speaker-0: Well, welcome to episode five of Collab, and this week our special guest is someone who needs no introduction, but I'll introduce you anyway, Kylie Maxwell. Thanks.
speaker-1: Hi. I'm ⁓ actually quite nervous to be here, but I'm so privileged to do this with you.
speaker-0: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and no nerves needed because we're just talking about you today. Okay. Yeah. And you know all about you. ⁓ so for the people who don't know all about you, which I'm sure there's not many, tell us a bit about yourself and your background in the industry.
speaker-1: Do you all about me? Sure. So I think like most people, ⁓ real estate was not my chosen career. I just sort of fell into it. When I finished school, I went over to the UK for 12 months for a gap year. And when I came back, mum and dad said, You need to get a job. And ⁓ after having a great time at school, university was not on my agenda, both academically or the want. ⁓ so went into a traineeship with a boutique agency in Manica. ⁓ Capital Real Estate run by Mike and Die and Coombe. I did not know that. Yeah. And so that was one of those twelve month traineeships where you did ⁓ business skills, admin skills. Three months into that traineeship, Mike and Die bought a rent roll acquisition Intagranal. And ⁓ me all of eighteen and a half was passed a hundred and thirty managements three months into my real estate career, ⁓ to manage this acquisition in Tagrenal. So
speaker-0: Standard PM on boarding process.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah, it's absolutely standard. So sink or swim mentality. Yeah. loved working for Dye and Mike, ⁓ but also felt and I suppose what PMs feel now, also felt the pressure of property management. So early mornings, long nights, a lot of stress, probably came down to a lot of, as you said, ⁓ lack of onboarding or training. Yeah. ⁓ and that's how I fell into real estate. From there. ⁓ I actually went overseas again for 12 months when I was 21. Came back and actually worked for QB Insurance for I was an EA for one of the executives there. ⁓ didn't really like that. ⁓ surprisingly, felt that real estate was in my bones. And ⁓ Jason, my husband, was working at the new startup of Maxwell Co. with Cole Maxwell in Queenbean, and their receptionist Debbie was going on maternity labor. So they said, Would you like to come in and do reception? And I said, Yeah, okay. So went into their office, did reception and the rest is history. So from there started reception, started to build a rent role, walked in with 50 managements. ⁓ so it was then their B D, did their rent role, did their wages, did their admin. They were we were like a team of five. We were very small. Yeah. Built it over the years. ⁓ by the age of twenty three, had a twenty five percent ownership share in that business. ⁓ by about the age of 28, we had a 50% ownership in that business. And then Cole retired. We bought him out 100% in 2013. ⁓ after about 20 years in the industry, like most, I was sort of burnt out. Uh-huh. I was doing a lot of Jason was always our ⁓ front of house face of the business. Yeah. And I was the little one keeping the call going behind the scenes. And so ⁓ you know.
speaker-0: I think you're underselling your role, but sure.
speaker-1: ⁓ self-taught in leadership and management and business. Yeah. ⁓ had a team, built a rent role. By the time yeah, Cole retired, 2013 I wanted out. So an off chance with LJ Hooker in Queen Bien. ⁓ we then merged businesses. So Maxwell and Co. was no longer. We were then LJ Hooker. It was my opportunity to leave the industry. So I did. ⁓ look, it it didn't go well for For the office, it didn't go great for Jason, ⁓ because there was a lot of stress involved because he obviously new teams merging, developing a new business, ⁓ developing new cultures, two completely different running systems, both business and processes. ⁓ so within the first year I think they'd lost 13 staff members. ⁓ there was a high churn of staff. I was still a director as a ⁓ silently in the background. Yeah. So I obviously still had an interest in that business. So April 2014 went back into that business and restarted the property management department ⁓ from my processes. So retrained a team, ⁓ offloaded team members that I no longer wanted, onboarded some new ones, retrained the ones that were there. ⁓ luckily for me, my original team was still there. So ⁓ although one did actually leave ⁓ when I came back, and then she actually came back ⁓ probably 18 months later, and success story around her trained her into being our department head. And she's actually now the GM of a business, ⁓ real estate business that had actually purchased our business. So 2014 to 2021, hard slog. Yeah, doing really well, had an amazing business, close to a thousand managements. And then COVID hit and at that same time opportunity knocked and ⁓ Gav Van Ziel, who has white rhino, said, I'd like to buy your rent roll. And we weren't in we had no ⁓ desire to sell. Yeah. But as you would know, when you've got a large rent roll in Canberra, finding a buyer to buy a large acquisition is not an easy feat. And we thought five years down the track we'd probably want to get out anyway. Sure. So it was just an opportunity that we thought, yeah, let's take it. And we did. 2021, we sold our rent role. Our team stayed with White Rhino. ⁓ our team is still with White Rhino, actually. So they've ⁓ maintained all the team and they're running a great business out there at Gugong. and yeah, for me, I then stepped out of ⁓ day-to-day management and went more into training and leadership. and I think Probably. One of the hardest things was detaching my identity from being a business owner and that life I'd had for twenty-eight years into now being out on my own. Huge shift.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's a big shift, isn't it? How did you manage that from a mindset perspective?
speaker-1: it wasn't easy. I took a little while to find my feet. ⁓ because I originally was going to stay on at White Rhino and with COVID and lockdown, it wasn't viable for them to keep me on. So ⁓ I was always passionate about training and mentoring people in the industry. So I started off ⁓ my own training company for a little bit. And then I was approached by Fiona Blaney at Real Plus. And so I did some work with her for a while. ⁓ and I really loved that. But the travel started to get to me. I was doing a lot of travel ⁓ through New South Wales and through ⁓ Sydney. Yeah. So the travel started to get to me. So I wanted to bring those things back more in-house. And surprisingly, it's really hard to work for someone else when you've worked for yourself for so long. And it was a huge challenge. Yeah. And ⁓ You know, Fee saw the potential in me and I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity and I'm grateful to have worked after ⁓ you know, under someone who I've admired for so long. ⁓ but ⁓ I think she said it, which was funny. She said I was very rigid in my in my ⁓ views and in my dealings. And I suppose that was how I used to run the business. Like it was, you know, I I know you have this quote in your head as well, you know, the standards you walk past, the standards you accept. And so I did have very high standards. And so she changed my mentality about around that a little bit, to be honest. I well, I didn't drop my standards, but I dropped my views on on certain things. I was more open minded to things. And I think that changed me in a big way in respects of how I looked at things, ⁓ what I thought was right and wrong. ⁓ how I valued other people's opinions and ⁓ allowing them to have the floor rather than just my way was the right way. ⁓ so that changed.
speaker-0: Did everything crash and burn when you let that go?
speaker-1: it didn't crash and burn, but it was a bit of an identity crisis. So I had to relearn new things and and do and you know be open to new processes and open to the world of tech and you know and onboard new things. And because I know that, you know, there's a lot of us in the industry of my generation who are very old school and I knew that old school was not going to get me to where I needed to be in the future. And so you have to then you have to be open to adapting.
speaker-0: Absolutely. But I think there's a place for the old school processes and systems because they're tried and tested rather. So it's fine and I think the blend and the balance of new world and old world coming together to get the best output.
speaker-1: A hundred percent. hundred percent and I and I think that's you know I I because most of my career's been property management, I'll relay that back to property management and obviously I'm in sales now, but I think ⁓ you can never devalue the power of customer service. And I I feel that that's the balance with the new and the old. Like making sure old fashioned customer service stays where it needs to stay. But we can still use new technology to help us get to the future. Couldn't agree more. And with that I mean like, you know, a handwritten card, the power of a handwritten card, the power of a phone call. Yeah. Like the power of a of a face to face meeting rather than, you know, on Zoom or rather than an email. Like that old fashioned stuff still has a huge place. Absolutely.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I can't I I can't imagine that ever won't be a place for that. Yeah. ⁓ and you've always done that so well. Yeah. Well no, I mean I I've seen that working together over the years as well. But I wanna I wanna rewind a bit 'cause obviously you've kind of told the front end of your story, which is I I learned a lot. ⁓ which is so interesting, but it's like you've kind of fallen back into real estate three times by the sounds of things. What kept you coming back?
speaker-1: Thank you. ⁓ do you know what? I innately I'm a service person. Yeah. So, you know, people talk about ⁓ love language, mind's service and and and and gifts of service, you know. so I one of the things I loved the most was dealing with people. And later in my career where I learned more about myself as a leader, I actually loved developing people and to actually be able to watch people grow. And push them out of their comfort zones. And then them actually coming back to you and saying, I wouldn't have been where I was without you is actually a really nice feeling. It's great. And I, you know, over the years I look at ⁓ I think I was talking to you last week about a a girl that used to work for me. ⁓ pre me even knowing anything about leadership, you know, she she says to me To this day, like she's had her own business now probably about ten years. She's ⁓ a one-man band, does property management and does it very well and does sales. And she actually says to me, I wouldn't be the property manager I am without you. You taught me so much. But I didn't think at the time I taught her anything. But it's funny, you know, monkey see, monkey do. Yeah. And it you know, the standards that you keep and the work ethic you keep, you know, even down to having a clean desk and a clean office and how you treat people and how you Talk to people on the phone, there's always someone watching and there's always someone listening and soaking that up. Yeah. And I think that is really important for everybody to remember.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. And I think looking looking at your career and looking at the way you carry yourself, I'd say one of your real strengths as a leader and as a business owner ⁓ is consistency over intensity. Yes. You do the little things right all the time. Yeah. Whereas you see a lot of people come into the industry and they, you know, blaze of glory, they do something great for a couple of weeks and then it kinda fizzes out. Yes. And I think you've fr my observation you've always really played a long game in a really positive, consistent way. Yeah. Would that be right?
speaker-1: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think ⁓ and yeah, definitely I always say I used to always say to my girls, let's just do the A, B, and C. Yeah. Because, you know, ultimately that's what the client wants and ultimately that's all we need to provide. And then let's sprinkle the fairy dust to well them. And that is always the way I've worked. So if you know meeting expectations and setting expectations is really important when you're dealing with clients. So if you say you're gonna do something, you've gotta do it. Yeah. But don't ever promise too much that you can't meet that expectation. So for example, our the girls that used to have on a PM team, it was never expected of them and actually I never wanted them to be working after hours. So we used to set that expectation with our clients, but we also used to have a process in place to cover after hours. Yeah. So if someone needed us after hours, there was a process. It didn't mean the girls had to jump on and do something. Because and I used to train in this that if you're a a PM that continuously answers emails after hours or phone calls after hours and your clients think that's wonderful, what happens the weekend you stop? Because the weekend you stop is the weekend you've dropped the standard that that client expects. Absolutely. So accept the expectation in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I always worked on that mentality. One of the other biggest lessons I've had in my career is, and it was Peter Gilchrist that said this to me, sort of name-dropping here, but don't mean to. But he actually I was talking about leadership and the stress and the burnout of doing everything for everybody and taking on all the hard stuff. And he actually said to me, That's a really selfish attitude. And I went, ⁓ He goes, You're actually being really selfish. And I was like a bit taken aback. And then he explained it and he said, By you Doing everything for everybody and taking all the hard stuff on, you're not allowing your team to grow and develop. Cause you're not, you're giving them a false sense of reality. So you're actually allowing them to do all the good stuff, but you're not building res resilience or allowing them to learn from their mistakes. And that changed my whole ethos of how I worked as a leader from there on. So that meant like if my girls were having a tough time, I was there to support them. But I wanted them to come up with the answer and the solution first, no matter how hard it was. For sure. And we would guide that through. And I was always had an open door policy. So my door was always open. I was always available. And I always used to say to my team, I don't care if you make a mistake. But if you make one, let's use it as a platform to learn and a platform to change processes. Yeah. And we used to do that as a group. And that's how the team then became, I think, so resilient and so strong and so adverse at dealing with issues because we identified them, we learned from them. Where a lot of, I think, and I shouldn't generalize, but I feel sometimes in property management, if a property manager's made a mistake and they don't have the support, you can guarantee they build up stress and two months down the track they've resigned. Yeah. And then the problem's
speaker-0: And then the problems come out. Yeah. And I think to in create an environment where it's safe to make mistakes. We all make mistakes, right? Absolutely. We're all human. Still today. Yeah. Every day. But to ⁓ create that environment for your people is so powerful because I think being being in a safe space is such an important part of coming to work every day. And yeah. So often I think you and I've talked about this before, you hear these horror stories of PMs who ⁓ get, you know, unceremoniously marched out of the office when they've decided to do something different or they've decided to make a change. And I think when we create a culture of safety and a culture of ⁓ empowering people, one, they're less likely to hide mistakes. Two, they're going to grow and become more resilient. But three, I think it comes that that pivot in people's career when they do decide they're ready for a change. How we as leaders manage that. How how did you find that when people left? I know you had great retention, but how did you
speaker-1: Yes. So I think one of the things was being really transparent. Any industry has churn with employees. Sure. And I think all your clients and your team want to know is what's the way forward. Yeah. So okay, ⁓ you know, Kate's left. Who's gonna be looking after me now? Who's my point of contact? Or for the team, if you haven't you know, if you haven't filled that spot. the the first thing they think about is what is the extra stress gonna be on me. Yeah. So you need to have that plan in place to go, okay, this is the short term plan. We're all gonna pitch in and do this together. but I think from a client point of view, I think it's really important both owners or landlords and tenants, they need to know what's going on. Cause it's very common, especially in property management and even in sales to a to a to a point of you know, they just get a new name at the bottom of an email. And they're like, I've had twelve different property managers this year. So I always manage that that letter and notification always came from me. Yeah. It always had what was the next step on it. It always had the plan. And it always had on the on the letter, if there's something that you're waiting on an answer from or there's something you've been requesting and it's been overlooked, please bring it to my attention so we can deal with it. Yeah. And that That saved us from losing managements, it saved us from losing clients, it saved us from losing team members. And you know, it was short term pain for long term gain. Like I just used to get in the trenches with the team and we would sort it out. And same with holiday leave. Like, you know, if a team member's going on holidays, let their clients know. Yeah. They're gonna be away, but we've got it covered. This is the process. And I with holiday leave used to allocate everyone in the team a day to look after.
speaker-0: Amazing.
speaker-1: Okay. When a team member was away. Yeah. So anything that came into that inbox in that day, that was your responsibility to check it. That's a deal with it. How'd that work for the team? Amazing. Because they only had to deal with one day. Yeah. So it was just it was just one day of extra pressure on them. But that's all they had to deal with.
speaker-0: Great way to manage it. Yeah. Yeah. And from a leadership perspective, and I I know this is so common in PM, ⁓ and I know that you're happy to do it, but that balance of constantly getting sucked back into being on the tools and then you're back into leadership on the tools when when you've got those kind of changes or holidays and so on, how did you manage that? Because as a team grows, you've got more cover that's needed. Yeah. How did you manage that?
speaker-1: I think for me it wasn't necessarily during the day to day. It was more about ⁓ checking in with each team member and seeing where they were at capacity wise and what they may need of help with. ⁓ I think as you get more experienced in property management, like it was easy for me to jump onto a team member's inbox and deal with a heap of stuff that was really quick that could be done. So the inbox didn't look as crowded. Yeah. And then it was about setting up their day and helping them with that. And letting them know that they could come to me if they needed anything. So it wasn't about me jumping in and actually doing the frontline work in the end. Like don't get me wrong, I used to, but in the end it wasn't. It was more around supporting them and being there in the trenches. And I think it's really important too to look at the mood and the vibe ⁓ within your department to go, okay, well, you know, Kate looks stressed. Just using Kate as a name. We don't have a Kate. Kate looks stressed. ⁓ you know, let's have a check in with Kate and see where she's at. And let's see what we can help her with. And then just I think, you know, talking to the team at the end of each day or each morning to say, you know, we've done amazing today. ⁓ we've got a few more hurdles to jump. Let's do it together as a team. Yeah. And I think that was really important. And knowing that I was there all the time.
speaker-0: I love that mentality.
speaker-1: I know you listen I I listened to the podcast that you did with ⁓ with Alex ⁓ the last session. Yeah. And she'd mentioned me stepping into her her business. And I ⁓ I suppose one of my most recent challenges is I had a a a personal challenge in life and you know, I think you've got to have the mentality of you're either you're rocking in the corner with a bottle of wine or you're getting into it. And I got into it and went into the Black Shaw's office. And ⁓ Alex was a great support to me as with that team and was there for two years and grew to love that team. Alex and I are very different. We're very similar, but very different in how we work. and ⁓ it I wanted to get Alex to let go a little bit. So, and it look, it takes having someone that you can trust in your office to be able to do with that as well. And she ⁓ which I'm very privileged to have done, she put 100% of her trust in me. And we ⁓ got her to step back and I sort of started getting the team to work in the way that I would get my team to Prevy's team to work. And it worked amazingly. And it also meant that it freed up some time for Alex, but it also meant that ⁓ she still had a lot of contact with her clients because they knew that she was there. Yeah. And the team were just growing and they were doing an amazing job. And it just came back because they knew They had the support of Alex and they had the support of me. Yeah. And we we just collaborated on everything and it just worked.
speaker-0: So what a power team. Yeah. I mean, also I think that period ⁓ r really helped ⁓ Alex's business with succession planning as well. Yes. And I think sometimes, you know, Alex is exceptional, absolutely exceptional at what she does. But even just having a s different perspective can completely shift how a business operates or elevate how a business operates. And I think the fact, you know, I loved watching that period of time you guys are working. Yeah, you just it just looked great. Like culturally it looked great and
speaker-1: Yeah, we had fun.
speaker-0: ⁓ I'd love to from your experience over the years, how have you built I mean, you've talked about a lot of great initiatives you've done operationally with the team, but how have you built such strong cultures over the years?
speaker-1: ⁓ do you know, culture for me is not ⁓ fancy events or dinners or anything. Culture for me is ⁓ everyday consistency. So one of the one of the ⁓ absolute non negotiables in the businesses when we had them and even when I was at Alex's was you have to say good morning and you have to say goodbye. Yeah. 'Cause the amount of people that will walk into an office and get absolutely nothing. Like that's not a nice feeling. No. Like you walk in and nobody talks to you. It's not a nice feeling. So it was a non-negotiable and I think as a leader, you need to set that tone. Yeah. So I know a lot of leaders could come in and they can just walk and sit in their office, shut the door and that's it, nobody sees for them. So for me it was very much about walking in, hi team, how you going? Usually I was the first one there. And even when I was the first one there, I would come out of my office and say good morning to the girls or good morning to the guys, you know. What's on the agenda today, need any help with anything? And even goodbye. If we were if someone was leaving at 3 30 or 4 30, goodbye. ⁓ birthdays were really important. ⁓ and just and and special milestones in people's lives because you spend so much of your time at work, you need to know those things. Great. And you need to be on top of them. Like someone's going on leave or, you know, someone's having a, you know, their their sister's having a baby or their child's graduating or you know, they're they're gonna become a grandparent. Like those things are really important to celebrate, like the life outside work. Because I feel over the years I've learned the majority of the stress that comes into the office is not necessarily work stress. It's life stress. Yeah. And so you've gotta you've got to have empathy about to listen without getting too involved. and rightly or wrongly, I I don't know. Jason and I did not socialize a lot with our team outside of work. Yeah. But we had a really respectful relationship with them and we cared. Yeah. And I think that's the biggest thing.
speaker-0: Yeah. I love that you say like little things like saying good morning and good goodbye when you leave the office. I I work with businesses around the country. I've experienced the same with leaders who don't do that. Yep. And I think it's it's really palpable when you walk into a space, the vibe. And every time I've walked into offices that you've been in, it's always felt like a really positive vibe. Yeah. ⁓ and I think that's testament not just to your leadership, but that consistency of
speaker-1: Well, and I think how the office feels as well, like have respect in your office, you know, and have respect for each other as well. Like don't leave your dirty dishes in the sink. You know, don't have yes crap everywhere. Yeah. Like, you know, have it as a nice environment to work in. Yeah. We used to have a daily gratitude board in our office and we used to have memes around. And, you know, and I want people to have, you know, photos of their family at their desk. I want them to have plants, you know. I don't want them to overtake everything, but I want them to have it because that's their environment, that's their space. And I want them to feel ⁓ good about coming to work. Yeah. You know, having some ownership and some pride in where they work every day I think's really important.
speaker-0: couldn't agree more. And and what they carry into the office, you can imagine, is similar to their home life, right? So if they're well organised, they're structured, they're they're tidy, they're focused at at home, that comes through to work and vice versa. Yes. And so we I think as leaders we have a responsibility to try to help people be better people.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. And I look, I think ⁓ COVID, when COVID hit, I mean, we were obviously a bit, I think, a bit more fortunate in in Queen Been and and Canberra, but definitely in Queen Been, we were still able to work in our office with the door closed and with with social distancing. But it was also a nice, I think a nice escape for our team at the time to come in and still be able to have some normality in life. I bet. Like it it was nice for them to be able to come in and have that normality and I just you know, I think ⁓ no matter what stresses are going on at home and everybody has them, yeah. ⁓ you should be able to come in the office and feel a sense of well, this is a new place. This is somewhere I can just be me and just do what I need to do.
speaker-0: I love that. You touched on earlier about going through a difficult time personally and and still wanting to show up for the team and for Alex. Yeah. ⁓ I mean a lot of people have challenges in their lives at different times. What kind of advice would you give to people to kind of keep showing up every day? 'Cause that was particularly hard for you and you just were amazing.
speaker-1: I think ⁓ look, I think you obviously gotta have a strong mindset around that. And I think what you feed your mind will actually ⁓ come out into the outside world. So I personally I looked after myself through exercise, ⁓ through what I ate, ⁓ through what I was feeding my mind, so positive things, ⁓ and I had a good support network around me as well. And I just I think you When you face something that's a challenge in life, I think you've got to have that mentality of, ⁓ this is not gonna beat me. Yeah. I'm better than this and I'm gonna keep moving forward. And it wasn't something that I needed to bring to the rest of the team. ⁓ the team knew. Sure. Alex knew, the office knew, and they were super supportive of me, but it's not something we talked about every day. We just got on and did it. Like they were a great distraction for me. Yeah, good. ⁓ and to feel That support and love around me was, you know, w was was tenfold. It helped me to no end. And I think sometimes you just have to block out the noise. Yeah. ⁓ because, you know, those that know know, they know what what went on. And there was a lot of noise around it and there was a lot of gossip around it. And I think you just need to hold your head high and you just gotta be true to yourself and just keep moving forward. So
speaker-0: So ⁓ that's a probably a really good segue into values. Yes. ⁓ you're a very values driven person. What would you say your values are?
speaker-1: think look ⁓ connection over commerce so it's to me it's always about the connection before of the business so how you connect with people. integrity is a huge value. Yeah. Honesty. Yeah. ⁓ authenticity. So just being your authentic self. Yeah. ⁓ you know that whole your vibe attracts your tribe, think's really true. ⁓ and yeah not compromising on your values either. So you know and and Doing right even when nobody's watching. Yeah. I think that's a huge that's a huge thing. ⁓ I'm not one that gets involved with drama. Yeah. I I step away from that. ⁓ definitely a very supportive person and someone that will will listen, but I I don't want to get involved with the drama. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, and that's probably put you in good stead throughout your career, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think ⁓ you know, I just you know, I know there was a question there about legacy and I think for me the legacy is you know, she helped, she listened, she was there. ⁓ and she did it without agenda. And ⁓ I think that's what I would like to be remembered for. That's amazing. That you know, I like collaboration's a huge thing for me. I don't I don't see anybody as competition. ⁓ I think we all work stronger together, no matter what office we're in. Yeah. Or or who we work for. And ⁓ you and I both know we've we've got some amazing friends throughout this industry. Yeah, so great. And amazing friends that you can pick up the phone and talk to and go, hey, this is going on. What do you think? Yeah. You know, and I think that's the power of our industry. If if you allow it. Yeah. I know there's people that don't allow it, but I think if you are open to collaboration and you see your industry peers as you know, a strength rather than competition, we'll all go a long way.
speaker-0: I agree. I mean I'm I'm incredibly grateful for the friendships I've got in the industry. I think we're so lucky.
speaker-1: Yeah, around the world too.
speaker-0: Isn't it? Yeah. When you think about it, the people we've met over the years and the connections. It's pretty remarkable, isn't it? Yeah.
speaker-1: I do ⁓ a little bit of business coaching still now for a couple of small businesses and sometimes they just need someone to talk to and bounce some ideas off. Yeah. And just to see it in a different light. Yeah. ⁓ for it to all be okay. Absolutely. And I think that's a really important thing.
speaker-0: And often we know the answer, don't we? But just hearing it from someone else that you trust really helps. Makes you feel
speaker-1: The whole imposter syndrome. Yeah. No, I'm not good at this. I can't do this. Yeah. Me when I came here today, like, yeah, I look really doing it. So it's yeah, I yeah, I've there's definitely a lot of people in the industry I look up to. Yeah. ⁓ and I think that's the thing too. Like, you know, there's no competition. There's just people that'll walk beside you. Yeah. Yeah. And you learn from a hundred percent we're.
speaker-0: Aren't we? ⁓ I'm jumping around a little bit, sorry. That's okay. But earlier mentioned ⁓ you know, having the people in the b in the businesses that you've worked in, ⁓ know their role, been really well trained, have the right processes and systems, and then sprinkle the fairy dust. Yes. I love the the idea of that kind of ⁓ you know, unexpected things. It don't need to be massive. You touched on things like handwritten cards and so on. But over your career, can you think about times? Maybe, maybe even in sales might be more ⁓ easier to reflect on given it's more recent. But the fairy dust, wha tell me some examples.
speaker-1: Wow, there's so many. you know, I I think even just a phone call if you remember something or you've spoken to a client about something in the past, like, you know, they may have been going on a holiday or they may have been having a grandchild, if you put that somewhere in your notes the next time you're ringing them, yeah, you can actually say, ⁓ you know, how's little Johnny going? And they're like, ⁓ so they feel they don't feel like a number in your business. They actually feel like you're building a personal connection. you know, obviously, you know, I I suppose with I'm trying to think with with sales, there is a lot of things in sales that you do where you go above and beyond to to try and keep a deal together.
speaker-0: But I I imagine SARS is a bit different. You've got different budget. You know, like you look at like the Ritz carton ⁓ story where the team there could spend I think it was two thousand dollars to delight a customer, a guest by doing something they didn't expect. I mean, imagine if we did that in PM, we'd go broke.
speaker-1: Yes. w yeah, a hundred percent. And so I don't think it has to be expensive or PM either. you know, i it might be, you know, someone's lost a parent. And so a bunch of flowers from, you know, the PM team to say we're thinking of you. Yeah. It would be an unexpected. Absolutely. Because and you know, what, fifty bucks? Yeah. It's not it's it's those little things. Yeah. and I think it's really important as a leader that you You trust your team, but you're available to your clients. And they know you're there in the background. And so for me that meant you know, a as we scaled and we had a larger rent role and I wasn't managing their properties, it meant ⁓ end of month statements coming from me with a little wrap. That's fine. So so, you know, I I didn't mean I necessarily had to do the end of month, but the statements came from my email address. And so the other thing that used to do too is if there was any issues, they'd come back to me and I could get the team onto them. So they weren't just under the carpet, but they knew I was I was there. That's such a little percent. Because then they go, ⁓ well, you know, she's a business owner and this has come from her. So that's a great thing. And it keeps that connection. What is it? Like birthday cards was another thing. ⁓ you know, handwritten Christmas cards from the team. Like it's time consuming, but if you start it out far enough, it gets done. Yeah. yeah, I just there's lots of different little things, I suppose.
speaker-0: And it's and it's I guess relevant to the to the person that you're doing it for, right? Knowing them enough.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, you know, like there was all you know, I I suppose I go back to PM all the time because I have spent most of my career in PM. ⁓ you know, the routine inspection video phone call at the end. Yeah. You know, a lot of owners don't expect that. No. But you send that to them, say I'm at your property, scan it, looks amazing. Yeah. They don't expect that. Yeah. So it's not in your agreement to do that. No. But you've done it. And the The fairy dust moments are moments that you want people to talk about. Yes. So when they're at dinner with friends, ⁓ they're going, ⁓ no, my agent's amazing. They did this. Yes. Yeah. And they're and that's how you build connection and trust. And that's where your referral business comes from.
speaker-0: The moment of truth. Yeah. And in PM world that's so easy because there's so many reasons to be talking to them.
speaker-1: Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. But it also comes down to ⁓ your team as well. Yes. So I think, you know, it's not always about the clients outside your office. It's also about the clients within your office, which are your team. And, you know, that as I said, that could be a birthday cake. It could be I understand it's harder with bigger businesses, but it doesn't have to be. I agree. Like it could be a birthday cake. It could be a card signed by everybody. ⁓ you know, it it could be, you know Congratulations for something. Yeah. It it it's caring about your team as well. Yeah. you know, it it just just the little things I think make a make a huge difference.
speaker-0: Do. They're the memorable ones, aren't they? Yeah. ⁓ your career, obviously you're still going, going strong. Yeah. Feeling it in sales back working with Jason. But if you looked back over the journey, how many years has it been?
speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ so coming into my thirty fifth year. Golly gosh. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Would you change anything?
speaker-1: I think my like myself now would have told my younger self certain things. Yeah. ⁓ you know, don't sweat the small stuff. you know, if it doesn't work, turn it off and switch it back on again. You know, and every day's a new day. Yeah. So there would be things, but I don't think I'd necessarily change anything because I think in anybody's career, everybody starts as a beginner. Yeah. And so you progress through your career and you learn new things. And I suppose with me being in sales, even though I can talk to people and I can do the service, there's things now that I'm learning in sales that that, you know, have pushed me out of my comfort zone. But they're working. Yeah, great. And it and it is going great. do I miss property management? Yeah. I don't know if I miss it that much. ⁓ but I, you know
speaker-0: Do you wanna come back? I've got a job.
speaker-1: And ⁓ but I think that comes back to that was where I comfortably sat. Yes, yes. And sat for, you know, for thirty years. Of course. ⁓ and so sales is a new challenge for me. Yeah. ⁓ but it still allows me to connect with people and provide a service, which is what I'm all about. And maybe I do that too much with some people, ⁓ to a fault, but I don't think I'd change it. Yeah. I think I still I think people want that and they deserve that. I agree.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ with with though obviously working in teams for a very long time and leading people, how has the shift been from now becoming a team?
speaker-1: I miss it so much. I actually I'm miss leading a team. obviously I I work from home a lot and so I don't go into the office a lot and that's on me, I could. Sure. but I also feel ⁓ sales is I wouldn't say insular, but it's it it's still not something that I we need to do in a team. Definitely, you know, people help each other and that's great. We we were able just to go on on holidays not long ago and we had two team members look after some stuff for us on the ground here, which was amazing. And I think but I do miss I miss growing people. I miss ⁓ leading a team and I miss watching the growth and people coming out of their shell to do that. So I don't really have the opportunity to do that right now. I suppose I've got to look at myself in the mirror 'cause I'm growing myself in sales now. Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: ⁓ but it's yeah, I do miss I miss being in that team environment. Yeah. And and leading a team, definitely.
speaker-0: Well if you ever change your mind and ⁓ want to be back in PM world, we should talk. Cody here first.
speaker-1: I know Hannah. Yeah, it's ⁓ I'm quite happy at sales at the moment. Amazing. Sales has been fun. And as I said, it's it's been a new challenge. Yeah. And a good challenge. Yeah. So ⁓ yeah. And I love, you know, I just absolutely love watching other people in the industry that I've worked with and I've grown up with throughout my career.
speaker-0: Yeah, so when you're doing it. Keep growing, right?
speaker-1: And just seeing their success and how well they are doing. Like I absolutely love that. Like, you know like, you know, I just look at Heidi with Little Bird lately. ⁓ killing it. You know, absolutely kill it. And love it. Love watching that. Love watching her team. ⁓ you know, Alex obviously with Black Shores, they've done an amazing job as well. And and I know the hard work that they all put in. And I just ⁓ I love watching, you know, fellow PM leaders absolutely killing it like that. Yeah, it's great. Yeah.
speaker-0: Cool.
speaker-1: 'Cause we we all grew up in this industry together. So yeah, it's great.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's pretty special. ⁓ any any last comments that you want to share? ⁓
speaker-1: no, I don't think so. I think just ⁓ you know, I think really people just need to remember that every day's a new day to start fresh. ⁓ you can't feel from an empty cup, you need to look after yourself first. I think it's a big one for me. And yeah, just you know, collaboration over competition always. Yeah. Yeah. Well No, it wasn't that bad. There you go.
speaker-0: Well said. Well, thank you. Was it that? Funny that. I really appreciate you being on the show. Thank you. Thank you for your time.
speaker-1: Cute.
speaker-1: Hi. I'm ⁓ actually quite nervous to be here, but I'm so privileged to do this with you.
speaker-0: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and no nerves needed because we're just talking about you today. Okay. Yeah. And you know all about you. ⁓ so for the people who don't know all about you, which I'm sure there's not many, tell us a bit about yourself and your background in the industry.
speaker-1: Do you all about me? Sure. So I think like most people, ⁓ real estate was not my chosen career. I just sort of fell into it. When I finished school, I went over to the UK for 12 months for a gap year. And when I came back, mum and dad said, You need to get a job. And ⁓ after having a great time at school, university was not on my agenda, both academically or the want. ⁓ so went into a traineeship with a boutique agency in Manica. ⁓ Capital Real Estate run by Mike and Die and Coombe. I did not know that. Yeah. And so that was one of those twelve month traineeships where you did ⁓ business skills, admin skills. Three months into that traineeship, Mike and Die bought a rent roll acquisition Intagranal. And ⁓ me all of eighteen and a half was passed a hundred and thirty managements three months into my real estate career, ⁓ to manage this acquisition in Tagrenal. So
speaker-0: Standard PM on boarding process.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah, it's absolutely standard. So sink or swim mentality. Yeah. loved working for Dye and Mike, ⁓ but also felt and I suppose what PMs feel now, also felt the pressure of property management. So early mornings, long nights, a lot of stress, probably came down to a lot of, as you said, ⁓ lack of onboarding or training. Yeah. ⁓ and that's how I fell into real estate. From there. ⁓ I actually went overseas again for 12 months when I was 21. Came back and actually worked for QB Insurance for I was an EA for one of the executives there. ⁓ didn't really like that. ⁓ surprisingly, felt that real estate was in my bones. And ⁓ Jason, my husband, was working at the new startup of Maxwell Co. with Cole Maxwell in Queenbean, and their receptionist Debbie was going on maternity labor. So they said, Would you like to come in and do reception? And I said, Yeah, okay. So went into their office, did reception and the rest is history. So from there started reception, started to build a rent role, walked in with 50 managements. ⁓ so it was then their B D, did their rent role, did their wages, did their admin. They were we were like a team of five. We were very small. Yeah. Built it over the years. ⁓ by the age of twenty three, had a twenty five percent ownership share in that business. ⁓ by about the age of 28, we had a 50% ownership in that business. And then Cole retired. We bought him out 100% in 2013. ⁓ after about 20 years in the industry, like most, I was sort of burnt out. Uh-huh. I was doing a lot of Jason was always our ⁓ front of house face of the business. Yeah. And I was the little one keeping the call going behind the scenes. And so ⁓ you know.
speaker-0: I think you're underselling your role, but sure.
speaker-1: ⁓ self-taught in leadership and management and business. Yeah. ⁓ had a team, built a rent role. By the time yeah, Cole retired, 2013 I wanted out. So an off chance with LJ Hooker in Queen Bien. ⁓ we then merged businesses. So Maxwell and Co. was no longer. We were then LJ Hooker. It was my opportunity to leave the industry. So I did. ⁓ look, it it didn't go well for For the office, it didn't go great for Jason, ⁓ because there was a lot of stress involved because he obviously new teams merging, developing a new business, ⁓ developing new cultures, two completely different running systems, both business and processes. ⁓ so within the first year I think they'd lost 13 staff members. ⁓ there was a high churn of staff. I was still a director as a ⁓ silently in the background. Yeah. So I obviously still had an interest in that business. So April 2014 went back into that business and restarted the property management department ⁓ from my processes. So retrained a team, ⁓ offloaded team members that I no longer wanted, onboarded some new ones, retrained the ones that were there. ⁓ luckily for me, my original team was still there. So ⁓ although one did actually leave ⁓ when I came back, and then she actually came back ⁓ probably 18 months later, and success story around her trained her into being our department head. And she's actually now the GM of a business, ⁓ real estate business that had actually purchased our business. So 2014 to 2021, hard slog. Yeah, doing really well, had an amazing business, close to a thousand managements. And then COVID hit and at that same time opportunity knocked and ⁓ Gav Van Ziel, who has white rhino, said, I'd like to buy your rent roll. And we weren't in we had no ⁓ desire to sell. Yeah. But as you would know, when you've got a large rent roll in Canberra, finding a buyer to buy a large acquisition is not an easy feat. And we thought five years down the track we'd probably want to get out anyway. Sure. So it was just an opportunity that we thought, yeah, let's take it. And we did. 2021, we sold our rent role. Our team stayed with White Rhino. ⁓ our team is still with White Rhino, actually. So they've ⁓ maintained all the team and they're running a great business out there at Gugong. and yeah, for me, I then stepped out of ⁓ day-to-day management and went more into training and leadership. and I think Probably. One of the hardest things was detaching my identity from being a business owner and that life I'd had for twenty-eight years into now being out on my own. Huge shift.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's a big shift, isn't it? How did you manage that from a mindset perspective?
speaker-1: it wasn't easy. I took a little while to find my feet. ⁓ because I originally was going to stay on at White Rhino and with COVID and lockdown, it wasn't viable for them to keep me on. So ⁓ I was always passionate about training and mentoring people in the industry. So I started off ⁓ my own training company for a little bit. And then I was approached by Fiona Blaney at Real Plus. And so I did some work with her for a while. ⁓ and I really loved that. But the travel started to get to me. I was doing a lot of travel ⁓ through New South Wales and through ⁓ Sydney. Yeah. So the travel started to get to me. So I wanted to bring those things back more in-house. And surprisingly, it's really hard to work for someone else when you've worked for yourself for so long. And it was a huge challenge. Yeah. And ⁓ You know, Fee saw the potential in me and I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity and I'm grateful to have worked after ⁓ you know, under someone who I've admired for so long. ⁓ but ⁓ I think she said it, which was funny. She said I was very rigid in my in my ⁓ views and in my dealings. And I suppose that was how I used to run the business. Like it was, you know, I I know you have this quote in your head as well, you know, the standards you walk past, the standards you accept. And so I did have very high standards. And so she changed my mentality about around that a little bit, to be honest. I well, I didn't drop my standards, but I dropped my views on on certain things. I was more open minded to things. And I think that changed me in a big way in respects of how I looked at things, ⁓ what I thought was right and wrong. ⁓ how I valued other people's opinions and ⁓ allowing them to have the floor rather than just my way was the right way. ⁓ so that changed.
speaker-0: Did everything crash and burn when you let that go?
speaker-1: it didn't crash and burn, but it was a bit of an identity crisis. So I had to relearn new things and and do and you know be open to new processes and open to the world of tech and you know and onboard new things. And because I know that, you know, there's a lot of us in the industry of my generation who are very old school and I knew that old school was not going to get me to where I needed to be in the future. And so you have to then you have to be open to adapting.
speaker-0: Absolutely. But I think there's a place for the old school processes and systems because they're tried and tested rather. So it's fine and I think the blend and the balance of new world and old world coming together to get the best output.
speaker-1: A hundred percent. hundred percent and I and I think that's you know I I because most of my career's been property management, I'll relay that back to property management and obviously I'm in sales now, but I think ⁓ you can never devalue the power of customer service. And I I feel that that's the balance with the new and the old. Like making sure old fashioned customer service stays where it needs to stay. But we can still use new technology to help us get to the future. Couldn't agree more. And with that I mean like, you know, a handwritten card, the power of a handwritten card, the power of a phone call. Yeah. Like the power of a of a face to face meeting rather than, you know, on Zoom or rather than an email. Like that old fashioned stuff still has a huge place. Absolutely.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I can't I I can't imagine that ever won't be a place for that. Yeah. ⁓ and you've always done that so well. Yeah. Well no, I mean I I've seen that working together over the years as well. But I wanna I wanna rewind a bit 'cause obviously you've kind of told the front end of your story, which is I I learned a lot. ⁓ which is so interesting, but it's like you've kind of fallen back into real estate three times by the sounds of things. What kept you coming back?
speaker-1: Thank you. ⁓ do you know what? I innately I'm a service person. Yeah. So, you know, people talk about ⁓ love language, mind's service and and and and gifts of service, you know. so I one of the things I loved the most was dealing with people. And later in my career where I learned more about myself as a leader, I actually loved developing people and to actually be able to watch people grow. And push them out of their comfort zones. And then them actually coming back to you and saying, I wouldn't have been where I was without you is actually a really nice feeling. It's great. And I, you know, over the years I look at ⁓ I think I was talking to you last week about a a girl that used to work for me. ⁓ pre me even knowing anything about leadership, you know, she she says to me To this day, like she's had her own business now probably about ten years. She's ⁓ a one-man band, does property management and does it very well and does sales. And she actually says to me, I wouldn't be the property manager I am without you. You taught me so much. But I didn't think at the time I taught her anything. But it's funny, you know, monkey see, monkey do. Yeah. And it you know, the standards that you keep and the work ethic you keep, you know, even down to having a clean desk and a clean office and how you treat people and how you Talk to people on the phone, there's always someone watching and there's always someone listening and soaking that up. Yeah. And I think that is really important for everybody to remember.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. And I think looking looking at your career and looking at the way you carry yourself, I'd say one of your real strengths as a leader and as a business owner ⁓ is consistency over intensity. Yes. You do the little things right all the time. Yeah. Whereas you see a lot of people come into the industry and they, you know, blaze of glory, they do something great for a couple of weeks and then it kinda fizzes out. Yes. And I think you've fr my observation you've always really played a long game in a really positive, consistent way. Yeah. Would that be right?
speaker-1: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think ⁓ and yeah, definitely I always say I used to always say to my girls, let's just do the A, B, and C. Yeah. Because, you know, ultimately that's what the client wants and ultimately that's all we need to provide. And then let's sprinkle the fairy dust to well them. And that is always the way I've worked. So if you know meeting expectations and setting expectations is really important when you're dealing with clients. So if you say you're gonna do something, you've gotta do it. Yeah. But don't ever promise too much that you can't meet that expectation. So for example, our the girls that used to have on a PM team, it was never expected of them and actually I never wanted them to be working after hours. So we used to set that expectation with our clients, but we also used to have a process in place to cover after hours. Yeah. So if someone needed us after hours, there was a process. It didn't mean the girls had to jump on and do something. Because and I used to train in this that if you're a a PM that continuously answers emails after hours or phone calls after hours and your clients think that's wonderful, what happens the weekend you stop? Because the weekend you stop is the weekend you've dropped the standard that that client expects. Absolutely. So accept the expectation in the first place. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I always worked on that mentality. One of the other biggest lessons I've had in my career is, and it was Peter Gilchrist that said this to me, sort of name-dropping here, but don't mean to. But he actually I was talking about leadership and the stress and the burnout of doing everything for everybody and taking on all the hard stuff. And he actually said to me, That's a really selfish attitude. And I went, ⁓ He goes, You're actually being really selfish. And I was like a bit taken aback. And then he explained it and he said, By you Doing everything for everybody and taking all the hard stuff on, you're not allowing your team to grow and develop. Cause you're not, you're giving them a false sense of reality. So you're actually allowing them to do all the good stuff, but you're not building res resilience or allowing them to learn from their mistakes. And that changed my whole ethos of how I worked as a leader from there on. So that meant like if my girls were having a tough time, I was there to support them. But I wanted them to come up with the answer and the solution first, no matter how hard it was. For sure. And we would guide that through. And I was always had an open door policy. So my door was always open. I was always available. And I always used to say to my team, I don't care if you make a mistake. But if you make one, let's use it as a platform to learn and a platform to change processes. Yeah. And we used to do that as a group. And that's how the team then became, I think, so resilient and so strong and so adverse at dealing with issues because we identified them, we learned from them. Where a lot of, I think, and I shouldn't generalize, but I feel sometimes in property management, if a property manager's made a mistake and they don't have the support, you can guarantee they build up stress and two months down the track they've resigned. Yeah. And then the problem's
speaker-0: And then the problems come out. Yeah. And I think to in create an environment where it's safe to make mistakes. We all make mistakes, right? Absolutely. We're all human. Still today. Yeah. Every day. But to ⁓ create that environment for your people is so powerful because I think being being in a safe space is such an important part of coming to work every day. And yeah. So often I think you and I've talked about this before, you hear these horror stories of PMs who ⁓ get, you know, unceremoniously marched out of the office when they've decided to do something different or they've decided to make a change. And I think when we create a culture of safety and a culture of ⁓ empowering people, one, they're less likely to hide mistakes. Two, they're going to grow and become more resilient. But three, I think it comes that that pivot in people's career when they do decide they're ready for a change. How we as leaders manage that. How how did you find that when people left? I know you had great retention, but how did you
speaker-1: Yes. So I think one of the things was being really transparent. Any industry has churn with employees. Sure. And I think all your clients and your team want to know is what's the way forward. Yeah. So okay, ⁓ you know, Kate's left. Who's gonna be looking after me now? Who's my point of contact? Or for the team, if you haven't you know, if you haven't filled that spot. the the first thing they think about is what is the extra stress gonna be on me. Yeah. So you need to have that plan in place to go, okay, this is the short term plan. We're all gonna pitch in and do this together. but I think from a client point of view, I think it's really important both owners or landlords and tenants, they need to know what's going on. Cause it's very common, especially in property management and even in sales to a to a to a point of you know, they just get a new name at the bottom of an email. And they're like, I've had twelve different property managers this year. So I always manage that that letter and notification always came from me. Yeah. It always had what was the next step on it. It always had the plan. And it always had on the on the letter, if there's something that you're waiting on an answer from or there's something you've been requesting and it's been overlooked, please bring it to my attention so we can deal with it. Yeah. And that That saved us from losing managements, it saved us from losing clients, it saved us from losing team members. And you know, it was short term pain for long term gain. Like I just used to get in the trenches with the team and we would sort it out. And same with holiday leave. Like, you know, if a team member's going on holidays, let their clients know. Yeah. They're gonna be away, but we've got it covered. This is the process. And I with holiday leave used to allocate everyone in the team a day to look after.
speaker-0: Amazing.
speaker-1: Okay. When a team member was away. Yeah. So anything that came into that inbox in that day, that was your responsibility to check it. That's a deal with it. How'd that work for the team? Amazing. Because they only had to deal with one day. Yeah. So it was just it was just one day of extra pressure on them. But that's all they had to deal with.
speaker-0: Great way to manage it. Yeah. Yeah. And from a leadership perspective, and I I know this is so common in PM, ⁓ and I know that you're happy to do it, but that balance of constantly getting sucked back into being on the tools and then you're back into leadership on the tools when when you've got those kind of changes or holidays and so on, how did you manage that? Because as a team grows, you've got more cover that's needed. Yeah. How did you manage that?
speaker-1: I think for me it wasn't necessarily during the day to day. It was more about ⁓ checking in with each team member and seeing where they were at capacity wise and what they may need of help with. ⁓ I think as you get more experienced in property management, like it was easy for me to jump onto a team member's inbox and deal with a heap of stuff that was really quick that could be done. So the inbox didn't look as crowded. Yeah. And then it was about setting up their day and helping them with that. And letting them know that they could come to me if they needed anything. So it wasn't about me jumping in and actually doing the frontline work in the end. Like don't get me wrong, I used to, but in the end it wasn't. It was more around supporting them and being there in the trenches. And I think it's really important too to look at the mood and the vibe ⁓ within your department to go, okay, well, you know, Kate looks stressed. Just using Kate as a name. We don't have a Kate. Kate looks stressed. ⁓ you know, let's have a check in with Kate and see where she's at. And let's see what we can help her with. And then just I think, you know, talking to the team at the end of each day or each morning to say, you know, we've done amazing today. ⁓ we've got a few more hurdles to jump. Let's do it together as a team. Yeah. And I think that was really important. And knowing that I was there all the time.
speaker-0: I love that mentality.
speaker-1: I know you listen I I listened to the podcast that you did with ⁓ with Alex ⁓ the last session. Yeah. And she'd mentioned me stepping into her her business. And I ⁓ I suppose one of my most recent challenges is I had a a a personal challenge in life and you know, I think you've got to have the mentality of you're either you're rocking in the corner with a bottle of wine or you're getting into it. And I got into it and went into the Black Shaw's office. And ⁓ Alex was a great support to me as with that team and was there for two years and grew to love that team. Alex and I are very different. We're very similar, but very different in how we work. and ⁓ it I wanted to get Alex to let go a little bit. So, and it look, it takes having someone that you can trust in your office to be able to do with that as well. And she ⁓ which I'm very privileged to have done, she put 100% of her trust in me. And we ⁓ got her to step back and I sort of started getting the team to work in the way that I would get my team to Prevy's team to work. And it worked amazingly. And it also meant that it freed up some time for Alex, but it also meant that ⁓ she still had a lot of contact with her clients because they knew that she was there. Yeah. And the team were just growing and they were doing an amazing job. And it just came back because they knew They had the support of Alex and they had the support of me. Yeah. And we we just collaborated on everything and it just worked.
speaker-0: So what a power team. Yeah. I mean, also I think that period ⁓ r really helped ⁓ Alex's business with succession planning as well. Yes. And I think sometimes, you know, Alex is exceptional, absolutely exceptional at what she does. But even just having a s different perspective can completely shift how a business operates or elevate how a business operates. And I think the fact, you know, I loved watching that period of time you guys are working. Yeah, you just it just looked great. Like culturally it looked great and
speaker-1: Yeah, we had fun.
speaker-0: ⁓ I'd love to from your experience over the years, how have you built I mean, you've talked about a lot of great initiatives you've done operationally with the team, but how have you built such strong cultures over the years?
speaker-1: ⁓ do you know, culture for me is not ⁓ fancy events or dinners or anything. Culture for me is ⁓ everyday consistency. So one of the one of the ⁓ absolute non negotiables in the businesses when we had them and even when I was at Alex's was you have to say good morning and you have to say goodbye. Yeah. 'Cause the amount of people that will walk into an office and get absolutely nothing. Like that's not a nice feeling. No. Like you walk in and nobody talks to you. It's not a nice feeling. So it was a non-negotiable and I think as a leader, you need to set that tone. Yeah. So I know a lot of leaders could come in and they can just walk and sit in their office, shut the door and that's it, nobody sees for them. So for me it was very much about walking in, hi team, how you going? Usually I was the first one there. And even when I was the first one there, I would come out of my office and say good morning to the girls or good morning to the guys, you know. What's on the agenda today, need any help with anything? And even goodbye. If we were if someone was leaving at 3 30 or 4 30, goodbye. ⁓ birthdays were really important. ⁓ and just and and special milestones in people's lives because you spend so much of your time at work, you need to know those things. Great. And you need to be on top of them. Like someone's going on leave or, you know, someone's having a, you know, their their sister's having a baby or their child's graduating or you know, they're they're gonna become a grandparent. Like those things are really important to celebrate, like the life outside work. Because I feel over the years I've learned the majority of the stress that comes into the office is not necessarily work stress. It's life stress. Yeah. And so you've gotta you've got to have empathy about to listen without getting too involved. and rightly or wrongly, I I don't know. Jason and I did not socialize a lot with our team outside of work. Yeah. But we had a really respectful relationship with them and we cared. Yeah. And I think that's the biggest thing.
speaker-0: Yeah. I love that you say like little things like saying good morning and good goodbye when you leave the office. I I work with businesses around the country. I've experienced the same with leaders who don't do that. Yep. And I think it's it's really palpable when you walk into a space, the vibe. And every time I've walked into offices that you've been in, it's always felt like a really positive vibe. Yeah. ⁓ and I think that's testament not just to your leadership, but that consistency of
speaker-1: Well, and I think how the office feels as well, like have respect in your office, you know, and have respect for each other as well. Like don't leave your dirty dishes in the sink. You know, don't have yes crap everywhere. Yeah. Like, you know, have it as a nice environment to work in. Yeah. We used to have a daily gratitude board in our office and we used to have memes around. And, you know, and I want people to have, you know, photos of their family at their desk. I want them to have plants, you know. I don't want them to overtake everything, but I want them to have it because that's their environment, that's their space. And I want them to feel ⁓ good about coming to work. Yeah. You know, having some ownership and some pride in where they work every day I think's really important.
speaker-0: couldn't agree more. And and what they carry into the office, you can imagine, is similar to their home life, right? So if they're well organised, they're structured, they're they're tidy, they're focused at at home, that comes through to work and vice versa. Yes. And so we I think as leaders we have a responsibility to try to help people be better people.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. And I look, I think ⁓ COVID, when COVID hit, I mean, we were obviously a bit, I think, a bit more fortunate in in Queen Been and and Canberra, but definitely in Queen Been, we were still able to work in our office with the door closed and with with social distancing. But it was also a nice, I think a nice escape for our team at the time to come in and still be able to have some normality in life. I bet. Like it it was nice for them to be able to come in and have that normality and I just you know, I think ⁓ no matter what stresses are going on at home and everybody has them, yeah. ⁓ you should be able to come in the office and feel a sense of well, this is a new place. This is somewhere I can just be me and just do what I need to do.
speaker-0: I love that. You touched on earlier about going through a difficult time personally and and still wanting to show up for the team and for Alex. Yeah. ⁓ I mean a lot of people have challenges in their lives at different times. What kind of advice would you give to people to kind of keep showing up every day? 'Cause that was particularly hard for you and you just were amazing.
speaker-1: I think ⁓ look, I think you obviously gotta have a strong mindset around that. And I think what you feed your mind will actually ⁓ come out into the outside world. So I personally I looked after myself through exercise, ⁓ through what I ate, ⁓ through what I was feeding my mind, so positive things, ⁓ and I had a good support network around me as well. And I just I think you When you face something that's a challenge in life, I think you've got to have that mentality of, ⁓ this is not gonna beat me. Yeah. I'm better than this and I'm gonna keep moving forward. And it wasn't something that I needed to bring to the rest of the team. ⁓ the team knew. Sure. Alex knew, the office knew, and they were super supportive of me, but it's not something we talked about every day. We just got on and did it. Like they were a great distraction for me. Yeah, good. ⁓ and to feel That support and love around me was, you know, w was was tenfold. It helped me to no end. And I think sometimes you just have to block out the noise. Yeah. ⁓ because, you know, those that know know, they know what what went on. And there was a lot of noise around it and there was a lot of gossip around it. And I think you just need to hold your head high and you just gotta be true to yourself and just keep moving forward. So
speaker-0: So ⁓ that's a probably a really good segue into values. Yes. ⁓ you're a very values driven person. What would you say your values are?
speaker-1: think look ⁓ connection over commerce so it's to me it's always about the connection before of the business so how you connect with people. integrity is a huge value. Yeah. Honesty. Yeah. ⁓ authenticity. So just being your authentic self. Yeah. ⁓ you know that whole your vibe attracts your tribe, think's really true. ⁓ and yeah not compromising on your values either. So you know and and Doing right even when nobody's watching. Yeah. I think that's a huge that's a huge thing. ⁓ I'm not one that gets involved with drama. Yeah. I I step away from that. ⁓ definitely a very supportive person and someone that will will listen, but I I don't want to get involved with the drama. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, and that's probably put you in good stead throughout your career, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think ⁓ you know, I just you know, I know there was a question there about legacy and I think for me the legacy is you know, she helped, she listened, she was there. ⁓ and she did it without agenda. And ⁓ I think that's what I would like to be remembered for. That's amazing. That you know, I like collaboration's a huge thing for me. I don't I don't see anybody as competition. ⁓ I think we all work stronger together, no matter what office we're in. Yeah. Or or who we work for. And ⁓ you and I both know we've we've got some amazing friends throughout this industry. Yeah, so great. And amazing friends that you can pick up the phone and talk to and go, hey, this is going on. What do you think? Yeah. You know, and I think that's the power of our industry. If if you allow it. Yeah. I know there's people that don't allow it, but I think if you are open to collaboration and you see your industry peers as you know, a strength rather than competition, we'll all go a long way.
speaker-0: I agree. I mean I'm I'm incredibly grateful for the friendships I've got in the industry. I think we're so lucky.
speaker-1: Yeah, around the world too.
speaker-0: Isn't it? Yeah. When you think about it, the people we've met over the years and the connections. It's pretty remarkable, isn't it? Yeah.
speaker-1: I do ⁓ a little bit of business coaching still now for a couple of small businesses and sometimes they just need someone to talk to and bounce some ideas off. Yeah. And just to see it in a different light. Yeah. ⁓ for it to all be okay. Absolutely. And I think that's a really important thing.
speaker-0: And often we know the answer, don't we? But just hearing it from someone else that you trust really helps. Makes you feel
speaker-1: The whole imposter syndrome. Yeah. No, I'm not good at this. I can't do this. Yeah. Me when I came here today, like, yeah, I look really doing it. So it's yeah, I yeah, I've there's definitely a lot of people in the industry I look up to. Yeah. ⁓ and I think that's the thing too. Like, you know, there's no competition. There's just people that'll walk beside you. Yeah. Yeah. And you learn from a hundred percent we're.
speaker-0: Aren't we? ⁓ I'm jumping around a little bit, sorry. That's okay. But earlier mentioned ⁓ you know, having the people in the b in the businesses that you've worked in, ⁓ know their role, been really well trained, have the right processes and systems, and then sprinkle the fairy dust. Yes. I love the the idea of that kind of ⁓ you know, unexpected things. It don't need to be massive. You touched on things like handwritten cards and so on. But over your career, can you think about times? Maybe, maybe even in sales might be more ⁓ easier to reflect on given it's more recent. But the fairy dust, wha tell me some examples.
speaker-1: Wow, there's so many. you know, I I think even just a phone call if you remember something or you've spoken to a client about something in the past, like, you know, they may have been going on a holiday or they may have been having a grandchild, if you put that somewhere in your notes the next time you're ringing them, yeah, you can actually say, ⁓ you know, how's little Johnny going? And they're like, ⁓ so they feel they don't feel like a number in your business. They actually feel like you're building a personal connection. you know, obviously, you know, I I suppose with I'm trying to think with with sales, there is a lot of things in sales that you do where you go above and beyond to to try and keep a deal together.
speaker-0: But I I imagine SARS is a bit different. You've got different budget. You know, like you look at like the Ritz carton ⁓ story where the team there could spend I think it was two thousand dollars to delight a customer, a guest by doing something they didn't expect. I mean, imagine if we did that in PM, we'd go broke.
speaker-1: Yes. w yeah, a hundred percent. And so I don't think it has to be expensive or PM either. you know, i it might be, you know, someone's lost a parent. And so a bunch of flowers from, you know, the PM team to say we're thinking of you. Yeah. It would be an unexpected. Absolutely. Because and you know, what, fifty bucks? Yeah. It's not it's it's those little things. Yeah. and I think it's really important as a leader that you You trust your team, but you're available to your clients. And they know you're there in the background. And so for me that meant you know, a as we scaled and we had a larger rent role and I wasn't managing their properties, it meant ⁓ end of month statements coming from me with a little wrap. That's fine. So so, you know, I I didn't mean I necessarily had to do the end of month, but the statements came from my email address. And so the other thing that used to do too is if there was any issues, they'd come back to me and I could get the team onto them. So they weren't just under the carpet, but they knew I was I was there. That's such a little percent. Because then they go, ⁓ well, you know, she's a business owner and this has come from her. So that's a great thing. And it keeps that connection. What is it? Like birthday cards was another thing. ⁓ you know, handwritten Christmas cards from the team. Like it's time consuming, but if you start it out far enough, it gets done. Yeah. yeah, I just there's lots of different little things, I suppose.
speaker-0: And it's and it's I guess relevant to the to the person that you're doing it for, right? Knowing them enough.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think also, you know, like there was all you know, I I suppose I go back to PM all the time because I have spent most of my career in PM. ⁓ you know, the routine inspection video phone call at the end. Yeah. You know, a lot of owners don't expect that. No. But you send that to them, say I'm at your property, scan it, looks amazing. Yeah. They don't expect that. Yeah. So it's not in your agreement to do that. No. But you've done it. And the The fairy dust moments are moments that you want people to talk about. Yes. So when they're at dinner with friends, ⁓ they're going, ⁓ no, my agent's amazing. They did this. Yes. Yeah. And they're and that's how you build connection and trust. And that's where your referral business comes from.
speaker-0: The moment of truth. Yeah. And in PM world that's so easy because there's so many reasons to be talking to them.
speaker-1: Hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. But it also comes down to ⁓ your team as well. Yes. So I think, you know, it's not always about the clients outside your office. It's also about the clients within your office, which are your team. And, you know, that as I said, that could be a birthday cake. It could be I understand it's harder with bigger businesses, but it doesn't have to be. I agree. Like it could be a birthday cake. It could be a card signed by everybody. ⁓ you know, it it could be, you know Congratulations for something. Yeah. It it it's caring about your team as well. Yeah. you know, it it just just the little things I think make a make a huge difference.
speaker-0: Do. They're the memorable ones, aren't they? Yeah. ⁓ your career, obviously you're still going, going strong. Yeah. Feeling it in sales back working with Jason. But if you looked back over the journey, how many years has it been?
speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ so coming into my thirty fifth year. Golly gosh. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Would you change anything?
speaker-1: I think my like myself now would have told my younger self certain things. Yeah. ⁓ you know, don't sweat the small stuff. you know, if it doesn't work, turn it off and switch it back on again. You know, and every day's a new day. Yeah. So there would be things, but I don't think I'd necessarily change anything because I think in anybody's career, everybody starts as a beginner. Yeah. And so you progress through your career and you learn new things. And I suppose with me being in sales, even though I can talk to people and I can do the service, there's things now that I'm learning in sales that that, you know, have pushed me out of my comfort zone. But they're working. Yeah, great. And it and it is going great. do I miss property management? Yeah. I don't know if I miss it that much. ⁓ but I, you know
speaker-0: Do you wanna come back? I've got a job.
speaker-1: And ⁓ but I think that comes back to that was where I comfortably sat. Yes, yes. And sat for, you know, for thirty years. Of course. ⁓ and so sales is a new challenge for me. Yeah. ⁓ but it still allows me to connect with people and provide a service, which is what I'm all about. And maybe I do that too much with some people, ⁓ to a fault, but I don't think I'd change it. Yeah. I think I still I think people want that and they deserve that. I agree.
speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ with with though obviously working in teams for a very long time and leading people, how has the shift been from now becoming a team?
speaker-1: I miss it so much. I actually I'm miss leading a team. obviously I I work from home a lot and so I don't go into the office a lot and that's on me, I could. Sure. but I also feel ⁓ sales is I wouldn't say insular, but it's it it's still not something that I we need to do in a team. Definitely, you know, people help each other and that's great. We we were able just to go on on holidays not long ago and we had two team members look after some stuff for us on the ground here, which was amazing. And I think but I do miss I miss growing people. I miss ⁓ leading a team and I miss watching the growth and people coming out of their shell to do that. So I don't really have the opportunity to do that right now. I suppose I've got to look at myself in the mirror 'cause I'm growing myself in sales now. Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: ⁓ but it's yeah, I do miss I miss being in that team environment. Yeah. And and leading a team, definitely.
speaker-0: Well if you ever change your mind and ⁓ want to be back in PM world, we should talk. Cody here first.
speaker-1: I know Hannah. Yeah, it's ⁓ I'm quite happy at sales at the moment. Amazing. Sales has been fun. And as I said, it's it's been a new challenge. Yeah. And a good challenge. Yeah. So ⁓ yeah. And I love, you know, I just absolutely love watching other people in the industry that I've worked with and I've grown up with throughout my career.
speaker-0: Yeah, so when you're doing it. Keep growing, right?
speaker-1: And just seeing their success and how well they are doing. Like I absolutely love that. Like, you know like, you know, I just look at Heidi with Little Bird lately. ⁓ killing it. You know, absolutely kill it. And love it. Love watching that. Love watching her team. ⁓ you know, Alex obviously with Black Shores, they've done an amazing job as well. And and I know the hard work that they all put in. And I just ⁓ I love watching, you know, fellow PM leaders absolutely killing it like that. Yeah, it's great. Yeah.
speaker-0: Cool.
speaker-1: 'Cause we we all grew up in this industry together. So yeah, it's great.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's pretty special. ⁓ any any last comments that you want to share? ⁓
speaker-1: no, I don't think so. I think just ⁓ you know, I think really people just need to remember that every day's a new day to start fresh. ⁓ you can't feel from an empty cup, you need to look after yourself first. I think it's a big one for me. And yeah, just you know, collaboration over competition always. Yeah. Yeah. Well No, it wasn't that bad. There you go.
speaker-0: Well said. Well, thank you. Was it that? Funny that. I really appreciate you being on the show. Thank you. Thank you for your time.
speaker-1: Cute.
