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Welcome back to Coffee Talk.
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Today's guest proudly calls herself a troublemaker, which obviously means that I really, really like her.
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Joanna Pineda is the CEO and chief troublemaker of Matrix Group International, where she works with associations and nonprofits.
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She asks a lot of questions, which I absolutely love.
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She challenges assumptions and she isn't interested in doing something a certain way just because that's the way it's always been done.
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Now she's asking us to look differently at the role that associations played during the pandemic.
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Her new book, When It Mattered Most, tells 24 stories of associations that stepped up when there wasn't a playbook.
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They protected professions, they helped save industries and did work most of us never knew was happening.
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So today we're talking about those stories, why associations matter, and of course, what it means to be a professional troublemaker.
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Joanna, welcome to Coffee Talk.
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Thank you so much.
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I am so happy to be here.
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Thank you.
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Yes.
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So, Joanna, I have known you for several years in the association world.
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You are a speaker and a leader on our education platform, UST Education.
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And it has been such a joy to spend time with you over the last couple of years and uh to get to know you and now to have this discussion with you around your book.
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And so I'm I'm just I'm so thrilled that that you agreed to come on Coffee Talk so we could chat about it.
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Thank you.
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I'm excited about the book.
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I know.
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I love this book.
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I love the stories, and I hope that I did them proud.
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Well, you know I love stories.
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I have a whole, you know, a whole area of my career that I built around stories and and retelling stories and holding space for stories are so important.
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Do you have the book with you right now?
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I do.
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Hang on, let me show you.
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If you are watching, uh Joanna has her here's her book, uh When It Mattered Miss.
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Look at that.
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In print.
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I know, in print.
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So this is an early author copy.
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You get to order copies when you're an author.
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And so this is the hard back.
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Here's the back.
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Look at that.
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Look at that.
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Kate, it is something when you're working on the book.
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So at some point, the person that you're working with to edit or format the book, they send you covers, right?
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So that you can give them feedback.
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And I remember the first time I saw these concepts for the cover, and you see your name at the bottom.
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I mean, Kate, it is a feeling.
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You're like, wow.
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And then to see the formatted, you know, version of the book before it goes to print, that's another milestone.
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And then I posted this on LinkedIn, you saw it.
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When the first books come and you unbox it and you see the book, the thing that you've been working on for almost three years in print.
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Oh man, it's a feeling, Kate.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then you just pray that there aren't a thousand typos, but you hope.
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Because four professional editors edited this thing.
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I remember I saw you in August at uh at an association event and you said to me, Kate, you have a book in you somewhere.
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I did.
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Yeah.
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I know.
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One day.
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One day I'll write it.
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I think it'll be I know you have a book in you.
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I think it'll be a good idea.
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You probably have several ideas.
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So many.
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So many.
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It's just which which one to settle on.
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Well, before we jump into the actual book, we have to start with your title because you know it's my favorite title of all titles.
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Chief Troublemaker.
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How does someone earn the title, Chief Troublemaker?
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You know, my staff gave me the title, and I've I've told this story before.
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It's it was a joke.
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I was going on my honeymoon, Kate, and we were designing new business cards, and somebody said, and they they were playing a practical joke on me.
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The does one of the designs I looked at said CEO and Chief Troublemaker.
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And I came back and I said, I love it.
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Can I keep it?
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And they said, Oh, it's your company.
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Go for it.
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Do that.
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And then you know what we did, Kate?
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As a result of that, we gave people the opportunity to give themselves any title they wanted.
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So we have the Shogun of Lunch, we had the Network Philosopher, we have the Pixel Pusher, we have the Bug Zapper, we have the First Impressions Officer, we have all kinds of stuff.
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Yeah.
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That's so fun.
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I think if I could make up a title for myself, it would be Chief Wine Pourer.
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Because I feel like that's what I do.
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Just in in all the the different roles in our in the company, I'm the the chief wine pourer.
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So maybe I should talk to Wade about adding that to underneath my name.
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We'll see what he does.
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Well, you know what my uh my shogun of lunch did?
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It's my chief technology officer.
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He said, Can I be shogun of lunch?
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And I said, sure.
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So what he did is he put it in Japanese on his title.
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So if you speak Japanese, you know that he's the shogun of lunch.
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But if you don't, you never know.
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Well, I remember when I was first just a couple of years ago, I was designing all of our graphics for UST Ed and your name came across.
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So I had to create your graphic for uh for your webinar, and I saw your title, and I probably said out loud, I don't know her yet, that I'm going to like her.
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Because if that's your title, we are going to get along swimmingly.
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So I love it.
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Well, you know, let's mate.
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Let me let me just say this.
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Being a chief troublemaker means that you create good trouble.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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And I think sometimes people will look to me and they'll say, I think you need to make some trouble here, Joanna.
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And they know that often I'm the person who will make the call that we got to start over, or that we're going down the wrong path, or that we need something bold.
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So that's what it means to be a troublemaker at Matrix Group, and I'm the chief troublemaker.
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You're the you you head it all, you head it all up.
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So let's talk about what all that troublemaking led you to uncover, that all that making good trouble.
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I had no idea that some of these stories existed.
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Your new book, When It Mattered, tells 24 stories, right?
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24 stories about what associations did during the pandemic.
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What made you realize those stories needed to be documented this way?
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You know, some people know that I have a podcast, it's called Associations Thrive.
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And every week I interview an association CEO about their personal journey and the things their organization is doing to thrive.
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And so in, I think it started in 2023, we were coming out of the pandemic, right?
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And I was still asking the question, what was it like to be you during the pandemic, the CEO?
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And what was it like to be your member?
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And there were enough of these stories where I thought, wait, hang on, you did what during the pandemic?
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And then I kept hearing them, and that I thought, wait, someone's got to tell these stories, right?
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And then and then eventually you say, you've got an itch and you can't put it down, and you say, I guess it's up to me to do it.
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And the very first story, and I talk about this in the book, that really started all this with was Patty Montague from the School Nutrition Association.
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And she said, Joanna, when schools close, kids go hungry, because 25 million kids in America are on free or reduced lunch.
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When schools close, they go hungry.
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And so she fretted over a two-week closure.
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We had way more than a two-week closure, so but even then, early in the pandemic in early March, when we hadn't even declared a pandemic, she was already thinking about what would happen to these kids and went proactively to the U.S.
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Department of Agriculture, which is the regulating body for school lunch, and said, Hey, will you work with us to pass waivers so that if schools close, the schools can get lunch to kids however they need to, because school lunch is heavily regulated.
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Kate, as an example, you have to serve them in what's called a congregate setting, meaning a group setting.
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Well, that wasn't happening during the pandemic.
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We were not in congregate settings.
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And so, you know, they did that on and on and on.
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And then the hunt was on for more stories.
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The airport executives, the school nurses, the pet retail stores, the grocery stores, the golf course owners.
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And each story was just so amazingly compelling.
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And then as I kind of dug into it, I thought, all right, there's enough here to write a book.
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And if I had more time, I would have put in more stories.
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At some point, you have to just kind of put it down and say, this is enough for now, and this is representative of what associations did, and then it turns into a book.
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I think that there's uh stories enough for there to be a part two.
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Um yeah.
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Because I think after this is published and people start reading, other people are gonna come to you with their stories and they're gonna trust you with them.
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And so I that's that's what I foresee is that there's gonna be a part two of this because there's more, there's more to tell.
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Kate, there have been many a night when I said to my husband, I don't need to do this again.
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Really?
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You're like one and done.
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That's it.
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Yeah.
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So, Kate, the thing is there's two parts to this.
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One, when you're working raising a family, you have to squeeze in the author part.
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You know that you're a podcaster and you do all these other things.
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You have to squeeze it in.
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But the other thing is that's a big responsibility to tell someone else a story.
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It is.
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So you double, triple, quadruple check, and then you work, you collaborate with the people that you've interviewed to make sure that it's accurate, that it really captures the essence of the association.
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It's a big responsibility, and I did not take that lightly.
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Yeah.
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I told you very transparently before we hit record that I was so nervous about this this episode because I do I admire you so much, Joanna.
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You are you are such a thought leader, and you you're you're just amazing in every way.
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And I wanted to be sure to do your story justice.
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And so I I understand that being a container for other people's stories comes with responsibility.
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Yeah.
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To deliver it in a in a way that that does the the storyteller justice.
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So I fully, I I absolutely get it.
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Going back to the the premise of this book, and we said that so many of what these association professionals were doing was going unnoticed.
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What was happening and and why was this under the radar?
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Why didn't we know that that this was happening?
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I think, Kate, that what was happening was they were in the thick of it.
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When you're in the thick of it, you don't think to tell the story.
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And I think associations are accustomed to doing.
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They're accustomed to putting on the conference, they're accustomed to publishing whatever, the magazine or the book, they're accustomed to advocating for a specific piece of legislation.
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The end result is what they promote.
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Right.
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The process of getting there is largely hidden.
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So I think that's one reason, right?
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So like if they reimagine their conference, they don't talk about how they reimagine the conference and the blood, sweat, and tears that went into it.
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But I think the other thing is that associations often it's all about their members.
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So they're talking about their members, not about themselves.
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And then I think the third reason is that associations, and I think maybe not just associations, but all of us, I think once the vaccine started rolling out and once we started going back in person, I think we were so eager to leave the pandemic that we said, oh, thank God.
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And we shoved those stories into a drawer and we said, okay, now things can go back to normal.
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Now I can see my team.
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Now I can do whatever.
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And Kate, I'll tell you, there were, there were, you know, execs that I interviewed who initially said, Twanna, I don't know.
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I don't know what we did during the pandemic.
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I don't think we did that much.
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And I pressed enough, and then the stories came, right?
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And I remember there was one one association that I interviewed for weeks afterwards, they'd say, Oh, and one more thing, and one more thing.
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So you could tell that kind of the process of unlocking the story did something, right?
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They started remembering all the work that they did.
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And then 100 Kate, every single one of them within about a week would say, I'm proud.
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Because they hadn't thought about just the gravity and the scale of what they had done.
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So hopefully by reading the story, they can step back and say, We did good work, we saved an industry, we like protected our members, we did all this great stuff.
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I mean, you said at association professionals are just they're they're doers and they get in there and and they they do it.
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And I think that's a that's true in a lot of other industries too.
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Like you we are faced with this unprecedented time, and it it is a call to leadership, it is a call to show up and do something we might not be comfortable with, or but we're just getting through.
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So, you know, to your point, to take the time and push pause and reflect and show appreciation to what was done.
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When COVID hit, we there was no playbook.
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Everyone was just making it up as we were going along.
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Associations, I think, were asked suddenly to make decisions that could affect entire professions, industries.
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And there's a, as I said, there's a lot of leadership in that.
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What did you learn about leadership from these organizations that stepped up in those moments?
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I'll tell you one story.
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It's the American Association of Airport Executives.
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Todd Haupley is the CEO, and he was the CEO during the pandemic.
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Now, AAAE is a 501 C6.
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And C6 organizations, Kate, were not eligible for PPP money.
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Mm-hmm.
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Because Congress said, oh, these are organizations that lobby or might lobby, and there's we don't want to be giving them, you know, money so that they can lobby.
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But what they didn't realize is they were, they were really locking out of PPP money, these what they're called business leagues or professional associations that do amazing work, that like develop standards, train hold professions, et cetera.
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So AAAE cut staff and reduced the salaries of the people who remained.
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And yet they were being asked to do much more for their members because they represent the people who run the airports.
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AAAE, in conjunction with some other associations, effectively lobbied Congress within weeks of the pandemic to provide relief to the airlines and the airports.
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Even though, Kate, air traffic dropped by 95%.
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So they kept the air, that money kept the airlines and the airports afloat.
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And it was really the advocacy of AAAE and some other associations that really allowed that to happen.
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But AAAE on its own had to deal with cuts to staff, staff that are overworked, with with members who are wondering what's going to happen to my industry when 95% of passengers are gone.
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So for me, the lesson in leadership was there, there was you endure.
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You have no choice.
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You have to lead.
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Even when you're hurting, even when you're down, you have to do it.
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Mary Greeley from the Healthcare Leadership Council, she said, there's a corner of my condo that I still can't go near because I spent so many hours there that it just brings back all those memories.
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So you so there's a physical and mental toll that even the associations execs, right?
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That they that they endured.
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So leadership was amazing.
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And these are these are leaders who led their teams, led the members, and worked collaboratively with their with their boards to step up.
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And you're talking about like split decisions, like the the turnaround time between these decisions that you're saying, or like immediately, you know, they went to top for the children with with lunches and and in the even the example that that you just gave, there was no time to sit back and and Wade Tetsuka, my boss, calls this acting like a kindergartner, where you just step in and you go because there is no roadmap of what is acceptable, what isn't.
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And so you just have to act.
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What do you think would have happened to our our airlines if if they hadn't stepped in and taken action there?
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So, you know, let's take the airlines again.
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If Congress hadn't acted fast, they would have laid off so many people because the PPP money wasn't available quickly, right?
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So they would have laid off people.
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We would have had lots of people who were suffering.
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Who knows what would have happened?
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:04.319
Later on, there was legislation that said, you know, you can't kick people out of their apartments and their homes, etc.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.960
The other thing that happens is when systems close down, it actually costs a lot of money to bring them back online.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:18.480
So I have a story in the book about a convention center in Amsterdam that closed down for several years.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:27.680
And when they literally like brought it back online, so many of the systems basically just weren't working anymore because disuse had crept in.
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:41.039
So one of the things that happened with the airlines and the airports is by literally keeping the lights on, you allowed those systems to remain online and be ready for when we became post-pandemic.
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:53.680
Something that I'm hearing in these stories is that there was huge impact happening without a lot of attention being paid to who was actually making it happen.
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.440
It's just a go, go, go.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.160
It's a it's a it's an action, it's a reaction.
00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:05.039
I'm I'm fascinated by the idea that a lot of this important work is is happening quietly.
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:13.839
I've had so many guests on Coffee Talk that have told similar stories of people that they know that impacted them and taught them about leadership.
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.799
This is a general question about associations.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:21.599
Has associations have historically been too quiet about their impact?
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:22.880
You know, that's a good question.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.039
I don't know that I'm the best person to answer that.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:31.680
I think that there is probably an inclination on the part of the CEOs to not brag, right?
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:33.119
Because they're servant leaders.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.160
They're there because they care about the mission, the profession, et cetera.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:37.279
So I think there's that.
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.720
I think there's also an inclination to put the members out in front.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:48.960
But I think the other thing is I think associations often are talk insiders because that's who they know.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:56.319
So I think that it's harder to reach a broader audience because you don't normally reach a broader audience, and you think, will they be interested?
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.240
So I think there's some of that.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:05.599
I I think, you know, for my association clients that say, you know, we really need to reach a broader audience, that's actually harder than it looks.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:11.119
So with this book, for example, I'm hoping that non-association people read it, but who knows?
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.440
The people I know are all in association.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:24.880
So maybe to all the people listening to this podcast, give it to a non-association person so that they can understand what an association really is and what it's capable of and what they did during the pandemic.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:47.279
Well, you just mentioned the value that associations put on their members, and we talk a lot about the value of membership, but your I think your book reveals another kind of value there, and that's the value that an association actually creates for an entire profession or an entire industry, including people that may never become members.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.359
Like lots of people are benefiting even from that.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.640
100%.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.559
I mean, Kate, there's the story of the American Counseling Association.
00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.720
Now, counseling, if you think about it, is in person, right?
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:01.920
You go see your counselor.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:09.599
And at the start of the pandemic, the American Counseling Association said, God, our members won't be able to see their clients.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:20.240
And so what they did is they partnered with an online provider to provide training to counselors to be able to provide counseling sessions over Zoom.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:26.160
And they made this training free to everyone, including non-members.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:32.880
So that's like I think they trained something like 50,000 counselors just in July alone of 2020.
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:34.640
So like pretty striking.
00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:44.559
But if you think about, I don't know, the pet advocacy network that really, you know, they made sure that pet retail stores stayed open.
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:53.839
By making sure that the pet retail stores stayed open, that they were considered essential, they made sure that the growers and the breeders could stay in business.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:54.319
Yeah.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:21:00.960
Because if all those outlets closed, then they wouldn't have had a place to, you know, kind of do their business.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:03.359
So the ripple effect is really great.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:17.200
And those, that groomer, that that, you know, that breeder, they probably have no idea that there was this organization in the case of Pet Advocacy Network, a coalition of these trade associations really working for the entire industry.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.160
Or like, I don't know, you take the Illinois Principals Association.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:28.079
I mean, they were advocating for schools period and teachers, period, not just principals, right?
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.160
That they were really trying to keep schools and education working.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:42.079
My my mind is going a million different directions and in how these initiatives have impacted me personally and my family.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:44.240
And I'm not a member of these associations.
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.920
And and I I was impacted by by that change.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:54.799
So this is an identified value that that we've gave we've given to these initiatives.
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.680
How how should that change the way that associations are showing up and talks?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.440
Talking about their added value.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.160
Let me tell you another story and then I'll get to that question.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:15.519
So the National Association of School Psychologists, among all the things that they did, one of them was they said, Oh God, what's going to happen to the professional pipeline?
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.599
Because what happens is you have to have a master's degree to be a school psychologist.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.279
And you need 1,200 hours in the classroom.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:33.279
Okay, if they couldn't get those hours in the classroom, say for a year or two, five years from now, you're going to have this problem, right?
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.960
Because whatever.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:36.640
There's all of a sudden there's going to be a gap.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.400
There's going to be a gap where we're just, we're just, we're just missing school psychologists.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.640
So think about that impact and think about how they were thinking ahead.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:50.000
They weren't just thinking about this cohort of students in 2020 and 2021.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:55.279
They were thinking about the impact to the schools and the students many years down the road.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.039
So how do you, and you know, parents have no idea.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.839
Someone was looking out for their kids' mental health.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:02.319
Yeah.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:04.480
So how do you communicate that?
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.519
I think, Kate, it's stories, right?
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:18.960
I think that by thinking about their value in a way that's accessible, that they they maybe tell a better story or a bigger story.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:25.839
One of the things that I tell my clients these days, Kate, is don't just talk to yourselves with your website and with your social media.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:33.039
I'm encouraging all my clients these days to have an about the profession or about the industry or learn about X on their website.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:35.599
And often they'll say, but we don't have that content.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:42.960
And we'll say, go develop it, or we'll work with you to develop it because it's so important to tell the story.
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:56.319
And in fact, Kate, this is not related to the book, but when we're working on a website redesign, we will often interview members and they'll almost all of them will say, our story is not being told at all, or it's not being told well.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.799
So they're hungry for their stories to be told.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:03.759
And I think that's a it's a call to arms, if you think, right?
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.400
To tell the story of the profession and the association is a big part of that story.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.240
Joanna, we're both marketers.
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:18.319
My marketing brain is coming up with a thousand different marketing strategies for them right now and and how to get this out in different ways.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:24.400
And because it it is such an added value and one that, and and I work with associations.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:26.559
I had no idea this was going on.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:27.440
Yes.
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:37.039
And so creating a a world, creating a space to you're ushering in a a change with your with your book and and getting these stories out.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:43.200
Every every association website should have a tab that says, here's what we did during the pandemic.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.279
You know, just I think so, yeah.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.160
Like, but Kate, I think there's another aspect of this.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.960
I think we all need to be better storytellers.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:57.279
I had to learn how to write these stories, and I'll tell you, Kate, the first versions were terrible.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.319
I mean terrible.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:04.799
They were clinical, they didn't have enough heart, they didn't have enough backup information, they weren't well researched.
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.240
They were kind of based on the interviews, but they had to be bigger than that.
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.640
So it had to be that I understood better.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:21.200
Obviously, I'm not an expert, but I had to understand better what was happening in schools in order to tell the story of the school nurses and the principals and the teachers and the school psychologists.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:28.480
So I think that we all have to be better at telling the story so that people listen to them, read them and say, oh wow, that's really interesting.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.640
It can't be clinical, it can't be numbers, it has to be personal.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:33.599
Personal.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.079
Yeah.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:39.759
Real connection happens in storytelling that moves beyond just creating community.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.279
It moves into a realm of connection and and identity.
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.000
Yes.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.160
And there's a lot of power in that.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:52.079
And and if I can be so bold to say that could create a member for life with that.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:52.559
Yeah.
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:53.039
Yeah.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:53.759
Yeah.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:03.119
We just with that that identity of of, you know, you you did something and and I appreciate you, respect you, see you for it.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:10.880
Now that we're several years removed from the pandemic, anybody that says that we return to normal is is nuts.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:12.799
We have we have not returned to normal.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:23.279
But now that we're several years removed from the pandemic, have you seen that willingness to experiment, that same level of leadership come forward?
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.759
Or have you noticed a pattern of slipping back into older habits?
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.599
That might be a good question.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:29.920
Yeah.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:30.960
I've seen both.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:37.039
I've seen some organizations that say, oh, thank God we're back to normal, whatever normal is.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:46.960
And I think that most organizations have not said, what did we learn from the pandemic and what lessons should endure?
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:56.319
What did we learn about member engagement and about connection that we had to work really hard to do that should endure today?
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:02.240
To be honest, I go to the conferences and I think, wow, this looks exactly like a conference from 2019.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:18.079
And I think that's okay, but we learned an awful lot about how to create sessions that are more interesting and how to create more one-to-one interactions during the pandemic because we were so worried that they wouldn't go to a virtual conference or that they would click away.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:19.440
So that's one thing.
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:25.599
I think the second thing is that there are definitely some organizations that I've seen do really bold things.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:34.160
I have seen some boards, Kate, that said we are complete, we are, we are changed as a result of the pandemic.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:36.400
Let's re-examine everything.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.359
The Catholic Health Association board said that.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:40.799
They said, let's re-examine everything.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.880
Do we even need an annual conference?
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:46.000
How often should we hold it and what format should it take?
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.559
To even ask that question is real leadership.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:56.559
But I'll tell you, Kate, there's one more thing, and that is I think during the pandemic, there was a real sense of urgency to the decision making.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:09.519
I personally think that between what's happening economically, politically, and with AI, I think this is just as life and death for associations as it was in 2020, but we're not acting like it.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:10.000
I agree.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.920
And I think we need to.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:16.559
That um as marketers, we know that our our marketing playbook was burned.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:22.240
I can talk about a world that I know very well in marketing, and we we can't ever go back.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.000
And everything has changed.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:38.000
And it it is the organizations, associations or not, if I can speak a little bit more broadly, that are willing to change and pivot and show up, be different than before, that are going to see success.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.599
I think the pandemic did a lot for us as humanity.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:44.319
It it reconnected us to each other.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.359
It showed us that we need each other, actually.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:47.920
Yeah.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:48.400
Yeah.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.720
Even in this age of AI when advances are night and day.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:58.880
I wake up in the morning to, you know, I have an agent that goes out and collects uh AI news from the day I wake up in the morning.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:05.119
And like these the advances in the last two weeks alone are mind-boggling.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.039
And you have to keep up.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.200
And you have to I don't know that it's possible to keep up, though, Kate.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.359
So I think you just have to figure out what your own plan needs to be.
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:16.960
There has to be a plan, though.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:22.319
There has to be an open growth mindset around it and not being the way that we were.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.880
And I know that that's a big call to action.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.880
Um, and there are lots of resources for what that actually looks like in business, but it is a completely different world.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.799
And I know that you agree with me on that one.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.599
Kate, can I mention one thing that surprised me from these interviews?
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:43.359
It was the idea that some industries or professions actually thrived during the pandemic.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:48.799
Now, some professions were just very, very damaged and hurt, like nursing, for example.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.119
It was so hard, so many nurses left.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:58.319
But some industries, and this is that they'll they'll never celebrate this because who wants to say we thrived during the pandemic?
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.000
It feels, you know, terrible.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.200
But like the golf industry thrived.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:14.960
Kate, after Tiger Woods, there was all this building, and then there was overbuilding, and golf courses started closing, and the number of people playing golf every year was on the decline.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:19.279
And then the pandemic hit, and governors were closing golf courses.
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.880
They were saying not essential, golf courses are on the sin list, etc.
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:32.720
The National Golf Course Owners Association and the American Golf Industry Coalition said, wait, wait, wait, please give, please keep golf courses open.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.400
People can be outside, they can distance while they play golf, and it's important for mental health.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:44.480
So by May of 2020, thanks to the advocacy of AGIC and NGCOA, every golf course was open.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:46.319
The governors all said yes, you can open.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:47.599
There were a few exceptions.
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:49.039
So here's what happened.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.680
Golf thrived during the pandemic.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.400
The number of golfers actually went up.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.160
And then I talked to Jay Karen, who said, Joanna, we held our breath.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.000
What's going to happen post-pandemic?
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:01.759
The numbers didn't go down.
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:03.519
The numbers kept going up.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:08.000
And so Jay said it was so exciting for us because we got to introduce more people.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:09.759
They call it the goodness of golf.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:13.039
And so you kind of, it's a mixed message, right?
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:14.720
Because this was a terrible time.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.519
But because golf courses were allowed to open early, they actually thrived.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:23.920
And when people got introduced to golf, they stayed with golf.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:29.599
So there's actually those stories of, Kate, I'm calling it adversarial growth.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:34.079
That during a really difficult time, they somehow found their lane.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:39.680
And some of it is pure luck and some of it is very strategic, but they found a way to thrive.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:47.119
So ISPOR, the Professional Society for Health Economics and Outcomes Research, vaccines had their moment, right?
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:48.400
During the pandemic.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:55.119
And so now the HEOR folks who were sort of relegated to the background had their day.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:04.880
So there are certain professions, infection preventionists who knew what an IP is, but all of a sudden we think about infection control and transmission.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:10.559
So I think that there's mixed outcomes that came as a result of the pandemic.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.440
And what you saw in the book is different ways that the organizations really kind of handled it.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:21.680
And in some cases, there were actually really strategic opportunities that they could hold on to or grab onto.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:34.240
So we've spent time talking about these organizations and what they did and how they showed up in this truly extraordinary moment in our timeline.
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:38.400
I'm curious about what this process actually did for you.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:43.039
So I want to turn the interview around on to you a little bit personally.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:57.920
After interviewing and researching these 24 stories, these organizations, did writing this book change the way that you think about associations, the way that you view them?
00:32:58.720 --> 00:32:59.519
Kate, 100%.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.079
I mean, nothing but admiration.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:06.799
I already knew I admired these associations and admired these leaders.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:18.400
But to dig deep into what they did, the hours they worked, the connections, really kind of the unfailing love for the professions and their members.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.119
I mean, it's really, really very noteworthy.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.079
So that that was really, really important.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:30.799
And it just made me more than ever just really proud that I work with these folks.
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:35.680
But Kate, there's another thing that happened that I finally accepted.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:41.519
I finally have stepped into I'm a storyteller.
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.119
I was reluctant to say that before.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:51.279
And then when I when I got the book in print, Kate, I finally said, I'm a storyteller.
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.359
And it really brought tears to my eyes.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.720
Like, what an honor.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.279
But it took a long time to get there.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.440
I I understand.
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:01.599
I absolutely understand.
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:03.839
It is being a storyteller.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.920
And I said it a minute, a minute ago.
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:08.159
I call myself a container of stories.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.039
I hold these stories very close to me.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:12.000
They impact me.
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.360
They change the way that I move throughout my day.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.679
They change the way that I move throughout my career.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:19.840
They change the way that I interact with people.
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:26.400
And to be called to be a storyteller and to be a holder of these stories.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.280
I mean, you, Joanna, you put people at ease.
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.920
People trust you right from the beginning.
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.239
And that is that's part of it.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:44.719
That's part of being a storyteller because there has to be that sense of trust and ease in opening up and asking sometimes asking hard questions.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.840
I sometimes ask questions and people are like, whoa, we're going deep.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:48.480
I'm like, yeah.
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:49.360
Right, right.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:49.760
Yeah.
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:50.239
Right.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.880
And there has to be that is a special person that that is called to that.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.000
And you definitely are.
00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:00.480
So I'm glad you stepped into your power of being a storyteller of all.
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:02.639
I've changed my whole introduction.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.800
You know, when I meet someone, storyteller is now part of the introduction.
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:07.920
I love it.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:19.599
If someone finishes when it mattered most and remembers only one thing, if there's one big thing, what do you hope stays with them and changes them?
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:22.400
Can it be two things?
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:23.119
Sure.
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:23.679
Okay.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:25.519
You're chief troublemaker.
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:26.719
Right on your own.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.039
There's a story in the book about the Count the Calfth Association.
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.920
And Brian Reardon was the person I interviewed.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:35.599
He's the VP of communications.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:41.519
And he said that the staff was very, very caring of the members, and they kept saying, What more can we do?
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:43.519
But Sister Mary had a different question.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.760
Sister Mary is the president of CHA.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.320
She said, What are we called to do?
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.880
And I, God, just just even saying that gives me chills, Kate.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:54.239
What are we called to do?
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:58.320
So I think that suffuses the entire book.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.440
What are we called to do as leaders?
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:09.599
And what what did these leaders and what these these chief staff execs and board members feel called to do for their communities?
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:16.000
I think it's such a wonderful way to think about your responsibility to your staff, to your members, to your community.
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:18.159
So that's for me, that's one thing.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:48.800
And then I guess the second thing is I hope that people realize just how much associations really impact so many parts of our lives and how we should really, instead of thinking, I don't, I don't attend the conference, so I shouldn't join or I don't shouldn't renew, that they should really dig deep and see which organizations are doing good work that I should support, even if I don't attend every course or attend every conference.
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:54.880
What work should I support and affiliate with so that we are stronger?
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:57.679
So that that's I think my message.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:58.719
That's a good one.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:00.320
One more question for you.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.480
As I said in my introduction of you, you've spent your career challenging assumptions, which is so needed.
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.880
We don't need a bunch of yes mans in the room.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.159
We need people that challenge us and make us think differently.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:18.000
What's something through this process that you have changed your own mind about?
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:20.000
Two things.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:29.599
I mean, and it's very personal, and that is that sometimes you have a notion of who you are, and it turns out that you can be somebody else.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.559
And I think at any age, you can decide to do something else and change your identity.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:39.039
And so for me, I now have author, and that's really big for me.
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:41.440
And I never thought that I could step into that.
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:50.239
So I I think the the thing that I've learned is that no matter who you are, and no matter how old you are and what you do, you can step into something different.
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:52.239
That's beautiful, Joanna.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.679
That's really beautiful.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.519
Well, tell me about the book.
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:56.639
When is it coming out?
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.280
So October 8th, you can buy it on Kindle.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.840
It's actually 99 cents for three days.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:03.360
So like buy your copy.
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:05.920
You can also get a hard copy and a paperback.
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:15.760
I I can't wait to dig into this book more and uh become a container for these stories and let them change me and impact me in the way that I move around.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.519
Joanna, thank you.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:20.079
I love conversations like this.
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:26.320
They make me, they make us look differently at something that maybe we thought we already understood.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:31.360
They give us a different perspective, knowledge and understanding of something that was going on that we had no idea.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:50.320
There are associations even now doing really incredibly important work, like during the pandemic, now protecting professions, helping industries to survive and thrive, making decisions when there isn't a playbook, just moving forward and acting.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:59.199
I think a big takeaway for me in this is that impact doesn't always happen loudly.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:00.239
Yes.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:11.679
Sometimes it's just being willing to step up bravely, ask questions, spring into action, and you know, do what needs to be done and move on.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:12.159
Yep.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:16.320
Taking a line from your playbook maybe uh causing a little trouble along the way.
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:17.199
All right.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:17.760
Yeah.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:19.840
Joanna, thank you so much for joining me.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:25.440
I will be putting links to Joanna's book and uh and also to her LinkedIn in the show notes.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:28.559
Again, thank you for joining me and to everyone listening.
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:30.320
We'll see you next time on Coffee Talk.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.519
Kate, thank you so much.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:33.039
What an honor for me to be on the show.
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:33.360
Thank you.
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:34.639
What a joy to have you here.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:36.079
See you next time.
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.519
Thank you for joining us today on Coffee Talk.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:46.719
A special thanks to my guests for sharing their story and to you, the listener, for being a part of this conversation.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:52.000
If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you never miss a Monday morning chat.
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.280
Until next time, I'm Kate Coffee Bacon, and this has been Coffee Talk.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:02.560
Welcome back to Coffee Talk.
00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:11.519
Today's guest proudly calls herself a troublemaker, which obviously means that I really, really like her.
00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:21.199
Joanna Pineda is the CEO and chief troublemaker of Matrix Group International, where she works with associations and nonprofits.
00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:26.399
She asks a lot of questions, which I absolutely love.
00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:34.880
She challenges assumptions and she isn't interested in doing something a certain way just because that's the way it's always been done.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:41.200
Now she's asking us to look differently at the role that associations played during the pandemic.
00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:49.359
Her new book, When It Mattered Most, tells 24 stories of associations that stepped up when there wasn't a playbook.
00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:57.039
They protected professions, they helped save industries and did work most of us never knew was happening.
00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:06.400
So today we're talking about those stories, why associations matter, and of course, what it means to be a professional troublemaker.
00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.519
Joanna, welcome to Coffee Talk.
00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:10.879
Thank you so much.
00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:12.640
I am so happy to be here.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:13.439
Thank you.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:14.000
Yes.
00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:19.120
So, Joanna, I have known you for several years in the association world.
00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:25.280
You are a speaker and a leader on our education platform, UST Education.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:37.519
And it has been such a joy to spend time with you over the last couple of years and uh to get to know you and now to have this discussion with you around your book.
00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:43.439
And so I'm I'm just I'm so thrilled that that you agreed to come on Coffee Talk so we could chat about it.
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:44.400
Thank you.
00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:46.239
I'm excited about the book.
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:46.879
I know.
00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:47.760
I love this book.
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.640
I love the stories, and I hope that I did them proud.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:52.560
Well, you know I love stories.
00:01:52.719 --> 00:02:03.200
I have a whole, you know, a whole area of my career that I built around stories and and retelling stories and holding space for stories are so important.
00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:05.760
Do you have the book with you right now?
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:06.719
I do.
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:07.840
Hang on, let me show you.
00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:13.439
If you are watching, uh Joanna has her here's her book, uh When It Mattered Miss.
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:14.000
Look at that.
00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:14.560
In print.
00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:15.680
I know, in print.
00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:17.599
So this is an early author copy.
00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:19.520
You get to order copies when you're an author.
00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:20.719
And so this is the hard back.
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:21.680
Here's the back.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:22.240
Look at that.
00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:23.039
Look at that.
00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:26.560
Kate, it is something when you're working on the book.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:32.719
So at some point, the person that you're working with to edit or format the book, they send you covers, right?
00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:34.159
So that you can give them feedback.
00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:40.240
And I remember the first time I saw these concepts for the cover, and you see your name at the bottom.
00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:41.840
I mean, Kate, it is a feeling.
00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:42.960
You're like, wow.
00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:49.199
And then to see the formatted, you know, version of the book before it goes to print, that's another milestone.
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:51.599
And then I posted this on LinkedIn, you saw it.
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When the first books come and you unbox it and you see the book, the thing that you've been working on for almost three years in print.
00:02:57.680 --> 00:02:59.599
Oh man, it's a feeling, Kate.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:02:59.919
Yeah.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:00.400
Yeah.
00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.639
And then you just pray that there aren't a thousand typos, but you hope.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.360
Because four professional editors edited this thing.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:14.639
I remember I saw you in August at uh at an association event and you said to me, Kate, you have a book in you somewhere.
00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:15.520
I did.
00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:16.159
Yeah.
00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:16.800
I know.
00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:17.520
One day.
00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:18.719
One day I'll write it.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:20.800
I think it'll be I know you have a book in you.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:21.759
I think it'll be a good idea.
00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.759
You probably have several ideas.
00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:24.800
So many.
00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:25.360
So many.
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:27.120
It's just which which one to settle on.
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:34.159
Well, before we jump into the actual book, we have to start with your title because you know it's my favorite title of all titles.
00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:35.680
Chief Troublemaker.
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.039
How does someone earn the title, Chief Troublemaker?
00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:42.879
You know, my staff gave me the title, and I've I've told this story before.
00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:44.000
It's it was a joke.
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:53.840
I was going on my honeymoon, Kate, and we were designing new business cards, and somebody said, and they they were playing a practical joke on me.
00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:57.360
The does one of the designs I looked at said CEO and Chief Troublemaker.
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And I came back and I said, I love it.
00:03:59.280 --> 00:03:59.840
Can I keep it?
00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:01.599
And they said, Oh, it's your company.
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:02.159
Go for it.
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:02.639
Do that.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:04.479
And then you know what we did, Kate?
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:10.240
As a result of that, we gave people the opportunity to give themselves any title they wanted.
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:21.199
So we have the Shogun of Lunch, we had the Network Philosopher, we have the Pixel Pusher, we have the Bug Zapper, we have the First Impressions Officer, we have all kinds of stuff.
00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:21.839
Yeah.
00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:22.879
That's so fun.
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:27.199
I think if I could make up a title for myself, it would be Chief Wine Pourer.
00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:29.839
Because I feel like that's what I do.
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:36.560
Just in in all the the different roles in our in the company, I'm the the chief wine pourer.
00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:40.160
So maybe I should talk to Wade about adding that to underneath my name.
00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:41.199
We'll see what he does.
00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:43.920
Well, you know what my uh my shogun of lunch did?
00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.519
It's my chief technology officer.
00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.279
He said, Can I be shogun of lunch?
00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:48.399
And I said, sure.
00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.000
So what he did is he put it in Japanese on his title.
00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:56.319
So if you speak Japanese, you know that he's the shogun of lunch.
00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:58.879
But if you don't, you never know.
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:06.240
Well, I remember when I was first just a couple of years ago, I was designing all of our graphics for UST Ed and your name came across.
00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:16.000
So I had to create your graphic for uh for your webinar, and I saw your title, and I probably said out loud, I don't know her yet, that I'm going to like her.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.199
Because if that's your title, we are going to get along swimmingly.
00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:19.920
So I love it.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:21.439
Well, you know, let's mate.
00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:22.480
Let me let me just say this.
00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:26.560
Being a chief troublemaker means that you create good trouble.
00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:27.040
Yeah.
00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:27.360
Right.
00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:34.639
And I think sometimes people will look to me and they'll say, I think you need to make some trouble here, Joanna.
00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:44.399
And they know that often I'm the person who will make the call that we got to start over, or that we're going down the wrong path, or that we need something bold.
00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.879
So that's what it means to be a troublemaker at Matrix Group, and I'm the chief troublemaker.
00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:51.920
You're the you you head it all, you head it all up.
00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:59.040
So let's talk about what all that troublemaking led you to uncover, that all that making good trouble.
00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.040
I had no idea that some of these stories existed.
00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:07.839
Your new book, When It Mattered, tells 24 stories, right?
00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:14.959
24 stories about what associations did during the pandemic.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.439
What made you realize those stories needed to be documented this way?
00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:24.319
You know, some people know that I have a podcast, it's called Associations Thrive.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:31.680
And every week I interview an association CEO about their personal journey and the things their organization is doing to thrive.
00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:37.279
And so in, I think it started in 2023, we were coming out of the pandemic, right?
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:42.879
And I was still asking the question, what was it like to be you during the pandemic, the CEO?
00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:44.720
And what was it like to be your member?
00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:51.439
And there were enough of these stories where I thought, wait, hang on, you did what during the pandemic?
00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:58.079
And then I kept hearing them, and that I thought, wait, someone's got to tell these stories, right?
00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:06.240
And then and then eventually you say, you've got an itch and you can't put it down, and you say, I guess it's up to me to do it.
00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:14.000
And the very first story, and I talk about this in the book, that really started all this with was Patty Montague from the School Nutrition Association.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:22.879
And she said, Joanna, when schools close, kids go hungry, because 25 million kids in America are on free or reduced lunch.
00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:25.600
When schools close, they go hungry.
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.120
And so she fretted over a two-week closure.
00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:42.399
We had way more than a two-week closure, so but even then, early in the pandemic in early March, when we hadn't even declared a pandemic, she was already thinking about what would happen to these kids and went proactively to the U.S.
00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:57.920
Department of Agriculture, which is the regulating body for school lunch, and said, Hey, will you work with us to pass waivers so that if schools close, the schools can get lunch to kids however they need to, because school lunch is heavily regulated.
00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:03.920
Kate, as an example, you have to serve them in what's called a congregate setting, meaning a group setting.
00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.079
Well, that wasn't happening during the pandemic.
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:08.800
We were not in congregate settings.
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:12.079
And so, you know, they did that on and on and on.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.959
And then the hunt was on for more stories.
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:23.759
The airport executives, the school nurses, the pet retail stores, the grocery stores, the golf course owners.
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.680
And each story was just so amazingly compelling.
00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:31.680
And then as I kind of dug into it, I thought, all right, there's enough here to write a book.
00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:34.159
And if I had more time, I would have put in more stories.
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:43.519
At some point, you have to just kind of put it down and say, this is enough for now, and this is representative of what associations did, and then it turns into a book.
00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.600
I think that there's uh stories enough for there to be a part two.
00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.440
Um yeah.
00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:57.039
Because I think after this is published and people start reading, other people are gonna come to you with their stories and they're gonna trust you with them.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:03.840
And so I that's that's what I foresee is that there's gonna be a part two of this because there's more, there's more to tell.
00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:08.879
Kate, there have been many a night when I said to my husband, I don't need to do this again.
00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:09.440
Really?
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:10.720
You're like one and done.
00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:11.519
That's it.
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:12.159
Yeah.
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.279
So, Kate, the thing is there's two parts to this.
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:20.080
One, when you're working raising a family, you have to squeeze in the author part.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.399
You know that you're a podcaster and you do all these other things.
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:23.519
You have to squeeze it in.
00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:28.639
But the other thing is that's a big responsibility to tell someone else a story.
00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:29.200
It is.
00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:40.320
So you double, triple, quadruple check, and then you work, you collaborate with the people that you've interviewed to make sure that it's accurate, that it really captures the essence of the association.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.200
It's a big responsibility, and I did not take that lightly.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:43.840
Yeah.
00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:52.799
I told you very transparently before we hit record that I was so nervous about this this episode because I do I admire you so much, Joanna.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:10:01.200
You are you are such a thought leader, and you you're you're just amazing in every way.
00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:04.879
And I wanted to be sure to do your story justice.
00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:11.279
And so I I understand that being a container for other people's stories comes with responsibility.
00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:11.679
Yeah.
00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:18.080
To deliver it in a in a way that that does the the storyteller justice.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:21.759
So I fully, I I absolutely get it.
00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:32.799
Going back to the the premise of this book, and we said that so many of what these association professionals were doing was going unnoticed.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.600
What was happening and and why was this under the radar?
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.159
Why didn't we know that that this was happening?
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:43.039
I think, Kate, that what was happening was they were in the thick of it.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.080
When you're in the thick of it, you don't think to tell the story.
00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.360
And I think associations are accustomed to doing.
00:10:49.679 --> 00:11:00.080
They're accustomed to putting on the conference, they're accustomed to publishing whatever, the magazine or the book, they're accustomed to advocating for a specific piece of legislation.
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.120
The end result is what they promote.
00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:03.840
Right.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.600
The process of getting there is largely hidden.
00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:09.519
So I think that's one reason, right?
00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:16.000
So like if they reimagine their conference, they don't talk about how they reimagine the conference and the blood, sweat, and tears that went into it.
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:21.200
But I think the other thing is that associations often it's all about their members.
00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.679
So they're talking about their members, not about themselves.
00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:41.279
And then I think the third reason is that associations, and I think maybe not just associations, but all of us, I think once the vaccine started rolling out and once we started going back in person, I think we were so eager to leave the pandemic that we said, oh, thank God.
00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:47.600
And we shoved those stories into a drawer and we said, okay, now things can go back to normal.
00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:48.799
Now I can see my team.
00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:49.759
Now I can do whatever.
00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:56.960
And Kate, I'll tell you, there were, there were, you know, execs that I interviewed who initially said, Twanna, I don't know.
00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.279
I don't know what we did during the pandemic.
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:00.799
I don't think we did that much.
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:05.519
And I pressed enough, and then the stories came, right?
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:12.799
And I remember there was one one association that I interviewed for weeks afterwards, they'd say, Oh, and one more thing, and one more thing.
00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.279
So you could tell that kind of the process of unlocking the story did something, right?
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.120
They started remembering all the work that they did.
00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:26.240
And then 100 Kate, every single one of them within about a week would say, I'm proud.
00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:31.519
Because they hadn't thought about just the gravity and the scale of what they had done.
00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:41.120
So hopefully by reading the story, they can step back and say, We did good work, we saved an industry, we like protected our members, we did all this great stuff.
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:47.360
I mean, you said at association professionals are just they're they're doers and they get in there and and they they do it.
00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:51.200
And I think that's a that's true in a lot of other industries too.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:13:03.600
Like you we are faced with this unprecedented time, and it it is a call to leadership, it is a call to show up and do something we might not be comfortable with, or but we're just getting through.
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:12.240
So, you know, to your point, to take the time and push pause and reflect and show appreciation to what was done.
00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:17.120
When COVID hit, we there was no playbook.
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.080
Everyone was just making it up as we were going along.
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:29.120
Associations, I think, were asked suddenly to make decisions that could affect entire professions, industries.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:32.240
And there's a, as I said, there's a lot of leadership in that.
00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:38.960
What did you learn about leadership from these organizations that stepped up in those moments?
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:40.879
I'll tell you one story.
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.519
It's the American Association of Airport Executives.
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.879
Todd Haupley is the CEO, and he was the CEO during the pandemic.
00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:50.080
Now, AAAE is a 501 C6.
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.200
And C6 organizations, Kate, were not eligible for PPP money.
00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:55.840
Mm-hmm.
00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:04.320
Because Congress said, oh, these are organizations that lobby or might lobby, and there's we don't want to be giving them, you know, money so that they can lobby.
00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:17.120
But what they didn't realize is they were, they were really locking out of PPP money, these what they're called business leagues or professional associations that do amazing work, that like develop standards, train hold professions, et cetera.
00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:23.600
So AAAE cut staff and reduced the salaries of the people who remained.
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:30.159
And yet they were being asked to do much more for their members because they represent the people who run the airports.
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:42.320
AAAE, in conjunction with some other associations, effectively lobbied Congress within weeks of the pandemic to provide relief to the airlines and the airports.
00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:47.360
Even though, Kate, air traffic dropped by 95%.
00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:54.879
So they kept the air, that money kept the airlines and the airports afloat.
00:14:55.200 --> 00:15:01.679
And it was really the advocacy of AAAE and some other associations that really allowed that to happen.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:15.279
But AAAE on its own had to deal with cuts to staff, staff that are overworked, with with members who are wondering what's going to happen to my industry when 95% of passengers are gone.
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:20.720
So for me, the lesson in leadership was there, there was you endure.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:22.159
You have no choice.
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.279
You have to lead.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:27.919
Even when you're hurting, even when you're down, you have to do it.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:39.679
Mary Greeley from the Healthcare Leadership Council, she said, there's a corner of my condo that I still can't go near because I spent so many hours there that it just brings back all those memories.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:45.519
So you so there's a physical and mental toll that even the associations execs, right?
00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:47.440
That they that they endured.
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:49.759
So leadership was amazing.
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:59.919
And these are these are leaders who led their teams, led the members, and worked collaboratively with their with their boards to step up.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:30.080
And you're talking about like split decisions, like the the turnaround time between these decisions that you're saying, or like immediately, you know, they went to top for the children with with lunches and and in the even the example that that you just gave, there was no time to sit back and and Wade Tetsuka, my boss, calls this acting like a kindergartner, where you just step in and you go because there is no roadmap of what is acceptable, what isn't.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.080
And so you just have to act.
00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:40.399
What do you think would have happened to our our airlines if if they hadn't stepped in and taken action there?
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.639
So, you know, let's take the airlines again.
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:53.440
If Congress hadn't acted fast, they would have laid off so many people because the PPP money wasn't available quickly, right?
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:55.440
So they would have laid off people.
00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.080
We would have had lots of people who were suffering.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:16:59.360
Who knows what would have happened?
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:04.319
Later on, there was legislation that said, you know, you can't kick people out of their apartments and their homes, etc.
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.960
The other thing that happens is when systems close down, it actually costs a lot of money to bring them back online.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:18.480
So I have a story in the book about a convention center in Amsterdam that closed down for several years.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:27.680
And when they literally like brought it back online, so many of the systems basically just weren't working anymore because disuse had crept in.
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:41.039
So one of the things that happened with the airlines and the airports is by literally keeping the lights on, you allowed those systems to remain online and be ready for when we became post-pandemic.
00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:53.680
Something that I'm hearing in these stories is that there was huge impact happening without a lot of attention being paid to who was actually making it happen.
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.440
It's just a go, go, go.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.160
It's a it's a it's an action, it's a reaction.
00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:05.039
I'm I'm fascinated by the idea that a lot of this important work is is happening quietly.
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:13.839
I've had so many guests on Coffee Talk that have told similar stories of people that they know that impacted them and taught them about leadership.
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.799
This is a general question about associations.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:21.599
Has associations have historically been too quiet about their impact?
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:22.880
You know, that's a good question.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.039
I don't know that I'm the best person to answer that.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:31.680
I think that there is probably an inclination on the part of the CEOs to not brag, right?
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:33.119
Because they're servant leaders.
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.160
They're there because they care about the mission, the profession, et cetera.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:37.279
So I think there's that.
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.720
I think there's also an inclination to put the members out in front.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:48.960
But I think the other thing is I think associations often are talk insiders because that's who they know.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:56.319
So I think that it's harder to reach a broader audience because you don't normally reach a broader audience, and you think, will they be interested?
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.240
So I think there's some of that.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:05.599
I I think, you know, for my association clients that say, you know, we really need to reach a broader audience, that's actually harder than it looks.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:11.119
So with this book, for example, I'm hoping that non-association people read it, but who knows?
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.440
The people I know are all in association.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:24.880
So maybe to all the people listening to this podcast, give it to a non-association person so that they can understand what an association really is and what it's capable of and what they did during the pandemic.
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:47.279
Well, you just mentioned the value that associations put on their members, and we talk a lot about the value of membership, but your I think your book reveals another kind of value there, and that's the value that an association actually creates for an entire profession or an entire industry, including people that may never become members.
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.359
Like lots of people are benefiting even from that.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.640
100%.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.559
I mean, Kate, there's the story of the American Counseling Association.
00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.720
Now, counseling, if you think about it, is in person, right?
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:01.920
You go see your counselor.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:09.599
And at the start of the pandemic, the American Counseling Association said, God, our members won't be able to see their clients.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:20.240
And so what they did is they partnered with an online provider to provide training to counselors to be able to provide counseling sessions over Zoom.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:26.160
And they made this training free to everyone, including non-members.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:32.880
So that's like I think they trained something like 50,000 counselors just in July alone of 2020.
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:34.640
So like pretty striking.
00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:44.559
But if you think about, I don't know, the pet advocacy network that really, you know, they made sure that pet retail stores stayed open.
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:53.839
By making sure that the pet retail stores stayed open, that they were considered essential, they made sure that the growers and the breeders could stay in business.
00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:54.319
Yeah.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:21:00.960
Because if all those outlets closed, then they wouldn't have had a place to, you know, kind of do their business.
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:03.359
So the ripple effect is really great.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:17.200
And those, that groomer, that that, you know, that breeder, they probably have no idea that there was this organization in the case of Pet Advocacy Network, a coalition of these trade associations really working for the entire industry.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.160
Or like, I don't know, you take the Illinois Principals Association.
00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:28.079
I mean, they were advocating for schools period and teachers, period, not just principals, right?
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:32.160
That they were really trying to keep schools and education working.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:42.079
My my mind is going a million different directions and in how these initiatives have impacted me personally and my family.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:44.240
And I'm not a member of these associations.
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.920
And and I I was impacted by by that change.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:54.799
So this is an identified value that that we've gave we've given to these initiatives.
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.680
How how should that change the way that associations are showing up and talks?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.440
Talking about their added value.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.160
Let me tell you another story and then I'll get to that question.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:15.519
So the National Association of School Psychologists, among all the things that they did, one of them was they said, Oh God, what's going to happen to the professional pipeline?
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:19.599
Because what happens is you have to have a master's degree to be a school psychologist.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.279
And you need 1,200 hours in the classroom.
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:33.279
Okay, if they couldn't get those hours in the classroom, say for a year or two, five years from now, you're going to have this problem, right?
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.960
Because whatever.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:36.640
There's all of a sudden there's going to be a gap.
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.400
There's going to be a gap where we're just, we're just, we're just missing school psychologists.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.640
So think about that impact and think about how they were thinking ahead.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:50.000
They weren't just thinking about this cohort of students in 2020 and 2021.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:55.279
They were thinking about the impact to the schools and the students many years down the road.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.039
So how do you, and you know, parents have no idea.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.839
Someone was looking out for their kids' mental health.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:02.319
Yeah.
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:04.480
So how do you communicate that?
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.519
I think, Kate, it's stories, right?
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:18.960
I think that by thinking about their value in a way that's accessible, that they they maybe tell a better story or a bigger story.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:25.839
One of the things that I tell my clients these days, Kate, is don't just talk to yourselves with your website and with your social media.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:33.039
I'm encouraging all my clients these days to have an about the profession or about the industry or learn about X on their website.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:35.599
And often they'll say, but we don't have that content.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:42.960
And we'll say, go develop it, or we'll work with you to develop it because it's so important to tell the story.
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:56.319
And in fact, Kate, this is not related to the book, but when we're working on a website redesign, we will often interview members and they'll almost all of them will say, our story is not being told at all, or it's not being told well.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.799
So they're hungry for their stories to be told.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:03.759
And I think that's a it's a call to arms, if you think, right?
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.400
To tell the story of the profession and the association is a big part of that story.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.240
Joanna, we're both marketers.
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:18.319
My marketing brain is coming up with a thousand different marketing strategies for them right now and and how to get this out in different ways.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:24.400
And because it it is such an added value and one that, and and I work with associations.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:26.559
I had no idea this was going on.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:27.440
Yes.
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:37.039
And so creating a a world, creating a space to you're ushering in a a change with your with your book and and getting these stories out.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:43.200
Every every association website should have a tab that says, here's what we did during the pandemic.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.279
You know, just I think so, yeah.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.160
Like, but Kate, I think there's another aspect of this.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.960
I think we all need to be better storytellers.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:57.279
I had to learn how to write these stories, and I'll tell you, Kate, the first versions were terrible.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.319
I mean terrible.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:04.799
They were clinical, they didn't have enough heart, they didn't have enough backup information, they weren't well researched.
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.240
They were kind of based on the interviews, but they had to be bigger than that.
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.640
So it had to be that I understood better.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:21.200
Obviously, I'm not an expert, but I had to understand better what was happening in schools in order to tell the story of the school nurses and the principals and the teachers and the school psychologists.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:28.480
So I think that we all have to be better at telling the story so that people listen to them, read them and say, oh wow, that's really interesting.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.640
It can't be clinical, it can't be numbers, it has to be personal.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:33.599
Personal.
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:34.079
Yeah.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:39.759
Real connection happens in storytelling that moves beyond just creating community.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.279
It moves into a realm of connection and and identity.
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.000
Yes.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.160
And there's a lot of power in that.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:52.079
And and if I can be so bold to say that could create a member for life with that.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:52.559
Yeah.
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:53.039
Yeah.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:53.759
Yeah.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:03.119
We just with that that identity of of, you know, you you did something and and I appreciate you, respect you, see you for it.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:10.880
Now that we're several years removed from the pandemic, anybody that says that we return to normal is is nuts.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:12.799
We have we have not returned to normal.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:23.279
But now that we're several years removed from the pandemic, have you seen that willingness to experiment, that same level of leadership come forward?
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.759
Or have you noticed a pattern of slipping back into older habits?
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.599
That might be a good question.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:29.920
Yeah.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:30.960
I've seen both.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:37.039
I've seen some organizations that say, oh, thank God we're back to normal, whatever normal is.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:46.960
And I think that most organizations have not said, what did we learn from the pandemic and what lessons should endure?
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:56.319
What did we learn about member engagement and about connection that we had to work really hard to do that should endure today?
00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:02.240
To be honest, I go to the conferences and I think, wow, this looks exactly like a conference from 2019.
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:18.079
And I think that's okay, but we learned an awful lot about how to create sessions that are more interesting and how to create more one-to-one interactions during the pandemic because we were so worried that they wouldn't go to a virtual conference or that they would click away.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:19.440
So that's one thing.
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:25.599
I think the second thing is that there are definitely some organizations that I've seen do really bold things.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:34.160
I have seen some boards, Kate, that said we are complete, we are, we are changed as a result of the pandemic.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:36.400
Let's re-examine everything.
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.359
The Catholic Health Association board said that.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:40.799
They said, let's re-examine everything.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.880
Do we even need an annual conference?
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:46.000
How often should we hold it and what format should it take?
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.559
To even ask that question is real leadership.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:56.559
But I'll tell you, Kate, there's one more thing, and that is I think during the pandemic, there was a real sense of urgency to the decision making.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:09.519
I personally think that between what's happening economically, politically, and with AI, I think this is just as life and death for associations as it was in 2020, but we're not acting like it.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:10.000
I agree.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.920
And I think we need to.
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:16.559
That um as marketers, we know that our our marketing playbook was burned.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:22.240
I can talk about a world that I know very well in marketing, and we we can't ever go back.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.000
And everything has changed.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:38.000
And it it is the organizations, associations or not, if I can speak a little bit more broadly, that are willing to change and pivot and show up, be different than before, that are going to see success.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.599
I think the pandemic did a lot for us as humanity.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:44.319
It it reconnected us to each other.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.359
It showed us that we need each other, actually.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:47.920
Yeah.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:48.400
Yeah.
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.720
Even in this age of AI when advances are night and day.
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:58.880
I wake up in the morning to, you know, I have an agent that goes out and collects uh AI news from the day I wake up in the morning.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:05.119
And like these the advances in the last two weeks alone are mind-boggling.
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.039
And you have to keep up.
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.200
And you have to I don't know that it's possible to keep up, though, Kate.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.359
So I think you just have to figure out what your own plan needs to be.
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:16.960
There has to be a plan, though.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:22.319
There has to be an open growth mindset around it and not being the way that we were.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.880
And I know that that's a big call to action.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.880
Um, and there are lots of resources for what that actually looks like in business, but it is a completely different world.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.799
And I know that you agree with me on that one.
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.599
Kate, can I mention one thing that surprised me from these interviews?
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:43.359
It was the idea that some industries or professions actually thrived during the pandemic.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:48.799
Now, some professions were just very, very damaged and hurt, like nursing, for example.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.119
It was so hard, so many nurses left.
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:58.319
But some industries, and this is that they'll they'll never celebrate this because who wants to say we thrived during the pandemic?
00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:00.000
It feels, you know, terrible.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.200
But like the golf industry thrived.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:14.960
Kate, after Tiger Woods, there was all this building, and then there was overbuilding, and golf courses started closing, and the number of people playing golf every year was on the decline.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:19.279
And then the pandemic hit, and governors were closing golf courses.
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.880
They were saying not essential, golf courses are on the sin list, etc.
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:32.720
The National Golf Course Owners Association and the American Golf Industry Coalition said, wait, wait, wait, please give, please keep golf courses open.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.400
People can be outside, they can distance while they play golf, and it's important for mental health.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:44.480
So by May of 2020, thanks to the advocacy of AGIC and NGCOA, every golf course was open.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:46.319
The governors all said yes, you can open.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:47.599
There were a few exceptions.
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:49.039
So here's what happened.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.680
Golf thrived during the pandemic.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.400
The number of golfers actually went up.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.160
And then I talked to Jay Karen, who said, Joanna, we held our breath.
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.000
What's going to happen post-pandemic?
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:01.759
The numbers didn't go down.
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:03.519
The numbers kept going up.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:08.000
And so Jay said it was so exciting for us because we got to introduce more people.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:09.759
They call it the goodness of golf.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:13.039
And so you kind of, it's a mixed message, right?
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:14.720
Because this was a terrible time.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.519
But because golf courses were allowed to open early, they actually thrived.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:23.920
And when people got introduced to golf, they stayed with golf.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:29.599
So there's actually those stories of, Kate, I'm calling it adversarial growth.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:34.079
That during a really difficult time, they somehow found their lane.
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:39.680
And some of it is pure luck and some of it is very strategic, but they found a way to thrive.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:47.119
So ISPOR, the Professional Society for Health Economics and Outcomes Research, vaccines had their moment, right?
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:48.400
During the pandemic.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:55.119
And so now the HEOR folks who were sort of relegated to the background had their day.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:32:04.880
So there are certain professions, infection preventionists who knew what an IP is, but all of a sudden we think about infection control and transmission.
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:10.559
So I think that there's mixed outcomes that came as a result of the pandemic.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.440
And what you saw in the book is different ways that the organizations really kind of handled it.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:21.680
And in some cases, there were actually really strategic opportunities that they could hold on to or grab onto.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:34.240
So we've spent time talking about these organizations and what they did and how they showed up in this truly extraordinary moment in our timeline.
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:38.400
I'm curious about what this process actually did for you.
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:43.039
So I want to turn the interview around on to you a little bit personally.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:57.920
After interviewing and researching these 24 stories, these organizations, did writing this book change the way that you think about associations, the way that you view them?
00:32:58.720 --> 00:32:59.519
Kate, 100%.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.079
I mean, nothing but admiration.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:06.799
I already knew I admired these associations and admired these leaders.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:18.400
But to dig deep into what they did, the hours they worked, the connections, really kind of the unfailing love for the professions and their members.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.119
I mean, it's really, really very noteworthy.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.079
So that that was really, really important.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:30.799
And it just made me more than ever just really proud that I work with these folks.
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:35.680
But Kate, there's another thing that happened that I finally accepted.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:41.519
I finally have stepped into I'm a storyteller.
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.119
I was reluctant to say that before.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:51.279
And then when I when I got the book in print, Kate, I finally said, I'm a storyteller.
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:53.359
And it really brought tears to my eyes.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.720
Like, what an honor.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.279
But it took a long time to get there.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.440
I I understand.
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:01.599
I absolutely understand.
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:03.839
It is being a storyteller.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.920
And I said it a minute, a minute ago.
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:08.159
I call myself a container of stories.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.039
I hold these stories very close to me.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:12.000
They impact me.
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.360
They change the way that I move throughout my day.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.679
They change the way that I move throughout my career.
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:19.840
They change the way that I interact with people.
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:26.400
And to be called to be a storyteller and to be a holder of these stories.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.280
I mean, you, Joanna, you put people at ease.
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.920
People trust you right from the beginning.
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.239
And that is that's part of it.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:44.719
That's part of being a storyteller because there has to be that sense of trust and ease in opening up and asking sometimes asking hard questions.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.840
I sometimes ask questions and people are like, whoa, we're going deep.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:48.480
I'm like, yeah.
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:49.360
Right, right.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:49.760
Yeah.
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:50.239
Right.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.880
And there has to be that is a special person that that is called to that.
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.000
And you definitely are.
00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:00.480
So I'm glad you stepped into your power of being a storyteller of all.
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:02.639
I've changed my whole introduction.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.800
You know, when I meet someone, storyteller is now part of the introduction.
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:07.920
I love it.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:19.599
If someone finishes when it mattered most and remembers only one thing, if there's one big thing, what do you hope stays with them and changes them?
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:22.400
Can it be two things?
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:23.119
Sure.
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:23.679
Okay.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:25.519
You're chief troublemaker.
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:26.719
Right on your own.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:31.039
There's a story in the book about the Count the Calfth Association.
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.920
And Brian Reardon was the person I interviewed.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:35.599
He's the VP of communications.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:41.519
And he said that the staff was very, very caring of the members, and they kept saying, What more can we do?
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:43.519
But Sister Mary had a different question.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.760
Sister Mary is the president of CHA.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.320
She said, What are we called to do?
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.880
And I, God, just just even saying that gives me chills, Kate.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:54.239
What are we called to do?
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:58.320
So I think that suffuses the entire book.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.440
What are we called to do as leaders?
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:09.599
And what what did these leaders and what these these chief staff execs and board members feel called to do for their communities?
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:16.000
I think it's such a wonderful way to think about your responsibility to your staff, to your members, to your community.
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:18.159
So that's for me, that's one thing.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:48.800
And then I guess the second thing is I hope that people realize just how much associations really impact so many parts of our lives and how we should really, instead of thinking, I don't, I don't attend the conference, so I shouldn't join or I don't shouldn't renew, that they should really dig deep and see which organizations are doing good work that I should support, even if I don't attend every course or attend every conference.
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:54.880
What work should I support and affiliate with so that we are stronger?
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:57.679
So that that's I think my message.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:58.719
That's a good one.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:00.320
One more question for you.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.480
As I said in my introduction of you, you've spent your career challenging assumptions, which is so needed.
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.880
We don't need a bunch of yes mans in the room.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:12.159
We need people that challenge us and make us think differently.
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:18.000
What's something through this process that you have changed your own mind about?
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:20.000
Two things.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:29.599
I mean, and it's very personal, and that is that sometimes you have a notion of who you are, and it turns out that you can be somebody else.
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:34.559
And I think at any age, you can decide to do something else and change your identity.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:39.039
And so for me, I now have author, and that's really big for me.
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:41.440
And I never thought that I could step into that.
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:50.239
So I I think the the thing that I've learned is that no matter who you are, and no matter how old you are and what you do, you can step into something different.
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:52.239
That's beautiful, Joanna.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.679
That's really beautiful.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.519
Well, tell me about the book.
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:56.639
When is it coming out?
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.280
So October 8th, you can buy it on Kindle.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.840
It's actually 99 cents for three days.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:03.360
So like buy your copy.
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:05.920
You can also get a hard copy and a paperback.
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:15.760
I I can't wait to dig into this book more and uh become a container for these stories and let them change me and impact me in the way that I move around.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.519
Joanna, thank you.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:20.079
I love conversations like this.
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:26.320
They make me, they make us look differently at something that maybe we thought we already understood.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:31.360
They give us a different perspective, knowledge and understanding of something that was going on that we had no idea.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:50.320
There are associations even now doing really incredibly important work, like during the pandemic, now protecting professions, helping industries to survive and thrive, making decisions when there isn't a playbook, just moving forward and acting.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:59.199
I think a big takeaway for me in this is that impact doesn't always happen loudly.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:00.239
Yes.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:11.679
Sometimes it's just being willing to step up bravely, ask questions, spring into action, and you know, do what needs to be done and move on.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:12.159
Yep.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:16.320
Taking a line from your playbook maybe uh causing a little trouble along the way.
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:17.199
All right.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:17.760
Yeah.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:19.840
Joanna, thank you so much for joining me.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:25.440
I will be putting links to Joanna's book and uh and also to her LinkedIn in the show notes.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:28.559
Again, thank you for joining me and to everyone listening.
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:30.320
We'll see you next time on Coffee Talk.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.519
Kate, thank you so much.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:33.039
What an honor for me to be on the show.
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:33.360
Thank you.
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:34.639
What a joy to have you here.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:36.079
See you next time.
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.519
Thank you for joining us today on Coffee Talk.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:46.719
A special thanks to my guests for sharing their story and to you, the listener, for being a part of this conversation.
00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:52.000
If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe so you never miss a Monday morning chat.
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.280
Until next time, I'm Kate Coffee Bacon, and this has been Coffee Talk.
