2: Kevin

Sam Finney: Welcome to Closing Thoughts, a podcast about how to live life well. Inspired by tragedy, each episode captures lessons, reflections, and hard-earned wisdom meant to be passed on to my kids and anyone else who wants to listen. Each guest is asked, if you only had five minutes to pass along how to live life well, what would you say? From there, the discussion flows. All right, so we're here with Kev today, his final five minute speech. One thing that I did just wanna put out there, obviously we're gonna publish these, and there a quote I recently heard ⁓ about a oftentimes it's a man who's in the process of changing, right? So these speeches, they're just a snapshot time, ⁓ and I think any of us could spend. an eternity trying to write it and get it perfect, but here's what Kev's got for us today. I'll turn it over to you, Kev.
Kevin Epp: appreciate it goes saying when you asked me to do this you were hey Kev you know I said I'd be short and then you're like Kev you know don't make it real like Kurt and in classic Kev I think I'm gonna take the entire five minutes if not a little more I just like like a vacuum I filled this whole thing but ⁓ yeah bunch of random thoughts piece together And it was cool writing it, so we'll see how it goes. alrighty, I'll start reading. Okay. I have a store within driving distance, I own a car, I have running water and a refrigerator. There's hundreds of millions of people like me and it's sad if any of us try to say life is tough. The way you spend your time is how you spend your life. You'll spend the most amount of time with your spouse. I consider my greatest superpower to be my relationship with my wife. I hope someday everyone can experience the happiness I get every day from being around. I feel like most everything I've said I'd never do, I end up doing. When I was younger, I judged people for what they're into, how they dress, what stresses them out, et cetera. We all have that in us, passively judging, trying to kill that part of you. And you'll see actually I'm gonna contradict myself here later on. With a straight face, tell me how alcohol has improved your life. Without a doubt, Life is a competition. It is a competition to see who can take the most in stride. And someday, they'll replay your life in front of you and you'll shake your head at yourself at all the times you thought it would be something heavier than just that. Everyone has a price, whether that's reputation, ego, jealousy, money, whatever. Don't be so quick to judge what it takes another person to throw away their... Read a history book or two and you'll realize you, yes you, have the capability of monstrous things under the wrong circumstances in programming. It's in your DNA. That should humble you. Find the courage to ruthlessly divorce yourself from these people who all it takes is a little social capital, leverage, booze, money, physical pain to throw it all away. Harden yourself to never reach your own limit. Take ownership of everything you touch. It's stressful, it's freeing. It is your duty as an American to pay less in taxes. Travel as much as you possibly can. Stay in countries where people don't look like you. Be a foreigner. Consume the culture of wherever you go. Stay as long as you possibly can. It will change your life and give you more perspective than any mentor, book, or education can give you. Before you start making excuses, here are some organizations that can pay you. to travel and live abroad, if not teach you a foreign language. The Red Cross, Peace Corps, missions, Department of State, intelligence community, Department of Defense, the list goes on. I didn't say it would be sexy, it's worth it. On travel, if you can, live in a megalopolis at least once in your life. New York City, LA, Chicago, Singapore, Beijing, Seoul, London, anywhere. Then take a week or two and go to Alaska. You'll appreciate the public lands we have in America more. Some things are more important than money or comfortable living. Stop planning and take action. I'd estimate about seven out of 10 people want to sit in a corner and be told what to do. Rarely be wrong, get a decent paycheck, low stress. Some of them will tell you otherwise too, that they want responsibility, that leadership above them is doing the wrong things. They do things like give opinions with no recommendations, say they hate being told what to do. They give excuses for why it never worked out but would have under different circumstances that were of course out of their control. They commit, then they flake. I'm sure you know people like this close to you. These people suck. Look for the others who admit when they're wrong, who have changed their opinions and lifestyle in the past 10 years. You'll be more successful and happier living your life like that. Testosterone combined with groupthink can be an accelerant or a scary drug. Physical exertion, whether that's athletics or working out, has taught me lot of lessons I can't fit in here. A lot of fit people I talk to say the same. I'd suggest you do it daily. Social media grabs your attention and keeps it. You have the urge to check it and be entertained when you have even a few seconds of reprieve. They'll only get better at doing this to us too. I consider it more a form of hypnosis than anything. About a hundred years ago, unless you were a Luddite or a conspiracy theorist, you embraced technology like cars, planes, new medicine, et cetera, and you would consider it a benefit for society. Nowadays, you can talk to almost anybody about social media or developments in AI, and the conversation quickly devolves into apprehension or alarm. I think there's something to be said for that. The hubris of man knows no bounds. Every generation, we think we're so sure how the universe works. It's in our nature to try to make patterns of it. I'd say ask more questions of things and sit in awe of nature rather than try to make sense of it all. Crushing yourself day in day out is a form of self care. It comes in the form of delayed gratification. Most people don't have a stomach for this. It's never been easier to be successful. And lastly, my favorite one here. One of the coolest natural phenomena is the migration of monarch butterflies to Mexico. Over the course of several generations, they fly 3,000 miles to the exact same place. That first generation of butterflies has no idea why they have the urge to fly south. The subsequent generations have no idea where they've come from or where they're going either. And so it goes. Even when the next generation reaches Mexico, they have no idea why they're there or where they've come from, but they arrive regardless. The point getting at is this. There is no objective purpose to life as we know it. but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Do what feels right to you and is in your personality and nature. Be yourself. Anything else would be like flying against the flock and damn anybody who judges you for it because as it said, those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter. time.
Sam Finney: There we go, Kev. You filled all five minutes and then a little bit, I think.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, what did I do? What did I do it in? I probably like 530, I don't know, six minutes. Shit.
Sam Finney: ⁓ Yeah, I think it was just under six. Lot to unpack. ⁓ Dude, so I tell you what, I wanna start at the top here. And I'm trying to get down to the bottom of the first sentence. So I have no suffering in my life. So Kev, not to toot your own horn here. I'll your horn for you, I guess I'll put it that way, right? I still remember,
Kevin Epp: Bro, yeah, you know me.
Sam Finney: when you're getting ready to go to ranger school, right? And your training regiment, and I don't know how much of this is fact or fiction, you can confirm or deny, all right? But your training regiment was to get with old Bill. Bill was riding his bike and you just told him to ride as fast as he could while you could still keep up until you started throwing up. And then you guys would turn around and you'd run all the way back, every day.
Kevin Epp: Much of that is legend. What is factual there, I don't just how legends are made, or random stories, I can't even call them legend. What actually occurred? Bill Epp would wake up with me ⁓ in summer, I was prepping for English and you remember that mindset, dude? You were this is everything in life. my God. ⁓ Anyway, yeah man, there was forest preserve like, a hundred yards from my home and it was a good like five mile, eight mile loop or something like that. And my dad would ride his bike next to me as I would run around the forest preserve. I imagine I like probably was dry heaving on some of them, but yeah, he would ride his bike next to me. as someone riding a bike next to you and your dad, knowing that you're training for something that you care about. he would be like, hey, you know, he'd pedal faster and be like, hey, you need to catch up or like, hey, you need to beat me to the top of this hill and stuff like that. So those are really fond memories. Yeah. Good times.
Sam Finney: Nice. No, that's awesome. So I think what I want to get down to is, I've known no suffering in my life. So I'm a philosophy guy, right? So words, in my opinion, mean things. I would say... I want to unpack that and try and figure out what you mean because doubtless, right, you've encountered a lot of things. mean, playing lacrosse in Mikey Stadium in January when the snow's coming down and it's like 10 degrees outside, like that is painful. That is suffering, just like Ranger school, just like the Q course was. So what do you mean by suffering in that first sentence there?
Kevin Epp: Yeah, I'll jump into it. like, ⁓ First off, well, man, there's so much there. I'm gonna try and keep it, but everything is relative, And the hardest thing that has happened to you ⁓ just that. It is the hardest thing that has happened to you. ⁓ like, you know, people say this, you see a baby crying, right? Cause it, whatever, like a little kid won't get his ice cream and he just loses his mind. And you can... As an adult who's mature, you can be like, that's kind of crazy, but that is probably the worst episode that has occurred to that child in a while if they're losing their minds. And what I'm saying is that is probably relative to us, think of something that would make you turn hysterical and burst into tears. That's what's occurring to that child. Now, taking it into something that's practical here. I traveled a lot in Asia, spent a lot of time in Asia. I think in a lot of our world now, we consume what I consider to be like this survivor bias type suffering where the people given these podcasts are like high level athletes, were people who were in the military like you and I, but we grew up in America, Like going in Asia, as an example, Nepal, 25 % of their GDP, comes from remittances of labor. One of their biggest exports is human labor. Bangladesh, same thing. Philippines, same thing. Where's the Bangladeshi worker who's making a podcast talking about how he gets through his day, I mean, it's a form of modern slavery. And so what I'm getting at is, dude, all we've had to do in our life, you, me, everyone else, has just performed. Go to Mikey's stadium, you brought the example. in January, it's super cold in Mikey Stadium. We just had to turn our brain off and do, right? But we knew we had shelter to go to, we knew we had food, we were at one of the most prestigious institutions in our nation. Like, dude, how easy is that? All I gotta do is work out and be cold. And so when I think about, I specifically put that as my first sentence, it like grounds the rest of me writing this. It's like, Dude, I have known no suffering. Like, I've lived air conditioned spaces and had food readily available to me 24 seven 365 since I grew up. And the only times I have gone through what I consider to be, you know, the hardest thing that I've been through. Dude, I signed up for the Army. I signed up for Army lacrosse. I signed up for whatever, Ranger school and all these other things that people want to consider are difficult to them. And sure those are difficult things, but you volunteered for it. Let's talk about the people who didn't volunteer to be born as a Bangladeshi and get picked up by their government and exported to Central Africa and work on these projects for years at a time. That's what happens, And so, I don't know, I'm just returning to that example, but I don't know. So that's what I mean. Yeah.
Sam Finney: Yeah, so to kind of bring it around then, that I've known no suffering in my life, is more of like a mental framework, like a way of thinking about things, because comparatively, or putting it into perspective, we've got it pretty damn good.
Kevin Epp: Yeah. Dude, yes, and I won't, I'll quit ranting and we can keep moving after this, but like, I imagine sometimes if I gave my iPhone to my grandfather, like post-World War II, right? And I'm like, hey, this is an iPhone, you know, I explain it to him, this is what the internet is, right? You give it to anybody even 100 years ago, they'd be like, wow, I will rule the world with this. And I'm like, ah, actually, like half of society is still gonna be helpless and think things are difficult. Right? And in the same way I like to frame that, like whenever I think I'm having a hard day, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, You know what mean? Like, it's so easy. I'm not suffering. I'm just a little stressed. Yeah.
Sam Finney: Yeah, so how do you take a step back? a lot of these things take practice to do, right? So I think one, from experience, right? And you get into it a little bit later, but like traveling and seeing the world, how that'll teach you a lot. But I think more concretely, what have trained yourself to do or what habits have you formed to continue to do that ⁓ and take step back, stop. regain the perspective, and then be able to continue on.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, like tactical level in the moment when you have, I mean, I'm gonna have to fight this my whole life, but keeping my mouth shut. Like ⁓ dude, if it's in person and I get stressed out in something, it's really just teaching myself to keep my mouth shut and kind of chew through it. Really, like is it? Like think, listen, think, pause, respond type thing. If we're talking about interpersonal things. If we're talking about stuff that's just unique to me, it's reminding myself of what I have and what is actually important. So let's just think about it now. I'm trying to build this little company and we're trying to cut out our little slice of the world. If something might compromise that or come across pretty difficult, whether that's money or something like that, I have to readily remind myself that like, no, man. I've had far less than this and I've been the happiest I've ever been, so I'll be just fine. So literally in the moment, it's reminding myself what I have. That could take a minute. Sometimes it only takes like a couple seconds, but I think right? being able to just tolerate anything and keep a baseline is your ability to just rapidly like mental frame out of these stresses. And there's infinite. infinite amounts of literature and podcasts to talk about mental framing out of stress, but for me it's just reminding myself like, dude, you are not suffering. Life is easy. I'm gonna eat food tonight and go work out tomorrow. You know? Yeah.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, and I, I mean, I would say, I would say to a certain degree, I would disagree with you. Not that, you know, I think that one, think like you talking about gratitude and the ability of being thankful things to be able to take you out of it is awesome. And this, we're actually recording this on July ⁓ 8th. Yesterday, July 7th was the anniversary Max's death. of the reasons I decided to start this, but man, that was not a fun day yesterday. I mean, even this morning was not a fun morning, right? And I think, I think even, even that comparison, even, you know, trying to reframe into being thankful, like there is undoubtedly, you know, it's suffering that accompanies this life. And I mean, you talked a lot about going to the East and talking about how life is suffering, right? And trying to. That was very different approach to the suffering, I think in one way, I love it, right? I've known no suffering in my life through just that reframing and that seeing outside of yourself and not being a victim, right? I think that's key to not being a victim. But in another way, I think it's pretty important to acknowledge that there is suffering in this world. And there are some tough times, right?
Kevin Epp: For sure. it's kind of like, think the human ability to understand stress is like, it's a vacuum and your brain will just fill it up. ⁓ let's think practical level. I have kids, you do, right? So think of this, I could tell you, hey, Kev, how was your day yesterday? I'm like, man, I was so busy. You you have no idea. I was just... completely tasked out to everything. I couldn't get anything done. And you're like, dude, Kev, I did twice as much work as you and I have kids. Do you know what it's like to have kids? And it's because literally my brain has not grasped that next level of being busy and having to, it's gonna sound corny, but just triage what is and is not important. And in the same sense, it's like, I said it, the most difficult thing you've ever been through in your life is only that. Just the most difficult thing in your life. and it could feel like a 10 out of 10 on the pain scale to you, but to someone who's experienced far more, like, dude, that's child's play. And so, yeah, I think we've talked about a lot, but I've known no suffering in my life. Sure, I've had things of which I perceive to be a 10 out of 10, but I try to mentally frame and think, wait a second, though that, let's say, was a perceived 10 out of 10 on how painful that was for my life, I do understand that other people have gone. far worse for far longer or for indefinite periods of time, like their entire life, far more difficult. And then kind of using that to understand like, okay, it's not just a vacuum of which it, you I just understand I'm like on the low end of the scale of real deal, like difficult life. Yeah.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, think that's a very, very good way to go about it. And I think as humans too, and I don't know if there's much research on this, but I think we tend to normalize things, right? So if you're living in Bangladesh, Like working 14 hours a day, seven days a week is normal, right? That's just life. If you're here in the States and the AC goes out, like that's not normal. You know, all of a sudden, all of a sudden things are bad. And so I think, I think it's very, very easy to just normalize. Like you were saying, the, what our life has been. and I think that probably speaks a lot to ⁓ you wrote about travel, right. And get out, getting out there and seeing the world is to see what, life's really like. can you share, you know, what a couple of, a couple of big lessons that you learned from travel.
Kevin Epp: Yeah. Yeah. So I said it, I'll say the first one was being appreciative of our public lands. And I even mention it because that's how much it had on me. And maybe I'm mentally primed to think of that because it's in there. So I'll touch on that first. So the first thing is, so I was in Singapore for six months and I was in Seoul for six months. And it's to fault of their own, like those things have been inhabited by cultures for a real long time, right? And the United States was, the, know, or rather North America, but then, you know, we took over and did what we did do it. What I'm getting at is this, is those places, they never had a chance to be like, hey, pause, what do we think about public lands and like going out and enjoying nature? They still have national parks, like Korea is absolutely gorgeous and they have mountains, but what they don't have is, as an example, Alaska. has Wrangell-Saint Elias. It's only town, has a town of 18 people in it and the rest of it's a mountain range larger than Switzerland, okay? And that's just like the bottom right blip of Alaska. And there's plenty throughout the lower 48 as well. But getting to the mountains changed my life. It gave me kind of a medium through which to like physically train, kind of like little objectives to keep me occupied. I got to know my wife. very well in the mountains going there. So it means a lot to me. And spending six months at a time in Singapore and Seoul made me recognize that if all we do is prioritize, as an example, Seoul, one of the tiger economies, Singapore, one of the tiger economies of Asia, prioritize pulling their people out of poverty for good reason. I don't blame it. But what they sacrificed is their lands. I'm not an expert on either, but I did live there for six months and I could see what I could see. And I was like, man, I'm so grateful for what we have in the United States. We're not perfect. But one of them was like, thank God, thank God we set aside our public land so that people could go and just, know, enjoy fresh air and nature. ⁓ ⁓ corny, but to anybody who knows, and it means a lot to them, they understand what I'm thing I'd say is, so. Kind of goes hand in hand, but we have it so good in the United States. You drive Taipei in Taiwan is the same way. It is just towers of human beings living on top of each other. Seoul, you drive throughout Korea, you will just see towers of humans living on top of each other in generational apartments. That's just another thing that opened my eyes with travel. Again, it's not. from a superiority type thing in the United States or some like ugly American type thing. It was just from an abundance of like, ⁓ now consciously understanding how good we have it, right? Back to the first sense, I have known no suffering in my life. Like I have the opportunity to move wherever I'd want to in the United States ⁓ there's plenty of space for it and there's so much opportunity. I mean, in Korea, there's a, you know, the culture's in it and again, I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on it, but like, man, they are just like competing, hardcore, huge status, you know, to try and get jobs and just get like, in these ⁓ And it's not for me, it's for other people. ⁓ that's the other thing I got out of traveling is just like, man, the opportunity I have in the United States and how privileged I am here, you know, I will never take it for granted. I mean, I'm sure I do still, but to not, not to the degree prior.
Sam Finney: Gotcha. No, I appreciate it, Kev. I think I'll probably jump from there. I'll jump back to something else that caught my attention, which is, you know, talking about taking action. You had a paragraph on there to take action and then also, you know, it kind of reminded me of trying to avoid like the victim attitude. And you even mentioned it in a different spot. You know, I'm not a victim. What do you see? ⁓ you know, I think a lot of people, ⁓ you mentioned, are afraid of taking action. Like, what's the what's the key there for you? What's helped you take action rather than, ⁓ know, sitting back?
Kevin Epp: First off, I haven't accomplished really anything other than being really happy in life. Like I am very happy in July 8th, 2025. So, so far as like from a monetary accomplishment or reputation or anything like that, I really haven't done anything. So I'm not speaking to that. I'm just talking about like being happy and fulfilled. I think my cup's very full in that end. I want to caveat with that is like I'm not some big time CEO with some tremendous amount of like, take action, this is what it takes. So I wanna start with that. But for me, dude, I feel like, so when I was a little kid, you know, I grew up in like upper middle class, white picket fence America, Naperville, Illinois, man. If you know it, you know it, right? You it, you hate it. And in there's lot of successful people. ⁓ And I never up to ⁓ like, any the parents or people who had a lot of money or had cool jobs and things like that always went right over my head. I only ever cared about like, dude, that guy knows how to build a house, right? That guy knows how to build a bridge. Like those are that you can feel with your hands and do with your hands. And of course the military, like any other upper middle class white picket fence America, like super patriotic. So I'm getting to my point here is. All I ever, or not all I ever want to do, but when I joined the military, I always had an inkling to do it, and then when I did it, I went bore into it. After out after these past 10 years, I feel like I'm just playing with funny money now. The type of person that I respected and the type of person I wanted to be, I felt like I was able to do those things in the military. now it's as if I... and I'm not full of myself by any means, I'm not saying that, but there's a lot to be said for self-confidence. And I got a lot out of self-confidence of accomplishing just the small little bread crumbs that the military would give you. did a lot for me. And so the rest of my life, once I got out, the rest of my life I'm like, well, know, kid Kev, man, I everything that little kid Kev would wanna do, right? So now it's like, man, you're just ⁓ you know, I'm It's just funny money now. What am I gonna do? Just try and be happy? I have nothing to prove to myself. And so I think it's also, maybe someone could be said, oh, you might lose your edge, or might not be so motivated. Whatever, man, again, I'm not talking about being successful in business or education or anything. I'm just talking about simply being a really fulfilled, happy person. I've never been happier in my life. And kind of working. in the various things in the military for a decade and just like having a lot of self-confidence after that, I don't know. It's the best way to put it is like, how do you take action? God, dude, this is the circuitous way, but how do I take action? It's so easy, like this doesn't even matter. What am I gonna do? Like I'm a property manager, let's say, right? I'm a property manager. Does this actually matter? Sure, like safety and laws, got it. Okay, cool, check, done. But when we're talking about like, should I actually get stressed out about this or let this affect my life? No, dude. Like it's so easy now because I've already been the person I wanted to be. You I accomplished so much that little Kev ever dreamed of doing. Now it's just like trying to maximize happiness, take as much in stride as possible, if that makes sense.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, I think so. I think one thing that stuck out to me, ⁓ is like the confidence. And I think even, I honestly, probably the way that you get that confidence to begin with is you just go do it, right? Like the seven out of 10 people wanting to sit in the corner. I think that's just hubris, kind of like you get to later on, right? Not wanting to look a fool. not want to look like you don't know what's going on or that you're making a bad decision and you know the failing forward I heard that the other day and I hadn't heard that before you familiar with that term Kev failing forward
Kevin Epp: Hit me. Hit me dude, I love that. What is this?
Sam Finney: ⁓ and I mean, basically, right. It's like. how you think of failure to, you when you fail learning from it, right. And moving forward with it. and I think a lot of, a lot of the, you know, the seven out of 10 people who wait, who want to sit in the corner. I think it's very, very impactful and honestly kind of like one of those decisions that over time impacts your character. So I think for you, and I mean, I even heard about it a little bit when you're like, hey, I did everything that young Kev would have wanted to do in the military. But I mean, I think that whole time, you were choosing, you were choosing to go out there and do something where you might've failed. And I'm sure you did fail more than a few times, right? And I think that the more, right, and I'm a firm believer in this, that like the decisions we make on a daily basis, even the micro decisions,
Kevin Epp: for sure. Yeah.
Sam Finney: you know, impact our character. And if you continually make the decision to go out there and do something, regardless of whether you fail or not, you know, to go learn from it or succeed, then that's just gonna become ⁓ part of who you are, right?
Kevin Epp: Dude, I love that mental frame of like, it's not a failure, it's a learning opportunity. You know, it's said so much, but brass tacks if you actually incorporate that. I mean, I did it yesterday. I finished up a workout and I was laying down and I was already thinking about, again, just the small little things that stress you out throughout the day. For me, it was just some business stuff. And I literally was laying there and I was like, no, I am glad this happened. I have learned from, mean, literally in the moment, physically, you know, forcing myself to be like, no, this is a good thing. Also, it has occurred. If something has occurred, like you don't get it, you're like, it doesn't happen, dude. So now you don't get a choice whether or not it happened or not. You can try and affect it beforehand, but once it's occurred, the only thing you can do is mentally frame a positive spin on it and still take action in the same way. But like mentally frame like, Dude, I can look at this negatively or look at it as a learning experience. You only get one of two things, radiators and drains, baby. I got something here too about taking action. So I'll tell you like a specific example take this how I mean it, but we all have an ego. Everybody has an ego and anybody who says they don't have one, I'm like, dude, you definitely have one. No, here, I'll tell you like in a way in which I use, ⁓ you
Sam Finney: There you go.
Kevin Epp: however you want to call it, but using your ego to your advantage. So I want to stay in shape. Everyone wants to stay in shape, right? do this thing annually called Project Pineapple, which you know about, ⁓ Project Pineapple is like a big enduro, whatever. It's an annual thing. It's ton. Like last year I ran up and down Mount Adams and then ran around it. like... was 50 something miles, like 14,000 feet of vert. It was a big day, okay? Well, why am I bringing this back? I'm not talking about that, you know, doing that as like some physical accomplishment. What I'm saying is using ego to your advantage. I told people about Project Pineapple, okay? And every year I do one. I did one this past year, right? I tell people about Project Pineapple. Oh shoot, okay, now my family and friends know about this. So now it's like a put up or shut up, because if you don't do it, now you gotta come back, tail tuck between your legs, being like, Kev, why didn't you do that? Are you all talk? I'm dead serious, there's an element to this, right? So okay, also, I don't get to just wake up and do Project Pineapple, dude, because you don't just get to wake up and run 50 miles with like 14,000 feet of vert, right? So in that sense, you gotta train for it. Oh shoot, probably daily, probably vigorously. Right, so that's literally a like talk about taking action. is literally a forcing function in my life to keep me training is every year I will make up a Project Pineapple event and is such a grand event that you have to train all year long for it. And I don't plan on ever stopping it. anyways, talk about taking action. You can develop, or at least I do again in my very simple easy life. That's the way in which I it as ⁓ to my advantage, which is the ego is like, do not want to be embarrassed. So what should you do if you have something big that you're trying to do? I would recommend telling your friends and family about it because your ego will go to bed at night and be like, if everything else is fleeted, if you don't want to do it anymore, all that, at least your super selfish ego will say, dude, you told everybody you were gonna do this and you have to see it through. Maybe it works differently in other people, but to me, works. I use that to my advantage sometimes, or at least in things like that. Sounds corny, but I'm only being honest.
Sam Finney: No, I'm with you, think, well, and also I think I'm the same way. And I don't know if it was just like a team sport sort of mentality, you know, all through growing up or like being a part of different groups. But yeah, I think I'm a much better person when I'm a part of a group than when I'm not. And so just finding groups and finding other people to hold you accountable is a very, very powerful thing.
Kevin Epp: I mean, dude, that's what I said. Testosterone combined with group think can be an accelerant or a scary drug. And what I mean by that, dude, is like, and I were in the locker room together. Dude, that made us silently publicly competing with one another. When you're competing a young man, competing with a bunch of people in athletics, that does a lot for you. Again, there's a lot to be said for self-confidence. So that's what I mean by like, It can be an accelerant. It can take you a lot of places if you lean into that. it can also be a scary drug because young dudes do stupid stuff, So anyway, yeah, that's what I specifically meant in that one, dude. It's like being around others, the ego. Like that's how you can use ego to your advantage, yeah.
Sam Finney: ⁓ yeah. Well, so here, I'll tell you something I've been thinking about a little bit recently. I want to get your take on it. Talking about Project Pineapple and competitiveness is, you I think you and I both kind of trying to go in and playing Division 1 lacrosse, right? You've got to be competitive. You got to be looking around at what everybody else is doing and trying to be the best. And I think as I've gotten older in life, Maybe I've lost a little bit of the competitive edge, right? But I've started competing a lot more with myself and I've found that if I start looking around too much, right, that that starts detracting from where I am. And I think I just get a conflicting view of what I want success in my life to be, right? Because in my life, success isn't being a multimillionaire and having yachts and all kinds of this other stuff, right? Success is being able to Spent quite a bit of time with my kids, being able to help people out in a variety of aspects. I'd ⁓ curious like what your thoughts are on competition with others ⁓ competition with self. And I think Project Pineapple is more the competition with self, right? You're just something that sucks. And just showing yourself you can still do it. I'll let you jump in.
Kevin Epp: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have elements of both in me, right? I think all human beings to some degree are competitive, others, you know, more than, and then to some people it can be almost unhealthy, right? I mean, I think we all know people, it's unbearable to be around them. It's like, all right, dude, we're just at Jimmy John's, you know what I mean? you know, we don't have to, you know, whatever, I'm just making up a, but I think a couple things there. I think the brain has an incredible ability to convince you that you need more and to be unhappy, right? You know, I bring this up like 22 year old me, I've said this, and this is a mental frame I use. 22 year old me would look at my life right now and be like, again, I don't have millions of dollars, but dude, I have enough. would, 22 year old Kevin App would be like, dude, stop, like, whoa, whoa, like. ⁓ stop what we're doing, man. Why are we not five days a week right now, or three days a week? ⁓ I'd be like, well, you don't understand. ⁓ have the capability to do these things. I have an education. Well, ⁓ I go on LinkedIn, ⁓ the way, which is a cesspool, but it's like, I all these other people. So anyway, to get to the point, I think the brain does a great job of convincing us we need more and understanding that, hey, I have more in me and therefore I need to be doing more. And again, you can use that to your advantage because that can take you to great places. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. However, to keep you happy and keep your cup filled, using that mental frame of like, nope, I was equally as happy with like half as much 10 years ago, right? And keeping myself at that baseline. So I don't know. What was your question originally, Sam? I'm ranting now. What do you got? Was that even enough? Dude, I'm just.
Sam Finney: ⁓ no, you're good. I'm going to be honest. I don't remember the original question, but you talking about, you know, the happiness level. I think that my own travels, right? You mentioned traveling being very important for my own travels. That was one of the craziest thing, man. It was like going down to Mexico for some mission trips while I was in high school. And these folks, it was like a family of six people living in a house, literally the size of this room that I'm in now. And I think they had like chicken, some sort of meat for dinner, like once a week. Other than that, it was beans and rice. And it was wild, dude, because the amount of joy in their life was way higher than like ⁓ % of Americans. And they lived in a hundred square foot house that had cardboard for the roof. And they were just crushing life. Right? And so, yeah, I forget what you said that brought me to that, but I would say, no, that's awesome. And yeah, I don't know. I think happiness is a funny thing, Because I think if you try and chase happiness, you're not going to get it. But if you try and be accountable and do hard things, then all of a sudden fulfillment and happiness starts coming your way. I don't know if you got any thoughts on that.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, mean, yeah, I do. if you keep saying, dude, it just, you know, there's a phrase for every one of these. After a while, it sounds like we're just speaking in riddles, you know what I mean? But, truly, like, doesn't it? It's like, oh, like, I'm gonna say something right now, a la speaking in riddles, like, comparison is the thief of all joy, right? Right, so that'll, like, sometimes, I say this a lot.
Sam Finney: You
Kevin Epp: Like, I will accidentally, because for work I have to have Facebook so that I can list homes and get leads and all that stuff, okay? But the algorithm, right? The algorithm will find you, dude. And I say this a lot. I was wholly unaware that I had to be unsatisfied with my life till I logged into Facebook today and my brain has now convinced me. You know what I mean? Like, how many times has that occurred where you're like, dude, I'm...
Sam Finney: You you
Kevin Epp: I'm having a great day and like, wait, ⁓ and then like so and so, who which your brain subconsciously knows you're like, you know, maybe I could have whatever had that job or lived in that place or done that thing or go on that vacation, whatever, dude, whatever your brain convinces you it wants, it'll tell it will compare with that other person. And that's why I do that. Social media, I truly believe it's like hypnosis. That's how I view it now. We can get into that later. But like, ⁓ I think comparison, to get back to the point here, comparison is the thief of all joy. However, however, getting back to it, like competition and comparing yourself can also be used as like, all right, this is the benchmark. I'll give you like a real specific example. Initially, I wanted to hit a certain, so I have my property management company. wanted to hit a certain number of units, right? And I was like, when I hit,
Sam Finney: you
Kevin Epp: that amount of units, I'm like, I'm gonna be crushing it. Okay, this was two years ago. I surpassed that goal several months ago and I'm like, literally talking to you now, July 8th, 2025 and I'm like, yeah, not enough. And then I just talked to a bud who went to college with us who owns a property management company that's twice as big. And he's like, nah, man, those are kid numbers. You gotta like double it. And I'm like, whoa, again, suddenly I did not know I had to be so unfulfilled.
Sam Finney: you ⁓
Kevin Epp: But in the same way, if you use it in healthy manner and you're chipper throughout the whole process, you're enjoying it, hey, I enjoy the process of building something, building relationships and a business as a creative outlet or whatever you're doing, that's the healthy way in which, I a lot, it's a lot easier to say it than do it in practice, but that's my goal. is to be like, okay man, hey, this is gonna be a forever thing. I will always continually have this benchmark that I keep moving for myself, but I will mentally frame and remind myself as often as possible. Man, I had half as much 10 years ago, and I totally was like the happiest Kev ever too, you know I mean? And so, I don't know, recognizing, the brain plays crazy tricks on itself. It's probably why our civilization is where it's at today, and why we are everywhere in the world and do what
Sam Finney: you
Kevin Epp: So yeah.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, well, and I mean, I don't know, too, like, because I think a perspective in a way is comparison, right? So even going back to the I've known no suffering, it's like it's almost like that's comparison in a good way. Whereas there can be there can be beneficial ways to compare yourself with others and there can be harmful ways. And yeah, think maybe trying to like dig a little bit deeper into it, maybe the comparisons that bring you some sort of gratitude or thankfulness for where you're at are the beneficial ones. And then the, you know, the comparisons that bring you to a place of like you very, very aptly put, right? I had no idea that I needed to be this unfulfilled with life today. You know, think maybe those are the comparisons you throw in the trash, right?
Kevin Epp: Dude, isn't that true though? Dude, it's real! your point... Actually, sorry, I don't mean to cut you off. You wanna keep going on that?
Sam Finney: No, I think the only thing that I've started trying to reframe in my mind, right, is rather than making that comparison, right, like having some genuine joy for that other person. And think that that's where you can kind of get out of that mental loop and like joy and celebration for them. And I think is a good emotion that can give you energy to get there. rather than ⁓ feeling unfulfilled, feeling soft or useless or not productive.
Kevin Epp: Dude, I'm glad you said that. that's kind of the spirit of what I was getting at when I say, you know, when I was ⁓ I judged people for what they're into. And again, we all do this. I still do it. I'm just working on it, right? I've acknowledged it. ⁓ I say this, we all have that in us, passively judging. And what you're saying, right? mean, someone could at the same event and, you know, Two people will look at the same event differently, right? One could look at it in a positive manner or a negative manner. Let's talk about you going down to Mexico as an ⁓ right? The ugly American stereotype, and let's just say American, let's just talk about, let's forget any other aspect, just nationalities here. The American would be like, they're in ⁓ substandard blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? All this stuff. However, what you don't recognize, and you could look at it and say that's the negative way to look at it, right? Is you compared yourself to these other people and you took it as a means to think that you're superior. However, the positive way I think, or maybe rather the more humble way to look at it is, dude, it is by pure dumb luck you were born north of the border in an upper middle class neighborhood like me, right? And it is by pure luck that I wasn't. born as a Bangladeshi laborer or a Nepalese laborer, right? It is not by United States superiority or your own actions. And I don't know, man, it just kind of to your point, I think we're going to pass it kind of where my brain is, is I know for a fact, I will passively judge. mean, our brain does it because it's a survival instinct. We are creating biases and judging constantly, constantly, constantly. But you know, using that enlightened part of our brain to go like, hey, I accept what is going on. I have passed judgment on it. However, now I can like add a little bit more onto it, which is a positive spin about it or a negative spin about it. Again, I feel like I'm speaking in riddles, but I think everybody who might be listening to this or just you too, Sam, like you understand what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, it's just your mentality, but I embrace the fact that I'm gonna constantly judge things and judge people. It happens. don't get a choice, you know? brain doing that. It's just what you consciously then like, of yourself after that about. I don't know what the hell I'm saying, dude. ⁓
Sam Finney: Yeah, well, and I think probably just a combination or years and years of practice of seeing the good in life or you know, putting things into perspective that just over time it becomes habit and over time it becomes easier. then you just, you know, to go back to doc Z's thing, right? You're in these positive mental loops all the time. And it's a lot easier to stay in there. All right, I'm going to jump. I'm gonna jump to a couple others, because we got a few minutes left here. ⁓ So you talked about your relationship with Dev, and that being your superpower. Let me pull it up here, because I'd like to jump into that a little bit. But I'm curious why you said that felt like your greatest superpower was your relationship with your wife.
Kevin Epp: Hit me. Yeah, because it's the bedrock everything else man. You know if you, when you come home that should be like your sanctuary, you know what I mean? And you want to talk about pure dumb luck. It is by pure dumb luck her and I met one another. But for anybody who knows us we're probably a lot because she talks just as much as I do has just as much energy. But I consider that to be my superpower, you know? And you don't get to choose just how like, I know, I'm gonna start riffing here, but Superman didn't get to choose his superpowers, right? He just was born with them. In the same way that it was pure dumb luck that I met my wife and I get to come home and I have somebody who allows me to be 100 % me. I mean, I don't have to be anybody other than myself. She calls me out if I'm faking it. I love that, dude. And so that's what gives me the energy to be everything else I wanna be. Taking action on something, know, when we talk about taking action on something. How easy is it when I know that everything else is already fulfilled, which is like, you know, I have the love of somebody back home that just wants me to be me. ⁓ nobody else other than me, ⁓ right? Just wants me to be happy. ⁓ it sounds corny, but I mean, if you actually bring that to like, I don't know what I'm trying to say, It's, yeah, I don't know. That's what I consider to my superpower. Might have to edit out that last part, Sam. Sorry.
Sam Finney: No, you're good, You're good.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, it's good, dude. Yeah, I don't know. That's why I think of it.
Sam Finney: I think maybe one question would be like how the relationship develop or like ⁓ intentionality was there around it or was it just one of those things like you mentioned just dumb luck where it's like man it worked out and it's awesome.
Kevin Epp: Yeah. Yeah, dude, I'll tell you, I say this a lot. I say this a lot. I don't give people any relationship advice because this was all dumb luck. Again, I'm dead serious, man. It was pure dumb luck that we met each other, but we say it almost every morning, and if we don't say it every morning, it's just because we didn't have the time or one of us was busy or got up before the other one while they were still sleeping. ⁓ we get up almost every morning, man, and we're like, is this a dream? Is this real? Can you believe this is occurring? We are so lucky, man.
Sam Finney: You
Kevin Epp: We have it so good and we're like, yeah, we do like a little dance. Not actually, but I say this. ⁓ no, it does happen. no. ⁓ now to answer your question, we were very secure in ourselves and who we are before we met each other. We were not looking for each other. We actually said that when we initially met each other. ⁓ We were I'm not looking anything serious.
Sam Finney: I wouldn't be surprised.
Kevin Epp: If we actually joke about it now, like, what were we saying, dude? We were totally digging each other. But early on, we were like, hey, you know, just to let you know, I'm totally secure in what I'm doing. It's so bad, but it's so true. And I guess the little metaphor I'll say is my cup was full, right? This is gonna sound dorky, but it's real. My cup was full before I ever met my wife. I say, I did not know I could be double fisting. You know what I mean? ⁓
Sam Finney: you You
Kevin Epp: in the terminal like having two drinks there. And so in the same way it's like dude, her cup was full, didn't know that you could have twice as much happiness in your life. And I think it comes from both of us ⁓ in who we were, ⁓ looking for anything. And it was like a take it or leave it, you are only going to be adding to my life, neither one of us is gonna compromise. And telling you. It is by pure dumb luck that we spend enough time with each other where we're like, dude, we are pretty much the same person. and many ways, if we're not the same person in some aspects, we compliment one another. I'd say, especially on the self-confidence side, she ⁓ just gives me kind of that energy to go things that maybe I otherwise would not have. Yeah.
Sam Finney: Nice, no, that's awesome. ⁓ I wanted to take the opportunity, appreciate your analogy about double fisting the two full cups, but ⁓ I to jump into the one-liner you got in here about alcohol with a straight face, tell me how alcohol has improved your life. Which I can't it with a straight face. ⁓
Kevin Epp: Yeah, man. Dude, it's improved my life in many ways. mean, so, hey, we talked about this, know? Maybe ⁓ up the last minute, I was editing this, right? So it's like, man, I'm confident, ⁓ and lot of these blurbs, ⁓ they a lot to me now, and kind of like stream of consciousness. I didn't want to write a narrative, because life is more so like, kind of can just be bullet points, and that's kind of how my. mind went when I wrote this. So getting back to this, you know, I bet if you wanted to, you could pull it apart like, well, technically, I'm gonna think of a random example, like, well, technically, if you go to a networking event, and you have a little bit of alcohol, it might lubricate this, the social, you know, situation there, and it might help the conversation move along. Like, tell me how that doesn't help your life. Like, I got it, I got it, okay? But let's like get back to actually like, hey, take care of yourself. if you need some sort of, I'm gonna call it medication, if you need some sort of medication to actually interact with people, maybe we, before drinking alcohol, maybe try and work on that. Maybe that's just something that we're trying to use to help us, but how about we try and work on, man, I don't need anything, and I can carry a conversation with somebody, or I don't feel anxious. Maybe we do some therapy, or whatever, dude, like some meditation. So that's what I mean by that. think anybody would understand kind of the spirit of it. yeah, mean, anyone if you're...
Sam Finney: Yep. No, I appreciate it. honestly, I can't tell you that alcohol has improved my life, ⁓ regardless of what stage I was in, right? It's like, could done everything ⁓ it. And yeah, I think it's one of those things that's just like taken for granted in our society. Like, ⁓ yeah, you just go drink some beers, you know, every day or two or three, you know? And I don't think that necessary.
Kevin Epp: No, yeah. Yeah.
Sam Finney: And actually, yeah, I'm coming up on like almost a year of not drinking at all, Kev, and I've gone to bachelor parties and done all kinds of stuff. And dude, it's been way more fun without drinking, ⁓ in my opinion, right? So.
Kevin Epp: Yeah. It's cool. No, I agree. Like, how is it helping me? And in the same way, I say it, you know, ruthlessly divorce yourself from people who, you know, whatever, have all these unsultory qualities. In the same way, it's like alcohol. Take a hard look. Like, is this helping me? No. Okay. Yesterday was my last touch of it. And then, you know, ask that about many other things in your life. Again, I'm not perfect either, but like I try to. Yeah.
Sam Finney: That's all you can do, man. Good thing you're not perfect, Kev, otherwise I don't know if you'd be around to do this with me. ⁓
Kevin Epp: Yeah, yeah, who needs to be told that I'm not fervent? guess yeah, that's true. man.
Sam Finney: Let me see. All right, so before we wrap it up, I wanna hit up the Monarch butterflies here.
Kevin Epp: Yeah!
Sam Finney: So I was not expecting that to be the, you know, the last shebang of the speech, if I'm being honest. ⁓ ⁓ seen the monarch butterflies? Or is it just kind of the concept that you go through there of just like this faith?
Kevin Epp: No, dude, all right, listen to this. Yeah, yeah, you thought I'd put the taxes thing as the last one, didn't you? You're like, dude, every American, it is your duty to pay less tax. No, I'm joking. But dude, check it out. Yeah, all so check it out. ⁓ hanging out with my family. This was like two weeks ago, okay? And even in the moment, I was like.
Sam Finney: No, I do appreciate it.
Kevin Epp: That is the most profound thing I've heard in a while. Maybe it's because I was thinking too meta about it. They're like, Kev, chill out. It's just a bunch of butterflies. And I'm like, nah, man, there's something here. But really, I mean, if you think about it, okay, and I say it in there, but put it in a plain English instead of me reading it. These butterflies, and it's funny that they're butterflies, because it's like, you know, all this bravado and BS, but if you think about it, these butterflies just suddenly, like in Michigan. randomly and you can Google it by the way, it's way longer than this podcast how they found out about how they migrate is fascinating. But you know, one day just like one day all these butterflies are just like in Michigan or whatever. And they're like, yeah, dude, we're just gonna start flying south. And they're like, not as if someone is standing there. It's like, there's this place called Mexico. Like obviously they're not thinking about it or maybe they are we can't understand it. But what I'm getting at is this they have a sudden instinct to fly south, okay. And then they'll die, they will. And then another generation of butterflies will like wake up in like Omaha, Nebraska. And they'll be like, I don't know how we got here, but I suddenly still have the urge to keep flying at this heading. And we're just gonna keep going. And then all the butterflies arrive in Mexico. And this was a couple of weeks ago and I was apparently the only person at the table who had never heard of this. But the lesson I took from that and it's gonna... It's like, all right, Kev, quit trying to think so deeply, but I'm not kidding. In the moment, I was like, listen, no one, is no objective meaning that we have to life. Like there's no giant ledger right now that everybody's like, yep, like every, all 7 billion of us can point to and be like, that's the goal, right? There isn't, there's no objective meaning to life as we know it. And if you go to ⁓ one of those butterflies in like Omaha, Nebraska, It's like, what are you doing? And they're like, I have no idea. I'm flying south. That's what I do, right? And in the same way, it's like, ⁓ I'm just a human being. I have no objective purpose. Actually, know, zoom out a little bit. There actually could be. In the butterflies case, they're flying down to Mexico and it's a huge migration and it's a whole part of their life. In the same way in which any one of those like intermediate generations of butterflies, if you asked one of them like, hey, what's going on? They're like, I have no idea what's going on. you would ask Sam Finney and Kevin, like, hey, what's the purpose of life? Like, I have no idea. But it doesn't mean that there isn't one. in the same way as if Sam Finney tries to play somebody else in his life, right? ⁓ you try to be anyone other than yourself, it'd be the same thing as one of those butterflies waking up and being like, I don't feel like flying south anymore, even though it's in my instinct and it is ⁓ my purpose. I'm just gonna start flying a complete opposite direction other than what is in my nature and what feels right to me. And I don't know dude, as someone who talks a lot and has like a really extroverted personality, I can feel judgment from other people pretty easily now, now that I'm a little bit older and wiser. And it's like, you know, it used to bother me and I think to myself, no, you know what? I'm just being myself. I don't get to choose how my wires are crossed. And after a while, all you can be is yourself. Just fly. how your nature, how your personality and what's within your nature, brother. That's my rant, but that's what I meant by it, That's why it was my sign off, because that's all you can be.
Sam Finney: No, that's awesome. No, I appreciate that. think it's also, I mean, in a similar way to, like nobody definitely has all the answers and, I would argue that there's a big man upstairs watching out for us. But I think in an interesting way, right, I think it's a cool metaphor for just life in general, right, how you don't know what different setbacks, what different obstacles. are gonna present you with, cause like you said, right? Like the little kid doesn't get a sucker and it's the end of the world, you know? Or, you know, whoever it is, right? Me like failing rasps too, cause I was a dingus and you know, was going through some stuff I wasn't dealing with, right? Like looking back on it right after that, I was super pissed. But who knows, man? Maybe like that was the best thing that could have happened in my life. And there's honestly no way of knowing, right? There's no way of knowing whether it was just dumb chance that that's the way it played out. ⁓ the good Lord was watching out for me, he's like, no, Sam, you go to Ranger Regiment, you're gonna become an asshole and ⁓ bull on yourself and right, you're gonna become this terrible person. You know, I don't know. But ⁓ I think ⁓ applicable too, right? Where it's like, hey, we don't know what the setbacks in life are. We don't even know what the successes in life are leading towards. And we're going somewhere where we're not even sure yet. And that's part of the excitement, right? ⁓
Kevin Epp: Yeah, completely unwitting. All you can do is just ride it, dude, and just follow your gut. Again, I think so long as we follow our gut, it'll end up well. Or at least maybe that's just my way of coping with just what is the uncertainty of life. And so it's exactly to your point. It's like, man, there might be a higher purpose. I'm just going to ride this out. Can only be myself.
Sam Finney: All right, I got one more for ya, and then we'll kinda close it up with some questions about bucks and some other things, but appreciated the crushing yourself day in and day out as a form of self care.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, yeah, again, I'm not an Olympic athlete by any means, right? But however, however, however, no, ⁓ nowhere near some athletic person, but there is something to be said for putting in the work day in, day out. And whether that means you're performing at a high level or just being consistent at a high level, I think there's a lot to be said for that. And I that so much
Sam Finney: You want to expand on that? Right?
Kevin Epp: so much of society, ⁓ would say specifically, the privileged American society, and I say it in the beginning, right? There are hundreds of millions of people, excuse me, there are hundreds of millions of people like me, and it is sad if any of us think that our life is tough. ⁓ there is a, I think, not industry, but there's an entire narrative that caters nowadays to a mentality of like, yeah, you you've, you've had a tough day, you should take a day off, yeah, you've had it really hard the past couple years, ⁓ you should get a pass. And I've had my life very easy, but I would also say lean into the fact that, man, if crushing yourself day in, day out, whether that's working or physical exertion or having ⁓ hard conversations need to happen, what have you. That is a form of self care, it's called delayed gratification. And delayed gratification is great. And I think right now there is a narrative which I detest, which is, take a day off, that's okay, or cut yourself some slack. Let other people cut you slack, but not yourself. Let else tell you that they'll take it easy on you, and then sure, let them do that. But don't ever, or ⁓ at to the best of your ability, don't cut yourself slack, dude. because everybody else will make excuses for you, but you can't at the end of the day because the buck stops with you. that's kind what I meant with that, man. And truly, it has never been easier. I love it. I love it. Seriously. When people are like, my life is so hard. And again, I've had an easy life. I get it. But when people relative to me, so people who are like me, tell me how hard their life is, I'm like, this is great. It has never been easier to be successful because if people like them are saying things are tough. It's so, you know what mean? Like the possibilities are endless. So I don't know. That's what I meant by that,
Sam Finney: No, I think it goes to another part in here talking about the victim attitude, which that's always bothered the crap out of me. Right. And you talked a little bit about just like owning it, owning what you got. And I think that crushing yourself every day is just kind of another version of owning what you got. And it's like, Hey, I got this day to get better. I get this day to work hard. I get this day to laugh, you know, and have fun. Like that's all I can do is crush it. Right.
Kevin Epp: Thank God we had it in the first place, yeah.
Sam Finney: There you go. Cool. Well, I tell you what, Kev, we're gonna wrap it up. And I think you're the one who knows the quote a little bit better than me, but a lot of life's made up of the people you know and the books you read. So I was gonna ask you, know, who would be your hero? And then what would be your favorite book or most influential book that you've read?
Kevin Epp: Yeah, long list of people. I'll just, so I'll go, I'll do book first. So Man's Search for Meaning is probably the most impactful book for me. It opened me up to Stoicism and, you know, if not Stoicism, just a philosophy of life. And it's about, you know, a man who survives the Holocaust. And not just that, but he is a psychologist. So he kind of views it tells the story of the Holocaust, death camps, in addition to kind of the mental framing aspects and putting his life's work to test in it. amazing book. recommend everyone to read it, of course. And then it's gonna sound dorky, but ⁓ our college coach ⁓ in ⁓ college, Alberisi, me, you know. I'd probably say my adult life like biggest influence just because for me specifically that's type of, you know, the type of mentorship and the type of coaching I needed at that exact time in my life. And it was awesome. You know, didn't know that that was the kind of the coach that I needed at that time. Truth be told, he didn't recruit me all that much. It was, I was getting recruited by another guy and then I just know new coach Al Barisi was the head coach. And I'll finish by saying, you know, again, I never was any all-American or great person, but I do know what college athletics and a great program and a great coach did for me and my life. And that's what I recommend to anybody who's looking to play college athletics is I tell them, you know, you likely will not go pro, however, ⁓ strong program and a great coach can change your life, regardless of the record you have. and regardless of how you even perform on the team. And so that's what I encourage young kids to do with their parents if they're looking at college athletics is like to examine the coach and who that coach is and is that right for their kid, you know, anyway. Yeah.
Sam Finney: Nice, no that's awesome. right, so ⁓ other question and then we'll kind of wrap things up. And it's gonna be a tough one, ⁓ given your first sentence, right? But I'm curious, like what's a moment of trial or tribulation in your life? And you don't have to go super deep into the weeds, but how did you kind of get over the hump, know, start climbing back up the mountain, so to speak, after something or you were just in a little bit more of a rough spot than usual?
Kevin Epp: Yeah. Yeah, okay, so I'll tell you. this is gonna sound, whatever, you I don't care how I sound. This was kind of a ⁓ situation. It was easy, it's about money and jobs. It's about, got laid off. But it's something to be said for us. Essentially, you know, in the military, put another way, you're pretty much on welfare, right? You have a guaranteed paycheck, you're guaranteed getting promoted, right? So. Experiencing that through my entire adulthood up until I was 31 or 32 and then getting out, there's something to be said for like, this is the first time you're working in the free market, right? And companies go down. But your ego is a hell of a drug. And when you're for 10 years in the military and you were in special operations, all this stuff, you're like, yeah, I mean, I hear people get laid off. I mean, of course that's not. Not me, I'm obviously wiser than that. But you know, I'm saying that kinda as a joke. But yeah, the company I was with imploded about a year ago and they laid everybody off, to include me. ⁓ was pretty unexpected. And ⁓ that pretty trying because that's when I realized, know Kev, always wanted to be a business owner and it is of those things. It's time to put up or shut up. Because if not now, when? And that's when I decided tomorrow I'm gonna go all in on just a boring business and I'm gonna put my heart and soul into it. And so it was a trying time because is a thing. When you to make sure you can pay your mortgage and stuff, that's brass tacks, kind of like, okay, ⁓ this is right? But it also gave me purpose. Like I woke up that next morning, even that afternoon, my buddy was actually with me in the car when I got laid off. I remember I purposefully like 30 minutes after I got laid off, we were having lunch and I told him, I was like, I will look back at this as the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm glad he was there to like know that occurred and me say it. But I literally said that in the moment. And so super shitty, honestly, for a couple months, it was like, you know, tight, but I mean, I'm a year out of it, dug myself out of the hole. I'm not, you know, Elon Musk by any means, but that's how I was able to get out of it, is just like, hey, this is either failure or an opportunity. I chose to think of it as an opportunity. It's not as if I haven't reached the end, like the jury's still out whether or not this was a success, but I'm really happy things are successful. yeah, but just something that comes to top of mind when you ask me that question. I'm sure I could think of some others too.
Sam Finney: No, I appreciate it. think that's a great example of like a lot of the mindset stuff we were talking about earlier too. And actually putting it into practice. Plus you're such a positive dude, I wasn't sure I was gonna get anything out of you anyways. ⁓
Kevin Epp: Yeah. mean again, you can be positive all day and put a smile on doesn't mean bad stuff won't happen. You know what mean? But yeah, yeah
Sam Finney: That's fair. Awesome, dude. Well, I appreciate your time, Kev. It was a pleasure. yeah, dude, we'll wrap it up. think, yeah, we'll get, Coach A on here in not too long too. So we'll get to have some combos there. All right, Kev. See ya.
Kevin Epp: You're the man. Yeah, I appreciate you Sam. Yeah, you rock Sam. Thanks, brother. Yep.