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Hi, everybody.
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Welcome to the latest episode of Collectively Speaking.
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So this is a podcast series where we interview interesting people who very often are members of the LDN Collective, but also clients and collaborators.
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for those of you who don't know the Collective is a group of multidisciplinary experts working within the built environment who have particular areas of expertise.
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Yes, but understand the benefits of coming together and collaborating in a sort of bottom up way, as it were.
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the big focus for our members and why we've come together in the first place is to focus on the social impact and environmental impact of what we do.
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that is very much the sort of core values that bring us together.
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I'm delighted to have with us today Natasha Reed who is member of the LDN Collective that really focuses on issues around quality of life and social impact, her consultancy matters, Space Soul is really seen as a leader in this area.
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So I'm delighted to have her as a member of the LDN Collective and looking forward to hearing more about what you do.
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Natasha, could you tell us just a bit about yourself and matter space?
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So yeah, of course. Max So much space.
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So is it design and research consultancy?
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And we're focused on shaping places for health, wellbeing and social impact.
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And the name itself tells you a bit about the mission and why I started it, which is to make places that matter and spaces of self, because the environment really does matter.
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It matters to people's lives, to their health, to how we come together as communities and as you saying people are now becoming more and more aware of it.
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I think particularly since the pandemic, that's really changed for me when I started in this area.
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This was about ten years ago and what I was doing was sort of seen as quite fringe, perhaps quite nice.
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But in the last few years, particularly now, it's become really core to what people are talking about and also now what the industry is looking for in terms of pay shaping.
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So it can be everything from how places make people feel, whether that's in terms of physical or mental health, but also things a little bit less direct.
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So how people connect and social interaction between different groups and also things like how you can create a sense of belonging in place, which all of these things are quite hard to measure.
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But what I've been working on over the last ten years is really trying to find ways to bring that into the way that places are being shaped.
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So looking at that, really kind of the sort of nonphysical aspects, the more human experience aspects of places and we've see now there's there's more and more evidence about and research about that.
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So it's about bringing that research now into how these places are being made.
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Well, that's really, really interesting.
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We're quite keen to know a bit more about your background and how you got into this particular area.
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How did you first get into it and what got you more interested in the sort of human side of the built environment spaces?
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It's always been part of my interest.
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My background is architecture and urban design.
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So I took the very I space traditional way.
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So I studied architecture at Cambridge and then I worked for really great practices in London and everything was sort of as it should be, what I should be doing great projects, great colleagues, great directors.
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But I felt like there was always something else that I needed to follow and look at more deeply.
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And it was that that human impact of places.
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And I looked particularly at the emotional and social and psychological side.
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Yeah, it was about ten years ago that I decided to start working independently and unusually.
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Actually, my first commission was as an artist, a socially engaged artist, and it was a project of mine that had started out as part of my postgraduate studies and a concept called an embassy for refugees.
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And I'd come back to this idea a couple of years later down the line.
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I started doing exhibitions about it, and then I was commissioned to create a sort of concept embassy for refugees as the Centrepoint of Refugee Week on the South Bank for a festival called Celebrating Sanctuary.
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And the idea was that with this project is to create a space of sanctuary for people, but also to represent people that are very much marginalized from cities and to give a piece of prime sort of public space in central London to people that are often kind of at the edges of society.
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So that was quite a radical shift from what I'd been doing, had been doing was a big residential projects, award winning housing and public spaces to then do this really tiny, tiny project.
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But I'd worked with refugee children to do workshops.
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I'm kind of getting them to make secret dens and explore the idea of what sanctuary means to them.
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And then I translated that into a a quite sculptural sort of pavilion type space.
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And from that point, it sort of started a whole journey of thinking about how places impact people in a whole different range of ways.
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So that was the more humanitarian side.
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But then since then, I've also sort of active of environmental psychologists who go really deeply into how places affect your mind, how you feel behaved is to also neuroscientists who are looking at it from the point of view of your brain and how that works, even to sort of it can look at things like stress, but also your ability sort of cognitively, creativity also how people get attached to places or find their way around places that cannot be looked at in terms of your brain.
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so I found all this kind of research and work that's going on even feels like anthropology, how people come together.
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And it really struck me that, you know, there's so much here that's already being looked at, but the way that places are being shaped around us don't bring any of that in at all.
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Well, that's fascinating.
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And that's something that really interests me, too, is that sort of cross-disciplinary nature of what we do.
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But that isn't really represented properly in when we go about projects, essentially, because often there's a real focus on budgets and finance sources early on in projects.
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And for that reason, people think you only need the the absolutely essential people in the room.
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And very often to begin with, they might be people who are looking at the sort of economics or the planning policy side of things, but not the outcomes of what you're going to be doing early on.
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And I think that is changing and it's great that we're managing to sort of make that happen with some of the projects we're working on.
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but you can also make a very good argument for creating economic value if you do think about these things early on and I'm really interested that you're saying that you started off with this embassy for refugees.
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There's a sort of movement at the moment that I think is is starting to take shape that I think is is starting to take shape and it's that sort of intersection between health and urban planning, which I think is often overlooked, or the two sectors don't really talk to each other.
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But there is this idea that inclusive health needs to include people that are disenfranchized whether that sort of refugees or prisoners or homeless people.
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And it's if you focus on these more extreme situations and find solutions, very often they're more easily transferable to more mainstream projects.
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So I think that are absolutely applauded for, you know, having that light bulb moment and making that transition into an area that was, I suppose some would say quite a risky thing to do.
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So tell us a bit more about since you set up matter space.
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So I know you've been working on some really interesting projects where you creating frameworks for the quality of places so that this can be done in a bit more of a scientific way, if you like.
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And I know you've done that for some local authorities and we're now talking to work with developers about that.
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And, and more recently we led on the stakeholder engagement for the City of London, which was fantastic.
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So can you tell us a bit about that, place quality framework and projects that you've been doing that where you've been trying to put that into practice?
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Yeah.
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So the, the Place quality framework is essentially bringing together all the, the research and the projects I've been doing over the last ten years or so and looking at how people experience places and how to create those people focused outcomes through design.
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developed that before as a sort of methodology for design, but then I brought that into application for local government as the first step.
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So it's now part of a local authority's planning requirements in London.
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So it's the first in its kind really to now require developments to actually demonstrate that benefit for people's quality of life as part of planning permission requirements.
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it's sort of part design to part sort of planning practices and systems and assessments, but it sets out across three different dimensions how to make places that are basically good for people, right?
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And that's across health and wellbeing, community and belonging and then vibrant and inclusive places.
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And within that there's a whole set of criteria and design considerations to foresee to help either designers or decision makers understand the different impacts that the built environment has and put that into the design.
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And then that will be used as new benchmarks for success to then assess developments, and that is covering everything from masterplans external spaces, internal spaces all the way down to like details of say, corridor was.
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So it's really covering a pretty broad range of public space as well.
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because it's the first and it's kind of also trying to get that academically evaluated to see the impact on health and the way that that's been shaped is that it's to address health inequalities.
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So go back to the that side of, you know, the people that are the most disadvantaged.
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How can it help?
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The idea is that areas that have more deprivation or lack of open space, there'll be higher expectations on that new development deliverable quality of life.
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So there's a kind of system in there to actually make it proportionate to people's needs.
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that's really interesting.
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And I think the local authority you've been working with is Brant Council, which is good to hear because I live on the border of Westminster in Brant and you know, it's always good when somebody or an organization takes the initiative on these things, particularly in the public sector, where they're often quite risk averse and looking to others to have done something first.
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So what do you think it was about Brant that meant that it was the right conditions for them to think innovatively about these things?
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I think it generally the have been really forward thinking and progressive and the bar has like much of London, there's areas of deprivation and alongside affluence.
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But it was one of the most hardest hit in the pandemic.
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And so I think there is a, a recognition that some things needed to be looked at and changed.
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And I, I came along and I really just set out the evidence that is already out there in terms of health inequalities at work that people like Sir Michael Marmot has done about social determinants of health.
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So it's not really that new.
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It's things that been looked at in public health for quite a long time.
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But in terms of urban design and planning, it's it hasn't really reached the wider kind of industry.
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So I was just there essentially bringing that knowledge.
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Yeah.
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Do you think other local authorities will follow suit and watching what they're doing or I hate to say, see, I did a, a talk for Homes England.
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It was part of their summer learning session for local authorities on health and science and sharing this framework as a case study.
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And a thousand people signed up in say those sales and people yeah so so that and on the day I think about nearly 600 were on the call Wow well local authority so I think there's really big interest yeah and and a few across authorities have been in touch as well initially so I think it's something that can be shared and and spread and hopefully the approach kind of grows every time fantastic I know that within the LDA and Collective you work very closely with Lianne Hartley of MEND previously the founder of Considerate Urbanism.
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it's a fantastic partnership that I've seen in action when we worked on the City of London to help them develop their local plan, the 2040 plan.
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So can you just tell me a bit about that relationship and how you work together also a bit about what what you think in terms of the future and where where things are going and some things that you're up to at the moment that you are interested in?
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Yeah, so met Leon probably about a year and a half ago and she's been doing really amazing work in terms of social value.
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She also speaks a lot at conferences, so with similar themes to what I talk about.
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So we both talk about empathy in urban situations, about the importance of emotion and how people feel about care and compassion and those sorts of values.
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So even though my background is more design and Lianne is more social value and planning, we share that really kind of strong chorus of why we're doing what we believe in and say together we form this partnership to be able to really deliver on, particularly on what social value I think is the key thing in terms of what the industry is needed to think.
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Causation, value.
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Often it's it's done in a way where you sort of have these monetized metrics of if things that the project is doing, but it's not really addressing the needs of the actual people in the actual place and what was being created by the place.
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So together we're able to offer a sort of more holistic social value offering looking at both the wider project impacts, but also how that place is being shaped to create value human values, social value, cultural values, all these things.
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And I suppose works very much to your advantage that you have had architectural training because very often and from what I can see in the projects where they've been doing these things in a very progressive way, you work quite closely with design teams and actually help the sort of social impact objectives inform the design, which I know having worked for many years, an architectural practice that isn't always the case where, you know, the social impact aims and frameworks that have been well thought about and well considered actually influence the design right from the very outset in terms of, you know, public and private space and its impact on people's health and wellbeing.
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how important is that?
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And I suppose the second part of that question is if there's a developer listening, which we hope there is and I'm told there is what would you say to them to convince them that they should start thinking differently and thinking about these things earlier on in projects?
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for me, what's always sort of seemed like the obvious thing is that if you're making places that people enjoy being in with, spending time in or want to come back to that or say has a really impactful kind of value commercially because you're creating places that are more desirable, that are more attractive, and that know, people want to spend time in.
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so I think that's one of the key things.
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I think there's not this kind of social value separate issue is actually creating a benefit and value kind of holistically across different dimensions.
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it's funny you mention the valleys.
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This is actually speaking to, to one got quite a major one actually about bringing in these sorts of new approaches into quite a major development because I think they see that that long term value as well.
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So if you're creating that these spaces that more vibrant and attractive and draw people in, there's so much that can be brought from that.
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So I think it's all looking very positive.
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is happening a bit faster than I was expecting actually.
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Well that's good to hear.
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Yeah, it's, I think Yeah, yeah.
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So we're looking, looking very good after sort of a ten year bit of uphill sort of struggle in a way.
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Say so.
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I suppose one thing I'd like to know is what is it that first sparked your interest in this and is it something you think about often when you're walking around the streets and always have or I mean, yes, it's something that's kind of always been there.
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even before I studied architecture, I'd, I'd walk around and sort of draw things and wonder why things are the way they are in a space.
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As part of my studies, I was I looked at things like, social segregation in cities and I spent time out in South America.
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And so looking at slums and in the favelas in Brazil.
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And as part of my postgraduate studies, I spent some time doing concepts for slum settlement in Delhi so that that kind of humanistic or humanitarian aspect was there, right.
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From, you know, my first interest.
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And then I suppose when I got into practice, there's that bit of a disjunction where you're kind of doing projects, but it's not really the things that you were looking at when you were a student.
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And yeah, and I can say much more we can be doing.
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I suppose you are sort of able to kind of think much more broadly when, before you get into practice about the rest of the world and what the big issues are and how you can really could make a difference in countries, you know, that are in developing countries like, you know, Brazil and India and so on.
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do you think you'll be getting into projects internationally in the future?
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I mean, I would very much like to through the Alden Collective and What are your thoughts about how to start to have an impact overseas?
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I think that would be a pretty good thing to do.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think, see, the my home is here in London and I love kind of making it better here, but there's so much that can be done across the world in terms of, everywhere is, urbanizing.
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we now have so many more millions of peoples living in cities.
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We need to find ways to make that work.
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Well, and thinking about all the different challenges that the future is bringing in that are actually here with us right now.
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However, how are we going to deal with a lot of things, whether it's climate, social inequalities, kind of mental health crises, all these different things need looking at, yes, and yeah, there's this huge populations that are going to need better saving by the built environment.
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I'm quite interested just to know how you get brought into projects.
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So, for example, is it something that you might be appointed to work alongside or by an architect, or is it always directly by a developer or a project manager?
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And also, you know, how do people need to think differently about the process of a project?
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programs and budgets in order to make sure that your contribution is properly factored in.
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So it can work both ways in terms of how I get brought in.
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So it can be via developer or say via the architects or design team, in a way that doesn't matter so much, but it's more, bringing in this sort of specialist advice right at the beginning of the project to be able to sort of look at what the opportunities are from the very start, from the brief with the initial vision to identify actually how can we embed health and wellbeing and social impact and inclusivity right from the first principles.
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what I'm offering is staying different series of reviews and, and audits and sets of principles that can then be embedded into what the design team are doing and doing that in a way that is not disruptive, but to establish that these are some values and principles and strategies that need to inform.
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Yes, how that get shaped.
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And then would you then go back at certain points in the project in terms of, you know, after planning, but, you know, pre-construction post construction or even when a project is, you know, occupied, is that something you would you know that you would look to do?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So post planning, I could have series of design reviews being a sort of critical friend to to then see how the principles are being played out and the details, so all the way through to kind of occupation and, and the things that can support that overall experience and with things like, installations or that even right down to these small kind of details.
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Yeah.
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recently on one of our most compelling projects, Simpson, we had a, a really good session, which was led by Jaz Balla, and he's working alongside Hannah Smart from Edge, and they are the urban designers that are planning and designing a town center for this new settlement, which is an absolutely fascinating exercise because, you know, it's not very often you get to think about starting from scratch with the new town center.
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I mean, this is essentially a new town on what is greenfield land.
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It's very different to rethinking or evolving an existing urban center, which is often a more often what we what we do.
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But I imagine that you would contribute to a project like a masterplan like that is how to think about the more qualitative aspects of design.
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You know, it's not about sort of how we design necessarily the streets and the types of buildings and or is it I mean, tell me, how do you focus on, you know, urban centers and what what what would be the difference between a project you do work on and a project that you don't like?
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I says with a new settlement, a new masterplan like that is always really important to create a really strong sense of place and to give it that kind of central heart, a place that really defines what it is and that people are drawn to places where different types of people can mix different generations or different ages.
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so what my work primarily would be would be about how to, create that narrative sense of place.
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I would say through the design and the streets and the squares and the, the way that buildings are kind of set out or shaped layer all those things together to really create that kind of heart space within it.
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And then there's obviously many, many other things that you can do.
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But I think that also is this good starting point.
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Yeah. What is this place? Yes.
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And I suppose you need to be sort of proactively creating places that do encourage connection between people and interaction, because often, you know, if you've got an employment area here and a retail area there in a residential area there, the the danger, especially now that people are working from home, living longer, you know, with a lot more elderly people in town centers, that people do become isolated or disconnected.
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Is that something that you try and sort of planned to to to prevent the social isolation? And like?
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There's a lot of my work has been around tackling loneliness and because that's actually been shown to be very bad for your house, which surprises people.
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But it's been there's reports to say this is bad for 15 cigarets a day in terms of the sort of impacts from the stress and how that that creates different conditions on you go to is is really serious Well, thank you so much, Natasha.
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That was absolutely brilliant and it is always a pleasure working with you.
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And I think it's even more interesting to hear about how you got into this particular area of expertise in terms of social impact and healthy places.
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And I feel very sort of optimistic hearing all of that about the future because I think the more people we have, like you who are working in the built environment and actually shaping the places and spaces that, as Winston Churchill once said, then shape us is incredibly important.
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And so power to your elbow, as they say.
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And, and thank you so much for sharing that with us today.
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What are.
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Hi, everybody.
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Welcome to the latest episode of Collectively Speaking.
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So this is a podcast series where we interview interesting people who very often are members of the LDN Collective, but also clients and collaborators.
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for those of you who don't know the Collective is a group of multidisciplinary experts working within the built environment who have particular areas of expertise.
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Yes, but understand the benefits of coming together and collaborating in a sort of bottom up way, as it were.
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the big focus for our members and why we've come together in the first place is to focus on the social impact and environmental impact of what we do.
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that is very much the sort of core values that bring us together.
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I'm delighted to have with us today Natasha Reed who is member of the LDN Collective that really focuses on issues around quality of life and social impact, her consultancy matters, Space Soul is really seen as a leader in this area.
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So I'm delighted to have her as a member of the LDN Collective and looking forward to hearing more about what you do.
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Natasha, could you tell us just a bit about yourself and matter space?
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So yeah, of course. Max So much space.
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So is it design and research consultancy?
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And we're focused on shaping places for health, wellbeing and social impact.
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And the name itself tells you a bit about the mission and why I started it, which is to make places that matter and spaces of self, because the environment really does matter.
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It matters to people's lives, to their health, to how we come together as communities and as you saying people are now becoming more and more aware of it.
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I think particularly since the pandemic, that's really changed for me when I started in this area.
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This was about ten years ago and what I was doing was sort of seen as quite fringe, perhaps quite nice.
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But in the last few years, particularly now, it's become really core to what people are talking about and also now what the industry is looking for in terms of pay shaping.
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So it can be everything from how places make people feel, whether that's in terms of physical or mental health, but also things a little bit less direct.
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So how people connect and social interaction between different groups and also things like how you can create a sense of belonging in place, which all of these things are quite hard to measure.
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But what I've been working on over the last ten years is really trying to find ways to bring that into the way that places are being shaped.
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So looking at that, really kind of the sort of nonphysical aspects, the more human experience aspects of places and we've see now there's there's more and more evidence about and research about that.
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So it's about bringing that research now into how these places are being made.
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Well, that's really, really interesting.
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We're quite keen to know a bit more about your background and how you got into this particular area.
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How did you first get into it and what got you more interested in the sort of human side of the built environment spaces?
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It's always been part of my interest.
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My background is architecture and urban design.
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So I took the very I space traditional way.
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So I studied architecture at Cambridge and then I worked for really great practices in London and everything was sort of as it should be, what I should be doing great projects, great colleagues, great directors.
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But I felt like there was always something else that I needed to follow and look at more deeply.
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And it was that that human impact of places.
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And I looked particularly at the emotional and social and psychological side.
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Yeah, it was about ten years ago that I decided to start working independently and unusually.
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Actually, my first commission was as an artist, a socially engaged artist, and it was a project of mine that had started out as part of my postgraduate studies and a concept called an embassy for refugees.
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And I'd come back to this idea a couple of years later down the line.
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I started doing exhibitions about it, and then I was commissioned to create a sort of concept embassy for refugees as the Centrepoint of Refugee Week on the South Bank for a festival called Celebrating Sanctuary.
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And the idea was that with this project is to create a space of sanctuary for people, but also to represent people that are very much marginalized from cities and to give a piece of prime sort of public space in central London to people that are often kind of at the edges of society.
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So that was quite a radical shift from what I'd been doing, had been doing was a big residential projects, award winning housing and public spaces to then do this really tiny, tiny project.
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But I'd worked with refugee children to do workshops.
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I'm kind of getting them to make secret dens and explore the idea of what sanctuary means to them.
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And then I translated that into a a quite sculptural sort of pavilion type space.
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And from that point, it sort of started a whole journey of thinking about how places impact people in a whole different range of ways.
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So that was the more humanitarian side.
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But then since then, I've also sort of active of environmental psychologists who go really deeply into how places affect your mind, how you feel behaved is to also neuroscientists who are looking at it from the point of view of your brain and how that works, even to sort of it can look at things like stress, but also your ability sort of cognitively, creativity also how people get attached to places or find their way around places that cannot be looked at in terms of your brain.
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so I found all this kind of research and work that's going on even feels like anthropology, how people come together.
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And it really struck me that, you know, there's so much here that's already being looked at, but the way that places are being shaped around us don't bring any of that in at all.
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Well, that's fascinating.
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And that's something that really interests me, too, is that sort of cross-disciplinary nature of what we do.
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But that isn't really represented properly in when we go about projects, essentially, because often there's a real focus on budgets and finance sources early on in projects.
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And for that reason, people think you only need the the absolutely essential people in the room.
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And very often to begin with, they might be people who are looking at the sort of economics or the planning policy side of things, but not the outcomes of what you're going to be doing early on.
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And I think that is changing and it's great that we're managing to sort of make that happen with some of the projects we're working on.
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but you can also make a very good argument for creating economic value if you do think about these things early on and I'm really interested that you're saying that you started off with this embassy for refugees.
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There's a sort of movement at the moment that I think is is starting to take shape that I think is is starting to take shape and it's that sort of intersection between health and urban planning, which I think is often overlooked, or the two sectors don't really talk to each other.
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But there is this idea that inclusive health needs to include people that are disenfranchized whether that sort of refugees or prisoners or homeless people.
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And it's if you focus on these more extreme situations and find solutions, very often they're more easily transferable to more mainstream projects.
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So I think that are absolutely applauded for, you know, having that light bulb moment and making that transition into an area that was, I suppose some would say quite a risky thing to do.
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So tell us a bit more about since you set up matter space.
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So I know you've been working on some really interesting projects where you creating frameworks for the quality of places so that this can be done in a bit more of a scientific way, if you like.
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And I know you've done that for some local authorities and we're now talking to work with developers about that.
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And, and more recently we led on the stakeholder engagement for the City of London, which was fantastic.
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So can you tell us a bit about that, place quality framework and projects that you've been doing that where you've been trying to put that into practice?
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Yeah.
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So the, the Place quality framework is essentially bringing together all the, the research and the projects I've been doing over the last ten years or so and looking at how people experience places and how to create those people focused outcomes through design.
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developed that before as a sort of methodology for design, but then I brought that into application for local government as the first step.
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So it's now part of a local authority's planning requirements in London.
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So it's the first in its kind really to now require developments to actually demonstrate that benefit for people's quality of life as part of planning permission requirements.
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it's sort of part design to part sort of planning practices and systems and assessments, but it sets out across three different dimensions how to make places that are basically good for people, right?
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And that's across health and wellbeing, community and belonging and then vibrant and inclusive places.
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And within that there's a whole set of criteria and design considerations to foresee to help either designers or decision makers understand the different impacts that the built environment has and put that into the design.
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And then that will be used as new benchmarks for success to then assess developments, and that is covering everything from masterplans external spaces, internal spaces all the way down to like details of say, corridor was.
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So it's really covering a pretty broad range of public space as well.
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because it's the first and it's kind of also trying to get that academically evaluated to see the impact on health and the way that that's been shaped is that it's to address health inequalities.
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So go back to the that side of, you know, the people that are the most disadvantaged.
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How can it help?
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The idea is that areas that have more deprivation or lack of open space, there'll be higher expectations on that new development deliverable quality of life.
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So there's a kind of system in there to actually make it proportionate to people's needs.
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that's really interesting.
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And I think the local authority you've been working with is Brant Council, which is good to hear because I live on the border of Westminster in Brant and you know, it's always good when somebody or an organization takes the initiative on these things, particularly in the public sector, where they're often quite risk averse and looking to others to have done something first.
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So what do you think it was about Brant that meant that it was the right conditions for them to think innovatively about these things?
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I think it generally the have been really forward thinking and progressive and the bar has like much of London, there's areas of deprivation and alongside affluence.
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But it was one of the most hardest hit in the pandemic.
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And so I think there is a, a recognition that some things needed to be looked at and changed.
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And I, I came along and I really just set out the evidence that is already out there in terms of health inequalities at work that people like Sir Michael Marmot has done about social determinants of health.
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So it's not really that new.
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It's things that been looked at in public health for quite a long time.
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But in terms of urban design and planning, it's it hasn't really reached the wider kind of industry.
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So I was just there essentially bringing that knowledge.
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Yeah.
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Do you think other local authorities will follow suit and watching what they're doing or I hate to say, see, I did a, a talk for Homes England.
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It was part of their summer learning session for local authorities on health and science and sharing this framework as a case study.
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And a thousand people signed up in say those sales and people yeah so so that and on the day I think about nearly 600 were on the call Wow well local authority so I think there's really big interest yeah and and a few across authorities have been in touch as well initially so I think it's something that can be shared and and spread and hopefully the approach kind of grows every time fantastic I know that within the LDA and Collective you work very closely with Lianne Hartley of MEND previously the founder of Considerate Urbanism.
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it's a fantastic partnership that I've seen in action when we worked on the City of London to help them develop their local plan, the 2040 plan.
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So can you just tell me a bit about that relationship and how you work together also a bit about what what you think in terms of the future and where where things are going and some things that you're up to at the moment that you are interested in?
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Yeah, so met Leon probably about a year and a half ago and she's been doing really amazing work in terms of social value.
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She also speaks a lot at conferences, so with similar themes to what I talk about.
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So we both talk about empathy in urban situations, about the importance of emotion and how people feel about care and compassion and those sorts of values.
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So even though my background is more design and Lianne is more social value and planning, we share that really kind of strong chorus of why we're doing what we believe in and say together we form this partnership to be able to really deliver on, particularly on what social value I think is the key thing in terms of what the industry is needed to think.
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Causation, value.
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Often it's it's done in a way where you sort of have these monetized metrics of if things that the project is doing, but it's not really addressing the needs of the actual people in the actual place and what was being created by the place.
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So together we're able to offer a sort of more holistic social value offering looking at both the wider project impacts, but also how that place is being shaped to create value human values, social value, cultural values, all these things.
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And I suppose works very much to your advantage that you have had architectural training because very often and from what I can see in the projects where they've been doing these things in a very progressive way, you work quite closely with design teams and actually help the sort of social impact objectives inform the design, which I know having worked for many years, an architectural practice that isn't always the case where, you know, the social impact aims and frameworks that have been well thought about and well considered actually influence the design right from the very outset in terms of, you know, public and private space and its impact on people's health and wellbeing.
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how important is that?
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And I suppose the second part of that question is if there's a developer listening, which we hope there is and I'm told there is what would you say to them to convince them that they should start thinking differently and thinking about these things earlier on in projects?
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for me, what's always sort of seemed like the obvious thing is that if you're making places that people enjoy being in with, spending time in or want to come back to that or say has a really impactful kind of value commercially because you're creating places that are more desirable, that are more attractive, and that know, people want to spend time in.
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so I think that's one of the key things.
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I think there's not this kind of social value separate issue is actually creating a benefit and value kind of holistically across different dimensions.
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it's funny you mention the valleys.
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This is actually speaking to, to one got quite a major one actually about bringing in these sorts of new approaches into quite a major development because I think they see that that long term value as well.
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So if you're creating that these spaces that more vibrant and attractive and draw people in, there's so much that can be brought from that.
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So I think it's all looking very positive.
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is happening a bit faster than I was expecting actually.
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Well that's good to hear.
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Yeah, it's, I think Yeah, yeah.
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So we're looking, looking very good after sort of a ten year bit of uphill sort of struggle in a way.
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Say so.
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I suppose one thing I'd like to know is what is it that first sparked your interest in this and is it something you think about often when you're walking around the streets and always have or I mean, yes, it's something that's kind of always been there.
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even before I studied architecture, I'd, I'd walk around and sort of draw things and wonder why things are the way they are in a space.
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As part of my studies, I was I looked at things like, social segregation in cities and I spent time out in South America.
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And so looking at slums and in the favelas in Brazil.
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And as part of my postgraduate studies, I spent some time doing concepts for slum settlement in Delhi so that that kind of humanistic or humanitarian aspect was there, right.
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From, you know, my first interest.
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And then I suppose when I got into practice, there's that bit of a disjunction where you're kind of doing projects, but it's not really the things that you were looking at when you were a student.
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And yeah, and I can say much more we can be doing.
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I suppose you are sort of able to kind of think much more broadly when, before you get into practice about the rest of the world and what the big issues are and how you can really could make a difference in countries, you know, that are in developing countries like, you know, Brazil and India and so on.
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do you think you'll be getting into projects internationally in the future?
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I mean, I would very much like to through the Alden Collective and What are your thoughts about how to start to have an impact overseas?
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I think that would be a pretty good thing to do.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think, see, the my home is here in London and I love kind of making it better here, but there's so much that can be done across the world in terms of, everywhere is, urbanizing.
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we now have so many more millions of peoples living in cities.
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We need to find ways to make that work.
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Well, and thinking about all the different challenges that the future is bringing in that are actually here with us right now.
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However, how are we going to deal with a lot of things, whether it's climate, social inequalities, kind of mental health crises, all these different things need looking at, yes, and yeah, there's this huge populations that are going to need better saving by the built environment.
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I'm quite interested just to know how you get brought into projects.
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So, for example, is it something that you might be appointed to work alongside or by an architect, or is it always directly by a developer or a project manager?
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And also, you know, how do people need to think differently about the process of a project?
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programs and budgets in order to make sure that your contribution is properly factored in.
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So it can work both ways in terms of how I get brought in.
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So it can be via developer or say via the architects or design team, in a way that doesn't matter so much, but it's more, bringing in this sort of specialist advice right at the beginning of the project to be able to sort of look at what the opportunities are from the very start, from the brief with the initial vision to identify actually how can we embed health and wellbeing and social impact and inclusivity right from the first principles.
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what I'm offering is staying different series of reviews and, and audits and sets of principles that can then be embedded into what the design team are doing and doing that in a way that is not disruptive, but to establish that these are some values and principles and strategies that need to inform.
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Yes, how that get shaped.
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And then would you then go back at certain points in the project in terms of, you know, after planning, but, you know, pre-construction post construction or even when a project is, you know, occupied, is that something you would you know that you would look to do?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So post planning, I could have series of design reviews being a sort of critical friend to to then see how the principles are being played out and the details, so all the way through to kind of occupation and, and the things that can support that overall experience and with things like, installations or that even right down to these small kind of details.
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Yeah.
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recently on one of our most compelling projects, Simpson, we had a, a really good session, which was led by Jaz Balla, and he's working alongside Hannah Smart from Edge, and they are the urban designers that are planning and designing a town center for this new settlement, which is an absolutely fascinating exercise because, you know, it's not very often you get to think about starting from scratch with the new town center.
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I mean, this is essentially a new town on what is greenfield land.
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It's very different to rethinking or evolving an existing urban center, which is often a more often what we what we do.
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But I imagine that you would contribute to a project like a masterplan like that is how to think about the more qualitative aspects of design.
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You know, it's not about sort of how we design necessarily the streets and the types of buildings and or is it I mean, tell me, how do you focus on, you know, urban centers and what what what would be the difference between a project you do work on and a project that you don't like?
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I says with a new settlement, a new masterplan like that is always really important to create a really strong sense of place and to give it that kind of central heart, a place that really defines what it is and that people are drawn to places where different types of people can mix different generations or different ages.
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so what my work primarily would be would be about how to, create that narrative sense of place.
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I would say through the design and the streets and the squares and the, the way that buildings are kind of set out or shaped layer all those things together to really create that kind of heart space within it.
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And then there's obviously many, many other things that you can do.
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But I think that also is this good starting point.
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Yeah. What is this place? Yes.
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And I suppose you need to be sort of proactively creating places that do encourage connection between people and interaction, because often, you know, if you've got an employment area here and a retail area there in a residential area there, the the danger, especially now that people are working from home, living longer, you know, with a lot more elderly people in town centers, that people do become isolated or disconnected.
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Is that something that you try and sort of planned to to to prevent the social isolation? And like?
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There's a lot of my work has been around tackling loneliness and because that's actually been shown to be very bad for your house, which surprises people.
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But it's been there's reports to say this is bad for 15 cigarets a day in terms of the sort of impacts from the stress and how that that creates different conditions on you go to is is really serious Well, thank you so much, Natasha.
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That was absolutely brilliant and it is always a pleasure working with you.
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And I think it's even more interesting to hear about how you got into this particular area of expertise in terms of social impact and healthy places.
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And I feel very sort of optimistic hearing all of that about the future because I think the more people we have, like you who are working in the built environment and actually shaping the places and spaces that, as Winston Churchill once said, then shape us is incredibly important.
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And so power to your elbow, as they say.
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And, and thank you so much for sharing that with us today.
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What are.
