
00:39:23.742 --> 00:39:30.543
And we're both really enjoying working on it as well, because it was written in East Lancashire, where we're from.
00:39:31.072 --> 00:39:42.257
So, so there's a real, sort of sense of place about like the, the town itself is a character in this one in a way that it's not really in the others.
00:39:43.088 --> 00:39:51.838
And to the extent that we, that we've been there and spent days there walking about getting a real feel for the place, which we didn't do before.
00:39:52.427 --> 00:39:56.217
We've really thrown ourselves into this one, haven't we, in a different way, which is
00:39:56.407 --> 00:40:00.327
Yeah, it's got real sense of place and a lot of weather.
00:40:00.489 --> 00:40:00.996
yeah.
00:40:00.996 --> 00:40:04.936
I must admit, if I never see a cobble again, I'll be quite happy.
00:40:07.976 --> 00:40:11.277
Wet cobbles quite a challenge.
00:40:16.644 --> 00:40:39.295
I was going to ask you, so obviously social justice is a really clear theme in your work and last year when we did a Lakes International Comics Art Festival special, which is, this is the second year that we've done that, we asked all of the guests on those special episodes a question I just thought was really pertinent to ask you again this year, which do you think that comics can change the world?
00:40:40.114 --> 00:41:09.746
I mean, there's, there's a, there's a quote from Marx, Uncle Karl, that Sophie can probably remember better than I can, basically saying that all the novels and stories of, about, about, Economics and politics and the way people live, written by people like Dickens and Tolstoy and people have done more for society than all the economists and politicians put together.
00:41:10.356 --> 00:41:13.465
Because all it takes is something like Oliver Twist.
00:41:13.465 --> 00:41:16.155
And people can imagine what it's like to be an orphan,
00:41:16.436 --> 00:41:17.920
Mm mm-Hmm
00:41:18.135 --> 00:41:30.766
what it might be like to be in debtor's prison, or, you know, like, putting yourself in someone's shoes is a much better way of understanding a situation, I think, than being preached at.
00:41:31.835 --> 00:41:55.655
So those realist novelists like Flaubert and Dickens and Tolstoy and people like that were getting into the homes of influential people who had the power to change things and asking them to have some sympathy or some empathy with people living in poverty.
00:41:55.693 --> 00:41:58.233
Which was not really accessible to them before.
00:41:58.523 --> 00:42:01.934
And so, stories change the world for sure.
00:42:01.974 --> 00:42:03.824
It's the only thing that really ever does.
00:42:03.903 --> 00:42:08.570
I mean, a really good example of that is the recent drama about the post office scandal.
00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:09.809
Yeah.
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:14.550
You know, that's been rumbling on for years, but everybody was talking about it that weekend, weren't they?
00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:28.750
And comics have their place in that because one of, one of the real drivers as to why we operate in this medium is that there's loads and loads of different ways to tell the story.
00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:31.309
And there's loads of different types of people in the world.
00:42:31.369 --> 00:42:36.775
People are able to access or have a preference for different mediums.
00:42:37.324 --> 00:42:39.175
So there will be some people.
00:42:39.844 --> 00:42:56.425
Who like me like to sit in silence with a fat book full of words and there are also people who would never engage with that content at all unless it was a film or a graphic novel or a play or a song.
00:42:56.465 --> 00:43:01.954
Like, why can't we have every version of a story so that as many people as possible can enjoy it?
00:43:02.003 --> 00:43:11.431
so it's not specifically that comics on their own can change the world, but as, but as a storytelling medium, it can certainly make a difference to people.
00:43:11.431 --> 00:43:13.251
And it's interesting.
00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:25.813
I mean, obviously, you know, I mean, we're kind of riding on Robert Tressel's coattails and, you know, and, Constance Maud and Ethel Carney Holdsworth to an extent with the things that we've been working on recently.
00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:40.271
But it's so exciting when you meet a young person who's been so taken up with it that it makes them angry or, you know, in fact, I, I was in a bookshop a couple of years ago, just, just after, No Surrender came out.
00:43:40.521 --> 00:43:49.481
I was in a bookshop and I overheard a woman with two teenage children in, in the shop talking to the shopkeeper.
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:55.161
And she was saying about her daughter, it was obviously her daughter and her daughter's friend who were in the shop with her.
00:43:55.530 --> 00:43:57.601
And she said, oh, she's got really into this.
00:43:57.610 --> 00:44:00.621
And every now and then she puts it down and just goes, oh, men! And
00:44:01.115 --> 00:44:01.856
ha ha ha
00:44:02.056 --> 00:44:04.016
And I was just in the background in the shop
00:44:04.141 --> 00:44:05.934
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! ha!
00:44:06.215 --> 00:44:29.615
great, you know, it's just, it's so fun when you hear people like really engaging with that, with that content, especially, you know, like there was a young man who was obviously at university or something who saw us on one online thing and he said I've been trying to read the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist but it makes me so angry and we were really pleased
00:44:30.731 --> 00:44:34.030
So there's nothing we like better than subverting young minds.
00:44:35.190 --> 00:44:46.920
And that's one of the reasons we have done things like, we've got the Ragged Education Project, so you can donate the cover price of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist on our website.
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:51.811
And we have a big list of school librarians who've requested a copy.
00:44:52.121 --> 00:44:56.971
And so every time someone donates a copy, we send it to the next school on the list.
00:44:56.971 --> 00:45:00.451
And we've sent hundreds out that way, but we've got hundreds of names that are still there.
00:45:00.746 --> 00:45:01.235
Waiting.
00:45:01.715 --> 00:45:15.771
So it's a really interesting way for, because what we find is that the, fans of the original work come across the comic version and say, I didn't know this kind of thing existed and want to share it.
00:45:15.802 --> 00:45:24.612
So many people in their sixties and seventies say to us, this was put in my hands when I was a teenager and it's changed the way I've seen the work, the world ever since.
00:45:25.371 --> 00:45:27.081
And they want to pass that on.
00:45:27.527 --> 00:45:35.226
And so that's a way of doing it and getting it in school libraries is such a great way of getting in front of hundreds of teenagers.
00:45:35.297 --> 00:45:36.599
Yeah, that's brilliant.
00:45:39.556 --> 00:45:46.967
Can you tell us a little bit about, your relationship with Lakes International Comics Art Festival and what you're hoping to do or see this year at the festival.
00:45:47.172 --> 00:45:54.581
We are really excited to be joining in this year because we're big fans of the Lakes International Comic Art Festival.
00:45:54.592 --> 00:45:56.492
We, we, it's our favorite competition.
00:45:57.592 --> 00:46:00.157
One, and we've been, we've been going to it.
00:46:00.697 --> 00:46:06.817
We, we were discussing this earlier, I think since 2017, which is much longer than we thought we had.
00:46:06.817 --> 00:46:09.487
But anyway, we, we've been going there ever since.
00:46:09.492 --> 00:46:16.836
We first brought man's best friend out, which we self-published and, and Hawked about the place and took it to to, uh, the
00:46:16.856 --> 00:46:20.967
In fact, we were remembering this, weren't we, at our first time at the Lakes.
00:46:20.967 --> 00:46:26.594
We had Man's Best Friend and we were offering it to, Myriad.
00:46:26.594 --> 00:46:28.523
Is that right?
00:46:28.954 --> 00:46:32.063
And Daryl Cunningham was sitting at the table.
00:46:32.114 --> 00:46:32.574
And.
00:46:33.778 --> 00:46:38.454
I think he insisted on buying one from us, and then he was the person.
00:46:39.414 --> 00:46:45.153
Yeah, he was the person who taught us that when you sign it, you have to draw a little picture in it.
00:46:45.184 --> 00:46:53.184
That's how comics naive we were, that we didn't realize that, that, and, Scarlet had to quickly draw a dog in the front for Daryl.
00:46:53.454 --> 00:46:58.594
And I think about that so often every time we're doing a signing and it's got like more and more elaborate.
00:46:58.594 --> 00:47:01.034
And I was thinking, you know, it's that kind of thing.
00:47:01.034 --> 00:47:05.583
People are so kind and the Lakes has got such a fantastic atmosphere for that stuff.
00:47:06.054 --> 00:47:07.474
And it's lovely to see.
00:47:07.949 --> 00:47:14.829
familiar faces that you've not seen since the same time last year, but also to meet new people who are making new things all the time.
00:47:14.878 --> 00:47:15.469
It's lovely.
00:47:15.844 --> 00:47:33.420
I love the mixture of stuff, you know, seeing things from around the world, you know, that you wouldn't have any idea about, you know, Indian comics and, and Russian, you know, sort of documentary illustration and, you know, it's just so much fascinating stuff.
00:47:33.449 --> 00:47:35.679
And they have such great guests as well.
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:37.360
Some real, real big names.
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:40.719
I've seen people like that you wouldn't expect, like Ian Rankin.
00:47:41.034 --> 00:47:44.545
And, you know, there's such a broad range.
00:47:44.545 --> 00:47:48.514
There's always something you didn't know you needed to know about until you got there.
00:47:48.737 --> 00:47:48.867
I
00:47:49.188 --> 00:47:49.467
yeah.
00:47:49.467 --> 00:47:52.557
So we're really excited to be, to be taking part this year.
00:47:52.690 --> 00:47:53.460
Amazing.
00:47:53.550 --> 00:47:56.670
I know you're going to be tabling, are you going to be doing a talk?
00:47:56.670 --> 00:47:57.789
What are you going to be up to?
00:47:57.789 --> 00:47:58.373
Do
00:47:59.070 --> 00:48:00.621
we don't tend to have a table.
00:48:00.621 --> 00:48:08.221
What we do is we kind of tend to camp at self made heroes table and take advantage of their hospitality whenever we can, but.
00:48:08.670 --> 00:48:09.771
They're very good to us.
00:48:10.141 --> 00:48:15.641
We are going to be doing a talk this time, about collaboration and adaptation.
00:48:15.641 --> 00:48:19.170
I believe it's going to be called Collaborating with the Dead.
00:48:19.701 --> 00:48:22.422
So, just cashing in on some October spookiness.
00:48:22.606 --> 00:48:23.338
amazing.
00:48:25.427 --> 00:48:47.119
To end the podcast, it's nice to have a couple of things to think about, maybe reflections on how your books could be used in education or some reflection on your Experiences and you know what you would have liked in your time at school or any any thoughts Around the role that comics can play in education and
00:48:47.297 --> 00:49:21.086
I think part of it is this thing that we really feel passionate about is that there are lots of different sorts of readers in the world and I think the term reluctant reader has become a little bit of a sort of shame label and especially for educators that it's something that needs to be solved and that somehow reading for pleasure is in itself a moral good and it has to be a serious book for it to count and you know there's a really big bit weird, all of that kind of edifice that's around enjoying fiction.
00:49:21.536 --> 00:49:36.436
And I think that to encourage educators to cast the net very widely for what kind of, story enjoyments are available to everybody, is the best way to make sure that people can access.
00:49:36.976 --> 00:49:39.407
as wide a possible range of ideas.
00:49:39.836 --> 00:49:58.271
So there are people who have enjoyed the concepts and ideas in our books, which are quite, you know, they're political economy ideas and philosophical ideas, but have been able to access them who would not Have the reading capacity to have read the original.
00:49:58.552 --> 00:50:00.572
That's what we're in it for.
00:50:01.041 --> 00:50:22.481
And so to try and break down some of that, stuff about what's a proper book and what isn't, what, what children should be reading and at the same time to, and like when we said, why can't there be lots and lots of versions of a thing to adapt and to work on something that already exists is great if it's really good and you can.
00:50:22.503 --> 00:50:25.581
Represent it in a way that then it reaches more people.
00:50:26.362 --> 00:50:26.992
Why not?
00:50:27.302 --> 00:50:29.621
And that goes all the way down to early years.
00:50:29.672 --> 00:50:45.132
Like I just remembered that I accidentally said in a talk and I feel embarrassed about it sometimes that I described, Burglar Bill by Janet and Alan Alberg as crime and punishment for Key Stage One, but it's true.
00:50:46.226 --> 00:50:46.567
It's true.
00:50:47.581 --> 00:51:04.572
Yeah, and so, like, those things exist and they are, like, Burglar Bill engages with some really big moral and ethical ideas and it's told so beautifully and simply in narrative art in a way that people can access.
00:51:05.286 --> 00:51:09.916
You know, maybe Dostoevsky could have taken a leaf out of Janet and Alan Albergh's book.
00:51:09.916 --> 00:51:10.336
Yeah.
00:51:10.547 --> 00:51:34.856
I think as somebody who has, I mean, it's a really weird thing, you know, struggling to read but being able to write quite well, which always confused me because I can't possibly be dyslexic because I can write, but I just really like, when I try and read a book, all I can see is the pattern of the gaps between the words and then my brain just wanders off and I just can't concentrate.
00:51:34.856 --> 00:51:39.757
I find it very stressful and frustrating because there's a whole world out there.
00:51:40.697 --> 00:51:45.976
That other people can lose themselves in and I'd love that.
00:51:46.356 --> 00:51:47.097
I want that.
00:51:47.117 --> 00:51:52.206
and for me that's, you know, things like telly helps with that because it's so immersive.
00:51:52.547 --> 00:52:04.117
And what, what we try and do with our books is to make an immersive, an immersive environment for people who struggle to concentrate to really fall into.
00:52:04.146 --> 00:52:05.516
That's what I hope will happen.
00:52:05.516 --> 00:52:05.536
Um,
00:52:05.867 --> 00:52:09.197
And I just don't think it's that unusual to have a mind like Scarlett's.
00:52:09.496 --> 00:52:18.086
I think that there are lots of people who live that way, who were going around with this idea that everyone else can read, so I just need to be quiet and not make a fuss.
00:52:18.586 --> 00:52:26.117
And that what, what educators can do is to make as many different formats available as possible.
00:52:26.333 --> 00:52:28.362
Yeah, I think that's so true.
00:52:28.382 --> 00:52:37.949
And that's, yeah, really interesting and how I think just going back to your point around the different types of reading for pleasure and the different motivations and, it's a part of my job at National Literacy Trust.
00:52:37.949 --> 00:52:40.378
I do teacher training on reading for pleasure.
00:52:40.869 --> 00:52:47.010
And, one of the things we highlight is a study that was done in Australia about how, you know, people read for information and get enjoyment from that.
00:52:47.010 --> 00:52:57.480
People read for like, as a functional thing to improve the way that they're, I don't know, could be improving a skill that they need to gain, but it's, they read it for enjoyment and get enjoyment from that.
00:52:57.869 --> 00:53:01.139
what, from learning the skill through reading and all these different types.
00:53:01.170 --> 00:53:08.400
The immersive play is just, and the kind of immersion story is just one type of reading for pleasure out of many types of reading for pleasure.
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:20.844
And I think that's really an interesting perspective because I think it is definitely in recent years, it, the focus is on everyone should be reading for pleasure and it should be fiction you know, and within the it should be a certain type of book.
00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:21.360
yeah.
00:53:21.391 --> 00:53:24.311
And I think for people like me, it's not for want of trying.
00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:26.130
Like, I really would love to.
00:53:26.240 --> 00:53:29.380
I'd love to be somebody who can just lose themselves in a book.
00:53:29.510 --> 00:53:42.052
There's an interesting side of this that feeds into our process, which is Scarlet discovers or comes across or gets told about some obscure, depressing historical politics book.
00:53:42.833 --> 00:53:45.753
And she sends me, just read this, read this.
00:53:46.422 --> 00:53:49.373
I have read some really miserable stuff over the last few years.
00:53:50.543 --> 00:53:53.222
And the ones we make into books are the good ones.
00:53:53.336 --> 00:54:09.996
The other thing that I think is interesting educationally is the opportunity to, bring people into the idea of what it was like to live in the past and, and to try and, and get that sense across in a.
00:54:11.106 --> 00:54:12.726
In a gentle way.
00:54:12.746 --> 00:54:22.996
I'm very keen on history not being boring and, people being able to really feel what it's like to be a normal person in the past, not Henry VIII, you know, and,
00:54:23.322 --> 00:54:29.632
to humanize the people who are doing these things and to make their lives relatable.
00:54:30.251 --> 00:54:44.972
And I think No Surrender is interesting because you hear people arguing against votes for women, because the contemporary debates for and against, which is sort of a bit shocking, but that's what it was like.
00:54:44.972 --> 00:54:57.391
And you can relate to, you know, it has reflections in modern conversations about things like climate change and Brexit and so trying to really pull on the threads that make.
00:54:57.612 --> 00:55:01.961
History now as much as possible so that people can imagine.
00:55:02.422 --> 00:55:07.322
themselves in those shoes and imagine that those people are just people that it's not even that
00:55:07.416 --> 00:55:08.067
yeah.
00:55:08.666 --> 00:55:10.436
It really comes through to me.
00:55:10.436 --> 00:55:30.233
I love that, that sort of, the characters really did feel like, the people were real people and that although the world's changed, people haven't, and we still had frustrations and ambitions and, you know, you couldn't get into the feeling like someone that worked in a mill, you know, not happy, but just that was their life and they didn't know any better when actually that's not reality because humans aren't like that.
00:55:30.233 --> 00:55:33.673
Humans are looking across the road, humans are feeling tired, humans are, you
00:55:33.804 --> 00:55:41.590
absolutely, and this whole idea that, because there was a, you know, a lot of infant deaths that parents just got over it and carried on working in the mill and it
00:55:41.621 --> 00:55:43.771
same thing that you see in the news today, isn't it?
00:55:43.771 --> 00:55:52.110
You know, when you see, like, it's the same sort of approach to, you know, when there's migrant deaths and things, it's it's almost completely incomparable.
00:55:52.190 --> 00:55:52.447
sort of,
00:55:52.472 --> 00:55:53.911
Dehumanization, really.
00:55:54.052 --> 00:55:54.672
yeah, this
00:55:54.871 --> 00:55:55.251
Hmm.
00:55:55.641 --> 00:55:59.141
Yes, very much that at risk of being political.
00:55:59.141 --> 00:56:04.731
I think a good example of that is the reaction to the war in Ukraine and the reaction to the war in Gaza.
00:56:05.362 --> 00:56:05.942
Yeah,
00:56:06.101 --> 00:56:09.431
Yeah, Yeah, to, to compare and contrast
00:56:09.481 --> 00:56:18.052
How people respond to the human suffering on an individual level is very related to how much or how little people can imagine being in those shoes.
00:56:19.282 --> 00:56:20.532
yeah, yeah,
00:56:20.552 --> 00:56:20.981
yeah.
00:56:21.132 --> 00:56:21.592
agree.
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:36.088
and I think doing the sort of thing, doing comics or, I mean, things like Persep Maus and, you know, those books really bring you into somebody else's entire world so you can understand it.
00:56:36.777 --> 00:56:38.608
and those things are so valuable.
00:56:39.228 --> 00:56:43.708
And I think it's sort of important, you know, when you're making stuff like this.
00:56:43.708 --> 00:57:05.257
One of the reasons that we, the sort of criteria for the books that we've worked on it's really that they are an authentic voice, it's first person, so it's written by somebody who's had the lived experience of what's happening in the book, even though they're fiction, they're all loosely based on fact.
00:57:05.860 --> 00:57:09.219
and autobiographical in some, in some way or other.
00:57:09.730 --> 00:57:12.409
I mean Constance Ma wasn't working class,
00:57:12.570 --> 00:57:17.840
No, she was posh, but she was, she was marginalized because of her gender instead.
00:57:18.230 --> 00:57:26.239
So each time we've been raising the voice of a marginalized group, who's been trying to say, this is what it's like to live my life.
00:57:26.710 --> 00:57:28.800
And they've chosen fiction as the way to do it.
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.769
And the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist is.
00:57:32.474 --> 00:57:41.735
like rightly famous for being this first fictionalization of a working class life, but No Surrender should be just as famous, but it
00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:49.050
And this slavery really should be because this slavery is, is like on a, I think it's better than the
00:57:49.715 --> 00:57:51.994
I don't think I can wait for your version to come out.
00:57:51.994 --> 00:57:55.025
I think I'm going to need to read the, the original of the slavery.
00:57:55.025 --> 00:57:56.835
It's great, but it's out of print.
00:57:56.846 --> 00:57:58.496
You can, you can get it.
00:57:58.945 --> 00:58:04.746
I think Nottingham Trent University did an edition and I don't know if that's, Yeah.
00:58:04.755 --> 00:58:07.356
I don't know if it's widely available or
00:58:07.371 --> 00:58:15.416
called, there's a group called the Pendle Radicals who made a podcast, about this slavery, and that's how we discovered it.
00:58:15.985 --> 00:58:27.925
But because, although Ethel Kearney Holdsworth was really successful at the time, she later, lost her fortune, or I say lost, she spent her fortune on being a pacifist in World War I.
00:58:28.465 --> 00:58:37.204
She ran a literary pacifism magazine and poured all of her novel money into it and died in real obscurity.
00:58:37.284 --> 00:58:42.945
and the book itself is of all of her novels, the, the, the political one.
00:58:43.474 --> 00:58:47.735
And so it's not something you're going to be able to easily pick up in Waterstones.
00:58:48.105 --> 00:58:51.894
It is, the prose is really, really good.
00:58:54.362 --> 00:59:01.322
Our final question of the podcast, which, and you know, feel free, it could be a picture book, could be comic, could be anything.
00:59:01.362 --> 00:59:06.722
If we were to add one book to our to be read piles tomorrow, what would you recommend?
00:59:06.722 --> 00:59:07.623
You can have one each.
00:59:07.663 --> 00:59:08.313
I'll be generous.
00:59:08.721 --> 00:59:10.001
Scarlet, do you want to start us off?
00:59:10.001 --> 00:59:13.681
I'm going to say something really left field, which is typical of me.
00:59:14.161 --> 00:59:31.114
Um, there's a book, there's a book called Old MacDonald Had Some Flats, which was written, I think, in the late 60s, early 70s, and it was, it's actually written in New York, so the original is called Old MacDonald Had an Apartment Block, but I don't think it's as good.
00:59:31.114 --> 00:59:33.576
Um, and, um, I know.
00:59:33.936 --> 00:59:40.576
And it's basically, it's about the little people standing up against capitalist overlords.
00:59:40.806 --> 00:59:43.286
And I had it when I was a child and absolutely loved it.
00:59:43.295 --> 00:59:55.737
Didn't realize, you know, didn't understand that obviously there's more to it than the story But the story is, Old MacDonald is the caretaker of this block of flats, and the tenants are just hard work.
00:59:56.086 --> 01:00:07.206
And so, as the tenants start moving out, he replaces them with animals and vegetables, and starts growing carrots, and they're coming through the ceiling of the flat below, and stuff like that.
01:00:07.666 --> 01:00:17.976
And the,, the landlord comes along and tells him off, and tells him to stop it, and, you know, tries to chuck him out, but then realises that they could actually make quite a lot of money with a farm shop.
01:00:20.356 --> 01:00:35.126
It's, it's really, but the drawings are great and the whole sort of idea of doing something absurd but in normal surroundings, which is all, I love a kitchen sink thing, but that's got some absurdity to it.
01:00:35.137 --> 01:00:40.657
So yeah, that's a fun book for, for children, you know, children's book.
01:00:40.842 --> 01:00:41.612
that sounds brilliant.
01:00:42.422 --> 01:00:47.043
Sophie, what about you?
01:00:47.094 --> 01:00:50.153
If I was a high school.
01:00:51.048 --> 01:00:57.867
librarian or a high school person who is interested in, reading for pleasure and broadening things.
01:00:58.356 --> 01:01:05.271
I would recommend, a self made hero title by Rob Davis called The Motherless Oven.
01:01:05.572 --> 01:01:12.782
There are actually three books in it's a trilogy and they are off the wall.
01:01:12.851 --> 01:01:18.342
They, it's a alternate universe where it rains knives and it's about teenagers.
01:01:19.126 --> 01:01:23.416
Trying to survive in their universe.
01:01:23.806 --> 01:01:24.447
brilliant.
01:01:24.746 --> 01:01:26.606
The art is beautiful.
01:01:27.056 --> 01:01:35.856
The imagination is so wild and so simply expressed that you have no one, no trouble understanding the rules of this world.
01:01:35.856 --> 01:01:44.666
And they're not at all like our own world and all, but what I really, really like about it is that he gets really under the skin of the teenage experience.
01:01:45.286 --> 01:01:56.586
And so I think that if you were going to have some books to add to your graphic novel collection that you're hoping to entice readers in with, they would be a very good,
01:01:56.952 --> 01:01:59.371
So there, So it's the motherless oven.
01:02:00.177 --> 01:02:06.007
The Motherless Oven and then is it, is it The Can Opener's Daughter and then The Book of
01:02:06.217 --> 01:02:06.764
Yes.
01:02:06.764 --> 01:02:09.494
That, they sound amazing and exactly the sort of thing that I love.
01:02:09.494 --> 01:02:10.963
I love something that's a little bit
01:02:11.338 --> 01:02:11.579
Oh,
01:02:11.889 --> 01:02:12.239
uh,
01:02:12.409 --> 01:02:14.099
They're really, really, good.
01:02:14.329 --> 01:02:14.789
Yeah.
01:02:15.168 --> 01:02:19.119
And I know I've said something, but I'm not sure mine's even in print.
01:02:19.179 --> 01:02:20.889
So let me say something sensible.
01:02:20.889 --> 01:02:27.289
A creator who I really like is Guy Dalil, who's done quite a lot of stuff, of travelogue.
01:02:27.574 --> 01:02:28.713
Kind of stuff.
01:02:29.193 --> 01:02:37.601
Uh, his wife worked for Médecins Sans Frontières, so, so they were going all over the world and living in sort of war zones and places.
01:02:37.931 --> 01:02:58.429
And he's done these fantastic, graphic novels about the experience of being in North Korea and in Jerusalem and in, you know, sort of exploring, you know, these places and they're very lightly done but also really interesting and really give you a sense of what it's like to to be in those places.
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:09.804
And then he did a fantastic book called Hostage which is, based on the testimony of a man who was held hostage for A few years, I think, two or three years,
01:03:09.875 --> 01:03:19.625
I think if you're interested in comics craft and like the medium being used, well, they are really, really good examples of that.
01:03:19.659 --> 01:03:27.980
And hostage is really good for people who aren't big readers because there are very few words because it's just, it's a man in a room.
01:03:28.429 --> 01:03:29.190
Um, but.
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:42.159
But But the way that, the way that it has the sort of tension of the situation and, you know, and people speaking foreign languages that you don't understand, and it's just, it's really well done.
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:43.059
So I recommend
01:03:43.335 --> 01:03:44.715
That sounds absolutely brilliant.
01:03:44.735 --> 01:03:46.945
Well, that's a great bevy of recommendations.
01:03:46.954 --> 01:03:47.614
So thank you very much.
01:03:47.784 --> 01:03:49.005
And thank you for coming on the podcast.
01:03:49.005 --> 01:03:49.715
It's been amazing.
01:03:49.735 --> 01:03:51.344
The time's flown by and I've really loved it.
01:03:51.355 --> 01:03:52.114
So thank you.
01:03:52.454 --> 01:03:53.675
It's been lovely to meet you.
01:03:53.822 --> 01:03:54.822
Thank you for having us.
01:03:54.996 --> 01:03:55.436
you.
01:03:58.009 --> 01:04:03.018
The Ricard sisters that really enjoyed exploring the topic of adapting classically.
01:04:03.168 --> 01:04:03.648
Literature.
01:04:03.739 --> 01:04:04.248
Into graphic.
01:04:04.309 --> 01:04:04.818
Novel format.
01:04:05.028 --> 01:04:05.418
And all the benefits.
01:04:05.898 --> 01:04:06.349
And then really.
01:04:06.378 --> 01:04:08.568
Fascinating the way that partnership operates.
01:04:08.838 --> 01:04:14.248
I loved the idea of the ragged Trousered projects, funding, copies of the ragged Trousered philanthropist.
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:16.079
To go into schools and libraries.
01:04:16.108 --> 01:04:22.175
I'll put all the links to Sophie and Scarlet, social media and their website as I always do in the show notes.
01:04:22.175 --> 01:04:24.875
So if you want to access any information about that, please do.
01:04:24.875 --> 01:04:26.554
And I really recommend getting hold of.
01:04:26.855 --> 01:04:27.454
Their books.
01:04:27.454 --> 01:04:28.775
They're really great read.
01:04:28.844 --> 01:04:31.664
Genuinely really enjoyed accessing books.
01:04:31.664 --> 01:04:36.405
I otherwise wouldn't have read stories that I would not have been accessed at all if they went in that format.
01:04:36.644 --> 01:04:38.085
So that was really brilliant.
01:04:38.295 --> 01:04:40.454
And thank you for those excellent recommendations.
01:04:40.454 --> 01:04:49.907
I'm not going to give a recommendation this week because I did actually go out and get a copy of the motherless oven if the record sisters recommend a book to you, my goodness, you go out and get it.
01:04:50.117 --> 01:04:53.896
And I did, and it was absolutely brilliant and it just finished it really.
01:04:53.956 --> 01:04:54.916
Really blew me away.
01:04:55.367 --> 01:04:56.956
The bear, so right.
01:04:56.956 --> 01:04:58.967
The way that the world's created it's.
01:04:59.777 --> 01:05:00.407
There's so much.
01:05:00.407 --> 01:05:01.277
I don't understand.
01:05:01.306 --> 01:05:09.481
And yet I just accept it because of the way that the story is crafted a beautiful example of, how to use light and shade in the artwork as well.
01:05:09.512 --> 01:05:14.313
Just it's, it's all, black and white illustration, that there's such dynamics within that.
01:05:14.413 --> 01:05:15.612
It's a really beautiful.
01:05:15.682 --> 01:05:16.882
But to look at two.
01:05:16.913 --> 01:05:21.833
So I'm going to w recommend that book to you, and we've got something a little bit different.
01:05:21.833 --> 01:05:26.632
Normally in this section, since we've been sponsored very lucky to be sponsored by ALCS the podcast.
01:05:26.853 --> 01:05:32.112
I've been recommended some resources from their website, but did they actually got the opportunity to speak to?
01:05:32.123 --> 01:05:35.182
Barbara Hayes from ALCSs their CEO.
01:05:35.452 --> 01:05:38.213
You talked to me a little bit more about ALCSs work.
01:05:38.273 --> 01:05:44.782
I think I've, I've done my best to describe what they do and to promote their work, but it's always great to be able to speak to.
01:05:44.806 --> 01:05:47.896
Someone from an organization about what they do and why it's important.
01:05:48.106 --> 01:05:55.777
It really does link really well into what the podcast is about supporting in the work of, writers and the importance of literature and promoting that.
01:13:47.573 --> 01:13:56.972
Great little intro from Barbara that I loved hearing about her comics reading experience as a child brilliant to have, um, some comics interests that in her reading journey too.
01:13:57.193 --> 01:14:00.853
Thank you, Barbara, for doing a much better job of explaining what LLCs do.
01:14:01.182 --> 01:14:12.073
As I said, Bob, we'll be back next week and we'll be continuing our conversation and talking a little bit about the importance of copyright and plagiarism education and how teachers and librarians can play a part in that.
01:14:12.095 --> 01:14:20.195
And what that means in the world, in which AI is here to stay and very much part of our educational futures.
01:14:20.225 --> 01:14:23.286
So really interesting discussion on that too.
01:14:23.676 --> 01:14:25.206
Thanks very much for listening today.
01:14:25.265 --> 01:14:26.466
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
01:14:26.490 --> 01:14:27.932
I love the Ricard sisters.
01:14:28.023 --> 01:14:29.162
I'm sure you will have to.
01:14:29.403 --> 01:14:35.703
If you would like to support the podcast you can do so by re-tweeting sharing on your social media platforms.
01:14:35.912 --> 01:14:41.613
Letting your colleagues know about the podcast and also by leaving reviews, five stars, please.
01:14:41.882 --> 01:14:50.582
Oh on any platform that you listened to, that all helps people who have similar interests to you to find the content of the podcast, and grow our audience base.
01:14:50.613 --> 01:14:53.823
So thank you very much for all of the work that you do to support and share.
01:14:53.842 --> 01:14:57.222
the podcast on your platforms, that's it from me today.
01:14:57.273 --> 01:14:58.903
My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley.
01:14:58.922 --> 01:15:00.632
I'm the host and producer of comic.
01:15:00.632 --> 01:15:00.932
Boom.
01:15:01.113 --> 01:15:01.863
Thanks for listening.
00:00:09.598 --> 00:00:13.108
Hello, and welcome to comic boom, the comics and education podcast.
00:00:13.167 --> 00:00:18.207
If you're interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you.
00:00:18.259 --> 00:00:19.827
My name is Lucy Starbuck Bradley.
00:00:19.827 --> 00:00:34.707
And each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator and academic, a librarian or a creator of comics to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice and hopefully shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries classrooms, and hopefully onto your bookshelves at home too.
00:00:34.776 --> 00:00:40.018
This episode of comic, boom is sponsored by ALCS the authors licensing and collecting society.
00:00:40.043 --> 00:00:41.642
Hello, everyone today's episode.
00:00:41.642 --> 00:00:50.915
I'm very excited because I will be speaking to the Ricard sisters, Sophie and Scarlet Ricard who collaborate to create brilliant graphic novels.
00:00:51.185 --> 00:00:57.265
So if he does the words and Scarlet draws the pictures, as it says on their website, they were brought up in the Ribble valley in Lancashire.
00:00:57.283 --> 00:01:00.734
And a lot of their work features stories from around that region as well.
00:01:00.764 --> 00:01:04.156
For example, no surrender, which we'll we'll talk about in this episode.
00:01:04.224 --> 00:01:08.375
Scarlet has worked as a commercial artist, illustrator signwriter and portrait painter.
00:01:08.584 --> 00:01:13.204
Sophie has worked as a civil servant pub landlady cabin crew, and child counselor.
00:01:13.204 --> 00:01:17.765
So a real variety of roles leading up to becoming graphic novelists.
00:01:17.765 --> 00:01:18.334
I love that.
00:01:18.350 --> 00:01:22.990
The ragged Charles a philanthropist was published in autumn 2020 by self-made hero.
00:01:23.290 --> 00:01:26.492
It's a graphic adaptation of Robert Trestles socialists classic.
00:01:26.513 --> 00:01:30.593
In autumn 2022, they then bought out no surrender also was self-made hero.
00:01:30.753 --> 00:01:34.192
That book was a graphic adaptation of Constance Maud's suffrage classic.
00:01:34.192 --> 00:01:36.754
in this episode, we hear all about how they work together.
00:01:36.864 --> 00:01:40.634
And collaborate on that book despite living 200 miles apart as always.
00:01:40.634 --> 00:01:43.760
I'm really fascinated by the way in which people work together to create.
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:45.879
Books the records, this is a great example.
00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:49.088
Absolutely loved talking to them, finding out about their work about them.
00:01:49.105 --> 00:01:54.445
there are approaches to adapting classic literature and bringing it to a new audience in graphic novel form.
00:01:54.745 --> 00:02:10.246
Really really interesting and bring such a new element to discussions around the role that graphic novels can have in classrooms and libraries, I think is a really brilliant angle to take Sophie and Scarlet are also part of our lakes, international comics, art festival collaboration.
00:02:10.338 --> 00:02:11.550
They'll be at the festival this year.
00:02:11.550 --> 00:02:22.933
And talk to us a little bit about that we may remember we ran special episodes last year in the run-up to the lakes, international comics, art festival, featuring guests that would be appearing at the festival itself we are doing the same this year.
00:02:22.933 --> 00:02:28.723
I'm delighted to announce that the next four episodes will be lakes, international comics, art festival specials.
00:02:28.776 --> 00:02:34.716
A really interesting bunch of creators who will all be also be appearing at the festival at the end of September.
00:02:34.985 --> 00:02:42.276
So the festival is back at bonus on Windemere from Friday the 27th to Sunday, the 29th of September, 2024.
00:02:42.485 --> 00:02:44.885
You can get tickets online if you're up near that way.
00:02:44.885 --> 00:02:45.876
I'd definitely recommend it.
00:02:45.906 --> 00:02:50.225
I'll be traveling quite some distance to attend, and it is definitely worth it from my perspective.
00:02:50.310 --> 00:02:59.181
The events include live draws, interviews, presentations, workshops, exhibitions, book, launches, events for children with the little lift calf activities.
00:02:59.390 --> 00:03:04.040
There's also a comics marketplace where you can spend more money than you intended to on comics.
00:03:04.341 --> 00:03:05.270
I'm sure I will be.
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:10.501
And it provides a chance to get up close and talk to meets comics creators from across the world.
00:03:10.501 --> 00:03:12.300
And it really is an international event.
00:03:12.570 --> 00:03:18.420
So really looking forward to speaking to some creators who will be at the festival over the next three episodes after this one.
00:03:18.420 --> 00:03:19.403
Definitely recommend.
00:03:19.403 --> 00:03:22.298
Getting out, out to, um, lakes, international comics office.
00:03:22.298 --> 00:03:22.418
Right.
00:03:22.448 --> 00:03:26.768
And if you can't just checking it on their website, they Little LICAF, their children education arm.
00:03:27.157 --> 00:03:33.187
Provide some really interesting, and top quality resources for teaching with comics in the classroom too.
00:03:33.217 --> 00:03:34.507
So definitely check that out.
00:03:34.537 --> 00:03:37.896
If you're teaching with comics or running a comics club in your library.
00:03:37.926 --> 00:03:39.276
I definitely recommended.
00:03:39.278 --> 00:03:45.963
But now onto the main event for this episode, talking to Sophie and Scarlet Ricard, here's what they had to say.
00:03:49.534 --> 00:03:51.814
Hello Sophie and Scarlet, welcome to Comic Boom.
00:03:51.901 --> 00:03:53.671
Hello Lucy, thanks very much for having us.
00:03:54.111 --> 00:03:56.081
You are very welcome.
00:03:56.461 --> 00:04:04.401
I'm going to start the episode off, as I always do, by asking, I'll ask Scarlet first, can you tell me a little bit about your journey as a comics reader?
00:04:04.961 --> 00:04:06.171
Where did that all start for you?
00:04:06.171 --> 00:04:09.062
Was that from childhood or a little bit later on?
00:04:09.197 --> 00:04:16.009
It's a funny one this, I think it, I've never really been a comics reader.
00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:17.389
which is a funny thing.
00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:29.860
Um, I, I think my first introduction to comics was like a lot of people, Raymond Briggs, um our grandmother had Father Christmas in the room where we used to go and stay when we stayed with them.
00:04:29.860 --> 00:04:31.879
And we were there most weekends.
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:33.279
When we were kids.
00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:40.872
And so, I remember reading that, but thinking that that was the only book like that, I didn't know it was a thing that you could have comics.
00:04:40.872 --> 00:04:43.362
I thought it was just Raymond Briggs had done this one thing.
00:04:44.002 --> 00:04:51.802
And I remember just loving the observation of the every day and the sort of absurdity of it was right up my street.
00:04:51.925 --> 00:04:54.055
and then much later when I was about 14.
00:04:55.341 --> 00:05:15.084
to go down to stay with our, our dad and his wife down in Kent and, his wife had a, a book of, Posey Simmons, like her sort of Guardian comics, and I was just fascinated by that, and I read it over and over and over again, and a lot of the references went right over my head, no idea,
00:05:15.980 --> 00:05:16.550
yeah,
00:05:16.824 --> 00:05:20.485
about that sort of highfalutin London dinner party set.
00:05:21.444 --> 00:05:30.730
Um, but, again, it was her observation, she's so good at just observing everyday life and, you know, pinpointing stuff like that.
00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:38.399
So, so I was into those things, but really I'm not, embarrassingly, I'm not a big reader.
00:05:38.470 --> 00:05:42.839
I do struggle quite a lot, with reading like normal books.
00:05:43.889 --> 00:06:04.958
I'm not diagnosed but I think I'm probably ADHD and I just struggle with the concentration and it's sort of similar for me with all books because I need to put a lot of effort into sort of concentration and blocking everything else out in order to absorb the information and I always feel like I've got other things I should be doing
00:06:05.487 --> 00:06:06.137
Yeah.
00:06:06.187 --> 00:06:07.264
it's frustrating.
00:06:07.312 --> 00:06:10.442
but I think those two things were the sort of seminal.
00:06:10.517 --> 00:06:10.870
comics
00:06:10.870 --> 00:06:14.901
and do you enjoy exploring now the other comics that are out there as an adult?
00:06:14.911 --> 00:06:19.966
Or is that still something that you maybe do less for pleasure, more for, for, for research
00:06:20.451 --> 00:06:37.571
I, I, um, don't tend to do a lot for research, but, I mean, I love, there's so many fantastic things coming out, and I love, you know, the, the style of stuff, and there's great stories, but I just don't have time at the moment to properly read anything, because I'm always working.
00:06:38.461 --> 00:06:42.081
Um, so I feel guilty that I'm not like, I'm not with it.
00:06:42.505 --> 00:06:47.615
You know, about what people have been doing recently because I've just been head down drawing.
00:06:48.165 --> 00:06:49.505
getting, yeah, exactly.
00:06:49.516 --> 00:06:51.935
It's quite an all consuming task, I imagine.
00:06:52.235 --> 00:06:53.165
Sophie, how about you?
00:06:53.175 --> 00:06:56.517
Was yours a very similar journey, or was did you have a bit of a different path?
00:06:56.598 --> 00:07:04.997
Well, one thing that you're going to realize from spending this time with us is that Scarlett and I are completely different from each other.
00:07:05.677 --> 00:07:10.697
We are, like, people sometimes ask, are you real sisters or, like, metaphorical sisters?
00:07:10.697 --> 00:07:12.257
And I'm like, no, no, we are real sisters.
00:07:12.257 --> 00:07:13.067
We grew up together.
00:07:13.067 --> 00:07:14.057
We have the same parents.
00:07:14.396 --> 00:07:16.646
But we have not very much in common apart from that.
00:07:17.487 --> 00:07:17.776
So.
00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.839
I had the Beano like every other self respecting tomboy of the generation.
00:07:22.899 --> 00:07:34.160
But other than that, obviously reading the same books that Scarlet read, it's true that we just don't have like comics, what I think of as heritage.
00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:42.824
So sometimes the comics community Well, I mean, always the comics community is extremely welcoming and friendly and encouraging.
00:07:42.925 --> 00:07:45.654
when, when, when one makes work.
00:07:46.204 --> 00:07:56.422
But we find ourselves feeling a little bit sometimes like, imposters because we don't have this background steeped in comics culture.
00:07:56.841 --> 00:07:59.961
Like we were not going to comic cons as teenagers.
00:07:59.961 --> 00:08:01.312
We were not reading.
00:08:01.826 --> 00:08:04.846
any Batman, Spider Man, anything like that.
00:08:04.846 --> 00:08:06.497
We don't really understand.
00:08:06.660 --> 00:08:08.569
Yeah, I've, I have the same thing.
00:08:08.579 --> 00:08:15.689
Like I didn't read a lot of, you know, there's, there's so much that I feel like people assume that you've, you've read or accessed or been really immersed in.
00:08:15.699 --> 00:08:20.740
And I'm like, well, I don't really know much about superhero comics at all apart from the movies.
00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:29.350
Um, and, um, I'm more like came, yeah, I did read them as a child, but I'm more, my passion developed more as an adult.
00:08:29.410 --> 00:08:35.200
And so, yeah, I'm more interested in kind of like stories about women and, you know, and.
00:08:35.570 --> 00:08:36.289
Different things like that.
00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:43.279
Autobiography and stuff that maybe isn't, people don't know much about outside the comic scene.
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:49.740
So when people know that I like comics, they assume I'm talking about superhero comics and it's like, no, no.
00:08:49.809 --> 00:08:51.720
a very exciting medium.
00:08:52.147 --> 00:08:55.076
frustrating when it's described as though it's a genre.
00:08:55.897 --> 00:09:05.596
So you have, you know, the history section and the art section and the comic section, and it just makes no sense because the comics that we're making.
00:09:06.052 --> 00:09:11.390
And the Batman, Spider Man comics are not very closely related.
00:09:11.691 --> 00:09:13.240
It's a way of expressing it.
00:09:13.291 --> 00:09:14.331
That's exciting.
00:09:14.730 --> 00:09:17.691
And it means that people aren't necessarily accessing it.
00:09:17.740 --> 00:09:29.990
So we have feedback that for quite a lot of our readers, particularly with the ragged trouser philanthropists, that that was the first comic first full length work of narrative art.
00:09:30.331 --> 00:09:32.160
They'd attempted to read and they didn't know
00:09:32.206 --> 00:09:32.865
mm,
00:09:32.942 --> 00:09:33.322
which is a
00:09:33.398 --> 00:09:34.014
yeah.
00:09:34.014 --> 00:09:45.490
Yeah, completely, but great that there's something out there that you've made that can, can bring people into this Scarlet, how did it, how did it then turn out that you've, you're making graphic novels then, how did this happen?
00:09:45.604 --> 00:09:50.110
Amazing.
00:09:50.154 --> 00:09:51.754
since I was small.
00:09:51.798 --> 00:09:59.427
And I just, I think when I was really small, I just used to use it as a way of, sort of processing what was happening around me.
00:09:59.427 --> 00:10:06.215
And so I just used to draw every day as a sort of winding down thing, I think.
00:10:06.215 --> 00:10:09.878
I'm really early on, I really struggled to.
00:10:11.238 --> 00:10:14.857
to decide what to draw, because there's just too much stuff out there.
00:10:14.908 --> 00:10:18.827
Like, it's so immersive, the world.
00:10:18.898 --> 00:10:22.357
There's too many things, and I could never just pick one thing to draw.
00:10:22.378 --> 00:10:31.278
So, Sophie, who's always had stories in her head, all, ever since she was really small, used to tell me what to draw, to take the pressure off.
00:10:31.918 --> 00:10:35.118
So I just used to say, Oh, Sophie, tell me what to draw.
00:10:35.552 --> 00:10:39.225
And Sophie would say, I
00:10:39.270 --> 00:10:39.610
head.
00:10:39.921 --> 00:10:59.921
But I can quite clearly remember sitting at the dining table And it being high, like, so I was quite a small child, but I don't know how young I was and, and doing Scarlet saying, tell me what to draw and I would say a thing and then add to it and being told to stop breathing on you because I would be trying to watch,
00:11:02.446 --> 00:11:03.436
don't mind that now.
00:11:04.561 --> 00:11:06.301
I try and keep my distance
00:11:07.855 --> 00:11:16.860
So yes, it was a natural progression really for us because Sophie's a writer and I'm a drawer and we wanted to tell stories.
00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:25.220
And so it was kind of, we sort of fell into it because it was the best way for us to tell stories.
00:11:25.432 --> 00:11:34.542
and also the kind of the idea that if you work together you're more likely to actually do something, you're more likely to finish a project, you're egging each other on.
00:11:34.902 --> 00:11:42.251
And so like, I could eventually maybe have, you know, written a comic or a picture book or something.
00:11:42.422 --> 00:11:47.471
And so if he could have eventually written a novel, but, but I think the two of us together.
00:11:48.317 --> 00:11:49.706
made it actually happen.
00:11:50.047 --> 00:11:52.106
So we combined our strengths.
00:11:53.086 --> 00:11:56.996
So the first book we did was an original fiction, which was Man's Best Friend.
00:11:57.047 --> 00:11:59.407
And we did, we worked on that together for fun.
00:12:00.197 --> 00:12:06.638
kind of, I mean, it was sort of like inventing comics in a stupid way because we didn't have any proper reference.
00:12:07.398 --> 00:12:11.847
Just thinking about it now, looking back on it, it was like, yeah, we
00:12:12.102 --> 00:12:13.802
and we didn't ask for any help.
00:12:14.143 --> 00:12:14.552
We just.
00:12:15.293 --> 00:12:19.462
We just went for it, but we weren't taking ourselves very seriously either.
00:12:19.533 --> 00:12:20.842
We were just having a good time.
00:12:20.956 --> 00:12:21.267
Yeah.
00:12:21.294 --> 00:12:23.432
yeah, we just did it for the fun of it.
00:12:23.432 --> 00:12:24.562
and really enjoyed it.
00:12:24.582 --> 00:12:25.902
So we decided to keep doing it.
00:12:25.908 --> 00:12:32.239
So from that, did you develop a kind of a way of working that you replicated on your future projects?
00:12:32.298 --> 00:12:35.918
I'm fascinated by the collaboration that goes on with comics making.
00:12:35.979 --> 00:12:38.839
I find it really, really interesting how different people work together.
00:12:38.839 --> 00:12:44.390
And yeah, I don't know, Sophie, maybe you can start us off with explaining how that duo works.
00:12:44.524 --> 00:12:53.344
So our collaboration methods have developed over time, but it's not that different to how we approach Man's Best Friend.
00:12:53.683 --> 00:12:58.109
So the Main thing to understand is that we live about 250 miles apart.
00:12:58.928 --> 00:13:02.958
So we don't see each other in 3d very often at all.
00:13:02.958 --> 00:13:07.099
In fact, often the time we see each other is coming to LICAF.
00:13:07.739 --> 00:13:09.599
But then we get to go on a jolly together.
00:13:10.278 --> 00:13:15.568
So we've been collaborating online since before it was cool.
00:13:15.629 --> 00:13:22.095
Since way before COVID we were using, email and FaceTime to get things done.
00:13:22.115 --> 00:13:23.774
But essentially it goes like this.
00:13:24.174 --> 00:13:30.774
We have an idea for a story, whether that's an original story or a proposal of a book to adapt.
00:13:30.902 --> 00:13:41.745
And then we discuss it a lot and then I spend time with it and turn it into a sort of script, a bit like a film script, not at all like a comic script.
00:13:41.956 --> 00:13:42.635
So I'm not.
00:13:43.395 --> 00:14:02.225
At all as prescriptive of what as what we have since discovered real comics writers do I would not dream of telling Scarlet what angle to draw something from like I will tell her what to put on the page if it's important for the plot and I write the dialogue, but I don't
00:14:02.301 --> 00:14:11.691
But not but you don't do it in the sense of like what panels are gonna be there though Do you just say oh this house this house needs to have steps to the
00:14:11.895 --> 00:14:12.225
yeah.
00:14:12.525 --> 00:14:21.706
So it looks like a screenplay and it'll say something like, uh, uh, Joe is waking up, it's dark outside still, and he's wearing his pajamas.
00:14:22.250 --> 00:14:24.980
Like that's the kind of direction you might get.
00:14:25.451 --> 00:14:28.701
And then when that's finished, we'll read over it together.
00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:39.910
And at that point we do the most collaborative bit, which is we get a lever arch file full of A4 copy paper, usually already printed on one side.
00:14:40.410 --> 00:14:47.311
Cause we're cheap and Scarlet has a pencil and we go through the script and she really roughs out.
00:14:47.841 --> 00:15:03.081
What is going to go on each page so we can work out our left and right so we can get our double page spreads in the right places so that we can make sure where the dialogue is going to go on the page and we go through the whole book like that.
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:11.951
So this is something we learned the hard way with the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist but I'll never quite forgive myself that Scarlett drew a whole chapter that's not in the book.
00:15:12.061 --> 00:15:12.811
It got cut.
00:15:13.546 --> 00:15:13.956
Yikes.
00:15:14.010 --> 00:15:17.890
So we're much much better at planning now.
00:15:18.346 --> 00:15:20.115
And not wasting effort.
00:15:20.716 --> 00:15:21.395
Mm.
00:15:21.436 --> 00:15:28.446
so when we've got that rough version, then it's over to Scarlett and I start thinking about the next thing.
00:15:29.456 --> 00:15:31.755
And what do you do next, Scarlett?
00:15:32.083 --> 00:15:32.984
What to do next?
00:15:33.033 --> 00:15:41.043
So, so on the, on the rough version, we have, like code letters that, that attach to the script.
00:15:41.354 --> 00:15:47.484
So every time there's a bit of dialogue, it's, we have A, B, C, whatever next to it on the script.
00:15:47.543 --> 00:15:50.543
And I just, I've put that in the speech bubbles in the rough.
00:15:50.563 --> 00:15:53.764
So I know approximately what's going to go in each.
00:15:53.807 --> 00:16:01.778
bubble and then I lay the book out, on the computer and InDesign with all the panel layout and everything based on the rough.
00:16:02.788 --> 00:16:11.065
And then I draw it all on an iPad, which, I used to feel really uncomfortable about that because I hated the idea of not having originals.
00:16:11.065 --> 00:16:13.855
It didn't feel like proper somehow.
00:16:14.304 --> 00:16:17.315
Um, but actually it's really changed my life.
00:16:17.375 --> 00:16:20.664
I, I can, I can draw anywhere without making a mess.
00:16:21.195 --> 00:16:26.404
I, you know, I can just pick it up for five minutes on a train and carry on where I left off.
00:16:26.465 --> 00:16:32.725
And it's, it's just, and also Sophie and I both have a connective tissue disability.
00:16:33.445 --> 00:16:51.466
Which is genetic, not a coincidence, which means that, I actually find it very difficult to draw extended periods on paper now, without my hands going into spasm, and I find it really hard, but the iPad's really smooth, so I can draw for hours without it affecting me, yeah.
00:16:51.875 --> 00:17:14.925
So, so we, so what I do is every, I do it page by page, so I lay out, I lay out chapter by chapter on the computer, but then on the iPad it's page by page, so I'll sketch it out based on the rough, and then draw it properly, and then colour it, and do the lettering and everything, because I, for some reason, I like to do all the lettering by hand rather than using a font.
00:17:15.469 --> 00:17:44.354
and then at the end of the day I send the page to Sophie and then we have a little chat about it and make sure it's working all right and because often she's not expecting what I send her because of course I'm imagining it different to how she imagined it and So, so we have like a little conversation if something's not completely clear or, or Sophie's thinking about something that we need to put in for later on in the plot that like needs to be in the background or something, I'll add those bits after that.
00:17:44.953 --> 00:17:53.253
And then when I've completed a chapter, we send it to our editor, David Hine, who is brilliant with all of this stuff.
00:17:53.284 --> 00:17:55.233
And he goes through the chapter and.
00:17:55.989 --> 00:17:59.429
and comes back to us if there's, you know, something that doesn't make sense.
00:17:59.469 --> 00:18:00.719
And I mean, he's, he's
00:18:00.943 --> 00:18:02.544
generous notes, doesn't he?
00:18:02.838 --> 00:18:05.219
really lovely, yeah, very generous.
00:18:05.249 --> 00:18:17.628
And, and he's taught us a lot about making comics in this, in the time since, because we, he started with us with the Ragged Trouser Philanthropist self made hero, our publisher put us together with him.
00:18:17.628 --> 00:18:22.538
And so a lot of the stuff he's taught us is real craft stuff that we obviously didn't
00:18:22.568 --> 00:18:22.798
Didn't
00:18:22.838 --> 00:18:25.058
because we made it up as we went along.
00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:25.719
Yeah.
00:18:26.118 --> 00:18:27.328
So we've learned a lot.
00:18:27.763 --> 00:18:33.503
so when it came to doing No Surrender, we asked a self made hero if we could have Dave again, and they said yes.
00:18:33.513 --> 00:18:38.233
And he's also working with us on this one that we're working on at the moment as well.
00:18:38.308 --> 00:18:40.576
so he's like the third person in the team.
00:18:40.751 --> 00:18:41.392
Yeah.
00:18:41.571 --> 00:18:42.051
Yeah.
00:18:42.582 --> 00:18:43.392
That's brilliant.
00:18:43.432 --> 00:18:47.622
And how do you come about to actually, sort of, select the projects that you're going to work on?
00:18:47.622 --> 00:18:49.961
You've got two historical novels.
00:18:50.241 --> 00:18:51.701
Just being translated into comic form.
00:18:52.092 --> 00:18:58.827
is that what you see as your USP or are you thinking of doing something different in the future or what draws you to those projects?
00:18:59.073 --> 00:19:00.542
It's, it's a funny thing.
00:19:00.722 --> 00:19:06.167
how it came about, Scarlet, I mean, I always blame her for this.
00:19:06.178 --> 00:19:07.137
It was Scarlet's idea.
00:19:07.528 --> 00:19:11.428
She could, she explained earlier that she's not a big reader.
00:19:11.817 --> 00:19:14.057
And I, as I said, we're very different from each other.
00:19:14.057 --> 00:19:23.336
I am a big reader and there's nothing I like more than long, 19th century, early 20th century novels, preferably everyone dies in the end.
00:19:23.406 --> 00:19:26.747
I like them to be difficult and depressing if at all possible.
00:19:27.547 --> 00:19:39.096
And so Scarlet could see that particularly in the case of the Ragged Trouser Philanthropist, that it's one of those books that people wish they'd read, but it's actually really difficult and that there is a lot of value in it.
00:19:39.276 --> 00:19:52.452
In the work that people are not able to get to because it's hiding behind 255, 000 words of not d so it's making the most of our shared talents.
00:19:53.002 --> 00:20:02.643
To create something from the Ragged Childhood Philanthropist that people can access by using what Scarlet's good at, which is a picture telling a thousand words.
00:20:03.282 --> 00:20:11.061
And so of course, once we'd done that once, we then started realizing, well, often people come say, have you thought of this?
00:20:11.092 --> 00:20:12.011
Have you tried this?
00:20:12.112 --> 00:20:12.511
Don't know.
00:20:12.541 --> 00:20:15.281
They suggest books to us, but no surrender.
00:20:15.281 --> 00:20:15.521
Yeah.
00:20:15.916 --> 00:20:23.547
Who was like a sister to the ragged trousers philanthropists in that it's from the same era and but it's and it's telling
00:20:23.701 --> 00:20:25.257
Uh,
00:20:25.287 --> 00:20:28.086
different political story, but in a very similar way.
00:20:28.116 --> 00:20:34.487
So it's completely fiction, but it's written by someone who was there who had boots on the ground and was part of the movement.
00:20:34.797 --> 00:20:36.196
So it's very authentic.
00:20:36.767 --> 00:20:40.747
And the one that we're working on now also fits into that category.
00:20:40.846 --> 00:20:41.747
Similar era.
00:20:41.997 --> 00:20:45.307
written by, it's, it's raising the voice of someone who is there.
00:20:45.836 --> 00:20:56.596
And what we hope to do in the adaptations is not just to make them accessible, but to make them newly relevant so that people can enjoy the ideas that are in the story.
00:20:56.696 --> 00:21:05.777
And to feel close to the people in a way that reading the history wouldn't, because you can identify with them.
00:21:06.144 --> 00:21:26.518
there's something about sort of the, um, Edwardian prose from, from this distance that, that's like a layer of thick brown varnish over the past, and I think it's hard for people to access the feeling that these are real people who are just like you and me because of the because of that.
00:21:26.577 --> 00:21:34.753
and so one of the things that's quite fun to do is to try and scrape that back a bit and, you know, get our cotton buds out, whatever they do in conservation.
00:21:35.473 --> 00:21:45.256
Um, and, and try and bring those, Bring those people to, to the fore, and just remind everybody that these are real people who had real lives.
00:21:45.306 --> 00:21:52.796
So that's part of the fun of it, but also with the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, I attempted to read it several times.
00:21:52.976 --> 00:22:10.875
like a lot of people have, I found it really heavy going, but what, but I also found the description fascinating because he was a very descriptive writer and he described every tiny detail of, you know, painting a door or something.
00:22:11.137 --> 00:22:18.968
And I, I was trying to read it and thinking, God, if all of this description was in a drawing, the book would be half the length.
00:22:19.038 --> 00:22:20.407
It'd be so much easier to read.
00:22:20.417 --> 00:22:21.157
Yeah,
00:22:21.528 --> 00:22:24.137
And that's kind of where I originally got the idea.
00:22:24.137 --> 00:22:27.317
And I actually thought of that before we ever did Man's Best Friends.
00:22:27.407 --> 00:22:28.907
I didn't think that I would do it.
00:22:28.958 --> 00:22:29.667
I just thought, oh,
00:22:29.718 --> 00:22:30.928
Yeah, Wouldn't it be great?
00:22:30.929 --> 00:22:36.377
Um, Uh,
00:22:36.448 --> 00:22:38.837
of, I think I must have had it in the back of my mind.
00:22:38.953 --> 00:22:51.957
And then, of course, when, uh, the sort of Corbyn movement in the Labour Party was happening and everyone started talking about the Ragged Trousered philanthropist again, it made me think of the fact I'd, I'd thought that once.
00:22:51.957 --> 00:22:59.717
And so I suggested it to Sophie because by then we'd already, we'd done Man's Best Friend, so we were sort of a bit more like ready to do a new thing.
00:22:59.916 --> 00:23:03.507
And we weren't, we weren't looking for an adaptation to do.
00:23:04.182 --> 00:23:04.432
It
00:23:04.487 --> 00:23:09.962
We probably, we probably won't be drawing Edwardian politics indefinitely.
00:23:09.962 --> 00:23:14.712
We've described this slavery, which is our current work in progress, as the third in a trilogy.
00:23:15.303 --> 00:23:16.863
So the three go together.
00:23:17.060 --> 00:23:26.911
And this slavery draws the threads of, politics of femaleness and industrial labor politics together into one.
00:23:26.911 --> 00:23:31.740
So it kind of is quite a tidy way to end a set of three.
00:23:32.019 --> 00:23:38.769
yeah, it's a searing, it's another searing attack on capitalism and the patriarchy, but in one book.
00:23:39.459 --> 00:23:40.278
So, so
00:23:40.318 --> 00:23:41.338
I think Scarlet, would.
00:23:41.993 --> 00:23:44.634
Who would really like to be allowed to draw a light switch one day?
00:23:44.634 --> 00:23:46.334
A plug
00:23:46.388 --> 00:24:00.128
yeah, I just like to, it's all those little things you just never think about, like when, when you're drawing a character and you've got to think about them switching the light on, you know, like, have they got, have they got electricity?
00:24:00.963 --> 00:24:01.673
Is it gas?
00:24:01.673 --> 00:24:03.104
Has the gas been cut off?
00:24:03.344 --> 00:24:04.683
Have they got an oil lamp?
00:24:04.743 --> 00:24:06.743
Is it just a candle situation?
00:24:06.743 --> 00:24:07.013
Like,
00:24:07.608 --> 00:24:10.858
I was going to ask you about the sort of research that goes on.
00:24:10.858 --> 00:24:18.848
Like, just thinking about even just like the clothes that people are wearing and the, how much research do you have to do to get that right?
00:24:18.848 --> 00:24:23.669
Or are you not so worried about the details of that being completely accurate?
00:24:23.699 --> 00:24:26.019
Or is it more about the general sort of vibe?
00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:26.266
Are
00:24:26.266 --> 00:24:33.929
you would think from looking at what Scarlet draws, that she spends hours and hours looking up this stuff, but she just seems to just know it.
00:24:35.963 --> 00:24:36.784
you a time traveller?
00:24:37.644 --> 00:24:51.814
we were brought up in, in, um, a very sort of, I suppose, a very, um, curious, environment where our grandparents, particularly were really interested in domestic history.
00:24:54.203 --> 00:25:01.743
used to show me, she had all kinds of weird things in the kitchen, Victorian implements, and she'd show me how to use them and stuff.
00:25:01.743 --> 00:25:04.473
And so a lot of it is just in there somewhere.
00:25:04.653 --> 00:25:10.173
And, uh, like we've, we've grown up with, you know, old furniture and our dad's a joiner.
00:25:10.354 --> 00:25:11.983
He specialised in old buildings.
00:25:11.983 --> 00:25:18.773
My husband's a painter and decorator and I've done work with him, you know, so there's, and I've worked as a sign writer in the past.
00:25:18.784 --> 00:25:25.432
So, All of these things kind of tied in together, but, I do love a bit of research though, it has to be said,
00:25:26.222 --> 00:25:28.923
You've always been into history, haven't you?
00:25:29.252 --> 00:25:33.313
Like, right from, like, you even enjoyed it at school and stuff.
00:25:33.752 --> 00:25:35.712
But you, you go shopping, don't you?
00:25:36.472 --> 00:25:37.999
When, when we first start,
00:25:38.098 --> 00:25:58.209
yeah, I, I've got, I've got Pinterest, and I, I go around, like, finding good outfits and stuff, so I, I go shopping with no money on Google, on Google Images, and, and anything that looks, Like, oh, I could imagine that person wearing something like that, then I just save it in the Pinterest for that person.
00:25:58.628 --> 00:26:02.179
And then I can go back and refer to it in the future.
00:26:02.179 --> 00:26:15.393
So like when I'm having to draw, yeah, when I'm having to draw the same place, like the same room over and over and over again, it's quite good to have the original source material every now and then to just refer to.
00:26:15.413 --> 00:26:19.847
Like, you know, I'm drawing a room that's got a grand piano in it at the moment.
00:26:20.097 --> 00:26:26.718
And every now and then, instead of using it from my memory, I'll just have another look at it just in case I've forgotten how it goes.
00:26:27.397 --> 00:26:33.101
But I'm very, very lucky in the sense that, I've always, I've always really drawn from memory.
00:26:33.101 --> 00:26:36.270
I don't tend to use, I don't tend to draw from sight.
00:26:36.320 --> 00:26:42.240
Got a very good, it seems to me, remarkable 3D visual imagination.
00:26:42.260 --> 00:26:48.520
So if you draw a scene from one side, And then you start to draw it from the other side.
00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:52.111
You just know what it looks like already, which absolutely baffles me.
00:26:52.151 --> 00:26:53.641
I can't even reverse park.
00:26:54.010 --> 00:26:58.431
Like, I don't understand how it works, but it, it comes easily to you, doesn't it?
00:26:58.471 --> 00:27:00.520
That 3D imagination.
00:27:01.665 --> 00:27:02.955
That's really interesting.
00:27:03.015 --> 00:27:11.724
Yeah, I sort of, I think of myself being in the room and so I'm sort of in my head moving around and thinking about what's behind you and what's in front of you.
00:27:12.013 --> 00:27:13.683
I love all I love the challenge.
00:27:14.354 --> 00:27:18.618
And also what you were saying about, accuracy in some ways.
00:27:18.618 --> 00:27:18.868
Yeah.
00:27:18.909 --> 00:27:20.909
Accuracy is great.
00:27:20.949 --> 00:27:26.816
And, and it helps to be weird to make, the reader feel immersed in the world, I think.
00:27:26.816 --> 00:27:30.286
But I don't take it so seriously that I can't sleep at night.
00:27:30.326 --> 00:27:34.596
Like, I think it's like, um, it's like adapting for film.
00:27:34.675 --> 00:27:39.935
I think sometimes things will just not be quite right because you can't get everything perfect.
00:27:40.486 --> 00:27:47.205
And one of the benefits of drawing 1910 is that nobody's around now who remembers what it was like.
00:27:47.721 --> 00:27:48.891
We do have like,
00:27:48.965 --> 00:27:49.316
a bit.
00:27:50.431 --> 00:27:59.401
we have an overriding principle that the story and the communication of the story and the enjoyment of the reader comes first before everything.
00:28:00.336 --> 00:28:01.086
Mm.
00:28:01.306 --> 00:28:11.313
And so, we will adapt for the enjoyment of the reader first, then accuracy, authenticity comes after that.
00:28:11.532 --> 00:28:14.803
So sometimes we will bend the rules to make it work.
00:28:15.123 --> 00:28:23.762
You've got to make the most of the medium, but also it's, there is no point in making a perfect book if nobody reads it,
00:28:24.103 --> 00:28:24.702
Yeah.
00:28:24.823 --> 00:28:25.242
Yeah.
00:28:25.482 --> 00:28:26.232
Really agree.
00:28:26.323 --> 00:28:26.742
Yeah.
00:28:27.722 --> 00:28:32.904
And how do you, I'm really interested in character because there's, there's, a lot of people in your books.
00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:36.835
Like, there's a lot of different characters and they all, they, I feel like.
00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:47.880
They feel really real as well and, you know, very distinct from one another and, but in terms of the character design, it's not like a simple, like, oh, that one's got a hat on and therefore every time I see someone's hat I know it's that character.
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.539
It's, you know, they're very specific.
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:50.490
That's how I draw.
00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:52.940
Stick a hat on them.
00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:53.869
That technique.
00:28:56.049 --> 00:28:56.609
Exactly.
00:28:57.690 --> 00:28:59.910
So how do you do that character design?
00:29:00.348 --> 00:29:04.481
So it comes from the two of us being so different again, I'm just realizing.
00:29:04.481 --> 00:29:08.491
So I've got quite an analytical way, uh, uh, approach.
00:29:08.942 --> 00:29:12.751
And so when I'm doing the adaptation, I try and distill.
00:29:12.751 --> 00:29:16.321
It's like, um, having squash instead of juice.
00:29:16.352 --> 00:29:18.366
You've got to do a lot with the juice.
00:29:18.757 --> 00:29:19.386
volume.
00:29:19.777 --> 00:29:23.946
So you've got to try and distill a character into their most essential features.
00:29:24.406 --> 00:29:33.289
And so, um, I, I might end up cutting things about them that are less relevant to their purpose in the story, that kind of thing.
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:47.269
And so I have this analytical framework that they go into, but then when I hand over to Scarlet, she has this really immersive style where she basically walks for a mile in their shoes and she's drawing them.
00:29:47.269 --> 00:29:51.730
She, she does the faces like she is really imagining being there with them.
00:29:51.730 --> 00:29:52.960
They feel very real.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:59.950
And so the combination of the two, I think is how it ends up being that way.
00:30:00.230 --> 00:30:02.519
We do do the other things though.
00:30:02.609 --> 00:30:06.400
Like for example, in No Surrender, we've got three.
00:30:06.765 --> 00:30:07.744
Prominent women.
00:30:07.805 --> 00:30:09.914
And we've got a brunette, a redhead and a blonde.
00:30:10.204 --> 00:30:10.884
Cause why wouldn't
00:30:11.019 --> 00:30:15.869
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
00:30:15.984 --> 00:30:22.194
but yeah, and trying in the Ragged trouser philanthropist, at least people kept the same outfits on mostly all the way through.
00:30:22.384 --> 00:30:26.275
So you can distinguish them by their clothes in no surrender.
00:30:26.315 --> 00:30:36.244
It was part of the plot that our main character, Jenny would like go dressing up as this and then that, and so you've got to make sure she's still her when she takes her dress off, you know.
00:30:36.999 --> 00:30:48.998
Yeah, and actually the characters in this slavery that we're working on now, again, You know change clothes and experiences and stuff and you have to make sure they're definitely still there yeah, it's an interesting one.
00:30:49.218 --> 00:30:55.770
I think um, I don't think Of myself as being great on character design.
00:30:55.780 --> 00:31:14.519
Like I don't put an awful lot of time and effort into it Um, I tend to i've found that I can't really draw them until I know them Which, I know it sounds, it's all chicken and egg, but I can't know them until I've seen them living and, and saying things and thinking stuff.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:27.420
So I just start, I start the book and then get to, get to know them while I'm drawing them and then inevitably go back to the first few pages and redraw them at the end
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:29.400
That's really interesting.
00:31:29.420 --> 00:31:32.039
And then readjust it back to the person that you now know.
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:32.680
I love that.
00:31:32.771 --> 00:31:38.071
Yeah, because it is really weird how they become their own selves very quickly
00:31:38.326 --> 00:31:41.396
You've also got some interesting likenesses in this slavery.
00:31:41.396 --> 00:31:47.777
We've got a mother and daughter that look related, that not alike, but you can see where she gets it from.
00:31:48.086 --> 00:31:51.196
And a father, a father and daughter as well in that same way.
00:31:51.196 --> 00:31:53.196
And that's an interesting new angle for us.
00:31:53.196 --> 00:31:54.406
It's been fun to work on that.
00:31:55.182 --> 00:31:55.811
Mmm,
00:31:56.511 --> 00:32:05.632
and as they get, because in this slavery there's a time jump of six years in the middle of the book, so I've also had to make the characters suddenly six years older.
00:32:05.795 --> 00:32:09.961
you know, and, and it's, six years is like a subtle amount time in a way
00:32:10.046 --> 00:32:12.570
Yeah, exactly, because it's not like 20 years
00:32:12.570 --> 00:32:18.321
but at the beginning of the book there's like toddlers who are now, you know, seven or eight or whatever, you know.
00:32:19.214 --> 00:32:21.714
Yeah, it is really, it is fascinating.
00:32:21.815 --> 00:32:33.625
One of the really, I find it a bit embarrassing, the one we're working on at the moment, the two main characters are sisters, and this is nothing to do with us, this was written by Ethel Carney Holdsworth, who wrote the original.
00:32:33.674 --> 00:32:37.034
The description that Sophie, because Sophie does like a cast list,
00:32:37.144 --> 00:32:39.334
I have to confess, I made a PowerPoint.
00:32:40.993 --> 00:32:41.574
She did.
00:32:42.074 --> 00:32:43.703
And it's been very useful.
00:32:44.284 --> 00:32:44.584
Thank
00:32:44.739 --> 00:32:44.919
This
00:32:44.923 --> 00:32:45.334
Thanks, though.
00:32:45.398 --> 00:32:45.759
cute.
00:32:48.281 --> 00:32:55.442
Yeah, she made the PowerPoint of all the main cast and then the sort of, extras and stuff, you know.
00:32:55.811 --> 00:33:01.281
So, so I got to say, and, and also, God, she, she, Sophie really does love a spreadsheet.
00:33:01.632 --> 00:33:06.971
She also laid out the whole story and where all the characters reappear.
00:33:06.991 --> 00:33:15.791
So, so when I've got crowd scenes, In this book that I'm working on now, the crowd, the people in the crowd are recognisable characters that will recur
00:33:16.396 --> 00:33:16.616
Mm,
00:33:17.844 --> 00:33:22.691
and, That was because Sophie had like laid it all out, which chapter they were going to appear in and stuff.
00:33:22.704 --> 00:33:32.164
and so, Sophie had given me a little bit of a description and described one sister as being like a dove and the other sister being like a hawk.
00:33:32.173 --> 00:33:40.324
and the way I've drawn them, I've accidentally made them really look like us, which is really, like, it's really embarrassing.
00:33:41.213 --> 00:33:42.023
If anything.
00:33:42.278 --> 00:33:51.098
I've turned into the character I'm drawing because when I started I had shorter hair and it wasn't that curly and suddenly I've got like long curly hair and that's this.
00:33:51.679 --> 00:33:52.888
It's really strange.
00:33:52.929 --> 00:33:54.318
Yeah, I'm turning into her.
00:33:55.054 --> 00:33:56.253
That is creepy.
00:33:56.568 --> 00:33:58.949
I didn't turn into Frank Owen, but.
00:33:59.314 --> 00:33:59.763
Well, I don't know.
00:33:59.794 --> 00:34:00.534
Maybe I did.
00:34:00.663 --> 00:34:01.913
Maybe I did politically.
00:34:02.669 --> 00:34:02.888
Um.
00:34:02.943 --> 00:34:03.503
I'm not sure.
00:34:04.276 --> 00:34:08.579
But it is fascinating the way that characters take on their own, their own selves.
00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:10.679
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.869
Can you tell us a little bit more about your next project?
00:34:13.869 --> 00:34:15.320
When's that going to be out?
00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:23.271
Is there like an easy synopsis that listeners can, uh, just to whet their appetite for the next book?
00:34:23.666 --> 00:34:25.396
So this slavery.
00:34:25.905 --> 00:34:35.996
is a novel written by a woman called Ethel Carney Holdsworth who,, started work in the mills age 11.
00:34:36.815 --> 00:34:37.146
Yeah.
00:34:37.646 --> 00:34:46.565
And then when she was 18, had her first book of poetry published, she was an extremely talented writer who went on to become a really successful novelist.
00:34:46.795 --> 00:34:49.646
She wrote romantic novels about mill girls.
00:34:49.797 --> 00:34:53.603
And one of them was actually made into a film in the twenties.
00:34:53.713 --> 00:34:57.003
So it must have been one of the first doing the film of the books.
00:34:57.434 --> 00:34:58.574
She was outselling H.
00:34:58.614 --> 00:34:58.804
G.
00:34:58.804 --> 00:34:59.224
Wells.
00:34:59.233 --> 00:35:01.043
She was incredibly successful.
00:35:01.543 --> 00:35:09.684
This Slavery is her unpopular book because she, was so rude as to mix romance and politics.
00:35:09.693 --> 00:35:19.153
So instead of it just being a cheap romance for mill girls to read, it was a cheap romance for mill girls to read that encouraged them to go on strike.
00:35:19.153 --> 00:35:32.514
So, so the book itself is the story of two sisters who grow up Working in the mills, their father is dead and they live with their mother and grandmother in a little house in respectable poverty.
00:35:32.903 --> 00:35:37.414
And then it just very much like today, it only takes one thing to go wrong.
00:35:37.724 --> 00:35:42.813
And they are destitute because the difference between coping and not coping is a very thin line.
00:35:43.744 --> 00:35:47.114
And basically the story is about what happens next.
00:35:47.114 --> 00:35:49.853
And the two sisters choose very different paths.
00:35:50.414 --> 00:35:54.554
One of the sisters is a real firebrand, a very angry person.
00:35:54.554 --> 00:35:55.253
And she.
00:35:55.583 --> 00:36:00.443
Becomes politically radicalized and causes no end of trouble.
00:36:01.164 --> 00:36:09.483
The other sister has chronic illness and has the chance to get out of this life by marrying rich.
00:36:09.983 --> 00:36:12.423
So she becomes the.
00:36:12.824 --> 00:36:17.733
other side, if you like, because she marries one of the people who ends up owning a mill.
00:36:18.184 --> 00:36:23.614
And so the two sisters lives run in parallel in the same time, but having very different experiences.
00:36:24.014 --> 00:36:31.844
And it all comes to a head in a, piece of industrial action that involves the whole town and all kinds of skullduggery going on.
00:36:31.903 --> 00:36:46.239
And you really become involved in the moral tussles that the two sisters have and also in their characters, how they choose to react the choices that they make.
00:36:46.398 --> 00:36:52.072
And the slavery of the title is, to do with, You either, as a woman, you've got a choice.
00:36:52.072 --> 00:36:53.771
A working class woman has a choice.
00:36:53.771 --> 00:37:00.192
You either work in the mill and you're a slave to the boss and the, and the, you know, where you're being paid real pittance.
00:37:00.831 --> 00:37:03.641
Or you marry a man that you don't love.
00:37:04.411 --> 00:37:07.751
And then you're sort of under, under him.
00:37:07.958 --> 00:37:09.411
you've got no other option.
00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:12.661
And, I mean, obviously, if you're lucky, you can marry a man you do love.
00:37:12.710 --> 00:37:13.340
But, that's
00:37:13.376 --> 00:37:13.876
Yeah.
00:37:14.130 --> 00:37:15.731
But you still would belong to him.
00:37:15.896 --> 00:37:16.996
you still would belong to him.
00:37:16.996 --> 00:37:19.916
Yeah, you have no, no autonomy.
00:37:19.927 --> 00:37:20.927
So, yeah.
00:37:20.981 --> 00:37:35.757
Carney Holdsworth made some really brave and radical points basically raising the question is what is the difference of selling your labor by the hour to run a loom and selling your body by the hour?
00:37:36.302 --> 00:37:37.711
In other ways.
00:37:37.762 --> 00:37:40.322
And what is the difference between marriage and that?
00:37:40.434 --> 00:37:44.153
So it, the, the slavery of the title is about sexual slavery.
00:37:44.164 --> 00:37:45.563
It's about wage slavery.
00:37:45.574 --> 00:37:55.304
It's about how the entire economic system is underpinned by this, unpaid labor of women, which is not completely gone away.
00:37:55.304 --> 00:37:55.954
Has it?
00:37:56.034 --> 00:37:56.384
No.
00:37:58.418 --> 00:37:59.009
That sounds
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:01.599
It's really well written as well.
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:02.579
It's exciting.
00:38:02.588 --> 00:38:06.989
It's got a lot of, riots and fires and lots of romance.
00:38:07.313 --> 00:38:12.483
of crown scenes, loads of horses, all the things Scarlet likes best when I put them in the script.
00:38:15.608 --> 00:38:16.068
Yeah,
00:38:16.878 --> 00:38:17.579
Wow, that
00:38:17.739 --> 00:38:19.559
I was just thinking another thing.
00:38:20.148 --> 00:38:22.449
I was just thinking, so we're going back to characters.
00:38:22.509 --> 00:38:24.668
I was just thinking about the Ragged Trouser Philanthropist.
00:38:25.179 --> 00:38:30.748
The original story, I think had something like 95 different people in it.
00:38:31.610 --> 00:38:40.659
and so Sophie had to do quite a lot of work at the beginning to consolidate some of those people into one person or decide who just to cull
00:38:40.717 --> 00:38:58.038
And that's, that's how the spreadsheet works, because what I would do is work out what a person's function is, and then maybe merge three people into one, so the same person can keep coming back to, to provide a function, as opposed to introducing a new person every time.
00:38:59.003 --> 00:39:01.992
Or sometimes you might cut a whole B plot.
00:39:02.472 --> 00:39:12.543
And the other thing the spreadsheet's good for is if somebody dies or goes away, to black them out so you can't accidentally have them at the back of the room in another scene after they've died.
00:39:12.563 --> 00:39:14.182
Because it would be really easy to do that.
00:39:14.182 --> 00:39:21.742
When you're drawing a page a day for 18 months, like, it's very easy to lose track of that kind of
00:39:21.902 --> 00:39:22.813
yeah, absolutely.
00:39:22.813 --> 00:39:23.693
I can imagine.
00:39:23.742 --> 00:39:30.543
And we're both really enjoying working on it as well, because it was written in East Lancashire, where we're from.
00:39:31.072 --> 00:39:42.257
So, so there's a real, sort of sense of place about like the, the town itself is a character in this one in a way that it's not really in the others.
00:39:43.088 --> 00:39:51.838
And to the extent that we, that we've been there and spent days there walking about getting a real feel for the place, which we didn't do before.
00:39:52.427 --> 00:39:56.217
We've really thrown ourselves into this one, haven't we, in a different way, which is
00:39:56.407 --> 00:40:00.327
Yeah, it's got real sense of place and a lot of weather.
00:40:00.489 --> 00:40:00.996
yeah.
00:40:00.996 --> 00:40:04.936
I must admit, if I never see a cobble again, I'll be quite happy.
00:40:07.976 --> 00:40:11.277
Wet cobbles quite a challenge.
00:40:16.644 --> 00:40:39.295
I was going to ask you, so obviously social justice is a really clear theme in your work and last year when we did a Lakes International Comics Art Festival special, which is, this is the second year that we've done that, we asked all of the guests on those special episodes a question I just thought was really pertinent to ask you again this year, which do you think that comics can change the world?
00:40:40.114 --> 00:41:09.746
I mean, there's, there's a, there's a quote from Marx, Uncle Karl, that Sophie can probably remember better than I can, basically saying that all the novels and stories of, about, about, Economics and politics and the way people live, written by people like Dickens and Tolstoy and people have done more for society than all the economists and politicians put together.
00:41:10.356 --> 00:41:13.465
Because all it takes is something like Oliver Twist.
00:41:13.465 --> 00:41:16.155
And people can imagine what it's like to be an orphan,
00:41:16.436 --> 00:41:17.920
Mm mm-Hmm
00:41:18.135 --> 00:41:30.766
what it might be like to be in debtor's prison, or, you know, like, putting yourself in someone's shoes is a much better way of understanding a situation, I think, than being preached at.
00:41:31.835 --> 00:41:55.655
So those realist novelists like Flaubert and Dickens and Tolstoy and people like that were getting into the homes of influential people who had the power to change things and asking them to have some sympathy or some empathy with people living in poverty.
00:41:55.693 --> 00:41:58.233
Which was not really accessible to them before.
00:41:58.523 --> 00:42:01.934
And so, stories change the world for sure.
00:42:01.974 --> 00:42:03.824
It's the only thing that really ever does.
00:42:03.903 --> 00:42:08.570
I mean, a really good example of that is the recent drama about the post office scandal.
00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:09.809
Yeah.
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:14.550
You know, that's been rumbling on for years, but everybody was talking about it that weekend, weren't they?
00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:28.750
And comics have their place in that because one of, one of the real drivers as to why we operate in this medium is that there's loads and loads of different ways to tell the story.
00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:31.309
And there's loads of different types of people in the world.
00:42:31.369 --> 00:42:36.775
People are able to access or have a preference for different mediums.
00:42:37.324 --> 00:42:39.175
So there will be some people.
00:42:39.844 --> 00:42:56.425
Who like me like to sit in silence with a fat book full of words and there are also people who would never engage with that content at all unless it was a film or a graphic novel or a play or a song.
00:42:56.465 --> 00:43:01.954
Like, why can't we have every version of a story so that as many people as possible can enjoy it?
00:43:02.003 --> 00:43:11.431
so it's not specifically that comics on their own can change the world, but as, but as a storytelling medium, it can certainly make a difference to people.
00:43:11.431 --> 00:43:13.251
And it's interesting.
00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:25.813
I mean, obviously, you know, I mean, we're kind of riding on Robert Tressel's coattails and, you know, and, Constance Maud and Ethel Carney Holdsworth to an extent with the things that we've been working on recently.
00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:40.271
But it's so exciting when you meet a young person who's been so taken up with it that it makes them angry or, you know, in fact, I, I was in a bookshop a couple of years ago, just, just after, No Surrender came out.
00:43:40.521 --> 00:43:49.481
I was in a bookshop and I overheard a woman with two teenage children in, in the shop talking to the shopkeeper.
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:55.161
And she was saying about her daughter, it was obviously her daughter and her daughter's friend who were in the shop with her.
00:43:55.530 --> 00:43:57.601
And she said, oh, she's got really into this.
00:43:57.610 --> 00:44:00.621
And every now and then she puts it down and just goes, oh, men! And
00:44:01.115 --> 00:44:01.856
ha ha ha
00:44:02.056 --> 00:44:04.016
And I was just in the background in the shop
00:44:04.141 --> 00:44:05.934
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! ha!
00:44:06.215 --> 00:44:29.615
great, you know, it's just, it's so fun when you hear people like really engaging with that, with that content, especially, you know, like there was a young man who was obviously at university or something who saw us on one online thing and he said I've been trying to read the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist but it makes me so angry and we were really pleased
00:44:30.731 --> 00:44:34.030
So there's nothing we like better than subverting young minds.
00:44:35.190 --> 00:44:46.920
And that's one of the reasons we have done things like, we've got the Ragged Education Project, so you can donate the cover price of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist on our website.
00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:51.811
And we have a big list of school librarians who've requested a copy.
00:44:52.121 --> 00:44:56.971
And so every time someone donates a copy, we send it to the next school on the list.
00:44:56.971 --> 00:45:00.451
And we've sent hundreds out that way, but we've got hundreds of names that are still there.
00:45:00.746 --> 00:45:01.235
Waiting.
00:45:01.715 --> 00:45:15.771
So it's a really interesting way for, because what we find is that the, fans of the original work come across the comic version and say, I didn't know this kind of thing existed and want to share it.
00:45:15.802 --> 00:45:24.612
So many people in their sixties and seventies say to us, this was put in my hands when I was a teenager and it's changed the way I've seen the work, the world ever since.
00:45:25.371 --> 00:45:27.081
And they want to pass that on.
00:45:27.527 --> 00:45:35.226
And so that's a way of doing it and getting it in school libraries is such a great way of getting in front of hundreds of teenagers.
00:45:35.297 --> 00:45:36.599
Yeah, that's brilliant.
00:45:39.556 --> 00:45:46.967
Can you tell us a little bit about, your relationship with Lakes International Comics Art Festival and what you're hoping to do or see this year at the festival.
00:45:47.172 --> 00:45:54.581
We are really excited to be joining in this year because we're big fans of the Lakes International Comic Art Festival.
00:45:54.592 --> 00:45:56.492
We, we, it's our favorite competition.
00:45:57.592 --> 00:46:00.157
One, and we've been, we've been going to it.
00:46:00.697 --> 00:46:06.817
We, we were discussing this earlier, I think since 2017, which is much longer than we thought we had.
00:46:06.817 --> 00:46:09.487
But anyway, we, we've been going there ever since.
00:46:09.492 --> 00:46:16.836
We first brought man's best friend out, which we self-published and, and Hawked about the place and took it to to, uh, the
00:46:16.856 --> 00:46:20.967
In fact, we were remembering this, weren't we, at our first time at the Lakes.
00:46:20.967 --> 00:46:26.594
We had Man's Best Friend and we were offering it to, Myriad.
00:46:26.594 --> 00:46:28.523
Is that right?
00:46:28.954 --> 00:46:32.063
And Daryl Cunningham was sitting at the table.
00:46:32.114 --> 00:46:32.574
And.
00:46:33.778 --> 00:46:38.454
I think he insisted on buying one from us, and then he was the person.
00:46:39.414 --> 00:46:45.153
Yeah, he was the person who taught us that when you sign it, you have to draw a little picture in it.
00:46:45.184 --> 00:46:53.184
That's how comics naive we were, that we didn't realize that, that, and, Scarlet had to quickly draw a dog in the front for Daryl.
00:46:53.454 --> 00:46:58.594
And I think about that so often every time we're doing a signing and it's got like more and more elaborate.
00:46:58.594 --> 00:47:01.034
And I was thinking, you know, it's that kind of thing.
00:47:01.034 --> 00:47:05.583
People are so kind and the Lakes has got such a fantastic atmosphere for that stuff.
00:47:06.054 --> 00:47:07.474
And it's lovely to see.
00:47:07.949 --> 00:47:14.829
familiar faces that you've not seen since the same time last year, but also to meet new people who are making new things all the time.
00:47:14.878 --> 00:47:15.469
It's lovely.
00:47:15.844 --> 00:47:33.420
I love the mixture of stuff, you know, seeing things from around the world, you know, that you wouldn't have any idea about, you know, Indian comics and, and Russian, you know, sort of documentary illustration and, you know, it's just so much fascinating stuff.
00:47:33.449 --> 00:47:35.679
And they have such great guests as well.
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:37.360
Some real, real big names.
00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:40.719
I've seen people like that you wouldn't expect, like Ian Rankin.
00:47:41.034 --> 00:47:44.545
And, you know, there's such a broad range.
00:47:44.545 --> 00:47:48.514
There's always something you didn't know you needed to know about until you got there.
00:47:48.737 --> 00:47:48.867
I
00:47:49.188 --> 00:47:49.467
yeah.
00:47:49.467 --> 00:47:52.557
So we're really excited to be, to be taking part this year.
00:47:52.690 --> 00:47:53.460
Amazing.
00:47:53.550 --> 00:47:56.670
I know you're going to be tabling, are you going to be doing a talk?
00:47:56.670 --> 00:47:57.789
What are you going to be up to?
00:47:57.789 --> 00:47:58.373
Do
00:47:59.070 --> 00:48:00.621
we don't tend to have a table.
00:48:00.621 --> 00:48:08.221
What we do is we kind of tend to camp at self made heroes table and take advantage of their hospitality whenever we can, but.
00:48:08.670 --> 00:48:09.771
They're very good to us.
00:48:10.141 --> 00:48:15.641
We are going to be doing a talk this time, about collaboration and adaptation.
00:48:15.641 --> 00:48:19.170
I believe it's going to be called Collaborating with the Dead.
00:48:19.701 --> 00:48:22.422
So, just cashing in on some October spookiness.
00:48:22.606 --> 00:48:23.338
amazing.
00:48:25.427 --> 00:48:47.119
To end the podcast, it's nice to have a couple of things to think about, maybe reflections on how your books could be used in education or some reflection on your Experiences and you know what you would have liked in your time at school or any any thoughts Around the role that comics can play in education and
00:48:47.297 --> 00:49:21.086
I think part of it is this thing that we really feel passionate about is that there are lots of different sorts of readers in the world and I think the term reluctant reader has become a little bit of a sort of shame label and especially for educators that it's something that needs to be solved and that somehow reading for pleasure is in itself a moral good and it has to be a serious book for it to count and you know there's a really big bit weird, all of that kind of edifice that's around enjoying fiction.
00:49:21.536 --> 00:49:36.436
And I think that to encourage educators to cast the net very widely for what kind of, story enjoyments are available to everybody, is the best way to make sure that people can access.
00:49:36.976 --> 00:49:39.407
as wide a possible range of ideas.
00:49:39.836 --> 00:49:58.271
So there are people who have enjoyed the concepts and ideas in our books, which are quite, you know, they're political economy ideas and philosophical ideas, but have been able to access them who would not Have the reading capacity to have read the original.
00:49:58.552 --> 00:50:00.572
That's what we're in it for.
00:50:01.041 --> 00:50:22.481
And so to try and break down some of that, stuff about what's a proper book and what isn't, what, what children should be reading and at the same time to, and like when we said, why can't there be lots and lots of versions of a thing to adapt and to work on something that already exists is great if it's really good and you can.
00:50:22.503 --> 00:50:25.581
Represent it in a way that then it reaches more people.
00:50:26.362 --> 00:50:26.992
Why not?
00:50:27.302 --> 00:50:29.621
And that goes all the way down to early years.
00:50:29.672 --> 00:50:45.132
Like I just remembered that I accidentally said in a talk and I feel embarrassed about it sometimes that I described, Burglar Bill by Janet and Alan Alberg as crime and punishment for Key Stage One, but it's true.
00:50:46.226 --> 00:50:46.567
It's true.
00:50:47.581 --> 00:51:04.572
Yeah, and so, like, those things exist and they are, like, Burglar Bill engages with some really big moral and ethical ideas and it's told so beautifully and simply in narrative art in a way that people can access.
00:51:05.286 --> 00:51:09.916
You know, maybe Dostoevsky could have taken a leaf out of Janet and Alan Albergh's book.
00:51:09.916 --> 00:51:10.336
Yeah.
00:51:10.547 --> 00:51:34.856
I think as somebody who has, I mean, it's a really weird thing, you know, struggling to read but being able to write quite well, which always confused me because I can't possibly be dyslexic because I can write, but I just really like, when I try and read a book, all I can see is the pattern of the gaps between the words and then my brain just wanders off and I just can't concentrate.
00:51:34.856 --> 00:51:39.757
I find it very stressful and frustrating because there's a whole world out there.
00:51:40.697 --> 00:51:45.976
That other people can lose themselves in and I'd love that.
00:51:46.356 --> 00:51:47.097
I want that.
00:51:47.117 --> 00:51:52.206
and for me that's, you know, things like telly helps with that because it's so immersive.
00:51:52.547 --> 00:52:04.117
And what, what we try and do with our books is to make an immersive, an immersive environment for people who struggle to concentrate to really fall into.
00:52:04.146 --> 00:52:05.516
That's what I hope will happen.
00:52:05.516 --> 00:52:05.536
Um,
00:52:05.867 --> 00:52:09.197
And I just don't think it's that unusual to have a mind like Scarlett's.
00:52:09.496 --> 00:52:18.086
I think that there are lots of people who live that way, who were going around with this idea that everyone else can read, so I just need to be quiet and not make a fuss.
00:52:18.586 --> 00:52:26.117
And that what, what educators can do is to make as many different formats available as possible.
00:52:26.333 --> 00:52:28.362
Yeah, I think that's so true.
00:52:28.382 --> 00:52:37.949
And that's, yeah, really interesting and how I think just going back to your point around the different types of reading for pleasure and the different motivations and, it's a part of my job at National Literacy Trust.
00:52:37.949 --> 00:52:40.378
I do teacher training on reading for pleasure.
00:52:40.869 --> 00:52:47.010
And, one of the things we highlight is a study that was done in Australia about how, you know, people read for information and get enjoyment from that.
00:52:47.010 --> 00:52:57.480
People read for like, as a functional thing to improve the way that they're, I don't know, could be improving a skill that they need to gain, but it's, they read it for enjoyment and get enjoyment from that.
00:52:57.869 --> 00:53:01.139
what, from learning the skill through reading and all these different types.
00:53:01.170 --> 00:53:08.400
The immersive play is just, and the kind of immersion story is just one type of reading for pleasure out of many types of reading for pleasure.
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:20.844
And I think that's really an interesting perspective because I think it is definitely in recent years, it, the focus is on everyone should be reading for pleasure and it should be fiction you know, and within the it should be a certain type of book.
00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:21.360
yeah.
00:53:21.391 --> 00:53:24.311
And I think for people like me, it's not for want of trying.
00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:26.130
Like, I really would love to.
00:53:26.240 --> 00:53:29.380
I'd love to be somebody who can just lose themselves in a book.
00:53:29.510 --> 00:53:42.052
There's an interesting side of this that feeds into our process, which is Scarlet discovers or comes across or gets told about some obscure, depressing historical politics book.
00:53:42.833 --> 00:53:45.753
And she sends me, just read this, read this.
00:53:46.422 --> 00:53:49.373
I have read some really miserable stuff over the last few years.
00:53:50.543 --> 00:53:53.222
And the ones we make into books are the good ones.
00:53:53.336 --> 00:54:09.996
The other thing that I think is interesting educationally is the opportunity to, bring people into the idea of what it was like to live in the past and, and to try and, and get that sense across in a.
00:54:11.106 --> 00:54:12.726
In a gentle way.
00:54:12.746 --> 00:54:22.996
I'm very keen on history not being boring and, people being able to really feel what it's like to be a normal person in the past, not Henry VIII, you know, and,
00:54:23.322 --> 00:54:29.632
to humanize the people who are doing these things and to make their lives relatable.
00:54:30.251 --> 00:54:44.972
And I think No Surrender is interesting because you hear people arguing against votes for women, because the contemporary debates for and against, which is sort of a bit shocking, but that's what it was like.
00:54:44.972 --> 00:54:57.391
And you can relate to, you know, it has reflections in modern conversations about things like climate change and Brexit and so trying to really pull on the threads that make.
00:54:57.612 --> 00:55:01.961
History now as much as possible so that people can imagine.
00:55:02.422 --> 00:55:07.322
themselves in those shoes and imagine that those people are just people that it's not even that
00:55:07.416 --> 00:55:08.067
yeah.
00:55:08.666 --> 00:55:10.436
It really comes through to me.
00:55:10.436 --> 00:55:30.233
I love that, that sort of, the characters really did feel like, the people were real people and that although the world's changed, people haven't, and we still had frustrations and ambitions and, you know, you couldn't get into the feeling like someone that worked in a mill, you know, not happy, but just that was their life and they didn't know any better when actually that's not reality because humans aren't like that.
00:55:30.233 --> 00:55:33.673
Humans are looking across the road, humans are feeling tired, humans are, you
00:55:33.804 --> 00:55:41.590
absolutely, and this whole idea that, because there was a, you know, a lot of infant deaths that parents just got over it and carried on working in the mill and it
00:55:41.621 --> 00:55:43.771
same thing that you see in the news today, isn't it?
00:55:43.771 --> 00:55:52.110
You know, when you see, like, it's the same sort of approach to, you know, when there's migrant deaths and things, it's it's almost completely incomparable.
00:55:52.190 --> 00:55:52.447
sort of,
00:55:52.472 --> 00:55:53.911
Dehumanization, really.
00:55:54.052 --> 00:55:54.672
yeah, this
00:55:54.871 --> 00:55:55.251
Hmm.
00:55:55.641 --> 00:55:59.141
Yes, very much that at risk of being political.
00:55:59.141 --> 00:56:04.731
I think a good example of that is the reaction to the war in Ukraine and the reaction to the war in Gaza.
00:56:05.362 --> 00:56:05.942
Yeah,
00:56:06.101 --> 00:56:09.431
Yeah, Yeah, to, to compare and contrast
00:56:09.481 --> 00:56:18.052
How people respond to the human suffering on an individual level is very related to how much or how little people can imagine being in those shoes.
00:56:19.282 --> 00:56:20.532
yeah, yeah,
00:56:20.552 --> 00:56:20.981
yeah.
00:56:21.132 --> 00:56:21.592
agree.
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:36.088
and I think doing the sort of thing, doing comics or, I mean, things like Persep Maus and, you know, those books really bring you into somebody else's entire world so you can understand it.
00:56:36.777 --> 00:56:38.608
and those things are so valuable.
00:56:39.228 --> 00:56:43.708
And I think it's sort of important, you know, when you're making stuff like this.
00:56:43.708 --> 00:57:05.257
One of the reasons that we, the sort of criteria for the books that we've worked on it's really that they are an authentic voice, it's first person, so it's written by somebody who's had the lived experience of what's happening in the book, even though they're fiction, they're all loosely based on fact.
00:57:05.860 --> 00:57:09.219
and autobiographical in some, in some way or other.
00:57:09.730 --> 00:57:12.409
I mean Constance Ma wasn't working class,
00:57:12.570 --> 00:57:17.840
No, she was posh, but she was, she was marginalized because of her gender instead.
00:57:18.230 --> 00:57:26.239
So each time we've been raising the voice of a marginalized group, who's been trying to say, this is what it's like to live my life.
00:57:26.710 --> 00:57:28.800
And they've chosen fiction as the way to do it.
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.769
And the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist is.
00:57:32.474 --> 00:57:41.735
like rightly famous for being this first fictionalization of a working class life, but No Surrender should be just as famous, but it
00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:49.050
And this slavery really should be because this slavery is, is like on a, I think it's better than the
00:57:49.715 --> 00:57:51.994
I don't think I can wait for your version to come out.
00:57:51.994 --> 00:57:55.025
I think I'm going to need to read the, the original of the slavery.
00:57:55.025 --> 00:57:56.835
It's great, but it's out of print.
00:57:56.846 --> 00:57:58.496
You can, you can get it.
00:57:58.945 --> 00:58:04.746
I think Nottingham Trent University did an edition and I don't know if that's, Yeah.
00:58:04.755 --> 00:58:07.356
I don't know if it's widely available or
00:58:07.371 --> 00:58:15.416
called, there's a group called the Pendle Radicals who made a podcast, about this slavery, and that's how we discovered it.
00:58:15.985 --> 00:58:27.925
But because, although Ethel Kearney Holdsworth was really successful at the time, she later, lost her fortune, or I say lost, she spent her fortune on being a pacifist in World War I.
00:58:28.465 --> 00:58:37.204
She ran a literary pacifism magazine and poured all of her novel money into it and died in real obscurity.
00:58:37.284 --> 00:58:42.945
and the book itself is of all of her novels, the, the, the political one.
00:58:43.474 --> 00:58:47.735
And so it's not something you're going to be able to easily pick up in Waterstones.
00:58:48.105 --> 00:58:51.894
It is, the prose is really, really good.
00:58:54.362 --> 00:59:01.322
Our final question of the podcast, which, and you know, feel free, it could be a picture book, could be comic, could be anything.
00:59:01.362 --> 00:59:06.722
If we were to add one book to our to be read piles tomorrow, what would you recommend?
00:59:06.722 --> 00:59:07.623
You can have one each.
00:59:07.663 --> 00:59:08.313
I'll be generous.
00:59:08.721 --> 00:59:10.001
Scarlet, do you want to start us off?
00:59:10.001 --> 00:59:13.681
I'm going to say something really left field, which is typical of me.
00:59:14.161 --> 00:59:31.114
Um, there's a book, there's a book called Old MacDonald Had Some Flats, which was written, I think, in the late 60s, early 70s, and it was, it's actually written in New York, so the original is called Old MacDonald Had an Apartment Block, but I don't think it's as good.
00:59:31.114 --> 00:59:33.576
Um, and, um, I know.
00:59:33.936 --> 00:59:40.576
And it's basically, it's about the little people standing up against capitalist overlords.
00:59:40.806 --> 00:59:43.286
And I had it when I was a child and absolutely loved it.
00:59:43.295 --> 00:59:55.737
Didn't realize, you know, didn't understand that obviously there's more to it than the story But the story is, Old MacDonald is the caretaker of this block of flats, and the tenants are just hard work.
00:59:56.086 --> 01:00:07.206
And so, as the tenants start moving out, he replaces them with animals and vegetables, and starts growing carrots, and they're coming through the ceiling of the flat below, and stuff like that.
01:00:07.666 --> 01:00:17.976
And the,, the landlord comes along and tells him off, and tells him to stop it, and, you know, tries to chuck him out, but then realises that they could actually make quite a lot of money with a farm shop.
01:00:20.356 --> 01:00:35.126
It's, it's really, but the drawings are great and the whole sort of idea of doing something absurd but in normal surroundings, which is all, I love a kitchen sink thing, but that's got some absurdity to it.
01:00:35.137 --> 01:00:40.657
So yeah, that's a fun book for, for children, you know, children's book.
01:00:40.842 --> 01:00:41.612
that sounds brilliant.
01:00:42.422 --> 01:00:47.043
Sophie, what about you?
01:00:47.094 --> 01:00:50.153
If I was a high school.
01:00:51.048 --> 01:00:57.867
librarian or a high school person who is interested in, reading for pleasure and broadening things.
01:00:58.356 --> 01:01:05.271
I would recommend, a self made hero title by Rob Davis called The Motherless Oven.
01:01:05.572 --> 01:01:12.782
There are actually three books in it's a trilogy and they are off the wall.
01:01:12.851 --> 01:01:18.342
They, it's a alternate universe where it rains knives and it's about teenagers.
01:01:19.126 --> 01:01:23.416
Trying to survive in their universe.
01:01:23.806 --> 01:01:24.447
brilliant.
01:01:24.746 --> 01:01:26.606
The art is beautiful.
01:01:27.056 --> 01:01:35.856
The imagination is so wild and so simply expressed that you have no one, no trouble understanding the rules of this world.
01:01:35.856 --> 01:01:44.666
And they're not at all like our own world and all, but what I really, really like about it is that he gets really under the skin of the teenage experience.
01:01:45.286 --> 01:01:56.586
And so I think that if you were going to have some books to add to your graphic novel collection that you're hoping to entice readers in with, they would be a very good,
01:01:56.952 --> 01:01:59.371
So there, So it's the motherless oven.
01:02:00.177 --> 01:02:06.007
The Motherless Oven and then is it, is it The Can Opener's Daughter and then The Book of
01:02:06.217 --> 01:02:06.764
Yes.
01:02:06.764 --> 01:02:09.494
That, they sound amazing and exactly the sort of thing that I love.
01:02:09.494 --> 01:02:10.963
I love something that's a little bit
01:02:11.338 --> 01:02:11.579
Oh,
01:02:11.889 --> 01:02:12.239
uh,
01:02:12.409 --> 01:02:14.099
They're really, really, good.
01:02:14.329 --> 01:02:14.789
Yeah.
01:02:15.168 --> 01:02:19.119
And I know I've said something, but I'm not sure mine's even in print.
01:02:19.179 --> 01:02:20.889
So let me say something sensible.
01:02:20.889 --> 01:02:27.289
A creator who I really like is Guy Dalil, who's done quite a lot of stuff, of travelogue.
01:02:27.574 --> 01:02:28.713
Kind of stuff.
01:02:29.193 --> 01:02:37.601
Uh, his wife worked for Médecins Sans Frontières, so, so they were going all over the world and living in sort of war zones and places.
01:02:37.931 --> 01:02:58.429
And he's done these fantastic, graphic novels about the experience of being in North Korea and in Jerusalem and in, you know, sort of exploring, you know, these places and they're very lightly done but also really interesting and really give you a sense of what it's like to to be in those places.
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:09.804
And then he did a fantastic book called Hostage which is, based on the testimony of a man who was held hostage for A few years, I think, two or three years,
01:03:09.875 --> 01:03:19.625
I think if you're interested in comics craft and like the medium being used, well, they are really, really good examples of that.
01:03:19.659 --> 01:03:27.980
And hostage is really good for people who aren't big readers because there are very few words because it's just, it's a man in a room.
01:03:28.429 --> 01:03:29.190
Um, but.
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:42.159
But But the way that, the way that it has the sort of tension of the situation and, you know, and people speaking foreign languages that you don't understand, and it's just, it's really well done.
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:43.059
So I recommend
01:03:43.335 --> 01:03:44.715
That sounds absolutely brilliant.
01:03:44.735 --> 01:03:46.945
Well, that's a great bevy of recommendations.
01:03:46.954 --> 01:03:47.614
So thank you very much.
01:03:47.784 --> 01:03:49.005
And thank you for coming on the podcast.
01:03:49.005 --> 01:03:49.715
It's been amazing.
01:03:49.735 --> 01:03:51.344
The time's flown by and I've really loved it.
01:03:51.355 --> 01:03:52.114
So thank you.
01:03:52.454 --> 01:03:53.675
It's been lovely to meet you.
01:03:53.822 --> 01:03:54.822
Thank you for having us.
01:03:54.996 --> 01:03:55.436
you.
01:03:58.009 --> 01:04:03.018
The Ricard sisters that really enjoyed exploring the topic of adapting classically.
01:04:03.168 --> 01:04:03.648
Literature.
01:04:03.739 --> 01:04:04.248
Into graphic.
01:04:04.309 --> 01:04:04.818
Novel format.
01:04:05.028 --> 01:04:05.418
And all the benefits.
01:04:05.898 --> 01:04:06.349
And then really.
01:04:06.378 --> 01:04:08.568
Fascinating the way that partnership operates.
01:04:08.838 --> 01:04:14.248
I loved the idea of the ragged Trousered projects, funding, copies of the ragged Trousered philanthropist.
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:16.079
To go into schools and libraries.
01:04:16.108 --> 01:04:22.175
I'll put all the links to Sophie and Scarlet, social media and their website as I always do in the show notes.
01:04:22.175 --> 01:04:24.875
So if you want to access any information about that, please do.
01:04:24.875 --> 01:04:26.554
And I really recommend getting hold of.
01:04:26.855 --> 01:04:27.454
Their books.
01:04:27.454 --> 01:04:28.775
They're really great read.
01:04:28.844 --> 01:04:31.664
Genuinely really enjoyed accessing books.
01:04:31.664 --> 01:04:36.405
I otherwise wouldn't have read stories that I would not have been accessed at all if they went in that format.
01:04:36.644 --> 01:04:38.085
So that was really brilliant.
01:04:38.295 --> 01:04:40.454
And thank you for those excellent recommendations.
01:04:40.454 --> 01:04:49.907
I'm not going to give a recommendation this week because I did actually go out and get a copy of the motherless oven if the record sisters recommend a book to you, my goodness, you go out and get it.
01:04:50.117 --> 01:04:53.896
And I did, and it was absolutely brilliant and it just finished it really.
01:04:53.956 --> 01:04:54.916
Really blew me away.
01:04:55.367 --> 01:04:56.956
The bear, so right.
01:04:56.956 --> 01:04:58.967
The way that the world's created it's.
01:04:59.777 --> 01:05:00.407
There's so much.
01:05:00.407 --> 01:05:01.277
I don't understand.
01:05:01.306 --> 01:05:09.481
And yet I just accept it because of the way that the story is crafted a beautiful example of, how to use light and shade in the artwork as well.
01:05:09.512 --> 01:05:14.313
Just it's, it's all, black and white illustration, that there's such dynamics within that.
01:05:14.413 --> 01:05:15.612
It's a really beautiful.
01:05:15.682 --> 01:05:16.882
But to look at two.
01:05:16.913 --> 01:05:21.833
So I'm going to w recommend that book to you, and we've got something a little bit different.
01:05:21.833 --> 01:05:26.632
Normally in this section, since we've been sponsored very lucky to be sponsored by ALCS the podcast.
01:05:26.853 --> 01:05:32.112
I've been recommended some resources from their website, but did they actually got the opportunity to speak to?
01:05:32.123 --> 01:05:35.182
Barbara Hayes from ALCSs their CEO.
01:05:35.452 --> 01:05:38.213
You talked to me a little bit more about ALCSs work.
01:05:38.273 --> 01:05:44.782
I think I've, I've done my best to describe what they do and to promote their work, but it's always great to be able to speak to.
01:05:44.806 --> 01:05:47.896
Someone from an organization about what they do and why it's important.
01:05:48.106 --> 01:05:55.777
It really does link really well into what the podcast is about supporting in the work of, writers and the importance of literature and promoting that.
01:13:47.573 --> 01:13:56.972
Great little intro from Barbara that I loved hearing about her comics reading experience as a child brilliant to have, um, some comics interests that in her reading journey too.
01:13:57.193 --> 01:14:00.853
Thank you, Barbara, for doing a much better job of explaining what LLCs do.
01:14:01.182 --> 01:14:12.073
As I said, Bob, we'll be back next week and we'll be continuing our conversation and talking a little bit about the importance of copyright and plagiarism education and how teachers and librarians can play a part in that.
01:14:12.095 --> 01:14:20.195
And what that means in the world, in which AI is here to stay and very much part of our educational futures.
01:14:20.225 --> 01:14:23.286
So really interesting discussion on that too.
01:14:23.676 --> 01:14:25.206
Thanks very much for listening today.
01:14:25.265 --> 01:14:26.466
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
01:14:26.490 --> 01:14:27.932
I love the Ricard sisters.
01:14:28.023 --> 01:14:29.162
I'm sure you will have to.
01:14:29.403 --> 01:14:35.703
If you would like to support the podcast you can do so by re-tweeting sharing on your social media platforms.
01:14:35.912 --> 01:14:41.613
Letting your colleagues know about the podcast and also by leaving reviews, five stars, please.
01:14:41.882 --> 01:14:50.582
Oh on any platform that you listened to, that all helps people who have similar interests to you to find the content of the podcast, and grow our audience base.
01:14:50.613 --> 01:14:53.823
So thank you very much for all of the work that you do to support and share.
01:14:53.842 --> 01:14:57.222
the podcast on your platforms, that's it from me today.
01:14:57.273 --> 01:14:58.903
My name is Lucy Starbuck Braidley.
01:14:58.922 --> 01:15:00.632
I'm the host and producer of comic.
01:15:00.632 --> 01:15:00.932
Boom.
01:15:01.113 --> 01:15:01.863
Thanks for listening.
